From <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Mon Feb 6 18:01:49 1995 Received: from netaxs.com (root@netaxs.com [198.69.186.1]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA01626 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 18:01:49 -0500 Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [128.205.2.1]) by netaxs.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA06789 for ; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 18:01:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199502062301.SAA06789@netaxs.com> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7822; Mon, 06 Feb 95 18:01:19 EST Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 9051; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 12:39:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Feb 1995 12:39:24 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8a)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9403" To: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 20:38:06 +0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Ben Rampling Organization: Informed Technology Subject: conversion software Needed, a program to convert UTM grid coordinates to graticular coordinates. Please reply via E-mail --- ben@it.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 23:58:43 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: 4D Solutions K> What Bucky may have been saying, to the chagrin of LAWCAP, is that a K> system which does *not* hold basic living necessities hostage pending K> proof of your usefulness to society, but rather supplies a workstation to K> all and lets each individual seek excellence (or not), will come out K> ahead in the innovation and creativity department. V> Sounds neat, but God lives in the details. You may want to ask the folks V> in the former USSR how those details turned out. -------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think Bucky was a fan of totalitarian, centrally planned social structures any more than he was of lawyer led limited liability bureaucracies. Either way, a lot of people have workstation access without regard for the excellence (or not) of their output. Fuller's point in Critical Path was that even many of those gainfully employed (not counting earlier discussed disemployed-through-automation) are doing nothing very vital to the creation of sustainable life support systems. Market pricing is just the tip of the iceberg of a system of pushes and pulls. At the far end of the cheap jeans is the barrel of a gun, pointed at people who cannot prove legal tenure to the land their ancestors farmed for generations. The prices we pay have a lot of brute force behind them, not just self-interested parties freely making choices. Making cash scarce to keep it valuable, by making those who have it fear the miserable state of those who do not, is a coercive system, not a freedom-loving one. Cold cash is just one of many "currencies" -- the most liquidly convertible (provided it is one of the globally acceptable "hard" ones). I'm a big fan of wiring workstations to systems which dispense credits redeemable "in kind." E.g. hours spent completing multimedia session on Insects of the World gets you tickets to the science museum and a $40 credit at a book store. The museum and bookstore are also receiving lots of non-cash redeemables for their services. Not barter exactly, but not pure liquid either. Computers make it practical to electronify wealth distribution games that accomplish the movement of goods in services in more channeled, designed structures. Not big brother though, since no central planning authority -- just lots of dial-in "games" with costs and rewards, likely to attract those with a self-interest in playing. Those are the details. From a distance, it looks like a planet full of professors on tenure, working hard, doing more metaphysical stuff than before. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 22:58:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: scimatec5@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU Organization: University of Toledo Subject: Closest packing I wondered if hexagonal closest packing forms an IVM? Also, is a diamond cubic structure the same as an IVM? Steve Mather ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 08:56:17 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: 4D Solutions I wondered if hexagonal closest packing forms an IVM? Also, is a diamond cubic structure the same as an IVM? Steve Mather HCP allows infinite permutations as successive layers of spheres do not need to lie over top a specific hole in the layer 2 down. HCP is not a restrictive enough packing method to generate the IVM per se. The IVM is equivalent to the face-centered cubic packing (FCC). I believe all diamond atoms occupy FCC positions, but leave others empty. Buckminsterfullerene will pack into an IVM (appropriately), and, with potassium wedged in some of the interstices, become a superconductor. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 09:55:48 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles Hendricksen Subject: Re: sphere packing? In-Reply-To: <9403010353.AA29268@carson.u.washington.edu> Some years ago I took a delightful course in "Patterns in Nature". We made models of the various crystal structures and geometric models using Duco cement and the plastic beads from bead chains from the import shop (Pier One). Cheap, the right size (about 5mm), and best of all many colors. Charlie Hendricksen veritas@u.washington.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 13:36:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Tenure, etc. >> On Tue, 1 Mar 1994 23:58:43 -0800, >> 4D Solutions said: Kirby> The prices we pay have a lot of brute force behind them, not just Kirby> self-interested parties freely making choices. Anyone who can't tell the difference between the power of a dollar and the power of a gun deserves to learn it on his own hide. Kirby> Making cash scarce to keep it valuable, by making those who have it Kirby> fear the miserable state of those who do not, is a coercive system, Kirby> not a freedom-loving one. No one has deliberately set out to "make" cash scarce. Earth does NOT give us everything we need without requiring any productive work on our part; if we want food, we have to grow it or get it from someone who has grown it. This can be done in one of two ways; peacefully through trade or otherwise. Redistributing wealth falls into the "otherwise" category. If you redistribute something I've created, then you're treating me as a means to your ends and destroying any motivation I may have to increase or improve what I produce. It's that simple. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Mar 1994 12:26:48 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Cristopher J. Fearnley" Subject: Re: Closest packing In-Reply-To: ; from "scimatec5@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU" at Mar 1, 94 10:58 pm > > I wondered if hexagonal closest packing forms an IVM? I think so. Check Arthur Loeb's contribution in _Synergetics_ volume 1. > > Also, is a diamond cubic structure the same as an IVM? Again Loeb may comment on this. I don't have my copy of Synergetics at hand. > > Steve Mather > Chris Fearnley cfearnl@cpp.pha.pa.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 19:38:55 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Kevin Sahr Organization: Forest Sciences Laboratory Subject: Re: Tenure, etc. In article <199403021836.NAA29510@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil> Contr Karl Vogel writes: >>> On Tue, 1 Mar 1994 23:58:43 -0800, >>> 4D Solutions said: > ...stuff deleted... > >Kirby> Making cash scarce to keep it valuable, by making those who have it >Kirby> fear the miserable state of those who do not, is a coercive system, >Kirby> not a freedom-loving one. > > No one has deliberately set out to "make" cash scarce. Earth does > NOT give us everything we need without requiring any productive work > on our part; if we want food, we have to grow it or get it from > someone who has grown it. This can be done in one of two ways; > peacefully through trade or otherwise. > ...more stuff deleted... > I think these two viewpoints define the crux of the debate. And I (and I think Bucky) would have to agree more with Kirby. Capitalism is based on scarcity, and those with a deeply vested interest in the status quo (or a simple fear of change, which I think we all share to some extent), will fight any efforts to, say, develop cheap renewable sources of energy which threaten the scarcity and thus the value of their sources of income. In the long run, we each individually and as a society suffer from this. I've heard the argument that the mechanics of a free-market economy will eventually overcome such inertia, but I find the idea that we live in anything even close to a free-market economy to be absurd. > Redistributing wealth falls into the "otherwise" category. If you > redistribute something I've created, then you're treating me as a > means to your ends and destroying any motivation I may have to > increase or improve what I produce. It's that simple. If you need money to survive in today's capitalist economy, I certainly can sympathize. If you need money to validate the worth of what you do for 8+ hours every day, then you are in the wrong job. I find Bucky's vision of a society of scientist/artists who are self-fulfilled in the very act of creation/learning to be inspiring. The problem, of course, is how we get from here to there. I do not claim to have the answer. However, I think that the dawning of the information age is going to make it very difficult for people to, at the very least, delude themselves into thinking that we do not live in an economy of enforced scarcity. Because information, by it's very nature, only has value in a capitalist economy to the extent that it is deliberately "made" scarce. If I have an HDTV with a digital recorder capable of perfect reproduction of "Jurassic Park," and a fiber optic link direct to a digital copy of that movie, then someone is going to have to introduce a deliberate "mechanism of scarcity" to keep me from copying it. If I have a computer on my desktop capable of creating, from a hardware/software standpoint, the dinosaur sequences from "Jurassic Park," then the only thing of real value in JP is Steven Spielberg's creativity (and that of the other artists that participated in it's making). Once Steven Spielberg (or anyone else) no longer needs Hollywood's money to make a movie like JP, and no longer needs their distribution channels (because everyone has equal access to the net -- unless we CHOOSE to make access "scarce") then what is to stop him from just making his movies out of the sheer pleasure of it and giving copies freely to anyone who wants them? Or must we believe that Spielberg requires money to validate the worth of his work (he certainly doesn't need more of it to live!)? As we move closer and closer to an "information standard" of value in our economy, I think the old economic models we've been using are in for a crisis. I, for one, hope it will be a fatal crisis. As we hackers say: "Information is free, but it does have a cost." > >-- >Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] Kevin Sahr ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:43:36 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: dmc@CC.GATECH.EDU Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Tech Subject: pise de terre aka rammed earth I know this is not the correct group, but I don't think there is a correct group. I am interrested in pise de terre or rammed earth houses. I have done some reading on them, but the number of books seems to be very small. In addition to being one of the oldest building methods, rammed earth was experimented with after WWI in the US and England. Currently, it is in use in Australia. Australia is especially interresting because it is used as a means for employing the unemployed (another thread). Does anyone know where to get in touch with people who have had experiences with rammed earth? Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. -------------------------------------------------- David Carlson - dmc@cc.gatech.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 20:19:36 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Re: Tenure, etc. >> On Thu, 3 Mar 1994 19:38:55 GMT, >> Kevin Sahr said: Kevin> Capitalism is based on scarcity. Wrong. Political power is based on either perceived or enforced scarcity, whereas capitalism acts to correct scarcity. Kevin> Those with a deeply vested interest in the status quo will fight any Kevin> efforts to, say, develop cheap renewable sources of energy which Kevin> threaten the scarcity and thus the value of their sources of income. Granted, but this behavior has NOTHING to do with capitalism. This is taking out a competitor with political pull rather than competition, which would not be possible in a capitalist society. Kevin> In the long run, we each individually and as a society suffer from Kevin> this. Agree completely. Kevin> I've heard the argument that the mechanics of a free-market economy Kevin> will eventually overcome such inertia, but I find the idea that we Kevin> live in anything even close to a free-market economy to be absurd. It's hard to see your point here. We're not even close to a free-market economy by your own admission, so how do you know what the mechanics of such an economy would be? The free markets we had until about 1913 did a great job of overcoming exactly this type of inertia, but we've been moving away from capitalism ever since. We're a lot closer to socialism or outright fascism now. Kevin> If you need money to survive in today's capitalist economy, I Kevin> certainly can sympathize. You need money to survive in ANY form of economy that's past simple barter. Money is simply a representation of the idea that peaceful trade rather than force should be the key element in human dealings. Kevin> If you need money to validate the worth of what you do for 8+ hours Kevin> every day, then you are in the wrong job. Agree completely. Money gives you the means to obtain both tangible and intangible things of value, but it will never tell you what to value in the first place. We do live in an economy of enforced scarcity, because that's the hallmark of collectivism. Kevin> Information, by it's very nature, only has value in a capitalist Kevin> economy to the extent that it is deliberately "made" scarce. Wrong. Less than an hour ago, I had occasion to use the Internet to locate some information about POSIX standards. The information I found was quite valuable to me; it would have been useless had I not been able to obtain it. Some people might think that this information is "free", but they'd be wrong. The people who went through the effort of creating the POSIX standards, organizing them, and putting them on anonymous FTP have simply chosen NOT to pass the cost onto me. "Cost" is much more than money; it's time and effort. Kevin> If I have an HDTV with a digital recorder capable of perfect Kevin> reproduction of "Jurassic Park," and a fiber optic link direct to a Kevin> digital copy of that movie, then someone is going to have to Kevin> introduce a deliberate "mechanism of scarcity" to keep me from Kevin> copying it. Protecting someone's right to distribute what they produce isn't the same as a "mechanism of scarcity". If Spielberg wanted you to have a copy, he'd give you one. If he wants you to give him something of value in return for a copy, that's his right. Kevin> Once Steven Spielberg no longer needs Hollywood's money to make a Kevin> movie like JP, and no longer needs their distribution channels Kevin> (because everyone has equal access to the net -- unless we CHOOSE to Kevin> make access "scarce") then what is to stop him from just making his Kevin> movies out of the sheer pleasure of it and giving copies freely to Kevin> anyone who wants them? He's rich enough to retire, so I can only assume that he's making movies now for the sheer pleasure of it. The thing is, he didn't make the movie all by himself. Several thousand other people helped out, all of whom have to eat and most of whom have families to support, children to educate, etc. The Net didn't just fall off a tree, it was built by other skilled people with the same requirements as the movie-makers. Things of value don't just magically appear; people have to work to make them. Kevin> As we hackers say: "Information is free, but it does have a cost." Nothing is free. The people who create something of value can choose to not pass the cost along. That's a difference which Fuller never understood. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 00:20:34 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: 4D Solutions Kurt> Anyone who can't tell the difference between the power of a dollar Kurt> and the power of a gun deserves to learn it on his own hide. Do you think the world's most deeply indebted nation would still have a hard currency if it couldn't also hit hard targets? Kurt> Redistributing wealth falls into the "otherwise" category. If you Kurt> redistribute something I've created, then you're treating me as a Kurt> means to your ends and destroying any motivation I may have to Kurt> increase or improve what I produce. It's that simple. There's no way that you, born a helpless baby just decades ago, could possibly pay your debts to humanity for all the assets you use in life, including the words you use free of charge. Humans don't pay the sun for powering the earth or take much credit for all the automatic wealth creation that goes on around us constantly, cashlessly. Humans get to work, yes, but they don't get to take credit for everything they produce. Ultimately we're distributing wealth to to children (average global age: 15) and generations yet unborn -- no way they can pay their own way. You can be part of the solution, or part of the problem. It's that simple. Kevin: "However, I think that the dawning of the information age is going to make it very difficult for people to, at the very least, delude themselves into thinking that we do not live in an economy of enforced scarcity. Agreed. I think the institution called The Library is fundamental to democracy and wonder what will happen to this institution in the digital age. What does it mean to "borrow" a digital asset when making a copy also leaves it on the shelf? Trying to make information assets fit the mold of real estate assets when talking about "intellectual property" is to seriously mix metaphors. Information assets are not English country estates. -- Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 18:06:40 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Organization: Control Data Systems Inc. Subject: Generation of wealth >> On Sun, 6 Mar 1994 00:20:34 -0800, >> 4D Solutions said: Kirby> Do you think the world's most deeply indebted nation would still have Kirby> a hard currency if it couldn't also hit hard targets? It's hard to see what your point is here, unless you actually believe we got all of our wealth by stealing it. Kirby> There's no way that you, born a helpless baby just decades ago, could Kirby> possibly pay your debts to humanity for all the assets you use in Kirby> life, including the words you use free of charge. You've got to be kidding. Exactly who's going to charge me for using language, and by what right? I don't owe anything to generations past other than a "thank you", and the folks in 2050 won't owe me any more than that, either. My parents got me started, in the same way and for the same reason that I would get my kids started. Kirby> Humans don't pay the sun for powering the earth or take much credit Kirby> for all the automatic wealth creation that goes on around us Kirby> constantly, cashlessly. This is getting ridiculous. The sun powered the earth long before we were here and will do so long after we're gone. I treat sentient beings a bit differently than I treat inanimate objects. Kirby> Humans get to work, yes, but they don't get to take credit for Kirby> everything they produce. Under a just system they certainly do get to take credit. If I produce and someone else disposes of what I produce, then I'm being treated like a slave, and I might just decide it's not worth the trouble to produce anything. Kirby> Ultimately we're distributing wealth to children (average global age: Kirby> 15) and generations yet unborn -- no way they can pay their own way. They'll pay their way just like I did; by acting in a civilized fashion, NOT acting as if the world "owes" them something, and by causing fewer problems than they solve. Obviously there will be generations that come after this one, and I certainly don't bear them any ill will; I'd like to think that my actions would help make their lives a bit richer or more secure, but that's a hell of a long way from acknowledging some "obligation" to sacrifice myself for people I don't know. I'll work to make the lives of my children better. If it also makes the lives of your kids better, that's an irrelevant secondary by-product of my actions. I don't mind, because it would make me feel nice, but it's a virtue rather than an obligation. Learn the difference. Kirby> Trying to make information assets fit the mold of real estate assets Kirby> when talking about "intellectual property" is to seriously mix Kirby> metaphors. Information assets are not English country estates. Completely agree. Information assets should not be treated identically to something like land or food, but both information and food have a basic principle in common: they don't appear by magic. Someone has to work to create both, and when you treat that someone as a means to your ends, you've got a real problem. -- Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 22:49:24 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marty Hicks Subject: sphere packing\ >A friend showed me 4 golf balls glued together into a tetrahedron. What materials, balls and glue, have people tried out? Any recommendations? My first thought is ping pong balls, but a larger ball would be interesting also. Craig, Back in art school I made a carrying case for ping pong balls (147) based on the cuboctahedron (closest packing of spheres). I made it out of clear vinyl with a zipper and handle. It remains one of my favorite pieces from those days gone by. I thought of making large storage structures based on the same shape for playground balls at elementary schools. Marty ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 09:27:32 LCL Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: GERRY SEGAL Subject: Re: sphere packing\ Marty, et al: I would really love to see a picture of that. This list needs a ftp site or a gopher server or even better a world wide web presence so we can see what we are talking about. Cheers Gerry > Back in art school I made a carrying case for ping pong balls (147) based on the > cuboctahedron (closest packing of spheres). I made it out of clear vinyl with a > zipper and handle. It remains one of my favorite pieces from those days gone by. > I thought of making large storage structures based on the same shape for > playground balls at elementary schools. > > Marty > Gerry Segal Director of College Systems Bank Street College of Education New York, NY ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 22:33:54 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "Eric J. Carlino" Organization: DePaul University, Chicago Subject: *!STUDENTS!* Add YOUR Name to the Nat'l Student Directory !! Greetings to Students across the USA: I am working on a project to compile a phone book for college/university students. The unique characteristic of this registry will be that it includes interests/hobbies that can be queried - so you can easily find other students who have similar interests as you, and begin correspondence. To make this a success, I need EVERYONE to respond! Spread the word! Make copies of this message and have ALL of your friends respond!! To respond, fill out the form below, and reply via email. It is very important that you use the form as it is below, because I have a program to parse all of the information. Just fill in your data and return this whole message as it is. Note: to anyone who has too much time on their hands and wants to mess this up by sending phony names, I have included in my program a "detective" to search for phony names and exclude them. Duplicates will also be discarded. So don't waste your time! The end result of this effort will probably a system like this: You send mail requesting all of the different categories and available values for each category on file. You only have to do this once. Then you send mail requesting a list of all students who have X value in Y category. For example, who live in a certain state, or are in a particular major, or have a certain hobby. Now you have a list of people with interests similar to your own, with whom you can correspond. OK, here is the form. Fill in as many of the fields as you can. Simply overwrite the sample entries: --==+> START FORM <+==-- First Name: John/Jane Last Name: Doe Gender: M F Birthdate: 1/1/70 email address: jd@mach.univ.edu Current ------- Address: 1 Main St City: Smallville State: XX Zip: 12345 Phone: 123/456-7890 Home ---- Address: 1 Main St City: Smallville State: XX Zip: 12345 Phone: 123/456-7890 School currently attending: U of wherever City, State of school: city, state Major (list only one): computer science Minor (list only one): accounting Degree currently seeking (list only one): B.S. B.A. M.S PhD Year in school: fr so jr sr grad Interests/hobbies (list up to a dozen, one per line, starting on next line): 1. baseball 2. fishing 3. rock 'n roll 4. etc. 5. etc. 6. etc. 7. etc. 8. etc. 9. etc. 10. etc. 11. etc. 12. etc. --==+> END FORM <+==-- Thank you for your support. I'll let everyone know when the system is ready to go on-line. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 01:32:58 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Kevin Sahr Organization: Forest Sciences Laboratory Subject: Re: Tenure, etc. In article <199403060119.UAA00255@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil> Contr Karl Vogel writes: >>> On Thu, 3 Mar 1994 19:38:55 GMT, >>> Kevin Sahr said: > >Kevin> Capitalism is based on scarcity. > > Wrong. Political power is based on either perceived or enforced > scarcity, whereas capitalism acts to correct scarcity. > I don't see this at all, except to the extent that political power often goes hand-in-hand with economic power (I don't know about you, but I sure don't have enough money to run for the Senate). Or maybe I agree with it to the extent that capitalism, as a system that in it's time (thankfully coming to an end) was the "best" around, acted to move economic goods from areas of high concentration to areas of low concentration (in the process moving all value in the opposite direction, I might add). In this sense it might be more accurate to characterize capitalism as requiring a difference in "economic potential energy." But the result is still the same; if the universe is attempting to evolve towards a state where that economic potential imbalance ceases to exist, then those who have a vested interest in that imbalance (i.e., the "haves" who control capitalism) will fight that evolution. Fortunately for the rest of us, as Bucky points out, those who fight the universe are doomed to lose. >Kevin> Those with a deeply vested interest in the status quo will fight any >Kevin> efforts to, say, develop cheap renewable sources of energy which >Kevin> threaten the scarcity and thus the value of their sources of income. > > Granted, but this behavior has NOTHING to do with capitalism. This > is taking out a competitor with political pull rather than > competition, which would not be possible in a capitalist society. > Again, you seem to make some sort of distinction between political and capitalist power that I think barely exists in reality, or at least didn't until very recently. In a society which places preeminence in it's economy, those who have real economic power (and I'm not talking about Joe who owns the grocery store down the street) will be able to wield political power to acheive their economic aims. These are the people who suppressed solar energy research, not the people who are constantly being accused of "socializing" our economy. >Kevin> In the long run, we each individually and as a society suffer from >Kevin> this. > > Agree completely. > >Kevin> I've heard the argument that the mechanics of a free-market economy >Kevin> will eventually overcome such inertia, but I find the idea that we >Kevin> live in anything even close to a free-market economy to be absurd. > > It's hard to see your point here. We're not even close to a > free-market economy by your own admission, so how do you know what > the mechanics of such an economy would be? > > The free markets we had until about 1913 did a great job of > overcoming exactly this type of inertia, but we've been moving > away from capitalism ever since. We're a lot closer to socialism or > outright fascism now. > If you define a free market as peaceful trade without any exertion of political or military interference then do you really feel that that existed prior to 1913? Usually the people that claim that during certain eras political power ceased to play a role in the US economy are those that are only willing to define political power as anything that interferes with the fulfillment of their business interests, irregardless of who ever elses' rights are being interfered with. As if when we start a war with Spain because it's in our business interests, then somehow that's not political/military participation in the free market. But if we pass a law so that children are protected from slave labor, then that is an unfair intrusion of political power into the economic sphere. Again, I think that in it's time capitalism was a step forward. I'm merely saying that it's time to step forward again. Do you really want to return to a pre-1913 economy, where children routinely worked 10+ hour days, and our earth was raped by selfish interests who only thought of themselves and their quarterly profits? >Kevin> If you need money to survive in today's capitalist economy, I >Kevin> certainly can sympathize. > > You need money to survive in ANY form of economy that's past simple > barter. Money is simply a representation of the idea that peaceful > trade rather than force should be the key element in human dealings. > Peaceful trade is a good thing. But the "money industry" which feeds on our economy without giving it anything of value is not. And as I tried to point-out above, as far as I can tell peaceful trade has never been a complete system of economy in recorded human history (though perhaps there are some Amazon tribes I haven't read about or such...). >Kevin> If you need money to validate the worth of what you do for 8+ hours >Kevin> every day, then you are in the wrong job. > > Agree completely. Money gives you the means to obtain both tangible > and intangible things of value, but it will never tell you what to > value in the first place. We do live in an economy of enforced > scarcity, because that's the hallmark of collectivism. > Wait a minute, I thought we DIDN'T live in an economy of enforced scarcity. Could we possibly be saying the same thing somewhere in all of this? The problem, as I see it, is this. We have things that we think are of value, say food and clothing and cars. We establish some standard by which to measure this value, i.e., money. So far this is OK, but what has happened is that because money is our standard of value, this society has come to value money over and above all else, even above those things which it can never possibly buy!! >Kevin> Information, by it's very nature, only has value in a capitalist >Kevin> economy to the extent that it is deliberately "made" scarce. > > Wrong. Less than an hour ago, I had occasion to use the Internet to > locate some information about POSIX standards. The information I > found was quite valuable to me; it would have been useless had I not > been able to obtain it. > > Some people might think that this information is "free", but they'd > be wrong. The people who went through the effort of creating the > POSIX standards, organizing them, and putting them on anonymous FTP > have simply chosen NOT to pass the cost onto me. "Cost" is much more > than money; it's time and effort. > Oops, no, I don't think we DO see eye-to-eye! I agree that information has a "cost" (read my quote below again!!). But I don't agree that costs are something that need to be "compensated" in some way. Most people that I know who write and distribute code or info on the net do it because: 1) THEY ENJOY DOING IT, EVEN IF IT TAKES "WORK", 2) PART OF WHAT THEY ENJOY IS FREELY SHARING THE RESULTS OF THEIR EFFORTS WITH OTHERS, and 3) IF THEY DO IT MAYBE OTHER'S WILL AS WELL. Yes, there is a cost, but the whole point is that the very act of passing that cost on to others would devalue the work in an essential way. >Kevin> If I have an HDTV with a digital recorder capable of perfect >Kevin> reproduction of "Jurassic Park," and a fiber optic link direct to a >Kevin> digital copy of that movie, then someone is going to have to >Kevin> introduce a deliberate "mechanism of scarcity" to keep me from >Kevin> copying it. > > Protecting someone's right to distribute what they produce isn't the > same as a "mechanism of scarcity". If Spielberg wanted you to have a > copy, he'd give you one. If he wants you to give him something of > value in return for a copy, that's his right. > Perhaps Steven Spielberg DOES want me to have a copy. But because it takes millions of dollars to make a movie (this is changing, of course, which was part of the point of my original story) he must go to the people in Hollywood who have the money (but who add NO OTHER VALUE TO THE FINISHED PRODUCT) and sell to them the rights to enforce scarcity on the finished product so that they can make more money. There was a time when I think it would of been correct to see them as facilitating the making and distribution of movies, but now they just get in the way and inhibit Spielberg's ability to express himself as an artist as well as our ability to enjoy the fruits of his artistry, AND OUR ENJOYMENT IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF HIS ENJOYMENT. >Kevin> Once Steven Spielberg no longer needs Hollywood's money to make a >Kevin> movie like JP, and no longer needs their distribution channels >Kevin> (because everyone has equal access to the net -- unless we CHOOSE to >Kevin> make access "scarce") then what is to stop him from just making his >Kevin> movies out of the sheer pleasure of it and giving copies freely to >Kevin> anyone who wants them? > > He's rich enough to retire, so I can only assume that he's making > movies now for the sheer pleasure of it. The thing is, he didn't > make the movie all by himself. Several thousand other people helped > out, all of whom have to eat and most of whom have families to > support, children to educate, etc. The Net didn't just fall off a > tree, it was built by other skilled people with the same requirements > as the movie-makers. Things of value don't just magically appear; > people have to work to make them. > Actually, I think the net was mostly built by people who were not payed for their efforts. They did it because they thought the net was a good thing (for everyone, not just for themselves) and because they enjoyed what they were doing. >Kevin> As we hackers say: "Information is free, but it does have a cost." > > Nothing is free. The people who create something of value can choose > to not pass the cost along. That's a difference which Fuller never > understood. > Please read the whole quote this time: Information is free, BUT IT DOES HAVE A COST. We just don't agree on the nature of that cost. Fuller understood these issues very, very clearly. By the way, it's curious to see someone so hostile to Fuller's most basic philosophies here in this group. Just here scoping out potential military applications of Synergetics (noticed your address)? There are many, I can promise you. It is perhaps impolite to take these discussions to a personal level, but these are ultimately very personal issues, so I must ask you how you feel about the defense industry in this country, and whether those feelings are consistent with your feelings about capitalism. One of the truest little sayings I've ever heard is that "defense contracting is welfare for rich people." And before you immediately dismiss me as not knowing what I'm talking about, I should mention that I spent four years as an officer in the US Army, and five years after that doing defense contracting. I've never been to WPAFB, and for all I know it could be the last bastion of true selfless servants of the cause of national defense, but I've worked with enough defense contractors and national "labs" to know that that is probably not the case. >-- >Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 01:42:31 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: scimatec5@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU Organization: University of Toledo Subject: Bucky balls How can I get bucky balls? I have an idea how to make them, but I'm not sure with all the patents out there whether I can legally make them (easily.) How much is the present cost? Steve Mather ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 01:50:49 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Kevin Sahr Organization: Forest Sciences Laboratory Subject: Re: Generation of wealth In article <199403062306.SAA21538@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil> Contr Karl Vogel writes: >>> On Sun, 6 Mar 1994 00:20:34 -0800, >>> 4D Solutions said: > ...stuff deleted... > >Kirby> Humans don't pay the sun for powering the earth or take much credit >Kirby> for all the automatic wealth creation that goes on around us >Kirby> constantly, cashlessly. > > This is getting ridiculous. The sun powered the earth long before we > were here and will do so long after we're gone. I treat sentient > beings a bit differently than I treat inanimate objects. > No, it's not getting ridiculous. First off, the idea that the sun is an "inanimate object" is, well, WRONG. (They must have nuclear physicists there at WPAFP; check the weapons labs, or the outplacement facilities). Whether the sun is sentient or not, well, to be honest I don't know, and you just think that you do. But the sun gives of itself freely without, as far as I can tell, expecting anything in return. I, too, expect AT LEAST THAT MUCH from sentient beings. >Kirby> Humans get to work, yes, but they don't get to take credit for >Kirby> everything they produce. > > Under a just system they certainly do get to take credit. If I > produce and someone else disposes of what I produce, then I'm being > treated like a slave, and I might just decide it's not worth the > trouble to produce anything. > Unless, perhaps, you enjoy producing something! ...rest deleted, because this is getting tiring... > >Kirby> Trying to make information assets fit the mold of real estate assets >Kirby> when talking about "intellectual property" is to seriously mix >Kirby> metaphors. Information assets are not English country estates. > > Completely agree. Information assets should not be treated > identically to something like land or food, but both information and > food have a basic principle in common: they don't appear by magic. > Someone has to work to create both, and when you treat that someone > as a means to your ends, you've got a real problem. And that really is the problem, Karl; Kirby (Hi Kirby; don't mean to put words into your mouth!) and I see that it is the capitalists who "treat that someone as a means to [their] ends". If everyone gives freely of themselves without expecting anything in return, we will all have more than we could ever possibly dream. And because this makes so much sense, that must be where the universe is headed. To me that's really what Bucky was all about. What a beautiful being! > >-- >Karl Vogel vogelke@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] Kevin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 05:47:40 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: leo elliott <76440.1416@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: perverse reversion Gentlemens (and ladies, if ye be there) How about what has become _really_ important (economically) is not the product (movie, book, code, net, etc.) of the artist (scientist, Spielberg, et al.), but rather the "enforced scarcity" youse have recently been batting around? IOW, what drives the GRUNCH economy is not the production of goods and services, as standard economic theory might have it, but rather the perpetual maintenance of scarcities, such that once an item becomes abundant and low-cost, then production shifts to the new style, the movie sequel, the next year's model, etc. Now, nothing new here, to be sure, except that what has come about is the denigration, to the point of debility, of what Bucky may have called the ability to maintain secrets, industrial, military, or otherwise (recall his tales of how civilazation was advanced on the high seas with one nation getting the jump on another, as via the development of guns with longer ranges, by always keeping secret their more-with-lessing capabilities -- now these more-with-lessing capabilities seem to be developing, mutating (dare I say evolving) faster than the old Giants' abilities to keep up with them, witness Aldrich Ames.) {Some may reference this to the Summer '93 issue of Whole Earth Review, wherein Stewart Brand prefaced Kevin Kelly's article on "Cyberspace, E-Money, and the Technologies of Disconnection" (pp. 40-59) as follows: "This one is a world-changer. Personal encryption may be as revolutionary as personal computers in transforming the web of human communications... "Since I am allied with cypherpunks and their program, I feel cheerfully duty-bound to raise a question or two, such as: 'If the real world is awkward to work with and full of cops, and if electronic cyberspace is easy to work with and has no effective cops (thanks to universal encryption) AND is where all the money is, what does that suggest about the future of crime?'"} [Among other things, I would say it suggests at least a few corrolaries to Bucky's "Great Pirate" theory of cultural evolution/development. Low-tech crime begins to flourish in Russia and China as the Giants of GRUNCH realize, perhaps subconsciously, that the clipper chip is a little too late already?] thus in some odd extension of value-added marxian economics, the old-model consumer of mainline value-added products (folks who might pay the full ticket price to go see Jurassic Park in a bigscreen theater) becomes ever less significant in the economic factoring to those who would add value by passing lesser imitations around (videos or associated dino mdse)... which I _think_ leads somewhere back towards Bucky's "ephemeralization" of economic processes. The "value added" manifest on the nets would simply be represented by the "passing on" of data, in the hope/probability that it will assume "added value" as info and/or entertainment on the receiving end. [Whether total selflessness is a psychologically valid motivator for human economic behavior I will leave to the theologians to debate.] My impression is that Bucky was neither naive about capitalism, nor infatuated with the military-industrial complex; just a bit impatient with the normal course of human events: Pessimist or Optimist? "A pessimist is one who 'believes' the world to be rapidly diminishing to complete materialism, and looks only to the past with pleasure. "An optimist is one who 'believes' in no fact of undelectable presence and looks only to the future for happiness. "An individual is one, who, happy in the present time, perceives the relative progression of the spheres. Being unselfish, is he jealous of neither past nor future. Thus does he stay time." R.B. Fuller, 1928 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 07:04:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lee Clanton Subject: Re: *!STUDENTS!* Add YOUR Name to the Nat'l Student Directory !! In-Reply-To: from "Eric J. Carlino" at Mar 7, 94 10:33:54 pm Greetings to Students across the USA: I am working on a project to compile a phone book for college/university students. The unique characteristic of this registry will be that it includes interests/hobbies that can be queried - so you can easily find other students who have similar interests as you, and begin correspondence. To make this a success, I need EVERYONE to respond! Spread the word! Make copies of this message and have ALL of your friends respond!! To respond, fill out the form below, and reply via email. It is very important that you use the form as it is below, because I have a program to parse all of the information. Just fill in your data and return this whole message as it is. Note: to anyone who has too much time on their hands and wants to mess this up by sending phony names, I have included in my program a "detective" to search for phony names and exclude them. Duplicates will also be discarded. So don't waste your time! The end result of this effort will probably a system like this: You send mail requesting all of the different categories and available values for each category on file. You only have to do this once. Then you send mail requesting a list of all students who have X value in Y category. For example, who live in a certain state, or are in a particular major, or have a certain hobby. Now you have a list of people with interests similar to your own, with whom you can correspond. OK, here is the form. Fill in as many of the fields as you can. Simply overwrite the sample entries: --==+> START FORM <+==-- First Name: Lee Last Name: Clanton Gender: M Birthdate: 12/5/44 email address: leec@ncatfyv.uark.edu Current ------- Address: 1445 Giles Rd. City: Fayetteville State: AR Zip: 72703 Phone: 501/443-1981 Home ---- Address: 1445 Giles Rd. City: Fayetteville State: AR Zip: 72703 Phone: 501/443-1981 School currently attending: U of Arkansas City, State of school: Fayetteville, AR Major (list only one): computer science Minor (list only one): Degree currently seeking (list only one): M.S Year in school: grad Interests/hobbies (list up to a dozen, one per line, starting on next line): 1. Woodworking 2. Carving 3. Lapidary 4. Photography 5. Metal Working 6. Leather Brading 7. Leather Stamping 8. Fly tying 9. Drafting 10. Mountain Man History 11. Native American History 12. Inventing --==+> END FORM <+==-- Thank you for your support. I'll let everyone know when the system is ready to go on-line. -- **************************************************************** * Lee Clanton - Sys Admin () ()()() ()()() * * leec@ncatfyv.uark.edu () () () * * National Center for Appropriate Tech. () ()() ()() * * Appropritae Tech Transfer for Rural Areas () () () * * (800) 346-9140 Ext 114 () ()()() ()()() * * P.O. Box 3657 () * * Fayetteville, Arkansas 72702 ()()()()()()()() * **************************************************************** * Smith & Wesson: The ultimate Point & Click user interface. * **************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:43:38 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ed Wright Subject: WorldGame BBS? Can anyone direct me to any sites and/or newsgroups related to Bucky's WorldGame concepts? Specifically I'm looking for some place the might be collecting the w hole earth data and statistics that is uses. Thanks. --- Ed Wright ubs!edwhome@uunet.uu.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 08:46:13 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ed Wright Subject: World Game BBS? Can anyone direct me to any sites and/or newsgroups related to Bucky's "World Game" concepts? Specifically I'm looking for some place the might be collecting the whole earth data and statistics that is uses. Thanks. --- Ed Wright ubs!edwhome@uunet.uu.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 09:18:16 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mark Stowe Subject: Re: Generation of wealth >that someone as a means to [their] ends". If everyone gives freely of >themselves without expecting anything in return, we will all have more >than we could ever possibly dream. And because this makes so much sense, If human nature worked this way, utopian communities would have grown and overtaken our social structure, instead of peaking and dying after a few generations as they have throughout history and across cultures. Which is not to imply that I think that we can't do a lot better than the current state of capitalism, or that I think utopian communities are an inevitable dead end: I think a world or a community where everyone is on-line opens up as yet unexploited new possibilities for both mainstream economies and utopian communities. It is my strong personal recommendation that everyone unfamiliar with the game theory/evolutionary modeling of altruistic behavior, would do well to read up in this area (an adequate if less than inspired starting point would be the article on page 76 of the current, March 1994, Scientific American). Capitalism is currently a necessary evil in my view because of the presence of 'defectors': those whose power grows at the expense of those who volunteer their labor. Essentially my hope for the future lies with my belief that on-line communities provide unprecedented possibilities for getting around this problem, because 1) they provide enormous power to organize boycotts and otherwise isolate defectors and 2) they increase the power of the altruists by virtue of the fact that altruistic creations in an on-line community (helpful programs, enjoyable works of art) last much longer (the normal rules of entropy do not apply). (I think that the problem of cheaters in an on-line community as discussed in the article on page 90 of the same Sci-Am issue can be overcome by a number of technological tricks - sorry I don't have time to construct a bibliography at the moment) But I would be most interested in a thread or a new discussion group where we talk about the *specifics* of such possibilities and the results of current efforts of pioneers who are working toward a better future through cybertechnology (does such a discussion group already exist? can anyone direct me there? is anyone on green net listening?). I'll offer a sample of ideas next time, at this moment this message, as humble as it may be, is as much altruism as I can afford. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Stowe c/o Jon Reiskind Department of Zoology University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 USA E-mail: MKS@ZOO.UFL.EDU phone: 904 373 3202, 904 392 1187 fax: 904 392 3704 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 11:51:57 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mark Stowe Subject: Re: Generation of wealth >that someone as a means to [their] ends". If everyone gives freely of >themselves without expecting anything in return, we will all have more >than we could ever possibly dream. And because this makes so much sense, If human nature worked this way, utopian communities would have grown and overtaken our social structure, instead of peaking and dying after a few generations as they have throughout history and across cultures. Which is not to say that I think that we can't do a lot better than the current state of capitalism, or that I think utopian communities are an inevitable dead end: I think a world or a community where everyone is on-line opens up as yet unexploited new possibilities for both mainstream economies and utopian communities. It is my strong personal recommendation that everyone unfamiliar with the game theory/evolutionary modeling of altruistic behavior, would do well to read up in this area (an adequate if less than inspired starting point would be the article on page 76 of the current, March 1994, Scientific American). Capitalism is currently a necessary evil in my view because of the presence of 'defectors': those whose power grows at the expense of those who volunteer their labor. Essentially my hope for the future lies with my belief that on-line communities provide unprecedented possibilities for getting around this problem, because 1) they provide enormous power to organize boycotts and otherwise isolate defectors and 2) they increase the power of the altruists by virtue of the fact that altruistic creations in an on-line community (helpful programs, enjoyable works of art) last much longer (the normal rules of entropy do not apply). (I think that the problem of cheaters in an on-line community as discussed in the article on page 90 of the same Sci-Am issue can be overcome by a number of technological tricks - sorry I don't have time to construct a bibliography at the moment) But I would be most interested in a thread or a new discussion group where we talk about the *specifics* of such possibilities and the results of current efforts of pioneers who are working toward a better future through cybertechnology (does such a discussion group already exist? can anyone direct me there? is anyone on green net listening?). I'll offer a sample of ideas next time, at this moment this message, as humble as it may be, is as much altruism as I can afford. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Stowe c/o Jon Reiskind Department of Zoology University of Florida Gainesville, FL 32611 USA E-mail: MKS@ZOO.UFL.EDU phone: 904 373 3202, 904 392 1187 fax: 904 392 3704 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 09:41:27 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gordon Wong Subject: Re: *!STUDENTS!* Add YOUR Name to the Nat'l Student Directory !! First Name: Gordon Last Name: Wong Gender: M Birthdate: 12/08/69 email address: wong@venus.rcc.com Current ------- Address: 12 Azalea Ct City: North Plainfield State: NJ Zip: 07060 Phone: 908/757-6364 Home ---- Address: 12 Azalea Ct City: North Plainfield State: NJ Zip: 07060 Phone: 908/757-6364 School currently attending: U of wherever City, State of school: New Brunswick, NJ Major (list only one): psychology Minor (list only one): philosophy Degree currently seeking (list only one): B.S. Year in school: sr Interests/hobbies (list up to a dozen, one per line, starting on next line): 1. roleplaying 2. wargaming 3. live roleplaying 4. camping 5. cooking 6. traveling 7. sailing 8. bridge 9. public service 10. computer/video games 11. science fiction 12. kung fu movies ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 20:16:29 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: kurtis <73602.3025@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: bucky balls The question of how to make your own "bucky balls" is completely answered in the Jan. '94 issue of the American Journal of Physics p85-8. The title of the article is "Production and separation of C60 and C70 as and under- graduate experiment." Though I haven't attempted myself, the authors give a detailed account of the steps and apparatus necessary to produce your own "bucky balls." Isn't is beautiful that the third and most pure form of solid carbon was named after Bucky himself?(Puts him right up there with diamonds! ;) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 17:17:13 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Manning Subject: Re: bucky balls I am fairly new to this list but must say I'm surprised and delighted by the discussion of Bucky and associated topics. I would like to know more about what has been discovered about bucky balls - just a laymens perspective - I'm not a scientist but I am a Fuller fan. Dennis Manning WK (619)872-0687 Project Development Fax (619)872-0678 Cal Trans Dist. 09 e-mail t9dm@t9ew.dot.ca.gov Bishop, CA 93546 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 01:24:12 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "CRAIG M. ROSA" Subject: Is BFI online? Date sent: 9-MAR-1994 Hi: As a new subscriber I must say this list is quite engaging. I am interested in a lot of bucky's ideas, but am by no means an expert. I came to be interested a couple years ago when I worked as an assistant to Robert Snyder, Allegra Fuller-Snyder's Husband, and worked out of the Fuller home. Needless to say, it was one of the most interesting part-time jobs I have ever had. Working with Mr. Snyder would have been engaging enough (he is an academy award winning documentarian, and a wonderful man), but I couldn't help but succumb to all of the bucky artifacts, books, films, and stories that surrounded me. It was quite a museum and I loved working in the backyard dome ( anyone who has worked in a dome knows what I mean ). At any rate, I have since moved and would love to contact some of the friends I made over at the Buckminster Fuller Institute. I know that they are moving soon (moved?). Is there an email address where I can reach these folks? Is anyone on the list at BFI? Many thanks in advance, Craig Rosa (pining away for Southern California) vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv Craig M. Rosa Home Phone: (718) 834-6894 Email: rosac@ACFcluster.NYU.EDU BCM Phone: (718) 735-4432 M.A. student, Performance Studies/Museum Studies, NYU ,^^^^^^^^ PT Greenhouse Instructor, The Brooklyn Children's Museum ,^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 02:33:44 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: 4D Solutions Bucky defined wealth as life support. Karl feels wealth is what humans get credit for because it is produced through their work. This is also the Marxist view: that only labor creates value. Given Bucky's definition, we see the sun and ecosystems as wealth-producing, but outside the cash system. Most of our life support (wealth) is not owing to human labor, but to automated, cybernetic, natural processes. Agriculture is hard work, but it wouldn't happen at all without nature's contribution. Given Fuller's "cosmic accounting" (looking at wealth production with or without human components), it appears that no matter how hard we work, we individually get more life support than we produce. We do not "pay our own way" as a species. Human language is more like an ecosystem asset than a capitalist one: we work with it without paying for the privilege. But language is not just a pile of words in the dictionary. Language is sense, knowledge, a way of ordering experience. The question is: how quickly will certain intellectual assets cross the line from cash-accounted assets to ecosystemic ones -- how quickly will our metaphysical work be subsumed within Language? How will language masters be rewarded, if not with cash revenue from end users? Encryption and computerization offer the possibility of trafficing in zillions of currencies. You will gain access to assets you have demonstrated your ability to expertly use. Same as now. Highly recommended: The Economy of Ideas: A framework for rethinking patents and copyrights in the Digital Age (Everything you know about intellectual property is wrong). By John Perry Barlow in the March 94 issue of WIRED. Barlow is co-founder of the Electronic Frontier Foundation and lyricist for the Grateful Dead. "Perhaps those who are part of the problem will simply quarantine themselves in court, while those who are part of the solution will create a new society based, at first, on piracy and freebooting. It may well be that when the current system of intellectual property law has collapsed, as seems inevitable, that no new legal structure will arise in its place." -- Kirby Urner ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 08:31:52 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: leo elliott <76440.1416@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: ephemeralization of economies? Kirby: "Bucky defined wealth as life support." I seem to also recall some definitions involving the notion of "forward-looking days" (as in, "a society is as wealthy as the cumulative total of its citizenry's forward-looking days", or something to that effect) -- which definition would also acknowledge, imo, the more subtle and psychological factorings which go into such definitions. Not to say that a citizen's ability to look forward is not greatly dependent on current life support, but that for that citizen to feel "wealthy", s/he must needs have some feeling of a stake in the future, some wind in the sails, and not just a massive gilded luxury liner, which may be dead in the water. (which would enable an explanation of why the fisherman in his dhow might feel wealthier than the sportsman in his yacht.) Kirby: "...we individually get more life support than we produce. We do not 'pay our way' as a species." Indeed. But insofar at there is some "happiness" or contentment-factor implicit in the notion of wealth, I would submit that it (happiness) is a "value-added" which may or may not come after the bills (life-support) have been paid. Whether it does or not seems directly related to Kirby's next points about language: "Human language is more like an ecosystem asset than a capitalist one: we work with it without paying for the privilege." [Recall Bucky's comments about how expensive has been humans' acquisition of all the words in our lexicon, how many may have paid with their lives for misunderstanding the difference between red and pink, say, in some primitive Neanderthal warning one of his fellows, "The red berries are great, but watch out for the pink ones." My favorite e.g. of this comes from Guy Murchie's "Seven Mysteries" wherein he relates the tale from one of the Napoleonic campaigns wherein a sneezing and sniffling general is overhead by one of his subordinates as saying "Ma sacre' toux!" ("My damned cough!") which the subordinate hears as "Massacre' tous!" ("Kill them all!")] Kirby: "The question is: how quickly will certain intellectual assets cross the line from cash-accounted assets [on the MORT-gage system!] to ecosystemic ones -- how quickly will our metaphysical work be subsumed within Language? How will language masters be rewarded, if not with cash revenue from end users?" -- Not quickly enough, for my lifetime. Kirby: "Encryption and computerization offer the possibility of trafficing in zillions of currencies." -- Precisely. Back to barter. What becomes of the Financial Accounting Standards Bureau, the Securities and Exchange Commission, and all the other self-perpetuating GRUNCH-oriented watchdog bureaucracies, once, if all this pans out as some like Brand hypothesize, we're back to sealing unregulated deals for licit or illicit merchandise on an encrypted handshake? Is this the return of "real" free-market, entrepreneurial, great-pirate capitalism? "You will gain access to assets you have demonstrated your ability to expertly use." {Amen.} Reminding me of the old socialist nostrum, "From each according to ability, to each according to need." Bucky was certainly as aware as any of how scarcity and fear had been built into our ordained economic frames (he discussed same with the Beards, of "Economic Interpretation of the Constitution of the United States", way back). It strikes me that the clipper chip effort is a rear-guard action on the part of the GRUNCH hierarchy to reassert these factors (scarcity and fear) into the info-economy. Too little too late? * * * * * * Thanks for the ref to the Barlow article -- is this part of a book or only available in WIRED? I no longer log on to the WELL, but perhaps this is available electronically? Leo Elliott "All the best work is done the way ants do things -- by tiny, untiring and regular additions." -- Lafcadio Hearn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Mar 1994 10:59:41 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: leo elliott <76440.1416@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: ephemeralization of economies? Sorry again if this is a repeat -- 1st attempt seems to bounce. If this _is_ a dupe, would someone please let me know and henceforth I will disregard the bounce notice! Thanx. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Kirby: "Bucky defined wealth as life support." I seem to also recall some definitions involving the notion of "forward-looking days" (as in, "a society is as wealthy as the cumulative total of its citizenry's forward-looking days", or something to that effect) -- which definition would also acknowledge, imo, the more subtle and psychological factorings which go into such definitions. Not to say that a citizen's ability to look forward is not greatly dependent on current life support, but that for that citizen to feel "wealthy", s/he must needs have some feeling of a stake in the future, some wind in the sails, and not just a massive gilded luxury liner, which may be dead in the water. (which would enable an explanation of why the fisherman in his dhow might feel wealthier than the sportsman in his yacht.) Kirby: "...we individually get more life support than we produce. We do not 'pay our way' as a species." Indeed. But insofar at there is some "happiness" or contentment-factor implicit in the notion of wealth, I would submit that it (happiness) is a "value-added" which may or may not come after the bills (life-support) have been paid. Whether it does or not seems directly related to Kirby's next points about language: "Human language is more like an ecosystem asset than a capitalist one: we work with it without paying for the privilege." [Recall Bucky's comments about how expensive has been humans' acquisition of all the words in our lexicon, how many may have paid with their lives for misunderstanding the difference between red and pink, say, in some primitive Neanderthal warning one of his fellows, "The red berries are great, but watch out for the pink ones." My favorite e.g. of this comes from Guy Murchie's "Seven Mysteries" wherein he relates the tale from one of the Napoleonic campaigns wherein a sneezing and sniffling general is overhead by one of his subordinates as saying "Ma sacre' toux!" ("My damned cough!") which the subordinate hears as "Massacre' tous!" ("Kill them all!")] Kirby: "The question is: how quickly will certain intellectual assets cross the line from cash-accounted assets [on the MORT-gage system!] to ecosystemic ones -- how quickly will our metaphysical work be subsumed within Language? How will language masters be rewarded, if not with cash revenue from end users?" -- Not quickly enough, for my lifetime. Kirby: "Encryption and computerization offer the possibility of trafficing in zillions of currencies." -- Precisely. Back to barter. What becomes of the Financial Accounting Standards Bureau, the Securities and Exchange Commission, and all the other self-perpetuating GRUNCH-oriented watchdog bureaucracies, once, if all this pans out as some like Brand hypothesize, we're back to sealing unregulated deals for licit or illicit merchandise on an encrypted handshake? Is this the return of "real" free-market, entrepreneurial, great-pirate capitalism? "You will gain access to assets you have demonstrated your ability to expertly use." {Amen.} Reminding me of the old socialist nostrum, "From each according to ability, to each according to need." Bucky was certainly as aware as any of how scarcity and fear had been built into our ordained economic frames (he discussed same with the Beards, of "Economic Interpretation of the Constitution of the United States", way back). It strikes me that the clipper chip effort is a rear-guard action on the part of the GRUNCH hierarchy to reassert these factors (scarcity and fear) into the info-economy. Too little too late? * * * * * * Thanks for the ref to the Barlow article -- is this part of a book or only available in WIRED? I no longer log on to the WELL, but perhaps this is available electronically? Leo Elliott "All the best work is done the way ants do things -- by tiny, untiring and regular additions." -- Lafcadio Hearn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Mar 1994 20:20:22 +0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Eugene Holman Organization: University of Helsinki Subject: Where to find a satellite image? Path: nuntius Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geograph X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1 Distribution: world Organization: University of Helsinki/Dept. of Geology From: Jorma Palmen Subject: Where to find a satellite image from Santorini/Greece? Hello I'm planning to make an excursion to the island of santorini located in the sea of Aegea. Our major interest concerns about the satelite images of the Aegea sea area taken in long (thermal) infrared channel. If you would know where to find these "hard-to-get" images, I would be grateful to know. If the image archive is by some way difficult to use, would it be nice to have basic information how to login and find the image wanted. yours thankfully Jorma Palmen palmen@hylka.helsinki.fi P.S. Would anyone tell me the internet address of ESA (European Space Agency) data bank (FTP or TELNET address) same ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Mar 1994 16:30:22 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: henri42267@AOL.COM Subject: RBF SUBSCRIBE godesic Michael Henry ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Mar 1994 16:49:07 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "c.p.townsend" Subject: Re: SUBSCRIBE geodesic Michael Henry In-Reply-To: <94Mar13.163407est.576733-2@router.mail.cornell.edu> from "henri42267@aol.com" at Mar 13, 94 04:30:22 pm Hi --- you have sent your subscription command to the geodesic list, not the listserver that manages it. What this means is that your subscribe message just went to everybody on the list. Which means you'll probably be subscribed, but you have delivered your message several thousand times more than necessary.... Try addressing your command to listserv@wherever instead of geodesic@wherever. You haven't harmed anything, but you've given a lot of people an extra e-mail message to delete.... btw, I mean this as a friendly message...not a flame. townsend@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Mar 1994 16:57:36 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "c.p.townsend" Subject: Re: SUBSCRIBE geodesic Michael Henry In-Reply-To: <94Mar13.165308est.576736-4@router.mail.cornell.edu> from "c.p.townsend" at Mar 13, 94 04:49:07 pm whoops.....silly me. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Mar 1994 23:41:00 CDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "MAMISHEV, ALEXANDER VALENTINO" Organization: Texas A&M University OpenVMScluster Subject: where to find satellite images of europe? Hello, Actually, the subject says it all: where can I find satellite images of Europe? Thanks in advance, Alexander Mamishev avm1993@zeus.tamu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 08:17:21 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Barbara Sansing Subject: Re: where to find satellite images of europe? ITEK OPTICAL SYSTEMS, DIVISION OF LITTON 10 Maguire Road Lexington, MA Tel. 617-276-2000 Itek Optical, in the development of cameras, etc. for the Space program tested it's product by photographing all of the major and interesting minor locations around the world. I don't know if they're just archived or if`they ar are available. I work with ex-itek employees and have seen many of the photographs. Good luck. ...I'm new to this network. A long-time fan of B. Fuller, I dream of a geodesic home... Barbara Sansing ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 13:38:00 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Subject: Science Kick Conference in Philadelphia This announcement has come to my attention. I know very little about the project, but addresses and phone numbers of contacts are included. Do Enjoy! Chris Fearnley fearnlcj@duvm SCIENCE KICK CONFERENCE SUMMARY: What promises to be a program of interest to scientists and science lovers is scheduled for presentation at the University City Science Center in Philadelphia from May 18, 1994 through June 30, 1994. The five-fold symmetry exhibit of Arthur Loeb's Harvard students will be featured in the exhibit hall. There will be a one-day symposium on May 23 featuring such authorities as Dr. Richard Smalley of Rice University, co-discoverer of the C-60 molecule, which he dubbed Buckminsterfullerene; Dr. Arthur L. Loeb, head of the Department of Visual and Environmental Studies at Harvard University; and Arthur C. Clarke, noted author, will speak via satellite from his residence in Sri Lanka. LIST OF TOPICS AND PRESENTERS: Bucky Basics David Koski, Fuller Scholar R.B. Fuller's original T module as a five fold building block will be presented by David Koski, a Fuller scholar. Koski is the first person to have modularized Buckminsterfullerene. Five Fold Symmetry Dr. A. Loeb, Harvard University Dr. Arthur L. Loeb will lecture on five fold symmetry. His 3-D science class at Harvard University will present examples of fractals, quasi-crystals, chaos and Buckminsterfullerene as part of the art-in-science display at the Science Center's Klein gallery. Fountains of Paradise Arthur C. Clarke, Author A discussion with Arthur C. Clarke about the recent discovery of Buckytubes and their application to Clarke's Earth-to-space elevator concept. The space shuttle Atlantis recently performed experiments on this concept. The topic's title is taken from Clarke's book _Fountains of Paradise_. The Atlantis crew carried the book into orbit and upon their return sent the autographed copy to Clarke. This helped lead to NASA's request to Clark to participate in the July 8th joint Japanese-American flight of the Space Suttle Columbia. The flight is hoped to have on-board a soccar-ball with C-60 in it and an experiment involving the processing of Buckytubes. During the flight it is hoped there will be a live conversation with Clarke; meanwhile, the World Cup will come to its conclusion on Earth. The upshot all this is for people to make a connection between science and sport via the relationship between the soccar ball and the molecule. Fullerenes Dr. Richard Smalley, Rice University A general discussion of the carbon molecule will be conducted by Dr. Richard Smalley, the discoverer and namer of the Buckminsterfullerene. Chemistry of the Buckyballs Dr. George Kenyon, Univ. of Ca., S.F. Dr. Fred Wudl, Univ. of Ca., S.B. Dr. Kenyon and Dr. Wudl will conduct a symposium on the Fullerenes exciting advances in combating the AIDS virus and other diseases. Science Kick: C-60 and the William G. Reach, Science Kick, Inc. World Cup Connection Part of the conference's outreach, this activity will involve youths in a program designed to show the connection between the C-60 molecule and its structural resemblance to the soccer ball in conjunction with the World Cup Soccer Championships to be held in the U.S. in 1994. The University of Pennsylvania will provide C-60. CONFERENCE ORGANIZERS: This project is being organized by the University City Science Center (UCSC), a non-profit corporation established in 1963. UCSC stands at the interface of academia and industry and has extensive networks in both arenas. The mission of the Science Center is to promote the application of scientific and technical knowledge to improve the quality of life and to serve as a science and technology based economic development force. DONATIONS REQUESTED: Although the speakers mentioned above are confirmed, we still need donations to get matching funds and make it a reality. Send donations and inquiries to the address below: Robert Krutsick University City Science Center 3624 Market Street Philadelphia PA 19104 (215)387-2255 For further information contact Bill Reach at the following address: Science Kick, Inc. 420 S 19th ST, APT 15B Philadelphia PA 19146 (215)546-7948 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Mar 1994 13:05:27 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Manning Subject: Fuller's early life In 1927 BF decided to devote his time only to those things which advantaged the whole of humanity and not to pursue "money making". In that way he could be maximally effective and nature would see to it that he could make his way in the world. All this according to his book "Critical Path". The book is vague about how he in fact did pay his bills. What were his experiences when he first made the break? Can anyone suggest a source on biographical info? Dennis Manning t9dm@t9ew.dot.ca.gov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 16:52:57 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: BROUSSCA%UCCLR2%WPCGATE%UCCLR2@PMDF.UC.EDU Subject: Fuller's early life -re --Boundary (ID Pq7P8gz5MFYNTrJMP7wOFQ) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Although I don't have any references handy, B. Fuller was independently wealthy. He descended from the Cunninghams of Boston, a wealthy shipping family. cynthia.broussard@uc.edu Files: {ENVELOPE from GEODESIC} --Boundary (ID Pq7P8gz5MFYNTrJMP7wOFQ) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII From: GEODESIC (owner-geodesic) Date: Wednesday, March 16, 1994 12:33 PM Subject: Fuller's early life Mail received from: GEODESIC Files: { FILE(S) Received via MR_TO_WP Gateway } --Boundary (ID Pq7P8gz5MFYNTrJMP7wOFQ) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII In 1927 BF decided to devote his time only to those things which advantaged the whole of humanity and not to pursue "money making". In that way he could be maximally effective and nature would see to it that he could make his way in the world. All this according to his book "Critical Path". The book is vague about how he in fact did pay his bills. What were his experiences when he first made the break? Can anyone suggest a source on biographical info? Dennis Manning t9dm@t9ew.dot.ca.gov --Boundary (ID Pq7P8gz5MFYNTrJMP7wOFQ)-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Mar 1994 18:37:28 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: leo elliott <76440.1416@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: fuller's early life For a general intro to Bucky's life, I would recommend Hugh Kenner's "Bucky: A Guided Tour of Buckminster Fuller", William Morrow, 1973. And in many of Bucky's early works he makes quite a lot of reference to his own early life and experiences (see esp. "Nine Chains t the Moon", 1938, and "Ideas and Integrities", 1963). While I know offhand of no reference to Bucky's connection to the wealthy Cunningham shipbuilding family, he did marry Anne Hewlett, of the later Hewlett Packard computer co., I believe. (If this is not so, please correct, as I am pulling most of this from long ago research.) Bucky was raised in Maine, and according to his own story, squandered the money his family had staked him to for his Harvard education by going down to NYC to take out the entire chorus line of the Ziegfield Follies (the original wild and crazy guy?). After getting kicked out, reinstated, and kicked out again, Bucky ended up at the Naval academy, where, so he says, he was amongst the last of the classes to be trained in such things as full command authority, meaning that he was given the type of education that trained him in all phases of naval operations, on the premise that should he be on a boat that was attacked, all the superior officers lost, etc., then he would have to take over the ship. Among his accomplishments was the design of a type of crane for the retrieval of airplanes that overshot the runways of aircraft carriers. Prior to his epiphany in Lake Michigan in 1927, he also worked in a family business designing some type of construction brick. He tried several other types of work, but basically felt as though he was a failure at all/most of them, and in addition lost an infant daughter to spinal meningitis which he blamed on himself, attributing the disease to the poor living conditions he afforded his young family in some gangster-infested tenement in Chicago, all leading up to his being ready to throw himself into Lake Michigan in 1927. I realize this is all pretty sketchy, but it's been a few years since I've familiarized myself with the chronology of events. My impression is that Bucky may have indeed come from a priveleged background, but felt more than embarassed by his wild and crazy youth to the point where he may have tried to overcompensate by being successful in the business world, "playing by the rules" as he used to say, and when he realized that playing by the rules as he had been taught them had led him to the point of utter despair, this was when he realized that maybe he needed to look at the rules and begin to trust only his own experience and what his senses told him. Interestingly, after he "heard the voice" which told him, among other things, that "the significance of you will forever remain obscure" and "you do not belong to you", he supposedly didn't speak to another human except his wife for the next two years. (Remember that this is the Roarin' Twenties, when great fortunes are being made and lost with great rapidity, so I imagine it would have been quite easy for someone of Bucky's ambition to have gotten quite depressed when he found himself unable to succeed as those around him were.) Hope this helps to provide some leads. Leo Elliott Charlottesville, VA 76440.1416@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Mar 1994 15:41:20 LCL Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Brien Subject: E-MAIL I have not received any mail in the past several days. Is there a problem with the server of have I been dropped from the list? Please reply ASAP. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 11:20:58 BST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Holt Subject: Re: E-MAIL I have not received any mail in the past several days. Is there a problem with the server of have I been dropped from the list? Please reply ASAP. I'm getting mail... occasionally... well, I got yours. Richard ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 12:49:13 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DAMICO@GELMAN.CIRC.GWU.EDU Subject: Re: SUBSCRIBE geodesic Michael Henry In response to Michael Henry's attempt to subscribe C.P. Townsend writes > Hi --- you have sent your subscription command to the geodesic list, > not the listserver that manages it. What this means is that your > subscribe message just went to everybody on the list. Which means > you'll probably be subscribed, but you have delivered your message several > thousand times more than necessary.... > Try addressing your command to listserv@wherever instead of geodesic@wherever. > You haven't harmed anything, but you've given a lot of people an extra e-mail > message to delete.... > btw, I mean this as a friendly message...not a flame. > townsend@panix.com Can someone help me to understand how I step into flames sometimes when I don't mean to? I appreciate that C.P clarified himself but I I never would have even considered that this was a flame. The fact that C.P addressed the possibility directly and in advance may mean that he is better at anticipating what might turn into a flame. I know this is kind of off the Fuller track, but since Bucky was a proponent of Education Automation and since the internet listservs seem to be an early form of his vision, dealing with the interpersonal issues that result aren't so far afield. Consider this a request for guidance from someone less than fully schooled in Cyberspace ettiquette [sp]. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 15:49:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tim Travis Subject: Re: SUBSCRIBE geodesic Michael Henry I think that C.P. Townsend _stated_ overtley [sp?] that his post was not a flame for because _so many_ 'netters automatically assume that a negative post, or one that draws attention to an error, is going to be assumed to be a FLAME. This is due at least in part to the fact that in Cyberspace, no one has a physical body or face that can be read for context. Thus the use of the "smileys" et al, to give context. I, too, make it plain that I am not flaming when I send corrective posts, for the same [I assume; it is my reason, if not C.P.'s] reason that C.P. Townsend did. BTW, welcome to the great 'Net. Stay around a while, and you will eventually develope the appropriate 'nettiquet' :-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Mar 1994 10:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Sklaroff Subject: Re: E-MAIL In-Reply-To: <199403282043.AA22619@mailhub.cc.columbia.edu> On Mon, 28 Mar 1994, John Brien wrote: > I have not received any mail in the past several days. Is there a problem > with the server of have I been dropped from the list? > > Please reply ASAP. > Me too. Michael Sklaroff ms401@columbia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Mar 1994 23:01:02 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bernice Moschini Subject: Re: E-MAIL I have the same question. Was d going to ask fro re-subscription. Help???? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Mar 1994 08:54:15 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Barbara Sansing Subject: Re: E-MAIL New to this list, I assumed that Geodesic folks were just not too active. Can someone who's been around awhile let me know what to expect. The only other list I participate in passes on a minimum of 20 postings each day. How many subscribers are there to Geodesic? Any background information would be helpful. ...Barbara Sansing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 12:00:22 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Subject: Re: E-MAIL In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 29 Mar 1994 08:54:15 EST from On Tue, 29 Mar 1994 08:54:15 EST Barbara Sansing said: >New to this list, I assumed that Geodesic folks were just not too active. >Can someone who's been around awhile let me know what to expect. The only >other list I participate in passes on a minimum of 20 postings each day. >How many subscribers are there to Geodesic? Any background information >would be helpful. The list goes through periods of intense activity then dies down to virtual silence (like it has been for a few weeks now). Several knowlegable people monitor the list so it's a good source of information and a place to have questions answered. I believe that if the list had a FAQ it would have a constant, higher level of activity. I'm working on this project, but time is a bit scarce. If anyone has any Q&A lists that I can build upon, I'd be glad to incorporate it. Just to make this happen, let me declare that a preliminary version will be released by June 1 even if no one offers their help. I have all the archives for the list on my home PC, so that will come in handy getting good breadth with the FAQ. > >...Barbara Sansing Chris Fearnley cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 14:02:00 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Roy Klassen Subject: Dome design I am also new to Geodesic. I have downloaded some of the archives. This was helpful. I am interested in some 'cheap and nasty' software to help design domes. Fancy graphics is not necessary. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 16:18:29 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Barbara Sansing Subject: Re: E-MAIL Thanks for your response, Chris. It's good to know there's someone out there.