From MAILER-DAEMON@netaxs.com Sat Apr 26 23:50:16 1997 Return-Path: <> Received: from deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu (deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.57]) by access.netaxs.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA21456 for ; Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199704270350.XAA21456@access.netaxs.com> Received: (qmail 1846 invoked from network); 27 Apr 1997 03:50:05 -0000 Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 27 Apr 1997 03:50:05 -0000 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 23:50:05 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8c)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9601" To: cjf@NETAXS.COM Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:31:14 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Tutorial I once asked an aerodynamical engineer who uses fuzz in his work, if it was the same as a "weighted logic", and he was rather non-plussed & answered, I guess so. in any case, why is it particularly relavent to Synergetics? I agree with Haack, way into that document (which I'd perused on the web, before), that it isn't really necessary, and the evocation of Fox's that her argument was imprecise (no; that wasn't the wrod; anyway) was unintentionally funny, followed by the one about the definitions perhaps being amenable to whatever -- I'm blanking out on it! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:50:30 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Transition to Sustainability Group holy #### (reference to soil-science) !!... when I saw "syndromes are formally defined as clusters of symptoms", I thought that it might an artifact of translation from German, but then I saw "field of medicine" and "clinical", and that was that. add to that Agenda 21 and the other UN-folk, just so that you know where it's coming from, but the coup de Bill is the use of [TA-DA] le logique fuzziment!... things that make y'go, Hmm. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 11:58:05 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? ions?... intersting thought, but it may be important to make a difference between the stuff that's generated by lightening etc.and mere atomization, or not; do those machines require no detergent (another surfacant, whether ionic or not) to clean clothes ?!? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:05:46 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Returned mail On Sun, 31 Dec 1995 02:14:43 -0600, Mail Delivery Subsystem wrote: > Subject: Returned mail: Unable to deliver mail > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 554 sendall: too many hops 19 (17 max): from , to brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com > > I think it was in Critical Path wherein Bucky was noting the gale-force > of the fog on his face (I doubt that he was naked, but > y'never know about his inquisitive-but-modest nature .-)... or > it was his arms, or both. are you sure about that figure > of 0.1psi in a "gale" ?!?... that certainly'd surprise me, although > there's no direct comparison between 14.7psi sea-level pressure and > wind, that I know of, now that I think of it. > I may've only seen a digested version of teh McGUFG research, > in a compendium or annual of AT of theirs that I found at BFI, but > I only recall one basic model, and no MENTION of the 200#/[]" thumb- > nail of Bucky. his main point was to use a very tiny amount > of highly atomized water in a lot of air, although > the limits of human skin-tension must be attended to! > > speaking of HOT air & another topic , entirely, > Pacifica's doing a 3-day Nixothon, today & tomorrow & Monday, > the 1st. this's part of the Tuned-out Universe ... > Bucky by way of Timothy o'Leary?... anyway, > it's sort-of meant to segue with Stone's new movie, > which's been well-bashed by the media, as far as I've seen, so that > I'll probably go see it; I didn't have to see "JFK", nor > did I watch it on TV, because I knew that it was factually sound, > because it used "Mr.X", who is really Lt.Col.L.Fletcher Proutty, and > most people don't know that Garrison's key suspect/witness was let go > on a mere (and questionable) technicallity, but > I guess that that's covered in the movie; is it? > > > ----- > "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": > Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. > ----- > On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com oops; how'd that happen?... anyway, Previous Caller, that wasn't Bucky's boat, it was the USNavy's, although he may've been commanding it! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:09:01 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: brussg38@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU Subject: GEODESIC DOME HOMES The main reason for this email is to inquire about a book that I used to own on Geodesic Dome Homes. It was published years ago by Pacific Domes, and has since gone out of print. Anyway, I have lost this book, and it belonged to my dad. I would REALLY like to find another copy to replace it, but I have no idea where to find it. Do you? It was a quite large (about 11"x14" ?) paperback book, and will probably cost a lot if I can find it, but the contents of the book are well worth the cost. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Scott Brush brussg38@snyoneva.cc.oneonta.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 19:42:03 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: GEODESIC DOME HOMES In-Reply-To: ; from "brussg38@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU" at Jan 1, 96 5:09 pm brussg38@SNYONEVA.CC.ONEONTA.EDU writes: > The main reason for this email is to inquire about a book that I > used to own on Geodesic Dome Homes. It was published years ago by > Pacific Domes, and has since gone out of print. Anyway, I have lost this > book, and it belonged to my dad. I would REALLY like to find another > copy to replace it, but I have no idea where to find it. Do you? It was > a quite large (about 11"x14" ?) paperback book, and will probably cost a > lot if I can find it, but the contents of the book are well worth the cost. > Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, > Scott Brush > brussg38@snyoneva.cc.oneonta.edu The books that you refer to are probably _Domebook 1_ (1970) and _Domebook 2_ (1971). They are definitely out of print; however, the people that published them used to be located at: Shelter Publications P.O.Box 279 Bolinas, CA 94924 You might try posting a note to one of the used books for sale newsgroups. Good luck! -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 23:08:15 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Ceramic Discs Patrick G. Salsbury said: >Just today I found something in the "Real Goods Solar >Living Sourcebook" that uses "activated ceramic disks" to generate ions in a >washing machine, and take the place of detergent. Apparently it works >wonderfully, and these disks last for 500-700 washloads, which they figure is >about 2 years of normal usage. These things came out in the 80s. They are pure BS. Several consumer advocates exposed these things. There ARE devices that DO "ionize" water, and there is one heavy duty module that can keep algae from growing in your pool without the use of chemicals. These are large and expensvie. They require electricity, which is, if you think about it, a required item for ionization. Real Goods is being party to a fraud if they continue to market these "discs" as anything more than coasters. There is no way that they could avoid hearing about these things. Is your catalog a RECENT one? I guess I should send Real Goods a sample of my $39.95 Majjic Beans - just plant, and in a matter of hours, you have your own private space program!! www.ill//somebody ple@se expl@:n th:s wwweb @ddress.bu:s:ness? james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:30:51 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Rebroadcast of Bucky On New Dimensions Radio 12/29/95 well, I only recently heard an ad for an AM-FM radio & tape player that actually allowed recording of the stations; maybe, there was a fix in from ASCAP/BMI/etc.... on a rlated front, why can't you turn the picture off on a TV, leaving the heads' talking?... I imagine that this is possible on some of the PCTV implimentations, if not all. now, if you can get a line-out from radio to line-in on VCR, is there another line-out on the VCR suitable for the line-in on a cassette deck? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 13:55:11 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Car Wash > Bill Paton asked: > >>> I'm just wondering if anyone has ever built or seen a fog gun, and if so, >>> if they work. > > ...and Joe Moore answered: > >>They actually built & tested various types at McGill U (Montreal, Canada). >>See _Water Conservation & the Mist Experience_ (1978) and _Dymax World of BF_, >>pages 99-100. > > Someone else pointed out the need for 200 lbs per square inch pressure > to make the thing work, and the foolishness of trying to use a bicycle > pump to attain that pressure. > > Air compressors are noisy things, but I have one. I have never had it > up to 200 lbs/sq inch, as it mostly gets used for auto tires and a few to add to your examples how about car wash, of course the water there does not come out like fog. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:17:00 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Buchanan, Joan" Subject: Re: Rebroadcast of Bucky On New Dimensions Radio 12/29/95 Comments: To: owner-geodesic For what it's worth, regarding audio tape decks with timers: Art Bell advertises on his "Dreamland" radio show, a device that is called "RealTalk" (or is it "Reel Talk?"). It is my understanding that it is something like a clock radio with cassette recorder, but has the ability to record for 3-1/2 hours straight on one side of a cassette tape. ---------- From: owner-geodesic To: Multiple recipients of list GEODESIC Subject: Rebroadcast of Bucky On New Dimensions Radio 12/29/95 Date: Friday, December 29, 1995 7:12PM Surprise!!!! On Public Radio, there is a program called "New Dimensions". They rebroadcast an interview with Bucky today, and the program is syndicated to a number of NPR stations. I did not hear when the interview was done, but it is a full hour of Bucky. Check it out, and curse the fact that even though every VCR on the planet has a timer, audio tape decks never do. www.ill//somebody ple@se expl@:n th:s wwweb @address.bu:s:ness? james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:33:00 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: 01 01 96 >______ >with the best wishes for a good beginning- > >______ >sunrise on the 1st: > >04:47 Sydney >19:09 > this is really funny, but you made one mistake that is sun apperance or sun view the earth spins in by dieclipsing we see the sun. i will check your list. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:46:35 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Tutorial In article <30E6A4E2.1612@olympus.net>, John Futhey wrote: > bill paton wrote: > > > > The Notion of Fuzzy Logic is of interest to Dymaxions, not only because of > > its ability to use energy etc. more effeciently, but I believe that a > > Fuzzy Philosophy to be much in line with Bucky's philosophy. I think there > > is real overlap between his ideas and the Fuzzy Logic people. Bill > > > > FUZZY SYSTEMS - A TUTORIAL > > *BigSnip* > > Bill, thanks for the tutorial. I have been aware of some of the > concepts of fuzzy logic, and even attended a conference where a speaker > gave a pretty good description of it, but your tutorial really provides > a basis previously missing for me. This is important stuff and your > presentation is excellent. > > John Futhey For the Record, I did not write this (I wish I had) I just passed it on to this group. Since I believe it to be of interest to Dymaxions. Bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:01:47 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: opps@HAVEN.IOS.COM Organization: Internet Online Services Subject: do-it-yourself domes? Seeking info on prefab dome kits. Appreciate any tips. Thank you! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:24:15 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Icosahedron the first lesson in geometry To Nick, with just start few ideas and see what you know. if you want to study this geometry you should always think of the icosa family first which have complex branches one is Fuller fotball structure ( the carbon species). i think you know that icos have 20 tringles if you divide each of these tringles into 4 you end out with 80 tringle and this is 2 frequency icosa. if you divide into 9 tringles then you have 3 frequency. to build these you start from the top you connect 5 tringles and you also make the botom which is also 5 tringles. then you connect the top with the botom with another 10 tringles which are positioned between the two fives. is this easy staff Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:38:58 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Ceramic Discs In Message Mon, 01 Jan 1996 23:08:15 -0500, James Fischer writes: > Patrick G. Salsbury said: > >>Just today I found something in the "Real Goods Solar >>Living Sourcebook" that uses "activated ceramic disks" to generate ions in a >>washing machine, and take the place of detergent. Apparently it works >>wonderfully, and these disks last for 500-700 washloads, which they figure is >>about 2 years of normal usage. i do not get this washing machine staff, can you really use them and is the tech of washing machines going to change. i heard that ions are used to make you feel better, is there any truth to that. Russan woman have a strange machine which might produce ions when they asked her what can the machine do, she said it is a secret. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 22:07:13 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Self potato and style i am having unsettled time, it is my background, i am trying to harmonize my way of using time. basically i feel that i am doing this then that. i live in an area where i do not feel home. and every time i get to my place i leave, no style of living, i can read or do nothing eat or go to a cafe anytime no particular hours for doing particular thing. no anchor you might say. i have much time for now but i do not know what to do with it, of course money is on the edge but not very low. i have a table in my room, where i have one zoology book 3 chemistry books, Fuller and Edmson book of geometry a bit closer i have Maschoest book by Duluze and Meeting at Samara by Jhon ohara, scincefiction book, a book about Marquze de Sade and a book by Battaie about eroticism( center of being). i take the tram which go very slow, so i need 30 minutes to go to Utrecht where i spend my time, i been doing this trip for 5 years, to get another place in holland you have to waite 4 years, they chose the place where you should live. this are the list of reading for the next 3 months, of course there are few articles about desgin, and collecting of related material would be combined with this list. you are either in your house, a cafe, library that is all there are millions of cafe, there are only 2 or 3 to go to the rest you feel sort of emprisoned by the place. i am planning to go to Amsterdam but who knows how long it takes. my approach to learning is full of anxity, get panck somtimes ,i dont understand why it happens, may be i am not in control. i divide my time, at least theoritically , 10 hours to geometry,10 hours design, 10 hours scientific data, rest to litreture. i am not taking it in free spirt. some of you take pleasure in this kind of exploration, some take it as a hobby, i was wondering if some of you can talk about how you see this process of learning. i would like to enjoy my time but sometimes i am hurrying as if tommorrow is the last day of my life. i wonder what some of you do or think when you awake in the morrning, how do you approach these big task, how do you handle a book, how you plan, what kind of books on the shelves(important ones) what kind of enviroment are you surrounded with, does time control or does it moves smoothly and how that can be. quesions of style. one time a buddest teacher asked me about a picture on the wall of hand catching a cigerette. he asked me what is atractive about it . my answer was stupid, i said the cigarette, forgeting the hand. tagdi p.s Beatles songs are on the surface and not in the core, pleasent but make you feel that you do not feel,.. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 18:51:19 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DOME COMPANIES A list of geodesic dome manufacturers (in and out of business) can be found at: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domeman.html -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 08:47:27 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Solar closet questions and answers >1/ If you have the thermal mass under a house isn't it going to be bloody >hot in summer? Perhaps, but a) why put the thermal mass under a house? and b) ve haf ways to keep the sunspace from overheating in summer. Why not put the thermal mass, eg a solar closet, inside the house, sitting on the ground, behind the sunspace... Of course the house would have some thermal mass of its own too. In the summer the sunspace and solar closet might be quite cool, if they were aired out in the evenings, or shielded from the sun by some greenhouse shadecloth hanging outside of the glazing, etc. Or we might want to keep the solar closet hot to make hot water for the house or to let it serve as a thermal chimney at night, in order to ventilate the house when the outside air is cooler, and store "coolth" in the thermal mass of the house itself at night, then button up the house during the day, with no daytime ventilation to the outside. Keeping the sunspace hot in the summer might mean tilted vs vertical glazing, or a horizontal shiny reflector in front of it. >With any reasonable level of insulation it is still going to leak heat a bit. Sure, but the point is to design an overall system that will maintain a comfortable temperature. Vents, grapes, runner beans, clematis, and overhangs can all help keep the sunspace cool in the summer too. The heat that leaks into the house during the day can usually be vented out of the house at night. For example, suppose the house is 2,000 ft^2, two stories, ie about 30' x 30' x 16' tall, with average R30 walls and ceiling, and suppose it has gypsum drywalls, 1/2" thick, as the main thermal mass of the house, which have a thermal mass equivalent to about a half pound of water per square foot of wall, and suppose it is 90 F outside during the day and 70 F at night. If the house has the same sort of ventilation night and day, and no internal heat gain, it will average out the outdoor temperature swings, to have an average internal temperature of 80 F. What can we do to keep the house at 80 F max, 24 hours a day? This house has an exterior surface area of about 1,000 ft^2 for the ceiling and 500 ft^2 for each wall, a total of 3,000 ft^2, so A/R is 3,000/30 = 100, ie if the outside temp is 1 degree F warmer than the inside temp for an hour, the house will gain 100 Btu of heat. In this example, the heat that leaks into the house during the day through the walls and ceiling will be about 12(90-80)100 = 12,000 Btu, which could be removed with 2 hours of air conditioning with a 6,000 Btu/hour 1 kW window air conditioner, or removed by night ventilation... How much, using seat of the pants calculations? 1 Btu will heat 55 ft^3 of air 1 degree F, which means that 1 cfm of airflow with an air temp difference of 1 degree F will remove about 1 Btu/hour. We need to remove about 12,000 Btu in 12 hours, or 1,000 Btu/hour with a 10 F air temp difference, which means the fan (or solar closet induced ventilation) has to move an average of 100 cfm at night. A very small fan. Here's another rule of thumb for convection airflow induced by heat: if you have a space that is H feet tall, and the air at the bottom is Tb degrees F and the air at the top is Tt degrees F, and there are vent holes for airflow at the top and bottom of the space that have an area of Av ft^2 each, the amount of air that will flow through those holes in cfm will be approximately Q (cfm) = 16.6 Av sqrt(H(Tu-Tt)). So how big do the holes have to be to make 100 cfm of air flow at night, if the house is 80 F and the outdoor air is 70 F and the distance from the top to the bottom vent hole is 8'? Let's turn this equation around: Av = Q/(16.6 sqrt(H(Tu-Tt))) = 100/(16.6 sqrt(8'(80-70))) = 0.67 ft^2. About 100 in^2, not very big, 10" x 10"... Of course we want these holes to open up automatically at night and close during the day, eg with motorized dampers with thermostats or passive plastic film backdraft dampers that only allow air to flow into the house through the bottom hole and out of the house through the top hole. Suppose we used the solar closet as a "fan" to move this air. Suppose it were 120 F instead of 80 F? Then we have Av = 100/(16.6 sqrt(8(120-70))) = .3 ft^2, ie 43 in^2 or say, 10" x 4". The vents could be still smaller, or there would be more airflow for the same size vents. What does the thermal mass of the house have to do with this? The house has a thermal mass of about 1/2 pound of water per square foot of wall and ceiling, or 1/2 x 3,000 = 1,500 lb of water, ie 1,500 Btu/degree F of thermal mass, total. If we want the maximum temperature inside the house to be 80 F, with the conditions above, how cool do we have to get the walls of the house at night? We cool them off at night, and they heat up when the heat leaks into the house during the day... As the house heats up 1 degree F, the walls will absorb 1,500 Btu of heat. We decided that during the day, the house will absorb about 12,000 Btu of heat, which will raise its thermal mass temperature, ie its temperature, by 12,000/1,500 = 8 F, so to keep the house temp below 80 F at all times during the day, it has to have a maximum temperature of 72 F at dawn. If we added more thermal mass to the house, it could be warmer at dawn and still stay below 80 F during the whole day. Let's try that, say an extra layer of drywall, poof. Now we have 3,000 Btu/degree F, so the house only needs to be 76 F at dawn... In one solar closet house example, we suggested 20 55 gallon drums full of water for thermal mass. If this were used for house cooling, with the closet vented at night and completely shaded and insulated during the day, the thermal mass available for cooling would be about 10,000 pounds of water, so the closet could keep the house below 80 F during the day if its temp at dawn were roughly 80 F - 12,000/10,000 = 80 - 1.2 = 78.8 F. We would want to look at the heat transfer rate here too. >2/ Is there any way you could have the sunspace physically separated from >the thermal mass? You mean more separated? Sure. The easiest way is to put the thermal mass above the sunspace, as in the attic warmstores of Norman Saunders, PE, so hot air from the sunspace naturally flows up to the thermal mass and heats it during the day, and the heat stays trapped up there in the thermal mass like an igloo, with the entrance below the heated space, since warm air rises. But then you have to have a stronger attic or second floor to hold up the thermal mass, which tends to be heavy, and that can be a more dangerous situation in earthquake-prone parts of the world (altho it might make the house more fireproof, with some sort of sprinkler system, and provide a more natural water and hot water supply, starting with rainwater), and you have to somehow bring some warm air back down to the house to provide heat for the house when the house needs heat, which probably means using a fan, rather than natural convection, even tho natural convection can make this whole system work if it is on the ground floor, in principle. A vaulted stone ceiling with foam on the outside of the stone would be nice, with a ceiling fan to bring the heat down to the living space... A cathedral or Monolithic Dome... We could modify Notre dame. Foam the roof, add some ceiling fans, fill in the south buttresses with polycarbonate or polyethylene film glazing to make an inexpensive sunspace... We can also put the thermal mass on the same level as the sunspace, or underneath it, as in a low-thermal-mass solar attic, with the thermal mass in the basement. This usually requires a fan or a blower to make it work, but if the ducts that connect the low-thermal-mass sunspace and the high- thermal-mass heat battery are large enough in cross section, eg 2'x 2' across, large fans can be used instead of more power-hungry blowers, and the electrical fan power used can be reasonably small. >3/ Is there any way you could have the sunspace/thermal mass separated from >the house? Sure. But it is not easy to move heat over large distances. In the case of hot air, if the ducts are small in cross section, the air velocity and fan power need to be higher, and if the ducts are larger, they cost more and take up more space and leak more heat through their walls, even if those duct walls are insulated. It's easier to move hot water than hot air over a distance, but then you have energy efficiency and economic and complexity penalties in converting the hot air to and from hot water at each end. I suspect that putting a solar furnace out in the yard may not make much sense in todays's economics, if that's all the structure does, since oil is so cheap. But then, putting solar water heating panels or PV panels on the roof may not make much economic sense either... Chacun a son gout special. >4/ Would the air passing over the thermal mass and then into the house pick >up the smell of hot plastic? (Assuming water is being used for thermal mass >and said mass is stored in plastic containers.) I don't know. I doubt it, at these temperatures. >Could you use a heat exchanger to avoid this problem? I suppose so, but that sounds like a complication to be avoided. >5/ What about using phase change materials in the heat store? (Admittedly >more complex.) Last time I looked, they seemed to be expensive, vs water, and Glauber's salts need to be stirred up mechanically once in a while to keep working. They also had a limited temperature range over which they act, vs water. Suppose you did have some super material with a very high thermal mass per unit volume--how would you get solar heat into and out of it? You need surface area for that, eg thin layers of material eg wallboard or ceiling tiles, but then the heat battery is not compact, and it has little insulation, and you have to live inside the heat battery, so you can't charge it up to a high temp on a sunny day... I haven't looked at this lately. I like water for thermal mass, in sealed containers in one compact, well- insulated high-temperature space, with lots of insulation in the house, so the heat battery does not have to contain too much water. I also like the idea of combining a solar thermal store and a warm wastewater treatment system, eg in a few septic tanks. Septic tanks are very cheap where I live, about $600 for a 5' deep x 6' wide x 12' long, 1500 gallon septic tank with a sealed lid. It might make sense to stack a few of those up out in the yard, say a structure 12' high and 8' wide and 12' long, surrounded by 6" of fiberglass insulation on all 5 sides, all round, with glazing on the sun- facing side. This would do a dandy job of sewage treatment, since biological reaction rates double every time we raise the temperature of the system 10 degrees C, up to about 55 C. But how would you get the solar heat out of that structure into the house? Cover the underside of the ceiling with fin tube pipes? Bury some copper pipes in sand or cement between the two tanks stacked on top of each other? >6/ If you put the thermal mass in the attic, what sort of extra building >requirements to deal with added weight? Again, this isn't the way I'd build a house. I'd put the thermal mass on the ground, but... We would need stronger than normal ceiling joists to put it in the attic, eg prefabricated plywood or 2 x 4 trusses... Not too expensive, but different from the usual way of building houses. Stacking up 55 gallon drums full of water 2-high all over the attic floor makes for an attic floor loading of about 275 lbs/ft^2 vs a more normal, say, 50 lb/ft^2. If the attic floor joists were on 16" centers, supported every 12', we might have something like this, following Charlie Wing's book, _From the Walls In_ (p. 39, Little Brown, 1979): 1. f = 1,200 psi fiber stress in bending, for the wood (Eastern Hemlock) 2. w = 275 psf uniformly distributed load o.c. = 4/3 ft on-center spacing L = 12' clearspan 3. W = w x o.c. x L = 275 psf x 4/3 ft x 12 ft = 4400 pounds total uniformly distributed load 4. M = W x L/8 = 4400 x 12 ft x 12"/ft/8 = 79,200 in-lb bending moment 5. S = M/f = 79,200/1,200 = 66 in^3 minimum beam section modulus 6. Pick a joist thickness or breadth, say b = 1.5". Then the depth d needs to be at least d = sqrt(6S/b) = sqrt(66/1.5) = 16.2" I suppose that some sort of 16" deep trusses might work here, or we might hang the attic floor from the roof rafters with wood members or cables. I'm not a structural engineer, and I'd put all this weight on the ground, if for no other reason than that it would be easier to get the hot air out of the thermal mass into the house without using a fan... >7/ What about passing hot air from the house across pipes containing cold >water as a cooling mechanism? (Not quite on the topic but I thought I'd >throw it in.) Seems like that would work, with say, a fan coil unit and some 55 F well and 80 F air. For that matter, why not use a basement or crawl space floor? Blow up some cool air into the upper part of the house from near a basement floor, with a vapor barrier under the floor. How much basement floor area A do we need, in the above example? Roughly speaking, 1000 Btu/hr = A (80-55)/R1, if the basement floor is 55 F. A = 40 ft^2, 5'x 8', not much. >8/ Any idea how long a plastic container heated to 170F will last? No, perhaps a long time if the drum is not pressurised, but 170 F seems quite warm for a system like this. Radiation losses would limit the drum water temp to about 130 F at most I'd think, if the collector has no $elective $urface. >9/ Say you put the sunspace under a (north facing for SH) verandah. Does >this affect energy collection? (I'm thinking of incident sun angles and >whether or not we need an exposed upper face.) That should work fine. What matters in wintertime is mainly how much vertical glazing there is, since the sun is close to horizontal in the middle of the winter. Snow or a white surface in front can significantly increase the solar input of vertical glazing by reflecting more sun onto the glazing. This doesn't work so well with tilted glazing. >10/ What's the biggest space currently being heated by a sunspace/thermal >mass combination? I don't know... Do we count the new NREL visitor's center with its trombe wall? :-( >11/ Is anyone making them commercially? "Them," as in solar closet and sunspace kits? Not that I know of, but it sounds like a very good idea, especially if the whole shebang can go together like an erector set, and be shipped UPS (rolls of thin polycarbonate glazing come to mind), except for a few common materials that could be obtained locally. >12/ How to make the outside of the sunspace/thermal mass aesthetically >pleasing? Hire an architect, and watch him or her carefully, so that he doesn't make the aesthetics the end-all and be-all of this :-) A LOT of people are very good at making things aesthetically pleasing... >13/ Say you had one of those dinky little Air-303 wind-turbines. I guess you >could hook this up to a resistive element in the thermal mass area and shove >in some heat this way? Sure. But it wouldn't contribute that much heat compared to the solar heat from a small amount of glazing: if the Air-303 were putting out 375 watts, 24 hours a day (which would take a continuous 30 mph wind, vs about 150 watts at 20 mph or 30 watts at 10 mph), it would contribute 375 x 3.41 x 24 = 30,690 Btu/day of heat to the sunspace, about the same amount of net heat as 40 ft^2 of glazing, ie 5'x 8' of glazing, at a higher price and complexity. I'd rather use this electricity to make my meter run backwards, or charge some batteries if I lived out in the boonies. On the other hand, putting a small woodstove or paper trash-burning stove in the solar closet might make a lot of sense. >Now, as I understand it, essentially we are trapping heat by warming air in >a sunspace. Sort of. Not trapping heat, exactly, just warming some air with it. Then the warm air flows into the house to heat it, and the sunspace warm air keeps the glazing of the solar closet warm. The glazing of the solar closet is in the back wall of the sunspace, so that inner glazing is exposed to that sunspace warm air, and it loses less heat than if it were outdoors. The sun shines through the sunspace glazing, then through the solar closet glazing, to heat the air in the solar closet air heater, which air recirculates through the solar closet, heating the sealed containers of water inside the closet. Meanwhile, the sun has heated the sunspace air to a lower temp, and some of that air flows through the house to heat the house. There are 3 air loops 1) sunspace air flows through the house to heat the house on a sunny day, 2) the hotter solar closet air heater air flows behind its separate smaller glazing inside the warm sunspace through the solar closet to heat sealed containers of water on a sunny day, and 3) on a cloudy day, house air flows through the solar closet, where it is warmed by the containers of water and flows back out to keep the house warm. There is a 4th loop in a water heating system: warm water from an air-heated fin-tube pipe just under the ceiling of the solar closet (such as the pipe used in baseboard radiators in houses and offices) rises up to move through a conventional water heater ("geyser") on the floor above and then back down to be warmed up by the fin tube pipe again, in a closed loop of pipe. All of these loops can be driven by fans and pumps if desired, but in some ways it's more elegant (and expensive, initially) to design the system so that they don't need to use fans or pumps, just natural convection (warm water and warm air rise.) This is like sailing vs. powerboating, a matter of personal style or purity and perversity :-) It doesn't matter. Both should work fine... >This warmed air is then used to heat a thermal mass in an area >thermally decoupled from the sunspace other than by this warmed air transport. The sunspace air is used to heat the thermal mass of the house itself, when the sun is shining... Air to heat the solar closet comes out of the solar closet at the bottom, into the air heater cavity behind the solar closet glazing, then rises up and is heated by the sun, then goes back into the solar closet at the top of the solar closet glazing. >(By thermally decoupled I mean that the only way energy gets from >the sunspace to the thermal mass is by mass transport of warmed air. True. But the warm air in the sunspace is not the same as the warm air in the solar closet. Solar closet air moves behind the inner solar closet glazing. (We could build a system with only one glazing, but I think it would be more expensive in cloudy climates, and it would be less efficient, I think, and the total amount of glazing would have to be larger.) >This means we don't give a shit about what temp. our sunspace gets to at night >because we are not relying on it for energy storage Pretty much true. Unless there are plants therein, in which case we might want to controllably let some warm air leak back out of the house into the sunspace at night to keep the plants from freezing. But you are on the right track here. >and there is no means for energy to leak from the closet back into the >sunspace.) True. Except through the good insulation. >The thermal mass area - or closet - is well insulated. The solar closet has >connections to a house such that it can exchange energy into the house. True. Two openings, one at the top and one at the bottom, to allow warm air to flow out from the closet to the house at the top, and allow cooler house air to flow into the closet to replace it and be warmed by the sealed containers of water and flow out the top, back into the house. >14/ Where does the air entering the sunspace come from? >From the house, eg from a return air register near the floor of the house that opens into the sunspace. Or from a basement window or the lower part of a partly open first floor window of the house, with a passive film backdraft damper that only lets air flow from the house to the sunspace. Warm air from the sunspace would flow back into the house through an upstairs opening or window fitted with a motorized damper or fan controlled by a two thermostats-- one to enable the fan to turn on when the sunspace is warm, and one to enable the fan to turn on when the house is cool. Both would have to be "on" to enable the fan to turn on, ie the fan would be in series with both thermostats, electrically. Controlling a motorized damper is only slightly more complicated. The kind that uses no power when it is in a fixed position has one set of wires to make it open more and another set of wires to make it close more. It might be controlled with three thermostats, or two thermostats and a relay. Two passive thermostatic dampers with bimetallic springs, in series, could also do this job, less accurately, but less expensively ($20) and more naturally, with no electricity needed for controlling the house temp. >15/ The physical barriers between the sunspace and closet only open when the >sunspace temperature is equal or higher than the temp. in the closet? The barriers from the house to the sunspace open when the house is too cool and the sunspace is warm enough. Once the house warms up or the sunspace cools, they close. The barriers between the solar closet and its air heater open whenever the temp in the air heater is warmer than the temp in the closet. This temp control is actually simpler--the "greedy algorithm"-- "make the solar closet as warm as possible--with no limit." Vs. only heating the house up to 68 F or 20 C. >16/ How reliable are the simple dampers you mention in several of the posts? The bimetallic spring thermostatic dampers (aka automatic foundation vents) are very reliable, but they begin to close at say, 60 F and they are not fully closed until say, 80 F, so they would make for fairly soft temperature control in a house. If you turn the springs over these dampers work in the more usual (opposite) sense, opening more as the air gets warmer, which would be useful in the sunspace, in series with the sunspace to house damper, working in the opposite sense, exposed to house air. Some motorized dampers are very reliable, with tiny 2 watt motors and expected lifetimes of 100,000 cycles, 300 years if they open and close once a day... Backdraft plastic film dampers are fairly reliable, but somewhat delicate. They should be inspected once every two or three months, it seems to me, to check to see that the plastic film is not ripped or folded and stuck to itself, stuck open, etc. The low temp plastic film dampers can be made from dry cleaner bags and metal screenwire. >17/ What constraints does relying on convection introduce? Warm air rises. So convection powered systems have to have everything more or less on the same level, eg ground level, or even better, the "heaters" should be below the things that are heated. An ideal solar house might have the house at the top, the thermal mass below that, and the sunspace glazing below that. The house should also have a cooling damper that automatically opens to the outside if the house begins to get too warm. This would waste some solar heat, and allow some ventilation, and allow using less insulation between the thermal mass and the house. >18/ Can these be got around with fans? Of course. It's not too hard to calculate what the fan characteristics have to be, in CFM and static pressure, and a fan-driven system will probably be more economical... One of my favorite fans is the Grainger 4C688 $60, 36 watt 10" 560 CFM fan with a stalled static pressure of 0.4" H20 and a max temp rating of 149 F. >19/ At what sunspace temp. will you be losing energy through the heat capture >section of the sunspace at the same rate that energy is entering. (Obviously >this depends on incident radiation.) Well, suppose you have say, 300 Btu/ft^2/hour of sun coming into the glazing, (a direct beam of full sun) and the outdoor temp is say, 32 F. Then if you are not taking out any energy from the sunspace to heat the solar closet or the house, Energy in = Energy out for the sunspace, and all of the sun that comes into the sunspace heats up the sunspace, which heats up the glazing, which heats up the outdoors again, so roughly speaking, ignoring radiation heat transfer, for 1 ft^2 of glazing with an R-value of 1 that transmits 100% of the sun that falls on it and blocks 100% of the longwave IR that tries to exit through the glass by radiation ("the greenhouse effect") 300 = (T-32)/R1, so T = 32 + 300/1 = 332. Pretty simple, huh? :-) Radiation losses will probably limit sunspace temps to less than 150 F, if no selective surface is used, since a 1 ft^2 black body at a temperature T (F) emits 0.174 x 10^-8 x (T+460)^4 Btu/hour by radiation. The outside world also radiates a little energy back at the sunspace. A 32 F outside world would radiate 0.174 x 10^-8 x (32+460)^4 = 102 Btu/hour towards the sunspace, so we have (counting only radiation heat transfer) 300 + 102 = 0.174 x 10^-8 x (T+460)^4 ==> T = 233 F. But I think the real world temperature will be lower. Altho we HAVE seen sunspace temps of 154 F in our test house, when we were actually using the sunspace to heat the house and solar closet... This is oversimplified. The glazing might pass 90% of the sun, with an R-value of 2/3, not 1, which depends on the temp itself, and there's another factor of 0.88 in the radiation formula above, for the emissivity of the glazing, and there is more solar energy coming in if there is snow on the ground, etc... But you get the idea. Hot :-) Nick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:04:14 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: 7 METAPHYSICAL WONDERS FULLER'S SEVEN WONDERS OF THE METAPHYSICAL WORLD 1. The invention of the cipher and concomitant positioning of numbers. 2. The algebra. 3. The amazingly accomplished Keplerian, Galilean, and Newtonian evolved mathematical laws of gravity and variable cosmic coherence. 4. The Einstein cosmic radiation; Roemer's discovery that light has speed, and his accurate estimate of the uniform speed of all radiation, further amplified by Millikan and Einstein; Einstein's equation E = MC^2. 5. Avogadro's law, stating that under identical conditions of heat and pressure, all gases will disclose the same number of molecules per unit volume. 6. Euler's topology and Gibbs's phase rule. 7. Synergetic geometry and tensegrity geodesics--vectoral coordinate system of nature--including the Einstein-initiated conceptioning, discovery, and proof of an eternally regenerative, nonsimultaneously episoded scenario Universe in which all local events are only omni-tensegrity cohered, pulsatively convergent and divergent. See: _Cosmography_, page 118 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:19:00 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Solar closet questions and answers In-Reply-To: <4cglpf$o37@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu>; from "Nick Pine" at Jan 4, 96 8:47 am Has anyone ever designed a double shell dome in which water, warm air, etc, are stored between the inner and outer shells? The south-facing sections would act as solar collectors for water and air. The shells would be well-insulated. I'm aware of RBF's proposal in _Critical Path_. Just thinking out loud. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:31:46 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Dymaxion House Comments: To: 100553.213@compuserve.com In-Reply-To: <199601041926.OAA05972@dub-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com>; from "100553.213@compuserve.com" at Jan 4, 96 2:26 pm 100553.213@compuserve.com writes: > Hi Joe, > I am resourcing all the neccessaries on the net to > build the dymaxion house, albeit a smaller version. It will be designed to > be fully portable and autonomous in energy supply and food production. > A pretty straightforward thing to do, I suppose. > To your knowledge has anyone even tried since the Wichita days? > Any information would help. > Many thanks > Bob Stewart > In the Wilds of Scotland Not to my knowledge. I forwarded your post to the Geodesic group in the hope that someone out there in Buckyland might have more information. Do you have all the references to the Dymaxion House in the literature? Just to be clear, are you referring to the 1927 house or the 1945 house? (I would love to live in either one!) -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:42:26 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: maps of learning there are patterns which are interconnective, they are sort of enegolfing relational creating waves, so they are expanding, opening the field. while other patterns are self enclosing, limiting, depriving, making boundries. this year i am quite sure i will be able to sketch a map of hyper card sort of pattern search that will anable one to learn more in one year than they would do in 5 years. most of the approaches to learning are linear, step by step simple to complex. still the linear thinking is obvious even in this news group discussing one subject at the time. when you read few pages of fuller he takes you in waves from one field to another in a sort of wide expanding wave like patrens, words which tie the tensegrity of reality becuse these words are overlaping jumping over walls and entring them invisibly. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 15:58:38 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SCOTT WADE MARTAIN Subject: Re: DOME COMPANIES 0 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 16:41:23 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: DOME COMPANIES In-Reply-To: <01HZM9GV9ENM8WWIE0@STTHOMAS.EDU>; from "SCOTT WADE MARTAIN" at Jan 4, 96 3:58 pm SCOTT WADE MARTAIN writes: > > 0 > .- > Hey Scott, Try again. Nothing came through, as you can see. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:14:24 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: (fwd)DYMAX DOME Kirby Urner writes: > From desiree.teleport.com!teleport.com!pdx4d Thu Jan 4 18:54:35 1996 > Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:56:03 -0800 > Message-Id: <199601050256.SAA24503@desiree.teleport.com> > X-Sender: pdx4d@pop.teleport.com > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > To: 100553.213@compuserve.com > From: Kirby Urner > Subject: Re: > > At 08:03 PM 1/2/96 -0500, 100553.213@compuserve.com wrote: > > > >To: Kirby Urner > >From: Bob Stewart > > > >Can you help me please. I am trying to build a dymaxion house although > >it is unlikely to the the original design, probably a geodesic dome with > >complete services autonomy and food production as part of the > >mIllenium Celebrations on this country. There is money from our > >National Lottery > > > >Has anyone else to your knowledge tried to make the complete design > >in terms of autonomy. > > > >Many thanks > > > >Bob Stewart > >Killiemor > >Aros > >The Isle of Mull > >Scotland > > > > Interesting project. I've seen designs which try to minimize energy > throughput while keeping humans comfy -- part of the slide show presented > by an associate of James Baldwin at the recent Fuller Centennial Celebration > in San Diego. I'm in the process of ransacking files for relevant > names/addresses. Baldwin the most logical contact, but doesn't go in > for email much, unfortunately. I'll forward this to others who > might be of help. > > Are you able to browse the World Wide Web from the Isle of Mull? > > Kirby > > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 09:14:53 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Rebroadcast of Bucky On New Dimensions Radio 12/29/95 does that imply that the tape-part is wired to the radio-part?... that's thte main problem with virtually all cassette/radios, but the timer is definitely a plus! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 09:19:36 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Tutorial Comments: To: "INFORAMP.NET geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu let's try it, again; didn't get through, 2 days ago. What is the especial relavence of Fuzzy Thinkin'to Synergetics?... I don't see any, but I do have more to say about it! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:50:27 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCK ROGERS BUCKY FULLER AND THE "BUCK ROGERS" CARTOON STRIP "In 1930 the author of "Buck Rogers" told me that he frequently used my concepts for his cartoons." R. Buckminster Fuller See: _Critical Path_, page 262. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:54:00 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Miller Subject: Excuse me, trying unsuccessfully to subscribe... Comments: To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu Excuse me, but... My attempts to sign up to the GEODESIC mailing list has been unfruitful. listserv@ubvm.bitnet bounces from this site and "subscribe" commands to geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu are bounced by the listserver as being listserv control commands sent to the *distribution* address. Please help -- preferably with a workable "subscription " address so that I can later "unsubscribe" without the same hassle... BTW, mail to the OWNERS as stated in the FAQ also bounces... Please email rhm@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com with info. I will respond to the list again when I either successfully subscribe or give up completely... Regards, Bob Miller rhm@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To sign up, send a mail message to listserv@ubvm.bitnet (for most sites) or to geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu (other sites) with the line SUBSCRIBE GEODESIC Your Real Name as the body of the letter. OWNER = majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu (Marc Majcher) OWNER = salsbury@acsu.buffalo.edu (Patrick G. Salsbury) The list is gatewayed to USENET as bit.listserv.geodesic. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:56:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Excuse me, trying unsuccessfully to subscribe... Comments: cc: rhm@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com In-Reply-To: <199601052254.AA007322440@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com>; from "Bob Miller" at Jan 5, 96 3:54 pm Bob Miller writes: > Excuse me, but... > My attempts to sign up to the GEODESIC mailing list has been unfruitful. > listserv@ubvm.bitnet bounces from this site and "subscribe" commands to > geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu are bounced by the listserver as > being listserv control commands sent to the *distribution* > address. Please help -- preferably with a workable "subscription " > address so that I can later "unsubscribe" without the same hassle... > > BTW, mail to the OWNERS as stated in the FAQ also bounces... > > Please email rhm@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com with info. I will respond to the list > again when I either successfully subscribe or give up completely... > > Regards, > > Bob Miller > rhm@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > To sign up, send a mail message to listserv@ubvm.bitnet (for most sites) or to > geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu (other sites) with the line > > SUBSCRIBE GEODESIC Your Real Name > > as the body of the letter. > > OWNER = majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu (Marc Majcher) > OWNER = salsbury@acsu.buffalo.edu (Patrick G. Salsbury) > > The list is gatewayed to USENET as bit.listserv.geodesic. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob, Somehow you have in fact subscribed to the Geodesic list! I just received your post through the list. You did it right. Two things to keep in mind: Messages to the list, and commands to the computer that manages the list. Posts to the list should be sent to: geodesic@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Welcome aboard, Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:41:08 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Excuse me, trying unsuccessfully to subscribe... >Bob Miller writes: ... >> My attempts to sign up to the GEODESIC mailing list has been unfruitful. joe: >Somehow you have in fact subscribed to the Geodesic list! I just received >your post through the list. You did it right. or he might have posted from the newsgroup. the address in the faq is apparantly outdated. to subscribe, you need to mail to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu. -k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 18:07:58 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Recovery of Solar Heat from Attic George Weinert wrote: >A few years ago, I read about a company that was going to build heat >exchangers to go into your attic space to recover heat during daylight >hours, and bring some portion of that heat into the living space of >your home... Perhaps this was Ed Palmer of Solar Attic, Inc. at 15548 95th Circle, Elk River, MN 55330-7728, (612) 441-3440/7174 fax/email SolarAttic@aol.com. Their system may be covered by US Patent No. 5,014,770, issued May 14, 1991, which may expire in 2008, or perhaps sooner. >I also seem to recall having read about a study done on a home in >Minnesota(?) which blew hot (warm?) attic air into the house any time >the attic rose above 68F(?). I seem to recall that the home had >significantly reduced utility bills, and that the payback time on the >equipment was rather short. I seem to recall a documented 25% savings, with a conventional roof. >I am interested in perhaps building and installing such a system in my home, >if it's actually cheap enough, reliable enough, and effective. It seems to me that a system like this can be cheap, reliable and effective, especially if your next steep-sloping south roof is made of clear thin single- layer Dynaglas or Replex corrugated polycarbonate plastic (not fiberglas), like mine. This material costs about $1/ft^2 and it is commonly used in commercial greenhouse roofs, and it has a 10 year guarantee against yellowing, and an expected mechanical lifetime of at least 25 years. Its lifetime can be extended and the attic made cooler in summer by covering it on the outside with a large sheet of 15 cent/ft^2, 80% greenhouse shadecloth. >Any construction details or pointers would also be greatly appreciated. Well, the plastic comes in standard lengths of 12' and a width slightly more than 4', so it can be overlapped 1 corrugation for support on 4' centers. And you want to keep warm house air out of the attic at night, to avoid heat loss and condensation. Which to me means a passive plastic film backdraft damper near the bottom of the supply duct, near the attic floor. The duct itself might be a polyethylene film tube, say 24" in diameter, bought from a commercial greenhouse supplier for about 30 cents per linear foot, with a large slow fan at the top pushing warm air down from near the roof peak into the house. The return duct might be a 2' x 2' piece of 1-2" foil-faced foam in the floor at the other end of the attic, with a hinge on one edge and a $50 Grainger 4Z451 reversible 115VAC gearmotor and some sort of spool attached to the shaft to wind up a 1/16" nylon string attached to a screw eye in a rafter, with a couple of limit switches. You might control this with one or two cooling thermostats in the attic and a heating thermostat in the house, in series with the fan, eg 2 or 3 Grainger 2E158 thermostats ($14.05 each.) >BTW, I live in the mild climate of the SF Bay Area, so I beleive my attic >actually does warm up significantly even on 'cold' days (mid 40's, brrr ;-) Seems like this should work pretty well there, especially in the spring and fall, even with a conventional roof. Some of my Phila area neighbors tell me their attic fans with thermostats turn on in the middle of the winter... A transparent roof should be able to collect at least the heat equivalent of about 1 gallon fo oil per year per square foot of vertical south-facing projection of the roof glazing. Or maybe you'd like a small nuclear engine in your attic :-) Good luck. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:07:41 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: 7 METAPHYSICAL WONDERS & U hey, wait a second (in which the wavefront will have created an area of about 186000^2 square miles, times the usual pi-based fudge-factor (not the cosmological constant)) -- it's E = mc^2; must give attention to the case of the letters. here's another way: E/c = c/M, in line with the Snyder-Fuller Law, I think. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:11:03 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Solar closet questions and answers there was something like that between-walls solution-stuff that you may've seen in Discovery magazine; I'd have to look at it, again, to grok the essense, but I do recall that the compression components were just gargantuan, and it seemed a bit silly, to me. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:28:23 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: (fwd)DYMAX DOME as KU noted, the Dymaxion House minimized some throughputs, but it was not intended to be utterly self-sufficient, or a clone of Earth, or whatever. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 23:33:54 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael J McCanney Organization: Megalinx Communication Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote: >James Fischer wrote: > >> Someone else pointed out the need for 200 lbs per square inch pressure >> to make the thing work, and the foolishness of trying to use a bicycle >> pump to attain that pressure. >The McGill people seemed to have good luck with hand-held paint sprayers. >Black and Decker? It seemed to me that the water consumption was not so much >in getting the skin clean, but in rinsing soap out of the hair. Perhaps higher >pressure would mean less soap, and easier rinsing. Bucky probably didn't run >into more than 0.1 psi with his boat going full speed into a foggy gale. >I wonder why he suggested 200 psi. That might damage the skin a lot... >> Does anyone have the other bits required? >The McGill booklet does have some names and addresses and prices and >part numbers for the many products they tried and rated, performance-wise. >I don't have a copy now. Perhaps someone else can quote this information, >for the most successful systems they tried, along with the actual water >consumptions and shower durations. As I recall, there were only 2 nozzles >that worked well, out of a few dozen tested. >Nick Could creating a slight vacuum (say in an enclosed shower stall) help alleviate high pressure needs to create fog out of water? Just a thought. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 15:55:16 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: page one general features in zoology. In different species and in the part of any one animal the protoplasma differs in its chemical, physical, and bio properties. it has certain common charcteristic, contains 20 of the 90 element. these are the most common in rockes soil, water of earth. average% of chemical composition of animal protoplasma: O 76 C 10 H 10 N 10 Sulfur .2 phosph .3 potassium .3 Iron .01 Mg .o2 Ca .02 sodium .05 ch .10 this numbers can be stored in an index under suitable title. there are things which not easily remembered for now. water 50%-96% of weight of protoplasm. more ubundant in young cells or animal than old and in lower aquatic than old terristial animals. water is the best solvent for inorganic substances and for manny organic compounds. inorganic salts chifly in sea water, the ions of these are important in the composition of protoplasm. the sketlton or shells of many animals are composed of inorganic salts *Ca Co3, Ca3(Po4)2 *. protoplasm consists principly of carbohydrates,lipids, proteins. glucose C6H12)6 from carbohydrates is soluble, easily oxidized in the tissues and is the most important source of energy for protoplasmic activity. C6.H10.O5)x starch plants broken by enzymes befor being obsorbed. Cellulose (wall of plants) the same structure as the above but the x is much largerr. Glycogen C6H10O5)x , x is small , stored in animal tissues especially the liver and muscles. Lactose(milk sugar C12H22O11 -for young the film Industry annual total sales is over 5 billion, manipulating world society into certain realities mostly psychological, and is not much money in comparison to total sales ofEXXON over 140 billion 1985(the prices figure is not important), or with 20 billion propganda $s in cold war times. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 16:39:15 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: page two, general features in zoology. these are fragmentary general features, see what you can get from them. vertebrates body is covered with epidermis over an underlying dermis that contains blood vessels , nerves, and pigment. the land vertebrates have a stratified epidermis of several cell layers. outer layers becom hardened. Bird feathers are dry. skin of reptiles usually contains dermals scales that offord added physical protection. seals, whales store fat under skin for insulation. claws, nails, hoofs, horny pads, beaks and shank covering on birds outer scuts on turtel shells- all cornified materials are all highly insoluble proteins that are quite resistant to wear and chemical disintegration Exskelton serving as defensive armor were present on fossil animals such as the rilobites, primitive fishes, early amphibians and some ancient reptiles(dinasoures). most multicellular animals that are capable of locomotion have opposed sets of muscles to perform these movment. the vertebrate skull begins in the embryo as cartilage. certain kinds of insects subsist upon the tissues or jusices of a single species of animal, but other animals utilize several or many kinds of material.( a case of specialization) plants obtain minerals constituents from the soil solution about their roots. species that summer in high mountain or in westren N.A migrate to inlands for winter. deer in the mountain of the west migrate to lower levels when snow at higher altitude blankets their food. ground squirrels, bears, and some insectivorous bats enter a winter rest, or hibernation, when their food of the warmer season becomes unavailable. many species of the smaller waters and the land live in various types ov cover and resort to retreat, or shelters, to avoid enemies or unfavourable enviroment condition. until about 18c, manscruipts and most books were written in latin, the langugeof scholars- few ordinary people could read. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 18:53:43 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Sothis Organization: Voicenet - Internet Access - (215)674-9290 Subject: Re: page two, general features in zoology. tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL wrote: > > most multicellular animals that are capable of locomotion have opposed sets > of muscles to perform these movment. > i wonder what types of multicellular animals that are capable of locomotion do not have opposing sets of muscles to perform movement. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 19:09:53 GMT Reply-To: Lawrence@lawrodon.demon.co.uk Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lawrence O'Donnell Organization: None Subject: Re: GEODESIC DOME HOMES Hi, I think it probably WAS one of the DOME books- the size seems about right.. Just a thought.. 2nd hand book shops in big cities, or failing that.. There are adverts sometimes in the back of either "Popular Science" and/or "Popular Mechanics" for Dome Kits/suppliers/PLANS For Example; KEY DOME, Dept. PS954, PO BOX 430253 MIAMI, FLORIDA 33143 USA (PHONE 305 665 3541) Advertised a 27 page Book of plans for domes 15' to 50' for $7 (US) in April '95 in Popular Science -might be worth contacting them Lawrence O'Donnell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 17:52:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Dymaxion House Comments: To: Lawrence@lawrodon.demon.co.uk In-Reply-To: <238@lawrodon.demon.co.uk>; from "Lawrence O'Donnell" at Jan 7, 96 7:35 pm Lawrence, Lawrence O'Donnell writes: > > 100553.213@compuserve.com writes: This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is Bob Stewart's email address. > > Not to my knowledge. I forwarded your post to the Geodesic group in the hope He sent me a private email first and I forwarded it to thr Geodesic list. > Hi Joe, > I'm intrigued by what Bob is trying to do on the Isle of Mull and your cross posting to > "Geodesic" > > Could I impose on you to a) tell me which group Bob first posted > and b) get me Bob's email (or pass mine onto his) > > I'd very much like to swap ideas with Bob as I've been planning to relocate to NW Scotland for > some time and Domes/autonomous housing/self-sufficiency/Permaculture are interests of mine! > > Thanks :-} > > Lawrence O'Donnell I'm also forwarding this reply to the Geodesic list in the interest of broad communication re Bucky's work. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jan 1996 09:58:16 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? Comments: To: "MEGALINX.NET geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu you mean, like taking a shower in the Andes -- or trying to boil water ?!? you'd have to let your haemoglobin adjust to it! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:10:18 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Paul R. Kosuth" Subject: hello Hello all: I was just wondering if we are all still out there or have the holidays and snow dissabled me ? I have not had any posting in some time and I wonder if I was unsubscribed . thanks prkosuth@prairienet.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:25:05 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: syn-l: geometry evnthings Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com In-Reply-To: <43925.tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl>; from "tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl" at Jan 8, 96 12:11 pm tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl writes: > one victor, the information about tensegrity is so very little. > is there anyone who wrote about tensegrity besides Fuller and Amy. See _Geodesic Math & How to Use It_ by Hugh Kenner and _An Introduction to Tensegrity_ by Anthony Pugh. Both books are published by the University of Califirnia Press (Berkeley & LA, Calif and London, England) and are currently IN PRINT! Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 08:28:03 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: hello In-Reply-To: ; from "Paul R. Kosuth" at Jan 8, 96 9:10 am Paul R. Kosuth writes: > Hello all: > I was just wondering if we are all still out there or have the holidays > and snow dissabled me ? > I have not had any posting in some time and I wonder if I was > unsubscribed . > > thanks prkosuth@prairienet.org You're still subscribed. Postings have been a little thin lately. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 10:01:46 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Miller Subject: Subscribed now, thanks... Thank you to those who came to my aid... Bob Miller rhm@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:19:44 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: syn-l: geometry evnthings In Message Mon, 08 Jan 1996 08:25:05 -0800 (PST), Joe Moore writes: >tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl writes: >> one victor, the information about tensegrity is so very little. >> is there anyone who wrote about tensegrity besides Fuller and Amy. > >See _Geodesic Math & How to Use It_ by Hugh Kenner and > >_An Introduction to Tensegrity_ by Anthony Pugh. i have the two books is there more more Joy, any way i have this short article in german i think, i cant read G, which shows natural tensegrty forms or i must be rong. if you want a short script i can email it. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 09:58:19 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Peter Swartman Organization: Inter*Com Information Services Subject: Re: Recovery of Solar Heat from Attic I used to install solar water heaters and have been in hundreds of attics. In the winter they are colder than the house and in the summer they are hotter. Unless you have some sort of heat pump, you will NOT get any heat out of an attic. If you remove the south half of the roof and glaze it, that is a different story. As far as heat produced, the best conditions are when the temperature difference (outside and inside the house) is lowest. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:19:55 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Haves and havenots In Message Mon, 8 Jan 96 22:52:12 CET, Mohamed.Tagdi@let.ruu.nl writes: >this integrated powerhead will make possible China's achievement >of full industrialization decades earlier than expected. >........ >continue, the Chines and Russians willl have to choose between the political >advantages of deliberate, but unnecessary, prolongation of a class struggle >between haves and havenots and letting the controlled energy flow into their >systems to altogether eliminate havenotness everywhere and therby to >eliminate all basis of class struggle. > >from Keynote Address at vision 65, Utopia or oblivion. >i have thought about sending this chapter to the presedent of the S.U >through their embassy in Holland. Yelsen economical program is >crumbling, he is also an engineer, so i thought he might understand >the problem, may be it is idiotic of me to do such things. but when >thinking about how the Gulf war started i realize that these people >in power have very little tolerance and no respect for future generation. >but may be to some extent have to do with the lack of understanding of >what is envolved. i know that Fuller said that politician can do nothing >but is that 100% sure. >Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:31:43 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: page two, general features in zoology. In Message Sun, 07 Jan 1996 18:53:43 +0000 (GMT), Sothis writes: >tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL wrote: >> > >> most multicellular animals that are capable of locomotion have opposed sets >> of muscles to perform these movment. >> >i wonder what types of multicellular animals that are capable of locomotion >do not have opposing sets of muscles to perform movement. not zoologist, but it might be related to vertical standing animals , they have stronger support than quadropels, or i ma making worst mistake personally i am trying to get some relation of groups of phenomenas, i am not planning to be biologiest. tag ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 20:46:52 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: George Weinert Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory Subject: Re: Recovery of Solar Heat from Attic Thanks for the response. In article <4ckb0e$gr@bart.ee.vill.edu>, nick@bart.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote: >George Weinert wrote: > >>A few years ago, I read about a company that was going to build heat >>exchangers to go into your attic space to recover heat during daylight >>hours, and bring some portion of that heat into the living space of >>your home... > >Perhaps this was Ed Palmer of Solar Attic, Inc. at 15548 95th Circle, Elk >River, MN 55330-7728, (612) 441-3440/7174 fax/email SolarAttic@aol.com. Their >system may be covered by US Patent No. 5,014,770, issued May 14, 1991, >which may expire in 2008, or perhaps sooner. > After reading the patent abstract, yes--this was the company I had vaguely remembered. Unfortunately, the invention described is an air-to-liquid heat exchanger, I was hoping to use an air-to-air heat exchanger. I thought this would avoid two problems. First, no worries about freezing or leaking in the attic. Second, no direct venting of unfiltered attic air into the 'clean' house interior. I realize that this would probably have lower efficiency, but I thought that this would probably be offset by the inherent reliability of an air only system. For simplicities sake (and 'cause I'm too cheap :-) ), I'm not currently considering thermal storage either (I'm willing to waste 'excess' heat during the day). >>I also seem to recall having read about a study done on a home in >>Minnesota(?) which blew hot (warm?) attic air into the house any time >>the attic rose above 68F(?). I seem to recall that the home had >>significantly reduced utility bills, and that the payback time on the >>equipment was rather short. > >I seem to recall a documented 25% savings, with a conventional roof. > Any more information on this (or a pointer?). I'm interested in how they implemented this. Heck, I might even get out of the house and look this up in the library (shudder!) if anyone has a reference on this :-). This is closer to what I had in mind: conventional roof, no thermal storage, no external collectors, and air as the working fluid. >>I am interested in perhaps building and installing such a system in my home, >>if it's actually cheap enough, reliable enough, and effective. > [interesting stuff on converting your south facing roof into a transparent collector snipped] Unfortunately, re-roofing my southern exposure with transparent (translucent?) glazing does not seem inexpensive to me (even though it would increase thermal collection). It would seem that this would cost several thousands of dollars (I just got bids for re-roofing that very section of roof to repair storm damage). I seems that this would increase the payback time. I am also concerned about putting what might be seen as a 'funky' roof on my house as this might have serious consequences on the re-sale value of my home (I'm in California--can you tell? :-) ). I'm also considering ways to try and remove heat directly from backside of the roof's surface instead of the attic air. This would seem to have the advantage of working before the attic has heated up. I'll post more on this if there's any interest. Thanks again for responding. -- This .sig under construction | My employer laughs at the thought | of me speaking for them. | You probably do too... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:57:53 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: page two, general features in zoology. two related observations: there's no research to suggest that all 92 of the stable elements are not required, in possibly tiny amounts, in general nutrition, and many more than 20 have been ascertained; "soil solution" was an idea of Liebig, c.1895, about plant nutrition that is still the paradigm of most agriculturists, but Liebig was the "father" of modern agrochemical "fertilization", who only recognized 3 of the elements, referred to in agribusiness as "NPK", or just the 3 numbers in that order on the label, to denote the ratio of the Big 3, BUT that (solution) is probably not how plants get it and the 89 other elements. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 07:54:06 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Hands-on Model Demonstration (fwd) John McLeod writes: > From gw.numenet.com!numenet.com!owner-mission-earth Mon Jan 8 21:54:58 1996 > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 21:42:01 -0800 (PST) > From: John McLeod > Reply-To: John McLeod > Subject: Hands-on Model Demonstration > To: mission-earth@scs.org > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII > Sender: owner-mission-earth@scs.org > Precedence: bulk > X-Comment: Discussion forum on simulation to aid in world planning and survival > > what IF ... ? > > "International Futures" ,IF, is the name of a book and several versions > of a model developed by Barry Hughes at the University of Denver. > > Barry has sent me a "B" copy of the latest version of that model which > I have installed on my 486 PC and plan to make available to MISSION > EARTH attendees at the '96 Western MultiConference at the Hyatt Regency > Hotel in La Jolla, January 14-17, for fun and fantasy. > > Although developed for serious study of international situations, > circumstances at the conference will limit use of the model to > something more in the nature of an introduction, and preliminary play. > However, take it from one who has tried it, that play can be both > fun and instructive. > > If you plan to attend, consider the following parameters and variables > that you can manipulate in your attempt to design a better world: > > Standard Variable Selection > > World Totals > > Selected Set: > Population > Population Growth Rate > GDP > GDP Per Capita > Calories Per Capita > Life Expectancy > Literacy Rate > Physical Quality of Life > CO2 Percent Increase > Forest Area > Accumulated Starvation Deaths > Conventional Power > Nuclear Power > > Regions/Countries: > > USA > Canada > Mexico > Europe > Japan > Rest of Devopled Regions > Russia > OPEC > Laten America > Africa > India > China > Other Asian Regions > Other Regions > ALL > > Regional/Country Variables > > Selected Population Variables > Population > Population Growth Rate > Starvation Deaths > Selected Economic > GDP > GDP Growth Rate > GDP Per Capita > Expenditure Components > Selected Energy > Energy Demand > Energy Demand/GDP > Oil/Gas Production > Selected Agricultural > Agricultural Demand > Crop Production > Crop Yield > Selected Social > Life Expectancy > Literacy > Physical Quality of Life > > > If you can join us please R(eply) to this message. > mcleod@sdsc.edu > If you can't make it I'd like to hear from you anyway! > > John McLeod, P.E. > Founder, SCSI > > > > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:25:17 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SCOTT WADE MARTAIN Subject: Re: BUCKY PD VIDEOTAPE Hello, I am interested in purchasing a VHS cassette of Bucky. Please send address to where I could attain this. Thanks much hope to hear from you soon Scott Martain ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:44:40 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Recovery of Solar Heat from Attic Comments: To: "LLNL.GOV geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu I didn't catch it at first, but that ref. to Minnesota & the recovery of " attic" air, any time that it got above 6 degrees, does remind me of the Passive Annual Heat Storage stuff, which was based on studies at the U.o'Minn, although they're in Montana; there was no actual attic involved, however. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 14:39:26 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Page 3, General features in zoology. in typical flatworm- the enterior pieces use more oxygen and give off more carbon dioxide than the rest, it has been shown that the bioelectric current runs internally from the anterior foward to the posterior, from the point of higher metabolic rate to lower. if deprived of oxygen the enterior die first.if each region of the axis dominates all regions subordinate to it and all regions are subordinated to one point of highest rate, the opical end or head, we have the necessary mechanism for holding together all the parts of an individual under unit control. in other words, we have in this dynamic system the mechanism of organization , of the maintenance of individuality. a generation of most insects, in contras with duration of life of ants, last for only a few months or a year. mamals the presence of hair and mammary glands is the most obvious dignostic feature of mammals, but these are only two reflection of more fundemantal changes- incresed activity and greater care of the young. birds as group are the most active of all vertabrates, mamals are the second. an active life naturally requires a high and rather constant rate of metabbolism. most have control over their body T. bats, insectivores, rodents hibernate during the winter- metabolism is very slow during hibernation, it is sufficent to sustain life and keep body from freezing. heat production may also be increased by shivering. a frog lose water from mouth, respiratory passage. birds through respiratory tracs. heat dissipated when necessary by increased blood flow through the skin and by the evaboration of water. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 08:17:16 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: BUCKY PD VIDEOTAPE In-Reply-To: <01HZTI7F09KI8WX937@STTHOMAS.EDU>; from "SCOTT WADE MARTAIN" at Jan 9, 96 8:25 pm SCOTT WADE MARTAIN writes: > Hello, > I am interested in purchasing a VHS cassette of Bucky. Please send > address to where I could attain this. > > Thanks much hope to hear from you soon > > Scott Martain There is a PD videotape called "Selected Ideas of R.Buckminster Fuller" available from the Global Energy Network International (GENI) for about $15. Their address is: P.O.Box 81565 San Diego, CA 92138 GENI@CERF.NET They also have available books, maps, other video & audio tapes, kits, etc. Ask for a sample copy of their newsletter and catalog. Would you do us a favor and ask them if they still have a web page and if so, what the URL is? Thanks. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:05:54 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andrea Chase Subject: Re: BUCKY PD VIDEOTAPE (fwd) Scott, I don't know when it will be available for purchase, but there is a new documentary on Bucky slated for a PBS showing this spring - "Buckminster Fuller: Thinking Out Loud." The production company is Simon & Goodman Picture Company 2095 Broadway New York, NY 10023 phone: 212 721-0919 fax: 212 721-0922 Andrea ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:25:17 -0600 From: SCOTT WADE MARTAIN To: Multiple recipients of list GEODESIC Subject: Re: BUCKY PD VIDEOTAPE Hello, I am interested in purchasing a VHS cassette of Bucky. Please send address to where I could attain this. Thanks much hope to hear from you soon Scott Martain ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:39:51 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SCOTT WADE MARTAIN Subject: Re: BUCKY PD VIDEOTAPE (fwd) Hello Andrea, Thanks for the Tip. Have a great day, see ya later Scott Martain ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 01:52:42 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Yui Op Organization: Pacific Information Exchange, Inc. Subject: alternative shelter con. summerworkstudy seek instuctors and accepting enrollment for big island hawaii workstudy alternative shelter hands on constuction camp coed.ph 808 6959963. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:17:33 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chuck Stoffregen Subject: Class I will be teaching a class; Geodesic Dome Model Building, through the Madison Area Technical College and another called Geodesic Dome Math. Held at MATC's Downtown Campus, 211 N. Carroll Street, Madison Wisconsin. The model building class, course number 804-410-001, will be held all four Tuesdays in February, (2/6/96, 2/13/96, 2/20/96 & 2/27/96) from 6:00-9:00 PM. Cost $18.00. This is the basic outline. Geodesic Dome Model Building Definitions Elements of Structure Minimum System Points 1 Point 2 Points 3 Points More Points Lines 1 Line 2 Lines 3 Lines 4 Lines More Lines Planes Triangular Rectangular Pentangular Volumes Ridgid Shape Triangulation Gussets Plywood Squares Triangualar Cutouts X-Shaped Cutouts Structures Platonic Solids Sides Corners Edges Duals Embedded Duals Connecting Corners of Embedded Duals Great Circles Geodesic Lines Triacontahedron (120 Identical Triangles) Triacon Breakdown Alternate Breakdown Frequency Models Straws and Pipe Cleaners Bowtie Cuboctahedra (4 Hexagons and 12 Bobby Pins) Dogbone Icosidodecahedron (6 Decagons and 30 Bobby Pins) Dowels and Surgical Tubing Cardboard and Rubber Band Polyhedron Giant Models with Newspaper Rolls Commercial Model Kits Popcicle Sticks and Hot Melt Glue Q-Tips and Rubber Cement Cardboard and Staples Octet Truss Chuck Stoffregen Computer Teacher Wrestling Coach Madison Area Technical College cas1276@madison.tec.wi.us Fax (608) 246-6880 Synergy - Behavior of whole systems unpredicted by the behavior of their parts taken seperately. R.B. Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:11:06 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Class Chuck Stoffregen: > Straws and Pipe Cleaners > Cardboard and Rubber Band Polyhedron > Giant Models with Newspaper Rolls > Cardboard and Staples my own model-building has been limited to straws and elastic string, but i have been quite intrigued by other techniques posted here, and plan to try them out eventually. cotton swabs and rubber cement is one in particular that i hadn't thought of before it was posted to the list awhile ago. could you provide brief descriptions of the above techniques? pipe-cleaners and staples seem fairly straightforward, but perhaps the specifics of your technique are refined. i'm not sure how the rubberbands would work, unless you refer to tensegrity models, and newspaper rolls have intrigued me, but i haven't thought of a great way to hold them together. thanks! -k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:24:48 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Class In-Reply-To: ; from "Chuck Stoffregen" at Jan 11, 96 8:17 am I noticed that some of the local colleges here in Northern California are offering classes FOR CREDIT over the internet. I haven't explored all the technical details of how they do it, but why couldn't classes about Synergetics, geodesic math, World Game, etc, etc, be made available over the Internet also? -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:43:50 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Class In-Reply-To: <199601111611.IAA26610@wolfe.net>; from "Karl Erickson" at Jan 11, 96 8:11 am Karl Erickson writes: > could you provide brief descriptions of the above techniques? pipe-cleaners > and staples seem fairly straightforward, but perhaps the specifics of your > technique are refined. i'm not sure how the rubberbands would work, unless > you refer to tensegrity models, and newspaper rolls have intrigued me, but i > haven't thought of a great way to hold them together. > -k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com _The Dome Builder's Handbook_ (1973) has a good chapter on model-building on pages 8-15, and _Dome Notes_ by Hjersman has some good tips on pages 17-19. _Domebook One_ had 2 good pages (5-6) if you can get ahold of it, and _An Introduction to Tensegrity_ by Pugh (which is in print!) devotes Appendix 1 (pp.69-76) to materials & techniques for making tensegrity models. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 12:42:08 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Recovery of Solar Heat from Attic Peter Swartman wrote: >I used to install solar water heaters and have been in hundreds of attics. OK. >In the winter they are colder than the house and in the summer they are >hotter. How about in the spring and the fall? >Unless you have some sort of heat pump, you will NOT get any heat >out of an attic. None? Perhaps not as much as if it were transparent, as you say later on... You should talk with my neighbor, who tells me that he often hears his attic fan with a cooling thermostat turn on in the winter. >If you remove the south half of the roof and glaze it, >that is a different story. How about just glazing over an existing dark roof, say with some thin polycarbonate or polyethylene plastic, with an airspace? >As far as heat produced, the best conditions are when the temperature >difference (outside and inside the house) is lowest. Ah, the spring and the fall... Nick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 13:14:17 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Recovery of Solar Heat from Attic George Weinert wrote: >Thanks for the response. You are welcome. >>>A few years ago, I read about a company that was going to build heat >>>exchangers to go into your attic space to recover heat during daylight >>>hours... >>Perhaps this was Ed Palmer of Solar Attic, Inc. at 15548 95th Circle, Elk >>River, MN 55330-7728, (612) 441-3440/7174 fax/email SolarAttic@aol.com. Their >>system may be covered by US Patent No. 5,014,770, issued May 14, 1991, >>which may expire in 2008, or perhaps sooner. > >After reading the patent abstract, yes--this was the company I had vaguely >remembered. Unfortunately, the invention described is an air-to-liquid heat >exchanger, I was hoping to use an air-to-air heat exchanger. Solar Attic sells air systems too, albeit direct, vs. with heat exhangers. They bought this product and its (different) patent from another company, and it now sells for $519 as I recall, vs $1700 in tax credit times :-) If you are concerned about dust, how about combining it with one of these: Article: 38 of sci.engr.heat-vent-ac From: nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) Subject: Re: Advice Needed!!! Replacement Central Air/Ventilation Date: 1 Jun 1995 04:54:10 -0400 Organization: Villanova University John W. Grooms Jr. wrote: >3. We have allergies in our family. Any opinions concerning whole house >air cleaners or humidifiers? One nice new electronic air filter is made by Aqua-Air Technologies, at (410) 489-5288. The ESSA electronic filter comes in 14 standard sizes, and slips in place of a normal air filter in a hot air heating system. It has a retail price of about $200. It's an inch thick, and it uses three metal screens with two filter pads between the screens. The center screen has a potential of 7,000 VDC, and the outer two are grounded. The filter pads cost about a dollar, and need replacing about every two months. The device comes with a small 110-24V transformer which plugs into a wall socket, and the power consumption is listed as 24VAC at 1.6 VA, i. e. less than 2 watts. Here is the basic filter performance: Typical Ambient Particle Size distribution (in microns) per m^3 Particle Removal Rates % by % by Electrostatic ESSA Size (um.) Count count weight ($800-1200) ($200) 10+ 1,000 .005% 28% xxx x 99% 99+% 5-10 35,000 .175% 52% x x 95% 99+% 1-5 264,000 1.32% 17% x x 85% 99+% .5-1 1,352,000 6.78% 2% xxx 60% 90+% .01-.5 18,280,000 91.72% 1% xxx 40% 65% |||||_ bacteria/viruses/spores ||||_ cooking/tobacco smoke |||_ household dust ||_ pollen/mold/spores |_ dander/hair Average synthetic dust weight arrestance: 79% Single pass efficiency: 33% @0.3 um, 75% @0.5 um, 95% @1 um, 99% @3 um Pressure drop: 0.05" @150 lfm, 0.1" @225 lfm, 0.15" @300 lfm, 0.22" @375 lfm ASHRAE dust holding capacity: 20 gm/ft^2 Does not produce ozone More than one person with severe asthma has told me that these really work, that they have had their first night of good sleep in years, after spending one night in a bedroom with one of these devices. The air filter product is available now, and Aqua Air will soon have a stand-alone console model with built-in fan, prefilter and charcoal filter. One low-cost way of using the air filter now is to buy a $15 20" box fan and mount a 20" ESSA filter on the suction side, with duct tape... --- >I realize that this would probably have lower efficiency The direct air product probably has higher efficiency that either heat exchanger version. BTW, it seems to me that it would be very easy to make an efficient air-air heat exchanger in the attic, with two long concentric polyethylene film tube ducts running along the ridge of the attic... See ASHRAE's 1993 Handbook of Fundamentals, page 3-4 for how to calculate the efficiency of something like this. >>I seem to recall a documented 25% savings, with a conventional roof. > >Any more information on this (or a pointer?). I'm interested in how they >implemented this. Talk to Ed Palmer... >...re-roofing my southern exposure with ->transparent<- (translucent?) >glazing does not seem inexpensive to me (even though it would increase thermal >collection). It would seem that this would cost several thousands of dollars It's cheaper than conventional roofing in labor and materials, so if you need a new roof... How about just putting a layer of greenhouse polyethylene film (5 cents.ft^2, guaranteed for 3 years, easy to change with cheap Al extrusion clamps, recyclable) over your existing roof, over something like 2 x 4s glued on edge to the roof on 4' centers, to make an airspace, perhaps with some greenhouse shadecloth underneath, to try this out? You need some sort of summer venting, or another layer of shadecloth on top in the summer, or both... Done right, this would prolong the life of the existing roof underneath, like seat covers in a car, or plastic slipcovers on couches :-) >I am also concerned about putting what might be seen as a 'funky' roof on >my house as this might have serious consequences on the re-sale value of >my home (I'm in California--can you tell? :-) ). Gee, I thought Californians were immune to this easterly aesthetic scourge, in which everyone wants their house to look like it was built 100 years ago. But perhaps you can do something to your house that will only take a day or two to undo, if necessary, when the time comes to sell it? Nick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 17:33:39 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? Michael J McCanney wrote: >Could creating a slight vacuum (say in an enclosed shower stall) help >alleviate high pressure needs to create fog out of water? I don't think that would help much. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:44:25 -0500 Reply-To: TlineDomes Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: TlineDomes Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: do-it-yourself domes? We would be happy to send you some information. E-mail us your snail mail address and we'll send some info right away. Timberline Geodesics 1-800-DOME-HOME Timberline Geodesics Designing and manufacturing geodesic domes since 1969. 1-800-DOME-HOME - 510-849-4481 TLineDomes@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:46:19 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: chemical quesions hello Dave Sawla, are you there, i just lost your email adres becuse i delete some staff. if you are there i think i am going to ask you few quesion in this month and next. i can even start now. 1.what i s moment of inertia I 2.how is the absorbtion of a gas lead to change of spectrum, i know that the energy is taken to difernet rotation level ( quantum levels) in general can you say how the spectruscopy works. 3. electronic field interact with a molecule if radiation have the same frequency of the molecule. can you say somthing about this to make it clear how it is precisly happen. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:22:00 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chuck Stoffregen Subject: Class Reply to Bob Miller and Karl Erikson I have no set textbook, but am consolidating all that I find on the net, Domebooks, Domebuilder's Handbook, Geodesic Math and How to Use It, and all the rest. Joe Moore, you guessed it, the cardboard and rubber bands are right out of Domebuilder's Handbook. You make cardboard panels with folded flanges, punch round holes at the vertices, and wrap the rubber bands either on the inside or outside of the spheric. Sorry to be so brief, I will post more when I have more time set aside for preparation. Sincerely, Chuck Stoffregen Chuck Stoffregen Computer Teacher Wrestling Coach Madison Area Technical College cas1276@madison.tec.wi.us Fax (608) 246-6880 Synergy - Behavior of whole systems unpredicted by the behavior of their parts taken seperately. R.B. Fuller ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:14:09 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Class In-Reply-To: ; from "Chuck Stoffregen" at Jan 12, 96 8:22 pm Chuck Stoffregen writes: > Reply to Bob Miller and Karl Erikson > > I have no set textbook, but am consolidating all that I find on the net, > Domebooks, Domebuilder's Handbook, Geodesic Math and How to Use It, and all > the rest. > > Chuck Stoffregen > Computer Teacher > Wrestling Coach > Madison Area Technical College > cas1276@madison.tec.wi.us > Fax (608) 246-6880 Found two more references re model-building: _Bucky for Beginners_ by Laycock, available from BFI, and _Domebook 2_ (1971), pages 5-7 (out of print). _Polyhedra: A Visual Approach_ by Pugh (available from U Calif), pages 108-15. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:41:24 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bruce Lieberman Subject: Re: Chucks class Comments: cc: cas1276@madison.tec.wi.us >> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:17:33 -0600 From: Chuck Stoffregen Subject: Class I will be teaching a class; Geodesic Dome Model Building, through the Madison Area Technical College and another called Geodesic Dome Math. Held at MATC's Downtown Campus, 211 N. Carroll Street, Madison Wisconsin. The model building class, course number 804-410-001, will be held all four Tuesdays in February, (2/6/96, 2/13/96, 2/20/96 & 2/27/96) from 6:00-9:00 PM. Cost $18.00. This is the basic outline. Geodesic Dome Model Building Definitions Elements of Structure Minimum System Points 1 Point 2 Points 3 Points More Points Lines 1 Line 2 Lines 3 Lines 4 Lines More Lines Planes Triangular Rectangular Pentangular Volumes Ridgid Shape Triangulation Gussets Plywood Squares Triangualar Cutouts X-Shaped Cutouts Structures Platonic Solids Sides Corners Edges Duals Embedded Duals Connecting Corners of Embedded Duals Great Circles Geodesic Lines Triacontahedron (120 Identical Triangles) Triacon Breakdown Alternate Breakdown Frequency Models Straws and Pipe Cleaners Bowtie Cuboctahedra (4 Hexagons and 12 Bobby Pins) Dogbone Icosidodecahedron (6 Decagons and 30 Bobby Pins) Dowels and Surgical Tubing Cardboard and Rubber Band Polyhedron Giant Models with Newspaper Rolls Commercial Model Kits Popcicle Sticks and Hot Melt Glue Q-Tips and Rubber Cement Cardboard and Staples Octet Truss Chuck Stoffregen Computer Teacher Wrestling Coach Madison Area Technical College cas1276@madison.tec.wi.us Fax (608) 246-6880 Synergy - Behavior of whole systems unpredicted by the behavior of their parts taken seperately. R.B. Fuller << -------------------------------------- This sounds like a pretty cool class! Any chance you're going to videotape it? Alaso, you're a wee bit far from Silicon Valley, and somehow I just don't think this will play well over 'CU-SeeMe' :) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:23:40 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Recovery of Solar Heat from Attic re central A/C, there's a company, Rainbow, or that's the name of their vacuum- cleaner, that puts the air through a gallon or two of water, which gets muddy, and you empty that onto the garden -- no filters. I'd almost won one (?) several years ago, but I didn't know tha name til I went to a vac-shop, where the owner was pushing his main brand, which does appear to get a lot of the micro-crud out, in comparison with the usual household unit, an allergiac's nightmare (see "sleep", above .-)... the owner could sell me a used Rainbow for ~$500. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 00:43:13 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "William J. Shamblin" Organization: News & Observer Public Access Subject: Re: Chucks class In-Reply-To: <960112224123_40166948@mail02.mail.aol.com> I would be very interested in getting a video tape. Just let me know where to call and I will order a couple. Thanks, Joe On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Bruce Lieberman wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:17:33 -0600 > From: Chuck Stoffregen > Subject: Class > > I will be teaching a class; Geodesic Dome Model Building, through the > Madison Area Technical College and another called Geodesic Dome Math. Held > at MATC's Downtown Campus, 211 N. Carroll Street, Madison Wisconsin. > > The model building class, course number 804-410-001, will be held all four > Tuesdays in February, (2/6/96, 2/13/96, 2/20/96 & 2/27/96) from 6:00-9:00 > PM. Cost $18.00. > > This is the basic outline. > > Geodesic Dome Model Building > Definitions > Elements of Structure > Minimum System > Points > 1 Point > 2 Points > 3 Points > More Points > Lines > 1 Line > 2 Lines > 3 Lines > 4 Lines > More Lines > Planes > Triangular > Rectangular > Pentangular > Volumes > Ridgid Shape > Triangulation > Gussets > Plywood Squares > Triangualar Cutouts > X-Shaped Cutouts > Structures > Platonic Solids > Sides > Corners > Edges > Duals > Embedded Duals > Connecting Corners of Embedded Duals > Great Circles > Geodesic Lines > Triacontahedron (120 Identical Triangles) > Triacon Breakdown > Alternate Breakdown > Frequency > Models > Straws and Pipe Cleaners > Bowtie Cuboctahedra (4 Hexagons and 12 Bobby Pins) > Dogbone Icosidodecahedron (6 Decagons and 30 Bobby Pins) > Dowels and Surgical Tubing > Cardboard and Rubber Band Polyhedron > Giant Models with Newspaper Rolls > Commercial Model Kits > Popcicle Sticks and Hot Melt Glue > Q-Tips and Rubber Cement > Cardboard and Staples > Octet Truss > > Chuck Stoffregen > Computer Teacher > Wrestling Coach > Madison Area Technical College > cas1276@madison.tec.wi.us > Fax (608) 246-6880 > Synergy - Behavior of whole systems unpredicted by the behavior of their > parts taken seperately. R.B. Fuller << > > -------------------------------------- > > This sounds like a pretty cool class! Any chance you're going to videotape > it? > Alaso, you're a wee bit far from Silicon Valley, and somehow I just don't > think this will play well over 'CU-SeeMe' :) > Joe Shamblin int ( psi* psi) = 1 wjs@nando.net Systems Administrator work 919.836.5705 New Media Department (nando.net) http://www.nando.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 07:45:49 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Liz Nakabayashi Organization: Hawaii OnLine - Honolulu, HI Subject: Re: do-it-yourself domes? P.O. Box 1724 Honokaa, Hi 96727 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:37:05 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe hopclover@aol.com (HopClover) wrote: > > > >The Shape of the Universe > >copyright 1993 Mike Maguire > >... > Now. All at once, you realize the fault in your question. > It's so simple. For something to have shape, it is conditional that it > exist within space. Under any given model, the universe does not exist > within space, but simply is all the space that exists. We also like to > believe (although we have no way of knowing) that the universe has no > edges or boundaries. If that is right, then shape, by definition, is not > something applicable to the Universe. Whether it be open, closed, or > whatever. The universe, or at least our idea of it, has no shape. Have you looked into R. Buckminster Fuller's Synergetic Geometry? 307.04 Because of the fundamental nonsimultaneity of universal structuring, a single, static model of Universe is inherently both nonexistent and conceptually impossible as well as unnecessary. Ergo, Universe does not have a shape. Do not waste your time, as man has been doing for ages, trying to think of a unit shape "outside of which there must be something," or "within which, at center, there must be a smaller something." R. B. Fuller Synergetics Macmillan Publishing Co., 1975 -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:12:53 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Austin Organization: Institute for Planetary Renewal Subject: Re: page two, general features in zoology. In article <4cp4rn$6as@news.voicenet.com>, Sothis wrote: >tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL wrote: >> > >> most multicellular animals that are capable of locomotion have opposed sets >> of muscles to perform these movment. >> >i wonder what types of multicellular animals that are capable of locomotion >do not have opposing sets of muscles to perform movement. > They use wheels, don't they? -- Richard Austin -- richard@rt66.com Institute for Planetary Renewal http://www.rt66.com/~richard/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 04:36:59 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Pat Shelton Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe In article <30f76f0a.230572250@news.teleport.com> pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) writes: >hopclover@aol.com (HopClover) wrote: > >> >> >> >>The Shape of the Universe >> >>copyright 1993 Mike Maguire >> >>... >> Now. All at once, you realize the fault in your question. >> It's so simple. For something to have shape, it is conditional that it >> exist within space. Under any given model, the universe does not exist >> within space, but simply is all the space that exists. We also like to >> believe (although we have no way of knowing) that the universe has no >> edges or boundaries. If that is right, then shape, by definition, is not >> something applicable to the Universe. Whether it be open, closed, or >> whatever. The universe, or at least our idea of it, has no shape. > > >Have you looked into R. Buckminster Fuller's Synergetic Geometry? > >307.04 Because of the fundamental nonsimultaneity of universal >structuring, a single, static model of Universe is inherently >both nonexistent and conceptually impossible ........... I have seen some of these wierd postings on the net before and although I don't agree I would like to try and figure out what you are thinking. First, I don't think that anyone has proposed a "static model of the universe" in many, many years so I don't know what Fuller was thinking about. However, Mike's notion that space can't have a shape because it is space is very strange. It seems that you are saying that the universe must have an outside to have a shape, and this, I think is absurd. This is sort of like saying that an ant can't determine the shape of an (empty) egg shell, from the inside. A mathematical example would be that of a "ball". First, when we define a "ball" we are not discussing what is outside, only inside or the closure itself. But I think clearly we can talk about the shape of a particular "ball" (and balls can be any shape), whether it is closed or not. In addition, "balls" are mathematical objects and don't exist in space and do have shape....QED something. Your objection to what I have just said should tell me something. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:22:04 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) wrote: > I have seen some of these wierd postings on the net before > and although I don't agree I would like to try and figure > out what you are thinking. First, I don't think that anyone > has proposed a "static model of the universe" in many, many > years so I don't know what Fuller was thinking about. However, > Mike's notion that space can't have a shape because it is space > is very strange. It seems that you are saying that the universe must > have an outside to have a shape, and this, I think is absurd. > This is sort of like saying that an ant can't determine the shape > of an (empty) egg shell, from the inside. A mathematical example > would be that of a "ball". First, when we define a "ball" we are > not discussing what is outside, only inside or the closure itself. > But I think clearly we can talk about the shape of a particular > "ball" (and balls can be any shape), whether it is closed or not. > In addition, "balls" are mathematical objects and don't exist in > space and do have shape....QED something. > > Your objection to what I have just said should tell me something. > > Thanks. > Fuller was born in the 1800s. He saw a lot of cosmology flow under the bridge. I think he was simply trying to disabuse us of any tendency to visualize Universe as a thing with a shape, where 'shape' is the layman's shape. Universe no more has shape than dreams or the English language have shape. If your mathematical 'ball' has no inside or outside nor any unitary, 'all at once' instantaneous existence, it may very well be a synonym for Fuller's Universe. So maybe Fuller's critique is simply irrelevant to contemporary mathematics because so obvious, so taken for granted. But it wasn't always so. And even modern popular science shows like NOVA tend to represent the Big Bang as some kind of explosion, as if we could posit a vantage point outside Universe, even if just in the mind's eye. Fuller's writing is still a useful antidote for such nonsense. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 16:25:50 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe >>The Shape of the Universe >> >>copyright 1993 Mike Maguire >> >>... >> Now. All at once, you realize the fault in your question. >> It's so simple. For something to have shape, it is conditional that it >> exist within space. Under any given model, the universe does not exist >> within space, but simply is all the space that exists. We also like to >> believe (although we have no way of knowing) that the universe has no >> edges or boundaries. If that is right, then shape, by definition, is not >> something applicable to the Universe. Whether it be open, closed, or >> whatever. The universe, or at least our idea of it, has no shape. > > >Have you looked into R. Buckminster Fuller's Synergetic Geometry? > >307.04 Because of the fundamental nonsimultaneity of universal >structuring, a single, static model of Universe is inherently >both nonexistent and conceptually impossible as well as >unnecessary. Ergo, Universe does not have a shape. Do not waste >your time, as man has been doing for ages, trying to think of >a unit shape "outside of which there must be something," or >"within which, at center, there must be a smaller something." > >R. B. Fuller >Synergetics >Macmillan Publishing Co., 1975 call four dimension ( x,y,z,w ) tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:29:07 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Page 4, General features in zoology. the behaviour of the whole unpredicted by the parts. these are fragment relations, i know very little and these come from reading only one book published in 1960 or so. tempreature regulating mechanizm suituated in a part of the brain known as the hypothalmus. slvia lubricate the food, usually contain an enzyme that begins the digestion of carbohydrates. it has been estimated that the respiratory surface of the human lungs is between 50-100 trinuling meters or 25 -50 times the surface area of the body. insects and disease over300,00 species have been named and probably as more being still unidentified. most modes of attack on man are carried on by various types of disease carrier - mosquitos, flies,bugs, lice,fleas. by far the most important relation of insects to diseas has to do with their role as carrier of pathogenic bacteria and protozoa. the insect itself is often diseased and transmits germs of diseas to by biting human being or by contaminatin their food. air must be moved in and out of blind sacs in mammalian lungs. the secondary palate permits nearly continous breathing,which is certainly a desirable attribute for organism with high rate of metabolism. the general high metabolic rate in mammals results in the formation of a large amounts of wastes to be eliminated. the whole skeleton reflects the increased activity and agility. vertical apendages improves the effectivnes of the limbs in suppport and permits them to move rapidly.gives firmer support for the pelvic girdle and hind limps. amphibian adaptation: salamanders (U.S) is a terristial as an adult, but returns to the water in early spring to reproduce. frogs and toads most live near water to which they frequently go to to feed or escape danger. toads have adjucted to terristial life - reduced water loss, epidermis is more horny. chief adaptation digital pads, upon the tip of the toes- surface of pads is rough and grips the substratum by friciton. in cerain species the vullnerable larva stage is omitted, the embryo develps directly into a miniature adult. Reptiles amphibians are prevented from fully exploiting terristial enviroment by three factors; 1 poor means of conserving water 2. inability to reproduce on the land 3. inability to maintain body T and metabolism at a fairly constan level. reptiles as a group evolved means of conserving body water and reproducing upon the land, and certain extinct reptiles probably achieved some measure of control over their body T. reptiles also improved upon the means of locomotion and gas exchange and other terrestial attributes their amphibian ancestors. in some reptiles the nitrogenous waste products are excreted as uric acid, which is more less soluble and less toxic than amonia or unea,the repition body shape is better adapted to land life than amphibian neck is long, the first cervical vertebrate are specialized to permit the head to move independently of the rest of the body as the animal feeds. well formed claws powerful hide legs, the tail more slender reflect the decrease in importance of fish like lateral undulation of the trunk and tail in locomotion, and an increased importance of the limps. metabolism was on of the 20 quesion fuller sought answer to: Birds and mamals metabolic process can proceed at an optimal rate despite the wide range in external temp common in the terrestial envirment, and they are typically very active creature. higher metabolic rates require higher rate of exchange of materials with the enviroment and rapid distribution of these material with the body. turtels descendant of earliest reptiles but they are specialized by being encased in a protective shell compsed of bony plates over laid by horny scaler osified in the dermis, fused with the ribs and some deeper parts of the skeleton. ancestral turtles were stiff nicked, modern withdraw theirs in s shape loop vertically or horizontally. sea turtle belongs to the former, adapted to aquatic swimming by means of oarlike flippers not the only reptile that returned to the ocean. plesiosaurs, heavy body, long neck, can reach 40 feet , orlike swinmming is also land sea creature. these marine reptiles flourshed during the Mesozoic they are extinct probably they could not compete successfuly with teleosts fishes. most abundant of our present day reptiles are the lizards like ones of which lizards and smakes are the most familiar examples- the most primative existent turatara have more primative skull structure than any true lizard limited to small island off cost of new zealand - surviving fossile of 150 million years ago. lizard and snakes are similar in structure, lizard the older and more primitive - of which several groups are adapted to climbing- one in africa have toes which fused together into two groups, that oppose each other like the jaws fo apair of pliers. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:21:30 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) wrote: >> I have seen some of these wierd postings on the net before >> and although I don't agree I would like to try and figure >> out what you are thinking. First, I don't think that anyone >> has proposed a "static model of the universe" in many, many >> years so I don't know what Fuller was thinking about. However, >> Mike's notion that space can't have a shape because it is space >> is very strange.... ...and Kirby Urner replied: >Fuller was born in the 1800s. He saw a lot of cosmology flow under >the bridge. I think he was simply trying to disabuse us of any >tendency to visualize Universe as a thing with a shape, where >'shape' is the layman's shape. Universe no more has shape than >dreams or the English language have shape... I read a lot of journals, papers, books, and random mumbles about "science". A very well-reasoned reply to the questions raised in this thread was written by Douglas Adams in the first pages of his book "The Resturaunt At The End Of The Universe" (labeled "ficton" by the folks at Simon & Schuster). "There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened." I am not on the Nobel candidate selection task force. If I were, Mr. Adams would have a nice medal and a check by now. ...and so would Bucky, regardless of his opinions on cosmology. If the pen is mightier than the sword, and a picture is worth a thousand words, it follows that Websites and Fax Machines are the ultimate weapons. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:21:34 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com OK dome gurus, here's the chance to do something that will result in a tangible improvement in the life of others. Fame is very possible, a fortune is out of the question. I work with Habitat For Humanity (for those who don't know what that is, see below). A very nice couple by the name of Jim and Kate Foster donated a complete geodesic dome framing kit to Habitat, and as I seem to have become the "Department Of The Strange And Unusual Engineering Problems", I have been charged with making use of it. The kit is the usual sort of deal (yet another scheme for connecting 2 x 6s into a dome framework, plans, instructions and so on). Kate and Jim also donated all the framing lumber to build the basic frame, most of it cut and drilled by Jim to the specifications of the plans with great care. But I don't want to "waste" this roughly $10,000 tinker-toy set on building just ONE house. I want to convert the kit to a set of forms that can be used to build Ferrocement shells for a large number of houses. The basic idea here is to: 1) Build a foundation. 2) Assemble the dome frame/forms (it all bolts together). 3) Apply lathing and hardware/wood for the attachment of windows, doors, and internal "finish" so that they are imbedded in the ferrocement. 4) Apply ferrocement. 5) Wait a week or so for things to cure, dry, whatever. 6) Disasseble the wooden frame/forms, and store them for re-use on the next house. 7) Do the interior work. There are a number of practical issues that arise, including: A) Engineering a 100% bolt-together set of forms. A1) Many of the triangles are identical, which allows customized triangles intended to support windows, doors, and such. They can be assembled to provide a variety of "layouts", if we can modularize the design well enough. A2) The basic frame is constructed from 2 x 6s. The hardware to connect the 2 x 6s does NOT project beyond the upper and lower profile of the 2 x 6s, so the use of slightly longer bolts would allow a nut to be imbedded in some of the sheets of plywood, hence allowing a basic "skin" to be bolted to the framework. A2a) The idea here is to allow roughly half of the triangles to be pre-assembled. Every OTHER triangle in each "row" would be pre-assembled, leaving triangular "spaces" to be filled-in from a stack of pre-cut plywood sheets to result in a "roofed over" dome. The goal is to reduce on-site labor and time required to "roof over" the shell. B) Creating "jig panels" to hold wood, bolts and other attachment points for everything that is not ferrocement. This is a tough one, since it is obvious that the dome should be able to support a beam that runs across the dome, but could one expect a beam supported by the ferrocement alone to handle the loads required for a 2nd floor? B1) This gets back to the age-old problem of "how strong is a dome"? The dome kit vendor seems to be very very conservative, as the plans include posts and beams for the support of the 2nd floor, and the dome shell seems to be intended to support little more than its own load, plus any snow load. Stress and strain, and Tons O' Math... It should be obvious to the casual observer that one would want to create a dome that can have the internal beams and studs bolted to the shell itself. The goal is to create a structure that is pre-engineered for ALL the structural work it must do. C) Less complex issues, not related to heavy math are also of concern: C1) The dome kit took us 1/2 day for two people to load into a truck I rented, and another 1/2 day to unload into a storage bay in Millwakee Wisconson (I flew up to help with the lifting and carrying, since I am well-known for my strong back and weak mind). The complete components include 1500 lbs of hardware, and a stack of lumber that is 14 feet long, 8 feet wide, and 4.5 feet high. Needless to say, a truck will be required to transport the components to our Habitat storage/work facility, which is a barn near Roanoke, VA. Anyone have a truck? Anyone know any truckers? This load is far beyond the abilities of anything less that a 20-foot truck with capacity in the 10,000 lb range. Anyone live near Millwaukee, WI? C2) The specific dome kit is a 46-foot diameter 1/2 sphere frequency-four (4v) dome with an 18" riser wall running below the "bottom layer" of triangles. There is also a 29-foot diameter frequency-two (2v) dome, intended to be an attached garage. If built without a full basement, the 46' dome (alone) would have 2000 sq ft on the main floor, and roughly 600 (useful) sq ft on the 2nd floor. A full basement would add another 2000 sq ft. The 29-foot dome looks more like a kitchen or a master bedroom to me, and Habitat is in the business of putting roofs over the heads of people, not over the hoods of cars. Suggestions on floorplans would be welcome, as the sample floorplans suggested by the Dome-kit vendor (Natural Spaces Domes, of North Branch MN) show a shocking lack of thought. C3) Suggestions on ANY point are needed here. I cannot take it upon myself to make unilateral decisions, when the stakes are high. By gross estimate, the use of this approach will reduce the typical cost of a Habitat house by 1/3, while also reducing the construction time by a significant fraction. People may look at domes as an obsolete artifact of the 70s, but if I offered you a choice between a $30,000 house and a $20,000 house, which would you buy, if all things were equal? Critical comments on even my basic suggested approach are welcome. I WANT AND NEED CONSENSUS, AND >>YOU<< ARE ONE OF THE LAST REMAINING EXPERTS ON THE SUBJECTS AT ISSUE!!! Yes, you. We are all we have left. We are all we ever had. We are also all we will ever have. Scary, huh? C4) Suggestions and observations from those who have lived in domes are of great value, since the only domes I have built have been greenhouses. I love a dome greenhouse, but I need vertical walls in my house for bookcases to hold my multi-ton collection of books, microfiche, CD-ROMs, tape backups, and such. Most of my net worth is invested in information, and it requires many vertical walls to store. Yes, I will have my staff scan the blueprints and docs for the design "as is", and I will create graphics of the complex items, such as the connector system. I will most likely be forced to create a (auuuughhh!) few web pages to allow everyone to see what the heck I am talking about here. For those with CAD software, both MicroStation and AutoCad files will also be made available by FTP or e-mail attachment. Conversion to other forms (even Windows Paintbrush!) will also be done. I will send mail to both lists ("Geo" and "Syn") when things are available. WHAT THE HECK IS HABITAT? Made semi-famous by ex-president Jimmy Carter's personal back- breaking labor (that man can drive nails!), Habitat For Humanity is a charity that cons the rich out of whatever they have, asks the comfortable to develop aches in muscles they did not know they had, and creates low-cost housing for the poor on a "barn-raising" basis. We are always looking for help, in any form. Joining habitat is a great way to learn the skills required to build your own home, as you work with skilled craftspeople who are very willing to teach and coach. The sodas are also usually free. There is most likely a Habitat group near you. Bring your own hammer if you have one. Anyone with building materials underfoot is welcome to e-mail me. I can put you in touch with someone who will be happy to take them away, and give you a 100% bullet-proof receipt for the tax man. Remember, if the IRS tries to disallow your deduction for a donation to Habitat, we have an Ex-President in our corner who keeps his rolodex up-to-date. As such, we are the only charity on the planet who have no problem with donation tax-deduction issues. If the pen is mightier than the sword, and a picture is worth a thousand words, it follows that Websites and Fax Machines are the ultimate weapons. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:05:27 -0500 Reply-To: HopClover Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HopClover Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton)wrote: > I have seen some of these wierd postings on the net before > and although I don't agree I would like to try and figure > out what you are thinking. First, I don't think that anyone > has proposed a "static model of the universe" in many, many > years so I don't know what Fuller was thinking about. However, > Mike's notion that space can't have a shape because it is space > is very strange. It seems that you are saying that the universe must > have an outside to have a shape, and this, I think is absurd. > This is sort of like saying that an ant can't determine the shape > of an (empty) egg shell, from the inside. A mathematical example > would be that of a "ball". First, when we define a "ball" we are > not discussing what is outside, only inside or the closure itself. > But I think clearly we can talk about the shape of a particular > "ball" (and balls can be any shape), whether it is closed or not. > In addition, "balls" are mathematical objects and don't exist in > space and do have shape....QED something. > > Your objection to what I have just said should tell me something. > > Thanks. Well, I reasonably reached the conclusion that the universe can't have shape based on the (admittedly self-created) definitions of space and shape listed earlier in the paper. I assume that the part you disagree with is where I said, "For something to have shape, it is conditional that it exist within space." I still believe this. The difference between an ant trying to determine the shape of a ball and a man trying to determine the shape of the universe is that the ant's ball exist's within the 3-demensional space of the universe and therefore the ant can percieve the curvature of the inside of the ball. Man cannot percieve the "curvature" of space inside of a closed universe. For example, in the famous example of a beam of light travelling in a circle around a closed universe, we know that the beam has travelled in a curve, yet to us the beam would always appear as straight. This is because we're observing the beam from within the same "curved" space within which it travels. Although it's often overlooked, this is not something that modern physics disagrees with. Steven Hawking says in an Oxford anthology (I think it's called the Oxford Companion to Physics) that "if the universe is closed, it has no shape." We can also assume that if it's open it has no shape either. (I take it that you agree that for something to have shape, it does need an edge or boundry) -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 02:30:40 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Brant Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project Two comments on you ferrocement dome plan: 1 - I seem to recall many years ago seeing a news report on ferrocement domes that were made over an inflatable form, essentially an appropriately shaped balloon. I, personally, have great reservations about creating a wooden form that will be easilly disassembled once the cement is hard and be reusable (ie not damaged each time it is used). I suggest you look into previous spray-on cement dome projects, with the aim being to find out more about how they did it with inflatable forms. 2 - My understanding about the beauty of dome homes was always that the dome supported itself and handled all outside elements (wind and snow loads) and that the interior walls and floors then only had to hold up themselves. (Essentially free standing structures within the dome enclosure.) Therefore, your comment about a design in which second (and higher) floors are attached to the dome structure runs contrary to my understanding of how such homes are built. YES, I'm quite willing to be mistaken on this point. Good luck with the project! Steve Brant ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:08:11 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald Brennan Organization: University of Michigan Subject: Dome House Plans? Does anyone know of a book of domehouse plans? Can anyone recommend a source (books, organizations, etc.) that I might acquaint myself with in order to find out more about this method of building? Thanks, Gerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 21:01:34 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe >hopclover@aol.com (HopClover) wrote: > >> >> >> >>The Shape of the Universe >> >>copyright 1993 Mike Maguire >> >>... >> Now. All at once, you realize the fault in your question. >> It's so simple. For something to have shape, it is conditional that it >> exist within space. Under any given model, the universe does not exist >> within space, but simply is all the space that exists. We also like to >> believe (although we have no way of knowing) that the universe has no >> edges or boundaries. If that is right, then shape, by definition, is not >> something applicable to the Universe. Whether it be open, closed, or >> whatever. The universe, or at least our idea of it, has no shape. for Fuller even space does not exist, there is only tune in and tune out. a paradoxical way ot thinking. inspite of what great cosmologiest wrote this one is hard to crack ( meaning to understand). Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:03:39 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Page 5, General features in zoology. please consider this as the first page, i learned that i should start with the more complex first, it gives a sort of order. History of vertebrates: Mammals the presence of hair and mammary glands is the most obvious diagnostic feature of mammals but these are only two reflections of more fundemental changes- increased activity and greater care of the young. most have good control over their body t at all times, but some lose control under cerain circumstances.(pats) mammals temperature regulation is somewhat different from that of birds. hair, rather than feathers forms an insulating layer over the body surface of most mammals that entraps air and reduces heat loss. many of other features of mammals relate to their general high rate of metabolism. their dentation enables them to handle a wide variet of foods. their teeth are not all the same shape, as is generally the case in reptiles, but are differentiated into various types. a greater exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide is made possible by a many fold increase in the respiratory surface of the lungs and by improved methods of ventilation. the mechanic for the ventilation of mammalian lungs are more efficient than those of amphibians and reptiles. one important factor in improvment has been the evolution of a muscular diaphrym. In lower tetropods the nasal cavities lead directly into the front of the mouth, but in M they open more posteriorly into the pharynx. the secondary palate permits mearly continous breathing, which is certainly a desirable attribute for organisms with a high rate of metabolism. increased blood pressure also makes for more rapid and efficent circulation. nitrogenous wastes from the break down of proteins and nucleic acids must be eliminated without an excessive loss of body water. in mammals most of the nitrogenous wastes are eliminated in the form of urea, which is more soluble and requires more water for its removal than does the uric acid excreted by some reptiles and birds- approximately 99% of the water that starts down the kidneys tubules is reabsorbed in special regions of the tubules, and the net loss of water in these animals is minimial. the general high metabolic rate of mammals result in the formation of a large amounts of wastes to be eliminated. an increse in blood pressure, and hence in blood flowthrough the kidney and an increase in the number of kidney tubules have enabled mammals to increase the rate of excretion. mammals also move about with greater agility than lower tetrapods - their appendages extend directly into the ground in the vertical plane, instead of out from the body in horizantal plane as the proximal segment of the limbs does in amphibians and most reptiles. this improves the effectivnes of the limbs in support and permits them to move rapidly. arboreal species use of the tail for balancing, and it plays a major role in the propulsion of aquatic mammals such as the whales but in most mammals it has lost its primitive role in locomotion and frequently reduced in size. the muscular system of mammals is considerably more elaborate than that of reptiles, for many primitive muscles have beeen subdivided. this, together with a more highly developed nervous system permits more varied responses and adjustments to enviromental conditions. care of the young the evolution by reptiles of the cleidoic egg was a successful adjustment to terrestrial reproduction so long as vertebrates were cold blooded. birds lay eggs, but all other mammals are viviparous. different species of mammals are born at different stage of maturity when the young finally leave their mother they are at a relatively advanced stage of development and are equipped to care for themselves. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:45:58 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: syn-l: great circles saturday i was in a special activity day for gifted children. there were about 40. the woman who organize it was wondering if this going to work, they brought all kind of games, and things to do. but geuss what they all came to to the table i have placed the staff to build. it was so fantastic, and i was tired that i cant describe what happened. they were really smart, understood very quickly and found few newthings. so i guess it was a strong intution in the room, the parents were so envolved that 3 hours went like a quarter of an hour, they woman asked me if i want to come to teach in their school, one child said that is very nice becuse you can build everything. but becuse there were so many about 40, it is realy hard to get all the observation, and somtimes i do not know what to observe. they all carried about 2 or 3 structures home. what more i can say, everyone went home content, all asked quesions and they were buildered, there was no time to think. one of my best experiences but it went befor i could grasp it. in the night i have a dream about a toy i do not know if it is possible to build. i never get bored explaining to children how this geometry works. one found out how the cube becomes stable, 2 or 3 children thought others how to build. next time i am going to make a list of what i am going to do. any observation that will make this experience a learning one in terms of observation or anything please write back. Tagdi i geuss i am doing what fuller recomended doing in cosmology, teach children geometry rather than watch T.V. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:04:38 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Dome House Plans? In-Reply-To: <4ddn4b$ihn@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>; from "Gerald Brennan" at Jan 15, 96 2:08 pm Gerald Brennan writes: > Does anyone know of a book of domehouse plans? See: _Floor Plans: Architectural Interiors for Geodesic Domes_ by Timberline Geodesics (1993). In Univ Calif Berkeley Environmental Design Library. Probably also available directly from Timberline Geodesics at tline@aol.com > Can anyone recommend a source (books, organizations, etc.) that I might > acquaint myself with in order to find out more about this method of building? > > Thanks, > > Gerry The only book in print that explains geodesic math is _Geodesic Math and How to Use It_ by Hugh Kenner (1976), Univ Calif Press, Berkeley CA. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:45:37 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael D. Adkins" Organization: AEPT-SCT-SWS Subject: Re: Dome House Plans? I got started by sending in for all info I could find in the back of Popular Science & Popular Mechanics. Also book stores often have some of the classics of Dome Building (i.e The Domebuilding Experience, ...). These sometimes have sources also. Do some Web searches. Some of the dome suppliers often have names of contractors, architects, sheetrock/shingle experienced types, ..... After a year of planning, in 1985/86 I eventually built a 45 ft. 5/8, 3900 sq. ft. dome home in Dallas area. Still live in it. Wonderful place. All electric...highest bill has been $120! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:37:09 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Stoddart Organization: Esper Systems Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project Steve Brant wrote: >Two comments on you ferrocement dome plan: >1 - I seem to recall many years ago seeing a news report on ferrocement domes >that were made over an inflatable form, essentially an appropriately shaped >balloon. I, personally, have great reservations about creating a wooden form >that will be easilly disassembled once the cement is hard and be reusable (ie >not damaged each time it is used). I suggest you look into previous spray-on >cement dome projects, with the aim being to find out more about how they did >it with inflatable forms. > >2 - My understanding about the beauty of dome homes was always that the dome >supported itself and handled all outside elements (wind and snow loads) and >that the interior walls and floors then only had to hold up themselves. > (Essentially free standing structures within the dome enclosure.) > Therefore, your comment about a design in which second (and higher) floors >are attached to the dome structure runs contrary to my understanding of how >such homes are built. YES, I'm quite willing to be mistaken on this point. > >Good luck with the project! > >Steve Brant ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 00:23:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Habitat For Humanity Project >Steve Brant wrote: >>I, personally, have great reservations about creating a wooden form >>that will be easilly disassembled once the cement is hard and be >>reusable (ie not damaged each time it is used). This is the basic engineering problem to solve here. Perhaps the solution is to "skin" the 2 x 6 struts with the sort of metal used for "tin" roofs rather than plywood. Many barns around these parts have "tin" roofs, so the material must be available at reasonable cost. No one would use "tin" on their barn if something else was better and cheaper, would they? In actual hard-nosed real-world terms I can see painting plywood with a "release agent", much like one would use when doing a cast or mold. As a low-end solution, I could even see covering each panel with aluminum foil to make sure that nothing sticks. If they can use a ballon as a "form", then the stuff can't stick too badly, or they would have a balloon that would be saturated with cement after the first use!! >>I suggest you look into previous spray-on cement dome projects, with >>the aim being to find out more about how they did it with inflatable >>forms. A few folks have sent me names of people who have done or do this sort of thing. Yes, I will talk with them. Do you know anyone (else) I might contact? >>2 - My understanding about the beauty of dome homes was always that the dome >>supported itself and handled all outside elements (wind and snow loads) and >>that the interior walls and floors then only had to hold up themselves. >> (Essentially free standing structures within the dome enclosure.) >> Therefore, your comment about a design in which second (and higher) floors >>are attached to the dome structure runs contrary to my understanding of how >>such homes are built. YES, I'm quite willing to be mistaken on this point. I can see your point, but I have a love of big open spans with no "load bearing walls" that MUST stay in one place or the other. I also hate to see Habitat paying for and messing about with a big fat hunk of vertical wood, when the header (beam) in question could have been supported by the dome. If the dome will take the load, I would love to cantilver the entire 2nd floor "loft". (Warning - personal opinion below - "rational" people do not do these sorts of things!) Why do I love big open spans and hate load-bearing internal walls? Example: When I moved into my current house, I had only two types of areas enclosed by walls - bathrooms and the master bedroom. Everything else was open, which made for a great sense of open space. Furniture was free to move to places where it was used, so a random pattern settled down into areas that felt right for specific functions. As time went on, the need for a wall here or a wall there would be considered. First, a strip of masking tape would go on the floor to represent the wall. If I could "live" with the wall, I would mock-up the wall with a large paper barrier (you can get "end-rolls" from presses that print newspapers for next to nothing, and they are very wide). The paper wall would stay up for about a month to further "test" the need for a wall. If the paper wall turned out to be a bad idea, it could be moved or pulled down and shredded for the compost pile. In the past 4 years of residence, I have built exactly 8 post-move-in walls in a 6000 square-foot house. Any of them can come down at any time with nothing more than a 10 lb sledge and a crowbar. This means that I have spent much less money than I would have if I tried to decide on a "floor plan" (which is really a "wall plan") before I had lived in the place. In a low-cost house, one must realize that parents and kids need bedrooms that afford privacy, but why box in the kitchen? Can't the owner of the house decide to build that wall LATER, and do it when cash and time is available? The concept of a house as a fixed environment, where the owner "fits himself to the house" is an ugly idea to me. Load bearing interior walls are the first step down the slippery slope to "Levittown" and treeless surburban developments of identical ticky-tack crap. Since I own a house, I reserve the right to decide that I would like to play half-court basketball inside on rainy days. I also reserve the right to invite 100 of my closest friends for a party, and push back the furniture for dancing. Owners of "low-cost" housing should not be forced to accept layouts "designed" by someone else. Design is a trial and error process. Needs are never what we think they are. Remember the Mr. Coffee machine? It was claimed to make "better" coffee than perked. Howcome they came out with a special Mr. Coffee-brand coffee about a year after they introduced the machine? Howcome they claimed that their coffee was "better" in a Mr. Coffee than plain old coffee? Simple. Mr. Coffee made LOUSY coffee from normal grinds of coffee. Thus endth today's parable. (End of insane personal opinions) There is an idea at the back of my mind that that I should convert the design to a "low-profile" dome, and build single-story domes with perhaps only a small loft for reading and "enjoying the stars at night". The cost of that extra 600 square feet is higher than the "basic" 2000 square feet on the main floor. A staircase alone is an expensive thing and problematic thing to build. 2000 square feet is a respectable size for a house. If one does a full basement foundation on a sloped lot, one gets 4000 square feet, which is more than most (pampered) US families have now. I dunno, but I have this CAD software and I can play with the existing strut sizes to get at least an (estimated) half-dozen configurations of domes... maybe the real issue is simply the imbedding of enough stringers to attach interior finish and windows and wiring and all the other stuff you need to make a bare "shell" into a home. Three major points here are: 1) We are talking about low-cost housing here. If we can eliminate even one post, that is one less thing to buy, lug, cut, and nail. I am of the humble opinion that micro-laminated beams are right up there with microwave popcorn as one of the great inventions of the 20th Century. The spans you can get out of them are amazing. 2) The Foster's GAVE us (Habitat) the wood dome kit, the framing wood, and the plans/books. One must make use of what one has. I can only dream about someone donating a ballon-type form, but my dreaming will not put a roof over anyone's head. So one sighs, and builds what one can from what is lying around and available. If all wishes came true, engineers would not exist. 3) Yes there WILL be wear and tear on the wood. Also on the metal brackets. All we can do is take care to not damage the components. I expect that the majority of the damage will be suffered when/while we load and unload the struts from a truck, since this is where things get banged about. One does not tend to be sloppy when working on a scaffold, since it takes only one dropped hammer to scare everyone within a 50-foot radius. My rule of thumb is to use a block and tackle to hoist EVERYTHING that cannot fit into a tool belt, so the struts would tend to be handled like the lethal weapons they are when dropped from any height. Whatcha think? If the pen is mightier than the sword, and a picture is worth a thousand words, it follows that Websites and Fax Machines are the ultimate weapons. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:12:36 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project Comments: To: "SUPERCOLLIDER.COM geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu is a postNbeam 2nd floor really prohibitive, considering that you might want only part of the domes groundfloor covered by it, for that open/greenhousey feeling/function?... a note about the precise nature of the "hardware" that holds the 2x6s together, without sticking out from either profile (!) of the dome, would be nice; I mean, I'm a novice at forming, but how can you be assured of an easy pull-down of the form, from inside o'the dome?... I assume that it's a 4v Icosah.halfshell on those risers; eh? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 09:48:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project >is a postNbeam 2nd floor really prohibitive, considering that >you might want only part of the domes groundfloor covered >by it, for that open/greenhousey feeling/function?... Yes, the cost may be higher than can be justified for the small sq ft added to the house as a whole. >a note about the precise nature of the "hardware" >that holds the 2x6s together, without sticking out >from either profile (!) of the dome, would be nice; I am working on scans of all the drawings, and getting them vectorized into a CAD system. From there I can make jpgs and gifs for all to see. >I mean, I'm a novice at forming, but how can you be assured >of an easy pull-down of the form, from inside o'the dome?... Well, the bolts can be inserted from the inside, and the bolts on every other triangle can be longer to hold the plywood (or whatever) that must be added "between" the pre-assembled triangles, which were "complete" with the skin when hoisted into place. When one is done messing about with ferrocement, one would unbolt the bolts from the inside, leaving the ferrocement undisturbed. The basic assembly tool would be an electric impact wrench. The bolts supplied with the kit that hold the metal connectors on the ends of the 2 x 6s to the circular hubs are NOT secured with a nut, but simply slide into the hub, and are held in place by tension/pressure. I may have to modify the hardware to use thinner bolts, and weld nuts onto the outside surface of the connector hardware to make the bolts capable of being inserted/removed without binding against the metal connectors. >I assume that it's a 4v Icosah.halfshell >on those risers; eh? Yep. The "garage" is a 2v, and looks more like a yurt, with large vertical rhomboid "riser walls", since the garage dome is less than 1/2 a dome. If the pen is mightier than the sword, and a picture is worth a thousand words, it follows that Websites and Fax Machines are the ultimate weapons. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:52:55 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anonymous mail user Organization: Academic Compter Centre Utrecht Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe Do not waste > your time, as man has been doing for ages, trying to think of > a unit shape "outside of which there must be something," or > "within which, at center, there must be a smaller something." > this might seem silly, but what does he mean"do not waste your time thinking of a shape". does that mean that we are constantly looking for a shape; is it a reflex( subconscious) becuse of what we have learned. .......................... '.......................... .......................... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< tagdi p.s N.Pine, sorry i lost all the email. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:40:57 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DOME MANUFS WEB SITES Comments: cc: tlinedomes@aol.com GEODESIC DOME MANUFACTURERS WITH WEB PAGES Antennas for Communications, Inc Verified: Aug 1995 350 Cypress Road Ron Posner Email: rposner@ocala.com Ocala, FL 32672 Tel: 904-687-4121 Fax: 904-687-1203 Radomes; http://www.ocala.com/afc/ ArkaTents Verified: Nov 1995 3856 Highway 88 East ? Email: 74353.2767@compuserve.com Mena, AR 71953 Tel:800-842-8338; 810-989-9500 Fax: Dome tents; http://www.homepage.com/mall/arkatent/ Cascade Domes (IMS, Inc.) Verified: Jan 1996 4953 Parsons Ave. ? Email: ims@domes.com Eugene, OR 97402 Tel: 503-461-3502 Fax: 503-461-3502 Dome Kits, Aluminum frames; $12 for catalog; http://domes.com/ Dome Technology Co. Verified: Oct 1995 3007 E. 49th St ? Email: N. Idaho Falls, ID 83401 Tel: 208-529-0833 Fax: 208-529-0854 Concrete http://www.netib.com/manufacturing/dome/page1.html Domespace Co. Verified: Oct 1995 510 East 80th St, Suite 5-B ? http://www.branch.com/dome/dome.html New York, NY 10021 Tel:212-517-7920 Fax: 212-861-9793 Wood Envisioneering Verified: Oct 1995 _____?________ Richard Lalonde E-Mail:envision@ottawa.net _________?___________ Tel: Fax: Triodetic components; domes, trusses, etc. http://www.ottawa.net/~envision/ Growing Spaces, Inc. Verified: Oct 1995 P.O.Box 7052 Michael Rader E-Mail: michael@dnaco.net Aspen, CO 81611 Tel: 800-753-9333; 303-923-5713 Fax: Greenhouses http://www.dnaco.net/~michael/growing-spaces/ KingDomes Verified: Jun 1995 P.O. Box 427980 E. Thorstein http://www.mmedia.is/kingdome Houston, TX 77098 Tel: Fax: EDC Booklet $30 (European design, 163 solutions, kits, math) Lundahl Scientific Verified: Oct 1995 ________?_________ ? E-Mail: que@srv.net Idaho Falls, ID 83401 Tel: Fax: http://snake.srv.net/~que/index.html -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:34:15 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Blaine DAmico Subject: Re: DOME MANUFS WEB SITES In-Reply-To: <9601171641.aa10566@inside.cruzio.com> I've said it before and I'll say it again. I greatly appreciate all of the information that Joe has collected and diseminated. I hit several of these sites immediately and was quite glad I did. Thanks again Joe. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:19:57 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Dome House Plans? not strictly the only book (in print); any text that includes spherical trig.is worthwhile! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 10:55:23 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Habitat For Humanity Project Comments: To: "ubvm.bitnet synergetics-l"@teleport.com that's a good rule, to use block & tackle for any not-small stuff; does that mean that you have to have a derrick, centrally?... could never hurt! as for the wall plan, how hard is it to HANG walls by cables, or even wood in tension (I know; dovetails), from a few round vertices of the dome?... recall Bucky's 12-guyed shelf a-floating.... I love glulams, two, but it's an interesting problem to add this stuff without weakening the dome; a simpler problem is to imagine dividing a dome-topped silo divided into lots of cylindrical stories, since the theoretical strength is the same as for the basic half-dome (but this is just gedanken out loud .-) ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: TlineDomes Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: TlineDomes Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Dome House Plans? Just a small correction. Our e-mail address is TLineDomes@aol.com. E-mail us for some free information or call for our catalog package - $12 (color photos, floor plans, assembly instructions, prices, etc), or $22 for our catalog and video package. Timberline Geodesics Designing and manufacturing geodesic domes since 1969. 1-800-DOME-HOME - 510-849-4481 TLineDomes@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:31:06 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dawie Venter Organization: Denel Informatics, Cape Regional Office Subject: HELP: FIBREGLASS GEODESIC DOME I m interested in building a 4.5 metre radius geodesic dome, to be used as a seaside holiday cottage. My dome building experience is fairly comprehensive, ranging from timber frame- to ferrocement structures. Based on this experience, I ve reached the conclusion that the most suitable (do it yourself) material for building geodesic domes for local (Cape Town, South African) conditions, must be fibreglass. The idea is to manufacture lightweight fibreglass triangles, bolting together to form the dome structure. Sealant between the triangles will be applied externally during the construction process. Making the triangular component moulds is an easy enough task, but I require assistance in figuring out the glass/resin layer and lay-up configuration for the triangular panels. The structure must be able withstand wind loads of up to 60 knot gusts at times. Has anybody done any work in this direction, or possibly suggest further reading? Regards David Venter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 07:33:44 -0800 Reply-To: ud501@freenet.victoria.bc.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Denis F. Blue" Subject: Re: World Scientists Warning to Humanity Bill Paton : "I agree with you in many points. I think that the Scientists are falling into one of the great traps that we all fall into: that of trying to " strike fear into the hearts of mere mortals". By making us afraid of the coming hordes, they create a negative approach so that all we do are against the poor and think, Too bad, but better them than me. " ............................. Good point Bill: 'divide and conquer'. ............................. Bill Paton :" Bucky's approach is truly workable, especially when he pointed out that in rich countries, the population growth can reach zero, which increases the stability." ............................. Population growth in poverty stricken areas is about zero too. It's only as things begin to improve for people that there's a short-term population increase . That short-term population growth now being experienced in the developing countries is a measure of success, particularly in terms of increasing the longevity of the people. As poverty is eradicated by raising living standards, all humanity can be taken through the "demographic transition". ............................. Bill Paton: " However, I posted it" (the Warning) " to show more about the environmental reasons that we have to be concerned. Things like the Ozone layer losses (which I believe to be creating problems such as the hurricanes we are experiencing now) are so serious, yet we are denying that cars and the like are causing any problems. It may be too late when we finally admit the truth to ourselves. I believe things like the internet, which are non-advertiser based (largely) can allow people to share ideas, concepts and solutions in a very successful manner." ............................. I agree that the scientists who issued the "Warning" are trying to scare people into taking some action on many legitimate issues raised. Unfortunately they're not being too helpful in the options they've proffered. Looking at their numbers, perhaps it's this prestigious group's lack of demographers and anticipatory design scientists(!) that's to blame for their sense of helplessness in the face of these challenges. Your hope for the Internet, as a forum to share concepts and solutions, is one I too share.We need a place to raise issues , present our cases, and counter arguments. Be the issues population, pollution, or priorities for research and industrial production, all need to be discussed in the widest, and most accessible, forum possible. The major limitation of the Internet, which we current users must keep in mind, is that it's still a forum for the relatively few. Much like the World Game, it requires a 'committee of the whole' Earth before it can truly acquire the legitimacy to speak for humanity's aspirations. Until the time we achieve that wholeness, we on the Internet can work towards accommodating our expanding numbers and refining with it with mechanisms for translation, discussion , simulation, consensus, implementation and other necessary infrastructures. Denis Blue -- ### ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:45:57 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Lewis Subject: Re: HELP: FIBREGLASS GEODESIC DOME Having built a wooden dome and read lots of patents and other info, it seems to me that your sealing problem is non-trivial. The commercial systems I've seen have seem to have interlocking flanges as well as sealants. If you don't want to disassemble it later, you could seal the top of each seam with fiberglass tape and resin to make a one-piece final structure like the old DynaDome system. Perhaps someone can advise you on the expansion characteristics of various fiberglass formulations to help determine whether expansion and contraction forces will break the sealed seams. You also need to consider the reinforcement around the holes used as pass-throughs for the joining bolts. Either large washers bonded in or perimeters of metal bonded in to the edges. You might get away with coremat reinforcement, but I doubt it. Good luck. Andy Lewis >I m interested in building a 4.5 metre radius geodesic dome, to be used as a >seaside >holiday cottage. My dome building experience is fairly comprehensive, ranging >from timber >frame- to ferrocement structures. Based on this experience, I ve reached the >conclusion that the >most suitable (do it yourself) material for building geodesic domes for local >(Cape Town, South African) >conditions, must be fibreglass. The idea is to manufacture lightweight >fibreglass triangles, bolting >together to form the dome structure. Sealant between the triangles will be >applied externally during >the construction process. Making the triangular component moulds is an easy >enough task, but >I require assistance in figuring out the glass/resin layer and lay-up >configuration for the triangular >panels. The structure must be able withstand wind loads of up to 60 knot gusts >at times. >Has anybody done any work in this direction, or possibly suggest further >reading? > >Regards >David Venter > > __________________________________________________________ Andy Lewis Mission Critical, Inc. voice: 608-233-8000 fax: 608-233-9700 e-mail: alewis@msn.fullfeed.com WWW: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/~alewis/ __________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:21:02 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steven L Combs Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA Subject: Is Hell Deep Enough? After trying to be upbeat in response to the "end is near" posts a while back, I find myself so sickened by the ongoing slaughter of European muslims that I can't help but wonder if there is a deep enough pit in hell to contain the souls of these racist butchers. My brother explained the dissolution of the Soviet Union to me several years ago in terms of a long-range plan to exterminate a muslim population that, left unchecked, threatened to grow into a political majority. At the time I chuckled and dismissed it. But the scorched-earth policy currently being employed in Chechnya and the complicity of the West in allowing unilaterally unarmed muslims in Bosnia to be plowed into mass graves shows that he was right. Had the Soviets simply executed muslims in Stalinist style, the world would never have stood for it. So we have been treated to this fairy tale of "free" states battling over "border disputes". But as the bodies of muslim children stack up, the communists are quietly being put back into power. This has been done with massive amounts of US assistance including money, ground forces, and political fig leaves for all. I don't relish the prospect of living in a fundamentalist muslim state, but I can't believe that systematic slaughter of innocents was our only option. Must this scenario be repeated? I fear that if the holier-than-thou political/religious leaders of the more fundamentalist muslim peoples can't find some middle ground with the West then they are dooming their people to more massacres at the hands of pigs too hideous to be adequately debased with words. Why didn't we just nuke Serbia into a fiery hell when there was still time? Oh yeah, I remember, we're afraid of muslims. "Some of the Sneeches had stars on their bellies and some did not..." Too Sickened To Care If I Ramble, Steven Combs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 21:09:11 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: larry mintz Organization: CiteNet Telecom - Commercial Internet Service Subject: Synergia -Bucky Fuller Software for Windows Synergia: The hypertext version of the Operating Manual For The Spaceship Earth with other goodies! *Can view multiple chapters and follow links in each chapter simultaneously. * Comes with a Database Diary *Can use a modem * Comes with new material. * Nice graphics too! * An electronic address book too. Can store text and graphics. Price :$49.95 CDN. Student with card $24.95 Requirements: 386/33 or greater CPU 4 Megs RAM 10 Megs Hard disk space 1 2.5 inch disk drive Interested? Send cash,cheque, or MO to Larry Mintz c/o Geodesic Software 6625 Mackle Road #604 Montreal H4W 2Z8 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:59:03 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rob Zook Organization: Informix Software, Inc. Menlo Park, CA 94025 Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe HopClover wrote: > curvature of the inside of the ball. Man cannot percieve the "curvature" > of space inside of a closed universe. For example, in the famous example Why then can we measure the curvature of a beam of light around a massive object? Einstein has said that the curvature of space would cause this phenomina. Thereby, implying that space may have a shape. Do you think Einstein was wrong about this? Rob Zook ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:57:36 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: NETWORKING BOOK THE NETWORKING BOOK: PEOPLE CONNECTING WITH PEOPLE By Jessica Lipnack and Jeffrey Stamps Published in London by Routledge & Kegan Paul (1986), ISBN: 0-7102-0976-2 TABLE OF CONTENTS FOREWORD BY R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER <--- http://www.tiac.net/biz/tni/books/netbk_fore.html PREFACE ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS 1. DISCOVERING NETWORKING A. What is a network? B. Networks as organization C. Making connections D. Global networking E. Discovering the invisible planet 2. ONE VERY SPECIAL NETWORK: THE BOSTON WOMEN'S HEALTH BOOK COLLECTIVE A. Why a women's health movement? B. Making history 3. NETWORKING IN PRACTICE A. Connections 84 B. Networking abilities for jobs C. Networking Arthur D. Little-style D. A society of professionals 4. CARETAKERS OF THE PLANET A. Environment B. Appropriate technology 5. STRUGGLES FOR THE BASICS A. Indians B. Blacks C. Women D. Networking for peace E. A network of nations F. Peacing 6. INNER NETWORKING A. Searching B. Personal growth C. Spiritual growth D. One working spiritual network 7. NETWORKING WITH COMPUTERS A. Electronic networking B. Electronic education C. The year 2000 8. GLOBAL MIND A. Future making B. Global networking, global mind 9. A NETWORK MODEL A. The structure of networks B. The process of networking 10. EVOLVING NETWORKS A. General systems B. General network theory C. GST and GNT D. Convening an information philosophy E. Shifting worldviews F. Information reality G. Transformation H. Emergent evolution I. The future NETWORK DIRECTORY INDEX ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Networking Institute, Inc. (TNI) Email: info@netage.com 505 Waltham Street Web: http://www.netage.com West Newton, MA 02165 USA Voice: 617-965-3340; Fax: 617-965-2341 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 23:01:52 -0500 Reply-To: HopClover Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HopClover Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe Rob Zook wrote: >HopClover wrote: >> curvature of the inside of the ball. Man cannot percieve the "curvature" >> of space inside of a closed universe. For example, in the famous example > > Why then can we measure the curvature of a beam of light around a massive >object? Einstein has said that the curvature of space would cause this >phenomina. Thereby, implying that space may have a shape. Do you think >Einstein was wrong about this? > > Rob Zook Not at all. Actually what I'm talking about is mostly Einstein's idea. I was a bit careless when I used the word "percieve". There's a difference between being able to percieve something and being able to measure it. We could measure the curvature of space even though it would "look" straight to us. Just like we can measure the curvature of the beam of light. We don't actually see the light as being curved. Let me quote Eric Chaisson, he can explain it better than I: "To grasp the essence of the cosmological principle, consider a sphere again. It can be any sphere, so let it be Earth. Imagine ourselves at some desolate location on Earth's surface, for instance, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. To validate this analogy, we must confine ourselves to two dimensions of space; we can look east or west, and north or south, but we cannot look up or down. This is the life of a fictional "flatlander" -a person who can visualize only two dimensions of space. Perceiving our surroundings, we note a very definite horizon everywhere. The surface SEEMS flat and pretty much identical in all directions (even though we know it is really curved). Accordingly, we might gain the impression of being at the center of something. Bur we are not really at the center of the Earth's surface at all. There is no center on the surface of a sphere. That is the crux of the cosmological principle: there is no preferred, special, or central location on the surface of a sphere. ...Indeed, if our spherical analogy is valid, then there is no center in the Universe. Nor is there any edge or boundary. A "flatlander" roaming forever on the surface of a three-dimensional sphere seems completely analogous to a space traveler (or any radiation) voyaging through the four-dimensional Universe. Neither ever reaches a boundary or an edge. Proceeding far enough in a given direction on the surface of the sphere, the traveler (or the radiation) would eventually return to the starting poin, just as Magellan's crew proved long ago by circumnavigating the Earth." -Eric Chaisson, "Relatively Speaking" Copyright 1988 Dr. Eric J Chaisson, published by W W Norton & Company New York, London Btw, there's an article in this year's January Scientific American that mentions how a mathmetician could in theory figure out a "shape" to the universe by making a 10-dimensional model out of it. I don't understand it, but I guess it'd be the same idea as a 'flatlander' mathmetician making a 3-dimensional model of his sphere. (even though he lives in a 2-dimensional world) -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:44:14 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Yui Op Organization: Pacific Information Exchange, Inc. Subject: summer alterative shelter camp we will build a student designed cabin and land scape lot in puna hawaii this summer accepting enrollment and volunteers like to build and camp in rain forest charlie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:10:50 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: summer alterative shelter camp In-Reply-To: <4do77e$4if@rigel.pixi.com>; from "Yui Op" at Jan 19, 96 1:44 pm Yui Op writes: > we will build a student designed cabin and land scape lot in puna hawaii > this summer accepting enrollment and volunteers like to build and camp in > rain forest charlie Is the cabin going to be a geodesic dome, and if so, could you post some details of your proposed design (diameter, frequency, materials, etc)? Are you designing it yourself or is it a commercial kit? Could you post some details about your organization, such as name, address, officers, staff, finances, etc, or are you an informal group? How about your phone and/or fax #'s; a web page address? Are you a for-profit or non-profit company? -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 10:49:33 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Dymaxion House Comments: To: Bob Stewart <100553.213@compuserve.com> In-Reply-To: <960120130449_100553.213_EHK82-1@CompuServe.COM>; from "Bob Stewart" at Jan 20, 96 8:04 am Bob Stewart writes: > Hi Joe, > I'm replying again to your comments on the Dymaxion house literature. > If you know of this > could you let me have any details? > Thanks > Bob Here's some quick references (I am hoping to pull together a more comprehensive list later): _Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller_, pages 128-41 and 35-7 _Inventions_, pages 95-126 U.S. Patent Application # ?, "Dymaxion House (Wichita)", dated 3-16-46 BFI newsletter "Trimtab", Autumn 1992 (vol 7, #2), pages 6a-d (special supplement) The house is located at the Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village Dearborn, MI See also "Trimtab", Summer 1992 (vol7, #1), pages 6-9 and "trimtab", Spring 1992 (vol 6, #4), pages 10-11. _Artifacts of R.Buckminster Fuller, Volume 2_, pages 107-276. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 11:06:14 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: syn-l: Re: Jetstream Trailer Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com In-Reply-To: <199601201457.GAA29470@vifa1.freenet.victoria.bc.ca>; from "Denis F. Blue" at Jan 20, 96 6:57 am In regards to domes floating in water, see _Into the Hidden Environment: The Oceans_ by Keith Critchlow (Studio Books, England?, 1974). He proposes spherical dome clusters floating in artificial lagoons. Nice pics and drawings. I've imagined lagoons created using Bucky's Floating Breakwaters (2 rings). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:40:41 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Is Hell Deep Enough? Comments: To: "WORLD.STD.COM geodesic"@ubvm.bitnet well, actually, we've finally got some action through Clinton, as he couldn't quite pull a unilateral deal over the mangety Lord Owens; could he?... it remains to be seen but, of course, Communism is dead; long live Communism! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 15:45:21 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe Comments: To: "INF.NET geodesic"@ubvm.bitnet [ah, could you forward this (with any comments of yours) to Geodesic?... my connection seems to be only one-way, now.] the curving of a ray of light is strictly a local phenomenon of all matter, and supplies no hint at the overall shape, just the density of the local IVM (as it were .-) ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:07:29 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe Comments: To: "AOL.COM geodesic"@ubvm.bitnet [could you, please, forward this; my connection is 1-way, now] ... BUT Bucky doesn't give much credence to that 4D timespace stuff, so that you have to take it with (cubical) grain of salt (see my sig) !! the Sci.Am.article finally gives importance to "duality", which's so central to ordinary "solid" geometry, and is where you need to go to really grok it. but it still sticks with that nonsense about "compactified" dimensions, and the never-mentioned problem of why the 6 other Ds are without time (or, rather, why time is included with the 3 obvious/Euclidean/real space ones. unfortunately, Einstein ran with Minkowski (his teacher)'s phase-spatialization of time with one or more space dimensions, which is entirely unnecessary given a movie (or a flipbook .-)... it was probably only because Einstein lauded Bucky's comprehension of his work, such as it was, that he had the temerity to break with this tradition. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:20:58 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gert van Laar Organization: Euronet Internet Subject: Re: Dome House Plans? "Michael D. Adkins" writes: > I got started by sending in for all info I could find in the back of > Popular Science & Popular Mechanics. Also book stores often have some > of the classics of Dome Building (i.e The Domebuilding Experience, ...). > These sometimes have sources also. Do some Web searches. Some of the > dome suppliers often have names of contractors, architects, > sheetrock/shingle experienced types, ..... > > After a year of planning, in 1985/86 I eventually built a 45 ft. 5/8, > 3900 sq. ft. dome home in Dallas area. Still live in it. Wonderful > place. All electric...highest bill has been $120! > > test, pls ignore ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 16:21:44 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: your mail Comments: To: 100553.213@compuserve.com In-Reply-To: <199601202343.SAA25111@arl-mail-svc-1.compuserve.com>; from "100553.213@compuserve.com" at Jan 20, 96 6:43 pm 100553.213@compuserve.com writes: > Joe, > Hugh Kenner's book is now out of print > Bob Stewart > Killliemor > Aros > The Isle of Mull > PA72 6JZ Are you sure? I did a search through the Univ of Chicago Press that seemed to indicate that it was available. ("To place an order for this title, etc.") LC:74027292 Class : TA660.D6 ISBN: 0-520-02924-0 Have you actually contacted the U of Calif Press? An email address for U of Chicago Press: www-team@press.uchicago.edu I've misplaced their web address--it's here somewhere. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:22:26 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe In Message Fri, 19 Jan 1996 23:01:52 -0500, HopClover writes: >Rob Zook wrote: > >>HopClover wrote: >>> curvature of the inside of the ball. Man cannot percieve the >"curvature" >>> of space inside of a closed universe. For example, in the famous >example >> >> Why then can we measure the curvature of a beam of light around a >massive >>object? Einstein has said that the curvature of space would cause this >>phenomina. Thereby, implying that space may have a shape. Do you think >>Einstein was wrong about this? >> >> Rob Zook > > Not at all. Actually what I'm talking about is mostly Einstein's idea. I >was a bit careless when I used the word "percieve". There's a difference >between being able to percieve something and being able to measure it. We >could measure the curvature of space even though it would "look" straight >to us. Just like we can measure the curvature of the beam of light. We >don't actually see the light as being curved. Let me quote Eric Chaisson, >he can explain it better than I: > Just to keep this thread going, i write few insignificant victorlines reflex is fixed response to stimuli, what we know from our youth is the shapes we had prominent experience of, the most important is our home our school. we have fixed idea of a shape. add to the pavlo idea of fixed pattren the subconscious reflexes, like the response of a rider to his car skiding on the road. Fuller have indicated that the nonsimoltnity is important to comprehend spontanously, and he sights musicians as the ones who have inclining to listen that way. i do not know where that leave us.... Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 16:42:46 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: last part of page5 Zoology Primitive mammals monotremes the most primetive mammals are the platypus and its close relative the spiny anteater. in addition to the egg laying habit these mammals retain many other reptilion charcteristics, including a caluca. the name refers to the prescence of a single opening for the discharge of feces, excretory and gential products. they survive to the present in australia becuse of isolation- believed to have evolved from mammal like reptile - if true mammals would have had a polyphletic origin. Marsupials were world wide during the early cenozoic, but as eutherians began to spread out, marsupilas become restricted. they are dominant type of mammal in australia, they have undergone an adaptive radiation and have become specialized for many modes of life- carnivorous- tsmenian wolf, anteating types, mole like types, semiarboreal phalangers and kola bears, plain dewiling kangaroos and rabbit like bandicoots. in N.A the only mammal present is the semiarboreal opossum. Bats are the only mammals to have evolved true flight, but some other mammals can stretch a loose skin fold between their front and hind legs and glide from tree to tree. flying squirrel of the order rodentin is one. another is the flying lemur of the east indies this animal is not a lemur, which is a primative primate, but belongs to an order of is own. toothless mammals: since primative mammals were insectivorous, it is not surprising that certain ones become specialized to feed upon ants and termites, which are abunant in cerain regions.( over specialization) primates primates evolved from primative, semiarboreal insectivores and underwent further specialization for life in the trees. even those that have secondarily reverted to terrestial life bear the stamp of this prior arboreal adaptation. our flexible limbs and grasping hands are fundementally adaptation for life in the trees. claws were transformed into fingers and toenails when grasping hand and feet evolved. living carnivores are the weasels, dogs, ranccons, bears and cats. the shift from an insectivorous to flesh eating diet was not difficult. an improvement in the stabbing and shearing action of the teeth, and the evolution of a foot stucture that enabled them to run fast enough to catch their prey was about all that was necessary. speed has been increased in most by the development of a longer foot and standing upon their toe with the rest of the foot raised off the ground in manner of a sprinter, which give long strid. most carnivores are semiarboreal or terristrial, but one branch of the order which include the seals, sealine and walruses, early specialized for e exploiting the resources of the sea. ungulates: horses, cows and similar mammals have become highly specialized for a plant diet. this has entailed a considerabble change in their dentation, for plant food must be throughly grounded by the teeth befor it can be acted upon by the digestive enzymes. the molars have become square, these of the outer and lower jaws no longer slide vertically across each other to give some cutting action, as do the tringular molar of more privmative mammals, but meet and crush food between them. those that feed upon grass and other hard and girry fare, as the grazing species, are confronted with addition problem of the wearing away of the teeth; tooth here is more resistant to wear. herbivores constitute the primary food supply of carnivores and protect themselves by simple expedient of running away. 2 types of ungulates: 1. axis of the foot passes through the third toe- forest horse tapir and rhinoceros, which walks upon soft ground, retains the middle 3 toes as functional toes, these are charcteised by odd # of toes. 2. axis passes between third and 4th toe- pigs, girafes, antelope, sheep, cattle retain third and fourth ( even # toes) Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 16:56:02 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe >it was probably only because Einstein lauded Bucky's comprehension >of his work, such as it was, that he had the temerity to break >with this tradition. you are making up this bit, wether he encourged him or not fuller already had the basis for multi frequency time v, if you like, geometry. you have to understand that Fuller was really an intutive genius, saying that from my experience of how hard to grasp so quickly the multvarious diffrentiation of multitudianl subjects par exccelence , just joke heeee. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 10:12:19 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SEARCH ENGINES SEARCH ENGINES (Keywords: buckminster, geodesic, etc) SERVICE UNIVERSAL RESOURCE LOCATION (URL) C__O__M__M__E__N__T__S AltaVista http://www.altavista.digital.com Fast Deja News http://www.dejanews.com USENET News Database Excite http://www.excite.com World Wide Web InfoSeek http://www2.infoseek.com World Wide Web Lycos http://www.lycos.com World Wide Web Web Crawler http://www.webcrawler.com World Wide Web Yahoo http://www.yahoo.com World Wide Web -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 20:38:51 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Pat Shelton Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe In article <4dppfg$8jn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> hopclover@aol.com (HopClover) writes: >Rob Zook wrote: > >>HopClover wrote: >>> curvature of the inside of the ball. Man cannot percieve the >"curvature" >>> of space inside of a closed universe. For example, in the famous >example >> >> Why then can we measure the curvature of a beam of light around a >massive >>object? Einstein has said that the curvature of space would cause this >>phenomina. Thereby, implying that space may have a shape. Do you think >>Einstein was wrong about this? >> >> Rob Zook > > Not at all. Actually what I'm talking about is mostly Einstein's idea. I >was a bit careless when I used the word "percieve". There's a difference >between being able to percieve something and being able to measure it. We >could measure the curvature of space even though it would "look" straight >to us. Just like we can measure the curvature of the beam of light. We >don't actually see the light as being curved. I have been corresponding with someone else on this subject and I think you two are having the same problem. The problem is that you can't get out of the Cartesian space that you were taught in school. When you say you can see light curve in space, this is not true. If you look in a physics book that tries to explain this (and I have several) you can see a star on one side of a large mass, the light heading for the large mass and then curving when it gets near to curve around the mass and go to an observer on the other side. This diagram is drawn >as though< space were cartesian...it isn't. In fact the light is going straight "as an arrow". Think of it this way--spherical space is curved relative to Cartesian space AND Cartesian space is curved relative to spherical space. Or, take a "linear" equation, plot it on square graph paper (Cartesian) and it will represent a straight line, but now plot it on log graph paper and--it ain't straight no more...and the same thing would happen if you used circular or hyperbolic graph paper. What you need to do is sit back in your easy chair, close your eyes and visualize Cartesian space with nice curved hyperbolic coordinates going thru it...now switch gears and imagine the hyperbolic coordinates as "flat" (which is a relative term) and now suddenly, the Cartesian space is curved!! Now, if you are a mathematical genius, imagine what sphericial coordinates look like in hyperbolic space! (If you're not, you can do a bit of graphing.) Now, unfortunately, the key to the discussion in this thread, i.e. "shape", is, so far as I know, not a mathematical or a Physics term. But now you can begin to ask the right questions: 1) can something be infinite and bounded? 2) can something be bounded and not have an outside? 3) Can something be infinite and have a shape? I think it is probable that the answer to all three questions is in the affirmative. However, I don't think we know enough yet to answer these questions about the universe in which we live. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:36:26 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: larry mintz Organization: CiteNet Telecom - Commercial Internet Service Subject: Re: Fuzzy Logic Tutorial In article , bpaton@inforamp.net. (bill paton) wrote: >In article <30E6A4E2.1612@olympus.net>, John Futhey wrote: > > bill paton wrote: > The Notion of Fuzzy Logic is of interest to Dymaxions, not only because of > its ability to use energy etc. more effeciently, but I believe that a > Fuzzy Philosophy to be much in line with Bucky's philosophy. I think there > is real overlap between his ideas and the Fuzzy Logic people. Bill > The difference between fuzzy logic and regular logic is that fuzzy logic allows for values that can be partially true. Classical set theory is two-valued. That is if X is statement then the set of all statements would be X={0,1} . In fuzzy logic X={0,0.1,...1}. You have shades of truth. Where in classical set theory everthing is black or white. Kabir :) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:36:28 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: larry mintz Organization: CiteNet Telecom - Commercial Internet Service Subject: shape of the universe I know of an interesting book that explains the shape of the universe. It is by Rudy Rucker. It is called Geometry, Relativity and the 4th dimension. It is explains the so-called shape of the universe using a G-tensor determinant. Tensors are components of vectors. Whereas a determinant of co-ordinates will generally give the shape of the co-ordinates in body of the matrix. For instance the volume of a tetrahedron is : | a b c | V=1/6| a2 b2 c2| | a3 b3 c3| where the a,... c3 are vectors coinciding with the edges of the tetrahedron kabir ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 20:41:08 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: 7 METAPHYSICAL WONDERS (fwd) larry mintz writes: > From cti02.citenet.net!citenet.net!kabir Sun Jan 21 19:48:08 1996 > Message-Id: <9601220347.AA10500@cti02.citenet.net> > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > From: larry mintz > To: joemoore@cruzio.com > Subject: Re: 7 METAPHYSICAL WONDERS > Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 03:46:44 GMT > References: <9601041204.aa21804@inside.cruzio.com> > > > >7. Synergetic geometry and tensegrity geodesics--vectoral coordinate system > > of nature--including the Einstein-initiated conceptioning, discovery, and > > proof of an eternally regenerative, nonsimultaneously episoded scenario > > Universe in which all local events are only omni-tensegrity cohered, > > pulsatively convergent and divergent. > > > >See: _Cosmography_, page 118 > > 8. I would like to add the 8th metaphysical wonder. The calculus and > analysis which were found by Newton and Leibniz. Analysis being one > the most powerful branch of mathematics. Euler and Cauchy added > greatly to this branch to make it a very powerful tool. Without > calculus much of advanced physics could not be done. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 20:33:23 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: REMOTE-SENSING SATS REMOTE-SENSING SATELLITE PROJECTS ORGANIZATION YEAR SHARPNESS COMMENTS Earthwatch (USA) 1996 3-meter $200,000,000 1997 1-meter France NOW 10-meter $3,000,000,000 India NOW 32-meter $ ?? Orbital Imaging 1997 1-meter $100,000,000 1999 1-meter 2001 ? Radar Resource21 (USA) ? 10-meter $400,000,000 Russia NOW 2-meter $ ?? Space Imaging (USA) 1997 1-meter $500,000,000 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- See: Business Week, 12-11-95, pages 111-12. Popular Science, 2-96, pages 42-47. Popular Mechanics, 2-96, pages 47-51. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 03:46:42 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: larry mintz Organization: CiteNet Telecom - Commercial Internet Service Subject: Re: 7 METAPHYSICAL WONDERS > >7. Synergetic geometry and tensegrity geodesics--vectoral coordinate system > of nature--including the Einstein-initiated conceptioning, discovery, and > proof of an eternally regenerative, nonsimultaneously episoded scenario > Universe in which all local events are only omni-tensegrity cohered, > pulsatively convergent and divergent. > >See: _Cosmography_, page 118 8. I would like to add the 8th metaphysical wonder. The calculus and analysis which were found by Newton and Leibniz.Analysis being one the most powerful branch of mathematics. Euler and Cauchy added greatly to this branch to make it avery powerful tool. Without calculus much of advanced physics could not be done. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:12:09 -0500 Reply-To: HopClover Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HopClover Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) wrote: >HopClover wrote: >> Not at all. Actually what I'm talking about is mostly Einstein's idea. I >>was a bit careless when I used the word "percieve". There's a difference >>between being able to percieve something and being able to measure it. We >>could measure the curvature of space even though it would "look" straight >>to us. Just like we can measure the curvature of the beam of light. We >>don't actually see the light as being curved. > >I have been corresponding with someone else on this subject >and I think you two are having the same problem. The problem >is that you can't get out of the Cartesian space that you >were taught in school. When you say you can see light curve >in space, this is not true. Maybe you weren't talking about me, but as you can see I wrote, "We don't actually see the light as being curved." Of course you can't see light curve in space. >Now, unfortunately, the key to the discussion in this thread, i.e. >"shape", is, so far as I know, not a mathematical or a Physics term. Right. I'm using it in the mundane pedestrian sense. Although, I did give my own home-grown definition in my original post- "Shape is the way something relates geometrically to the substance of space within which it exists. That is to say, a stable object will exist within the fabric of space in such a way that we can observe it, measure its configurations relative to itself and space, and determine what we call shape." Of course I'm sure that there are any number of much better definitions out there. >Can something be infinite and have a shape? I think >it is probable that the answer to all three questions is in the >affirmative. Something infinite having shape? I suppose it's just a philosophical difference, but I can't see how the answer to that could be affirmative. >However, I don't think we know enough yet to answer >these questions about the universe in which we live. Agreed again of course. In my first post I used the phrase, "the universe, or at least our idea of it,..." By this I meant that I wasn't talking about the actual universe, just some of physics' models of it. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:18:04 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe >Now, unfortunately, the key to the discussion in this thread, i.e. >"shape", is, so far as I know, not a mathematical or a Physics term. >But now you can begin to ask the right questions: 1) can something >be infinite and bounded? 2) can something be bounded and not have >an outside? 3) Can something be infinite and have a shape? I think >it is probable that the answer to all three questions is in the >affirmative. However, I don't think we know enough yet to answer >these questions about the universe in which we live. "Shape" is implicit in talking about boundries, infinity, closed system. so in a sense" shape" is a mathmatical and a physical term. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 14:39:54 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe > >What you need to do is sit back in your easy chair, close your eyes >and visualize Cartesian space with nice curved hyperbolic coordinates >going thru it...now switch gears and imagine the hyperbolic >coordinates as "flat" (which is a relative term) and now suddenly, >the Cartesian space is curved!! Now, if you are a mathematical genius, >imagine what sphericial coordinates look like in hyperbolic space! >(If you're not, you can do a bit of graphing.) > >Now, unfortunately, the key to the discussion in this thread, i.e. >"shape", is, so far as I know, not a mathematical or a Physics term. >But now you can begin to ask the right questions: 1) can something >be infinite and bounded? 2) can something be bounded and not have >an outside? 3) Can something be infinite and have a shape? I think >it is probable that the answer to all three questions is in the >affirmative. However, I don't think we know enough yet to answer >these questions about the universe in which we live. probably the troubles with this question is that it brings two areas together: 1. visible reality 2. invisible reality and cosmology try to unite the two in one epistemological wep. it may have to do with understanding relativity in creative way, if we want to realy see Universe as it actually operates. i do not see any way out from the Newtonian paradigm. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:06:27 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Hippocratic Oath for Scientists Hippocratic Oath for Scientists An Institute for Social Inventions' working party has drawn up a new and shorter version of the Hippocratic Oath (see below), aimed not at doctors but at engineers, scientists (pure and applied) and the executives who employ them. As Professor Weeranmantry remarks: 'the idea of an ethic for science goes all the way back to Francis Bacon. In Bacon's work, New Atlantis, scientists took an oath for concealing inventions and experiences which they thought fit to keep secret.' An Institute working party member, Peter Lewis, adds that history provides a notable precedent of ethical behaviour by a scientist. This is the example of Leonardo da Vinci, who (despite offering many of his military inventions to the Duke of Milan and other patrons) suppressed his work on submarines 'on account of the evil nature of men, who would practise assassination at the bottom of the sea.' By Leonardo's action the world was spared submarine warfare for 300 years. Peter Lewis acknowledges that scientists have tended in the main to see their work as an amoral and dispassionate search for truth, but considers that in recent decades a growing number have begun to ask themselves if the scientific method cannot be amended so as to incorporate an ethical component. 'Anyone who is bound by an oath such as the one we propose,' writes Lewis, 'has a powerful curb placed on their behaviour. If I break the rules, even if I have concealed my transgression from other people, I will know what I am, and I cannot escape from that knowledge.' (Dr John Hart and others have proposed an amended second clause of the Oath which would then read: 'I will strive to apply my skills with the utmost respect for the well-being of humanity and the integrity of the natural world. Dr Hart argues that the clause about respect for all the earth's species would present a difficulty for biologists and others.) 'The long term aim is that the Oath should become part of the graduation ceremony for students' There are over a hundred eminent signatories of this Oath, including 18 Nobel Laureates - the launch signatories were Professor Maurice Wilkins CBE FRS, Abdus Salam FRS, and Sir John Kendrew, who is President of the International Council of Scientific Unions. Also lending their support are the vice-chancellors or equivalents of many prestigious universities around the world. The long term aim is that the Oath should become part of the graduation ceremony for students - there is not much hope of 'converting' the 50% of scientists already working for defence industries, who have families and mortgages to worry about, but it may be more possible to influence students in their choice of work, at the outset of their careers. The response has been encouraging, even from other continents. For instance, most of the key staff at Auckland University have signed and they have ordered hundreds of copies for their students. The Pugwash Conference in London had a working party on this theme and Unesco are showing signs of interest. Professor Meredith Thring, chairman of the Institute's working party and author of 'Man, Machines and Tomorrow', writes: 'No one wants pointless restriction, but too many scientific developments are posing moral problems by being big enough to involve survival or destruction. Not to face up to defining morality now will put mankind on a level with the concentration camp officials of the Second World War: 'It was not my job to think. I was only obeying orders'.' The wording of the Oath is of course very general and is applicable to thoughful professionals of all sorts. The expectation is that it will provide an ethical framework for the more detailed Codes of Practice within each discipline. Eventually, such an Oath may help reduce the social standing of technologists working in armaments and similar dubious areas - and, once aroused, there are few forces on earth more powerful than social pressure. Probably the most important issue of them all, as far as gaining acceptance for the Oath goes, is what happens to scientists or engineers with ethics, if they obey the Oath, make a stand and lose their jobs. If the Oath became part of a profession's graduation ceremony, there might be some pressure the professional association could bring to bear on the employer. Robert Jungk and his colleagues in Austria have looked at this problem, and their initial suggestion was that any scientists leaving their research jobs for ethical reasons could receive 'conscience money' through an insurance scheme; but this turned out to be too costly. What they developed instead was a fund which people could pay into, that would finance alternative scientific institutes, to provide jobs for 'refugee' scientists. There are now four or five such institutes on the continent. - Copies of the Oath are available on cream card for 50p in stamps (single copy) or L7 for 100 from: The Institute for Social Inventions, 20 Heber Road, London NW2 6AA (tel 081 208 2853; fax 081 452 6434). - In the States, parchment copies of the Oath are available from the American Engineers for Social Responsibility, PO Box 2785, Washington DC, 20013-2785, USA. - Also available is 'The Book of Oaths' a booklet describing most of the known ethical codes for scientists, L3-95 incl. p&p from the Institute. - See also Professor C.G. Weeramantry's book 'The Slumbering Sentinel', Penguin, 1983. - Re the pope and the crossbow, see 'Masters, Princes and Merchants', by John W. Baldwin, Princeton, 1970, Vol 1, page 223. A graduate pledge of social and environmental responsibility The following student graduate pledge campaign has been in contact with the Institute in connection with the latter's Hippocratic Oath for Scientists. A voluntary student pledge of social and environmental responsibility, begun at Humboldt State University in Arcata, California, in 1987, has been incorporated at 18 graduation exercises, including those at Stanford University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. The 20 word pledge states simply: 'I pledge to investigate thoroughly and take into account the social and environmental consequences of any job opportunity I consider.' Nelson, one of the pledge's proponents, says that the pledge lets students 'make a commitment to themselves' about what values they do and don't want to promote. 'The pledge is inviting because it's not too dogmatic. Every student can decide for himself or herself what is required to satisfy the pledge.' The pledge 'makes students think,' says Matt Nicodemus, co-author of the original pledge at Humboldt State. 'It lets students think not only about what job they don't want but also what kind of job they do want. It's a plan for social change.' Nicodemus says he disagrees with critics who dismiss it as a meaningless symbolic gesture. If enough campuses around the world embrace the pledge and incorporate it in their graduation exercises, 'we can have some very material consequences on the world.' Matt Nicodemus, Graduation Press Alliance, Box 4439, Arcata, CA 9521, USA (tel 707 826 7033). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:18:13 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Returned mail: Host unknown In Message Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:36:29 +0100, MAILER-DAEMON@nl.net (Mail Delivery Subsystem) writes: > >In Message Fri, 19 Jan 1996 21:09:11 +0000 (GMT), > larry mintz writes: > hello larry, > > what kind of software are you working on, i just like to get some > information, i am not going to buy anything. do you also work with > things other than software. i come cross a very simple idea, perhaps > is not worth a dime, in relation to geometry. if you are intrested > - it might be of worth, it may sell in million of pieces but in the > other hand it may be so insginficant that no one will ever want to buy it. > Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:40:21 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brady Thompson Organization: Government of Ontario Subject: Re: last part of page5 Zoology Something clicked for me on this posting. The Spiny Anteater is the only warm-blooded animal known not to dream. Sorry, none-too geodesic.... tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL writes: >Primitive mammals >monotremes the most primetive mammals are the platypus and its close relative >the spiny anteater. >in addition to the egg laying habit these mammals retain many other >reptilion charcteristics, including a caluca. the name refers to the >prescence of a single opening for the discharge of feces, excretory and >gential products. they survive to the present in australia becuse of >isolation- believed to have evolved from mammal like reptile - if true >mammals would have had a polyphletic origin. >Marsupials... -- Brady Thompson (416) 325-6044 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:50:21 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Satellite Projects Joe Moore said: > REMOTE-SENSING SATELLITE PROJECTS The Canadian Centre For Remote Sensing has a new top-of-the-line bird up since November 1995. This is a RadarSat bird, so it is the latest and greatest stuff. The French with their "Spot" bird(s) currently lead the world with offerings of good-quality products (at really high prices!), but expect the RadarSats to make "Spot" look like the dog it is. They have a number of webpages about the CCRS gizmo, but unless you are up on the lingo and buzzwords of remote sensing, much of it might be boring. http://www.ccrs.nrcan.gc.ca/homepage.html With RadarSat technology, one can get much "better" than one meter, but your post-processing cost goes way way up. The best thing about radar is that one can sense a "signature" of nearly anything, so one can tell a field that was plowed a week ago from a field that was plowed just yesterday. A truly open mind is something that no one can afford, since it would allow the first foolish idea that came along to walk in and take over the joint. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:50:25 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Shape Of The Universe There has been some confusion on how something that is "curved" (the Einstien thread) can also be infinite. The curvature is local. Massive objects "curve" space in their local area, much as a bowling ball on a waterbed would cause a "local" depression in the surface of the waterbed. If the waterbed were a good analogy for the universe (which it is not), we would be on a tiny spec of dust on the surface of the waterbed, way down at the bottom left-hand corner. Overall, the despressions caused by massive objects may seem to "curve" a great deal of space (surface of the waterbed), but this is simply due to our lack of persective. No one knows the shape of the universe for sure, but one thing IS for sure: Space is not curved, it is absolutely bent! A truly open mind is something that no one can afford, since it would allow the first foolish idea that came along to walk in and take over the joint. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:32:59 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic dome courses Comments: To: bob stewart In-Reply-To: ; from "bob stewart" at Jan 23, 96 1:03 am bob stewart writes: > > Hi Joe, > which is the best material science and structural design course > for dome design and construction? > > Best Regards > bob stewart > > Turnpike evaluation. For information, see http://www.turnpike.com/ > .- > Bob, I really don't know the answer to your question, so I am taking the liberty of posting your question to the Geodesic list in the hope that someone out there in Buckyland will be able to help you. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:54:21 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe Comments: To: "RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL geodesic"@ubvm.bitnet [please include this to Geodesic; I'm still incognito, somehow.] I wasn't joking about anything, as Bucky practically worshipped Einstein. he may've laready had the idea, pre'33 and pre-Minkowski's blinding idea, that 4 dimensions could somehow be spatially accomodated, but it seems that his Einstein's legendary meeting (and recommendation) may have retarded his thinking on the whole subject; like, Bucky's trademark sign & "4D Timestrike" (or whatever the phrase was) seem to show this influence. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 06:30:35 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Pat Shelton Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe In article <4dv2qp$kg8@newsbf02.news.aol.com> hopclover@aol.com (HopClover) writes: >pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) wrote: > >>Now, unfortunately, the key to the discussion in this thread, i.e. >>"shape", is, so far as I know, not a mathematical or a Physics term. > > Right. I'm using it in the mundane pedestrian sense. Although, I did give >my own home-grown definition in my original post- >"Shape is the way something relates geometrically to the substance of >space within which it exists. That is to say, a stable object will exist >within the fabric of space in such a way that we can observe it, measure >its configurations relative to itself and space, and determine what we >call shape." > Of course I'm sure that there are any number of much better definitions >out there. > Your definition is not mundane, pedestrian or in the dictionary. It is ok with me if you set up a "private language" but it is not interesting. Many (mathematical) objects do not exist in space but still can be visualized or drawn. A very common mathematical object called a "ball" (say defined as |x| <1, |y| < 1, and |z| < 1) is certainly spherical, has no outside, and does not exist in space. If you have included space in your definition just to say that space can't have a shape by definition, then you have left the real world, nothing is true in the real world "by definition". >>Can something be infinite and have a shape? I think >>it is probable that the answer to all three questions is in the >>affirmative. > > Something infinite having shape? I suppose it's just a philosophical >difference, but I can't see how the answer to that could be affirmative. > Well, unlike some, I don't pretend to be another Einstein and have all the answers. However, if you will look at the Koch curves (which can be made about any shape) and chose one that is closed, you obtain a plane figure with an infinite circumference and a closed figure that is bounded. You can turn this into a three dimensional figure by just rotating it 180 degrees, then you get a 3D object with an infinite circumference. Of course, fractal objects don't have an even number of dimensions and the volume of the figure is finite. So I think that we must define what we are looking for in infinity. (Information on the Koch curve can be found in any book on fractals, Mandelbrot devotes a whole chapter to them in his book "The Fractal Geometry of Nature") However, I can imagine that there is a is a model of space with > 2 dimensions that would meet your criteria. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:53:49 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe >> >> Not at all. Actually what I'm talking about is mostly Einstein's idea. I >>was a bit careless when I used the word "percieve". There's a difference >>between being able to percieve something and being able to measure it. We >>could measure the curvature of space even though it would "look" straight >>to us. Just like we can measure the curvature of the beam of light. We >>don't actually see the light as being curved. few ideas related to light and perception. single photon consists of waves of a single frequency, and it is this f which determines the amount of energy that the the photon is carrying. the energy of a single photon in ergs is equal to its f in hertz multiplied by the number 6.6 x 10^-27 (planck's constant).a pulse of radio wave contains morephotons than an x ray pulse with the same energy. one jule = 10^7 erges. the most common metric measure of power is the watt which is one joul per second. jamma radiation 10^-5 nanometer f 10^24 jama radiation 10^-1 = x ray 100 = 10^16 8x10^14 ultrviolet nanometer = 10 10^-9 , =10 ang planck's constant = 6.626 x10^-34 j.s solar luminosity = 4x10^26 watts colour: grass gree preferential absorption of red light indigo blue of blue geneas blue = = = orange = an orange orange = = = blue = blue eyes blue = light scattering by iris tissue above high absorbing dark membrance Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 07:02:19 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SHAPELESS UNIVERSE SHAPELESS UNIVERSE Because of the fundamental nonsimultaneity of universal structuring, a single, simultaneous, static model of Universe is inherently both nonexistent and conceptually impossible as well as unnecessary. Ergo, Universe does not have a shape. Do not waste your time, as man has been doing for ages, trying to think of a unit shape "outside of which there must be something," or "within which, at center, there must be a smaller something." R.Buckminster Fuller, Synergetics 1, 307.04. Synergetics 1: 240.60, 307.04, 321.02, 510.02, 526.01, 780.26 Synergetics 2: 321.05, 1033.651 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:10:03 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: a note on synergetics language/'buckyspeak' (Re: The Shape of the Universe) Pat Shelton: >>>Now, unfortunately, the key to the discussion in this thread, i.e. >>>"shape", is, so far as I know, not a mathematical or a Physics term. HopClover: >> Right. I'm using it in the mundane pedestrian sense. Although, I did give >>my own home-grown definition in my original post... > Your definition is not mundane, pedestrian or in the dictionary. > It is ok with me if you set up a "private language" but it is > not interesting. private word usages seem to abound in buckyspace, as the dense language in _synergetics_ inspires readers toward definitional explorations of their own. the question, i think, is one of significance of defined context. any context can be attatched to 'shape', 'universe', 'infinite', etc., but different individuals will find value in different ways of meaning. > If you have included space in > your definition just to say that space can't have a shape by > definition, then you have left the real world, nothing is true > in the real world "by definition". exactly. nothing is true - everything (every symbolic statement) is a context with varying amounts of significance (i.e. relation to reality) through different perspectives. i feel that bucky's usages of 'space' and 'universe' are intentional and useful contexts whereby universe _contains_ shape - i.e. universe *as* shape, as opposed to 'having' shape. this is similar to the context as concerns universe containing time vs. existing within time. >> Something infinite having shape? I suppose it's just a philosophical >>difference, but I can't see how the answer to that could be affirmative. > ...if you will look at the Koch > curves (which can be made about any shape) and chose one that > is closed, you obtain a plane figure with an infinite circumference > and a closed figure that is bounded. 'buckyspeak' seems to distinguish between purely conceptual 'shapes' and 'quantities' such as infinite fractals and pi, and their real-world manifestations ('approximation to the platonic', although 'approximation' lends a misleading connotation of 'imperfection' in nature). phi - the golden mean - is an example of an 'irrational ratio' that is omnipresent in nature because it relates to fibonacci accumulation - which requires no infinity, and is perhaps better thought of simply as a *process* of increasing complexity over time (iteration). space *is* included in/as bucky's definition of universe 'just to say' that universe doesn't have a shape 'by definition' - this is because bucky finds it an intuitively valuable context to consider universe as being 'omnipresent and comprehensive reality' - i.e. accomodating everything - including the cognition that some scientific paradigms have at times prefered to consider seperate from the thing being observed (universe). bucky's context is not an attempt to *refute* traditional scientific/mathematic contexts, rather it is an attempt to define a context *in synergetic tension* with 'the standard' - a context that is more spontaneously compatible with his own intuitive observations, intuitions that he successfully transmits to others in his writing, and which may turn out to be quite significant as relates to answering scientific curiosity. i propose that rather then arguing about whether universe *has* shape or 'contains/is' shape, we explore more easily agreed upon ways in which the connotations of competing contexts signify when relating to other contexts - particularly when relating to the context of gestalt individual perception and processing capacity - which is all the 'universe' any one of us will ever know. > So I think that we must > define what we are looking for in infinity. i use infinity in terms of process, such as in the abstract concept 'accumulation' (counting). i feel that the universe is infinite in this sense only: universe as 'the grand equation' in continual calculation. this algorithmically iterative emphasis accomodates the 'infinity' of fractals, pi, phi, etc. we can only *point* to infinity - 'it's *that* way' - and this connotationally misleads that it is some kind of place that can be gotten to. it seems significant to instead consider 'infinity' as conceptually similar to the ever-moving 'tomorrow'. the word 'random' seems to have conceptual difficulties similar to those of 'infinity'. it connotes utter, unordered chaos - chaos 'all the way down' - which some believe is synonymous with the 'bubbling froth' of quantum uncertainty. it seems to me, however, that the dividing line between physical and metaphysical universe consideration is at the point where observation ends and extrapolation begins. bucky urged us to take our senses at face value, and to avoid extrapolating 'all the way to infinity' or 'all the way to inherent uncertainty'. the image of fractal on a print is certainly not infinite, although it has significant claims to the label 'fractal', which has a mathematical conceptual context of infinity by definition. 'chaos' and 'complexity' mathematics are also linked to fractals, and neither concept need manifest 'real world' infinity nor fundamental randomness to lay claim to the terms. i therefore think of 'random' in terms of complexity beyond current subjective capacity to discover order. as such, it seems quite relevant to the 'inherent unanticipatability' of synergy - parts producing a greater whole. 'randomness' has become conceptually useful to me in recent times as concerns 'stochastic resonance' (the way the introduction of 'noise' can, in some contexts, actually *boost* signal) and the stochastic processes described in Douglas Hofstadter's cognitive science book _Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies_, where analogy-making programs are composed of statistically competing codelets, out of which unpredictable, relevant outcome evolutionarily emerges. 'random' seems, thus, quite conceptually useful without needing inherent disorder/chaos, and i think 'infinity as process' can work the same way. Bucky himself seemed to disparage any use of 'infinity', instead encouraging the continued evolution of language - i.e. finding new ways for our words to signify. as such, 'eternal', as in 'eternally regenerative Universe', is used in place of 'infinity' for the purpose of keeping the nonstandard context more easily conceptually seperable from the standard ('obsolete') one. and perhaps 'stochastic' (from 'stegh-', to stick, prick, point, up through target, aim, goal, guess, divination, probability, conjecture) has a connotational spread more significant for our purposes than that of 'random', via application with 'anticipation', as in 'comprehensive anticipatory design science'. 'stochastic processes' are those from which synergy emerges - are the processes we work with in exploring the unknown. so what is the micro-level shape of universe? synergetics works within a context that space does have shape, and that the best conceptual beginning to exploring that shape (inherent universe geometry) is the tetrahedron. rather than the chaos of quantum uncertainty going all the way down, synergetics intuitively perceives (philosophically decides) that there is a base level of quantum discreteness that complexifies beyond our level to unravel in any other way except continuously and procedurally. inherent order with disorder as a 'mere' subjectivity of perspective also seems to dissolve the negative connotations implicit in the concept of entropy, the generalization that closed systems tend toward disorder, which fuller counters with the intuition of universe as minimum perpetual motion machine. does the universe at-large have shape? universe *accomodates* shape, by label of perception. A more significant context than universe as a 'thing' - as a physical object within spacetime - seems universe as eternal geometric process, accomodating infinity and stochasm without violating the experiencial intuitions of shape and spacetime. -k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:26:04 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Birdhouses and solar shelters Over the last couple of months, I've been watching a homeless person who has built himself a small homeless shelter under the 4' concrete overhang of a parking garage on Atlantic Avenue near Court Street in Brooklyn, next door to Saint Vincent's Family and Children's care center. A lot of homeless people in cities are mentally ill, and very suspicious, and not inclined to stay in city shelters, because city shelters are dangerous... Yesterday it was 32 F in Brooklyn and snowing. I wanted to take this man some hot food, but he didn't seem to be home when I stopped by. It's hard to tell when he's home... He lives in a sort of very small cave, like an animal. Will he get frostbite this week? Will he lose some fingers or toes? He and the center have something in common: they are both wasting solar energy. The center has a 60' tall x 40' wide south-facing plain brick wall, upon which the solar heat equivalent of approximately 24 gallons of oil fall every day in December. The south wall of this man's small shelter is a piece of plywood, 6' wide x 4' tall, with various blankets and quilts and sleeping bags stuffed around it to make a dark, concrete-walled cave under the parking garage. Now, there are lots of lean-to shelters on the Appalachian trail, some of them stocked with firewood, put there for the convenience of passing hikers, and we build birdhouses, don't we? Why not extend such charity to humans, and make some sort of urban shelters for people like this homeless man? Outdoor art, if you like, in urban parks... It seems to me that it wouldn't be difficult to put one $500 septic tank on top of another, with some foamboard on the outside, eg Dri-Vit, to make something like this human birdhouse: | 5' | | 12' | pffffffffff --- pppppppppppppppppppppppp p.........f p p p .f p p p .f 6' p p p .f p living space p p .f p p south p.........f --- p p p f.......f p..................... p p f. .f p . p p f. .f p rain . waste p p f.water.f 5' p water . water? p p f. .f p . p p f.......f p . p p fffffffff --- pppppppppppppppppppppppp Being in a city, this would have to be fairly bulletproof. Suppose p above is an 11' x 12' piece of easily-replaced polyethylene greenhouse film, with a few thin pieces of metal sewed into the edges to hold it tight against some magnets embedded in the south edges of the shelter. If the concrete tanks had walls that were 4" thick, the two tanks together would weigh about 4"/12" x (12'x16' + 5'x6'x2) x 150 lb/ft^3 x 2 = 25,200 pounds, with a thermal mass of approximately 0.16 x 25,200 = 4032 Btu/degree F. Filling the bottom tank with water would make the total thermal mass C = 4032 + 1500 gal x 8 lb/gal = 16,032 Btu/F. On an average December day where I live, about 1100 Btu/ft^2 falls on a south wall, so if the poly film has a solar transmission of 0.8, the amount of solar energy that gets into the structure would be about Ein = 11' x 12' x 0.8 = 116,000 Btu/day, And if the average outdoor temperature is 36 F and the average indoor temperature is T, and the poly film has an R-value of 0.8, then the amount of heat that leaves the structure in one day would be about Eout = 24 hours x (T-36) x 12' x 6'/R0.8 = 2,160 x (T-36). If the energy that enters the structure during an average day is equal to the energy that leaves the structure, ie Ein = Eout, then 2,160 x (T-36) = 116,200, so T = 36 + 116,200/2,160 = 86 F. That's a simplified calculation, but at least it seems there would be no danger of frostbite. How would the temperature change over a week without sun? Each day, the structure would lose Ed = 2,160 x (T-36) Btu, which would cool the thermal mass by Ed/C Btu, which would leave the thermal mass with a temperature of T - Ed/C: indoor heat temp Day temp (F) loss (Btu) loss (F) 1 86 108K 6.7 2 79.3 93K 5.8 3. 73.5 81K 5.0 4 68.4 70K 4.4 5 64.0 60K 3.8 6 60.2 52K 3.3 7 56.9 45K 2.8 Nick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:19:12 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: The Butterfly Subject: Re: (fwd)DYMAX DOME In-Reply-To: <9601042014.aa08899@inside.cruzio.com> (message from Joe Moore on Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:14:24 PST) -Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 20:14:24 PST -Sender: "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" - -From: Joe Moore - -Kirby Urner writes: -> To: 100553.213@compuserve.com -> From: Kirby Urner -> -> At 08:03 PM 1/2/96 -0500, 100553.213@compuserve.com wrote: -> > -> >To: Kirby Urner -> >From: Bob Stewart -> > -> >Can you help me please. I am trying to build a dymaxion house although -> >it is unlikely to the the original design, probably a geodesic dome with -> >complete services autonomy and food production as part of the -> >mIllenium Celebrations on this country. There is money from our -> >National Lottery -> > -> >Has anyone else to your knowledge tried to make the complete design -> >in terms of autonomy. -> > -> >Many thanks -> > -> >Bob Stewart -> >Killiemor -> >Aros -> >The Isle of Mull -> >Scotland -> > -> -> Interesting project. I've seen designs which try to minimize energy -> throughput while keeping humans comfy -- part of the slide show presented -> by an associate of James Baldwin at the recent Fuller Centennial Celebration -> in San Diego. I'm in the process of ransacking files for relevant -> names/addresses. Baldwin the most logical contact, but doesn't go in -> for email much, unfortunately. I'll forward this to others who -> might be of help. -> -> Are you able to browse the World Wide Web from the Isle of Mull? -> -> Kirby -> Sounds like what I'm trying to do. Hoping to make something pretty much self-sufficient on earth, where it can draw energy/water/etc from the surrounding environment and run just about anywhere on-planet-surface that you place it. Hoping to have a prototype with basic systems in place sometime this year. I'll keep you posted as it takes shape. Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury Web: http://www.visionware.com/pat.html Mail with "send-file-info-please" in subject line to get my public-files list. ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:02:31 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: The Butterfly Subject: Re: Do it yourself fog gun? In-Reply-To: <4cn0qu$4vu@first.megalinx.net> (message from Michael J McCanney on Sat, 6 Jan 1996 23:33:54 GMT) -Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 23:33:54 GMT -Sender: "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" - -From: Michael J McCanney -Organization: Megalinx Communication - -nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote: - -Could creating a slight vacuum (say in an enclosed shower stall) help -alleviate high pressure needs to create fog out of water? - -Just a thought. - -Mike - - I used to have an ultrasonic humidifier that created a very nice fog/mist very silently. Perhaps a scaled-up version of that would work? Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury Web: http://www.visionware.com/pat.html Mail with "send-file-info-please" in subject line to get my public-files list. ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:50:01 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: WEB SITES WEB SITES Dymaxion Car Patent http://www.stud.unit.no/studorg/a/Ades94sid/Dymaxion.html John Cage Interview about Fuller http://brains.race.u-tokyo.ac.jp/JohnCageInterview.html _No More Second Hand God_ Quote http://www.csn.net/v/bucky.htm Pic of the Climatron Dome in the Missouri Botanical Gardens, St.Louis, MO http://www2.ncsu.edu/ncsu/design/pictures/large/PLZ.00008.JPG Southern Illinois University (Prof.Bill Perk, hfwperk@aol.com) http://www.siu.edu/departments/bucky/ -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:10:35 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DYMAX CAR PATENT DYMAXION CAR U.S. PATENT - 2,101,057 APPLICATION - OCTOBER 18, 1933 SERIAL NO. - 694,068 IN GREAT BRITAIN - SEPTEMBER 8, 1933 PATENTED - DECEMBER 7, 1937 UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE Buckminster Fuller, Bridgeport, Conn., assignor to the Dymaxion Corporation, Bridgeport, Conn., a corporation of Connecticut MOTOR VEHICLE The invention relates to the construction of motor road vehicles whereby they are adapted to the economical op- eration resulting from full streamline formation and whereby other and independent advantages are obtained as will be apparent to those skilled in this art from this disclosure. The principles of the invention are exem- plified by the vehicle illustrated in the accompanying drawings, but without limitation to such particular form. Fig. 1 is a side view of the vehicle. Fig. 2, a top plan. Fig. 3, a longitudinal vertical section. Fig. 4, a horizontal section on line IVQIV. Fig. 5, a cross section on line VQV. Fig. 6, a cross section on line VIQVI. Fig. 7, a cross section on line VIIQVII. Fig. 8, an end view at line VIIIQVIII with bussle removed. Fig. 9, a detail section on line IXQIX. [IMAGE] The streamline body covers or encloses all of the chas- sis including all the wheels. For best economy it should be so designed that every axial section has a full stream- line contour, which is to say that the body should be con- tinuously curved from a round or blunt front to a tapered tail and that all its transverse maximum diameters should occur at a point about one-third of the length from the front end with no substantial interruption to the curva- ture and with no more excrescencies exposed to the rela- tive wind than necessary for operation. The front wheels 2 are the driven or traction wheels and are located at the widest part of the streamline body, that is, at a point about one-third of its length from the front end. They are journalled at the ends of an axle structure or housing 3 and driven through differential gearing indicated at 4 by a propeller shaft S or in any equivalent differential manner. The axle structure may be the same as the rear axle struc- ture of standard automobiles. The forward wheels can be organized as the steering wheels within the broader aspect of this invention, but it is preferred that the steering is done by a rear wheel or wheels such as indicated at 6 which is central of the two forward wheels, being journalled on a stub shaft 7 rigidly fixed in the end of a single-tined steering fork 8, the head 9 of which is swiveled to turn on an upright axis. This wheel is preferably of the same size as the forward wheels and interchangeable therewith as in standard auto- mobiles, being readily removed from its stub shaft on the single-tined fork. It may however be dual-tired if desired, or may consist of twin wheels turning together as a unit or like a single wheel and such variants are to be under- stood as included within the term single steering wheel as used herein. [IMAGE] The steering head 9 is journalled on vertically spaced bearings in a deep barrel socket 10 formed in the rear apical end of a generally triangular or A-shaped frame 11 herein termed the sub-frame, and is slightly castored therein as shown in Fig. 3, to facilitate steering. The for- wardly extending legs of this frame 11 are supported on the forward axle housing 3 close to the front wheels 2, thus to provide a wide bearing for the sub-frame on the forward wheels and it has deep web sections with liberal flanging and gusseting and is reinforced by an arched cross-brace 12, all for the purpose of producing a max- imum degree of rigidity in the torsional sense between the steering head and axle housing. Such rigidity is im- portant in three-wheeled vehicles intended for passenger car speeds because, if the steering axis is not kept to a plane parallel with the planes of the front wheels (or if these are canted, then to an intermediate plane bisecting the angle between them) the steering becomes unsteady and dangerous. On this account the sub-frame 11 is spe- cially stiffened as stated and no spring intervenes be- tween it and the wheels such as might permit the steering axis to change its lateral position in relation to the for- ward wheels. In this sense the sub-frame is an unsprung frame. It may however be connected to the axle by a This frame extends from a rear point just forward of the rear wheel to a forward point well beyond the forward wheels and has a kickup over the forward axle. Its rear part lies in substantially the same level as the legs of the sub-frame and between them and about one-third of its length overhangs the forward axle. Cross bracing, not shown, may be provided to give it requisite stiffness. Its forward point of support is by a cross bolster 16 and a transverse spring 17 which is shackled at its ends to ap- propriate brackets on the axle structure; see Fig. 5. At its rear end it is flexibly connected to the sub-frame in such manner as to accommodate the action of the forward spring and preferably the connection includes a spring such as cross-spring 18 which is centrally fastened to the cross-bolster 19 of the main frame and suspended at its ends by a pair of hanger-links 20 depending from the high joint, if the joint axis is horizontal and such joint is pref- erably used and appears at 13, where the ends of the frame legs are attached to the axle housing. It does not impair the rigidity of the frame against torsion. Prefera- bly also the sub-frame is dropped or formed with an an- gle at or near the cross brace so that its forwardly extending leg members are substantially horizontal and at about the level of the wheel hubs and only the pointed rear part rises above the hub level. [IMAGE] The propelling engine 14 occupies the space within and below the narrow part of the sub-frame and under the arched cross-brace 12. It may be mounted on that frame with appropriate cushionings, if desired, but is preferably mounted on a second frame 15, herein called the main frame, which carries the body 1 and is spring-supported. part of the sub-frame. These links include turn-buckles as indicated, which can be adjusted to raise or lower the main frame. By reason of their substantial parallelism they permit a certain amount of sidesway to the main frame relatively to the sub-frame but tending at the same time to restrain careening of the body. The chassis of the illustrated vehicle thus includes the sub-frame which as stated is unsprung, and the main frame which is sprung both front and rear. It is desirable that the normal amplitude of the rear spring action be relatively less than that of the front spring. This can be done by loading it with a resistance of some sort, such as provided by connecting ordinary hydraulic shock absorb- ers 21 between the two frames at this point. If absorbers are also associated with the front spring, as indicated at 22, the resistance of the rear absorbers is made to exceed materially that of the front absorbers, so that the action of the rear spring is relatively stiff or sluggish. The throw of the rear spring is limited by a check rod 23 which is connected at its foot with the end of the main frame or with the cross bolster 19 thereof or otherwise and plays in a hole in a cross flange 24 (Fig. 3) of the sub-frame 11 with rubber-backed collars 25 fixed on the rod above and below such flange. These collars coact with the flange as spring-bumpers, in both directions, and in addition the upper collar serves also as a safety support to hold the main frame in the event of failure of its rear spring or support. The engine is mounted with the end of its crank- shaft accessible to the rear through a hole marked 26 and the check rod is attached to the frame by a connection above this hole, as indicated in Figs. 3 and 7 so that by turning the steering wheel to a transverse position room is available to introduce a hand crank in the hole when the engine requires to be hand cranked. [IMAGE] The transmission case is on the forward end of the en- gine and connected to drive the forwardly extending pro- peller shaft S through an appropriate universal joint or joints and with or without a torque tube as preferred. The transmission mechanism is controlled by a selector rod 27 extending forwardly to the gear shift lever 28 at the operator's station. The usual engine controls, though not shown in the drawings, will be understood to be ar- ranged in any suitable way. In the case of a watercooled engine, the radiator 29 is preferably located directly over the transmission or flywheel case and just abaft the after bulkhead wall 30 of the cabin compartment, and suitable partitions 31 and 32 (Fig. 6) are provided to form an air channel for con- ducting air to it from an air scoop slot 33 which extends across the roof part of the body. A fan 34 is located in the air channel, being driven by the engine in any suit- able manner, as for example, by the belt-driven shaft 35, which is journalled on the engine and extends through the radiator. The cooling air passing the radiator flows over the engine and out around the rear wheel. While the body 1 can be variously constructed and wholly of metal, if desired, it is shown as built of wood framing with a light metal covering. Its main sills 36 are carried on brackets 37 which project laterally from the main frame, some of them extending over and some un- der the legs of the sub-frame and all shaped or located to afford the necessary clearance for the relative movement of the unsprung sub-frame and the sprung main frame. These sills extend aft of the main frame as cantilevers to support the tail part of the body. Doors and windows are provided and also a number of removable panels, those marked 38 being for providing access to the forward wheels and those marked 39 to afford access to the en- gine while the rear end or bussle 40 is removable to af- ford access not only to the rear wheel but also to the crankshaft of the engine for hand-cranking it. The for- ward windows 41 are either curved to the streamline con- tour or composed of smaller flat sections collectively approximating such contour. The bottom of the body is preferably closed by a belly wall in one or more sections which are longitudinally and transversely curved to conform to the streamline contour. To this end the metal body covering below the sills 36 is inwardly curved at the sides, as indicated at 42 and the middle space is closed in by a curved belly wall section marked 43 in Figs. 1 and 3. This section 43 of the belly wall is a part of the body proper. Next in the rear of the belly wall section 43 comes a continuation section 44 which is removably fastened to the unsprung parts of the chassis, that is, to the differential casing and the legs of the sub-frame, the forward attachment points being marked 45 and the rear points 46 (Fig. 3). Aft of this section and extending to the end of the tail, the belly wall section 47 is fastened to the incurved sides 42 of the body in some removable manner and this section is cut with a circular hole 48A (Fig. 4) to accommodate the rear steer- ing wheel. As thus organized the belly wall is formed of three sections of which two are carried by the body proper and the other intermediate section by the running gear. The sections meet without contact in normally flush relation so as to provide a substantially smooth belly from front to rear but it will be apparent that the edges will play past each other according to the action of the springs. The gap may be covered or faired over if desired to exclude entrance of air. While shown as made of metal the belly wall may be made of fabric, if desired, in which case it may be continuous from end to end. [IMAGE] By thus enclosing the whole running gear, including as much of the wheels as consistent with road clearance in a properly streamline external contour, the advantage is gained that the rate of fuel consumption, as compared with conventional cars of equivalent size and weight, falls off rapidly as the speed is increased above about 10 m.p.h. being some 30% less at 30 miles and 50% less at about 50 miles, while within the overall dimensions of such conventional cars the volume of useful cabin space inside the streamline body is much increased, being prac- tically doubled. All of the interior of the body forward of the drop-angle or bulkhead wall 30 constitutes the useful space for passenger or cargo, and due to the drop-angle the rear seat can extend the full width of the body over the sub-frame 11, as well as over the main frame 15 and with cars of standard tread gauge this provides a seat some 6 feet wide, long enough to serve as a bunk for sleeping purposes. The forward overhang of the main frame 15 pitches up- wards from the forward wheels and terminates at about the bumper level of conventional cars or slightly higher, the purpose of which, among other things, is to take any collision impact in the event of accident at a point well in advance of the front seat and to receive it on the main frame, so that the inertia of the engine fixed on the rear of that frame will be available to absorb the impact, as is the case in conventional cars having the engine in front. [IMAGE] Steering is done by a hand-wheel 48 mounted at a con- venient angle in front of one of the forward seats and according to this invention its connections to the steering head 9 provide for a maximum variation of steering angle of at least about 160! and in any event over 100!. With the traction wheels located at one third the body length abaft the front end, such range of steering angle affords a degree of maneuverability not heretofore attained in au- tomobiles. In the present case the steering system in- cludes a windlass contained in a case 50 with cables 51 trained over sheaves on the chassis or sub-frame and at- tached to the ends of the sprocket chain 52 of a full circu- lar sprocket wheel 53 which is fixed to and below the steering head 9. By the use of a full circular sprocket wheel the same constant degree of tautness is kept in the cables for every steering angle, without which the steer- ing would be erratic and unsatisfactory. A keeper or guard 54 is provided about the sprocket wheel rim to guide and retain the chain thereon. This keeper is fixed by rigid bracket arms to the steering head barrel 10 of the sub-frame 11, directly over the steering-wheel mudguard 55 which turns with the steering head 9. The lugs 56 (Fig. 4) on the ends of the sprocket chain serve to limit the steering angle by their abutment against the ends of the keeper 54. They limit the steering range to something less than 180! of arc. The gear ratio of the steering system is about 30 to 1 and in order to make quick changes through large angles, the hand-wheel 48 is provided with a crank knob 57 by which it may be easily spun. [IMAGE] While rear-steering greatly improves maneuverability as compared to conventional cars, and particularly with the traction wheels in the position described, it is apt to give rise to a tendency to skid when braking or rounding corners. This however is eliminated according to this in- vention by the distribution of the weight and the location of the center of gravity of the vehicle. It is found that such center should be forward of the mid-point of the wheel base and must not in fact be located further aft from the forward wheel axis than a distance equal to about 40% of the wheel base length. The importance of the pronounced forward body overhang will now be ap- parent, since even with the engine in the rear it brings the center of gravity to the position of maximum safety against skidding. In the car taken for illustration, the cen- ter of gravity is about 20% aft of the front axle, some 75% of the total weight being on the two forward wheels, and this location of the gravity center is preferred. The normal loading of the vehicle will not appreciably shift it. Also specially contributing to the maneuverability and ease of handling generally is the fact that the traction center as well as the gravity center are both located in the same general position, forward of the center point of the wheel base and that this position also substantially coin- cides with what may be called the streamline center of the body which may be taken as its center of volume or the center of area of its axial section. This center is indi- cated roughly in Fig. 3 by the small circle 58; the gravity center is lower down and the traction center of course coincides with the axis of the front wheels. The con- sequences of the grouping of these important centers in the same general forward location are reflected in the structural economy of the vehicle and become obvious on comparison with the action of conventional cars and es- pecially those which have their fraction center rearward of the mid-point of the wheel base. [IMAGE] A view to the rear is afforded to the driver through a water-tight roof window 59 and an exterior inclined mirror 60 mounted on the roof at its highest point and within a rearward open hood or fairing 61 to avoid wind resistance and also shelter the mirror from the weather. The mirror may be viewed through the window and by reason of its position at the highest point gives unobstructed vision to the rear through a wide arc. This makes it easy for the driver to avoid swinging the tail of the vehicle so far to the outside when turning a corner, as to collide with adjacent cars or objects. To the same end the invention contemplates as an additional safeguard, useful in the case of drivers unaccustomed to rear-steered vehicles, a warning device of some kind which will announce the fact whenever the driver turns the rear wheel to such an angle as might be likely to result in a sideswipe. This may take any suitable form and as shown herein consists of a wiper button 63 (Fig. 4) fastened to the steel steering cable 51 and adapted to contact with either of two electrically insulated terminal plates 64 mounted on a cross bar 65 and connected in circuit with a buzzer or the like 66. Whenever the rear wheel reaches or passes the angle which will run it outside of the tracks of the forward wheels, the signal is given and the driver's attention is thereby called to the need of caution in the event there should be an adjacent object in position to be sideswiped. When operating within the limits represented by the two terminal plates, the driver may handle the car without concern for side collisions more than with ordinary automobiles. Instead of an audible signal any other device may be employed which will guard against involuntarily exceeding the normal range of steering angle. [IMAGE] A brake pedal is indicated at 62 but the braking system has been omitted; it may be applied to all three wheels, if desired, but braking on the two forward wheels alone has been found sufficient with the weight distribution as described. While the various features of this invention have been above described as mutually combined and cooperating in a single structure which is rear-steered, it is to be understood and will be apparent that there is no intention to limit this patent to such single combination inasmuch as certain subcombinations set forth in the claims obviously have important uses in independent relations. _________________________________________________________________ Ge tillbaka till artikeln. Denna sida senast dndrad man 3. apr 1995 kl. 15:33. http://www.stud.unit.no/studorg/a/Ades94sid/Dymaxion.html -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:45:56 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: TRIBUTE 21 NEWSLETTER EXCERPT FROM TRIBUTE21 NEWSLETTER DATED 11-2-95 QUOTE: Buckminster Fuller Institute The Tribute 21 print exhibit were on display for summer visitors to the Buckminster Fuller Institute in Santa Barbara. The exhibition ran from May 6 through June 4. June 12, 1995 marked Buckminster Fuller's 100th birthday. A number of events were held around the country in honor of the occasion. Fuller's daughter, Allegra Fuller Synder, and son Jamie hosted the Buckminster Fuller Institute's "A Centennial Symposium & Celebration" July 14 through 16 in San Diego. In addition to discussion groups and seminars, the event included a Buckminster Fuller Film Festival, a Children's Festival, a Benefit Concert and World Games played on "the world's largest and most accurate map." Another celebration is planned for June 12, 1996 at the close of their Centenary year. The Institute is pleased to announce that they'll soon be a part of the World Wide Web. The Web forum will continue throughout the coming year. Its purpose is to involve everyone interested in an in-depth, global dialogue on design science and sustainability. We'll keep you posted on the July '96 event and World Wide Web contact details. to top of page END QUOTE OFFICE OF TRIBUTE 21 3 Roque Moraes Court Mill Valley, CA 94941 (415) 381-5084 (415) 381-1393 fax tribute@slip.net The Tribute 21 office in Mill Valley, California is responsible for the management, sustenance, and expansion of this vital project, committed to creating a self-sustaining source of income to advance humanitarian causes. It exists to offer resources, funnel information, and provide and renew contacts. Haruko Smith, Executive Director Megumi Inouye, Program Director &
Editor Kazuhiko Yazaki Publisher, Theodore W. Kheel Counsel -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:10:43 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: HIGH COUNTRY NEWS (I found this while surfing thr net.) QUOTE: Western Roundup HIGH COUNTRY NEWS -- AUGUST 23, 1993, VOL. 25 NO. 15 _________________________________________________________________ Does Windstar have a future or only a past? [IMAGE] Kristen LLamas A Buckminster Fuller-designed biodome once sat on Windstar property. The federation's mismanagement and neglect have "blown the vision which drove Windstar," says Julie Bollinger of Dillon, a longtime member of the foundation's Colorado Connections group. "It's almost been like a corporate takeover." Jay Hair, president of the National Wildlife Federation, explains, "I don't know what Windstar's original vision was, but it didn't work." Windstar is best known for an annual symposium called "Choices for the Future" that draws nationally known speakers. Hair said if the federation had not paid off Windstar's debts of $600,000 in 1990, the foundation would have been dissolved and its 1,000 acres of pricey, undeveloped land sold. In return, the federation took over day-to-day operation of the property and Hair sits on Windstar's board of directors. Hair adds, "I talk quite often to John Denver," who is still president of Windstar. "John agrees the foundation has problems and is frustrated about what hasn't worked." Jane Cook of Lafayette, another Windstar donor and volunteer, says the federation squelches questions from members about the foundation's future and current management decisions. She cites the decision to remove the Buckminster Fuller-designed biodome, a 50-foot-tall geodesic dome that served as an environment for growing everything from basil and potatoes to tropical plants. Members weren't consulted, and that's just a glaring example of the "lack of communication," Cook says. The wildlife federation is currently working with the Windstar board to plan the foundation's future, but "Windstar's future is not going to resemble its past, and those who want to hang on to the past should be studying paleontology or watching `Jurassic Park,'" Hair says. "It will not be the unfocused free ride they seem to have fond memories of." Hair says the biodome cost over $55,000 a year to maintain and contained outdated technology. It was moved to Prescott College in Arizona. An appeal to members has been launched to correct problems "besetting our beloved Windstar," according to a letter written by Kirsten Llamas of Miami, Fla., publisher of a newsletter called Earth Network News. Her appeal says, "there is an enormous reserve of good will, physical and financial support for Windstar, but it is not forthcoming" because of poor management. In addition, Llamas writes, "We find there is an old boy network that wants to control Windstar for its own purposes without interference from the membership." Hair says only a handful of Windstar members are complaining, and that Windstar's problems arose because "it has never been successful as a membership organization." The current membership of about 3,000 has remained static despite the federation's marketing and direct mail efforts, which Hair calls probably the best in the environmental business. The National Wildlife Federation has over 5 million members. Steve Blomeke, former head of the federation's Colorado chapter, now manages Windstar. In Llamas' letter she singles him out as guilty of mismanagement and arrogance. A few weeks ago Blomeke came under fire for shooting skunks he had trapped on the property using steel, leg-hold traps. Windstar staffer Wynne Kenworth was fired from her gardener position, she says, after protesting the skunk killings as cruel and hypocritical. "The skunk thing was silly," says Hair. "Steve did everything right" with regard to trying non-lethal removal methods before resorting to killing the animals. As for managing the land, "the property has been virtually useless as an educational tool," Hair says, because so few people - especially people of color or culturally diverse backgrounds - attend Windstar events. He says the federation eventually wants Windstar to focus on environmental and outdoor programs that reach a large cross-section of people. Hair says its goals are to teach peaceful and sustainable choices concerning the future of the planet. - Jon Klusmire END QUOTE. Jon Klusmire writes in Glenwood Springs, Colorado. The Windstar Foundation 2317 Snowmass Creek Road, Old Snowmass, CO 81654 (303/927-4777). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:32:53 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SOUNDPRINT RBF TAPE I found another audiotape about Bucky: QUOTE: Artifacts of Buckminster Fuller The ideas of Buckminster Fuller resonate through the work of artists and scientists such as composers John Cage and Andrew Culver, sculptor Kenneth Snelson, engineer Amy Edmondson and Ed Applewhite, co-author of Synergetics. They, along with Jay Baldwin, editor of the Whole Earth Catalog, and Dr. Donald Ingbar, a physician at Children's Hospital and a faculty member of Harvard Medical School, share with producer Scott Carrier their insights into the man who was their friend and inspiration. ___________________________________________________________________________ SOUNDPRINT is pleased to offer a selection of its most popular programs for listeners to purchase and enjoy. Please note that some older programs are no longer available for sale: call SOUNDPRINT to confirm availability before ordering. Cassette copies of SOUNDPRINT are $12.50 US each, except for series packages, which are specially priced. If you know which cassettes you would like to purchase, you can order by phone or by mail. ORDER BY PHONE: SOUNDPRINT accepts MasterCard and Visa orders over the telephone. Just call (202) 885-1285 to place an order, or to get more information about SOUNDPRINT documentaries. We will ask you for your credit card number and expiration date, your name, address and phone number, the name of your local station, and the name of the program or programs you would like to order. If you are not sure of the title of the program, describe the content to us. ORDER BY MAIL: Send a check or money order along with a letter requesting the program by title to: SOUNDPRINT 4000 Brandywine Street, NW Suite 620 Washington, DC 20016 END QUOTE. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:15:25 -0500 Reply-To: HopClover Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HopClover Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) wrote: > Your definition is not mundane, pedestrian or in the dictionary. > It is ok with me if you set up a "private language" but it is > not interesting. Maybe I'm not following you because we're defining shape differently. How would you define it? > Many (mathematical) objects do not exist in > space but still can be visualized or drawn. The mathematical objects of which you speak are ideas of real world shapes or ideas of shapes which could not exist in our world. (for example a 10-deminsional model of the universe's "10-dimensional shape") I'm talking about real world objects. If I visualize (or draw) something, say my tv set, it is true that my visualazation may not have shape or even exist in space, but the actual tv set does. I'm talking about real world objects, not the mathematical representations of them. > A very common > mathematical object called a "ball" (say defined as |x| <1, > |y| < 1, and |z| < 1) is certainly spherical, has no outside, > and does not exist in space. If you have included space in > your definition just to say that space can't have a shape by > definition, then you have left the real world, nothing is true > in the real world "by definition". When did I say that space can't have a shape? I said that, if modern science is correct when is claims that the universe does not have edges or boundaries, then the universe does not have shape. I believe that for a real world object to have shape it must have edges and boundaries. I also believe that for a real world object to have edges or boundaries that it must exist within space. Where am I wrong in this? -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 18:49:07 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Jackson Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C. Subject: Geodesic Math and how to use it Hello, After much searching of the web and libraries, I have finally found a book that explains exactly how to make geodesic domes. There are examples of almost every type, with exact measurements and so on. There are also very detailed explanations of the formulas used to calculate the factors for those who wish to learn them. I do not. I only became interested in geodesic domes for the purpose of constructing a backyard greenhouse with pvc pipe. I had no idea of just how complicated the measurements and angles were to arrive at, and after some frustration over my failures I began researching. I'm sure that alot of people like me who are not math majors, but nonetheless are interested in constructing a dome for one reason or another, could really use some of the information in this book. For those of you who are already dome experts, kindly disregard. For anyone interested in my greenhouse plan, here are the instructions found applicable to my project. This is for a 3v Octahedron, but I also have measurements for 3v Icosahedron if you wish a more spherical shape. /\ A/ \A /____\ /\ B /\ B/ C\ /C \B /____\/____\ /\ C /\ C /\ A/ B\ C/ C\ /B \A /____\/____\/____\ A B A A=14 B=19.3 C=20.5 Note: The above numbers are in centimeters in the book, but I believe they should work on any scale and unit of measure. Note: To complete a sphere, use the above face triangle 8 times. Constructive criticism from experts encouraged. I am no expert, only a beginner who wouldn't give up just because he couldn't do it by himself. Anyone wishing more info, e-mail or post and I'll give you what I have. Later, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:52:15 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Hippocratic Oath for Scientists Comments: To: "INFORAMP.NET geodesic"@ubvm.bitnet well, at least, they did the research; they have a booklet for 3 pounds & 95 pence (?) that purports to list all of the known ethical codes for scientists!... unfortunately, not everyone agrees that weaponeering is unmitigated evil, esp.if they're not supporters of Pugwash, the UN and collateral world- governmental groupings. [someone please tell me if this is appearing on the list !-] {Bill; thank you .-} ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:27:51 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe Comments: To: "teleport.com geodesic"@ubvm.bitnet I think that you're confusing What Bucky Saith, that Universe is Finite but Unbounded, with your own (as far as I know) construction, Infinite but Bounded; eh?... anyway, mathematical physics DOES have shape, and it's called, the Theory of Groups; the simplest ones were all found in Klein's "Erlingen (U.) Program", and they're just all of our favorites -- how'bout those dihedral groups for Flatlanders ?!? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 19:07:01 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Cornell Kimball Organization: Primenet (602)395-1010 Subject: Re: Organizations for Simplifying Some Spellings A couple of groups that are promoting the gradual adoption and greater use of some simpler spellings are: Better Education thru Simplified Spelling 300 Riverfront Drive Suite 2608 Detroit, MI 48226 U.S.A. (Fax: 313-393-5850) and: Simplified Spelling Society 133 John Trundle Court Barbican London EC2Y 8DJ U.K. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Cornell Kimball cornelk@primenet.com ------------------------------------------------------------- "What is the real function, the essential function, the supreme function of language? Isn't it merely to convey ideas and emotions?" -- Mark Twain ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:04:39 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: a note on synergetics language/'buckyspeak' (Re: The Shape of the Universe) True enough, Fuller took words for his own and vectored them according to his intuitions. Universe has much to do with communication and experience in Fuller's writing. A scenario happening years ago, maybe to oneself, is still a part of Universe in a sense. Being 'in the past' doesn't mean 'not being'... Partially overlapping scenario Universe. We each get to live out a scenario, experience a 'might-have-been' subjunctive Universe (reality is special case). What 'shape' does it have? Given that it has no simultaneous, all-at-once, existence of any kind, and our typical notions of 'shape' have that 'moment in time' aspect, the attribute seems irrelevant. The Whole is, according to Bucky, nonunitarily conceptual -- we can't grasp Universe as a concept. Concept, container: the etymology supports his usage. Most primitive concept=most primitive container= tetrahedron. Fuller's terms: Definite, Finite, Indefinite. Definite: tuned in, has angle/frequency, has shape Indefinite: isn't infinite, but is a backdrop nothingness against which Definite is tuned in Finite: Definite + Indefinite is still Finite (not Infinite) Definity = Finity (untuned) - 720 degrees = 1 tetrahedron IE: Finite - 1 'negative takeout tetra' = 1 positive tetra -1 + 1 (negative tetra + positive tetra) = 0 (untunable) Bucky felt Synergetics was a kind of 'empty set' operational mathematics, wherein the generalized principles, if apperceived in some instantaneous moment of omnicomprehension, would be seen to self-intercancel/balance to the point of exquisite zero-death-equanimity. This is a commonplace (though usually mystically wrapped) anchorpoint for lots of metaphysics, the idea then being that human comprehension being what it is (imperfect), we have Universe to experience (time, instead of eternity). Time is a constraint in the directions of big/small, of multiplication by division. We don't have enough time in Universe to compute beyond a certain number of pi-algorithm digits. The question of whether an infinite sum of rationals *is* or *will be* a real number is moot. The meaning of numbers is in their use, not in their ontological properties, whatever that means. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:24:28 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Geodesic Math and how to use it > > > /\ > A/ \A > /____\ > /\ B /\ > B/ C\ /C \B > /____\/____\ > /\ C /\ C /\ > A/ B\ C/ C\ /B \A > /____\/____\/____\ > A B A > > > A=14 > B=19.3 > C=20.5 > Note: The above numbers are in centimeters in the book, but I believe > they should work on any scale and unit of measure. hello Mike, just to encourage you, i think this is the way to make difficult things easy. i just like to add that the tringles lenght gets smaller as you go out from the center of the 3 f icosa. what we need is to start to build index page, where in critical information can be viewed quickly and easily. i have a come idea what these indexes should contain. you should get geodesic math, at least copy it. good luck Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:16:13 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: a note on synergetics language/'buckyspeak' (Re: The Shape of the Universe) >does the universe at-large have shape? universe *accomodates* shape, by >label of perception. A more significant context than universe as a 'thing' >- as a physical object within spacetime - seems universe as eternal >geometric process, accomodating infinity and stochasm without violating the >experiencial intuitions of shape and spacetime. > >-k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com stochastic process have been first introduce into biology by Lamarck i think, i actually forgot what this process of randomness mean. overall your answer quite good, but it seems to contain more than one can get out of it. perhaps the differnce is of intution, some rely more on intution than others, but i feel that somthing there quite unexpressed, perhaps in the next few years comes to explicitness. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 07:32:55 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic Math and how to use it In-Reply-To: <31059E23.A0E@wolfenet.com>; from "Mike Jackson" at Jan 23, 96 6:49 pm Mike, Please go ahead and post the additional info re dome math, etc, that you have. Any material that is posted to the Geodesic list is automatically archived for future reference by anyone anywhere in the world by searching using a keyword such as "geodesic" , "dome", math", etc. Joe PS: Do you happen to know if _Geodesic Math & How to Use It_ is in print or not? We need some hard confirmation. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:43:30 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Xiaoming Xu Organization: Graz University of Technology, Austria Subject: Postion available! The following is an anouncement on a teaching position at the Graz University of Technology, Institute for Applied Geodasy and Photogrammetry The Graz University of Technology, Institute for Applied Geodasy and Photogrammetry, invites applications for the position of teaching assistant in Cartography and digital Photogrammetry. Applicants should have Dipl.-Ing. (eqv. M.Sc.) in one of the following fields: remote sensing, image processing, cartography and photogrammetry. Expertise in VMS and Unix is desirable. It is expected that the successful applicant will conduct exercises for geodatic astronomy, Cartography and remote sensing, take part in development and research in hydride and analytical mapping systems, digital Photogrammetry. Application with a detailed curriculum vitae should be mailed to: Prof.Dr.Klaus Riessberger or: Prof.Dr.G.Brandstaetter Rechbauerstr.12 Steyrergasse 30 A-8010 Graz, AUSTRIA A-8010 Graz, AUSTRIA Tel.:+43-316-873-6330 Fax :+43-316-873-6337 Email: bt@fphotsg01.tu-graz.ac.at Closing date: 07.Feb.1996 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:28:27 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Geodesic Math And How To AVOID It > After much searching of the web and libraries, I have finally found a book >that explains exactly how to make geodesic domes. >I only became interested in geodesic domes for the purpose >of constructing a backyard greenhouse with pvc pipe. Great! Everyone should have a greenhouse. It is great fun to check on seedlings right after plowing snow off the driveway. How are you planning to connect the pipe at the 5-way and 6-way junctions? The structural strength of both schedule 40 and schedule 80 PVC is pretty good, but the joints and connections, if drilled, will tend to cause splits and cracks. I know, 'cause I prototype and "mock up" things with PVC pipe all the time. Drilled holes near the ends of a pipe are weak points. >I had no idea of just how complicated the measurements and angles >were to arrive at, and after some frustration over my failures I >began researching. Yeah, the math is a pain. So avoid it! Think about your material for a second: 1) PVC Pipe is cheap, PVC connectors are expensive. Bolts and hardware are even more expensive. 2) PVC Pipe can be "melted", softened, and bent into large-radius curves. 3) PVC Pipe is best glued, since the strength of the connection is thusly spread around the entire surface of the pipe at the joint. So, you want no connectors, glued joints, and a set of large-radius bends rather than sharp angles. Now, step back from the math a bit and think about something dome-like that is made from long stuff with no hardware... Baskets!!! Quick, go get a (roughly 1/2 sphere) bread basket. Turn it upside down on a table and stare at it. It is a DOME!!!! It was built without hardware. It is very strong (stack books on it!). It is made from long things that can be bent. It was made by someone who needs no math to make it. It was made long before Bucky started talking about domes, but it stays together and gets it strength from VERY similar principles. I built a dome like this as a greenhouse in the 80s. This is clearly NOT a geodesic dome, but it uses a lot of "Bucky's tricks", in a kinda-sideways manner. It consisted of a bunch of 1" PVC pipe. Get the stuff with the thickest walls you can find, even if this means buying the Scheudule-80 CPVC stuff. A circle of PVC pipe made the "footprint" of the dome. Yes, a circle. Plug enough PVC end-to-end, and then have a friend take one end, you take the other, and walk towards each other. Pressure alone will hold the connection together until the glue dries, but you can stake/lash the glued joint to your lawn to hold it in place which might be a better idea. The "sides" of the dome consisted of more circles of PVC, inter-linked like the Olympic logo, and all interlinked at the "peak" of the dome. (I got this whole idea when watching the Olympics while very drunk). The result is very nice. A 1/2 sphere made of circles. For those of you who are purists, the great circles ARE there, they just "jump" from one circle to the next at the peak. The usual connectors one buys at the hardware store are expensive, and NOT required. PVC pipe can be its own connector: 1) Get a deep fat fryer or a deep pan and an electric "5th burner". Set it up on the lawn. 2) Fill the fryer with cooking oil. 3) Let it heat up to a temperature appropriate to making french fries. 4) Take one of your lengths of pipe, (experiment with scraps first) and stick it into the fryer. Hold it there for maybe 3 min total. 5) When the PVC is good and soft, slide it over the end of a 1-inch thick broom stick as far as it will go. (The depth of the oil standardizes you connector lengths.) Let the assembly cool, and when the broomstick is later removed, you have a nice roughly 6-inch long female "connector" integrated into the pipe. (Heavy gloves are suggested for messing with the hot PVC and Oil). With this connector "system", I doubt that I needed glue at all. It will take a rubber hammer and a bit of force to slide the pipe all the way into the connectors, but it they are fabricated with care, you will be able to join PVC end-to-end and make very reliable connections. The general idea is to have a series of circles, each one touching the "foundation" circle at one point, and inter- linked with the adjacent circles to the left and right. Each interlink between adjacent circles is simple. Take thumbs and forefingers of each hand, and touch fingertip to thumbtip. (These represent your circles of PVC.) Open up right-hand circle, and put through left. Now rotate right hand away from you, and left hand toward you. You then have two interlinked circles, exactly as they should be all the way around the "foundataion" circle. At the peak of the dome, you have a n-way intersection of all the circles, and the ALL must be interwoven with each other. I have a diagram for this in my files, and can convert it to CAD, Windows Paintbrush, or whatever computer-readable format you can deal with if you get serious about this suggested approach. I figured it out by modeling the dome with fish-tank air pump tubing one evening. It is a good idea to do this, if nothing else than to get the rough length of pipe required for each circle. (All circles must be close to the same size, except for the "foundation" circle, which is (of course) larger. I used picture hanger wire to represent the rope lashings (see below). I lashed each and every point where two pipes "crossed" in order to keep things from sliding about. I also lashed the "vertical" circles to the "foundation" circle for obvious reasons. The "weaving" process is done on the ground, resulting in a spirograph-like pattern of the inter-woven circles flat on the ground. You then stand in the center and start lifting the entire "peak" of the dome, so that the bases of the circles all start approaching the foundation circle. Friends can push the circles inward from there, and there it stands. Now take your (high-quality) rope, and do some very nice lashings at ever point where two pipes cross. There are lots of books on lashings and knots for the non- sailors and non-Boy Scouts out there. My dome was small, (about 25-feet diameter) and I DO NOT know the limit of 1-inch PVC in this application. The plastic covering was a pain for this shape, but you have the same problem here as with a "true geodesic". I cut and "welded" the plastic sheets together with an old iron set on low temp AVOID THE "PERMANENT PRESS" SETTING ;-) following the pattern of a parachute. Is this a "geodesic dome"? Clearly not, but you have your choice here between 3000 years plus of proven basket technology and roughly 40 years of dome-building technology. Could you build a house this way? Nope, the building inspector would laugh himself silly. The good news is that greenhouses are considered "temporary structures" under the code, and therefore do not come under the control of the buulding inspector. No one can afford a truly open mind, since it would allow the first foolish idea that came along to walk in and take over the joint. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:25:15 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: Geodesic Math And How To AVOID It >From: James Fischer [edited]: > 1) PVC Pipe is cheap, PVC connectors are expensive. > Bolts and hardware are even more expensive... > > The usual connectors one buys at the hardware store > are expensive, and NOT required. PVC pipe can be > its own connector: > > 1) Get a deep fat fryer or a deep pan... > 2) Fill the fryer with cooking oil... > 5) When the PVC is good and soft, slide it over > the end of a 1-inch thick broom stick... I love your basket idea, but PVC connectors, while they will become the major expense in a fully-connected structure (not to mention the fact that the correct connectors don't *exist*) are still very practical for joining pipe ends. I would never go to the hassle you are just to avoid using a 20-cent 1" coupling! That length of broomstick (assuming you can *find* a broom the right diameter) will cost you more than the coupling. Other than that, great stuff! BTW, I am exploring how to do cheap and strong "bucky" couplings for PVC (without holes in the pipe and other flaws you mentioned.) I believe they could be mass-produced like the plumbing connectors for less than $1 each (3/4 or 1 inch). But alas, the market isn't big enough. My current homemade design runs about $.60 in materials per joint, a well-stocked shop and some setup jigs, and a slug of labor... I'm not really that happy with it. Bob (bought 300 feet of pipe on sale last week) Miller rhm@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:31:00 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DOME CALCS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION RE DOME CALCS DOME (magazine): Summer 1992, pages 42-5. See the article by Joseph D. Clinton of Clinton International Design Consultants, 334 Mackenzie Dr., West Chester, PA, USA 19380; 215-692-5725. Includes BASIC program for calculating chord factors, etc, plus references to other available computer programs. Hoflin Publishing Ltd., 1-800-352-5678; donh@hoflin.com NTIS (National Technical Information Service). See the study called "Structural Design Concepts for Future Space Missions: Progress Report for period 1-1-67 to 4-30-68", 1968, by Joseph D. Clinton; NASA Contract SCNsG-607/14-0006-002 (in public domain). Cost $ ?. http://www.fedworld.gov/ntishome.html -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:21:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Geodesic Math And How To AVOID It >> >> 1) Get a deep fat fryer or a deep pan... >> 2) Fill the fryer with cooking oil... >> 5) When the PVC is good and soft, slide it over >> the end of a 1-inch thick broom stick... > >I would never go to the hassle you are just to avoid using a >20-cent 1" coupling! That length of broomstick (assuming you >can *find* a broom the right diameter) will cost you >more than the coupling. Other than that, great stuff! Oh, I'm sorry... the single broom handle is REUSED to make all the female "connectors" on one end of each pipe. Therefore, while there is a labor cost, the materials cost approaches zero for the project as a whole. Finding the "right" diameter pipe or broomstick is a problem, as one wants something that "just fits" into the proper-size PVC connector. >BTW, I am exploring how to do cheap and strong "bucky" >couplings for PVC (without holes in the pipe and other flaws >you mentioned.) I believe they could be mass-produced like the >plumbing connectors for less than $1 each (3/4 or 1 inch). But >alas, the market isn't big enough. My current homemade design >runs about $.60 in materials per joint, a well-stocked shop and >some setup jigs, and a slug of labor... I'm not really that >happy with it. Even at $0.60 each, I'd love to see some... Got any? I'll pay whatever, love to see them. No one can afford a truly open mind, since it would allow the first foolish idea that came along to walk in and take over the joint. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 18:30:58 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Cam Daly Subject: Dome for documentary Hello. I have recently discovered Kirby Urner's list of dome manufacturers on the net, and he suggested that I send a letter to this address. I work for a documentary production company in Boston, and I am looking for a prop for a program on a human mission to Mars we are producing for the Discovery Channel. For certain exterior scenes we intend to shoot at Death Valley National Park in a couple of weeks, we need a portable geodesic dome-like structure, 10-12 feet in diameter (about) that is covered in clear greenhouse-type material. We have very little money to spend on props - ideally this would be a donation for credit in our show - but we could spend $200 if need be. Can anyone out there help me or suggest someone who can? Please e-mail me at the following address: CheddA@aol.com. That is a company account, so please put my name on the subject line. I am also easy to get by phone: 617.926.8300 or fax: 617.926.2710. Thank you so much for your help. Sincerely, Sara Finkelstein Associate Producer The Chedd-Angier Production Company ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 21:56:09 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: sleeper@CSRA.NET Subject: Re: Birdhouses and solar shelters nick@vu-vlsi.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote: >Over the last couple of months, I've been watching a homeless person who has >built himself a small homeless shelter under the 4' concrete overhang of a >parking garage on Atlantic Avenue near Court Street in Brooklyn, next door >to Saint Vincent's Family and Children's care center. Nick, Not to bash your ideas, but here is my opinion. I feel that All americans should have a place to live, a shelter to call home. Before we send money overseas, all americans should have a place to stay and food to eat, but........... >A lot of homeless people in cities are mentally ill, and very suspicious, and >not inclined to stay in city shelters, because city shelters are dangerous... Yeah, many people that are homeless are mentally ill - you think the city gov would accept that resoncibility for care for homeless mentally ill people - people that probably don't pay taxes? And when the other homeless in other cities here of these free homes? They'll probably move en mass to your city. What is going to happen when one of the homeless cuts the throat of another with a can lid because he tried to take over his "tank'? A study in Denver, Colorado ( sorry, I cannot site the reference) gave out tickets redeemable for a free meal. Over 2000(?) were given out. On the back was a msg "If you want a job, we might be able to find you one." Only one ticket was redeemed. I'm playing a little of the Devil's advocate here, but I can just see the rich people in your city and the politicians going " Yeah, great idea, but NOT in MY city!" Remember, there but for the grace of god go I. Later ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 13:57:27 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: syn-l: Re: The Shape of the Universe Comments: To: "teleport.com geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu woops; I don't think that Fermat had found les eqautions intrinsique for cuves. rather, he implicitly used equations to generate plane- curves that were not strictly constructable (compasses) or mechanically constructible, as Descartes would only do; for instance, the "hyperbolae de Fermat". in other words, they could on;y be plotted/approximated, not drawn ... well, I guess that the ordinary hyperbola (and nonciruclar conics) are not ... no; you can construct any point with quadratic co-ordinates, or one, or wome thing (nevermind .-) ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 04:35:00 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: stochasm (Re: a note on synergetics language) me: >>universe as eternal geometric process, accomodating infinity and stochasm tagdi: > stochastic process have been first introduce into biology by Lamarck > i think, i actually forgot what this process of randomness mean. i think of randomness in terms of predictability. if i gave you the sequence '1 2 3 4 5' you would be able to anticipate that '6' should come next. a random sequence would be one that has no discernible pattern, i.e. there is no way to calculate what the next number will be. this doesn't mean that there isn't a *reason* for the next number; it simply means you have no *access* to the reason. randomness is subjective. if you roll dice, there is no way of knowing what you will roll next... unless you have access to some mythical gizmo that can calculate the staggering amount of real-world geometric interactions that would be going on. if one system interacts with another in an 'irrelevant', unplanned way, stochasm is at work. static on a phone line is the interference of physical factors that are ignored and unused by the mechanism. stochasm in evolution works the same way, as complex ecologies interact and interfere with each other, producing arbitrary, unpredicable results which are sometimes evolutionarily useful. stochasm applied in scientific discovery allows us to model this unpredictability by using formulas to generate 'pseudo-random numbers', which are unpredictable only to the extent that one is unaware of the relatively simply calculations behind them. by using unpredictability, it is possible to discover interesting paths of exploration that on superficial examination might seem insignificant to a supposedly optimum search pattern. -k. erixon - setebos@wolfenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:50:53 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Roman Subject: Please take ubs!edw@uunet.uu.net off list Comments: To: ubs!uunet!ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu!geodesic@uunet.uu.net Please take ubs!edw@uunet.uu.net off your mailing list. He no longer receives his mail here. Thanks, --- John Roman UBS Securities, Inc. ubs!jon@uunet.uu.net 212-821-6143 office ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 09:38:26 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Merc Martinelli Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project James, Intro: I am a wanna-be dome owner who is very familiar with the geodesic dome kit market (as opposed to an "expert" who has actually built domes). For what it's worth, I thought I might throw in my $0.02. Oh yes, I have no $$ interest in any of the companies I am about to mention, I am just pointing out examples for you to consider. Note: I have edited your original post down to only the items where I could provide value. My comments: > A2) The basic frame is constructed from 2 x 6s. > The hardware to connect the 2 x 6s does NOT > project beyond the upper and lower profile > of the 2 x 6s, so the use of slightly longer > bolts would allow a nut to be imbedded in > some of the sheets of plywood, hence allowing > a basic "skin" to be bolted to the framework. >From viewing the Natural Spaces marketing video, it appears to me the "bolts" are really press-fit pins that are hammered into place during assembly. If true, you will have to obtain bolts slightly smaller in diameter to make it work like you want. This in turn may effect the strength of the structure. > B) Creating "jig panels" to hold wood, bolts and other > attachment points for everything that is not ferrocement. > This is a tough one, since it is obvious that the dome > should be able to support a beam that runs across the dome, > but could one expect a beam supported by the ferrocement > alone to handle the loads required for a 2nd floor? Not sure of the math, but at least two of the wooden kit manufacturers, Timberline and Geodomes (was Monterey a few years ago?) have developed methods to suspend the second floor from the dome itself. The Timberline concept features a joist connector that links to the "hub" connector, while the Geodomes method is to attach the joists to the "struts". In either case, the implication is that the shell can support the second floor, although it is difficult to determine from the literature if this means "no posts" or just "no posts around the perimeter". I would suspect that a ferrocement dome would also be capable of supporting similar loads? > C2) Suggestions > on floorplans would be welcome, as the sample floorplans > suggested by the Dome-kit vendor (Natural Spaces Domes, > of North Branch MN) show a shocking lack of thought. I find that each vendor has their own philosophy in this department. In general there seem to be two schools of thought: a) "radial designs" that focus on maximum aesthetic impact, or b) "rectilinear designs" that emphasize use of standard construction techniques to minimize costs. To get a good overview, you might want to contact some of the vendors on Joe Moore's (joemoore@cruzio.com) list at web site - http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html. Many of the vendors have color brochures and videos which are full of good ideas. Not clear from your email if you have only the one set of plans that came with the dome, but if so, you may want to get a copy of the plans book from Natural Spaces titled "Domes Come True" for a greater selection of designs specific to your dome. > C3) Suggestions on ANY point are needed here. I cannot take > it upon myself to make unilateral decisions, when the > stakes are high. You might want to take a look at the approach of American Ingenuity, Inc. They sell ferrocement panels (with interior EPS insulation in place, eliminating the "stick to the struts" issue), which are erected over a hub & strut structure while the seams "cure". All in all quite similar to your concept, except that the ferrocement is done in a factory. The suggestion in the literature is then to recycle the wood for interior walls, but your idea of using the wood for the next dome would work as well I suspect. Key Domes and Monolithic Constructors, also on Joe's list, might be good contacts as well. I realize this is getting away from the DIY method, but I thought you might be interested anyway. Good luck. I admire your work. Merc Martinelli martinel@cisco.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 20:55:29 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe Brian Hutchings wrote: >[please include this to Geodesic; I'm still incognito, somehow.] It came through. You're not incognito. >I wasn't joking about anything, as Bucky practically worshipped Einstein. >he may've laready had the idea, pre'33 and pre-Minkowski's blinding idea, >that 4 dimensions could somehow be spatially accomodated, but it seems that >his Einstein's legendary meeting (and recommendation) may have retarded >his thinking on the whole subject; like, >Bucky's trademark sign & "4D Timestrike" (or whatever the phrase was) seem >to show this influence. 4D Timelock. Actually, the influences were many, and are best laid forth in the book: Linda Dalrymple Henderson's The Fourth Dimension and Non-Euclidean Geometry in Modern Art (Princeton University Press, 1983). Here's a relevant quote from my paper (ON REDEFINING "DIMENSION" IN SYNERGETICS): QUOTE Henderson says Fuller first became interested in the fourth dimension "in 1914 when William James Siddis gave lectures on the subject to the Harvard Mathematics Department (Fuller letter to the author, 2 Oct. 1979)".[4] Her focus is Fuller's 4D Time Lock (1928) wherein Fuller notes his debt to Claude Bragdon, to whom he sent a copy of the first, mimeographed edition, along with a letter reading: "Your books Architecture and Democracy, as well as Tertium Organum which you uncovered, as well as your many researches and associations with the matter concerned in the paper, urges upon us the necessity of having your study and comment on it." [5] Henderson devotes an important chapter of her book to Bragdon's influential role in evolving the 4D concept. Like Charles Hinton, whose books on the fourth dimension Bragdon read, and like P.D. Ouspensky, the Russian mystic and author of Tertium Organum (mentioned above by Fuller), Bragdon invested a lot of metaphysical significance in the 4D concept.[6] In drawing inspiration and ideas from contemporary physics (i.e. Relativity) to explore human potential, to suggest new possibilities for transcendence, Bragdon continued a literary thread closely intertwined with physics to this day. Fuller, given both his devotion to comprehensivity as an underlying principle for his thinking, and his vision of humanity's potential to generate sufficiently vast quantities of life-support to overcome poverty, must have felt sympathetic towards these forays into futuristic metaphysics. In the late 1920s Fuller was busy questioning the Euclidean pillars on which much of the crumbling Newtonian ediface was based -- but so were a lot of people. It was a time of ferment and anything seemed possible, including a breakthrough in human consciousness that would lead to a new civilization. The same threads live on in our culture today, although the novelty of the Einsteinian and quantum mechanical paradigms has largely worn away, at least within popular culture and the humanities. Today we look to other concepts (e.g. "chaos") to fuel our hopes for a better tomorrow. UNQUOTE For the full text of this paper: ftp.teleport.com /pub/users/pdx4d/docs syn4d.doc <-- Word 6.0 format (best if you can) syn4d.rtf <-- Rich Text Format Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 21:19:05 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL wrote: >> >>What you need to do is sit back in your easy chair, close your eyes >>and visualize Cartesian space with nice curved hyperbolic coordinates >>going thru it...now switch gears and imagine the hyperbolic >>coordinates as "flat" (which is a relative term) and now suddenly, >>the Cartesian space is curved!! Now, if you are a mathematical genius, >>imagine what sphericial coordinates look like in hyperbolic space! >>(If you're not, you can do a bit of graphing.) Poincare did some of the groundbreaking around the 'geodesics' concept, recognizing their 'straightness' was a matter of viewpoint. By definition though, they're the shortest distance between two points -- so if they look curved to you, you're not in "their" reference frame. I agree that what's at stake in this thread is the meaning we attach to the word 'shape.' I think Fuller's assertion that Universe doesn't have one is vis-a-vis a very mundane and obvious meaning of 'shape': "I'm sure you have often said to yourself: I wonder what's outside the 'outside.' That question assumes a static, instant, sculptural, single-frame concept of Universe, which sculptural, static array has an 'outside.' But you cannot have an outside to a scenario." (Synergetics Dictionary, 3:218:2) For Fuller, Universe is shapeless in much the same sense that our dreams are shapeless. Events are tuned against a background of novents, untuned nothing. No single coordinate system stretches across it all: we only tune in a coordinate system locally, and from that local viewpoint we can talk as globally about Universe as we are able. Kirby -------------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "All realities are virtual" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 03:20:28 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Pat Shelton Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe In article <4e3j5d$qvl@newsbf02.news.aol.com> hopclover@aol.com (HopClover) writes: >pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) wrote: > >> Your definition is not mundane, pedestrian or in the dictionary. >> It is ok with me if you set up a "private language" but it is >> not interesting. > > Maybe I'm not following you because we're defining shape differently. How >would you define it? > >> Many (mathematical) objects do not exist in Open Webster's and pick a definition. >> space but still can be visualized or drawn. > > The mathematical objects of which you speak are ideas of real world >shapes or ideas of shapes which could not exist in our world. (for example >a 10-deminsional model of the universe's "10-dimensional shape") I'm >talking about real world objects. If I visualize (or draw) something, say >my tv set, it is true that my visualazation may not have shape or even >exist in space, but the actual tv set does. I'm talking about real world >objects, not the mathematical representations of them. > If you are gutting mathematics of a concept of shape we are in trouble and you are if your definition of shape does not include mathematical objects, after all that is the way we understand the universe now is as a mathematical object. > > When did I say that space can't have a shape? I said that, if modern >science is correct when is claims that the universe does not have edges or >boundaries, then the universe does not have shape. I believe that for a Could you give a reference for this? Hawking, in A Brief History of Time, discusses this at length without reaching a conclusion. Besides, if you are referring to the discussions I think you are you have not fully understood them. It is difficult to change conceptual frameworks. However, there are a great many shapes that turn in on themselves that have no edges or boundaries. Escher enjoyed drawing such things. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:11:05 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: a note on synergetics language/'buckyspeak' (Re: The Shape Comments: To: "RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Lamarck was the one that came-up with Spontaneous Adaptation, as #opposed# to "random" mutation. see, also, Lysenko, Imanishi, McClintock (the latter for how it happens .-) ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:23:59 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Hippocratic Oath for Scientists Comments: To: "Novell.COM geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu there ARE a few webreaders available for reading newsgroups, although I'm unsure whether any or all of'em require pre-processing (like, insertion onto a website, I guess, as it were); probably! On Wed, 24 Jan 96 19:05:40 GMT, Lawrence Couey wrote: > Subject: Re: Hippocratic Oath for Scientists > > In article , > Brian Hutchings wrote: > }>well, at least, they did the research; > }>they have a booklet for 3 pounds & 95 pence (?) > }>that purports to list all of the known ethical codes for scientists!... > }>unfortunately, not everyone agrees that weaponeering is unmitigated evil, > }>esp.if they're not supporters of Pugwash, the UN and collateral world- > }>governmental groupings. > }> > }>[someone please tell me if this is appearing on the list !-] > }>{Bill; thank you .-} > }> > }>----- > }>"Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": > }>Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. > }>----- > }>On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com > > It would be nice if the contents were available through ftp and/or www. > > Lawrence C. > > ==> What I think is what I think. > ==> What my employer thinks is what he thinks. > ==> Sometimes there is a union, > ==> sometimes an intersection, > ==> and sometimes an empty set. > > -- Lawrence_Couey@Novell.COM ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 18:32:29 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Jackson Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C. Subject: Re: Geodesic Math and how to use it tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL wrote: /\ A/ \A /____\ /\ B /\ B/ C\ /C \B /____\/____\ /\ C /\ C /\ A/ B\ C/ C\ /B \A /____\/____\/____\ A B A A=14 B=19.3 C=20.5 Note: The above numbers are in centimeters in the book,but believe they should work on any scale and unit of measure. > hello Mike, > just to encourage you, i think this is the way to make difficult things > easy.i just like to add that the tringles lenght gets smaller as you go out > from the center of the 3 f icosa. what we need is to start to build index > page, where in critical information can be viewed quickly and easily. > i have a come idea what these indexes should contain. > you should get geodesic math, at least copy it. > good luck > Tagdi Tagdi, I realize that the top and bottom corner triangles should be curved inward to represent the curve of the sphere, but ascii art is ascii art. If you repeat the above face triangle pattern 8 times, you have an octahedron. If you repeat it 20 times, you have an icosahedron. Both are 3v. You use the same dimensions in the face triangle no matter which face triangle you happen to be working on. Are you talking about making a home page related to geodesics? That would be nice, there is so little information available on this fascinating subject that has nearly become extinct in terms of interest level. BTW, I have the book Geodesic Math and how to use it. Thanks, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 18:59:36 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Jackson Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C. Subject: Re: Geodesic Math And How To AVOID It James Fischer wrote: Hello James, First of all, thanks for the book, I mean the reply.. hehe > Great! Everyone should have a greenhouse. It is great > fun to check on seedlings right after plowing snow off > the driveway. Greenhouses are cool. I have been wanting one for a long time, and when I saw the cost of a cheaply constructed one at a home improvement store ($999 for a 5x8 house) I said to myself, I could spend 1/4 to 1/2 that much and build something really large, better, and unique. I decided on a geodesic one, after seeing some on the web. I didn't like the ones I seen, though. They had 2x6's for struts. I didn't want something that weighed a ton and cost that much. I want to be able to move it around the yard if I so desire. > > How are you planning to connect the pipe at the 5-way > and 6-way junctions? The structural strength of both > schedule 40 and schedule 80 PVC is pretty good, but > the joints and connections, if drilled, will tend to > cause splits and cracks. I know, 'cause I prototype > and "mock up" things with PVC pipe all the time. > Drilled holes near the ends of a pipe are weak points. > I had an idea today, while driving home from work. I thought about using some of that metal strapping with holes down the middle every 1/4 inch or so. I thought that this would be easy to connect at the vertex with one bolt and nut. You could cross 3 equal lengths for a 6-way connector, for a 5-way connector you could cut 5 equal lengths and connect them all together at one end, etc. They could be easily bent, and would eventually fall naturally during the construction process into the correct angles. To attach them, I had thought of drilling a hole through the pvc maybe not so near the end, and using bolt and nut, with washers on both sides to connect them. In fact, the strapping could be lengthened enough to accomodate two holes on each strut. The hole furthest from the vertex could be fastened with a bolt, and the hole closest could be connected with a cord to the strap releiving tension from the bolt hole and therefore reducing stress to approximately half on each drilled hole. It also lends a bit of flexibility to the structure, which I understand is necessary for all structures in order to keep from breaking, etc... I had planned to cover each separate triangle with plexiglass type greenhouse material. For connecting to the frame, I thought about connecting these not on top of the triangles to form the skin, but inside of the triangle (not inside of the dome) that way, you don't have to worry about trying to match the edges together and there is less of a sealing problem. > I built a dome like this as a greenhouse in the 80s. > This is clearly NOT a geodesic dome, but it uses a lot > of "Bucky's tricks", in a kinda-sideways manner. > > > The result is very nice. A 1/2 sphere made of > circles. For those of you who are purists, > the great circles ARE there, they just "jump" > from one circle to the next at the peak. > My dome was small, (about 25-feet diameter) and I DO NOT > know the limit of 1-inch PVC in this application. That's about the size I was hoping to build. > No one can afford a truly open mind, since it would allow the first > foolish idea that came along to walk in and take over the joint. That is very true, maybe that is one of my problems... Thanks, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:48:36 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Geodesic Math And How To AVOID It Comments: To: "SUPERCOLLIDER.COM geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu not geodesic, only in that "geodesics" are defined to be great circles, instead of lesser circles ... that's really neat, but why wouldn't you weave the small ones with your basal (say, equatorial, maybe) one?... the math might really be interesting as, except for the linking, it's a lot like Apollonian circles, esp."circle chains" between 2 concentric circles, with your central circle just being a point (apparently; well, that's impossible for a circle-chain, it seems, so that hte linking isn't exactly trivial ... nevermind .-)... anyway, do try it with another circle at top, and look into the subject of circle-chains, if you'd be happy to get into some complex (using the 2nd root of -1) math -- I still don't get it, but it's the high road to planar geometry!... you should be able to get each circle to touch only 4 others, is the point. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:24:34 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: syn-l: Re: The Shape of the Universe Comments: To: "teleport.com geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [OK, I got my "repro" back, which somehow was turned off at the listserv ofr geodesic, to "norepro"; I was on & didn't know it; I'd only copied my weave o'the thread to syn-l, because I "couldn't" get through to geodesic but, now, there's precedence .-] about "constructability", it refers to the classical, Greek sense of compass-constructions, while "mechanical" ones are those that use devices that're more complicated than a compass or, at any rate, different. probably any curve/equation is ultimately drawable by some device, and it's quite a trick to take some device for drawing a curve, and determine the latter's equation ... well, it is, to me! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:52:08 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Geodesic Math And How To AVOID It Comments: To: "HPFIRHM.FC.HP.COM geodesic"@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu ah, speaking of pipe, what's the first C in CPVC mean?... speaking of basketweaving, what's the largest dimaeter of the stuff that comes on rolls? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 01:53:18 -0500 Reply-To: HopClover Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HopClover Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) wrote: :> When did I say that space can't have a shape? I said that, if modern :>science is correct when is claims that the universe does not have edges or :>boundaries, then the universe does not have shape. I believe that for a : : Could you give a reference for this? Hawking, in A Brief History : of Time, discusses this at length without reaching a conclusion. I've never seen Hawking discuss this at length anywhere. I already gave this reference, but I'll give it again- " ...Indeed, if our spherical analogy is valid, then there is no center in the Universe. Nor is there any edge or boundary. A "flatlander" roaming forever on the surface of a three-dimensional sphere seems completely analogous to a space traveler (or any radiation) voyaging through the four-dimensional Universe. Neither ever reaches a boundary or an edge. Proceeding far enough in a given direction on the surface of the sphere, the traveler (or the radiation) would eventually return to the starting poin, just as Magellan's crew proved long ago by circumnavigating the Earth." -Eric Chaisson, "Relatively Speaking" Copyright 1988 Dr. Eric J Chaisson, published by W W Norton & Company New York, London Note the sentence, "Nor is there any edge or boundary." : Besides, if you are referring to the discussions I think you are : you have not fully understood them. It is difficult to change : conceptual frameworks. However, there are a great many shapes : that turn in on themselves that have no edges or boundaries. Escher : enjoyed drawing such things. I've seen some pretty clever Escher drawings, but I've yet to see one so clever that it has shapes which lack edges or boundaries. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:27:19 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Geodesic Math and how to use it Mike > I realize that the top and bottom corner triangles should be curved inward >to represent the curve of the sphere, but ascii art is ascii art. If you >repeat the above face triangle pattern 8 times, you have an octahedron. If >you repeat it 20 times, you have an icosahedron. Both are 3v. You use the >same dimensions in the face triangle no matter which face triangle you happen >to be working on. Are you talking about making a home page related to >geodesics? That would be nice, there is so little information available on >this fascinating subject that has nearly become extinct in terms of interest >level. BTW, I have the book Geodesic Math and how to use it. > >Thanks, >Mike Greetings Mike good, as you see in that book you can make the tringles flat on the table, and after you finish you can bring them together to get the oct or icos. i think you know this. what i mean by indexes is page where you found in each index a group of data. it can be about anything of importance, but remmber they have to be easy to comprehend giving that it takes 25% more time to read from c screen. i am not sure if many will like the idea, but i hope soon i write a sample. quick view, more learning. an example with be what is fold symmetry, solar data, gases law, charcterestic of alloys, high f icosa we will see what comes off it. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:31:32 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe >>pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) wrote: Hi to the group discussing U. shape could one of you please summarize the discussion, it is getting a bit confussing. may be becuse the discussion have no shape. thanks Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 19:13:53 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Jackson Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C. Subject: Re: Geodesic Math And How To AVOID It Bob Miller wrote: > BTW, I am exploring how to do cheap and strong "bucky" > couplings for PVC (without holes in the pipe and other flaws > you mentioned.) I believe they could be mass-produced like the > plumbing connectors for less than $1 each (3/4 or 1 inch). But > alas, the market isn't big enough. My current homemade design > runs about $.60 in materials per joint, a well-stocked shop and > some setup jigs, and a slug of labor... I'm not really that > happy with it. Take a look at my other post regarding the strap connector idea I had today. I think you will find it interesting. I believe that this method involves a whole lot less labor, and all you have to do is cut the straps and connect them with a bolt. They will achieve proper angles as the dome is assembled. Another idea, go buy some clothesline rope in 100 foot lengths and run it inside of the pipes sort of like shock cord. The path of the cord would have to follow some sort of pattern, and each pipe would possibly need two cords running through it. Later, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:05:32 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Polyethylene films and PVC pipe It might be a good idea to check the compatibility of the film used to cover a PVC greenhouse. Ordinary poly film doesn't last very long outdoors, but greenhouse poly film treated with UV inhibitors has a 3 year guarantee. However, consider this quote from a CT film application note in the back of the Stuppy ((800) 877-5025) greenhouse catalog: Colorless film should not be used on greenhouses framed with PVC. Only 602 should be used on PVC structures. Using colorless films on PVC structures will significantly shorten the film life. I think there is some sort of chemical incompatibility going on here. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 14:59:51 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Miller Subject: buckyjoints >From: Mike Jackson >Take a look at my other post regarding the strap connector idea I had today. >I think you will find it interesting. I believe that this method involves a >whole lot less labor, and all you have to do is cut the straps and connect >them with a bolt. They will achieve proper angles as the dome is assembled. >Another idea, go buy some clothesline rope in 100 foot lengths and run it >inside of the pipes sort of like shock cord. The path of the cord would have >to follow some sort of pattern, and each pipe would possibly need two cords >running through it. The strap connector was interesting enough that I saved the article ... Thanks. But tying the pipes together with rope threaded through them doesn't work. I thought it might, and so built a soda-straw and string structure to check it out (I don't know the correct terms--anyone want to post a FAQ on geodesic nomenclature?), which was the fully-triangulated dual of the 60-vertex "buckyball". It was rather weak, tending to "jitterbug" as one stressed it. Based on this experiment, I am convinced that joints with at least some mode of rigidity are necessary for structural strength. A recomposition into the untriangulated buckyball *collapsed into a plane*...I knew it would not be structurally sound, but I didn't expect absolute limpness... I've been thinking about molding plastic again. Anyone know the properties of PVC (melting point, decomposition temp --vinyl chloride is a horrible toxin) ? Or should I check out polystyrene or polyethylene? A solid joint that slipped *into* the ends to be connected would be fairly easy to make a mold for...and it could be reinforced with a sheet-metal "star". Small geodesics have a limited number of required distortions, so only a few molds need be made. The untriangulated buckyball has only one three-strut joint distortion...at least that is what I conclude from symmetry... Or, taking a nod from Mike, a plug-plus-metal tab joint subassembly could be made of a bit of punched strap potted into a cylinder of plastic. Any arrangement could then be made, although the radial stiffness would be poor and the planar stiffness only modest... Another approach (which I'm preparing to break out the string and straws again for) would be to rigidify the cord-connected untriangulated structure (e.g.buckyball) with a double set of cord "spokes" radially arranged from the center of each hex or penta face to each vertex, with a short rigid "hub" in the center of each face, perpendicular to the sphere, tensioning the two sets of spokes.. Bob Miller rhm@hpfirhm.fc.hp.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 19:59:36 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rick Bono Subject: Re: Geodesic Math and how to use it In article <31059E23.A0E@wolfenet.com>, Jackbone@wolfenet.com says... > >Hello, > After much searching of the web and libraries, I have finally found a book >that explains exactly how to make geodesic domes. There are examples of >almost every type, with exact measurements and so on. There are also very >detailed explanations of the formulas used to calculate the factors for those >who wish to learn them. I do not. I only became interested in geodesic domes >for the purpose of constructing a backyard greenhouse with pvc pipe. I had >no idea of just how complicated the measurements and angles were to arrive >at, and after some frustration over my failures I began researching. > I'm sure that alot of people like me who are not math majors, but >nonetheless are interested in constructing a dome for one reason or another, >could really use some of the information in this book. For those of you who >are already dome experts, kindly disregard. >Later, >Mike I have used most of the formulas in Kenner's book to produce my Freeware geodesic dome program. Version 4.0 is now avilable for download. Point your web browsers to http://www.cris.com/~rjbono/html/domes.html Version 4.2 will likely be released next week and will add elliptical dome constructs. So keep watching this site. For those with FTP access dome 4.0 is available through Kirby Urner's web site. Follow the links shown at http://www.cris/com/~rjbono/index.html Rick Bono ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 15:51:13 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tom Dosemagen Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project I have a dome that was built from a Natural Spaces package and I did not have to use posts to anchor the second or third floors. All we did was use joist hangers at the top of the first course of triangles and the rest was done like a conventional house. The third floor was cantilevered over the second floor. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 20:26:33 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Dymaxion Map Comments: To: Savita Collins In-Reply-To: ; from "Savita Collins" at Jan 26, 96 2:36 pm Savita Collins writes: > > Hi Joe, > I was wondering if you had any idea where I could get a copy of a dymaxion > map(soft or hard)? Even map projection sites on the web don't make any > mention of it. > > Thanks in advance, > Savita Check out the Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute section under "Maps" at: http://metro.turnpike.net/G/GoatBoy/bucky.html If you have any trouble, let me know. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 20:53:50 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: INTERNET WHITE PAGES FYI, Anyone's email address can be found by using the free service at: http://www.Four11.com Search using last name, first name, etc. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 01:45:56 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Pat Shelton Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe In article <4e9tou$58p@newsbf02.news.aol.com> hopclover@aol.com (HopClover) writes: >pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) wrote: > >:> When did I say that space can't have a shape? I said that, if modern >:>science is correct when is claims that the universe does not have edges >or >:>boundaries, then the universe does not have shape. I believe that for a >: >: Could you give a reference for this? Hawking, in A Brief History >: of Time, discusses this at length without reaching a conclusion. > > I've never seen Hawking discuss this at length anywhere. I already gave >this reference, but I'll give it again- > " ...Indeed, if our spherical analogy is valid, then there is no center >in the >Universe. Nor is there any edge or boundary. A "flatlander" roaming >forever >on the surface of a three-dimensional sphere seems completely analogous to >a >space traveler (or any radiation) voyaging through the four-dimensional >Universe. Neither ever reaches a boundary or an edge. Proceeding far >enough >in a given direction on the surface of the sphere, the traveler (or the >radiation) would eventually return to the starting poin, just as >Magellan's >crew proved long ago by circumnavigating the Earth." > -Eric Chaisson, "Relatively Speaking" Copyright 1988 Dr. Eric J >Chaisson, >published by W W Norton & Company New York, London > > Note the sentence, "Nor is there any edge or boundary." > Sure but he says it has not edges or boundaries >because its spherical<, this is a >shape<, the whole point is that the universe can have many shapes without edges or boundaries and still be bounded and finite, or unbounded and finite or bounded or infinite or.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:10:21 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project wait a second -- #interior# insulation of ferrocement?... I hate that method of wasting a good thermal mass, if it can possibly be avoided!... anyway, James, how does one determine alternating triga in an icosahedral trigation (whether frequencied or not) ?? ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:39:54 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: a note on synergetics language/'buckyspeak' (Re: The Shape >Lamarcke oops; Lamarcke (un dood Francais .-)... I don't know if "spontaneous" was the correct adjective, but it'd now refer to the probability that information doesn't strictly go only #from# DNA. ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:30:41 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe to hit on some noted miscellany of today's mail.... I was wrong about there being no corcle-chain between a circle & a point inside of it, although it's just 2 circles (touching at the point and touching the big circle, seperately) but, now, I'm not even sure if that's what James was referring to. in any case, I don't even know if circle-chains are generally possible on a sphere, as I'd unconsciously taken from their planar home!... alas, I don't think that there's any transformation that'll turn circles from the plane to circles on the sphere, but there must be ways of constructing'em on the sphere, directly (like, I think, Snelson's atomical model); also, the linking & thickness of real (CPVC or whatever) tubes will be a problem. as for the "Euclidean pillars of Newt-1" a-crumbling, there isn't much in Synergetics that is particularly noneuclidean!... anyway, if you look at the Knot Not video (and I've only seen the ad on TV), it's hyperbolic space-thing is reminiscent (is it not?) of a fisheye view of some "euclidean" network (of pillars & crossbeams, incidentally .-)... in other words, can it not simply be seen as a different viewpoint of the same thing?... this wasn't really conscious to me, til I noticed the bibliography for a piece on the Web (gloriously Lynx-connected to me) about a hyperbolical interface, which included the video, and a paper about "fisheye geometry". I don't know about Ouspensky & Gurdjief & Madame Blatavsky & Co. -- and I dont WANT to know; besides, I can't read that stuff for more than about 5', before the boredom sets in -- but I do know about Newt-1, and Euclideanism ain't the issue. indeed, euclidean & noneuclidean geometries are each internally selfconsistent, and are equally useful, insofar as we know of the boundaries of Universe or its shape, namely, we don't. Hawking goes on and on about "imaginary" time, or maybe he just speculates briefly (what I read), but it seems true that he "reaches no conclusions; well, there isn't any imaginary time from Lorentz' transformations, used in special relativity, because the term is really, ict, a distance, and the i is only there because the equation was altered to have 0 on the right side -- check it out! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:12:03 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ted Caplan Subject: Bucky Documentary I was just at the Sundance film festival in Utah this weekend and saw a wonderful new documentary about Buckminster Fuller. It focused mostly on the dymaxion car, dymaxion house and the geodesic domes. It included many expcerpts from his lectures and writings- some read by Fuller himself, some read by Spalding Gray. The archival footage of his car and house were the most extensive I have scene. The most disappointing part of the film was that they did not even mention synergetics or the global energy grid. I'm not sure where or when the film will be screened again. It was directed and produced by Karen Goodman and Kirk Simon and narrated by Sam Fuller. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:37:33 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Bucky Documentary In-Reply-To: <199601240104.RAA05216@iceland.it.earthlink.net>; from "Ted Caplan" at Jan 23, 96 5:12 pm Ted Caplan writes: > > I was just at the Sundance film festival in Utah this weekend and saw a > wonderful new documentary about Buckminster Fuller. It focused mostly on > the dymaxion car, dymaxion house and the geodesic domes. It included many > expcerpts from his lectures and writings- some read by Fuller himself, some > read by Spalding Gray. The archival footage of his car and house were the > most extensive I have scene. > The most disappointing part of the film was that they did not even > mention synergetics or the global energy grid. > I'm not sure where or when the film will be screened again. It was > directed and produced by Karen Goodman and Kirk Simon and narrated by Sam > Fuller. Can you give us some technical details such as: Color or B&W Run Time Author Publisher/Distributor Cost etc, etc. Is it possible to buy a copy? Will the Sundance organization be making it available and if so, what is their address (email & smail)? Any additional info will be deeply appreciated. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:57:41 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic Math and how to use it Comments: To: Mike Jackson In-Reply-To: <310A4564.6649@wolfenet.com>; from "Mike Jackson" at Jan 27, 96 7:31 am Mike Jackson writes: > Joe Moore wrote: > > Send the command INDEX GEODESIC to LISTSERV@UBVM.BITNET (leave subject > line blank); "index geodesic" should be the only message at the far left > (snip) > Aren't you just the bundle of resources! Thanks alot, man. Does this work for > all Usenet groups, or just the ones under bit.listserv ? That would be really > great if it worked for all of them. When a person subscribes to the Geodesic list, the computer should have sent you a letter containing the above info. Only computers using the "listserv" software provide such features as archiving, database, gatewaying, etc. Other servers use other software that is not as full-featured. Newsgroups are an entirely separate can of worms. Some are archived, and some are not. But there are search engines that can comb all the newsgroups for a keyword such as "buckminster" or "geodesic". Try: InfoSeek http://guide.infoseek.com > I will, the server was down and not responding ... Thank you for all of the > valuable info. > > Later, > Mike -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:16:26 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FERROCEMENT DOMES There's a great article in the campus newspaper of the State Univ of New York at Buffalo about Habitat for Humanity building ferrocement domes in India. See: http://wings.buffalo.edu/publications/reporter/vol25/vol25n12/9a.txt -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 09:39:27 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: CAGE & FULLER There's a very good interview of John Cage talking about his long-time friend Bucky Fuller at http://brains.race.u-tokyo.ac.jp/JohnCageInterview.html -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 05:15:32 -0500 Reply-To: HopClover Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HopClover Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe :> " ...Indeed, if our spherical analogy is valid, then there is no center :>in the :>Universe. Nor is there any edge or boundary. A "flatlander" roaming :>forever :>on the surface of a three-dimensional sphere seems completely analogous to :>a :>space traveler (or any radiation) voyaging through the four-dimensional :>Universe. Neither ever reaches a boundary or an edge. Proceeding far :>enough :>in a given direction on the surface of the sphere, the traveler (or the :>radiation) would eventually return to the starting poin, just as :>Magellan's :> -Eric Chaisson, "Relatively Speaking" Copyright 1988 Dr. Eric J :>Chaisson, :>published by W W Norton & Company New York, London :> :> Note the sentence, "Nor is there any edge or boundary." :> : Sure but he says it has not edges or boundaries >because : its spherical<, this is a >shape<, the whole point is : that the universe can have many shapes without edges or : boundaries and still be bounded and finite, or unbounded : and finite or bounded or infinite or.... He never says the universe is spherical. He is talking about 2-dimensional flatlanders. That is the >analogy< he is making. A sphere is not a shape in a 2-dimensional universe. A sphere is a shape in our cartesian space. (where by the way it >does< have edges and boundaries) One of the first things you learn in astrophysics class is that in the model of a closed universe, a space traveler can in theory travel in a straight line and return to the same location. As strange as it sounds to us, the traveler would do this without ever moving in a (3-D) curved path. His path would have always been straight. Nor would the traveler ever run in to an "edge" of the universe. I've still yet to see a definition of shape that says something can have shape without having edges. (and yes I checked Webster's at your suggestion) Now you may be saying to yourself that the 2-dimensional flatlander-mathmetician could on paper add a third dimension and find a shape to his "spherical" universe. This is true, but this "shape" could not be a shape in the universe he knows anymore than the 10-dimensional "shapes" (that the mathmeticians in this year's January Scientific American are finding to represent our universe) could exist in ours. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 14:30:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project >I have a dome that was built from a Natural Spaces package Do you recall the model number of the dome, or do you know the diameter? >and I did not have to use posts to anchor the second or third floors. >All we did was use joist hangers at the top of the first course of >triangles and the rest was done like a conventional house. This is a great clue! I have been talking with natural spaces. Thanks! No one can afford a truly open mind, since it would allow the first foolish idea that came along to walk in and take over the joint. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:02:58 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Jackson Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C. Subject: Re: Geodesic Math and how to use it tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL wrote: Greetings Mike good, as you see in that book you can make the tringles flat on the table, and after you finish you can bring them together to get the oct or icos. i think you know this. what i mean by indexes is page where you found in each index a group > of data. it can be about anything of importance, but remmber they have > to be easy to comprehend giving that it takes 25% more time to read > from c screen. > i am not sure if many will like the idea, but i hope soon i write > a sample. quick view, more learning. an example with be what > is fold symmetry, solar data, gases law, charcterestic of alloys, high > f icosa > we will see what comes off it. Tagdi, I'm not sure I follow you exactly. You want me to post the data tables from the indexes? If you want any info from the book, e-mail me and I will give the specifics to you. I think that you have a good idea, and should go with it. This is an area that is pretty mystic, and any information you collect and post/make a home page from will help to make the internet a better resource for ourselves and children. Later, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 21:13:24 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Polyethylene films and PVC pipe Nick Pine warned: >However, consider this quote from a CT film application note in the back >of the Stuppy ((800) 877-5025) greenhouse catalog: > > Colorless film should not be used on greenhouses framed with PVC. > Only 602 should be used on PVC structures. Using colorless films on > PVC structures will significantly shorten the film life. > >I think there is some sort of chemical incompatibility going on here. ...which can be solved with a few gallons of paint and a long narrow dip trough made from (surprise!) a length of 4" PVC. Go for a nice day-glo metal-flake color, make a statement! No one can afford a truly open mind, since it would allow the first foolish idea that came along to walk in and take over the joint. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:20:32 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project Tom, how was your 3rd cantilevered over your 2nd floor? Rick, will your program output the dihedrals between facets, and the angles between edges? Mike, good proviso of maybe having TWO shock-cords through each tube; I don't think that the single-circuit, a la the problem of the Koenigsburg Bridge (Euler), is do-able for an icosah.network, but it might be in twosies, and it surely can be done with one circuit around each trigon, which might even be preferable, tension- and around-the-bend-wise. anyway, none of this deals with the FIT of the pipe-ends together, like they could if properly shaped, which is why I asked Rick about the angles, nor with any details of ... anything! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:56:49 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe Comments: To: "ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu synergetics-l"@teleport.com hm; re Nuke Knot, I now seem to recall that the cells made of the pillar-like elements in the video were actually pentag.dodecah., in that fisheye mode, but I can say nothing else about it, if that; anyone?... anyway, another "model" for hyperbolic space is a PD, with its opposite facets joined (after a pi/5 twist), or so it is said, so I don't know whether hyperbol.space is generally considered to be finite but unbounded, like that (note that the edges of the PD may not be necessarily in that particular position within this whacky, little space, but only there for the constructions and/or definiteness ("definity"). as for "ict", which gives -cctt when squared, I just perused the introductory parts of Linus Paulings' early book on relativity, and I can't see why, yet, that it was done, except to change the sign of the t-term to plus -- but that is unneeded to maintain "homogeneity" of coordination, as far as I know. in any case, it's equally valid to put (subtract from both sides) the XYZ terms on the other side, and use the "imaginary" quaternion units, i,j,k, to liekwise change #their# signs, when squared (ii=jj=kk= -1), and it's probably appropriate, since Gibbs' vector-notation fell right out of quaternions. in other words, make the distances imaginary & the "lightcone" distance, real -- with the proviso that the lightcone is the silliest piece of obfuscation that there is! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:04:27 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: NEW FULLER PROJECTION MAP FULLER PROJECTION MAP (LATEST VERSIONS) A 4km cloud-free composite-satellite-image Fuller Projection Map created using a computer program written by Robert Gray and Jim Knighton and processed by Robert, Stacey and Knighton is now available. Paper: Buckminster Fuller Institute 2040 Alameda Padre Serra, Suite 224 Santa Barbara, CA 93103 Email: bfi@aol.com TEL: 805-962-0022 FAX: 805-962-4440 Digital: Robert Stacey, President WorldSat International 3370 South Service Road Burlington, Ontario, Canada, L7N 3M6 Email: worldsat@geomatics.com TEL: 905-333-9191 FAX: 905-333-9137 Information provided by Tony DeVarco (DeVarco@aol.com) For additional info see Robert W. Gray's web pages at: http://vivanet.com/~rwgray9 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:08:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Polyethylene films and PVC pipe james fischer writes: >>I think there is some sort of chemical incompatibility going on here. > > ...which can be solved with a few gallons of paint and a long > narrow dip trough made from (surprise!) a length of 4" PVC. > Go for a nice day-glo metal-flake color, make a statement! Sounds good (a few gallons?) The CT people also recommend latex paint, and suggest making the surface a light color to where it touches the film to reduce the film temperature in the sun, saying that film life is improved with white paint on the top side of wood rafters, for instance, vs bare wood. And they recommend two layers of poly film inflated with an air pressure of 0.2-0.3" of water to add wind resistance, and suggest that one shouldn't leave soap or detergent in contact with the film. Doesn't bode well for soap bubble beadwall for night insulation... Nick ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:48:45 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Pat Shelton Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe In article <4ecu04$lm8@newsbf02.news.aol.com> hopclover@aol.com (HopClover) writes: >:> " ...Indeed, if our spherical analogy is valid, then there is no center >:>in the >:>Universe. Nor is there any edge or boundary. A "flatlander" roaming >:>forever >:>on the surface of a three-dimensional sphere seems completely analogous >to >:>a >:>space traveler (or any radiation) voyaging through the four-dimensional >:>Universe. Neither ever reaches a boundary or an edge. Proceeding far >:>enough >:>in a given direction on the surface of the sphere, the traveler (or the >:>radiation) would eventually return to the starting poin, just as >:>Magellan's >:> -Eric Chaisson, "Relatively Speaking" Copyright 1988 Dr. Eric J >:>Chaisson, >:>published by W W Norton & Company New York, London >:> >:> Note the sentence, "Nor is there any edge or boundary." >:> > He never says the universe is spherical. He is talking about He says three times in this short quote he is talking about a sphere and spherical analogy. >2-dimensional flatlanders. That is the >analogy< he is making. A sphere is >not a shape in a 2-dimensional universe. A sphere is a shape in our Hawking points out in his book that a sphere is two dimensional. >cartesian space. (where by the way it >does< have edges and boundaries) Please define the edge of a sphere in cartesian space. >One of the first things you learn in astrophysics class is that in the >model of a closed universe, a space traveler can in theory travel in a >straight line and return to the same location. As strange as it sounds to >us, the traveler would do this without ever moving in a (3-D) curved path. This is, of course, intro stuff. >His path would have always been straight. Nor would the traveler ever run >in to an "edge" of the universe. I've still yet to see a definition of >shape that says something can have shape without having edges. (and yes I >checked Webster's at your suggestion) I don't recall any definition that refers to an edge or outside of anything. However, I have already given you an example of this, any book on any mathematical subject (these days) will give you the mathematical definition of a "ball" and a non-closed ball is an an example of a shape without an edge. And your assertion that you are talking about the real world (whatever that is) and not mathematics is absurd as the only knowledge we have of the universe and how it functions is mathematics (not just mathematical). The other data is just disorganized facts that will some day fit we're just not clever enough yet. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:06:21 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Brant Subject: Re: Bucky Documentary No mention of the Global Energy Grid? Excuse me while I vent a little here. This documentary has been under development at least since I first heard about it in 1990. (At that time,all the people who belonged to the Bucky Fuller Institute were invited to celebrate his life at John Denver's Windstar Foundation's Choices for the Future Symposium in Aspen, CO.) Info I was sent at the time said that an American Masters documentary was being produced by the Simon & Goodman Film Co. (American Masters being the Public Television series on famous Americans) Since I don't have any knowledge of the kinds of contact that Simon and Goodman had with people like us as they developed their film, I'll just say that -- if your report is accurate -- yet another opportunity has been lost to present Bucky's work as more than a "curiosity point in the history of American inventors." It sounds as if the film will offer precious little context for seeing Bucky's extraordinary relevance to today's world. All one has to do is look at the ongoing contamination of society by the "us against them/we can't all make it" mentality -- congress is absolutely infested with it, that's why all the "moderates" are quitting -- to know what I mean. Bucky's primary message is "We can all make it. We have the technology." However, in order to make it, we're going to have to start learning how to work together. President Clinton almost made the complete point in his State of the Union, when he talked about us all working together and not creating a "survival of the fittest" culture. What he didn't mention is that we need to learn how to cooperate. We must learn to give up the old psychology of "win-lose" and replace it with a "win-win" psychology (something Stephen Covey teaches pretty well.) That's it for now. I would very much appreciate it if the person who saw the film would offer additional commentary based on my above expressed concerns. Thanks for listening, everyone. Steve Brant ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:07:11 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: The Butterfly Subject: Re: Geodesic Math And How To AVOID It In-Reply-To: <310846F1.1D78@wolfenet.com> (message from Mike Jackson on Thu, 25 Jan 1996 19:13:53 -0800) -Take a look at my other post regarding the strap connector idea I had today. -I think you will find it interesting. I believe that this method involves a -whole lot less labor, and all you have to do is cut the straps and connect -them with a bolt. They will achieve proper angles as the dome is assembled. -Another idea, go buy some clothesline rope in 100 foot lengths and run it -inside of the pipes sort of like shock cord. The path of the cord would have -to follow some sort of pattern, and each pipe would possibly need two cords -running through it. - -Later, -Mike - - I missed the original post on the strap method, but it sounds like one I use in some smaller jitterbug models. I used vinyl tubing, with one tube sliced lengthwise on two "sides" of the tube, and another tube passed through, so that it forms an "X". This is used in some of the commercial jitterbugs, but their tubing is very flexible, and has little support. With these 4-point hubs, you just mount a plastic rod into the tubing, and the whole structure takes shape without calculating angles (indeed, the angles change whenever you flex the structure). I was thinking of scaling this up for a greenhouse, and using either PVC tubes or wooden dowels, with flexible garden hose. You could cross 3 sections of hose, and put a bolt through the middle, providing you with 6 or 5 point hubs (with an occaisional dangly bit, unless you trim it). I'm intrigued by the concept of a flexible building. If a tree branch fell on it, the wall could just pop back out, or be pushed out by hand. It provides virtual proof against earthquakes, and is, of course, incredibly cheap to mass-produce. Just a few thoughts. Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury Web: http://www.visionware.com/pat.html Mail with "send-file-info-please" in subject line to get my public-files list. ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 11:05:13 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Shape of Universe (no outside; just One) hey, you "have a point" -- although "finite but unbounded" appears to MEAN spherical in some spooky, 4D sense, we neither know how that works, except in some hyperdefintiional hyperspace of hyperspheres and hyperflats etc.ad vomitorium, nor do we actually know that it is finite, as beloved by Buckafka Fullofit & Einstein=mcc! ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:37:21 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: Bucky Documentary >is "We can all make it. We have the technology." However, in order to make >it, we're going to have to start learning how to work together. >President Clinton almost made the complete point in his State of the Union, >when he talked about us all working together and not creating a "survival of >the fittest" culture. What he didn't mention is that we need to learn how to >cooperate. We must learn to give up the old psychology of "win-lose" and >replace it with a "win-win" psychology (something Stephen Covey teaches >pretty well.) hi Steve, the languge that all can make it is not familiar to most people. most are in a daze thinking life is just a joke, some are pessimist. you have all kind of deviation. i think fuller ideas must penetrate into the information culture by diffirent means. i myself have sent few letters one to the white house, another to the student organization of U.S. i talked about Fuller utopia blueprint, and few other ideas such as giving 50 million people permenent scholarship. i would not be surprised if [c]linton have red one of Fuller books. somehow fuller was relaxed about the whole situation, i wonder how that could be. soon i send a copy from vision 65 to president of the soviet union. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:13:00 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andrea Chase Subject: Re: Bucky Documentary In-Reply-To: <9601270837.aa16775@inside.cruzio.com> Joe, The information on the Bucky film that I have is: Buckminster Fuller: Thinking Out Loud Simon & Goodman Picture Company 2095 Broadway New York, NY 10023 phone 212 721-0919 fax 212 721-0922 The running time is 92 minutes and it's in color (at least the rough cut that I saw was) It's scheduled to run on American Masters in April (the 10th, I think, check local listings) and will be not be available for purchase until then. At that time, it can be purchased either through Simon & Goodman or through Zeitgeist Films (212 274-1989). They may be taking advance orders, though. Hope this helps! Andrea ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:55:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brandtenc@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bucky Documentary Please take me off of your mail list. I do not wish to receive any more of your material. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:42:30 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tom Dosemagen Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project My dome is a 44 foot diameter half sphere. Sorry don't remember the model number. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:02:19 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Merc Martinelli Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project James, Intro: I am a wanna-be dome owner who is very familiar with the geodesic dome kit market (as opposed to an "expert" who has actually built domes). For what it's worth, I thought I might throw in my $0.02. Oh yes, I have no $$ interest in any of the companies I am about to mention, I am just pointing out examples for you to consider. Note: I have edited your original post down to only the items where I could provide value. My comments: > A2) The basic frame is constructed from 2 x 6s. > The hardware to connect the 2 x 6s does NOT > project beyond the upper and lower profile > of the 2 x 6s, so the use of slightly longer > bolts would allow a nut to be imbedded in > some of the sheets of plywood, hence allowing > a basic "skin" to be bolted to the framework. >From viewing the Natural Spaces marketing video, it appears to me the "bolts" are really press-fit pins that are hammered into place during assembly. If true, you will have to obtain bolts slightly smaller in diameter to make it work like you want. This in turn may effect the strength of the structure. > B) Creating "jig panels" to hold wood, bolts and other > attachment points for everything that is not ferrocement. > This is a tough one, since it is obvious that the dome > should be able to support a beam that runs across the dome, > but could one expect a beam supported by the ferrocement > alone to handle the loads required for a 2nd floor? Not sure of the math, but at least two of the wooden kit manufacturers, Timberline and Geodomes (was Monterey a few years ago?) have developed methods to suspend the second floor from the dome itself. The Timberline concept features a joist connector that links to the "hub" connector, while the Geodomes method is to attach the joists to the "struts". In either case, the implication is that the shell can support the second floor, although it is difficult to determine from the literature if this means "no posts" or just "no posts around the perimeter". I would suspect that a ferrocement dome would also be capable of supporting similar loads? > C2) Suggestions > on floorplans would be welcome, as the sample floorplans > suggested by the Dome-kit vendor (Natural Spaces Domes, > of North Branch MN) show a shocking lack of thought. I find that each vendor has their own philosophy in this department. In general there seem to be two schools of thought: a) "radial designs" that focus on maximum aesthetic impact, or b) "rectilinear designs" that emphasize use of standard construction techniques to minimize costs. To get a good overview, you might want to contact some of the vendors on Joe Moore's (joemoore@cruzio.com) list at web site - http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html. Many of the vendors have color brochures and videos which are full of good ideas. Not clear from your email if you have only the one set of plans that came with the dome, but if so, you may want to get a copy of the plans book from Natural Spaces titled "Domes Come True" for a greater selection of designs specific to your dome. > C3) Suggestions on ANY point are needed here. I cannot take > it upon myself to make unilateral decisions, when the > stakes are high. You might want to take a look at the approach of American Ingenuity, Inc. They sell ferrocement panels (with interior EPS insulation in place, eliminating the "stick to the struts" issue), which are erected over a hub & strut structure while the seams "cure". All in all quite similar to your concept, except that the ferrocement is done in a factory. The suggestion in the literature is then to recycle the wood for interior walls, but your idea of using the wood for the next dome would work as well I suspect. Key Domes and Monolithic Constructors, also on Joe's list, might be good contacts as well. I realize this is getting away from the DIY method, but I thought you might be interested anyway. Good luck. I admire your work. Merc Martinelli martinel@cisco.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:45:08 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Yet another wide-eyed, theoretical speculation :-) This one in BASIC and metric, written for Norman Saunders, PE, whose PC is a Trash-80 :-) Nick 10 'ball park solar closet house design 20 ' 30 ' L ~10 m 40 ' ------------------------------- 50 ' | Rw ~6 | Ta ~2 C 60 ' | | 70 ' | Th ~20 C Rw| 80 ' | | 90 ' W | | 100 ' ~ 10m |Rw | 110 ' | Lc Rw | 120 ' | ------------| 130 ' | Rw Wc | Cc Atm | 140 ' ------------------------Acg----| 150 ' | Tss ~25 C | 160 ' ----------Asg------- 170 ' 180 TA=2'average December ambient temp (C) in Philadelphia 190 SUN=2.9'avg of sun falling on sunspace glazing (kWh/m^2/day) 195 GR=.2'ground reflectivity (fraction) 196 SUN=1000*(SUN+GR*SUN)'increased sun with ground reflection (Wh/m^2/day) 200 DL=6'average number of hours of sun per day 210 TH=20'house temp (C) 220 L=10'house length (m) 230 W=10'house width (m) 240 H=5'house height (m) 250 AW=2*(L*W+L*H+W*H)'outside surface area of house (m^2) 260 RW=6'average R-value of outside surface of house (m^2-deg C/W) 270 DHLC=24*(TH-TA)*AW/RW'daily conductive heat loss of house (Wh) 280 VH=L*W*H'house volume (m^3) 290 ACH =.2'average house air infiltration rate (air changes per hour) 300 DHLA=24*ACH*VH/3*(TH-TA)'daily infiltration heat loss of house (Wh) 310 KWH=100'miserly monthly electric consumption of house (kWh) 320 DHG=KWH*1000/30'daily internal heat gain of house (Wh) 330 DHL=DHLC+DHLA-DHG'daily total heat loss of house (Wh) 340 PRINT INT(DHLC/100+.5)/10, "(kWh), daily conductive heat loss of house" 350 PRINT INT(DHLA/100+.5)/10, "(kWh), daily infiltration heat loss of house" 360 PRINT INT(DHG/100+.5)/10, "(kWh), daily internal heat gain of house" 370 PRINT INT(DHL/100+.5)/10, "(kWh), daily net heat loss of house" 380 SHCFM=1'sunspace to house fan (m^3/s) 390 TSS=TH+DHL/DL/(SHCFM*1200)'average daytime sunspace temperature (C) 400 PRINT INT(TSS*10+.5)/10,"(C), average daytime sunspace temperature" 410 TSG=.92'solar transmission of sunspace glazing (fraction) 420 RSG=.16'R-value of sunspace glazing (m^2-deg C/W) 430 ASG=DHL/(SUN*TSG-DL*(TSS-TA)/RSG)'required sunspace area (m^2) 440 PRINT INT(ASG*10)/10, "(m^2), required sunspace area" 450 ND=24'number of 233 liter drums full of water in solar closet 460 CC=ND*.233'm^3 of water in solar closet 470 ATM=ND*2.32'total surface area of water containers (m^2) 480 RTM=.12'thermal mass surface R-value (m^2-deg C/W) 490 NTUF=ATM/RTM'see 1993 ASHRAE HOF, p 3-4 500 LC=4'closet length (m) 510 WC=2'closet depth (m) 520 HC=2'closet height (m) 530 AC=2*(LC*WC+LC*HC+WC*HC)'total surface area of solar closet (m^2) 540 ACG=2*3'closet air heater glazed area (m^2) 550 ANG=AC-ACG'total unglazed area of solar closet (m^2) 560 SCCFM=1'solar closet air heater fan (m^3/s) 570 'find closet water temp, after a long string of average days, with some sun 580 EIN=SUN*TSG*TSG*ACG'solar energy into air heater (Wh/day) 590 NUM=EIN+DL*TSS*ACG/RSG+(24-DL)*TA*ACG/RW+24*TH*ANG/RW'num. of Tw formula 600 DEN=6*ACG/RSG+18*ACG/RW+24*ANG/RW'denominator of Tw formula 610 TW=NUM/DEN'steady-state closet water temperature 620 EFF=EXP(-NTUF/(SCCFM*1200))'heat exchanger efficacy for closet 630 QC=EIN/DL-(TW-TSS)/RSG'net daytime heatflow into closet (W) 640 DT=QC/(SCCFM*1200)'daytime air temp diff from top to bottom of closet (C) 650 TBOT=TW+DT*EFF/(1-EFF)'temp at bottom of closet (C) 660 TTOP=TBOT+DT'temp at top of closet (C) 670 PRINT INT(10*TBOT+.5)/10,"(C), avg daytime air temp at bottom of closet" 680 PRINT INT(10*TW+.5)/10,"(C), steady-state closet water temperature" 690 PRINT INT(10*TTOP+.5)/10,"(C), avg daytime air temp at top of closet" 700 SCHCFM=1'solar closet-house fan (m^3/s) 710 TWM=TH+DHL/24/(SCHCFM*1200) 720 PRINT INT(10*TWM+.5)/10,"(C), min water temp to heat house on day w/o sun" 730 D=CC*1164*(TW-TWM)/DHL 740 PRINT INT(10*D+.5)/10,"(days), number of sunless days of thermal storage" 28.8 kWh, daily conductive heat loss of house 14.4 kWh, daily infiltration heat loss of house 3.3 kWh, daily internal heat gain of house 39.9 kWh, daily net heat loss of house 25.5 C, average daytime sunspace temperature 17.1 m^2, required sunspace area 73.8 C, avg daytime air temp at bottom of closet 69.1 C, steady-state closet water temperature 76 C, avg daytime air temp at top of closet 21.4 C, min closet water temp to heat house on day w/o sun 7.8 days, number of sunless days of thermal storage ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:54:35 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tom Dosemagen Subject: Re: Opinions Needed for Habitat For Humanity Project The second floor of my dome has two bedrooms,a bathroom and a balconied area that we use as an office. The third floor is built over the hallway of the second floor and extends into the two bedrooms and the bathroom and hangs out over part of the balcony. We also have a cupola on top of the dome for ventilation. The cuploa is a pentagon and each side of the pent has an awning window about four feet long and two feet high. You can stand in the loft and look down to the first floor. If you have any other questions I'd be happy to answer them. Last comment -- My dome was the first dome built with the Natural Spaces connector system and I think it's the best. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:37:22 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SPEECH OUTLINE Thomas Mundell <70465.1261@compuserve.com> sent me the following outline: QUOTE: Subject: Note for Speeches on Bucky As I promised, here are my notes that I use for schools and other gathering of young people to get them interested in Bucky's ideas: 1. Bucky was born in 1895 and died at 87 in 1983. 2. He was on the cover of Time magazine in 1964 (hold up cover). 3. When he bought a Honda Civic, Honda of America took out a two page color ad showing Bucky, his Honda and a dome in several major publications. Honda said it was the greatest endorsement for their car. 4. He held 46 honorable doctor degrees, 25 US patents, 100 awards, 12 recognition days and the longest entry in Who is Who in America. 5. His inventions included domes (over 300,000 worldwide), maps, and dymamion car. 6. Domes encloses the largest volume of interior space with the least amount of surface area. Hurricanes in Florida and Hawaii did not destroy one dome but did destroyed 47,000 homes. Dome in St. Peter in Rome spans 137 feet and weight 10,000 tons (1,350 lbs/sq.foot). Bucky's Dome for Ford spans 93 feet and weight 8 1/2 tons (2 1/2 lbs/sq.ft). 7. Bucky's Synergetics - PI is not an unending decimal, Einstein work could be explained to 5th grader; and X to the second power is not x squared (on paper show how). With books by Bucky and other people, I show photograghs to illustrate his works. Then I give out tooth picks and gum drops to have the students make and compare triangles to squares; and cubes to tretrahedrons. Finally they make a dome. I have worked with children from 5 to 16 years old and they all enjoy the hour. I have been invited to elementary and high schools to give this speech as math supplementary class. Neighborhood functions and swimming pools have also allowed me to give the demonstration. Equipment costs are cheap. UNQUOTE. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:57:25 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Documentaire on B. Fuller Comments: To: Tognon Marco In-Reply-To: <199601292149.WAA21181@ping1.ping.be>; from "Tognon Marco" at Jan 29, 96 1:49 pm Tognon Marco writes: > I to ame interested in the tape mentioned in your article. Which tape in which article? I'm a little confused--so much info passes before my eyes that it sometimes becomes a blurr. There's a list of videotapes at: http://metro.turnpike.net/G/GoatBoy/bucky.html Look under Media/Tapes/Video Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 17:31:23 -0500 Reply-To: HopClover Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HopClover Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe pshe@netcom.com (Pat Shelton) writes: :>2-dimensional flatlanders. That is the >analogy< he is making. A sphere is :>not a shape in a 2-dimensional universe. A sphere is a shape in our : : Hawking points out in his book that a sphere is two dimensional. In which Hawking book and on what page? I imagine that he's talking about the surface of the sphere, not the shape of a sphere itself. Much like Chaisson's flatlander analogy. I've always been under the impression that 3 dimensions are required for a sphere to exist. :>cartesian space. (where by the way it >does< have edges and boundaries) : : Please define the edge of a sphere in cartesian space. I've been careless about using the word "edge" and I stand corrected. I should have been using the word "surface" instead. :>in to an "edge" of the universe. I've still yet to see a definition of :>shape that says something can have shape without having edges. (and yes I :>checked Webster's at your suggestion) : : I don't recall any definition that refers to an edge or outside : of anything. "shape- 1.that quality of a thing which depends on the relative position of all points compsing its outline or external surface; physical or spatial form" -Webster's New World Dictionary, Third College Edition : And your assertion that : you are talking about the real world (whatever that is) and not : mathematics is absurd as the only knowledge we have of the : universe and how it functions is mathematics (not just mathematical). : The other data is just disorganized facts that will some day fit : we're just not clever enough yet. The only time I've used the phrase "real world" is in reaction to when you've used it. What I asserted was that a 3-dimensional shape cannot exist in a 2-dimensional universe and a 10-dimensional shape cannot exist 3-dimensional universe. -Mike ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:09:59 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BF-THINKING OUT LOUD >From various posts I have pieced together the following: From: Andrea Chase TITLE: "Buckminster Fuller: Thinking Out Loud" PRODUCER: Simon & Goodman Picture Company RUN TIME: 92 minutes COLOR: Color FORMATS: Videotape and Film DESCRIPTION: (From Ted Caplan ) "I was just at the Sundance film festival in Utah this weekend and saw a wonderful new documentary about Buckminster Fuller. It focused mostly on the dymaxion car, dymaxion house and the geodesic domes. It included many excerpts from his lectures and writings--some read by Fuller himself, some read by Spalding Gray. The archival footage of his car and house were the most extensive I have seen. The most disappointing part of the film was that they did not even mention synergetics or the global energy grid.... It was directed and produced by Karen Goodman and Kirk Simon and narrated by Sam Fuller." SHOWINGS: Sundance 96 Film Festival (Utah, USA): January 20-21, 1996 PBS'S American Masters series on famous Americans: April 10?, 1996 (Check local listings) AVAILABILITY: (From Andrea Chase ) Simon & Goodman Picture Company (Not until April) 2095 Broadway New York, NY 10023 TEL: 212-721-0919 FAX: 212-721-0922 EMAIL: Zeitgeist Films (May be taking advance orders) __________________ __________________ TEL:212-274-1989 FAX: EMAIL: -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:47:30 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe gentlemen, MUST we see that quote, again, about the hypothetical traveler coming back to lay flowers upon his twin's great-great-great-great-great- grandchild's doorstep?... well, I hope not! anyway, I have to say that the guy only used the analogy, didn't Just say, It's SO, vis-a-vu the sphere, although that's the anaology favored by Bucky & co., and it's the one that's used for the Big Bang interpretation of the redshifting (a-hem .-) ----- "Time is the only dimension." -RBFuller Congecture on "FG#s": Non Compos Mentis!... We return thee to thou couches, Potatoes. ----- On Palmtree BBS: brihut@pro-palmtree.cts.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 05:17:40 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Hermetz Organization: Ohio University, Athens Ohio, USA Subject: Speaking of the American Masters piece... Hey gang--finally back after many months without a lineout... To business: the last couple of newsletters I got from BFI and the stuff I'd been reading here mentioned someone was working on a bio/documentary on Bucky for the PBS "American Masters" series, but no one knew when (or if) it would run--the last rumors where of a birthday showing, but, again, nothing for sure. Did this ever get done? If so has it run or is it to run sometime in the future? Is it the film project being mentioned here that was shown at the Sundance film festival? Curious, Andy Hermetz ad238@seorf.ohiou.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:29:20 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: toward a comprehensive epistemological science classification of pattrens: call large pattren P = significant pattren p = large relation R = significant relation r call the behaviour of large group of variable S (synergetic) = = = = small = = = s extra: i think on the level molecular behaviour the victor E operates on 1 - 4 nanometer. N = 10^-8 cm and the speed of energy travels on the VE circles is going million million trillion or somthing in ! it seems that becuse of this speed and becuse of the constant vibration that a tetravertaxia would replicate itself millions of times per second producing a shape and waves. here is an index: density of close packing .5 cube .6 hexgonal .6 body cube .7 closet packing 12 balls. M.Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:23:56 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Jackson Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C. Subject: Re: Polyethylene films and PVC pipe Nick Pine wrote: > Colorless film should not be used on greenhouses framed with PVC. > Only 602 should be used on PVC structures. Using colorless films on > PVC structures will significantly shorten the film life. > > I think there is some sort of chemical incompatibility going on here. Nick, Thanks for the advice. I gladly accept and avoid someone elses mistakes when given advice. I will call for the catalog. Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:55:08 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brent Hall <75512.1013@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Geodesic Math and How to Use It Visited a local book store last weekend and had them run a search for 'Geodesic Math and How to Use It' for me. According to the search the book is out-of-print but they gave me the following info to check on possibilities of getting a copy. Univ of California Pr Attn: Magie Siara California/Princeton 1445 Lower Ferry Rd Ewing, NJ 08618 Telephone: (800) 822-6657 Fax: (800) 999-1958 Any further info on getting a copy would be greatly appreciated! Brent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:05:35 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: p pattrens few notes from a book. complexity of institution in a socity is a function, other events being equal, of man's conversion of energy into social structure. technology effect is related not only to econmic institution but penetrates all others. families use of dishwasher, presidents in private airplanes, and muozzins call the faitful to prayer through loud speaker are examples. homo erects fought his fellows evident by the universality of sever head wounds in the skull, including those of both sexes. we are born with drives, although some are unco-ordinated , for ex ,like us chimpanzes have to be tought how to copulate. the orignial olympic games made it possible for the independent greeek city states to coexist peacefully, at least during the times when the games were held. current space race- may be viewed as very expensive game. in illiterate society, behaviour toward persons of different ages and the other sex are imprinted often by shock treatment including fasting, vigils, and sensory deprivation. we are only begining to understand the effectivness of these didactic technics. whenever the social function of human being or groups can be reduced to a formula(if not complex) there seems no reason to doubt that mechanistic thinking and mechanical computing devices will find increasing application. any complete description of a cognitive information system must include, or depend on the information possesed by a unit of the system. any change in the information possessed by a unit must in general require a change in the complete discription. what preserved the serentiy of old civilization is a harmoney between the duration of the individual life and the rate of culture change- compare this to present civilization. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:16:04 CET Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL Subject: Re: The Shape of the Universe the shape of a joke you as integral being, due to central progressive coordinated control of the brain, are inside Universe due to lag machanisms, the brain runs backward which calls for the need of a shape this is a big question this is a theoritical question this needs multimirror with few clockes in differnt hollways, watching thier relative time this needs to go to the cromosomic tabe clocks the sh....uned univers, click, click, click click, click, click click, click, click Tagdi