From MAILER-DAEMON@netaxs.com Thu Nov 16 13:12:04 1995 Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [128.205.2.1]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id NAA21103 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:12:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199511161812.NAA21103@access.netaxs.com> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5830; Thu, 16 Nov 95 13:10:09 EST Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3121; Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:04:35 -0500 Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 13:04:23 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8b)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9509" To: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 17:23:16 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Alessandra Subject: Peace Strategy Game Comments: To: futurework@csf.colorado.edu Comments: cc: theos-l@vnet.net, ncmo-l-request@wice.xs4all.nl, BRIDGE-L@ucsbvm.ucsb.edu, MEDITATION@utmb.edu, celestine-l@newciv.org, wholesys-l@netcom.com, learning-org@world.std.com ADI -- Advanced Strategy Game -- "The Art of Peace" ADI was developed with the hope that the vast amount of thought and time spent on competitive games (war strategy, etc.) could be spent on an equally challenging art of peace strategy game. ADI v.1.8 is now available in the Entertainment forums on Compuserve and America OnLine and at http://www.newciv.org/ADI/ "ADI may be one of the most advanced strategy games ever created -- with the simplest rules! ADI includes all of the strategic adventure of GO and Chess as well as the philosophy of the most ancient Sanskrit Tibetan culture. ADI uses the same board and stones as GO." P. Alessandra email: aprioripa@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Sep 1995 12:21:52 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Why 360 degrees? Antiprimes ANTIPRIMES or VERSATILE NUMBERS by Bill Lauritzen If we compare the number 12 with the number 14, along the lines of addition, we see that the the number of ways to split the numbers into two parts is generally determined by the size of the number. In other words, 14 can be written as 1+ 13, 2 + 12, 3 + 11, 4 + 10, 5 + 9, 6 + 8, and 7+7. Whereas 12 can be written only as 1 + 11, 2 + 10, 3 + 9, 4 + 8, 5 + 7, and 6 + 6. When we compare 12 and 14 with regard to mutiplication, an entirely different story emerges. Fourteen can be written as 1 x 14 and 2 x 7 only. Twelve can be written as 1 x 12, 2 x 6, and 3 x 4. The smaller number can be split in more ways. We say fourteen has four "factors," while twelve has six. I am very interested in numbers with relatively large numbers of factors, as these numbers have a great deal of social usefulness. They can be applied in business, science, military, in fact, in every area of human endeavor that employs numbers. (I discuss this in greater detail in the booklet, NATURE'S NUMBERS and the video NUMBERS OF THE FUTURE.) Although later I will rigorously define these numbers, for now, for the sake of convenience, let's call them versatile numbers. Imagine a leader with an army of 360 versus a leader with an army of 375. The number of factors of 360 is 24. The number of factors of 375 is 8. That means that the leader of the 360 army can divide his troops into 24 different equal groups, while the other leader has only 8 choices. For example, they face each other across a field. Leader(360) says, "Split the men into two groups." This they easily do. The lieutenant for the other group reports to leader(375) that the 360 group seems to be splitting into two separate groups and marching to their flanks. The leader(375) says, "Then split our men also into two groups." The lieutenant runs off to carry out his order, but then returns and says, "Sir, we cannot split into two even groups." They get into a discussion about this with leader(375) finally loosing his patience and shooting the lieutenant. Meanwhile the 360 group has moved to the flanks and is preparing an attack. The 360 group has a subtle but definite advantage in manuevering. We could make up less dramatic examples from business: How many should I import? How many should I export? How many should I manufacture? Or from science and mathematics: How should I divide up space-time, matter, and energy for measuring? How should I pack numbers together into groups? (In other words, how should I divide up "infinity.") Or from education: How many students should I have in a class? The fact is that IT IS EASIER TO SHARE OR DISTRIBUTE VERSATILE NUMBERS than any other kind of numbers. If there is a shortage of something (such as food) on one side of the globe and a surplus of something (such as food) on another, it is to humanity's advantage to be able to distribute efficiently and easily. It appears from Darwin's Theory of Evolution that a small advantage, over time, can lead to the extinction of the competitors. I believe this same mechanism operates in this situation. In other words, a business with a small advantage (such as the liberal use of versatile numbers) will, other things being equal, have a better chance of survival. I see here a loose parallel to the history of psychology. Sigmund Freud and others intently studied psychotic and neurotic behavior, or aberrated personalities. This of course can give a skewed view of human nature. Abraham Maslow decided to study healthy people or what he called "self-actualized" people. This provided a more balanced view and eventually resulted in a new branch of psychology called humanistic psychology. I believe that mathematicians have studied numbers with a minimum of factors (primes), while, to some degree, ignoring numbers with large numbers of factors. Here's a sample factor table: number factors number of factors 1 1x1 1 2 1x2 2 3 1x3 2 4 1x4 2x2 3 5 1x5 2 6 1x6 2x3 4 7 1x7 2 8 1x8 2x4 4 9 1x9 3x3 3 10 1x10 2x5 4 11 1x11 2 12 1x12 2x6 3x4 6 Loosely, I define rigid numbers as those having a minimum of factors (primes), and versatile numbers as those having a relative maximum of factors. Sometimes, I call these versatile numbers "antiprimes," as this communicates quicky. However, I believe the word "prime" has some disadvantages. "Prime" usually implies some excellence or value. This word I think helps put undue emphasis on these numbers. Of course it's true that every non-rigid (composite) number can be expressed as the product of primes. In one sense, primes are the building material of the other numbers. BUT WHAT GOOD IS BUILDING MATERIAL WITHOUT A BUILDING? Do we call our cathedrals and other great works of architecture merely "composites"? Do we study primarily (no pun intended) our building materials and secondarily our building? Or, is it not true that we should be most concerned with our shelters, and as a result of that be interested in what they are of made of? I define three classes of versatile numbers: 1) versatile (antiprime): a number that has a greater than or equal number of factors to every smaller number. These are the first few versatiles (the number of factors is in parenthesis): 1(1), 2(2), 4(3), 6(4), 8(4), 10(4), 12(6), 18(6), 20(6), 24(8), 30(8), 36(9), 48(10), 60(12), 72(12), 84(12), 90(12), 96(12), 108(12), 120(16), 168(16), 180(18),... I believe that these numbers, like primes, can not be predicted by any formula. Another characteristic that they share with primes, is that they become less frequent as they get larger. 2) leading versatile (leading antiprime): a number that has a greater number of factors than any smaller number. Whenever the number of factors from the list above jumps, we designate a leading versatile. This is a more exclusive class. Here are the first few leading versatiles: 1(1), 2(2), 4(3), 6(4), 12(6), 24(8), 36(9), 48(10), 60(12), 120(16), 180(18), 240(20), 360(24), 720(30), 840(32), 1260(36), 1680(40), 2520(48), 5040(60), ... It's facinating to try to look for patterns in these, but, I believe there are none. For a while I thought that there was a prime next to every leading versatile except for 120. [This holds true up to 25,200(90).] I calculated these numbers with a computer program up to 110 880(144). (There's thirty of them up to that number.) 3) dominant versatile (dominant antiprime): a number that has a greater number of factors than any number from zero up to double itself. Here are the first dominant versatiles: 1(1), 2(2), 6(4), 12(6), 60(12), 360(24), 2520(48), ? In other words 60 has more factors than the 59 numbers on either side of it. It is a MIDPOINT of a REGION or range OF NUMBERS over which it dominates with regard to versatility. Also I was somewhat excited to see that three of these numbers were ones that the Babylonians had choosen at the (apparent) dawn of civilization with which to divide up the heavens, the circle, time, and infinity (their number system was a base 60 system). (The Babylonian day had 12 hours not 24.) This base 60 grouping has been a mystery and we find Oystein Ore (Number Theory and its History) writing, "It is difficult to explain the reasons for such a large unit group." One hypothesis for why the Babylonians picked these groupings is that they come from astronomy. However, note that 365.25 (days per year) and 12.4 (lunar months per year) are the only astronomical numbers close to dominant versatiles. A strict astronomical hypothesis, I think, is wrong. I suggest that the Babylonians chose 12, 60, and 360 partly because of the closeness of 12.4 and 365.25 and partly because these numbers have relative large numbers of factors. It's possible that the Babylonians were aware of the class of numbers I call "dominant versatiles." It may be a very fortuitous astronomical circumstance that we have 12.4 months and 365.25 days per year. Some have suggested that human civilization was stimulated by the apparent closeness in size in the sky of our moon to the sun which leads to the magnificent solar eclipse. Perhaps the closeness in size of 12.4 and 365.25 to dominant versatile numbers also stimulated the rise of human civilization. Perhaps this is part of the reason that so far SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) has failed. Our unique moon/earth system may have led us to technological advances ahead of other (hypothetical) planetary life forms. Of course this is no argument for stopping SETI. I am much in favor of this program. There are potentially a vast number of possible ET (extraterrestrial) civilizations, and the possible gains to be made from making ET radio contact are extremely high. Although I had written some simple computer programs to calculate versatiles, I have an old computer, and it took all night for it to run up to 110 880. I needed a faster computer to find out whether there were more dominant antiprimes. While looking for a faster computer, I began to wonder if anyone had studied this number phenomena before. I had read several popular books on mathematics, but had never seen anything like this. In the library, I found that traditional mathematics has divided numbers up into perfect numbers, deficient numbers, and abundant numbers: 1) abundant number: the sum of the factors of a number, except for itself, is greater than itself. The first few are: 12(6), 18(6), 20(6), 24(8), 28(6), 30(8), 36(9), 40(8), 42(8), 48(10), 54(8), 56(8), 60(12), 66(8), 70(8), 72(12), 78(8), 80(10), 84(12), 88(8), 90(12), ... 2) perfect number: the sum of the factors of a number, except for itself, equals itself. The first few are: 6, 28, 496, 8128, 33 550 336, 8 589 869 056, 137 438 691 328, ... 3) deficient number: the sum of the factors of a number, except for itself, is less than itself. This includes all the numbers not listed in the first two definitions. When and why did the "abundant, perfect, deficient" paradigm begin? Euclid, around 300 BC defines a perfect number as "that which is equal to its own parts." Nicomachus, around 100 AD, adds to this definitions for "even abundant" and "even deficient" numbers. He compares abundant numbers to an animal with "too many parts or limbs, with ten tongues, as the poet says, and ten mouths, or with nine lips, or three rows of teeth...". A deficient number is said to be as though "one should be one handed, or have fewer than five fingers on one hand, or lack a tongue...". Perfect numbers,he says, are akin to "wealth, moderation, propriety, beauty, and the like...". In more recent times, L.E. Dickson, in 1952, (Theory of Numbers), gives an extensive history of number theory. However, in the very first paragraph of the first book he defines abundant, perfect, and deficient numbers as if they had always existed. It's almost as if they were handed down from some divine entity. But these categories must have started somewhere, and for some reason. But where? Richard Friedberg, in 1968, (An Adventurer's Guide to Number Theory) implies that Pythagorus, around 600 BC, knew these three classes. Friedberg also suggests that these classes developed because the Eqyptians never wrote fractions such as 11/12. Instead they would write 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/12, never putting anything but a "1" in the numerator. Also they never used the same denominator more than once. As a result all the perfect numbers can be split up "perfectly." Six can be split into 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/6 or 6/6. However, 10 can be split up only into 1/5 + 1/2 or 7/10. It's a "deficient" number. Twelve can be split up into 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + 1/6 or 14/12. Twelve is "abundant." If Frieberg is correct, since we don't use Egyptian fractions anymore, these numbers and their names are somewhat of an anachronism. In any case, I would suggest the name "factor sum" for "perfect number." In our OWN number system, using OUR fractions, perfect numbers are not so perfect. It can be seen that abundant numbers are more inclusive than versatiles. I must say I don't like the name "abundant number." To the uninitiated, it implies simply a large number. I believe "antiprime" or "versatile" to be much more descriptive. I call these "abundant" numbers "flexible" numbers. Also in the library, I located an astonishing article published in 1915 (Proceedings of the London Mathematical Society, Vol 14) in which the great Indian mathematician Srinivasa Ramanujan analyzes what he calls "Highly Composite Numbers." Although Ramanujan studied mathematics extensively in India, his only exposure to modern European mathematics (of his time) was one book on mathematics. He single-handedly re-derived much of modern (1915) mathematics (and a good deal more) by himself. His story is a facinating one. Here's his definition of a "highly composite number": "I define a highly composite number as a number whose number of divisors [factors] exceed that of all its predecessors." This class of number is exactly what I call a leading versatile number. (In mathematical language: the number n is called highly composite if d(m) < d(n) for all m < n where d(n) is the number of divisors [factors] of n.) The term "highly composite" is descriptive to someone trained in mathematics, however, I believe the terms "leading versatile" and "leading antiprime" are more descriptive, and should be used in order to communicate to the largest number of people the character and usefuless of these kinds of numbers. Ramanujan was always looking for new ways to do things. He may have not known of the traditional mathematical paradigm (of abundant, perfect, and deficient numbers). Or if he did, he decided to explore on his own, and discovered and classified "highly composite" numbers. As he says in his now somewhat famous letter to England in 1913, "I have not trodden through the conventional regular course which is followed in a University course, but am striking out a new path for myself." Let me give you some idea of the magnitude of his mathematical genius. With the help of a computer which calculated all night, I had determined the first 30 leading versatiles up to 110 880 (144 factors). Without the use of a computer, Ramanujan had calculated all the leading versatiles up to 6 746 328 388 800 (10 080 factors)! I was stunned. I could hardly believe my eyes. I quickly looked through his table to see if there were any more dominant versatile numbers. No. There were none. In fact by analyzing all this information, Ramanujan was able to prove that the ratio of two consecutive leading versatile numbers tends to unity (two successive leading versatiles are asymptotically equivalent). This means that as the leading versatiles get larger, there is less and less chance of there being another dominant versatile number. In effect, there are no more. He came to a similar conclusion to mine regarding predicting versatile numbers: "I do not know of any method for determining consecutive highly composite numbers except by trial." He describes another class of numbers, which he called by the awkward sounding "superior highly composite numbers." Compared to versatile numbers, it's definition is just as awkward: A number n may be said to be a superior highly composite if there exists a positive number x, such that d(n)/(n^x) >= d(n')/(n'^x) for all values of n' less than n, and d(n)/(n^x) > d(n')/(n'^x) for all values of n' greater than n. The first few are: 2, 6, 12, 60, 360, 2520, 5040, 55440, 720 720, 1 441 440, 4 324 320, ... As you can see, with the exception of "1", which could arguably be included, his first six "superior highly composite numbers" are identical to "dominant versatiles." Whether he noticed the classification of what I call dominant versatiles, I do not know. In English this mathematical expression above could be written like this: "A number may be said to be a superior highly composite number if their exists some positive exponent, such that the ratio of the number of divisors of the number to the number raised to that exponent is greater than or equal to the ratio of the number of divisors of any smaller number to the smaller number raised to that exponent, and the ratio of the number of divisors of the number to the number raised to that exponent is greater than the ratio of the number of divisors of any larger number to the larger number raised to that exponent." Still don't get it? Don't worry. It's not exactly obvious. But Ramanujan's incredibly pure mathematical mind managed to ferret out and symbolize the above rather hidden relationship. In fact, a pure mathematician might look at this feat with the same awe that a musician might regard a Beethovan composition. I prefer to call "superior highly composite numbers" by the name "superior versatile numbers." Domiant versatiles compose the first seven of these. In summary, here is a possible scale of versatility: VERSATILITY (ANTIPRIME) SCALE 6 Dominant versatile (the first seven of the superior versatile) 5 Leading versatile (also known as Ramanujan's highly composite) 4 General versatile 3 Flexible (also known as abundant numbers) 2 Semi-rigid (semi-prime) (also known as deficient numbers) 1 Prime (rigid) The numbers on the left (1-6) are somewhat arbitrary. I left off the scale Ramanujan's "superior highly composite numbers" because they are so difficult to define (except to perhaps a pure mathematician). This does not mean the superior versatile series is not of interest. It may have some significant applicability. However, at present, I am primarily interested in defining numbers which the public, legislators, and mathematics teachers can easily remember and use. In other words, I am interested in large scale social application. I believe all of the definitions of the numbers on this scale could be understood and remembered by an average 12-year-old. Since there are only seven dominant versatile numbers (if we include 1), we have a loose analogy to the five Platonic solids: the tetrahedron (four-corners), the octahedron (six-corners), the cube (eight-corners), the icosahedron (twelve-corners), and the dodecahedron (twenty-corners). Euclid proved, at the end of his book (The Elements), one of the most popular books of all time, that there can be only five of these figures. Notice that the number of corners of these figures are all versatile numbers. It was the partly due to my study of these figures that I discovered versatile numbers. In addition, so much of geometry and mathematics is potentially infinite in its process, I was facinated when I discovered that there were only five of these figures. This fact may have led me to wonder if there were only seven dominant versatiles. Although Ramanujan made a great breakthough in our knowledge concerning versatiles in 1915, has this information found itself into the mainstream of society? Have the public and legislators used this information to bring about ease of computation and distribution? The answer must be a resounding "no," and then some. G .W. Hardy, the brilliant British mathematician who brought Ramanujan to England, in 1917 (see Collected Papers of G.W. Hardy, Vol. VII), called Ramanujan's paper "... the largest and perhaps the most important connected piece of work which he has done since his arrival in England." Ramanujan died in 1920, and Hardy went on to live many more years, until 1947. I wondered why Hardy did not try to apply this work to society. However, Hardy himself answers this question "If asked to explain how, and why, the solution of the problems which occupy the best energies of my life is of importance to the general life of the community, I must decline the unequal contest." (in The Man Who Knew Infinity by Kanigel) It's possible that Ramanujan, in an effort to impress his European counterparts, simply went too far with his "superior highly versatile numbers." Knowledge that is complex and difficult to remember has questionable usefulness in my mind. This raises many questions concerning the relationship between mathematicians (and scientists) and the rest of society that supports them. For example, whose responsibility is it to take the products of mathematical intelligence and apply them to society? This and other questions are beyond the scope of this article. Meanwhile the metric 10 and its powers, although not versatile, have since become more widespread. In 1971, the British switched from half-pennies, pennies, threepence, sixpence, shillings, half-crowns, pounds, and guineas (a 1/2, 1, 3, 6, 12, 30, 240, 252, system which uses all versatile numbers except for 1/2 and 252--but if you double them all, then they are all versatile), to a decimal, semi-rigid, monetary system. The versatile numbers were in use when London was the foremost financial center of the world. The English system of measurement with 12 inches to the foot was in use when the US put a man on the moon. Now the US is trying to go to a non-versatile metric system. It's a noble goal to align all your measuring systems with your number system, and those who have tried to do so should be thanked for their efforts. However measurements should be derived from a dominant versatile number. Why haven't versatile numbers, in a sense the great cathedrals of all our numbers, been more intensively studied and taught? I believe we've been surrounded by versatile numbers for so long (months, seconds, minutes, hours, dozens, grosses, feet, six-packs, twelve-packs, twelve notes, twelve pence, etc.) that we have forgotten about them. And even if one does discover them, they are an embarassment to a society that uses "ten," a semi-rigid number, as the core of its number system. The numbers 1, 2, 6, 12, 60, 360, and 2520 are unique and should be committed to memory. I believe that businessmen, politicians, military leaders, in fact, all school children should know these numbers as well as they now know their times tables. I believe that school children should be able to define and list versatile numbers, leading versatile numbers, and dominant versatile numbers as well as they do prime (rigid) numbers. They should also be taught to use versatile numbers in real situations as mentioned at the beginning of this article. In the long term, our numbering system should have a versatile number at its core rather than a non-versatile number. In the booklet NATURE'S NUMBERS and in the video NUMBERS OF THE FUTURE, I discuss this further, and also propose what I believe are more efficient, easily learned numbering systems derived from versatile numbers. (c) July 1995 revised Aug 1995 by Bill Lauritzen (constructive comments and suggestions welcomed.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 04:54:37 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: The Butterfly Organization: Evolutionary Acceleration, Inc. Subject: Need to get copy of Medard Gabel's "Energy, Earth, and Everyone"... I would like to get copies of both "Energy, Earth, and Everyone" and "Ho-Ping, Food for Everyone", by Medard Gabel of the World Game Laboratory. I remember having to jump through hoops at interlibrary loan to get them in college. Are they in print again, by any chance? Medard, I beleive you're on this list occasionally. If you you or anyone else has info (or extra copies to sell), please drop me a line. Thanks in advance! -- Pat ______________________________Think For Yourself_______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury Web: http://www.visionware.com/pat.html Mail with "send-file-info-please" in subject line to get my public-files list. ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 20:22:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Mazur Organization: Primenet Subject: Re: Why 360 degrees? Antiprimes wlauritzen@aol.com (WLauritzen) wrote: >In the long term, our numbering system should have a versatile number at >its >core rather than a non-versatile number. In the booklet NATURE'S NUMBERS >and >in the video NUMBERS OF THE FUTURE, I discuss this further, and also >propose >what I believe are more efficient, easily learned numbering systems >derived >from versatile numbers. 1. The small example above, your last paragraph, shows how trashed your formatting is getting. I suggest asking AOL for some help. 2. You're not exactly on untrodden ground here. I suggest you read any or all of Martin Gardner's books. Ivars Peterson is also good. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 21:02:05 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Why 360 degrees? Antiprimes Walt, I'm aware that formatting is a problem. I don't know that AOL can help me but I'll check into it. Re your suggestion that Ivars peterson and Martin Gardner have investigated this area: I've read one of Ivars Perterson's books, but saw nothing relating to what I am discussing. I've have looked through several of Martin Gardner's books and have seen also nothing there that relates to what I am discussing. I will check these two authors again as I want to be as thorough as possible in my research, however, if you know of some specific passages from their books that might be relevant to my paper than I would appreciate your assistance. Of course in my book "Nature's Numbers" I refer to the Dozenal Society" formerly the "Duodecimal Society" of which Issac Asimov was a member, however I only came across them after I began to reseach a dozenal base. Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 02:23:44 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: More on DIMENSION in Synergetics After reading Gerald's on xyz in SYNERGETICS-L ... This is a long one, so skim, print, or file for later. You might get too many cathode rays if you read it all on screen. Kirby -------------------------- SYNERGETICS 101: THE CONCEPT OF DIMENSION Curriculum Notes by Kirby Urner, 9-4-95 With synergetics, we're programming our imaginations directly, and having close-packed spheres, their ivm framework, how tetras and octas come from that etc. is very easy to conceptualize given synergetics as a descriptive definition. When we turn to coordinates, we fall back on xyz to describe those sphere centers etc. but we didn't really need n-tuple coordination at all, numeric or otherwise, to get across the basic synergetics, which is why these concepts can be taught to kindergarteners with marbles and toothpicks, paper models etc, who have never heard of xyz, number lines, vectors or all that stuff. Synergetics gets a lot more across, imagination-to- imagination, with a few models, some description, than we can do with equivalent tools, talking closest-packed cubes, or mutually orthogonal axes. The latter will get you to rectilinear buildings ala greek temples, but not to the octet truss or geodesic dome. Historically, the attaching of dimension to the 3 orthogonal axes is not what came first. People talked about dimensionless points long before Descartes. Even if xyz is a useful notation and computer logic for mapping points, writing algorithms, it needn't interfere with simpler ideas about dimension. If instead of points, lines and planes we talked about grains, rods, boards lumps, poles, sheets we could still play all our xyz games. We'd have a conceptual space where no object was of different dimension than any other. The space is volumetric and its occupants have all the dimensions that volume does, however many. Some may claim they can point in one direction and say "this direction is conceptually separable from two others" but I find it easier to think "conceptual space is thick, is volumetric, and this is irreducible; even when I imagine a fix, supposedly without volume, I'm thinking of it with the space around it, ergo I haven't created an experience of zero dimensions". And then I can go right ahead and play with xyz until my heart's content, never giving another thought to whether the space I'm in is "3 dimensional" or not. Sure, people come along and say, 'well it only takes 3 numbers [and a reference frame, anchored to an origin] to specify a point, ergo space is 3d'. But in computer memory, the ivm spheres with integer coordinates are all saved in memory, serially addressable. You can think of x,y,z as a single number x.y.z. Of course that's not necessarily useful, but the point is not to get too hung up on the language game, making it mean more than it has to vis-a-vis dimension. As a database programmer, I use n-tuple tables all the time. Sometimes it takes 5 or 6 unique pieces of information to identify a unique record in a table. So are heart operations in regional hospital networks inherently 5d notation to prove that conceptual space is really 4d. 4d simply refers to the tetrahedron, and everything in it, including grains, rods and boards, which may be set up for play, without affecting the basic 4dness/tetrahedralness of the sponsoring container. If we think of a point moving around in a tetrahedron, obviously we can draw lines perpendicular to any 3 noncoplanar tetrahedron edges and come up with coordinates for that point. A trival transformation takes to/from the equivalent . But we cannot build an enclosure with fewer the 6 edges, so whereas we can describe the position of the enclosed point with , we still have a complementary zigzag of the other 3 noncoplanar edges (a tetrahedron consists of 2 3-edge zigzags). Remember, describes a point relative to an apparatus of sticks oriented as the center of an octahedron, or connecting the opposite midfaces of a cube. So its really PLUS the rest of the conceptual apparatus that describes the point's relative position. Where I think Cartesianism and Fullerism divide, is not so much with the coordinates, as with the notion of infinity. Descartes puts us in an infinite volume, with his number lines going off to infinity in all directions, so it never occurs to us to ask 'what is the shape of this container we're in' -- the question is literally 'out of bounds'. But that's somewhat counterintuitive, to think we have to fit 'infinity' into our imaginations. Fuller is more practical, realistic, to my way of thinking. He allows space to be an enclosure, to be finite. So he "puts the lid on it" where Cartesians are just supposed to think vaguely about infinite spheres or expanding cubes or something, whereas Fuller gives us something very definite to think about, and plus doesn't push us into accepting "things" called points that have no dimension, and lines made from stringing together infinite numbers of these infinitely nonexistent beads, and planes made from taking lines of no thickness, and laying them next to each other to somehow get boards, which are in turn infinitely thin, but somehow manage to stack into cubes. To me, that whole mind game is hard to make kids swallow (I was a math teacher once, thru calculus), and is unneeded, even if we want to keep xyz. I find Fuller's paradigm actually easier to work with, and would like to see the emphasis on 'infinitely small and infinitely large' given a lot less emphasis, especially in the early years. Kirby ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 03:10:47 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Building Versatile Numbers from Primal Scratch wlauritzen@aol.com (WLauritzen) wrote: > ANTIPRIMES or VERSATILE NUMBERS >by Bill Lauritzen Bill, I found your paper very well written and extremely fascinating. A real pleasure! Thank you for sharing it on GEODESIC. Of course my mind immediately leaps to Fuller's Scheherazade numbers. This was a guy who worked in meatpacking and accounting in the pre-computer days and knew a lot of bookkeeping tricks for dealing with numbers etc. and his whole section on indigs has that kind of industrial, math-in-the-real-world quality, which you find so lacking on mathematic's lack of interest in 'versatile numbers' (great nomenclature, really well-chosen). Fuller also took an industrial 'lets make versatile numbers' approach, setting about to synthesize highly divisible numbers by stuffing a lot of primes into them (but other properties were important too, giving a class of number called the Scheherazades, which I do not feel competent to define simply right now, much tho I wish). Your paper accounts a factor as any integer divisor with no remainder. Another treatment counts only unique prime factors. Another treatment counts all prime factors, even if the same one is used more than once. So we can have functions AF (all factors), UPF (unique prime factors) and APF (all prime factors). Obviously, from APF, we can deduce AF, simply taking all combinations of the APF output, and eliminating the duplicates. Fuller also looks for 'mirrors' in his Scheherazade numbers. His 'mirror' concept is a bit off-beat, given his propensity to add adjacent digits into indigs e.g. 859 mirror 4720 in his Nine-illion Scheherazade Number: 1 8 5 , 9 5 8 , 8 0 6 , 6 5 8 , 6 5 8 , 6 0 8 , 2 9 4 , 7 2 0 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 0 He analyzes his seven-illion (alternative nomenclature to mill bill trill... count the number of 3-digit groups between commas, following the first, possibly incomplete group). Scheherazade thusly: 2 4 3 2 4 3 1 2 1 5 1 2 1 5 2 4 3 2 4 3 + 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ------------------------------------------------------- = 0 0 0 0 0 2 4 4 2 1 7 4 3 2 4 3 1 2 1 5 2 4 3 0 0 0 0 0 Fifth powering of 3 is big here: 243=3^5, 1215=5*3^5 The APF(S7) = each of the first seven primes 5 times each, where S7=24,421,743,243,121,524,300,000 What does this all mean. Don't know. The indigs material is very difficult for me. But I couldn't resist pointing out what I see as points in common between your research and Fuller's, especially your shared focus on coming up with numbers of utilitarian value (Fuller hoped to get his giant integers into the business of doing integer-based trigonometry: high precision sine and cosine with a unit circle of S7 'degrees'). Kirby ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 23:45:00 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Antiprimes or Versatile Numbers (cont.) Kirby Urner wrote: "Bill, I found your paper very well written and extremely facinating. A real pleasure! Thank you for sharing it on GEODESIC." Kirby, Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate the praise. It seems I get a lot of harping criticism which is sometimes a pain to answer. As far as the Scheherazade numbers, I know what you mean that they are sometimes hard to follow. However, my main interest right now is in promoting Versatile Numbers. Like Fuller I have some business experience. At one time I sold items door-to-door here in LA for a living. I believe that among other things has given a practical bent to my research. The Dominant Versatile numbers which I define in my paper: 1, 2, 6, 12, 60, 360, and 2520, can, as I said, be very useful to society as they can be shared or distributed in so many different ways. You might be interested in getting my video, NUMBERS of the FUTURE, which I am selling now for only 4.95. (assuming I have the time to keep making copies for people.) Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 14:14:55 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Antiprimes or Versatile Numbers (cont.) Kirby, The idea of "sacred geometry" is interesting to me too. However, "sacred" as I understand it means complex mathematical or scientific knowledge that the priests didn't have time to teach to all the people, hence they told them it was "sacred", and "therefore don't mess with these rocks which we've spent months lining up exactly to predict various celestial events." The video "NUMBERS OF THE FUTURE" is available as I said for $4.95. However, please send 2.00 additional for postage and handling. (if you live in CA add 8.25%, but since you don't don't worry about it.) Bill Lauritzen 809-D East Garfield Glendale, CA 91205 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 14:24:56 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Antiprimes or Versatile Numbers (cont.) Dear Walt, A couple of points. Switching from our decimal system to a dozenal or sexigesimal system would undoutbly present some difficuties. It was not easy switching from Roman to Hindu-Arabic. Or from Egyptian to Greek or from Babylonian to Greek or from Mayan to Hindu-Arabic. All growth is sometimes painful. Perhaps you recall that Hindu-Arabic numerals were made illegal in 1299. People fight change even when it is good for them. The fact that the conversion would require changing electronics equipment would present no difficulties as electronic equipment changes so rapidly anyway. I know that computers use a base two system. My belief is that eventually, although I don't know the exact details, we could design computers that use other bases, perhaps using so called "fuzzy logic" or probabilistic logic if you prefer. The fact the the human biocomputer can compute with a base ten system, using an electronic core, is interesting to me. Perhaps the higher bases are like higher level computer languages. It is fairly clear that a base two system is extremely awkward for human use. You keep mentioning that Mr. Gardener and Mr. Peterson know quite a bit about factors and primes. Well, I don't doubt that. Whether they have translated this into any socially useful knowlege is another question. I have sent my paper and video to Mr. Peterson and so far he has not responded, although I think eventually he will. I will be happy to send a copy to Mr. Gardener, but I do not know his address. I plan on posting this paper to the Skepics Newsgroup so perhaps he will see it there and you and I can see his exact response to my paper. If you want to see any an easy and efficient dozenal number system that I invented as well as a simple base 60, base 360, and base 2520 system, then I suggest that you buy my tape "Numbers of the Future." I am selling it now for only $4.95. The fact that these numbers, (of things), can be shared or distributed easier than non-versatile numbers (of things) such as 10 makes them of great concern to humankind. To me, with my several years worth of experience in sales and business, the fact that some authors (I think Gauss) suggested using prime numbers as a base is somewhat ludricrious. The Versatile Numbers and the Dominant Versatile Numbers (1, 2, 6, 12, 60, 360, 2520) which I define mathematically and simply, I have never seen defined as such except somewhat in the work of Ramanujan as I mention in my paper. If you know of another author who has done so, then please state exactly where. Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 11:13:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert W. Gray (by way of pdx4d@teleport.com Kirby Urner)" Subject: 4D: "Integer" coordinates After reading gerald-de-jong's synergetics-l note of 9-2-95 in which he gives simple integer (x, y, z) coordinates for the tetrahedron, octahedron, cuboctahedron, icosahedron, pentagonal dodecahedron, and in a later note, the A and B quantum modules (the B q.m. needs to be revised from the original note) I decided to look at all the major polyhedra in Fuller's Synergetics to see if they can all be described in simple integer (x, y, z) coordinates. NOTE: simple integer coordinates for the 5-fold symmetry polyhedra (icosahedron, pentagonal dodecahedron) means I am using integer multiples or powers of p = (1 + sqrt(5))/2 which is not an integer.) I provide my results (so far) below. It is as yet incomplete, but I thought I should get the info out anyway and ask for some help for the remaining polyhedra I have not filled in. After completing the list (as far as it goes) I thought of the following theorems. Comments/suggestions/additions to this work is welcomed. 1) Theorem: The vertices of *all* the A and B quantum modules in the Isotropic Vector Matrix (IVM) can be given integer cartesian (x, y, z) coordinates. Proof: I prove this by listing the (x, y, z) coordinates to all the A and B quantum module vertices within a regular tetrahedron-octahedron face-bond pair. It is clear that the rest of the IVM can be generated by translation in integer steps of this pair. Regular Tetrahedron vertex coordinates 1: ( 0, 0, 0) 2: ( 6, 0, 6) 3: ( 0, 6, 6) 4: ( 6, 6, 0) Tetrahedron mid-edge coordinates 5: ( 3, 0, 3) 6: ( 0, 3, 3) 7: ( 3, 3, 6) 8: ( 3, 3, 0) 9: ( 6, 3, 3) 10: ( 3, 6, 3) Tetrahedron face centers coordinates 11: ( 4, 2, 2) 12: ( 2, 2, 4) 13: ( 2, 4, 2) 14: ( 4, 4, 4) Tetrahedron center of volume coordinate 15: ( 3, 3, 3) Octahedron A and B quantum module coordinates Octahedron vertex coordinates 1: ( 0, 0, 0) 3: ( 0, 6, 6) 4: ( 6, 6, 0) 16: (-6, 6, 0) 17: ( 0, 12, 0) 18: ( 0, 6, -6) Octahedron mid-edge coordinates 6: ( 0, 3, 3) 10: ( 3, 6, 3) 19: (-3, 3, 0) 20: (-3, 9, 0) 21: ( 3, 9, 0) 22: (-3, 6, 3) 23: ( 0, 9, 3) 24: ( 0, 3, -3) 25: ( 3, 6, -3) 26: (-3, 6, -3) 27: ( 0, 9, -3) Octahedron face center points 13: ( 2, 4, 2) 28: ( 2, 4, -2) 29: (-2, 4, 2) 30: (-2, 4, -2) 31: (-2, 8, 2) 32: (-2, 8, -2) 33: ( 2, 4, 6) 34: ( 2, 4, -6) Octahedron center of volume 35: ( 0, 6, 0) Octahedron's 8 remaining A and B q.m. vertex coordinates 36: ( 1, 5, 1) 37: ( 1, 5, -1) 38: (-1, 5, 1) 39: (-1, 5, -1) 40: (-1, 7, 1) 41: (-1, 7, -1) 42: ( 1, 5, 3) 43: ( 1, 5, -3) These are all the coordinates to all the A and B quantum module vertices in a regular tetrahedron-octahedron face-bond pair. The IVM may be generated by translation of this pair in integer steps. Therefore, all A and B quantum modules in the isotropic vector matrix can be assign integer coordinates. Q.E.D. 2) Theorem: Any polyhedron which is composed of face bond A and B quantum modules can be translated, rotated and scaled so that its vertices are all integer coordinates. Counter Example: Consider the tetrahelix. It is constructed out of face bond tetraheda which are themselves constructed out of A quantum modules only. Since the tetrahelix tetrahedron's vertices define a helix with an irrational angular rotation angle there is no orientation nor finite scale of the tetrahelix which could assign rational coordinates to its vertices. Therefore the theorem is *not* true. 3) Theorem: Any convex all-space filling polyhedron will have an associated cartesian (x, y, z) coordinate system such that the coordinates to the all-space filling polyhedron's vertices are integer values. Comments: I don't know if this is true or not. I thought I read some place (Edmondson's booK? a paper by Leob?) that *all* convex polyhedra which fill all-space can be constructed out of A and B quanta modules with a certain ratio of A to B modules. (Maybe this had to do with *volumes* only and not the A and B modules themselves. Wish I could find the reference.) Anyway, I'll give the polyhedra "integer" coordinates now. Note that the coordinates do *not* always result in the center of volume of the polyhedron being at (0,0,0). (The polyhedra can be translated and scaled so that the center of volume is at (0,0,0) with the vertex coordinates still being integers.) Also, I do not adhere to the above A and B quantum module coordinates for the polyhedra below. Tetrahedron 1: ( 1, -1, 1) 2: (-1, 1, 1) 3: ( 1, 1, -1) 4: (-1, -1, -1) 1/4 Tetrahedron 1: ( 1, -1, 1) 2: (-1, 1, 1) 3: ( 1, 1, -1) 4: ( 0, 0, 0) A Quantum Module 1: ( 3, -3, 3) 2: ( 3, 0, 0) 3: ( 1, 1, 1) 4: ( 0, 0, 0) Octahedron 1: ( 0, 0, 1) 2: ( 0, 0, -1) 3: ( 0, -1, 0) 4: ( 1, 0, 0) 5: ( 0, 1, 0) 6: (-1, 0, 0) edge map: (1,3)(1,4)(1,5)(1,6)(2,3)(2,4)(2,5)(2,6) 1/8 Octahedron 1: ( 0, 0, 1) 2: ( 0, -1, 0) 3: ( 1, 0, 0) 4: ( 0, 0, 0) Iceberg 1: ( 0, 0, 1) 2: ( 0, -1, 0) 3: ( 1, 0, 0) 4: ( 0, 1, 0) B Quantum Module 1: ( 3, -3, 3) 2: ( 3, 0, 0) 3: ( 0, 0, 0) 4: (-1, -1, -1) C Quantum Module 1: ( 3, -3, 3) 2: ( 3, 0, 0) 3: (-1, -1, -1) 4: (-2, -2, -2) D Quantum Module 1: ( 3, -3, 3) 2: ( 3, 0, 0) 3: (-2, -2, -2) 4: (-3, -3, -3) nth Quantum Module (where n is an integer) 1: ( 3, -3, 3) 2: ( 3, 0, 0) 3: ( 1, 1, 1) - (n, n, n) 4: ( 0, 0, 0) - (n, n, n) MITE 1: ( 3, -3, 3) 2: ( 3, 0, 0) 3: (-1, -1, -1) 4: ( 2, 2, 2) Syte: Bite 1: ( 4, 0, 0) 2: ( 2, 2, 0) 3: ( 2, 0, 0) 4: ( 3, 1, 1) Syte: Rite 1: ( 0, 0, 0) 2: ( 2, 0, 0) 3: ( 1, 1, 1) 4: ( 1, 1, -1) Syte: Lite 1: ( 0, 0, 0) 2: ( 2, 0, 0) 3: ( 1, 1, 0) 4: ( 1, 1, 1) 5: ( 1, 0, 1) edge map: (1,2)(1,5)(2,5)(1,3)(2,3)(3,4)(4,5)(2,4)(1,4) Kite: Kate 1: ( 0, 0, 0) 2: ( 0, 0, 2) 3: ( 1, 1, 1) 4: ( 0, 2, 0) 5: (-1, 1, 1) edge map: (1,2)(1,3)(1,4)(1,5)(2,3)(2,5)(3,4)(4,5) Kite: Kat 1: ( 0, 0, 0) 2: ( 0, 2, 2) 3: ( 0, 0, 2) 4: ( 0, 2, 0) 5: ( 1, 1, 1) edge map: (1,3)(2,3)(2,4)(1,4)(1,5)(2,5)(3,5)(4,5) Octet 1: ( 0, 0, 0) 2: ( 2, 0, 0) 3: ( 2, 2, 0) 4: ( 2, 0, 2) 5: ( 1, 1, 1) edge map: (1,5)(3,5)(1,3)(1,4)(3,4)(4,5)(1,2)(2,4)(2,3) Coupler 1: ( 0, 0, 0) 2: ( 0, 0, 2) 3: ( 1, 1, 1) 4: ( 0, 2, 0) 5: (-1, 1, 1) 6: ( 0, 2, 2) edge map: (2,6)(4,6)(3,6)(5,6)(1,2)(2,3)(2,5)(1,4) (1,3)(1,5)(3,4)(4,5) Cube 1: ( 1, 1, 1) 2: (-1, 1, 1) 3: (-1, -1, 1) 4: ( 1, -1, 1) 5: ( 1, 1, -1) 6: (-1, 1, -1) 7: (-1, -1, -1) 8: ( 1, -1, -1) edge map: (1,2)(1,5)(2,3)(2,6)(3,4)(3,7)(1,4)(4,8) (5,6)(6,7)(7,8)(5,8) Vector Equilibrium 1: ( 1, 0, 1) 2: ( 0, 1, 1) 3: (-1, 0, 1) 4: ( 0, -1, 1) 5: ( 1, 1, 0) 6: (-1, 1, 0) 7: (-1, -1, 0) 8: ( 1, -1, 0) 9: ( 1, 0, -1) 10: ( 0, 1, -1) 11: (-1, 0, -1) 12: ( 0, -1, -1) Let p = (1 + sqrt(5)) / 2 Icosahedron 1: ( 1, 0, p) 2: (-1, 0, p) 3: ( 1, 0, -p) 4: (-1, 0, -p) 5: ( 0, p, 1) 6: ( 0, -p, 1) 7: ( 0, p, -1) 8: ( 0, -p, -1) 9: ( p, 1, 0) 10: (-p, 1, 0) 11: (-p, -1, 0) 12: ( p, -1, 0) Truncated Icosahedron (Buckminsterfullerene) S Quantum Module Regular Dodecahedron Rhombic Dodecahedron 1: ( 2, 0, 0) 2: ( 0, 2, 0) 3: (-2, 0, 0) 4: ( 0, -2, 0) 5: ( 0, 0, 2) 6: ( 0, 0, -2) 7: ( 1, 1, 1) 8: (-1, 1, 1) 9: (-1, -1, 1) 10: ( 1, -1, 1) 11: ( 1, 1, -1) 12: (-1, 1, -1) 13: (-1, -1, -1) 14: ( 1, -1, -1) Rhombic Triacontahedron T Quantum Module E Quantum Module Tetrakaidecahedron (Lord Kelvin's Solid) 1: ( 1, 0, 2) 2: ( 0, 1, 2) 3: (-1, 0, 2) 4: (-1, -1, 2) 5: ( 2, 0, 1) 6: ( 0, 2, 1) 7: (-2, 0, 1) 8: ( 0, -2, 1) 9: ( 2, 1, 0) 10: ( 1, 2, 0) 11: (-1, 2, 0) 12: (-2, 1, 0) 13: (-2, -1, 0) 14: (-1, -2, 0) 15: ( 1, -2, 0) 16: ( 2, -1, 0) 17: ( 2, 0, -1) 18: ( 0, 2, -1) 19: (-2, 0, -1) 20: ( 0, -2, -1) 21: ( 1, 0, -2) 22: ( 0, 1, -2) 23: (-1, 0, -2) 24: (-1, -1, -2) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 20:59:52 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: More on DIMENSION in Synergetics > >Kirby good piece, there are multidimension area of darkness, and this piece feels that it brings some insight. it takes time to place one syesm with another. or is it the stress tha does not let the imagination to connect. your language is friendly in this piece. econmy and symetry and finding the relevent is kirby consuming passion. but today he added imagination. actually i read it very fast and this my impresion. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 02:37:23 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David F. Watkins" Subject: Re: Antiprimes or Versatile Numbers (cont.) Comments: To: WLauritzen In-Reply-To: <42i4lo$7s3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> On Tue, 5 Sep 1995, WLauritzen wrote: > I know that computers use a base two system. My belief is that > eventually, although I don't know the exact details, we could design > computers that use other bases, perhaps using so called "fuzzy logic" or > probabilistic logic if you prefer. The fact the the human biocomputer > can compute with a base ten system, using an electronic core, is > interesting to me. Perhaps the higher bases are like higher level > computer languages. It is fairly clear that a base two system is > extremely awkward for human use. Bill, Thank you for your very interesting posts to the list. I have often thought that there could be advantages to designing a computer that operated on something other than a binary base. I believe that George Gilder addressed the future of the miniturization of analog computers in his book 'Microcosm'. It seems that there would be a tremendous advantage to using a higher base, particularly for data transmission and storage. With analog the change from discrete to continuous data would seem to offer some advantage. Maybe I'm way off base here, but thought I would see if others here had thoughts on these issues. I seem to recollect that Bucky once said that the ability of the computer to deal easily with the inherent inefficiency of the Cartesian coordinate sytem, could actual delay the conversion to a more effiecient coordinate system. Dave Watkins ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 14:08:37 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Antiprimes or Versatile Numbers (cont.) Dave, I think you make some very good points. I wish I had time to investigate futher along this line. Perhaps I'll look for a copy of that book by Gilder. Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Sep 1995 14:17:07 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Versatiles vs. Five-Fingers Five-Fingers-Per-Hand?? by Bill Lauritzen How many fingers do you have on each hand? Most people will immediately say five. However, I can just as easily say that they are wrong, and that we have four fingers and a thumb on each hand. The five-fingers-per-hand is a MODEL, and like all models is inherently imperfect. I say that we lie to our children a little when we tell them we have five-fingers-per-hand. It's not a big lie. It's no worse than using newtonian physics or any other imperfect model. It has perhaps proved useful to use this five-fingers-per-hand model for calculations. However, the question I want to raise is: Is this the best model? I can think of two other models that I believe are better. First, one can maximally extend all the fingers of the hand. You will notice an approximate circle shape at the tips of the fingers. Draw this circle. Outline all the forms inside the circle, and you will see six extensions radiating from a center, because the wrist is now included in the circle as an extension. (Try this.) Now we have six-per-hand, and this model is just as valid as the five-per-hand. In addition, this model more closely corresponds to the spherical nature of the earth (and most of the rest of the visible mass in the universe). It's my believe that the five-per-hand model fosters the still existing subconscious belief in a flat earth. This model I choose as the cover of the first edition of my book NATURE'S NUMBERS. (However, since too many people thought the book had something to do with palm reading, I have a different cover now.) Second, one can use the thumb as a counter, and count on the bony segments of each finger. Start with the little finger and work out. One, two, three. Next finger: four, five, six. Next finger: seven, eight, nine. Last finger: ten, eleven, twelve. (Try this, too.) A dozen-per-hand. This model, as some of you may know is not my invention, but exists in many parts of the world today, despite the current predominance of ten grouping. It exists in many parts of the Middle East, and I found out recently the the native Indians of Paraguay also count like this. Both of these models are preferable for the simple reason that twelve is a versatile number (see my article on antiprimes or versatile numbers), but ten is not. Because we are USED TO the ten-grouping system, we tend to think it is easier and better. If we had been taught a twelve-grouping system when we were five orbits old, if we had a simple symbology (see my book or video) to carry it, we would be better off. For that matter, any dominant versatile number as a core (base), would be better than using the non-versatile number ten. Use versatile numbers. (c) Sep 1995 by Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 01:03:11 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: YOUR SUPPORT TEAM Organization: OA Internet Inc. -=- Edmonton, AB, Canada Subject: VIRUS ALERT****VIRUS ALERT****VIRUS ALERT**** VIRUS ALERT!!! I just picked this up FYI BEWARE beware BEWARE!!!!! "We have word from PKWARE that someone on the internet is distributing files under the pretext of being an upgrade to the PKZIP/PKUNZIP file compression program." The bogus file names are: PKZ300B.EXE and PKZ300B.ZIP This is NOT a version of PKZIP and it will try to ERASE YOUR HARD DRIVE if you use it. If you encounter them please IGNORE THEM. The most recent version of PKZIP is 2.04g ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Call The WORLD'S MOST IMPORTANT PHONE NUMBER >>>1-800-942-9304<<< ext.#21899 (It's a recording but the information is invaluable!) PIN # 109108. Then, call, join, and E-mail me YOUR pin# and I'll send you an amazing FREE BOOK full of marketing tips and secrets! Fax-O.D.(803) 548-3299 ext.3272 - AutoResponder: LP-INFO@memo.net George Mills - (403) 963-9422 - (Canadian# 1-800-796-6773 ext689) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Sep 1995 10:01:19 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: numbers I.ching has 64 ingrams (not sure of that is the correct word) that is verstile number. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Sep 1995 22:07:14 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Bertland Organization: Binghamton University, Binghamton, NY Subject: Re: Need to get copy of Medard Gabel's "Energy, Earth, and Everyone"... In-Reply-To: BFI carries both books. E-mail BFI@aol.com for info. On Mon, 4 Sep 1995, The Butterfly wrote: > I would like to get copies of both "Energy, Earth, and Everyone" and "Ho-Ping, > Food for Everyone", by Medard Gabel of the World Game Laboratory. I remember > having to jump through hoops at interlibrary loan to get them in college. Are > they in print again, by any chance? > Medard, I beleive you're on this list occasionally. If you you or > anyone else has info (or extra copies to sell), please drop me a line. > > Thanks in advance! > > > -- > Pat > ______________________________Think For Yourself_______________________________ > Patrick G. Salsbury > Web: http://www.visionware.com/pat.html > Mail with "send-file-info-please" in subject line to get my public-files list. > ----------------------- > Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 11:54:57 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: numbers Tagui I'm sure that ancient people did use versatile numbers whether intuitively or by actually knowing the definition. However, 64 is not a versatile number. 60 has 12 factors. 72 has 12 factors, but 64 only has 8. So 60 and 72 could be considered versatile, but 64 is not. General versatile: A number that has more factors or equal factors then any smaller number. Versatile: a number that has more factors than any smaller number Dominant versatile: a number than has more factors than any number from zero up to (not including) double itself. Question: Is 144 a versatile number? (Hint: compare its number of factors to 120.) Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 11:56:42 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Feeling the Round Earth FEELING THE ROUND EARTH by Bill Lauritzen I have wondered if there were ways that someone could experience the round Earth directly, besides going to high altitudes. In fact I have wondered if perhaps the perception of a round Earth was natural, and that the flat earth mind-set is learned though faulty language programming. Perhaps through the use of the words "up" and "down", which don't exist in a round world concept, through the use of an x,y coordinate system, through the use of flat maps in textbooks, through religious indoctrination into the "heaven, earth, hell" concept, and through other subtle words and phrases in many different disciplines, we slowly lose our FEELING for the round Earth and in our mind we begin to feel it is flat despite the NASA photos and video. For example in geology they talk of "plate tectonics" which makes you think that the "plates" that make up the earth's crust are flat like plates. In actual fact they are huge curved structures nothing like a plate, but more like an upside down bowl. I looked through many geometry books to find if there was a word to describe the arc made by these curved pieces of crust. There is none. So I coined the word "plarc" which is short for "planar arc". "Plate tectonics" should possibly be renamed "plarc tectonics." Maps actually cover large planar arcs. Continents, nations, states, counties, and cities exist on plarcs. Oceans cover plarcs. The Great Plains is actually a Great Plarc. Plateaus are not flat, but cover planar arcs. Another example is from the weatherman. He says that the wind "blows." We know, when we blow on our soup, that "blowing" occurs in a straight line. However, the wind is moving in anything but a staright line. If it did move in a straight line it would very shortly be on its way to Mars. The wind "curves" gently from the northeast. Or it curves strongly from the southwest, etc. Using the word "curves" immediately summons up a view of the global dynamics of weather and gives one the immediate impression that weather is not a linear, flat-plane subject, and that it thus can not be predicted easily. If you know of other words in any field that reinforce a flat earth concept please send them to me. Other examples from meteorology: Hurricanes are actually not flat, but exist as huge domes of atmosphere. Low pressure systems and high pressure systems are both domes of air. Fronts exist as huge arcs. So the sky is a dome above us. And, as I will show you shortly, a visible dome. We might all be familiar with one particular method of experiencing the round Earth that particularly impressed me one day. If you live near the ocean, as I do, you can watch the ships come in to port. Near Long Beach Harbor, a very busy harbor by the way, I saw an interesting sight. Two large cargo ships identical in design were passing each other except that one was about five miles off the coast and the other was only a mile off the coast. The one that is further out was showing much less of her hull. At first I though this was some sort of an optical illusion, but then I remembered that I, of course, was living on a round Earth and I immediately felt a sort of sick feeling in my gut as I experienced it. It was frightening yet wonderful. I happened to have a portable telescope in my car (doesn't everyone?) which I was able to focus on the two ships which had the effect of intensifying the experience. The ocean, for the first time, LOOKED curved. Since then I have been trying to think of other ways to get this round Earth experience, and one particular method came to me which anyone can probably try, even if they don't live near an ocean or are not an astronaut. The key is to watch clouds, particularly at "sunset" or spinout. (Of course, the sun doesn't set, the earth is merely spinning away from the sun hence my coining of the word "spinout." This may be the subject of another essay.) At this time we often see layers of colorful clouds. The layers more distant are usually much smaller and much lower. However, we now know that cloud systems are generally at a certain altitude above the Earth. If we have ever been in an airliner or watched pictures from orbit then we have seen this. So, the next time you experience this layered phenomenon just remember that these distant, "lower layers" are actually (in general) at the SAME altitude above the earth as are the nearer "layers." As you reorient your vision, you should experience the round Earth. Try it. Let me know what happens. Or, if you have a good photo of some clouds with this layered effect, try it with this. The point is we don't have to be a slave to our erroneous language and models. We can change them. (c) Sep 1995 B. Lauritzen (comments or suggestions welcomed) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 18:33:00 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Timothy H. Lee" Subject: A Brief Respite... To all those interested, I'll be dropping off the list for a bit while I relocate to a NEW e-mail address (I'm finished with school). I'm killing my account any day now, so please don't send me any new stuff. Thanks. Will stay in touch. Always Learning, Tim p.s. Can be reached by snail-mail at: P.O. Box 25129 Los Angeles, CA 90025 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 22:16:11 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Christopher Belcher Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth Thanks! I'm grateful for suggestions on how to remind oneself of where we are in the cosmos... I know Fuller talked about this. Your essay though amplifies the theme in a thoughtful way. I don't have an immediate suggestion on the round Earth, but something I do is, since my birthday coincides with the Perseid meteor shower, every year I stay up late and watch the shooting stars, which, I guess, in its cyclicity (sp?) reminds one of of the roundness of the earth as it spins through space... cheers, Chris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:21:04 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth I > FEELING THE ROUND EARTH > >by Bill Lauritzen > >I have wondered if there were ways that someone could experience the round >Earth directly, besides going to high altitudes. In fact I have wondered > Just to add to your list: curved tak-off, curved- landing arc take off , arch landing. just thought about this while reading your clear essay. Descartes wrote: ... as I... desired to give my attention solely to the search after truth, I thought that ... i ought to reject as absolutely false all opinion in regard to which i could suppose the least ground for doubt, in order to ascerain whether after that there remainedd aught in my belief that was wholly indubitable. acordingly, seeing that our sense somtimes deceive us, i was willing to suppose that there existed nothing really such as they presented to us: and becuse men err in reasoning ... i,convinced that i was as open to error as any other, rejected as false all the reasoning i had hirherto taken for demonstrations; and finally, i just read this last night in semoptics book, it might be a bit reletd to Fuller idea of disbelieving everything he knew. having no foundation of how to do that some reflecting about the idea is necessery, not that i think is possible. I also thought that it is necessery to know clearly the axioms that you are questioning, so what you have doen take off from that/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:13:37 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth Bill Lauritzen wrote: > FEELING THE ROUND EARTH >by Bill Lauritzen Bill, given the title and the copyright, are you writing for a publication somewhere? >I have wondered if there were ways that someone could experience the round >Earth directly, besides going to high altitudes. 1) Go to the equator, and set up two water basins, one on each side of the equator. Pull the plugs at the same time, and watch one drain in a clockwise manner, and one drain in a counter-clockwise manner. Now, this is not direct proof of the earth's roundness, only of its spinning, but it is pretty to watch. Hard(er) to argue with "round" if you can prove "spinning". A very spooky experience for me when I saw it as a child. The two basins, 3 feet apart, look like a "magic trick". 2) Send someone on a hike with a GPS (Global Positioning) device. Prices are dropping like a rock on these little gizmos, so they should only cost about $300 for a low-end model. If the hiker uses plane trig (rather than spherical trig), they should notice how far "off" they are on distance and direction after a reasonable day's walk. Doing an informal survey of one's property boundries, and then calculating the total acreage will often show errors due to the small differences. 3) Travel north-south or south-north for a few hundred miles over a few days, and do an accurate sighting on the sun's position at the same time each day. (If you are slightly east or west of the prior sighting position's longitudes, one must compensate with the "equation of time" as used by astronomers.) The sun will be "higher" in the sky as one approaches the equator. If you get enough data points, you can estimate the radius of the earth along your great circle of travel. You will get a curve fairly quickly. If you are willing to get a sextant and do some math, you could take all the measurements in one or two days, compensating for the time of day, longitude/latitude, and such. 4) Go to Cadillac Mountian (near Bar Harbor, Maine), drive up, and watch the sun "rise" and "set", watch the sailboats come and go (and their sails slowly sink "over" the horizon). Practice how to say "Bar Harbor", which is "Ba Ha Ba" in the local tounge. Have a friend down on the beach with a walkie talkie doing the same thing. Compare times of appearance and disappearance. Calculate the figures formed by height of mountain, time differential, approximate height of sailboats, and estimated distance of sailboats at disappearance/appearance. Very sloppy, but cheap to do. Any high building or mountain near the shore would do just as well. 5) Get a globe and a flashlight. Shine the flashlight on the globe, and find two cities that share the same great circle, or are fairly close. Call friends in each city at the time of sunset, and get each friend to announce the moment of sunset from their vantage point. The delta between the two will express the curvature of the earth. 6) Recall that New York is three hours "ahead" of Los Angeles. Recall that New York is roughly 3,000 miles east of LA. Hmmmm... looks like about 1,000 miles per hour, don't it? The earth, if one assumes that it is round, takes about 24 hours to rotate once. This means that the earth must be about 24,000 miles around. Check an atlas. Pretty accurate estimate, eh? If the earth were NOT an oblate spheroid, how would the above estimate work? Enough already... Make peace with your Enemy. With whom ELSE can you make peace? james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com The Information Supercollider Split infinitives, not atoms! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:50:56 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: SciFi: Buckydom on the Disney Channel Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com Comments: cc: ncndiscuss-l@newciv.org Richard writes: >Ok , I'm familiar with this section but I thought maybe somewhere there was >a more detailed analysis regarding "epsilon/delta proofs" referred to and >the contradiction of the Angular Topology principle. Kirby writes: No, I added the epsilon/delta notation 'cause Fuller is criticizing the calculus, and that's how calculus-heads would characterize their assertions. >It seems like duals are involved when we consider "takeout angles". For >example, if we add the 720 degrees of takeout back to the eight corners of a >cube (90 degrees to each) so that they revert to infinite planes, the >intersection of these planes would form an octahedron within the boundaries >of the lines of intersection; I also think of "pixel dust" (heh) and those old Wonderful World of Disney segments on NBC (or was it ABC?) where Tinker Bell would fly into view and spray her twinkles around -- those are the little 'missing degree' twinkles that, adding back to each vertex, cause 'em to open up. So I have this high frequency icosaball, looking like the Disney Epcot AT&T pavilion -- hey, since this is Disney, lets start with the Epcot BuckyBall itself. Then continental features and cloud-cover emerge: Spaceship Earth. Then TinkerBell shows up and does her wand thing. As the twinkles settle into the high frequency vertices, the ball opens up, ala Chris Rywalt's excellent QuickTime animation (see dymax.html) to form the Fuller Projection. ...then, since Disney has bought ABC, the newsroom studio could materialize around the Fuller Projection, with news anchors beaming into view in front of it, ala Star Trek (Paramount owns the Trekkie inventory, I know, but I don't think the "beaming down" visual effect is copyright). A little theme music, and we're ready for the news minus any political boundaries in the background, which would make those sovereignty/turf-gangleader politicos (= big time arms trafficers) sit up and take notice. World News doesn't give a fig for your national boundaries, now that we're Disney/ABC, commercially sponsored up the wazooo. The anti-profitability of your little nation-state fiasco is messing with World Livingry Service Industry scenario planning, so bye-bye Bosnia, Israel, Palestine, USA, Serbia, Iraq, Libya, Kuwait, Rawanda, Georgia, Canada, Hawaii, France, China etc. Of course competing maps (distorted ones) will continue to show nations (with an edge of desparation to keep them around). And we'll hold on to zip codes/country codes, internet domain labels, cute flags, fashion- conscious military dress-up and parade rituals. Hey, we'll even talk about nations in the news, but just so you know, these has-beens are YesterWorld tourist-attraction pavilions at EPCOT. Tomorrowland is brought to you by... GRUNCH. Of course this science fiction about supranationals withdrawing most of their sponsorship for warfaring gangland nation-states is just so much uglifying anti-democracy to a lot of good folks, like Nader & Co. I think it could only be done well if the Wonderful World of Fuller were to phase in accordingly, with a cast of billions starring in grand world game multimedia extravaganzas about making the world work, ending hunger in a hurry etc. If we're just consolidating Atoms & Oil, with more trickle-down for the voting few and financially feeble, then we're right to undermine like hell. That's Econ 101, not General Systems Theory at work (see gstwork.html). If corporate world game teams ditch the gangland nation-states *without* the requisite concommitant positive science fiction, it'll just be Blade Runner/Johnny Mnemonic futurism, of which movie-goers are not especially fond (except as specter-spectators of distopian "might have been" worlds). IVM aesthetics is very high profile at EPCOT as it is (e.g. Kodak Pavilion). Smart money will invest in that aesthetic whole hog, if it wants to stay secure. Stick to the XYZ rectilinear look 'n feel, and you'll wind up with Greeky/Romanesque aesthetics ala Washington DC, where the Fed interface vibes Imperial StoneAge for all the world to frown upon (juridical jurisprudence administered from a temple-looking building -- how Geeky/Roman can you get?). But its not too late for USA OS either, provided it takes advantage of the degrees of freedom its late great inventor pioneered -- that so *many* of its freedom-loving fearless have co-created (but which money- grubbing privateers ignore, still in search of the risk-free bonanza that doesn't require wearing a thinking-cap; the allure of mindless margin-money, conditioned reflex cash (ala videogames), is what Wall Street most wants to offer -- using other people's money of couse). I just don't see a way to keep integrating global resource management intelligently without a world web investing heavily in buckydom's Design Science. That may be blindness and prejudice on my part, or it may be that so few humans have been building aesthetic/engineering designs for the long haul, that when it comes to long haul planning, we haven't much in the way of alternatives. But LAWCAP is of course reluctant to tread in Bucky's Magic Kingdom, for fear of losing more than gaining. The answer, my friend, is blowing your horn in consumerville, letting the giants know that you're tired of 'This Old House' (top rated TV I know, but so would the 'Deployment Channel' draw avid audiences if the prototypes were done right). >From a market research point of view, I think we can prove that the 720 degree takeout tetrahedron is just the complement we need to neutralize moneymaking in place of sense-making. And highly engineered/techno-culture such as webworld has produced should have little trouble switching over to sense-making, since moneymaking actually tends to interfere with sensible long-term thinking and design processes. We'll still provide high living standards (higher than yours now, I'm willing to wager), but maybe less *grossly* high-flying lifestyles ala the rich and filthy. Why celebrate schlock? We can give Huey, Duey and Louy more challenging and interesting role models than Donald Duck's rich uncle. Time to leave the 1800s. >I've been thinking about Fuller's equivocation of the 720 degree "takeout" >with the tetra and also the tetra with 2 complete cycles of rotation. It >brings to mind Gerald's binary artifact: axis/orbit, 1/0, duality, >precession. Indeed it does. Gerald's jack-in-the-box tetrahelix (1) zaps out of a 5-tetra holding pattern (0), vectors time/energywise across volumetric 4D space, and rekindles in a new holding pattern. I see language as a zapspace of sense-bolts, transferring energy from fading-fast holding-on-but-dying patterns to newly energized star systems (considerations) with more processing power, higher bandwidth, and the degrees of freedom necessary within with to do serious investment channeling ala world game global modeling. Architectronics I call it [TM]. Kirby ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 20:41:08 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tom Murphy Subject: Buckminster Fuller Tell me more. None of his books or writings are available in the UK. Any info gratefully received. Found address in Osborne Golden Directory. Will send email to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu. New user as of last week, this could be a great find Tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth James, Am I writing for a publication? No, I'm writing for you and who ever else wants to read it. I always copyright essays if I put a lot of thought and effort into them. Of course, notes like this it not necessary. Re your suggestions as to the round earth. It seems you are offering several suggestions which I have downloaded for future possible use. Thanks. I am wondering if these are not so much for EXPERIENCING the round earth as for VERIFYING that it is round. You have tried the one on the equator. I'm curious what exact feelings that gave you if you can remember. Have you tried any of the others? Bill Lauritzen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:43:34 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth Chris, Thanks for your suggestion re the Perseid meteor shower. I like that. On my birthday (which happens to be today) I say I have completed so many orbits rather than so many years. Bill L. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:43:03 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth Tagui, yes, a take-off would be curved as well as the flight path of the aircraft. In other words aircraft in going from city to city follow arcs. Bill L. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 10:00:34 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ed Applewhite Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller Tom Murphy, For sources of books by Fuller suggest you contact: Golten, Roger, 23 The Grove, Latimer, Chesham, Bucks HP5 1VE Telephone: 1494 765-481 Ed Applewhite ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:59:43 CET Reply-To: tagdi@let.ruu.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller >Tell me more. None of his books or writings are available in the UK. Any >info gratefully received. Found address in Osborne Golden Directory. Will >send email to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu. >Tom I do not think that you have looked very carfully, somewhere in London libraries i am sure they are in the shellf. i had a friend who checked his books there. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:14:23 CET Reply-To: tagdi@let.ruu.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth Bill To tell you the truth i read your writing only one time of course with the other mail, i been trying to use only the use correct terms for the last 3 years or so. for example outstairs ect,. then when i left the University building i real have different feeling as if the accumilation of your sentences have effected my preception. there is somthing accute about focousing your attention on these particular experiences which are relevent. anyway this feeling i did not have befor, it was for a while, but i think it doesn realy effect you subtle. may be you can farther the approach you have used. i even thought later or should i say a thought crossed my mind to make copy and give it to the public. i think by all means you should make a small book about it.or send it to all the news groups in the internet. also it could be companian of Fuller map. by the way if you have any books for refrence in any subject that you think. i maean really good books. please list.this last comment go to everyone.keep the good work.oh by the way there is clearity about your writing that is nice in both article also your numbers paper. Octave Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:31:44 CET Reply-To: tagdi@let.ruu.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: Some figures The international banking system have 2 trillion dollars circulating around the world in 1980. this is a lot of money when you compare it to 200 billion of Us Gnp in the end of 19 century. China export is 50 billion dollars in 1990. 1920 great Britain had 200 million sterling of gold assets, but 20 billion foriener investment in dominian. few figures, if you know any try to list. becuse i did not have precise idea of how to get a good picture of the accumulated wealth in figures i saturated my mind with all figures which of course i forget a lot of. now if i study the subject again i think i do it different, i will look at the largest figures and some totals that are miningful in relation to the survival of humanity, and charted in progressive curve. they predict that china will have higher standards of living in 2003 than America or Europe ( Herld Tribune) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:43:21 CET Reply-To: tagdi@let.ruu.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: Science of comprehensivity Is there herarchy in fuller ideas? there must be a way to dig into general knowldge in clear manner. call it the science of comprehensvity, what is the component. Ferdinand de Saussure lay the foundation of the science of semiotics, i am using this just as an example, could we say that Fuller have laid the checky foundation of general science of comprhensivity. Octave Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 01:59:43 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth Tagdi, Thank you for your kind remarks. I know what you mean about perceptions. Since I wrote that essay, in the last few days my perceptions have changed somewhat too. Who knows, we may all have a new perception of the Earth sooner than we think. My video "Numbers of the Future," I'm distributing to whoever wants one at 4.95 plus 2.00 shipping (US). My book "Nature's Numbers," I have to get reprinted. I hope to get some more copies printed next week or so. It's ging for 14.95 plus 2.00 shipping. Bill L. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 19:41:33 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller >Tell me more. None of his books or writings are available in the UK. Any >info gratefully received. Found address in Osborne Golden Directory. Will >send email to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu. > >New user as of last week, this could be a great find > >Tom Have you visited the Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute? If not try http://metro.turnpike.net/G/GoatBoy/bfvi.html swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 15:21:51 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David H. Chasey" Organization: USA On Ramp Subject: Plexiglass Polyhedra in search permanent display area My 78 year old father has made hundreds of plexiglass polydedra and he and I are looking for a permanent home for them (at an institute, universit, or whatever) where they can be viewed and appreciated by the public. These shapes are so extremely well made that I would guess that they have no equal. I have scanned a number of photos of them and I will e-mail some of these images to those who can provide genuine leads in this search of a display site. David H. Chasey 412-531-4193 dhchasey@usaor.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 02:20:48 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ryszard Nowosielski Organization: Maloka BBS Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth In <436uvq$iko@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, wlauritzen@aol.com (WLauritzen) wrote: : FEELING THE ROUND EARTH : (comments or suggestions welcomed) I have noticed clouds layers effect this year. Funny thing I thought about it like you as Earth roundness visible proof. Sad thing my wife not shared same impression. I remember as well that when I looked at sunset at the seaside near hill I could catch the view of sun which had gone by climbing fast. It was very short and strange as moment of past regained. Nice to share it. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:38:43 -0400 Reply-To: WLauritzen Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth Ryszard, Thanks for sharing your experience regarding the earth and the sun. Bill L. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:31:01 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth however, at 6' above the surface, sphericity is swamped by local topology; may as well be flat. then, how do you distinguish the curve of a (hypothetically smooth) cloudlayer against that flatness & the diminution of perspective -- how do you find the angular take-outs between the clouds?... you cannot, because you *see* a 360-degree (flat) polygonal tiling at every vertex of cloudmeeting, even if it's really 359.9940, because your eyes are not sufficiently far-apart, at that distance, to distinguish that concavity -- at least, mine aren't! ----- The Palmtree BBS 310-453-8726 v.32 Inet: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 17:07:06 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth James Fischer wrote: >Bill Lauritzen wrote: >> FEELING THE ROUND EARTH >>by Bill Lauritzen > Bill, given the title and the copyright, are you writing for a > publication somewhere? >>I have wondered if there were ways that someone could experience the round >>Earth directly, besides going to high altitudes. > 1) Go to the equator, and set up two water basins, one on each > side of the equator. Pull the plugs at the same time, and > watch one drain in a clockwise manner, and one drain in > a counter-clockwise manner. Now, this is not direct proof > of the earth's roundness, only of its spinning, but it is > pretty to watch. Hard(er) to argue with "round" if you can > prove "spinning". A very spooky experience for me when I > saw it as a child. The two basins, 3 feet apart, look > like a "magic trick". My information is that the draining will not be predictably clockwise or counter in small basins in either hemisphere. This was a disappointment to learn: we conducted a test in Lesotho and thought we had proved the event. But experiments have shown that there is no such phenomenon. I forget if it was this very list where this long-standing belief of mine bit the dust -- I think it was, many months ago. The effect is reliable for large scale events, like hurricanes. Kirby ------------------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:35:20 CET Reply-To: tagdi@let.ruu.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: Design Does increase in energy availability mean quick implmentation of design. Did Fuller invented all there is to be invented in the area of comprhensivity, or are we looking in the wrong place for ideas.when he says design uses angle and frequency what does he mean.do we have to use thick glasses. Octave. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 17:34:54 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mel Charters Organization: CallAmerica, San Luis Obispo CA USA Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth Using a pendulum you can prove the earth is turning. If it is turning you might infer it is round. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 01:34:56 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Dennis Organization: Actrix Networks -- NZ Internet Service Providers. Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth In article <43muvu$pdn@clue.callamer.com>, Mel Charters wrote: > Using a pendulum you can prove the earth is turning. If it is turning > you might infer it is round. CDs turn and are round, but they're still flat. Therefore the world must be flat.... Or a CD... regards Chris -- Chris Dennis cdennis@actrix.gen.nz Wellington, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:21:24 CST Reply-To: tagdi@let.ruu.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: Re: 4D: Masters of Tensegrity Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com >[interminable quoting-chain unlocked] > >it seems that, once you've learned t'read Bucky, >you can read any thing -- it's just words! Fuller avoids the boundries of desciplines, and connects phenomenas in general. But their are importand zones that interconnect his ideas. i have a feeling that these zones are what overcomes or dissolve the walls of desciplines and their electric noncrossing warning signs. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 19:04:08 CST Reply-To: tagdi@let.ruu.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: Zone number 1 "Access" critical path:part 4 No single move can bring us more swiftly in the direction of complete overall desovereignization , unlocking the free flow of technologies and resources, than that of instituting the world around integrated electrical- energy network fully described in the introduction to this book and the world game chapter. How long will that take, and what is the important economical and energetic data, what is the overall technicality? what factors that will accelerate bring it to actualiy. " Next in artifact design priorty to the integrated world electrical energy network comes the physical enviroment controlling equipment of world around humanity's momentaily geographically fixed in contradisinction to humanity swiftly mobil enviroment controlling artifacts such as utomobiles, buses, airplanes, and satellites." What is the state of the art conserning housing, the possibility of establishing world accomedation industry, the technological availability, and how far are we from mass production and logistic-technicalities availability. it is only now becoming clear that capitalizm is based on poverty principle eventhough it profeses luxiourious life and that spending is only passed on how to accumilate more, while the sun just spends without sheets of debth and credit. nature is, extremely and beyond what these little mentality concieve, is infinitly laxourious.i conclude then that the west in general have never enjoyed life. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:59:58 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Feeling the Round Earth >Kirby Urner wrote: >>>I have wondered if there were ways that someone could experience the round >>>Earth directly, besides going to high altitudes. > >> 1) Go to the equator, and set up two water basins, one on each >> side of the equator. Pull the plugs at the same time, and >> watch one drain in a clockwise manner, and one drain in >> a counter-clockwise manner. Now, this is not direct proof >> of the earth's roundness, only of its spinning, but it is >> pretty to watch. Hard(er) to argue with "round" if you can >> prove "spinning". A very spooky experience for me when I >> saw it as a child. The two basins, 3 feet apart, look >> like a "magic trick". > >My information is that the draining will not be predictably clockwise or >counter in small basins in either hemisphere. This was a disappointment >to learn: we conducted a test in Lesotho and thought we had proved the >event. But experiments have shown that there is no such phenomenon. I forget >if it was this very list where this long-standing belief of mine bit the >dust -- I think it was, many months ago. The effect is reliable for large >scale events, like hurricanes. Say what? I SAW it work. My father and I set it up ourselves! This was not an organized event for the tourists, nor was it a con-game. This was a handful of people with two circular wash basins of the type seen in victorian bedrooms! I swear that the basins were about 3 feet apart. No more. Dad did level the basins with a carpenter's bubble-level, since he had been told that one must level the basins by a local. I will agree that if one is not EXACTLY sure of where the equator is, one could have problems. I also agree that one would get better results if one tried the trick at two points that were hundreds of feet, even miles apart. I know for sure that the southern hemisphere as a whole demonstrates the "backwards" effect, I have made a point of noticing when I traveled on business to Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Japan, Maylasia, etc. etc. It was consistent in hotel sinks, toilets, bathtubs, everything. I would conclude that there is a minimum distance where the effect would be "reliable", and anything closer would require leveling the basins with a bubble level, and other very exact methods. With a more vortex-shaped container (wide at the top, tapering in toward the bottom) one would assume that the effect could be "helped" to be very easy to see. Dunno for sure, though. Anyone on this list live near the equator? Anyone ever tried this when it did NOT work? Anyone have a reference for the research Kirby mentioned? Make peace with your Enemy. With whom ELSE can you make peace? james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com The Information Supercollider Split infinitives, not atoms! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:04:54 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Bertland Subject: Anyone giving papers? Just wondering if anyone in this group is giving papers on Fuller at any of the myriad conferences this fall. I'll be giving two on the concept of utopia in Fuller's architecture (some of you may remember our discussions this spring about Fuller and utopia). The first will be at the Society for Utopian Studies conference in Toronto in October and the second will be at the Mid-Atlantic Popular Culture Association/American Culture Association meeting in Syracuse, NY in November. Anyone attending or participating in those? - Marcia Blackburn bd81064@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 17:32:20 CET Reply-To: tagdi@let.ruu.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: The myth of scientific literacy by Morris Shaomos.(new scientst) science ideas go against common sense, which can make science very tough for nonscientst. Shamos belives that the modest objective of increasing scientific literacy from the current level of 5% to 20% will prove all but impossible My own aim would be to bring about the public recognition that science is the best way to understand the world. my own comment: no one really means what they say, wasting time away in leasure and for nothing is the best way to learning. having projects for tommorow is missing the present, may be it is possible to live in the present if one does things for nothing ... as antidot to capitalizm. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:53:44 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Monika J. Mayer-Kielmann" Subject: Postcard from the edge In-Reply-To: <950920205852_24842513@mail02.mail.aol.com> It was a clear a sunny day on the West Coast. We drove all the way up from San Francisco to stop a cliff. Here we sat and saw the Pacific Ocean, the horizon and, because of our elevated position, could very clearly see that the earth is round. It just struck us that we never perceived this before. Didn't Bucky point out that we should reevaluate our coordinate systems, since it might predefine a priori what we are perceiving ? Greetings Frank Rothkamm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:11:34 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Zone number 1 "Access" interestingly, "zone 1" as we se it in Permaculture, which is a sort of design-science of landscaping, if you will, is the kitchen-garden & espalliers & such on the house! I'd like to note, though, that "capital" is simply a term to describe relative capacities of labor, "per head", as leveraged through technology or "oil slaves", as Bucky's called'em; "per-headism" as supposed to be equivalent to the gross ideology of Adam Smith & Co. (Br.E.India, AKA Dope, Inc.) or *laissez-faire* is a different story -- the one that Bucky mostly refers to (LawCap, FinCap, DunceCap, GRUNCH etc.). ----- The Palmtree BBS 310-453-8726 v.32 Inet: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:00:56 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Returned mail: Host unknown On Thu, 21 Sep 1995 01:22:02 -0700, Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote: > Subject: Re: 4D: Star_Tetrahedron.JPEG.uu -- Mobilsaurus rex > > you imply that the oil-co.-directed cartoomercial > about dinosaurs being the primary source of oil > --and we all know when *they* died-out-- > is the basis for all real accounting of the black-gold > on Madison Avenue & in Jed Clampett's Brain, but > what if it doesn't apply outside of of Hollyweird? > oops; what *does* UBVM stand for, anyway? ----- The Palmtree BBS 310-453-8726 v.32 Inet: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 18:42:36 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: coriolis effect In-Reply-To: <199509201913.PAA01050@crucible.inmind.com> from "James Fischer" at Sep 20, 95 02:59:58 pm here's the relevant section from the sci.physics faq (see ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/sci.physics/) concerning bathtubs draining clockwise or counterclockwise. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: Does my bathtub drain differently depending on whether I live in the northern or southern hemisphere? Answer: No. There is a real effect, but it is far too small to be relevant when you pull the plug in your bathtub. Because the earth rotates, a fluid that flows along the earth's surface feels a "Coriolis" acceleration perpendicular to its velocity. In the northern hemisphere low pressure storm systems spin counterclockwise. In the southern hemisphere, they spin clockwise because the direction of the Coriolis acceleration is reversed. This effect leads to the speculation that the bathtub vortex that you see when you pull the plug from the drain spins one way in the north and the other way in the south. But this acceleration is VERY weak for bathtub-scale fluid motions. The order of magnitude of the Coriolis acceleration can be estimated from size of the "Rossby number" (see below). The effect of the Coriolis acceleration on your bathtub vortex is SMALL. To detect its effect on your bathtub, you would have to get out and wait until the motion in the water is far less than one rotation per day. This would require removing thermal currents, vibration, and any other sources of noise. Under such conditions, never occurring in the typical home, you WOULD see an effect. To see what trouble it takes to actually see the effect, see the reference below. Experiments have been done in both the northern and southern hemispheres to verify that under carefully controlled conditions, bathtubs drain in opposite directions due to the Coriolis acceleration from the Earth's rotation. Coriolis accelerations are significant when the Rossby number is SMALL. So, suppose we want a Rossby number of 0.1 and a bathtub-vortex length scale of 0.1 meter. Since the earth's rotation rate is about 10^(-4)/second, the fluid velocity should be less than or equal to 2,10^(-6) meters/second. This is a very small velocity. How small is it? Well, we can take the analysis a step further and calculate another, more famous dimensionless parameter, the Reynolds number. The Reynolds number is = L,U,density/viscosity Assuming that physicists bathe in hot water the viscosity will be about 0.005 poise and the density will be about 1.0, so the Reynolds Number is about 4,10^(-2). Now, life at low Reynolds numbers is different from life at high Reynolds numbers. In particular, at low Reynolds numbers, fluid physics is dominated by friction and diffusion, rather than by inertia: the time it would take for a particle of fluid to move a significant distance due to an acceleration is greater than the time it takes for the particle to break up due to diffusion. The same effect has been accused of responsibility for the direction water circulates when you flush a toilet. This is surely nonsense. In this case, the water rotates in the direction which the pipe points which carries the water from the tank to the bowl. Reference: Trefethen, L.M. et al, Nature 207 1084-5 (1965). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:52:57 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Postcard from the edge I have read that dysparallelism of railroadtracks is minutely apparent, looking "down" them, and the horizon is round by definition, but I doubt that any terrestrial vantage is adequate to escape the straight- ness (apparent) of it, although you have to rotate to get the whole thing into view! ----- The Palmtree BBS 310-453-8726 v.32 Inet: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 06:33:10 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Politics@USA.COM Organization: Wisconsin Internet Services Subject: Proposed State & Federal Regulations for the INTERNET! Originator: glasrud@squeaky.free.org My name is Scott Glasrud, and I am running for the New Mexico State Senate during the 1996 elections. One of the reasons I have chosen to run is to combat the proposed state and federal regulations of the Internet. As you know, the Internet was never designed to be regulated! It was designed to allow communications in the event of anuclear war or a major catastrophe. I OPPOSE REGULATION, and if elected will fight to preserve your constitutional rights. HOWEVER, I NEED YOUR HELP! I am asking each person who reeives this message to send $5.00 to the Scott Glasrud Campaign Committee. If we pull together, we CAN protect our first amendment rights! HELP ME show the politicians the POWER behind this important NETWORK. Please send contributions to: The Scott Glasrud Campaign Committee 11024 Montgomery Blvd. NE, Suite 179 Albuquerque, New Mexico 87111 Thank you! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 11:02:53 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: which way is upstream for the Tid-E-Bowl Man? (was, Corriolis Effect) also, the closer to the equator, the weaker the effect -- although it *is* responsible for the upwelling alon the equator, with the westward flow, during the non-El Nino phase of ENSO (contrary to popular news, the El Nino occurs regularly, but not as big at some times; EN & SO used to be, or to be onsidered, two different things, the latter having been known as QSO, "quasi-biennial [26-28 months] Southern Oscillation. ----- The Palmtree BBS 310-453-8726 v.32 Inet: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 04:15:53 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider Subject: WWW> World Citizen Foundation, World Citizen Web [ Article crossposted from comp.internet.net-happenings ] [ Author was Gleason Sackman ] [ Posted on 21 Sep 1995 12:30:50 -0500 ] *** From Net-Happenings Moderator *** Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:27:38 -0500 From: gadavis@together.net http://www.together.org/orgs/wcw History/practice of world citizenship in one world., Technology/communications is global while politics remains nationalistic. The world citizen Web shows how to theoretically and practically equate technology/communications with politics. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com (finger me!) | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Design Science Revolutionary http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf | Explorer in Universe "Dare to be Naive" -- Bucky Fuller | Linux Advocate ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 06:09:47 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SPAMKING@MARKETING.COM Organization: Wisconsin Internet Services Subject: REACH 5 MILLION INTERNET SUBSCRIBERS CALL 505-821-1945 LOW COST! ATTENTION ALL BUSINESS OWNERS, ADVERTISING AND MARKETING PROFESSIONALS! MASS E-MAIL & POST To Over 5,000,000 (Million) Internet Subscribers With Your Advertising Message. YOU DON'T EVEN NEED TO OWN A COMPUTER! Save Thousands of $$ Compared to US POSTAL MAIL EXCITING OFFER AT THE END OF THIS FREE GUIDE The following is a FREE GUIDE to "Effective Marketing" through the use of electronic Mass Posting on the Internet. I have a lot of experience and have done extensive research on this new and exciting area of electronic marketing. THIS IS MY STORY I have been using electronic marketing for the last year with great results. I recently made national news by Internet marketing commemorative blue prints of the Fat Man & Little Boy Atomic Bomb Shell Casings. My most recent success was marketing a Multi-level Sweepstakes game out of the Bahamas. The reason I mention these two highly successful programs is that, as strange and unusual as these are ... they were very successful! The MLM Sweepstakes program netted me 180 NEW DISTRIBUTORS with just one e-mailing! Since then many small and large businesses, political candidates and non-profit foundations seeking to raise cash have sought out my service. This unique idea has provided an opportunity for small to large businesses to reach MILLIONS of internet subsribers at a LOW COST! What other media could you utilize to reach MILLIONS of ON-LINE users for an investment in knowledge, time and effort! HOW I ACCOMPLISHED THE TASK I pulled ALL possible LIST SERVE MAILING LISTS and 14,000 NEWS GROUPS on the Internet. I send out "just one E-mail" with bcc (blind carbon copy) to all lists. Don't send a separate E-mail to each Mailing List, that takes to much time! Just copy and paste E-mail address for each List and send. LIST SERVERS act as a postman and deliver your message to ALL members of the mailing list. You want to post to ALL lists at one time. Encourage your recipients to call your business number, write to an address to order or obtain more information. I also have compiled a huge data base (now over 2 million) of E-mail addresses that are sent directly to the recipient. NEWS GROUPS NEWS GROUPS are used in a similar fashion. I simply PULL the E-mail addresses off the News Groups and then blind carbon copy, post everyone, with just one E-mail. You can also "post your message" to the News Groups. Be prepared for Flames and Mail Bombs (large files designed to clog up the server) to both you and your Service Provider. However, I have found that the so called "Voices from the Net" is much overrated. Most people pay no attention if they have no interest. People simply hit the delete key thereby eliminating the message. I might add that this method is a whole lot better for the environment than filling up our landfills with paper junk mail. However, your SERVICE PROVIDER WILL react due to even the smallest amount of mail bombs it receives. WHY you ask? Service Providers get UPSET due to the fact that mail bombs can overload, shut or slow down the Server. This temporarily deprives some of their customer's access. This tends to make them a LITTLE TESTY! However, this is not as bad as it seems. You already may have received many "connection refused by Host" error messages from your Server. This happens when traffic becomes too heavy for your Server to handle and the Server temporarily bottle necks (slows or shuts down.) The issue for your Internet Service Provider is not the issue of advertising or marketing. The issue for your Service Provider is a small group of malicious people who have an anti-advertising agenda and will make every attempt to stop this new exciting trend in advertising and marketing on the Internet. WHEN TO SEND YOUR MASS POSTING A suggested time to send out your huge mass posting is on a Monday morning at 2:00 am. At that time there is less competition for bandwidth. Furthermore, the Syops (system operators serve as monitors) are usually not very awake on Monday morning. They are more likely to let your E-mail slip by due to dealing with hundreds of posting to their Mailing List from the weekend. It really pays to make your Subject Header something that is "very generic." Many Syops just look at the Subject header and NOT the content before posting. When that happens ... You're in business! Examples of a good header would be: FYI, Good Information, Reply to message, Coffee anyone? You get the idea I am sure. Just be creative and stay away from headers that sound commercial. The subscribers also tend to forward your message to others if you request they do so in your posting. BTW, ... MOST of the Lists are NOT REALLY MONITORED. Syops will seek to censor commercial messages before posting to a group mailing list. However, I can assure you that the anti-advertising element is a small minority and does not represent the clear majority of on-line users. MAJOR BULLETIN BOARDS AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy and Delphi, ETC., don't have the problem of shutting down because of their large size capacity. They are also much slower to respond to NEWBIES who don't "know any better." Generally speaking it takes about 3 warnings about Mass Posting (spamming) from a Service Provider to finally shut you down. If you are currently a subscriber to one of the big services and you get bumped off, ... a letter of apology to TOS (Terms of Service) with a promise not to Mass Post again will always get you turned back on. USE OF AN AUTOMATED ANSWERING SERVICE & MARKET EXPANSION LINE One technique that I use with a great deal of success is an AUTOMATED ANSWERING SERVICE. US WEST COMMUNICATIONS (phone company) provides a service called VOICE MESSAGING. You will never miss a message or have a busy line again! This service adds $6.95 a month to your phone bill. The great thing about it is that it can handle ALL your incoming calls at one time. I have my Voice Mail Service set up as an information and ordering HOT LINE. 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Therefore, donUt count on recieving any replies via E-mail. Yes, you will get an occasional nut case/radical who will call to complain. HOWEVER, you will receive LOT$ of legitimate orders for your valuable product or service! Make sure that you use a MAIL BOX ETC. address as your business address. This company will give you what will appear to be a real street address as opposed to a PO BOX. You never can tell if a REAL nut case will drop by your home or business location and cause problems. HELPFUL HINTS You can make your mass posting program last much longer with your Service Provider if you take the time to post a question to the Mailing List that fits their subject matter and then add a PS, ... BTW, Do you want to buy something ... information. This tip was offered to me by one of the big List Syops. However, I found this very time consuming to post individually to thousands of lists and far EASIER to just change Service Providers. Again, if you're going to Mass post (spam) ... do it BIG!!! Little or BIG mass posting, the result is the same. Your Service Provider will tire of receiving Mail Bombs and eventually give you the Old Heave Ho! Keep in mind that you ARE going to be eventually bumped off anyway ... so what's the difference? Don't be afraid to mass post to your Mailing Lists again and again. There is a constant turn over of subscribers to any Mailing List providing you new prospects for your marketing efforts. THE INTERNET gods HAVE SPOKEN! Your Mailing-List SYOP will say to you "The Internet gods have spoken. You are FOREVER BANNED from ever using our Mailing-List again"! They will put a block on your current net address preventing you access. HOWEVER, each time you change Service Providers ... guess what? You have a NEW E-Mail Address! The Mailing-List computer site is kind of stupid and doesn't recognize that you're the same person. This also works if you change Mail programs to the "same" Service Provider. Just a slight change in your mail program will do the trick! Example: Just change from Eudora to Pine and AWAY YOU GO AGAIN! NETIQUETTE? WHAT THE @#^%* IS THAT!? "I do know one thing about Netiquette, not very many users practice it!" The Net is totally unregulated and governed by something called "Netiquette." However, you can within reason, disregard Netiquette because of the constantly changing self imposed rules and hypocrisy of most of the users. If you don't believe this, just monitor some News Groups and you will soon agree! Keep in mind that the Internet community strongly supports First Amendment Rights, including the right to distribute and promote explicit pornography, text and all sorts of weird ideas and Weirdo's. However, at the same time, a small vocal minority will object, oppose and seek to censor an innocent commercial message. ... GO FIGURE!! 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I will set up your mass posting program for a total of $425.00. Avoid the need to sit in front of your computer downloading E-Mail addresses for literally months at a time! I can launch your program within days of receiving your order! REMEMBER: You DO NOT have to own a computer! However, you must be able to receive and answer thousands of inquires from interested prospects! I can also attach a GIF or JPEG file to your message at no additional charge! This is a file that appears as a separate attachment to your E-Mail. The file appears on your prospects screen as a quality full page color or black & white advertisement. (You will have to provide the Art work. Lay out must be no larger than an 8 1/2 x 11.) Cost includes set-up, consultation and running of program on your Internet account. To begin your Internet Advertising Campaign, please call or write to: Jeff Slaton 5901 J Wyoming Bld N E Suite #284 Albq., NM 87109 CALL (505) 821-1945 voice mail Please leave your name, complete address and phone number. (Sorry, but incomplete information will not receive a reponse) The following must be signed and dated with your order. DISCLAIMER: Advertising on the Internet is new and controversial. You may receive protesting phone calls or be the object of electronic attacks if you engage in it, particularly on a mass basis. The use of mass posting programs is highly controversial. Mr. Jeff Slaton acts only as a programmer and consultant for such services and has no control over what may occur in such cases. The purchaser agrees to hold Mr. Jeff Slaton, his employees, and representatives harmless from any and all repercussions resulting from the use of mass posting programs or services purchased from Mr. Jeff Slaton including but not limited to electronic attacks and suspension of purchasers Internet account. Please accept my order for the above. I have agreed to the terms and conditions as stated above. Representative________________________________________________ Name: Jeff Slaton Customer Signature X______________________, Date X______________ Please Print Name ______________________________________ Title:___________________ Phone Number___________________ Address________________________ _______________________________ _______________________________ Please remit full payment via Check or Money Order to: JEFF SLATON 5901 J WYOMING BLVD NE, SUITE 284 ALBUQUERQUE, NEW MEXICO 87109 copyright@1995 All Rights Reserved ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Sep 1995 21:55:40 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SKOEHN@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU Subject: "Lurking Questionnaire" Comments: To: fusion@zorch.sf-bay.org, fuzzy-mail@vexpert.dbai.tuwein.ac.at This post is a simple questionnaire on the topic of "lurking" on bulletin boards. This questionnaire is for a research study for graduate course work in electronic communication. Your assistance is appreciated. Please note that all responses are voluntary and will be kept confidential. Thank you for your help. Question 1: What are your feelings regarding the phenomenon of "lurking" on bulletin boards? Question 2: What benefits or detriments do you feel or associate with "lurking" on a bulletin board? Question 3: Are there any similarities between your willingness to communicate to others in person and your willingness to post? Reply to: skoehn@wvnvm.wvnet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:58:00 +0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: RFC822 error: Original tag data was -> aist (Scientific Aist Technical Infocenter of Russia) Comments: Resent-From: aist (Scientific Aist Technical Infocenter of Russia) Comments: Originally-From: aist@glas.apc.org (Scientific Aist Technical Infocenter of Russia) From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer Subject: SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL INFORMATION (VNTIC) THE SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL INFORMATION CENTRE OF RUSSIA: Status and Activities The Scientific and Technical Information Centre of Russia (the Russian acronym - VNTIC) is a nation-wide (i.e. federal) information institution responsabile for the maintenance of the complete all-Russia (before 1991 - all-Union) fund for scientific R&D reports (projects) and dissertations (candidate and doctoral). The presentation of the documents to the VNTIC fund is obligatory for all the organizations engaged in state budgeted scientific research and development and is carried out in accordance with the Federal Law of the Russian Federation, adopted by Russian Parlament and published in January 17, 1995. The fund is supported in two forms: human-redable full-text primary documents (reports and dissertations), stored on microfiches; machine-redable (secondary) documents, contaning bibliographic descriptions and abstracts of the primary ducuments and stored in database structure to provide online information search and retrival. Thus, VNTIC is original database geneator. For more 25 year of VNTIC existence there are above 5 million documents tatally accumulated in the fund reflecting state-of the main results of R&D activities undertaken in the former Soviet Union (FSU) and now in Russia and civering all the areas of human knowledge including not only exect, natural and engineering sciences and technology but also social sciences, the humanities, arts, medicine and religion. The uniqueness of the VNTIC fund is twofold: the documents presented in the fund are not being published and circulated i.e. they exist only in two type- or computer-written copies on of which belongs to the author of the source institution and the other goes to VNTIC and since the documents are not available elsewhere including such fomous Russian information institutions like The All-Russia institution for Scientific and Technical Information (VINITI), International Centre for Scientific and Technical Information (ICSTI) and largest regional information centres; the information from the documents becomes available to users with the least possible delay of about 2-3 months as compared to 1-2 years for the same (or even less complete) information to appear in a published form (in journals, book, monographs). The VNTIC fund, therefore, is an integral part of the national scientific and cultural wealth of the Russia and undoubtfully is of the world importance and value. In the long run the information from the fund may save billions of dollars to the world scientific community providing information on the expensive and sometimes harmful to human health and environment researches (say, in chemistry or nuclear physics) that have already been carried out in the FSU or Russia. The fund and the databases of VNTIC are of great interest not only to specialists but also to generalists - economists, politologists, ecologists or NGOlogists - who are engaged in transformation research concerning Russia and FSU. The fund and databases allow VNTIC to provide users with the following kinds of services: - publishing the abstract journals on 28 series; - partial database dessemination in machine-readable from on different subject areas; - online and delay search database access; - translating the abstracts of reports and dissertations into English language databases; - publishing the English language abstracted editions on 10 series; - publishing the Russian and English version of the R&D organization directories; - database on CD-ROM with the Russian and English language documents. For more information, call or write: VNTIC, 14, Smolnaya St., Moscow, 125493, Russia tel/fax: +(095)456-8593 E-mail: aist@glas.apc.org fax: +(095)456-7521 aistmain@vntic.msk.su ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 21:11:57 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tim Meyer Organization: Newbridge Networks Corp Subject: Anyone out there??? I have been watching this list for a week or so, as I am interested in the possibility of building a geodesic home. Am I in the right place?? tim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ Tim Meyer 600 March Road, | Witty comment out Sales Mgr, Central America Kanata, ON, Canada | for repair. Normal Peru, and Bolivia K2K 2E6 | service will resume Newbridge Networks Corporation | shortly. fone - (613) 591-6300 fax - (613) 599-3611 | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:05:25 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Invention The quote relating to the discussion of Kirrby and James. Fuller wrote:Tax-hungry goverment and profit-hungry business, for the moment, find it insurmountable difficult to arrange to put meters between humanity and its cosmic-energy income, and thus they do nothing realistic to help humanity enjoy its faboulous energy-income wealth-in fact they send their goverment "revenooers" out into the mountain forest to fine and to destroy the equipment of any civilian so"treacherous" as to apply private enterprise in the alcohol-from-Sun-energy-photosynthesis harvesting to personal advantagin. if any citizens start making their own automobile-powering alchol, the revenooers will have to pounce on them just as they do on those making moonshine "likker". This might relate to inventers but it shows an example of who is in control. As conserning the inventor, it is well known that by the begining of the 20 century the corporation begin to absorb all the creative individuals, and the freedom of initive enjoyed by 19 century scientist was long gone. relating to alchol, Brazil uses, as it is well known, in it's automobiles. Does anyone know the % in relation to the total fuel used.It could be the example many areas of the world will need to follow. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:14:35 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: feedback Folks, Try best to be informative instead of going into curves. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 12:14:36 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Kwatt > >I read that 1kw is = to 100 watt lamb that is on for 10 hours. >In 1920 average human used, i forgot i must look at the book >but realy these units and the figures i found in books can >make one go grazy. >i suggest that we put the whole dam thing in easy language >easy units. i am comfortable with Kw and foot pound. >i remmbered hundreds of figures, but no use, later i forget. >but i would like to have a very accurte picture of energy use. > >I like this fact:The USA uses 7 cents of every dollar in energy >and energy contribute 4% of its Gnp. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 07:24:14 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Blaine DAmico Subject: Re: Anyone out there??? In-Reply-To: <4475ut$r28@kannews.ca.newbridge.com> ure Tim. Messages go in fits and starts on geodesic. Hang out for a couple of weeks and you should get some good advice. Have you checked out the FAQ, yet? On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, Tim Meyer wrote: > I have been watching this list for a week or so, as I am interested in > the possibility of building a geodesic home. Am I in the right place?? > > tim > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~ > Tim Meyer 600 March Road, | Witty comment > out > Sales Mgr, Central America Kanata, ON, Canada | for repair. > Normal > Peru, and Bolivia K2K 2E6 | service will > resume > Newbridge Networks Corporation | shortly. > fone - (613) 591-6300 fax - (613) 599-3611 | > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~~~~~ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 14:34:23 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Invention tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL wrote: >The quote relating to the discussion of Kirrby and James. >Fuller wrote:Tax-hungry goverment and profit-hungry business, for the >moment, find it insurmountable difficult to arrange to put meters >between humanity.... >...if any citizens start making their own automobile-powering alchol, >the revenooers will have to pounce on them just as they do on those making >moonshine "likker". If you call the ATF, you will find that this is no longer true, if it ever was. If you wanted a permit to make Fuel alchohol, it would take perhaps a month to get the permit, worst case. The AFT is not concerned with small-scale production of a substance that is clearly not fit to drink. They are also not worried about someone who is willing to inform them of his/her intentions. As long as you do not sell your product to others, there is no regulation of your activities, save the usual concerns as to environmental impact of your by-products and waste (this is a state or county-level concern). > This might relate to inventers but it shows an example of who is > in control. I think it more clearly shows that Bucky either was "down" on the "revenooers", or did not know the difference between moonshine (not a fuel-grade item) and a decent fuel-grade product. Given the time and place, a still was a source of moonshine, not the tool of a researcher or a serious self-reliant tinkerer. I have a few books on the subject, but have never prototyped anything in this area. My land is not suited to growing crops like corn, given my steep slopes and woods that I can't bear to clear. > As conserning the inventor, it is well known that by the begining > of the 20 century the corporation begin to absorb all the > creative individuals, and the freedom of initive enjoyed by > 19 century scientist was long gone. Yeah, but the "downsizing" trend by the large corporations, combined with the "I want out" trend among employees is creating a newly-independent class of free agents. I am not the only one who has discovered that the only way to win the corporate game is not to play. The corporation/university funded research game still exists, and is required for major projects. Most of the folks trapped in this particular hell may never see the "outside world", simply due to the minimum ante required to set up a lab. Even though trapped, funding cuts are forcing many researchers out into the cold cruel world to find a day-job. So, one is forced to stop splitting atoms for a living, and do something "lower-tech", like... ummm, ahhh, maybe some of the things we talk about on this list! > relating to alchol, Brazil uses, as it is well known, in > it's automobiles. Does anyone know the % in relation to the total > fuel used.It could be the example many areas of the world > will need to follow. I can't find my books on the subject, but I know that one can make a few minor modifications to any pre-emission controlled car (pre-computer controlled is also a big help) to run it on 100% alchohol. A few more changes, and you can run on methane or propane. Get a little more fancy, and you can run on hydrogen, but not too far, as you need a hydrogen "gas tank" the size of a tractor-trailer for a long trip. Does any of this make economic sense? Not under the current subsidized pricing schemes for "conventional fuels". Will methane and/or hydrogen beat Gasahol, despite the promotional efforts of the Cargil corporation? Could be... As an aside, if one can grow enough corn (or whatever) to distill into fuel, one could be growing food instead. I would propose that food should be our first concern. If we feed everyone, we can ride bicycles or walk (it works in China!). If we can't feed everyone, driving at 65 Mph past starving people seems stupid. Fuel should be made from waste products. One should not be forced to decide between food and fuel. Therefore, methane seems a "better" long-term bet, cause you can make methane from any old plant material and/or animal waste by-products. Make peace with your Enemy. With whom ELSE can you make peace? james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com The Information Supercollider Split infinitives, not atoms! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 23:31:32 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Anthony Kalenak Organization: The Pipeline Subject: Re: Anyone out there??? There is a gold mine of info in past postings...and in the archives. Hey, Joe....where are you? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:15:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Frank Davis Subject: Re: "Lurking Questionnaire" In-Reply-To: from "SKOEHN@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU" at Sep 24, 95 09:55:40 pm SKOEHN@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU wrote: > > This post is a simple questionnaire on the topic of "lurking" > on bulletin boards. This questionnaire is for a research study for > graduate course work in electronic communication. Your assistance > is appreciated. Please note that all responses are voluntary and > will be kept confidential. Thank you for your help. > > Question 1: What are your feelings regarding the phenomenon of I see nothing wrong with it, as long as you have similar aims or interests.> "lurking" on bulletin boards? > > Question 2: What benefits or detriments do you feel or associate > with "lurking" on a bulletin board? Just a chance to look or learn.> > Question 3: Are there any similarities between your willingness > to communicate to others in person and your willingness > to post? > yes, but only in a small way. > Reply to: skoehn@wvnvm.wvnet.edu > -- F. Willis Davis UPDATE Magazine!, Editor P.O. Box 17 Mexico, IN 46958 fdavis@holli.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:17:03 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Kwatt (rate of flow of energy) and watt-hours (watts-flowing times hours-they-flew) is an -amount- of energy -- what they charge you for at the end o`the month!... as for our humor, I'n not con-veenced that your grok of Eeeeengleeeesh is adequate to the task of knowing where to look, Mohammed, just as my Arabic really sucks cameldung! ----- The Palmtree BBS 310-453-8726 v.32 Inet: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:08:20 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Amature sketch of Fuller from the iside sprenkeled with little humor Oh that was a good nap, ya what was i thinking befor the nap yes --- how to huise one million people. Now i must ask my self what are the variables (may be i should only use verbs) Oh i forgot i must start with Universe and i have a damn(I sould not use such words)good definition of it, but keep watch may be there is a missing data, then my next step would be let me think think think yes where should I build this city.... that is no problem at all. In the sea( the world being 70 % water, that would be good finite place.... so be it.. hm i wonder why i am not laughing today, well the hell with it there are more days to come forword looking you know hahaha. variables variable variables to tell you` the truth i feel a bit isolated today... This was really without much wit, but i thought may be some people out there could write something about Fuller inside as he sees himself, not what he writes. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Sep 1995 11:57:34 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Doubtful teases The use of in and out might help the brain in changing its coordination to geo-field, that at least what i take the hint of fuller to mean. the use of up and down is extensive not only in directions but they are also used as shades in other phrases such as up turn sheer up, mixed up jot it down, down with the king keep it up and hundreds of others. What i noticed about the dutch languge is that they are in love with op( you know really my english is bad becuse of the competing dutch hahaha). op de tafel is on the table; op de eerst verdebeing is in the first floor you can see the op poping up. they took up of america i think becuse they loved(e.commings) American bumburgs, but in any case they are probably more impresioned by Rome cosmological model than let us say the English. So texts and daily conversation is full of such shades, borrowing from a book about english prose i call these phrases corners or curves. i could assume that reading texts and talking follows this curves and corners, which could mean that i turn in my brain trying to follow the dialogue or the conversation. To put it in other words languge of text works as a sign-posts going from one place to another. so let us say i turn 1000 turns to read 100 page. the turns are cartesian xyz coordinated, which means i use 3 times ruduendent volume, and also going through from one sentence to the other in the trafic jam of classical victorial sumation goemtry. It is well known in urbun geography that humans make maps in thier brain of many areas of thier consern, so when you go in the direction of main street you know what is there, i thought this might have a relation to language and how the texts introjected the xyz of the landscape inside thier reseanting rythems. you can almost hear the horses walking in Dead Souls and Tolostoy Chilhood (only" red" few pages of these). I hope by the end of this you are imagining Escher works and are now going into vertigou and looking forward to how it would be like to read and think in in out ways. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 05:06:37 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Solar airships Enough of this PV talk. Let's talk about a more practical form of solar energy--solar heated balloons. A net.friend says: >I'm also into airships, the kind that haven't been built since the >thirties. I'm fascinated by them. It's unfortunate that the lack of >readily available helium gas and the onset of a stupid war effectively >killed the age of the airship. My plan is this. Built an airship using >modern aluminium and fabrics. I'm thinking of a big ship, in the order of >four or five times the size of the Hinderburg. Purdy big... Have you read John McPhee's book about modern airships? It originally appeared in the New Yorker magazine, under the title "The Deltoid Pumpkin Seed." He suggests building large thick delta-wing- shaped airships. One might power an airship by somehow making it rise and fall through the air, and turning the vertical motion into horizontal motion by controlling the orientation: if it is falling and we tilt the back end so it is above the forward end, it should move forward, no? If it is rising, the forward end should be higher... Bucky talked about large floating structures supported by solar hot air. >The airship is black and the inside of the envelope is lined with highly >reflective material. The idea is that any sunlight falling on the airship >will heat up the envelope. Sounds good so far. What's the reflective material for? >Because of the foil or what ever you've got inside the envelope >gains heat slowly, providing the airship with increasingly more lifting >power. The longer you remain airborne the better the efficiency of the >system. I would just make a transparent envelope outside a black one. Or an envelope that is transparent on one half and black on the other, if we can keep the transparent side aimed at the sun. Or an envelope that has one transparent side and one aluminized mylar side, with a small, high-thermal-mass (eg black water balloon) target in the center, surrounded by a small insulating transparent envelope, with the outside balloon oriented so that the sun passes through the transparent side and gets reflected and concentrated by the shiny side onto the black target. >Excess helium can be tapped off and recompressed... Helium? How about just solar heated air? This would work better with a large airship. The volume, ie lifting force, increases with the cube of the dimension, while the weight of the structure increases with the square, as does the solar collecting area. If our airship material weighs, say, 1 pound/200 ft^2 (eg heat sealable Tedlar PVF film), and it has an R-value of 1 ft^2-F/Btu, and it receives 1000 Btu/ft^2/day, and the outside temp is, say, 62 F, what is the minimum size it has to be to hold itself up, day and night? Air at 5000' and 62 F weighs 0.0625 lbs/ft^2... In full sun, a r' radius sphere, say, for starters, containing some sort of internal solar absorbing black cloud, surrounded by a transparent skin, would have a solar collecting area of pi r^2, and four times that area for heat loss purposes, so if it absorbs 1000 pi r^2 Btu over 24 hours, and it has an internal temperature Ts, in 62 F surrounding air, it will lose 24 hours x (Ts-62) x 4 pi r^2/R1 Btu in a day. So if the solar energy that flows into the sphere during a day equals the heat energy that flows out of the sphere during a day, the internal air temperature of the sphere would be such that 1000 x pi r^2 = 24 (Ts-62) 4 pi r^2, or equivalently 1000 = 24 (Ts-62) x 4, or Ts = 62 + 1000/96 = 62 + 10.4 = 72.4 F. How much would this air weigh? As I recall, Rho(83) = Rho(62) x (459+62)/(459+72) = 0.0625 x 521/531 = 0.0613 lbs/ft^3. So the net lifting force is 0.0625 - 0.0613 = 0.0012 lb/ft^3. The balloon would weigh 4 pi r^2/200 lbs, and it would have a volume of 4/3 pi r^3, so it should be self-supporting when 4 pi r^2/200 = 4/3 pi r^3 x 0.0012, or r = 3/(200 x 0.0012) = 12'. Hmmm. A 24' diameter balloon. Not very big... :-) BTW, Charlie Overton's 1980 US Patent No. 4,237,868 "Solar Heating Balloon" describes a tethered balloon being used as a solar thermal collector, filled with a gas, lighter than air, with a pair of fluid conduits to conduct a working fluid from the balloon to the ground and back... As a working fluid, he suggests water containing a black dye or finely divided carbon black, atomized into a very fine mist exposed to the sun. >The airship is essentially a leisure vehicle, like a large yacht. It takes 3 >days to cross the Atlantic in a Hinderburg class ship with two 1938 vintage >diesels. Modern engines with modern propellors could easily do as well. If we stored the heat in the thermal mass center, we could make the balloon slowly rise and fall by opening and closing a vent in the transparent envelope covering the center, perhaps with a fan, or we might vent some steam from the thermal mass center to lighten the balloon and heat up the internal air, which would make the balloon rise as the steam pushed it along. Then the vent to the thermal mass would be closed and the balloon would fall as the inside air lost heat through the skin. How long it would take to cross the Atlantic that way? Not so fast as the Concorde, but consuming far less than the Concorde's one TON of jet fuel per passenger crossing. >I can picture this in mind right now. An enormous graceful black airship >sailing across the New York or Paris landscapes. All it needs is some >modern technology. Yup :-) Nick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 22:47:18 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Anthony Kalenak Organization: The Pipeline Subject: Re: Solar airships Nick, Have you tried to make a physical model of a solar powered airship. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 10:57:25 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Doubtful teases you smokin`some o`that fine, Amsterdammian ganga, Mohammed?... anyway, I'd say that the cubical coordination's only 3/2 (1.5) times as "redundant", if that, taking the average between the tetrah.& octah., -both- of which're needed to fill space; or, you can construct it like this: scoop the A-quanta modules from the facets of the octah., and apply them to facets of the (two, complememtary) tetrah.; this gives you two equivolumed (two tetravols, ea.): the triakis tetrah. (of 48 A-qms) and the "triasuk" octah. (of 48 B-qms). that is my coolest "uncovery". ----- The Palmtree BBS 310-453-8726 v.32 Inet: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 11:40:58 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: J S Carlarne I would like to subscribe.