From MAILER-DAEMON@netaxs.com Thu Nov 16 17:10:48 1995 Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [128.205.2.1]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA20574 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:06:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199511161806.NAA20574@access.netaxs.com> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3861; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:04:23 EST Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3108; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:04:13 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:04:00 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8b)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9507" To: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 02:13:41 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: smtc5@UOFT02.UTOLEDO.EDU Organization: University of Toledo Subject: Re: exact digital world map ? In Article <3smk8n$jr3@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> halanek@ibm.net writes: >Hi, > >Does someone knows, where I can get a good world map, which is not saved >as a picture, but where the lines of the continents are saved as points ? >Because I want to zoom to the map, and I want to view it as a globe. If >someone knows a ftp server, please contact me via E - mail, because I'm not >very often in this newsgroup. > >Bye/2 > >FROM Rainer WITH OS/2 3.00 > Please post as well. Thanks, Steve MatherAterTh ankss ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 12:01:49 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: GLOBAL ENERGY GRID Hello, To solve our energy problems: The image of Bucky on his sailboat comes to mind -- the use of simple engineering to tap the vast natural energy flow of our planet to move a boat -- without the continuous expenditure of finite resources -- perhaps what we need is a new style or type of technology based on styles or types of energy that can be locally operative (thus avoiding the inefficiencies and possible misuse of any centralized system) -- just as a sail allows one to use the energy of natural air flow to traverse the oceans -- I believe there can be an equally simple method of letting each community, house, dome, car, etc. be energy self-sufficient and operate by tapping natural planetary energy flow -- and that it is adaptable localization that should be our goal. This could be done by using solar heat, wind, oceanic motion, etc -- whatever is locally operative. Perhaps there is some means of using the geometric relations of synergy to tape the precession of our planet and the weather for energy generation? If we want to get energy to all people as rapidly as possible then we need to go where they are and show them how to set up a local energy generation system that they themselves can maintain (assuming that they would really like to change their lifestyles accordingly). We could certainly design-engineer a great variety of natural energy devices and make them available to all (been done in many books). I read somehere that a large geodesic dome made of the right materials would actually float like a bubble if the air inside were only 1 degree warmer than the outside air -- this can be done with passive solar and add a sail and solar propeller we have a natural air transport system (strange scifi thought I guess). It seems to me that the only sustainable and sufficiently flexible energy system is one that is locally adapted based on tapping the natural energy flow that our local cosmic system generates all the time anyway. Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 09:55:48 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: GLOBAL ENERGY GRID In-Reply-To: <950701120147_106138486@aol.com>; from "Patrick Alessandra Jr." at Jul 1, 95 12:01 pm Patrick Alessandra Jr. writes: > > Hello, > > To solve our energy problems: The image of Bucky on his sailboat comes to > mind -- the use of simple engineering to tap the vast natural energy flow of > our planet to move a boat -- without the continuous expenditure of finite > resources -- perhaps what we need is a new style or type of technology based > on styles or types of energy that can be locally operative (thus avoiding the > inefficiencies and possible misuse of any centralized system) -- just as a > sail allows one to use the energy of natural air flow to traverse the oceans > -- I believe there can be an equally simple method of letting each community, > house, dome, car, etc. be energy self-sufficient and operate by tapping > natural planetary energy flow -- and that it is adaptable localization that > should be our goal. This could be done by using solar heat, wind, oceanic > motion, etc -- whatever is locally operative. Perhaps there is some means of > using the geometric relations of synergy to tape the precession of our planet > and the weather for energy generation? If we want to get energy to all > people as rapidly as possible then we need to go where they are and show them > how to set up a local energy generation system that they themselves can > maintain (assuming that they would really like to change their lifestyles > accordingly). We could certainly design-engineer a great variety of natural > energy devices and make them available to all (been done in many books). > > I read somehere that a large geodesic dome made of the right materials would > actually float like a bubble if the air inside were only 1 degree warmer than > the outside air -- this can be done with passive solar and add a sail and > solar propeller we have a natural air transport system (strange scifi thought > I guess). It seems to me that the only sustainable and sufficiently flexible > energy system is one that is locally adapted based on tapping the natural > energy flow that our local cosmic system generates all the time anyway. > > > Patrick > .- > Bucky's scientifically designed house would actually capture more energy than it used! See _Critical Path_ pages 310-15. For hot air dome balloons see _Critical Path_ pages 336-7. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 22:25:40 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Lewis Subject: Re: Geodesic toys >Vmountain writes: >> >> you can get kits from Edmund Scientific Catalog to do geo-toys and others. >> You can also contact Avionics Plastics Corp. 55 Kennedy Dr. Hauppauge, NY >> 11788 (516) 231-4900. They make some kits, as well as sell plastic hubs so >> you can make your own with wood dowels. I got mine from Edmund, and called >> them about their OMNI Hubs using 3/16" dowels that are available from >> hardware stores. The hubs are about $2.50 for a 25 pack, w/$5 shipping. >> they 3/4/5/6 spoke hubs. >> >> Bruce Carroll >> .- >> > >Bruce, > >Do you know of any e-mail addresses for these model-building kits? >I'm trying to build up my Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute list. >If you haven't seen it, I'll e-mail it to you--it's up to 10 pages now and >growing! Do you have any e-mail addresses for dome companies? (Or any other >electronic address that's relevant to Fuller's work.) > >Joe > > > >-- > >JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 >850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 >CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. > > I use the Ikoso-Kits. No e-mail address but snail mail is: Ikoso Kits 28667 Spencer Creek Road Eugene, OR 97405 Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Jul 1995 21:08:13 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SELF-CONTAINED HOMES FULLER'S SELF-CONTAINED GEODESIC DOME HOMES "The Fly's Eye uses a very few types of nestable, mass-produced fiberglass, sheet aluminum of thin guage, or polyester-coated sheet steel components that, when assembled, produce a 5/8 sphere of the 'Hex-Pent' geodesic configuration." "As with the ports and pores of all organic systems, the size and shape of these openings sort, sieve and classify the in-bound and out-bound physical-component traffic of metabolic regeneration which the Fly's Eye domes embody." "The Fly's Eye domes' 'pores' are all seven-foot-diameter circular openings." "These circular openings serve alternatively as doors, vents, solar-energy-cell mounts, etc." "The circular openings constitute three-fourths of the surface area of the domes, while the manufactured shell-structure components constitute only one-fourth of the structures' surface." "Since the circles have rigid rims, the closure of the circles can be accomplished by two, spread-apart drumheads of tensed, thin film or fabric materials-- ergo, at low relative cost." "The structural shell components constitute a comprehensive leakproof, watershedding system that, with the circular openings covered, leads all rain and melting snow into the shell's watercourse cisterning system." "The cylindrically rimmed circular openings will be tensilely covered with opaque, translucent, or transparent glass, plastic film, metal glazing or screening, or some combination thereof." "They will serve as energy harvesters in the operation of the dwelling by parabolically collecting incoming energy in sunlight foci, liquid-heating cells and by circular-opening-mounted, wind-drag-driven, air turbines." "Fly's Eye domes are of two sizes." "The smaller twenty-six-foot-diameter one is constructed of only one type of mass-produced, strong, lightweight, hyperbolic-saddle-form component;" "The larger fifty-foot-diameter one is comprised of only two types of mass-produced structural shell and watershed-constituting components, which are also of the hyperbolic-saddle type." "Both twenty-six- and fifty-foot-diameter domes can consist of two concentric identical domes with a space of six inches between and no metallic interconnectors-- this spacing produces highly effective insulation as well as an excellent hot- and cold-air ducting system." "The concentric domes' interconnection is accomplished with a seven-foot- diameter outside circle and six-inch-deep conic tubes made fast at the seven-foot outside end of the circular openings of the spheres." "The smaller Fly's Eye provides the optimally workable fundamentals for comfortable, efficient living in a two-story shelter." "It is small compared to a conventional house, but huge next to a van, camper, or almost any of the thousands of yachts enthusiastically occupied while tied up at the marina slips." "Optimum use of space will be important." "The larger Fly's Eye is fifty feet in diameter, capable of enclosing three or more stories (each of 2000-square-foot floor area), a garden, trees, and a pool." "While also equipped with all the living essentials at different levels, its space utilization will be quite different from the smaller Fly's Eye-- the fifty-footer accommodates what we call the Garden of Eden living-- living in a garden." "The Fly's Eye domes are designed as components of a 'livingry' service." "The basic hardware components will produce a beautiful, fully equipped, air-deliverable house that weighs and costs about as much as a good automobile." "Not only will it be highly efficient in its use of energy and materials, it also will be capable of harvesting incoming light and wind energies." "The software part of the product will include a service industry to air- or highway-transport, install, lease, maintain, remove, and relocate the domes or their separate hardware components." "And as mentioned, they will not be sold." "Both the twenty-six- and fifty-foot Fly's Eye domes are semiautonomous-- i.e., have no sewer, water-pipe, or electric-power-supply connections." "The personal hygiene, clothes- and utensil-washing functions are accomplished with the high-pressure, compressed air and atomized water fog gun which requires only a pint of water per hour." "The human excrement is sittingly deposited in the dry-packaging toilet." "The human sits on fresh, plastic-film-covered, fore-and-aft seat halves." "The excrement falls into the top-open plastic tube as it is formed by the two converging edges of the two plastic sheets, which are then electrosealed together from the originally separate two plastic film rolls, whose filmstrips first covered the two seat-sides." "The hermetically sealed-off tubular section containing the excrement is then mechanically detached and conveyed away as litter to be neatly packed in a corrugated carton clearly marked for pickup and dispatch to the methane-gas-producing plant and the dry-power fertilizer manufacturer or to be processed into methane gas and fertilizer powder by accessory equipment of the dome home itself." Please see _Critical Path_ by R.Buckminster Fuller, pages 310-15. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 00:29:45 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Relation: synergetics/other maths I recently self published a book called "Nature's Numbers," which you might find interesting. Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 16:54:12 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: Geodesic toys >> > >I use the Ikoso-Kits. > >No e-mail address but snail mail is: > >Ikoso Kits >28667 Spencer Creek Road >Eugene, OR 97405 > > >Andy Hi Andy, Will the Ikoso kit work to make the Isotropic Vector Matrix. thanks swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:20:48 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Relation: synergetics/other maths Comments: To: wlauritzen@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3t57bp$oaa@newsbf02.news.aol.com>; from "WLauritzen" at Jul 2, 95 12:29 am WLauritzen writes: > > I recently self published a book called "Nature's Numbers," which you > might find interesting. Bill Lauritzen > > .- > Bill, How about posting the table of contents of your book to the Geodesic list? That would give everybody an idea of what your book is about. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:40:08 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic toys In-Reply-To: <9507020855.AA24092@highway1.com.au>; from "John Mac Cosham" at Jul 2, 95 4:54 pm John Mac Cosham writes: > > >> > > > >I use the Ikoso-Kits. > > > >No e-mail address but snail mail is: > > > >Ikoso Kits > >28667 Spencer Creek Road > >Eugene, OR 97405 > > > > > >Andy > > Hi Andy, > > Will the Ikoso kit work to make the Isotropic Vector Matrix. > > thanks > > swami dharmraj > aka John Mac Cosham > dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au > > "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller > .- > In my experience, none of the commercial kits have the octet truss/VE in mind. I found that they didn't have connectors with 12 spokes. I ended up making my own out of vinyl tubing. 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter cut into 1 or 1.5 inch pieces with a hole in the middle cut with a leather punch (that had variable size dies on a wheel). Put 6 pieces of tubing together using a 3/4" brad. A little tedious making the first bunch, but after that I never ran out--I could always make more and/or reuse the old ones. Mostly used wooden dowels. Again, once the initial expense and cutting were behind me, I never ran out of parts (or got more dowels or cut some in half). An old model builder, Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:54:23 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: GLOBAL ENERGY GRID Comments: To: Nick Pine In-Reply-To: <9507021156.AA00684@nfs.ee.vill.edu>; from "Nick Pine" at Jul 2, 95 7:56 am Nick Pine writes: > > Hi Joe, > > I don't suppose Critical Path is still in print... > > How big does a solar dome balloon have to be to float? I guess the > weight (surface) to volume ratio goes down as they get bigger... > > Nick > > .- > If you double the size of the dome, you get 8 times the volume but the surface area is only multiplied by 4. I think after the size gets to about a half mile in diameter the ratio of the weight of the structure compared to the weight of contained air is such that it acts like a huge hot air balloon and floats. Last I heard _Critical Path_ was available through the Buckminster Fuller Institute in Santa Barbara (bfi@aol.com). Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 09:58:24 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: SELF-CONTAINED HOMES (fwd) Nick Pine writes: > From nfs.ee.vill.edu!nick Sun Jul 2 05:05:31 1995 > Date: Sun, 2 Jul 95 08:09:34 EDT > From: Nick Pine > Message-Id: <9507021209.AA00720@nfs.ee.vill.edu> > To: joemoore@cruzio.com > Subject: Re: SELF-CONTAINED HOMES > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > In-Reply-To: <199507020411.VAA07887@mail4.netcom.com> > Organization: Villanova University > Cc: > > >"Since the circles have rigid rims, > > the closure of the circles can be accomplished > > by two, spread-apart drumheads > > of tensed, thin film or fabric materials-- > > ergo, at low relative cost." > > This sounds nice. Tedlar (PVF) film, perhaps... > > >"They will serve as energy harvesters > > in the operation of the dwelling > > by parabolically collecting incoming energy > > in sunlight foci, liquid-heating cells > > and by circular-opening-mounted, > > wind-drag-driven, air turbines." > > I wonder how those would work, exactly? I could see parabolas formed > from reflective films, with little receivers mounted on moving arms, > outside, to track the focus as the sun moved... but these air turbines, > what would they look like? Seems like you wouldn't want the air flowing > thru the circular opening, into the house... > > >"Both twenty-six- and fifty-foot-diameter domes > > can consist of two concentric identical domes > > with a space of six inches between > > and no metallic interconnectors-- > > this spacing produces highly effective insulation > > as well as an excellent hot- and cold-air ducting system." > > This space alone would only have an R-value of about 1, unlike say, 6" > of fiberglass insulation with an R-value of 19. But if the two facing > surfaces were shiny, that would raise the R-value to roughly 2 (for > upward heat flow) to 3 (for sideways heatflow) to 14 (for downward > heatflow.) Not exactly "highly-effective," but better... Is that what > Bucky had in mind? Another option is to fill most of the space with > foam beads... > > > the fifty-footer accommodates what we call > > the Garden of Eden living-- > > living in a garden." > > Some Monolithic Domes are along these lines... > > > fully equipped, air-deliverable house that weighs and costs > > about as much as a good automobile." > > I wonder when someone will build these? Pacific Yurts aren't bad, from > what I can see from their literature... > > >"And as mentioned, they will not be sold." > > Oh? > > >"The hermetically sealed-off tubular section > > containing the excrement > > is then mechanically detached > > and conveyed away as litter > > to be neatly packed in a corrugated carton > > clearly marked for pickup and dispatch > > to the methane-gas-producing plant > > and the dry-power fertilizer manufacturer > > or to be processed into methane gas and fertilizer powder > > by accessory equipment of the dome home itself." > > I dunno. It seems to me that it's pretty tough to make recycling work > as it is now, one big problem being the cost of labor... I sorta like > on-site composting for this... > > Nick > > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 12:04:25 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Lewis Subject: Re: Geodesic toys >>> >> >>I use the Ikoso-Kits. >> >>No e-mail address but snail mail is: >> >>Ikoso Kits >>28667 Spencer Creek Road >>Eugene, OR 97405 >> >> >>Andy > >Hi Andy, > >Will the Ikoso kit work to make the Isotropic Vector Matrix. > >thanks > >swami dharmraj >aka John Mac Cosham >dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au > >"Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller > > John: The Ikoso kit consists of "hubs" of plastic tubing which you pierce as desired. Definitely low-tech, but servicable. Like your e-mail address. My daughter has a new pygmy African hedgehog. Andy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:35:44 GMT Reply-To: halanek@ibm.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: halanek@IBM.NET Subject: Re: exact digital world map ? In , smtc5@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes: > >Please post as well. > Thanks, > Steve MatherAterTh ankss Hmmm. What do you mean with this ? Bye/2 FROM Rainer WITH OS/2 3.00 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:49:09 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FLOATING TENSEGRITY SPHERES FULLER'S CLOUD NINE FLOATING TENSEGRITY SPHERES "In 1958 I saw clearly the progression of technical events altering all old engineering concepts regarding the relative increase in the overall weights of structures-- and designed my sky-floating tensegrity structures, which I call 'Cloud Nines'" "A 100-foot-diameter, tensegrity-trussed, geodesic sphere weighing three tons encloses seven tons of air." "The air-to-structural-weight ratio is two to one." "When we double the size so that the geodesic sphere is 200 feet in diameter, the weight of the structure increases to seven tons while the weight of the air increases to fifty-six tons-- the air-to-structure ratio changes as eight to one." "When we double the size again to a 400-foot geodesic sphere-- the size of several geodesic domes now operating-- the weight of the air inside increases to about 500 tons while the weight of the structure increases to fifteen tons." "The air-weight-to-structure-weight ratio is now thirty-three to one." "When we get to a geodesic sphere one-half mile in diameter, the weight of the structure itself becomes of relatively negligible magnitude, for the ratio is approximately a thousand to one." "When the Sun shines on an open-frame aluminum geodesic sphere of one-half-mile diameter, the Sun penetrating through the frame and reflected from the aluminum members of the concave far side bounces back into the sphere and gradually heats the interior atmosphere to a mild degree." "When the interior temperature of the sphere rises only one degree Fahrenheit, the weight of the air pushed out of the sphere is greater than the weight of the spherical-frame geodesic structure." "This means that the total weight of the interior air plus the weight of the structure is much less than the surrounding atmosphere." "This means that the total assemblage of the geodesic sphere and its contained air will have to float outwardly, into the sky, being displaced by the heavy atmosphere around it." "When a great bank of mist lies in a valley in the morning and the Sun shines upon it, the Sun heats the air inside the bank of mist." "The heated air expands and therefore pushes some of itself outside the mist bank." "The total assembly of the mist bank weighs less than the atmosphere surrounding it, and the mist bank floats aloft into the sky." "Thus are clouds manufactured." "As geodesic spheres get larger than one-half mile in diameter, they become floatable cloud structures." "If their surfaces were draped with outwardly hung polyethelene curtains to retard the rate at which air would come back in at night, the sphere and its internal atmosphere would continue to be so light as to remain aloft." "Such sky-floating geodesic/tensegrity spheres may be designed to float at preferred altitudes of thousands of feet." "The weight of human beings added to such prefabricated 'Cloud Nines' would be relatively negligible." "Many thousands of passengers could be housed aboard one-mile-diameter and larger cloud structures." "The passengers could come and go from cloud to cloud, or cloud to ground, as the clouds float around the Earth or are anchored to mountaintops." Please see _Critical Path_ by R. Buckminster Fuller, pages 336-7. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Jul 1995 17:59:11 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: GLOBAL ENERGY GRID Comments: To: Nick Pine In-Reply-To: <9507021934.AA01556@nfs.ee.vill.edu>; from "Nick Pine" at Jul 2, 95 3:34 pm Nick Pine writes: > > >If you double the size of the dome, you get 8 times the volume but the surfac e > >area is only multiplied by 4. I think after the size gets to about a half > >mile in diameter the ratio of the weight of the structure compared to the > >weight of contained air is such that it acts like a huge hot air balloon and > >floats. > > That's still pretty big. And it would depend on the internal temp > rise, which would depend on the solar transmission and R-value of the > balloon skin. I wonder if this ever got much detailed... > > >Last I heard _Critical Path_ was available through the Buckminster > >Fuller Institute in Santa Barbara (bfi@aol.com). > > Thanks. I'll send 'em email. Was that where that quote came from that > went something like this (in support of a global energy grid): "We > have studied the growth rates of electricity consumption and population > growth for over 150 countries, and we have found that without exception, > population grows inversely to energy consumption." > > Nick > > .- > The quotes about the Energy Grid came from GENI, the organization that's promoting it. Check out their web pages at http://www.cerf.net/geni/ Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 18:30:26 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: Geodesic toys >In my experience, none of the commercial kits have the octet truss/VE in mind. >I found that they didn't have connectors with 12 spokes. I ended up making my >own out of vinyl tubing. 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter cut into 1 or 1.5 inch >pieces with a hole in the middle cut with a leather punch (that had variable >size dies on a wheel). Put 6 pieces of tubing together using a 3/4" brad. >A little tedious making the first bunch, but after that I never ran out--I >could always make more and/or reuse the old ones. Mostly used wooden dowels. >Again, once the initial expense and cutting were behind me, I never ran out of >parts (or got more dowels or cut some in half). > >An old model builder, > >Joe > Okey........thanks for that. I will try that out. The things I have made take to long to put together and take apart. This will be interesting. It has to be able to do a two frequency vector equilibrium for me to consider it a real success. swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 13:58:00 +0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: RFC822 error: Original tag data was -> aist (Scientific Aist Technical Infocenter of Russia) Comments: Resent-From: aist (Scientific Aist Technical Infocenter of Russia) Comments: Originally-From: aist@glas.apc.org (Scientific Aist Technical Infocenter of Russia) From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer Subject: SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION from RUSSIA /* /(a -. 1:46 pm Jul 3, 1995 aist@glas.apc.org " glas:bionet.users.a */ /* ---------- "SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION from RUSSIA" ---------- */ THE SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL INFORMATION CENTRE OF RUSSIA: Status and Activities The Scientific and Technical Information Centre of Russia (the Russian acronym - VNTIC) is a nation-wide (i.e. federal) information institution responsabile for the maintenance of the complete all-Russia (before 1991 - all-Union) fund for scientific R&D reports (projects) and dissertations (candidate and doctoral). The presentation of the documents to the VNTIC fund is obligatory for all the organizations engaged in state budgeted scientific research and development and is carried out in accordance with the Federal Law of the Russian Federation, adopted by Russian Parlament and published in January 17, 1995. The fund is supported in two forms: human-redable full-text primary documents (reports and dissertations), stored on microfiches; machine-redable (secondary) documents, contaning bibliographic descriptions and abstracts of the primary ducuments and stored in database structure to provide online information search and retrival. Thus, VNTIC is original database geneator. For more 25 year of VNTIC existence there are above 5 million documents tatally accumulated in the fund reflecting state-of the main results of R&D activities undertaken in the former Soviet Union (FSU) and now in Russia and civering all the areas of human knowledge including not only exect, natural and engineering sciences and technology but also social sciences, the humanities, arts, medicine and religion. The uniqueness of the VNTIC fund is twofold: the documents presented in the fund are not being published and circulated i.e. they exist only in two type- or computer-written copies on of which belongs to the author of the source institution and the other goes to VNTIC and since the documents are not available elsewhere including such fomous Russian information institutions like The All-Russia institution for Scientific and Technical Information (VINITI), International Centre for Scientific and Technical Information (ICSTI) and largest regional information centres; the information from the documents becomes available to users with the least possible delay of about 2-3 months as compared to 1-2 years for the same (or even less complete) information to appear in a published form (in journals, book, monographs). The VNTIC fund, therefore, is an integral part of the national scientific and cultural wealth of the Russia and undoubtfully is of the world importance and value. In the long run the information from the fund may save billions of dollars to the world scientific community providing information on the expensive and sometimes harmful tu human health and environment researches (say, in chemistry or nuclear physics) that have already been carried out in the FSU or Russia. The fund and the databases of VNTIC are of great interest not only to specialists but also to generalists - economists, politologists, ecologists or NGOlogists - who are engaged in transformation research concerning Russia and FSU. The fund and databases allow VNTIC to provide users with the following kinds of services: - publishing the abstract journals on 28 series; - partial database dessemination in machine-readable from on different subject areas; - online and delay search database access; - translating the abstracts of reports and dissertations into English language databases; - publishing the English language abstracted editions on 10 series; - publishing the Russian and English version of the R&D organization directories; - database on CD-ROM with the Russian and English language documents. For more information, call or write: VNTIC, 14, Smolnaya St., Moscow, 125493, Russia tel/fax: +(095)456-8593 E-mail: aist@glas.apc.org fax: +(095)456-7521 aistmain@vntic.msk.su ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 15:44:53 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Seth J. Itzkan" Subject: Gathering July 12 in Cambridge Hello Bucky Friends in the Boston/Cambridge area, On Wednesday afternoon, July 12, please join in a small gathering visit to Bucky's burial site in Mt. Auburn Cemetery in Cambridge Mass. in honor of his 100th birthday. We will pay respects and share personal remembrances. Afterwards all are invited for refreshments and good'ol Bucky story telling, synergistic conversations, and the like, at my apartment in Arlington. Meet at the main gate of Mt. Auburn Cemetery at 5:15 PM. Gathering at my house: 7:30 - 10:00 PM Seth J. Itzkan 47 Thorndike St. Arlington, MA (Thorndike is off of Mass. ave by Alewife and the bike path) 617-646-3887 P.S. Mt. Auburn Cemetary, by the way, if you have never been, is one of the most lovely and unique cemeteries in the country. Many other visionaries/luminaries also rest there (Mary Baker Eddy, Isabella Gardner, Winslow Homer, etc.). Seth J. Itzkan BBN Educational Technologies 150 CambridgePark Drive Cambridge MA 02140 617-873-3163 sitzkan@bbn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:20:41 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stuart Quimby Organization: MHVNet, the Mid Hudson Valley's Internet connection Subject: Re: Geodesic toys Joe Moore wrote: > In my experience, none of the commercial kits have the octet truss/VE in mind. > I found that they didn't have connectors with 12 spokes. I ended up making my > own out of vinyl tubing. 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter cut into 1 or 1.5 inch > pieces with a hole in the middle cut with a leather punch (that had variable > size dies on a wheel). Put 6 pieces of tubing together using a 3/4" brad. > A little tedious making the first bunch, but after that I never ran out--I > could always make more and/or reuse the old ones. Mostly used wooden dowels. > Again, once the initial expense and cutting were behind me, I never ran out of > parts (or got more dowels or cut some in half). > Hey Joe, what about us? We make lots of toys capable of the VE or the OcTet. 1. Tensegritoy (I've built OcTet's with this greater than 20' long) 2. Stik Trix (smaller, cheaper, easier) 3. Roger's Connection (magnetic, expensive, elegant) 4. ZomeTool (most versatile, makes warped Octets and VE's plus upper dimensional versions) 5. OctaBug (single cell paper VE that performs the Jitterbug transformation) You can get a catalog by calling 800-227-2316, or email your snail address to me: Stuart Quimby Design Science Toys stuq@mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:42:03 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic toys In-Reply-To: <3tb4lp$c16@over.mhv.net>; from "Stuart Quimby" at Jul 4, 95 10:20 am Stuart Quimby writes: > > Joe Moore wrote: > > > In my experience, none of the commercial kits have the octet truss/VE in > mind. > > I found that they didn't have connectors with 12 spokes. I ended up making > my > > own out of vinyl tubing. 1/4 or 1/8 inch diameter cut into 1 or 1.5 inch > > pieces with a hole in the middle cut with a leather punch (that had variable > > size dies on a wheel). Put 6 pieces of tubing together using a 3/4" brad. > > A little tedious making the first bunch, but after that I never ran out--I > > could always make more and/or reuse the old ones. Mostly used wooden dowels . > > Again, once the initial expense and cutting were behind me, I never ran out > of > > parts (or got more dowels or cut some in half). > > > > Hey Joe, what about us? We make lots of toys capable of the VE or the OcTet. > > 1. Tensegritoy (I've built OcTet's with this greater than 20' long) > 2. Stik Trix (smaller, cheaper, easier) > 3. Roger's Connection (magnetic, expensive, elegant) > 4. ZomeTool (most versatile, makes warped Octets and VE's plus upper > dimensional versions) > 5. OctaBug (single cell paper VE that performs the Jitterbug transformation) > > You can get a catalog by calling 800-227-2316, or email your snail address to > me: > > Stuart Quimby > Design Science Toys > stuq@mhv.net > .- > Hey Stu, Thanks for the info. I haven't had a opportunity to play with those model-building kits. I glad to see that VE/octet-building kits are now available. Back in the "good 'ol days" we were on our own. Guess I should have read your catalog more closely. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 10:48:30 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters (fwd) Helen W. St. Cyr writes: > From svpal.svpal.org!svpal.org!5889ww Tue Jul 4 09:39:19 1995 > Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 09:40:56 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Helen W. St. Cyr" <5889ww@svpal.org> > Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters (fw d) > To: Joe Moore > cc: 5889ww@svpal.org > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Hi, Joe, > > FYI, > > Have a great 4th, > > Helen St. Cyr > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 16:26:44 -0700 > From: Jim Warren > To: GovAccess@well.com > Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters > > > [Much deleted] > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& > > > Bucky's 1940s Direct Democracy Proposal > > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:07:00 PST > From: "Tom Parker [Consultant]" > > ... From Buckminster Fuller's book NO MORE SECONDHAND GOD (1940). Bucky > said to save democracy (note the date -- Hitler had taken Poland, attacked > Russia) we need to devise "a mechanical means for nation-wide voting daily > and secretly by each adult citizen of Uncle Sam's family." What a thought! > What if we ALL got to vote on ALL the Bills that came through. What a > thought! Who would vote for massive yearly pay increases for Congress? > > In Bucky's day the main "mechanical means" was not the computer -- although > it COULD have been the telephone. And if you want to pursue the telephone > [line] idea you can reach Evan Ravitz at evan@welcomehome.org = the Voting > By Telephone Foundation. > > You know lots of folks who are cyberspace gurus. Do you think that any of > them would be interested in PLANNING how to restore the vote by letting > citizens vote directly -- via Internet connections AND [maybe] the > telephone? ... > > Something like: > > Direct Vote Options > Computer > Telephone > Public Access Points > > Voter Registration > Get your secret code > Use it when you vote > > Implementation > Initial phase = straw voting National/State/Local > Phase I = vote for Congress > Phase II = vote for President > Phase III = Vote on ALL the bills that interest you. > > > [I have *severe* reservations about such direct democracy proposals - > especially concerning complex issues about which the decision-making voters > would likely have little knowledge or understanding, especially of their > ramifications (Exon's "Decency" bill comes to mind). It's also at least as > susceptable to advertising manipulation using the tobacco companies' best, > well-proven techniques as the elected officials are susceptable to > lobbyists. > > On the other hand, here in California, we have the ballot initiative option > - and in spite of all its frailties and abuses, I'd a helluva lot rather > have it than leave decision-making to the entrenched special-interest > representatives that we seem to insist on continuing to re-elect until term > limits de-thrones them. > > What I *would* like to see is perhaps a legislative body that *proposes* > law, but where each law must be approved by majority of the body politic > empowered to vote - i.e., universal referendum by the electorate. > > Please note that I said a majority of those empowered to vote; NOT merely a > majority of those voting in a given election. (Interesting ramifications! > :-) > > --jim] > > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& > > > > > > Mo' as it Is. > > --jim > Jim Warren, GovAccess list-owner/editor (jwarren@well.com) > Advocate & columnist, MicroTimes, Government Technology, BoardWatch, etc. > 345 Swett Rd., Woodside CA 94062; voice/415-851-7075; fax/<# upon request> > > To add or drop GovAccess, email to Majordomo@well.com ('Subject' ignored) > with message: [un]subscribe GovAccess YourEmailAddress (insert your eaddr) > For brief description of GovAccess, send the message: info GovAccess > > Past postings are at ftp.cpsr.org: /cpsr/states/california/govaccess > and by WWW at http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/states/california/govaccess . > Also forwarded to USENET's comp.org.cpsr.talk by CPSR's Al Whaley. > > May be copied & reposted except for any items that explicitly prohibit it. > > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 18:51:17 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Creating a New Civilization (fwd) Harry Ploss writes: > From netcom15.netcom.com!netcom.com!hploss Tue Jul 4 11:43:20 1995 > Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 11:10:54 -0700 (PDT) > From: Harry Ploss > Subject: Creating a New Civilization > To: Flemming Funch > cc: wholeinfo-l-outgoing@netcom.com > In-Reply-To: <199507041716.KAA21039@newciv.org> > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > Creating a New Civilization, Politics of the Third Wave > by Alvin & Heidi Tofler > > An interesting, thin paperback. > > First Wave was the Agricultural Revolution of 8,000 years ago. > Second Wave was the Industrial Revolution > Third Wave is the Information age. > > Majority Rule, replaced land owner rule with the Manufacturing Era. > Now Minority options and freedom is replacing Majority Rule. > De-Massification and individuation is made possible with computers. > > Communication is world wide and crossing borders, everyday. Nationalism > is being replaced with world wide trade. > > Control is being decentralized, in Business and government. The Soviet > Union fell in part because it was based on centralized control, that was > ineffective in adjusting to the changing world. > > The IRAQ Dessert Storm war was between a Second Wave Army and a Third > Wave Army. Old beliefs that you can't win a war with information and via > AIR are now waning. The Soviet Union had a much larger army but it was > organized based Hardware, centralized Control and hence was a Second Wave > Force. > > Information, unlike materials can be shared to create even greater wealth. > > Our 'Second Wave' Accounting and TAX systems value Plant and Inventory, > but not Intangibles like licenses and Ideas. > > There is a conflict going on between the Second Wave forces in Power and > the Emerging forces of the Third Wave. It will affect, Government > Structures, Accounting and Philosophy - and many other things we take for > granted. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > HARRY PLOSS Dallas, Texas hploss@netcom.com > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 02:27:13 -400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael R Swanson Subject: Re: Creating a New Civilization (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199507050155.SAA12245@mail.netcom.com> > > > > Creating a New Civilization, Politics of the Third Wave > > by Alvin & Heidi Tofler > > > > An interesting, thin paperback. > > > > First Wave was the Agricultural Revolution of 8,000 years ago. > > Second Wave was the Industrial Revolution > > Third Wave is the Information age. Perhaps..but despite all of the lofty visions of a high-tech information age it does not necessarily mean a better world. First of all, hardly everyone is going to have access to the information age. It also will mean less jobs as new inovations to cut labor are created. The increasing unemployablitily of large segments of people is a crisis that is going to get worse. How are these people going to participate in this Tofler vision? > > > > Majority Rule, replaced land owner rule with the Manufacturing Era. > > Now Minority options and freedom is replacing Majority Rule. What does this mean? Minorities are replacing majority rule? What exactly does this mean? > > De-Massification and individuation is made possible with computers. > > For those that have computers and actually use the computers to access information - a small fraction of the US population. The mass media still has more influence over people - and will continue to do so - then alternative sources. > > Communication is world wide and crossing borders, everyday. Nationalism > > is being replaced with world wide trade. Nationalism is not dying out. And if anything world wide trade is increasing nationalism due to the poverty it creates in the third world. > > > > Control is being decentralized, in Business and government. The Soviet > > Union fell in part because it was based on centralized control, that was > > ineffective in adjusting to the changing world. That's a very simplified reason for the collapse of the Soviet Union. Soviet Union collapsed because it went bankrupt due to placing more importance on emphasis on military spending than economic investment. More killingry and less livingry. If the Soviet Union collapsed due to centralization does this mean we can expect to see China fall next? Or Sweden? Or centralized international corporations? > > > > The IRAQ Dessert Storm war was between a Second Wave Army and a Third > > Wave Army. Old beliefs that you can't win a war with information and via > > AIR are now waning. The Soviet Union had a much larger army but it was > > organized based Hardware, centralized Control and hence was a Second Wave > > Force. > > Who based their army on the idea that you don't need information nor air power to win a war? In fact the Soviet army had large air forces through their nuclear weapons. I don't know what is meant by organized based hardware. It is true that their army was not organized as well as ours was due to bad command techniques- nor was the technology as high. Also the Iraqi army was not the Soviet Army. They lost their war because they went blind - lack of information - due to our superior air forces knocking out their communications. Call it third wave if you like - the key factor was air power - which could have been done by a second wave army too. > > Information, unlike materials can be shared to create even greater wealth. > > > > Our 'Second Wave' Accounting and TAX systems value Plant and Inventory, > > but not Intangibles like licenses and Ideas. > > > > There is a conflict going on between the Second Wave forces in Power and > > the Emerging forces of the Third Wave. It will affect, Government > > Structures, Accounting and Philosophy - and many other things we take for > > granted. > > What this really means is that their is a conflict in government between liberals and conservatives...Newt Gingrich and his talk of revolution which really means his belief in the Tofler stuff. What role do the Tofler's give to workers in third world nations? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 01:56:38 -0400 Reply-To: AMKALENAK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: AMKALENAK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: BUCKY'S VTOL CAR Does the one you kicked actually operate ? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:21:18 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters (fwd) Regarding direct voting/democracy -- I think a better solution is just to remove a certain power from the gov (like repealing the sixteenth amendment) and work for societal change via other institutions. "Those who give up liberty in order to attain security will soon find that they have neither." Benjamin Franklin. Patrick Alessandra Jr. / x.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX. 77057 USA Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 11:38:10 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Creating a New Civilization Creating a new right and sustainable civilization would, hopefully, be a natural procedure for the cosmic computer -- as long as we humans can freely cooperate! Economics & Freedom: A Civilized World In the spirit of the world working for 100% of humanity (RBF) in an ecologically sustainable way and as rapidly as possible: This text is from an article that was written for conventional economists and has been sent to numerous media outlets. This article was written with the idea that a very specific societal change -- the restoration of economic freedom by no longer requiring people to use money (vis a vi personal taxation) [thus eliminating a certain type of power base] -- would establish the best possibilities for a civilized world. To quote: "All right and sustainable societal change can be brought about by 'moralsuasion' and a good character based economic life." and "If personal taxes are eliminated then people set up a natural, more efficient and more truly profitable barter system which has at its center good character and personal trust." and "This type of civilization evolves locally self-sustaining inter-networked human eco-systems with naturally balanced resource distribution systems -- i.e., the planet naturally works for 100% of humanity...") "Those who give up liberty in order to attain security will soon find that they have neither." Benjamin Franklin. Patrick Alessandra Jr. / x.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX. 77057 USA Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 13:52:07 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SCIENTIFIC HOUSES HUMANLY OCCUPIED ENVIRONMENT-CONTROLLING STRUCTURES "(A) Spherical structures enclose the greatest volume with least surface." "(B) Geodesic spherical structures, which are inherently omnitriangularly framed entirely of great-circle chords, give the strongest structure per weight of materials employed." "(C) Amongst the geodesic great-circle spherical structures, those based on the discontinuous compression, continuous tension-- 'tensegrity'--icosahedra give the most environmental enclosure per pound and volume of material employed." "(D) Every time the linear dimension of a symmetrical structure is doubled (i.e., 1 -> 2) the surface area of the enclosure increases at a two to the second-power rate (i.e., 2^2), while the environment-controlling structure's volume increases at a two to the third-power rate (i.e., 2^3)." "Wherefore, every time a geodesic dome's diameter is doubled, it has eight times as many contained molecules of atmosphere but only four times as much enclosing shell-- ergo, each progressive doubling of dome diameters halves the amount of enclosing surface through which each molecule of interior atmosphere may either gain or lose energy as heat." "(See 'Old Man River's City' project, pp. 315-23.)" "Whole cities are most efficiently enclosed under one large dome." "(E) Every time we enclose a geodesic dome within a greater-diametered geodesic dome whose radially concentric interspacing is greater than the depth of the frost penetration of that area, while at the same time avoiding use of any metal interconnections between the inner and outer domes' structuring, the heat losses and gains of the innermost domes are halved in respect to those of non-domed-over domes of the same dimensions." "(F) If in producing the geodesic domes-within-domes we make them transparent or translucent on their sunny side and opaque and inwardly reflecting on the nonsunny side, they will entrap progressively greater amounts of Sun energy as heat for longer and greater periods of time as the diameters are increased." "(G) If growing vegetation-- i.e., trees, vegetables, corn, sugar, ground cover, etc.-- is planted within the dome, the photosynthetic conversion of Sun radiation into hydrocarbon molecules will chemically and simultaneously" "(1) convert the monoxide gases given off by human occupants into human-supporting (air) atmosphere, thus eliminating all necessity for windows or air conditioning apparatus, and" "(2) harvest hydrocarbon molecule-trapped energy as food or as fuel-alcohol energy." "(H) If the wind drag of buildings is employed to turbine-convert windpower into tank-stored compressed air, the latter may be stored within the space between the inner and outer domes' skins as low-pressure atmosphere in quantities adequate to pneumatically and evenly distribute any concentrated outer cover loadings throughout all the tensional components of the geodesic-tensegrity structures." "(I) As the Sun's radiation is outwardly and diffusingly reflected by the dome structure's convex outer surface, vertical thermal-column movements of the Sun-heated outside atmosphere develop, which spirally rising columns of heated atmosphere will draw air out from under the dome's large lower-edge summertime openings, which voluminous outward drafting in turn pulls air into the dome through the small cross-sectioned ventilators at the dome's apex." "This pressure differential between the small air entry and large exhaust openings produces the Bernoulli chilling effect, which in hot weather will swiftly cool the dome's interior atmosphere." "World Game has proven this in geodesic domes at the African equator." "(J) It is clearly demonstrable that the conversion of windpower by dome-within-dome drag-operated air turbines will power the compressing and tank storage of air and will thus produce ample power to operate a pneumatic-tool system for all mechanical operating needs within the dome." "Pneumatic tools avoid the human-electrocution perils of electrically operated domestic technology." "(K) Sum-totally it is now demonstrable that properly designed domes within domes become energy-harvesting machines that provide more energy than is needed for the high-standard life support of their human occupants, wherefore such dwelling machines may become exporters of energy in variously stored and controlled forms, such as alcohol." "(L) It has been satisfactorily demonstrated that the reflective, concave inner surface of the geodesic, dome-within-dome, environment-controlling shells will act as parabolic, Sun-radiation concentrators, focusing the Sun radiation income into heating of a circularly arced, liquid-containing pipe, whereby the Sun's heat may be stored liquidly in vacuum-enclosed subterranean tanks for subsequent use in a variety of ways." "The by-product heat from the air compressing is used to heat water stored in the same reservoir." "(M) World Game's design science treats the tensegrity-structured, dome-within-dome geodesic environment controls as comprehensive energh-harvesting, -storing, and -exchanging devices." "Typically, the vegetation most efficiently employed includes the growth of corn and the 'winged bean' in the sunlight area and mushrooms in the hot, dark areas." "(N) Radiotelephones and income-energy generators render the dwelling machine semiautonomous." "(O) Two sanitary devices as described earlier render the environment controls independent of water-supply lines and sewage-carry-away systems:" "(1) the fog gun for cleaning the human skin and all other surfaces with a high-pressure air gun into whose airstream small amounts of atomized water are fed;" "(2) the carton packaging and mechanized, convey-away system of human wastes to be delivered to elsewhere-located fertilizer or gas-generating works or to anaerobic methane gas and dry fertilizer-generating equipment of the dwelling machines themselves." "These two devices eliminate all wet plumbing, which has been responsible for breeding most of all the infectious bacteria heretofore entering human abodes, while also eliminating the infectious splashback feature of water-filled bowls and their water-flushed toilets." Please see _Critical Path_ by R. Buckminster Fuller, pages 209-12. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 16:21:43 -0400 Reply-To: "D. B. Wolf" Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: SENDER field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: "D. B. Wolf" Subject: Re: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199507041751.KAA06955@mail.netcom.com> The implications of a universal and direct vote are very intriging indeed. Fuller was quite perceptive on this point it seems. I believe that steps in this general direction are already being made. I seem to recall that a county in Southern California (Orange County?) has re-worked its processing of municipal affairs such that they are completely computer accessible by the general public. If anyone has any information regarding this system and set up I would be VERY interested in finding out more about it. I'm rather involved in setting up something similar here in Ontario, though it is for a specific community rather than municipal government. Still it is tremendously exciting! I do have one major concern about the prospect of voting on everything however. I would rather look at such a system as a way of providing input on decisions rather than setting votes for all but the most clearly defined questions. I think that consultation and dialogue are the keys to good decisions, and a system which reduces questions to simple yes/no responses which can be issued instantly may well interfer with this process. This and the fact that few of us, unless we happen to be in the business of following all political trends, proposed legislation and effected actors, are really in the best of positions of saying what is the best direction to take on a given subject. A certain degree of awareness is critical to an effective vote. Any system of electronic response must give some room for appropriate reflection and information digestion. Just a few thoughts, Dan Wolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ D. B. Wolf, E-mail-1: Environmental Analyst E-mail-2: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 4 Jul 1995, Joe Moore wrote: > Helen W. St. Cyr writes: > > From svpal.svpal.org!svpal.org!5889ww Tue Jul 4 09:39:19 1995 > > Date: Tue, 4 Jul 1995 09:40:56 -0700 (PDT) > > From: "Helen W. St. Cyr" <5889ww@svpal.org> > > Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters ( fw > d) > > To: Joe Moore > > cc: 5889ww@svpal.org > > Message-ID: > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > > > > Hi, Joe, > > > > FYI, > > > > Have a great 4th, > > > > Helen St. Cyr > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > Date: Mon, 3 Jul 1995 16:26:44 -0700 > > From: Jim Warren > > To: GovAccess@well.com > > Subject: GovAccess.152: Congress, state, local, political contacts; voters > > > > > > [Much deleted] > > > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& > > > > > > Bucky's 1940s Direct Democracy Proposal > > > > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 21:07:00 PST > > From: "Tom Parker [Consultant]" > > > > ... From Buckminster Fuller's book NO MORE SECONDHAND GOD (1940). Bucky > > said to save democracy (note the date -- Hitler had taken Poland, attacked > > Russia) we need to devise "a mechanical means for nation-wide voting daily > > and secretly by each adult citizen of Uncle Sam's family." What a thought! > > What if we ALL got to vote on ALL the Bills that came through. What a > > thought! Who would vote for massive yearly pay increases for Congress? > > > > In Bucky's day the main "mechanical means" was not the computer -- although > > it COULD have been the telephone. And if you want to pursue the telephone > > [line] idea you can reach Evan Ravitz at evan@welcomehome.org = the Voting > > By Telephone Foundation. > > > > You know lots of folks who are cyberspace gurus. Do you think that any of > > them would be interested in PLANNING how to restore the vote by letting > > citizens vote directly -- via Internet connections AND [maybe] the > > telephone? ... > > > > Something like: > > > > Direct Vote Options > > Computer > > Telephone > > Public Access Points > > > > Voter Registration > > Get your secret code > > Use it when you vote > > > > Implementation > > Initial phase = straw voting National/State/Local > > Phase I = vote for Congress > > Phase II = vote for President > > Phase III = Vote on ALL the bills that interest you. > > > > > > [I have *severe* reservations about such direct democracy proposals - > > especially concerning complex issues about which the decision-making voters > > would likely have little knowledge or understanding, especially of their > > ramifications (Exon's "Decency" bill comes to mind). It's also at least as > > susceptable to advertising manipulation using the tobacco companies' best, > > well-proven techniques as the elected officials are susceptable to > > lobbyists. > > > > On the other hand, here in California, we have the ballot initiative option > > - and in spite of all its frailties and abuses, I'd a helluva lot rather > > have it than leave decision-making to the entrenched special-interest > > representatives that we seem to insist on continuing to re-elect until term > > limits de-thrones them. > > > > What I *would* like to see is perhaps a legislative body that *proposes* > > law, but where each law must be approved by majority of the body politic > > empowered to vote - i.e., universal referendum by the electorate. > > > > Please note that I said a majority of those empowered to vote; NOT merely a > > majority of those voting in a given election. (Interesting ramifications! > > :-) > > > > --jim] > > > > > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& > > > > > > > > > > > > Mo' as it Is. > > > > --jim > > Jim Warren, GovAccess list-owner/editor (jwarren@well.com) > > Advocate & columnist, MicroTimes, Government Technology, BoardWatch, etc. > > 345 Swett Rd., Woodside CA 94062; voice/415-851-7075; fax/<# upon request> > > > > To add or drop GovAccess, email to Majordomo@well.com ('Subject' ignored) > > with message: [un]subscribe GovAccess YourEmailAddress (insert your eaddr) > > For brief description of GovAccess, send the message: info GovAccess > > > > Past postings are at ftp.cpsr.org: /cpsr/states/california/govaccess > > and by WWW at http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/states/california/govaccess . > > Also forwarded to USENET's comp.org.cpsr.talk by CPSR's Al Whaley. > > > > May be copied & reposted except for any items that explicitly prohibit it. > > > > .- > > > > > -- > > JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 > 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 > CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 20:32:11 -0400 Reply-To: Shrsharkey Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Shrsharkey Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Geodesic Dome help needed have you contacted Buckminster Fuller Institute at bfi@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 21:08:06 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic Dome help needed Comments: To: shrsharkey@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3thvab$bbo@newsbf02.news.aol.com>; from "Shrsharkey" at Jul 6, 95 8:32 pm Shrsharkey writes: > > have you contacted Buckminster Fuller Institute at bfi@aol.com > .- > ??? What info are you seeking? -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 03:02:16 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bryan Paulk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | NetControl Sales 904-226-2260 Operations Center 904-226-2391 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 18:35:19 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: MARINE CORPS STUDY CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS "A. CONCLUSIONS" "1. It is concluded that the Geodesic Dome principle of shelter design developed for specific application to the requirements of Marine Aviation can provide a single family of shelters that:" "a. Provides functional suitability superior to any shelters with comparable weight-to-enclosed-space ratios." "b. Offers over-all durability exceeding that of any known type of shelter suited to the mobility requirements of Marine Aviation." "c. Introduces a simplicity never before attained for a family of portable shelters suited to the complex functions of a modern military air force." "d. Exceeds the transportability of any family of shelters and in addition provides the extremely practical innovation of transportability in the completely erected state." "e. Advances constructability beyond any discovered to date in a tested version of military shelter design." "f. Submits in this design a produceability that is not involved and whose requirements for special jigs and tooling to produce large quantities are relatively insignificant. Materials proposed for the present design have production capacities in excess of demand." "g. Offers _phenomenal_ savings in weight, packaged volume, cost and man-hour erection time." "2. It is also concluded that there exists today a tested version of a military Geodesic Dome of proven design which has been evaluated against 89 percent of Marine Aviation shelter needs and found far superior to presently used shelters. One other model now under procurement so similar to the tested model that its suitability seems assured will satisfy 10 more percent of the shelter needs of aviation totaling over 99 percent. However, because of definitely greater potentialities possible from this design principle with further development, it is acknowledged that present designs now in hand are 'interim models' only." "3. That further research and development on the military application of the Geodesic Dome principle is essential and must be continued." "4. That adoption of the Geodesic Dome type of shelters will greatly increase the mobility and flexibility of Marine Aviation and provide a type of shelter which allows high immediate and sustained operational efficiency." "5. Use of this type shelter at Fleet Marine Force continental bases for all functions except personnel quarters will afford continual training in all occupational specialities in advanced base types of shelters, greatly improving operational efficiency when deployed." "B. RECOMMENDATIONS" "1. That general purpose Geodesic Dome type shelters be adopted by Marine Aviation to replace all tents now authorized in current allowances." "2. That for purposes of economy the domes be phased into the Aircraft, Fleet Marine Forces as replacements for tents which have become unserviceable due to age or deterioration." "3. That the 55 foot Geodesic Dome aircraft shelters be provided the Aircraft, Fleet Marine Forces immediately to fill a requirement for which there is no available substitute." "4. That a continuing research and development project be established concurrently with the testing and evaluation of prototype models in order to expedite delivery of first production type Geodesic Domes and to extract maximum benefit from this construction principle in its application to military shelters." Please see _Final Report: A Study of Shelter Logistics for Marine Corps Aviation_ (1954) by Colonel Henry C. Lane, U.S. Marine Corps, pages 113-14. For copies of the complete report please contact either: the Buckminster Fuller Institute at bfi@aol.com or Kiyoshi Kuromiya at kiyoshi@critpath.org -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 19:33:59 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Vincent J. Matsko" Organization: Sponsored account, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Subject: G.E.N.I. CONFERENCE I am wondering if anyone would be interested in putting me up if and when I attend the upcoming Fuller conference in San Diego. I will have some interesting toys with me, and would gladly give an autographed copy of the second printing of my book (A TAXONOMY OF FUNDAMENTAL POLYHEDRA AND TESSELLATIONS). I will be driving out and I know my way around the area. Reply to wink@southwind.net please. Thanks, Wink (Geometers might want to take a look at the shape on my home page) http://www.southwind.net/~wink/ There's lots more where that came from! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Jul 1995 09:19:54 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FOG GUN FULLER'S FOG GUN (Pictures) "88-91" "Fuller considered the Dymaxion bathroom as an interim, mass-producible, sanitary facility; his fog gun, pictured here, afforded a new method of bathing." "It combined compressed air and atomized water with triggered-in solvents." "The kinetic force of the high-pressure air stream was utilized without the skin-damaging effect unavoidable in high-pressure needle-pointing of water streams." "Generalizing from his Navy experience, in which engine room greases on the skin were almost unnoticeably removed by wind and fog on deck, Fuller reasoned--and later demonstrated-- that the feeding of atomized water and air at high pressure on to the skin surface would accelerate the surface oxidation, and release the surface cells themselves, along with the attached dirt." "The round pictures show magnifications of the skin surface." "Two of the pictures show the dirt interspersing the 'coral reeflike' structure of the pores. (1927-1948)" (Picture) "92" "Research students at the Institute of Design, Chicago, in 1948 testing the Fog Gun." "(Subsequent experiments were conducted at Yale and other universities.)" "A one-hour massaging pressure bath used only a pint of water." "If fog gun bathing were done in front of a heat lamp, all the sanitary and muscle-relaxing effects of other types of bathing could be effected without the use of any bathroom." "Since there were no run-off waters, tons of plumbing and enclosing walls could be eliminated, and bathing would become as much an 'in-the-bedroom' process as dressing." "Fuller holds that the other functions of the bathroom may be effected by odorless, dry-packaging machinery, employing modern plastics, electronic sealing, and dry-conveying systems." Please see: _The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller_ by R.Buckminster Fuller and Robert Marks (1973) pages 99-100. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 18:52:00 +0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dagan Packman Subject: 2 Questions I have 2 questions... 1. I have read some information regarding Fuller in a book by Robert Anton Wilson (non-fiction). Wilson stated that Fuller had calculated the 'rate of increase in the quantity of available information'. Wilson said, Fuller had noticed that the amount of information available had doubled between the years 4000 B.C. and 0. Information doubled again between 0 and 1500. The doubling of information continues to occur in less time. Wilson went on to say that Fuller had found that information was now (1992 - the year the Wilson book was published) doubling every 3 months. Most importantly (and here lies my question), information would double every nanosecond in the year 2012. My questions regarding this: What would occur when information began to double every nanosecond? Or at the equivalent of the speed of light? Also about this subject... I have not seen it discussed in any of Fullers books. Does anyone know where this information originally came from? (Wilson had met Fuller) 2. Although at times Fullers work is quite difficult to read (Myself not having any scientific education) it is still quite apparent that his ideas and designs would actually work. Personally I have very little e for humans, but if after reading some of what Fuller had written, I see there is (was?) a solution. My question... Why is nothing being acomplished with Fuller's work? Too few domes are built, the cost (currently) I would assume is far beyond the possible cost. Politics, it seems to me is a problem, but still, after so many years, practically nothing is being done in any government which is associated with Fullers ideas. WHY? Thats all... Dagan Packman packman@glas.apc.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:17:04 -0700 Reply-To: ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Denis F. Blue" Subject: fly's eye shades "The cylindrically rimmed circular openings (of the Fly's Eye Dome) will be tensilely covered with opaque, translucent, or transparent glass, plastic film, metal glazing or screening, or some combination thereof." From: Critical Path by R.Buckminster Fuller ................................. I know it's a bit early- what? 40 years? - to be suggesting design details on the Fly's Eye Dome. OK: AFTER we save the world , AND THEN mass-produce and air-deliver the Fly's Eye Dome, THEN I think it might be a good idea to try the following idea. Because the windows of the Fly's Eye Dome are circular it struck me that a unique advantage of a circle is its ability to be spun . Then it occurred that this would be an advantage if one was to mount two sheets of polarized transparent glass into each of the circular openings for the windows on the Fly's Eye Dome. By doing this residents would be able to exactly control the level of light coming through a window. They would tune in a desired level of illumination through a window by simply rotating one of the two polarized sheets of glass in the circular window frame of the FE dome. (For those not familiar with polarizing lenses, you can view this trick by taking two lenses from polarized sunglasses , placing one lens in front of another and rotating one of them. In some orientations you can block out all light to your eye , in other orientations nearly all the light comes through.) Just a quick speculation for the Future File... Denis Blue P.S. The spelling of "polarized" is the Canadian spelling... -- ### ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:27:52 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: 2 Questions You ask: "Politics, it seems to me is a problem, but still, after so many years, practically nothing is being done in any government which is associated with Fullers ideas. WHY?" According to my (neophyte - but learning) understanding of Bucky's writings most industrially developed nations - governments and the financiers which influence them are not motivated to bring about sustainable eco-solutions -- but only to retain their own power -- which is why their power should be strictly limited and solutions sought through the other institutions of society. To rephrase some e-list posts: "... its only in economic freedom (which we do not have at present) that people evolve natural environment-friendly self-sustaining eco-economic systems." In the spirit of the world working for 100% of humanity (see the writings of R. Buckminster Fuller) in a sustainable way and as rapidly as possible: (This text is from an article that was written for conventional economists and has been sent to numerous media outlets and various e- lists. This article was written with the idea that a very specific societal change -- the restoration of economic freedom by no longer requiring people to use money (by eliminating personal taxation in the U.S.A.) [thus eliminating a certain type of power base] -- would establish the best possibilities for a civilized world. To quote: "All right and sustainable societal change can be brought about by 'moralsuasion' and a good character based economic life." and "If personal taxes are eliminated then people set up a natural, more efficient and more truly profitable barter system which has at its center good character and personal trust." and "This type of civilization evolves locally self-sustaining inter-networked human eco-systems with naturally balanced resource distribution systems -- i.e., the planet naturally works for 100% of humanity...") Ecology and economics -- the two can be one, in a healthy economy there is zero negative environmental impact -- its all positive as human beings are a freely working part of nature. [... on the proper role of government: as government is the only human institution which is vested with coercive power then its only legitimate role is to prevent coercion among people (like stopping criminals), i.e., to guarantee freedom and unalienable rights (as in deterring dictators). Government coercion/manipulation in any area of society always (at best) slows down natural healthy societal evolution and (at worst) stifles this evolution (leading to the people making significant adjustments in the government as the evolutionary lesson that society inevitable learns is that only freedom is sustainable). The use of government coercion to manipulate societal flow never works for the best possibilities. All right and sustainable societal change can be brought about by "moralsuasion" and a good character based economic life.]. ... a very simple plan of action, and it works: its called (in the U.S.A.) repealing the sixteenth amendment, having only even tariffs (if any), revitalizing the ninth and tenth amendments and then natural societal evolution will lead to a sustainable environmental friendly society. For evidence on the true good nature of most people (which would override the other in a barter economy) see "The Federalist Papers", DeTocquville's "Democracy in America" and the American Psychologist 1982 article called "Psychology Utopia and the Commons." For other info/evidence see the book "Critical Path" by R.B. Fuller and the book about the history of taxation called "For Good and Evil" by Adams (cspan did a booknotes on it). ....some simple freedoms would bring about the natural evolution of solutions, given how things are today. ... people will be able to feed themselves if they have economic freeedom and unalienable rights are protected (and this should be the U.N.'s goal -- not capital/resource re- distribution). "Those who give up liberty in order to attain security will soon find that they have neither." Benjamin Franklin. Patrick Alessandra Jr. / _.Priori / 6524 San Felipe #323 / Houston, TX. 77057 USA Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:29:08 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Re: 2 Questions Dagan, you ask interesting questions. Let me address the second one, where you ask why Fuller's ideas have not been more widely implemented. This is my opinion only. . . Fuller *began* his career by offering two radically more efficient design solutions for basic human needs, the Dymaxion Car and House. We can quibble over how practical these solutions actually were as prototypes, but I think everybody will agree that these solutions are far more efficient in terms of materials and energy use than the transport and housing solutions offered to us in the marketplace. Had the prototypes been properly funded and developed they would have changed the world. The problem is that creating such vast efficiencies in these two huge industries, auto and housing, would create structural changes in the economy like nobody's every seen before. It would create economic change on a biblical scale. Fuller said again and again that we could make mankind a success -- that there was *enough* for everybody on the planet when we can do more with less. Unfortunately the world-dominant economies are constructed on a Malthusian scarcity model where people must compete for scarce resources. Without sounding like a paranoiac, I believe those who have won this Malthusian game are intent on keeping it that way -- and nobody knows what an abundance economy would look like or how it would work. My $.02 for this afternoon. Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:46:42 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: 2 Questions >Wilson said, Fuller had noticed that the amount of information >available had doubled between the years 4000 B.C. and 0. Reasonable >Information doubled again between 0 and 1500. I'll buy that too. >The doubling of information continues to occur in less time. It depends on what you want to call "information". If we eliminate redundant copies and variations, the actual "new" information is less than the total. For a good example, look at the size of a typical UseNet newsfeed. The total number of postings and bytes has gone up and up, but cross-posting and replies that quote the entire "first" posting are also on the rise. The actual increase in useable information has not gone up too much in most groups, we just have a larger number of people writing "letters to the editor", when there IS no "editor". (Killer metaphor, huh?) >Wilson went on to say that Fuller had found that information >was now (1992 - the year the Wilson book was published) >doubling every 3 months. The total number of BYTES (text or data) may have increased, but this is all NOT "information". >Most importantly (and here lies my question), information >would double every nanosecond in the year 2012. Naw, that is a trend-line extrapolation. There are limits! Don't let your model run amok!!! Using the same approach, I could say that my sourdough bread mix should apply for UN membership, since it will someday increase in size to a point where it will be larger than the entire USA. "Information" has a very poor definition. Shannon and friends would define ANYTHING at all as information, as long as it can be transmitted. If we use the term "useful facts" rather than "information", we have a better handle on the subject. This paragraph might be called "information". (Given that I wrote it, you may wish to argue this point!!) If you e-mail it to a friend, you have created a copy on his disc. The total amount of "information" has therefore "doubled", but since it is a mere copy, the 2nd copy cannot be a reason for saying that we have increased "the available pool of information" at all. Nowdays, we have a 20th century cargo cult that worships at the altar of "information". The problem with this sort of mindless infatuation with all things digital is most of them make exactly the same error - they assume that all "information" has value. This is not true. The first copy has value. The 2nd has less value than the first, since if the first were available to all, copies would not be required. When people talk about a "waste of bandwidth", they are getting the idea. >My question... Why is nothing being acomplished with Fuller's >work? Quite a few things HAVE been accomplished, small though they might be. Don't expect any sort of sudden change, where people suddenly "get it". A few thousand years ago, a man was nailed to a tree for daring to suggest that people should be nice to each other. Things have changed little since then... The earth is populated by Scientists, who practice the art of infallibility, and Non-Scientists, who are taken in by it. James Fischer jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 12:08:08 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FLOATING BREAKWATER FULLER'S FLOATING BREAKWATERS "There are many, many islands around the world that would be happily inhabited had they harbors." "It is a question of whether the direction of the wind means that boats left at moorings on what would be the lee side of the island may, a few hours later, be on the windward side." "Breakwaters consisting of rock or masonry cost vast amounts of money." "I began to realize that the inertia of water itself, if trapped, could serve as a breakwater." "In the last few decades, large rubber tubes ten or twenty feet in diameter have been filled with water, and have served very effectively as dams in rivers." "I saw that there was a possibility that the mass inertia of trapped-water dams would lift with the approaching waves, and that the elevated water could be made to flow 90 degrees to serve as a propellant of the water's motion to generate power." "So I undertook to produce such floating breakwaters and found that they work successfully." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "My first floating breakwaters were very severe on the materials used, especially if they were pressured, so my second patent was designed to reduce those pressures without, in any way, losing the principle of waterpower generation, as well as the interference with the onshore wind and waves protection." "This second system employs the inherent strength of inter-hinged boom triangles and also employs the distributed lifting strains of the enormous masses of water which are progressively elevated." "The elevated water is then directed at right angles to the waves to pass through turbines, thus generating power." Please see _Inventions_ by R. Buckminster Fuller (1983) pages 269 and 281, or U.S. Patent # 3,863,455, "Floatable Breakwater" (1975) and U.S. Patent # 4,136,994, "Floating Breakwater" (1979). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:26:42 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Paul R. Kosuth" Subject: Re: 2 Questions In-Reply-To: <01HSPDQMAV1Y9GZGB8@delphi.com> concerning the two questions---- specifically, why have Fullers ideas not been more greatly implemented. My two cents, go back to what Fuller discussed about a "lag" time between inception/prototype and the completions or the full implementation of the solution. I think that he said that there was a 25 or 40 year lag time ( my notes are at home so can't put my finger o the info) -- even with this lag time, I agree that we are still decades away from any real use of the ideas. As a math and sci teacher, I try to instill the ideas and experiences of Fullers views and geometry when possible . This spring we built a large icosa greenhouse, hopefully this fall we will build a 2 freq outdoor workspace. These things have an impact-- but it takes time Paul Kosuth prkosuth@prairienet.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 17:09:40 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SUBMARISLE FULLER'S UNDERSEA ISLANDS "Ocean wave turbulence does not penetrate deeply below the surface." "Fourteen or twenty feet below the surface there is no turbulence." "Because humanity is developing more and more submarines for more and more military purposes, I could see that the law of shipbuilding advantage applied: every time you double the length of a ship you increase its volume and therefore its payload eight times while increasing its surface only four times." "Every time you double the length of a ship, your payload-to-surface advantage doubles, therefore you have less surface to build and drive through the water." "So giant submarines will become very effective around the world as transports operating entirely below any turbulence." "I found humanity tending to venture on the sea more and more and felt it would be a very great advantage to build submarisles with lighthouses sticking up above the water and landing docks when there is not too much turbulence but making it possible for the submarines to dock below the surface." "I could see that we needed to have islands such as the submarisle all around the world to make possible the changing of cargoes at various points." Please see _Inventions_ by R.Buckminster Fuller (1983) pages 194-5 or U.S. Patent # 3,080,583 "Submarisle" (1963). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 17:21:51 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: 2 Questions In-Reply-To: ; from "Paul R. Kosuth" at Jul 10, 95 2:26 pm Paul R. Kosuth writes: > > concerning the two questions---- specifically, why have Fullers ideas not > been more greatly implemented. My two cents, go back to what Fuller > discussed about a "lag" time between inception/prototype and the > completions or the full implementation of the solution. I think that he > said that there was a 25 or 40 year lag time ( my notes are at home so > can't put my finger o the info) -- even with this lag time, I agree that > we are still decades away from any real use of the ideas. As a math and > sci teacher, I try to instill the ideas and experiences of Fullers views > and geometry when possible . This spring we built a large icosa > greenhouse, hopefully this fall we will build a 2 freq outdoor workspace. > These things have an impact-- but it takes time > > Paul Kosuth > prkosuth@prairienet.org > .- > Paul, Could you post pictures of your past and/or future dome projects? Or maybe a set of how-to instructions? Or maybe what you learned from the project? I think one of the reasons that Bucky's ideas haven't caught on is the lack of global media exposure; most people just have never heard of his ideas. But I think the Internet will change all that very quickly. I think we will see a lot of his ideas implemented in the next 5 years. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 17:17:21 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: New Book: Nature's Numbers Several people have inquired about my self-published book: Nature's Numbers. It is 104 pages soft bound. 8.5 x 11 inches. It is not an attempt to explain Fuller's mathematics. It is an extention of Fuller's geometry to numbers. Fuller notes that the words "sunset" and "up" are anachronistic, and I try to show that out current Hindu-Arabic "base" ten number system is also anachonistic. It was developed before widespread knowledge of gravity, round-earth, and clocks. Its a very primitive system. The back of the book says: What will numbers of the future look like? Does a ten-grouping system blind us to certain aspects of nature? What is the best number grouping ("base") for an economy? Is the "five-per-hand" model the only workable anatomical model for counting? I have taught these "numbers of the future" now to over 2600 students here in the Los Angeles area. We are currently making a video of my lecture to be shown here in LA on public access cable. The video, "Numbers of the Future", is also available. Cost of the book is total 24.00 plus shipping: 26.75 for california residents 28.73 outside USA 31.75 Cost of the video is the same. If you want to order both 40.00 plus shipping 44.00 california 47.63 outside USA 49.00 If lots of people order I'll be able to reduce the price. If you are interested send check to: Bill Lauritzen 809-D East Garfield Glendale, CA 91205 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 07:44:17 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: ECOC ECOC Organization: The Dorsai Embassy - New York Subject: Hard to heat, cool, leaks like siv After reading a number of books on the subject of geodesic domes, I am under the impression that its use has completely fallen out of favor. It is my impression that geodesic domes are very hard to heat, very hard to cool and that they tend to leak. They were an idea of the 60's that simply failed to live up to the expectation. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 18:23:00 +0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dagan Packman Subject: 2 Questions - Revisited Here I ramble on based on some responses to my questions. Excuse me. The amount of time that has passed since Fuller's works originated is disproportinate to the effect those works have had on society. Taking into consideration the time factor, the structural changes to the economy would not have been shocks to the system. To expect Fuller's works to have been implemented shortly after discovery is an error, based not only on Fuller's own words that there is a time lag between the original developement of an idea and the ideas practical use, but also due to the fact that the industries which Fuller targeted are strongly resistant to change. Change is expensive. But again such time has passed that it is correct to expect the industries and society in general to currently be moving in the direction of a human/world-centric style of living. When I look at society, I see not an inkling of Fullers ideas. I still have no answer to my question, WHY?. The press could be to blame, but Fuller has been written up numerous times. Politics and Industry are at fault, certainly. But the real blame falls on the heads of the people. The majority of the people don't care enough, or don't think for themselves. Until the people begin to think and care, you won't see a change in course away from destruction. How quickly are people changing? Either quick enough or not, believe what you like. Society is a product of itself. We teach each other how to live every day. Most importantly we teach our children how to live. As Fuller has explained, society wastes energy teaching in schools at the wrong age levels. Age 1 to 8 are the most formative years, yet colleges are thought to be the most important institution for the youth. At the public grade school level, a student will never hear a teacher refer to Fuller in the context of the curriculum. The same is true of college unless the student takes specific engineering or mathematical courses. It's been almost sixty years since the creation of the dymaxion car, yet I bet most students in automotive engineering haven't heard of it. About 10 years ago, someone told me an interesting metaphor. If there were 500 apples on the planet, and they could be divided equally among the planets population, then if one person took twice their portion, that would leave less for every other person. This is obviously based on Malthus, and as Fuller has proven, is not accurate. Contrary to Fuller, there is no place on earth where this 500 apple metaphor doesn't hold true. Regarding 'Information' As I posted earlier, I had asked about the increase in the rate of the increase in information. jfisher brought up a very good point. What is information? Well, this has no definitive answer I believe. Information is NOT material. In the case of Fuller's views on information increase, and although I haven't read his exact words, I thought of the amount of information present as the sum of all knowledge. If this is what he was refering to than whether repetative or even direct copies exist is irrelevant because they wouldn't have an effect on the sum of all knowledge. Now to quote: >ME> Wilson wrote that Fuller said: information would double every >ME> nanosecond in the year 2012. >jfishcer> ... that is a trend-line extrapolation. There are limits! ... >jfischer> Using the same approach ... my sourdough breadmix ... will >jfischer> someday increase in size to the point where it will be larger >jfischer> than the entire USA. I disagree here. Let me explain. There are no limits, if the opposite were true infinity wouldn't exist. In my statement, information is non- physical and the rate of its increase is nearly impossible to change. How can anything alter something that is global and non-physical? If your sourdough breadmix was un-alterable and constant (non-detractive, as is the amount of information) then it would someday be larger than the USA. When I refer to information in my statements, I refer to the total sum of all knowledge. I am not sure if this is what Fuller was refering to but that is what I assume. I would like to hear from someone as to where in any of Fullers books he discusses this increase in information. Anyone know? Sorry for the rambling length, Dagan Packman packman@glas.apc.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 08:01:18 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: ASPENSION FULLER'S ASPENSION STRUCTURES "I found in the world of tensegrity it was also feasible to produce what I call the aspension dome, a dome that could be progressively assembled on the ground from its maximum-diameter base and continually hoisted aloft." "This is really an alternative to the tensegrity geodesics." "It has an accordian-opening effect such as the foldable Japanese lantern, which can be progressively pulled open to provide space." Please see: 'Inventions' by R. Buckminster Fuller (1983) page 201 and U.S. Patent # 3,139,957 (1964). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 22:35:10 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: help with cosmography question I have been trying to post the following on the synergetics-l to no avail. Can someone help with Cosmography. I am on page 56. Previous to that I have understood Bucky's propellor descriptions and his gyroscope description. Now I am where he is spinning a tetrahedron on different axis, that is one set of three great circles, one set of 6 great circles, and one set of four great circles. The first question which I may have answered myself is how does he come out with ninety-six A modules and forty-eight B modules? I think after looking into Synergetics 1 and 2 that he is just talking about the first layer inside a VE formed by the great circles when the tetrahedron was spun. (refers to pg 55) I am lost however when he talks about the two A modules having a constant in universe (-) whereas the alternative left and right winging of the inherently entropic B modules operate singly, left-handedness producing a negative proclivity, and right-handedness, a positive proclivity. Therefore, LB = (-) * (-) = (+) and RB = (-) * (+) = (-) therefore, LB = (+) and RB = (-) (I ASSUME LB IS FOR LEFTHAND B MODULE. BUT WHY SAY LB EQUALS A NEG TIMES A NEG) There is more to this but I will leave it there to see if someone can help me with this first part. His demonstration is to show that there is twice as much gravity as radiation so I would like to understand this model he is describing. thanks swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 09:10:59 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: 2 Questions - Revisited In-Reply-To: ; from "Dagan Packman" at Jul 11, 95 6:23 pm Fuller measured knowledge growth in terms of the increase in the number of scientific and abstract journals, and by the volume of technical documents. See World Design Science Documents # 4 (page 86) and # 6 (page 56). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 14:54:30 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: 2 Questions - Revisited Hello, I suppose that the general question of why more good ideas (such as Bucky's) are not at least being taught as alternatives in school (i.e., I never saw a course on Synergetics offered at the various colleges I looked at) could be answered (as I do not believe in conspiracy theories) as having to do with a twofold social-evolutionary issue: 1. The inertia of status quo systems (industry and gov't) and their financial intertwinning. 2. The lack of freedom of the majority of people from those systems, and the general inability of people to free themselves from the systems without first having to contribute to them vis a vi the making of money. The rules for the making of money tend to be set in such a manner so as to support no. 1. These two processes result in a viscious circle. When there is economic freedom (which does not exist in the developed nations today primarily because of personal taxation) then the circle ceases to exist and one's security is not related to money but to relationships among people. A natural barter economy then evolves that allows for far greater freedom -- so good ideas can more easily be experimented with, developed and made generally available. "More powerful than all the armies of the world is an idea whose time has come." (who said this?) Patrick Alessandra Jr. a.Priori 6524 San Felipe #323 Houston, TX 77057 USA Compuserve Address: 72203,3461. America OnLine: APRIORIPAA Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 15:25:56 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY'S STRATEGY BUCKY'S STRATEGY "I must avoid setting too short an overall consummation period for my critical path." "It was of prime importance that I adopt a target date so far in the future as to avoid making uneasy any of the power structures of 1927-- which might feel that their interests were threatened by what I was proposing." "It was necessary that I reach so far beyond the power structures' research-determined vision of their most forward development that my concepts would appear to be either a pleasant 'pipe dream' or innocuous nonsense." "I was able to do exactly that." "The most powerful people I knew found me utterly unaccreditable but 'interesting'-- and to some 'fascinating.'" "This induced them to invite me to their parties to entertain their guests with my 'dreaming out loud.'" "For this reason the power structure's press very frequently gave my projects prominent publicity-- because they found my concepts popularly entertaining, they published them ever more frequently and prominently, hoping for advertisements-inducing, increased readership." "In 1930 the author of 'Buck Rogers' told me that he frequently used my concepts for his cartoons." Please see: 'Critical Path' by R.Buckminster Fuller (1981) pages 261-2. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:40:25 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: 2 Questions - Revisited In-Reply-To: from "Dagan Packman" at Jul 11, 95 06:23:00 pm Dagan Packman: > When I look at society, I see not an inkling of Fullers > ideas. I still have no answer to my question, WHY?. The press could be > to blame, but Fuller has been written up numerous times. Politics and > Industry are at fault, certainly. But the real blame falls on the heads > of the people. The majority of the people don't care enough, or don't > think for themselves. Until the people begin to think and care, you > won't see a change in course away from destruction. i think that fuller's ideas have to be applied more subtly than even he himself may have applied them at times. one of the most compelling memes for me in fuller's philosophy is his precession metaphor. fuller anticipated gestatation rates before his work would be accepted, but he also emphasized the importance of the _unanticipatable_. i therefore try to look for subtle ways in which the world may be moving in the right direction, and i see many. one of the most powerful 'unanticipatables' is the computer revolution. fuller didn't live long enough to see the dramatic growth of the net, but if he had, i feel he would have labeled it a fulfillment of his 'education automation' anticipation. the potentials of the net are as yet in infancy. it is, quite simply, too early to tell what kind of dramatic effect sophisticated global communication may have on the progress of society. another unanticipatable, one that still isn't well understood by most people, is the potential of nanotechnology - manufacturing at the atomic scale. nanotechnology is the limiting case of fuller's 'doing more with less', and the potential for it to change the world, for better or for worse (utopia or oblivion) is dramatic indeed. nanotechnology could indeed fulfill fuller's anticipation of tremendous wealth for all - i suspect that the wealth of nanotechnology even surpasses fuller's own anticipation of the large amount of wealth accessible by 'doing more with less'. with the wealth of nanotechnology, the dominance behavior now prevalent on our planet may become irrelevant and obsolete, simply because human labor will no longer be the richest source of power. this idea may itself have dire consequences - it is no less horrific to imagine abandoned portions of humanity than dominated ones. but nanotechnology will make the support of humanity so inexpensive that it would be nearly effortless to allow the technology to work for everyone as opposed to a policy of abandonment. fuller's philosophy differs from most other idealist, utopian philosophies in that it _doesn't_ presuppose that everyone (or a majority) needs to agree with its ideas before any good can be done. the history of politics is full of demonstrations that such single-minded majorities are hard to come by. in place of this 'salvation-by-rhetoric/conversion' fuller offers the techniques of synergetics, whereby _those interested_ (even if they be few) might be able to fully comprehend what is actually going on in the world, both socially and scientifically, and use this knowledge in the creation of artifacts (both technological artifacts and 'memetic artifacts') designed to alter the _environment_ of cultural evolution. when the environment is altered, as all good evolutionists know, the game of evolution changes. some problems become obsolete, and new problems arise. there will never be a shortage of new problems, but synergetics offers methods and ideas to assist in the gradual solution or obsolescence of problems that _threaten global humanity_ - problems that, once done away with, will be replaced by problems that are, in comparison, mundane. these new problems will, no doubt, be debated just as vigorously as the old ones, and may even preclude the label 'utopia' from being appropriate for some (accomodating the idea, that many people insist upon, that utopia is unreachable). if a minor-utopia is defined in a simplistic way as a reasonable level of comfort, then many people live utopian lives today. utopia for all seems unreachable simply because of the expense involved, and the application of a fullerian efficiency might make the expense more reachable. this 'efficiency now' is the fullerian philosophy that is easily seen as not-working-as-expected, which is dismaying, and which seems to indicate that fuller's ideas aren't working and might even have outlasted their usefulness, but i see this philosophy as an offshoot of the central ideas of synergetics, which have a life outside of fuller's intentions for them. even if none of fuller's inventions get applied (at least in any obvious ways), the concepts of synergetics, doing more with less, precession, etc., will still be valuable tools for the analysis of universe and the creation of tools to effect changes in universe. the game is far from over, and far from easy - i tend to doubt there will ever be an obvious 'turning point' after which the correct path will clearly have been taken by the world, with utopia inevitable. it seems to me that both the problems and the solutions will complexify before a design science revolution actually succeeds in 'making the world work for everyone' - and that prior to the time this success becomes (retrospectively) easily apparant, the problems yet extant will perhaps seem still enormous. > Society is a product of itself. We teach each other how to live every > day. Most importantly we teach our children how to live. As Fuller has > explained, society wastes energy teaching in schools at the wrong age > levels. Age 1 to 8 are the most formative years, yet colleges are > thought to be the most important institution for the youth. education is clearly paramount, which is why i have emphasized the internet as a fulfillment of fuller's 'education automation' anticipation. education automation will put learning in the hands of the learners themselves, who are the only ones qualified to filter (inherently subjective) noise from signal, and discover the truths that are as-yet obscured. a self-directed learner will not only be able to get information during the early 'formative years', but will be able to continue learning along their own path indefinately... becoming 'lifelong learners' - retaining the 'formative' ideal even beyond 8 years of age. >>> Wilson wrote that Fuller said: information would double every >>> nanosecond in the year 2012. > james fischer: >> ... that is a trend-line extrapolation. There are limits! ... > > I disagree here. Let me explain. There are no limits, if the opposite > were true infinity wouldn't exist. In my statement, information is non- > physical and the rate of its increase is nearly impossible to change. > How can anything alter something that is global and non-physical? information is non-physical in a sense, but in another sense, it is physical - everything is part of the same, finite universe. there are no infinities, except as conceptual tools. memetic (cultural) evolution requires the medium of the human mind, without which all 'information' is just so much paper (or electron patterns, or whatever). and, of course, there are a finite number of human minds extant at any given moment. fuller has anticipated that global success will stop the global population acceleration, so minds will not necessarily even continue to increase toward infinity in number. the doubling-of-information trend is an _evolutionary_ trend, and as such, it is dependant on environment. this is why the trend cannot necessarily be carried all the way to the doubling-every-nanosecond level - information is filling the available evolutionary niches rapidly, and when they are filled, the growth trend will give way to a memetic competition for the available space. information, however, can also alter the evolutionary environment. minds, especially interfacing with machines like computers, will continue to complexify, expanding the available niches for continued doubling of information. the doubling-every-nanosecond level will perhaps never be reached, but the trend primarily serves as an indicator that the bulk of the information explosion lies _ahead_ of us, which is undoubtedly true, especially in light of the possibilities of nanotechnology and accompanying ultra-fast nanocomputers. the very nature of the mind may alter dramatically such that information-processing 'consciousnesses' will explore and expand 'information space' unimaginably fast. this idea is what the trend anticipates, even if the numbers it seems to insist upon are simplistically provided, with conclusions left to the reader. the only thing that seems almost guaranteed is that the future will be a stranger, busier place than the past. synergetics, as a philosophy that insists on taking nothing for granted, begging no questions, and working with _effectively_ demonstrable logic of utility (as opposed to a rhetoric of fundamental truth/falsehood) seems a most useful tool for progressively comprehending the evolution of universe for the purpose of taking fullest advantage of it for the benefit of all humanity. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 23:22:41 +0000 Reply-To: richard@henderr.demon.co.uk Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Henderson Subject: Buckyballs this appears in the latest edition of Netsurfer Digest: ------------------------------------------------------------------- BUCKYBALL The carbon molecule, not the sport, is covered in pictures and descriptions on a Web site maintained by the Physics Department at SUNY at Stony Brook, N.Y. Buckyballs, or fullerenes (named after Buckminster Fuller), are hollow soccerball-shaped molecules made up of 60 or more carbon atoms. SUNY physicists are performing basic research on the fundamental properties of the molecules, plain and doped with other atoms. Also at this page can be found links to infrared spectroscopy, a MPEG movie of C60, and other fullerene-related pages. ------------------------------------------------------------------- this is the first Bucky reference I've seen in ND, but it's worth subscribing to if you use the Web - saves many hours of tiresome wheat/chaff sifting.. subscription info is available from: http://www.netsurf.com/nsd/index.html regards, Richard *----------http://metro.turnpike.net/G/GoatBoy/index.html----------* Hippies: never trust anyone over 30 Punks: never trust a hippie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 00:07:26 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Doubling of information Dagan wrote: >>> Wilson wrote that Fuller said: information would double every >>> nanosecond in the year 2012. > james fischer: >> ... that is a trend-line extrapolation. There are limits! ... > then Dagan wrote: > I disagree here. Let me explain. There are no limits, if the opposite > were true infinity wouldn't exist. In my statement, information is non- > physical and the rate of its increase is nearly impossible to change. > How can anything alter something that is global and non-physical? then Karl wrote: information is non-physical in a sense, but in another sense, it is physical - everything is part of the same, finite universe. there are no infinities, except as conceptual tools . . . the doubling-every-nanosecond level will perhaps never be reached, but the trend primarily serves as an indicator that the bulk of the information explosion lies _ahead_ of us, which is undoubtedly true, especially in light of the possibilities of nanotechnology and accompanying ultra-fast nanocomputers. the very nature of the mind may alter dramatically such that information-processing 'consciousnesses' will explore and expand 'information space' unimaginably fast. (whew!) then I wrote this: I'm surprised that in this discussion of the information explosion no distinctions have been made between raw data, the information which is distilled from that raw data, and the wisdom which is distilled from the information. When you get 150 channels of video programming and you still can't find anything to watch, you have a much larger amount of data to handle but no more useful information. I'm on the net a lot and I find it's most useful, not as a carrier of new information, but as a very efficient *pointer* to new information. There are exceptions, sure. One of them is this geodesic list. But a lot of the data going through is noisy, diverting, entertaining, bizarre, but not of any real informative value. So I'm not sure that information is doubling at anything like the rates we're talking about, and I'm damn sure that wisdom isn't. But the internet is cause for hope on many fronts, isn't it? If wisdom begins to double every decade then we've got something. :-) By the way, James Fischer, glad you're still with us! Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 13:28:44 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: 2 Questions - Revisited Dagan Packman wrote: >... If there >were 500 apples on the planet, and they could be divided equally among >the planets population, then if one person took twice their portion, >that would leave less for every other person. This is obviously based >on Malthus, and as Fuller has proven, is not accurate. Sounds accurate to me, as far as apples go. Am I missing something? >Contrary to Fuller, there is no place on earth where this 500 apple >metaphor doesn't hold true. In the exact form stated above, I agree. But wasn't Fuller talking about something else? >>ME> Wilson wrote that Fuller said: information would double every >>ME> nanosecond in the year 2012. Sounds like Mark Twain calculating that if the Mississippi river continues to straighten out its kinks year after year, by 1930 it would only be 11 miles long... :-) But unlike that, it does seem that information can grow with few limits. More the the phase velocity of an electromagnetic wave, which can be infinite, even tho nothing can travel faster than light. >...information is non-physical... Nearly so. It has to exist in some form, on paper or on a disk or a tape or a CD rom on in someone's head, but the physical density can be so large, that it seems useful to ignore the physical limits. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Jul 1995 23:20:10 -0400 Reply-To: AMKALENAK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: AMKALENAK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Hard to heat, cool, leaks like siv What books have you read ? Fuller began his work on ephemeral structuring well before the "60's" and continued after. The "60's" didn't produce geodesic domes, though the experimental nature of society at the time may have helped temporarily popularize them. I think Geodesic domes are still a work in progress - evolving. ........ They are "self-cooling" when properly constructed. As to "leaking-like-a-sive", this seems more a function of building technique & materials than being a dome, and may well stem from trying to adapt conventional building trades techniques to an unconventional structure. Heating a clearspan structure is a different problem, in that heat rises and "puddles at the top. Valving the interior of the structure during cold weather is part of the solution as is "gravity heating". Tony ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 08:16:13 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Synergetics: Re- A and B Modules Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com In-Reply-To: <9507121000.AA21950@highway1.com.au>; from "John Mac Cosham" at Jul 12, 95 5:58 pm John, The only way to understand Mites (A and B modules) is to build models. I found that an easy way to make a bunch of Mites was to get some type of easy-to-cut material (balsa wood, foam plastic, etc) and cut it into a cube of say 3 inches on a side. Then draw all the diagonals on all the faces (12 diagonals). Now cut along all the diagonals. You should end up with 24 mites (4 x 6). Now you have 24 "Mighty Mites" that can be arranged in lots of ways. See Synergetics II, Plate 24 and 986.432. If you want, you could even color in the blue A's and the red B's (see 986.422 & plate 17). Stu Q: Are you listening? Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Jul 1995 15:11:22 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckyballs Richard, If you are interested in Buckyballs, then I presented a paper in Santa Barbara showing that the currently accepted model of pentagons and hexagons is unstable. (also known as the truncated icosahedron model) As you probably know only triangles are stable. I presented a pentikis dodecahedron as a probably more correct model. These two figures are duals of each other. truncated icosahedron: 90 edges, 32 faces, 60 vertices. pentikis dodecahedron: 90 edges, 60 faces, 32 vertices. My model can be easily built from straws and string, and it holds its shape. Imagine a dodecahedron with each face made into a shallow pentagonal pyramid. Nature refused to publish my paper. Also the BFI newletter has so far ignored my request that they publish a picture of my model. There's a lot more I could say here, but I feel like I'm getting a little long winded. I have to figure out how to upload (outload is probably better) this stuff. Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 05:28:24 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leo Elliott Subject: Fuller's definition of info? Walt makes a good point about the need to distinguish raw data, coming in, as Bucky said, from farther and farther away (via Hubble, etc.), and whatever this data gets distilled into to produce patterns of "information", and whatever further distillation occurs to produce "knowledge" or "wisdom". (My personal favorite def of info was that of Gregory Bateson, something to the effect of "a difference that makes a difference", or some data/info that _in-forms_ or re-forms one's perspective(s), which tells me something I didn't know before about whatever it is that the data/info pertains to.) Bucky was also an advocate of "perpetual re-inventorying" of one's beliefs, ideas, concepts, and I presume also one's info/data. Surely the deluge of data that flows by our various electronic ports each day gives support to Bucky's def of "intelligence" as "the ability to dismiss the irrelevant" -- which begs the question, as Joe (?) recently posted, of what counts as noise and what as signal as the great Internet tide flows in and out each day -- has anyone charted the periodicity of email yet ;-) (This also brings to mind Nicholas Negroponte's [and others'] prediction of the rise in "smart filters", to select out only that news/data, etc. which happens to be on my Curiousabout List; I suppose this is an evolutionary step up from the old "bozo filters" designed to simply filter out the unwanted. -- What I would really be in the market for is a Universal Mute, capable of instantaneous and prolonged muting/filtering of any offending car stereo, boom box, etc. which happens to pass by my sensitive earlobes.) Leo Elliott Charlottesville, VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 20:15:45 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: Synergetics: Re- A and B Modules Hi Joe: That sounds like a good way to make up a lot of mites.(new conceptualization for me....making them from cubes like that) I have some A and B modules constructed from steel. What I want to know is why Bucky on page 56 of Cosmography refers to A modules as being positive and negative and B modules as being left and right winging? Why are they not both just positive and negative? It looks to me like the B's could be turned inside out to make each other, too. So why in cosmography is he refering to them as left and right winging and then saying LB = (-) * (-) = (+). I assume LB means left winging B and I understand the algebra but it makes no sense. thanks swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:50:09 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: information How does fuller assmilate information with this large shapes perspective, have you any imagining about him doing that. >Bucky was also an advocate of "perpetual re-inventorying" of one's >beliefs, ideas, concepts, and I presume also one's info/data. Surely >the deluge of data that flows by our various electronic ports each >day gives support to Bucky's def of "intelligence" as "the ability >to dismiss the irrelevant" -- which begs the question, as Joe (?) >recently posted, of what counts as noise and what as signal as the >great Internet tide flows in and out each day -- has anyone charted >the periodicity of email yet ;-) i like to really reinventorying my beliefe system my idea of what is reality. any clues of how to go about doing that. you might think it is stupid question but i am really intrested. how can one dismiss irrelevencies. check this if you were Fuller and you have this subjects to study how would you order them astronomy (movement, angle, galaxies measurment distance) therodynamics general elements ,gases, measurments reactions chrystals history of mathematics in a scientific book fuller geometry close packing ,angle , circles ivm, newton , brain mind ..... and what do you say to yourself as you are about to invistigate this subjects. i am sorry i have quite few closed chnnels in the brain to imagine how he would do this. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:56:49 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: world citizen When i tell some dutch people i am world citized, they think i am jocking. becuse they think they have advantage. in reality it is just advantages, when one gets somthing they like to identify. every one is ruuning for hunny. if you want to have a feeling for the pirates and how they acted in the past just come to Holland. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 20:24:57 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Seth Itzkan Subject: July 12th gathering Comments: cc: Jessica Lipnack Many thanks to everyone who came to our little gathering at Mt. Auburn Cemetary to pay respects to Bucky on his 100th Birthday. It was quite special. We told Bucky stories, Brother Blue did his dancing thing, then we sang Happy Birthday. Just as we were departing, at exactly 7:12, it started to sprinkle from an apparently crystal clear sky. Brother Blue said it was the angles crying. Thanks Bucky. Keep up the good work. Seth J. Itzkan BBN Educational Technologies Mail Stop 20/6d 150 Cambridge Park Drive Cambridge, MA 02140 sitzkan@bbn.com 617-873-3163 (v) 617-873-2455 (f) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Jul 1995 21:25:29 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ian Tresman Organization: Knowledge Computing Subject: Web annoucement: Global Gazetteer, Geographic data The GLOBAL GAZETTEER The Global Gazetteer is a file of over 750,000 place names throughout the world enriched with additional geographic and statistical data. We believe that it is one of the largest and most complete files of its type available, and unique in the way in which various data elements have been brought together. The GLOBAL GAZETTEER consists of place names at 4 levels: Countries Administrative Regions (Counties, States, Provinces, Districts, etc) Places (Cities, Towns, Villages and other populated places) Reference files (including Unicode) ALLM Systems & Marketing 21 Beechcroft Road Bushey, WATFORD WD2 2JU England. UK tel: 01923 230150. UK fax: 01923 211148. E-mail: apritchard@cix.compulink.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 01:43:19 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Erich Fox Organization: Woodsworth College Subject: subscription information how can I subscribe to listserv? thanks efox ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 02:31:22 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Boldt Organization: none Subject: Re: Buckyballs WLauritzen (wlauritzen@aol.com) wrote: : Richard, : If you are interested in Buckyballs, then I presented a paper in Santa : Barbara showing that the currently accepted model of pentagons and : hexagons is unstable. (also known as the truncated icosahedron model) As : you probably know only triangles are stable. I presented a pentikis That is not quite correct; only triangles would be stable under compressional stress. The pentagonan and hexagonal faces are very stable under tension, which is assured by the distortion of what would otherwise be 4 evenly distributed bonding locations on each carbon atom. -- --david boldt ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 11:17:33 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: Doubling of information Wilson wrote: >>>> Fuller said that information would double every >>>> nanosecond in the year 2012. james fischer replied: >>> ... that is a trend-line extrapolation. There are limits! ... then Dagan added: >> ... There are no limits, if the opposite were true infinity wouldn't exist. There ARE limits. There also seems to be a limited understanding of the concept of entropy, which "limits" us long before any sort of "infinite space"/"infinite universe" issues arise. The universe we can "utilize" is much smaller than the one that exists, thank God. >> In my statement, information is non-physical and the rate of its increase is >> nearly impossible to change. How can anything alter something that is global >> and non-physical? Information spends all of its time being limited by physical media. Bandwidth limitations, storage limitations, and the all-important limits on our patientice and time to absorb it all, impose limits on any possible future "information doubling time". And Dagan Summarized: >I'm surprised that in this discussion of the information explosion no >distinctions have been made between raw data, the information which is >distilled from that raw data, and the wisdom which is distilled from >the information. That's the point I was trying to make with the "copies" example. Looks like I failed. >When you get 150 channels of video programming and you still can't find >anything to watch, you have a much larger amount of data to handle but no >more useful information. Right on target! Or, when you have 4300 news groups with an ever-growing cross-posting ratio, and a growing percentage of people who post replies with 100% of the original posting included... >>>> BUT OUR FOCUS COULD NOT BE FURTHER FROM THE POINT!!! <<<< The damage done by the data mechants and the futurologists is that they have beaten the meaningless term "information" into the collective mind for so long, that we have all lost sight of the point. The point is: The mind "thinks" with IDEAS, not "information". Information is required to illustrate an idea, but ideas are only supported, revised, and replaced by OTHER ideas, not by "information". Information by itself does not create ideas. Most of the ideas of great general value have been created by people with very little information at hand. I find myself constantly lending a gentle hand to people who are trying to "process too much data", in the hopes that their efforts will somehow yield a "result" that will make an "answer" jump off the screen/printout at them. Most of these folks are very sure that if they had "all the data", they could massage it a bit, and solve a problem. Sadly, this is true only to a limited extent, and only in a trivial class of problems that can be solved more quickly by understanding prior ideas that can be applied to a subset of the data at hand. Corporations fly me about the planet and pay me silly amounts of money to tell them the same thing over and over again. I tell them that they are too bogged down in the details of day- to-day "management" to "lead" or "have new ideas". I can (and have) BURN the entire contents of most people's in/out baskets, and nothing bad happens as a result. See the problem? >By the way, James Fischer, glad you're still with us! I listen more than I talk Walt, and read more than I write. You folks are way ahead of me on Bucky geometry, so I have little to contribute to most trains of thought here. If you wish, I could mail the occasional "Wow!" or "Huh? Let me think about that a bit...", but someone might call that "Information", so I had better not. The earth is populated by Scientists, who practice the art of infallibility, and Non-Scientists, who are taken in by it. James Fischer jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 15:32:15 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: Doubling of information Dear joy, i find this article in new scintist. i was surprised, i only know the general idea of the electric grid. few lines from the article. When Arab energy ministers met in Cairo in April, there was one thing at the top of thier agend- plans for a regional electicity grid that would stretch more than 5000 kilometres from Marocco in the west to the gulf states in the east. and for Maher Abaza, Egypt,s energy minister and the meetings host, that would only be the start .Abaza forsees a network, with Egypt at its heart, that would give the energy hungry countries of Europeaccess to the hydropower of Africa mightiest rivers. Abaza is following in the footsteps of Richard Buckminister Fuller, the maverick American arcgutect abd futurologist. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 16:15:50 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: Doubling of information >Wilson wrote: it is funny that the subject of information brought as a refrence to anton Wilson. who advocates reading 1000 of books to understand brain washing, in his book the rise of ? i am just tired of people who are trying to liberate us. for those who know more about ideas, please tell us more. we have a serious intent, put some feeling in your statments. we do not all have the same abilities, for obvious reasons. alot of criticism, dealing with many subjects is not easy, if you have constructive advice please tell us. as i said somtime ago, i wish that fuller gave more explicte steps to comprhensivity. i know a lot of people who became more nuratic and confused trying to understand everything. while now it seems to me that is not what he was saying. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 10:15:47 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: digest fLUX-staff Subject: Re: Doubling of information Wilson wrote: >>>> Fuller said that information would double every >>>> nanosecond in the year 2012. According to the MAYA, who came up the most accurate form of calendar (from our western point of view), the world will end in the year 2012. Coincedence ? We might interpret this as.... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 16:40:14 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: stop nuclear tests In Message Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:08:52 +0000, cble_bm@chem.ruu.nl (Monique Regter) writes: > # # # # ##### # ####### # ###### > ## # # # # # # # # # # # > # # # # # # # # # # # # > # # # # # # # ##### # # ###### > # # # # # # # # ####### # # > # ## # # # # # # # # # # > # # ##### ##### ####### ####### # # # # > > ##### ###### #### ##### #### # > # # # # # # > # ##### #### # #### # > # # # # # > # # # # # # # # > # ###### #### # #### # > > > 1 SHIMIZU Seishi Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan > 2 Yuichi Nishihara Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan > 3 Hirohisa TANIGUCHI Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan > 4 Takashi Tomoeda Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan > 5 Tomoki KOBAYASHI Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan > 6 Munehito ARAI Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan > 7 Akira Okazaki Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan > 8 Atsushi Matsumura Physics, Tohoku University, Japan > 9 Kouta Yamamoto Chemistry,Tohoku University,Japan > 10 Yasushi UJIOKA Degremont S.A., France > 11 Toru Hara Universite de Paris Sud, France > 12 Rene Bakker CEA - Saclay, France > 13 David Garzella Universite de Paris Sud, France > 14 Henk Blok Vrije Universiteit/NIKHEF, Amsterdam > 15 Igor Passchier NIKHEF, Amsterdam > 16 Ard van Sighem NIKHEF, Amsterdam > 17 Johan Noordhoek KOL Leiden > 18 C.M.C.M. van Woerkens Kamerlingh Onnes Laboratory, Leiden > 19 Annemarie Borst, Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam > 20 Gijs Nelemans Universiteit Utrecht > 21 Susanne Buiter Universiteit Utrecht > 22 Stan Schoofs Universiteit Utrecht > 23 Edward Prendergast Universiteit Utrecht > 24 Wilfried van Sark Universiteit Utrecht > 25 Jeike Wallinga Universiteit Utrecht > 26 Mirna van Hoek Universiteit Nijmegen > 27 Bram Bouwens Indiana University, Bloomington > 28 Arjan van Dijk Delft University of Technology > 29 Rene' Delfos Ecole Centrale de Lyon > 30 Rene' Noordhoek Utrecht University, The Netherlands > 31 Carine Briand Universite d'Orsay - France > 32 Myriam Guissani Universite Paris-Sud, France > 33 David Lauvergnat Universite Paris-Sud, France > 34 Philippe Hiberty Universite Paris-Sud, France > 35 Carsten Byrman Utrecht University, The Netherlands > 36 Marc Koper Universiteit Utrecht > 37 Wouter Baars Universiteit Utrecht > 38 Albert Noorlandt Universiteit Utrecht > 39 Johan Muller Universiteit Utrecht > 40 Monique Regter Universiteit Utrecht > 41 Mohamed Tagdi university of utrecht > > Dear Sirs,Madames > > This is a chain letter to urge the french > government to stop nuclear tests. > If you agree with us, please add your name to the list above, > and send copies to your freinds. > We will add up the lists that had come back to us, and send it > to the French Government. > > If you happen to be the hundredth,two hundredth, three hundredth, > and so on, on the list, please send a copy of the mail back to the > addresses below, so that we can keep track of this project. If you >have > addresses below, so that we can keep track of this project. If you >have > any comment please send mails to us. And also, > if you are multi-lingual and have friends who may not understand > English, please translate this message and add it to the end of the >mail. > Thank you very much. > > > ******* addresses of the organizers > shimizu@femto.phys.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp > keshi@uticeaix1.icepp.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp <- please use this adress > ******* > >****************************************************************************** >Monique M.F. Regter >secretary Department Biochemistry of Membranes (CBLE) >Utrecht University >Padualaan 8, 3584 CH Utrecht >The Netherlands >tel.: (+31) 30 - 533342 >fax : (+31) 30 - 522478 >e-mail adress: cble@chem.ruu.nl ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 11:23:17 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: Doubling of information > The mind "thinks" with IDEAS, not "information". > > Information is required to illustrate an idea, but ideas > are only supported, revised, and replaced by OTHER ideas, > not by "information". Information by itself does not create > ideas. Most of the ideas of great general value have been > created by people with very little information at hand. index everything, is a sloution to deal with a lot of information. i am trying this now. just remmber the first 8 years of education. then it is easy why some people have problem. that is why there is a need to map knowldge in new way different from the current specialization structures. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 23:49:50 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: just completed Buckminster Fuller Symposium RE: Buckminster Fuller: A Centennial Symposium and Celebration, July 14-16, 1995, San Diego, California On the Fuller Centennial 1995: a Personal Account by Kirby Urner Part I We filed in to the darkened auditorium en masse, taking in the stage flanked by large projector screens showing earth from space. Outside, conferees purchased lattes and espresso from a brass samovar, while listening to melodious tones played live on a keyboard. In the foyer were GENI exhibits about the global energy grid, impressive collages about design science and geometry in nature, and tables stacked with Buckyware: T-shirts, books, maps, all being picked over hungrily by the conferees. A simple geodesic dome sat towards the back of the stage, a dry ice mist boiling up around it, reflecting the multi-hued stage lighting. Video cameras perched on tripods aimed at the nine empty chairs lined up in front of the dome. The show was about to begin. Actually, the show had begun the previous day in that same Mandeville Auditorium at UCSD, where Medard Gabel and Chuck Dingee led their first two of six World Games. And in Balboa Park, volunteers unloaded trucks and began constructing the various artifacts without which no Fuller symposium would be complete. By the time of the opening ceremonies, a school teacher from northern California and friends had assembled all but four of the fiberglass components of her 20-foot bone-white, skeletal Fly's Eye. The structure was completed the following morning. The entire 3-day format reflected the made-for-television culture of southern California, complete with TV-style talk show host and musical numbers. Likewise, the conference venue, facilities spread out all over greater San Diego, bespoke of this culture's reliance on the automobile. We would have been helpless to follow the giant icosahedral globe, inflated and lighted at the various main events, without our rented Japanese minivan. However, given the premise of using a whole city for a campus, one had to admit that GENI had done an excellent job of matching facilities to events. Bucky for Kids, the Dymaxion Car, and the Design Science movies were all free and open to the public at Balboa park, where high tech domes, Spanish-style palisades, and a gigantic balboa tree blended beautifully. The Saturday night concert on Shelter Island added to the upscale milieu which made Fuller seem fashionable, even mainstream. How could we doubt our own reality as a cresting wave of design science sophistication, ready to make the world work for everyone? GENI had successfully posed the question. In the nine chairs on stage, from left to right, sat some of the stars in the Fullerian constellation: Harold Kroto, codiscoverer of buckminsterfullerene Amy Edmondson, author of A Fuller Explanation Walter Hickle, futuristic former governor of Alaska Clark Anthony, anchor for KNSD TV, our emcee for the evening Peter Meisen, founder of GENI, organizer for the conference Kiyoshi Kuromiya, long-time collaborator with Fuller Don Richter, founder of Temcor, the dome-building company Medard Gabel, the head of World Game Interspersed with clips from the coming film attractions, and Bucky impersonations by Bill Perkins, whose most convincing moment was as a silhouetted Fuller emerging from the mists of the backlit dome, was some fairly free-wheeling discussion. The cracks in the conceptual superstructure were immediately obvious. The kick-off question was about how politics doesn't seem to be working, and Fuller's strategies to effect change outside of politics. What did our speakers think was the problem with politics and how effectively did Fuller demonstrate an alternative? What followed was a lot of input from Hickle about how only global government can protect us from the rapacity of the private sector. Speaking as a former governor of Alaska, where much of the resources are held by the state, he didn't see how we could protect the ocean floors and other vast areas of the world "held in common" if we didn't accept the need for regulatory bodies. Amidst his remarks were lots of endorsements for US-style democracy. Richter defended the private sector as the place where human initiative was most effectively translated into real world artifacts, thereby creating a government-versus-private-sector tension as comfortably familiar as any debate on the MacNeil-Lehrer news hour. All of this raised the hackles of certain hecklers in the audience who were unable to contain their disappointment over hearing Fuller repackaged in mass-market, USA Today terms. Two individuals rose to their feet, shouting and shaking their fists. The emcee was doing his professional best to stick to the script, reminding us in a reasonable tone that we had the whole weekend to challenge the speakers with our own viewpoints, when suddenly a gentleman in a suit and armed with a briefcase strode up on stage, glowering at the audience, shouting how time was running out and Bucky's critical path program had to happen NOW ("we know!" someone shouted back), at which point he showered us with a tick wad of purple pamphlets. His mustache looked pasted on and at first I thought this was another impersonation of somebody, but by the second showering of pamphlets, I realized this was another deviation from the script -- more heartfelt intensity expressing itself in curious ways. Kiyoshi appeared the most amused by these disruptions and his subsequent remarks about Fuller's subversiveness were calculated to assure the hecklers that all hope was not lost. Amy, who was suffering from severe sleep depravation, but not showing it, pointed out that Fuller's faith in intuition as a primary source of unanticipated scientific results was perfectly illustrated in the story behind the discovery buckminsterfullerene, and turned it over to Kroto. Kroto used the opportunity to effectively stump for more funding for basic scientific research. He kept expressing wonderment that the USA would disembowel Bell Labs, its most prestigious and effective basic research facility, and that AT&T would then squander the same money on advertising aimed at fighting MCI and Sprint for long distance customers. If this was "free market capitalism" at work, then it spelled death for basic research, and lower living standards for all of us. Peter Meisen also took on the question of funding, and how humans seemed quick to rally around the flag in war time but couldn't seem to get it together when the situation was equally critical, but when war was not the answer. When he used the Gulf War as an example of when the world took a stand, drew a line in the sand, and said "no way" to Saddam, he sounded a little too stridently Bush-like to many ears, and more shouting from the audience ensued. Kroto picked up the ball and put the right spin on it: we still inculcate nationalism in our children, even when we have trouble teaching them anything worthwhile, and nationalism is destructive. This was more what the audience needed to hear. All of a sudden, the stage was filled with dancing girls made up to look like teenagers, holding triangular pieces of the Dymaxion Map and carrying on like cheerleaders to John Denver's bright little calypso tune about the World Game. Medard looked especially uncomfortable during this interlude, much to the amusement of his partner in the audience, Chuck Dingee. Kroto moved his chair to watch from the wings. The grand finale came with the introduction of Allegra Fuller Snyder, who received a standing ovation as she walked into the limelight. She apologized for reading a prepared speech but explained it would be more from the heart if she didn't have to make it up on the spot -- something she unavoidably found herself doing later that weekend anyway, before a different audience (see Part II of this write-up). Allegra wanted us to share a sense of our potential to create synergy as a network. By combining the talents and energies of all the people in this room, with those of our colleagues and associates unable to attend, we had what it takes to make Fuller's dreams come true. And this is what Bucky had most hoped and longed for, Allegra emphasized, not necessarily to be remembered, honored and celebrated as an historical figure, as a subject of monuments and memorials, but to be used and accessed as the impetus for a lasting transformation in the global affairs of humanity. The way to celebrate Fuller was to end death by starvation, solve critical energy problems, give humanity the tools to survive and flourish sustainably, indefinitely. Allegra went on to recite an impressive litany of names and their ongoing contributions to the work. Robert Gray was mentioned, and myself, whose collaboration with Richard Hawkins illustrated the ground-breaking potential of the internet to facilitate design science projects, with design teams scattered geographically, but bonded conceptually via these exciting new artifact-enabled capabilities. This theme of the internet and design science was echoed throughout the conference, and the Richard Hawkins ClockTet synergetics animation made its way to Balboa Park, where it showed between films as the cartoon. Allegra received a glass tetrahedral sculpture to another standing ovation, and we watched Bucky on video talking about his lifelong dedication to omnihumanity, with echoes forward to the closing ceremonies two nights later, at another university. Conferees then swarmed on stage to meet the stars, and around the Dymaxion birthday cake which had to be moved to the foyer at the last minute because of the no food rule in the auditorium. On stage, I met Tony deVarco for the first time, outbound managing director of BFI, and Bonnie Goldstein, BFI's first (we hope not last) professional archivist, also outbound with her husband Tony, and their beautiful new baby boy, about the same age as our little girl. I started making other contacts that evening, and continued to do so throughout the weekend. This was, of course, a major point of the whole symposium, to give us opportunities to rub shoulders and swap stories and ideas -- and to pass the babies around. [Stay tuned for Part II] Abbreviations: BFI : Buckminster Fuller Institute GENI: Global Energy Network International UCSD: University of California, San Diego ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 14:20:43 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: just completed Buckminster Fuller Symposium > >Allegra wanted us to share a sense of our potential to >create synergy as a network. By combining the talents and >energies of all the people in this room, with those of our >colleagues and associates unable to attend, we had what it >takes to make Fuller's dreams come true. And this is what >Bucky had most hoped and longed for, Allegra emphasized, could you say that we could do more than we are doing now by really sharing and helping others rather than getting there first. you have to start giving to know how much there is to give. for me now it is a sort of impersonal communication.if there is problem in coordination it should be discussed. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 17:41:32 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: IO30470@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Organization: University of Maine System Subject: Vegas Clubs I'm going to Las Vegas within the next few weeks, and was hoping someone could give me info on womens/mixed gay-lesbian bars. Thanks, Amy. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:16:51 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ron Posner end." Subject: Re: Vegas Clubs In-Reply-To: <95199.174132IO30470@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Geodesic dome type clubs? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 15:37:16 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Re: Vegas Clubs I'm going to Las Vegas within the next few weeks, and was hoping someone could give me info on womens/mixed gay-lesbian bars. Thanks, Amy. There is a Fuller-theme gay bar on Fremont Street (at least, there was in 1992), lavishly decorated with Dwelling-Unit type booths, a titanium bar, and huge omnitriangulated bathrooms more suitable for colloquia, I thought, than what bathrooms are usually suitable for. The entire building is suspended from a central mast and the bartender told me that the original plan was for patrons to be shot through pneumatic tubes, something like Orly in Paris, but that there were technical problems and one or two unlucky patrons ended up head-first in the roof of the nearby Liberace museum. The bartender and I also discussed having sex the Dymaxion way -- that is, in short bursts over a twenty-four hour period. I think there's something about this in the excised pages of Nine Chains though I could be wrong. It's happened before. Hope this helps. :-) Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Jul 1995 22:27:29 +0000 Reply-To: richard@henderr.demon.co.uk Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Henderson Subject: BFVI - arg hey folks, I've mailed Joe, but he seems to be on vacation or something.. I'm updating the Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute web pages, but I've managed to delete Joe's most recent update to the BFVI document. Has anyone out there kept a copy? I'd really appreciate it if someone could mail it to me - it'd save me typing the whole shebang in again from scratch... regards, Richard *----------http://metro.turnpike.net/G/GoatBoy/index.html----------* When you get the blues and you wanna shoot yrself in the head It's alright It's alright Go ahead ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 08:38:42 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: lazariukj@PROCESS.CYANCORP.COM Organization: SaskNet News Distribution Subject: Re: information In article <60613.tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl>, "< Tagdi>" wrote: > > i like to really reinventorying my beliefe system > my idea of what is reality. any clues of how to go about doing that. > you might think it is stupid question but i am really intrested. > how can one dismiss irrelevencies. > how can one dismiss irrelevencies? Nothing discards irrelevencies like the point of a gun. Imagine you are driving a motorcycle at 60MPH on a country road. You come out of a valley to see that 40 feet away there is a 90 degree turn, a sharp drop into a field of rocks faces you, you start to see that you will have to do some pretty clear thinking if you are to survive, you are not too worried at the moment about how your hair looks or whether you have ring around the collar. I would imagine that by then you are pretty much discarding irrelevencies. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 11:13:25 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Numbers Few days ago i was thinking that early humans learned to count becuse of survival reason, just as hunger is trick of nature to go learn. Yesterday i find this introduction. Archaeology and anthropological studies of the few remaining primitive tribes have shed light on the earlliest astronomical practices.Imagine yourself an intelligent hunter of 30,000 y ago. Agriculture is not yet practiced.you have to depend on hunting and gathering for food.Celestial phenomena are not your immediate concern, but you know that certain celestial cycles are important. You want to know when berries on the mountain will ripen and when migratory birds will arrive at a nearby lake. Such knowledg requires cumulative day counts and knowledge of the seasons, best derived from sky phenomena. When you travel far, you want to be able to find your way home. Celestial objects are your only reliable guides in unfamiliar landscpes. par 2 missing. for such reason, early people began to keep reconds of events in the sky. this supported by modern aborigines caledear sticks that record dates or counts of days, by carved notches. book title the cosmic voyage: through time and space ( astronomy) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 18:37:35 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Fuller Centennial (Part 2 of 3) RE: Buckminster Fuller: A Centennial Symposium and Celebration, July 14-16, 1995, San Diego, California On the Fuller Centennial 1995: a Personal Account by Kirby Urner Part II In the hallways between seminars, during odd moments off stage, or while standing on and around the huge World Game map, taped to the floor of the SDSU Peterson Gymnasium (see Part III), speakers and conferees intermingled, their global trajectories looping into tight little knots all around greater San Diego. Noel Simbul had come to the Buckminster Fuller Centennial all the way from the Philippines in search of chord factors for a high frequency geodesic dome. Noel knew how to build lower frequency domes from steel and concrete; he had a snapshot of his still-drying rollerblade palace to prove it. But now the Philippine government had signed off on a hastily conceived proposal to do a 1000 footer as the centerpiece of a kind of Universal Studios in Southeast Asia, on the site of the now defunct Clark Air Force Base. Not even Don Richter had built a dome this big, no one had, although the Saudis had at one time expressed an interest. Noel chuckled at the thought of the RP Finance Minister asking the World Bank for a $50 million dome loan -- Don's rough idea of the price tag. So Noel was hoping when he got home to get the project rescaled to something more reasonable, but even a rather smaller dome would need to be of a much higher frequency than any he had so far designed. He wandered the halls in search of technical assistance. Penelope Place was game to coordinate multimedia productions. She would be the "time-line nanny" that content producers love to hate, enforcing critical deadlines along the path towards commercial distribution. BFI already had a sum earmarked to fund her in this role, but she still needed to find the threads currently out there in need of interweaving -- not an easy job. Since she lives in Santa Fe, we agreed she would have little trouble coordinating with Richard Hawkins. I also told her about Blaine D'Amico's CDROM, a still primitive prototype complete with QuickTime movies, animations, and scrolling text files, all retrievable through geometric designs doubling as menus. Randolph Craft, one of the seminar leaders, holds other relevant threads and was glad to receive Robert Snyder's spiritual blessing to continue the work of promulgating Bucky's work via the audiovisual media. Robert, Allegra's husband, is a professional film maker and I finally got to see his piece on Fuller at Balboa Park -- Dawn too until she had to leave with our squirmy baby. I'd seen Snyder's film on Michelangelo here in Portland some months before. The seminars gave speakers a chance to present their projects and ideas in a more organized form, and gave conferees their opportunity to inquire, challenge and elaborate during the Q&A sessions. Many of the seminars were packed, even to the point of turning people away, by order of the fire marshal. Dawn, Tara and I sat in the back row of Barbara Marx Hubbard's presentation, taking in her curious brand of christocentric technomysticism, which she freely acknowledged was politically incorrect. She shared about when Bucky asked her to run for President of the United States, and how her thoughts about so doing freed her from an imprisoning self image. She was no longer bound by patriarchal typecasting. She was just getting to another critical meeting with Bucky when Tara began squirming again, and this time it was my turn to leave. Out in the semi-deserted cafeteria, Tara practiced walking to daddy for the first time. Dawn filled me in on the talk by Barbara's co-presenter Gregory Stock Ph.D., who has recently published a book about the MetaMan, his word for the cybernetic, globally self-informing, cell-silicon organism our species is becoming aboard Motherboard Earth -- becoming whether we like it or not; there's simply no turning back. After we had gotten bored playing with ice cubes, Tara and I accessed another seminar-in-progress where amazing slides were being shown, of dwellings built from existing inventory in the agricultural sector, from silo parts in particular. We viewed slides of energy harvesting, homes, some transportable, some lived in for years. These were highly modular, flexible designs, built to conserve resources while providing comfortable living quarters for humans working in extremely harsh environments. I left with a stronger sense than ever that humans have the wherewithal to take care of themselves, sustainably, and at a high living standard. We just need to get out of our own way and let it happen. We took off in our Mitsubishi Expo to tour greater San Diego. This is a center of the military industrial complex, what Fuller identified in Critical Path as the prime contractor irrigation system for the LAWCAP economy. Aircraft carriers Kitty Hawk and Constellation loomed as silhouettes against the setting sun. Driving by a naval base entrance on Coronado Peninsula, I snapped a picture of one of two in-service geodesic domes I saw on this trip; the other was at the San Diego zoo. By nightfall, we were once again hot on the trail of the inflatable icosahedron (see Part I), now moved to Shelter Island at Humphrey's By the Bay, the site for the Saturday night benefit concert. Our thirteen-month-old baby bounced on her knees and swayed to the music, entertaining all around her, until she got cranky (long past her bed time). We left just before the last set, which was unfortunate, since we had wanted to hear Chuck Dingee's Bucky song again, this time from a serious sound stage. During the concert, flyers were passed out inviting conferees to an event at another conference happening simultaneously. The Institute for Noetic Sciences had arranged a commlink between the Atlas Ballroom and someplace in Moscow -- all were invited. After leaving Dawn and sleepy Tara at the Horton Grand, I set out in search of more adventure, losing myself in the vast campus of interconnected facilities they call the Town & Country Hotel. I found Allegra and Robert wandering about looking equally lost, and somewhat exhausted. We entered the Atlas Ballroom to find the now-familiar flanking video screens, and a central podium, whereon stood former Apollo astronaut Edgar Mitchell, and some Russians with their translators. Allegra and Robert found their friend Jay Baldwin and when word reached the podium that these three VIPs were in the room, calls for speeches became inevitable, because this event also had everything to do with Bucky. The new satellite Dymaxion Map was prominently visible on the podium, and the reason these Russians had ventured to San Diego was to drum up interest and support for a geodesic dome in Gorky Park. This dome would house permanent commlink equipment, making people-to-people group communications, such as this one, a major park attraction. But this particular exercise in global communications wasn't going too well. The big screens showed our mostly empty conference room on the right, but where Moscow should have been on the left were the words: Far Side Mute. A third Russian, fluent in English, and dashing around with a microphone like some kind of Donahue, tried to keep the weary audience alive. He introduced Allegra, who made an impromptu speech about the value of global communications. He shouted for Jay, who talked about the appropriateness of using geodesic domes because of their apolitical universality. And Jay also wanted us to hear from Robert Snyder -- no one was getting off the hook tonight. Robert pointed out that their was some irony in using domes as USA-CIS commlinks as well, since historically domes had appeared along the DEW line to "keep the Russians out" whereas now the idea was to use the same structures to "bring the Russians in" -- at about which point Moscow appeared on the big screens: a man at a desk in what appeared to be a sparsely furnished office. The television was slow scan, meaning his facial expressions changed jerkily as he told us that the guests on the other end had yet to materialize, and reaching them by phone via the Moscow exchange was proving more difficult than reaching us by satellite in San Diego. Then the far side went mute again. We never did establish a remote dialog. [Stay tuned for Part III] Abbreviations: DEW: Defense Early Warning system LAWCAP: Lawyer-capitalism RP: Republic of the Philippines SDSU: San Diego State University ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 11:37:19 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Synergey Rockets,Missiles,and Men in space Willy Ley the problem of transfering as much energy as possible to the rocket and as little as possible to the exhaust was named `the problem of synergy` by professor Oberth,Hermann ( rocket engeineer). one might saythat the synergic problem is the equivalent of efficient driving,the problem of getting the most out of the vehicle on hand ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 18:02:10 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: World Game Institute Organization: Drexel University Subject: Bucky & WGI on Talk of the Nation Sorry for the late notice, but I just found out about this. Medard Gabel, Executive Director of World Game Institute is going to be interviewed on Talk of the Nation on NPR radio. It's a live show, scheduled for 3:00 PM today. In case you miss it, you might want to check to see if your local station rebroadcasts the show as they do here in Philadelphia (at 2:00 AM, I think). The subject will be Buckminster Fuller and World Game Institute. -Dane ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 22:14:04 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rama Organization: University of Oregon Subject: Self-Expanding spheres I saw the tail end of a science program on cable (Quantum Mechanics, 18 July 95) which showed a man demonstrating his designs for geodesic spheres, domes, and other shapes which were collapsible. Some of his designs are being considered by NASA fr future space missions. Some of the things shown on this show were: * A geodesic sphere the size of a basketball which could expand into a stable sphere 20ft in diameter. (When collapsed into the small sphere, the sphere was almost solid, no empty space.) * A geodesic dome framework, suitable for covering arenas or other open spaces, which could be retracted by turning a crank. It was sturdy throughout the range of its motion, and when fully retracted formed a short wall around the base. * Geodesic trusses which could pack into small spaces then be expanded into large frameworks. The program said he had originally come up with his ideas while playing around with different ways of folding paper. If anyone knows who this fellow was, or has any more info on his ideas, please post here or email kennanm@efn.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 21:28:16 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: archive How do I retrive postings from the geodesic archive. Also: What's Kirby Urners Web address? Ted Campbell Ted Campbell spy222@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Jul 1995 22:59:09 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Bucky & WGI on Talk of the Nation World Game Institute (?) wrote: Medard Gabel, Executive Director of World Game Institute is going to be interviewed on Talk of the Nation on NPR radio. It's a live show, scheduled for 3:00 PM today. In case you miss it, you might want to check to see if your local station rebroadcasts the show as they do here in Philadelphia (at 2:00 AM, I think). I caught the tail end of this interesting program. It will be rebroadcast in Philadelphia on WHYY 90.9 FM from 4-6 Am tomorrow, Saturday, July 22. One other person on the show was Jamie Snyder, Bucky's grandson. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 15:45:15 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Peter Creese Subject: Re: Self-Expanding spheres In-Reply-To: <3up8rc$6ac@pith.uoregon.edu> In message <3up8rc$6ac@pith.uoregon.edu>, Rama writes >I saw the tail end of a science program on cable (Quantum Mechanics, 18 July >95) which showed a man demonstrating his designs for geodesic spheres, domes, >and other shapes which were collapsible. Some of his designs are being >considered by NASA fr future space missions. Some of the things shown on this >show were: > >* A geodesic sphere the size of a basketball which could expand into a >stable sphere 20ft in diameter. (When collapsed into the small sphere, the >sphere was almost solid, no empty space.) > >* A geodesic dome framework, suitable for covering arenas or other open >spaces, which could be retracted by turning a crank. It was sturdy throughout >the range of its motion, and when fully retracted formed a short wall around >the base. > >* Geodesic trusses which could pack into small spaces then be expanded >into large frameworks. > >The program said he had originally come up with his ideas while playing around > with different ways of folding paper. > >If anyone knows who this fellow was, or has any more info on his ideas, please > post here or email kennanm@efn.org I would also be very interested in this info. Could you help me get information on the 'Fly's Eye dome'? Has anyone published any construction plans? Look forward to hearing from you. PC -- Peter Creese ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 01:55:32 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy222@AOL.COM Subject: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Buckminster Fuller: An Old Hat by Ted Campbell c Copyright, 1995 by Ted Campbell. All Rights Reserved. I discovered Buckminster Fuller on the day that it was announced that he had died, July 12, 1983, I was 17 years old. National Public Radio announced his death and did a short piece on him. I had seen his book, Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth, in a bookstore, I went out and bought it. Discovering Buckminster Fuller was, for me, a singular religious experience. He provided all of the necessary elements of a new religion. He appears on the scene rather miraculously out of a tenement building in Chicago with a book and an invention only two short years after he launched his career as "guinea pig B." An outsider of respected academic circles, he overcame apparently insurmountable obstacles--suicidal tendencies, alcoholism, "the gross universal cash heist" of multinational corporations--who invented "planned obsolescence" and play a "world war game"; hell-bent on destroying, if not humanity, individuality--and he eventually brought even his detractors to heel--something he never stopped pointing out: his honorary degrees, his patents, his books, his awesome lecture itinerary (50 times around the world and not once for pleasure), his Medal of Freedom. All of which he attributed to "teleologic alacrity" which "enabled [him] to fashion empirically." With the coming of Fuller came a new language, indecipherable to the uninitiated and utterly profound to his disciples. He posited a brighter day, just on the horizon, when the stark realization that "there's enough to go around" would give birth to humanity; delivering us out of our "group womb of collective unconsciousness." All my life I had been taught by secular humanists in the public schools, I was told, or rather, made to believe, that no "real" scientist would believe in God. Many of Buckminster Fuller's statements about Darwin's theory of Evolution struck my core beliefs; though I had never had a religious education. I became rather obsessed with Buckminster Fuller and his works--to think that any "real" scientist would believe in God. He seemed to me to be a sort of "messiah"--the man who had shone brightest, who had solved the worlds problems, who had written, after all, "The Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth" and had poignantly noted that the most significant fact about "our spaceship" was "the fact that an operating manual had not come with it." Buckminster Fuller provided one. I studied his works for about eight years, reading nearly all of his published books, and began to develop my own theories about his theories. I remained outside of the traditional school system I educated myself. Unfortunately, it seems to me now, that following Buckminster Fuller's philosophy, to the exclusion of all opposition, was rather self-limiting. I returned to college and began studying languages, literature, politics, the classics, and the Bible. And in doing so I discovered that the world of knowledge is so utterly vast that is almost a shame that Fuller was so self-centered; that he pulled people in, through his works, through his rhetoric, and caused them to remain there. His logic seems to show that everyone else is wrong and that contact with "well meaning" (but, nevertheless wrong) people, and their works, would be a contradiction to God's will--which would bring the apocalypse upon ourselves; "utopia or oblivion" the choice is yours and Fuller provides the only way out. This is a tragedy. Buckminster Fuller did many great and amazing things, but he and his works are not a world in themselves. They can be categorized as a subject that exists in relation to other subjects, but they do not stand alone. One cannot expect to operate in the "World of Fuller" when the world outside of it is greater. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 19:32:43 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: example of ephemeralization New Scientist June 17, 1995 issue The people who built Gossamer Albatross are building a solar powered airplane that may stay aloft indefinately by using Fuel-cells. This airplane would be at the leading edge of doing the most for the least. Or said in another way getting the most out of weight invested. Buckminster Fuller has written of fuel cells. They are one of the best ways of getting power. swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 19:32:37 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: GENI in New Scientist Magazine In Australia we get a good magazine called New Scientist. It is published in Europe, too. Mohammed made a mention of this article I am talking about. Perhaps the magazine is not published in the U.S.A. July 8 issue has "Global Power...the electric hypergrid" on its front cover. The article mentions GENI, Peter Miesner, and Buckminster Fuller. New Scientist is a very credible magazine and this article appearing seems to me to herald a real hope that the idea of a world grid can be accepted main stream. swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 17:04:18 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Spy222@AOL.COM wrote: >Buckminster Fuller: An Old Hat >by Ted Campbell >c Copyright, 1995 by Ted Campbell. All Rights Reserved. Ted -- that's a well-written article, effective at getting your views across. But don't you think this is a well-worn pattern in history: *any* strong thinker creates a gravitational "sphere of influence" which sucks some people in to stay, to become "disciples" or "apologists" or "expositors" or whatever? The book "Map of Misreading" by H. Bloom is all about this pattern in poetics, where weaker poets find their language warped and wraped around the poetics of their major influences -- it can be a real struggle to get free. What I see in your essay is the journal of a writer growing stronger and escaping Fuller's gravitational field. But to turn around and condemn him indicates to me that you have not quite attained your own freedom; your rockets are still firing to get you out of orbit. Fuller himself wrote glowing blurbs on the backs of book jackets about the future by people who wrote completely independently; I'm thinking of a book by Gerard O'Neill, about magnetic levetation devices and such, which Fuller heartily endorsed, and which doesn't mention Fuller at all. And Fuller himself read widely, not just his own stuff; he was a disciple of others, and earnestly sought to understand their work, sitting at their feet, if only in the library. Even now, I'm reading a book called The Midieval Machine by Jean Gimpel of which Fuller writes on the book jacket: "It contains more factual information regarding the Middle Ages than any single book that I have ever encountered." As a scholar, you are asserting your freedom to think your own thoughts and assemble your own world view. Fuller did the same thing. He came up with his results, which we now have to do with as we will. Your own journey is still very much in progress. I look forward to reading more of your stuff. Best wishes, Kirby ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 15:48:49 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Ted, Well, no one is perfect. You should always take what you can use. I don't believe any one person ever has all the answers. Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Jul 1995 19:31:39 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ed Applewhite Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Thanks Kirby. I think you hit just the right note. Your metier is teaching, you poor slob. Ed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 04:26:08 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Ed Applewhite wrote: >Thanks Kirby. I think you hit just the right note. Your metier is teaching, >you poor slob. >Ed I had a teaching job once. Didn't like grading papers. Kirby ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 01:30:10 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Dear Kirby, I don't mean to condem Buckminster Fuller, I mean to point out that he is not the messiah and to point out that Buckminster Fuller used many messiah style 'tricks' in order to grip peoples souls, their attention, in order to propel himself into the spotlight. A cult of personality formed around him. Most of the reactions I receive for my critiques of Buckminster Fuller show that his followers are fanatics, true believers. Buckminster Fuller's works need, I believe, to be criticized by the very people who believe in him. If this type of criticism were to destroy his philosophy, it must not have been very sound to begin with. I think much of Fuller's works are sound, his architecture and <> to a greater or lesser extent, but I think his world view, his vision for humanity, his socialistic cum religious tendencies, are skewed. Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 12:31:24 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat . I >returned to college and began studying languages, literature, politics, the >classics, and the Bible. And in doing so I discovered that the world of i think your subject of study is limited to be able to criticize Fuller. >knowledge is so utterly vast that is almost a shame that Fuller was so >self-centered; that he pulled people in, through his works, through his >rhetoric, and caused them to remain there. His logic seems to show that >everyone else is wrong and that contact with "well meaning" (but, i agree with you in a sense that fuller has total view and that can capture us, but he makes sense while others are dealing only with one aspect or area. i think it is natural to want to find solution when everything is opressed and the church is playing games. i wonder in stdying the bible if you acknowldge what they had use it for in the last 2000 years - 5 >nevertheless wrong) people, and their works, would be a contradiction to >God's will--which would bring the apocalypse upon ourselves; "utopia or >oblivion" the choice is yours and Fuller provides the only way out. This is >a tragedy. > i do not where you get this idea, since in the begining of critical path he says there is no good or bad people. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 12:31:27 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: GENI in New Scientist Magazine John Mac Cosham writes: >In Australia we get a good magazine called New Scientist. It is published >in Europe, too. Mohammed made a mention of this article I am talking about. >Perhaps the magazine is not published in the U.S.A. all this time i thought you lived in america. australia i like to go to australia. is it easy to get ajob there actully i hate to work In America and Europe you have to fight to get a piece of bread + dignity sold. I was also surprised about the article. but check Newsweek recent issue. there is an article about a space station needs tolite which works in weightlesness. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 10:09:01 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Seth Itzkan Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Excellent write up Ted, but don't blame Bucky for your own messianic projections and subsequent let down. Bucky wanted people to think for themselves and shunned blind or myopic following. No knowledge can live in a vacuum, and Bucky would have been the first to say so. > >Unfortunately, it seems to me now, that following Buckminster Fuller's >philosophy, to the exclusion of all opposition, was rather self-limiting. I >returned to college and began studying languages, literature, politics, the >classics, and the Bible. And in doing so I discovered that the world of >knowledge is so utterly vast that is almost a shame that Fuller was so >self-centered; that he pulled people in, through his works, through his >rhetoric, and caused them to remain there. His logic seems to show that >everyone else is wrong and that contact with "well meaning" (but, >nevertheless wrong) people, and their works, would be a contradiction to >God's will--which would bring the apocalypse upon ourselves; "utopia or >oblivion" the choice is yours and Fuller provides the only way out. This is >a tragedy. > >Buckminster Fuller did many great and amazing things, but he and his works >are not a world in themselves. They can be categorized as a subject that >exists in relation to other subjects, but they do not stand alone. One >cannot expect to operate in the "World of Fuller" when the world outside of >it is greater. Seth J. Itzkan BBN Educational Technologies Mail Stop 20/6d 150 Cambridge Park Drive Cambridge, MA 02140 sitzkan@bbn.com 617-873-3163 (v) 617-873-2455 (f) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 08:33:05 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Jonathan A. Smith" Organization: University of Washington Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat In-Reply-To: <3uvb52$lig@newsbf02.news.aol.com> On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, Spy 222 wrote: > I don't mean to condem Buckminster Fuller, I mean to point out that he is > not the messiah and to point out that Buckminster Fuller used many messiah > style 'tricks' in order to grip peoples souls, their attention, in order > to propel himself into the spotlight. I read a few books by Fuller when I was a teenager but he did not capture my soul and I have not read any of his work until recently. I became interested in re-examining his writing when I ran across a quote about removing scarcity. I am reading Critical Path now. It is now almost two decades since I read the last Fuller book. So far he seems to be a fascinating, and very self involved writer, but nowhere near the point of presenting himself as messiah. He tries to get you to consider taking on his world view, but any good writer does that. > I think much of Fuller's works are sound, his architecture and > <> to a greater or lesser extent, but I think his world view, > his vision for humanity, his socialistic cum religious tendencies, are > skewed. If you examine the work of any past writer, the history of ideas, you will find some of their views old-fashioned. Think of the past as a different place where people had different commonplace views. (Read, for example Albert Einstein's writing about society). But this should not keep us from taking their ideas seriously. If we can focus on understanding those ideas in context than we can learn something about their origin and the author's time. This can then provide insight about our relationship to our own times. I find Fuller's religious views interesting even if I do not completely agree with him. In Critical Path he tries to re-define god within science as: our apprehension of mathematical truth and elegance, of discovery, and universal scientific laws. This is not a surprising view for someone who's architecture and invention relies so heavily on mathematics, physics, and artistic insight. Compare this, for example, to Paul Goodman's "Creator Spirit," another definition of god based in experience and discovery. If I were to adapt Fuller's view I would broaden his definition of religious experience and remove the ties to positivism. But it was Fuller's social views that got me interested. I would agree with him that our society wastes an enormous quantity of human labor -- that is expends much of human effort in production that creates goods for use in competition between firms and not of direct human value. Many of our businesses are free-loaders -- they create external costs that add to their profits at society's expense. They produce enormous quantities of unnecessary packaging, advertising, commuting hours, toxic waste, contaminated land -- and then ask society to pay for the cleanup. It is now clear that the command economic model of the USSR is not much of an alternative. It proved spectacularly inefficient, and perhaps more important it did not engender technical innovation and social change. It was much too conservative. Its firms also created an environmental mess -- even worse without a free(r) press to make these abuses public. But I think you are very wrong if your aim is to convince people that there are more alternatives -- no new social arrangements to be tried. Historically social arrangements are always partly engineered for some people's benefit (take, for example, the invention of the industrial factory). Why not become more subtle and create social systems that will work for everyone's benefit? Can we do without some of the waste that comes out of production for competition rather than production for use? In this one dimension I find I agree with Fuller. I think proven solutions are not yet known, but it is important to continue the research. Contrary to the proclamations of the Republican leaders in congress we have not reached the end of history. Some ideas that may turn out to be useful may be the new models of market socialism, proposed by people like John Roemer (for example see: "A Future for Socialism" 1994, Harvard University Press.) In any case I doubt that Fuller would want us to esteem his ideas without having some of our own. We live in our own time and place, but that does not mean that some of our own ideas will not also seem quaint to people a decade or two down the road. Jonathan Smith jasmith@u.washington.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 11:48:50 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Dr. Rick Kirschner" Subject: Bucky Fuller Comments: cc: spy222@aol.com Dear Ted, I've been reading your critique of Bucky, and thought I'd respond. You say he used messiah 'style' tricks in order to grip peoples' souls. What in the world are messiah 'style' tricks? I'd like to see a book on that! Until I do, I think you've made up a complex reduction of a little guy's best intentions to devote his life to making the world successful. Bucky didn't try to convince anyone of anything.. he just put his information out there and trusted in the integrity of the universe to engage the right people to what needed to be done at the best possible time. He didn't use Public Relations tricks, believing that if his ideas were sound and truly in service to humanity, they would themselves draw attention.( and the proof is in the pudding!) Perhaps a' cult of personality ' as you claim did form around him. I can't say, as I have no memory of Bucky until I started reading his work a few years ago...but I can say that what attracted me most to his ideas are his sincere desire to help all of humanity be successful doing what only he could do based on his unique inventory of experiences, and his setting an example of this for others to follow. >Most of the reactions I receive for my critiques of Buckminster Fuller show that his followers are fanatics, true believers.< Excuse me, but considering the nature of reality, you're imposing your own subjectivity onto an objective field. In other words, (and as the Bible says ...) As you believe, so shall it be. You believe his 'followers' are fanatics, and then look for evidence, ignoring anything that would contradict the conclusion you've already formed. >I think his world view, his vision for humanity, his socialistic cum religious tendencies, are skewed.< Perhaps. But then, so are yours. Bucky never sought to impose is world view, but rather, to act on it. He encouraged others to do the same with their own views, believing (or so I believe) that humanity would find the way to their future not in following Bucky, but in having integrity with themselves. It is easy to tear down the work of someone like Bucky. It is easy to justify ignorance, division, polarization, and to defend doing things the way they've always been done. Bucky is guilty of being a visionary, of devoting himself in service to humanity, in speaking from his honest perceptions about his own conclusions regarding how best to make humanity successful. He didn't waste much time opposing other's ideas! The hard thing is to take the leap of faith that Bucky took. All the best, Rick *************************************************************** Buckminster Fuller said "If humanity does not opt for integrity, we are through completely. It is absolutely touch and go. Each one of us could make the difference." Dr.Rick Kirschner Co-Owner, Creative Director R&R Productions ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 18:50:06 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: novmondo Organization: SkyNET Corporation Subject: Dymaxion air-circulation in Geodesic? Can anyone tell me if the same air-circulation capabilities of the Dymaxion house can be had in a Geodesic structure? +-----------------------------------+------------------------------+ | novmondo@sky.net | WWW/TTT: | | ...what comes around goes away... | http://www.sky.net/~novmondo | +-----------------------------------+------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 17:21:15 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat I don't see how putting myself in the position of 'critic' is messianic. I don't claim to hold a great secrets to the world or to promise heaven on earth. If my critiques make me appear messianic, then I must be hugely popular. Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:33:21 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stuart Quimby Organization: Design Science Toys Subject: Yasuhi's new address Does anyone know Yasushi Kajikawa's new address? His royalty checks are coming back in the mail as undeliverable! TIA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:37:54 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stuart Quimby Organization: Design Science Toys Subject: Re: Self-Expanding spheres The fellow you saw was Chuck Hoberman. Design Science Toys sells a plastic model of his collapsible structures. You can reach us at 800-227-2316/914-756-4221. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 21:14:59 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: World Game Institute Organization: Drexel University Subject: Re: Bucky & WGI on Talk of the Nation Oops, I didn't mean to short change Jaime Snyder of BFI and Jay Baldwin of Whole Earth Review. They, along with Medard were interviewed for an hour on the Science Friday edition of Talk of the Nation. I found out about the broadcast an hour before Medard went down to the studio and didn't get any details. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 00:10:27 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Bucky's flair for publicity Dr. Rick Kirscher wrote (responding to Ted's criticism of Bucky): >. . . I think you've made up a complex reduction of a little guy's best >intentions to devote his life to making the world successful. Bucky didn't >try to convince anyone of anything.. he just put his information out there >and trusted in the integrity of the universe to engage the right people to >what needed to be done at the best possible time. > He didn't use Public Relations tricks, believing that if his ideas were >sound and truly in service to humanity, they would themselves draw >attention.( and the proof is in the pudding!) Bucky did indeed use public relations tricks and engaged in relentless self-promotion. The nude doll in the first Dymaxion model, the white wolfhound story, the coined words, the list of predictions in Nine Chains to the Moon are all small examples of a very intelligent man's efforts to draw attention to himself. In Fuller's case there was a great deal of substance along with the style, but there was a lot of style too. >Perhaps a' cult of personality ' as you claim did form around him. I can't >say, as I have no memory of Bucky until I started reading his work a few >years ago...but I can say that what attracted me most to his ideas are his >sincere desire to help all of humanity be successful doing what only he could >do based on his unique inventory of experiences, and his setting an example >of this for others to follow. In Ted's defense, I would say that I too perceive an element of uncritical promotion of Bucky Fuller 'the image' which often tends to devalue the real content of his work. Something like a cult of personality. As has been pointed out, Fuller to his endless credit discouraged such misplaced hero-worship and encouraged people to think through their own solutions instead of just accepting whatever Fuller said. >Bucky is guilty of being a visionary, of devoting >himself in service to humanity, in speaking from his honest perceptions about >his own conclusions regarding how best to make humanity successful. He >didn't waste much time opposing other's ideas! The hard thing is to take the >leap of faith that Bucky took. Rick, let me share some of the bluntest criticsm I can make of Fuller. I'm not exactly certain that his declaration of service to humanity, his 'blind date with principle' on the lakefront so dramatically described in 'Inventions' among other places, wasn't a retroactive rationalization of a somewhat bumpy career. I did not know Fuller and I will not presume to guess at his motives. But it appears to me that, up until the failure of the Beech Aircraft project in Wichita, Fuller was every inch the industrialist and perfectly willing to profit from the Ford-ization of the housing industry. If there is any pre-war evidence of his declaration of service to humanity, please somebody point me to it, and I'll eat my words. I'd be happy to. Fuller was also no scientist, at least not in the traditional sense. His (quite understandable) unwillingness to get dragged down by negative-minded sorts of questions -- he would evidently simply change the subject -- made it hard for traditional engineers and mathematicians to get ahold of his arguments. In this way it's my opinion that Ted has a point when we criticizes Fuller for creating a sort of self-sufficient, self-referential, my-way-or-the-highway worldview. That said -- I don't think any of us yet realize just how brilliant the man was. These two points are really minor carps which only prove that Fuller was human. The depth and the breadth of the work he did is simply, literally incredible. My $.02 -- Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 01:09:09 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat spy222@aol.com (Spy 222) wrote: >Dear Kirby, >I don't mean to condem Buckminster Fuller, I mean to point out that he is >not the messiah and to point out that Buckminster Fuller used many messiah >style 'tricks' in order to grip peoples souls, their attention, in order >to propel himself into the spotlight. Well, then I guess we agree. He was not the messiah. Any blind fanaticism among his followers such as you describe will prove more damaging than helpful in trying to implement some of his ideas. Fuller's works do need to be criticized and assessed, not memorized and recited as dogma. Personally, I haven't found as much blind fanaticism or unwillingness to criticize as apparently you have, but that may just reflect the circles we move in. I think you should feel free to use this forum to share your reservations and substantive criticisms of Fuller, but not be surprised or offended when others beg to differ, and offer cogent arguments of their own for doing so (as I recall, you got a bit huffy some months ago and resigned from the list). Kirby Portland, Oregon ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 10:36:37 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: Bucky's flair for publicity > >That said -- I don't think any of us yet realize just how brilliant the >man was. These two points are really minor carps which only prove that >Fuller was human. The depth and the breadth of the work he did is >simply, literally incredible. > >My $.02 -- > >Walt i do not know of any other person with such brillent mind. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 18:42:23 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: GENI in New Scientist Magazine > all this time i thought you lived in america. australia i like to go > to australia. is it easy to get ajob there actully i hate to work > In America and Europe > you have to fight to get a piece of bread + dignity sold. Mohammed: I don't think it is that easy to get a job here. But that is from my viewpoint working in the semi-skilled area of the workforce. I think if you have good qualifications then no problems. I sort of have to struggle for the money and the ego gets a bit of bashing at the main place I work. There is a lot of room here, though and I think it is worth checking out. I am originally from California. in friendship swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 22:11:40 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Some people believe that the Bible is over 5000 years old. I don't know what you meant when you asked me whether or not I "acknowledge what it was used for." If you mean that the Bible has been used as an instrument of repression, then I respond by showing that Buckminster Fuller's works operate the same way. If the Bible creates blind followers, so does Bucky (I have nothing against blind obedience, "I will do and I will hear.") If you mean that the Bible taught morality to the world, then it wasn't all bad, but you can't attribute the samething to Bucky--since he got his values out of the Bible. The point of all this is that Buckminster Fuller's works are far more narrow in scope than something a comprehensive as the Bible. You need to look at the empirical effects of such works. If you're putting Buckminster Fullers works in the same class with things like the Bible, Marxism, Democracy, Republicanism, Wall St., B.A. & PH. D and so on, I have to say that you're not dealing with reality on the same level that the vast majority of humanity is on. These type of things have real effects, World Game does not. Unless of coarse your proposing these things as embryos of major ideologies to come--which I believe you are and Bucky was. When you begin to look at Buckminster Fuller's works as an up and coming ideology, they don't look so benevolent because they are wrought with the same problems as the forementioned ones not to mention the fact his works are loaded with ideologies that some people choose not to live under. To propel Buckminster Fuller's ideas into the world scene as "major league players" you're going to need fanatics. If you can live with that....... Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:17:07 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David F. Watkins" Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Comments: To: Spy 222 In-Reply-To: <3uvb52$lig@newsbf02.news.aol.com> On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, Spy 222 wrote: > ......., but I think his world view, > his vision for humanity, his socialistic cum religious tendencies, are > skewed. > Ted, Could you expand on what you mean by your above statement? I suppose in many respects it is Bucky's view for humanity that I find most appealing. From what reference point do you consider his world view skewed? Dave Watkins ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Jul 1995 23:44:03 -0400 Reply-To: AMKALENAK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: AMKALENAK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Self-Expanding spheres I've been looking for the guys name. I saw an article in DISCOVER magazine this year on him an there was an article on The LEARNING CHANNEL's INVENTION program. His name is Hoberman or Hoestatle or something like that. Sorry I can't remember his name. But will ask a guy at work who has been trying to replicate his work. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 17:14:25 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat In Message Mon, 24 Jul 1995 22:11:40 -0400, Spy 222 writes: >Some people believe that the Bible is over 5000 years old. I don't know >what you meant when you asked me whether or not I "acknowledge what it was >used for." so are you cristian, if so the old religous dialog is over. many people were trying to prove thier religon is better than the other, hear we are talking about how to make more bread and good life. 1/2 of the world is christian and the world is still the same. give the people money, and they leave you alone. it is expermentally true, whenever there is less wealth they will all eat each other. check this out in any city center or train station. if you are tired from your neigbourhood. if that is ideology, i will say i like to be ideological.i have never seen more closed minded person than your avrage christian. >then I respond by showing that Buckminster Fuller's works operate the same way. we dont go to church, remmber Plato, shakspear, we are in the dark and we like to know what is rong with that.spirtuality is dead look at California after 30 years of spirtual movment. I f the Bible creates blind followers, so does Bucky (I have nothing >against blind obedience, "I will do and I will hear.") If you mean that i believe that the man who wrote the true believe is from Poland worked in the dockes of san francisco. i am not so impresed as you are by such a work, sort of second rate breaching. at least fuller made few things. the Bible taught morality to the world, then it wasn't all bad, but you >can't attribute the samething to Bucky--since he got his values out of the >Bible. who would know if the world was less moral, we might be having more fun rather than having this wasp breaching and controling the world. and every one is watching everyone. > The point of all this is that Buckminster Fuller's works are far more >narrow in scope than something a comprehensive as the Bible. what is comprehensive about the bible, there are other books you know. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:04:38 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Seth Itzkan Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Comments: To: Spy 222 Ted, "messianic projection" applies to your projection of Bucky as a messia, not to yourself as being one. >I don't see how putting myself in the position of 'critic' is messianic. >I don't claim to hold a great secrets to the world or to promise heaven on >earth. > >If my critiques make me appear messianic, then I must be hugely popular. >Ted Campbell >New York City > >spy222@alo.com Seth J. Itzkan BBN Educational Technologies Mail Stop 20/6d 150 Cambridge Park Drive Cambridge, MA 02140 sitzkan@bbn.com webmaster@frontdoor.bbn.com 617-873-3163 (v) 617-873-2455 (f) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:29:22 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: geodesic buckminster (fwd) SIFT Netnews writes: > From hotpage.stanford.edu!netnews Sat Jul 15 20:37:03 1995 > Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 20:40:37 -0700 > Message-Id: <9507160340.AA02955@hotpage.Stanford.EDU> > Subject: geodesic buckminster > From: SIFT Netnews > To: joemoore@cruzio.com > MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at cruzio.cru zio.com > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Subscription 1: geodesic buckminster > > Article: comp.graphics.raytracing.15926 > Message-ID: > From: delaques@din.gcg.com (Philip Delaquess) > Subject: Re: [Wanted] Model of a buckyball > Score: 100 > First 20 lines: > In article <1995Jul14.164345.11857@reks.uia.ac.be> maes@sch2.uia.ac.be > (Stefan.Maes) writes: > > to each other. It's often refered to as C-60, but it's official name is > > Buckminster fulerene, named after the place it was first discovered(???). > Nope. Named after Buckminster Fuller, the visionary architect and > inventor of the geodesic dome, which C-60 resembles. > Philip. > -- > Philip Delaquess | Who sews whose socks? Sue sews Sue's socks. > Software Development | Who sees who sew whose new socks, sir? > Genetics Computer Group | You see Sue sew Sue's new socks, sir. > delaques@gcg.com | That's not easy, Mister Fox, sir! > > Article: comp.graphics.raytracing.15929 > Message-ID: <3u6iu8$cbn@access2.digex.net> > From: ncarb@access2.digex.net (blair bostick) > Subject: Re: [Wanted] Model of a buckyball > Score: 100 > First 20 lines: > In article <1995Jul14.164345.11857@reks.uia.ac.be>, > Stefan.Maes wrote: > >Chris Cason (Chris.Cason@oaks.com.au) wrote: > >: > >: what, exactly, is a buckyball ? (I'm kinda curious [:-]) > >: > >Well, this ain't no exact answer. Although I'm a structural chemist/ > >crystallographer, I'm no way an expert at this subject. But to satisfy > >your curiosity, I'll have a go at a more or less decent explanation: > > > >For a long time chemists thought there were only two (stable) forms > >of pure carbon: graphite and diamond. Graphite is build of layers of > >6-membered carbon rings. Diamond is build of tetrahedrons. 'Recently' > >(20 years or so ago) a new form was discovered: 60 carbon atoms attached > >to each other. It's often refered to as C-60, but it's official name is > >Buckminster fulerene, named after the place it was first discovered(???). > It's named after R. Buckminster Fuller, the inventor of the geodesic dome. > bb > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > For help information, send email HotPage Server > with word 'help' in message body netnews@hotpage.stanford.edu > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:46:42 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: geodesic buckminster (fwd) SIFT Netnews writes: > From hotpage.stanford.edu!netnews Mon Jul 17 10:51:02 1995 > Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 10:54:48 -0700 > Message-Id: <9507171754.AA02955@hotpage.Stanford.EDU> > Subject: geodesic buckminster > From: SIFT Netnews > To: joemoore@cruzio.com > MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at cruzio.cru zio.com > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Subscription 1: geodesic buckminster > > Article: comp.graphics.raytracing.15982 > Message-ID: > From: kosten@pc5.xtal.rwth-aachen.de (K. Kosten) > Subject: Re: [Wanted] Model of a buckyball > Score: 100 > First 20 lines: > In article <3u9jmh$1rn@opal.southwind.net> rjones@southwind.net (Russ Jones) writes: > >From: rjones@southwind.net (Russ Jones) > >Subject: Re: [Wanted] Model of a buckyball > >Date: Sat, 15 Jul 1995 23:31:54 GMT > >delaques@din.gcg.com (Philip Delaquess) wrote: > >>In article <1995Jul14.164345.11857@reks.uia.ac.be> maes@sch2.uia.ac.be > >>(Stefan.Maes) writes: > >>> to each other. It's often refered to as C-60, but it's official name is > >>> Buckminster fulerene, named after the place it was first discovered(???) . > >>Nope. Named after Buckminster Fuller, the visionary architect and > >>inventor of the geodesic dome, which C-60 resembles. > >Isn't it Buckminsterfullerium? Or is it just Fullerium? > The official name is indeed buckminsterfullerene. (Names like this should > be prohibited!) > Regards, > Klaus > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Klaus Kosten > Institut fuer Kristallographie > der RWTH > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > For help information, send email HotPage Server > with word 'help' in message body netnews@hotpage.stanford.edu > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:03:50 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat One of the concepts that Bucky made very clear is a distinction between the somewhat entrenched interests of an oligarchical financial power group and the evolution of human society toward a civilization which works for 100% of humanity. In this kind of civilization each of us would be free to follow whatever religious path we choose. His vision, I believe, was to bring the best to all. One of the people I talked to once (B.V., lives in Dallas, TX) who worked with Bucky on and off for a couple of years said that Bucky told him stories of his own spiritual beliefs and belief in immortality. Patrick Alessandra Jr. a.Priori 6524 San Felipe #323 Houston, TX 77057 USA Compuserve Address: 72203,3461. America OnLine: APRIORIPAA Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:10:47 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: World Game Institute Organization: Drexel University Subject: World Game Inst. Workshops Schedule WORLD GAME INSTITUTE WORKSHOPS SCHEDULE 1995-'96 Schedule as of July 21, 1995 We invite you to visit an upcoming event. Contact us for more information. Most events, especially those conducted for colleges and community groups, can be observed or participated in for free. Corporate workshops are often conducted as part of in-house training and are not usually open to the public. World Game Institute Phone: (215) 387-0220 3215 Race Street Fax: (215) 387-3009 Philadelphia, PA 19104-2597 Email: xtm00002@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu World Wide Web: http://www.pacificrim.net/~wginwrep/WorldGame/WGI.html * Environmental Workshop + Diversity Workshop # Interactive Lecture ! Host of a past event July 10 New Jersey Governor's School, Pomona, NJ*! July 10 U of DE Governor's School, Newark, DE! July 11 Motorola, Schaumburg, IL ! July 13-16 GENI, San Diego, CA July 14 Robeson High School, Chicago, IL July 24 U. of North Carolina, Greensboro, NC#! July 26 PA Governor's School, University Park, PA July 27 Junior League of Indianapolis, Indy, IN* Aug. 6 Principals' Center Summer Institute, NJ Aug. 7-11 St. Andrew's Luth. Church, Mahtomedi, MN Aug. 13-15 Presby. Peacemaking Program,HempsteadNY+ Aug. 15 Marietta College, Marietta, OH+ Aug. 23 Rockford College, Rockford, IL ! Aug. 27 Explora Science Center, Albuquerque, NM Aug. 27 Thiel College, Greenville, PA# Aug. 28 Emory & Henry College, Emory, VA Aug. 31 Binghamton University, Binghamton, NY# Sept. 2 Transylvania Univ., Lexington, KY# Sept. 5 Motorola, Singapore ! Sept. 6 IULA World Congress, Hague, Netherlands Sept. 8 Lynchburg College, Lynchburg, VA Sept. 8 Point Pleasant Beach Hgh Sch., Pt. Pl. Bch., NJ Sept. 10 Franklin College, Franklin, IN Sept. 12 U of WI Green Bay, Green Bay, WI Sept. 12 Motorola, Schaumburg, IL ! Sept. 17 Drew University, Madison, NJ+ Sept. 19 Cottey College, Nevada, MO# Sept. 23 Nat'l Lutheran Leader. Conf,Minneapolis,MN ! Sept. 29,30 Pittsburgh Children's Museum, Pittsbgh, PA ! 9/30-10/1 AIESEC UKM, Malaysia Oct 5-7 Johnson, Long & Co., Johnston HS, Austin, TX Oct. 6 Colonia High School, Colonia, NJ* Oct. 10 Motorola, Schaumburg, IL ! Oct. 13,14 Boonsboro Ruritan Club, Lynchburg, VA Oct. 17 IODA Conference, Eilat, Israel Oct. 18 Anacortes High School, Anacortes, WA Oct. 19 We the Peoples 2000, Swarthmore, PA ! Oct. 24 Harrington Park School, Harr. Park, NJ ! Oct. 31 Motorola, Taiwan ! Nov. 2 Park Middle School, Scotch Plains, NJ ! Nov. 3 Terrill Middle School, Scotch Plains, NJ ! Nov. 16 Leadership Kentucky, Elizabethtown, KY ! Nov. 17 U. of Kentucky, Lexington, KY Nov. 17 U. of Texas at Dallas, Richardson, TX Nov. 17 Fieldstone Middle School, Montvale, NJ ! Dec 12,13 Readington Middle School, Readington, NJ ! Jan. 25 Hatboro-Horsham Sr. HS, Horsham, PA March 6 Brookside School, Allendale, NJ ! April 2 North Arlington High Sch., N. Arlington, NJ+! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 16:03:10 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Blaine DAmico Subject: Re: Self-Expanding spheres Comments: To: AMKALENAK In-Reply-To: <3v1pa3$9gv@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Chuck Hoberman. The article in Discover that I have is from March 1992 pp 70-78. On Mon, 24 Jul 1995, AMKALENAK wrote: > I've been looking for the guys name. > I saw an article in DISCOVER magazine this year on him > an there was an article on The LEARNING CHANNEL's INVENTION program. > His name is Hoberman or Hoestatle or something like that. > Sorry I can't remember his name. > But will ask a guy at work who has been trying to replicate his work. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 17:32:55 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Morrison Subject: unsubscribe Michael Morrison I don't know if this is the way to get off of theis mailing list but if it is take me off. If it isn;t please tell me a wa y to. unsubscribe michael morrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 19:25:21 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Ted: Kirby again. >I don't see how putting myself in the position of 'critic' is messianic. >I don't claim to hold a great secrets to the world or to promise heaven on >earth. When Seth said: "Excellent write up Ted, but don't blame Bucky for your own messianic projections and subsequent let down", I don't think he meant you were projecting yourself as messianic, but putting on Bucky your projection that Bucky wanted to be seen as a messiah -- but you probably realized this at the time and was just having some fun with Seth's grammar. According to my reading, Fuller never promised a heaven on earth, nor even higher living standards. In his view, we merely had the option to attain the latter, and it was not a foregone conclusion that we would. The "or oblivion" part doesn't seem all that hyperbolic, given the nuclear capabilities etc. -- I think a lot of people that never heard of Fuller fear that post-holocaust hellish world (of the "Road Warrior" movies for example) that would constitute an "oblivion" relative to what we might have attained (a relative "utopia"). Most people think of 'heaven' as a state of eternal bliss or something (though Mark Twain wondered how 'eternal bliss' would be bearable) but in Fuller's "utopia" we'd still be mortals, and there'd still be suffering -- just not the suffering of starvation or exposure to the elements perhaps; his attention was on the physical artifacts necessary to house and clothe, not so much the spiritual well-being of humans, which is usually the focus of the stereotypical messiah. He felt humans would behave more benignly if their basic needs were taken care of, but that would be a side-result of the focus on artifacts and inventions. He was more a "Leonardo type" or at most a "Great Pirate" in the terms of his own storytelling vocabulary. I don't think he ever used the word "messiah". I think Fuller did feel he was doing important, critical work on behalf of humanity, and this kept him energized and intense about his message. He was/is a famous guy (especially in the later part of his life) with lots of fans around the world -- no doubt about that. But so are lots of people celebrated, and so have lots of people done important, critical work on behalf of humanity. I think he felt prototypical: his lifestyle, of working with a big picture and grand strategy in mind, should/could be more characteristic of everyone's lifestyle in the near future, and his success at living this way seemed an argument that humans in general were designed to be local problem solvers, more than simply breadwinners. But you've read all the books so really I don't need to go on about how Fuller conceptualized his own role in history (trimtab etc.) -- you already know that stuff. So, given that we share the same library, we should get to the meat of your criticisms, where you explain and defend your views. So far, I only get a vague sense of what you most distrust about the Fuller opus. True, Fuller wrote about his sense of a great spirit (nonanthro intelligence pervading Universe) and you're absolutely right: that's old hat, even among the scientific community -- lots and lots of scientifically minded individuals have expressed their faith in an ordered, intelligent Universe where humanity is caught up in some teleologic scenario (and many, e.g. Stephan Jay Gould, have expressed their opposite feeling, that humanity arose in chance fashion and that evolution never "intended" us in any sense -- it's an ancient debate that neither started nor ended with Fuller). >I don't mean to condem Buckminster Fuller, I mean to point out that >he is not the messiah and to point out that Buckminster Fuller used >many messiah style 'tricks' in order to grip peoples souls, their attention, >in order to propel himself into the spotlight. You say you're not condemning Fuller, but in the same sentence accuse him of using 'tricks' to suck people into a state of belief for cynical motives. That sounds rather condemning to me. Where do you draw the line in your own mind between Fuller's responsibility for misleading others, and the gullibility, naivete, wishful thinking, and tendencies towards fanaticism in those others? To me, it still sounds like you're blaming Fuller for your own past excesses. Are we ever going to the part where Ted Campbell takes some personal responsiblity? Kirby ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:31:19 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: OFFLINE Hi Everyone, I think I am back online! I upgraded my operating system but then my telecommunication software wouldn't work properly. I think I was suffering withdrawal symptoms being cut off for the last 13 days. It might take me a day or two to catch up with all my e-mail (117 messages!). Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 20:09:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Bucky's flair for publicity >Dr. Rick Kirscher wrote (responding to Ted's criticism of Bucky): >> He didn't use Public Relations tricks, believing that if his ideas were >>sound and truly in service to humanity, they would themselves draw >>attention.( and the proof is in the pudding!) Walt Lockley wrote: >Bucky did indeed use public relations tricks and engaged in relentless >self-promotion. The nude doll in the first Dymaxion model, the white >wolfhound story, the coined words, the list of predictions in Nine Chains >to the Moon are all small examples of a very intelligent man's efforts >to draw attention to himself. In Fuller's case there was a great deal of >substance along with the style, but there was a lot of style too. I agree that Bucky had a lot of style and public relations savvy. He also made it a self-discipline not to employ a public relations firm. I believe some radio station developed "Dymaxion" as a PR move, and Bucky adopted this. The nude "barbie doll" went with Fuller's contention that his houses would be so comfortable that future generations would get used to living in them without clothing. We can look at that as interest-grabbing PR too, why not? >Rick, let me share some of the bluntest criticsm I can make of Fuller. >I'm not exactly certain that his declaration of service to humanity, >his 'blind date with principle' on the lakefront so dramatically described >in 'Inventions' among other places, wasn't a retroactive rationalization >of a somewhat bumpy career. I did not know Fuller and I will not presume to >guess at his motives. But it appears to me that, up until the failure of >the Beech Aircraft project in Wichita, Fuller was every inch the >industrialist and perfectly willing to profit from the Ford-ization of >the housing industry. If there is any pre-war evidence of his declaration >of service to humanity, please somebody point me to it, and I'll eat my >words. I'd be happy to. This is worth exploring further I suppose, though profiting and working for humanity need not be seen as mutually exclusive -- I think Fuller has writings which pre-date the Beech experience where he strongly questions the whole mortgage method of buying housing etc.; he was about challenging the institutions as much as wanting to industrialize housing, and I think this was a common theme. Something of a radical in the Village, before he started "dressing like a banker". >Fuller was also no scientist, at least not in the traditional sense. >His (quite understandable) unwillingness to get dragged down by >negative-minded sorts of questions -- he would evidently simply change >the subject -- made it hard for traditional engineers and mathematicians >to get ahold of his arguments. In this way it's my opinion that Ted has >a point when we criticizes Fuller for creating a sort of self-sufficient, >self-referential, my-way-or-the-highway worldview. This is also worth getting into in more depth. Of course in print, you can't "change the subject" so easily. Whatever he had to say of merit or utility to the scientific and engineering communities is now reviewable in published (and archival) format. The domes obviously work. Synergetics really needs to be looked at in detail. Strong criticism would be as helpful as exposition and clarification in my estimation -- both better than outright neglect, which is mostly what we get from academia today. >My $.02 -- Good post, Walt. Thanks Kirby ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 16:22:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Cook Subject: My experience with Bucky Fuller First off, thanks Kirby for your ground view of the BFcentennial events in San Diego. I had wanted to go, meet new people and maybe reunion with fellow design scientist co-workers from the 70s but decided that it did not really fit into what I am presently doing. Your narrative descriptions, however, were almost like being there. And I did appreciate learning about what happened. The inevitable conflicts and arguments you described seemed familiar to issues which emerged in the 1974, '75 and '76 World Game Workshops. Also, thanks, Seth for your posting on the more quiet, meditative memorial you helped arrange in Boston. Since I too was profoundly stimulated by Bucky's life and work and indeed "followed" his lead in the areas of geometry, patenting inventions, promoting World Game, and extending his pattern-deduced historical analyses, I've been reading with interest the recent thread reflecting on Bucky's life impact, intentions, and motivations. I also faced a personal crisis in the mid- 70s which was partly psycho-developmental and partly how to define and achieve my own work, philosophy and healthy functioning, apart from the World Game mind set, working with the Earth MD gang headed by Medard and Howie Brown. My introduction to BF's work was through a very special teacher who had been one of his students at Black Mountain College in the late forties. My architect father also mentioned him to me in the sixties, BF being on the cover of TIME in 1964 and my father having heard him lecture at UMichigan in the early 50's. The person who indirectly heIped me the most in pschologically unraveling myself from my six-year absorption in BF, was Ed Schlossberg an early World Game organizer (NY-1969) who introduced me to the notion of competing theories, cognitive frameworks, self-referential systems, and the value of constant questioning and observation. Ed's understanding and descriptions of Gregory Bateson's work did the trick in helping me out of the guru's trap. Now, I can look back and truly appreciate Bucky again and again reflect in awe of him or anyone for that matter who lives their life with such untiring intensity to do "great works". Working directly with BF, one sensed the almost mystical core of his actual presence and dynamism even though he may have been careless with the details of how he actually accomplished his life's work. I refer you all to his 1936 (Nine Chains) description and differentiation of mind and brain. Brain deals with special cases, mind is the control room where the phantom captain appears and reviews special cases in order to apprehend generalized principles. And the identity of the phantom captain is the same in all minds..................... The details of Bucky's death are also important to keep in mind. He died of a heart attack while visiting his loyal companion and wife who was unconscious in the hospital and who also died shortly after. I heard a report from a crediable source several years ago that Bucky continued to "channel" information and references to his texts, even after death. Now discuss! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 20:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: My experience with Bucky Fuller > I heard a report from a crediable source several years ago that Bucky continued >to "channel" information and references to his texts, even after death. Now >discuss! According to the research I have done a "channelled" writting can actually be from many different types of sources -- some good but some intent on deception. The criteria to determine this seems to be whether or not the so-called channeller is conscious or unconscious. If the person is conscious (awake with eyes open) then it generally would be good. If the channeller is unconscious (eyes-closed) with some entity using the body then definitely not good (despite apparent good information). I believe that truth itself is its own authority (in the Gospels and in the Bhagavad Gita there is enough for many lives) and any spiritual truth can be demonstrated as such through practical living by each of us. "... and the greatest of these is Love." Patrick Alessandra Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 00:43:29 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: ANDREW HERMETZ Organization: Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio 45435 Subject: Info on New Book by Gabel In my wonderings on the Web, I found a site for one of my favorite authors (and Bucky Fan), Robert Anton Wilson. There he had several things on Bucky and an interview/article about World Game & Medard Gabel. In it, he mentions _Energy, Earth, & Everyone_, _Ho-Ping:..._, & a book I'd never heard of called _Design Science Primer_. Does anybody have any info on this book or is it even out yet. I hesitate to bother Mr. Gabel until I checked with all the "Usual Suspects". Any help would be appreciated. Andy Hermetz s009aeh@discover.wright.edu "Mommy, Timmy broke my .sig!" "Disclaimers! We don't need no stinkin' disclaimers!" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Jul 1995 22:49:39 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Dr. Rick Kirschner" Subject: Re: My experience with Bucky Fuller I'm not certain this was posted, so I'm trying again and ask your forbearance. I've been reading Ted's (spy222@aol.com) critique of Bucky, and thought I'd respond. Dear Ted You say Bucky used messiah 'style' tricks in order to grip peoples' souls. What in the world are messiah 'style' tricks? I'd like to see a book on that! Until I do, I think you've made up a complex reduction of a little guy's best intentions to devote his life to making the world successful. Bucky didn't try to convince anyone of anything.. he just put his information out there and trusted in the integrity of the universe to engage the right people to what needed to be done at the best possible time. He didn't use Public Relations tricks, believing that if his ideas were sound and truly in service to humanity, they would themselves draw attention.( and the proof is in the pudding!) Perhaps a' cult of personality ' as you claim did form around him. I can't say, as I have no memory of Bucky until I started reading his work a few years ago...but I can say that what attracted me most to his ideas are his sincere desire to help all of humanity be successful doing what only he could do based on his unique inventory of experiences, and his setting an example of this for others to follow. >Most of the reactions I receive for my critiques of Buckminster Fuller show that his followers are fanatics, true believers.< Excuse me, but considering the nature of reality, you're imposing your own subjectivity onto an objective field. In other words, (and as the Bible says ...) As you believe, so shall it be. You believe his 'followers' are fanatics, and then look for evidence, ignoring anything that would contradict the conclusion you've already formed. >I think his world view, his vision for humanity, his socialistic cum religious tendencies, are skewed.< Perhaps. But then, so are yours. Bucky never sought to impose is world view, but rather, to act on it. He encouraged others to do the same with their own views, believing (or so I believe) that humanity would find the way to their future not in following Bucky, but in having integrity with themselves. It is easy to tear down the work of someone like Bucky. It is easy to justify ignorance, division, polarization, and to defend doing things the way they've always been done. Bucky is guilty of being a visionary, of devoting himself in service to humanity, in speaking from his honest perceptions about his own conclusions regarding how best to make humanity successful. He didn't waste much time opposing other's ideas! The hard thing is to take the leap of faith that Bucky took. All the best, Rick *************************************************************** Buckminster Fuller said "If humanity does not opt for integrity, we are through completely. It is absolutely touch and go. Each one of us could make the difference." Dr.Rick Kirschner Co-Owner, Creative Director R&R Productions ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:34:28 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: World Game Inst. Workshops Schedule > WORLD GAME INSTITUTE WORKSHOPS SCHEDULE > 1995-'96 Schedule as of July 21, 1995 > >We invite you to visit an upcoming event. Contact us for more information. >Most events, especially those conducted for colleges and community groups, >can be observed or participated in for free. Corporate workshops are often >Sept. 6 IULA World Congress, Hague, Netherlands can you give some more information: adress,time, ect. i would like to make advertisment for the event, is that ok. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:46:47 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Heeney Subject: Re: Info on New Book by Gabel >never heard of called _Design Science Primer_. > Does anybody have any info on this book or is it even out yet. I >hesitate to bother Mr. Gabel until I checked with all the "Usual Suspects". Privately published by Earth Metabollic Design in July 1976 and produced under a grant from the Office of Environmental Education: Department of Health, Education and Welfare. If anyone's got some to sell, my guess is it would be the World Game Institute. David Heeney IndEco Strategic Consulting Inc. Visit our WWW site at www.io.org/~heeney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:08:59 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Douglas B. Holmes" Subject: Re: Info on New Book by Gabel Andy, You wrote: "& a book I'd never heard of called _Design Science Primer_. Does anybody have any info on this book or is it even out yet." * My copy of "Environmental Design Science Primer," by Howard Brown, Robert Cook and Medard Gabel, published by Advocate Press, Inc., second edition, was published in June, 1978. I assume it is long out of print. 116 pages. Silver colored softcover, 8.5x11 inches, landscape format. Doug Holmes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:33:00 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Seth Itzkan Subject: Religious/Spiritual beliefs I'd like to any references to writings of Bucky's concerning these matters. > >One of the people I talked to once (B.V., lives in Dallas, TX) who worked >with Bucky on and off for a couple of years said that Bucky told him stories >of his own spiritual beliefs and belief in immortality. > >Patrick Alessandra Jr. >a.Priori >6524 San Felipe #323 > Houston, TX 77057 USA >Compuserve Address: 72203,3461. >America OnLine: APRIORIPAA >Email: APRIORIPAA@aol.com Seth J. Itzkan BBN Educational Technologies Mail Stop 20/6d 150 Cambridge Park Drive Cambridge, MA 02140 sitzkan@bbn.com webmaster@frontdoor.bbn.com 617-873-3163 (v) 617-873-2455 (f) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 08:13:51 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Cook Subject: Re: Experiences with Bucky/Design Science Primer Actually Patrick, Marilyn Ferguson, creator of the Mind/Brain Bulletin, author of the Aquarian Conspiracy and friend of Buckys, told me two years ago of the case of a friend of hers who channeled Bucky in which he refered her to a page in Critical Path. This friend was a person unfamiliar with his work and writings. In going through some old files recently, I happened on a limited-circulation, newsletter called "Good News" that Ed Schlossberg distributed back in 1974. In it Ed published a previously unpublished and little known chapter from Nine Chains to the Moons titled, "From Bible to Babble to Bible". It is very esoteric (and understanable why it wasn't published) yet reveals BF's journey into fundamental questions. If anyone is interested in this contact me at the addresses below: Andy, the "Design Science Primer" you refer to was assembled in two xerox versions as a resource and supplemental material in the World Game Workshop participant packets in 1974 and 1975. I led a grant funded project at Earth MD to develop a "fuller" text on design science, Bucky's conceptual tools, a description of the steps of a design science planning process from problem statement to taking the initiative, and a reference section including bibliography. This text, first printed in 1976 and later again by Meddie, was titled "Environmental Design Science Primer." Some libraries have it in their collections. If anyone is interested in this contact me at: bcook@pimacc.pima.edu or Robert Cook P.O. Box 41144 Tucson AZ 85717 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 09:09:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Dr. Rick Kirschner" Subject: Re: Bucky's flair for publicity Walt, in response to the following: >Bucky did indeed use public relations tricks and engaged in relentless >self-promotion. The nude doll in the first Dymaxion model, the white >wolfhound story, the coined words, the list of predictions in Nine Chains >to the Moon are all small examples of a very intelligent man's efforts >to draw attention to himself. In Fuller's case there was a great deal of >substance along with the style, but there was a lot of style too. **I suppose our difference is in our definitions of words. I am heavily dependant on P.R. for my own business, and from my point of view, Bucky may have had style but that is certainly no substitute for an organized P.R. campaign. Bucky's ideas are, in many cases, so compelling, and his way of sharing them so intriguing, that it is no wonder to me that people were fascinated by him and drawn in by their desire to make sense of him. In addition, focusing on something as universally relevant as 'a world that works for everyone' gave him connecting points with virtually everyone with whom he came in contact. >Rick, let me share some of the bluntest criticsm I can make of Fuller. >I'm not exactly certain that his declaration of service to humanity, >his 'blind date with principle' on the lakefront so dramatically described >in 'Inventions' among other places, wasn't a retroactive rationalization >of a somewhat bumpy career. As someone who has had a similar experience of total self-doubt and and the feeling of having failed in life which prompted me to dramatically change course and commitments, I find Bucky's declaration and description to be totally credible. In fact, it so moved me that I began to explore his work as a result. It is easy to sit back and decide the motives of people who can no longer speak in their own defense. The fact remains that this odd little guy's prolific and determined contributions to the betterment of humanity through such simple concepts as using what we know as leverage to make a difference and recognizing ourselves as unique inventories that can be placed in service to all, plus his more complex models for housing, trending, etc., consitute for me the strongest evidence of his sincerity. The proof is in the pudding as it were. I can think of very few people in the course of human history who have given so much to all of humanity. Have you? I haven't, and I work hard at making my contributions count! >I did not know Fuller and I will not presume to >guess at his motives. But it appears to me that, up until the failure of >the Beech Aircraft project in Wichita, Fuller was every inch the >industrialist and perfectly willing to profit from the Ford-ization of >the housing industry. If there is any pre-war evidence of his declaration >of service to humanity, please somebody point me to it, and I'll eat my >words. I'd be happy to. In my own life, some time always passes between my breatkthroughs and their manifestation in the form of writing or products and programs or what have you. Why do you have to have pre-war evidence of his declaration? What is it about Bucky that you find so ...well, so doubtful or disturbing, as to cast him in such a light? I know, I know, it is important to question authority, to challenge assumptions, etc. But to what end? I apologize if I have misunderstood your posting and that of Ted Campbell, but it seems to me that your characterizations of a great man add very little to the betterment of humanity on our troubled and often unprincipled planet. All the best, Rick- ******************************** Buckminster Fuller said "If humanity does not opt for integrity, we are through completely. It is absolutely touch and go. Each one of us could make the difference." Dr.Rick Kirschner Co-Owner, Creative Director R&R Productions ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 12:52:41 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Galen Staengl Organization: uva Subject: Re: Synergetic Atomic Model Steven, I am very much interested in a 3-d model that explains quantum physics. I'm studying chemical engineering, so most of my quantum mechanics has been on an atomic and molecular level. Throughout my study I have been looking for ways to relate q.m. to synergetics, so I would be very interested in any succes you have had. One thing I have been wondering about is the possibility that the de Broglie "standing wave" harmonics that model electronic orbitals could be polyhedra whose vertecies make up the nodes of the standing waves. Do you have any insight into this? How does one model a spherical wave anyway? Galen Staengl gs5b@virginia.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:20:32 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chuck Stoffregen Subject: Classes I am considering teaching a class in geodesic domes. Does anyone have a curriculum guide, lesson plans or class description that I might view to get an idea of what sequence I should proceed. Chuck Stoffregen Computer Teacher Madison Area Technical College cas1276@madison.tec.wi.us Fax (608) 246-6880 Synergy - Behavior of whole systems unpredicted by the behavior of their parts taken seperately. R.B. Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:44:20 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Response, Bucky's flair for publicity. . . ----------------------------- Rick, thanks for your thoughtful reply. It has really given me pause this afternoon, and after some thinking, here goes: First, let me put my criticism of Fuller into context. I'll say it again: I don't think any of us here have fully recognized the importance of his work, and we're among the ones who have studied it most closely. I have no desire to attack or degrade anyone, certainly not Bucky nor anyone here. And not you. :-) We have ample evidence that Bucky was human and that's not what we're talking about either. I guess whether or not Bucky's 'blind date with principle' was retroactive or not has some slight bearing on our view of the man -- my personal belief is that Bucky like so many other great men was capable of reinterpreting his own history -- but in the last analysis it makes very little difference. The proof, as you said, is in the pudding. He contributed quite a great deal. I find nothing about Buckminster Fuller 'doubtful or disturbing' to use your words. I am dubious about those who are willing to accept his total output uncritically. Is it heresy to say that Fuller might have made a boo-boo once in a while? Hope no. Those who turn to Fuller as a hero or messiah, as the Elvis of Engineering, are looking in the wrong place. Fuller himself said so many times. Rick, your last sentence is the one that disturbs me. ". . . it seems to me that your characterizations of a great man add very little to the betterment of humanity on our troubled and often unprincipled planet." Well. Fuller offered us alternatives. An alternative prototype perfectable highly efficient car, an alternative prototype house, an alternative highly efficient way of enclosing space, the glimmerings of an alternative structural understanding called tensegrity, lastly and maybe most significantly an alternative geometry. But he DIDN'T tell us how to get from here to THERE. And he didn't submit himself to the traditional methods of scientific inquiry. If Fuller's work is ever going to have any large-scale practical value it has to be subject to constructive criticsm on a scientific basis. This is the essential puzzle of Fuller's legacy to us. If you find Fuller's committment to humanity inspiring and moving, that's certainly valid. Mis-characterizing great men adds very little to the betterment of mankind, I agree. I'm sure you'll agree that treating Fuller as an infallible, visionary figurehead adds even less. Best regards, (By the way, are you involved in psychological consulting? Videos?) Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 17:04:43 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Experiences with Bucky/Design Science Primer >Actually Patrick, Marilyn Ferguson, creator of the Mind/Brain Bulletin, author >of the Aquarian Conspiracy and friend of Buckys, told me two years ago of the >case of a friend of hers who channeled Bucky in which he refered her to a page >in Critical Path. This friend was a person unfamiliar with his work and >writings. Any fakir (like those in India) can read a book and give a page number. Here are some previous posts on the whole channelling thing: According to the research I have done a "channelled" writting can actually be from many different types of sources -- some good but some intent on deception. The criteria to determine this seems to be whether or not the so-called channeller is conscious or unconscious. If the person is conscious (awake with eyes open) then it generally would be good. If the channeller is unconscious (eyes-closed) with some entity using the body then definitely not good (despite apparent good information). I believe that truth itself is its own authority (in the Gospels and in the Bhagavad Gita there is enough for many lives) and any spiritual truth can be demonstrated as such through practical living by each of us. In each of us there is a higher spiritual self (the Christ consciousness, Divine Angel, etc.) and, accordingly, our spiritual evolution is to come closer and eventually be one with that higher self in full consciousness. The unconscious rendering of our bodies (as in channelling) for the use of other entities separates us from this spiritual evolution -- this is one of the reasons that such possession is a bad thing. Any true spiritual being, living on spiritual planes, communicates with us through our spiritual self in full consciousness. The use of someone's unconscious body by another entity is always being done on some lower level and thus (although those involved may believe that they are doing the right thing) there is no access by the person to spiritual information. Also, unconscious body possession sets up a very unhealthy chemical vibration in the brain cells which usually leads to some form of debility. The maxim says "The eyes are the window to the soul", and someone who refuses to make eye-contact should not be trusted (like during unconscious body possession) -- this is as universal and as old a truth as there is. If someone wants to charge you money to give you spiritual information and then avoids looking at you then hmmm..... Channeling in relation to true spiritual work simply means being a conduit through which the Love of God can flow. True channeling is completely different from the lower mediumship which is unfortunately (because it is physically unhealthy) all too common today. No spiritual individual ever channels via mediumship or unconscious body possession nor do they make any claims as to self-importance and exclusiveness nor charge any money to see channeling. There can be cases of overshadowing and conscious cooperation through telepathy but never are any self-promoting claims put forth as to this and all that would be noticed by those watching would be that the writer or speaker seems to be radiating greater love and wisdom. "The truth shall set you free." "... and the greatest of these is Love." Peace, Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Jul 1995 18:12:15 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Dr. Rick Kirschner" Subject: Re: Response, Bucky's flair for publicity. . . Hello Walt, Here's my response... You said: >>>First, let me put my criticism of Fuller into context. I'll say it again: I don't think any of us here have fully recognized the importance of his work, and we're among the ones who have studied it most closely. I have no desire to attack or degrade anyone, certainly not Bucky nor anyone here. And not you. :-) Thank you. Same goes for me....(Whew, wouldn't that be awful if we were reduced to slinging excrement from territory to territory on the Bucky board?) >>>We have ample evidence that Bucky was human and that's not what we're talking about either. I guess whether or not Bucky's 'blind date with principle' was retroactive or not has some slight bearing on our view of the man -- ...-- but in the last analysis it makes very little difference. The proof, as you said, is in the pudding. He contributed quite a great deal.<<< And continues to do so. I'm a recent arrival in Bucky's domain. And though I was a successful speaker with plenty of material before I ever read anything of his, I now find an excuse to talk about him in every speech I give...so that through me, he continues to contribute to the lives of thousands more people... >>>I find nothing about Buckminster Fuller 'doubtful or disturbing' to use your words. I am dubious about those who are willing to accept his total output uncritically. Is it heresy to say that Fuller might have made a boo-boo once in a while? Of course not. He did not claim infallibility, and to project such an expectation on him (or anyone, for that matter) would be setting him up for a fall in the projector's mind! >>>Rick, your last sentence is the one that disturbs me. ". . . it seems to me that your characterizations of a great man add very little to the betterment of humanity on our troubled and often unprincipled planet." Well. Fuller offered us alternatives. An alternative prototype perfectable highly efficient car, an alternative prototype house, an alternative highly efficient way of enclosing space, the glimmerings of an alternative structural understanding called tensegrity, lastly and maybe most significantly an alternative geometry. But he DIDN'T tell us how to get from here to THERE. And he didn't submit himself to the traditional methods of scientific inquiry.<<< Nor likely, could he! My original training is in Naturopathic medicine, a holistic approach to health care based on the idea of preventing disease and restoring health. It is finally catching on, but you may have no idea how hard it has been to get funding for research, to publish what research gets done, and to find a way to implement what we know to be so for the improvement of the American health care system (an oxymoron if ever there was one!) That's because Naturopathy is predicated on a different paradigm than the operative base of the existing power structure, which has everything to lose by a paradigm shift. Ergo, Naturopathy has had to trust in the inherent potential of our observations (the diet recommended by the American Cancer Society and American Heart Association was recommended by Naturopaths over 50 years ago!... when the newspapers are full of reports on the benefits of this or that nutrient, most recently folic acid, I assure you that you'll find it referenced in Naturopathic literature dating back many years.) >>>If Fuller's work is ever going to have any large-scale practical value it has to be subject to constructive criticsm on a scientific basis. This is the essential puzzle of Fuller's legacy to us. << Here, Here! I wholeheartedly agree with your statement! It's the real meaning of the integrity of the universe and the power of individual initiative...if we don't do this for ourselves, it remains the work of one man and fails to be owned by the rest of us!!! >>Mis-characterizing great men adds very little to the betterment of mankind, I agree. I'm sure you'll agree that treating Fuller as an infallible, visionary figurehead adds even less.<<< I'm right there with you on this as well! But questioning his declaration of principle somehow fails to fulfill, at least for me, your intent of subjecting his work to constructive criticism, particularly when there are no such proofs and only opinion and conjecture available as tools ... Now I have a confession to make, Walt. I got confused about who was saying what when I responded to that last posting, and most of my response was based on the way I perceived Ted to be trying to demean Bucky for no apparent reason! I apologize if anything I said implied that you were a mean spirited unreasonable soul out to keep the world a house divided! You obviously are a decent soul seeking to bridge the gap from what Bucky said to what is truly possible, work for which I am grateful! All the best, Rick PS >>>>(By the way, are you involved in psychological consulting? Videos?)<<< I used to do quite a bit of counseling in my practice, and got some remarkable results, before I went full time with speaking. I wound up becoming something of an authority on the subject of difficult people, of all things, and I coauthored a best selling audio and video on this subject, and a recent book from McGraw Hill 'Dealing With People You Can't Stand: How To Bring Out The Best In People At Their Worst... And you are doing an excellent job of accomplishing that with me, if I may complement you for your response to my response, etc. ******************************** Buckminster Fuller said "If humanity does not opt for integrity, we are through completely. It is absolutely touch and go. Each one of us could make the difference." Dr.Rick Kirschner Co-Owner, Creative Director R&R Productions ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:40:38 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Earth the moon is 5 dgree skewed from the earth sun planevertexia. in centrfugul machine man can tolerate even10 gravity because the acceleration is at 90 degrees to his spine it does not drain the blood from the brain. few things i just read. till the age of discoveries the people in mideterranian still blieved that the dry area is the large portion of the earth. if you combine that with stonheng orintation to the south the center i think is directed to sun in time of summer solictes sorry for spelling, and if you can imagine that all the alivators in the world have the out to go out to higher floors and in to go to in floors this may give more feeling for the eath geodesicisty. geodesic mind compine with geodesic facts. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 11:40:41 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: 360 degrees >Babylonians took the 360 days of the year as measurment of the circle >360 degree. >of course there is about 4 days missing. in ancient geometry they thought > that the path ofthe sun around the earth is a circle. >did they intentionaly throw the 4 as being fraction. >4 days x 24 hours = aproximatly 100 hour x 60,000 mile per hour of earth >speed around the sun = 6 million miles >that will bring the earth circle to eclips shape. > > may be some one can state the above better. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 09:10:51 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leo Elliott Subject: the religion of Buckism (fwd) Comments: cc: Jim McNelly , Julio Edwards , Dick Prince ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 27 Jul 95 09:05:41 EDT From: homeboy Subject: the religion of Buckism Buxians, As to whether Bucky's rendition of his encounter on Lake Michigan in 1927, hearing voices ("the significance of you will forever remain obscure... you do not belong to you"), etc. was an apocryphal invention of a messianic figure bent on recasting his own story in mythic proportions, or simply the poetic reflections of a sad man revealing the nature of his utter distress on the recent loss of a child, career collapse, etc. -- or somewhere in between -- this may lead more into literary criticism of Fuller's opus, than historic or scientific. Since, if I recall correctly, Bucky used to advise a daily re-inventorying of one's beliefs, opinions, etc. (to the point where, I believe, he spoke of how he would say the Lord's Prayer daily, but never the same way twice), I find such apocryphal historiography/autobiography to be not out of character for what I perceive to be the man and his program. I share with other posters the experience of having adopted Bucky as my pet guru for a number of years, and also to having fallen prey to the associated messianic thinking which goes along, imo, with the adoption of a revealed gospel, be it scientific-technologic or religious, or anywhere in between. "_Why_ haven't others seen the light?" and "_When_ will they learn?" were questions I carried around, no fault of Bucky, for a number of years. His "faith", if I were to call it such, was something to the effect that "a truth once revealed, can never be repealed." Now it is obvious to me that while Bucky may have felt himself to have been the recipient of some "special" information, or to have beheld some pattern-integrities that had always been around but never-previously proclaimed in technical artifacts, I don't think Bucky could be safely classified in the "normal" taxonomy of religious thinkers/leaders, for a number of reasons. First of all, if I read Bucky's "gospel" correctly, it was that you never really accomplish anything by trying to change folks' minds or hearts or whatever it is that spiritual uplifters and religious orators seek to change with their "good news" -- rather did Bucky believe that if you built a better bridge, or house, or car, it's utility would become self-evident (over time), and that this would be enough of a contribution to the uplift. Time to move on to the next project. This leads to what I recall as Bucky's "three rules for success" in the universe: 1) to do the work that needs to be done, 2) to do the work that nobody else is doing, and 3) when somebody else comes along who says they can do it better, let them, and move on to the next project. (All this is rough paraphrase, my own efforts at reinventorying my reading of Bucky's works during my geodesic-messianic period!). This tolerance for competition, even the encouragement of error-seeking, contrasts sharply with the attitudes of those religionists who seem stuck on some particular version of evil-in-the-world-which-needs-stamping-out. I have on my wall a letter from Bucky in 1983, dated just a few months before he died, thanking me for the "welcome advice of errors" which I had found in an early printing of his work with Robert Marks (?) (large size hardback, maybe titled "Buckminster Fuller: An Autobiographical Monolog Scenario", but don't quote me on that as the book is at home and I'm not), wherein Bucky's standard position of the universe as being based on "continuous tension, discontinuous compression" had been somehow transposed into "continuous compression, discontinuous tension" -- anyhow, my point being how many defenders/supporters of the various revealed/channelled texts now floating about this spaceship have you seen/heard of lately who respond with a thank you for such "welcome advice of errors" when confronted with some such typographical error, or worse yet, some error even more incriminating of the supposedly celestial source-of-transmission? So I for one would be very interested in seeing Robert Cook's files on Bucky's "unrevealed" religious beliefs ("From Bible to Babble to Bible"); I'm not sure how Bucky would be classified by the traditional schools of philosophy, perhaps somewhere between "pragmatist" and "techno-mystic", but in any case, having disabused myself some years ago of the need for any sort of revealed religion, I can say that I still find Bucky's biography (as self-promoted as it may or may not have been) and lifework to be as refreshing and inspiring as that of any thinker/inventor/poet of my acquaintance in the Western tradition. Did Bucky _really_ hear voices when he was at the edge of Lake Michigan in 1927? Is what he reported what they _really_ said (if there were any voices at all)? Does it make a difference? Well, I suppose if Bucky had claimed that the voices told him about the racial history of the Polynesians, or the Life of Jesus or some other Great Pirate, and he had subsequently propounded a series of books based on these revelations, then yes, it would make a difference. But in point of fact, whatever happened with Bucky on the edge of Lake Michigan in 1927, he did _not_ leap into the water, (for whatever reasons), and his subsequent inventions _do_ hold water, and Bucky never claimed any special source-status for any of his ideas or inventions, other than their being the results of what any conscientious observer/investigator could come up with. Domes and Buckyballs, however these artifacts came to show up in Bucky's mind, do work. To my knowledge, Bucky never claimed to have had any sort of special visions or revelations to which he credited any sort of special message from some philanthropic celestial architect -- rather did he credit his ideas and invetions to the simple process of trying to account for as many of the crewmembers and as much of the phenomena of our local universe as he could, and never being afraid to abandon an outmoded idea or concept once it was shown that it didn't work. However, having only heard Bucky live one time in my life, (but having listened to many hours of his voice on tape), I must say that if there was ever an individual whom I would suspect of being in some sort of genuine contact with extra-terrestrial sources of intelligence, it would be Mr. Fuller. pensees du jour, Leo Elliott Charlottesville, VA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 10:14:20 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: digest fLUX-staff Subject: X with BF: Design, Not Age Dear Patrick Your wrote: "In each of us there is a higher spiritual self..." and go on in New Age phrasings that I highly doubt that you have any idea what you are taking about. Please do not let other writers' easy dogmatizing dicate what you have to say. That would not be in Bucky's spirit, channelled or unchannelled, in planes or airplanes. Fanatic Fuller Follower Frank ;-), who lets other writers dictate now: "for God to me it seems, is a verb - not a noun, [...] is loving, not the abstraction "Love" commanded or entreated; is knowledge dynamic, not legislative code, not proclamation law, not academic dogma, nor ecclesiastic canon" (R.Buckminster Fuller..."No More Scondhand God") "Men die, Horatio, and worms eat them - but not for love." (Shakespeare..."Hamlet") | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:41:47 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: X with BF: Design, Not Age >Dear Patrick >Your wrote: "In each of us there is a higher spiritual self..." and go on in >New Age phrasings that I highly doubt that you have any idea what you are >taking about. Please do not let other writers' easy dogmatizing dicate what >you have to say. That would not be in Bucky's spirit, channelled or >unchannelled, in planes or airplanes. Your statement is a misrepresentation of what I wrote and your thinly veiled personal insult does not contribute to honest discussion. The basis of these ideas comes from all the worlds scriptures (not New Age phrasings). I do not believe that unconscious channelling is good in any form. Peace, Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:57:02 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: X with BF: Design, Not Age Also, If you are referring to knowledge based on experience then your doubts are unfounded. God Bless, Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 00:06:56 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Bucky's flair, number 3 Everybody, Just to tie up a loose end, Dr. Rick Kirschner and I have continued our amicable conversation about Bucky, his flair for publicity, his statement of purpose, and his unwillingness to subject to garden- variety scientific inquiry off-list. Kirby suggested that maybe my point about whether or not Bucky's statement of purpose applied -- wait, let me start this sentence again. I wondered whether Bucky was really working for the good of mankind in those years between 1935 and 1955 when he looked and acted most like an industrialist. Kirby suggested this point might be worth further investigation. I don't think so. Rick convinced me that this is a minor, ad hominum point at best, and at this stage of the game it doesn't matter one whit what Bucky's state of mind was on any given day. (Kirby, I've still thinking about that great retro-rocket metaphor you used, to suggest someone trying to escape a mentor's mental orbit. What a great set of images that brings up. . . thanks!. . . ) I did want to draw attention to a set of words that Rick threw in here -- he said, "Naturopathy is predicated on a different paradigm than the operative base of the existing power structure, which has everything to lose by a paradigm shift." This expresses Bucky's life story, I think. Interesting that this new tool we're using, the internet, also represents a paradigm shift which threatens existing power structures. Bucky's engineering, design science and geometric discoveries all threatened existing power structures, obviously -- I mean, he STARTED his career threatening the entire auto industry in a more radical and fundamental way than Preston Tucker ever dreamed of -- and it's to his eternal credit that he didn't end up crumpled in a little ball like so many other smart rebels. That's the aspect of Fuller I especially respect and admire. He knew. Little guy'll whip a big guy, long as the little guy's right and keeps coming. Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 22:18:39 -0400 Reply-To: PHotch Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: PHotch Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Geodesic dome class Sorry I lost the original msg re are there any books as guidelines to teaching a class. Don't know what grade level you want to address but I found a book at used book store call Making Places changing spaces in shcolls at ;home and withing ourselves (whew what a title) Farallones scrapblook copyright Farallones Design 1971 and ditrib by Random House, Inc. It's projects are for children but good section on domes, differences between single, double frequency etc. and some good model building ideas. Hope you can find it. If not let me know and see what we can work out to send you the info without messing with copyright laws! Kathleen Hotchkiss ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:55:29 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat >Ted Campbell >New York City > >spy222@alo.com Where is Ted, he brings all this good dialogue, and disapears. you can continue, best luck. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 08:36:56 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: Bucky's flair, number 3 Walt-- You bring up a relevant point in describing the internet as "representing a paradigm shift." The speed at which the internet operates brings world-wide communications very close to a baseline speed of the speed of light (a Fuller metaphor for realization of a paradigm shift). In April, at the Fuller Centennial in Cambridge, I brought up this topic, quoting from the "Internet Economics Workshop--Workshop Notes" (Research Program on Communications Policy, Center for Technology, Policy, and Industrial Development, MIT, March 30, 1995): "'Instant' is within a second or so. The US is 100 ms wide; Australia is 300 ms away. It's a nice flattening effect that everything is this close." What is being described is the exponential increase in data rates and speed of communication around the world--a topic Fuller often talked about and sometimes diagramed. Now, a few years after Fuller's death, we have experienced the "turning the corner"--and we can communicate and retrieve information anywhere on the planet 'instantly.' I wrote on this topic in Critical Path AIDS Project newsletter several years ago in an article called "AIDS Information: The Speed of Light." Kiyoshi Forwarded message: >Everybody, > >Just to tie up a loose end, Dr. Rick Kirschner and I have continued our >amicable conversation about Bucky, his flair for publicity, his >statement of purpose, and his unwillingness to subject to garden- >variety scientific inquiry off-list. > >Kirby suggested that maybe my point about whether or not Bucky's >statement of purpose applied -- wait, let me start this sentence >again. I wondered whether Bucky was really working for the good of mankind >in those years between 1935 and 1955 when he looked and acted most >like an industrialist. Kirby suggested this point might be worth further >investigation. I don't think so. Rick convinced me that this is a >minor, ad hominum point at best, and at this stage of the game it >doesn't matter one whit what Bucky's state of mind was on any given >day. > >(Kirby, I've still thinking about that great retro-rocket metaphor >you used, to suggest someone trying to escape a mentor's mental >orbit. What a great set of images that brings up. . . thanks!. . . ) > >I did want to draw attention to a set of words that Rick threw in >here -- he said, "Naturopathy is predicated on a different paradigm than >the operative base of the existing power structure, which has everything to >lose by a paradigm shift." > >This expresses Bucky's life story, I think. Interesting that this >new tool we're using, the internet, also represents a paradigm shift >which threatens existing power structures. Bucky's engineering, design >science and geometric discoveries all threatened existing power >structures, obviously -- I mean, he STARTED his career threatening the >entire auto industry in a more radical and fundamental way than Preston >Tucker ever dreamed of -- and it's to his eternal credit that he didn't >end up crumpled in a little ball like so many other smart rebels. >That's the aspect of Fuller I especially respect and admire. He knew. > >Little guy'll whip a big guy, long as the little guy's right and keeps >coming. > >Walt _____________________________________________________________ Kiyoshi Kuromiya, Project Director Critical Path Project Email: kiyoshi@critpath.org Hotline: (215) 545-2212 (24-hr) Fax: (215) 735-2762 Internet: (215) 463-7160 Web Home Page: (under construction) Beeper: (800) 973-8084 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 09:03:50 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: digest fLUX-staff Subject: X with BF: Antique Design Patrick: your wrote:" The basis of these ideas comes from all the worlds scriptures". (1) What are the worlds "scriptures", as opposed to the world's documents, books, texts...? (2) If you could point to the source of "these ideas" and show what this has to do with Bucky, I'll be your avid reader. There are number of traditions describing contact with superstructure, 1st principle, Deity... and Bucky might be placed within one of those: Neo-Pythagoreanism for example. In that cosmology a general sympathy connected all parts of the spheres of the cosmos, the so-called harmany of the spheres. The structure of these harmonic relationships was mathematical, and as the order of the material universe had emerged, in Pythagorean belief systems, from the One, the understanding of this cosmic harmony was a means of studying and accessing the One. Nicomachus of Gerasa describes it in "Theological Arithmetic" (150 A.D.) Bucky, a modern practioner of the "ars combinatoria" ? "if there was ever an individual whom I would suspect of being in some sort of genuine contact with extra-terrestrial sources of intelligence, it would be Mr. Fuller" (homeboy@esinet1.esinet.net) Fanatic Fuller Follower Frank ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 08:19:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Erin Conley Subject: Re: Synergetic Atomic Model >Steven, > > I am very much interested in a 3-d model that explains >quantum physics. I'm studying chemical engineering, so most of >my quantum mechanics has been on an atomic and molecular level. >Throughout my study I have been looking for ways to relate q.m. >to synergetics, so I would be very interested in any succes you >have had. One thing I have been wondering about is the >possibility that the de Broglie "standing wave" harmonics that >model electronic orbitals could be polyhedra whose vertecies >make up the nodes of the standing waves. Do you have any >insight into this? How does one model a spherical wave anyway? > >Galen Staengl >gs5b@virginia.edu > I refer you to (I believe) Kirby Urner's Synergetics WWW server >>http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html The electro-magnetic spectrum is modelled concentrically. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 09:11:47 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Paul R. Kosuth" Subject: Re: Geodesic dome class Comments: To: PHotch In-Reply-To: <3v9hdv$ef3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> I know that this a tag on, and maybe not much help. This Fall I am planning on building a 2 freq frame for an outdoor class room space. I plan to go from the plans in the _Dome Builders Handbook_ ed by John Prensis (also out of print -- I got mine at a flea market). I have yet to find any standard curriculum for domes, or Fuller stuff though there are lots of resources that need to be adapted for classrooms. This fall I'll be doing an 8 week course centering on the dome construction and Fullers ideas. Please forward any info along these lines. Also, what would be the top 10 (or so) concepts/ideas that need to be gotten across to students. I teach students with learning disabilities ages 12 to 21 at a private school in Carbondale, Il. Thanks, Paul Kosuth prkosuth@prairienet.org >On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, PHotch wrote: > Sorry I lost the original msg re are there any books as guidelines to > teaching a class. Don't know what grade level you want to address but I > found a book at used book store call Making Places changing spaces in > shcolls at ;home and withing ourselves (whew what a title) Farallones > scrapblook copyright Farallones Design 1971 and ditrib by Random House, > Inc. It's projects are for children but good section on domes, differences > between single, double frequency etc. and some good model building ideas. > Hope you can find it. If not let me know and see what we can work out to > send you the info without messing with copyright laws! > > Kathleen Hotchkiss > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 10:33:55 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: X with BF: Antique Design >your wrote:" The basis of these ideas comes from all the worlds scriptures". >(1) What are the worlds "scriptures", as opposed to the world's documents, >books, texts...? (2) If you could point to the source of "these ideas" and >show what this has to do with Bucky, I'll be your avid reader. Hmmm...I think we have travelled far in our discussion: These spiritual and scripture statements sort of evolved out of a discussion which began with someone trashing Bucky (very naughty naughty in my opinion) and then moved to a discussion of whether or not Bucky had any spiritual inclinations. I then put up a post mentioning that a friend I knew who worked with Bucky for a while told me that Bucky did believe in spiritual realities and immortality (although certainly not in some dogmatic religious sense but more as part of the natural structure of all-knowing universe). Someone then said that they knew someone who channelled R.B.F. I have done a lot of research (reading, travelling, etc.) and I have found that the whole unconscious channelling thing is delusionary and physically harmful (to those involved) and so I posted some info on this. People should look for spiritual/divine realities while awake and aware/conscious -- not pay some unconscious entity money for it! So the phrases and spiritual sounding terms are from my own travels and experiences and I have found these concepts to be consistent throughout the world's scriptures. I had in the above postings no desire to dogmatize or impose or claim on faith anything but was simply responding to other posts. As far as proving these ideas in our experiences goes there are basic ideas of the path (good character, purity, meditation, prayer, service, etc) which are also found consistently throughout the world's scriptures and following these seems to lead to the relevant realizations. Peace, Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 12:40:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steven L Combs Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Subject: Two Questions 1) What would our group of geometers call the shape of a soccer ball? I find one Bucky reference to it as a 6 frequency icosahedron, which I don't really see. Suggestions.? 2) Is there a formula for calculating what frequency tone will be produced by a cylinder when struck? I am seeking to make xylophones and need to know if there is a standard physics formula for the length, diameter, and perhaps material density (would density matter?) of a ringing cylinder. Sincerely, Steven Lee Combs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 12:19:07 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: X with BF: Antique Design Oops, just to be clear "scriptures" means the various books and writings that main religions and cultures consider sacred, like the Gospels, the Bhaghavad Gita, Koran, theosophy, Mahabharata, Tao Te Ching, Dhammaphada, etc. Peace, Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 19:54:14 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: the religion of Buckism (fwd) Leo Elliott wrote: >So I for one would be very interested in seeing Robert Cook's >files on Bucky's "unrevealed" religious beliefs ("From Bible >to Babble to Bible"); I'm not sure how Bucky would be >classified by the traditional schools of philosophy, perhaps >somewhere between "pragmatist" and "techno-mystic"... I think "American Transcendentalist" makes about as much sense as any category -- not to be nationalistic in any way (as if the Peruvian tree frog were somehow a Peruvian national), but simply to link him to Emerson, Thoreu and, of course, to his great aunt Margaret Fuller. As Ted Campbell pointed out, having a sense of the divine and especially during peak highs or suicidal lows (a "salvation" experience) are old hat, well-described in books like William James "Varieties of Religious Experience." And I am grateful to Ted for opening the space for people to come forward as "former fanatics" or BF-addicts or however we choose to characterize it. I think far more exciting is what Fuller intended as his message: that any ordinary individual has the ability to expand his/her capacity for comprehension by way of the mind's power to organize special-case brain-stored experiences. We should recall his philosophy that each healthy child is a genius with superb mental faculties. Perhaps the "Bucky as savior" phase one goes through is more a regaining of some lost faculties and faith in the power of the mind, after which one becomes strong enough to see Bucky as one more thinker (among many, including oneself) concered with how best to get humanity out of a dark age and into a brighter one. Kirby ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 21:13:06 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Two Questions - one answer In-Reply-To: from "Steven L Combs" at Jul 28, 95 12:40:00 pm Steven Lee Combs: > 1) What would our group of geometers call the shape of a soccer > ball? I find one Bucky reference to it as a 6 frequency icosahedron, > which I don't really see. Suggestions.? it is a truncated icosahedron - the corners of an icosa are truncated one-third along the edge so that the icosa's former 20 triangular faces are replaced with 20 hexagonal faces, and the 12 corners become 12 pentagonal faces. this is the shape of the carbon-60 buckminsterfullerene molecule, of course. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 22:09:56 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller Memorial Program (fwd) Helen W. St. Cyr writes: > From svpal.svpal.org!svpal.org!5889ww Thu Jul 27 13:55:08 1995 > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 14:00:41 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Helen W. St. Cyr" <5889ww@svpal.org> > Subject: RE: Buckminster Fuller Memorial Program (fwd) > To: Joe Moore > cc: 5889ww@svpal.org > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Hi, Joe, > > Welcome back! > > The time of the broadcast described below was noon - 1 P.M. PST. > > Helen > > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 27 Jul 1995 12:46:53 -0400 (EDT) > From:SCIFRI@npr.org > To: 5889ww@svpal.org > Subject: RE: Buckminster Fuller Memorial Program > > Dear Helen, > > You may indeed purchase a copy of the Buckminster Fuller hour on Science > Friday by calling (202) 414-3232. Be sure to specify the date (7/21) and > hour (second) of the program. Thanks for writing, and keep listening. > > Sincerely, > Kevin of Science Friday > > > p.s. you have good manners. I can tell. > > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Jul 1995 22:48:32 -0400 Reply-To: AMKALENAK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: AMKALENAK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat My sentiments exactly. He really got this list buzin. Kinda lends credence to the phrase "No pain, no gain". ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 02:36:31 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Synergetic Payoff If I've been to critical of Buckminster Fuller you might regard me as a "synergetic payoff", since Buckminster Fuller believed that the payment for solving one problem was a plethora of more difficult problems. Spoof: "I must be doing what Universe wants me to do, my corresondence has increased dramatically!" --R. Buckminster Fuller Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 02:13:18 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Bucky's flair for publicity The question: "Does Humanity really need Buckminster Fuller's help?" needs to be asked. Buckminster Fuller and his followers take the answer: "Humanity does need our help," for granted. Buckminster Fuller predicted many great calamities, from nuclear holocaust to his endorsement of John Hammaker's <> and felt that his theories, his inventions, would ameliorate these problems. In point of fact, none of his predictions (prognostications) have come to "pass, or to stay." Since no global disasters have occured, there is no reason to believe that the measures prescribed by Buckminster Fuller were necessary. In other words, if humanity has succeeded long past his deadlines without his help, isn't Buckminster Fuller obsolete? Worrying about "utopia or oblivion" an advertising come on. It's only a shame that the Buckminster Fuller Institute and the World Game haven't succeeded in making money at it. If I were running either of those organizations it would be. Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 02:48:27 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Buckminster Fuller made a career out of being a messiah figure, "the planets friendly geniusin order to give up "earning the right to live." It's a typical fantasy to leave the world of "working for others" to the world of "working for yourself", but Bucky subsituted "working for Universe (for God in silence about God)" Merely mentioning such notions as "working for God" are what I mean by "messiah style tricks" he was pussing psycological buttons. How can one work for "God in silence about God" by mentioning both in the same sentence? Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 02:57:02 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat The bible is comprehensive because the motions of the culture were prefigured by it. You can't say the samething about <>, but you wish you could. That's my whole point, you're creating another religion. Buckminster Fullers religion takes all of its major precepts from the Christian version of the Bible, but Buckminster Fuller's whole philosophy goes one world at its logical extension. But the Bible wasn't written by Christians anyway, it was written by Jews. The imperial notion doesn't exist in Jewish culture (although there are some references to non-Jews all wanting to be Jewish someday, but this is ambigious and not really imperial because Jewish land is only Israel--which is clearly defined by the Bible.) Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 03:28:14 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat :-) Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 11:04:26 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David C. Olson" Subject: GENERAL SYSTEMS THEORY Respectfully request information/shared views concerning General Systems Theory. Am an educator interested in facilitating discussion here in Syracuse on applications of GS into curriculum development. Have memory of Bucky suggesting study of GS. To begin with who was the originator of this field? At present am doing post graduate study in field of educational administration. Any public school administrators out there that are savvy in this area? I tried some preliminary searches on the WWW worm and found much on computer systems and artificial/simulated intelligence, however material is too abstruse for my level of understanding at present. If you know of any URL's or WAIS/GOPHER sites germane to the issue of GS theory and applications in the social sciencesit could be a start. In any case thanks for your time in reading this message. David C. Olson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 08:46:27 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Comments: To: spy222@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3vcnuf$cap@newsbf02.news.aol.com>; from "Spy 222" at Jul 29, 95 3:28 am ^ ^ O O V --- -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 12:22:09 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: NJ Hillary Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat Have a good day, stay indoors, drink lot of fluids and be kind to your system. c u later. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 14:02:22 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Wenzel Subject: Re: GENERAL SYSTEMS THEORY In-Reply-To: I believe General Systems theory derives from work done by mathematician Ludvig von Bertalanfy ( I apologize if spelling is incorrect ) early in the century. In the '60's I read a good "Introduction to General Systems Theory" by ( I think ) Ervin Lazlo. Sorry, can't remember exact title or publisher. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 12:06:33 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Dr. Rick Kirschner" Subject: Re: the religion of Buckism (fwd) Hmmm...Aha! I've had a breakthrough in Understanding! After reading Kirby's post, I've comprehended, by way of the mind's power to organize special-case brain-stored experiences, that there are people who have had conversion experiences around Bucky's own conversion experience , thus turning him into a religious figure. This is something I had not considered before. I didn't recognize until this moment that anyone had viewed Bucky as an avatar (though, on reflecting, someone did say something like this to me once...I thought it was an 'enthusiastic' statement and nothing more). His 'salvation' experience didn't register as such, since I thought everybody had a sense of the divine especially during peak highs or suicidal lows ! I'd already had conversion experiences of my own, before I ever heard of Bucky. Since I now comprehend that the person of the Buckmeister sometimes became the focal point moreso than a useful and inspirational model for some, I can only hope that my responses on this board to Ted's letter (i.e., 'Bucky self-serving? Get Real') was understood as having a positive intent. A few years back, when I was looking for models and strategies anyway, and kept hearing about Bucky and the BFInstitute through friends, I began reading some of Bucky's works. Bucky is an excellent modeler of strategies. Yet he was also all too human as well. It is for this reason that I related to him as a kindred spirit as well as a role model. In my experience, Bucky is a resource for living life on purpose and in this he sets a great example. I have noticed that when i find myself taking that 'step too far to the left and right', I want to let purpose become the focal point that compels me to action. In the bigger picture, my posts are an effort to contribute some of my energy to the purpose of keeping this newsgroup a place of common ground for people inspired by Bucky to live their lives in a purposeful way. And I derive tremendous pleasure and inspiration talking with like minded people about the value perceived in both his ideas and how he conducted his life. I also believe that this newsgroup is primarily a place for sharing ideas, testing hypotheses, and accessing resources help the world out of a dark and dreary history into a future of profound possibilities. Kirby also spoke for me when he said: >>>I think far more exciting is what Fuller intended as his message: that any ordinary individual has the ability to expand his/her capacity for comprehension by way of the mind's power to organize special-case brain-stored experiences. Ted, sorry for any misunderstanding, and all the best to you all, Rick ******************************** Buckminster Fuller said "If humanity does not opt for integrity, we are through completely. It is absolutely touch and go. Each one of us could make the difference." Dr.Rick Kirschner, ND Co-Owner, Creative Director R&R Productions ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 17:22:19 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David F. Watkins" Subject: Re: GENERAL SYSTEMS THEORY In-Reply-To: On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, David C. Olson wrote: > Respectfully request information/shared views concerning > General Systems Theory. David, I believe the following URL will give you a good starting point for General Systems Theory resources. If not, send email and I will check a bit more. http://www.protree.com/worldtrans/whole.html Bye, Dave Watkins ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 17:15:44 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David F. Watkins" Subject: Re: Bucky's flair for publicity Comments: To: Spy 222 In-Reply-To: <3vcjhu$b1k@newsbf02.news.aol.com> On Sat, 29 Jul 1995, Spy 222 wrote: > The question: "Does Humanity really need Buckminster Fuller's help?" > needs to be asked. Buckminster Fuller and his followers take the answer: > "Humanity does need our help," for granted. Seems to me that the world could use a little improvement. I've never thought of Bucky as a messiah figure, maybe a prophet and mystic in a modern sense. > > Buckminster Fuller predicted many great calamities, from nuclear holocaust > to his endorsement of John Hammaker's <> and > felt that his theories, his inventions, would ameliorate these problems. > In point of fact, none of his predictions (prognostications) have come to > "pass, or to stay." Since no global disasters have occured, there is no > reason to believe that the measures prescribed by Buckminster Fuller were > necessary. In other words, if humanity has succeeded long past his > deadlines without his help, isn't Buckminster Fuller obsolete? As I understand Bucky he was saying that we have options and our choices can result in utopia or oblivion. Maybe we have made enough of the right choices to avoid oblivion (although obviously not enough to create utopia). Even here on 'geodesic' I read posts that sound like none of Bucky's ideas have been acted upon. Geodesic domes have been written of by many as irrelevant. I have seen number, which I don't have at hand, about how many geodesic domes have been construct. The number is significant. Bucky probably had more to do with spreading the concept of synergy than any other thinker. Now the concept is everywhere. If one is thinking of Bucky followers as a cult (I don't), it would seem one is conceeding that he has had an influence. From my perspective Bucky has had a tremendous influence. To me the importance of Bucky has always been his approach to problems. His way of thinking. It has been suggested that he should have subjected his ideas to scrutiny by the mainstream scientific establishment. I believe the point is that his methods are different from traditional scientific methodology. This does not mean they are wrong, just different. To suggest that they are invalid if the can not be 'reduced' to traditional analytical methods misses the point. > Worrying about "utopia or oblivion" an advertising come on. It's only a > shame that the Buckminster Fuller Institute and the World Game haven't > succeeded in making money at it. If I were running either of those > organizations it would be. Making money isn't a validation of an activity, else the drug cartels would be of great value. At the heart of the 'utopia or oblivion' writing was the argument that Malthus was wrong, that there is enough for eveyone. All the economic, political and social systems based on Malthus are wrong. Before reading Bucky (at least 25 years ago) I believed that there was enough for everyone. Like so much of Bucky, when I read his view of the Malthusian legacy it struck a chord in my own belief system. It was like reading my own thoughts but approached from a much broader and comprehensive point of view. I could go on but have rambled enough. Dave Watkins ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 18:16:20 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Seth Itzkan Subject: Natural Leadership *not* messiah My kudos to this list and everyone on it for keeping a high level of interesting, informative and dynamic discourse. Thus, in the healthy spirit of "tensegrity", I must issue my profound disagreement with most, if not all, of Ted's assertions about Bucky the messiah, which as a total, sound as if the author is still squarely within the realms of fanaticism he claims to have escaped. Taken as after diner conversation, or given the motto of Rosanne Arnold during the National Anthem fiasco to just "lighten up", I could go along with most of Mr. Cambell's comments as any other form of 20th century criticism and not really give a hoot, but given the nature of Bucky's work, and the propensity in our culture to both fanaticize and eventually destroy everything of value, I found it a little too much to swallow, even with a chaser. Healthy criticism of Bucky (and of each other) here on this list and elsewhere is good and necessary. It is part of dynamic tension which makes a system strong. So, although I'm glad Ted has got the sparks flying here, I won't pretend that I have any agreement with the intellectual torch behind them. His projection that "Buckminster Fuller made a career out of being a messiah figure" is, in my opinion, not only preposterous, but dangerous. I should hope that as a race, we are, or will be, getting our of this messiah craze. We're not going to get anywhere in that trap. It not only diminishes the value of honest and healthy contribution to humankind, it also hinders natural leaders from seeking their potential greatness. A greatness, we all may be capable of achieving. Seth J. Itzkan BBN Educational Technologies Mail Stop 20/6d 150 Cambridge Park Drive Cambridge, MA 02140 sitzkan@bbn.com webmaster@frontdoor.bbn.com 617-873-3163 (v) 617-873-2455 (f) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 16:20:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Dr. Rick Kirschner" Subject: Help Wanted You know, I thought I understood that Ted was venting in order to regain his perspective after giving all his power away to a 'messianic' Bucky. But now, with Ted's latest spate of postings, I've again confused about his intent and purpose. Ted Campbell wrote: >>>>The question: "Does Humanity really need Buckminster Fuller's help?"needs to be asked. According to whom? Who says this question needs to be asked? And, since Bucky is dead, who says he is offering it? >>>>Buckminster Fuller and his followers take the answer: "Humanity does need our help," for granted.<<< Again, according to whom? I don't assume the world needs my help. I do assume that seeking to make a positive difference gives my life meaning, and that it is possible that such is the design of life! According to whom are Bucky's followers assuming that Humanity needs their help? I haven't heard anyone say 'Humanity needs my help!!!' (although I could infer from Ted's posts that he thinks this newsgroup needs HIS help!) I believe that life goes on within me and without me, and that holds true for the seeming significance of everyone! All the same, I want to put my inventory to the best possible use! >>>>Buckminster Fuller predicted many great calamities,<<<< And there have been many....Massive starvation, destruction caused by the Exxon Valdez, Gulf War, Chernobyl, and the rapidly changing global weather patterns with the massive displacement of millions of people, pollution of the water and soil, nuclear materials for sale to terrorists, etc. That Bucky didn't specifically name these events or the dates they would occur on is more evidence that he was only a man, doing what he can, to make the world a better place in a coherent manner, trying to discern patterns and trends and make useful predictions..Before Bucky, I had as my intent to make the world a better place. Inspired to do this by having a daughter, and wanting her to have a better life, I sought out ways to make a positive difference. Bucky's contribution to my process was to give me a language and degree of specificity about outcome that helps me to stay focused and make choices. For this I'm grateful, whereas in trying to understand Ted's point of view and seeming verbal assault on Bucky's intent, and those inspired by Bucky, I am simply mystified! >>>>>In point of fact, none of his predictions (prognostications) have come to "pass, or to stay." Since no global disasters have occured, there is no reason to believe that the measures prescribed by Buckminster Fuller were necessary. <<< No global disasters? How about the deforestation of the planet? How about Bosnia? How about the Gulf War? How about the ever increasing pollution (ozone, particulates, etc.) that hang over the world's great cities, poisoning innocent children and setting them up for chronic illness all the days of their lives? How about the massive starvation occuring on the planet as we sit in luxury talking about this? That Ted is oblivious to these 'global disasters' is evidence of perhaps the greatest global disaster, the failure of humanity to see it's common needs and interests and act in harmony to preserve life and advance the human condition from merely surviving to building a better world. >>>>In other words, if humanity has succeeded long past his deadlines without his help, isn't Buckminster Fuller obsolete?<<<< For Ted, Bucky is obviously obsolete. For me, and lots of other people, Bucky has left a legacy that continues to guide and inspire. >>>>>It's only a shame that the Buckminster Fuller Institute and the World Game haven't succeeded in making money at it. If I were running either of those organizations it would be. <<< I can't help but wonder how, Ted. By inspiring your employees to give their best in service to your 'higher vision'? I find that even harder to believe than your idea of Bucky being obsolete! Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 22:11:44 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: GENERAL SYSTEMS THEORY General System Theory is a really interesting subject. It was invented by Ludwig von Bertalanffy <>. Another great book on GST is <> by Mark Davidson, about the life and work of Ludwig von Bertalanffy--Buckminster Fuller wrote the foreword. There is a "Society for General Systems Research", you might want to look them up in the <>--which should be available in any public, or university, library. I think that <>--it's philosophical aspects (aside from geometry) are predicated on GST. I don't have a copy of the book, but if I come up with one, I'd be happy to discuss Bertalanffy's ideas. Bertalanffy poses a form of "universal discipline" applicable to all major branches of knowledge: Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Sociology, etc. Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 22:21:28 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Natural Leadership *not* messiah Since none of Bucky's disasters have ocurred, I am forced to assume that they were not such a great possibility, ergo, in large part, media hype--advertising. I like the world just the way it is. To quote Bucky, "I wouldn't change anything." Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 22:37:26 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: the religion of Buckism (fwd) Dear Mr. Kirschner, Thanks. That was a very nice letter. I don't think that Buckminster Fuller's image will be significantly tarnished by my breaches of the peace, at the very least we'll all know how to deal with the types of arguments that I'm presenting in the future. I think, deep down, that that everything that Bucky thought would happen is really happening, its just really hard to see. Everything appears to be business as usual, but ten years ago we couldn't comminicate this way--for example. I think that Bucky can bear this criticism, its difficult to harm the dead (peace be on him). I do how ever belive that that there is no reason for people who are 'saving the world' to live a life of aceticism, pain, homlessness and hunger. Sometimes I wonder why the BFI isn't a media empire--the effects of Bucky's ideas would be more profound. Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Jul 1995 22:37:40 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller: an old hat It's hot enough in New York!!!! Ted Campbell New York City spy222@alo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 07:48:04 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: digest fLUX-staff Subject: X with BF: Design Questions Dear Patrick You wrote: " "scriptures" means the various books and writings that main religions and cultures consider sacred" and I find this is a fine definition. 1. Now do we on the Net(culture) find Bucky's writings "sacred"? 2. Do we think that they hold truth of visionary origin (Consider the Lake Michigan incident) ? 3. Is there a fundamental difference between H.P. Blavatsky's "The Secret Doctrine" (you mentioned theosophy) and B.F.'s "Nine Chains to the Moon" ? 4. Did you watch SILENT RUNNING ('71) about geodesic domes floating in space ? 5. DID ANYONE EVER BUILD A GEODESIC DOME AND WILL SHARE SOME EXPERIENCE? F.F.F. Frank (The first time he heard of B.F. was in a piece by the late John Cage, that came thru the airwaves out of Cologne. The last time he saw B.F.'s picture was on B.F.'s "Epic Poem" book he picked up for 44 cents here in New York) "The non-navigating sailors never knew where they were on the high sea. All they saw was water." Buckminster Fuller |\ \___| \___/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~\______/~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 11:13:22 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leo Elliott Subject: Buckist Blasphemy! (fwd) Comments: cc: Jim McNelly , Julio Edwards , Dick Prince ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 30 Jul 95 11:04:38 EDT From: homeboy Subject: Buckist Blasphemy! Buckists, Ted scribes spoofingly, > Spoof: "I must be doing what Universe wants me to do, my corresondence > has increased dramatically!" > > Ted Campbell > spy222@alo.com Unless Ted has two aol accounts, this must truly be a miraculous occurrence, for mail to be increasing to what I presume is a non- existent account at "alo.com" -- or could it be that, in his efforts at self-advertisment, Ted may be manifesting a modicum of the same sort of slipshoddiness that he attributes to Bucky and his "predictions"? Nonetheless, to give the critic his due: > The question: "Does Humanity really need Buckminster Fuller's help?" > needs to be asked. Buckminster Fuller and his followers take the answer: > "Humanity does need our help," for granted. Seems like two different lead-ins here, or rather, that one can ask (and answer) the question of "Does humanity need help?" in the affirmative, without necessarily agreeing that humanity needed RBF's _particular_ answers. There is also a distinction to be made, imo, in the assessment of whether Humanity could benefit by the use of Fuller's artifacts and inventions (simply as being more energy-efficient tools), from whether or not Humanity need concomitantly accept Fuller's philosophy (however one may choose to describe that.) Of course, there are those, like H.L. Mencken, who take a somewhat more pessimistic turn at the outset: "Truth, indeed, is something that is believed in completely only by persons who have never tried to pursue it to its fastnesses and grab it by the tail. It is the adoration of second-rate men -- men who always received it as second- hand. Pedagogues believe in immutable truths and spend their lives trying to determine them and propagate them; the intellectual progress of man consists largely of a concerted effort to block and destroy their enterprise. Nine times out of ten, in the arts as in life, there is actually no truth to be discovered; there is only error to be exposed. In whole departments of human inquiry it seems to me quite unlikely that the truth ever _will_ be discovered. Nevertheless, the rubber-stamp thinking of the world always makes the assumption that the exposure of an error is identical with the discovery of truth -- that error and truth are simply opposites. They are nothing of the sort. What the world turns to, when it has been cured of one error, is usually simply another error, and maybe one worse than the first one. This is the whole history of the intellect in brief..." (1921, The Critical Process) Well, to give Bucky his due as well, I would say he was one who _did_ try to grab truth by the tail -- and whether he could be viewed as a pedagogue is certainly a matter of interpretation. I also think that Bucky could ably qualify for inclusion in Mencken's category of "the scientist", "... one of the most useful men the human race has yet produced: the scientific investigator..." "The value the world sets upon motives is often grossly unjust and inaccurate. Consider, for example, two of them: mere insatiable curiosity and the desire to do good. The latter is put high above the former, and yet it is the former that moves one of the most useful men the human race has yet produced: the scientific investigator. What actually urges him on is not some brummagen idea of Service, but a boundless, almost pathological thirst to penetrate the unknown, to uncover the secret, to find out what has not been found out before. His prototype is not the liberator releasing slaves, the good Samaritan lifting up the fallen, but a dog sniffing tremendously at an infinite series of rat-holes." (Prejudices, Third Series - 1922). So, as has been observed before, while it is easy to speculate upon the motives of those long-deceased, the net effect seems to be only to recreate the dead in the desired image of the re-creator, and if this is so, then I would personally re-create Fuller to be one who was indeed motivated as a bloodhound sniffing out the rat-holes, but who later, as Ted points out, adopted the (neologisticized) rhetoric of "the uplift": > Ted: "... but Bucky substituted "working for Universe (for God in > silence about God)" Merely mentioning such notions as "working for > God" are what I mean by "messiah style tricks" he was pussing > psycological buttons." Agreed, at least about pushing buttons; Bucky was a poet as well as a scientific investigator, (and I won't even get into Mencken's notions of poetry) and as such, I think he was a skilled rhetorician, when he wanted to be, and could mesmerize and mystify receptive audiences as easily as he could evade critical ones. However, all of this still amounts to an analysis of Bucky's _persona_, which is an interesting thing to do for those of us (often of the Americano persuasion) who seem to be afflicted with HIDS (Hero Immune Deficiency Syndrome) -- but still avoids the perhaps more amenable investigation (to rephrase Ted's original questions a bit) of _can Humanity benefit_ _not_ by adopting Fuller's philosophy (an admittedly religious enterprise) but more simply and practically, by using a few of his inventions and artifacts. This strikes me as the way Bucky himself would have had it "come to pass", if it (whatever "it" is) is going to come to pass at all. That Bucky has become a hero, if not a guru or a messiah, to many who came of intellectual age in the heydey of Fullerian Fluorescence, seems hard to deny. (I'll have to work some more Rick, on my Avatar-scale, to see just where Bucky fit! 8-D ). I don't know how much zen-like or cynic-like resignation I may have assumed in more recent years, but I think Mencken does have his finger on a peculiarity of the American character (and Bucky was certainly one of these characters), in the following: "Unluckily, it is difficult for the American mind to grasp the concept of insolubility. Thousands of poor dolts keep on trying to square the circle; other thousands keep pegging away at perpetual motion. The number of persons so afflicted is far greater than the records of the Patent Office show, for beyond the circle of frankly insane enterprise there lie circles of more and more plausible enterprise, and finally we come to a circle which embraces the great majority of human beings. These are the optimists and chronic hopers of the world, the believers in men, ideas and things. It is their settled faith that whatever is desirable will come to pass. A caressing confidence -- but one, unfortunately, that is not borne out by human experience. The fact is that some of the things that men and women have desired most ardently for thousands of years are not nearer realization today than they were in the time of Rameses, and that there is not the slightest reason for believing that they will lose their coyness on any near tomorrow. Plans for hurrying them on have been tried since the beginning; plans for forcing them overnight are in copious and antagonistic operation today; and yet they continue to hold off and elude us until the angels get tired of the show, and the whole earth is set off like a gigantic bomb, or drowned, like a sick cat, between two buckets." (Prejudices: Second Series, 1920) [Maybe Kevin Costner had just had this passage channeled to him when he made _Waterworld_?] [I'm not as aware as I guess I should be of all the failed Fullerian prophesies of calamities, disasters, etc. It is my impression that starting in the 60s, many newagey kind of folks/seers/transformers and uplifters (e.g. Werner Erhard) tried to latch onto Bucky to cop onto some of his "scientific aura" to in some way or another legitimize their particular slant on things, their particular program(s) for upliftment, etc., and, while I can only speculate here again, it would seem quite natural (as I re-create Bucky) for an older guy who'd been struggling for recognition and acceptance for many years to be rather naturally overwhelmed by all the sudden fawning and fascination of these new-found followers (not sure if John Hammaker would qualify here or not.)] > Worrying about "utopia or oblivion" an advertising come on. Well, I really think that it's more of a religion come on, and that the folks who really pioneered such binary thinking were the same folks who brought us "good vs. evil", "God vs. Satan", etc., but that's, as the EST-ies like to say, is "a separate conversation." > It's only a > shame that the Buckminster Fuller Institute and the World Game haven't > succeeded in making money at it. Well, to be fair to Bucky and his "cult" at the BFI, I don't think that money is a part of their rhetorical frame. One may, however, opine as to how much of their efforts at countering the "grunch of giants" (pointing out errors, in Mencken's assessment above), are framed by the search for power. It does seem, in this sense, that those enterprises which disclaim the pursuit of money or fame are indeed simply playing the same sort of religious-reframing game that gets played so well, and more blatantly, by the mainline churches ("We're not out to revolutionize society, just help the poor and downtrodden, and provide livingspace for all.") Or as the great cynic F. Nietzsche put it: "Neither necessity nor desire, but the love of power, is the demon of mankind. You may give man everything possible -- health, food, shelter, enjoyment -- but they are and remain unhappy and capricious, for the demon waits and waits; and must be satisfied. Let everything else be taken away from men, and let this demon be satisfied, and then they will nearly be happy -- as happy as men and demons can be." (The Dawn of Day) While I can personally attest that I find the use of "crewmembers of spaceship earth" used as a reference to all of Humanity much more appealing than the more standard religious reference to "children of God", I must simultaneously recognize that, at this point, the discussion becomes one of taste in language, and as Brother Alexius taught his charges so well, _de gustibus non disputandum_ (on matters of taste there can be no dispute). Anyhow, to close this overlong ramble, and perhaps focus the discussion back onto the possible utility of Bucky's artifacts, I will share (with belated shock) the following assessment of domes I came across in a recent _Utne Reader_, citing Stewart Brand, once (?) a devout Buckist high-priest (from a review of Brand's book _How Buildings Learn_, review by Robert Gerloff): "The problems he describes are complex, and simple solutions often make the problems worse. Brand won my trust by confessing how the _Whole Earth Catalog_ promoted geodesic domes, one of the best- intentioned but most technically unworkable fads ever to sweep housing. And he transcends simplistic architect bashing by recognizing that the developer, the banker, the realtor, and ultimately the user must all be willing to pay higher up-front costs to get a building that is more permanent and adaptable. Brand doesn't have all the answers, but he does ask all the right questions." (Utne Reader, Jan-Feb '95, p. 119) I'm not aware of Brand's reaction, if any, to this review, or if he considers Gerloff's assessment an accurate portrayal of his position. It does seem however, that, _pace_ Fuller, we must indeed have some conversation with those very grunchy-demons -- the developers, bankers, realtors, etc. -- which Bucky would launch to the moon. And in fairness to Bucky, he certainly didn't have all the answers either, despite the best efforts of the Buckists to make it appear otherwise; but let it also be said that while Bucky didn't ask perhaps _all_ the right questions, he did ask a fair number. a recovering Buckist, Leodesic --------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 12:52:48 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: X with BF: Design Questions >Dear Patrick >You wrote: " "scriptures" means the various books and writings that main >religions and cultures consider sacred" and I find this is a fine definition. > >1. Now do we on the Net(culture) find Bucky's writings "sacred"? >2. Do we think that they hold truth of visionary origin (Consider the Lake >Michigan incident) ? I suppose one of the key components of what would be called legitimate (genuine/real) visionary or mystical writings is that they embody truth which we can demonstrate to ourselves in practical living which then enriches our lives and the lives of all (is this like universal truth?). Bucky's writings certainly qualify as "sacred" by this standard! -- It's not *who* says it but *what* is said (and does it really work) that matters. (Another key component sems to be that the writer or speaker should be humble, fully conscious and not run around claiming to be some important spiritual messenger!!) >3. Is there a fundamental difference between H.P. Blavatsky's "The Secret >Doctrine" (you mentioned theosophy) and B.F.'s "Nine Chains to the Moon" ? Don't know -- Different info but same basic principles I bet? >4. Did you watch SILENT RUNNING ('71) about geodesic domes floating in space? Yes >5. DID ANYONE EVER BUILD A GEODESIC DOME AND WILL SHARE SOME EXPERIENCE? Not yet, but soon I hope! Peace, Patrick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 11:30:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Dr. Rick Kirschner" Subject: Re: the religion of Buckism (fwd) Comments: cc: spy222@aol.com Dear Ms. Campbell, Thanks for saying thank you! I agree with you, in that I don't think Bucky's image has been tarnished at all by your breaches. Only you can tarnish your breaches. Nor do I think it particularly important to know how to deal with your type of arguments, as engaging in them primarily serves the purpose of occupying my spare time (and that of others) amidst the many productive tasks calling for attention. Anything of real importance is most likely happening out of view of this newsgroup. >>I think, deep down, that that everything that Bucky thought would happen is really happening, its just really hard to see. << Bucky seems to me to have been a real believer in the invisible (tensional ) side of things rather than viewing the overt (compressional) side as the strongest indicator of what's happening! This tensegrity insight has proven invaluable to me for some time, wherever there is sound and fury constitutes only the smallest percentage of what is actually going on, and that in the big scheme of things, everything is as it should be! >> I do how ever belive that that there is no reason for people who are 'saving the world' to live a life of aceticism, pain, homlessness and hunger. << Different strokes, ma'am. I wouldn't deny the benefits received by Schweitzer , Ghandi and Mother Teresa as a result of their lifestyle choices. >>Sometimes I wonder why the BFI isn't a media empire--the effects of Bucky's ideas would be more profound.<< Unlikely! If BFI were a media empire, the compromises made in the message to achieve such a powerful position in the power structure would likely dilute and destroy Bucky's ideas beyond recognition. Nope, it's the grass roots work that really changes the world for the better, not all the huffin' and puffin' that constitutes politics and publicity. Enjoy the heat! You must be getting what you want. All the best, Rick ******************************** Buckminster Fuller said "If humanity does not opt for integrity, we are through completely. It is absolutely touch and go. Each one of us could make the difference." Dr.Rick Kirschner Co-Owner, Creative Director R&R Productions ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 15:34:51 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Seth Itzkan Subject: Re: Help Wanted Amen. >That Ted is oblivious to these >'global disasters' is evidence of perhaps the greatest global disaster, the >failure of humanity to see it's common needs and interests and act in harmony >to preserve life and advance the human condition from merely surviving to >building a better world. Seth J. Itzkan BBN Educational Technologies Mail Stop 20/6d 150 Cambridge Park Drive Cambridge, MA 02140 sitzkan@bbn.com webmaster@frontdoor.bbn.com 617-873-3163 (v) 617-873-2455 (f) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Jul 1995 18:02:55 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Help Wanted >>That Ted is oblivious to these >>'global disasters' is evidence of perhaps the greatest global disaster, the >>failure of humanity to see it's common needs and interests and act in harmony >>to preserve life and advance the human condition from merely surviving to >>building a better world. >Amen. In hope I believe that humanity in general is aware of the issues involved but that the current eco-social processes (maintained by what Bucky called, I think, the "power structures") are stifling the evolution of solutions. It seems that we have all struggled to find some form of solution and there has been much discussion about this on the many e-forums that I browse. The solution (as I hope there is -- as opposed to a complete breakdown) I believe may be a natural global societal evolution toward local economic freedom.** Peace, Patrick ** An article called "Economics & Freedom: A Civilized World" has been written (for a conventional scientific audience) which shows how this natural eco-social evolution would work and suggests a practical plan for bringing it about. If you wish you can get a copy by sending the message "get eco-freedom" to the e-mail address "aprioripaa@aol.com". ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 02:56:06 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: the religion of Buckism (fwd) That's "Mr. Campbell". Ted Campbell New York City spy222@aol.com Internet Deprogrammer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 03:34:34 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckist Blasphemy! (fwd) Buckists, Ted scribes spoofingly, > Spoof: "I must be doing what Universe wants me to do, my corresondence > has increased dramatically!" > > Ted Campbell > spy222@alo.com Unless Ted has two aol accounts, this must truly be a miraculous occurrence, for mail to be increasing to what I presume is a non- existent account at "alo.com" -- or could it be that, in his efforts at self-advertisment, Ted may be manifesting a modicum of the same sort of slipshoddiness that he attributes to Bucky and his "predictions"? ------------------------- I've cleared up that one typographical error. But I think there is a very great difference between writing "alo.com" when one means "aol.com" and saying that the "world is going to end" while charging $5000.00 dollars per lecture, selling books and so on. The fact is, Buckminster Fuller uses a chart of his annual correspondence to prove how popular he is, "that humanity is getting the message." Don't worry, I'm not counting these (my ego isn't big enough to store the information) Ted Campbell New York City spy222@aol.com Internet Deprogrammer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 02:50:08 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Help Wanted None of the disaster that you have named come close to Bucky's statement "it absolutely touch and go" unless your someone who is ACTUALLY on a sinking ship. Yes I think this newsgroup needs my help. As you think it needs yours. Moreover, you think that the world needs your help since, "you are trying to make the world a better place." Where is your evidence that there are changing weather patterns, deforestation and so on. You are using the word evidence rather loosely If the world isn't broken, don't try and fix it. You're defining "common needs" according to your own preception of what those needs are, if there are any. Your oblivious to your own agenda. Its this business about a higher vision that I'm aiming at. Most corporations don't need one. The fact that Fullerites do proves my point about Fuller acting like a messiah. If Fuller's ideas were actually being used, they would have more effect on the course of events would they not? Ted Campbell New York City spy222@aol.com Internet Deprogrammer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 02:52:06 -0400 Reply-To: Spy 222 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spy 222 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Help Wanted Now everything is "eco-something". This is gibberish Ted Campbell New York City spy222@aol.com Internet Deprogrammer ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 05:51:02 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: ANDREW HERMETZ Organization: Wright State University, Dayton, Ohio 45435 Subject: Re: Natural Leadership *not* messiah Spy 222 (spy222@aol.com) wrote: > Since none of Bucky's disasters have ocurred, I am forced to assume that > they were not such a great possibility, ergo, in large part, media > hype--advertising. > Ted Campbell > New York City > spy222@alo.com I'd like to take this opportunity to weigh in on the "Bucky -- Messiah" issue. As Mr. Campbell has asserted (to the best of my knowledge) none of Bucky's predicted disasters occured, but in my mind that simply raises the question: Is that because of hype or that Bucky's ideas helped people to take the broad view. The argument is predicated on the basis of: 1) Bucky predicts disasters; 2) Disasters didn't happen; 3) Therefore, Bucky was wrong &/or irrelevant. This arguement doesn't take into account the man & his ideas in Universe. As a part of the Whole, Bucky's influence has to be accounted for, therefore, it is possible that his own actions could have altered things. This seems especially possible given his belief in reforming Enviornment over People. "Think it and they will use it." I guess it could be said that at the very beginning of my study of Bucky's work that I too suffered from a mild case of "Hero Worship". When I began seeing patterns in his work and finding things out for myself, I did all kinds of stupid things: told people Calculus was wrong; that Domes were prefurrable to boxes; etc. Basically, I started reciting things without understanding both sides of the issue. Now -- after some calculus and other learning -- I can better demonstrate to others where the real world and "objective reality" depart. Calculus isn't wrong, it's just a piece of a larger, incorrect, puzzle. Domes aren't always prefurred (especially for people with lots of money to waste keeping the things heated and cooled). After much more study and consideration, Bucky's work looks more and more like a man who has taken the time to understand how some of the most modern theories of science affect our "common, everyday" world. Its been my experience that lots of people know that physics has not found any "solid" matter and even accept this notion on the word of the scientists. Yet, it doesn't bother their everyday thoughts, because, well, "that's for them high-thinkin' sorts; not us regular folk." Even though it pertains to *all* of Universe. So, basically, I see Richard Buckminster Fuller the way most philosophers see Rene Descartes: someone who came along, asked some "simple, basic" questions, and changed the way (those who know of him) we see the World and Universe around us. Messiah -- no, in that he seems to have always spoken the truth about what he saw and thought, it appears unlikely that he would lie for some kind of gain. Besides, what kind of gain could he hope to aquire? He was always on the outside of what the Establishment thought was "correct". In order to profit by his work and reputation, he'd have had to totally junk his life's work and go with whatever the Mainstream thought was "important". Had he done so, this would appear to negate is original purpose and do great harm to his reputation. Who'd listen to some guy who sells out every time the winds change to make a buck? Followers? Why? What purpose would a group of hard-core "Bucky-Worshippers" serve to a man who was looking for ways to help everyone? Not to mention, with all of his traveling (and not making hoards of money), wouldn't a huge flock of "groupies" be a large burden? Besides, the object of the game is to use his work as the basis for further discovery -- "Think for yourself". Dogma is inheirently inflexible; Truth is universal. Peace, Andy Hermetz s009aeh@discover.wright.edu "I got your .sig right here, pal! Oh, and don't forget your disclaimer!" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 08:36:31 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David F. Watkins" Subject: Re: Help Wanted In-Reply-To: <3vhuf0$l0a@newsbf02.news.aol.com> On Mon, 31 Jul 1995, Spy 222 wrote: > None of the disaster that you have named come close to Bucky's statement > "it absolutely touch and go" unless your someone who is ACTUALLY on a > sinking ship. Are you saying that one should look out only for oneself? That when someone else's ship is sinking we simply ignore it? Certainly there are plenty of sinking ships on this planet. > Its this business about a higher vision that I'm aiming at. Most > corporations don't need one. The fact that Fullerites do proves my point > about Fuller acting like a messiah. If Fuller's ideas were actually being > used, they would have more effect on the course of events would they not? Having a higher vision is not sufficient qualification for messiahship. What is it about altrustic behaviour that you find so disturbing. > Ted Campbell > New York City > > spy222@aol.com > > Internet Deprogrammer I believe "Internet Reprogrammer" would be a more accurate description of what your trying. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 09:35:36 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Patrick Alessandra Jr." Subject: Re: Help Wanted Havn't we been told by the wise sage Monty Python that the true Helper always denies that he is there to help and that the false Helper demands that others need him .... obviously "No one expects -- well you know" -- "Oh my .. he uses.used AHHH sarcasm" %&U So what is "The Meaning of Life of Brian" anyway. Flying Circus, P ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 09:04:43 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Dr. Rick Kirschner" Subject: This isn't about Bucky! You just like to argue! Ted, you said: ----------------------------- Begin Original Text ----------------------------- Where is your evidence that there are changing weather patterns, deforestation and so on ----------------------------- End Original Text ----------------------------- I know you! You're past president of the flat earth society! You were the one demanding "Where's your evidence that the earth is round? Where's your evidence that the earth is not the center of the Universe? You need my help!" You don't want to help! You just like to argue. And, I notice that I hooked. My evidence? As a frequent flier, I have watched the progressive deforestation of Oregon, for one! For another, while visiting Costa Rica last year, we were informed that only 10% of the rain forest there is left, saved at the last minute by people who saw the deforestation happening for years but were shot down by folks like yourself who somehow found a way to deny the evidence all around them! There is one province in Costa Rica that has been virtually stripped of all of it's trees, and it has it's own unique weather pattern...dry and hot! Ranchers don't mind...they've taken it over for raising cattle. Meanwhile, the Pacific Northwest has run out of salmon (which used to run so thick you could cross a stream on their backs) because of damage done to the streams where they spawned by all the logging! As a person who loves to camp, I've observed over the last decade how it is getting increasingly difficult to find back country that hasn't been clear cut. And the weather all over the world is getting wierder and wierder....8 years of progressive drought in the Northwest, now the heat wave crushing the east coast and midwest, tornados where they've never been before, massive flooding worldwide... But hey, it doesn't matter how long of a list I make, does it? Because when your mind is like a trap, nothing gets in, and nothing gets out! I suggest you enjoy the heat, Ted! It's custom made for your edification! You said: >>Moreover, you think that the world needs your help since, "you are trying to make the world a better place." Do you have no concerns about the future? Then , I would guess, you have no children, and your parents failed to give you a sense of social obligation! Every generation makes the effort to leave a better world for the next. It has always been thus! My dad worked hard so his kids could go to college. His dad immigrated to the US so his children could grow up free! I don't want to call you selfish and self-centered, but it does seem to me that you are somehow oblivious to many of the basic values that sustain society, from native cultures to western and eastern. You said: >>Its this business about a higher vision that I'm aiming at. Most corporations don't need one. << Uh, ok Ted! But if you ever decide to investigate what's happening in the corporate world, you'll find mission and values statements behind virtually every successful corporation! I recently spoke at the Inc. 500 conference in Virginia, and had the opportunity to meet the leaders of the fastest growing small businesses in America. They are Vision-Driven! That's the only way they've found to motivate people to give their best! The flattening of organizations is evidence that pyramidal heirarchies based on turf battles and fear of losing job security just don't work anymore! (except for you...though darned if I know what experience you have in this arena to justify your viewpoint!) I'm dropping the thread here. You do a fine job of playing provocateur, but your 'logic' undoes you. Such a viewpoint regarding 'higher vision' must produce for you an unpleasant world into which your misery loves company. I'll leave it to Universe to change your environment enough to change your views! Cloaking device engaged!......... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 12:26:22 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: Bucky's flair for publicity Kirby Urner and/or Dawn Wicca wrote: >...The nude "barbie doll" went with Fuller's contention that his houses >would be so comfortable that future generations would get used to living >in them without clothing. "Barbie's Dymaxion Deamhouse"? I smell a lucrative licensing dealing brewing! Problem is, it would cut back on the sales of clothes for Barbie as Kirby and Dawn pointed out. This would be a real issue for Mattel. Walt wrote: >>...up until the failure of the Beech Aircraft project in Wichita, Fuller >>was every inch the industrialist and perfectly willing to profit from the >>Ford-ization of the housing industry. So where's the problem? The "Ford-ization" of the housing industry would have/will be a great gift to mankind, and anyone who does it is entitled to get filthy rich along the way. There is nothing wrong with making a living, and there is nothing wrong with making a big profit. The trick is to do something that has value, and make your profit in a manner that still delivers better value, even with profit margin included. The earth is populated by Scientists, who practice the art of infallibility, and Non-Scientists, who are taken in by it. James Fischer jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 12:26:24 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: Synergetic Atomic Model Galen wrote: >I am very much interested in a 3-d model that explains quantum physics. Good luck! The biggest problem will be the parts that must be in multiple places at the same time. Where DOES one attach them? Everywhere? What sort of glue does one use? Gluons? How does one hold all the quarks together? Quarkscrews? Of course, one problem with quantum physics is that we are not sure that things are operating only in 3 dimensions... >How does one model a spherical wave anyway? 1) Get a very, VERY small firecracker, with a very long fuse. A birthday candle makes an excellent "longer" time delay fuse. 2) Glue some plastic coffee-stirrer straws to the firecracker to create an assembly that looks like a "jack" from the child's game of jacks. The firecracker will be at the very center of the "jack". Use Elmer's, you don't want to create any unexpected chemical reactions... 3) Get a BIG zip-lock bag, and put the "jack" inside. 3a) The coffee straws keep the flame from melting the ziplock. 4) Get a box of fishing weights. 5) Get a 8mm video camera or two. Double-bag them in the biggest possible zip-lock bags. 6) Go down to the biggest pool in town. Pick the one with the highest diving board. Go after hours, and climb the fence if you must. Turn on the underwater lights for the pool. Bring bolt cutters for the padlock that is sure to be on the fuse panel/switch box. 7) Take the fishing weights, and keep adding them to the ziplock bag with the firecracker until you get neutral boyancy. 8) Place the video cameras so that they point towards the center of the deep end of the pool. Setting them on steps of ladders in the pool seems best. Turn them on. 9) Light the fuse, and QUICKLY: a) close the zip-lock b) swim down to the physical center of the "deep end" c) place the firecracker-zip-lock d) check to be sure it has neutral boyancy 10) Get the heck out of the pool! 11) The waves from your motion in the pool will settle down, and the firecracker will explode (IF you have a big enough zip-lock to hold enough air. You may want to do some math on this, just to be sure. Allow for lots of extra air for the explosion of the firecracker too.) 12) The resulting shock wave will move through the water in all directions from the firecracker, and the pool lights will show the spherical wave produced. The video cameras will be in no danger from the shock wave, so they will record the event. 13) Clean up the fragments of the ziplock, and leave a note and a $20 bill so they can buy a new padlock. Be sure to turn off the lights, and if you did not wear gloves, wipe your fingerprints off everything you touched. 14) Send a report of your exploits to this list. Those of us with advanced degrees will write your dean with our opinions of the grade you should get for this experiment. If anything goes amiss, send the tape to "America's Funniest Home Videos" (you [or your heirs] could win $10K!). If all goes well, send the tape to WGHB TV Boston - they just might make it into a new intro sequence for the "Nova" program. One could also use a large fish tank, but I have no experience with the sort of small-scale munitions that would allow the tank to survive the process. Perhaps pure sodium in a remote- controlled canister that you could open with a pushbutton? The earth is populated by Scientists, who practice the art of infallibility, and Non-Scientists, who are taken in by it. James Fischer jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 11:23:02 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Paul R. Kosuth" Subject: M.Python There is an earlier quote similar to the Monty python quote-- "He who knows doesn't speak, he who speaks doesn't know." Lau Tzu, Tao de Chang (I think) The discussion/arguing over messiah, sprirtualism,etc, is, to me, tangentially of interest to what Fuller has DONE. The point is, are his works relevant to what needs to be accomplished today ? It doesn't seem to matter whether his Lake Michigan experience is true or not, or simply an attempt by him to put things in perspective. Fuller read,said and built many things -- the artifacts. An artifact is a found result, something left over -- it isn't holy in any sense of the word -- can it be used, should it be used in present form or should it be changed to meet the current needs of society. Students of teachers need to go beyond what was taught by the teacher. We should not be looking at everthing Fuller did with awe and leave it untouched as if it were holy and untouchable. Everything Fulller said and did needs to evolve. To look at his works and view them as untouchable is a mistake. Just like 1700+ years of dogmatic connections with Euclidian geometry was a mistake -- things need to and will evolve. My 2 cents about the last couple of weeks discussion eminating from Campbells input: lets get on with solving problems and using Fullers ideas wherever and whenever they are needed, as well as the works of others. I do have a request-- I teach sci/math and will be doing and 8 week (1 double block per week) on Fuller, his life, geom, ideas, utility, etc. An outcome (artifact) will be the contruction of a 2 frequency geodesic dome for use as an oudoor work spcae. My request: What do you all think are the top 10 (to pick a number) ideas, concepts, big ideas that my stu should focus on and get from such an exposure ? thanks, Paul Kosuth prkosuth@prairienet.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:21:45 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Re: Barbie Fuller's Dymaxion Dreamhouse James, I was hoping we'd hear from you. Always a pleasure. In regard to your suggestion about the BFI / Mattel licensing for a "Barbie's Dymaxion Dreamhouse," that's a great idea. Maybe not the Dymaxion house, but a kit for a Geodesic Dream Dome Home, just a bunch of pink struts in a box. . . and you could say the same thing about Fuller's legacy as you could say on the box: "Some Assembly Required." And in regard to my assertion that up until Beech, RBF looked and acted and wrote like an industrialist, you responded this way: > So where's the problem? The "Ford-ization" of the housing industry would have/will be a great gift to mankind, and anyone who does it is entitled to get filthy rich along the way. There is nothing wrong with making a living, and there is nothing wrong with making a big profit. > The trick is to do something that has value, and make your profit in a manner that still delivers better value, even with profit margin included. No problem at all, except that RBF told us, after the fact, that he had committed his life's energy and intelligence to working for the good of mankind. This is not incompatible with making a lot of money, true. But to my mind, Fuller's activity and evident ambition during his 'industrialist' period if you want to call it that just doesn't square with his extended criticsm of financial capitalism and his statements like "you can't make money and make sense." Perhaps not everyone here knows that Fuller took great care with his patents from the beginning to make sure they were iron-clad. According to the Martin Pawley biography his royalty from those patents, especially the geodesic dome patents, had reached five or six figures yearly around the late 60's. (It was either the Pawley biography or the Calvin Trillin profile, sorry don't have my notes in front of me.) RBF did NOT bestow his patents on mankind as some might think. . . and I'm not faulting him for it. I'm just pointing out that he was careful with his patent rights, and he collected on them. As you said, there's nothing wrong with making a living. *Cloaking device engaged* :-) Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 18:17:45 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Frank Davis Subject: Re: Help Wanted In-Reply-To: from "David F. Watkins" at Jul 31, 95 08:36:31 am What is all this talk about messiahs, industry, Barbie Dolls? Pardon me and questions to ask as soon as I see that there are some people serious about this. If I am in the wrong group and ended up in a philosophy class by mistake, let me know. Only the group leader has said anything to me about domes (I will still be sending you the info we talked about, as time permits).Frank Willis Davis $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ WILLIS doing the best I can $ $ for the good of all $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$ * * * $ $ * *** * $ $ *********** $ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ Life can be great!! fdavis@holli.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 19:52:48 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider Subject: Re: Bucky's flair for publicity Spy 222 (spy222@aol.com) wrote: > The question: "Does Humanity really need Buckminster Fuller's help?" > needs to be asked. Buckminster Fuller and his followers take the answer: > "Humanity does need our help," for granted. I don't think that Bucky would answer "Yes, Humanity needs OUR help" to your question. I know I wouldn't be so presumtious as to assume that humanity needs _my_ help. I do not think that Fuller's stories about the plight of Humanity and "Utopia or Oblivion" were requests for social, political, or religious authority to "Save the World". Rather I think Fuller's message is that we ought to think about our values and our actions and about how these impinge upon the planet as a whole. [Deletions] > Ted Campbell > New York City -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com (finger me!) | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Design Science Revolutionary http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf | Explorer in Universe "Dare to be Naive" -- Bucky Fuller | Linux Advocate ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 20:55:01 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider Subject: Re: Natural Leadership *not* messiah Spy 222 (spy222@aol.com) wrote: > Since none of Bucky's disasters have ocurred, I am forced to assume that > they were not such a great possibility, ergo, in large part, media > hype--advertising. I've had occassion recently to think about why complex systems are more robust that they should be (rather more robust than I think they should be :). I'm involved in several efforts that have so many internal contradictions that I'm surprised they have survived for so long! Like alcoholics and coke users who don't die ... for years. Similarly our "diseased" planet has manged to trudge on (and improve in many ways recently) in spite of all the problems. My conclusion is that people like Bucky provide an advanced warning system. From the time of their alerts there is a grace period before utter oblivion. But if we don't think about and begin to solve the problems that our advanced warning systems alert us to now ... > I like the world just the way it is. To quote Bucky, "I wouldn't change > anything." > Ted Campbell > New York City > spy222@alo.com -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com (finger me!) | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Design Science Revolutionary http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf | Explorer in Universe "Dare to be Naive" -- Bucky Fuller | Linux Advocate