From MAILER-DAEMON@netaxs.com Thu Nov 16 17:10:48 1995 Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [128.205.2.1]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA20574 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:06:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199511161806.NAA20574@access.netaxs.com> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3861; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:04:23 EST Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3108; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:04:13 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:04:00 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8b)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9507" To: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 02:13:41 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: smtc5@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU Organization: University of Toledo Subject: Re: exact digital world map ? In Article <3smk8n$jr3@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> halanek@ibm.net writes: >Hi, > >Does someone knows, where I can get a good world map, which is not saved >as a picture, but where the lines of the continents are saved as points ? >Because I want to zoom to the map, and I want to view it as a globe. If >someone knows a ftp server, please contact me via E - mail, because I'm not >very often in this newsgroup. > >Bye/2 > >FROM Rainer WITH OS/2 3.00 > Please post as well. Thanks, Steve MatherAterTh ankss ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 12:01:49 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: GLOBAL ENERGY GRID Hello, To solve our energy problems: The image of Bucky on his sailboat comes to mind -- the use of simple engineering to tap the vast natural energy flow of our planet to move a boat -- without the continuous expenditure of finite resources -- perhaps what we need is a new style or type of technology based on styles or types of energy that can be locally operative (thus avoiding the inefficiencies and possible misuse of any centralized system) -- just as a sail allows one to use the energy of natural air flow to traverse the oceans -- I believe there can be an equally simple method of letting each community, house, dome, car, etc. be energy self-sufficient and operate by tapping natural planetary energy flow -- and that it is adaptable localization that should be our goal. This could be done by using solar heat, wind, oceanic motion, etc -- whatever is locally operative. Perhaps there is some means of using the geometric relations of synergy to tape the precession of our planet and the weather for energy generation? If we want to get energy to all people as rapidly as possible then we need to go where they are and show them how to set up a local energy generation system that they themselves can maintain (assuming that they would really like to change their lifestyles accordingly). We could certainly design-engineer a great variety of natural energy devices and make them available to all (been done in many books). I read somehere that a large geodesic dome made of the right materials would actually float like a bubble if the air inside were only 1 degree warmer than the outside air -- this can be done with passive solar and add a sail and solar propeller we have a natural air transport system (strange scifi thought I guess). It seems to me that the only sustainable and sufficiently flexible energy system is one that is locally adapted based on tapping the natural energy flow that our local cosmic system generates all the time anyway. Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 09:55:48 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: GLOBAL ENERGY GRID In-Reply-To: <950701120147_106138486@aol.com>; from "Patrick Alessandra Jr." at Jul 1, 95 12:01 pm Patrick Alessandra Jr. writes: > > Hello, > > To solve our energy problems: The image of Bucky on his sailboat comes to > mind -- the use of simple engineering to tap the vast natural energy flow of > our planet to move a boat -- without the continuous expenditure of finite > resources -- perhaps what we need is a new style or type of technology based > on styles or types of energy that can be locally operative (thus avoiding the > inefficiencies and possible misuse of any centralized system) -- just as a > sail allows one to use the energy of natural air flow to traverse the oceans > -- I believe there can be an equally simple method of letting each community, > house, dome, car, etc. be energy self-sufficient and operate by tapping > natural planetary energy flow -- and that it is adaptable localization that > should be our goal. This could be done by using solar heat, wind, oceanic > motion, etc -- whatever is locally operative. Perhaps there is some means of > using the geometric relations of synergy to tape the precession of our planet > and the weather for energy generation? If we want to get energy to all > people as rapidly as possible then we need to go where they are and show them > how to set up a local energy generation system that they themselves can > maintain (assuming that they would really like to change their lifestyles > accordingly). We could certainly design-engineer a great variety of natural > energy devices and make them available to all (been done in many books). > > I read somehere that a large geodesic dome made of the right materials would > actually float like a bubble if the air inside were only 1 degree warmer than > the outside air -- this can be done with passive solar and add a sail and > solar propeller we have a natural air transport system (strange scifi thought > I guess). It seems to me that the only sustainable and sufficiently flexible > energy system is one that is locally adapted based on tapping the natural > energy flow that our local cosmic system generates all the time anyway. > > > Patrick > .- > Bucky's scientifically designed house would actually capture more energy than it used! See _Critical Path_ pages 310-15. For hot air dome balloons see _Critical Path_ pages 336-7. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 22:25:40 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Lewis Subject: Re: Geodesic toys >Vmountain writes: >> >> you can get kits from Edmund Scientific Catalog to do geo-toys and others. >> You can also contact Avionics Plastics Corp. 55 Kennedy Dr. Hauppauge, NY >> 11788 (516) 231-4900. They make some kits, as well as sell plastic hubs so >> you can make your own with wood dowels. I got mine from Edmund, and called >> them about their OMNI Hubs using 3/16" dowels that are available from >> hardware stores. The hubs are about $2.50 for a 25 pack, w/$5 shipping. >> they 3/4/5/6 spoke hubs. >> >> Bruce Carroll >> .- >> > >Bruce, > >Do you know of any e-mail addresses for these model-building kits? >I'm trying to build up my Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute list. >If you haven't seen it, I'll e-mail it to you--it's up to 10 pages now and >growing! Do you have any e-mail addresses for dome companies? (Or any other >electronic address that's relevant to Fuller's work.) > >Joe > > > >-- > >JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 >850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 >CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. > > I use the Ikoso-Kits. No e-mail address but snail mail is: Ikoso Kits 28667 Spencer Creek Road Eugene, OR 97405 Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:08:13 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SELF-CONTAINED HOMES FULLER'S SELF-CONTAINED GEODESIC DOME HOMES "The Fly's Eye uses a very few types of nestable, mass-produced fiberglass, sheet aluminum of thin guage, or polyester-coated sheet steel components that, when assembled, produce a 5/8 sphere of the 'Hex-Pent' geodesic configuration." "As with the ports and pores of all organic systems, the size and shape of these openings sort, sieve and classify the in-bound and out-bound physical-component traffic of metabolic regeneration which the Fly's Eye domes embody." "The Fly's Eye domes' 'pores' are all seven-foot-diameter circular openings." "These circular openings serve alternatively as doors, vents, solar-energy-cell mounts, etc." "The circular openings constitute three-fourths of the surface area of the domes, while the manufactured shell-structure components constitute only one-fourth of the structures' surface." "Since the circles have rigid rims, the closure of the circles can be accomplished by two, spread-apart drumheads of tensed, thin film or fabric materials-- ergo, at low relative cost." "The structural shell components constitute a comprehensive leakproof, watershedding system that, with the circular openings covered, leads all rain and melting snow into the shell's watercourse cisterning system." "The cylindrically rimmed circular openings will be tensilely covered with opaque, translucent, or transparent glass, plastic film, metal glazing or screening, or some combination thereof." "They will serve as energy harvesters in the operation of the dwelling by parabolically collecting incoming energy in sunlight foci, liquid-heating cells and by circular-opening-mounted, wind-drag-driven, air turbines." "Fly's Eye domes are of two sizes." "The smaller twenty-six-foot-diameter one is constructed of only one type of mass-produced, strong, lightweight, hyperbolic-saddle-form component;" "The larger fifty-foot-diameter one is comprised of only two types of mass-produced structural shell and watershed-constituting components, which are also of the hyperbolic-saddle type." "Both twenty-six- and fifty-foot-diameter domes can consist of two concentric identical domes with a space of six inches between and no metallic interconnectors-- this spacing produces highly effective insulation as well as an excellent hot- and cold-air ducting system." "The concentric domes' interconnection is accomplished with a seven-foot- diameter outside circle and six-inch-deep conic tubes made fast at the seven-foot outside end of the circular openings of the spheres." "The smaller Fly's Eye provides the optimally workable fundamentals for comfortable, efficient living in a two-story shelter." "It is small compared to a conventional house, but huge next to a van, camper, or almost any of the thousands of yachts enthusiastically occupied while tied up at the marina slips." "Optimum use of space will be important." "The larger Fly's Eye is fifty feet in diameter, capable of enclosing three or more stories (each of 2000-square-foot floor area), a garden, trees, and a pool." "While also equipped with all the living essentials at different levels, its space utilization will be quite different from the smaller Fly's Eye-- the fifty-footer accommodates what we call the Garden of Eden living-- living in a garden." "The Fly's Eye domes are designed as components of a 'livingry' service." "The basic hardware components will produce a beautiful, fully equipped, air-deliverable house that weighs and costs about as much as a good automobile." "Not only will it be highly efficient in its use of energy and materials, it also will be capable of harvesting incoming light and wind energies." "The software part of the product will include a service industry to air- or highway-transport, install, lease, maintain, remove, and relocate the domes or their separate hardware components." "And as mentioned, they will not be sold." "Both the twenty-six- and fifty-foot Fly's Eye domes are semiautonomous-- i.e., have no sewer, water-pipe, or electric-power-supply connections." "The personal hygiene, clothes- and utensil-washing functions are accomplished with the high-pressure, compressed air and atomized water fog gun which requires only a pint of water per hour." "The human excrement is sittingly deposited in the dry-packaging toilet." "The human sits on fresh, plastic-film-covered, fore-and-aft seat halves." "The excrement falls into the top-open plastic tube as it is formed by the two converging edges of the two plastic sheets, which are then electrosealed together from the originally separate two plastic film rolls, whose filmstrips first covered the two seat-sides." "The hermetically sealed-off tubular section containing the excrement is then mechanically detached and conveyed away as litter to be neatly packed in a corrugated carton clearly marked for pickup and dispatch to the methane-gas-producing plant and the dry-power fertilizer manufacturer or to be processed into methane gas and fertilizer powder by accessory equipment of the dome home itself." Please see _Critical Path_ by R.Buckminster Fuller, pages 310-15. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 00:29:45 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Relation: synergetics/other maths I recently self published a book called "Nature's Numbers," which you might find interesting. Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 16:54:12 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: Geodesic toys >> > >I use the Ikoso-Kits. > >No e-mail address but snail mail is: > >Ikoso Kits >28667 Spencer Creek Road >Eugene, OR 97405 > > >Andy Hi Andy, Will the Ikoso kit work to make the Isotropic Vector Matrix. thanks swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:20:48 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Relation: synergetics/other maths Comments: To: wlauritzen@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3t57bp$oaa@newsbf02.news.aol.com>; from "WLauritzen" at Jul 2, 95 12:29 am WLauritzen writes: > > I recently self published a book called "Nature's Numbers," which you > might find interesting. Bill Lauritzen > > .- > Bill, How about posting the table of contents of your book to the Geodesic list? That would give everybody an idea of what your book is about. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:40:08 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic toys In-Reply-To: <9507020855.AA24092@highway1.com.au>; from "John Mac Cosham" at Jul 2, 95 4:54 pm John Mac Cosham writes: > > >> > > > >I use the Ikoso-Kits. > > > >No e-mail address but snail mail is: > > > >Ikoso Kits > >28667 Spencer Creek Road > >Eugene, OR 97405 > > > > > >Andy > > Hi Andy, > > Will the Ikoso kit work to make the Isotropic Vector Matrix. > > thanks > > swami dharmraj > aka John Mac Cosham > dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au > > "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller > .- > In my experience, none of the commercial kits have the octet truss/VE in mind. I found that they didn't have connectors with 12 spokes. I ended up making my own out of vinyl tubing. 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter cut into 1 or 1.5 inch pieces with a hole in the middle cut with a leather punch (that had variable size dies on a wheel). Put 6 pieces of tubing together using a 3/4" brad. A little tedious making the first bunch, but after that I never ran out--I could always make more and/or reuse the old ones. Mostly used wooden dowels. Again, once the initial expense and cutting were behind me, I never ran out of parts (or got more dowels or cut some in half). An old model builder, Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:54:23 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: GLOBAL ENERGY GRID Comments: To: Nick Pine In-Reply-To: <9507021156.AA00684@nfs.ee.vill.edu>; from "Nick Pine" at Jul 2, 95 7:56 am Nick Pine writes: > > Hi Joe, > > I don't suppose Critical Path is still in print... > > How big does a solar dome balloon have to be to float? I guess the > weight (surface) to volume ratio goes down as they get bigger... > > Nick > > .- > If you double the size of the dome, you get 8 times the volume but the surface area is only multiplied by 4. I think after the size gets to about a half mile in diameter the ratio of the weight of the structure compared to the weight of contained air is such that it acts like a huge hot air balloon and floats. Last I heard _Critical Path_ was available through the Buckminster Fuller Institute in Santa Barbara (bfi@aol.com). Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:58:24 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: SELF-CONTAINED HOMES (fwd) Nick Pine writes: > From nfs.ee.vill.edu!nick Sun Jul 2 05:05:31 1995 > Date: Sun, 2 Jul 95 08:09:34 EDT > From: Nick Pine > Message-Id: <9507021209.AA00720@nfs.ee.vill.edu> > To: joemoore@cruzio.com > Subject: Re: SELF-CONTAINED HOMES > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > In-Reply-To: <199507020411.VAA07887@mail4.netcom.com> > Organization: Villanova University > Cc: > > >"Since the circles have rigid rims, > > the closure of the circles can be accomplished > > by two, spread-apart drumheads > > of tensed, thin film or fabric materials-- > > ergo, at low relative cost." > > This sounds nice. Tedlar (PVF) film, perhaps... > > >"They will serve as energy harvesters > > in the operation of the dwelling > > by parabolically collecting incoming energy > > in sunlight foci, liquid-heating cells > > and by circular-opening-mounted, > > wind-drag-driven, air turbines." > > I wonder how those would work, exactly? I could see parabolas formed > from reflective films, with little receivers mounted on moving arms, > outside, to track the focus as the sun moved... but these air turbines, > what would they look like? Seems like you wouldn't want the air flowing > thru the circular opening, into the house... > > >"Both twenty-six- and fifty-foot-diameter domes > > can consist of two concentric identical domes > > with a space of six inches between > > and no metallic interconnectors-- > > this spacing produces highly effective insulation > > as well as an excellent hot- and cold-air ducting system." > > This space alone would only have an R-value of about 1, unlike say, 6" > of fiberglass insulation with an R-value of 19. But if the two facing > surfaces were shiny, that would raise the R-value to roughly 2 (for > upward heat flow) to 3 (for sideways heatflow) to 14 (for downward > heatflow.) Not exactly "highly-effective," but better... Is that what > Bucky had in mind? Another option is to fill most of the space with > foam beads... > > > the fifty-footer accommodates what we call > > the Garden of Eden living-- > > living in a garden." > > Some Monolithic Domes are along these lines... > > > fully equipped, air-deliverable house that weighs and costs > > about as much as a good automobile." > > I wonder when someone will build these? Pacific Yurts aren't bad, from > what I can see from their literature... > > >"And as mentioned, they will not be sold." > > Oh? > > >"The hermetically sealed-off tubular section > > containing the excrement > > is then mechanically detached > > and conveyed away as litter > > to be neatly packed in a corrugated carton > > clearly marked for pickup and dispatch > > to the methane-gas-producing plant > > and the dry-power fertilizer manufacturer > > or to be processed into methane gas and fertilizer powder > > by accessory equipment of the dome home itself." > > I dunno. It seems to me that it's pretty tough to make recycling work > as it is now, one big problem being the cost of labor... I sorta like > on-site composting for this... > > Nick > > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 12:04:25 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Lewis Subject: Re: Geodesic toys >>> >> >>I use the Ikoso-Kits. >> >>No e-mail address but snail mail is: >> >>Ikoso Kits >>28667 Spencer Creek Road >>Eugene, OR 97405 >> >> >>Andy > >Hi Andy, > >Will the Ikoso kit work to make the Isotropic Vector Matrix. > >thanks > >swami dharmraj >aka John Mac Cosham >dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au > >"Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller > > John: The Ikoso kit consists of "hubs" of plastic tubing which you pierce as desired. Definitely low-tech, but servicable. Like your e-mail address. My daughter has a new pygmy African hedgehog. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:35:44 GMT Reply-To: halanek@ibm.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: halanek@IBM.NET Subject: Re: exact digital world map ? In , smtc5@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes: > >Please post as well. > Thanks, > Steve MatherAterTh ankss Hmmm. What do you mean with this ? Bye/2 FROM Rainer WITH OS/2 3.00 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:49:09 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FLOATING TENSEGRITY SPHERES FULLER'S CLOUD NINE FLOATING TENSEGRITY SPHERES "In 1958 I saw clearly the progression of technical events altering all old engineering concepts regarding the relative increase in the overall weights of structures-- and designed my sky-floating tensegrity structures, which I call 'Cloud Nines'" "A 100-foot-diameter, tensegrity-trussed, geodesic sphere weighing three tons encloses seven tons of air." "The air-to-structural-weight ratio is two to one." "When we double the size so that the geodesic sphere is 200 feet in diameter, the weight of the structure increases to seven tons while the weight of the air increases to fifty-six tons-- the air-to-structure ratio changes as eight to one." "When we double the size again to a 400-foot geodesic sphere-- the size of several geodesic domes now operating-- the weight of the air inside increases to about 500 tons while the weight of the structure increases to fifteen tons." "The air-weight-to-structure-weight ratio is now thirty-three to one." "When we get to a geodesic sphere one-half mile in diameter, the weight of the structure itself becomes of relatively negligible magnitude, for the ratio is approximately a thousand to one." "When the Sun shines on an open-frame aluminum geodesic sphere of one-half-mile diameter, the Sun penetrating through the frame and reflected from the aluminum members of the concave far side bounces back into the sphere and gradually heats the interior atmosphere to a mild degree." "When the interior temperature of the sphere rises only one degree Fahrenheit, the weight of the air pushed out of the sphere is greater than the weight of the spherical-frame geodesic structure." "This means that the total weight of the interior air plus the weight of the structure is much less than the surrounding atmosphere." "This means that the total assemblage of the geodesic sphere and its contained air will have to float outwardly, into the sky, being displaced by the heavy atmosphere around it." "When a great bank of mist lies in a valley in the morning and the Sun shines upon it, the Sun heats the air inside the bank of mist." "The heated air expands and therefore pushes some of itself outside the mist bank." "The total assembly of the mist bank weighs less than the atmosphere surrounding it, and the mist bank floats aloft into the sky." "Thus are clouds manufactured." "As geodesic spheres get larger than one-half mile in diameter, they become floatable cloud structures." "If their surfaces were draped with outwardly hung polyethelene curtains to retard the rate at which air would come back in at night, the sphere and its internal atmosphere would continue to be so light as to remain aloft." "Such sky-floating geodesic/tensegrity spheres may be designed to float at preferred altitudes of thousands of feet." "The weight of human beings added to such prefabricated 'Cloud Nines' would be relatively negligible." "Many thousands of passengers could be housed aboard one-mile-diameter and larger cloud structures." "The passengers could come and go from cloud to cloud, or cloud to ground, as the clouds float around the Earth or are anchored to mountaintops." Please see _Critical Path_ by R. Buckminster Fuller, pages 336-7. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:59:11 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: GLOBAL ENERGY GRID Comments: To: Nick Pine In-Reply-To: <9507021934.AA01556@nfs.ee.vill.edu>; from "Nick Pine" at Jul 2, 95 3:34 pm Nick Pine writes: > > >If you double the size of the dome, you get 8 times the volume but the surfac e > >area is only multiplied by 4. I think after the size gets to about a half > >mile in diameter the ratio of the weight of the structure compared to the > >weight of contained air is such that it acts like a huge hot air balloon and > >floats. > > That's still pretty big. And it would depend on the internal temp > rise, which would depend on the solar transmission and R-value of the > balloon skin. I wonder if this ever got much detailed... > > >Last I heard _Critical Path_ was available through the Buckminster > >Fuller Institute in Santa Barbara (bfi@aol.com). > > Thanks. I'll send 'em email. Was that where that quote came from that > went something like this (in support of a global energy grid): "We > have studied the growth rates of electricity consumption and population > growth for over 150 countries, and we have found that without exception, > population grows inversely to energy consumption." > > Nick > > .- > The quotes about the Energy Grid came from GENI, the organization that's promoting it. Check out their web pages at http://www.cerf.net/geni/ Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 18:30:26 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: Geodesic toys >In my experience, none of the commercial kits have the octet truss/VE in mind. >I found that they didn't have connectors with 12 spokes. I ended up making my >own out of vinyl tubing. 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter cut into 1 or 1.5 inch >pieces with a hole in the middle cut with a leather punch (that had variable >size dies on a wheel). Put 6 pieces of tubing together using a 3/4" brad. >A little tedious making the first bunch, but after that I never ran out--I >could always make more and/or reuse the old ones. Mostly used wooden dowels. >Again, once the initial expense and cutting were behind me, I never ran out of >parts (or got more dowels or cut some in half). > >An old model builder, > >Joe > Okey........thanks for that. I will try that out. The things I have made take to long to put together and take apart. This will be interesting. It has to be able to do a two frequency vector equilibrium for me to consider it a real success. swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 13:58:00 +0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: RFC822 error: Original tag data was -> aist (Scientific Aist Technical Infocenter of Russia) Comments: Resent-From: aist (Scientific Aist Technical Infocenter of Russia) Comments: Originally-From: aist@glas.apc.org (Scientific Aist Technical Infocenter of Russia) From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer Subject: SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION from RUSSIA /* /(a -. 1:46 pm Jul 3, 1995 aist@glas.apc.org " glas:bionet.users.a */ /* ---------- "SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION from RUSSIA" ---------- */ THE SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL INFORMATION CENTRE OF RUSSIA: Status and Activities The Scientific and Technical Information Centre of Russia (the Russian acronym - VNTIC) is a nation-wide (i.e. federal) information institution responsabile for the maintenance of the complete all-Russia (before 1991 - all-Union) fund for scientific R&D reports (projects) and dissertations (candidate and doctoral). The presentation of the documents to the VNTIC fund is obligatory for all the organizations engaged in state budgeted scientific research and development and is carried out in accordance with the Federal Law of the Russian Federation, adopted by Russian Parlament and published in January 17, 1995. The fund is supported in two forms: human-redable full-text primary documents (reports and dissertations), stored on microfiches; machine-redable (secondary) documents, contaning bibliographic descriptions and abstracts of the primary ducuments and stored in database structure to provide online information search and retrival. Thus, VNTIC is original database geneator. For more 25 year of VNTIC existence there are above 5 million documents tatally accumulated in the fund reflecting state-of the main results of R&D activities undertaken in the former Soviet Union (FSU) and now in Russia and civering all the areas of human knowledge including not only exect, natural and engineering sciences and technology but also social sciences, the humanities, arts, medicine and religion. The uniqueness of the VNTIC fund is twofold: the documents presented in the fund are not being published and circulated i.e. they exist only in two type- or computer-written copies on of which belongs to the author of the source institution and the other goes to VNTIC and since the documents are not available elsewhere including such fomous Russian information institutions like The All-Russia institution for Scientific and Technical Information (VINITI), International Centre for Scientific and Technical Information (ICSTI) and largest regional information centres; the information from the documents becomes available to users with the least possible delay of about 2-3 months as compared to 1-2 years for the same (or even less complete) information to appear in a published form (in journals, book, monographs). The VNTIC fund, therefore, is an integral part of the national scientific and cultural wealth of the Russia and undoubtfully is of the world importance and value. In the long run the information from the fund may save billions of dollars to the world scientific community providing information on the expensive and sometimes harmful tu human health and environment researches (say, in chemistry or nuclear physics) that have already been carried out in the FSU or Russia. The fund and the databases of VNTIC are of great interest not only to specialists but also to generalists - economists, politologists, ecologists or NGOlogists - who are engaged in transformation research concerning Russia and FSU. The fund and databases allow VNTIC to provide users with the following kinds of services: - publishing the abstract journals on 28 series; - partial database dessemination in machine-readable from on different subject areas; - online and delay search database access; - translating the abstracts of reports and dissertations into English language databases; - publishing the English language abstracted editions on 10 series; - publishing the Russian and English version of the R&D organization directories; - database on CD-ROM with the Russian and English language documents. For more information, call or write: VNTIC, 14, Smolnaya St., Moscow, 125493, Russia tel/fax: +(095)456-8593 E-mail: aist@glas.apc.org fax: +(095)456-7521 aistmain@vntic.msk.su ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:44:53 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Seth J. Itzkan" Subject: Gathering July 12 in Cambridge Hello Bucky Friends in the Boston/Cambridge area, On Wednesday afternoon, July 12, please join in a small gathering visit to Bucky's burial site in Mt. Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge Mass. in honor of his 100th birthday. We will pay respects and share personal remembrances. Afterwards all are invited for refreshments and good'ol Bucky story telling, synergistic conversations, and the like, at my apartment in Arlington. Meet at the main gate of Mt. Auburn Cemetery at 5:15 PM. Gathering at my house: 7:30 - 10:00 PM Seth J. Itzkan 47 Thorndike St. Arlington, MA (Thorndike is off of Mass. ave by Alewife and the bike path) 617-646-3887 P.S. Mt. Auburn Cemetary, by the way, if you have never been, is one of the most lovely and unique cemeteries in the country. Many other visionaries/luminaries also rest there (Mary Baker Eddy, Isabella Gardner, Winslow Homer, etc.). Seth J. Itzkan BBN Educational Technologies 150 CambridgePark Drive Cambridge MA 02140 617-873-3163 sitzkan@bbn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:20:41 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stuart Quimby Organization: MHVNet, the Mid Hudson Valley's Internet connection Subject: Re: Geodesic toys Joe Moore wrote: > In my experience, none of the commercial kits have the octet truss/VE in mind. > I found that they didn't have connectors with 12 spokes. I ended up making my > own out of vinyl tubing. 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter cut into 1 or 1.5 inch > pieces with a hole in the middle cut with a leather punch (that had variable > size dies on a wheel). Put 6 pieces of tubing together using a 3/4" brad. > A little tedious making the first bunch, but after that I never ran out--I > could always make more and/or reuse the old ones. Mostly used wooden dowels. > Again, once the initial expense and cutting were behind me, I never ran out of > parts (or got more dowels or cut some in half). > Hey Joe, what about us? We make lots of toys capable of the VE or the OcTet. 1. Tensegritoy (I've built OcTet's with this greater than 20' long) 2. Stik Trix (smaller, cheaper, easier) 3. Roger's Connection (magnetic, expensive, elegant) 4. ZomeTool (most versatile, makes warped Octets and VE's plus upper dimensional versions) 5. OctaBug (single cell paper VE that performs the Jitterbug transformation) You can get a catalog by calling 800-227-2316, or email your snail address to me: Stuart Quimby Design Science Toys stuq@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:42:03 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic toys In-Reply-To: <3tb4lp$c16@over.mhv.net>; from "Stuart Quimby" at Jul 4, 95 10:20 am Stuart Quimby writes: > > Joe Moore wrote: > > > In my experience, none of the commercial kits have the octet truss/VE in > mind. > > I found that they didn't have connectors with 12 spokes. I ended up making > my > > own out of vinyl tubing. 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter cut into 1 or 1.5 inch > > pieces with a hole in the middle cut with a leather punch (that had variable > > size dies on a wheel). Put 6 pieces of tubing together using a 3/4" brad. > > A little tedious making the first bunch, but after that I never ran out--I > > could always make more and/or reuse the old ones. Mostly used wooden dowels . > > Again, once the initial expense and cutting were behind me, I never ran out > of > > parts (or got more dowels or cut some in half). > > > > Hey Joe, what about us? We make lots of toys capable of the VE or the OcTet. > > 1. Tensegritoy (I've built OcTet's with this greater than 20' long) > 2. Stik Trix (smaller, cheaper, easier) > 3. Roger's Connection (magnetic, expensive, elegant) > 4. ZomeTool (most versatile, makes warped Octets and VE's plus upper > dimensional versions) > 5. OctaBug (single cell paper VE that performs the Jitterbug transformation) > > You can get a catalog by calling 800-227-2316, or email your snail address to > me: > > Stuart Quimby > Design Science Toys > stuq@mhv.net > .- > Hey Stu, Thanks for the info. I haven't had a opportunity to play with those model-building kits. I glad to see that VE/octet-building kits are now available. Back in the "good 'ol days" we were on our own. Guess I should have read your catalog more closely. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:48:30 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters (fwd) Helen W. St. Cyr writes: > From svpal.svpal.org!svpal.org!5889ww Tue Jul 4 09:39:19 1995 > Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 09:40:56 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Helen W. St. Cyr" <5889ww@svpal.org> > Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters (fw d) > To: Joe Moore > cc: 5889ww@svpal.org > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Hi, Joe, > > FYI, > > Have a great 4th, > > Helen St. Cyr > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 16:26:44 -0700 > From: Jim Warren > To: GovAccess@well.com > Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters > > > [Much deleted] > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& > > > Bucky's 1940s Direct Democracy Proposal > > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:07:00 PST > From: "Tom Parker [Consultant]" > > ... From Buckminster Fuller's book NO MORE SECONDHAND GOD (1940). Bucky > said to save democracy (note the date -- Hitler had taken Poland, attacked > Russia) we need to devise "a mechanical means for nation-wide voting daily > and secretly by each adult citizen of Uncle Sam's family." What a thought! > What if we ALL got to vote on ALL the Bills that came through. What a > thought! Who would vote for massive yearly pay increases for Congress? > > In Bucky's day the main "mechanical means" was not the computer -- although > it COULD have been the telephone. And if you want to pursue the telephone > [line] idea you can reach Evan Ravitz at evan@welcomehome.org = the Voting > By Telephone Foundation. > > You know lots of folks who are cyberspace gurus. Do you think that any of > them would be interested in PLANNING how to restore the vote by letting > citizens vote directly -- via Internet connections AND [maybe] the > telephone? ... > > Something like: > > Direct Vote Options > Computer > Telephone > Public Access Points > > Voter Registration > Get your secret code > Use it when you vote > > Implementation > Initial phase = straw voting National/State/Local > Phase I = vote for Congress > Phase II = vote for President > Phase III = Vote on ALL the bills that interest you. > > > [I have *severe* reservations about such direct democracy proposals - > especially concerning complex issues about which the decision-making voters > would likely have little knowledge or understanding, especially of their > ramifications (Exon's "Decency" bill comes to mind). It's also at least as > susceptable to advertising manipulation using the tobacco companies' best, > well-proven techniques as the elected officials are susceptable to > lobbyists. > > On the other hand, here in California, we have the ballot initiative option > - and in spite of all its frailties and abuses, I'd a helluva lot rather > have it than leave decision-making to the entrenched special-interest > representatives that we seem to insist on continuing to re-elect until term > limits de-thrones them. > > What I *would* like to see is perhaps a legislative body that *proposes* > law, but where each law must be approved by majority of the body politic > empowered to vote - i.e., universal referendum by the electorate. > > Please note that I said a majority of those empowered to vote; NOT merely a > majority of those voting in a given election. (Interesting ramifications! > :-) > > --jim] > > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& > > > > > > Mo' as it Is. > > --jim > Jim Warren, GovAccess list-owner/editor (jwarren@well.com) > Advocate & columnist, MicroTimes, Government Technology, BoardWatch, etc. > 345 Swett Rd., Woodside CA 94062; voice/415-851-7075; fax/<# upon request> > > To add or drop GovAccess, email to Majordomo@well.com ('Subject' ignored) > with message: [un]subscribe GovAccess YourEmailAddress (insert your eaddr) > For brief description of GovAccess, send the message: info GovAccess > > Past postings are at ftp.cpsr.org: /cpsr/states/california/govaccess > and by WWW at http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/states/california/govaccess . > Also forwarded to USENET's comp.org.cpsr.talk by CPSR's Al Whaley. > > May be copied & reposted except for any items that explicitly prohibit it. > > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:51:17 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Creating a New Civilization (fwd) Harry Ploss writes: > From netcom15.netcom.com!netcom.com!hploss Tue Jul 4 11:43:20 1995 > Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 11:10:54 -0700 (PDT) > From: Harry Ploss > Subject: Creating a New Civilization > To: Flemming Funch > cc: wholeinfo-l-outgoing@netcom.com > In-Reply-To: <199507041716.KAA21039@newciv.org> > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Creating a New Civilization, Politics of the Third Wave > by Alvin & Heidi Tofler > > An interesting, thin paperback. > > First Wave was the Agricultural Revolution of 8,000 years ago. > Second Wave was the Industrial Revolution > Third Wave is the Information age. > > Majority Rule, replaced land owner rule with the Manufacturing Era. > Now Minority options and freedom is replacing Majority Rule. > De-Massification and individuation is made possible with computers. > > Communication is world wide and crossing borders, everyday. Nationalism > is being replaced with world wide trade. > > Control is being decentralized, in Business and government. The Soviet > Union fell in part because it was based on centralized control, that was > ineffective in adjusting to the changing world. > > The IRAQ Dessert Storm war was between a Second Wave Army and a Third > Wave Army. Old beliefs that you can't win a war with information and via > AIR are now waning. The Soviet Union had a much larger army but it was > organized based Hardware, centralized Control and hence was a Second Wave > Force. > > Information, unlike materials can be shared to create even greater wealth. > > Our 'Second Wave' Accounting and TAX systems value Plant and Inventory, > but not Intangibles like licenses and Ideas. > > There is a conflict going on between the Second Wave forces in Power and > the Emerging forces of the Third Wave. It will affect, Government > Structures, Accounting and Philosophy - and many other things we take for > granted. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > HARRY PLOSS Dallas, Texas hploss@netcom.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 02:27:13 -400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael R Swanson Subject: Re: Creating a New Civilization (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199507050155.SAA12245@mail.netcom.com> > > > > Creating a New Civilization, Politics of the Third Wave > > by Alvin & Heidi Tofler > > > > An interesting, thin paperback. > > > > First Wave was the Agricultural Revolution of 8,000 years ago. > > Second Wave was the Industrial Revolution > > Third Wave is the Information age. Perhaps..but despite all of the lofty visions of a high-tech information age it does not necessarily mean a better world. First of all, hardly everyone is going to have access to the information age. It also will mean less jobs as new inovations to cut labor are created. The increasing unemployablitily of large segments of people is a crisis that is going to get worse. How are these people going to participate in this Tofler vision? > > > > Majority Rule, replaced land owner rule with the Manufacturing Era. > > Now Minority options and freedom is replacing Majority Rule. What does this mean? Minorities are replacing majority rule? What exactly does this mean? > > De-Massification and individuation is made possible with computers. > > For those that have computers and actually use the computers to access information - a small fraction of the US population. The mass media still has more influence over people - and will continue to do so - then alternative sources. > > Communication is world wide and crossing borders, everyday. Nationalism > > is being replaced with world wide trade. Nationalism is not dying out. And if anything world wide trade is increasing nationalism due to the poverty it creates in the third world. > > > > Control is being decentralized, in Business and government. The Soviet > > Union fell in part because it was based on centralized control, that was > > ineffective in adjusting to the changing world. That's a very simplified reason for the collapse of the Soviet Union. Soviet Union collapsed because it went bankrupt due to placing more importance on emphasis on military spending than economic investment. More killingry and less livingry. If the Soviet Union collapsed due to centralization does this mean we can expect to see China fall next? Or Sweden? Or centralized international corporations? > > > > The IRAQ Dessert Storm war was between a Second Wave Army and a Third > > Wave Army. Old beliefs that you can't win a war with information and via > > AIR are now waning. The Soviet Union had a much larger army but it was > > organized based Hardware, centralized Control and hence was a Second Wave > > Force. > > Who based their army on the idea that you don't need information nor air power to win a war? In fact the Soviet army had large air forces through their nuclear weapons. I don't know what is meant by organized based hardware. It is true that their army was not organized as well as ours was due to bad command techniques- nor was the technology as high. Also the Iraqi army was not the Soviet Army. They lost their war because they went blind - lack of information - due to our superior air forces knocking out their communications. Call it third wave if you like - the key factor was air power - which could have been done by a second wave army too. > > Information, unlike materials can be shared to create even greater wealth. > > > > Our 'Second Wave' Accounting and TAX systems value Plant and Inventory, > > but not Intangibles like licenses and Ideas. > > > > There is a conflict going on between the Second Wave forces in Power and > > the Emerging forces of the Third Wave. It will affect, Government > > Structures, Accounting and Philosophy - and many other things we take for > > granted. > > What this really means is that their is a conflict in government between liberals and conservatives...Newt Gingrich and his talk of revolution which really means his belief in the Tofler stuff. What role do the Tofler's give to workers in third world nations? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 01:56:38 -0400 Reply-To: AMKALENAK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: AMKALENAK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: BUCKY'S VTOL CAR Does the one you kicked actually operate ? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:21:18 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters (fwd) Regarding direct voting/democracy -- I think a better solution is just to remove a certain power from the gov (like repealing the sixteenth amendment) and work for societal change via other institutions. "Those who give up liberty in order to attain security will soon find that they have neither." Benjamin Franklin. Patrick Alessandra Jr. / x.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX. 77057 USA Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:38:10 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Creating a New Civilization Creating a new right and sustainable civilization would, hopefully, be a natural procedure for the cosmic computer -- as long as we humans can freely cooperate! Economics & Freedom: A Civilized World In the spirit of the world working for 100% of humanity (RBF) in an ecologically sustainable way and as rapidly as possible: This text is from an article that was written for conventional economists and has been sent to numerous media outlets. This article was written with the idea that a very specific societal change -- the restoration of economic freedom by no longer requiring people to use money (vis a vi personal taxation) [thus eliminating a certain type of power base] -- would establish the best possibilities for a civilized world. To quote: "All right and sustainable societal change can be brought about by 'moralsuasion' and a good character based economic life." and "If personal taxes are eliminated then people set up a natural, more efficient and more truly profitable barter system which has at its center good character and personal trust." and "This type of civilization evolves locally self-sustaining inter-networked human eco-systems with naturally balanced resource distribution systems -- i.e., the planet naturally works for 100% of humanity...") "Those who give up liberty in order to attain security will soon find that they have neither." Benjamin Franklin. Patrick Alessandra Jr. / x.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX. 77057 USA Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 13:52:07 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SCIENTIFIC HOUSES HUMANLY OCCUPIED ENVIRONMENT-CONTROLLING STRUCTURES "(A) Spherical structures enclose the greatest volume with least surface." "(B) Geodesic spherical structures, which are inherently omnitriangularly framed entirely of great-circle chords, give the strongest structure per weight of materials employed." "(C) Amongst the geodesic great-circle spherical structures, those based on the discontinuous compression, continuous tension-- 'tensegrity'--icosahedra give the most environmental enclosure per pound and volume of material employed." "(D) Every time the linear dimension of a symmetrical structure is doubled (i.e., 1 -> 2) the surface area of the enclosure increases at a two to the second-power rate (i.e., 2^2), while the environment-controlling structure's volume increases at a two to the third-power rate (i.e., 2^3)." "Wherefore, every time a geodesic dome's diameter is doubled, it has eight times as many contained molecules of atmosphere but only four times as much enclosing shell-- ergo, each progressive doubling of dome diameters halves the amount of enclosing surface through which each molecule of interior atmosphere may either gain or lose energy as heat." "(See 'Old Man River's City' project, pp. 315-23.)" "Whole cities are most efficiently enclosed under one large dome." "(E) Every time we enclose a geodesic dome within a greater-diametered geodesic dome whose radially concentric interspacing is greater than the depth of the frost penetration of that area, while at the same time avoiding use of any metal interconnections between the inner and outer domes' structuring, the heat losses and gains of the innermost domes are halved in respect to those of non-domed-over domes of the same dimensions." "(F) If in producing the geodesic domes-within-domes we make them transparent or translucent on their sunny side and opaque and inwardly reflecting on the nonsunny side, they will entrap progressively greater amounts of Sun energy as heat for longer and greater periods of time as the diameters are increased." "(G) If growing vegetation-- i.e., trees, vegetables, corn, sugar, ground cover, etc.-- is planted within the dome, the photosynthetic conversion of Sun radiation into hydrocarbon molecules will chemically and simultaneously" "(1) convert the monoxide gases given off by human occupants into human-supporting (air) atmosphere, thus eliminating all necessity for windows or air conditioning apparatus, and" "(2) harvest hydrocarbon molecule-trapped energy as food or as fuel-alcohol energy." "(H) If the wind drag of buildings is employed to turbine-convert windpower into tank-stored compressed air, the latter may be stored within the space between the inner and outer domes' skins as low-pressure atmosphere in quantities adequate to pneumatically and evenly distribute any concentrated outer cover loadings throughout all the tensional components of the geodesic-tensegrity structures." "(I) As the Sun's radiation is outwardly and diffusingly reflected by the dome structure's convex outer surface, vertical thermal-column movements of the Sun-heated outside atmosphere develop, which spirally rising columns of heated atmosphere will draw air out from under the dome's large lower-edge summertime openings, which voluminous outward drafting in turn pulls air into the dome through the small cross-sectioned ventilators at the dome's apex." "This pressure differential between the small air entry and large exhaust openings produces the Bernoulli chilling effect, which in hot weather will swiftly cool the dome's interior atmosphere." "World Game has proven this in geodesic domes at the African equator." "(J) It is clearly demonstrable that the conversion of windpower by dome-within-dome drag-operated air turbines will power the compressing and tank storage of air and will thus produce ample power to operate a pneumatic-tool system for all mechanical operating needs within the dome." "Pneumatic tools avoid the human-electrocution perils of electrically operated domestic technology." "(K) Sum-totally it is now demonstrable that properly designed domes within domes become energy-harvesting machines that provide more energy than is needed for the high-standard life support of their human occupants, wherefore such dwelling machines may become exporters of energy in variously stored and controlled forms, such as alcohol." "(L) It has been satisfactorily demonstrated that the reflective, concave inner surface of the geodesic, dome-within-dome, environment-controlling shells will act as parabolic, Sun-radiation concentrators, focusing the Sun radiation income into heating of a circularly arced, liquid-containing pipe, whereby the Sun's heat may be stored liquidly in vacuum-enclosed subterranean tanks for subsequent use in a variety of ways." "The by-product heat from the air compressing is used to heat water stored in the same reservoir." "(M) World Game's design science treats the tensegrity-structured, dome-within-dome geodesic environment controls as comprehensive energh-harvesting, -storing, and -exchanging devices." "Typically, the vegetation most efficiently employed includes the growth of corn and the 'winged bean' in the sunlight area and mushrooms in the hot, dark areas." "(N) Radiotelephones and income-energy generators render the dwelling machine semiautonomous." "(O) Two sanitary devices as described earlier render the environment controls independent of water-supply lines and sewage-carry-away systems:" "(1) the fog gun for cleaning the human skin and all other surfaces with a high-pressure air gun into whose airstream small amounts of atomized water are fed;" "(2) the carton packaging and mechanized, convey-away system of human wastes to be delivered to elsewhere-located fertilizer or gas-generating works or to anaerobic methane gas and dry fertilizer-generating equipment of the dwelling machines themselves." "These two devices eliminate all wet plumbing, which has been responsible for breeding most of all the infectious bacteria heretofore entering human abodes, while also eliminating the infectious splashback feature of water-filled bowls and their water-flushed toilets." Please see _Critical Path_ by R. Buckminster Fuller, pages 209-12. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 16:21:43 -0400 Reply-To: "D. B. Wolf" Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: SENDER field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: "D. B. Wolf" Subject: Re: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199507041751.KAA06955@mail.netcom.com> The implications of a universal and direct vote are very intriging indeed. Fuller was quite perceptive on this point it seems. I believe that steps in this general direction are already being made. I seem to recall that a county in Southern California (Orange County?) has re-worked its processing of municipal affairs such that they are completely computer accessible by the general public. If anyone has any information regarding this system and set up I would be VERY interested in finding out more about it. I'm rather involved in setting up something similar here in Ontario, though it is for a specific community rather than municipal government. Still it is tremendously exciting! I do have one major concern about the prospect of voting on everything however. I would rather look at such a system as a way of providing input on decisions rather than setting votes for all but the most clearly defined questions. I think that consultation and dialogue are the keys to good decisions, and a system which reduces questions to simple yes/no responses which can be issued instantly may well interfer with this process. This and the fact that few of us, unless we happen to be in the business of following all political trends, proposed legislation and effected actors, are really in the best of positions of saying what is the best direction to take on a given subject. A certain degree of awareness is critical to an effective vote. Any system of electronic response must give some room for appropriate reflection and information digestion. Just a few thoughts, Dan Wolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ D. B. Wolf, E-mail-1: Environmental Analyst E-mail-2: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 4 Jul 1995, Joe Moore wrote: > Helen W. St. Cyr writes: > > From svpal.svpal.org!svpal.org!5889ww Tue Jul 4 09:39:19 1995 > > Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 09:40:56 -0700 (PDT) > > From: "Helen W. St. Cyr" <5889ww@svpal.org> > > Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters ( fw > d) > > To: Joe Moore > > cc: 5889ww@svpal.org > > Message-ID: > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > > > > Hi, Joe, > > > > FYI, > > > > Have a great 4th, > > > > Helen St. Cyr > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 16:26:44 -0700 > > From: Jim Warren > > To: GovAccess@well.com > > Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters > > > > > > [Much deleted] > > > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& > > > > > > Bucky's 1940s Direct Democracy Proposal > > > > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:07:00 PST > > From: "Tom Parker [Consultant]" > > > > ... From Buckminster Fuller's book NO MORE SECONDHAND GOD (1940). Bucky > > said to save democracy (note the date -- Hitler had taken Poland, attacked > > Russia) we need to devise "a mechanical means for nation-wide voting daily > > and secretly by each adult citizen of Uncle Sam's family." What a thought! > > What if we ALL got to vote on ALL the Bills that came through. What a > > thought! Who would vote for massive yearly pay increases for Congress? > > > > In Bucky's day the main "mechanical means" was not the computer -- although > > it COULD have been the telephone. And if you want to pursue the telephone > > [line] idea you can reach Evan Ravitz at evan@welcomehome.org = the Voting > > By Telephone Foundation. > > > > You know lots of folks who are cyberspace gurus. Do you think that any of > > them would be interested in PLANNING how to restore the vote by letting > > citizens vote directly -- via Internet connections AND [maybe] the > > telephone? ... > > > > Something like: > > > > Direct Vote Options > > Computer > > Telephone > > Public Access Points > > > > Voter Registration > > Get your secret code > > Use it when you vote > > > > Implementation > > Initial phase = straw voting National/State/Local > > Phase I = vote for Congress > > Phase II = vote for President > > Phase III = Vote on ALL the bills that interest you. > > > > > > [I have *severe* reservations about such direct democracy proposals - > > especially concerning complex issues about which the decision-making voters > > would likely have little knowledge or understanding, especially of their > > ramifications (Exon's "Decency" bill comes to mind). It's also at least as > > susceptable to advertising manipulation using the tobacco companies' best, > > well-proven techniques as the elected officials are susceptable to > > lobbyists. > > > > On the other hand, here in California, we have the ballot initiative option > > - and in spite of all its frailties and abuses, I'd a helluva lot rather > > have it than leave decision-making to the entrenched special-interest > > representatives that we seem to insist on continuing to re-elect until term > > limits de-thrones them. > > > > What I *would* like to see is perhaps a legislative body that *proposes* > > law, but where each law must be approved by majority of the body politic > > empowered to vote - i.e., universal referendum by the electorate. > > > > Please note that I said a majority of those empowered to vote; NOT merely a > > majority of those voting in a given election. (Interesting ramifications! > > :-) > > > > --jim] > > > > > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& > > > > > > > > > > > > Mo' as it Is. > > > > --jim > > Jim Warren, GovAccess list-owner/editor (jwarren@well.com) > > Advocate & columnist, MicroTimes, Government Technology, BoardWatch, etc. > > 345 Swett Rd., Woodside CA 94062; voice/415-851-7075; fax/<# upon request> > > > > To add or drop GovAccess, email to Majordomo@well.com ('Subject' ignored) > > with message: [un]subscribe GovAccess YourEmailAddress (insert your eaddr) > > For brief description of GovAccess, send the message: info GovAccess > > > > Past postings are at ftp.cpsr.org: /cpsr/states/california/govaccess > > and by WWW at http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/states/california/govaccess . > > Also forwarded to USENET's comp.org.cpsr.talk by CPSR's Al Whaley. > > > > May be copied & reposted except for any items that explicitly prohibit it. > > > > .- > > > > > -- > > JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 > 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 > CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 20:32:11 -0400 Reply-To: Shrsharkey Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Shrsharkey Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Geodesic Dome help needed have you contacted Buckminster Fuller Institute at bfi@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 21:08:06 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic Dome help needed Comments: To: shrsharkey@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3thvab$bbo@newsbf02.news.aol.com>; from "Shrsharkey" at Jul 6, 95 8:32 pm Shrsharkey writes: > > have you contacted Buckminster Fuller Institute at bfi@aol.com > .- > ??? What info are you seeking? -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 03:02:16 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bryan Paulk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | NetControl Sales 904-226-2260 Operations Center 904-226-2391 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 18:35:19 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: MARINE CORPS STUDY CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS "A. CONCLUSIONS" "1. It is concluded that the Geodesic Dome principle of shelter design developed for specific application to the requirements of Marine Aviation can provide a single family of shelters that:" "a. Provides functional suitability superior to any shelters with comparable weight-to-enclosed-space ratios." "b. Offers over-all durability exceeding that of any known type of shelter suited to the mobility requirements of Marine Aviation." "c. Introduces a simplicity never before attained for a family of portable shelters suited to the complex functions of a modern military air force." "d. Exceeds the transportability of any family of shelters and in addition provides the extremely practical innovation of transportability in the completely erected state." "e. Advances constructability beyond any discovered to date in a tested version of military shelter design." "f. Submits in this design a produceability that is not involved and whose requirements for special jigs and tooling to produce large quantities are relatively insignificant. Materials proposed for the present design have production capacities in excess of demand." "g. Offers _phenomenal_ savings in weight, packaged volume, cost and man-hour erection time." "2. It is also concluded that there exists today a tested version of a military Geodesic Dome of proven design which has been evaluated against 89 percent of Marine Aviation shelter needs and found far superior to presently used shelters. One other model now under procurement so similar to the tested model that its suitability seems assured will satisfy 10 more percent of the shelter needs of aviation totaling over 99 percent. However, because of definitely greater potentialities possible from this design principle with further development, it is acknowledged that present designs now in hand are 'interim models' only." "3. That further research and development on the military application of the Geodesic Dome principle is essential and must be continued." "4. That adoption of the Geodesic Dome type of shelters will greatly increase the mobility and flexibility of Marine Aviation and provide a type of shelter which allows high immediate and sustained operational efficiency." "5. Use of this type shelter at Fleet Marine Force continental bases for all functions except personnel quarters will afford continual training in all occupational specialities in advanced base types of shelters, greatly improving operational efficiency when deployed." "B. RECOMMENDATIONS" "1. That general purpose Geodesic Dome type shelters be adopted by Marine Aviation to replace all tents now authorized in current allowances." "2. That for purposes of economy the domes be phased into the Aircraft, Fleet Marine Forces as replacements for tents which have become unserviceable due to age or deterioration." "3. That the 55 foot Geodesic Dome aircraft shelters be provided the Aircraft, Fleet Marine Forces immediately to fill a requirement for which there is no available substitute." "4. That a continuing research and development project be established concurrently with the testing and evaluation of prototype models in order to expedite delivery of first production type Geodesic Domes and to extract maximum benefit from this construction principle in its application to military shelters." Please see _Final Report: A Study of Shelter Logistics for Marine Corps Aviation_ (1954) by Colonel Henry C. Lane, U.S. Marine Corps, pages 113-14. For copies of the complete report please contact either: the Buckminster Fuller Institute at bfi@aol.com or Kiyoshi Kuromiya at kiyoshi@critpath.org -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 19:33:59 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Vincent J. Matsko" Organization: Sponsored account, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Subject: G.E.N.I. CONFERENCE I am wondering if anyone would be interested in putting me up if and when I attend the upcoming Fuller conference in San Diego. I will have some interesting toys with me, and would gladly give an autographed copy of the second printing of my book (A TAXONOMY OF FUNDAMENTAL POLYHEDRA AND TESSELLATIONS). I will be driving out and I know my way around the area. Reply to wink@southwind.net please. Thanks, Wink (Geometers might want to take a look at the shape on my home page) http://www.southwind.net/~wink/ There's lots more where that came from! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 09:19:54 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FOG GUN FULLER'S FOG GUN (Pictures) "88-91" "Fuller considered the Dymaxion bathroom as an interim, mass-producible, sanitary facility; his fog gun, pictured here, afforded a new method of bathing." "It combined compressed air and atomized water with triggered-in solvents." "The kinetic force of the high-pressure air stream was utilized without the skin-damaging effect unavoidable in high-pressure needle-pointing of water streams." "Generalizing from his Navy experience, in which engine room greases on the skin were almost unnoticeably removed by wind and fog on deck, Fuller reasoned--and later demonstrated-- that the feeding of atomized water and air at high pressure on to the skin surface would accelerate the surface oxidation, and release the surface cells themselves, along with the attached dirt." "The round pictures show magnifications of the skin surface." "Two of the pictures show the dirt interspersing the 'coral reeflike' structure of the pores. (1927-1948)" (Picture) "92" "Research students at the Institute of Design, Chicago, in 1948 testing the Fog Gun." "(Subsequent experiments were conducted at Yale and other universities.)" "A one-hour massaging pressure bath used only a pint of water." "If fog gun bathing were done in front of a heat lamp, all the sanitary and muscle-relaxing effects of other types of bathing could be effected without the use of any bathroom." "Since there were no run-off waters, tons of plumbing and enclosing walls could be eliminated, and bathing would become as much an 'in-the-bedroom' process as dressing." "Fuller holds that the other functions of the bathroom may be effected by odorless, dry-packaging machinery, employing modern plastics, electronic sealing, and dry-conveying systems." Please see: _The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller_ by R.Buckminster Fuller and Robert Marks (1973) pages 99-100. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 18:52:00 +0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dagan Packman Subject: 2 Questions I have 2 questions... 1. I have read some information regarding Fuller in a book by Robert Anton Wilson (non-fiction). Wilson stated that Fuller had calculated the 'rate of increase in the quantity of available information'. Wilson said, Fuller had noticed that the amount of information available had doubled between the years 4000 B.C. and 0. Information doubled again between 0 and 1500. The doubling of information continues to occur in less time. Wilson went on to say that Fuller had found that information was now (1992 - the year the Wilson book was published) doubling every 3 months. Most importantly (and here lies my question), information would double every nanosecond in the year 2012. My questions regarding this: What would occur when information began to double every nanosecond? Or at the equivalent of the speed of light? Also about this subject... I have not seen it discussed in any of Fullers books. Does anyone know where this information originally came from? (Wilson had met Fuller) 2. Although at times Fullers work is quite difficult to read (Myself not having any scientific education) it is still quite apparent that his ideas and designs would actually work. Personally I have very little e for humans, but if after reading some of what Fuller had written, I see there is (was?) a solution. My question... Why is nothing being acomplished with Fuller's work? Too few domes are built, the cost (currently) I would assume is far beyond the possible cost. Politics, it seems to me is a problem, but still, after so many years, practically nothing is being done in any government which is associated with Fullers ideas. WHY? Thats all... Dagan Packman packman@glas.apc.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:17:04 -0700 Reply-To: ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Denis F. Blue" Subject: fly's eye shades "The cylindrically rimmed circular openings (of the Fly's Eye Dome) will be tensilely covered with opaque, translucent, or transparent glass, plastic film, metal glazing or screening, or some combination thereof." From: Critical Path by R.Buckminster Fuller ................................. I know it's a bit early- what? 40 years? - to be suggesting design details on the Fly's Eye Dome. OK: AFTER we save the world , AND THEN mass-produce and air-deliver the Fly's Eye Dome, THEN I think it might be a good idea to try the following idea. Because the windows of the Fly's Eye Dome are circular it struck me that a unique advantage of a circle is its ability to be spun . Then it occurred that this would be an advantage if one was to mount two sheets of polarized transparent glass into each of the circular openings for the windows on the Fly's Eye Dome. By doing this residents would be able to exactly control the level of light coming through a window. They would tune in a desired level of illumination through a window by simply rotating one of the two polarized sheets of glass in the circular window frame of the FE dome. (For those not familiar with polarizing lenses, you can view this trick by taking two lenses from polarized sunglasses , placing one lens in front of another and rotating one of them. In some orientations you can block out all light to your eye , in other orientations nearly all the light comes through.) Just a quick speculation for the Future File... Denis Blue P.S. The spelling of "polarized" is the Canadian spelling... -- ### ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: 2 Questions You ask: "Politics, it seems to me is a problem, but still, after so many years, practically nothing is being done in any government which is associated with Fullers ideas. WHY?" According to my (neophyte - but learning) understanding of Bucky's writings most industrially developed nations - governments and the financiers which influence them are not motivated to bring about sustainable eco-solutions -- but only to retain their own power -- which is why their power should be strictly limited and solutions sought through the other institutions of society. To rephrase some e-list posts: "... its only in economic freedom (which we do not have at present) that people evolve natural environment-friendly self-sustaining eco-economic systems." In the spirit of the world working for 100% of humanity (see the writings of R. Buckminster Fuller) in a sustainable way and as rapidly as possible: (This text is from an article that was written for conventional economists and has been sent to numerous media outlets and various e- lists. This article was written with the idea that a very specific societal change -- the restoration of economic freedom by no longer requiring people to use money (by eliminating personal taxation in the U.S.A.) [thus eliminating a certain type of power base] -- would establish the best possibilities for a civilized world. To quote: "All right and sustainable societal change can be brought about by 'moralsuasion' and a good character based economic life." and "If personal taxes are eliminated then people set up a natural, more efficient and more truly profitable barter system which has at its center good character and personal trust." and "This type of civilization evolves locally self-sustaining inter-networked human eco-systems with naturally balanced resource distribution systems -- i.e., the planet naturally works for 100% of humanity...") Ecology and economics -- the two can be one, in a healthy economy there is zero negative environmental impact -- its all positive as human beings are a freely working part of nature. [... on the proper role of government: as government is the only human institution which is vested with coercive power then its only legitimate role is to prevent coercion among people (like stopping criminals), i.e., to guarantee freedom and unalienable rights (as in deterring dictators). Government coercion/manipulation in any area of society always (at best) slows down natural healthy societal evolution and (at worst) stifles this evolution (leading to the people making significant adjustments in the government as the evolutionary lesson that society inevitable learns is that only freedom is sustainable). The use of government coercion to manipulate societal flow never works for the best possibilities. All right and sustainable societal change can be brought about by "moralsuasion" and a good character based economic life.]. ... a very simple plan of action, and it works: its called (in the U.S.A.) repealing the sixteenth amendment, having only even tariffs (if any), revitalizing the ninth and tenth amendments and then natural societal evolution will lead to a sustainable environmental friendly society. For evidence on the true good nature of most people (which would override the other in a barter economy) see "The Federalist Papers", DeTocquville's "Democracy in America" and the American Psychologist 1982 article called "Psychology Utopia and the Commons." For other info/evidence see the book "Critical Path" by R.B. Fuller and the book about the history of taxation called "For Good and Evil" by Adams (cspan did a booknotes on it). ....some simple freedoms would bring about the natural evolution of solutions, given how things are today. ... people will be able to feed themselves if they have economic freeedom and unalienable rights are protected (and this should be the U.N.'s goal -- not capital/resource re- distribution). "Those who give up liberty in order to attain security will soon find that they have neither." Benjamin Franklin. Patrick Alessandra Jr. / _.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX. 77057 USA Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:29:08 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Re: 2 Questions Dagan, you ask interesting questions. Let me address the second one, where you ask why Fuller's ideas have not been more widely implemented. This is my opinion only. . . Fuller *began* his career by offering two radically more efficient design solutions for basic human needs, the Dymaxion Car and House. We can quibble over how practical these solutions actually were as prototypes, but I think everybody will agree that these solutions are far more efficient in terms of materials and energy use than the transport and housing solutions offered to us in the marketplace. Had the prototypes been properly funded and developed they would have changed the world. The problem is that creating such vast efficiencies in these two huge industries, auto and housing, would create structural changes in the economy like nobody's every seen before. It would create economic change on a biblical scale. Fuller said again and again that we could make mankind a success -- that there was *enough* for everybody on the planet when we can do more with less. Unfortunately the world-dominant economies are constructed on a Malthusian scarcity model where people must compete for scarce resources. Without sounding like a paranoiac, I believe those who have won this Malthusian game are intent on keeping it that way -- and nobody knows what an abundance economy would look like or how it would work. My $.02 for this afternoon. Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:46:42 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: 2 Questions >Wilson said, Fuller had noticed that the amount of information >available had doubled between the years 4000 B.C. and 0. Reasonable >Information doubled again between 0 and 1500. I'll buy that too. >The doubling of information continues to occur in less time. It depends on what you want to call "information". If we eliminate redundant copies and variations, the actual "new" information is less than the total. For a good example, look at the size of a typical UseNet newsfeed. The total number of postings and bytes has gone up and up, but cross-posting and replies that quote the entire "first" posting are also on the rise. The actual increase in useable information has not gone up too much in most groups, we just have a larger number of people writing "letters to the editor", when there IS no "editor". (Killer metaphor, huh?) >Wilson went on to say that Fuller had found that information >was now (1992 - the year the Wilson book was published) >doubling every 3 months. The total number of BYTES (text or data) may have increased, but this is all NOT "information". >Most importantly (and here lies my question), information >would double every nanosecond in the year 2012. Naw, that is a trend-line extrapolation. There are limits! Don't let your model run amok!!! Using the same approach, I could say that my sourdough bread mix should apply for UN membership, since it will someday increase in size to a point where it will be larger than the entire USA. "Information" has a very poor definition. Shannon and friends would define ANYTHING at all as information, as long as it can be transmitted. If we use the term "useful facts" rather than "information", we have a better handle on the subject. This paragraph might be called "information". (Given that I wrote it, you may wish to argue this point!!) If you e-mail it to a friend, you have created a copy on his disc. The total amount of "information" has therefore "doubled", but since it is a mere copy, the 2nd copy cannot be a reason for saying that we have increased "the available pool of information" at all. Nowdays, we have a 20th century cargo cult that worships at the altar of "information". The problem with this sort of mindless infatuation with all things digital is most of them make exactly the same error - they assume that all "information" has value. This is not true. The first copy has value. The 2nd has less value than the first, since if the first were available to all, copies would not be required. When people talk about a "waste of bandwidth", they are getting the idea. >My question... Why is nothing being acomplished with Fuller's >work? Quite a few things HAVE been accomplished, small though they might be. Don't expect any sort of sudden change, where people suddenly "get it". A few thousand years ago, a man was nailed to a tree for daring to suggest that people should be nice to each other. Things have changed little since then... The earth is populated by Scientists, who practice the art of infallibility, and Non-Scientists, who are taken in by it. James Fischer jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:08:08 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FLOATING BREAKWATER FULLER'S FLOATING BREAKWATERS "There are many, many islands around the world that would be happily inhabited had they harbors." "It is a question of whether the direction of the wind means that boats left at moorings on what would be the lee side of the island may, a few hours later, be on the windward side." "Breakwaters consisting of rock or masonry cost vast amounts of money." "I began to realize that the inertia of water itself, if trapped, could serve as a breakwater." "In the last few decades, large rubber tubes ten or twenty feet in diameter have been filled with water, and have served very effectively as dams in rivers." "I saw that there was a possibility that the mass inertia of trapped-water dams would lift with the approaching waves, and that the elevated water could be made to flow 90 degrees to serve as a propellant of the water's motion to generate power." "So I undertook to produce such floating breakwaters and found that they work successfully." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "My first floating breakwaters were very severe on the materials used, especially if they were pressured, so my second patent was designed to reduce those pressures without, in any way, losing the principle of waterpower generation, as well as the interference with the onshore wind and waves protection." "This second system employs the inherent strength of inter-hinged boom triangles and also employs the distributed lifting strains of the enormous masses of water which are progressively elevated." "The elevated water is then directed at right angles to the waves to pass through turbines, thus generating power." Please see _Inventions_ by R. Buckminster Fuller (1983) pages 269 and 281, or U.S. Patent # 3,863,455, "Floatable Breakwater" (1975) and U.S. Patent # 4,136,994, "Floating Breakwater" (1979). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:26:42 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Paul R. Kosuth" Subject: Re: 2 Questions In-Reply-To: <01HSPDQMAV1Y9GZGB8@delphi.com> concerning the two questions---- specifically, why have Fullers ideas not been more greatly implemented. My two cents, go back to what Fuller discussed about a "lag" time between inception/prototype and the completions or the full implementation of the solution. I think that he said that there was a 25 or 40 year lag time ( my notes are at home so can't put my finger o the info) -- even with this lag time, I agree that we are still decades away from any real use of the ideas. As a math and sci teacher, I try to instill the ideas and experiences of Fullers views and geometry when possible . This spring we built a large icosa greenhouse, hopefully this fall we will build a 2 freq outdoor workspace. These things have an impact-- but it takes time Paul Kosuth prkosuth@prairienet.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 17:09:40 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SUBMARISLE FULLER'S UNDERSEA ISLANDS "Ocean wave turbulence does not penetrate deeply below the surface." "Fourteen or twenty feet below the surface there is no turbulence." "Because humanity is developing more and more submarines for more and more military purposes, I could see that the law of shipbuilding advantage applied: every time you double the length of a ship you increase its volume and therefore its payload eight times while increasing its surface only four times." "Every time you double the length of a ship, your payload-to-surface advantage doubles, therefore you have less surface to build and drive through the water." "So giant submarines will become very effective around the world as transports operating entirely below any turbulence." "I found humanity tending to venture on the sea more and more and felt it would be a very great advantage to build submarisles with lighthouses sticking up above the water and landing docks when there is not too much turbulence but making it possible for the submarines to dock below the surface." "I could see that we needed to have islands such as the submarisle all around the world to make possible the changing of cargoes at various points." Please see _Inventions_ by R.Buckminster Fuller (1983) pages 194-5 or U.S. Patent # 3,080,583 "Submarisle" (1963). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 17:21:51 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: 2 Questions In-Reply-To: ; from "Paul R. Kosuth" at Jul 10, 95 2:26 pm Paul R. Kosuth writes: > > concerning the two questions---- specifically, why have Fullers ideas not > been more greatly implemented. My two cents, go back to what Fuller > discussed about a "lag" time between inception/prototype and the > completions or the full implementation of the solution. I think that he > said that there was a 25 or 40 year lag time ( my notes are at home so > can't put my finger o the info) -- even with this lag time, I agree that > we are still decades away from any real use of the ideas. As a math and > sci teacher, I try to instill the ideas and experiences of Fullers views > and geometry when possible . This spring we built a large icosa > greenhouse, hopefully this fall we will build a 2 freq outdoor workspace. > These things have an impact-- but it takes time > > Paul Kosuth > prkosuth@prairienet.org > .- > Paul, Could you post pictures of your past and/or future dome projects? Or maybe a set of how-to instructions? Or maybe what you learned from the project? I think one of the reasons that Bucky's ideas haven't caught on is the lack of global media exposure; most people just have never heard of his ideas. But I think the Internet will change all that very quickly. I think we will see a lot of his ideas implemented in the next 5 years. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 17:17:21 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: New Book: Nature's Numbers Several people have inquired about my self-published book: Nature's Numbers. It is 104 pages soft bound. 8.5 x 11 inches. It is not an attempt to explain Fuller's mathematics. It is an extention of Fuller's geometry to numbers. Fuller notes that the words "sunset" and "up" are anachronistic, and I try to show that out current Hindu-Arabic "base" ten number system is also anachonistic. It was developed before widespread knowledge of gravity, round-earth, and clocks. Its a very primitive system. The back of the book says: What will numbers of the future look like? Does a ten-grouping system blind us to certain aspects of nature? What is the best number grouping ("base") for an economy? Is the "five-per-hand" model the only workable anatomical model for counting? I have taught these "numbers of the future" now to over 2600 students here in the Los Angeles area. We are currently making a video of my lecture to be shown here in LA on public access cable. The video, "Numbers of the Future", is also available. Cost of the book is total 24.00 plus shipping: 26.75 for california residents 28.73 outside USA 31.75 Cost of the video is the same. If you want to order both 40.00 plus shipping 44.00 california 47.63 outside USA 49.00 If lots of people order I'll be able to reduce the price. If you are interested send check to: Bill Lauritzen 809-D East Garfield Glendale, CA 91205 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 07:44:17 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: ECOC ECOC Organization: The Dorsai Embassy - New York Subject: Hard to heat, cool, leaks like siv After reading a number of books on the subject of geodesic domes, I am under the impression that its use has completely fallen out of favor. It is my impression that geodesic domes are very hard to heat, very hard to cool and that they tend to leak. They were an idea of the 60's that simply failed to live up to the expectation. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 18:23:00 +0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dagan Packman Subject: 2 Questions - Revisited Here I ramble on based on some responses to my questions. Excuse me. The amount of time that has passed since Fuller's works originated is disproportinate to the effect those works have had on society. Taking into consideration the time factor, the structural changes to the economy would not have been shocks to the system. To expect Fuller's works to have been implemented shortly after discovery is an error, based not only on Fuller's own words that there is a time lag between the original developement of an idea and the ideas practical use, but also due to the fact that the industries which Fuller targeted are strongly resistant to change. Change is expensive. But again such time has passed that it is correct to expect the industries and society in general to currently be moving in the direction of a human/world-centric style of living. When I look at society, I see not an inkling of Fullers ideas. I still have no answer to my question, WHY?. The press could be to blame, but Fuller has been written up numerous times. Politics and Industry are at fault, certainly. But the real blame falls on the heads of the people. The majority of the people don't care enough, or don't think for themselves. Until the people begin to think and care, you won't see a change in course away from destruction. How quickly are people changing? Either quick enough or not, believe what you like. Society is a product of itself. We teach each other how to live every day. Most importantly we teach our children how to live. As Fuller has explained, society wastes energy teaching in schools at the wrong age levels. Age 1 to 8 are the most formative years, yet colleges are thought to be the most important institution for the youth. At the public grade school level, a student will never hear a teacher refer to Fuller in the context of the curriculum. The same is true of college unless the student takes specific engineering or mathematical courses. It's been almost sixty years since the creation of the dymaxion car, yet I bet most students in automotive engineering haven't heard of it. About 10 years ago, someone told me an interesting metaphor. If there were 500 apples on the planet, and they could be divided equally among the planets population, then if one person took twice their portion, that would leave less for every other person. This is obviously based on Malthus, and as Fuller has proven, is not accurate. Contrary to Fuller, there is no place on earth where this 500 apple metaphor doesn't hold true. Regarding 'Information' As I posted earlier, I had asked about the increase in the rate of the increase in information. jfisher brought up a very good point. What is information? Well, this has no definitive answer I believe. Information is NOT material. In the case of Fuller's views on information increase, and although I haven't read his exact words, I thought of the amount of information present as the sum of all knowledge. If this is what he was refering to than whether repetative or even direct copies exist is irrelevant because they wouldn't have an effect on the sum of all knowledge. Now to quote: >ME> Wilson wrote that Fuller said: information would double every >ME> nanosecond in the year 2012. >jfishcer> ... that is a trend-line extrapolation. There are limits! ... >jfischer> Using the same approach ... my sourdough breadmix ... will >jfischer> someday increase in size to the point where it will be larger >jfischer> than the entire USA. I disagree here. Let me explain. There are no limits, if the opposite were true infinity wouldn't exist. In my statement, information is non- physical and the rate of its increase is nearly impossible to change. How can anything alter something that is global and non-physical? If your sourdough breadmix was un-alterable and constant (non-detractive, as is the amount of information) then it would someday be larger than the USA. When I refer to information in my statements, I refer to the total sum of all knowledge. I am not sure if this is what Fuller was refering to but that is what I assume. I would like to hear from someone as to where in any of Fullers books he discusses this increase in information. Anyone know? Sorry for the rambling length, Dagan Packman packman@glas.apc.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 08:01:18 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: ASPENSION FULLER'S ASPENSION STRUCTURES "I found in the world of tensegrity it was also feasible to produce what I call the aspension dome, a dome that could be progressively assembled on the ground from its maximum-diameter base and continually hoisted aloft." "This is really an alternative to the tensegrity geodesics." "It has an accordian-opening effect such as the foldable Japanese lantern, which can be progressively pulled open to provide space." Please see: 'Inventions' by R. Buckminster Fuller (1983) page 201 and U.S. Patent # 3,139,957 (1964). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 22:35:10 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: help with cosmography question I have been trying to post the following on the synergetics-l to no avail. Can someone help with Cosmography. I am on page 56. Previous to that I have understood Bucky's propellor descriptions and his gyroscope description. Now I am where he is spinning a tetrahedron on different axis, that is one set of three great circles, one set of 6 great circles, and one set of four great circles. The first question which I may have answered myself is how does he come out with ninety-six A modules and forty-eight B modules? I think after looking into Synergetics 1 and 2 that he is just talking about the first layer inside a VE formed by the great circles when the tetrahedron was spun. (refers to pg 55) I am lost however when he talks about the two A modules having a constant in universe (-) whereas the alternative left and right winging of the inherently entropic B modules operate singly, left-handedness producing a negative proclivity, and right-handedness, a positive proclivity. Therefore, LB = (-) * (-) = (+) and RB = (-) * (+) = (-) therefore, LB = (+) and RB = (-) (I ASSUME LB IS FOR LEFTHAND B MODULE. BUT WHY SAY LB EQUALS A NEG TIMES A NEG) There is more to this but I will leave it there to see if someone can help me with this first part. His demonstration is to show that there is twice as much gravity as radiation so I would like to understand this model he is describing. thanks swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 09:10:59 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: 2 Questions - Revisited In-Reply-To: ; from "Dagan Packman" at Jul 11, 95 6:23 pm Fuller measured knowledge growth in terms of the increase in the number of scientific and abstract journals, and by the volume of technical documents. See World Design Science Documents # 4 (page 86) and # 6 (page 56). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:54:30 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: 2 Questions - Revisited Hello, I suppose that the general question of why more good ideas (such as Bucky's) are not at least being taught as alternatives in school (i.e., I never saw a course on Synergetics offered at the various colleges I looked at) could be answered (as I do not believe in conspiracy theories) as having to do with a twofold social-evolutionary issue: 1. The inertia of status quo systems (industry and gov't) and their financial intertwinning. 2. The lack of freedom of the majority of people from those systems, and the general inability of people to free themselves from the systems without first having to contribute to them vis a vi the making of money. The rules for the making of money tend to be set in such a manner so as to support no. 1. These two processes result in a viscious circle. When there is economic freedom (which does not exist in the developed nations today primarily because of personal taxation) then the circle ceases to exist and one's security is not related to money but to relationships among people. A natural barter economy then evolves that allows for far greater freedom -- so good ideas can more easily be experimented with, developed and made generally available. "More powerful than all the armies of the world is an idea whose time has come." (who said this?) Patrick Alessandra Jr. a.Priori 6524 San Felipe #323 Houston, TX 77057 USA Compuserve Address: 72203,3461. America OnLine: APRIORIPAA Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:25:56 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY'S STRATEGY BUCKY'S STRATEGY "I must avoid setting too short an overall consummation period for my critical path." "It was of prime importance that I adopt a target date so far in the future as to avoid making uneasy any of the power structures of 1927-- which might feel that their interests were threatened by what I was proposing." "It was necessary that I reach so far beyond the power structures' research-determined vision of their most forward development that my concepts would appear to be either a pleasant 'pipe dream' or innocuous nonsense." "I was able to do exactly that." "The most powerful people I knew found me utterly unaccreditable but 'interesting'-- and to some 'fascinating.'" "This induced them to invite me to their parties to entertain their guests with my 'dreaming out loud.'" "For this reason the power structure's press very frequently gave my projects prominent publicity-- because they found my concepts popularly entertaining, they published them ever more frequently and prominently, hoping for advertisements-inducing, increased readership." "In 1930 the author of 'Buck Rogers' told me that he frequently used my concepts for his cartoons." Please see: 'Critical Path' by R.Buckminster Fuller (1981) pages 261-2. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:40:25 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: 2 Questions - Revisited In-Reply-To: from "Dagan Packman" at Jul 11, 95 06:23:00 pm Dagan Packman: > When I look at society, I see not an inkling of Fullers > ideas. I still have no answer to my question, WHY?. The press could be > to blame, but Fuller has been written up numerous times. Politics and > Industry are at fault, certainly. But the real blame falls on the heads > of the people. The majority of the people don't care enough, or don't > think for themselves. Until the people begin to think and care, you > won't see a change in course away from destruction. i think that fuller's ideas have to be applied more subtly than even he himself may have applied them at times. one of the most compelling memes for me in fuller's philosophy is his precession metaphor. fuller anticipated gestatation rates before his work would be accepted, but he also emphasized the importance of the _unanticipatable_. i therefore try to look for subtle ways in which the world may be moving in the right direction, and i see many. one of the most powerful 'unanticipatables' is the computer revolution. fuller didn't live long enough to see the dramatic growth of the net, but if he had, i feel he would have labeled it a fulfillment of his 'education automation' anticipation. the potentials of the net are as yet in infancy. it is, quite simply, too early to tell what kind of dramatic effect sophisticated global communication may have on the progress of society. another unanticipatable, one that still isn't well understood by most people, is the potential of nanotechnology - manufacturing at the atomic scale. nanotechnology is the limiting case of fuller's 'doing more with less', and the potential for it to change the world, for better or for worse (utopia or oblivion) is dramatic indeed. nanotechnology could indeed fulfill fuller's anticipation of tremendous wealth for all - i suspect that the wealth of nanotechnology even surpasses fuller's own anticipation of the large amount of wealth accessible by 'doing more with less'. with the wealth of nanotechnology, the dominance behavior now prevalent on our planet may become irrelevant and obsolete, simply because human labor will no longer be the richest source of power. this idea may itself have dire consequences - it is no less horrific to imagine abandoned portions of humanity than dominated ones. but nanotechnology will make the support of humanity so inexpensive that it would be nearly effortless to allow the technology to work for everyone as opposed to a policy of abandonment. fuller's philosophy differs from most other idealist, utopian philosophies in that it _doesn't_ presuppose that everyone (or a majority) needs to agree with its ideas before any good can be done. the history of politics is full of demonstrations that such single-minded majorities are hard to come by. in place of this 'salvation-by-rhetoric/conversion' fuller offers the techniques of synergetics, whereby _those interested_ (even if they be few) might be able to fully comprehend what is actually going on in the world, both socially and scientifically, and use this knowledge in the creation of artifacts (both technological artifacts and 'memetic artifacts') designed to alter the _environment_ of cultural evolution. when the environment is altered, as all good evolutionists know, the game of evolution changes. some problems become obsolete, and new problems arise. there will never be a shortage of new problems, but synergetics offers methods and ideas to assist in the gradual solution or obsolescence of problems that _threaten global humanity_ - problems that, once done away with, will be replaced by problems that are, in comparison, mundane. these new problems will, no doubt, be debated just as vigorously as the old ones, and may even preclude the label 'utopia' from being appropriate for some (accomodating the idea, that many people insist upon, that utopia is unreachable). if a minor-utopia is defined in a simplistic way as a reasonable level of comfort, then many people live utopian lives today. utopia for all seems unreachable simply because of the expense involved, and the application of a fullerian efficiency might make the expense more reachable. this 'efficiency now' is the fullerian philosophy that is easily seen as not-working-as-expected, which is dismaying, and which seems to indicate that fuller's ideas aren't working and might even have outlasted their usefulness, but i see this philosophy as an offshoot of the central ideas of synergetics, which have a life outside of fuller's intentions for them. even if none of fuller's inventions get applied (at least in any obvious ways), the concepts of synergetics, doing more with less, precession, etc., will still be valuable tools for the analysis of universe and the creation of tools to effect changes in universe. the game is far from over, and far from easy - i tend to doubt there will ever be an obvious 'turning point' after which the correct path will clearly have been taken by the world, with utopia inevitable. it seems to me that both the problems and the solutions will complexify before a design science revolution actually succeeds in 'making the world work for everyone' - and that prior to the time this success becomes (retrospectively) easily apparant, the problems yet extant will perhaps seem still enormous. > Society is a product of itself. We teach each other how to live every > day. Most importantly we teach our children how to live. As Fuller has > explained, society wastes energy teaching in schools at the wrong age > levels. Age 1 to 8 are the most formative years, yet colleges are > thought to be the most important institution for the youth. education is clearly paramount, which is why i have emphasized the internet as a fulfillment of fuller's 'education automation' anticipation. education automation will put learning in the hands of the learners themselves, who are the only ones qualified to filter (inherently subjective) noise from signal, and discover the truths that are as-yet obscured. a self-directed learner will not only be able to get information during the early 'formative years', but will be able to continue learning along their own path indefinately... becoming 'lifelong learners' - retaining the 'formative' ideal even beyond 8 years of age. >>> Wilson wrote that Fuller said: information would double every >>> nanosecond in the year 2012. > james fischer: >> ... that is a trend-line extrapolation. There are limits! ... > > I disagree here. Let me explain. There are no limits, if the opposite > were true infinity wouldn't exist. In my statement, information is non- > physical and the rate of its increase is nearly impossible to change. > How can anything alter something that is global and non-physical? information is non-physical in a sense, but in another sense, it is physical - everything is part of the same, finite universe. there are no infinities, except as conceptual tools. memetic (cultural) evolution requires the med