From MAILER-DAEMON@netaxs.com Sat Apr 26 19:17:48 1997 Return-Path: <> Received: from deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu (deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.57]) by access.netaxs.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA04535 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:17:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199704262317.TAA04535@access.netaxs.com> Received: (qmail 29574 invoked from network); 26 Apr 1997 23:17:32 -0000 Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 26 Apr 1997 23:17:31 -0000 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 19:17:31 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8c)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9512" To: cjf@NETAXS.COM Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 02:23:57 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David F. Watkins" Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane In-Reply-To: <199511302233.RAA13674@mailbox.syr.edu> On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, David T. Middleton wrote: > It seems to me that these fuels still contain carbon and hence when burned > will produce CO2, a green house gas. What non carbon options do we have > besides hydrogen and solar? > David T. Middleton > Adjunct Prof Materials and Processes > Syracuse University > None that I can think of. I find it interesting that some of the proposals from the field of nanotechnology would have us using the CO2 in our atmosphere as the raw material for the fabrication of basic building materials. The energy source for this would be solar so the total process would improve the environment. Bucky discussed pollution as a failure to use resources to their fullest. If nanotechnology can be developed, it would seem to be ideally suited for this role. Dave Watkins ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:35:45 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: new addition to "toy" index In Message Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:04:23 +0000 (GMT), Kirby Urner writes: >Marcia Blackburn wrote: > >>I've just picked up a wonderful icosahedron toy at the Museum of Modern >>Art in New York. It's called "The Original Skwish Classic" and is >>manufactured by Pappa Gepetto's Toys Victoria Ltd., Box 98, Victoria, >>B.C. V8W 2M4 CANADA. It's made of multicolored wood parts connected with >>black tension cable. Entrancing! >> >>- Marcia Blackburn >> >>oh, it was $16.00. > >Does it have little bells and sliders on the wood parts? >Sounds like the tensegrity my daughter (18 months) likes to play with. >Sold in Portland as a kid's toy. this toy is also sold in Holland at least in Uterecht and it seems to be doing fine becuse a lot of is sold this babies will know tension and little compression. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:59:43 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane In Message Thu, 30 Nov 1995 18:04:11 -0500, James Fischer writes: >David T. Middleton said: > >>It seems to me that these fuels still contain carbon and hence when burned >>will produce CO2, a green house gas. What non carbon options do we have >>besides hydrogen and solar? > > In order of probability of being a "real solution" in the real world: > > Low-Head Hydropower > Solar (Passive) > Solar (Water or Rock Store) > Solar (Phase-Change Salts) > Solar (Solar Cells) > Wind > Geothermal > Hydrogen > Wave Action > > What smells so bad? Perhaps it is that New World Odor everyone is talking >about > I want to bring Nick Pine into this he told me that solar energy is not economical in these days, i myself red that in order to change a country to solar energy system, meaning the whole infrastucture, you need minmum of 40 years. as far as i know only 1 to 2 % of energy is supplied by wind solar neuclear. Industry uses 30% of total energy in U.S, that will be smiliar to many other countries, 30% in transportation. this is bulky may be some one know better. the energy situation is very sophisticated, here in Holland most of the windows have no drapers, Holland have 5% of world natural gas, and inspite of the much talk about Holland as being green it is really totally irresponsible an nonsense. in U.S 70% of electricity can be saved by year 2000, burucracy is simple automatic minded, are the same, and give the same response. I am beging to believe that if there is major change is going to come from U.S. i think Europe is shuffling 200 years behind, they trive on creating more entropy. i geuss we need another virtual map with all the data so we know or they know what is at hand. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:18:19 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: system theory It is time to go to system theory we need some synergy i have few scattred notes with no coherence which might ring a bell. various completely disconnnected but quasi simultanous processes form a stocahatic realm - if they are of the same kind, it is possible to describe them in general form by statistical function example bubbles- traffic -bird singing - " it is frequently possible by harmonic analysis to extract some, or even many regular cyclical curves from a complex one and these components can generally be associated with some regulatory system of causes and retroactions." anyone know what they are talking about Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:26:16 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: defence and value of the dollar U.S defence budget in 1939 was 1.4 billion dollar 1.4% of GNP this made me think again that can not be since that means 140 billion of GNP. the US went from 140 billion to 4 or 5 trillion in 1985 that is very high rise, if it goes in this level ....... my estimation, with no study at all, that the value of the dollar now is about 10 times less the value in 1900. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:34:16 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Re[2]: maps In-Reply-To: <30NOV95.11569909.0344.MUSIC@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU>; from "Art Scott" at Nov 30, 95 10:42 am Art Scott writes: > Appendix A of my report has a copy of those coordinates. If anyone > wants them, I'll scan them in and send them. > If anyone wants a copy of the whole report, I'll consider scanning > the entire report. Figures will be a problem. I have a WWW page, if > that is feasible. YES. Could you put your entire paper in your web page? What is your web page address? -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:13:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: METHANE Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com In-Reply-To: <199511300616.AA11285@unix.nets.com>; from "chardhawk@nets.com" at Nov 29, 95 11:11 pm chardhawk@nets.com writes: > > Very interesting, Tagdi. Your comprehensive approach to gathering > information is a real contribution to the list. Can anyone shed more light > on this molecular structure of methane? > > Richard Hawkins (chardhawk@nets.com) > Methane: CH4; 4 hydrogen atoms around 1 carbon atom. The hydrogen atoms form a tetrahedron with the carbon atom in the middle. See Linus Pauling's books such as _College Chemistry_, _The Architecture of Molecules_, and _The Nature of the Chemical Bond_. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:39:57 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane In-Reply-To: <199511302233.RAA13674@mailbox.syr.edu>; from "David T. Middleton" at Nov 30, 95 5:34 pm David T. Middleton writes: > > It seems to me that these fuels still contain carbon and hence when burned > will produce CO2, a green house gas. What non carbon options do we have > besides hydrogen and solar? > David T. Middleton > Adjunct Prof Materials and Processes > Syracuse University > WIND. See _Earth, Energy, and Everyone_ by Medard Gabel, pages 118-30. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 17:53:42 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: On the Concept of Race (from sci.philosophy.meta) daniel.hoffman@republic.netaxs.com (Daniel Hoffman) wrote: >Dave Hauten (hatunen@netcom.com) makes the claim that races >do not exist. He said: > >D>You are arguing from a flawed assumption: that something definable >as "race" exists. > >"Race" exists precisely because it is definable. While the case >of people of mixed ancestry blurs the boundaries, the distinguishing >features of race are obvious. To deny the obvious is to display >clear evidence of either a hidden agenda or an affliction with a >gratuitous dogma. What are you up to? I would side with those who hold that the concept of 'race' is a crummy one and deserves a phase-out. Not so long ago, people talked about "octamaroon" as in 1/8th black, as if 'blackness' were some genetic trait that could be divided or subdivided, some element in the blood (a carryover from the days when aristocrats claimed they were 'blue bloods' -- and meant it). True enough, people can be pigeon-holed by genetic characteristics into groupings, now identified as 'racial' -- but the groupings of genetic characteristics identified with a race are not intrinsic to any race. Caucasians in Bangladesh have darker skin than many Negroids. Skin color, eye shape etc. are inheritable in a wide mix, many of which are not so common today, but so what? Why should an Amerasian kid be labeled as "mixed race" as if almond eyes and white skin were somehow derivative of the "real bonafide races", as if the genetic groupings we're most familiar with deserve enshrinement in some museum as the ultimate baseline, and the exchange of genetic traits down through the ages should always trace back to a snap-shot of today ("I'm 1/3rd causcasian, 1/4 negroid, 1/4 asian, and the rest miscellaneous" -- what nonsense!). Contemporary anthropology is largely unhappy with the 'race' concept and it is neither radical nor marginal to suggest phasing it out of serious anthropology. The sci.anthropology FAQ asks: Q: How many races of humans are there? A: One. I do indeed hold that a 'racist' is 'someone who believes in races' and say this on my web page: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/terms.html, where my text reads: No Race, No Class Western science originally portraryed race and class as characteristics of a person's blood which, as such, could be subdivided in proportion to a person's ancestry, "blood" being treated as a mathematical quantity, contributed in equal proportions by one's parents. Hence such terms as "octamaroon" (one eighth black). Whereas "class" is no longer regarded as a genetic entity, "race" has remained a popular concept for grouping genetic characteristics, even if the link to blood is no longer made. Like anthropologist Ashley Montague, Fuller felt the concept of "race" had outlived its usefulness, that the cross-breeding of the world's people, especially evident in North America, was exposing the old racial categories as mere snap-shots of genetic traits thrown together by the exigencies of time, but available in any number of permutations from that vast grab bag of traits known as the human gene pool. In the Fuller lexicon, a racist is perhaps most straightfowardly defined as someone who believes in races. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 22:53:58 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) dave suwala wrote: > > the environment that we all live within spirals down to a low gravy > anyway. I always wonder whether our efforts in space will be > rewarded by a breakout from this injured earth. But I guess that > men will be as damaging to the galaxy and universe as they have been > to Bangladesh, NYC, our fishing grounds, etc. I wonder whether we > will use up all of the convenient chemical fuel before we develop > systems (Biosphere 2, for example) capable of enabling us to survive > in space or on the planets and grab and use more stuff exponentially > and synergetically. > > Where can I find "Grunch of Giants"? Always looking for more > literature on Bucky Fuller. > > Compassionately but stoically, > > Dave.Suwala@Reichhold.com Kid: will we ever go into space Bucky? Bucky: we're already in space, dearie [paraphrase] World Game data indicated, up to at least a few years ago, we had the ingredients for planetary success on a sustainable basis. Probably still do. Bangladesh, where I've lived some (parents more) ain't so bad, environmentally speaking, but could easily be made worse if some of the new megaprojects being eyed by the lenders are put through. Throwing up one's hands and turning towards space is defeatism in my view. This biosphere/spaceship is as good as any within a huge number of light years, most likely. Silly to give up on it. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 22:55:01 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: On Virtualizing Government: A Design Science Approach pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote: > >Distribution: unrestricted > > ON VIRTUALIZING GOVERNMENT: A DESIGN SCIENCE APPROACH > by Kirby Urner > 11-30-95 This essay webified at: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/usaos2.html Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 22:56:15 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) and the Fuller Projection pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote: > >Thoughts on Bosnia (only tangentially related actually) > This essay webified at: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bosnia.html Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 18:17:41 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BF'S UNIVERSE CONTENTS OF _BUCKMINSTER FULLER'S UNIVERSE_ by Lloyd S. Sieden (1989) FOREWORD by Norman Cousins PREFACE 1. COMPREHENSIVE HERITAGE 2 drawings, 5 pics 2. EXPERIENTIAL EDUCATION 4 drawings 3. LESSONS OF LOVE, WAR, AND TECHNOLOGY 3 pics 4. YEARS OF DETERIORATION 5. EMERGENCE FROM THE ASHES 1 drawing, 2 pics 6. INVENTIONS ABOUND 3 pics 7. VEHICLE OF THE FUTURE 3 drawings, 2 pics 8. A CAR IS BORN 2 pics 9. PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS 1 drawing, 6 pics 10. SEARCHING FOR PERSPECTIVE 4 drawings, 1 pic 11. EXPANDING THE VIEW 1 drawing, 4 pics 12. A HOME AT LAST 1 drawing, 6 pics 13. CONSCIOUS THOUGHT 2 drawings, 2 pics 14. STRUCTURES EMERGE 13 pics 15. EXPANDING GLOBALLY 16 pics 16. WORLD-GAME ABUNDANCE 1 drawing, 1 pic 17. LEGACY TO THE FUTURE 7 pics CHRONOLOGY OF THE LIFE OF R.B.FULLER (1895-1983) SOURCE NOTES INDEX -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 23:12:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume syncswim@world.std.com (Steven L Combs) wrote: >"Arithmetical three-dimensionality is identified with volumetric space >growth rates; >Arithmetical four-dimensionality is unidentifiable geometrically; " > > Synergetics 240.44 > > Of course Bucky uses the term dimension in many different ways at >different times, but these corollaries apply to the question of defining >objects in space. Early versus Later Definitions of Dimension Let's look at some of Fuller's usage patterns surrounding the word "dimension", quoting from the Synergetics Dictionary: "[Synergetics originates] in the assumption that dimension must be physical. It follows that, inasmuch as physical universe is entirely energetic, all dimension must be energetic. Vectors and tensors constitute all elementary dimension" (April, 1949) 1:498:5 "The word 'space' is conceptually meaningless and dimensions may only be expressed in magnitudes of time, energy, frequency concentrations and angular modulations." (June, 1966) 1:497:8 "Time and heat and longevity and weight are inherent in every dimension. Ergo, time is no more the fourth dimension than it is the first, second, or third dimensions. No time: no dimension." (Dec, 1971) 1:497:4 The above quotes show clearly that Fuller wanted to invest dimensions with physical, energetic content. Back then, dimension without substance was inconceivable in synergetics. Certainly time was not some independent, substanceless dimension, as conventional physics seemed to assert -- rather time was the "only dimension" (spatiotemporal was quasi-synonymous with dimensional).7 But Fuller did not stick to this usage. As time went on, he evolved the notion of abstract vs energetic, such that a "prefrequency" tetrahedron, irrespective of any special case manifestation, had "primitive dimensionality" (2:527.26). Dimension begins at four. Four-dimensionality is primitive and exclusively within the primitive systems' relative topological abundances and relative interangular proportionment. Four-dimensionality is eternal, generalized, sizeless, unfrequenced. (2:1033.611) This idea that "dimension begins at four" perpetuates Fuller's sense that "heighth, width and breadth" only co-occur and have no conceptually independent existence: all "three" dimensions presupposed space, or volume, which is irreducible to component dimensions. To assert the "four dimensionality" of space would appear to suggest a meaning would attach to one, two and three dimensions, but this was not Fuller's intent. Rather he was attempting to seize hold of the tetrahedron as the most primitive container, and use something like the well-entrenched mutually orthogonal Cartesian axes to signify his alternative intuition, that a container has at minimum four facets, and that this fourness somehow deserves primacy in our thinking, over the Cartesian facination with threeness. [From my 8 page paper ON REDEFINING "DIMENSION" IN SYNERGETICS (Aug 30, 1995) available via my web site (see http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ku_gall.html)] > > Bucky did not invent the tetrahedron nor was he the first dome-builder. Nature has been deploying both for billions of years. See my http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/dome.html for more on the Jena dome. >However, his quanta modules are original (to my knowledge) and are >actually the units of volume that Synergetics is built upon. The A, B, >and T quanta are equi-volumed (1/24th unit tetrahedron) assymetrical >tetrahedra. Only the T-mod is any good for dealing with 5-fold symmetric shapes and alone can't do much. David Koski has done a lot to develop a vocabulary of T-mod cousins which, when phi-scaled (resized), combine to build most of the familiar (and unfamiliar) 5-fold symmetric shapes. Fuller also derived an S-module, but didn't live long enough to use it much (or might have let it fall by the wayside -- we'll never know). >But it would have been pointless to answer our questioner >with the response, "The volume of a tetrahedron is 24 quanta modules." >Unless, of course, she had asked for its quanta volume. > Since the quantas combine to fill allspace and can define both cubes >and tetrahedra (as well as the geodesics), these are the volumetric units >we should be using. Well, depends on the application. Sometimes we measure in cups, sometimes gallons. Sometimes A/B quanta, sometimes tetrahedra (sometimes cubes). >Interestingly, the A & B Isomatrix quanta 1/192 unit >tetrahedra are the electron models of the Synergetic Atomic Model and the >E Quanta is the strong force model. > Bucky's habit of considering any thing to be a spherical system with >12 degrees of freedom led him away from cartesian cubism, but we need to >be bi-lingual to avoid being hopelessly self-referential. Nobody says Cartesianism is 'hopelessly self-referential' -- I wonder why synergetics is so hopeless. >Sincerely, >Steven Combs >Syncorswim, Inc. > >p.s. - we never did hear back from that kid, did we? > What kid? -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 18:26:55 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY BOOKS I just located a great online bookstore that carries a lot of books about and by Fuller and geodesic domes. See: http://www.Amazon.com/ Search by author, title, and subject such as "buckminster" or "geodesic", etc. They also have audiotapes and videotapes! -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 12:56:03 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: syn-l: METHANE Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com Joy >Methane: CH4; 4 hydrogen atoms around 1 carbon atom. The hydrogen atoms form >a tetrahedron with the carbon atom in the middle. See Linus Pauling's books >such as _College Chemistry_, _The Architecture of Molecules_, and _The Nature >of the Chemical Bond_. Tagdi just a puzzle i thought that a tetraheron would not have an atom in the center. but if you think of an Octet Truss and you connect the center of tetras you get the rombic dodechedron(squashed sphervertaxias), may be they bubble out by leaving the matrex; just imagiation. i am used to tetra as having 4 vertexes and nothing in the middle this is nice even if it's rong conjunctuer becuse it gives a feeling of how energy and matter can start from Octet Truss. with almost no idea of chemistry i think this unifies the Octet Trust and rhombic dodecavertaxia or rather this last emerges out of the Octet Truss(multiplication by division) and the instruction to do so comes through the cosmic rails of the Victor Equilibruim, this could by how soap bubbles ar formed and change into other forms. the vertaxia vocabulary was used in FullerCosmography being in light with truths. God is the sumation of all truth of course we have a sentimental view of god. this realy strange thought but even the genetic code could be formed this way out of the field O.T ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:09:27 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Syn-l: METHANE >>chardhawk@nets.com writes: >>> >>> Very interesting, Tagdi. Your comprehensive approach to gathering >>> information is a real contribution to the list. Can anyone shed more light >>> on this molecular structure of methane? >>> >>> Richard Hawkins (chardhawk@nets.com) > > this is a high complement i do not know if i deserve it. > i like to feel i am contributing just a bit, but thanks anyway. > Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:22:12 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: On the Concept of Race (from sci.philosophy.meta) In the begining of the centuary there were more race classifiers than classification of race, for sure this is the time when Darwin went into currency if you look at picture of NY city these times were quite missirable, i remmber that some artist a photographs showing the other 1/2. i do not think that 50% were OK. the city of NY was full of Horse shit by product of horse transportation somthing to 100 million ton a year. i really think that race has to do with wealth and how hungry you are. the less you have the more heatred or annoyance you have. and you can see that in this suburb of Chicago the cheerleaders as if they want to protect what they have. radio became a house entertenment in 1920s ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 04:27:48 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Renewable energy sources James Fischer wrote: > In order of probability of being a "real solution" in the real world: > > Low-Head Hydropower > Solar (Passive) > Solar (Water or Rock Store) > Solar (Phase-Change Salts) > Solar (Solar Cells) > Wind > Geothermal > Hydrogen Interesting list. Hydropower is nice, but perhaps unavailable to most people, for various reasons. I know a couple of people who live on a very small creek, but they are not allowed to touch the creek, because of government regulations, altho they would like to use it for irrigation water and power. I like some passive solar heating systems, but completely passive systems that work well seem more expensive to build than systems with low power fans, since they need more materials and labor to make the larger structures required for purely convective airflow. People say "yes, you can do that with a passive system, but adding a small fan doubles the solar collection efficiency." I have a 1982 picture of a solar heated building with a caption "98% solar power, 2% fan power." [1] Why be purists? One challenge is to make this $37K system less expensive to build and operate, using thin polycarbonate vs. fiberglass glazing, a 36 watt fan instead of a 200 watt blower, a box full of water containers, vs. a rock bed, and more anticipatory design science :-) Passive systems can also use water and rock storage, eg Steve Baer's air-loop rock storage systems. Water seems better to me than rocks, because it's less expensive and easier to move around, and it has about three times more heat storage capacity by volume, with a lower thermal resistance. A box full of sealed containers of water can be a third as large as a rock bed, with lower airflow resistance, if air is used to transfer solar heat to the heat store. That means less fan power is needed to make the system work. Putting an air- water heat exchanger inside the heat battery seems like a good way to heat water for showers, etc., since it will work 24 hours a day, and never freeze. I haven't heard of any practical inexpensive phase change systems lately. People used to use Glauber's salts, but after a while, they got stuck and refused to change phase, unless they were somehow stirred up mechanically. Photovoltaics are still uneconomical, unless one lives in the woods, off the grid, and the electric company wants a lot of money for a connection. For the last 20 years, inexpensive PVs have been "just around the corner," because of a wonderful recent technical breakthrough. Hype. I'd list wind sooner than PVs. Small wind-electric generators are catching on. A 500 watt grid-tie inverter will help this along a lot. Solar panels with built-in inverters that plug into wall sockets to lower electric bills should also be coming quite soon. "Geothermal" as ground-source heat pumps seems promising. Tapping hot springs, etc, has serious corrosion problems, from what I hear. "Hydrogen" is unlike the rest of these energy sources. It's more of a way to store and transport energy. In the near term, natural gas is being used more and more for house heating and cooking, and perhaps electricity soon. Nick [1] US DOE Report Solar/2116-82/14, "Solar Energy System Performance Evaluation of Contemporary Systems, Inc., of Walpole, NH" available as order number DE83000068 from NTIS, Springfield, VA 22161. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 07:56:20 -0800 Reply-To: ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Denis F. Blue" Subject: On Virtualizing Government: A Design Science Approach Kirby Urner : good work on your paper "On Virtualizing Government: A Design Science Approach".(11-30-95) Your proposal for an alternate design philosophy to aid your government in seriously exploiting the advantages of cyberspace has great merit. This proposal describes with clarity the important benefits and feasibility of implementing this Design Science approach. With the greatest respect, your proposal is certainly in keeping with Bucky's exhortation to "Dare to be naive". I'm sure you won't be surprised if you and other like-minded people will have to promote these kinds of options without much support from your government. Don't hold your breath for anyone, particularly the powerful, to take the initiative. The powerful, as Bucky pointed out, basically subscribe to the operating philosophy of "keep the pikers out". As a result, the "pikers", the citizens in a land of plenty, are impoverished artificially. The Virtual Government proposal would help provide access to the power rightfully due your citizens , and would challenge these alleged democrats in government to recycle their rhetoric , or else expose their systematic exclusivity. Good luck with this. -- ### ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:49:32 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane Tagdi said: > I want to bring Nick Pine into this he told me that solar > energy is not economical in these days, Well, that seems strange, given that Nick seems to know all the basic math required to make solar-driven systems work. One would hope that he could do some math with dollar signs in front, and figure out how to justify the investment required to implement a design. My model is simple - let's say the house of your dreams would cost $100,000 US. Let's be really depressing, and estimate the cost of the same house, after designing in "energy autonomy", to be $150,000 to $250,000. Now, over your lifetime, will you EVER have to pay a total of $150,000 for energy? No way in hell! Even if your "energy bills" ran $200 per month, you could pay them for 62 years, and be under the extra $150,000. BUT... Most people have a mortgage, and pay interest on their home loan. The way mortgages work, people end up paying them off in either 30 years, or 15 years. Let's be optimistic, and say that you can get a 6% interest rate on the loan (dream on!). 15-yr model 30-yr model Cost of House $100,000 $100,000 Monthly Payment $843.86 $599.56 Number of Months 180 360 Total Payments $151,894.80 $215,841.60 Gee, isn't that nice? It seems that FINANCING the silly roof over your head is not economical. So, if we pay no interest, we can afford the extra cost of investing in stuff that "pays us back" by reducing or eliminating our long-term need to pay bills to the power company, water utility, sewer utility and such. Please recall that such innovations as "public utilities" are strange and new beasties So, how do you do it? In stages of course, since you pay for a much better house, when you pay for it out of your own back pocket as you go. >i myself read that in order to change a country to solar energy system, > meaning the whole infrastucture, you need minmum of 40 years. No one will "change" an entire country, but individuals will change their own houses and lives when they figure out that if one eliminates the concept of earning more money to pay higher bills and more interest, one can be truely free of one's "obligations", and hence, start enjoying "retirement" while they are still young enough to do so. What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 16:10:01 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steven L Combs Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Subject: Dimension & Volume What do you mean, what kid? This whole exercise was set off by the homework assignment of a little girl who needed the "volume of a tetrahedron" for her class. It's all well and good to talk about the inherent fourness of the minimum system tetrahedron. But if I'm going to tell you how to position one in space, I'm going to need a 3-D space to put it in. In the Synergetic Atomic Model there are only two elements: Space and Energy. Space is quantized by geodesic forms defined by energy vector stars. Energy is quantized as the square of the sum of the vectors in a given star. We're working with a handicap here: Fuller was self-contradictory in many ways (use of the word dimension, for example). He also identified a variety of geodesics as "quarks" at one time or another. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am being perceived as "hanging on to" non-synergetic concepts while persuing something I call the Synergetic Atomic Model. I am attempting to glean some of the genius from Fuller's amazing life-work while side-stepping the landmines of his eccentricity: inventing words / multiple definitions of terms / self reference / stream of consciousness writing, etc. These are some of the difficulties in reading Fuller that make him largely inaccessible to the casual reader. It takes a nimble mind, a leap of faith, and the ability to hold conflicting ideas together to navigate Bucky's brilliance. Sincerely, Steven Combs Syncorswim, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:40:51 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Futhey Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume Steven L Combs wrote: > > What do you mean, what kid? This whole exercise was set off by the > homework assignment of a little girl who needed the "volume of a tetrahedron" > for her class. > > It's all well and good to talk about the inherent fourness of the > minimum system tetrahedron. But if I'm going to tell you how to position > one in space, I'm going to need a 3-D space to put it in. > In the Synergetic Atomic Model there are only two elements: > Space and Energy. Space is quantized by geodesic forms defined by energy > vector stars. Energy is quantized as the square of the sum of the > vectors in a given star. > > We're working with a handicap here: Fuller was self-contradictory in > many ways (use of the word dimension, for example). He also identified a > variety of geodesics as "quarks" at one time or another. But let's not > throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am being perceived as "hanging > on to" non-synergetic concepts while persuing something I call the > Synergetic Atomic Model. I am attempting to glean some of the genius > from Fuller's amazing life-work while side-stepping the landmines of his > eccentricity: inventing words / multiple definitions of terms / self > reference / stream of consciousness writing, etc. These are some of the > difficulties in reading Fuller that make him largely inaccessible to the > casual reader. It takes a nimble mind, a leap of faith, and the ability > to hold conflicting ideas together to navigate Bucky's brilliance. > Sincerely, > Steven Combs > Syncorswim, Inc. Steve, This is by far the most balanced comment on Mr. Fuller's brilliance and shortcomings that I have read on this group. Some of his devotees have lionized him to a point of religious fervor, and some of his detractors think he was a nut-case. Your comments are much more accurate a thumbnail synopsis of that which was/is Bucky. John Futhey ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 12:36:53 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume >Steven L Combs wrote: >> It's all well and good to talk about the inherent fourness of the >> minimum system tetrahedron. But if I'm going to tell you how to position >> one in space, I'm going to need a 3-D space to put it in. ... >> I am attempting to glean some of the genius >> from Fuller's amazing life-work while side-stepping the landmines of his >> eccentricity: inventing words / multiple definitions of terms / self >> reference / stream of consciousness writing, etc. fuller, because he was dynamic ('a verb'), was always changing, and thus his work contains some inherent 'contradiction'. fuller himself did not have a complete understanding of synergetics, simply because synergetics is an ongoing process of universe discovery. i have found it most useful to treat anyone's claims of truth as simply claims of the significance of specified contexts. all of fuller's contexts are significant in some sense or other, although they do not all find significance in the same sense - thus the 'contradiction'. certain aspects of synergetics can be used to help see other aspects in a clearer light. one of the most important principles that fuller has clarified for me is the need for *effective demonstration* of a claim - i.e. any context can be *claimed* significant, but an effective demonstration of the context would reveal *just enough* (subjective effectiveness in an individual perspective) significance to justify using it regularly. effective demonstration is nothing more than discovering the usefulness of a word tool or concept. different concepts, however, have different amounts of significance. fuller's emphasis on 4D over 3D is a context that i consider significant primarily to combat some misapprehensions that the cubic framework is somehow a primal essense of universe. unfortunately, this emphasis has bled over into other areas (concepts/contexts are wantonly inclined to overlap one another) where it has less significance, and perhaps even negative significance. this is what steven combs calls 'landmines' above - they aren't *inherent* landmines, of course, but are landmines in the sense that there *is* some negative significance within certain contexts, i.e. when fuller's 4D makes people think that xyz/cartesian/3D is *useless*. i doubt if fuller intended this, but his inclination toward correcting the errors of the past did sometimes lead him toward hyperbole that can interfere with exploration. i think it is important for users of synergetics concepts to continue the *evolution* of synergetics with effective demonstration as an emphasis, which means using synergetics contexts only in ways that are demonstrably significant, but without overfocusing on ways in which these contexts _seem_ to *detract* from the significance of other contexts. 3D is clearly useful, and *can* be considered inherent geometry in this sense: the minimal set of axes of rotation for the tetrahedron are the three edge-to-edge axes. is this not reason enough to completely, effectively demonstrate/justify the usage of 3D? we mustn't feel as though we are 'blaspheming' bucky by using contexts that he has seemed to attack in places - he was simply attacking *particular senses* of these contexts - not the complete, extended, conceptually overlapping totality of any context. *every* context can find significance in *some* sense - we just have to make sure that the significance and the sense are adequate for our individual and collective purposes. -k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 15:46:39 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Frank Davis Subject: Re: On the Concept of Race (from sci.philosophy.meta) In-Reply-To: <30bf40db.129502037@news.teleport.com> from "Kirby Urner" at Dec 1, 95 05:53:42 pm Kirby, what a sad definition of a racist you have. It offends me far more and sseems as likely to be as hateful as a Ku Klux Klans observation. As long as we deny in one form or another what we really see (no matter how poetic, theetie weetie or politically correct the reason) we can not make progress towards getting along. If I try to lie and say that my white Welsh ancestry skin is the same as my Cental African cousins, then all I portray is stupidity, not clor blindness. Do not take this as a flame, just a heartfelt reaction to a philosophy that will not forward relations among people. Celebrate the differences and enjoy them as the very spices of life. 'Nuff said! -- F. Willis Davis UPDATE Magazine!, Editor P.O. Box 17 Mexico, IN 46958 fdavis@holli.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:34:10 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: On Virtualizing Government: A Design Science Approach James McCaig wrote: >At 11:22 PM 11/30/95 GMT, you wrote: >>Distribution: unrestricted >> >> ON VIRTUALIZING GOVERNMENT: A DESIGN SCIENCE APPROACH >> by Kirby Urner >> 11-30-95 >> >Dear Kirby, > >Some interesting and well thought out ideas. Fortunately, our government >'crats are hopelessly behind the curve with computers. This is fortuitous >because the capability that you mention would certainly be used to take more >and more freedom from the populace. It may be better to let them tag along, >years behind the third wave, while we reinvent goverment along more human >and service oriented lines. > > >Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore >United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net Not sure why you think implementing web sites according to the design philosophy I spell out would 'take more and more freedom from the populace' -- the design was about doing just the opposite. Is this a thought out reaction, or knee-jerk anti-governmentalism, or both, or neither? As for being hopelessly behind the curve, keep in mind that this internet we're all using is an outgrowth of the DoDs Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA). And Dr. Vannevar Bush (NSF) was writing about hypertext when computers were still in their vacuum tube phase. As I mention in my essay, we already have lots of government web sites (capability already in use), but they're not designed to create transparency, for the most part. Kirby Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 17:37:34 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Re[2]: maps Joe Moore wrote: >Art Scott writes: > >> Appendix A of my report has a copy of those coordinates. If anyone >> wants them, I'll scan them in and send them. >> If anyone wants a copy of the whole report, I'll consider scanning >> the entire report. Figures will be a problem. I have a WWW page, if >> that is feasible. > Another resource is Robert Gray's website. His algorithm for producing the Dymaxion is original, I believe, not a projection of spherical to icosahedral coordinates ala the gnomonic, but something a little different. He provides a C-language algorithm for producing coordinates. He also has an excellent paper on the subject, which I don't think is available via the internet as yet. His web site may be visited via my http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/dymax.html Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 13:27:10 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Organization: Binghamton University, Binghamton, NY Subject: Re: new addition to "toy" index In-Reply-To: <30be29d9.58065829@news.teleport.com> Yes Kirby, it does have bells and sliders on both the wood and elastic parts. I keep mine on my desk to contemplate. - Marcia On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Kirby Urner wrote: > Marcia Blackburn wrote: > > >I've just picked up a wonderful icosahedron toy at the Museum of Modern > >Art in New York. It's called "The Original Skwish Classic" and is > >manufactured by Pappa Gepetto's Toys Victoria Ltd., Box 98, Victoria, > >B.C. V8W 2M4 CANADA. It's made of multicolored wood parts connected with > >black tension cable. Entrancing! > > > >- Marcia Blackburn > > > >oh, it was $16.00. > > Does it have little bells and sliders on the wood parts? > Sounds like the tensegrity my daughter (18 months) likes to play with. > Sold in Portland as a kid's toy. > > Kirby > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU > Email: pdx4d@teleport.com > Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 19:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James McCaig Subject: Re: On Virtualizing Government: A Design Science Approach At 05:34 PM 12/2/95 GMT, you wrote: > >Not sure why you think implementing web sites according to the design >philosophy I spell out would 'take more and more freedom from the populace' >-- the design was about doing just the opposite. Is this a thought out >reaction, or knee-jerk anti-governmentalism, or both, or neither? > Dear Kirby, One would hope that all reactions to articulate comments like yours are thought out. Whether they are "well thought out" is completely subjective, but it is thought out with my limited capacity. Yes the ARPANET was conceived as a government tool, but that was some time ago and the goverment, much to its chagrine, has lost control of it. There have been several attempts to take it back, but they have thankfully failed. Recently, in frustration, all funding for the net has been suspended, I heard on PBS. If the 'crats who have steadily attacked the bill of rights (especially the 4th amendment) were to have the computer power you desire, there is little likelihood, IMHO, they would use it as you suggest. That is not to say that your suggestion has no merit, rather that it is my opinion that your idealistic use of the tools wouldn't be implemented. As to "knee-jerk anti governmentalism", I'm not too sure what that means. For my own part, the government as it is conceived in the Constitution and the first ten amendments is fine with me, perhaps one of the best on the planet. The way it is run today, though, leaves me somewhat dismayed. One would hope to be able to voice criticism, so long as it is evenly mildly thought out, of the system that has degenerated (IMHO) sharply since Fuller wrote chapter 3 of CRITICAL PATH. It was this very chapter that set my knees to jerking! For the most part, with certain exceptions that make the rule, what the residents of computer stations in the Federal Government are doing is of little interest to me. Generally they are blowing our cash on make-work and it would be cheaper if they stayed home, with full pay, and played solitaire. As a long time resident of the DC area, it has been my pleasure to know many dedicated and highly motivated government employees. On the other hand, anyone who was raised in this city knows plenty about waste and the hunger for power that is rife in these environs. My suggestion is give them all 286's and let them play. Much cheaper and wiser than meddling in the Balkans with high tech toys. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:47:32 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Kirby on Earth (sort of) dave suwala wrote: >> the environment that we all live within spirals down to a low gravy >> anyway. I always wonder whether our efforts in space will be >> rewarded by a breakout from this injured earth. But I guess that >> men will be as damaging to the galaxy and universe as they have been >> to Bangladesh, NYC, our fishing grounds, etc. I wonder whether we >> will use up all of the convenient chemical fuel before we develop >> systems (Biosphere 2, for example) capable of enabling us to survive >> in space or on the planets and grab and use more stuff exponentially >> and synergetically. and Kirby commented: >World Game data indicated, up to at least a few years ago, we had the >ingredients for planetary success on a sustainable basis. Probably still >do. I can't speak for all, but I myself am very, very, very, very 100% sure that we are nowhere near "the point of no return", at least for the human race. Other species may not fare so well, since many have died out due to the urban sprawl. >Throwing up one's hands and turning towards space is defeatism in my >view. This biosphere/spaceship is as good as any within a huge number of >light years, most likely. Silly to give up on it. More accurate to say that this biosphere is the ONLY one within range of the current crop of space probes. While it is possible to extrapolate the number of planets around a star and their rough distances from the star from some very fancy readings, finding a "habitable" planet is a real long shot, and would require a probe similar to the Voyager. We have yet to send anything to another solar system, and have data come back that tells us anything. I did a poster design for an envronmental group. It showed various planets from our local solar system, including Saturn with it's famous rings, rampant on a pseudo-Milky Way background. The text was simple: "OK, Don't Recycle - We Can Always Move..." As for Dave's hopeful comments on Biosphere II, I can only laugh. Biosphere II was a sham. It was a disgrace, and a fraud. The new management may do some good work, but the "grand scheme" was a joke from the get-go. A triumph of public relations over facts. We are making headway in small matters, to the point where people see that we can reclaim the screw-ups of the last century or so. Now that prices for "post-consumer" aluminum are decent, I defy any of you to find enough empty cans lying about to buy lunch at the cheapest place in your town. In one full day of looking, I saw one or two cans by the side of the road. In the 70s, there were enough around that they were an eyesore. The "Everything Must Go", blowout sale of fossil fuels still goes on. Even the USA power companies no longer think that Fission nuclear plants are a good idea, since the last 3 or 4 have bankrupted the builders. Sustainable approaches DO exist, but they cannot compete well with the current cutthroat pricing and subsidies for dirty fuel sources. What to do? Set an example, and WALK. Ride a bike. Start a compost pile. Plant some veggies and eat them when they grow. For example: The small town I leave near had its annual Christmas parade today. Over 100 floats, old cars, fire engines, horse-drawn wagons, antique tractors and such. A fire alarm was broadcast over the radios of the various emergency vehicles in the parade. 1) The majority of the volunteer fire-fighters were in the parade. So was the majority of the fire-fighting equipment. (Ooops, next year someone will think more clearly, I am sure.) 2) The police halted the parade, and everyone pulled to the sides of the roads to make way for the fire-fighters. (Watch that marching band scramble for cover when being overtaken by 12 Tons of screaming fire truck!) 3) Guess who made it to the house in question first? The firemen on horseback! One group even ejected the non-fire fighting passengers from a restored heavy farm wagon dating back to the 1800s, and gave their horses a good workout. 4) The actual fire trucks came in second! Despite belching desiel fumes, blaring sirens, and shiny chrome, they were beaten by a sustainable, renewable form of transport! The fire? Minor kitchen blaze. No one hurt. Q: "What did you make for dinner tonight, Honey?" A: "Reservations at the Peaks Of Otter Lodge." What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 21:47:49 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Race - ...OK, time to weigh in on this one... F. Willis Davis commented: >Kirby, what a sad definition of a racist you have. It offends me far more and >seems as likely to be as hateful as a Ku Klux Klans observation. This is not even acceptable debating style. The KKK is alive and well in places like NC/SC, and while laughable, they are a danger to anyone with a stake in law, order, and peace. Invoking their image against Kirby is in very poor taste. Invoking their image against anyone is at least "poor form". >As long as we deny in one form or another what we really see >(no matter how poetic, theetie weetie or politically correct >the reason) we can not make progress towards getting along. Wrong. We CAN deny that the type of pigment in our skin has any impact on any other aspect of a person's being, and pray that "society" will not prove us wrong. I have a very large number of freckles, should I therefore be an associate member of the NAACP? Just a few more freckles in the right places, and I would qualify for a full membership! >If I try to lie and say that my white Welsh ancestry skin is the >same as my Cental African cousins, ...which it IS, except for minor pigmentation variance! If burned in a fire, a black person's skin could be used (in a pinch) to literaly save your rear end!!! Your body would not care a bit. Tissue typing ignores details like black/white. Ditto for organ transplants. 100% of all your replaceable parts are interchangeable with a significant percentage of the members of ANY race you wish to name!!! >then all I portray is stupidity, not color blindness. I think the above line stands on its own merits... >Do not take this as a flame, just a heartfelt reaction to a >philosophy that will not forward relations among people. Kirby's "philosophy" appears to me to be a better shot at making for better relations than your comments. If your comments are "heartfelt", then this is a strange and hitherto unknown use of the term, to which I am not accustomed. >Celebrate the differences and enjoy them as the very spices of life. Celebrate yes, but how can one celebrate when darker skinned people are STILL given a hard time by lighter skinned ones? Ask an American Indian. Ask an Indian Indian. Ask a Black. Ask a Hispanic. Ask them what they have to "celebrate" about their skin tone, given that it brings them grief from whites on a regular basis. >'Nuff said! -- When enough is said, then people will describe my friend Ron as "The tall guy" (he is 6' 4"). They never do. He is "the black guy" (when in fact, he is light brown). They will also call me "The short guy" (I am 5' 8"). They don't. I am, of course, "the white guy" (when in fact, I am DARKER brown than Ron in some spots, and lighter in others...) Christ (who was more likely dark-skinned than white) tried to get people to be nice and get along. He was nailed to a tree for his trouble. How long before we get the message? Go ahead and flame me... my new firewall has yet to be "tested" by anyone who was any good at all. What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 20:03:26 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BFVI AT ECOMALL The EcoMall has one of the more recent versions of the Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute with lots of links. See: http://www.ecomall.com/ecomall/activism/bucky2.htm Check it out. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:26:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: ECOMALL? >The EcoMall... >http://www.ecomall.com/ecomall/activism/bucky2.htm >Check it out. Why does this sound kinda like a contradiction in terms - an Eco-Mall? Aren't "malls" one of the things that are mauling the ecology of a number of areas? Perhaps it is just me.... What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:25:04 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Frank Davis Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Race - In-Reply-To: <199512030251.VAA05591@crucible.inmind.com> from "James Fischer" at Dec 2, 95 09:47:49 pm Who really cares as to whether you have a new firewall, or what is good debating skill. I still find your attitude to be racist and hateful. That is not flaming. -- F. Willis Davis UPDATE Magazine!, Editor P.O. Box 17 Mexico, IN 46958 fdavis@holli.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 23:44:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Race - F. Willis Davis retorted: >Who really cares as to whether you have a new firewall, or what is good >debating skill. I still find your attitude to be racist and hateful. That is >not flaming. -- I have never seen a word on this mailing list that is racist or hateful, and I doubt that the general opinion of the group would contradict me. As a matter of fact, the first time I EVER saw anyone call someone anything close to a racist was when you said: "Kirby, what a sad definition of a racist you have. It offends me far more and seems as likely to be as hateful as a Ku Klux Klans observation." Now you seem to have the opinion (above) that my "attitude" is racist (and HATEFUL!), which is pretty much the same thing as the less overt reference directed at Kirby. Pretty presumptious on both counts. Better that this discussion be in via private e-mail, if you must continue it. What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 02:01:21 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume syncswim@world.std.com (Steven L Combs) wrote: > What do you mean, what kid? This whole exercise was set off by the >homework assignment of a little girl who needed the "volume of a tetrahedron" >for her class. Oh... I thought we were trying to help Tagdi teach his class. Pretty enterprising of her to post to GEODESIC. What is her name? > It's all well and good to talk about the inherent fourness of the >minimum system tetrahedron. But if I'm going to tell you how to position >one in space, I'm going to need a 3-D space to put it in. If you mean you'll use xyz coordinates it's up to you whether you call that '3D space'. Fuller didn't. The number of parameters it takes to specify something need not be identified with its 'dimension' as Cantor showed. The concept of dimension preceded the invention of Cartesian coordinates. > In the Synergetic Atomic Model there are only two elements: >Space and Energy. Space is quantized by geodesic forms defined by energy >vector stars. Energy is quantized as the square of the sum of the >vectors in a given star. This is your model I presume. > We're working with a handicap here: Fuller was self-contradictory in >many ways (use of the word dimension, for example). He also identified a >variety of geodesics as "quarks" at one time or another. But let's not >throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am being perceived as "hanging >on to" non-synergetic concepts while persuing something I call the >Synergetic Atomic Model. I am attempting to glean some of the genius >from Fuller's amazing life-work while side-stepping the landmines of his >eccentricity: inventing words / multiple definitions of terms / self >reference / stream of consciousness writing, etc. These are some of the >difficulties in reading Fuller that make him largely inaccessible to the >casual reader. It takes a nimble mind, a leap of faith, and the ability >to hold conflicting ideas together to navigate Bucky's brilliance. I do not wish to interfere with your project. My self-defined role, on the other hand, is to give as much clarity to Fuller's definitions and concepts as I am able. If I am able to attach meaning and consistency beyond where you have decided to draw the line, that's maybe useful to some readers, irrelevant to others. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 02:57:13 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steven L Combs Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Subject: Dimension & Volume Kirby's point is well taken. It is his role here to define synergetics within its own context - Bucky as Bucky saw himself. Lest there be confusion, what I refer to as the Synergetic Atomic Model is my own version of applied synergetics, therefore I take liberties in applying synergetics how I see fit. For example, I change Fuller's modification of Einstein's E=mc^2 from Bucky's E=2V^2 into E= (Sum V)^2 . As one reader points out, it is in applying synergetics in useful special case scenarios that we achieve our purpose. Kirby's intellectual integrity in keeping the list grounded in Synergetics (with a capital S) is a useful reminder of our common roots as we explore synergetic applications. I must plead ignorance as to the identity of the original questioner in the matter of the volume of a tetrahedron. I recall that it was the father of a schoolgirl with a homework assignment. But I didn't save his email address. Sincerely, Steven Combs Syncorswim, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 03:20:30 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steven L Combs Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Subject: Time At the risk of being branded a complete loon, I would like to explore the subject of time. Fuller took note of something that I don't think I've ever seen discussed anywhere else - Einstein's work as a patent clerk exposing him to many varieties of timepieces and Einstein's subsequent view of time - "I then concluded that a man who had Einstein's kind of philosophy and Einstein's kind of patent-examiner-of-timekeepers experiences would naturally think a great deal about relativity of nonsimultaneously and always differently viewed time experiences." RBF - "Cosmography" page 77 The slant I would like to put on this is that there really is no evidence for the existance of "time". You can't bottle it, as the song says. Measurement of it is relative, imprecise, and based on measurement of other quantities. The simplest way to demonstrate my view is to suggest the thought of time travel. If you were to awake in an unknown time, how would you determine when you were? There is only one way - examine where you are. That is, the nature of the space and energy around you would determine what time you would conclude it was. Sincerely, Steven Combs Syncorswim, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:49:49 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Race - In Message Sat, 02 Dec 1995 23:25:04 -0500, Frank Davis writes: >Who really cares as to whether you have a new firewall, or what is good >debating skill. I still find your attitude to be racist and hateful. That is >not flaming. -- > >F. Willis Davis this newsgroup is about how to make the world work, if you like Danish coluor or sweedish budockes is not important to this group. you are free to like what you like. wasting time on somthing messy as the race issue in ordor to justify tasty group feeling is just a way to keep others with your precoupation and what is great about Wales anyway( the feeling of warmth, the friendship, the landscpe ) well to someone else it is just myth that creates make belive feeling. I belive in the indivisual, groups based on scratch my back syndrom. this is not flaming, oh how i like this sentence. they use to sell black for 80 dollars, what do you say to that or you do not have a hearthfelt feeling. i suggest leave this issue alone try to raise the standard of living you might have a better combination. last sentence: we know what racism when we see it. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:04:25 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume In Message Sat, 02 Dec 1995 11:40:51 -0800, Steve >> It's all well and good to talk about the inherent fourness of the >> minimum system tetrahedron. But if I'm going to tell you how to position >> one in space, I'm going to need a 3-D space to put it in. are you sure that 3D exist, if you tell a child that diminsion starts wtih 4 direction i think he will grow out with the idea and will find 3D to be strange proposition. many of our ideas in culture go back to two or three thousand years ago, so what seems to be contemprory is really long time ago thing. >> In the Synergetic Atomic Model there are only two elements: >> Space and Energy. Space is quantized by geodesic forms defined by energy >> vector stars. Energy is quantized as the square of the sum of the >> vectors in a given star. >> >> We're working with a handicap here: Fuller was self-contradictory in >> many ways (use of the word dimension, for example). He also identified a >> variety of geodesics as "quarks" at one time or another. But let's not >> throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am being perceived as "hanging >> on to" non-synergetic concepts while persuing something I call the >> Synergetic Atomic Model. I am attempting to glean some of the genius >> from Fuller's amazing life-work while side-stepping the landmines of his >> eccentricity: inventing words / multiple definitions of terms / self >> reference / stream of consciousness writing, etc. These are some of the >> difficulties in reading Fuller that make him largely inaccessible to the >> casual reader. It takes a nimble mind, a leap of faith, and the ability >> to hold conflicting ideas together to navigate Bucky's brilliance. can you explain more since some of us do not know much physics. >Steve, > >This is by far the most balanced comment on Mr. Fuller's brilliance and >shortcomings that I have read on this group. Some of his devotees have >lionized him to a point of religious fervor, and some of his detractors >think he was a nut-case. Your comments are much more accurate a >thumbnail synopsis of that which was/is Bucky. > >John Futhey i think you are bit insulting. are you a devotee or detractors or both. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:57:56 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Fw: Re: WEALTH AS ENERGY HOW TO BECOM A MILLIONIARE In Message Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:53:24 -0500 (EST), "Robert C. Reining" writes: > Has any one done a economic cost-benefit analysis of this hybrid > diesel electric system? hello Robert any information on engins including diesel will be appriciated. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 17:25:11 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Bucky Triangles >>>"Circle" approach, or to continue with his triangular approach. >> >>I have done some preparation before tuning into this echo. As I >>recall the circle approach is considered to construct a spiral. >> >>>Yeah, it'd be cool to link the crab thing to Fuller's concept of >>>'precession'. Nature gets the job done precessionally, often at >>>90 degrees to what humans consciously understand. He felt our >>>being graduated to Class I evolution would be a manifestation of >>>our coming to understand 'the way of the crab' (tao?). >> >>This direction perhaps is along the w axis linked to the 4th dimension. >>And I do think this has to do with the 'chi' of the Tao. I have been >>thinking about chi and synchronicity/synergy. Read a short description >>of topoi which appear to place less emphasis on points which are oldstyle. >>The suggestion is a new view of self-reference not defined by points as >>fixed but occupying a domain-more flexibility to allow forbidden symmetry. >>My cautious opinion, is that Bucky did this with crystals and polymers. >> >>Good Day, >>Stephen > > anyone know how to do more learning with less, and how to creat > low pressure in life situation. >Good week Stephen >Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 17:26:58 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Ethanol vs methane >Dave >> The discussion of fuels is particularly interesting. Rather >> Malthusian but inevitable. As we proliferate the automobile (the >> world has discovered the wonders of automobility through our >> satellite transmissions of our American lifestyle) the engineers >> will have to begin to use sources of energy as yet untapped. You >> have been discussing fuels based on corn (ethanol) and animal waste >> (methane). >Tagdi > > what is going on with oil companies, any nice information. > > >> How about the more direct utilization of solar power? The amorphous >> silicon solar cell has increased in efficiency so that in a few >> years we may be roofing our houses with them. The energy, currently >> > can you add little more about the improvment of solar cell and > it is future use. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 17:40:36 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Race - The city of Tokyo considering seriously building island cities, they have planned to build an island airport. the models they have for city island is structuraly is not stable. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:03:01 -0500 Reply-To: Traderjc Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Traderjc Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Publisher of Dome Books 1&2 and Geodesic Math The following books recommended in this group sound interesting to some applications I am developing but I cannot find the publisher contact info: Dome Book 1 Dome Book 2 Geodesic Math They are not in my Books in Print reference by title. Can someone please e-mail or post the publisher contact information? Will be much appreciated. Jim Campbell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 07:37:35 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Solar economics James Fischer wrote: > Tagdi said: >> I want to bring Nick Pine into this. He told me that solar >> energy is not economical these days, > Well, that seems strange, given that Nick seems to know > all the basic math required to make solar-driven systems work. He thinks he does :-) He finds it easy math, compared to geodesic geometry. Mostly just arithmetic, with an occasional push on the e-to-the-x button of his calculator... Would that more geodesic geometers discover this easy math. He'd be happy to help, in exchange for some geodesic math tutoring... > One would hope that he could do some math with dollar signs in front, He does that a lot. Lately he is impressed by labor rates for house builders, who seem to charge almost as much as lawyers these days. I guess we need more tooling and prefabrication, if not do-it-your-selfery. > and figure out how to justify the investment required to implement a design. I'm not sure what that means, exactly. _I_ think some solar heating investments are quite well justified, and my house is already mostly solar heated, but where are the rest of the people who want to build things? That's another step. As I already said, one way to make solar heating economics look nicer is to combine it with something else, eg walls. In _How Buildings Learn_, Stewart Brand says: The 80-story Amoco building (1974) in Chicago was originally faced with 1 1/4-inch-thick panels of prime Carrara marble, which soon dished and distorted because it was cut too thin. Replacing the 43,000 panels with 2-inch thick granite is taking three years and $80 million. I suppose photovoltaic walls are cheaper than marble facades: Article: 43011 of sci.energy From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) Subject: AC PV panels Date: 3 Dec 1995 06:22:24 -0500 Organization: Villanova University Tom Gray wrote: >Nick Pine writes: >>Solar panels with built-in inverters that plug into wall sockets >>to lower electric bills should be coming quite soon. MrSolar@netins.net (Charlie Collins) kindly forwarded the following from http://www.ultranet.com/~sda, paraphrased below with a few comments... Solar Design Associates is now developing an AC solar module with Solarex, owned by Amoco. The AC module is a DC module with a small integrated inverter. Solarex calls the product "PowerWall." The first modules are designed for curtain walls, the shear wall systems used on modern office buildings. These modules replace the glass or other sheet material used in curtain walls, eg in framing manufactured by Kawneer of Norcross, Georgia. A residential roof product is also in the works. PowerWall modules are available in AC and DC models, in sizes up to 53" X 87", [32 ft^2--why not 4' x 8'?] with outputs up to 250 watts. An ideal solar system should harvest both heat and electricity from the same aperture [although PV power falls off as temperature rises...] Virtually every building has thermal as well as electrical energy needs, and roof area is limited... In 1979, SDA developed a combined, flat-plate, PV/thermal collector. The device worked well. Unfortunately, no company was willing to produce it. Now they are revisiting this device... [I wonder if it still has a thermal output?] In 1980, existing PV modules (~ 4 ft^2) were not large enough to integrate well with building systems. Too many connections were needed to make a significant electrical output. SDA presented the case to all major PV makers for building a large-area module of 25 to 30 square feet, which could be integrated into a building skin to form the structure and weathering surface. Every manufacturer thought they were crazy - except one. SDA began working with Mobil to develop a 24 ft^2, glass-superstrate PV module which could be sold with or without a frame. Now the rest of the industry is following suit. Custom module manufacturers in Europe now offer PV modules of 3 square meters and larger, designing them to architect's specifications for direct building integration. DC outputs of PV arrays impose serious limits on the electrical use. Most electrical loads require AC power, and 30-40% of the cost of a PV system has been used in the transition from the DC PV module to the load. Such systems were complex and required special DC-rated components not readily available. The obvious answer was to create an AC PV module. SDA is now doing that now. --- > My model is simple - let's say the house of your dreams would cost > $100,000 US. OK... > Let's be really depressing, and estimate the cost of the same house, > after designing in "energy autonomy", to be $150,000 to $250,000. Houses need siding and roofs, right? Suppose we use thin polycarbonate plastic in place of siding and roof, with an airspace underneath, to collect some sun. No sheathing, no tarpaper, no shingles. Less labor, since these plastic sheets come in very large pieces and rolls... So to my mind, a solar heated house can be LESS expensive to construct than a conventional house. I wouldn't make the roof out of PV panels, yet... But let's say you did, and it cost another $50-150K... > Now, over your lifetime, will you EVER have to pay a total of $150,000 > for energy? No way in hell! Even if your "energy bills" ran $200 per > month, you could pay them for 62 years, and be under the extra $150,000. Yes, although that is future money, and some economists argue that energy costs rise faster than inflation. > BUT... Yes? > Most people have a mortgage, and pay interest on their home loan. > The way mortgages work, people end up paying them off in either > 30 years, or 15 years. Let's be optimistic, and say that you can > get a 6% interest rate on the loan... > > 15-yr model 30-yr model > > Cost of House $100,000 $100,000 > Monthly Payment $843.86 $599.56 > Number of Months 180 360 > Total Payments $151,894.80 $215,841.60 > > Gee, isn't that nice? It seems that FINANCING the silly > roof over your head is not economical. In what sense, exactly? It seems to me that deciding to buy a house is different from deciding to invest in a stock or put money in a savings account. People live in houses. It's hard to live in a bank account, no matter how much interest the bank pays. Mortgage "payback" is not the same as investment "payback." When I talk about solar economics, I'm thinking that most people are making decisions about where to invest money, or whether to borrow money to do something that has a monetary return. I suppose that most people would rather put money in a bank, rather than buy a solar system, if the bank deposit pays equally well, and has a lower risk and takes less time to manage. > So, if we pay no interest... I'm not quite following you here. I thought you were talking about 6%. If you put up the cash out of your pocket up front (is that what you are talking about?), you forgo the opportunity of putting it in the bank and earning some interest. > we can afford the extra cost of investing in stuff that "pays us back" > by reducing or eliminating our long-term need to pay bills to the power > company, water utility, sewer utility and such. My original point with Tagdi was that if a "solar heater" allows you to avoid paying the oil dealer for 1 gallon of oil per square foot of "heater" per year, about 60 cents, where I live, the "solar heater" has to be very inexpensive to build, OR it has to serve more than one purpose, to make this kind of narrow economic sense to the owner. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:30:36 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume >> We're working with a handicap here: Fuller was self-contradictory in >> many ways (use of the word dimension, for example). He also identified a >> variety of geodesics as "quarks" at one time or another. But let's not >> throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am being perceived as "hanging >> on to" non-synergetic concepts while persuing something I call the >> Synergetic Atomic Model. I am attempting to glean some of the genius >> from Fuller's amazing life-work while side-stepping the landmines of his >> eccentricity: inventing words / multiple definitions of terms / self >> reference / stream of consciousness writing, etc... >> >> Sincerely, >> Steven Combs >> Syncorswim, Inc. > >Steve, > >This is by far the most balanced comment on Mr. Fuller's brilliance and >shortcomings that I have read on this group. Some of his devotees have >lionized him to a point of religious fervor, and some of his detractors >think he was a nut-case. Your comments are much more accurate a >thumbnail synopsis of that which was/is Bucky. > >John Futhey A few points: On the consistency issue: as evidenced by my earlier post giving multiple uses of the word 'dimension' over time, Fuller did not always use the word in the same way. We can take this as contradictory, or evolutionary. Note I was mostly quoting from the Synergetics Dictionary, not Synergetics itself. The latter Fuller held off on publishing until he was in his 70s and these contradictions are less evident in the 'final' work, though inconsistencies remain. The subtitle is, after all, "explorations in the geometry of thinking" -- exploration implies lots of tentative forays into what appears tantalizingly relevant, without ever getting to see a final map of the terrain. Keep in mind also that the word 'dimension' has multiple, inconsistent usages quite outside of Fuller's writings (something I take up in my paper, cited above, further quoted below). It is one of those troublesome terms that has had a way of overloading. Towards the end of Synergetics, Fuller himself indicates he has doubts about its lasting relevance. We might someday find ourselves dispensing with the term 'dimension' in Synergetics almost completely. Fuller himself talked about how a process of refining one's definitions over time can be one of settling into patterns which change less frequently as their internal inconsistencies are worked out and the generalized principles worked in -- but all recordings of insight are subject to decay over time. What I find especially interesting in Synergetics is that Fuller set for himself the task of crafting a language which speaks geometry directly to its users in a narrative style, as opposed to using the symbolic notations more commonly identified as "mathematics", and which do not have a prose syntax. He was attempting to inspire visualization and comprehension directly, not through the mediation of computer algorithms or computation. This is, I think, I leading barrier to peoples' appreciation for his work: no one, to my knowledge, has tried so hard to create a precise, yet metaphoric, humanities-style language, yet so invested in stark mathematical/geometric concepts. So it doesn't fit the pigeon-hole of math/science, nor a subject in the humanities; Fuller tried to bridge the two through invention in language, a narrative style of 'operational mathematics' which is at once about the physical and metaphysical dimensions of experience. The result is outside any existing academic department, and therefore not a part of the curriculum in any of them. Synergetics is too 'mushy' for the math-heads, too 'cold and austere' for the humanities crowd. Quoting from my paper on Dimension again: [Synergetics as Language Some might assert that a language which permits perpetual redefinition of its key terms is thereby precluded from attaining a high degree of precision, at least with regard to matters scientific. In the western experience, the rationalist rebellion against the tyranny of theology has left a rift between symbolic notations, the province of rationalists, and the more narratively-based stream of consciousness, the province of storytellers, wherein science and mathematics may be diluted for popular consumption, but not securely based or instantiated. Synergetics reawakens old suspicions among rationalists because it proposes to anchor itself in this broader ocean of discourse, rather than in some symbolic notation. Consequently, to the conventional mathematician, synergetics may appear downright unhygenic -- why should pristine geometric ideas be encumbered with so much verbiage? A liberal arts student, on the other hand, may feel put off by all the geometry -- where is the humanity in this language, so stark, cold and austere? In short, readers on either side of the rift feel uncomfortable with synergetics, which suggests that Fuller may indeed have created something of a bridge between C.P. Snow's two cultures. But the fact of the matter is that even rationalist notations are not immune from the kinds of revaluation effects which characterize the rest of language. Even a casual examination of the historical record shows that supposedly rigorous definitions of key concepts in mathematics are subject to review and modification -- which brings us to the mathematical concept of "dimension" in the 1920s.] I realize that to some ears the above may sound like the justifications of an unredeemed apologist who thinks Fuller could make no errors. In actual fact, there is much in Synergetics I do not understand and have no ability to make sense of. But I do think more of a case can be made for his approach, style and language than Steve's comments indicate. I also think that Steve's view is closer to the 'mainstream' (as much as *any* thinking about Bucky's writings can be called 'mainstream') than is mine, and that 'hard core synergetics' will likely remain a marginal subject of study for the vast majority who already have strong math/science backgrounds. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:56:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: On Virtualizing Government: A Design Science Approach James McCaig wrote: >Dear Kirby, > >One would hope that all reactions to articulate comments like yours are >thought out. Whether they are "well thought out" is completely subjective, >but it is thought out with my limited capacity. > I understand you better now. You weren't criticizing the proposed design so much as doubting that the USA government, as presently instantiated, has the means or integrity to implement these designs. Yes, that seems well thought out to me. Personally, I'm not into blaming politicians as much as is common practice though (I've lived in DC too BTW). The political class is a scapegoat class in some degree. They're expected to promise this and that, get into office, fall back into 'real world' patterns, get blamed, and the public gets cynical. All such a predictable cycle. My view is that politics is too ill-informed and too much a money-game to ever dig us out of the hole we're in. Why should we expect high caliber design science to flow easily from highly trained *lawyers* of all people. On the other hand, we have this huge network of academic institutions playing gatekeeper to all kinds of important jobs, at the same time playing 'innocent bystander' to the scapegoats, sniping at legislators without questioning whether the curriculum itself should be more the focus of our design science approach towards providing sustainable high living standards for all humans and fellow travelers aboard Spaceship Earth. The metaphor I propose is to take 'learning a living' seriously: we're all students for life. The City is then a Campus -- the whole city, not just the formally identified 'campus' part (if the city even has a campus). I look out across the cities of Calcutta and Cairo and think "global university -- all those impoverished students!" I think of the global food distribution system and think "Food Services." How well are we serving our global university students? Are we giving them access to work-study opportunities and access to inventory assets via exponentially expanding distance-education circuits? No? Well, don't blame the politicians -- they are products of the global university, but not its designers, victims of overspecialization, not its architects. It's the curriculum which teaches students to invest their hopes in the scapegoat politicians and tells them they live in a democracy because they have the right to vote now and then, or throw money at this or that cause. But instead, the curriculum could be telling students of goverment about the opportunity to virtualize governmental offices in cyberspace, giving the public quick access to world game data via the many viewscopes which government, by design, is supposed to have at its fingertips, and could share with serious students everywhere. If government is, in reality, technologically impoverished, incompetent, a liability, maybe we should look back at its sponsors, the Grunch of Giants, and ask why? And maybe we should look at our academic curricula for the programming bugs, rather than in the broken-down political system. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:01:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: BFVI AT ECOMALL Joe Moore wrote: >The EcoMall has one of the more recent versions of the Bucky Fuller Virtual >Institute with lots of links. See: > >http://www.ecomall.com/ecomall/activism/bucky2.htm > >Check it out. > Does this mean http://metro.turnpike.net/G/GoatBoy/bfvi.html is not being kept as current? Keeping multiple versions of essentially the same page floating around, some more up-to-date than others, is confusing to would-be linkers. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 23:14:20 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Solar economics >> Gee, isn't that nice? It seems that FINANCING the silly >> roof over your head is not economical. > >In what sense, exactly? It seems to me that deciding to buy a house is >different from deciding to invest in a stock or put money in a savings >account. Since you can do either, one MUST compare one against the other. >People live in houses. It's hard to live in a bank account, True, but I can rent a house, and avoid having to invest money in a house, thus freeing my capital for (more) investment. If my investments do well, then my money is "better" invested than it would be if invested in a house since: A) Many investments are more liquid than a house, which can be much harder to sell than, say, a pile of Canadian Hydro Bonds (even prior to maturity). B) The money will support me in my "old age". C) Existing construction is nearly 100% dependent upon a constant stream of both resources and cash, thus making the investment in the house only the first outlay I must make. D) The illusion of houses "gaining" value is nothing but inflation. Since all houses require upkeep, in constant dollars, one looses money on a normal 20th century house. >no matter how much interest the bank pays. Mortgage "payback" is not >the same as investment "payback." A mortgage does not "pay back" anyone except the lender! Mortgages are counter-prouductive to the entire concept of building a self-sufficient house, since the mortgage itself forces the owner of the house to keep working in the 9-to-5, no-way-out, no-way-to-win "game" of a day job! Why bother to buy/build a house that feeds you, keeps you warm and dry, and has no major long-term costs, if you are stuck working yourself to death to PAY for the darn thing for the best years of your life? I lived in a nearly empty shell for 2 months, just to make sure that I could "live with" the tape marks on the floor indicating interior walls. As it turned out, some of the interior walls that seemed like a great idea in a CAD system and in a carboard model were LOUSY ideas in my "dry run". The walls never got built. I saved money, trouble, and time. Why did I live in an empty shell? I was out of cash!!! The 2 months were needed to save up money to finish off the interior!!! >When I talk about solar economics, I'm thinking that most people are making >decisions about where to invest money, or whether to borrow money to do >something that has a monetary return. We should invest in items that "pay back" through reducing or eliminating long-term expenses. But borrowing money to do this simply makes "alternative" technologies that much more difficult to afford. Expecting the investment to pay back in a cash income is impossible for most, and a non-goal. Most folks will never save up enough to go out and build/buy a house in cold blood with cold hard cash. Therefore, while Bucky wanted to make a house a mass-produced consumer product, I submit that we must return to the traditional way of housing - building the things with our own two hands, or at least with our PRESENT resources, and the help of a few skilled pros. This means that we must spend and build in "phases". The whole idea of mortgaging one's future is a recent one, and I feel a bad one. If I get a mortgage, I am under pressure to keep earning money for a long period of time. Better to save money, quit your job, build a house that is sustainable, and then become a "semi-retired" person by choice! >I suppose that most people would rather put money in a bank, rather >than buy a solar system, if the bank deposit pays equally well, and >has a lower risk and takes less time to manage. Fools. Can they spell "Savings and Loan defaults"? With the "spread" between savings account interest rates and consumer loan rates at an all-time high, we should all be "going long" in things that are sure to increase in price, like canned goods! I suggest an extreme long view, and propose that our kids and grandkids will take the "profits" of our efforts and "investments". Once they mature to the point where owning the latest and greatest stereo system seems pointless, the facilities we build now will still be there, ready to allow them to live free, tend the gardens, and have minimal "obligations". Consider it your legacy, and build accordingly. >> So, if we pay no interest... >I'm not quite following you here. I thought you were talking about 6%. If you >put up the cash out of your pocket up front (is that what you are talking >about?), you forgo the opportunity of putting it in the bank and earning some >interest. You put the cash in out of your pocket IN SMALL AMOUNTS. You build in phases. You gotta eat peanut butter and live like a college student for a few years, but it is worth it. Anyone can save more money than a bank will loan them! The alternative is that the money gets spent on things that do not matter as much as an early retirement!! My little trick is to make a "more expensive" house less expensive by paying for only the tangible land and house itself. The guy who does the LEAST is the guy who takes small green pieces of paper from others, and "lends" them to you. Why does he make more than the guy who digs the foundation? Cut him out of the deal!!! >> we can afford the extra cost of investing in stuff that "pays us back" >> by reducing or eliminating our long-term need to pay bills to the power >> company, water utility, sewer utility and such. >My original point with Tagdi was that if a "solar heater" allows you to avoid >paying the oil dealer for 1 gallon of oil per square foot of "heater" per year, >about 60 cents, where I live, the "solar heater" has to be very inexpensive to >build, OR it has to serve more than one purpose, to make this kind of narrow >economic sense to the owner. I knew it had to be a very qualified case. But your model above is a worst-case example. I think we can do better. If one takes a more agressive approach, one can implement the semi-passive solar (or micro-hydro, or whatever) and thereby avoid buying an oil burner at all. The trick here is that the avoided cost of fuel is not the only factor. One can also avoid buying the oil burner, fixing the oil burner, and financing the darn thing! Is the life-cycle cost small hydro plant more than the life-cycle cost of a mortgated oil furnace, fueled by oil at God knows what per gallon? Dunno. Don't care! I do not have oil, and I do have water! Yes, this IS a very "facist" approach. If I lived further north than I do, I would be branded a fool. I can burn some wood a few days a year if I must, and be happy that I can be home to tend the woodstove and chop wood! Trees will grow forever on my woodlot. Oil? Not on my land! Once the house is built, if nothing comes in on trucks, and nothing goes out on trucks, then you have both lowered your short-term costs, and built something that has lasting value. I hope that your structure will last for at least 200 years, and that means that "oil" is an item that must be designed out! Bucky lived in the days of promises of power "too cheap to meter". "Ready Killowatt" (a cartoon character created by the electric utilities) reined supreme. When was the last time anyone heard the phrase "Total Electric Living"? They were SERIOUS!!! "Ready Killowatt" is dead! Power will never be "Too Cheap To Meter", and "Total Electric Living" means death when power gets scarce or too expensive. Design for the requirements. They are getting harsher all the time. What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 04:53:11 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chip Winborne Organization: Sedona Internet Services, Inc. Subject: To: modelbuilders This afternoon I build a one-thoousand-strut spaceframe: Cheap. Buy a few boxes of cheap cotton swabs. (Q-Tips are too fluffy, and the cheap swabs often have plastic struts). 2-3 bucks for 500. Purchase a can of WELDWOOD contact cement (VENT your workspace!) Get a masons's level, or something of similar shape. Dip 10-or-so swabs, each end, in the cement. Let the stuff dry 'til not tacky. Assemble. Rapidly, if you wish. The mason's level provides a right-sized drying rack. Don't worry about not being able to get the sticks apart. The glue soaks into the swab, and the adhesion is, pleasantly, not great until pressure is applied. The bond is great, and the combination of the cotton fibers and the rubbery cement makes for a nice flexible bond, while retaining adhesion. Works for me! (Warning - STICK WITH ONE BRAND OF SWAB! 1/16th inch size differnces accumulate!) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 02:50:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Christopher Belcher Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume OK, let me dive in... though science has never been my best subject. Steve wrote: > > It's all well and good to talk about the inherent fourness of the >minimum system tetrahedron. But if I'm going to tell you how to position >one in space, I'm going to need a 3-D space to put it in. Actually, no, I don't think so. I saw a Hollywood movie where this kid was sending out a pirate radio broadcast, and the Feds were able to find him through a process of "triangulation", where three trucks drove around pointing their antenas towards the source of the signal and the intersection of the three "transmission vectors" if you will, gave them the location. Of course this worked because they could assume that the transmission was originating on the surface of the Earth and not from some alienated adolescent extra-terrestial in his anti-gravity ship (or from dwarves deep in their mines, evidence of the inside-outing of tetrahedral events...). But if you were to put the example in space, away from a planetary surface, wouldn't you need to have a fourth antena to get a fix? If we assume the source of the transmission to be the "event" in Synergetics terms, and a tetrahedron is a minimum systemic event, then this example shows I think pretty clearly that we need to place that tetrahedron in a four-dimensional space. If one wants to place that location into a cartesian coordinate system, say based upon longitude and latitude, then yes, we have to translate it into 3D coordinates. I'd be interested to know how GPS and other satellite navigation tools deal with this. Does this make sense or am I missing something here? Chris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 07:24:52 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Race - Frank Davis wrote: >Who really cares as to whether you have a new firewall, or what is good >debating skill. I still find your attitude to be racist and hateful. That is >not flaming. -- > >F. Willis Davis >UPDATE Magazine!, Editor >P.O. Box 17 >Mexico, IN 46958 >fdavis@holli.com I agree, that may not be flaming. But it's confusing. Whom are you addressing I wonder? I think must be a cross-posting of some kind. I see no record of anyone mentioning a new firewall here in bit.listserv.geodesic (also an email list). Ain't internet fun? Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 15:32:13 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Race - In Message Mon, 04 Dec 1995 07:24:52 +0000 (GMT), Kirby Urner writes: >Frank Davis wrote: > >>Who really cares as to whether you have a new firewall, or what is good >>debating skill. I still find your attitude to be racist and hateful. That is >>not flaming. -- >> >>F. Willis Davis >>UPDATE Magazine!, Editor >>P.O. Box 17 >>Mexico, IN 46958 >>fdavis@holli.com > > >I agree, that may not be flaming. But it's confusing. >Whom are you addressing I wonder? > >I think must be a cross-posting of some kind. I see no >record of anyone mentioning a new firewall here in >bit.listserv.geodesic (also an email list). > >Ain't internet fun? > >Kirby i think you missed James reply to Davis. It will be intresting to have an image of the pattren of use in the intrnet, becuse i think some people just hop from one newsgroup to another, i have doen it few times. the internet have strong effect on the user,it stimulates reactions. i think some just send one or two email and forget about it, which means it is not an issue they are really interested in. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:32:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume (Steve/Kirby) Steven Coombs said: >>> I am attempting to glean some of the genius from Fuller's amazing >>> life-work while side-stepping the landmines of his eccentricity: >>> inventing words / multiple definitions of terms / self reference / >>> stream of consciousness writing, etc... Are these "noise" components of the received signal deliberate? If so, we don't understand something. Are they errors? If so, then Bucky was too busy trying to get his message out to try to work from a prepared speech or set of notes, and one must simply admit the minor errors, and admire the man's willingness to speak without a script, and answer questions by shooting "from the hip". On a regular basis, I am forced to read some computer source code that I wrote long ago. Even though I am rather good about writing comments and notes in my code, I have occasional problems understanding just WHAT I was doing, and what the code does. Hence, the catch-all phrase "It seemed like a good idea at the time, I'm sure." This software was NOT changed behind my back, since it is kept under revision control. If I can't even comprehend myself, how can I expect folks like Bucky to do better at leaving little notes for the rest of us? Both "Synergetics" and some software can be described by the same statement: It was hard to do, and it is hard to understand. If either was easy, it would have been done before. Perhaps the problem is the limits of English as a language. Most technical specialties develop their own dialects over time, but for some reason, I can use the term "CD", which means any of the following very different things: - A shiny round disc that holds data for the computer. - A shiny round disc that holds music for the stereo. - A form of investment (Certificate of Deposit). ...in common use, plus the following specialized uses: - A "capactive discharge" unit used in electronics. - A line connecting points "C" and "D". ...and no one says that I have made an error by using a term with multiple definitions. Must we hold Bucky to a higher standard than ourselves? Meanwhile, Kirby commented: >Fuller himself talked about how a process of refining one's definitions >over time can be one of settling into patterns which change less frequently >as their internal inconsistencies are worked out and the generalized >principles worked in -- but all recordings of insight are subject to decay >over time. While this is "unfair" if there is not new information that is the basis for the redefinition, this is not such a pain. For example, everyone knows what a "window" is, right? My concept of a window has changed over the years to the point where I have no "windows" that "open". Ventilation, light, and view are very different animals. When I need ventilation, I design in something that you can't see through. When I need sunlight, I design in something that may not offer a "view" (such as the glass block stuff). When I want a view, I use normal glass or some fancy plastic, but it rarely opens, rarely has moving parts, and does not offer ventilation. Why? Because some brain-damaged fool came up with the "double-hung window", which is one of the most expensive counter-productive items I can think of! (Don't even get me started on the concept of a "door"!!) When the "Complete Hypertext Bucky" is released (I would expect it to consist of several Gigabytes minimum, perhaps a Terrabyte), the reader will be able to "drill down" from one use of a term to other uses of the same term in the same context, and check the date of each speech or writing. This would allow us to see the slow growth of Bucky's concepts over time, and better see how Bucky was redirected by events and meetings with others. I go through the same process in the design of anything more complex than a toaster. As one moves through the "design spiral" (oops, I just made up a term!), the various factors force one to throw out or reconsider factors that were "decided" in prior revisions of the design. Since the process (to me) "feels" like a spiral, one DOES go around in circles, but the process takes one up (or down) towards a final "solution". Is the design of ANYTHING ever "done"? Of course not. Just look at hammers. Every trade has its own specialized hammer, different from all others. New ones are invented every year. I am "done" a design when I decide to stop, but the work as a whole remains "undone" in the eyes of others, who try to improve upon what I did. >Synergetics is too 'mushy' for the math-heads, too 'cold and austere' for >the humanities crowd. Then who were the folks who crowded Bucky's lectures and speeches? I was not aware that Bucky had a narrow "market segment". >Some might assert that a language which permits perpetual redefinition of its >key terms is thereby precluded from attaining a high degree of precision, at >least with regard to matters scientific. This "redefinition" stuff is not unique to Bucky! A guy from the 4th Century named Chaung Tzu said: "Conditions are not invariable, terms are not final. Thus the wise man looks into space, and does not regard the small as too little, nor the great as too much; for he knows that there is no limit to dimension." The fat lady has not yet sung on any of these issues. Anyone expecting neat and tidy facts, clearly defined terms, or 100% consistency has a surprise in store. How big is the universe? The number changes every year. How much mass is in the universe? Ditto. What can be said about most dead scientists? That they were wrong. What can we say about the universe itself? That we are wrong, too. We live an ever-unfolding story that should be named "Paradigms Lost". What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:32:47 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: GPS Vectors Chris said: >If one wants to place that location into a cartesian coordinate system, say >based upon longitude and latitude, then yes, we have to translate it into >3D coordinates. I'd be interested to know how GPS and other satellite >navigation tools deal with this. GPS units communicate with more then one bird to give you a reading. Some of the GPS units want to "talk" with 4 or 5 birds before making up their minds, which can be a real pain when one is down in a gully or canyon! Most GPS units give you your elevation, as well as Lat. and Long. This seems to indicate that the bird knows how far it is from sea level (the orbital distance), and the vectors are true 3D vectors, rather than simpler "triangulation". You are on the surface of a rough sphere, and the time lags between synchonized pulses from multiple birds are compared to determine the distance to each bird that can be "seen" from your location. The birds spin at the same rate as the earth, so they "know" where they are. Your movement is relative to the "stationary" brids, who spend their days hanging over the same spot. I would expect that "seeing" 2 or 3 birds at the same time would be enough to get your location within the 8 to 9 meter accuracy that GPS gives you. I would rather have a system that tells me WHY I am here, and reminds me if I have been here before. But GPS helps me with Zen concepts, because no matter where you go, there you are. The US-Sprint phone company wants me to "Be Here Now", so I guess I'll stay for a while. What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:59:33 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Newsgroups/Mailing Lists Kriby said: >>I think must be a cross-posting of some kind.... >>bit.listserv.geodesic (also an email list). Tadgi replied: > i think you missed James reply to Davis. > It will be intresting to have an image of the pattren of > use in the intrnet, becuse i think some people > just hop from one newsgroup to another, i have doen it > few times. the internet have strong effect on the user,it > stimulates reactions. Ooops! My fault. Please correct me. I subscribe to both the following e-mail lists: GEODESIC@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU synergetics-l@teleport.com If neither one forwards things to bit.listserv.geodesic, then I am confused. I tend to avoid "cross-mailing" to both lists, but I get Mr. Moore's many forwards from one list to the other, often getting multiple copies of the same thing in the process. Can someone draw me a picture? What exactly is the process? I presumed that one should "reply" to the list that sent the original message, and no other. I like the mail interface, since I can re-route my e-mail to follow me around the planet as I travel. What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:23:01 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Publisher of Dome Books 1&2 and Geodesic Math Comments: To: traderjc@aol.com In-Reply-To: <49saml$g00@newsbf02.news.aol.com>; from "Traderjc" at Dec 3, 95 9:03 am Traderjc writes: > > The following books recommended in this group sound interesting to some > applications I am developing but I cannot find the publisher contact info: > > Dome Book 1 > Dome Book 2 Domebooks 1&2 by Shelter Publications, P.O.Box 279, Bolinas, CA 94924 > Geodesic Math By University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles, CA and London, England > > They are not in my Books in Print reference by title. Can someone please > e-mail > or post the publisher contact information? Will be much appreciated. I think they are all out of print. I suggest posting a Want-to-Buy notice in one of the books.marketplace newsgroups (or here also). > Jim Campbell -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:13:03 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dave suwala Subject: Re[2]: ETHANOL vs Methane James, I recently heard a talk on the subject of the electric car as a solution for the air pollution (in this case, it was in North Carolina) problem. The speaker referred to the vehicles as ZEVs (Zero Emission Vehicles). His literature even showed the low emissions from these vehicles. However, he failed to mention that there were emissions from the smokestack of the power plant (likely coal-fired) that provided the power for the vehicle. I guess if you generated the power by solar or wind collectors or even geothermal you would avoid this remote source of pollution. Of course, such power sources currently provide only a small percentage of our power needs. It seems that there is a great deal of hype which diverts our attention from the world view when discussing these local solutions to the energy/pollution problem. Dave.Suwala@Reichhold.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane Author: "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" at Internet Date: 11/30/95 6:27 PM David T. Middleton said: >It seems to me that these fuels still contain carbon and hence when burned >will produce CO2, a green house gas. What non carbon options do we have >besides hydrogen and solar? In order of probability of being a "real solution" in the real world: Low-Head Hydropower Solar (Passive) Solar (Water or Rock Store) Solar (Phase-Change Salts) Solar (Solar Cells) Wind Geothermal Hydrogen Wave Action What smells so bad? Perhaps it is that New World Odor everyone is talking about james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:47:35 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dave suwala Subject: Re[2]: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) Kirby, By no means was my statement a throwing up of one's hands. I had hoped to convey that if we could take our technology to other unexploited places, planets, moons, space stations, etc. we could leave mother earth alone. That way, we could always return from our voyages through the universe to an unspoiled place of waterfalls, springs, woodlands, vast, clean resources. I just think that mother earth needs a rest but I hope that man can continue to pursue his very successful quest for better materials, and their more efficient application. After a few centuries of doing more with less we will have developed a culture in which acquisitiveness plays a small role in human development. Dave.Suwala@Reichhold.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) Author: "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" at Internet Date: 12/1/95 9:10 PM dave suwala wrote: > > the environment that we all live within spirals down to a low gravy > anyway. I always wonder whether our efforts in space will be > rewarded by a breakout from this injured earth. But I guess that > men will be as damaging to the galaxy and universe as they have been > to Bangladesh, NYC, our fishing grounds, etc. I wonder whether we > will use up all of the convenient chemical fuel before we develop > systems (Biosphere 2, for example) capable of enabling us to survive > in space or on the planets and grab and use more stuff exponentially > and synergetically. > > Where can I find "Grunch of Giants"? Always looking for more > literature on Bucky Fuller. > > Compassionately but stoically, > > Dave.Suwala@Reichhold.com Kid: will we ever go into space Bucky? Bucky: we're already in space, dearie [paraphrase] World Game data indicated, up to at least a few years ago, we had the ingredients for planetary success on a sustainable basis. Probably still do. Bangladesh, where I've lived some (parents more) ain't so bad, environmentally speaking, but could easily be made worse if some of the new megaprojects being eyed by the lenders are put through. Throwing up one's hands and turning towards space is defeatism in my view. This biosphere/spaceship is as good as any within a huge number of light years, most likely. Silly to give up on it. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 20:26:02 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: On the Concept of Race (from sci.philosophy.meta) Frank Davis wrote: >Kirby, what a sad definition of a racist you have. It offends me far more and >sseems as likely to be as hateful as a Ku Klux Klans observation. As long as >we deny in one form or another what we really see (no matter how poetic, >theetie weetie or politically correct the reason) we can not make progress >towards getting along. If I try to lie and say that my white Welsh ancestry >skin is the same as my Cental African cousins, then all I portray is >stupidity, not clor blindness. Do not take this as a flame, just a heartfelt >reaction to a philosophy that will not forward relations among people. >Celebrate the differences and enjoy them as the very spices of life. 'Nuff >said! -- > >F. Willis Davis >UPDATE Magazine!, Editor >P.O. Box 17 >Mexico, IN 46958 >fdavis@holli.com Thanks for clarifying your point -- your earlier post was confusing. I'm not suggesting we ignore obvious differences in peoples' genetics, just that we not perpetuate pseudoscientific concepts (such as race) in order to do it. Have you ever seen Mr. Potato Head? It's a toy where you stick on noses, ears, lips whatever. We have this huge box of different attributes. Today, we are seeing more people with newer combinations: white skin and almond eyes for example. The Ku Klux Klan is against this because it identifies some combinations of genetic attributes as 'racially pure' -- and they think the races shouldn't mix. I think the entire gene pool is the common heritage of all humans and should not, need not, be carved up into racial groupings, especially in these days of global convergence among all peoples and cultures. I'm saying that we can notice all these differences without codifying certain special combinations of attributes as 'the 5 races of human' (or 7 or 10 or whatever), and then trying to describe all the people who don't fit neatly into any of the 5 as "mixed race." To me, it all seems wasted effort to create a taxonomy we don't need, it preserves the prejudice of racial purity versus mongrelized (an ugly and insulting distinction), and perpetuates pseudo-scientific ideas that have a long history of being used for apartheid-type societies (such as in the USA), or worse. Moreover, many of the "racial" and/or "racist" concepts in circulation today have little to do with the anthropological concept of race (which is primarily what I'm critiquing). In Britain, Caucasians of dark skin are called 'colored.' In the USA, people invent terms like Anglo, because the racial term 'caucasian' includes so many people of color on the Indian subcontinent. Its a confusing mess with bad science at its root. On modern USA forms, people are asked if they're Hispanic, but this is not a racial category in anthropology, so far as I know. Many people who are ethnically Hispanic are racially black. You can also be racially Asian but ethnically... who knows? so many possibilities in today's multicultural world. The important distinction between ethnic heritage and genetic heritage gets all shmooed together in ways that obscure history and enforce stereotypes. Chinese infants adopted into Welsh-Irish families should take pride in their Celtic ethnic heritage as they grow up. And they shouldn't be forced to learn Chinese just because we think genetics and ethnicity are supposed to match in lots of preconceived ways. I am all for celebrating diversity, but I believe we can do this more intelligently and compassionately than the concept of 'race' currently allows. My views are way at the other end of the spectrum from the Ku Klux Klan's because I look forward to a world where we do not care about 'racial purity', because we have jettisoned the whole racist baggage. I do not deny my ancestry and am proud of my ethnic heritage -- and the genes are OK too, though I find it harder to get excited about purely biological attributes. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:57:19 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: teekay@WORLDTEL.COM Organization: WorldTel Internet (604-587-3877), Canada Subject: Re: Announcement GPS Web-based Discussion List hong@neosoft.com (Helen Young) wrote: >In article , jas A >Web-based discussion list for Global Positioning System >(GPS) has been introduced on GeoWeb. Any >this web conferencing system easier to use. >The URL is http://www.ggrweb.com/gpsbbs.html Sounds good - try that URL again please. My browser says no such animal! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:13:06 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: ONLINE BOOKSTORE I found the following books & tapes by or about Bucky Fuller's work at: AMAZON.COM, INC. TEL: 1-800-201-7575 2710 FIRST AVENUE SOUTH FAX: 1-206-622-2405 SEATTLE, WA 98134 USA http://www.Amazon.com; help@amazon.com AROUND THE UNIVERSE IN 90 MINUTES WITH R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER #1606/Cassette; Hardcover; $15.00 (Special Order) ARTIFACTS OF R.BUCKMINSTER FULLER: VOL 1, THE DYMAXION EXPERIMENT, 1926-43 R.Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $120.00 (Special Order) ARTIFACTS OF R.BUCKMINSTER FULLER: VOL 2, DYMAXION DEPLOYMENT, 1927-46 R.Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $120.00 (Special Order) ARTIFACTS OF R.BUCKMINSTER FULLER: VOL 3, GEODESIC REVOLUTION,PART 1,1947-59 R.Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $120.00 (Special Order) ARTIFACTS OF R.BUCKMINSTER FULLER: VOL 4, GEODESIC REVOLUTION,PART 2,1960-83 R.Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $120.00 (Special Order) BUCKMINSTER FULLER Martin Pawley; Hardcover; $24.95 BUCKMINSTER FULLER (Pioneers in Change Series) Robert R. Potter; Paperback, $7.95; Library Binding, $13.98 BUCKMINSTER FULLER: A PRIMER CONVERSATION Audio Cassette; Hardcover; $10.80 (Special Order) BUCKMINSTER FULLER'S UNIVERSE: AN APPRECIATION Lloyd Steven Sieden; Hardcover; $24.95 (Special Order) BUCKYWORKS: BUCKMINSTER FULLER'S IDEAS TODAY J. Baldwin; Hardcover; $29.95 (Not Yet Published) DOME SCRAP BOOK George P. Swanson; Paperback; $15.26 ENGINEERING A NEW ARCHITECTURE Tony Robbin, Yale University Press; Hardcover (Not Yet Published) A FULLER EXPLANATION: THE SYNERGETIC GEOMETRY OF R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER (Design Science Collection);Amy C.Edmondson;Hardcover;$49.50(Special Order) GEODESIC AND GEOLATIC DOMES AND SPACE STRUCTURES G.W. Morgan; Hardcover; $65.00 (Special Order) GEODESIC DOMES Borin Van Loon; Paperback; $12.95 GEODESIC FLOOR PLANS Prepared by Cathedralite; Paperback; $20.95 (Special Order) HUMANS IN UNIVERSE Richard Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $28.60 (Special Order) MIND'S EYE OF RICHARD BUCKMINSTER FULLER Donald W. Robertson; Hardcover; $9.30 (Special Order) R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER ON EDUCATION Richard Buckminster Fuller; Paperback; $12.95 (Special Order) RICHARD BUCKMINSTER FULLER, ARCHITECT: 20 YEARS OF JOURNAL REVIEWS (Architecture Series): Bibliography, a 2004; Dale E. Casper; Paperback; $5.85 (Special Order) SPHERICAL MODELS by ??; Paperback; $?? (Special Order) SYNERGETIC STEW: EXPLORATIONS IN DYMAXION DINING by Buckminster Fuller Institute Staff; Paperback; $4.95 (Special Order) SYNERGETICS DICTIONARY: THE MIND OF BUCKMINSTER FULLER E. J. Applewhite; Hardcover; $500.00 (Special Order) TETRASCROLL: GOLDILOCKS AND THE THREE BEARS R. Buchminster Fuller; Paperback; $7.95 WORLD OF BUCKMINSTER FULLER Robert Snyder; VHS Tape; $29.99 (Special Order) -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:21:09 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Newsgroups/Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <199512041603.LAA13853@crucible.inmind.com>; from "James Fischer" at Dec 4, 95 10:59 am As best I understand it, the Synergetics list goes only to it's subscribers. The Geodesic list not only goes to it's subscribers, but also is gatewayed to the newsgroup bit.listserv.geodesic. Sometimes a post is sent to both lists; sometimes a post to one list is forewarded to the other if relevant. Only the Geodesic list is archived. If a person gets all three of the above, there will be some duplication. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Dec 1995 22:34:37 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Re[2]: ETHANOL vs Methane Dave.Suwala@Reichhold.com noted: > James, > I recently heard a talk on the subject of the electric car as a > solution for the air pollution (in this case, it was in North > Carolina) problem. The speaker referred to the vehicles as ZEVs (Zero > Emission Vehicles). His literature even showed the low emissions from > these vehicles. However, he failed to mention that there were > emissions from the smokestack of the power plant (likely coal-fired) > that provided the power for the vehicle.... What sort of "emissions" would a battery and an electric motor produce? I hope that the car itself produces NO "emissions" (in the sense of exhaust) whatsoever! Did you save the literature? You noted a very important point: When you use an electric vacumn cleaner, you may be making your place "clean", but you are making somewhere else "dirty". I have no idea what the actual emissions per KW would be for a coal-fired plant, (the result MAY be far LESS emissions than a car would create) but I agree that the car is part of a NON-zero emission system. A true ZEV would be a canoe, a bike, or a solar-charged electric car. The claimed "ZEV" depends upon the electric companies to provide the charging, so it is yet another attempt to appear "green" while simply stealing market share from the oil companies. At least they are trying... What smells so bad? Perhaps it is the New World Odor everyone talks about. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 04:34:27 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Thigpen Organization: Netcom Subject: design science,BFI and us To all: I have spent the past 6 months reading through this newsgroup and never responding or posting a message to it. I have been aware of Bucky's work for the past 12 years and have struggled to understand it fully. I guess I have felt that I couldn't add to the so called "Bucky Speak" being discussed here but have been intrigued by the dialogue. You might say that I relate to Bucky more from the heart than the head, thus I have always respected him and what he accomplished and tried to accomplish in his life time. In the past I have worked with and supported the Buckminster Fuller Institute and Jaime Snyder. I haven't been in touch with either for the past four or five years yet I have been wondering lately about BFI and how they have been doing . Recently there have been postings about BFI and it's current evolution. A new executive director was recently appointed who said that he felt the thrust of BFI and it's new location in Santa Barbara would be geared toward a more active design science process (my interpretation). I feel that this is a very important step for BFI and would like to support this process. In addition I would like to propose further discussion on this direction for BFI and what it means to you. I'd like to begin this discussion by stating that I believe BFI is more than the structure that is relocating to Santa Barbara. BFI is all of us and more. It is the thrust of what Bucky touched in everyone who continues to wonder can we truly reach that place that Bucky envisioned, and what is my role in helping us get there. One of the analogies Bucky used to explain his work was that his effort was like building a bridge over a river gorge. That instead of trying to convince people (trying to change people) to find a better/safer route across the gorge he would build a bridge (artifact) that would allow people to cross the gorge safely. I've spent this past weekend reviewing information from an organization called Sustainable America. This organization is working on developing a new economic model for communities to consider in evaluating where they want to go and grow as a community. Most of their focus at this time is on larger cities and metropolitan areas. They are attempting to build a bridge to help revitalize and sustain these areas. I also started to read Paul Hawkens "The Ecology of Commerce". After two chapters I decided to write this posting because I keep seeing/feeling Bucky's work manifesting in these projects/ideas. I know that most of you are or have been active in your own communities trying to implement what we might call the "design science process". In my community, Eugene, Oregon, we are facing the GIANTS (not the baseball or football teams) attempt to build a 1.3 billion dollar semiconductor plant in our town. The semiconductor industry believes that they need to build over one hundred of these types of plants in the next five years to take advantage of the demand for their product. It's not so much the plant (although I am against this kind of growth in our community) that concerns me but the process that was used to present it to our community. Actually it wasn't being presented, it was being forced on our community. The plant is being proposed to be built in a light industrial park yet will consume more than 1/3 the water and power of the entire city of Eugene. It was presented with the intent of no community review or discussion and in fact was presented as a fast track project that needed immediate approval in order to start building in June of this year or the company would have to find someplace else to build (the announcement of this project occurred in late May of this year). Well it's now December 3rd and they haven't broken ground because of the efforts of many people in Eugene willing to make this project and process accountable to at least the current system and laws. I believe this project will be stopped, yet I struggle with the fact that there isn't a clear design science response available for this situation (actually if anyone would like to respond to this issue from a design science perspective please do). Without getting to carried away with this particular issue ( I promise to keep you informed!) the purpose of this posting is to propose that BFI and all of its constituents begin to share/discuss the design science process that is occurring in their lives and communities to the rest of the world (starting with this newsgroup). Kirby Urner has recently written about the design science approach to a virtual government. I think this is a very good idea and support the process of virtual design science solutions being explored more deeply here and within the scope of BFI and its new evolution. Lets bring Bucky's work into the present by sharing our successes and failures of implementing the design science process into our lives and communities. Sincerely David Thigpen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 08:13:26 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Paul R. Kosuth" Subject: Re: design science,BFI and us In-Reply-To: <4a0i4j$6us@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> Concerning BFI, I think that the design sci focus is excellent though I would also like to see a development of focus into the education system. I teach grades 7 to 12 and find alot of my Bucky work in translation. Could there be a way to get some more student friendly materials together to get the word and experiences where we can really impact: the kids today who will be the leaders tomorrow. Paul Kosuth prkosuth@prairinet.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 06:50:19 -0800 Reply-To: ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Denis F. Blue" Subject: World Scientists Warning to Humanity Bill Paton's recent recycling of the "WORLD SCIENTISTS' WARNING TO HUMANITY" public statement issued in November 1992 by some members of the Union of Concerned Scientists' , is a timely reminder of many of the problems facing humanity, and the scientific establishment's inadequate and misleading response to resolving them. It's been pointed out that freedom of speech is misused when, for example, someone yells "fire!" in a crowded theatre, when there actually is no fire. It must be recognized too that in cases where there is a fire, those who point out the wrong, dead-end, exit do no one any service. The distinguished scientists' warning is surely just such a disservice. Looking at the document, one is struck by the unwavering focus the document places on a particular paradigm, resource scarcity, and one main strategy for resolving the many problems facing humanity : population control. Oh yes, there's rhetoric about reducing wastes , pollution, and poverty, but the bottom line is clear: control our numbers before we lose control of the life support system. This is by no means a recent realization by the scientific elite. A dispassionate review reveals a long history to the population control paradigm- and its ancillary paradigm partners: social darwinism, scientific racism , eugenics, and their ilk. History is able to provide many examples of influential scientific, academic , political and financial forces that have subscribed to these same anti-population precepts. Readers of this list will be aware of the approach Bucky Fuller took in response to the shrill voices of anti- populationists: he retorted: what resource scarcity? What know-how scarcity? The Warning document posits that the Earth's " ability to provide food and energy is finite. Its ability to provide for growing numbers of people is finite. And we are fast approaching many of the earth's limits". Bucky disputed this. He pointed out there is more than enough food, energy, resources and human know-how to take care of everyone living now and in the foreseeable future, and at a much higher standard of living than is currently available. He maintained that this could be accomplished without polluting the Earth or compromising peoples' freedoms. And he said that what is lacking is the popular knowledge of this option and will to implement it. The Warning rightly points out some of the dangerous side effects of the economic game: the misplaced resources we call pollution, and the insensitivity to poverty, conservation and biological diversity. But then it proceeds to assume the resource scarcity paradigm, which as Fuller pointed out is the basis for the economic systems that got us into this mess in the first place. And when the Concerned Scientists lay the blame for this alleged scarcity and poverty on our population, rather than on ignorance and the hoarding and squandering of our abundance, they then embrace a dangerous paradigm for analysing the real problems we face. For example, although the Warning puts forth the proposition that we can raise living standards ( the 'demographic transition' model ) to deal with the "unrestrained" population growth that so frightens them, there are others, equally panicked by our population, who posit an alternate strategy for dealing with this same paradigm . For example: V.D. Abernethy , writing in a recent Scientific American ( book review, July 1995 ) argues , as have numerous anti-populationists before, that instead of the demographic transition model to reach the goal of population control: "...it is perception of the fact and threat of declining living standards that have induced countless people to limit family size. Indeed, the data suggest - but well-meaning people are loath to state- that past government subsidies of food, housing, health care and education (made possible by international development aid) were counterproductive precisely because they fostered images of abundance and prosperity." "Every time Moffett (the author of the book (Crowd Control. Viking, 1994) VD Abernathy is reviewing) mentions the "demographic transition" it chills the blood: cash infusions that subsidize consumption seem only to fuel high fertility."... Accepting the premise that human population growth is inherently bad, as have the Warning's signatories, if this crowd should once again get stampeded into other pseudo- scientific analyses , such as those posited by the VD Abernathys of the world, the consequences for world poverty and instability are truly frightening. Sorry if this missive has gone on a bit long now, but I'd like to make a couple of quick points that I can get back to should anyone be interested in further discussion on this. Firstly, population growth is a measure of human success. The population growth we've experienced has been as a result of our increasing longevity, not our birthrate, as the Warning implies. Tragically, as the scholar Alan Chase so aptly put it, the many children of poor are destined to "crowd only the graveyards". Perhaps had the distinguished crowd of scientists who composed and signed the Warning bothered to include a demographer in their deliberations (which were held when, and what evidence and nay-sayers were included in this most critical of planetary issues?), this might have tempered their enthusiasm for simplistic and misdirected solutions. Secondly, in terms of eliminating poverty, an avowed goal of the Warning, the bulk of the evidence surely indicates that in the long term , large populations have produced greater wealth and security than small populations. There are big problems to confront in our goal of making a success of humanity on Spaceship Earth. The Warning issued by the Union of Concerned Scientists falls far short of providing adequate analysis of and solutions to these problems. -- ### ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 07:38:49 -0500 Reply-To: Fiberbits Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Fiberbits Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: dome available My husband and I were going to build a dome, but our life has changed. Really we have found it too restrictive to build our dream home in the metro areas that we need to live in for my husbands job. Anyway, we would like to sell our dome kits and the #1 southern yellow pine struts already cut to size. The kit is from Natural Spaces. The other idea is to donate it to a non profit org. that could use it. Any ideas out there? Jim Foster Ameritech, Inc. Jim.Foster@x400gw.ameritech.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:22:34 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: NEWSGROUP STATS USENET STATISTICS FOR: bit.listserv.geodesic; Dec 4, 1995 Gatewayed from geodesic@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu. (List for Discussion of Fuller) Readers: 7900 (0.1%) Mesgs per month/day: 292/10 Crossposting: 0% Megs per month/day: 0.9/0.030 Sites reciving this Group: 38% Cost ratio ($US/month/rdr): 0.05 http://sunsite.unc.edu/usenet-i/ -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:06:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steven L Combs Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Subject: Dimension & Volume On locating an extra-terrestial transmitter: No, I don't think you would need four receivers. In fact, it seems to me that you would only need two. On a near-flat surface, as a local area on the huge sphere of earth can seem, the only need for a third receiver is in case the first two receivers end up diagramming a straight line between each other. The third receiver is needed to pinpoint the signal somewhere along that line. However, two vectors pointed out from earth will only cross at one point, identifying the transmitter location. (Assuming you don't put your two receivers on polar points opposite one another. In which case they could overlap into a single vector if the transmitter were directly overhead.) Sincerely, Steven Combs p.s. Reading Bucky changed my life. The fact that I feel free to question, quibble, and alter synergetics to suit my purposes doesn't reflect any supposed "failure" of Fuller. He succeeded. Just as a lightning bolt crashing into the primordial seas may have ignited life forces, so has Fuller's explorations in the geometry of thinking stirred the cauldron of human intellectual evolution. Synergetics isn't a sacred text in the sense of being unalterable or infallible, but it is sacred in its ability to rekindle our spirits and our minds. There runs throughout Fuller's work a boldness and nobility that should serve as a beacon guiding us to follow our conscience in service to "making it work". ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:09:27 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Race - >> >>I agree, that may not be flaming. But it's confusing. >>Whom are you addressing I wonder? >> >>Kirby > i think you missed James reply to Davis. > It will be intresting to have an image of the pattren of > use in the intrnet, becuse i think some people > just hop from one newsgroup to another, i have doen it > few times. the internet have strong effect on the user,it > stimulates reactions. i think some just send one or two email > and forget about it, which means it is not an issue they are > really interested in. > Tagdi Yes, the internet is a good teacher of what Bucky called non-simultaneous, only partially-overlapping, scenario Universe. Various lag times enter in such that I see posts "out of sequence" relative to some other chronological ordering. Because of the way newsgroups are distributed, I may not see a post until well after the 'geodesic' subscribers. I have read James' reply to Davis since, and replied to Davis at greater length myself, once I understood his comments were a direct reply to mine. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:23:58 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume (Steve/Kirby) James Fischer wrote: > > For example, everyone knows what a "window" is, right? Something to do with Bill Gates right? > >>Synergetics is too 'mushy' for the math-heads, too 'cold and austere' for >>the humanities crowd. > > Then who were the folks who crowded Bucky's lectures and speeches? > I was not aware that Bucky had a narrow "market segment". Synergetics the books has a different mix of frequencies than Fuller's lectures, in large part thanks to Ed Applewhite's desire to assist Bucky in distilling a 'hard core' or 'purified' or 'refined' version of the subject. Fuller's lectures were more like Critical Path, mixing in Vikings, Polynesians, great pirates and other such fun. The books do indeed have a narrow market segment. >>Some might assert that a language which permits perpetual redefinition of its >>key terms is thereby precluded from attaining a high degree of precision, at >>least with regard to matters scientific. > > This "redefinition" stuff is not unique to Bucky! A guy from the > 4th Century named Chaung Tzu said: > > "Conditions are not invariable, terms are not final. Thus > the wise man looks into space, and does not regard the small > as too little, nor the great as too much; for he knows that > there is no limit to dimension." Nice quote. Note use of 'dimension' (talk about 'overloaded terms'!). Thanks James. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:58:09 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James McCaig Subject: Re: dome available Comments: To: Fiberbits At 07:38 AM 12/5/95 -0500, Fiberbits wrote: >My husband and I were going to build a dome, but our life has changed. >Really we have found it too restrictive to build our dream home in the >metro areas that we need to live in for my husbands job. Anyway, we would >like to sell our dome kits and the #1 southern yellow pine struts already >cut to size. The kit is from Natural Spaces. The other idea is to donate >it to a non profit org. that could use it. Any ideas out there? >Jim Foster >Ameritech, Inc. >Jim.Foster@x400gw.ameritech.com More particulars about the dome, please. What size is it, etc.? > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:06:28 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Synergetic Atomic Model I received my copy of the Synergetic Atomic Model last week. The direction of this paper seems very relevant to me. I have just started so at this point there are only two comments. 1. What does a Tensegrity Edge Vector Sphere look like? Is this a tensegrity sphere with struts and cables? Or is it simply a geodesic sphere with only struts for edges? 2. The pentagonal dodecahedrod has been delineated as a conduit between scales. I have not studied that part yet but am intrigued by a possible connection back to Richard Hawkins work using the pentagonal dodecahedron as reference frame for timestar and now a matrix perhaps compatible with IVM. swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:58:58 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Organization: Binghamton University, Binghamton, NY Subject: Re: ONLINE BOOKSTORE In-Reply-To: <9512041813.aa22520@inside.cruzio.com> Joe - Just a note. You can get the Artifacts volumes directly from Garland Publishing for $50 each. - Marcia On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Joe Moore wrote: > I found the following books & tapes by or about Bucky Fuller's work at: > > AMAZON.COM, INC. TEL: 1-800-201-7575 > 2710 FIRST AVENUE SOUTH FAX: 1-206-622-2405 > SEATTLE, WA 98134 USA http://www.Amazon.com; help@amazon.com > > > AROUND THE UNIVERSE IN 90 MINUTES WITH R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER > #1606/Cassette; Hardcover; $15.00 (Special Order) > > ARTIFACTS OF R.BUCKMINSTER FULLER: VOL 1, THE DYMAXION EXPERIMENT, 1926-43 > R.Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $120.00 (Special Order) > > ARTIFACTS OF R.BUCKMINSTER FULLER: VOL 2, DYMAXION DEPLOYMENT, 1927-46 > R.Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $120.00 (Special Order) > > ARTIFACTS OF R.BUCKMINSTER FULLER: VOL 3, GEODESIC REVOLUTION,PART 1,1947-59 > R.Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $120.00 (Special Order) > > ARTIFACTS OF R.BUCKMINSTER FULLER: VOL 4, GEODESIC REVOLUTION,PART 2,1960-83 > R.Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $120.00 (Special Order) > > BUCKMINSTER FULLER > Martin Pawley; Hardcover; $24.95 > > BUCKMINSTER FULLER (Pioneers in Change Series) > Robert R. Potter; Paperback, $7.95; Library Binding, $13.98 > > BUCKMINSTER FULLER: A PRIMER CONVERSATION > Audio Cassette; Hardcover; $10.80 (Special Order) > > BUCKMINSTER FULLER'S UNIVERSE: AN APPRECIATION > Lloyd Steven Sieden; Hardcover; $24.95 (Special Order) > > BUCKYWORKS: BUCKMINSTER FULLER'S IDEAS TODAY > J. Baldwin; Hardcover; $29.95 (Not Yet Published) > > DOME SCRAP BOOK > George P. Swanson; Paperback; $15.26 > > ENGINEERING A NEW ARCHITECTURE > Tony Robbin, Yale University Press; Hardcover (Not Yet Published) > > A FULLER EXPLANATION: THE SYNERGETIC GEOMETRY OF R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER > (Design Science Collection);Amy C.Edmondson;Hardcover;$49.50(Special Order) > > GEODESIC AND GEOLATIC DOMES AND SPACE STRUCTURES > G.W. Morgan; Hardcover; $65.00 (Special Order) > > GEODESIC DOMES > Borin Van Loon; Paperback; $12.95 > > GEODESIC FLOOR PLANS > Prepared by Cathedralite; Paperback; $20.95 (Special Order) > > HUMANS IN UNIVERSE > Richard Buckminster Fuller; Hardcover; $28.60 (Special Order) > > MIND'S EYE OF RICHARD BUCKMINSTER FULLER > Donald W. Robertson; Hardcover; $9.30 (Special Order) > > R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER ON EDUCATION > Richard Buckminster Fuller; Paperback; $12.95 (Special Order) > > RICHARD BUCKMINSTER FULLER, ARCHITECT: 20 YEARS OF JOURNAL REVIEWS > (Architecture Series): Bibliography, a 2004; Dale E. Casper; > Paperback; $5.85 (Special Order) > > SPHERICAL MODELS > by ??; Paperback; $?? (Special Order) > > SYNERGETIC STEW: EXPLORATIONS IN DYMAXION DINING > by Buckminster Fuller Institute Staff; Paperback; $4.95 (Special Order) > > SYNERGETICS DICTIONARY: THE MIND OF BUCKMINSTER FULLER > E. J. Applewhite; Hardcover; $500.00 (Special Order) > > TETRASCROLL: GOLDILOCKS AND THE THREE BEARS > R. Buchminster Fuller; Paperback; $7.95 > > WORLD OF BUCKMINSTER FULLER > Robert Snyder; VHS Tape; $29.99 (Special Order) > > -- > > JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 > 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 > CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:49:27 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Newsgroups/Mailing Lists Comments: To: Rick Levine In-Reply-To: <199512051825.AA00703@halcyon.com>; from "Rick Levine" at Dec 5, 95 10:25 am Rick Levine writes: > > At 06:21 PM 12/4/95 PST, Joe Moore wrote: > >As best I understand it, the Synergetics list goes only to it's subscribers. > > > >The Geodesic list not only goes to it's subscribers, but also is gatewayed to > >the newsgroup bit.listserv.geodesic. > > What is the address for the Synergetics list. I subscribe to > GEODESIC@UBVM..., but am interested in the other, also. > > =###############################################################= > =#Rick Merlin Levine, Redmond WA ### VOX (206)882-3481 #= > =#=== rlevine@halcyon.com =====### FAX (206)867-1202 #= > =###############################################################= > Send the following message to: Majordomo@teleport.com (leave subject blank) subscribe synergetics-l yourfirstname lastname (that's "L", not "1") -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 22:45:48 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY FAQ FYI, The Buckminster Fuller Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) is located at: http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf/fuller-faq.html The book _Geodesic Math and How to Use It_ by Hugh Kenner (1976) is in print and available from the University of California Press (ISBN: 0-520-02924-0). Sorry, I don't have the address and ordering details. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:10:28 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Newsgroups/Mailing Lists James Ooops! My fault. Please correct me. I subscribe to > both the following e-mail lists: > > GEODESIC@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU > synergetics-l@teleport.com > > If neither one forwards things to bit.listserv.geodesic, > then I am confused. I tend to avoid "cross-mailing" > to both lists, but I get Mr. Moore's many forwards from > one list to the other, often getting multiple copies > of the same thing in the process. tagdi i talking about people who read various news group, some may read 10 or so. these people send email for the moment crossing between syn and geodesic is no problem. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:22:27 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Re[2]: ETHANOL vs Methane James > A true ZEV would be a canoe, a bike, or a solar-charged > electric car. The claimed "ZEV" depends upon the electric > companies to provide the charging, so it is yet another > attempt to appear "green" while simply stealing market > share from the oil companies. At least they are trying... > tagdi Japan had a compitition for best and fastes solar car, they produced a solar car with speed of 50 miles an hour. red this sometime ago and i have not much detail. accentuate the positve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:31:51 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Announcement GPS Web-based Discussion List In Message Mon, 04 Dec 1995 18:57:19 +0000 (GMT), teekay@worldtel.com writes: >hong@neosoft.com (Helen Young) wrote: > >>In article , jas A >>Web-based discussion list for Global Positioning System >>(GPS) has been introduced on GeoWeb. Any >>this web conferencing system easier to use. > >>The URL is http://www.ggrweb.com/gpsbbs.html > >Sounds good - try that URL again please. My browser says no such >animal! tagdi does this mean that we can communicate face to face. it will be very intresting. any information about such systems the video is the most important in teaching, and confrencing for help and geometry drwing and explanation.email can be waste a bit of time. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:51:53 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: design science,BFI and us hello David i use to live in Eugen befor Reagen cam to power from 1978 to 1981 it was very nice city till the cowboy came. Eugen is poor city(the highst poverty level is in A is washington and Oregon) so they might vote yes. David >government. I think this is a very good idea and support the process >of virtual design science solutions being explored more deeply here and >within the scope of BFI and its new evolution. Lets bring Bucky's work >into the present by sharing our successes and failures of implementing >the design science process into our lives and communities. Tagdi i brought the subject of virtualizing but no one said he' Mohamed, you know, give me extra points. anyway it is a subject which bound to come out more and more. my idea is to use it in education. the hippies are doing somthing in California (1960's became invisible). it will be very very intresting to show the average person what is happining in a very easy way be taking them inside the virtual trip with numbers ideas and general relevent science. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:32:05 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) As I was parking my car tonight I heard Terry Gross, interviewer for the weeknight NPR show Fresh Air, say her guest tomorrow would be some Columbia prof who has just written a book on how "the concept of race is a social construct, not a permanent fact of biology." (95% sure she said tomorrow -- which is today by now) Those of you who've been following the Concept of Race thread on GEODESIC, and live within range of NPR, might want to tune in. I hope to catch it on tape. Wonder if this prof lists Fuller, Buckminster R. in his index, for his No Race, No Class essay etc. My guess is not -- but I'd like to be wrong about that. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:58:44 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: design science,BFI and us >Concerning BFI, I think that the design sci focus is excellent though I >would also like to see a development of focus into the education system. >I teach grades 7 to 12 and find alot of my Bucky work in translation. >Could there be a way to get some more student friendly materials together >to get the word and experiences where we can really impact: the kids >today who will be the leaders tomorrow. the problem is there are a lot of material and information, how to organize it well. you need educational stratagey, people who are work in education and organization might come forward and help. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:09:51 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: NEWSGROUP STATS > > Readers: 7900 (0.1%) hello Joe this mean that some might have red the email only once. and some more than once. sites mean a group of news groups, how are they organized. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:28:56 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Dimension & Volume (Steve/Kirby) james For example, everyone knows what a "window" is, right? kirbySomething to do with Bill Gates right? i heard he owns 27 billion dollar, i do not think that is true doesn anyone know. Steve >>>Synergetics is too 'mushy' for the math-heads, too 'cold and austere' for >>>the humanities crowd. >> James >> Then who were the folks who crowded Bucky's lectures and speeches? >> I was not aware that Bucky had a narrow "market segment". tagdi i think that Steve is right even though the F lang is crosses between the two. Kirby >Synergetics the books has a different mix of frequencies than Fuller's >lectures, in large part thanks to Ed Applewhite's desire to assist Bucky >in distilling a 'hard core' or 'purified' or 'refined' version of the >subject. Fuller's lectures were more like Critical Path, mixing in >Vikings, Polynesians, great pirates and other such fun. The books do >indeed have a narrow market segment. there is a need to extricate the wealth from Fuller synergetics by opining discussions, which we are doing to some extent. steve >>>Some might assert that a language which permits perpetual redefinition of its >>>key terms is thereby precluded from attaining a high degree of precision, at >>>least with regard to matters scientific. >> James This "redefinition" stuff is not unique to Bucky! A guy from the >> 4th Century named Chaung Tzu said: >> >> "Conditions are not invariable, terms are not final. Thus >> the wise man looks into space, and does not regard the small >> as too little, nor the great as too much; for he knows that >> there is no limit to dimension." kirby> >Nice quote. Note use of 'dimension' (talk about 'overloaded terms'!). >Thanks James. tagdi is dimension the only puzziling words F uses. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 06:59:54 -0800 Reply-To: ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Denis F. Blue" Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) It has been pointed out that there is now known to be much greater genetic differences WITHIN members of a "race" than there is found to be BETWEEN "races". In other words, geneticists are finding more differences within the genetic codes of people of the same "race" than they're finding when comparing the genes of members of different "races". Therefore a focus on "racial" differences is scientifically specious and is now more indicative of a political (often hidden, agenda) than on questions arising out of current genetic research. -- ### ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:13:28 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) In-Reply-To: <30c55353.20277297@news.teleport.com>; from "Kirby Urner" at Dec 6, 95 8:32 am Kirby Urner writes: > > As I was parking my car tonight I heard Terry Gross, > interviewer for the weeknight NPR show Fresh Air, > say her guest tomorrow would be some Columbia prof Web address for NPR is: http://www.npr.org Email for "Fresh Air" is: freshair@whyy.org The site has info on past and upcoming shows. Newsgroup is: alt.radio.networks.npr Gopher: gopher.npr.org Their FAQ has a lot more info. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:19:57 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: NEWSGROUP STATS In-Reply-To: <51009.tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl>; from "tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL" at Dec 6, 95 2:09 pm tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL writes: > > > Readers: 7900 (0.1%) > > hello Joe > this mean that some might have red the email only once. > and some more than once. > sites mean a group of news groups, how are they organized. Don't know. I'm not familiar with all the technical details of newsgroups. My understanding is that 7,900 is the number of people that read the bit.listserv.geodesic newsgroup. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:57:02 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: BFVI AT ECOMALL Joe Moore wrote: >The EcoMall has one of the more recent versions of the Bucky Fuller Virtual >Institute with lots of links. See: > >http://www.ecomall.com/ecomall/activism/bucky2.htm > >Check it out. > > >-- > >JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 >850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 >CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. Actually, after looking at this page, I'd have to say it isn't a version of the BFVI, but an altogether new page. It does have a link to BFVI (* Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute (Richard Henderson & Joe Moore)) but the link is *wrong* (points to http://www.nets.com/site/raw/fuller.html at the Robert Anton Wilson site). Then it looks like a lot of the content has been copied from BFVI, but lots of the URLs, which one would naturally expect to be live links, are just text -- not very useful to a browser. It links to my dome page, but not the Synergetics on the Web page (the more top-level access point to my 20 or so pages). Further down, it links my name, Kirby Urner, to Jim Plank's Origami Page (Modular). Jim's page is interesting and I'll add a link from my site, but I'm not Jim. Also, there's a "For More information call:" displayed prominently at the top, but no clear indication of whose number this is. On the whole, I'd say this is a sloppy page with lots of problems. For the time being, I will not link to it. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ron Posner Subject: Re: BUCKY FAQ In-Reply-To: <9512052245.aa29693@inside.cruzio.com> On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Joe Moore wrote: > >The book _Geodesic Math and How to Use It_ by Hugh Kenner (1976) is in print >and available from the University of California Press (ISBN: 0-520-02924-0). >Sorry, I don't have the address and ordering details. > Dear All: Try searching University of California Press: http://press-gopher.uchicago.edu:70/CGI/AAUP/gais.cgi/1200/University%20of%20Cal ifornia%20Press for Geodesic Math. Follow the links to the order form. (I know the URL is long, but copy the URL via the clipboard and insert into browser.) Regards, Ron Posner rposner@ocala.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:48:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Frank Davis Subject: unsubscribe Exactly...how does one go about unsubscribing to this list. Please. Where to and what do I have to say? It is only the second group I have ever been part of, and the other disbanded. I have never cross-posted anything in my life. -- F. Willis Davis UPDATE Magazine!, Editor P.O. Box 17 Mexico, IN 46958 fdavis@holli.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:37:04 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: unsubscribe In-Reply-To: ; from "Frank Davis" at Dec 6, 95 9:48 pm Frank Davis writes: > > Exactly...how does one go about unsubscribing to this list. Please. Where to > and what do I have to say? It is only the second group I have ever been part > of, and the other disbanded. I have never cross-posted anything in my life. > > F. Willis Davis > UPDATE Magazine!, Editor > P.O. Box 17 > Mexico, IN 46958 > fdavis@holli.com Send to the computer in Buffalo the following info: To: listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: (leave blank) signoff geodesic firstname lastname -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:44:26 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: To: modelbuilders The idea of using cotton swaps dipped in contact cement is orginal. Thank you for this. Were you able to make more then one level, for instance a complete vector equilibrium? Even if it was just one level that is good enough. I would like to be able to make low cost space frames quickly and easily for modelling and fun and perhaps practical purpose. Will have to try this one out. swami dharmraj aka John Mac Cosham dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au "Anything man needs to do he can afford to do." R.Buckminster Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:02:32 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: U CALIF PRESS University of California Press 2120 Berkeley Way Berkeley, CA 94720 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:51:27 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity right-on, Denis!... or should I type, more correctly on, Dude?... I must say, though, that Bucky'd never say that Earth is not finite, but we know what you mean he meant. ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:00:58 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity some of that is really problematical but, for instance, the so-called ozone hole has existed since at least the IGY ('58-9), when the annual result of the winter/night-time polar vortex was uncovered by Dobson (name of the unit of ozone & the first device to measure it) -- it did not just pop-up when they started looking at it with the TOMSatellite!... in that regard, the So.Cal.Air Quality Mgmt.Districts own figures show that, while population trebled & vehicles 4Xed, the ozone "pollution" of the atmosphere was halved, from the '50s to the '90s -- not that it had much t'do with the AQMD !! as for the fish, they are migratory, and the location of the primary food source does change, without regard for fishographers' pinning their fins to a map. ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:18:48 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane yes, hypernaturalgas does smell like the proverbial rotten egg, but methane is like a pure, mountain breeze!... methanol is easier to make from lignin etc., as opposed to the sugars that ethanol requires, as with trees (predictable response expected .-) but let's just get to the leading question, Where does oil come from?... hint: it does not come from Mobilsaurs' nipples, as Bucky seemed to believe, "doing their all for you" !! ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:22:40 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Jetstream Trailer ah, speaking of the car, did you see the sort of Reverse Dymaxion in the current issue of The Futurist (very Malthusian publication, in general) ?? ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:19:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: domeology Comments: To: "teleport.com geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu wish I'd asked Joe et tu al, earlier, alas!... anyway, what is the state of the art on using the "engineered woods", as the APA refers to plywood & the like, in their wonderful squareness, as post-stressed, structural elements, as I've only seen acouple of very rudimentary exaples of in photographs, as well as of a few hearteningly small (way-bent plywooden) models. another way of putting it is, Do most of these dome-makers utilize framing, with "siding" added on to it as the load upon the working part?... of course, it's possible to extend the discussion to wood that's made into triangles, a rather TRIvial adjustment to cutting plywood!... oops; I meant, triga, I think. ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:21:44 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane >yes, hypernaturalgas does smell like the proverbial rotten egg, but >methane is like a pure, mountain breeze!... >methanol is easier to make from lignin etc., as opposed to the sugars >that ethanol requires, as with trees (predictable response expected .-) > but let's just get to the leading question, >Where does oil come from?... hint: >it does not come from Mobilsaurs' nipples, as Bucky seemed to believe, >"doing their all for you" !! > it takes 250 million years to make one barrel of oil, so verstile a product sucked dry in shorter than 150 years. oil has more than 10,000 kinds of products the 80% of paper and controling workers who contribute nothing to survival are in frenzy to finish what is left from this beautiful resource. you have to remember that the craze for oil really took of after 1950. so it only took 40 years to get most of it from thje ground, it is really sad. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:50:36 -0800 Reply-To: ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Denis F. Blue" Subject: ST.JOHN DIVINE EVENT There appears to be a bit of confusion, on my part at least , about the exhibit "Contemporary Developments in Design Science", which includes a wonderful array of people participating (Fuller, Baer, Coxeter, Loeb, Noguchi, Pinero, Tyng, Wenninger, amoung many others) . Although it was suggested that the exhibit is over, Kirby's most recent 4D Chronicler indicates it will be running "until January 3, 1996 at St. John the Divine, 1047 Amsterdam Avenue, New York, New York 10025, (212-316-7400 )." "The exhibit curator is Haresh Lalvani, Professor of Architecture at Pratt Institute and Design Scientist-in- Residence for the Cathedral of St. John the Divine. This very extensive exhibit will continue to run at the Cathedral through January 3, 1996. It will then move to Pratt Manhattan to run from January 13 to February 9, and then to the Schafler Gallery, Pratt Institute, Brooklyn, from March 13 to April 5. For detailed information call or write the Cathedral of St. John the Divine, or call the Pratt Institute at (718) 636-3517." -- ### ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 06:54:49 -0800 Reply-To: ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Denis F. Blue" Subject: Kirby on Earth (sort of)(James Fischer) James Fischer's recounting of the race between the firemen on horseback and the fire trucks "belching diesel fumes, blaring sirens, and shiny chrome" reminds me of Ivan Illich's analysis of our modern (...) transportation system. As I recall it, based on statistics available to him at the time, he added up the annual number of miles Americans travelled by car . He then divided that total number of hours by the estimated annual number of hours everyone in the United States spent driving their cars (and waiting for the lights to change), the time spent working to earn the money to pay for their cars, the gas, the insurance, the repairs, the hospital bills for injuries, the time spent building the roads, building the cars, repairing the roads, etc. etc. In other words, he added up all the hours spent annually by Americans on the automobile and its infrastructure. When he divided the annual number of miles travelled by Americans by the number of hours spent in and on their cars he found that the result was, I think, about 5 miles per hour. About the speed of walking. -- ### ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:32:26 +0001 Reply-To: Steven L Combs Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steven L Combs Subject: Synergetic Atomic Model Comments: To: dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au Vector Edged Tensegrity Spheres: Imagine an energy vector striking one of the vector star models at its center of gravity. Is there a geodesic form that could accomodate the model's vectors as edges rather than vertex-to-center vectors, so that the star could maintain its identity/integrity while the energy is imported and then realign itself according to efficiency and stability? As the accompanying chart shows, there is a possible accomodation for each shape except the pentagonal dodecahedron (20 vertexes). Pentagonal Dodecahedron as conduit between scales: Since the pentagonal dodecahedron is the only vector star that can't "blow out" to a vector-edged sphere, it must handle incoming energy some other way. Dan Winter (Alphabet Of The Heart) has done a lot of work on how the pentagonal dodecahedron can generate phi-scaled toroidal waveforms ( torus is the only self-regenerating waveform) to translate energy between scales. My interest in Dan's work came about while I was working on the problem of the Higgs boson. The energy of the Higgs boson, 250 GeV, is equal to 16 neutrons and 1 muon. Rhombic dodecahedra and rhombic triacontahedra (S.A.M. neutron model) can be close-packed 16 around 1. This is interesting since traditionally 12 around 1 is the limit for sphere packing. So, I was wondering if 16 neutrons packed around 1 muon (pentagonal dodecahedron in the S.A.M.) might be a start towards a Higgs boson model. But I had never considered the pentagonal dodecahedron to be any particularly special shape - then I ran across Dan's work on the p.d. as a conduit between scales. I subsequently discovered that the p.d. was the only vector star that couldn't "blow out" to preserve its identity. Thus, Bucky is right again in that it is the little bit of apparent "error" (my extra muon's worth of energy) that is the most important part of the puzzle. Isomatrix A & B Quanta: In the Synergetic Atomic Model, I start with the rhombic dodecahedron and use multiplication only by division to get to all the other geodesics. The Isomatrix does not appear until the Unit Tetrahedron defined by the rhombic dodecahedron is subdivided into four "Isomatrix Tetrahedra" and one "Isomatrix Octahedron". Subdivide the isomatrix tetrahedron into 24 pieces and you have what I refer to as the isomatrix A quanta module. Likewise, subdivide the isomatrix octahedron into 48 isomatrix A's and 48 isomatrix B's. Rhombic Dodechedron - tetravolume 6 , 144 Quanta Space Octahedron - tetravolume 4 , 96 Quanta Space Unit Tetrahedron - tetravolume 1 , 24 Quanta Space Isomatrix Tetrahedron - tetravolume 1/8th , 3 Quanta Space Isomatrix Octahedron - tetravolume 1/2 , 12 Quanta Space A Quanta Module - tetravolume 1/24th , 1 Quanta Space Isomatrix A Quanta Module - tetravolume 1/192nd , 1/8th Quanta Space B Quanta Module - tetravolume 1/24th , 1 Quanta Space Isomatrix B Quanta Module - tetravolume 1/192 , 1/8 Quanta Space The values I posted for the internal vector stars of the A & B Quanta modules were off just a bit (less than one half of one percent). But I did say that we were going for "complete accuracy" here, so: A module internal vector sum = 2.8420953.... V Isomatrix A module Sum V = 1.42104765... V B module Sum V = 3.239134... V Isomatrix B module Sum V = 1.619567... V E Quanta module Sum V = 2.7347918...V Sincerely, Steven Combs Syncorswim, Inc. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 14:22:05 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dave suwala Subject: ENERGY >but let's just get to the leading question, >Where does oil come from?... hint: >it does not come from Mobilsaurs' nipples, as Bucky seemed to >believe, "doing their all for you" !! >----- >A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture Ah, Yes, the oil. I used to dream that when all of that easily extractible resource is gone that we could reverse the flow in the pipelines and send the ground up and liquefied garbage (including the sewage effluent, solvents, paints, pesticides, fats, proteins, carbohydrates, newspapers) from our major cities back to the oilfields. There we would inoculate the oilfield with the properly engineered one-celled animal and produce petroleum, propane, methane in jig time. This would complete the cycle giving a new meaning to the term recycle. We would kill two birds (pollution and oilfield depletion) with one stone. Crazy? I guess. It always amazed me as an organic chemist that we were burning up those wonderful purified and engineered organic chemicals (alkanes) in our Carnot cycle engines. To me, it is marvelous that we are only charged $1.19 for a gallon of a distilled chemical. That's some 8 lbs for only a buck and a few cents. Not many chemicals come that cheap. A high price for one of our products would be $9/lb and a low price (no profit on it) would be about 32 cents/lb. Even that would go for about $2.56/gallon. Thanks to President Bush and the other oil magnates for maintaining a price that would be unheard of in Europe. When the crude oil is all gone, where are we going to get the feedstocks for the pharmaceuticals, Buckminsterfullerenes, Teflons, nylons, and other chemical products that we rely on so heavily today. Where will the new materials and engineered composites of carbon fiber, epoxy, polyurethane, come from that the architects rely on to produce their wonders. We should supplant the automobility with the commerce of the mind that comes with the internet. And conserve what little we have left of the precious resources. Lately, tagdi overheard a radio report on the existence of vast stores of methane hydrate under the ocean. Any one have more on that fuel resource. Dave.Suwala@Reichhold.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 14:52:24 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: "Synergetic" gifs, jpegs, or RBFs - I Will Pay $$$!!! Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com This is not a spam! This is a specific message to the Geodesic and Synergetic mailing list members by James Fischer, who is 100% serious about paying for limited rights to use YOUR image of a rhombo-trombone-telephone-doadeka-deck-a-whatever. THE PITCH: Yes, YOU have a chance to make some cold hard cash, payable in US Dollars (the "hardest" currency on the planet) directly to you!!! Astound wives, girl/boyfriends, and co-workers by PROVING that your "messing about" with strange geometry IS a profitable pursuit. Buy new computer toys! Get a coveted ISDN connection! Pay the mortgage or rent!!! Buy more out-of-print Bucky books!!! ENOUGH ALREADY, LET'S HAVE SOME FACTS: Here's the deal. I have a book contract with Macmillan to write and project-manage a multi-author book. The book will be about computer databases, and associated software development tools. We need a cover graphic!!! Something very nice and complex. Something from the group of "Geodesic Artists" would be nice, as I cannot hope to even equal the skill and talent of the folks that have created what I have seen posted so far. Some sort of complex 3-D (Ooops! I should say "4-D") structure would be best in my humble opinion. Since I have carte blanc on the entire book, my humble opinion is all that is required. RULES: Anyone may e-mail me: A) A gif or jpeg of your own work (BinHex encoding is best, but uuencoded is fine too. Please NO RBFs! Make them in struck, but save/grab them as gif/jpeg!!) B) A WWW URL to a page that contains your work. Please use the subject "Book Cover", so my system will not put it in with the rest of my generic e-mail (you don't wanna go there - your stuff will be lost for days/weeks/months amongst the stuff I don't wanna do yet/now/ever). No cheating! The winner's artwork will be posted here, so only submit YOUR OWN CREATION. If you wish to nominate another's work, that is fine, but please be clear that you are doing so. Deadline for submissions is Jan 1, 1996 at the 1st second after the New Year begins, Greenwich time (0:00:01 GMT). The deadline may be extended if I don't get anthing I like in the first round. All submissions remain the copyrighted property of the creator. No use will be made of any submission other than to pick an image or graphic that will be used on the cover of the book. When the "winners" are selected, they will be notified by e-mail that their work has been forwarded to Macmillan's art department for their comments. Some re-work may be requested to make the graphic fit the format, size and other details required to print in 4-color ink on a book cover, but this will be done only after a deal has been struck with you to pay you, and you have agreed to our use of your work. Mock-up book covers will be made from your work, and the mock-ups will be reviewed by a bunch of "suits" who know that anyone who contradicts me is in for a thrashing. They will most likely pick one or two "favorites", in line with my suggestions. The artist who's work appears on the book cover will be given full credit in genuine print and a free copy of the final book. The artist will also be given the opportunity to write a paragraph or two describing the shape or structure. This will be included in the front matter of the book. The artist will also be PAID. Real money. I have no idea how much is typical. I will check on this and try to provide a figure later. The amount will not be huge, but it will not be trivial. The book will have an inital printing of 30,000 to 40,000 copies, assuming that we end up with what we plan to write. The winner will see "his" book in nearly every computer book section of every bookstore in the US and Canada. Shopping malls included. Outside North America? Not a clue. No idea. Runners-up get nothing, but be advised that we will be doing a SERIES of books on similar subjects, so we may plan covers for future books based upon the submissions of the runners-up. The decision of the judge (me) is final, and may seem random. We may also print the same graphic on a CD that will be included with the book. This will be a very pretty thing to hang on your wall, and I will have a CD framed for the winner as a part of the deal, if we do this. Maybe even a brass plaque. The winner will be asked to grant Macmillan a copyright on the image selected. This should not limit your use of the graphic on anything personal (like your own WebSite), but will stop you from selling it to others without permission. (So change it a little, and sell that!) CONCEPT AND OVERALL NEEDS I have a personal view of the process of developing software that I call the "Design Helix", or the "Design Spiral", or some other such complex geometical shape. This is to explain why one must revisit and reconsider factors that may have been "decided" before. My point is that one is NOT "going around in circles", one is moving up (or down) the helix/sprial, and narrowing down the overall scope of the factors/requirements/schedule/cost/features to the point where one has a result that is acceptable. The stuff I have seen to date have many inconnected points. This is good, since the relationships between "factors" in the design process is a "many-to-many" relationship. We DO NOT need a "sprial" or "helix" here, any shape may do just fine. Nearly any structure can be made to fit the bill, since I (like Bucky) can redefine the "helix" to be a "network topology" or some other such pseduo-metaphysical construct. A simplified (perhaps line drawing) of the shape chosen will be used as a page icon, with a different part of the shape highlighted for different chapters. The idea is to make a thumb-index with some class. We will have a full-color cover, but I am partial to a background that would be "black space" (maybe a photo from the Hubble telescope for that), with the object "hanging" in space. You are not expected to provide the background, just the shape artwork. We may commission a MOV, Java, or similar "3-D with motion" version of the graphic for a website about the book. We will also pay for this, but the primary need here is for a nice cover graphic. Questions and comments welcome! I Live In The Garden Of Weed'n james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:35:59 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) Joe Moore wrote: >Email for "Fresh Air" is: freshair@whyy.org... Thanks for the info Joe. I taped the show. Manning Marbales (?) talked about the need to 'deconstruct race' but there wasn't much of that on the show -- not at the level that's been happening here. I may try to get in touch with the guy through the internet (he's the head of a center at Columbia) and forward him some of the 'concept of race' thread. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:42:10 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Future Workshops/Do Tanks Here is an idea for a workshop which is along the lines of a "DO TANK" system. Future Workshops Consultancy Guy Dauncey in his book 'After the Crash - The Emergence of the Rainbow Economy' (Green Print/Merlin Press, L6-99) provides an excellent overview of future workshops. A future workshop is a social invention which could have as profound an effect on human progress as any other yet invented. It is a participatory process which enables people to get together to explore any issue which concerns them, and to develop creative approaches which please them. It releases people's resourcefulness and invites them to take part in creating the kind of future they want. 'A future workshop is a social invention which could have as profound an effect on human progress as any other yet invented' The person who has contributed most to the invention is the Austrian writer Robert Jungk, a refugee from the Nazis in the 1930s, who saw how disastrous the results can be when people experience powerlessness: 'At present the future is being colonised by a tiny group of people,' writes Jungk, 'with citizens moving into a future shaped by this elite. I believe that we should not go blindly into this future.' One of Jungk's early future workshops was run in the coal-mining village of Eisenheim, in Germany. The village was scheduled to be torn down and replaced with modern, high-rise buildings which would bring increased incomes to the developers. The villagers were resisting, but their leaders were being labelled troublemakers and reactionaries who were opposed to change. The villagers felt frustrated and full of bitterness at their powerlessness. With help from a socially committed planner who lived nearby, they cleaned and painted an old coal wash-house for use as a meeting room, and in the course of one day they then held a future workshop, during which they produced dozens of proposals for a modernisation programme in keeping with their needs. They voiced their frustrations and pent-up anger, and worked in small groups with large sheets of paper, dreaming up ideas they wanted to see in their village. No one had ever consulted them before - their ideas had lain idle all these years. The coal mine owned their houses, and told them what to do. They wanted to set up a park, a lending library, a youth centre and a local newspaper, and to have a notice board where people could post up their complaints about the estate management's negligence and harassment. They wanted to create a meeting place where German and foreign workers could get together, and they considered what could be done for pedestrians, and how the sewers and drains could be restored to working order. Eisenheim, they felt, could become a model for other communities by enhancing its own cultural life, by providing more ways for people to get to know each other, and by continuously involving all its residents. 'As long as the villagers remained defensive, they were on the losing side. When they came up with constructive proposals, the authorities had to give way' As long as the villagers remained defensive, they were on the losing side. When they came up with constructive proposals, the authorities had to give way. The village was saved, and a programme of renewal and restoration was put into action following their ideas. The future workshop comes in five phases: - Phase 1, the Preparatory Phase, occurs before the workshop begins, when people are invited to a briefing session so that they know what they will be attending. If the workshop is happening over a weekend, then it starts with: - Phase 2, the Critique Phase, happens on the Friday night. People take time to share their frustrations, irritations and difficulties, which are written on sheets of paper and stuck on the walls. - Phase 3, the Creative Phase, takes place on Saturday. Focusing on their main items of worry, people now let their imaginations roll, dreaming up hundreds of ideas which they would like to see take place, using the brainstorming technique. 'The future workshop liberates the spirit that has been sleeping, and the awakened spirit then begins to create a new reality' - Phase 4 is the Implementation Phase, which starts on Saturday and continues on Sunday. Time is now spent giving detailed attention to the ideas which received the most support. Plans need to be drawn up, working groups formed and arrangements made for follow-up. The miracle of birth is over and the long childhood of a community development project begins. The months and years that follow involve labour, trial, experiment and endless learning. The future workshop liberates the spirit that has been sleeping, and the awakened spirit then begins to create a new reality. - Phase 5 is the Action Phase which takes place over the following months and years. Opposition may have to be overcome and internal tensions resolved and lessons learnt from successes and failures. During the workshop, people grow in confidence, and their horizons stretch. Robert Jungk writes: 'In the fantasy phase of a workshop on 'Alternative Forms of Work' we were taking a short break. A woman broke the silence by saying 'I'm sorry, but I have say something. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've not felt so well in years as during the last couple of hours. That's all I wanted to say. I just had to get it off my chest.' 'The workshop is not just another problem-solving method - it may have a lasting impact on the participants, turning them into activists for social change' 'Many workshop participants, even if they have never been politically minded, become committed in a quite personal way to the search for a more basic restructuring of society. The workshop is not just another problem-solving method - it may have a lasting impact on the participants, turning them into activists for social change.' Through childhood, and in school, college or training, we are rarely invited to contribute our creativity in an open-ended way. We get used to a method of learning which is one-way, in which someone else has the knowledge and expertise. The systems of state examinations allow a few people through the barriers to power and influence, and they then become the experts. The powers-that-be would have us believe that those who do badly at school are simply less intelligent. In this way, people grow used to the idea that someone else will always govern them, be their boss and determine the future of their community. This is why the future workshop is such a critical invention. 'Individuals get an opportunity to spread their wings,' writes Jungk, 'and they discover what they are capable of when serving a larger cause. In the process, their self-confidence grows as they come to realise that they are capable of constructive planning, and thus take their first steps towards adding more meaning to their lives.' The Aberdeen hill-farmers, instead of becoming depressed and committing suicide under the pressure of mounting bills, might decide, through holding a future workshop, to help each other with their emotional strains and worries, to set up a debt-management advisory service, to explore ways in which they could reduce their loss-making operations, to diversify into new operations, to experiment with new crops and organic approaches, to develop the tourist potential of their area, to establish a local development agency to pursue their plans further - and so on. The running of a successful future workshop requires group leaders who understand the facilitator style of leadership, and who are sensitive to the realities of long-term community development. Workshops could be encouraged by locating people who possess these skills and asking them to train a group of local people, who would then become a permanent resource. These people could get in touch with community groups and organisations and interest them in holding workshops as part of a wider community awakening strategy. - The book 'Future Workshops - How to create desirable futures' by Robert Jungk is published by the Institute for Social Inventions, 20 Heber Road, London NW2 6AA (tel 081 208 2853; fax 081 452 6434) at L4-95. - Guy Dauncey, 2069 Kings Road, Victoria, BC V8R 2P6, Canada (tel 604 592 4472 h; 604 592 4473 w and fax). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:44:01 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Social Inventions Institute/Do Tank Here is a useful group of relevance to Dymaxions: Ideas Wanted! Nicholas Albery, Chairman of the Institute for Social Inventions I define a social innovation or social invention as a new and imaginative way of tackling a social problem or improving the quality of life. Unlike a technological invention, it tends to be a new service, rather than a product or patentable process, and there tends to be no money in it. This Encyclopaedia consists of hundreds of donated contributions from so-called 'ordinary people', social inventors in disguise. The Institute for Social Inventions, the organisation which collected these visions, ideas and projects, was launched in 1985 with just this aim - of encouraging the innate inventiveness of the British public and collecting, researching, publicising and carrying out the best ideas. 'Every man and woman in the country should be encouraged to observe, tackle and help to overcome those anomalies and inefficiencies of which he or she has first hand knowledge' The first person I know of who raised the need for an organisation such as ours was Clavell Blount. Back in the 1950s he persuaded an MP to promote a debate in the House on the topic of 'Ideas into Action' and wrote a book of this name, in which he urged that every effort should be made to collect the suggestions of members of the public. As he wrote: 'It seems to me that we have reached a point in our history where we are faced by a choice between two alternatives: 'EITHER we believe it would be best to leave our fate to a few 'master minds' who will decide just how the industrial and social life of this nation is to run, and who will issue their directives through their chains of command; 'OR we think it best that the national 'problem of survival' should be broken down into its smallest practical elements and that, by means of psychological and material incentives, every man and woman in the country should be encouraged to observe, tackle and help to overcome those anomalies and inefficiencies of which he or she has first hand knowledge.' '1,000 Pounds in prizes to be won (see the final pages of this book for details)' The main such incentive that the Institute has been able to offer so far has been that of dangling the bait of our annual competition, judged in June of each year, offering a minimum 1,000 Pounds in prizes and a variable amount of publicity (see the final pages of this book for details). This competition is merely a lure to entice the punter by the finger so that the rest of the body will follow. The Institute then encourages the senders-in-of-ideas to take matters further themselves, often giving hints on whom to approach and how. Some ideas the Institute does take up itself. Most of these are described more fully in this volume. The Institute has launched a social inventions workshop programme in many state schools; and it promotes Community Counselling Circles as a way of training large groups (and has published a book on this). It has helped a number of its own pet schemes get going, including a Natural Death Centre ('to improve the quality of dying' and to support those who are dying at home); an Adopt-a-Planet competition (where school classes caretake a vandalised part of their local neighbourhood); a Hippocratic Oath for Scientists (signed by many Nobel-prize-winning scientists); a Universal Declaration of the Rights of Posterity; a rating scheme for gurus and spiritual masters; a rating scheme for advertisements; and Forum Theatres (to help resolve children's disputes). With help from the Network for Social Change, the Institute has also been active in Eastern Europe, helping found the East Europe Constitution Design Forum which brings together (at international symposia and by fax) the key constitution designers and politicians from Eastern Europe and the ex-Soviet Union, in an attempt to use constitutional and electoral models as a way of defusing some of the ethnic turmoil resulting from the decolonisation of the Soviet empire. The Institute has published a timely book 'Can Civil Wars Be Avoided?' which argues that Local Balance Representation might be a suitable model for many of the emerging democracies (and for Northern Ireland). In this electoral system, parties are penalised and begin to lose seats they would otherwise have won, if they fail to get a minimum number of votes in all areas of the country, thus encouraging them to appeal to all of the various ethnic groupings. But the Institute's primary interest is in helping members of the public to put their own ideas into action - examples in this volume include the Prison Ashram Trust (to encourage meditation by prisoners), the Pathfinder Clubs for schoolchildren set up by Eileen Chandler of Leicester; the Wildlife Areas around Hospitals initiated by Pat Hartridge of Oxford (and now spreading to a number of hospitals); the agroforestry Forest Garden model demonstrated by Robert Hart in Shropshire (now copied in many other places and described in an Institute booklet); and Guy Yeoman's State Dowry project for Kenya (financial incentives to encourage women to have fewer children, now the subject of a small feasibility study). The 92 award winners in the Institute's competitions find a place in this book, and many of these show signs of progress. My personal preference is for projects at the neighbourhood level, where there is still a human scale - indeed the Institute shares with the Prince of Wales the aim of helping to restore this sense of scale to our overblown 'giantist' societies, where most problems are insoluble (or at least beyond the reach of 'ordinary' people) until the scale has been reduced. It is anyway more productive concentrating on neighbourhood schemes at this stage, until the Institute gains leverage as it becomes more weighty and established. It is dispiriting work putting pressure on government ministries, which routinely resist new ideas from outside. One of the greatest pleasures of working with the Institute is watching over the emergence of an international network of social inventors. The Institute itself is part of an educational charity and is backed by Sir Peter Parker, Lord Young of Dartington, Edward de Bono and others. Anita Roddick and her Body Shop colleagues have been especially encouraging with their own ideas and projects and with their help for our competition and for this book. Nor could the Institute have survived without the help of the Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust and of Nicholas Saunders, who is the founder of most of the businesses in Neal's Yard, Covent Garden. He is one of the Institute's five directors; it also has sixteen consultants and some 500 members and subscribers, 'eyes and ears' around the world. There are now Social Invention centres modelled on ours successfully under way in Russia, Sweden and Germany. Many of the people within this network are natural social inventors, as even casual browsers through this volume will realise, for the same names crop up again and again - Clive Akerman, Fred Allen, Margaret Buckley, Steven Burkeman, Cairns Campbell, David Chapman, Margaret Chisman, Guy Dauncey, Alec Dickson, Robert Hart, Conrad Hopman, Tony Judge, Frances Kendall, Roger Knights, Marilyn Mehlmann, Phyllis O'Rourke, John Papworth, John Seymour, Meredith Thring, Gregory Wright, Michael Young, Valerie Yule and John Zube. These are a few of the great social inventors; to me they are the unsung heroes of our times. Rather than an obsession with one particular scheme, the ideal social inventor has a track record of successful projects, with plenty of ideas for more. One of the chief theoreticians of social innovations has been George Fairweather. Writing in the early seventies, he argued that not only was our survival on earth threatened as never before, but also that revolution and non-violent protest were unlikely to bring about the social transformations required. In his view, there needed to be organisations that could deal with problems before they became crises, and that could set up, test, compare and evaluate small-scale innovative solutions before applying them more widely: 'What was good enough to create social change in the sixteenth century,' he wrote, 'is not good enough in the late twentieth and twenty-first centuries. It seems inescapable that a mechanism for social change that involves innovation, advocacy and preparing the culture for the future needs to be created so that continuous problem-solving can occur. Experimental social innovation transcends revolution because it creates continous problem-solving social change.' It is as if Fairweather were drawing up a blueprint for our Institute, although we had not in fact heard of his work before our launch. Anyone who is at all inspired by any of the ideas in this Book of Visions, please join in our adventure - join the Institute as a member (see details below), contribute to the Journal, become a social inventions workshop leader or whatever suits your talents. You will I hope find at least a few ideas in this volume that appeal to you as being not only new and imaginative but also feasible. Anything you can do to help implement them within your profession or sphere of competence, please do. Some of the ideas are evidently not feasible as they stand, but have been included for their provocation value. The trick is not so much to demonstrate your critical faculties by picking holes in the ideas, but, as in brainstorming, more to prove your ingenuity by imagining an improvement or an entirely revamped scheme that would work. 'The trick is not so much to demonstrate your critical faculties by picking holes in the ideas, but, as in brainstorming, more to prove your ingenuity by imagining an improvement' A reminder: towards the back, you will find details of next year's competition. There is satisfaction, modest glory and 1,000 Pounds to be won, and places to be filled in the next edition of this Encyclopaedia. I feel like a recruiting poster: 'Your Country (whichever country it may be) Needs You and Your Ideas.' - 'Ideas Into Action' by Clavell Blount, published by The Clair Press, London, 1962. Clavell Blount can be contacted at 36 Station Road, Thames Ditton, Surrey KT7 ONS (tel 081 398 2117). - 'Social Inventions' by Stuart Conger, published by Information Canada, Prince Albert, 1974. Stuart Conger can be contacted at 572 Highcroft Avenue, Ottawa, Canada K1Z 5J5 (tel 613 729 4913). - 'Social Change: the Challenge to Survival' by George Fairweather, published by General Learning Press, Morristown, N.J.07960, USA, 1972 - Membership of the Institute for Social Inventions, including discounts on books and meetings, a 'Who's Who of Social Inventors' and a journal, costs L15 p.a. (L9 concessionary rate for full-time students, hard-pressed OAPs and UB40 unemployed; L17 by Visa or Mastercard for those outside the UK). Apply to the Institute for Social Inventions, 20 Heber Road, London NW2 6AA (tel 081 208 2853; fax 081 452 6434). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 16:57:30 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: World Energy System Conference Here is an interesting conference coming up next year. It promotes a Global Energy Philosophy, which is one that Buckminster Fuller promoted with his idea of a Global Energy Grid. Bucky felt that this was the first and most crucial step in creating a world which was self sustainable. I think that we Buckyphiles should think perhaps of contributing something. ************************************************** 1996 INTERNATIONAL WORLD ENERGY SYSTEM CONFERENCE June 19-21, 1996 - TORONTO - CANADA *************************************************** THE TRANSITION FROM LOCAL, NATIONAL, REGIONAL TO A GLOBAL ENERGY PHILOSOPHY Energy is an important issue worldwide. Today, the energy system is a globally interconnected entity. In today's context of increased deregulation and privatization, energy, information, technology and energy resources require new and innovative systems of world wide management. The conference will address ways to integrate the global sustainable energy development in a competitive, diverse and restructuring environment. It will stimulate discussions on these challenging issues. THE AIM of the conference is to investigate the requirements for, and the evolution of the emerging world energy system: energy resources, use, and disposal in social, political, economic or technical perspective THEMES: Energy and a sustainable civilization issues: world population , global food supply, quality of life, social justice, peace and international cooperation. Energy resources: gas, oil, coal, nuclear, solar. Technical aspects: new technologies in the field of energy, generation and distribution of electricity, energy storage technology, district heating and cogeneration, conservation and efficient use of energy. Social and political infrastructure: developments and investment opportunities in the energy and economic markets (CEE, NAFTA, APEC). Models of deregulated energy systems and unbundling of services. Management of energy systems, new legislation, deregulation, privatization, restructuring, and global competition. Impact of information technology on the integration of energy systems. Environment and energy: - the four "E's": Economics, Energy, Entropy, Ecology. Forecast on the future development of reliability criteria of energy systems. World Energy System: dream or reality. INITIAL CO-SPONSORS: Canadian Institute World Energy System, Toronto, Canada. Faculty of Engineering and Applied Science, Ryerson Polytechnic University, Toronto, Ontario, Canada. DATES: Abstract: A 1-page, abstract including: paper title, name, affiliation, mailing address, phone & fax numbers, e-mail address is requested by December 31, 1995. Participation notice and/or camera ready copy of Paper: by March 30, 1996. Conference: June 19-21, 1996. PAPER: Maximum 6 pages, typed in two columns with single line. PROCEEDINGS: Conference proceedings will include the keynote addresses, the contributed papers, resolutions and discussions. The proceedings will be available on December 1, 1996 at a price of US$ 150 per copy. PROGRAM COMMITTEE: The program committee is formed of prestigious personalities in the field of energy, legislation and environment. REGISTRATION: Advance registration for the Conference: US$ 350 per participant and US$ 50 per spouse, paid by May 30, 1996, with cheque or money order payable to the Canadian Institute World Energy System, 5 Strathgowan Crescent, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M4N 2Z6. Tel: (416) 487-0479, Fax: (416) 493-7691, E-Mail: WES@acs.ryerson.ca. On-site registration US$385 per participant and US$ 65 per spouse. Student registration: US$ 50 per participant. Fee includes: Tickets to the reception banquet, refreshments, conference proceedings and conference handouts. A fee of US$ 25 is charged for cancellations. EXHIBITS: The cost of one booth is US$ 1200. More information on exhibits, and companies exhibiting will be made available in the Third Call of the Conference. CONFERENCE LOCATION and HOTELS: The conference will be held at the Ryerson University in downtown Toronto, 350 Victoria Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5B 2K3. A list of hotels located nearby Ryerson University will be announced in the Third Conference Call. Special room rates will be available. SPOUSES ACTIVITIES: A wide variety of exciting activities will be organized for attendees' companions. The conference is held downtown with easy access to the subway system. The conference sponsors the following events: a city tour, guides to the upscale shopping centres and boutiques in Yorkville, a tour to Niagara Fall and Niagara-on-the-Lake with stops to the wine region, a tour to the MacMichael Gallery in Kleinburg. Times and costs will be provided during registration. The average daytime temperature in Toronto for mid-June is 17 degrees C (62 degrees F). FOR FURTHER INFORMATION: Contact Prof. V. Nitu, Canadian Institute World Energy System 5 Strathgowan Crescent, Toronto, Ontario, M4N 2Z6 Tel: (416) 487-0479, Fax: (416) 493-7691, E-Mail: WES@acs.ryerson.ca. ANNOUNCEMENT: The inaugural issue of the Journal World Energy System will be made available during the Conference. Please contact Prof. V. Nitu at the above address, should you require any information regarding the subscriptions or the contents of the journal. Submission of papers for the Journal are still in progress. Additional Membersof the Editorial Board still welcome. CO-CHAIRS OF CONFERENCE: Prof. H.K. Burkhardt, Prof. V. Nitu. cut >*******************************************************< cut REGISTRATION FORM 1996 INTERNATIONAL WORLD ENERGY SYSTEM CONFERENCE June 19,20,21 1996 - TORONTO - CANADA Last Name First Name Middle Initial .................... .................... ....................... Firm, University, Other affiliation Mailing Address: Street City State Postal Code Country Telephone Fax E-Mail Address Other Information (Check all that apply) Utility Manufacturing Government Marketing Consultant Investment University Legal Financial NGO Registration Fee: Advance Registration: US $350 per participant and US $50 per spouse paid by May 30, 1996. Late/Site Registration: US$385 per participant and US$ 65 per spouse. Student registration: US$ 50 per participant. The proceedings will be made available on December 1, 1996 at a price of US$ 150 per copy. Method of Payment: Check or Money Order payable to Canadian Institute World Energy System, 5 Strathgowan Crescent, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M4N 2Z6. For further information: Contact Prof. V. Nitu, Canadian Institute World Energy System, 5 Strathgowan Crescent, Toronto, Ontario, M4N 2Z6, Tel: (416) 487- 0479, Fax: (416) 493-7691, E-Mail: WES@acs.ryerson.ca. Refund Policy: No cash refunds will be made at the conference. A cancellation of $25 will be charged for cancellations received after May 30, 1996. Refund requests must be received in writing before June 10, 1996. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 17:32:23 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Vandy Henriksen Subject: Re: unsubscribe >Frank Davis writes: >> >> Exactly...how does one go about unsubscribing to this list. Please. Where to >> and what do I have to say? It is only the second group I have ever been part >> of, and the other disbanded. I have never cross-posted anything in my life. >> > >Send to the computer in Buffalo the following info: > >To: listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu > >Subject: (leave blank) > >signoff geodesic firstname lastname > > >-- > >JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 >850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 >CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. I tried this to unsubscribe and got back a message saying that my firstname (Vandy) was an invalid option, the only valid options being GLobal, LOCal, and NETWIDE. Should there be something else in the "signoff" line? My internet server did change IP addresses a few months back--could this be confusing the listserver? Thanks! Vandy Henriksen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:24:44 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: unsubscribe In-Reply-To: ; from "Vandy Henriksen" at Dec 7, 95 5:32 pm Vandy Henriksen writes: > >Frank Davis writes: > >> Exactly...how does one go about unsubscribing to this list. Please. Where to > >> and what do I have to say? It is only the second group I have ever been part > >> of, and the other disbanded. I have never cross-posted anything in my life. > > > >Send to the computer in Buffalo the following info: > >To: listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu > >Subject: (leave blank) > >signoff geodesic firstname lastname > > I tried this to unsubscribe and got back a message saying that my > firstname (Vandy) was an invalid option, the only valid options being > GLobal, LOCal, and NETWIDE. Should there be something else in the "signoff" > line? My internet server did change IP addresses a few months back--could > this be confusing the listserver? Thanks! Vandy Henriksen After checking my files it appears that the first and last name is not needed in order to signoff. Sorry. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:48:21 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gil Friend Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) It's Manning Marable. (not exactly sure of the spelling, but that's how it sounds) - Gil At 8:35 AM 12/7/95, Kirby Urner wrote: >Joe Moore wrote: > >>Email for "Fresh Air" is: freshair@whyy.org... > >Thanks for the info Joe. I taped the show. Manning Marbales (?) >talked about the need to 'deconstruct race' but there wasn't much >of that on the show -- not at the level that's been happening >here. I may try to get in touch with the guy through the >internet (he's the head of a center at Columbia) and forward >him some of the 'concept of race' thread. > >Kirby > > >-------------------------------------------------------- >Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU >Email: pdx4d@teleport.com >Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:38:56 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Newsgroups/Mailing Lists James Fischer (jfischer@SUPERCOLLIDER.COM) wrote: : Kriby said: : >>I think must be a cross-posting of some kind.... : >>bit.listserv.geodesic (also an email list). : Tadgi replied: : > i think you missed James reply to Davis. : > It will be intresting to have an image of the pattren of : > use in the intrnet, becuse i think some people : > just hop from one newsgroup to another, i have doen it : > few times. the internet have strong effect on the user,it : > stimulates reactions. : Ooops! My fault. Please correct me. I subscribe to : both the following e-mail lists: : GEODESIC@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU : synergetics-l@teleport.com : If neither one forwards things to bit.listserv.geodesic, : then I am confused. I tend to avoid "cross-mailing" : to both lists, but I get Mr. Moore's many forwards from : one list to the other, often getting multiple copies : of the same thing in the process. bit.listserv.geodesic = GEODESIC@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Please do NOT cross post between the Fuller mailing lists. The synergetics group is for discussions relating to Fuller's Geometry. This group is for general Fuller-related discussion. Most people will subscribe to both (like me). And it is annoying to see the same post twice. Moreover GEODESIC has complete logging (synergetics-l is only logged informally by myself (not 100% reliable) and others). I have made GEODSIC logs available at ftp://ftp.netaxs.com/people/cjf/geodesic-logs. They are in standard gzip format. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com (finger me!) | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Design Science Revolutionary http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf | Explorer in Universe "Dare to be Naive" -- Bucky Fuller | Linux Advocate ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:12:58 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane that "oil takes X millions of years to be formed" is likely to be a fundamental misstatement, or a beeg mystaque! ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:33:46 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) and the Fuller Projection well, maybe, you can blame it on the "Chicago School" of political economy, not that I think that Bucky took the remotest interest in their work, there, in that mellieu, but y`never know ... his prognostications seemed to be more personal, as with those about the "australasians", which may turn-out to have more relavence than just the discovery of tin on the banks of [Siamese river], and my personally favoritperspective on on human evolution has a different watery theme (see _The Descent of Woman_ or _The Aquatic Ape_). anyway, why'd you dyss nationstates for being "human contrivances" ??... of course, they are. ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:58:46 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) I'm sorry, but Gingrich and his Conservative Revolutionaries' ideal of "balancing" the budget is as specious an accounting-trick as is possible. his use of Toffler's 3rd Wave crappola is also indicative of his psispace, but it may not've been irreversibly harmed by his pedastriac pedagog, the geometry teacher -- remember, "high-school dating" as an issue?... I don't know if there waf any finifter intent, or juft ftupid, but "Konservativ Revolutionaries" was the name of a political grouping that supported everyone's favorite lone-nut of WW2, Adolph, a movement, if you will, of "fiscal conservatives".... which leads me to ask, What in Hell is a "Reichhold.com" ?!? ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:13:13 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity "nary a ripple", no, because I read about it in the paper and heard about it on Pacifica; one can only do so much with such a whining spiel, after all -- what did you expect, prayer to the memory of Al "ka-boom-boom" Nobel?... so, what's the servicing like on those wire wheels -- do you have to carry a little spoke-wrench? ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:23:38 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity [to continue] you are the most important member, as far as I can see, but this consensual sort of science is irrepeatable -- fortunately, because that's how you learn about the Beeg Mystaques! I have to agree with you about regulating those turkeys, but the internationalist GATT(Treaty) is not the way to go; the WTO is controlled, lock, stock & barrel, by the MNs. I was just listening to some extraordinary #### about the Codex Alimentarius in Rome from Susan Harris of the Law Loft (in Los Angeles, on Pacifica); for instance, Hoffman-LaRoche & Nestle both were represented by 3 countries' "delegates", whether on some sort of exclusive basis, I don't know, as it is literally impossible to get anything on this treaty-related stuff that's not 5yo -- it ain't on the net, boys'n'girls!... of course, I'm presupposing a role for nationstates. ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:39:59 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane James, you completely ignored Z) biomass, just because of your little tiff with the Pillsbury Doughboy (Dwayne Andreas) !! ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:51:08 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Concept of Dimension in Synergetics wopps -- is this the correct list?... oh, well. a good example of superfluous "tetrassociative" stuff is McLuhan's Tetrad; actually, it is not without merit, I guess, but the one time that I cracked _Understanding Media_ oen, I found it to be such a fake-barf of partially-digested bits, I couldn't stand reading it. then, I saw a goofy CBC thing on him, at a presentation, and learned that Bob Dobbs was his adjuvant (but that wasn't the word that was used by the accolyte), and it all started to fall in place -- not! ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:57:08 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Concept of Dimension in Synergetics oops, sorry; I'm catching-up on this stuff, but this's enough for today. to continue, I see that Tagdi'd said, "tetroctajsdfkl", not tetrassociative; sorry. anyway, everybody, including Buckminster, used idealized planar surfaces etc., because "continuity" (and infinity etc.) are co-essential to finity (or discreteness etc.) ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:32:55 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Kirby on Earth and a poem >Illich's analysis of our modern (...) transportation system. > >As I recall it, based on statistics available to him at the time, >he added up the annual number of miles Americans >travelled by car . > >He then divided that total number of hours by the estimated >annual number of hours everyone in the United States spent >driving their cars (and waiting for the lights to change), the >time spent working to earn the money to pay for their cars, >the gas, the insurance, the repairs, the hospital bills for >injuries, the time spent building the roads, building the cars, >repairing the roads, etc. etc. In other words, he added up all >the hours spent annually by Americans on the automobile >and its infrastructure. > >When he divided the annual number of miles travelled by >Americans by the number of hours spent in and on their cars >he found that the result was, I think, about 5 miles per hour. > >About the speed of walking. > this way of looking might seem irrational but does it not seem so. if you observe people in the city inspite of there business going and coming they seem to be in the psychology of 5 miles per hour mood, let us have a drink in inertia(let us recall our Newton memories). i was talking with Nick Pine about the artist way of looking i think this calculation is an example, it feels sort of intutive grasp of society as whole. i send my so called poem here. the name is Einesten Face In Out Clopping doors steps on stairs then a window shut we sat four by a brown table a train in last moment wish overlap crossed the present discontinous leaving behind acustic quitness that began to mingle with Chopin scales a small rock from Iceland wine from south africa ideas and numbers stuttered to tringle in curves frezed by Siberia high images some vivid some pent shades of past of resent of future of Young quantum colour wheee els tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:51:10 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Newsgroups/Mailing Lists Most people will >subscribe to both (like me). And it is annoying to see the same post >twice. Moreover GEODESIC has complete logging (synergetics-l is only >logged informally by myself (not 100% reliable) and others). i though there are only 30 people subscribed to synergetic-l. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:33:27 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: ETHANOL vs Methane >James, you completely ignored Z) >biomass, just because of your little tiff >with the Pillsbury Doughboy (Dwayne Andreas) !! Who? Neither my mind (limited and spotty archive) nor the supercollider (100% anal-retentive backups) recall the name. Brian, please explain (via e-mail, rather than in public), as I have no time for "tiffs" with anyone, but if someone has a problem, I would like the opportunity to resolve it. As for "biomass" itself, the 1,234 messages prior to mine addressed the subject of "Methane", so I presumed that we all had beaten that horse well into a bloody pulp long before I posted my personal opinion on the overall status of options for the replacement of oil/coal/gas. I Live In The Garden Of Weed'n james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 18:35:22 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Concept of Dimension in Synergetics Brian Hutchings wrote: >everybody, including Buckminster, used idealized planar surfaces etc., >because "continuity" (and infinity etc.) are co-essential to finity (or >discreteness etc.) > >----- >A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where >F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five) [NOT -- KU] >----- >On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com Brian -- I disagree. In numerous passages Fuller talks about how his surfaces are permeable (i.e. not continuous) in synergetics. We're talking meshworks (edge/vertex assemblies) of various frequency. By the same token, we don't need 'infinity' because we don't have 'infinite frequency' (i.e. 'continuous'). Nature provides planar surfaces of metal and wood that are at the same time non-continuous (mostly space). Rather than idealize to some Platonic version of same, Fuller incorporated nature's instances directly into synergetics as has 'ideal' templates, such that even the generalized versions are discontinuous in pure principle. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 14:49:58 -0500 Reply-To: WHrton8 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WHrton8 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Announcement GPS Web-based Discussion List I tried it and it worked. Maybe you got a bad ggrweb hair day. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:51:37 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: ST.JOHN DIVINE EVENT really, Denis -- but when is it going to escape from the confimes of Out East (or just Greater New Yawk) ??... I guess that it was meant that the "reception"& keynotes was over, but there might be some unedited video, audio & notes! ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:55:46 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Kirby on Earth, James on Fire, Denis in his Car oh, come on, Denis -- it's the journey, not the destination! ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 10:49:53 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: "Synergetic" gifs, jpegs - UPDATE Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com A question has been asked in regards to "rendering" objects and images for the book-cover. I do not expect anyone to "render" or otherwise go to a great deal of effort. The THING is the thing!! Rendering and such will be dealt with AFTER a shape is selected. If required, your image will be converted from the gif/jpeg "raster" image to a vectorized wireframe, and rendered by professionals. Artists who wish to retain "control" over their work can do any rendering, but this would only be requested AFTER specific interest is expressed in a specific shape. I Live In The Garden Of Weed'n james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 14:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Subject: EcoVillage There is a short article which might be of interest to this group in the January 1996 POPULAR SCIENCE magazine. It's called "The Village Green" and is about EcoVillage, a development in Ithaca, NY (not far from me) which has taken the care of the environment seriously in all of the materials used, the development of the site, even the toilets selected. The community will have a shared heating system as well as common dining facilities, community child care and laundry facilities, and even a shared "home" office. The community also has shared greenspace. Looks like they're building a mini Garden City in Ithaca. I'll check it out some time and let you know what it looks like. - Marcia Marcia Blackburn bd81064@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 19:16:52 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: ENERGY Dave, would it be that it were so complex. I don't know where you live, but have you heard of the Redondo Seep? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 20:01:39 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: mail failed, returning to sender (oops) ------ Forwarded Message ------ >From vm2!MAILER-DAEMON Fri Dec 8 00:34:19 1995 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 00:16 PST From: To: pro-palmtree!brihut Subject: mail failed, returning to sender |------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------| ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu!geodesic. ... transport inet_zone_smtp: 501 Syntax Error. Invalid Local Part of Address |------------------------- Message text follows: ------------------------| Received: from pro-palmtree by vm2.cts.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0tNxyc-0000BMC; Fri, 8 Dec 95 00:16 PST Received: by pro-palmtree.cts.com (sendmail 3.0 4mar94) id ; Thu, 7 Dec 95 12:52 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 10:18:12 PST From: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Brian Hutchings) X-Mailer: ProLine Mail 3.0 To: geodesic.@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: Re: Fw: Re: WEALTH AS ENERGY HOW TO BECOM A MILLIONIARE wow, that diesel heater/generator is really cool -- I'm going to move to the Arctic Circle, just to get one ... near Prudhoe Bay, opf course!... anyway, what is the 800# box made of; heat-retaining, massive brickwork?... that'd seem to lengthen the duty-cycles, and the rests between'em; eh? please, send access info! ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ---- End Forwarded Message ---- ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 20:04:49 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: mail failed, returning to sender (ouch--oops) ------ Forwarded Message ------ >From vm2!MAILER-DAEMON Fri Dec 8 00:34:20 1995 Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 00:17 PST From: To: pro-palmtree!brihut Subject: mail failed, returning to sender |------------------------- Message log follows: -------------------------| no valid recipients were found for this message |------------------------- Failed addresses follow: ---------------------| ebvm.cc.buffalo.edu!geodesic ... unknown host |------------------------- Message text follows: ------------------------| Received: from pro-palmtree by vm2.cts.com with uucp (Smail3.1.29.1 #5) id m0tNxzo-00006UC; Fri, 8 Dec 95 00:17 PST Received: by pro-palmtree.cts.com (sendmail 3.0 4mar94) id ; Thu, 7 Dec 95 12:53 PST Message-Id: Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 12:26:33 PST From: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com (Brian Hutchings) X-Mailer: ProLine Mail 3.0 To: geodesic@ebvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: Re: On Virtualizing Government: A Design Science Approach what?... they have more computers than anyone. Steve Jobs said that, when he was interviewed in MicroTimes, the CIA was there biggest cust. for those NeXTstations to build "mission-critical apps", but they're at the top o'the heap in terms of the latest gizmoes -- not everyone has hte latest browser!... in the meantime, a lot of this stuff isn't online, or not publically, like Susan Harris thought that a provision in some -now-considered (and hopefully shelved for Xmas) anti-terrorism legislation, to make it a beeg crime to un/knowingly support or speak for Those Groups --They know Who They are--, esp.financially, but the CIA & GAO etc.or whatever say that these are nil, compared to state-supported stuff (it goes largely unsaid) ... so, Susan determined that it was intended for food supplements, because the drug cos.have already mandated, through Codex Alimentarius, that they be regulated as drugs!... well, personally, I don't take vitamins, esp.mega-ones, as I suspect that it's a lot like self-administered hormone-therapy -- like, I really want to grow an extra head ... well, maybe! Perot was absolutely correct about NAFTA & GATT, because he was busy taking advantage of'em in Mexico & abroad, as is his right as a bidnessman, while he was attacking them. ----- A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture: F^+(2^N) + F^-(2^N) is prime, where F is the golden mean and N is 0,1,2... (it works for the first five .-) ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ---- End Forwarded Message ---- ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 21:14:26 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Synergetic Atomic Model wait a minute -- vector-edged tensegrity spheres?... just where does the tensegrity part have to used in the description, as I didn't see much but pure, crystalline "solids" a-touching?... or, as you got 16 of som thing around 16 of some other thing -- triacontah.and dodecah., both rhombival? -- I meant, around one of the other thing -- are some interpenetrating in orgiastic whatever?... and why can't a pentag.dodecah."blow-out" to a sphere, or did you say ... well, nevermind!... I wonder if the folks on synergetics-l had a fun time with that posting, Sam, if they found it. it's not that it's Greek to me, though! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:03:44 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: request hello anyone have the email adres of the man who have brough the discussion over race, after Kirby have sent his essay. i think he has unsubscribed, i would like to send him an apology, he might have misunderstood what i meant. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:25:15 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: chemical data the Daniell cell Zn Cu rods in ZnSo4 Cu-O4 1.10 volt differnce of the seprate electrode potential of zin and copper electrochemical series ,difference between metalic terminals is easy to measure, H electrode chosen as zero lithium + 2.96 potasium 2.92 sodium 2.71 barium 2.8 srotnium 2.7 calcium 2.6 alumanium 1.7 magnizium 1.55 manganis 1.08 zinc .96 so the difference is around 3 to 1 volt i have no idea why i am sending this may some one give some other relations. increase of 10 c degrees will generally double or trible speed of reaction. denotation is rapid decomposition in which the T and P are extremely high and which spread therough the mediam with speed of sound. Enzymes important class ofcatalysts ptyalin of salvia converts starch into sugur enzyme of the yeast plant converts certain sugures into alcohol and carbon dioxide. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:26:59 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: games all games are special cases of generalized principles. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:32:58 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: some information Illuminating large spaces in building from atriume to factory floors costs some 8 billion dollars in the U.S small glass spher filled with mixture of sulfur and argon bombarded by microwaves can light a whole floor with very low cost the technology is available it may take time to be used flagship is a ship that carries the commander of a fleet or squadron. end of 60's metals ccounted for 10% of the value of world trade minerals total was 56b$ in 1967 that include oil tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:43:58 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: T.V In 1978-79 the big channels drew 91%of prime time audiance 18 channels in 1985 drew 77% 30 channels in 1991 drew 63% rate is % of watchers of program such as cheers to total population. the T.V companies sell 70% of their prime time during june, shortly after the network announce their scheduals, to the following fall - at discount - guaranted # of viewers 1950 T.v was only in large metropolitan areas. by 1960s every American house have a Televison. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 10:08:58 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gil Friend Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) At 12:32 AM 12/6/95, Kirby Urner wrote: > >Wonder if this prof lists Fuller, Buckminster R. >in his index, for his No Race, No Class essay etc. >My guess is not -- but I'd like to be wrong about >that. Kirby: I really appreciate your comments about race (and the race to find significance in "race"). Sure we all look different. But as Gregory Bateson would have asked, "what is the difference that makes a difference?" Or as I would ask, what are the characteristics of a person that tell you something about that person? I'd define "racist" a bit differently than you did: someone who draws inappropriate conclusions from another persons skin color, ethnic lineage etc. Jusging people by their skin color makes about as much sense as judging them by their eye color. That being said, where can I find Bucky's No Race, No Class essay? I'm not familiar with it. Thanks, Gil ***************************************************************** * Gil Friend * Tel: 1-510-548-7904 * * Gil Friend & Associates * Fax: 1-510-849-2341 * * 48 Shattuck Square #103 * Net: gfriend@eco-ops.com * * Berkeley CA 94704 * http://www.eco-ops.com/eco-ops * ***************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 15:36:17 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) In-Reply-To: ; from "Gil Friend" at Dec 10, 95 10:08 am Gil Friend writes: > That being said, where can I find Bucky's No Race, No Class essay? I'm not > familiar with it. > ***************************************************************** > * Gil Friend * Tel: 1-510-548-7904 * > * Gil Friend & Associates * Fax: 1-510-849-2341 * > * 48 Shattuck Square #103 * Net: gfriend@eco-ops.com * > * Berkeley CA 94704 * http://www.eco-ops.com/eco-ops * > ***************************************************************** See 'World' magazine dated 8-1-72 on pages ??. The article is entitled "No Race--No Class" by R.Buckminster Fuller. Not sure if the article was reprinted in one of his books. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 15:59:25 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) In-Reply-To: <9512101536.aa02163@inside.cruzio.com>; from "Joe Moore" at Dec 10, 95 3:36 pm Joe Moore writes: > Gil Friend writes: > > That being said, where can I find Bucky's No Race, No Class essay? I'm not > > familiar with it. > > ***************************************************************** > > * Gil Friend * Tel: 1-510-548-7904 * > > * Gil Friend & Associates * Fax: 1-510-849-2341 * > > * 48 Shattuck Square #103 * Net: gfriend@eco-ops.com * > > * Berkeley CA 94704 * http://www.eco-ops.com/eco-ops * > > ***************************************************************** > See 'World' magazine dated 8-1-72 on pages ??. The article is entitled "No > Race--No Class" by R.Buckminster Fuller. Not sure if the article was > reprinted in one of his books. > > JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 See also 'Inventory of World Resources, Human Trends & Needs: Document 1--The World Game' by RBF, pages 166-7. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:28:47 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: email-a letter In Message Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:32:29 -0800 (PST), Karl Erickson writes: >> my question about your idea of learning -can you give an actual example >> or two. i have another small request but i leave it to latter. >> thanks > >i've been thinking about this for the last week - been kind of busy, sorry >about the delay - and i think the idea of things being relevant to one >another takes place quite a bit strictly at the personal level. most of the >examples that i've come up with are ones that probably aren't relevant to >other people. i'm an aspiring science fiction writer, so quite frequently >things i see or read give me ideas for stories. > >i'm constantly curious about things, and keep many questions moving around >in my mind, so whenever i hear something that might be relevant to a >question, i tend to remember it. >for example, what is time? the fact that counting is directional reminds me >of time, so i think that maybe time is related, or perhaps is the same as, >counting. it would have a beginning at zero, or nothingness. the 'big >bang' would be nothing more than the inherent succession of numbers >following zero. > >what is gravity? gerald has created a structure with his new struck program >that shows us a piece of what he calls 'icosaspace', which is space-filling, >irregular tetrahedra. you'll remember that regular tets cannot fill space, >so the tets have to be distorted. the tet at the center of 'icosaspace' is >the smallest, and they get larger the further from the center they are. >this reminds me of gravity in that at the center of a mass, things are >compacted the most. > >i tend to remember various details of questions that interest me, and >whenever i notice details of something else that seem similar, the >association is automatic, and i tend to remember the connection. the >connection doesn't necessarily mean anything - most often i end up asking >even more questions, and making even more speculations. this is how i let >my knowledge grow - letting everything connect to everything else, and >remembering everything only by following the connections. if a piece of >information isn't connected, i usually won't remember it until i can find a >connection. if i think that maybe i'll eventually find a connection, i >write the information down so i can find it again later. > >i hope this helps. > >-k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Dec 1995 11:00:47 GMT Reply-To: Lawrence@lawrodon.demon.co.uk Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lawrence O'Donnell Organization: None Subject: ***UK question**** Any successful domestic geodesic/dome/zome projects over here? Hi kids Enthusiast who discovered domes in 60's -now wants to renew affaire in 90's with self-build of kit/design on homestead in Western Isles (Scotland) aim- self-sufficient semi-retired crofting lifestyle anyone have info on successful projects in UK & info sources? -- Lawrence ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 16:41:34 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The (non)Concept of Newsgroups/Mailing Lists tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL wrote: > Most people will >>subscribe to both (like me). And it is annoying to see the same post >>twice. Moreover GEODESIC has complete logging (synergetics-l is only >>logged informally by myself (not 100% reliable) and others). > > i though there are only 30 people subscribed to synergetic-l. > Tagdi First, what got this thread unwinding was my suggestion that Mr. Davis had cross-posted, because he was clearly replying to something not yet visible in the newsgroup version of geodesic. James, author of the invisible post, apologized if he was missposting. I replied to James via email, that he wasn't missposting at all, just that there is an evident lag time between when one emails to GEODESIC, and when the newsgroup mirror picks it up. Davis, in the meantime, has been begging for info about how to unsubscribe, claiming he is innocent of cross-posting ever in his life (and I *believe* the poor slob) -- hope he's RIP (off the list) by now, with Joe Moore's help. Chris was clearest when he said: geodesic@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu = bit.listserv.geodesic That's correct: the newsgroup 'mirrors' the email list. Joe, not true one has to be a member (subscriber) to the email list to post to it. I'm in a newsreader now, writing a post to bit.listserv.geodesic. I am not a subscriber. I resigned as a subscriber almost a year ago when the soldier in Korea couldn't get off the list. That incident drove home that we've never heard from a real human owner of this list: there's nobody home. Seems a not good situation for an email list, though Joe Moore does an excellent job of acting as an owner (without the power to unsubscribe people who are physically unable to do so, for various reasons). About the same time I resigned from 'geodesic' (no great sacrifice -- newsgroup access is more convenient, and obviously I am able to be quite active here), I set up SYNERGETICS-L. The content over there is much more technical, for example these days it is focusing around a tensegrity software tool the requires Windows, called 'Struck' by its author Gerald de Jong, and downloadable for free via my website or using ftp (more info on request). What adds to the confusion, a bit, are Brian Hutchings' posts. Some of you getting feed from both GEODESIC and SYNERGETICS-L may think he's cross-posting, but he's not. Just that his ENIAC-age email reader apparently scrolls by in a non-reversible format, so he loses sight of the header and then has to guess where the post came from, where to direct his reply. His hit rate is about 50%. A final technical note: GEODESIC, aside from having a newsgroup mirror, which most email lists do not, is implemented in LISTSERV, the grandaddy list server software with implements searchable archives. SYNERGETICS-L is implemented in Majordomo, a more recent software list management program out of Chicago, which many internet service providers find easier to manage, and turn over to list-owner submanagers such as myself. Majordomo has no real archiving (just some add-ons, unavailable at my site), so enterprising arhivists like Chris and Kiyoshi will be in a position to sell their collections for big bucks when synergetics becomes the hot topic (or maybe their great grand kids'll have the privilege). Majordomo is still evolving. Thanks to the newest version, I believe I'll soon be able to offer a Digest version of SYNERGETICS-L, meaning subscribers can opt to get all posts lumped together in a single email, delivered weekly or on some other schedule. Yours, Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 03:59:34 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity In article <199512051450.GAA20098@vifa1.freenet.victoria.bc.ca>, ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca wrote: (Edited by Bill Paton) > The Warning document posits that the Earth's " ability to > provide food and energy is finite. Its ability to provide for > growing numbers of people is finite. And we are fast > approaching many of the earth's limits". Bucky disputed > this. > > He pointed out there is more than enough food, energy, > resources and human know-how to take care of everyone > living now and in the foreseeable future, and at a much > higher standard of living than is currently available. He > maintained that this could be accomplished without > polluting the Earth or compromising peoples' freedoms. > > And he said that what is lacking is the popular knowledge > of this option and will to implement it. > > The Warning rightly points out some of the dangerous side > effects of the economic game: the misplaced resources we > call pollution, and the insensitivity to poverty, conservation > and biological diversity. But then it proceeds to assume the > resource scarcity paradigm, which as Fuller pointed out is > the basis for the economic systems that got us into this mess > in the first place. > > > There are big problems to confront in our goal of making a > success of humanity on Spaceship Earth. The Warning > issued by the Union of Concerned Scientists falls far short > of providing adequate analysis of and solutions to these > problems. > I agree with you in many points. I think that the Scientists are falling into one of the great traps that we all fall into: that of trying to " strike fear into the hearts of mere mortals". By making us afraid of the coming hordes, they create a negative approach so that all we do are against the poor and think, Too bad, but better them than me. Bucky's approach is truly workable, especially when he pointed out that in rich countries, the population growth can reach zero, which increases the stability. However, I posted it to show more about the environmental reasons that we have to be concerned. Things like the Ozone layer losses (which I believe to be creating problems such as the hurricanes we are experiencing now) are so serious, yet we are denying that cars and the like are causing any problems. It may be too late when we finally admit the truth to ourselves. I believe things like the internet, which are non-advertiser based (largely) can allow people to share ideas, concepts and solutions in a very successful manner. Bill ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:59:08 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dave suwala Subject: Re: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) My earlier quote was: >>I'm afraid that as good as our current government appears (Clinton >>in his peace-making role, Gingrich in his budget-balancing role) >>the environment that we all live within spirals down to a low >>gravy anyway. Which was responded to by: On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com >I'm sorry, but Gingrich and his Conservative Revolutionaries' >ideal of "balancing" the budget is as specious an accounting-trick >as is possible. It is very clear from my earlier statement that I was as much "tongue in my cheek" about Mr. Gingrich's budget balancing act as I was about Mr. Clinton's peace-making act. I certainly uncovered an outspoken liberal (painfully and thankfully in the minority these days, especially in the Congress) here with your comment: >his use of Toffler's 3rd Wave crappola is also indicative of his >psispace, but it may not've been irreversibly harmed by his >pedastriac pedagog, the geometry teacher -- remember, "high-school >dating" as an issue?... I don't know if >there waf any finifter intent, or juft ftupid, but >"Konservativ Revolutionaries" was the name of a political grouping >that supported everyone's favorite lone-nut of WW2, Adolph, >a movement, if you will, of "fiscal conservatives".... which leads >me to ask, What in Hell is a "Reichhold.com" ?!? Your critical comments start without capitalization and quickly degenerate into some emotionally heated words like crappola, pedastiac pedagog (which I presume meant pedestrian pedagogue). Then comes a colonial English phrase (with fs instead of ss)..."waf any finifter intent, or juft ftupid" which perhaps was meant to soften the following hyper-leftist comments. What does Adolph (I suppose you mean Hitler, whom I don't love any more than you do) have to do with anything in 1995. Which leads me to ask, "What in Hell is a A Fermatio-Gaussian Conjecture?!?" And What in Hell is the pseudo-New Age psispace stuff?!? Cool it, Flamer. Dave.Suwala@Reichhold.Com Reichhold is a successful corporation in this Republican Democracy of the United States of America. My comments are my own. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 23:08:36 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Teaching this might be good idea for teaching synergetics by starting by building first icosa then high frequency icos say f2, or f3 then to try to build a tetrahedron of high f inside so the idea is to start complex and go simple after the icos one can build either 4 frequenct tetrahedron or 8 frequency one. then one can go to midle of edge of the f tetra and get octa, then midle again to go to VE.(that is for 4 f tetra) as for 8 f tetra one can do the same but then when one get to the Ve which is 2 unit lenght one can get the rombic dodechedron. so the whole system in one hour. the second part i have not got yet into, i think it includes the VE which is inside the cube p.s i tried to build 8 f tetra but finding it take a lot of tringuling, i decided to just connect the first 8 tringles so i got queen crown and then i started to add tringles on the top till i close the system which looks like distorted dome. this is a new shape for art, and probably used by nature to to make distorted watermelons bumkins, lemons, or a king hat. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 23:18:54 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Multiplication by division A quatation from Amy C. Edmondson "To understand Universe, Fuller argued, we must think in terms of the synergetic principles governing the relationship of parts to whole systems. Multiplication by division is one of many exercises to enourge the development of habitual orientation toward solving problems in context. If our early mathematics training encourages us to isolate and consider parts separately, rather than as components of a larger system, then, Fuller thought, our natural inclination throughout life would be to view problems myopically. In Fuller's view, we have been blinded to a whole family of rational order by an initial (90-degree) wrong turn- itself result of humanity's early preception of an up- down platform Earth" Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 04:07:08 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Land Mine Detector I would be interested in anyone who has any ideas for inventing a very simple and cheap device for detecting land mines. I have read that there are as many as 50,000 people killed per year because of land mines. The technology is out there, all that is required is making a cheap and simple one. I believe the new radar on a computer chip (as seen in Popular Science and Beyond 2000) could be part of the solution, but perhaps a magnetic stud sensor type approach could work as well. I would like to see them affordable to anyone who is in a land mine type environment. Another approach would be a mine destroyer that could work like a threshing machine. Any ideas or people interested can contact me at bpaton@inforamp.net Cheers, Bill ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:14:08 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Markowski Organization: University of Delaware, Newark Subject: Re: Land Mine Detector In article , bill paton wrote: >I would be interested in anyone who has any ideas for inventing a very >simple and cheap device for detecting land mines. I have read that there >are as many as 50,000 people killed per year because of land mines. The >technology is out there, all that is required is making a cheap and simple >one. I work for the US army (till I'm out of grad school anyway), and the building I work in is having an extension added. The base I'm on has been in operation since 1917, and records of what has been shot/dropped/ buried/etc are, let's say, less than complete. Anyway, in the past 4 or 5 weeks, while preparing to lay the foundation for the extension, 506 undetonated rounds have been uncovered so far! :-0 This is in the area I daily trot from one building to the next. Yikes. I use the sidewalks now. Also, these rounds have all been found in an area of less than one acre. Anyway, the only point I have to this is that the big problem the demolitions squads are having is that once discovered and detonated, the rounds' shrapnel sets off the detectors during later searches slowing things down. And there are loads of these things. The trick is to differentiate between live rounds and "worthless" shrapnel and other doo-dads in the dirt. And that's some trick currently. At the moment, the stumbling block seems to be the amount of time a sweep takes rather than technology being used. How to effectively sweep a larger area at least as cheaply? Or somehow detonate them all in a given area? That would prevent future suffering for thousands of families around the world, especially in southeast Asia. (I know I didn't answer the question but hope this extra morsel of info might inspire some ideas elsewhere. Anybody know the specifics of landmine design? My area is radio communications.) Mike -- Mike Markowski http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~markowsk/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 02:27:10 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) Gil Friend wrote: >I really appreciate your comments about race (and the race to find >significance in "race"). Sure we all look different. But as Gregory Bateson >would have asked, "what is the difference that makes a difference?" Or as I >would ask, what are the characteristics of a person that tell you something >about that person? I'd define "racist" a bit differently than you did: >someone who draws inappropriate conclusions from another persons skin >color, ethnic lineage etc. Jusging people by their skin color makes about >as much sense as judging them by their eye color. I'm sticking to 'Racist = someone who believes in Races' because its pithy and because it pushes buttons and starts debates, and because its pretty accurate -- its the very concept of Race itself, not just the judgements we make on the basis of Race, which deserves some serious 'deconstruction' (as they say). > >That being said, where can I find Bucky's No Race, No Class essay? I'm not >familiar with it. Maybe Joe Moore can tell us? Some of the content is recapitulated in Critical Path. I have a memory of reading the essay, but I couldn't put my hands on it just now. It exists, is all I can say with assurance. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:14:02 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) >I'm sticking to >'Racist = someone who >believes in Races' > >because its pithy and >because it pushes buttons >and starts debates, >and because its pretty accurate -- > >its the very concept of Race itself, >not just the judgements we make > on the basis of Race, >which deserves some >serious 'deconstruction' >(as they say). K this is very economical and nice stanzas. becuse they took advantage of my disadvantage. the darkest skin can be found in the african savana and not in the equator, the mangulian facial feature is flatend becuse of sever wether condition. >>That being said, where can I find Bucky's No Race, No Class essay? I'm not >>familiar with it. 2 pages or so in synergetics, 2 pages in critical path bring the idea of Vitamin D poisening if extra altrviolt light seeps through hence the dark malanin pigment. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:15:17 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Land Mine Detector >Subject: RE: Land Mine Detector > >i think i saw an article either in New Scientest or Scientific America >check the last 5 issues. >these two magazines and nature bring a lot of relevent large pattren >issues, it would be interesting to hock them togther. >Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:18:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Land Mine Detector >I would be interested in anyone who has any ideas for inventing a very >simple and cheap device for detecting land mines.... A simple and free method exists. Toss a rock. Toss another. Keep tossing rocks 'till one hits a mine. The mine explodes, and no one gets hurt... Seriously, the problem is not the cost or the accuracy of hardware. The problem is training people in the defusing and removal of mines. Needless to say, this is not a skill for which everyone shows natural talent, nor is it the sort of skill that one wishes to teach to those who show no initial talent. The creation of a simple, cheap "3rd-world bomb detector" would be a very very poor concept, since this would tend to encourage the planters of mines to plant more. If such a device would be invented, it would be issued to all foot soldiers, thus starting an "arms race", where mines would be invented to be "invisible" to the detector, and so on. Regardless, the civilians would suffer to the same extent as they do now, if not more. I therefore do not suggest that anyone work on such a design, and I myself would do everything in my power to prevent the release of any classified information that might aid such a design process. I would suggest that it is the obligation of the arms-exporting countries (the US included) to remove any and all mines made by each country at the close of each conflict. Since one does not want the bomb-defusal process to be slowed by squabbles over brand names, this could be done by keeping records and crediting each other's "accounts" quarterly. This would raise the cost of mines to the point where they would be scattered at random less often. I Live In The Garden Of Weed'n james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:34:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: subscribe bit.listserv.geodesic subscribe bit.listserv.geodesic Bill Paton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 22:06:40 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Land Mine Detector james> > The creation of a simple, cheap "3rd-world bomb detector" would be > a very very poor concept, since this would tend to encourage the > planters of mines to plant more. If such a device would be invented, > it would be issued to all foot soldiers, thus starting an "arms race", > where mines would be invented to be "invisible" to the detector, and > so on. Regardless, the civilians would suffer to the same extent as > they do now, if not more. tagdi i read somewhere that they have designed a robot which can find hidden mines. ignorant about importance of mine in war, how much of the war depends on mines; would mines finding equipment lead to arm race, how. the Gulf war was predimonintly air to ground war. i saw in your wep site the janet link( is that correct spelling) where they show detailed information about arms in south East Asia, i mention this in relation to what Kirby have wrote about the need to write an account of all kind of weapon, who is selling and buying, cost ect ( including coorporations and countries), what i had in mind is virtual show piece where this sort of information is shown, or is that dangerous. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:51:52 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Markowski Organization: University of Delaware, Newark Subject: UN web links I thought these links might be interesting to some of us: United Nations Headquarters United Nations Office at Vienna United Nations Office at Geneva UNICC The info I've found there isn't extremely detailed, but it provides good starting points. Mike -- Mike Markowski http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~markowsk/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:33:32 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: LORETTA LORANCE Subject: Re: ARTIFACTS OF RBF Marcia Blackburn sent a message that Garland Press sells THE ARTIFACTS OF RBF for $50, but Garland told me they are $120 each. How can I get them for $50? Loretta llorance@email.gc.cuny.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 01:18:03 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Larry Mintz <103227.1212@COMPUSERVE.COM> Organization: Geodesic Software Subject: Synergia Synergia consists of 3 modules. [1] The hypertext version of the Operating Manual For Spaceship For MS Windows. 1.Each chapter in a seperate window 2. Can read more than one chapter at once. 3.New material added to the book 4. Can access a modem and MS Notebook from the main menu [2] dbClient Manager Adrress book for Window. [3] Database Diary -Electronic diary for Windows. All software can accessed from the main menu in the Operating Manual of Spaceship Earth. Software comes with a spiffy manual. Requirements: 386/40 CPU or greater 10 megs of hard disk space;4 Megs Ram If you wish to purchase a copy .Send Cash cheque or MO to ATTN: Larry Mintz Geodesic Software 6625 Mackle Road #604 Montreal,Que H4W 2Z8 -- Larry Mintz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 01:23:29 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Larry Mintz <103227.1212@COMPUSERVE.COM> Organization: Geodesic Software Subject: Synergia This is in responce to the previous ad for Synergia. The cost of the software is $50 US. Forgot to mention it. -- Larry Mintz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:50:01 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) [Kirby says that we're unmomitored & can flame to our heart's content! actually, I thought that Kuromoyasan was in charge; no?] Dave, I'm supposed to be hyperliberal?... "pedastriac" refers to Newt's highschool pedagog of geometry, not feet -- unless she had that "fetish" (sounds perfectly normal, to me .-)... I'm serious about the Conservative Revs, though; they have a lot of the same motivations as the Confederacy did. and, on the wayside, do you really believe that Hitler was a lone-nut (we won't get in to recent assassinations, though; politics is part of Bucky's "tuned-out Universe") ?? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:26:07 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity hm, you must have that reversed; wouldn't the increase of huuricanes (and other weather in general, viz, the pole-to-equator temperature-differential) cause greater changes in the ozonosphere?... after all, the "hole" is really just the night/wintertime circumpolar vortex, in the main, but ol'Farman soft-peddles the seasonal aspect! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:26:36 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: L.Kirby In Message Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:52:13 +0100, Mail Delivery Subsystem writes: >Hello Kirby >sorry the T.V station i was talking about was NBC with this >funny guy Jay Lenen or somthing. they have changed the content of >the programes so it is not the same as it is in the U.S. >you have this woman named Sylina which intreviews stars and >rich people, she is a bit tentalizing. the news is by the same >people as in the U.S. >i am not good at the standard way of knowing the culture >when i was in the U.S in the first year i must had a complete >brain shower, it takes growing out there to know the order of >it. >best wishes >Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 06:25:05 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) In-Reply-To: <30cce753.3866878@news.teleport.com>; from "Kirby Urner" at Dec 12, 95 2:27 am Kirby Urner writes: > > > >That being said, where can I find Bucky's No Race, No Class essay? I'm not > >familiar with it. > > Maybe Joe Moore can tell us? Some of the content is recapitulated in > Critical Path. I have a memory of reading the essay, but I couldn't put > my hands on it just now. It exists, is all I can say with assurance. > > -------------------------------------------------------- > Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU > Email: pdx4d@teleport.com > Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ See WORLD magazine of Aug 1972, pages ?? and 'Inventory of World Resources, Human Trends and Needs', pages 166-7. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:24:56 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: subscribe bit.listserv.geodesic In-Reply-To: <199512121434.JAA16222@malone.inforamp.net>; from "bill paton" at Dec 12, 95 9:34 am bill paton writes: > subscribe bit.listserv.geodesic Bill Paton Bill, bit.listserv.geodesic is a newsgroup, not a "list". If your provider carries it (only about 1/3 do), then you read it with your news reader like any other news group. Only "lists" (I call them electronic newsletters) can be subscribed to. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:30:21 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Land Mine Detector In-Reply-To: <51321.tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl>; from "tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL" at Dec 12, 95 2:15 pm tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL writes: > >i think i saw an article either in New Scientest or Scientific America > >check the last 5 issues. > >these two magazines and nature bring a lot of relevent large pattren > >issues, it would be interesting to hock them togther. Tagdi, If you spot any articles relevant to the Geodesic group, would you mind posting a short note giving name of mag, date, page, title of article and what it is about? Most of us can't afford to subscribe to NEW SCIENTIST and SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:37:06 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Geoff Armstrong Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity >hm, you must have that reversed; >wouldn't the increase of huuricanes (and other weather in general, viz, >the pole-to-equator temperature-differential) cause greater changes >in the ozonosphere?... after all, >the "hole" is really just the night/wintertime circumpolar vortex, >in the main, but ol'Farman soft-peddles the seasonal aspect! > >----- >"Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": >Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. >----- >On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com If you use the Blue Skies gopher client to access the Groundhog server, there is an excellent explanation of the Ozone layer and other such phenomena. It's written in laymens terms and provides a good antidote to the more sentationalist reports we're likely to get in the media IMO. Geoff Armstrong ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:34:31 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: ARTIFACTS OF RBF In-Reply-To: <01HYQA74CUGI003Y9J@GAUDI.GC.CUNY.EDU>; from "LORETTA LORANCE" at Dec 12, 95 6:33 pm LORETTA LORANCE writes: > Marcia Blackburn sent a message that Garland Press sells THE ARTIFACTS OF > RBF for $50, but Garland told me they are $120 each. > How can I get them for $50? > > Loretta > llorance@email.gc.cuny.edu Free book catalog: Garland Publishing, Inc. 717 5th Ave. New York, NY 10022 212-751-7447 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 21:16:06 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: COSMOGRAPHY _Cosmography_ is available for $6.95 from: Edward R. Hamilton, Bookseller Falls Village, CT 06031-5000 Sorry, don't have a phone number or email address. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 21:41:18 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: syn-l: phi Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com In-Reply-To: <199512140212.AA17638@halcyon.com>; from "Rick Levine" at Dec 13, 95 6:12 pm Rick Levine writes: > >what is phi? (snip) > of years. It is approximately 1.61803... and is called the GOLDEN MEAN or > the DIVINE PROPORTION. Johannes Kepler called it the ratio that God uses "to (snip) > It is connected with the FIBONACCI NUMBER SERIES (which is a discussion unto (snip) > constant that defines the spiral of the Milky Way Galaxy, the number of > petals on a daisy, the number of seeds in a sunflower, and the ratios of > human body measuremnts. It is also in the ratio of the spiriling DNA molecule. (snip) > (to as many decimal places as you want to use!). So it is the integration > between the additive and exponential systems! > > It is also geometrically related to FIVENESS (not four-ness). A pentagon's > diagonals intersect each other producing this ratio, hence all five-sided > planar structures tap into the magic of PHI. (snip) > =#Rick Merlin Levine, Redmond WA ### VOX (206)882-3481 #= > =#=== rlevine@halcyon.com =====### FAX (206)867-1202 #= Any two opposite struts of the icosahedron form a golden rectangle when the ends are connected. See _Order in Space_ by Keith Critchlow (1970), pages 58-9 and 84-5. Also see _A Fuller Explanation_ by Amy Edmondson (1987), pages 166-7. And _Synergetics_ (1), pages 829-32 ("The Icosahedron and the Golden Section"by Arthur Loeb ). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:48:17 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Land Mine Detector "keeping records & creditin each-other's accounts quarterly" ??... good idea, but can you imagine getting such rrrrrrregUlAtion through, past "Republicans" R Them?... maybe, they could use the Congressional Quarterly! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 07:58:06 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dave suwala Subject: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) >I'm serious about the Conservative Revs, though; >they have a lot of the same motivations as the Confederacy did. Interestingly, I was a contributor to the Republican Party during the many decades of Democratic Congressional domination but all along was upset at their (GOPs) cavalier disregard of the environment. It is now the single issue upon which I withhold my support of the GOP. With all of the surveys they pass out to their members, I wonder how they missed that. But, I digress. Now that I am located in the South, I want to know what the "motivations" of the Confederacy. Maybe you could fill me in on that. They were obviously willing to die for those motivations. It might even shed some light on the Balkan conflict where they have been willing to die for centuries for their perceived differences. >do you really believe that Hitler was a lone-nut (we won't get in >to recent assassinations, though; >politics is part of Bucky's "tuned-out Universe") ?? I happen to be a biography maven and have read the events surrounding the rise of Hitler. Lone nut, no. At first, it was him and a small band of disgruntled WWI veterans that shared his sentiments. But, they weren't lonely for long. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 15:45:40 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Kirby on Bosnia (sort of) In Message Thu, 14 Dec 1995 07:58:06 -0500 (EST), dave suwala writes: > Now that I am located in the South, I want to know what the > "motivations" of the Confederacy. Maybe you could fill me in on > that. They were obviously willing to die for those motivations. It > might even shed some light on the Balkan conflict where they have > been willing to die for centuries for their perceived differences. hi Dave you seem to know about how the goverment works, can you if possible explaine in simple way how it works( how the whole and the parts operate). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:39:52 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Markowski Organization: University of Delaware, Newark Subject: Re: Land Mine Detector In article <199512121326.IAA07734@crucible.inmind.com>, > > The creation of a simple, cheap "3rd-world bomb detector" would be > a very very poor concept, since this would tend to encourage the > planters of mines to plant more. If such a device would be invented, > it would be issued to all foot soldiers, thus starting an "arms race", > where mines would be invented to be "invisible" to the detector, and > so on. Regardless, the civilians would suffer to the same extent as > they do now, if not more. New thoughts (from the open literature) on mine design are that timers would automatically detonate them after some period of time. If you happen to be planting next season's crop when the timer goes off though... Other ideas are smart mines that allow the entire field to be switched off to let the "good" guys through, then sitched back on. Detection includes ideas like IR, ground penetrating radar, electrical conductance through soil, etc. So the arms race marches onward even if a little slower than before. Hopefully, by addressing larger, more sensible goals, society will make these dangerous little generals' toys obsolete. > I therefore do not suggest that anyone work on such a design [...] For better or worse, you can bet the militaries of the world spend a load of money working on just such problems. I hope I don't sound too pessimistic. Just gets me down every now & then thinking about these things. Maybe I should go get another cup of coffee, kick back and relax a little. :-) Mike -- Mike Markowski http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~markowsk/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:58:57 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael D. Adkins" Organization: AEPT-SCT-SWS Subject: My Dome Building Experience I built my own 45 ft. 5/8 3 freq Icosahedron dome home in 1985-86. Still live in it and love it. A great floor plan. 3 bedroom, one large 1st floor living room. We extended the 5 extentions out to 8-10 feet each. Made one into a conversation pit with see-thru fireplace between it and the living room. Bought the kit from Geodesic Domes & Homes in Whitehouse, Texas. 90 triangles, 2x6 studs, already decked/beveled & foamed to about R35. It is an all electric home and to date our largest electric bill has been about $120. We also installed a ground water heat pump (a vertical closed loop system), which helps the heat/cooling greatly because of it's efficiency. 3 levels, Custom cabinets, ceramic tile floors/counter tops, all wood pella windows, Velux window wall skylights, 3 levels, about 3900 sq. ft. on 3.5 acres north of Dallas about 40 miles in the country. Fully shingled with comp textured shingles, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 18:25:20 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: My Dome Building Experience In-Reply-To: ; from "Michael D. Adkins" at Dec 14, 95 9:58 pm Michael D. Adkins writes: snip > it and the living room. Bought the kit from Geodesic Domes & Homes in > Whitehouse, Texas. 90 triangles, 2x6 studs, already decked/beveled & snip Is that company still in business? If so, could you post their current address, phone, email address, etc? Thanks. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:15:45 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity what is Blue Skies?... that might be of interest, although I've been studying it for years. I do not believe that manmade CFCs are very significant, except perhaps for the agricultural use of methyl bromide, which is "used" by the soil-life rapidly (and ain't a CFC, exactly .-)... volcanoes are far more significant. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:38:36 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY'S COMPUTER BUCKY'S COMPUTER The March 13, 1989, issue of BUSINESS WEEK magazine has an article entitled "Quantum Effect Chips" by Otis Port (pages 70, 72 & 74) which describes how to build a computer one atom at a time. It mentions research going on at: AT&T Bell Labs USA Center for Quantized Electronic Structures-U.Cal.Santa Barbara USA Electrotechnical Lab Japan IBM's Thomas J. Watson Research Center USA Max Planck Institute Germany MIT USA Motorola USA Nippon Telegraph & Telephone Co. Japan Phillips Netherlands Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute USA Sandia Labs USA Texas Instruments, Inc. USA The newsgroup sci.nanotech keeps track of developments in the field of nanotechnology. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:16:37 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Markowski Organization: University of Delaware, Newark Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) In article <30cce753.3866878@news.teleport.com>, Kirby Urner wrote: > >I'm sticking to >'Racist = someone who >believes in Races' > >because its pithy and >because it pushes buttons >and starts debates, >and because its pretty accurate -- > >its the very concept of Race itself, >not just the judgements we make > on the basis of Race, >which deserves some >serious 'deconstruction' >(as they say). You know, my wife and I talk about this every now & then. As my name indicates, I'm of European descent, and she is from Taiwan. Since people still have not mixed appreciably, you can guess a lot about what we look like just from that. Anyway, it's not that uncommon for us to be stared at or even have unfriendly comments directed our way because we're a so-called "mixed" couple. Our first reactions were emotional; "Idiot racists," etc., though more, um, strongly worded... But what we wonder sometimes is what our reaction says about ourselves. We (meaning typical educated people) often separate racists into the category of "unintelligent, hateful, idiotic," and so on which makes it easy to look down upon them and treat them as less than human. But then who's the bad guy throwing people into categories and treating them worse as a result? Changing Kirby's words a little, is the problem someone who believes in categories?? I'm getting sooo confused... The key, to me, is to not ignore differences or turn them into fences, but to embrace them. Yet I'm unable and I suppose unwilling to consider the reasoning behind comments of "racists." Yes, I'm still confused and unable to heed my own advice. One guy's thoughts, Mike -- Mike Markowski http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~markowsk/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 22:18:23 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Geoff Armstrong Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity >what is Blue Skies?... that might be of interest, although >I've been studying it for years. I do not believe that >manmade CFCs are very significant, except perhaps >for the agricultural use of methyl bromide, which is "used" >by the soil-life rapidly (and ain't a CFC, exactly .-)... >volcanoes are far more significant. > >----- >"Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": >Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. >----- >On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com Blue Skies is simply Gopher Client software like Turbo-Gopher, that gets you to servers which deal with weather and related phenomena. I found the article on the Ozone problem very informative. (BTW this is Mac software. I don't know if there are windows versions). Hope this helps. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:00:27 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity >>what is Blue Skies?... that might be of interest, although >>I've been studying it for years. I do not believe that >>manmade CFCs are very significant, except perhaps >>for the agricultural use of methyl bromide, which is "used" >>by the soil-life rapidly (and ain't a CFC, exactly .-)... >>volcanoes are far more significant. Tagdi you contrdicting the scientiest who say we must control CFCs (Spray cans, and refregeration). * the metal smiters became bankers in 15-16 century. * cyclon is that a hurrican, produces the = of one H bom * in every minute of its existance. 130,000 work in the nuclear arsenal of U.S 5% or more have problem with deprssion drug, alch problems. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 20:41:29 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: HAPPY ORBITAL POINT ZERO HAPPY ORBITAL POINT ZERO By William Gunther Lauritzen Jan 1 is the beginning of the "new year" in the Christian-Roman tradition. The new year actually begins at the winter solstice on Dec 21or 22. This is the shortest day of the year. For six months prior to this day the sun has been getting lower and lower in the horizen (for the Northern hemisphere). The days have been getting shorter and shorter. What a depressing situation for primitive earth mammals (including homo sapian ancesters) to have to face. What a joy is was to them to find that finally on one particular day the sun seemed to halt its disappearance and began to rise again in the sky with the days getting longer and longer. A time for celebration. A new year being born! As it took them several days to determine this accurately the "new year" has lagged behind its actual beginning. In believe that in the United States the clothing industry has managed to totally confuse the public into thinking that this is the first day of winter. They have even managed to get it printed on the calendars. It is actually MID-WINTER. Meanwhile they begin to sell off, in grand sales, all their winter stock as they know that spring is now on its way, not winter. Although on December 25 people celebrate the birth of the Christian messiah, scholars know from various clues in the Christian scriptures that Jesus was not born in the winter. The 25th was probably a celebration of the return of the sun as just discribed. The astute Christians evenually declared that Jesus was born as the sun (son) returned. Orbital Point Zero coincides with the winter soltice, and is actually just a point on the ellipse that the Earth makes as it orbits the home star, what we call the "sun." Orbital Point Zero is a time of celebration for the 90% of humanity that live in the Northern Hemisphere. For the people that live in the Southern Hemisphere it is the day when the the sun begins to disappear. So, if you live in the Northern Hemisphere, and even if you don't, MAY NOTHING CATASTROPHIC INTERFERE WITH YOUR NEXT ORBIT, MAY THE HOME STAR SHINE BRIGHTLY ON YOU, AND MAY YOU ACHIEVE YOUR FONDEST DREAMS!!! HAPPY ORBITAL POINT ZERO!!! (c) Dec 1995 WGL ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:04:45 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Learning to learn comprehensively you need to prepare a puzzel made of the pieces you are looking for. the pieces are significant patterns which the puzzel connect to the whole. anyway you need a week of time to prepare the pieces befor you start reading; warning specialized books can tune you to intriguing details making you forget the large pieces. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:41:23 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gil Friend Subject: Re: Land Mine Detector At 8:18 AM 12/12/95, James Fischer wrote: >>I would be interested in anyone who has any ideas for inventing a very >>simple and cheap device for detecting land mines.... > The creation of a simple, cheap "3rd-world bomb detector" would be > a very very poor concept, since this would tend to encourage the > planters of mines to plant more. If such a device would be invented, > it would be issued to all foot soldiers, thus starting an "arms race", > where mines would be invented to be "invisible" to the detector, and > so on. Regardless, the civilians would suffer to the same extent as > they do now, if not more. > > I would suggest that it is the obligation of the arms-exporting > countries (the US included) to remove any and all mines made by > each country at the close of each conflict. Since one does not Interesting argument, not terribly likely solution, IMHO. In the meantime, there are millions of mines still scattered about, and a substantial industry spewing out millions more, many plastic-cased (cheap, and difficult to detect). - Gil ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 18:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Blaine DAmico Subject: Fullerene special on PBS tomorrow In-Reply-To: Ed Applewhite just called and asked that I post this message. He noticed that our local PBS stations (and we assume other PBS stations around the country) are showing an hour long NOVA special on the serendipitous discovery of Fullerenes. In DC the special will air at 8 pm 12/19 (tomorrow). Check your local listings. Should be a marvelous show (the NOVA specials are generally so well done anyway and the topic is bountiful). I still don't have my news reader working right. Would someone please cross post to synergetics-l? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:18:27 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity tagdi> you're contradicting the scientists who say ... I'm not contradicting'em, the newfound Nobelistes; they're completely dysregarding the ambient data, in submerging'emselves in their little Cyberchemworld. did anyone see a recent letter to Science News, which gave about 4 juicy cites (no websites; sorry) on volcanic sources of terrestrial garbage?... I did. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:33:21 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: HAPPY ORBITAL POINT ZERO {sic} well, as my posts aren't sent til midnight or so, you' may've already gotten a pantload of flaming for your newbie ideas of astronomy, but don't worry -- you can always help with translating those found notebooks of Ramanujan! for all practical purposes, the solstice is, more or less, the 1st day of winter, because of the enormous lagtime of T., due to you-know-what (if you don't, find out !-) perihelion & winter solstice aren't neccesarily co-occurrant, but they might be, now, for all that I know, in which case, you'll get the Cosmic Coincidence Award for being right, every 100KY or so (celebrating the next 100,000 revolutions around that star .-) ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:33:18 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: NOVA'S BUCKYBALLS PROG Comments: cc: Synergetics List For more info re tonight's PBS/NOVA tv prog "Race to Catch a Buckyball" see: http://www.boston.com/wgbh/pages/nova/novabuckyballs.html The 1 hour program airs at 8pm (check local listings). BTW, PBS has a web page at http://www.pbs.org/ -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:46:22 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ron Moss Subject: Re: Fullerene special on PBS tomorrow Can you explain to this newcomer what is the difference between the Geodesic and the Synergetics lists? >Ed Applewhite just called and asked that I post this message. He noticed >that our local PBS stations (and we assume other PBS stations around the >country) are showing an hour long NOVA special on the serendipitous >discovery of Fullerenes. In DC the special will air at 8 pm 12/19 >(tomorrow). Check your local listings. Should be a marvelous show (the >NOVA specials are generally so well done anyway and the topic is bountiful). > >I still don't have my news reader working right. Would someone please >cross post to synergetics-l? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:12:34 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Eric James Morris Subject: Re: Land Mine Detector This appears to be a relevant site to this topic: http://www.fourmilab.ch/minerats/ This area contains documents describing the Minerats project, an attempt to deploy advanced sensor and robotics technology for the detection and removal of anti-personnel mines. Earthball Eric says 'check it out'. We're Spherical Visions, creators of the Earthball- the world's first reality globe, depicting our planet as it appears from space. "Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free... dizzy with eternity. Paint it with a skin of sky, brush in some clouds and sea. Call it home for you and me..." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:16:18 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Fullerene special on PBS tomorrow In-Reply-To: ; from "Ron Moss" at Dec 19, 95 2:46 pm Ron Moss writes: > Can you explain to this newcomer what is the difference between the > Geodesic and the Synergetics lists? The Geodesic list is about Fuller stuff in general. The Synergetics-l list is about Fuller's Synergetics geometry. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 20:28:27 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: HAPPY ORBITAL POINT ZERO {sic} Brian, 1)There is SOME lagtime in temperature but it is not enough in my book to call Dec 21 the first day of winter. This is the MID-winter soltice and I believe it is called that in Britain (at least one book I read calls it that). 2) Of course perihelion and the midwinter solstice are not co-concurrant. I never said they were. I defined "orbital point zero" as the mid-winter solstice. I never mentioned perihelion, never intended to. Perhaps you assumed that orbital point zero was the perihelion, but since I made up that term I would be surprised to find out that it was. I have never heard it referred to as such. WiIliam ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 06:30:49 -0800 Reply-To: ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Denis F. Blue" Subject: Re: Jetstream Trailer James Fischer wrote: " ... any dome is problematic in an earthquake, since the entire rigidity of the structure depends upon the dome being anchored to the earth. In an earthquake, the earth moves, so perhaps the dome deforms or fails (falls down) due to the anchored points being moved relative to each other. Soils can also become rather "liquid" in an earthquake (not my term) so one's foundation can "settle" rather abruptly. I would guess that an "earthquake-proof dome" would have a "floor" of sorts, to provide an independent base. If one did not anchor it to the ground, one would be more earthquake-resistant, but the bad news is that one would then be subject to hurricanes/tornadoes..." ......................................................................................... James is quite right in saying that most geodesic domes rely on the ground upon which they sit for structural stability. This is because PART OF THE DOME IS MISSING. To that extent, most domes are vulnerable to earthquake damage. Other building systems also suffer from this same problem because they also use the ground to supply structural stability. This problem in the geodesic dome can be overcome, again as James points out, by supplying a "floor" of sorts, an "independent base". But a planar floor filling in the circular plane where the dome has been sliced off at the base remains vulnerable to popping in or out. Instead , to provide maximum structural stability for earthquake resistance, I recommend methods by which you avoid cutting off part of the dome for the purpose of providing a flat base upon which to rest the dome on the earth. By retaining a complete spheric you retain the stability of the "omni-triangulation" of a geodesic dome. This can be accomplished in several ways: -using a complete dome and burying the base underground or nestling it within the ground such that it resembles a spherical basement with a circular rim at ground level -elevating the entire dome so that it sits off the ground within a stilts-like framework - 'popping in' the dome so as to maintain its structural integrity while permitting a planar area upon which the dome can sit flat. To model popping in a dome, take a straw and pipecleaner icosahedron and disconnect the five straws coming in to one of the vertices/hubs and push them in towards the centre of the icosahedron. Then reconnect the straws where they meet just slightly past the icosahedron centre. This is the "pentakis cap" according to a recent posting, but I don't know if this is the accepted geometers' lingo or invented for the occasion. This popped-in icosahedron can then be lain on the 'flat' popped-in pentangular ('pentakis cap'?) face. Such a icosahedron is still structurally stable . If you just replace these five popped-in struts with a planar facet (say, by shortening the five popped-in struts such that they meet with the vertex/hub in the centre of the pentangle, so the struts act as the joists for a planar floor) this planar facet will still have a tendency to buckle- to pop - in or out, depending on the compression stresses.(They would, however, continue to supply good tensional strength to the dome base). To avoid having the five popped-in struts of a popped-in icosahedron taking up room in the useable interior of a single icosahedon you can combine two icosahedra and use one as a stilts-like stand , while the other remains a regular convex icosahedron (the basis of most geodesic domes). To build the stand you take a regular icosahedron and pop in one vertex. Then pop in the vertex directly opposite the popped-in vertex. You'll find you have to weave the ten popped-in struts between each other before reconnecting them at two vertices on either side of the icosahedron centre. The result is what I call the "double-popped icosahedron". It too is structurally stable, more stable than the regular icosahedron really, because it is "pre-popped". Lie the double-popped icosahedron on one pentangular facet . The other pentagular facet, parallel to the first but off the ground, is a pretty good raised floor. If another regular icosahedron of the same struts length is added to this base, nestling in to the cavity left by the topmost popped-in volume, you can have a full spheric, a complete space- enclosing icosahedron , complete, save for a very small penetration by the popped-in struts coming up from the bottom of the double-popped icosahedron base upon which the regular icosahedron is nestling. Another way to visualize the kind of system I'm trying to describe here is to take two same-sized straw and pipecleaner icosahedra, pop in one vertex on one of them, and then hold the two icosahedra together such that one of the 'convex' vertices of the regular icosahedron can be nestled in to concavity of the popped-in icosahedron. You'll see that you can join the two together and in doing so remove ten of the struts from, say, the concave icosahedron, because they're structurally redundant when you join the two structures. So now you have two connected icosahedra , one of the two is popped in. Take the vertex on the popped-in icosahedron that is opposite the previously popped in vertex and pop it in too. You'll then have a flat base upon which to sit these two connected icosahedra.One icosahedron is a complete convex spheric, the other is a double-popped icosahedron acting as a structurally stable base for the icosahedron on top. A double-popped icosahedron can be used to connect two regular icosahedra (with the addition of only ten additional struts, because of the aforementioned congruities). A double-popped icosahedron can be built as a tensegrity by replacing the exterior struts with tension members and adding one tension line between the two popped-in vertices. Imaginative alternations of popped-in and -out icosahedra, double-popped icosahedra and combinations thereof can result in all kinds of interesting structures: you can stack icosahedra- geodesic domes- in all kinds of configurations, dome towers (helixes and spirals), tori (doughnut structures built from icosahedra), you name it, all with structural stability. ... A complete spheric geodesic dome is structurally stable so it doesn't require the unreliable earthquake-vulnerable ground for rigidity . To prevent it from flying away in the next hurricane tie it down. -- ### ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 20:44:54 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Planck i just start reading a bit of chimistry, and i find immiditly the formula of planck, one meaning of his formaula is this if you want to change a wave to its equivilant of a photons(particles) you use the formula and vise versa E= h v E (delta) change in energy, h= 6.62x 10 ^-27 erg-sec v is frequency of the radiation. this funny but the unit of the constant contains the swich back and forth so if you have a wave of red you can get it in erges may be this erges thing has somthing to do with unit energy synergetic but only after returning the cube to VE. so my assumtion without having much knowldge is that Planc got his constant by comparing different radiation frequency conversion to energy. any one know anything about how he got the constant. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:52:16 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Fullerene Special Comments: To: Edd Parks In-Reply-To: <199512201504.HAA27617@iceland.it.earthlink.net>; from "Edd Parks" at Dec 20, 95 7:04 am Edd Parks writes: > Thanks for the tip! That special was incredible! The Buckster is one day > going to get his due from all the *intellectuals* who gave him a bad time > during his life. > eddzart@earthlink.net > > The only things worth learning are those you learn after you know it all. > Harry S. Truman You're more than welcome! It was a great show. I noticed it was copyright 1992; I wonder what they have discovered since? -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:09:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: syn-l: Nova show last night Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com In-Reply-To: <0099B26C.16D96D08.21011@nsrl31.nsrl.rochester.edu>; from "Robert W. Gray" at Dec 20, 95 2:01 pm Robert W. Gray writes: > Hey, what about that Nova show last night? > Did anyone catch it? Unfortunately, I only > caught the last 20 minutes. But what I saw > was very interesting. > > Ed Applewhite tells me that they did mention Bucky Fuller. > Anyone care to give a brief summary or other comments? > > Does anyone have the Nova 1-800 ordering number? I think > I'd like to order the tape. "Race to Catch a Buckyball" $19.95 + shipping & handling WGBH P.O.Box 2284 S. Burlington, VT 05407-2284 1-800-255-9424 Shown on NOVA 12-19-95 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:41:47 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Fullerene Special At 12:52 PM 12/20/95 PST, Joe Moore wrote: >You're more than welcome! It was a great show. I noticed it was copyright >1992; I wonder what they have discovered since? > Thanks also Joe. Does anyone know of any manufacturers or data about the "geodesic tube" that was shown on the show? This could be very desirable in conjunction with dome structures, which fascinate me. Does anyone know of software that runs on a PC for playing with domes, etc? Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 20:40:29 GMT Reply-To: Lawrence@lawrodon.demon.co.uk Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lawrence O'Donnell Organization: None Subject: Re: Land Mine Detector I hate to sound brutal here, kids, but from the statistics we seem to already have that "cheap 3rd world detector" on-line & already in the field in great numbers....they are cheap to make & run, highly mobile and VERY efficient at finding mines...... (Guessed yet?) I'll give you a clue..what's small, inquisitive and missing one or more limbs? Isn't this the group dedicated to maximum effect with minimum resources? We make 'em we supply 'em we train 'em STOP MAKING THE @*&ING THINGS! Lawrence ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 19:11:31 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Fullerene Special In-Reply-To: ; from "James McCaig" at Dec 20, 95 5:41 pm James McCaig writes: > Thanks also Joe. Does anyone know of any manufacturers or data about the > "geodesic tube" that was shown on the show? This could be very desirable in > conjunction with dome structures, which fascinate me. See the 12-9-91 issue of BUSINESS WEEK, pages 76-7, for an article entitled "Science's Amazing New Building Blocks". Talks about Buckytubes, etc. > Does anyone know of software that runs on a PC for playing with domes, etc? See Kirby's site for software: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/sw_gall.html > jmccaig@worldweb.net -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 20:05:37 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Planck wrote: > E= h v E (delta) change in energy, h= 6.62x 10 ^-27 erg-sec > > v is frequency of the radiation... >any one know anything about how he got the constant? It just came to him when somebody asked him, "What's new?" To which he replied, "E over h-bar." :-) Nick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:23:14 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Organization: Binghamton University, Binghamton, NY Subject: Re: ARTIFACTS OF RBF In-Reply-To: <01HYQA74CUGI003Y9J@GAUDI.GC.CUNY.EDU> Well, I'm looking at the 1995 Art and Architecture Catalog from Garland that has the Synergetics Dictionary (4 volumes) for $150 and the four volumes of The Artifacts listed for $50 each. I don't see an expiration date on the order form, but maybe it's expired. I think my advisor gave me the info in September of this year. - Marcia On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, LORETTA LORANCE wrote: > Marcia Blackburn sent a message that Garland Press sells THE ARTIFACTS OF > RBF for $50, but Garland told me they are $120 each. > > How can I get them for $50? > > Loretta > llorance@email.gc.cuny.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:19:53 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Planck In Message Wed, 20 Dec 1995 20:05:37 -0500, Nick Pine writes: > wrote: > >> E= h v E (delta) change in energy, h= 6.62x 10 ^-27 erg-sec >> >> v is frequency of the radiation... > >>any one know anything about how he got the constant? > >It just came to him when somebody asked him, "What's new?" > >To which he replied, "E over h-bar." :-) > >Nick are you an engineer or a farmer, by the way all these farmers who have disapeared because of lessmore have joined the food processing and food transportation agribusiness. so next time you see a truck remember that he is a farmer inside a machine. there are funny things spoken between truck drivers in the highway but i am not the one who can remember such things 10-4. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:03:25 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Lewis Subject: Re: Fullerene Special >At 12:52 PM 12/20/95 PST, Joe Moore wrote: > >>You're more than welcome! It was a great show. I noticed it was copyright >>1992; I wonder what they have discovered since? >> >Thanks also Joe. Does anyone know of any manufacturers or data about the >"geodesic tube" that was shown on the show? This could be very desirable in >conjunction with dome structures, which fascinate me. > >Does anyone know of software that runs on a PC for playing with domes, etc? > >Warm regards, > > >Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore >United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > I remember a patent on an unlimited length geodesic tunnel by Bucky. If you have trouble finding it I may have a copy somewhere (but can I find it?). Andy __________________________________________________________ Andy Lewis Mission Critical, Inc. voice: 608-233-8000 fax: 608-233-9700 e-mail: alewis@msn.fullfeed.com WWW: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~alewis/ __________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:09:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Buckminsterfullerene Mis-modeling To all, I haven't seen the show yet. I'll try to tape it on saturday. They usually replay it then here in LA. However, I fear that they probably modeled the fullerene using the now accepted truncated icosahedron. If Fuller were alive today he would have pointed out in no uncertain terms that this model is NOT triangulated and therefore NOT stable. I believe he would have suggested the pentikis dodecahedron which IS triangulated and is therefore stable. Chemists arbitrarily use the vertices to represent the carbon molecule when the face could just as easily represent it. These two are duals of each other: Trucated icosahedron: 90 edges, 60 vertices, 32 faces Pentikis dodecahedron: 90edges, 32 vertices, 60 faces Unfortunately when you put up a truncated icosahedron on a computer, it looks stable just like the "square on the blackboard." Lets not get caught in that mis-model again. Perhaps someone could program their computer to show a collapsing figure whenever is is not a triangle. Now that might be a useful program. TRIANGLE IS STABILITY!!! William Lauritzen author of the world's most ignored paper :) "Buckminsterfullerene Triangulated" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 23:01:23 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: email-a letter i send this message again, it might be of value to someone. In Message Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:32:29 -0800 (PST), Karl Erickson writes: >> my question about your idea of learning -can you give an actual example >> or two. i have another small request but i leave it to latter. >> thanks > >i've been thinking about this for the last week - been kind of busy, sorry >about the delay - and i think the idea of things being relevant to one >another takes place quite a bit strictly at the personal level. most of the >examples that i've come up with are ones that probably aren't relevant to >other people. i'm an aspiring science fiction writer, so quite frequently >things i see or read give me ideas for stories. > >i'm constantly curious about things, and keep many questions moving around >in my mind, so whenever i hear something that might be relevant to a >question, i tend to remember it. >for example, what is time? the fact that counting is directional reminds me >of time, so i think that maybe time is related, or perhaps is the same as, >counting. it would have a beginning at zero, or nothingness. the 'big >bang' would be nothing more than the inherent succession of numbers >following zero. > >what is gravity? gerald has created a structure with his new struck program >that shows us a piece of what he calls 'icosaspace', which is space-filling, >irregular tetrahedra. you'll remember that regular tets cannot fill space, >so the tets have to be distorted. the tet at the center of 'icosaspace' is >the smallest, and they get larger the further from the center they are. >this reminds me of gravity in that at the center of a mass, things are >compacted the most. > >i tend to remember various details of questions that interest me, and >whenever i notice details of something else that seem similar, the >association is automatic, and i tend to remember the connection. the >connection doesn't necessarily mean anything - most often i end up asking >even more questions, and making even more speculations. this is how i let >my knowledge grow - letting everything connect to everything else, and >remembering everything only by following the connections. if a piece of >information isn't connected, i usually won't remember it until i can find a >connection. if i think that maybe i'll eventually find a connection, i >write the information down so i can find it again later. > >i hope this helps. > >-k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:26:03 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Planck wrote: > are you an engineer or a farmer I've done a lot of the former, and little of the farmer. I grew 4 acres of soybeans one year, and discovered that farming is a much more difficult way to make a living than electrical engineering. But I'm beginning to think it may be an easier way than passive solar engineering. Inventing things seems easy, compared to selling them... > by the way all these farmers who > have disapeared because of lessmore have joined the food processing > and food transportation agribusiness. so next time you see a truck > remember that he is a farmer inside a machine. A lot of farmers around me (I have more sheep and goats than people for neighbors) are actually very good mechanics, rebuilding their tractor engines every year, welding, etc. They could probably make a lot more money fixing cars. 10-4, Nick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 18:59:46 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Fullerene Special In-Reply-To: <199512211703.LAA06601@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com>; from "Andy Lewis" at Dec 21, 95 11:03 am Andy Lewis writes: > > I remember a patent on an unlimited length geodesic tunnel by Bucky. If you > have trouble finding it I may have a copy somewhere (but can I find it?). > > Mission Critical, Inc. > voice: 608-233-8000 > fax: 608-233-9700 > e-mail: alewis@msn.fullfeed.com > WWW: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~alewis/ Andy, I haven't heard of an "unlimited length geodesic tunnel" before. Could you post some more info, if possible? Maybe the idea was mentioned in one of his patents. Maybe you remember a pic in his "Laminar Dome" patent (See page 235 in _Inventions_). Curious, -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 19:29:12 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: geodesic buckminster (fwd) Comments: To: Synergetics List SIFT Netnews writes: > From hotpage.stanford.edu!ml Thu Dec 21 16:02:23 1995 > Date: Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:09:06 -0800 (PST) > Message-Id: <199512220009.QAA00622@hotpage.Stanford.EDU> > Subject: geodesic buckminster > From: SIFT Netnews > To: joemoore@cruzio.com > MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at inside.cruzio.com > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Subscription 1: geodesic buckminster > > Article: comp.graphics.algorithms.25293 > Message-ID: > From: hbaker@netcom.com (Henry Baker) > Subject: Re: 60 Magic Vectors for a Sphere > Score: 100 > First 20 lines: > In article <4b9jhp$stp@no-names.nerdc.ufl.edu>, > lussier@aviator.cis.ufl.edu (Kyle Lussier) wrote: > > I've been investigating a number of interesting methods for developing > spheres, > > one of the more interesting is to use a re-computed sphere of sorts. > > > > Anyway, anyone have a nifty method of spitting out the 60 magic vectors that > > form up a first level geodesic dome, ie., the 14 pentagons and 20 hexagons, > > (that may be backwards). I'm specifically looking for the vectors from > > the origin into space, and at a certain distance, these vectors form the > > vertices for the geodesic dome. > > > > Kyle Lussier > > Silicon Softworks > I think that the information you are looking for can be found in the book: > Edmonson, Amy C. "A Fuller Explanation: The Synergetic Geometry of R. > Buckminster Fuller". Van Nostrand Reinhold, NY, 1987. (about $30). > -- > www/ftp directory: > ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/hb/hbaker/home.html > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > For help information, send email SIFT Netnews Server > with word 'help' in message body netnews@sift.stanford.edu > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:11:44 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dave suwala Subject: Buckminsterfullerene Mis-modeling To quote Wm. Lauritzen, >I believe he would have suggested the pentikis dodecahedron which >IS triangulated and is therefore stable. >Chemists arbitrarily use the vertices to represent the carbon >molecule when the face could just as easily represent it. >These two are duals of each other: >Trucated icosahedron: 90 edges, 60 vertices, 32 faces Pentikis >dodecahedron: 90edges, 32 vertices, 60 faces Very glib with the Bucky jargon. Please, William, explain much of this in terms that an electroanalytical chemist can understand. My organic chemistry is also very good. How exactly do chemists use the vertices to represent the carbon molecule? How is it just as easy to represent it with faces? Can you draw me a picture of the two representations? I won't require you to draw me a picture of the truncated icosahedron or the pentakis dodecahedron. Wm. closed with, >William Lauritzen >author of the world's most ignored paper :) "Buckminsterfullerene >Triangulated" My curiousity is certainly piqued by this low-key advertisement. Please let me see a copy of your paper. Thanx. <;-)> (One of Santa's smiling elves). Dave.Suwala@Reichhold.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:05:33 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Lewis Subject: Re: Fullerene Special >Andy Lewis writes: >> >> I remember a patent on an unlimited length geodesic tunnel by Bucky. If you >> have trouble finding it I may have a copy somewhere (but can I find it?). >> >> Mission Critical, Inc. >> voice: 608-233-8000 >> fax: 608-233-9700 >> e-mail: alewis@msn.fullfeed.com >> WWW: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~alewis/ > >Andy, > >I haven't heard of an "unlimited length geodesic tunnel" before. Could you >post some more info, if possible? Maybe the idea was mentioned in one of his >patents. Maybe you remember a pic in his "Laminar Dome" patent (See page 235 >in _Inventions_). > >Curious, > > >-- > >JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 >850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 >CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. > Joe, Unless I've "filed it" never to be recovered, I think I have a copy of the patent. I'll look for it and fax you a copy. __________________________________________________________ Andy Lewis Mission Critical, Inc. voice: 608-233-8000 fax: 608-233-9700 e-mail: alewis@msn.fullfeed.com WWW: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~alewis/ __________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 16:19:12 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Planck and christmas In Message Thu, 21 Dec 1995 14:26:03 -0500, > >I grew 4 acres of soybeans one year, and discovered that farming is a >much more difficult way to make a living than electrical engineering. >But I'm beginning to think it may be an easier way than passive solar >engineering. Inventing things seems easy, compared to selling them... the solar search is not yet finished, the hidden principles are full of surprises. i wish i know more, but let me guess east of Wiscanson is corn, west grains east also will include all kind of vegetables. >> by the way all these farmers who >> have disapeared because of lessmore have joined the food processing >> and food transportation agribusiness. so next time you see a truck >> remember that he is a farmer inside a machine. > >A lot of farmers around me (I have more sheep and goats than people >for neighbors) are actually very good mechanics, rebuilding their >tractor engines every year, welding, etc. They could probably make >a lot more money fixing cars. . . that is why they have subsides, few billions around the second war. . . by the way do you have basic understanding of geometry or do you need basic help. here in Holland sant is everywhere, i never celebrate christmas and i feel that i am enjoying the loneliness more than having an artifical marketing holiday. may be i should look at the pagan news group. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 08:55:08 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Buckminsterfullerene Mis-modeling William Lauritzen: >...modeled the fullerene using >the now accepted truncated icosahedron. >If Fuller were alive today he would have pointed out in no uncertain terms >that >this model is NOT triangulated and therefore NOT stable. I believe he >would have suggested the pentikis dodecahedron which IS triangulated and >is therefore stable. >Chemists arbitrarily use the vertices to represent the carbon molecule >when the face could just as easily represent it. i, too, would like to hear more details. i have yet to be convinced either way, but where there is wide acceptance of an idea, it is easy to assume that there is likely an effective demonstration simply waiting to be found. can you effectively demonstrate your claim? i do not feel that your statements so far have done so, at least as concerns my own subjectivity. the problems i still have are these: fuller has many times stated that a polyhedron face should be called an *opening*, and should be considered nothing - an empty window. it seems, therefore, that using the face to represent the carbon molecule is more arbitrary than using a vertex, which at least coincides with traditional molecular modeling. a truncated icosahedron is unstable in ordinary circumstances, i.e. in a flexibly-jointed straw-and-string model, but i can imagine circumstances in which added stability might be found in places not immediately apparent. a partial geodome, e.g., is stabilized by the ground, which is not immediately recognized as 'part of the model'. at the molecular level, i wonder, perhaps there are other factors that prevent the collapse of the nontriangulated trunc-icosa form. i'm no chemist - my knowledge is only cursory at best - but perhaps the atoms are mutually repellent, which might effectively create an outward force from the center, stabilizing the form. also, carbon molecules have four bond-sites, i think, and only three of them are being used in the 'three-valent vertices' of the trunc-icosa. what's the other one doing? maybe it's free for outside bonding, or maybe it has some stabilizing influence, i don't know. i recall reading your claim about the pentakis dodecahedron once quite awhile ago, and at that time, somebody who seemed knowledgeable posted a response that seemed to explain why electron orbitals or somesuch molecular peculiarity could account for the seemingly missing stability. if that person is reading this, could they repost their counter-claim? even if the trunc-icosa model holds up, however, perhaps the pentakis dodecahedron should be in there, too, representing these 'hidden stabilizing factors'. you've certainly opened up an interesting question, one that i asked myself the first time i saw a model of the fullerene. at the time i said to myself that the stability must come from some detail of which i am ignorant - but i would very much like to dispell this ignorance now, if there are any who are knowledgeable enough to elucidate the problem. -k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:01:19 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Buckminsterfullerene Mis-modeling >>Chemists arbitrarily use the vertices to represent the carbon molecule >>when the face could just as easily represent it. ^^^^^^^^ >fuller has many times stated that a polyhedron face should be called an *opening*, and >should be considered nothing - an empty window. it seems, therefore, that using the >face to represent the carbon molecule is more arbitrary than using a vertex, which at ^^^^^^^^ >least coincides with traditional molecular modeling. oops - we both meant to say carbon *atom* here. -k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:42:21 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: steele scott Subject: Re: To: modelbuilders Comments: To: JWG9@MARISTB.MARIST.EDU Dad, Thanks for all this neat stuff on domes, building, etc. I'm about to leave Sikorsky for the holiday and I won't be back until next year. I'll see you over Christmas. We're wondering how Mom is doing? ------------- Original Text >From Art Scott , on 12/4/95 11:45 AM: --------------------------- Original Message --------------------------- This afternoon I build a one-thoousand-strut spaceframe: Cheap. Buy a few boxes of cheap cotton swabs. (Q-Tips are too fluffy, and the cheap swabs often have plastic struts). 2-3 bucks for 500. Purchase a can of WELDWOOD contact cement (VENT your workspace!) Get a masons's level, or something of similar shape. Dip 10-or-so swabs, each end, in the cement. Let the stuff dry 'til not tacky. Assemble. Rapidly, if you wish. The mason's level provides a right-sized drying rack. Don't worry about not being able to get the sticks apart. The glue soaks into the swab, and the adhesion is, pleasantly, not great until pressure is applied. The bond is great, and the combination of the cotton fibers and the rubbery cement makes for a nice flexible bond, while retaining adhesion. Works for me! (Warning - STICK WITH ONE BRAND OF SWAB! 1/16th inch size differnces accumulate!) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Planck and christmas wrote: >>I grew 4 acres of soybeans one year, and discovered that farming is a >>much more difficult way to make a living than electrical engineering. >>But I'm beginning to think it may be an easier way than passive solar >>engineering. Inventing things seems easy, compared to selling them... Selling soybeans is also hard, BTW. They are little round hard things that bounce a lot. Imagine walking into a health food store with a hundred pound bag of nice hard dry round bouncy organically homegrown soybeans over your shoulder, tied with a string at the top. The string breaks... > the solar search is not yet finished, the hidden principles are > full of surprises. Aha. You mind reader Tagdi. See below. > i wish i know more, but let me guess > east of Wiscanson is corn, west grains east also will include all > kind of vegetables. There is a lot of corn in Washington DC, and not too much water in the west, hence grains. Also lots of dust. And not too many people, eg on Interstate 50 through southern Nevada and Utah. You can drive a hundred miles without seeing a house or a store. A gas station maybe. With inflated prices. A house of ill-repute. Prices unknown. >>A lot of farmers around me (I have more sheep and goats than people >>for neighbors) are actually very good mechanics, rebuilding their >>tractor engines every year, welding, etc. They could probably make >>a lot more money fixing cars. >. . that is why they have subsides, few billions around the second war. I think these guys are mostly unsubsidized. They farm for a hobby, after their full time job is over. One I knew was a telephone lineman. > by the way do you have basic understanding of geometry or do you need > basic help. I need help. > here in Holland sant is everywhere, Happy happy Christmas. > i never celebrate christmas > and i feel that i am enjoying the loneliness > more than having an artifical marketing holiday. > may be i should look at the pagan news group. Here, this should cheer you up... Bright solstice blessings upon you :-) Article: 43829 of sci.energy From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) Newsgroups: sci.energy,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.solar.thermal, bit.listserv.Alternative.Energy,alt.home.repair,alt.energy.renewable Subject: Solar closets in a nutshell Date: 22 Dec 1995 15:34:45 -0500 Organization: Villanova University Fred A wrote in sci.engr.heat-vent-ac: >amuller@dca.net (Alan Muller) writes: >>I'm concerned about the electrical consumption of my oil >>burner "gun," though I have yet to measure the consumption. >Nothing is free. If you had a gas or electric hydronic system you would >still have the circulator pump, and the zone valves. With gas you may >still have the vent damper, burner motor; and, or other accessories. >Electrical consumption for heating systems is a fact of life, and not >a big deal... It is for us energy misers :-) The sun is free, and plastic film backdraft dampers use no electricity. If the only electrical power used in your mostly passive solar heating system is to move two Honeywell MLS642LS dampers and D6161A1001 actuator motors, and they only consume two watts when they are moving, that's pretty close to free :-) Important points: o Glass is a very poor insulator, compared to an insulated wall. o Trombe walls are very inefficient, because they store solar heat behind glass, and that heat leaks back out to the cold outdoors all night. o Low-thermal-mass sunspaces, eg those made with thin polycarbonate glazing, make better solar heaters than Trombe walls. We want an insulated wall between the sunspace and the house, and dampers in about 5% of the insulated wall, or perhaps fans (1-2 cfm/ft^2 of glazing) that move warm air from the sunspace into the house on sunny days. The sunspace fan or motorized damper should be in series with a cooling thermostat in the sunspace and a heating thermostat in the house. At night, the sunspace should get icy cold, leaving the heat stored inside the house, in the thermal mass of the house. o Water stores 3 times more heat than masonry by volume, with lower thermal resistance, so a box full of water containers can have 1/3 the volume of a rock bed, and lower airflow resistance as well, so it can transfer heat better by natural convection, or with minimal fan power, vs a rock bed. o It is good to have a separate heat battery, so we can charge it up to a high temperature on sunny days, and discharge it in a controllable way to heat the house to a constant temperature during a week of cloudy days. If we _live inside_ the heat battery, we cannot do that... o The heat battery should have some sealed containers of water, and the total surface area of the water containers should be 5-10 times that of the glazing. o Ohm's law for heatflow tells us how much heat we need for a house on an average day. U = hours x (Tin - Tout) (sum of A's over Rs) Beware of thermal bridges! o This tells us how much low-thermal mass sunspace glazing we need, since each square foot of sunspace glazing gathers about 1000 Btu or 300 watt-hours on an average day. o The daily heat loss also tells us how much water we need in the heat battery--enough for 5 days without sun, say (this needs further study.) A pound of water raised 1 degree F stores 1 Btu. o Solar closets can also heat water for houses, and serve as saunas or clothes-drying areas. Other points: o What's wrong with Trombe walls? (They are 25 times less efficient than low-thermal-mass sunspaces.) o What's wrong with direct gain houses? (Large temperature swings from day to night, steadily decreasing temperatures over a few days without sun, large backup heat requirement in cloudy climates, lack of privacy, excessive glare, can't put rugs on the floor, expensive masonry construction, no solar water heating, "optimal ratio of glass to floorspace" dilemma, etc.) o Temperature swings in a solar house (U delta t = C delta T, RC time constant) o What's wrong with "solar panels"? (Expensive, need pumps, antifreeze, heat exchangers, roof climbing--> broken bones, roof mounting-->inefficient, surrounded by cold air and wind, with back losses lost to ambient, vs back losses that heat the house, roof mounting-->leaks in roof penetrations and reroofing difficulties, roof mounting-->expensive rigid framework and installation labor, etc, etc.) o Efficiency vs. cost-effectiveness (Do you want a Mercedes or do you want transportation?) o What's wrong with PV? :-) (100 times less cost-effective than passive solar) o Ohm's law for heatflow (U = (hours)(Tin-Tout) x area/R-value) o Heat capacity and storage (Rocks, 22 Btu/ft^3/degree F Water, 62 Btu/ft^3/degree F Air, 0.02 Btu/ft^3/degree F A cubical solar closet L feet on a side has a time constant of L^2 days.) o Why water vs. rocks? (Cheaper, easier to move, lower thermal resistance, 3 times more heat capacity, lower airflow resistance.) o Why fans vs. blowers? (Blowers use hundreds of watts. Fans use 10s of watts.) o Is it wrong to waste solar energy? (No, if using a bit more sunspace glazing and a hotter sunspace lets one use a damper instead of a fan, and no, if it costs less to underinsulate the sunspace wall and open a house cooling damper during the day.) o Why dampers vs. fans? (Some motorized dampers only use 2 watts when moving, and zero watts in a fixed position. Using these with thermostats allows very accurate room temp control, with very little electrical power consumption.) o Convective loop heat flow (The amount of air in cfm that flows through a damper in an unrestricted chimney with height h feet and openings of Ad ft^2 at the top and bottom and a temperature difference of delta T from top to bottom is approximately Q=16.6 Ad sqrt(h*delta T). The amount of heat that moves through the dampers in Btu/hour is approximately U = Q delta t.) An example: 10 'ball park solar closet house design 20 TA=32'average December ambient temp 30 TCOLD=-10'coldest December ambient temp 40 SUN=1000'average amount of sun falling on sunspace glazing (Btu/ft^2/day) 50 DL=6'average number of hours of sun per day 60 TR=68'room temp 70 L=12'house length 80 W=8'house width 90 H=8'house height 100 AW=2*(L*W+L*H+W*H)'outside surface area 110 RW=23'R-value of outside surface of house 120 DHL=24*(TR-TA)*AW/RW'daily heat loss 130 DHLC=24*(TR-TCOLD)*AW/RW'heat loss on coldest day 140 AV=8*8/144'damper area (ft^2) 150 DF=AV*161.6*SQR(H)'damper factor 160 TSS=TR+(DHL/6/DF)^(2/3)'minimum ss temp to supply average daily heat 170 PRINT TSS;"F, minimum sunspace temp to supply average daily house heat 180 C=4000'pounds of water in solar closet 190 ATM=200'thermal mass surface area 200 RM=2/3'thermal mass surface R-value 210 LC=4'closet length 220 WC=4'closet width 230 HC=8'closet height 240 RC=20'R-value of solar closet surface 250 'find min solar closet temp ness to heat house on an average day w/o sun 260 TCM=TR+(DHL/24/DF)^(2/3) 270 PRINT TCM;"F, closet temp ness to heat house on an average day w/o sun" 280 'find min ss solar closet temp to provide heat for 5 days w/o sun 290 TCS=TCM+5*DHL/C 300 PRINT TCS;"F, min steady state solar closet temp for 5 day heat storage 310 'find avg closet cfm to keep house warm on coldest day w/o sun" 320 CFM=DHLC/24/(TCS-TR) 330 PRINT CFM;"cfm, avg closet airflow to heat house on coldest day w/o sun 340 'find average daily solar closet loss at that steady state temp 350 DCL=24*((TCS-TR)*(HC*WC+HC*LC)/RC+(TCS-TA)*(HC*WC+HC*LC)/RW) 360 AC=2*2'solar closet damper area 370 DFC=16.6*AC*SQR(H)'solar closet damper factor 380 TCP=TCS+(DCL/6/DFC)^(2/3) 390 PRINT TCP;"F, sunspace temp ness to make 5 day closet air temp" 400 'find min glazed area to make tcp, while providing heat and closet heat 410 AG=(DHL+DCL)/(SUN-DL*(TCP-TA)) 420 PRINT AG;"ft^2, min glazed area to make 5 day closet air temp" RUN 74.29121 F, minimum sunspace temp to supply average daily house heat 70.49667 F, closet temp ness to heat house on an average day w/o sun 94.53841 F, min steady state solar closet temp for 5 day heat storage 65.42774 cfm, avg closet airflow to heat house on coldest day w/o sun 97.65994 F, sunspace temp ness to make 5 day closet air temp 41.99063 ft^2, min glazed area to make 5 day closet air temp Nick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Dec 1995 20:12:51 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Buckminsterfullerene Mis-modeling To all, Some interesting questions have been raised. No model is ever perfect. All models have some limitations. The currently accepted chemical model of the Buckyball uses the truncated icosahedron (not triangulated) which derives from the tradition in chemistry of using a line such as I do here, H---H, to represent a bond. However one could just as easily decide to represent the hydrogen molecule as H | H where the bond between the two hydrogen molecules is a vertical line rather than a horizontal line. If one does this, the pentikis dodecahedron model seems to work fine with each carbon "floating" and held stable in the triangulated spaces between the edges of the model, where each edge length is a bond. (Chemists do like to change their traditional way of modeling which derives, I believe from a man named Berzelius who gave us the alphabetic way of writing the elements. Dalton, the father of modern chemistry, hated this aphabetic symbology, and had his own more visual, but taking up more space, method of representation of the elements.) I presented my paper,"Buckminsterfullerene Triangulated" at a conference in Santa Barbara where I met both Smalley and Kroto. I had a model of both the truncated icosahedron as well as the pentikis dodecahedron which clearly showed the truncated icosahedron as a wet noodle and the pentikis dodecahedron as a firm sphere. While the models generated much initial interest, I believe political factors as well as the traditional chemical modeling paradigm keeps people from using it. As far as we know these sub-microscopic events (as well as ALL events) are just energy patterns. However, as far as I can tell from studying Fullers work, in order for these energy patterns to be stable, they have to be triangulated, whether this occurs on the submicroscopic level or in the way galaxies seem to from into patterns. I hope this answers some questions. I don't have the answers. I like showing the inadequacy of our current modeling, and I hope one of you chemists can come up with a better way that incorporates TRIANGULATION. Happy orbital point zero (winter solstice)! May the home star shine brightly for you during this next orbit (year)! I off line for a while now, but will try to send a copy of the paper to people when I get back Wiiliam G. L. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 10:02:24 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: X-MASS CARD Comments: To: "Helen St.Cyr" <5889ww@svpal.org> __/\__ \/~~\/ MERRY CHRISTMAS /\__/\ ~~\/~~ HAPPY NEW YEAR /\ / \ / \ JOE / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ /______________________\ || || || ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 10:36:01 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: syn-l: Struck: Virtual Tensegrity! Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com --=====================_819743505==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" gerald de jong: >i've done it! i've dreamed about this moment! with the phi-powered >version of struck, i was able to construct a 30-strut spherical >tensegrity - all based on struts of length phi-to-the 0, 1, and 2. this is truly a thing of beauty, and moreso, it reminds me of the potential solution i once discovered for the 'buckminsterfullerene mismodeling' problem that is currently being discussed on list geodesic. i have a set of 'tensegritoy' struts - each of which is a wooden dowel with an elastic cord from end to end. gerald's virtual tensegrity struts each have one (red) compression component and two (blue) tension components, but the effect is the same. on tensegritoy, the strut-ends have colored caps, and one time, while playing with a tensegrity icosa, it occured to me that the *caps* (strut-ends) could be the location of the atoms in a C60. there really was no need for me to build a tensegrity truncated icosahedron in order to model the C60. in a tensegrity icosahedron, as shown in gerald's gif (attatched), the 12 vertices are openings themselves. in other words, a tensegrity icosahedron appears quite similar to a truncated icosahedron. there are actually 5x12=60 vertices, and so it is the *tensegrity icosahedron*, and not the 'truncated icosahedron' or 'pentakis dodecahedron' which seems to most accurately model the buckminsterfullerene. in the attatched gif, the pentagons are regular, but the hexagons are not, so it is not precisely the soccerball shape. this is, of course, simply a matter of component lengths (although i'm not sure if some kind of phi-ratio would be maintained in a true regular trunc-icosa shape). the only 'truly' triangulated tensegrity structure is the tetrahedron, because its four 'vertices' are each three-valent (each has three vectors), which makes for triangular openings. all higher-valent tensegrity 'vertices' are non-triangular openings. fuller has emphasized in the past that the tensegrity concept is a more 'accurate' model than the traditional non-tensegrity sticks-joining-at-verts model, so it is the tension-web that stabilizes the structure, and not the omni-presence of triangles (which seems to indicate that the concept of 'omnitriangulated' is intended to be applicable in a special, although quite relevant, sense). in a tensegrity model where each strut has one tension and one compression component, each vertex is four-valent - three tension lines and one compression line are attatched to each vertex. does this then answer my question as to the carbon atom's four bonding sites? each of the four can perhaps relate to each of the four vectors on a tensegrity icosa vertex. to the best of my analysis, this analogy is reasonable. can anyone who knows more about the details of chemical bonds, etc., clarify the matter? can microrealm interactions work in this tensegrity fashion, 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--=====================_819743505==_-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 10:28:48 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Buckminsterfullerene Mis-modeling In-Reply-To: <4bfl2j$p63@newsbf02.news.aol.com>; from "WLauritzen" at Dec 22, 95 8:12 pm I think the Fullerene models represent TENSEGRITIES. The forces involved are represented by invisible tensegrity lines (attraction) in addition to the visible compression struts (repulsion). I agree the models need to be refined and the forces made explicit. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 10:49:38 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: apology for redundancy Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com sorry about the redundant gifs for those of you who've already got it. my first time sending an attatchment. in the future, these things'll be on the web and i'll just send an URL. -k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 17:09:39 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: geodesic buckminster (fwd) Comments: cc: Synergetics List SIFT Netnews writes: > From hotpage.stanford.edu!ml Sat Dec 23 15:21:29 1995 > Date: Sat, 23 Dec 1995 15:28:48 -0800 (PST) > Message-Id: <199512232328.PAA17197@hotpage.Stanford.EDU> > Subject: geodesic buckminster > From: SIFT Netnews > To: joemoore@cruzio.com > MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at inside.cruzio.com > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > Subscription 1: geodesic buckminster > > Article: comp.graphics.algorithms.25368 > Message-ID: <4bggjl$2ci@sd-dns-1.wanet.net> > From: timsmail@tlsmith.wanet.com > Subject: Re: 60 Magic Vectors for a Sphere > Score: 100 > First 20 lines: > In article <4b9jhp$stp@no-names.nerdc.ufl.edu>, lussier@aviator.cis.ufl.edu > >Anyway, anyone have a nifty method of spitting out the 60 magic vectors that > >form up a first level geodesic dome, ie., the 14 pentagons and 20 hexagons, > >(that may be backwards). I'm specifically looking for the vectors from > >the origin into space, and at a certain distance, these vectors form the > >vertices for the geodesic dome. > Actually, it sounds like you're looking for a "Bucky Ball" (Named for Geodesic > dome guru R. Buckminster Fuller. If that's what you need, then your polygon > counts are off a bit. You use 12 pentagons and 20 hexagons. If my memory is > working this evening , you place two of the pentagons perpendicular > to the globe's axis and centered on the axis (like north and south pole covers) > then place a ring of five hexagons around each of the pole-cap pentagons. > Then, working further from each cap towards the "equator", distribute 5 > pentagons evenly about the edges of the two hexagon rings, and then fill in > the rest with hexagons. > -Tim > > Article: sci.chem.45820 > Message-ID: <30DBA5C9.1A3@islandnet.com> > From: Dale Green > Subject: Re: What is a bucky ball anyway? > Score: 100 > First 20 lines: > Superconductivity Publications, Inc. wrote: > > > > gstewart@magmacom.com (Garry Stewart) wrote: > > >Heya...I'm just about to start my H.S. project on recent developments > > >in fullerene chemistry. I've searched the web using five different > > >engines, and don't have any trouble finding research on the matter. > > >The problem I have is that noone's page explains what properties this > > >"bucky ball" has, or why it is so interesting that thousands and > > >thousands of people are researching it. I need some sort of a base, > > >so that I can know what everyone is doing, to some degree. If anyone > > >could explain to me where this bucky ball came from and what it is > > >good for, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks. Garry Stewart > > > > A better name to use in a search is the quasi-accepted name > :buckminsterfullerines. The structures resemble geodesic domes (i.e. > Epcot Centre (I think) in Florida or Science World at the Expo 86 site > in Vancouver BC. The inventor of this type minimal material > space-filling structure was Buckminster Fuller (a Canadian, I believe). > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > For help information, send email SIFT Netnews Server > with word 'help' in message body netnews@sift.stanford.edu > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 07:15:43 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Radio talk on Race -- NPR Fresh Air 12-6 (?) markowsk@stimpy.eecis.udel.edu (Mike Markowski) wrote: >Changing Kirby's words a little, is the problem someone who believes >in categories?? I'm getting sooo confused... The key, to me, is to >not ignore differences or turn them into fences, but to embrace them. >Yet I'm unable and I suppose unwilling to consider the reasoning behind >comments of "racists." Yes, I'm still confused and unable to heed my >own advice. > >One guy's thoughts, >Mike >-- >Mike Markowski >http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~markowsk/ Thanks Mike -- I think 'categories' have to be used to make sense of experience -- no choice but to subdivide the whole and keep going... but some cuts through experience just don't follow any natural grain and cause more confusion than clarity, more heat than light. 'Race' may well be one of those categorization schemes. Anthropologists have gone on at book length about what they *really* mean by the concept, but one finds it far distant from how the word gets bandied about in ordinary discourse. When the only guard able to martial strong argument is way removed from the front lines, mired in technical shop talk, I think that's often a sign that no serious defenses remain. In other words, 'racism' is a kind of weak-mindedness. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Dec 1995 10:34:37 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: APAnote Comments: To: "teleport.com geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu (379) ------------------------------------------------ SUBJECT: apanote MESSAGE from Brian Hutchings 19-DEC-95 19:56 Brian Hutchings (brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com) APA -- Design for Tomorrow 7011 South 19th Street Tacoma, WA 98466 USA Dear Shirley & Bill; Sorry for not getting anything in, but I hope that you'll still send those publications to me "for further development", as well as for next year's contest. I was simply overwhelmed by both a lack of architectural how- to-do-it, as far as the structural use of these panel elements, as well as by what I'm as yet fairly sure to be almost no data, as to their weathering & maintenance in these structures. I do have a friend, Joe Moore, though, who maintains a database of dome-mfgs., and any help in contacting them'd be appreciated, if you think that this bears further investigation, but most of them use the panels purely secondarily, if not all. (You can even get it via e-mail or the web, by looking into Kirby Urner's website, or mailing him at the before-given address, pdx4d@teleport.com.) I was very happilly surprised to find that the descriptive equations of the plywood specification included some 4th-powered variables, namely of some lengths, L. This seems to be, along with some other physical equations that can be found in handbooks of mechanical engineering, _Machinery's Handbook_ e.g., and the one for the power of wind, the mythical "arithmetic 4th-powering" that Bucky Fuller didn't find, although it was certainly there. In any case, it really does have to do with "his" tetrahedra, geometrically, with tetrahedronometry being one tool for its study. Although the panels will generally be secured to each-other and other elements, all around their perimeters, the slightly compounded curvature may give-rise to delamination, so that some studies will probably have to be done. Assuming that that's a remediable or entirely amiable concern, the older mfgs.ought to be of some help about methods of fabrication, even though they may not have direct experience with primary panel structuring (PPS?). The geometry is my primary interest; I'm not an engineer, nor an architect, at least not yet, but I hope to get some of my fellow enthusiasts to enroll in the next contest, in order to make a practical start on another wave of dome-tech -- it may take a couple of years, though -- as well as to have an approach for my own house. Thank you, sincerely, Brian ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compes Mentes!... We return you to your couch, Potatoe. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 16:56:10 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Do it yourself fog gun? I'm just wondering if anyone has ever built or seen a fog gun, and if so, if they work. Bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:02:45 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? In-Reply-To: ; from "bill paton" at Dec 26, 95 4:56 pm bill paton writes: > I'm just wondering if anyone has ever built or seen a fog gun, and if so, > if they work. They actually built & tested various types at McGill U (Montreal, Canada). See _Water Conservation & the Mist Experience_ (1978) and _Dymax World of BF_, pages 99-100. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Dec 1995 18:12:44 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? bill paton wrote: >I'm just wondering if anyone has ever built or seen a fog gun, and if so, >if they work. Check out the pamphlet "Water Conservation and the Mist Experience," published by McGill U's Minimum Cost Housing Group. It has lots of performance data, nozzle part numbers, manufacturers' addresses, etc. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 16:16:06 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Buckminsterfullerene Mis-modeling > >a truncated icosahedron is unstable in ordinary circumstances, i.e. in a >flexibly-jointed straw-and-string model, but i can imagine circumstances in >which added stability might be found in places not immediately apparent. a >partial geodome, e.g., is stabilized by the ground, which is not immediately >recognized as 'part of the model'. at the molecular level, i wonder, >perhaps there are other factors that prevent the collapse of the >nontriangulated trunc-icosa form. i'm no chemist - my knowledge is only >cursory at best - but perhaps the atoms are mutually repellent, which might >effectively create an outward force from the center, stabilizing the form. >also, carbon molecules have four bond-sites, i think, and only three of them >are being used in the 'three-valent vertices' of the trunc-icosa. what's >the other one doing? maybe it's free for outside bonding, or maybe it has >some stabilizing influence, i don't know. boron 12 is a crystal( hard as diamond), and the icos itself can not be that strong. so what you have is 4 icos conected with 4 bonds in the middle and 2 connecting the top 2 icos with the 2 in the bottom in a cell of 4 icosa. the top 2 are linked with one bond, the bottom is the same linked with one. and 4 links to outside cell. little complex to discripe, 50 atoms in total. so the strenght comes not from the icos but from joining together. from Linus Pauling the architecture of molecules. hee Carl first time i used your stratagy of checking notes. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 16:28:52 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Re[2]: Buckminsterfullerene Mis-modeling Comments: To: dave.suwala@reichhold.com hello Dave, where do you send your email from, i have 3 books of chemistry that much i would like to know this year, i do not know if it is that easy. my stratagy this year is to study design, fuller geometry science of physics and chemstry. this i will do in a particular linkage for example in chimistry i would study the elements and some of their charcters, units of distance in molecule bonding which is only few angs, some termodynamics on molecular level, generalized principles i would like to link chimical structure to fuller geometry taking the icosa as different family, ve archmedian structure and truncated to be different ones. crystal and thier changes from one shape to another and so forth. i will do that with design which i link to zoology, example fish shape is used in airplanes and boats soon i will send you my quesions. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 17:33:21 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Planck and christmas > >There is a lot of corn in Washington DC, and not too much water in the west, >hence grains. Also lots of dust. And not too many people, eg on Interstate 50 >through southern Nevada and Utah. You can drive a hundred miles without seeing >a house or a store. A gas station maybe. With inflated prices. A house of >ill-repute. Prices unknown. just for remembrce sake, since i suffer amnisia sort of, if you go from Chicago to San F i think you take 30 highway no, and if you go south direction l.a you take ....?, 5 runs north to south.southward for spherical perspective. totally forgot, those are the days. >>>A lot of farmers around me (I have more sheep and goats than people >>>for neighbors) are actually very good mechanics, rebuilding their >>>tractor engines every year, welding, etc. They could probably make >>>a lot more money fixing cars. > >>. . that is why they have subsides, few billions around the second war. > >I think these guys are mostly unsubsidized. They farm for a hobby, >after their full time job is over. One I knew was a telephone lineman. oh, i got it, it is the agribusiness that got the subsides. >> by the way do you have basic understanding of geometry or do you need >> basic help. > >I need help. then i can send you lesson one soon, though i am self know very little really, you do know nothing at all. i will feel very stupid sending you a staff you know already. are you making fun of me, little me. do you have Admonson Amy book. >> here in Holland sant is everywhere, > >Happy happy Christmas. i was suspended and time escaped, anyway i like not to celebrate such things, as for years they are overlping with little shades of gray even though the gray i am looking for i cant find, the gray coloure relate to time gently moving with a feeling and povery of things. >> i never celebrate christmas >> and i feel that i am enjoying the loneliness >> more than having an artifical marketing holiday. >> may be i should look at the pagan news group. > >Here, this should cheer you up... Bright solstice blessings upon you :-) do you know Nick Consellatey a funny guy i know who have mention you to me. oh that Nick is in a big cave similar in proportion to my cave. i try to read the rest. I have a solar calculator which i use very rarly but it gives me the feeling i own free machine, if only we can get a house like that we will be in our way to send politican home to learn how to cook French food. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 18:32:09 -0500 Reply-To: PLonewolf Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: PLonewolf Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Dome Software I am looking for Dome design software. Any one who has anything can drop me a line. A while back a company called Smartchild and Whitehall Ltd. had a program called SAPP 86 DOME APPLICATION PROGRAM LIGRARY for the IBM PC. I was going to buy it but put it off till I upgraded my computer. By the time I got around to getting it I never could get ahold of them. They were out of Chicago and the program was really good, at least from the program discription and literature that I got. I am one who likes to build the dome full size and this would be a great what if tool. The original advertisment was in Fall 1991 Dome magazine. If anyone has any news on this please drop me a line and I will do a review if possile. Thanks. Pierre A. Lonewolf Lonewolf Communications KOTZ-AM Kotzebue, Alaska 99752 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 10:16:29 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? I guess that that was the same McGill U.book on appropriate tech., from the'70s or'80s, that I found the fog-gun mock-up in; I say "mock-up", because they missed a crucial point of it, in making a bicycle-pumped, "AT" version, which was that it required #high# pressure, about 200psi saith Bucky!... I didn't realize this til after I'd gotten a brass nozzle or two for it, from a company that does make hight-pressure atomizers, but fortunately before I got around to buying the other elements.... I'm not saying that the MUFG isn't better than a sponge-bath, because I didn't try it, but it could be worse! does anyone else recall the event that gave Bucky the idea? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 07:40:38 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: WORLD GAME DIRECTORS Comments: cc: Synergetics List WORLD GAME INSTITUTE BOARD OF DIRECTORS (12-95) Banzhaf, Julie Brown, Howard Coles, Albert Gabel, Medard Goodwin, Neva Schlossberg, Edwin Semingson, Dianne Snyder, Alexandra Walker, Chauncey 3215 Race Street Philadelphia, PA 19104 USA 215-387-0220 Phone 215-387-3009 Fax wgame@libertynet.org (new?) Above info from letter received 12-27-95. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 08:08:49 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gil Friend Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? At 10:16 AM 12/27/95, Brian Hutchings wrote: >I guess that that was the same McGill U.book on appropriate tech., >from the'70s or'80s, that I found the fog-gun mock-up in; >I say "mock-up", because they missed a crucial point of it, >in making a bicycle-pumped, "AT" version, which was that >it required #high# pressure, about 200psi saith Bucky!... >I didn't realize this til after I'd gotten a brass nozzle or two >for it, from a company that does make hight-pressure atomizers, but >fortunately before I got around to buying the other elements.... >I'm not saying that the MUFG isn't better than a sponge-bath, because >I didn't try it, but it could be worse! > does anyone else recall the event that gave Bucky the idea? As I recall, it was noticing the grease-cutting and cleansing power of fine sea spray on the deck of Navy ship he was serving on. ************************************************************** * Gil Friend * Tel: 1-510-548-7904 * * Gil Friend & Associates * Fax: 1-510-849-2341 * * 48 Shattuck Square #103 * Net: gfriend@eco-ops.com * * Berkeley CA 94704 * http://www.eco-ops.com/eco-ops * ************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 09:18:10 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Planck and christmas wrote: >>...not too many people, eg on Interstate 50 through southern Nevada and Utah. > just for remembrce sake, since i suffer amnisia sort of, if you go from >Chicago to San F i think you take 30 highway no, and if you go south > direction l.a you take ....?, 5 runs north to south.southward for spherical > perspective. >totally forgot, those are the days. OK, I'll go look at the road atlas in my car, out on the street on this cold sunny day in Brooklyn, with some leftover snow. Where are my shoes...? Looks like route 80 will get you from SF thru Reno, Salt Lake City, Cheyenne, Omaha, Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, and all the way to New York City... Route 35 seems to be a large E-W bisector of our contintent, running from Thunder Bay, Ontario (where it calls itself route 81), down the northwestern edge of Lake Superior to Duluth, Minnesota, thence through Minnehopeless, Des Moines, Kansas City and Wichita (after a westwards arabesque), and on to Oklahoma City, Dallas, Waco, San Antonino, then (alias route 85) further on to Monterrey in Mexico, then on down through Mexico City to Acapulco... Where it is probably warmer now. >>>>A lot of farmers around me (I have more sheep and goats than people >>>>for neighbors) are actually very good mechanics, rebuilding their >>>>tractor engines every year, welding, etc. They could probably make >>>>a lot more money fixing cars. >> >>>. . that is why they have subsides, few billions around the second war. >> >>I think these guys are mostly unsubsidized. They farm for a hobby, >>after their full time job is over. One I knew was a telephone lineman. > > oh, i got it, it is the agribusiness that got the subsides. Yes, I think so. Individuals don't get much. $50/year for 5 acres? Depending on what you choose to not grow. But you have to have a track record of growing things first, before you can make money not growing things. >>> by the way do you have basic understanding of geometry or do you need >>> basic help. >> >>I need help. > > then i can send you lesson one soon, though i am self know very little > really, you do know nothing at all. i will feel very stupid >sending you a staff you know already. are you making fun of me, little >me. do you have Admonson Amy book. No, I really am mostly ignorant, and often confused by geometry, as in school mechanics problems ("How much Coriolis force will the ant feel on his left leg, as he tries to crawl east on the ball that the child is spinning around his head on a string at the equator?") I think this task will be nearly impossible, with only email text communication. Good. I don't have that book. >>Happy happy Christmas. > > i was suspended and time escaped... Christmas was like that for me too, with a 1 day flu and a 102 fever. > do you know Nick Consellatey a funny guy i know who have mention you to > me. oh that Nick is in a big cave similar in proportion to my cave. No, I don't know him... You guys live in caves? I have a some friends who lives in a solar cave, with an annual electric resistance backup heating bill of $58. They get ready for winter in late November, by closing some windows to make the temperature rise in their slow house from 70 F to 72 F, over two weeks. Suppose cavepersons had had glass... . ^ . | up . R10 earth at . south ==> 55 degrees F . . / g If the enterprising caveperson had insulated Rc / g the inside of the cavern with leaves and ------------------g W g mud, until, say, Rc = 10, and the daytime | .----- . temp of the cavern had been 65 degrees F | 20 x 20' cavern | . and the nighttime temp had been 55, and | 10' tall | . he or she had desired to warm the cave | | . for, say, 5 days without sun, with an --------Rf-------- . average sunnytime steady-state floor |vaulted -- stone | . temp of, say 90 F, and mammoth skins | ----- ----- | T . piled on top of the floor to make |--- floor ---| . a sunny day R-value of Rf (which . . . skins could be moved aside to . Rc . . . decrease the R-value of the floor . g during sunless times), how much Note that since .Rc g glass area, Ag, would have been the upper edge of the . g Ag needed, and what would Rf and glass is lower than the . g the average floor thickness T bottom of the floor, the floor .Aa g have had to have been, stays warm during sunless times, . g ignoring the clerestory because of this igloo-like heat trap. . g cave window, W? (How did the caveperson insulate around . g the edge of the floor?) g south ==> . The daily heatloss of the cavern would have been . . Lday = (8 hours)(1200 ft^2/R20)(65-55) ~ 5K Btu. 32 F outside temp . During sunny times, the sun would shine onto the . absorbing surface Aa, assumed equal to Ag, and some . heat would be lost thru Rc to the earth underneath... . . The daily net heat resulting from each square foot of . glass might have been on the order of . . Eg = 1000 - 8(90-32)/R1 - 8(90-55)/R20 . sun glass loss absorber back loss . = 500 Btu/ft^2/day . . So keeping the cavern warm might have required only about . 10 ft^2 of glass... A 3.16 x 3.16' single-glazed window, or . an early sliding-glass door... . . The mammoth-skin floor resistance would want to have been about . . Rf = (90-65)(400 ft^2)/(5000/8) = R-16. . . During sunless days, the skins would be moved around or a trapdoor . in the floor would have been opened to reduce this, to get more heat . out of the floor... . . Assuming the floor would have had a minimum R-value of 1, per square foot . (both sides), the required heat transfer rate would have been about 5000/8 . Btu/hour, from 800 ft^2 of floor, which leads to a minimum temperature . differential, after 5 days, of about 1 degree F. So if the masonry had held about 22 Btu/ft^3/degree F, the floor thickness might have wanted to be about T = (5 days)(5000 Btu/day)/((90-66)(22)(400 ft^2)) = .12' Hmmm. Ferro-cement... Other modern improvements might include making the whole thing above ground, including some bottles filled with water in the floor, making the absorbing surface a parabolic reflector, and making the floor a wall. >i try to read the rest. I have a solar calculator which i use very rarly >but it gives me the feeling i own free machine, if only we > can get a house like that we will be in our way to send politican > home to learn how to cook French food. When houses and fuel are free, the politicians will need retraining, eh? OK. Here's more... #include #include main() { /*ball park solar closet house design*/ double TA,TCOLD,SUN,DL,TR,L,W,H,AW,RW,DHL,DHLC,AV,DF,TSS,C,ATM,RTM,LC,WC,HC; double RC,TCM,TCS,CFM,DCL,AC,DFC,TCP,AG,UC,QC,EFF,DT,TBOT,TTOP,NTUF,CH,CC; double CFMSHM,CFMSHA,CFMCHA,CFMCHM,CFMSCA; TA=32; /*average December ambient temp (F)*/ TCOLD=-10; /*coldest December ambient temp (F)*/ SUN=1000; /*average amount of sun falling on sunspace glazing (Btu/ft^2/day)*/ DL=6; /* average number of hours of sun per day*/ TR=68; /*room temp (F)*/ L=12; /*house length (ft)*/ W=8; /*house width (ft)*/ H=8; /*house height (ft)*/ CH=2000; /*thermal mass of house (lb H2O)*/ AW=2*(L*W+L*H+W*H); /*outside surface area (ft^2)*/ RW=23; /*R-value of outside surface of house (ft^2-deg F-hr/Btu)*/ DHL=24*(TR-TA)*AW/RW; /*daily house heat loss (Btu)*/ DHLC=24*(TR-TCOLD)*AW/RW; /*heat loss on coldest day (Btu)*/ AV=1*2.; /*damper area (ft^2)*/ DF=AV*16.6*sqrt(H); /*damper factor*/ TSS=TR+pow(DHL/6./DF,2./3.); printf("%.1f%s\n",TSS," F, min sunspace temp to supply average daily heat"); CFMSHM=DHL/6./(TSS-TR); printf("%.1f%s\n",CFMSHM, " CFM, avg ss-house airflow on a day with min sun"); CC=4000; /*pounds of water in solar closet*/ ATM=200; /*thermal mass surface area (ft^2)*/ RTM=2./3.; /*thermal mass surface R-value (ft^2-deg F-hr/Btu)*/ NTUF=ATM/RTM; /*see 1993 ASHRAE HOF, p 3-4*/ LC=4; /*closet length (ft)*/ WC=4; /*closet width (ft)*/ HC=8; /*closet height (ft)*/ RC=20; /*R-value of solar closet surface (ft^2-deg F-hr/Btu)*/ TCM=TR+pow(DHL/24./DF,2./3.); printf("%.1f%s\n",TCM," F, min closet temp to heat house on avg day w/o sun"); TCS=TCM+5*DHL/CC; CFMCHM=DHL/24./(TCS-TR); printf("%.1f%s\n",CFMCHM," CFM, avg closet-house airflow after 5 day w/o sun"); printf("%.1f%s\n",TR-DHL/CH," F, min house temp at night, w/o closet heat"); printf("%.1f%s\n",TCS," F, min water temp to heat house 5 Days w/o sun"); /*find avg closet cfm to keep house warm on coldest day w/o sun*/ CFM=DHLC/24./(TCS-TR); printf("%.1f%s\n",CFM," CFM, avg c-h airflow on coldest day, at 5D clo temp"); /*find average daily solar closet loss (Btu) at that steady-state temp*/ DCL=24.*((TCS-TR)*(HC*WC+HC*LC)/RC+(TCS-TA)*(HC*WC+HC*LC)/RW); AC=1.*2.; /*solar closet damper area (ft^2)*/ DFC=16.6*AC*sqrt(H); /*solar closet damper factor*/ UC=DCL/DL; /*min clo gain/hour (Btu) on an average day, to maintain 5D temp*/ QC=pow(DFC*DFC*UC,1./3.); /*min clo airflow (CFM) to maintain 5D temp*/ EFF=exp(-NTUF/QC); /*heat exchanger efficacy for solar closet*/ DT=UC/QC; /*temp difference from top to bottom of closet (F)*/ TBOT=TCS+DT*EFF/(1-EFF); /*temp at bottom of closet (F)*/ TTOP=TBOT+DT; /*temp at top of closet (F)*/ printf("%.1f%s\n",TBOT," F, avg daytime steady-state temp at bottom of closet"); printf("%.1f%s\n",TTOP," F, avg daytime steady-state temp at top of closet"); CFMSHA=DHL/6./(TTOP-TR); printf("%.1f%s\n",CFMSHA," CFM, avg ss-house airflow on an average day"); CFMSCA=DCL/6./DT; printf("%.1f%s\n",CFMSCA," CFM, avg ss-closet airflow on an average day"); /*find min glazed area for min ss temp, while providing house and closet heat*/ AG=(DHL+DCL)/(SUN-DL*(TTOP-TA)); printf("%.1f%s\n",AG," ft^2, min glazed sunspace area for 5D storage"); } 78.5 F, min sunspace temp to supply average daily heat 304.6 CFM, avg ss-house airflow on a day with min sun 72.2 F, min closet temp to heat house on avg day w/o sun 28.4 CFM, avg closet-house airflow after 5 days w/o sun 58.4 F, min house temp at night, w/o closet heat 96.2 F, min water temp to heat house 5 Days w/o sun 61.5 CFM, avg c-h airflow on coldest day, at 5D clo temp 97.8 F, avg daytime steady-state temp at bottom of closet 102.9 F, avg daytime steady-state temp at top of closet 91.8 CFM, avg ss-house airflow on an average day 211.7 CFM, avg ss-closet airflow on an average day 44.7 ft^2, min glazed sunspace area for 5D storage Nick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:51:50 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKYBALL BOOK On 28 Dec 95 08:48:38 EST Thomas Mundell <70465.1261@compuserve.com> sent me the following info re: Buckyball book: Subject: Buckyball Book Joe, The book is titled "The Most Beautiful Molecule - The Discovery of the Buckyball" by Hugh Aldersey-Williams Published by John Wiley ans Sons, Inc. for $ 24.95. Joe Moore ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:33:16 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Planck and christmas re farmers, the people who get the most subsidies are not people, but the grain cartels, like Cargill and ADM (Supermarket to the World on the Petroleum Broadcasting System); remeber Carter's grain embargo?... they were making big $, then, shipping to the SU. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:35:58 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Planck and christmas In Message Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:33:16 -0800 (PST), Brian Hutchings writes: >re farmers, >the people who get the most subsidies are not people, but >the grain cartels, like Cargill and ADM (Supermarket to the World >on the Petroleum Broadcasting System); remeber Carter's grain embargo?... >they were making big $, then, shipping to the SU. that is a nice analogy, if the highways are brodcasting system then their waves are really slow,60 miles per/h in contrast to speed of light. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 15:08:13 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Planck and christmas >Looks like route 80 will get you from SF thru Reno, Salt Lake City, Cheyenne, >Omaha, Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, and all the way to New York City... but there are two highways that go westward. what is the other one may be 20 >Route 35 seems to be a large E-W bisector of our contintent, running from >Thunder Bay, Ontario (where it calls itself route 81), down the northwestern >edge of Lake Superior to Duluth, Minnesota, thence through Minnehopeless, >Des Moines, Kansas City and Wichita (after a westwards arabesque), and on >to Oklahoma City, Dallas, Waco, San Antonino, then (alias route 85) further >on to Monterrey in Mexico, then on down through Mexico City to Acapulco... please watch your use of the word down are you a catholik. >No, I really am mostly ignorant, and often confused by geometry, as in >school mechanics problems ("How much Coriolis force will the ant feel >on his left leg, as he tries to crawl east on the ball that the child >is spinning around his head on a string at the equator?") I think this task >will be nearly impossible, with only email text communication. Good. >I don't have that book. i have to meditate on this one. i use to meditate on the willamet river for ours and i use so free that was so beutitul now i am in the cave. and i will send you the icos family, say hello icosa. >No, I don't know him... You guys live in caves? psychological ones which have no need for insulation becuse they are water resistance; here we call them subconscious trenches. again, i will try to read the second. but i am going to advice you to make the long spreed sheets of yours usefull by making them shorter and limiting the figures to 8 so we can read them quickly and get enlightend solary quickly at the spot. and make them enjoyable this the stratage of education for post computer games generation. so i will be looking forward to get these kind of snapshots. friend from no where Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 15:14:42 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Planck and christmas there is an icos family in chemistry made from different boron compounds here they are: B10H12 K2B12H12 k is potasium B4H10 B12 they look nice, they H atom is smaller and lay out side the structure mostly. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 10:19:53 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? Bill Paton asked: >> I'm just wondering if anyone has ever built or seen a fog gun, and if so, >> if they work. ...and Joe Moore answered: >They actually built & tested various types at McGill U (Montreal, Canada). >See _Water Conservation & the Mist Experience_ (1978) and _Dymax World of BF_, >pages 99-100. Someone else pointed out the need for 200 lbs per square inch pressure to make the thing work, and the foolishness of trying to use a bicycle pump to attain that pressure. Air compressors are noisy things, but I have one. I have never had it up to 200 lbs/sq inch, as it mostly gets used for auto tires and a few air-driven tools. Does anyone have the other bits required? If one was not willing to invest in a compressor, it might be possible to "charge" an air tank at the local gas station from their compressor on a once-a-week basis, and then take the tank home. I do not like this "solution", as it requires travel, infrastructure, and presumes that gas stations will adjust the maximum pressure on their compressor for you. What about the CO2 cartridges used in air pistols? Could they be cheap enough to use for the pressurization? How about a salvaged air-horn from a truck? They run off 12 volts DC, the pressurize a tank, but I assume that they are not capable of 200 lbs/sq in, nor would the tank hold that much pressure. Same as above for salvaged air-conditioning compressors, fridge compressors, and such. Junk makes fine toys, if you are willing to pick through auto-parts graveyards, and build things that look like props from a "Mad Max" movie. Another idea might be to build a small parabolic reflector, and boil water to create steam. The pressure one can get from steam would be high enough to work, but steam can be scary. www.ill//somebody ple@se expl@:n th:s wwweb @address.bu:s:ness? james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 19:12:48 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Rebroadcast of Bucky On New Dimensions Radio 12/29/95 Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com Surprise!!!! On Public Radio, there is a program called "New Dimensions". They rebroadcast an interview with Bucky today, and the program is syndicated to a number of NPR stations. I did not hear when the interview was done, but it is a full hour of Bucky. Check it out, and curse the fact that even though every VCR on the planet has a timer, audio tape decks never do. www.ill//somebody ple@se expl@:n th:s wwweb @address.bu:s:ness? james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 17:29:04 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY AUDIOTAPE Comments: cc: Synergetics List QUOTE: "NEW DIMENSIONS" PROGRAMS BROADCAST DURING DECEMBER, 1995 Week of December 25 - 31, 1995 IS THERE ENOUGH TO GO AROUND? with BUCKMINSTER FULLER. [IMAGE] Listen [IMAGE] (264k).au One of the most comprehensive and imaginative thinkers of our time is captured in essence here, as he gives an extraordinary overview of the state of the planet and human history. Asked whether there are enough resources to support our growing population, the late Buckminster Fuller, age 85 when this was recorded, responds with a tour-de-force capsule history of Western civilization - a refutation of the economics of scarcity first propounded by Thomas Malthus. His answer, spanning politics, religion, geodesic domes, the arms race and more, tickles and challenges our thinking about every topic in his path, as he describes the advent of a new world where selfishness is no longer necessary. Says Fuller, "We are on the threshold of a new wave." He is the author of many books including Utopia or Oblivion (Bantam 1971) and Critical Path (St. Martin's 1981). Topics explored in this dialogue include: the highly developed geometry of the Babylonians why there are sixty minutes in an hour why churches fought progressive cosmology how geometry as taught today still reinforces the "flat Earth" concept the fundamental beliefs behind the rise of Marxism how invisible realities have changed our world the humanitarian potential of technology and industry why "we can no longer rationalize selfishness" how invisible realities are changing the dynamics of history what outer-space exploration taught us about human needs what "the little individual" can do to help humanity and the planet Tape #1570 [IMAGE] 1 hr. $9.95 Members' price: $8.46 Order Form _________________________________________________________________ 1995 ron@mcn.org and jrote@mcn.org UNQUOTE New Dimensions Tapes P.O.Box 410510 San Francisco, CA 94141-0510 1-800-935-8773 http://www.newdimensions.org Check your local NPR listings for time of broadcast. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 00:40:28 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Planck and christmas friend from no where wrote: >>Looks like route 80 will get you from SF thru Reno, Salt Lake City, Cheyenne, >>Omaha, Chicago, Toledo, Cleveland, and all the way to New York City... > > but there are two highways that go westward. what is the other one may be 20 The other big E-W roads seem to be the high road 90, from Seattle to Boston, via South Dakota, and the low road 40, which swoops down from Los Angeles thru AZ, NM, TX (where 20 begins to parallel 40 to the south), OK, AK, TN and NC. 20 ends up in SC. >>Route 35... on down through Mexico City to Acapulco... > please watch your use of the word down are you a catholik. Just vernacularly-speaking. >and i will send you the icos family, say hello icosa. Thank you. >>You guys live in caves? > > psychological ones which have no need for insulation becuse they > are water resistance; here we call them subconscious trenches. OK... > i am going to advice > you to make the long spreed sheets of yours usefull by making them > shorter and limiting the figures to 8 so we can read them quickly > and get enlightend solary quickly at the spot. The C and BASIC programs were not exactly spread sheets, altho that's one way to do this sort of thing... > and make them enjoyable this the stratage of education for post computer > games generation. It is sometimes enjoyable to play with computer programs that correspond to house heating systems... Easier than building real systems. No leaks :-) Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 00:58:15 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? James Fischer wrote: > Someone else pointed out the need for 200 lbs per square inch pressure > to make the thing work, and the foolishness of trying to use a bicycle > pump to attain that pressure. The McGill people seemed to have good luck with hand-held paint sprayers. Black and Decker? It seemed to me that the water consumption was not so much in getting the skin clean, but in rinsing soap out of the hair. Perhaps higher pressure would mean less soap, and easier rinsing. Bucky probably didn't run into more than 0.1 psi with his boat going full speed into a foggy gale. I wonder why he suggested 200 psi. That might damage the skin a lot... > Does anyone have the other bits required? The McGill booklet does have some names and addresses and prices and part numbers for the many products they tried and rated, performance-wise. I don't have a copy now. Perhaps someone else can quote this information, for the most successful systems they tried, along with the actual water consumptions and shower durations. As I recall, there were only 2 nozzles that worked well, out of a few dozen tested. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 08:47:18 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: MR DALE SMITH Subject: Re: Fog Gun -- [ From: Dale Smith * EMC.Ver #2.10P ] -- Hello, I have some information to share about the fog gun topic. Recently I recieved a packet of information from a company in California that makes the fog machines for "Disney, and other parks". They enclosed diagrams, and quite a bit of information about their product. The water is pumped at a pressure of 1000 PSI through the orifice which break the droplets down from 10 to 35 microns. Which is then fog. I hope this information helps. Here is the address for the company. Mee Industries Inc. 4443 N. Rowland Ave. El Monte, CA 91731 800-732-5364 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 06:52:47 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WLauritzen Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Audiotapes To all, Re: "New Dimensions." If you you buy at least one tape a year from them, by anybody, not just Bucky, people like Joseph CampbelI also, I think they'll send you their magazine for free. general phone: 415-563-8899 to order tapes: 1-800-935-TAPE e-mail: (I've never used this): ndradio@igc.apc.org William Gunther Lauritzen author, "Nature's Number", booklet "Numbers of the Future", video "Buckminsterfullerene Triangulated" (and other works, best left in my closet :) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 23:52:11 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Transition to Sustainability Group Here is a group that I think might be of interest to fellow Dymaxions: Q U E S T I O N S An Expert System on Global Change: Qualitative Dynamics of Syndromes and Transition to Sustainability Project Leader: Gerhard Petschel-Held Contributors: Arthur Block, Martin Cassel, Marian Leimbach, Matthias Luedeke, Fritz Reusswig Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, P.O. Box 601203, D-14412 Potsdam,Germany, Tel. +49-331-288-2513, Fax +49-331-288-2600 Content * Abstract * Introduction * Main Questions and Goals * State of Knowledge and Research Strategy * Relevance and Cooperations * References Abstract The development of integrated models for global change constitutes a huge challenge for science. In order to meet this challenge the project proposed here aims at the development of a new qualitative modelling strategy, which allows for a sufficient description of both the anthroposphere and the natural sphere. In close cooperation with data analytical methods, this model of global change based on competent expert knowledge is used to identify and analyse clinical pictures of the System Earth, called syndromes. These syndromes representing the main patterns of global change have to be arranged into a priority list with respect to their causalities, impacts, and relevances. They have to be analyzed with regard to Sustainable Development, which requires an operable notion of the latter in qualitative terms. 1.Introduction At the turn of the 20th century humankind is facing global environmental changes which endanger the entire structure of the System Earth. The main contributions to these changes are generally known: emission of greenhouse gases and pollutants, especially in the developed countries, the still increasing ozone depletion, or the destruction of ecosystems etc. However, the scope of the problem goes even further. Unresolved economic problems, like the increasing gap between developed and developing countries are main causes for global environmental changes. Cultural and psychological causes of global environmental change and the social reactions to these changes have to been taken into account. Therefore the problem of global environmental change has actually to be called a problem of Global Change. Science is still in the beginning of understanding the relevant processes and interactions in Global Change. Although there is good understanding in the different scientific disciplines, especially in the natural sciences, the integration of knowledge is rather scarce. This integration and further interdisciplinary research, however, is necessary to get a sufficient insight into Global Change. Only a sound scientific knowledge allows for the formulation of transition paths to Sustainable Development. The objective of sustainability was specified by the World Commission on Environment and Development (WCED, 1987) as an development which meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. So far, there are only a few integrated models, like IMAGE 2.0 ( Alcamo et al., 1993). However, these models include a quite limited number of processes and therefore cannot be used as tools for analysing transition paths to sustainability. The new TARGETS model by Rotmans et al. will go beyond these limits and is aimed at the assessment of Global Change and Sustainable Development (Rotmans, 1994). In order to reduce the lack of knowledge on Global Change and Sustainable Development, the project proposed here will try to develop an integrated qualitative model of global change which should allow for the formulation of transition paths to Sustainable Development in qualitative terms. 2. Main Questions and Objectives The analysis of Global Change and the necessity of developing appropriate mitigation strategies ask for an integrated modelling approach. This approach should allow to describe suf ficiently both the natural and the anthroposphere and is supposed to model all crucial elements of Global Change and their highly complex interdependencies. Eventually the model should enable scientists to provide managing strategies to ``shape the future'' towards Sustainable Development. Classical modelling strategies include differential- or rating equations, assuming the existence and knowledge of quantitative relations between the different elements of the system. However, in many cases this knowledge is merely speculative, especially in the highly complex field of Global Change. Particularly with regard to the anthroposphere and to the description of couplings between the latter and the natural sphere, such interactions are difficult or even impossible to formulate. Furthermore, it might even be doubted whether quantitative relations exist at all. It is therefore advisable to develop a new type of modelling strategy which should be based on intradisciplinary methodologies and integrate the current knowledge of Global Change as well as the stochastic or scientific uncertainties involved. Having this in mind, the methodological goal of the project proposed here is to develop a qualitative model for Global Change based on a physiological view of the System Earth. The basic elements of the analysis are symptoms or trends of Global Change rather than conventional variables. These symptoms describe a quite complex subject, e.g. `increased anthropogenic greenhouse effect', `increased ecological awareness' or `globalisation of markets' etc. It is planned to identify and characterize the interdependencies between the symptoms by the aid of experts. The approach thus is based on the `Global Network of Interrelations', introduced in the 1993-report of the German Advisory Council on Global Change (WBGU, 1993) Besides the methodological goal it will be necessary to determine the employed symptoms by analyzing relevant indicators and to identify the former in their spatial and temporal occurence. These topics are the subject of a joint proposal by PIK and WBGU which is promoted by the German Ministry of Research and Technology (BMFT). The substantial goal of our QUESTIONS core project is to identify ``syndromes of the physiological System Earth''. Syndromes formally consist of a cluster of symptoms - possibly spatially and temporarily modulated - , their interdependencies and the causal network giving rise to these symptoms. The analysis of syndromes thus represents the main link between modelling and data-analysis. The syndromes describing typical patterns in the dynamics of Global Change, provide the baseline for evaluating the `State of the World' with regard to the goal of Sustainable Development. By defining appropriate criteria for the sustainability of Earth System dynamics, an objective ranking of syndroms with respect to Sustainable Development can be conducted. Syndromes have to be analysed in view of causalities, impacts and relevances, which puts up a priority list of necessary research subjects as well as of managing strategies to be developed. Based on data-analytical investigations, a set of indicators for sustainability can be formulated that uniquely characterizes the status quo (for a discussion of current concepts for sustainability indicators see Moffatt, 1994). The model can be used in a further step to develop strategies for a therapy or the prevention of syndromes, outlining a path towards sustainability. Comparing this approach with the field of medicine, it can be summarized that only a sound knowledge of syndromes, regarded as clinical pictures of the System Earth, can show how to soothe symptoms which might be destructive in the global context. 3. State of knowledge and Research strategies Some essential parts of the concept concerning the definition of basic notions and the structuring of information have already been approached in the 1993-report of the German Advisory Council on Global Change ( WBGU, 1993). The proceeding of WBGU consists of three steps to formulate a Global Network of Interrelations: a) Decomposition of the coupled system between natural and anthroposphere into ten major compartments. b) Determination of the essential trends which directly or indirectly contribute to Global Change. These symptoms already describe a quite complex subject and define objects and subjects of Global Change. c) Formulation of the interdependencies between the trends, defining the verbs of Global Change. A detailed integrative system-analytical study on the above network has been conducted since fall 1993 by a small group of scientists at PIK (Block, Leimbach (since May 94), Petschel-Held, and Sprinz (till March 94)). In order to allow for an appropriate object-oriented formulation, emphasis was placed on a disjoint definition of trends. In the framework of this new non-modular approach it is possible to use typified perturbations of the physiological System Earth (trends) as basic elements for the implementation of qualitative dynamics. The interdependencies are formalized by logical implications and are based on the knowledge of competent experts. These rules can be interpreted as the ``equations of motion'' of the system, e.g. ``If CFC emissions are high in year t, then ozone depletion is high in year t+20''. As, however, an expression like ``enhanced greenhouse effect is high'' only makes sense if, a) the impact-neighborhood of ``enhanced greenhouse effect'' is taken into account b) it is interpreted as a ``fuzzy'' quantity, e.g. as a qualitative evaluation c) it is taken into account that the majority of trends cannot be quantified on a scale it seems to be appropriate to apply ``fuzzy logic'' as the basic modelling language. In this context, trends are characterized by ``linguistic variables'' and rules are considered as elements of a ``fuzzy base of knowledge''. This allows to model scientific and stochastic uncertainties as well as to describe the System Earth in terms of ``social information'', e.g. what type of information an individual, a group, or society use when decisions are made that can have an effect on Global Change. In this context, it is possible either to include decisions as endogenous, i.e. by interviews with decision makers as ``experts'', or to exclude and use them as steering wheels for the model. In summary, the approach to the System Earth by qualitative system analysis allows for an homogeneous modelling of both anthroposphere and natural sphere. Methodologically, the use of fuzzy logic as a variation of classical logic requires to apply a syntax which is complete and correct. Based on these requirements, some members of the QUESTIONS-project have developed an appropriate modelling language and proven that it is complete and correct. It has already been implemented on the computer and can be applied as a modelling language as well as an information system of trends and their interdependencies. A first result to be produced by the above approach is that some of the major syndromes of soil-degradation (WBGU, 1994) have been succesfully reproduced. Concerning the regional disaggregation of the model it is necessary to determine the different conditions for the actual existence of interdependencies that are implemented in the Global Network of Interrelations as global interdependencies. For example, the effect of ``reduction of traditional agriculture'' on ``soil erosion'' is only to be found in those regions, where (a) traditional agriculture is still present and (b) the application of alternative methods of land use gives rise to erosion. Therefore, regional disaggregation is achieved by specifying all ``conditional qualities'' like (a) and (b). This has been done, for example, in the reproduction of syndromes regarding soil-degradation mentioned above. The outlined modelling strategy will only be successfully completed if the implemented trends or symptoms are formally determined by relevant indicators. In this context, indicators are any type of measurable quantities. These are physical, chemical or biological observables as well as entities from social sciences. In order to provide the necessary access to all quantities, relevant in the framework of Global Change, a proposal was submitted to the German Ministry of Research and Technology (BMFT) which covers an essential part of the PIK-Coreproject (Title of the Proposal: ``Global Change: GIS-supported comprehension and qualitative modelling of the dynamics of syndromes''). This proposal has already been accepted. The establishment of a necessary meta-databank requires a close cooperation with institution involved in the search and collection of relevant data (UN, Worldbank, World Resources Institute etc.), or which are planning to do so (CIESIN, HDP ...). After an appropriate data-processing, e.g. spatial and temporal homogenization, these data are planned to be included into a geographically explicite bank of indicators (Geographical Information System, GIS). Trends are obtained with the aid of competent experts by a purposive interpretation and evaluated combination of these quantities. Having specified and characterized trends, a further step of systemic aggregation should provide for the formulation of ``clinical pictures of the System Earth'' (syndromes). These syndromes are specified by a) symptoms which might be temporarily modulated and which are obtained by the data analysis as outlined above b) interdependencies deduced by the expert knowledge and formally implemented by the use of fuzzy logic c) the dynamics as a result of the iterative application of implemented rules. Thus the model and data analysis are linked together and complement one another, leading to a complete analysis of syndromes. In this way, both the status quo as well as the compromization of future syndromes can be assessed. The whole shall be combined by creating ``world damage maps'', representing focuses of the syndromes of Global Change. Dynamic modelling, however, gives the opportunity to develop strategies for therapies and prevention of syndromes. All strategies have to be incorporated into management strategies for Sustainable Development, which requires an operable notion of Sustainable Development in qualitative terms. Therefore, a further goal of the project should be to formulate criteria for sustainability, which gives a close link to policy makers. These criteria should be based on those outlined by Schellnhuber on the occasion of the 1994 PIK-Symposium on ``Earth System Analysis'' (Schellnhuber, 1994). 4. Relevance and Cooperations a) PIK - internal collaborators * Block, Arthur, Dr., scientific collaborator * Lantermann, Ernst-Dieter, Prof. Dr., scientific advisor * Leimbach, Marian, Dr., scientific collaborator * Petschel-Held, Gerhard, Dr., scientific collaborator * Schellnhuber, Hans-Joachim, Prof. Dr., scientific advisor b) Cooperation with other Core Projects QUESTIONS will serve as a reservoir and organisation platform for knowledge on Global Change. Therefore each core project at PIK will be used as a potential source of input into the expert system. Also the regional models might give hints for specific syndromes and can be used as quantitative tools to analyse these syndromes. On the other hand the methods of integrated modelling to be developed in the QUESTIONS project might be useful in other projects dealing with integrated modelling of the natural and the anthroposphere, i.e. RAGTIME, DESERT-PIAUI, and MAGHREB. Although these projects are not based on qualitative methods, a close interchange might give hints, how to develop integrated models using qualitative and quantitative methods. These methods then might serve for integration in these regional models as well as a basis for integrated modelling in general. As mentioned above, QUESTIONS is to be formulated in terms of social information. Thus there is a close cooperation with the RESOURCE project. Besides the input of knowledge into QUESTIONS from the latter project, methods and results of QUESTIONS might be used as inputs into the RESOURCE project. c) External Cooperations * Univ. Gvttingen, Prof. Dr. Beese * Rheinish-Westphalian Insitute for Economic Research, Prof.Dr. Klemmer * German Advisory Council on Global Change * Scientific community as experts for rules and trends Further, the concept of QUESTIONS and especially the formulation of indicators for sustainable development are intended to be contributed to the international discussion on an information system on Sustainable Development. In the line of Ch. 40 of the AGENDA 21 the United Nations Committee for Sustainable Development (CSD) under its present head Prof. Dr. Klaus Tvpfer (German Minister for Environment) is responsible for the formulation of a catalogue of indicators. In this context the German Ministry for Environment already has laun ched a discussion on the formulation of indicators, in which the WBGU and participants of the QUESTIONS project are involved. 5.References Alcamo J., et al., 1993: Modelling the Global Society-Biosphere-Climate System: Model description and testing and references therein. Jour.Water, Air, Soil Pollution. Special Issue -- IMAGE 2.0. Moffatt, I., 1994: On measuring sustainable development indicators. Int.J.Sustain.World Ecol., 1, 97-109. Rotmans, J., 1994: Global Change and Sustainable Development: Towards an Integrated Conceptual Model. To appear in Earth System Analysis, Springer Verlag Schellnhuber H.J., 1994: Earth System Analysis: The Scope of the challenge. To appear in Earth System Analysis, Springer Verlag. WBGU, 1993: German Advisory Board on Global Change: World in Transition - Basic Structure of People-Environment Interactions, Annual report 1993. Bonn: Economica Verlag, 1994. WBGU, 1994: German Advisory Board on Global Change, Annual report 1994, to appear. WCED, 1987: Our Common Future. Oxford: University Press. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 23:54:54 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Fuzzy Logic Tutorial The Notion of Fuzzy Logic is of interest to Dymaxions, not only because of its ability to use energy etc. more effeciently, but I believe that a Fuzzy Philosophy to be much in line with Bucky's philosophy. I think there is real overlap between his ideas and the Fuzzy Logic people. Bill FUZZY SYSTEMS - A TUTORIAL by James F. Brule' (c) Copyright James F. Brule' 1985. Permission to copy without fee all or part of this material is granted provided that the copies are not made or distributed for direct commercial advantage, the copyright notice and the title and date appear, and notice is given that copying is by permission of the author. To copy otherwise, or to republish, requires a fee and/or specific permission. INTRODUCTION Fuzzy systems is an alternative to traditional notions of set membership and logic that has its origins in ancient Greek philosophy, and applications at the leading edge of Artificial Intelligence. Yet, despite its long-standing origins, it is a relatively new field, and as such leaves much room for development. This paper will present the foundations of fuzzy systems, along with some of the more noteworthy objections to its use, with examples drawn from current research in the field of Artificial Intelligence. Ultimately, it will be demonstrated that the use of fuzzy systems makes a viable addition to the field of Artificial Intelligence, and perhaps more generally to formal mathematics as a whole. THE PROBLEM: REAL-WORLD VAGUENESS Natural language abounds with vague and imprecise concepts, such as "Sally is tall," or "It is very hot today." Such statements are difficult to translate into more precise language without losing some of their semantic value: for example, the statement "Sally's height is 152 cm." does not explicitly state that she is tall, and the statement "Sally's height is 1.2 standard deviations about the mean height for women of her age in her culture" is fraught with difficulties: would a woman 1.1999999 standard deviations above the mean be tall? Which culture does Sally belong to, and how is membership in it defined? While it might be argued that such vagueness is an obstacle to clarity of meaning, only the most staunch traditionalists would hold that there is no loss of richness of meaning when statements such as "Sally is tall" are discarded from a language. Yet this is just what happens when one tries to translate human language into classic logic. Such a loss is not noticed in the development of a payroll program, perhaps, but when one wants to allow for natural language queries, or "knowledge representation" in expert systems, the meanings lost are often those being searched for. For example, when one is designing an expert system to mimic the diagnostic powers of a physician, one of the major tasks is to codify the physician's decision-making process. The designer soon learns that the physician's view of the world, despite her dependence upon precise, scientific tests and measurements, incorporates evaluations of symptoms, and relationships between them, in a "fuzzy," intuitive manner: deciding how much of a particular medication to administer will have as much to do with the physician's sense of the relative "strength" of the patient's symptoms as it will their height/weight ratio. While some of the decisions and calculations could be done using traditional logic, we will see how fuzzy systems affords a broader, richer field of data and the manipulation of that data than do more traditional methods. HISTORIC FUZZINESS The precision of mathematics owes its success in large part to the efforts of Aristotle and the philosophers who preceded him. In their efforts to devise a concise theory of logic, and later mathematics, the so-called "Laws of Thought" were posited [7]. One of these, the "Law of the Excluded Middle," states that every proposition must either be True or False. Even when Parminedes proposed the first version of this law (around 400 B.C.) there were strong and immediate objections: for example, Heraclitus proposed that things could be simultaneously True and not True. It was Plato who laid the foundation for what would become fuzzy logic, indicating that there was a third region (beyond True and False) where these opposites "tumbled about." Other, more modern philosophers echoed his sentiments, notably Hegel, Marx, and Engels. But it was Lukasiewicz who first proposed a systematic alternative to the bi-valued logic of Aristotle [8]. In the early 1900's, Lukasiewicz described a three-valued logic, along with the mathematics to accompany it. The third value he proposed can best be translated as the term "possible," and he assigned it a numeric value between True and False. Eventually, he proposed an entire notation and axiomatic system from which he hoped to derive modern mathematics. Later, he explored four-valued logics, five-valued logics, and then declared that in principle there was nothing to prevent the derivation of an infinite-valued logic. Lukasiewicz felt that three- and infinite-valued logics were the most intriguing, but he ultimately settled on a four-valued logic because it seemed to be the most easily adaptable to Aristotelian logic. Knuth proposed a three-valued logic similar to Lukasiewicz's, from which he speculated that mathematics would become even more elegant than in traditional bi-valued logic. His insight, apparently missed by Lukasiewicz, was to use the integral range [-1, 0 +1] rather than [0, 1, 2]. Nonetheless, this alternative failed to gain acceptance, and has passed into relative obscurity. It was not until relatively recently that the notion of an infinite-valued logic took hold. In 1965 Lotfi A. Zadeh published his seminal work "Fuzzy Sets" ([12], [13]) which described the mathematics of fuzzy set theory, and by extension fuzzy logic. This theory proposed making the membership function (or the values False and True) operate over the range of real numbers [0.0, 1.0]. New operations for the calculus of logic were proposed, and showed to be in principle at least a generalization of classic logic. It is this theory which we will now discuss. BASIC CONCEPTS The notion central to fuzzy systems is that truth values (in fuzzy logic) or membership values (in fuzzy sets) are indicated by a value on the range [0.0, 1.0], with 0.0 representing absolute Falseness and 1.0 representing absolute Truth. For example, let us take the statement: "Jane is old." If Jane's age was 75, we might assign the statement the truth value of 0.80. The statement could be translated into set terminology as follows: "Jane is a member of the set of old people." This statement would be rendered symbolically with fuzzy sets as: mOLD(Jane) = 0.80 where m is the membership function, operating in this case on the fuzzy set of old people, which returns a value between 0.0 and 1.0. At this juncture it is important to point out the distinction between fuzzy systems and probability. Both operate over the same numeric range, and at first glance both have similar values: 0.0 representing False (or non- membership), and 1.0 representing True (or membership). However, there is a distinction to be made between the two statements: The probabilistic approach yields the natural-language statement, "There is an 80% chance that Jane is old," while the fuzzy terminology corresponds to "Jane's degree of membership within the set of old people is 0.80." The semantic difference is significant: the first view supposes that Jane is or is not old (still caught in the Law of the Excluded Middle); it is just that we only have an 80% chance of knowing which set she is in. By contrast, fuzzy terminology supposes that Jane is "more or less" old, or some other term corresponding to the value of 0.80. Further distinctions arising out of the operations will be noted below. The next step in establishing a complete system of fuzzy logic is to define the operations of EMPTY, EQUAL, COMPLEMENT (NOT), CONTAINMENT, UNION (OR), and INTERSECTION (AND). Before we can do this rigorously, we must state some formal definitions: * Definition 1: Let X be some set of objects, with elements noted as x. Thus, X = {x}. * Definition 2: A fuzzy set A in X is characterized by a membership function mA(x) which maps each point in X onto the real interval [0.0, 1.0]. As mA(x) approaches 1.0, the "grade of membership" of x in A increases. * Definition 3: A is EMPTY iff for all x, mA(x) = 0.0. * Definition 4: A = B iff for all x: mA(x) = mB(x) [or, mA = mB]. * Definition 5: mA' = 1 - mA. * Definition 6: A is CONTAINED in B iff mA <= mB. * Definition 7: C = A UNION B, where: mC(x) = MAX(mA(x), mB(x)). * Definition 8: C = A INTERSECTION B where: mC(x) = MIN(mA(x), mB(x)). It is important to note the last two operations, UNION (OR) and INTERSECTION (AND), which represent the clearest point of departure from a probabilistic theory for sets to fuzzy sets. Operationally, the differences are as follows: For independent events, the probabilistic operation for AND is multiplication, which (it can be argued) is counterintuitive for fuzzy systems. For example, let us presume that x = Bob, S is the fuzzy set of smart people, and T is the fuzzy set of tall people. Then, if mS(x) = 0.90 and uT(x) = 0.90, the probabilistic result would be: mS(x) * mT(x) = 0.81 whereas the fuzzy result would be: MIN(uS(x), uT(x)) = 0.90 The probabilistic calculation yields a result that is lower than either of the two initial values, which when viewed as "the chance of knowing" makes good sense. However, in fuzzy terms the two membership functions would read something like "Bob is very smart" and "Bob is very tall." If we presume for the sake of argument that "very" is a stronger term than "quite," and that we would correlate "quite" with the value 0.81, then the semantic difference becomes obvious. The probabilistic calculation would yield the statement If Bob is very smart, and Bob is very tall, then Bob is a quite tall, smart person. The fuzzy calculation, however, would yield If Bob is very smart, and Bob is very tall, then Bob is a very tall, smart person. Another problem arises as we incorporate more factors into our equations (such as the fuzzy set of heavy people, etc.). We find that the ultimate result of a series of AND's approaches 0.0, even if all factors are initially high. Fuzzy theorists argue that this is wrong: that five factors of the value 0.90 (let us say, "very") AND'ed together, should yield a value of 0.90 (again, "very"), not 0.59 (perhaps equivalent to "somewhat"). Similarly, the probabilistic version of A OR B is (A+B - A*B), which approaches 1.0 as additional factors are considered. Fuzzy theorists argue that a sting of low membership grades should not produce a high membership grade instead, the limit of the resulting membership grade should be the strongest membership value in the collection. Other values have been established by other authors, as have other operations. Baldwin [1] proposes a set of truth value restrictions, such as "unrestricted" (mX = 1.0), "impossible" (mX = 0.0), etc. The skeptical observer will note that the assignment of values to linguistic meanings (such as 0.90 to "very") and vice versa, is a most imprecise operation. Fuzzy systems, it should be noted, lay no claim to establishing a formal procedure for assignments at this level; in fact, the only argument for a particular assignment is its intuitive strength. What fuzzy logic does propose is to establish a formal method of operating on these values, once the primitives have been established. HEDGES Another important feature of fuzzy systems is the ability to define "hedges," or modifier of fuzzy values. These operations are provided in an effort to maintain close ties to natural language, and to allow for the generation of fuzzy statements through mathematical calculations. As such, the initial definition of hedges and operations upon them will be quite a subjective process and may vary from one project to another. Nonetheless, the system ultimately derived operates with the same formality as classic logic. The simplest example is in which one transforms the statement "Jane is old" to "Jane is very old." The hedge "very" is usually defined as follows: m"very"A(x) = mA(x)^2 Thus, if mOLD(Jane) = 0.8, then mVERYOLD(Jane) = 0.64. Other common hedges are "more or less" [typically SQRT(mA(x))], "somewhat," "rather," "sort of," and so on. Again, their definition is entirely subjective, but their operation is consistent: they serve to transform membership/truth values in a systematic manner according to standard mathematical functions. A more involved approach to hedges is best shown through the work of Wenstop [11] in his attempt to model organizational behavior. For his study, he constructed arrays of values for various terms, either as vectors or matrices. Each term and hedge was represented as a 7-element vector or 7x7 matrix. He ten intuitively assigned each element of every vector and matrix a value between 0.0 and 1.0, inclusive, in what he hoped was intuitively a consistent manner. For example, the term "high" was assigned the vector 0.0 0.0 0.1 0.3 0.7 1.0 1.0 and "low" was set equal to the reverse of "high," or 1.0 1.0 0.7 0.3 0.1 0.0 0.0 Wenstop was then able to combine groupings of fuzzy statements to create new fuzzy statements, using the APL function of Max-Min matrix multiplication. These values were then translated back into natural language statements, so as to allow fuzzy statements as both input to and output from his simulator. For example, when the program was asked to generate a label "lower than sortof low," it returned "very low;" "(slightly higher) than low" yielded "rather low," etc. The point of this example is to note that algorithmic procedures can be devised which translate "fuzzy" terminology into numeric values, perform reliable operations upon those values, and then return natural language statements in a reliable manner. Similar techniques have been adopted by others, primarily in the study of fuzzy systems as applicable to linguistic approximation (e.g. [2], [3], [4]). APL appears to be the language of choice, owing to its flexibility and power in matrix operations. OBJECTIONS It would be remarkable if a theory as far-reaching as fuzzy systems did not arouse some objections in the professional community. While there have been generic complaints about the "fuzziness" of the process of assigning values to linguistic terms, perhaps the most cogent criticisms come from Haack [6]. A formal logician, Haack argues that there are only two areas in which fuzzy logic could possibly be demonstrated to be "needed," and then maintains that in each case it can be shown that fuzzy logic is not necessary. The first area Haack defines is that of the nature of Truth and Falsity: if it could be shown, she maintains, that these are fuzzy values and not discrete ones, then a need for fuzzy logic would have been demonstrated. The other area she identifies is that of fuzzy systems' utility: if it could be demonstrated that generalizing classic logic to encompass fuzzy logic would aid in calculations of a given sort, then again a need for fuzzy logic would exist. In regards to the first statement, Haack argues that True and False are discrete terms. For example, "The sky is blue" is either true or false; any fuzziness to the statement arises from an imprecise definition of terms, not out of the nature of Truth. As far as fuzzy systems' utility is concerned, she maintains that no area of data manipulation is made easier through the introduction of fuzzy calculus; if anything, she says, the calculations become more complex. Therefore, she asserts, fuzzy logic is unnecessary. Fox [5] has responded to her objections, indicating that there are three areas in which fuzzy logic can be of benefit: as a "requisite" apparatus (to describe real-world relationships which are inherently fuzzy); as a "prescriptive" apparatus (because some data is fuzzy, and therefore requires a fuzzy calculus); and as a "descriptive" apparatus (because some inferencing systems are inherently fuzzy). His most powerful arguments come, however, from the notion that fuzzy and classic logics need not be seen as competitive, but complementary. He argues that many of Haack's objections stem from a lack of semantic clarity, and that ultimately fuzzy statements may be translatable into phrases which classical logicians would find palatable. Lastly, Fox argues that despite the objections of classical logicians, fuzzy logic has found its way into the world of practical applications, and has proved very successful there. He maintains, pragmatically, that this is sufficient reason for continuing to develop the field. APPLICATIONS Areas in which fuzzy logic has been successfully applied are often quite concrete. The first major commercial application was in the area of cement kiln control, an operation which requires that an operator monitor four internal states of the kiln, control four sets of operations, and dynamically manage 40 or 50 "rules of thumb" about their interrelationships, all with the goal of controlling a highly complex set of chemical interactions. One such rule is "If the oxygen percentage is rather high and the free-lime and kiln- drive torque rate is normal, decrease the flow of gas and slightly reduce the fuel rate" (see Zadeh [14]). A complete accounting of this very successful system can be found in Umbers and King [10]. The objection has been raised that utilizing fuzzy systems in a dynamic control environment raises the likelihood of encountering difficult stability problems: since in control conditions the use of fuzzy systems can roughly correspond to using thresholds, there must be significant care taken to insure that oscillations do not develop in the "dead spaces" between threshold triggers. This seems to be an important area for future research. Other applications which have benefited through the use of fuzzy systems theory have been information retrieval systems, a navigation system for automatic cars, a predicative fuzzy-logic controller for automatic operation of trains, laboratory water level controllers, controllers for robot arc-welders, feature-definition controllers for robot vision, graphics controllers for automated police sketchers, and more. Expert systems have been the most obvious recipients of the benefits of fuzzy logic, since their domain is often inherently fuzzy. Examples of expert systems with fuzzy logic central to their control are decision-support systems, financial planners, diagnostic systems for determining soybean pathology, and a meteorological expert system in China for determining areas in which to establish rubber tree orchards [14]. Another area of application, akin to expert systems, is that of information retrieval [9]. CONCLUSIONS Fuzzy systems, including fuzzy logic and fuzzy set theory, provide a rich and meaningful addition to standard logic. The mathematics generated by these theories is consistent, and fuzzy logic may be a generalization of classic logic. The applications which may be generated from or adapted to fuzzy logic are wide-ranging, and provide the opportunity for modeling of conditions which are inherently imprecisely defined, despite the concerns of classical logicians. Many systems may be modeled, simulated, and even replicated with the help of fuzzy systems, not the least of which is human reasoning itself. REFERENCES * [1] J.F. Baldwin, "Fuzzy logic and fuzzy reasoning," in Fuzzy Reasoning and Its Applications, E.H. Mamdani and B.R. Gaines (eds.), London: Academic Press, 1981. * [2] W. Bandler and L.J. Kohout, "Semantics of implication operators and fuzzy relational products," in Fuzzy Reasoning and Its Applications, E.H. Mamdani and B.R. Gaines (eds.), London: Academic Press, 1981. * [3] M. Eschbach and J. Cunnyngham, "The logic of fuzzy Bayesian influence," paper presented at the International Fuzzy Systems Association Symposium of Fuzzy information Processing in Artificial Intelligence and Operational Research, Cambridge, England: 1984. * [4] F. Esragh and E.H. Mamdani, "A general approach to linguistic approximation," in Fuzzy Reasoning and Its Applications, E.H. Mamdani and B.R. Gaines (eds.), London: Academic Press, 1981. * [5] J. Fox, "Towards a reconciliation of fuzzy logic and standard logic," Int. Jrnl. of Man-Mach. Stud., Vol. 15, 1981, pp. 213-220. * [6] S. Haack, "Do we need fuzzy logic?" Int. Jrnl. of Man-Mach. Stud., Vol. 11, 1979, pp.437-445. * [7] S. Korner, "Laws of thought," Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Vol. 4, MacMillan, NY: 1967, pp. 414-417. * [8] C. Lejewski, "Jan Lukasiewicz," Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Vol. 5, MacMillan, NY: 1967, pp. 104-107. * [9] T. Radecki, "An evaluation of the fuzzy set theory approach to information retrieval," in R. Trappl, N.V. Findler, and W. Horn, Progress in Cybernetics and System Research, Vol. 11: Proceedings of a Symposium Organized by the Austrian Society for Cybernetic Studies, Hemisphere Publ. Co., NY: 1982. * [10] I.G. Umbers and P.J. King, "An analysis of human decision-making in cement kiln control and the implications for automation," Int. Jrnl. of Man- Mach. Stud., Vol. 12, 1980, pp. 11-23. * [11] F. Wenstop, "Deductive verbal models of organizations," Int. Jrnl. of Man-Mach. Stud., Vol. 8, 1976, pp. 293-311. * [12] L.A. Zadeh, "Fuzzy sets," Info. & Ctl., Vol. 8, 1965, pp. 338-353. * [13] L.A. Zadeh, "Fuzzy algorithms," Info. & Ctl., Vol. 12, 1968, pp. 94- 102. * [14] L.A. Zadeh, "Making computers think like people," I.E.E.E. Spectrum, 8/1984, pp. 26-32. REFERENCES RELATED TO DEFINITIONS OF OPERATORS: * Gougen, J.A. (1969) The logic of inexact concepts. Synthese, Vol. 19, pp 325-373. * Osherson, D.N., & Smith, E.E. (1981) On the adequacy of prototype theory as a theory of concepts. Cognition. Vol. 9, pp. 35-38. * Osherson, D.N., & Smith, E.E. (1982) Gradedness and conceptual combination. Cognition, Vol. 12, pp. 299-318. * Roth, E.M., & Mervis, C.B. (1983) Fuzzy set theory and class inclusion relations in semantic categories. Journal of Verbal Learning and Verbal Behavior, Vol. 22, pp. 509-525. * Zadeh, L.A. (1982) A note on prototype theory and fuzzy sets. Cognition, Vol. 12, pp. 291-297. BASIC REFERENCE ON PROTOTYPE THEORY IN COGNITIVE PSYCHOLOGY: * Mervis, C.B., & Rosch, E. (1981) Categorization of natural objects. Annual Review of Psychology, Vol. 32, pp. 89-115. SELECTED REFERENCES ON FUZZY SET THEORY GENERALLY & AI APPLICATIONS: * Jain, R. Fuzzyism and real world problems. In P.P. Wang & S.K. Chang (Eds.), Fuzzy Sets, New York: Plenum Press. * Zadeh, L.A. (1965) Fuzzy sets. Information and Control, Vol. 8, pp. 338-353. * Zadeh, L.A. (1978) PRUF - A meaning representation language for natural languages. International Journal of Man-Machine Studies, Vol. 10, pp. 395-460. * Zadeh, L.A. (1983) The role of fuzzy logic in the management of uncertainty in expert systems. Memorandum No. UCB/ERL M83/41, University of California, Berkeley. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 23:56:01 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Positive Revolution FAQ Positive Revolution FAQ What is The Positive Revolution? The Positive Revolution is a Worldwide revolution which has been promoted by Edward de Bono in his book "Handbook for the Positive Revolution". It is the culmination of many of his approaches to the future, in particular his notion of "The Happiness Purpose." Why do we need The Positive Revolution? -Our absurd emphasis on Negativity seriously impedes progress. -In order to go forward, we need creative, constructive and design energies. -In Positive revolution there are no enemies. -What is required is to change human perceptions and values. -The more you invest in the positive revolution, the more you will get out of it. What is wrong with our current system? -People in power use intelligence to defend their position and survive. They look after their own interests in short term and use their intelligence and energy to defend themselves. -Intelligent people attack, criticize and blame others. -Our Western system is like two people in a tug of war; both expending alot of energy, but not much is accomplished. How would a Positive Revolution Work? -Instead of attack, there is construction. -Instead of criticism, there is design. -Change is through Perception, rather than violence. -Power of Information, rather than weapons. What 3 Legs does The Positive Revolution rest on? -1. PRINCIPLES: Design with Direction rather than destroy. -2. METHODS: of Change. -3. POWER of Perception, Information and Effectiveness. What is the SYMBOL of the Positive Revolution? -It is an opened hand. The 5 PRINCIPLES can be drawn onto the fingers as required. What is the SLOGAN of The Positive Revolution? The Greeting "Today is a Better Day". What are the 5 PRINCIPLES of The Positive Revolution? 1. Effectiveness: Setting out to do something and doing it. 2. Constructiveness: Positive Direction. 3. Respect: of others. Most important principle of all. 4. Self Improvement. 5. Contribution: to the cause. What you can give. Why is DIRECTION so important? -Without Direction, there is no revolution. Action in the Positive. -Achievement is one of Life's more durable joys. -Work The Positive Revolution, but also be happy. -Ask: How could this be done better?, rather than criticize. What are the Contribution Circles of Concern? -Inner Circle: Self. -Middle Circle: Local. -Outer Circle: Country and World. What should we be asking ourselves? Of any action Ask: -Is it CONSTRUCTIVE? -To which area(s) does it contribute. How should we judge others? Instead of asking: Is she right or wrong?, Ask: What is her contribution? -Selfish people should be noted and discouraged. How can we be EFFECTIVE? -We only need the will to do this. Effectiveness is setting out to do something and doing it. You require: 1. CONTROL of your own actions & know what you are trying to do. 2. CONFIDENCE that you can do the task. 3. DISCIPLINE: to have patience, perseverance and concentration. Set yourself small steps and carry them out. When you've completed something, pause and say: "I have done that task and I have done it well." What are the JOYS OF EFFECTIVENESS? 1. As we get involved in something we become more interested in it, in ourselves and others. Why was I effective here and not here? 2. As we develop discipline of effectiveness all tasks get easier. We decide What to do and DO IT. 3. There is joy in achievement and they grow. 4. We become quite valuable as people. What are the goals and techniques of SELF IMPROVEMENT? Slow, day to day self improvement should be your goal. Self Improvement can take in any of four directions: 1. Developing Positive Attitudes, Habits and Skills. 2. Reducing the domination of bad habits and attitudes such as laziness. 3. Getting better at whatever it is (work, task, self) that you are doing. 4. Acquiring specific new skills. How are POSITIVE ATTITUDE AND HABIT the most important? -Treating others with respect. -Taking an interest in more things. Opening your mind to new things. -Becoming more interesting in your conversations and discussions. -Trying to be helpful and agreeable. -Assess what you are doing; praise the good and note the bad. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 01:54:14 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Brant Subject: Re: Positive Revolution FAQ That certainly was a beautiful piece to read just before the New Year. Thank you, Bill Paton. Steve Brant ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 23:18:15 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: The Butterfly Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? In-Reply-To: <4c2kdn$od8@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu> (message from Nick Pine on Sat, 30 Dec 1995 00:58:15 -0500) -James Fischer wrote: - -> Someone else pointed out the need for 200 lbs per square inch pressure -> to make the thing work, and the foolishness of trying to use a bicycle -> pump to attain that pressure. - -The McGill people seemed to have good luck with hand-held paint sprayers. -Black and Decker? It seemed to me that the water consumption was not so much -in getting the skin clean, but in rinsing soap out of the hair. Perhaps higher -pressure would mean less soap, and easier rinsing. Bucky probably didn't run -into more than 0.1 psi with his boat going full speed into a foggy gale. -I wonder why he suggested 200 psi. That might damage the skin a lot... - I've been doing some study of late, and ions keep popping up in the strangest of places. I have a feeling that the cleaning effect of the mist may be related to ionic charge in the air. When you take a shower, go to a beach, sit by a waterfall, or walk in a pine forest, there is a "refreshed" feeling. Why? Negative ions in the air. Having the fog gun generating mist is splitting lots of water droplets up, which is what I think generates the ions. And those ions are what clean away dirt & oils. Look at laundry detergents and you'd find "ionic surfactants" at work. Just today I found something in the "Real Goods Solar Living Sourcebook" that uses "activated ceramic disks" to generate ions in a washing machine, and take the place of detergent. Apparently it works wonderfully, and these disks last for 500-700 washloads, which they figure is about 2 years of normal usage. If this is true, and the ions are doing the work, then 200 psi is probably just to spray the water into a really fine mist, and I bet the soap shouldn't even be there. (It wasn't there on Bucky's boat, it was just a cleaning effect that he noticed.) -> Does anyone have the other bits required? Not yet. I'm still working through the Real Goods book. They're a phenomenal company, and you can get a catalog by calling 1-800-762-7325. Haven't seen any fog guns there, yet, though. Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury Web: http://www.visionware.com/pat.html Mail with "send-file-info-please" in subject line to get my public-files list. ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Dec 1995 11:48:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? I think it was in Critical Path wherein Bucky was noting the gale-force of the fog on his face (I doubt that he was naked, but y'never know about his inquisitive-but-modest nature .-)... or it was his arms, or both. are you sure about that figure of 0.1psi in a "gale" ?!?... that certainly'd surprise me, although there's no direct comparison between 14.7psi sea-level pressure and wind, that I know of, now that I think of it. I may've only seen a digested version of teh McGUFG research, in a compendium or annual of AT of theirs that I found at BFI, but I only recall one basic model, and no MENTION of the 200#/[]" thumb- nail of Bucky. his main point was to use a very tiny amount of highly atomized water in a lot of air, although the limits of human skin-tension must be attended to! speaking of HOT air & another topic , entirely, Pacifica's doing a 3-day Nixothon, today & tomorrow & Monday, the 1st. this's part of the Tuned-out Universe ... Bucky by way of Timothy o'Leary?... anyway, it's sort-of meant to segue with Stone's new movie, which's been well-bashed by the media, as far as I've seen, so that I'll probably go see it; I didn't have to see "JFK", nor did I watch it on TV, because I knew that it was factually sound, because it used "Mr.X", who is really Lt.Col.L.Fletcher Proutty, and most people don't know that Garrison's key suspect/witness was let go on a mere (and questionable) technicallity, but I guess that that's covered in the movie; is it? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 06:57:38 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Futhey Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Tutorial bill paton wrote: > > The Notion of Fuzzy Logic is of interest to Dymaxions, not only because of > its ability to use energy etc. more effeciently, but I believe that a > Fuzzy Philosophy to be much in line with Bucky's philosophy. I think there > is real overlap between his ideas and the Fuzzy Logic people. Bill > > FUZZY SYSTEMS - A TUTORIAL *BigSnip* Bill, thanks for the tutorial. I have been aware of some of the concepts of fuzzy logic, and even attended a conference where a speaker gave a pretty good description of it, but your tutorial really provides a basis previously missing for me. This is important stuff and your presentation is excellent. John Futhey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 19:55:09 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: andreas schneider Subject: 01 01 96 Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com ______ with the best wishes for a good beginning- ______ sunrise on the 1st: 04:47 Sydney 19:09 04:51 Wellington 19:57 04:52 Canberra 19:21 05:01 Maputo 18:45 05:01 Melbourne 19:45 05:03 Asuncion 18:44 05:05 Adelaide 19:33 05:06 Recife 17:41 05:11 Rio de Janeiro 18:42 05:13 Perth 19:26 05:15 Tananarive 18:30 05:23 S=E3o Paulo 18:57 05:24 Harare 18:34 05:34 Montevideo 20:02 05:36 Santiago 19:56 05:37 Cayenne 17:28 05:38 Cape Town 20:01 05:39 Lusaka 18:41 05:43 Bras=EDlia 18:46 05:44 Buenos Aires 20:10 05:47 Lima 18:36 05:51 Luanda 18:29 05:52 Brazzaville 18:13 05:53 Bangui 17:45 05:53 San Jos=E9 17:26 06:02 Mogadisho 18:02 06:03 La Paz 19:09 06:06 Abu Dhabi 16:45 06:06 Managua 17:31 06:11 Dar es Salaam 18:42 06:12 Djakarta 18:40 06:13 Quito 18:21 06:13 Tegucigalpa 17:32 06:16 Calcutta 17:03 06:16 Khartoum 17:30 06:19 Doha 16:55 06:19 Georgetown 18:03 06:19 Phnom Penh 17:47 06:20 Ndjamena 17:46 06:20 Paramaribo 18:08 06:20 San Salvador 17:40 06:21 Aden 17:45 06:21 Colombo 18:05 06:21 Manila 17:37 06:22 Port-au-Prince 17:23 06:25 Manama 16:57 06:26 Guatemala 17:43 06:27 Djibouti 17:55 06:27 Douala 18:21 06:27 Ougadougou 17:52 06:29 Sana' 17:43 06:30 Nairobi 18:42 06:31 Madras 17:53 06:33 Hanoi 17:26 06:33 Mount Everest 16:57 06:33 Panam=E1 18:10 06:33 Rangoon 17:42 06:36 Amman 16:42 06:36 Singapore 18:39 06:37 Riyadh 17:15 06:39 Damascus 16:37 06:39 Jerusalem 16:46 06:39 Taipei 17:15 06:40 Addis Ababa 18:17 06:41 Bangkok 18:01 06:42 Kuwait 17:00 06:43 Beirut 16:39 06:43 Blythe 16:41 06:44 Guam 18:05 06:45 Caracas 18:17 06:47 Muscat 17:30 06:48 Kuala Lumpur 18:45 06:50 Kampala 18:56 06:51 Cairo 17:06 06:51 Kinshasa 19:13 06:51 San Diego 16:53 06:51 Tokyo 16:37 06:52 Santo Domingo 17:54 06:52 Shanghai 17:02 06:53 Bamako 18:17 06:53 Monrovia 18:39 06:57 Lagos 18:42 06:58 Mecca 17:49 06:59 Los Angeles 16:54 07:00 Kabul 16:53 07:03 Hong Kong 17:50 07:05 Osaka 16:57 07:06 Baghdad 17:05 07:07 Freetown 18:46 07:07 Miami 17:41 07:08 Canton 17:53 07:09 Accra 18:58 07:09 Havana 17:57 07:09 Honolulu 18:01 07:10 Ankara 16:34 07:10 Mexico City 18:09 07:11 Bombay 18:12 07:11 Dacca 17:53 07:11 Saigon 18:41 07:12 Islamabad 17:09 07:13 Boston 16:22 07:14 New Delhi 17:35 07:14 Tehran 17:01 07:16 Belgrade 16:07 07:16 Karachi 17:54 07:17 Magnolia 17:16 07:18 Chicago 16:30 07:18 Saint Louis 16:50 07:20 New York 16:39 07:21 Denver 16:46 07:21 Philadelphia 16:47 07:22 Cupertino 17:01 07:23 Hanover 16:22 07:24 Boulder 16:47 07:25 San Francisco 17:01 07:29 Dallas 17:32 07:31 Budapest 16:02 07:32 Tunis 17:13 07:33 Grand Junction 17:02 07:33 Rabat 17:28 07:34 Montr=E9al 16:21 07:35 Nouakchott 18:39 07:36 Beijing 16:59 07:37 Rome 16:49 07:41 Athens 17:16 07:41 San Angelo 17:50 07:42 Atlanta 17:39 07:42 Ottawa 16:30 07:45 Vienna 16:10 07:45 Warsaw 15:33 07:46 Big Spring 17:52 07:47 Seoul 17:24 07:51 Minneapolis 16:41 07:51 Portland 16:37 07:51 Toronto 16:51 07:52 Bucharest 16:46 07:52 Salt Lake City 17:10 07:55 Lisbon 17:25 07:57 Pyongyang 17:25 07:57 Sofia 17:03 08:00 Tientsin 17:28 08:01 Algiers 17:42 08:01 Prague 16:10 08:02 Detroit 17:10 08:06 London 16:02 08:08 Vancouver 16:24 08:10 Tripoli 18:11 08:13 Z=FCrich 16:45 08:15 Bern 16:51 08:17 Berlin 16:02 08:18 Cardiff 16:14 08:18 Geneva 17:00 08:27 Winnipeg 16:37 08:29 Istanbul 17:46 08:33 Bonn 16:36 08:35 Dakar 19:52 08:38 Madrid 17:59 08:39 Copenhagen 15:47 08:40 Dublin 16:16 08:42 Ulan Bator 17:09 08:44 Edinburgh 15:48 08:44 Paris 17:04 08:44 Stockholm 14:58 08:45 Brussels 16:47 08:49 Tashkent 18:04 08:50 Amsterdam 16:37 08:59 Inverness 15:42 08:59 Kiev 17:04 08:59 Moscow 16:06 09:14 Anchorage 14:52 09:19 Oslo 15:22 09:24 Helsinki 15:22 10:01 St. Petersburg 16:04 10:20 Reykjav=EDk 14:42 11:20 Nuuk 15:39 ______ as ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:34:50 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? Brian Hutchings wrote: >...are you sure about that figure of 0.1psi in a "gale" ?!?... A reading from the Book of BOCA :-) 1993 National Building Code, table 1611.7(3), note b: The velocity pressure (Pv, in pounds per square _foot_) is... determined by the formula Pv = 0.00256 V^2, where V is the wind speed in miles per hour. Table 16.11.7(3) shows wind speed (mph): 80 100 120 pressure (psf): 16.4 25.6 36.9 in psi (/144): 0.11 0.69 0.83 Perhaps the fog particles were created when local higher instantaneous pressures were present, in say, crashing surf, and it may take 200 psi to accomplish that artificially, but it seems to me that the overall pressure due to the air velocity of a foggy gale hitting the skin would be much less. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:40:40 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? The Butterfly wrote: > If this is true, and the ions are doing the work, then 200 psi is >probably just to spray the water into a really fine mist, and I bet the soap >shouldn't even be there. (It wasn't there on Bucky's boat, it was just a >cleaning effect that he noticed.) Didn't Marks mention detergent in the fog water in his _Dymaxion World_ book? >-> Does anyone have the other bits required? > Not yet. I'm still working through the Real Goods book. They're a >phenomenal company, and you can get a catalog by calling 1-800-762-7325. >Haven't seen any fog guns there, yet, though. You might see 'em first in Jade Mountain's catalog. Another good company at (800) 442-1972 or jade-mtn@indra.com. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:37:08 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Terry Egan Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Rebroadcast of Bucky On New Dimensions Radio 12/29/95 James Fischer remodulated the electrons, thusly: >Surprise!!!! > >On Public Radio, there is a program called "New Dimensions". >They rebroadcast an interview with Bucky today, and the >program is syndicated to a number of NPR stations. > >I did not hear when the interview was done, but it is a >full hour of Bucky. > >Check it out, and curse the fact that even though every VCR >on the planet has a timer, audio tape decks never do. > > www.ill//somebody ple@se expl@:n th:s wwweb @address.bu:s:ness? > > james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com Well, actually, you can use your VCR to record radio broadcasts, if you have a LINE IN setting, a radio, and cables to connect the two. Don't tell anybody. Terry Egan ************************************************************************ * Instant gratification takes too long! * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:49:02 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Terry Egan Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? The Butterfly remodulated the electrons, thusly: >-James Fischer wrote: >- >-> Someone else pointed out the need for 200 lbs per square inch pressure >-> to make the thing work, and the foolishness of trying to use a bicycle >-> pump to attain that pressure. >- (text elided) I believe that there is a problem using high-pressure air on human skin as there can be fatal side effects. Nitrogen narcosis, anyone? I do know that people have died using gas station compressed air in various orifices, and others have died just using high-pressure air to clean off their skin. It may be that using the correct nozzles, salt water, and a bit of distance from the nozzle can clean skin, but I'm willing to let somebody else try it first. > I've been doing some study of late, and ions keep popping up in the >strangest of places. I have a feeling that the cleaning effect of the mist may >be related to ionic charge in the air. When you take a shower, go to a beach, >sit by a waterfall, or walk in a pine forest, there is a "refreshed" feeling. >Why? Negative ions in the air. > Having the fog gun generating mist is splitting lots of water droplets >up, which is what I think generates the ions. And those ions are what clean >away dirt & oils. Look at laundry detergents and you'd find "ionic >surfactants" at work. Just today I found something in the "Real Goods Solar >Living Sourcebook" that uses "activated ceramic disks" to generate ions in a >washing machine, and take the place of detergent. Apparently it works >wonderfully, and these disks last for 500-700 washloads, which they figure is >about 2 years of normal usage. BOGOSITY ALERT! BOGOSITY ALERT! BOGOSITY ALERT! Recent posts on misc.frugal.living have disproved this. If you think about it, you can see why. Atoms require a power source of some kind to become ionized, and in an atmosphere ( gaseous or liquid ), they lose their ionization quickly. Terry Egan ************************************************************************ * Instant gratification takes too long! * ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:59:37 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Terry Egan Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? please replace ' misc.frugal.living ' with ' misc.consumers.frual-living' in my previous post. Apologies. Terry Egan ************************************************************************ * Instant gratification takes too long! * ************************************************************************