From <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Mon Feb 6 16:59:31 1995 Received: from netaxs.com (root@netaxs.com [198.69.186.1]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA29315 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:59:31 -0500 Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [128.205.2.1]) by netaxs.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA04299 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 16:59:19 -0500 Message-Id: <199502062159.QAA04299@netaxs.com> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 3002; Mon, 06 Feb 95 16:58:05 EST Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9048; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 12:39:27 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 12:39:22 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8a)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9402" To: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 1994 22:28:56 +22311516 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles Trella Subject: Re: More info?? In-Reply-To: <9401220149.AA05921@harrier.liunet.edu> Saw a post asking about Timberline Geodesics recently and thought I would add a few comments. I too checked out Timberline and I was most intrigued. In checking further however, (ie calling owners) one of the advantages, (low frame construction costs) seemed to be more than offset by interior finnishing costs. There is the reason why most structures are designed with 90 deg. angles I would imagine. The labor cost to make all the custom cuts, wallboard, flooring, etc.. is just too high. This wipes out any economic benifit from domes it seems to me. I am no design or construction pro however. Thoughts? Chuck Trella ctrella@eagle.liunet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 09:45:53 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brewer Eddy Subject: Re: More info?? > Saw a post asking about Timberline Geodesics recently and thought I would > add a few comments. > > I too checked out Timberline and I was most intrigued. In checking > further however, (ie calling owners) one of the advantages, (low frame > construction costs) seemed to be more than offset by interior finnishing > costs. There is the reason why most structures are designed with 90 deg. > angles I would imagine. The labor cost to make all the custom cuts, > wallboard, flooring, etc.. is just too high. This wipes out any economic > benifit from domes it seems to me. I am no design or construction pro > however. Thoughts? (Contractors WILL charge LOTS for ANY non-standard thingies! Even ONE curved wall in a regular house! Think of the Sidney Opera House!!) I see your point, and I have thought about it. But my idea of domes was always different. Yah,yah, houses are "supposed" to have "rooms", but... my idea (having seen several older domes, like "Drop City", an old hippie commune in southern Colorado, most did NOT HAVE ROOMS!), was to enclose a big space, then put a ... series of lofts in it for different "places" within... Now domes are round and concave, round surfaces DO focus sound. So doing this for more than two people who really like/get along with eachother could be a problem (the Red Rockets Commune (about 3 DOZEN strong) ran into this in their BIG dome (kids and not wanting to make love till EVERYONE was asleep (fewer kids comin, huh??)). BUT my dream is STILL to have two large intersecting domes as a home, with platforms (and bridges (large for me and my partner-small for our cats, who would LOVE THIS!!!!). Contained spaces for noise (shop, music room, bath(?)). All this to revel in the different-ness of a dome. Your concern is well founded, but I think their point is that the outside costs are so much less that even the increased interior finish costs do NOT make the total cost as high as a standard house. Talking with some of their "happy customers" might get us some real numbers to think about... And let us NOT forget to consider how fancy the interiors created are!! Real walnut panelling could make a privy an expensive structure! (Marble seats are OUT! Too %^& COLD!)... I still want one!!! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> D. Brewer Eddy College of William and Mary dbeddy@mail.wm.edu (generic, good!) Computer Center, Jones Hall Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795 It is important that students bring a certain ragamuffin barefoot irreverence to their studies; they are here not to worship what is known, but to question it. -Jacob Bronowski (in Ascent of Man 1975) <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 13:13:46 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Cristopher J. Fearnley" Subject: Cheap Domes [was Re: More info??] In-Reply-To: ; from "Charles Trella" at Feb 3, 94 10:28 pm > > Saw a post asking about Timberline Geodesics recently and thought I would > add a few comments. > > I too checked out Timberline and I was most intrigued. In checking > further however, (ie calling owners) one of the advantages, (low frame > construction costs) seemed to be more than offset by interior finnishing > costs. There is the reason why most structures are designed with 90 deg. > angles I would imagine. The labor cost to make all the custom cuts, > wallboard, flooring, etc.. is just too high. This wipes out any economic > benifit from domes it seems to me. I am no design or construction pro > however. Thoughts? I think the chief advantages to domes comes from the ease with which they can be mass-produced. If they were mass-produced, one would only need to custom- build the furnature once. Custom domes are the stuff of the very wealthy. Right now "box" houses are also the stuff of the wealthy. With the earthquakes, flooding &etc of recent years, it may be essential to start the mass-produced dome industry. There is (unfortunately) a lot of demand for housing right now and no realistic way of meeting that demand with "dark ages" housing technology. One the same theme, does anyone know if octet trusses would hold up better as highway bridges than the the apparently quite flimsy "towers" that toppeled in L.A.'s latest (smallish) quake? > > Chuck Trella > ctrella@eagle.liunet.edu > Chris Fearnley cpp.pha.pa.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 16:17:35 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tom Dosemagen Subject: Re: More info?? I have constructed a 44 foot diameter dome. I purhased the dome from Natural Spaces and all of the exterior and interior panels were included in my package, so I didn't have to cut any triangles. In the rest of the dome there many cuts that weren't 90 degrees, but the challenge wasn't that great and believe it not there wasn't that much material waste. The pros of living in a dome far out weigh the cons of construction. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Feb 1994 19:54:02 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: greystroke@DELPHI.COM Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Subject: Bucky Question Hi. I am a highschool chemistry student and I am just beginning to do a semester paper on the uses of bucky balls (or potential uses in the future). Would anyone like to offer what they feel the greatest uses are/will be so that I have a good base to start off of? Thank you for your help. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 00:35:36 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "" Subject: Re: Bucky Question Much of what I've seen so far has been tilted towards C-60's peculiarly large capacity internal space - for instance, researching its use as a carrier for other molecules or as a molecular filter material. Something recently in the news was a test-tube finding that C-60 fits into a protein binding site on the HIV virus, thus preventing replication. Personally, I believe the most significant effects will be found by examining the spin-off research and findings... the fact that C-60 exists at all seems to have been quite a shock to the world. What else is out there that is being dismissed out of a sense of complacency? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 00:50:36 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "" Subject: Re: Cheap Domes The main reason that traditional framed housing is relatively cheap is because the industrial infrastructure supporting it has matured and evolved over hundreds of years; with respect to critics of 'normal' housing, rectilinear frame/ply sheathed structures are served by a very efficient manufacturing and service industry. This is not to make a suggestion that domes are 'bad' or boxes are 'good', just to recognize that rectilinear structures have a couple of thousand years up on other designs. To put it another way, the IBM RS-6000 server at work is definitivly better design for a multi-user computer than my Intel-386 AT I'm typing on now, but the critical mass of money, effort, knowledge, and people surrounding the PC based architecture make it a no-brainer question as to which one is more affordable for my home desk (the 386 ;-) That's why IBM seems to want to turn the RS-6000 into a PC type product (the Power PC). But I digress. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 15:27:20 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: scimatec5@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU Organization: University of Toledo Subject: Re: Bucky Question In article <19940204.19540256.greystroke@delphi.com>, greystroke@delphi.com writes: > Hi. I am a highschool chemistry student and I am just beginning to do a > semester paper on the uses of bucky balls (or potential uses in the future). > Would anyone like to offer what they feel the greatest uses are/will be so that > I have a good base to start off of? > > Thank you for your help. I've heard of Bucky balls and know their shape, but what are they made out of? Steve Mather ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 17:10:37 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David W. Prince" Subject: Re: Cheap Domes Unsubscribe please thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 1994 22:11:54 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "" Subject: Re: Bucky Question Buckyballs are more formerly known as the most recently discovered allotrope of the element carbon, part of a family of molecules known as Buckminsterfullerenes. Carbon-60 is the most stable of the balls, though they come in configurations from Carbon-28 to Carbon-??? - I'm not sure of the exact numbers. The research into them seems to analogue Bucky's own delving into geodesics, in that it is leading into discussions of tube and layered configurations ("Buckytubes"). It is the recognition of the generalized design principle that is most significant. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 13:34:18 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: sally bujold Subject: Re: housekeeping In-Reply-To: <199402060334.AA22717@ua.d.umn.edu> dear Bucky fans please unsubscribe me, I seen to be unable to do so for myself using the listserv///bitnet instructions sorry to inconvenience S ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Feb 1994 17:41:59 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: 4D Solutions Subject: BuckyBalls > Hi. I am a highschool chemistry student and I am > just beginning to do a semester paper on the uses of > bucky balls (or potential uses in the future). > Would anyone like to offer what they feel the greatest uses > be/will be so that I have a good base to start off off? > > Thank you for your help. Buckyballs are made of pure carbon. They have interesting optical properties. A helmet visor treated with fullerene will instantly block an incoming laser beam -- the stronger the ray, the faster the face glass turns dark (cooler than those "photosensitive" sunglasses). This same property may make fullerene an ingredient in optical switching circuitry, which uses light traveling in thin fibers, in place of electricity. Fullerene is quite reactive and can be used as a building block in other structures. In some crystal formations, doped with potassium for example, it conducts electricity with no resistance (is a superconductor). No one knows yet if buckytubes (super fine fillaments made of the same hexagonal "chickenwire" carbon mesh) are superconducting yet. Fullerene may prove important in certain pharmacuticals because of its ability to form compounds shaped in ways designed to block other chemical reactions e.g. the AIDS reactions. Because fullerene is still extremely time-consuming to collect in even tiny amounts, the biggest barrier to *any* commercial applications remains its expense and unavailability in quantity. Until larger quantities are available, a great many of its perhaps most important properties will remain unknown, since just a gram or two of the stuff (a year's supply in most labs) is not enough for many critical experiments. In the meantime, fullerene is giving organic chemistry many exciting theoretical insights. A lot of non-commercial experiments are helping chemists figure out the fine points of their atomic and molecular models. Fullerene is one of the best things to happen to chemistr y for a long time and will interest chemists for years to come, regardless if its practical applications. I attended the International Colloquium on Fullerene in Santa Barbara in July of last year, and also wrote a booklet that comes with a little make-it-yourself buckyball model produced by Mondotronics (a science-toy company). The colloquim is also written up by me in the most recent issue of TrimTab. If you'd like to follow up on these references, send me some email at: pdx4d@igc.apc.org -- Kirby Urner ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 08:55:46 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Bruce T. Lael" Subject: Re: Bucky Question I don't have much direct experience with Bucky Balls, but I've seen reference to their applications in chemistry, and recently in AIDS research. If you haven't already, contact the Buckminster Fuller Institute 1743 S. La Cienega Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90035 310-837-7710 They can get you lots of resource information and modelling kits. Their newsletter, the Trimtab Bulletin has an article in the Fall/Winter 93 edition about research present and future around Fullerenes. Good Luck! Bruce Lael (lael@venus.rcc.com) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Feb 1994 15:36:09 -0500 Reply-To: ab919@leo.nmc.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ted A. Hunt" Subject: Re: Bucky Question >I've heard of Bucky balls and know their shape, but what are they made >out of? > Steve Mather Carbon. You might like to see an article in Science News sometime in the past few years that dealt with this subject. Wish I could narrow down the time it was published, but it will be well worth your search. Maybe someone else reading this knows offhand what issue it was. I do remember it was the cover story that week. -- Ted A. Hunt East Lansing, MI USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Feb 1994 13:30:01 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Hilve A. Firek" Subject: recycling I am doing an article for _Louisiana Builder_ on recycling in the construction process (material made from recycled products, recylcling on the job site....) If anyone would like to share some insights, please e-mail me privately. Many thanks. (I especially need sources in Louisiana or the Deep South). -- Hilve Firek, hfirek@vdoe386.vak12ed.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Feb 1994 07:32:56 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Ross Keatinge Organization: Public Access Internet, Auckland New Zealand Subject: Unemployment I would like to hear people's thoughts on a subject which may or may not be suitable for this newsgroup / mailing list. If its considered to be in the wrong group I'll happily take it elsewhere but I feel it is quite relevant to Bucky's ideas, especially those expressed in Critical Path. I recently read an article in an Australian Electronics magazine where the author is discussing unemployment, redundancies etc and the general topic of technology doing the work previously done by people. Like the author of this article, I am very much in favour of using technology to do more with less but am struggling to come up with an answer to the question of just what DOES happen to the factory worker replaced by a robot or the office clerk replaced by a computer ? I never quite understood the practicalities of what Bucky said on the subject in Critical path. Seems to me that we need some means of sharing wealth but the method is by no means obvious. Regards... Ross Keatinge icosa@iconz.co.nz Auckland New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 04:20:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: scimatec5@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU Organization: University of Toledo Subject: Re: Bucky Question In article <9402072036.AA11557@leo.nmc.edu>, "Ted A. Hunt" writes: >>I've heard of Bucky balls and know their shape, but what are they made >>out of? >> Steve Mather > > > Carbon. > > You might like to see an article in Science News sometime in the past few > years that dealt with this subject. Wish I could narrow down the time it > was published, but it will be well worth your search. Maybe someone else > reading this knows offhand what issue it was. I do remember it was the > cover story that week. Hmmm, I know that at least one type of Buckminsterfullerine (or think I read) is found naturally (C-60 I think.) I wondered how they are made? Steve Mather ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Feb 1994 16:39:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David W. Prince" Subject: Re: Bucky Question UNSUBSCRIBE. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Feb 1994 20:48:09 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Cristopher J. Fearnley" Subject: Re: Unemployment In-Reply-To: ; from "Ross Keatinge" at Feb 11, 94 7:32 am > > I would like to hear people's thoughts on a subject which may > or may not be suitable for this newsgroup / mailing list. If > its considered to be in the wrong group I'll happily take it > elsewhere but I feel it is quite relevant to Bucky's ideas, > especially those expressed in Critical Path. > > I recently read an article in an Australian Electronics > magazine where the author is discussing unemployment, > redundancies etc and the general topic of technology doing the > work previously done by people. > > Like the author of this article, I am very much in favour of > using technology to do more with less but am struggling to > come up with an answer to the question of just what DOES > happen to the factory worker replaced by a robot or the office > clerk replaced by a computer ? I think it depends upon what you think the purpose of employment is. I think that the goal of a job is to eliminate that job. Therefore, from my perspective unemployment should be a virtue and the economy had better learn to appreciate and value unemployment. [This may be a good argument for government sponsored "support" for the unemployed. But something is clearly needed because in the current economy Fuller's profesy of "more with less" is being conducted with a vengence: even highly skilled people are finding their jobs and departments eliminated at alarming high frequencies.] Well, this is all well and good for the policy makers. But what is the individual to do in an economy that obeys Fuller's laws of empheralization, but does not (at this point) support the "victims" of the modern economy. I think this is where another Fuller principle comes in: What is the purpose of humans in Universe? "To gather information and to solve problems." So it would behoove the individual to aggressively take up the task of becoming a general problem-solver (say during your next period of unemployment ). Already it is clear the the economy does not really suport skills or experience; it seems that only can-do problem-solving is rewarded. OK, but what happens when our problem-solver finishes their job? Well, they go onto solve even more difficult problems. I think Fuller called this utopia. [Though the displaced factory worker or office clerk may disapprove. It is sad but the Universe seems to work the way it works and it does not seem to support certain jobs or skills.] > > I never quite understood the practicalities of what Bucky > said on the subject in Critical path. > > Seems to me that we need some means of sharing wealth but the method > is by no means obvious. Perhaps once everyone becomes a problem-solver, it will be clear how to "share the wealth" - or maybe we won't have to? > > > Regards... > > Ross Keatinge icosa@iconz.co.nz > Auckland > New Zealand > Chris Fearnley cfearnl@cpp.pha.pa.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 15:56:35 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DAMICO@GELMAN.CIRC.GWU.EDU Subject: Re: Energy Generation fron the Sea (fwd) Regarding sea power generation, Bucky invented two (one was an improvement over the other) power generating devices that were also designed to create safe harbor where there is none. Check out Inventions: the Patented works of RBF. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Feb 1994 19:45:35 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Unemployment >> On Sun, 13 Feb 1994 20:48:09 EST, >> "Cristopher J. Fearnley" said: Cris> I think it depends upon what you think the purpose of employment is. The only purpose of any real job in a free market is to fill an unfilled want or need by the market. Cris> I think that the goal of a job is to eliminate that job. If you mean streamline the job, eliminate redundancies, and remove obstacles from the path of a worker trying to excel, I agree. The only way you can eliminate a job is to eliminate the unfilled want or need which led to the creation of that job in the first place. Cris> Therefore, from my perspective unemployment should be a virtue and the Cris> economy had better learn to appreciate and value unemployment. You're making the large (and unwarranted) assumption that every unemployed person is unemployed because he or she was so fearsomely effective that the productive job they USED to do is no longer necessary. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 11:07:18 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Cristopher J. Fearnley" Subject: Re: Unemployment In-Reply-To: ; from "Contr Karl Vogel" at Feb 14, 94 7:45 pm > > >> On Sun, 13 Feb 1994 20:48:09 EST, > >> "Cristopher J. Fearnley" said: > > Cris> I think it depends upon what you think the purpose of employment is. > > The only purpose of any real job in a free market is to fill an > unfilled want or need by the market. Well, perhaps I don't subscribe to this view of the free market (not being an economist I wouldn't want to delve into a discussion on what the free market REALLY is). I think the purpose of a job is to do something that one feels needs to be done. Sometimes a person (known as the employer) asserts that X needs to be done and that they are willing to pay someone to do this task. (So the task that one does may not have come from within.) Sometimes I volunteer to do a task that I feel is so important to hamanity that I can't wait for others to take up that task. I guess what I'm saying is that the "unfilled want or need [of] the market" is determined by individuals based on their values which to me does not seem like "market forces." > > Cris> I think that the goal of a job is to eliminate that job. > > If you mean streamline the job, eliminate redundancies, and remove > obstacles from the path of a worker trying to excel, I agree. The > only way you can eliminate a job is to eliminate the unfilled want or > need which led to the creation of that job in the first place. But if one streamlines 10 jobs and eliminates their redundancies, we may only need eight employees when before we needed 10. So I see the goal of the economy is to eliminate several jobs (not necessarily ALL jobs). Sometimes we automate a job and eliminate hundreds of workers. I think the economy should reward those workers for getting us by until a better way was found which, in fact, served to eliminate their job. Also, the impact of values on economics is important. I mean a decade ago building many nuclear bombs was highly stimulating to the economy (in fact it seems to have caused a brief economic boom). Now we realize that we don't need such a big military and illions of workers are jobless. I value this process of eliminating jobs, but I feel awful that our economy is so rude and harsh to those whose service to humanity is so rudely terminated by a pink slip. > Cris> Therefore, from my perspective unemployment should be a virtue and th > Cris> economy had better learn to appreciate and value unemployment. > > You're making the large (and unwarranted) assumption that every > unemployed person is unemployed because he or she was so fearsomely > effective that the productive job they USED to do is no longer necessary . In a way yes that is what I'm saying. But I don't mean to imply that the person sigle-handedly did something so wonderful that their job became unnecessary. Often they simply helped keep the world working while one of the scientist-artists of the world took it upon themselves to make the world a better place (e.g., by eliminating drudgery in factory work by automation) which as a side effect eliminates Joe's job. But if Joe hadn't provided his service to humanity by providing us with steel for all these years, we never would have made to the point were his steel-making services were taken over by recycling and automation. We should thank Joe but eliminate his job too. > > -- > Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] > Chris Fearnley cfearnl@cpp.pha.pa.us ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 01:45:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Frank DeMarco Organization: InfiNet Subject: !+?]lp?P E.F. Schumacher had important things to say on the subject, not least the insight that the cost of a workplace was an important factor. If it takes $500,000 in equipment to begin farming (as an example) then clearly the entry-barrier is far higher than it was in the days when the equipment needed (at a lower level of technical sophistication) might cost $6,000 total. This is about the amount he said it cost to begin farming with horses in England in the 30s, if I remember right. But more central was his insight that underlying our economics are certain (often unrecognized) *metaphysical* beliefs, not least of them that work is bad, rather than that work is fulfilling. His books, "A Guide For The Perplexed" and "Small Is Beautiful: Economics as if people mattered" are splendid. I wonder: Does anyone know if Bucky every expressed an opinion about Fritz Schumacher? Frank DeMarco -- Hampton Roads Publishing Company, 891 Norfolk Square, Norfolk VA 23502 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 06:57:18 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Craig Anderson Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc. Subject: Geodesic models I'd like to hear about geodesic models that people have built. Are kits available for them? Was the model useful, fun, inspirational? Please post a report to this thread. I am working on a paper foldup and glue geodesic sphere. After studying the Basic Desequilibrium 120 LCD Spherical Triangle (Fig. 901.03 of Synergetics) I am determined to foldup and glue 120 of these triangles into a sphere. Cheers, Craig Anderson w) 303.825.8183 craig@c4.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 07:14:08 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Craig Anderson Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc. Subject: omnirational accounting system (420.02) In Synergetics paragraph 420.02 I read: The isotropic vector matrix is four-dimensional and 60-degree-coordinated. It provides an omnirational accounting system ... The isotropic vector matrix demonstrates the ability ... to accommodate the structuring of any shape. This intrigues me. Has this proven to be useful to people? Can anyone supply references for further study? Cheers, Craig Anderson 303.825.8183 craig@c4.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 11:22:27 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tom Dosemagen Subject: Re: Geodesic models Try writing to A.G.S. at 2111 Southwest 31st Ave. in Pembroke Park, FL 33009 and ask for 1.2.3.4. Sphere. It's a kit for making 21" Goedesic Sphere models. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 13:50:09 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David W. Prince" Subject: Re: Geodesic models - PLEASE UNSUB ME!! In-Reply-To: <199402181741.MAA12526@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu> from "Tom Dosemagen" at Feb 18, 94 11:22:27 am How do I unsubscribe from this group? I have requested it twice before and it just keeps on coming. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE me. Thanks. JP ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Feb 1994 21:30:04 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: scimatec5@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU Organization: University of Toledo Subject: Re: omnirational accounting system (420.02) In article , c4craig@csn.org (Craig Anderson) writes: > In Synergetics paragraph 420.02 I read: > > The isotropic vector matrix is four-dimensional and 60-degree-coordinated. > It provides an omnirational accounting system ... The isotropic vector > matrix demonstrates the ability ... to accommodate the structuring of > any shape. > > This intrigues me. Has this proven to be useful to people? Can anyone > supply references for further study? Well, first of all I'd like to apologize for my editor. I can't delete anything. The ceilings at a local mall are a variation on IVM, but I don't think it was intentional. They took the octahedrons, split them in half and placed tetrahedrons in between. Steve Mather z ake the h sionalerWeel > > Cheers, > Craig Anderson > 303.825.8183 > craig@c4.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Feb 1994 22:00:47 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: 4D Solutions Subject: Unemployment I think the missing puzzle piece vis-a-vis automation & unemployment in Fuller's thinking is in Education Automation, the subtitle of which is Freeing the Scholar to Return to Her Studies (or something like that). The goal is not to render humans useless but to free them to perform metaphysical tasks with their minds. Setting up an economics to give people "tenure" in a more metaphysically driven economy does not seem all that far-fetched, given the information superhighway and all that rot. Digital media are inherently copiable without limit, giving everyone access to tremendous cultural riches. But making it expensive by making it scarce is still the only way we can figure to "earn a living." So the FBI will continue warning us not to copy videos etc. But, in principle, we have what it takes, metaphysical resource wise, to raise living standards in a Global University context. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Feb 1994 23:26:49 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Unemployment >> On Sat, 19 Feb 1994 22:00:47 -0800, >> Kirby said: K> Digital media are inherently copiable without limit, giving everyone K> access to tremendous cultural riches. But making it expensive by making K> it scarce is still the only way we can figure to "earn a living." So the K> FBI will continue warning us not to copy videos etc. Like it or not, the price system is still the best way to determine what people actually value as opposed to what they SAY they value. There are certain things I need (food, clothing) and other things I want (entertainment, etc.), and the only way to peacefully get those things is for me to trade something I have for what I want. If all I have to trade is my skill at creating software, and if someone else decides that the software I create should be "free", then I've just been deprived of my livelihood. If I wish to write a program and not charge for its use, that's my perogative. That doesn't mean the program is free; it only means that I've decided NOT to pass the cost in time and effort onto anyone else. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 10:44:19 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Cristopher J. Fearnley" Subject: Re: Unemployment In-Reply-To: ; from "Contr Karl Vogel" at Feb 20, 94 11:26 pm > > >> On Sat, 19 Feb 1994 22:00:47 -0800, > >> Kirby said: > > K> Digital media are inherently copiable without limit, giving everyone > K> access to tremendous cultural riches. But making it expensive by making > K> it scarce is still the only way we can figure to "earn a living." So the > K> FBI will continue warning us not to copy videos etc. > > Like it or not, the price system is still the best way to determine what > people actually value as opposed to what they SAY they value. There are > certain things I need (food, clothing) and other things I want > (entertainment, etc.), and the only way to peacefully get those things is > for me to trade something I have for what I want. > > If all I have to trade is my skill at creating software, and if someone > else decides that the software I create should be "free", then I've just > been deprived of my livelihood. If I wish to write a program and not > charge for its use, that's my perogative. That doesn't mean the program > is free; it only means that I've decided NOT to pass the cost in time and > effort onto anyone else. This is an interesting example given what you said earlier "the price system is still the best way to determine what people actually value as opposed to what they SAY they value." I mean I've recently gotten involved with free software (namely, Linux) and I find that it is clear that the developers of Linux (Linux Torvalds & co.) clearly show by their efforts and products that they value functionality and freedom over the price system (in Bucky's terminology, they are the scientist-artists upon whose legs the rest of society stands tall). Perhaps a clearer indication of peoples values is the activity of the newsgroups they frequent vs. what market studies indicate. Bucky pointed out that all of us are the benificiaries of the excellent skills and productive activites of our now deceased forbears. Similar to the programmers you mentioned, we have the illions of deceaced humans who are no longer compensted for their continuing contibution to society. The "price" system is notoriously inadequate to express these realities of the world in which we live. I actually believe that more and more the economy is moving toward a crisis in which it becomes evident that reality and the economy are incompatible. What we are doing as a society is creating the alternative structure that will replace the current (ridiculous) economic structure to which we are tethered. This means that when the final crisis comes, we will probably not read about it in the media because the replacement will already be in place (spontaneously) and so it will not be a subject of "debate" by our national governments. > > -- > Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] > Chris Fearnley cpp.pha.pa.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Feb 1994 14:34:55 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Bruce T. Lael" Subject: Re: Geodesic models - PLEASE UNSUB ME!! To the un-subcribers: send the command SIGNOFF GEODESIC as the only body of a message to: listserv@ubvm.bitnet (Bitnet) **or** listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu (I-net) This should get you off of the list. I'd do it for you, but I can't tell from t he header who the right person is. If this doesn't work, try it with you subscription name after the command (same line). Any such commands must go to the LISTSERV address, not to GEODESIC. Happy Trails... Bruce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 13:04:40 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Unemployment In a previous message, I said that the price system is still the best way to determine what people really value as opposed to what they SAY they value. I mentioned that software I write isn't free; it's just that I've decided not to pass the cost onto the user. >> On Mon, 21 Feb 1994 10:44:19 EST, >> "Cristopher J. Fearnley" replied: C> I've recently gotten involved with free software (namely, Linux) and I C> find that it is clear that the developers of Linux (Linux Torvalds & co.) C> clearly show by their efforts and products that they value functionality C> and freedom over the price system (in Bucky's terminology, they are the C> scientist-artists upon whose legs the rest of society stands tall). I have nothing but respect for Mr. Torvalds and people like him; I'd be flattered as hell if the Free Software Foundation wanted to distribute something I wrote, and I've benefitted tremendously from the software available on the net. I'm writing this message on a freely-available editor, and I run under a freely-available shell every day. However, there's a big difference between Mr. Torvalds wishing to make Linux freely available, and someone else deciding to make Linux freely available without consulting him first. C> Bucky pointed out that all of us are the benificiaries of the excellent C> skills and productive activites of our now deceased forbears. And I hope when I die I leave something behind for those who follow. You mentioned the scientist-artists on whose legs the rest of society stands tall, and I completely agree. However, those scientist-artists don't bother producing anything if they're treated as a means to someone else's ends, and this WILL happen under any scheme of wealth redistribution. C> Similar to the programmers you mentioned, we have the millions of C> deceaced humans who are no longer compensated for their continuing C> contibution to society. How are you planning on compensating me after I die? C> What we are doing as a society is creating the alternative structure that C> will replace the current (ridiculous) economic structure to which we are C> tethered. Actually, I think the net is providing a great equalizer against the likes of MicroSoft, etc. Slowly but surely, people are going to figure out that the stuff they get for free is often of vastly superior quality to the stuff provided by the companies. I have no sympathy for a company that can't compete on that basis. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] [The United States] can't be so fixed on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- President William Clinton, March 1, 1993 during a press conference in Piscataway, NJ source: Boston Globe, 3/2/93, page 3 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 16:24:00 LCL Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Booker Subject: Re[2]: Unemployment On 2/22/94 Karl Vogel wrote: >Actually, I think the net is providing a great equalizer against the likes >of MicroSoft, etc. Slowly but surely, people are going to figure out >that the stuff they get for free is often of vastly superior quality to >the stuff provided by the companies. I have no sympathy for a company >that can't compete on that basis. I work for a company that manufactures and sells software development tools. Some of my competition is freeware, and while some people will make an initial decision to use a certain tool because it can be obtained for a token media charge, these same people will often suffer later on when they need to add support for a new device or operating system version, or need to get support to resolve another technical issue. I speak to companies all the time who have suffered financialy because they made an initial chioce based on the "free is a very good price" philosophy. One of the reasons all companies need to generate a certain amount of profit is so that revenue can be put back into research and development, and post sales support. In this way, that company can continue to provide products that people will want to buy. When a company produces a product that people do not want to buy the health of the company suffers, and unless financial assistance is found can continue into a nose dive from which recovery would be difficult. I for one am a supporter of freeware, I would not however like to base the financial future of my company, or any programmer's job on such a tool. Gary_Booker@Intersolv.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 09:23:52 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brewer Eddy Subject: Re: Latest DOME magazine Anyone seen the latest issue. Best one in a while to my eyes! Rich in ideas/pictures/inspiration! And here I am, just putting up a 140 sqft icosa as a garden shed.... > [The United States] can't be so fixed on our desire to preserve the rights > of ordinary Americans... > -- President William Clinton, March 1, 1993 during a press conference in > Piscataway, NJ source: Boston Globe, 3/2/93, page 3 Boy, I hope the context was important, because (out of context) this seems bad... <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> D. Brewer Eddy College of William and Mary dbeddy@mail.wm.edu (generic, good!) Computer Center, Jones Hall Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795 Williamsburg, from the indian for "most storms miss us..." <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 11:40:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Unemployment In a previous message, I mentioned the benefits of free software. >> On Tue, 22 Feb 1994 16:24:00 LCL, >> Gary Booker said: G> I work for a company that manufactures and sells software development G> tools. Some of my competition is freeware, and while some people will G> make an initial decision to use a certain tool because it can be obtained G> for a token media charge, these same people will often suffer later on G> when they need to add support for a new device or operating system G> version, or need to get support to resolve another technical issue. There's a company called Cygnus which makes its living by providing support for the GNU suite of free software packages. The software is free, but the support is not. G> One of the reasons all companies need to generate a certain amount of G> profit is so that revenue can be put back into research and development, G> and post sales support. I'd be the last person to argue against the profit motive. However, I like to see as much choice as possible when it comes to picking software, and I think the existence of free (or low-cost) alternatives helps keep companies from jacking the price of their stuff into the stratosphere. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] The First Amendment is often inconvenient. But that is besides the point. Inconvenience does not absolve the government of its obligation to tolerate speech. --Justice Anthony Kennedy, in 91-155 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:43:01 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: 4D Solutions Subject: Unemployment Not sure if all agree that recent back 'n forth re copy-protection of metaphysical assets (software, digital media of all kinds) is hyper-relevant to GEODESIC thematography, but *I've* certainly found it to be so. Shows how far high living standards for all are from status quo, how making kids cough up lots of cash to receive intrinsically copiable knowledge and tools is the only way we know to keep food on the table (I'm a software developer too, by the way, and couldn't get by being Mr. Altruism). But lots of people have guaranteed incomes while working in the intellectual properties business (professors). What Bucky may have been saying, to the chagrin of LAWCAP, is that a system which does *not* hold basic living necessities hostage pending proof of your usefulness to society, but rather supplies a workstation to all and lets each individual seek excellence (or not), will come out ahead in the innovation and creativity department. There are *lots* of ways to meter a digital product's usefulness to others, and even to reward its authors accordingly, but *without* forcing us into *earning a living* behaviors. So many digital properties are vitally useful, but simply do not fit into the "earning a living from revenues on sales" framework. In fact, its the infinite copiability of digital media that makes "earning a living from revenues on sales" a system that gets us actively militating to inhibit technology, with handicapped CD copiers, dongles, other anti-copying schemes. We've made photo-duplicating an item (leaving it for others to also use and duplicate) a crime called "Piracy." Imagine a pirate ship coming alongside, snapping polaroids of your treasure chest, and dashing off, cackling. Such is piracy. (Again, I'm not personally into using a lot of pirated software, but I've seen whole countries sustaining their economies on same, without the foreign exchange to "make it all legal" and question a LAWCAP new world order (i.e. the GATT) that would permanently make metaphysical assets artificially, suffocatingly unaquirable in an economy desparate for such assets). -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 09:37:20 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Cary Subject: Re: Latest DOME magazine There is a magazine out there???!!!!! Can someone post the subscription information!! Are back issues available??? THANKS!!! -Steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:57:44 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Unemployment >> On Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:43:01 -0800, >> Kirby said: K> What Bucky may have been saying, to the chagrin of LAWCAP, is that a K> system which does *not* hold basic living necessities hostage pending K> proof of your usefulness to society, but rather supplies a workstation to K> all and lets each individual seek excellence (or not), will come out K> ahead in the innovation and creativity department. Sounds neat, but God lives in the details. You may want to ask the folks in the former USSR how those details turned out. K> There are *lots* of ways to meter a digital product's usefulness to K> others, and even to reward its authors accordingly, but *without* forcing K> us into *earning a living* behaviors. Show me. The essence of peaceful trade is TRADE; I get something of objective value in return for something I give you of value. Don't forget, value is in the eye of the beholder; the respect of my peers is great, but it won't put food on my table. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:01:54 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Daniel Moerschel Subject: Re: Latest DOME magazine In-Reply-To: <94Feb23.073703pst.14417(4)@alpha.xerox.com> Dome magazine? Where do I get a copy. Is it something I will find on a news-st and? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 13:37:39 -0500 Reply-To: ab919@leo.nmc.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ted A. Hunt" Subject: Re: Latest DOME magazine Could you post subscription information for DOME magazine? (There are probably a number of us new enough to ask.) Thanks! -- Ted A. Hunt East Lansing, MI USA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 13:36:48 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis R Short Subject: Re: Latest DOME magazine In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 23 Feb 1994 09:23:52 EDT from Can someone post the address for Dome? In fact a list of magazines, newsletters, or groups on domes would be useful. Recent dome books? To my knowledge there is no FAQ covering this. Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 16:03:06 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brewer Eddy Subject: Re: Latest DOME magazine Daniel asks: > Dome magazine? Where do I get a copy. Is it something I will find on a news- st > and? I answer: Dome Magazine, published quarterly by... Hoflin Publishing (they do 24+ special interest mags!) 4401 Zephyr St. Wheat Ridge, CO 80033-3299 Phone 303-934-5656 (6am-6pm Denver time) $40 a year, owch, 10 bucks per! outside USA $44 (US DOLLARS) Vol 6 number 3 Spring 94 Dome ISSN 1041-1607 I called looking for an author (never connected), but took a sub. This is a great issue! You seek a VERY rare newsstand (BIG city). With regards, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> D. Brewer Eddy College of William and Mary dbeddy@mail.wm.edu (generic, good!) Computer Center, Jones Hall Williamsburg, VA 23187-8795 Williamsburg, from the indian for "most storms miss us..." <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 21:38:17 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Cristopher J. Fearnley" Subject: Re: Re[2]: Unemployment In-Reply-To: ; from "Gary Booker" at Feb 22, 94 4:24 pm > > On 2/22/94 Karl Vogel wrote: > >>Actually, I think the net is providing a great equalizer against the likes >>of MicroSoft, etc. Slowly but surely, people are going to figure out >>that the stuff they get for free is often of vastly superior quality to >>the stuff provided by the companies. I have no sympathy for a company >>that can't compete on that basis. > >I work for a company that manufactures and sells software development tools. >Some of my competition is freeware, and while some people will make an >initial decision to use a certain tool because it can be obtained for a >token media charge, these same people will often suffer later on when they >need to add support for a new device or operating system version, or need to >support to resolve another technical issue. I speak to companies all the >time who have suffered financialy because they made an initial chioce based >on the "free is a very good price" philosophy. I agree. I think it is ridiculous for a company to get involved with any software without support. However, I think they should buy support for free software. This is what I see as the future of the software industry: programers forming companies to support free software. I think many companies that sell software offer little support and this is as bad for the company buying their software as it would be to use free software with no support. [stuff deleted] > > >I for one am a supporter of freeware, I would not however like to base the >financial future of my company, or any programmer's job on such a tool. > > Gary_Booker@Intersolv.com > Chris Fearnley cfearnl@cpp.pha.pa.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 00:15:50 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "" Subject: Re: Unemployment To: IN%"GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu" "Multiple recipients of list GEODESIC " CC: Subj: RE: Unemployment Return-path: <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-geodesic@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu by delphi.com (PMDF V4.2-11 #6311) id <01H96ZKKCQMO8WYMXX@delphi.com>; Tue, 22 Feb 1994 17:11:59 EST Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0783; Tue, 22 Feb 94 17:10:47 EST Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6160; Tue, 22 Feb 1994 16:56:45 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 1994 13:04:40 -0500 From: Contr Karl Vogel In a previous message, I said that the price system is still the best way to determine what people really value as opposed to what they SAY they value. I mentioned that software I write isn't free; it's just that I've decided not to pass the cost onto the user. >> On Mon, 21 Feb 1994 10:44:19 EST, >> "Cristopher J. Fearnley" replied: C> I've recently gotten involved with free software (namely, Linux) and I C> find that it is clear that the developers of Linux (Linux Torvalds & co.) C> clearly show by their efforts and products that they value functionality C> and freedom over the price system (in Bucky's terminology, they are the C> scientist-artists upon whose legs the rest of society stands tall). I have nothing but respect for Mr. Torvalds and people like him; I'd be flattered as hell if the Free Software Foundation wanted to distribute something I wrote, and I've benefitted tremendously from the software available on the net. I'm writing this message on a freely-available editor, and I run under a freely-available shell every day. However, there's a big difference between Mr. Torvalds wishing to make Linux freely available, and someone else deciding to make Linux freely available without consulting him first. C> Bucky pointed out that all of us are the benificiaries of the excellent C> skills and productive activites of our now deceased forbears. And I hope when I die I leave something behind for those who follow. You mentioned the scientist-artists on whose legs the rest of society stands tall, and I completely agree. However, those scientist-artists don't bother producing anything if they're treated as a means to someone else's ends, and this WILL happen under any scheme of wealth redistribution. C> Similar to the programmers you mentioned, we have the millions of C> deceaced humans who are no longer compensated for their continuing C> contibution to society. How are you planning on compensating me after I die? C> What we are doing as a society is creating the alternative structure that C> will replace the current (ridiculous) economic structure to which we are C> tethered. Actually, I think the net is providing a great equalizer against the likes of MicroSoft, etc. Slowly but surely, people are going to figure out that the stuff they get for free is often of vastly superior quality to the stuff provided by the companies. I have no sympathy for a company that can't compete on that basis. Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] [The United States] can't be so fixed on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- President William Clinton, March 1, 1993 during a press conference in Piscataway, NJ source: Boston Globe, 3/2/93, page 3 Subj: RE: Latest DOME magazine Subject: RE: Latest DOME magazine > From: Brewer Eddy Anyone seen the latest issue. Best one in a while to my eyes! Rich in ideas/pictures/inspiration! And here I am, just putting up a 140 sqft icosa as a garden shed.... Daniel asks: > Dome magazine? Where do I get a copy. Is it something I will find on a news- ght there :-) > >K> There are *lots* of ways to meter a digital product's usefulness to >K> others, and even to ing of > objective value in return for something I give you of value. Don't > forget, value is in the are many varieties of pricing schemes and market configurations... not that I'm an expert. The moral questions of such schemes aside, it seems to me that any organization is doomed which does not let the individual retain a primary and substantial control over what, when, how, and where they will or will not contribute. It is perhaps a greater challenge to convince people that they should make a contribution to our society than to convince them to support their own families. This is as it should be. Still, I have difficulty imagining a society better equipped to ensure both personal freedoms and capitalization withement. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 00:49:32 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: scimatec5@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU Organization: University of Toledo Subject: HIV I've read here and other places that a bucky ball fits over an HIV virus to render it unable to attach to cells. I wondered, however (assuming there were some cheap way to produce it) how one could be assembled around a virus. I realize that iron and helium have been trapped inside, but that was during high energy production. How could this be done with HIV w/in the human body? Steve Mather ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 22:23:04 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "" Subject: Re: HIV The buckyball doesn't fit around the virus, but attatches to a molecular binding site of an enzyme necessary for it's reproduction. Perhaps 'fits in' is a better term, since I am not certain the buckyball attatches in the same way a protien molecule would. I think it is more or less the geometry of the thing that does the trick. mca amiano@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Feb 1994 22:43:43 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: troy vanlynden Subject: questions Can anyone tell me the structural advantages of the geodesic dome? What are the dimensions of the triangle? What is the formula for the parabola of it? How is it made? I am looking at designing a structure which may have some use for the triangle/dome design troy V. n9340162@henson.cc.wwu.edu.usa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Feb 1994 10:34:45 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "" Subject: Re: questions In short, the dome is a structure with the highest ratio of enclosed area to external surface area, and in which all structural members are equal contributors to the whole. Your other questions are too general to be answered here and still do justice to them; I'd advise you to look for some of the many publications on domes/geodesics & related R.B.F designs, many of which can be had from the R.B.F. Institute in L.A. (310) 837-7710. (B.T.W., there are many sizes of triangles in a geodesic, depending on the frequency of subdivision of the underlying spherical polyhedron. The cross section of a geodesic approximates a great-circle line and not a parabola.) As I am wont to do, I cheerfully suggest you also give some consideration to the Octetruss (and variations of space frames); or if you are interested in a high strength-to-wieght ratio, in tensile-integrity (tensegrity) structures which are only and always only tensionally cohered. mca amiano@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:03:48 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Rob Hoffmann Organization: Rijkswaterstaat Directie Zeeland Subject: Triangulation problem: help wanted Hi, I have some questions about the following problem (as a newby to the subject, some of it may be very trivial, but please forgive me): TRIANGULATION PROBLEM: Given a set of points (eg. 8000) in a three-dimensional space. Now connect all points to eachother by constructing triangles between them, where all triangles are as equilateral as possible. This seems to be a well-known problem in geodesic and survey disciplines, and in fact a solution exists by Voronoy, Daloneiy and Thijssen. About this solution and others I have the following questions: 1. Is it a NP-problem? How "fast" is the Voronoy-Daloneiy-Thijssen solution? 2. Are there other/better solutions/algorithms to this problem? 3. Where to find more information about the subject? IOW, what is the best/fastest way to calculate (by computer) the solution to the problem mentioned above? Any help and insight would be appreciated! Please respond by E-mail! Thanks in advance, and many greetings from rainy Holland, Rob. _______________________________________________________________ | Rob Hoffmann | hoffmann@rwzl10.zld.rws.nl | --------------------------------------------------------------| | _ __ _ | | | |_| |_| | Rob Hoffmann | | |__________| Poptahof Noord 322 | | | | 2624 RR Delft | | _|______|_ The Netherlands | | |__________| (3115) 621648 | |_____________________________________________________________| | It's gettin' better all the time - it couldn't get no worse | --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 16:13:49 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Craig Anderson Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc. Subject: sphere packing? A friend showed me 4 golf balls glued together into a tetrahedron. What materials, balls and glue, have people tried out? Any recommendations? My first thought is ping pong balls, but a larger ball would be interesting also. Also, is there a good way to glue balls into an icosadron? Craig Anderson craig@c4.com 303.825.8183 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 18:05:00 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DAMICO@GELMAN.CIRC.GWU.EDU Subject: Re: 4D Lives! There is a Space Frame Journal. Published quarterly I think. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 18:15:59 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DAMICO@GELMAN.CIRC.GWU.EDU Subject: Re: questions While I agree with most of what Mitch writes regarding tensegrity, the statement that a tensegrity is only tensionally cohered seems imho inaccurate. Fuller stated as a general principle that "tension and compression always and only coexist". There is no way to have tension without corresponding compressional forces in the structure. I believe that Mitch was referring to the fact that a tensegrity is a continuous tension - discontinuous compression structure. This is as distinguished from tradional structuring which is continuous compression and discontinuous tension. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 18:19:10 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DAMICO@GELMAN.CIRC.GWU.EDU Subject: Re: sphere packing? I use various sized styrofoam (yes I know its not a green material) balls in my classes. They are very easy to work with. You can easily build a vector equilibrium model with spheres. The icosahedron is a bit more difficult because you have to build it without a nucleus sphere. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 18:03:12 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DAMICO@GELMAN.CIRC.GWU.EDU Subject: Re: Edison's Octets Unistrut corporation has several Octet truss systems. I will send their address ASAP but they have an 800 number and numerous regional reps. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Feb 1994 20:39:19 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Cristopher J. Fearnley" Subject: Re: sphere packing? In-Reply-To: ; from "Craig Anderson" at Feb 28, 94 4:13 pm > > A friend showed me 4 golf balls glued together into a tetrahedron. > What materials, balls and glue, have people tried out? Any recommendations? > My first thought is ping pong balls, but a larger ball would be > interesting also. Yes, ping pong balls are wonderful. I use a tacky tape type stuff to bind them together (this helps me to dis-assemble and then re-assemble them into new shapes). I got about two gross to work with - very fun and educational. > > Also, is there a good way to glue balls into an icosadron? Yes, but it isn't closest packed so it's harder to do - you need to visualize the shape, then build it. With closest packed structures, everything just fits into place. I prefer the sticky tape to glue, less messy, reversible and pliable to adjust for physical imperfections. > > Craig Anderson > craig@c4.com > 303.825.8183 > Chris Fearnley cfearnl@cpp.pha.pa.us