From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 12 19:36:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: from acsu.buffalo.edu (deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.57]) by linux00.LinuxForce.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian -4) with SMTP id g8CNaZL2012756 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:36:35 -0400 Message-Id: <200209122336.g8CNaZL2012756@linux00.LinuxForce.net> Received: (qmail 14247 invoked from network); 12 Sep 2002 23:29:02 -0000 Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 12 Sep 2002 23:29:02 -0000 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:29:02 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8d)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9706" To: Chris Fearnley Content-Length: 492251 Lines: 11644 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:00:04 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Subject: *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the semi-monthly "How To" file about the GEODESIC list. It has info on content and purpose of the list, as well as subscription info, posting instructions, etc. It should prove useful to new subscribers, as well as those who are unfamiliar with LISTSERV operations. This message is being posted on Sun Jun 1 00:00:03 PDT 1997. If you are tired of receiving this message twice per month, and are reading bit.listserv.fnord-l through USENET news, then you can enter this subject into your KILL/SCORE file. If you're reading through email, you can set up a filter to delete the message. Both of these tricks are WELL worth learning how to do, if you don't know already. And isn't it about time to learn something new? Isn't it always? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEODESIC is a forum for the discussion of the ideas and creations relating to the work of R. Buckminster (Bucky) Fuller. Topics range from geodesic math to world hunger; floating cities to autonoumous housing, and little bit of everything in between. On topic discussion and questions are welcome. SPAM and unsolicited promotions are not. (Simple, eh?) ----------------------- To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and in the body of your letter put the line: SUB GEODESIC When you want to post, send mail to GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU ******NOT***** to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU! LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is for subscriptions, administrivia, archive requests, etc. GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is the actual discussion group. Anything sent to GEODESIC will go to all members. (And you don't want to look like a jerk having everyone see your "SUB GEODESIC John Q. Public" command! ;^) ) This list is also linked to USENET in the group bit.listserv.geodesic If you want to receive copies of everything you send to the list, use the command SET GEODESIC REPRO. If you DON'T want copies, use SET GEODESIC NOREPRO. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TO SIGN OFF THE LIST: Simply send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and in the body of your letter put the line: SIGNOFF GEODESIC You should receive a confirmation note in the mail when you have been successfully removed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LIST ARCHIVES: - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Jan. 4, 1997 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=GEODESIC@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu And of course, Listserv itself is keeping archives of the list, dating back to June, 1992. Send a note to listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with this message in the BODY of the note: INDEX GEODESIC You can get help on other Listserv commands by putting the line HELP into the body of the note. (Can be in the same message.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe and unsubscribe.) Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:31:55 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: "I like it" &... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Belt said: >JB........> James, i thought you were an auto buff until now. i am >interested in your groups efforts and would like details, would like to do >one of the trips. Sorry, getting routing clearance to run trains along the northeast corridor would be too complex to even think about. We are going to be lucky to make things work all the way through to Washington DC. >You make quite a jump however from the auto to trains on me >in this post, but that is okay with me. I was just trying to contrast the energy-intensive "solution" proposed, versus a more rational approach. >People like James with their own trains are especially welcome. None of the trains are mine. They are owned by various groups. The diesels would be leased from Norfolk & Western, and the Steam stock would be "liberated" from the museum's pool of "stuff that works". >PS: to James, i must admit that your interest in trains and >supercolliding has me a bit concerned. don't forget which system >you are using and why. Don't laugh - the Supercollider may well become the primary scheduling system. Perhaps even ticket ordering over the net, but I dread loading up Netscape commerce server on a sacrificial host and messing about with the firewall yet again. Nothing is avant-garde, since nothing claims to be "traditional" any more. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:39:11 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Claudio Ardohain Organization: Nodo CA - Buenos Aires - ARGENTINA Subject: WILLIAM S. BECKER Hello, Does anyone in the list know William S. Becker's address? How can I contact him? He worked with B. Fuller and developed a geodesic model of Earth's energy rings - EarthStar grid - similar to my own research on the same field. Thanks Claudio Ardohain ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:31:07 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: WILLIAM S. BECKER Comments: cc: SYNERGETICS _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you tried any of the various people-search services? See http://www.refdesk.com/addsrch.html (Becker doesn't appear in the BF Master Index, by the way.) **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Claudio Ardohain > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: WILLIAM S. BECKER > Date: Sunday, June 01, 1997 9:39 AM > > Hello, > > Does anyone in the list know William S. Becker's address? > How can I contact him? > > He worked with B. Fuller and developed a geodesic model of Earth's > energy rings - EarthStar grid - similar to my own research on the same > field. > > Thanks > Claudio Ardohain > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:40:15 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: "I don't like it" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > > Trains. Plain old trains. Nothing fancy, no multi-billion dollar > superconducting magnet-driven futuristic crapolla, just a plain old > diesel engine and some cars with comfy seats. > Speaking of plain old trains, I invite folks on this list to sneak a preview of a site-in-progress: Design Science Central at http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ -- you'll see trains are 'way cool' according to my aesthetics. Me 'n Fischer, we see eye-to-eye sometimes. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:09:31 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Fw: syn-l: Jaime Snyder response to Dharmraj Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >---------- >> From: John Mac Cosham >> To: synergetics-l@teleport.com >> Subject: syn-l: Jaime Snyder response to Dharmraj >> Date: Wednesday, May 28, 1997 3:38 PM >> >> Jaime replied to my email leter. The response is thus. >> >> Thank you for your note regarding Synergetics. I have had read it >> and passed a copy of it to Lauren Darges to properly respond. She >> has been coordinating the Estate's publications work, and has >> specifically been researching the options for publication of >> Synergetics, via web, CD ROM and print. >> >> I was very glad to get a response. Will let you know what she writes >> to me. >> >> dharmraj >> >> swami dharmraj >> aka John Mac Cosham >> dharmraj@hedgehog.highway1.com.au Heard anything from Lauren yet dharmraj? Lauren is subscribes to Synergetics-L so she might be up to date on all the brainstorming that's been happening on this list. James Fischer, erstwhile Syn-L subscriber, still tracking on Geodesic, was offering to run the text into Acrobat type documents on CDROM awhile back, kinda like backing up to archives given Macmillan's shutting down the presses. Bob Gray, official 'keeper of the errors' has put some trial portions on the web, which search engines still find (as URLs) even though the pilot quickly ended. I'm not sure how many people have scanned the bloody thing -- Chris Rywalt had a goodly chunk as I recall, Bob has all of it we think, and now you're poised to OCR from scratch. I still hold the position that the web is the best way to keep Synergetics alive. As a language, Synergetics requires people to use it in communications if it's to stay alive and relevant. Bucky worked very hard to keep it up to date and ready for action (even put a long fuse on it, knowing that academia would continue its efforts to suppress it -- e.g. see my http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/virus.html). I consider it ridiculous that the text has been sitting around, already scanned, for over a year (right?) and people have been just sitting on their hands, waiting for... what? Is this a case of clinical catatonia I keep asking myself, or paralysis with the onset of panic? Nah, just the age-old 'maqana syndrome' -- all in good time, nevermind the enormous costs we're accruing through inaction. Here's some text from recent Urner memos: As I emphasized to you over the phone, my agenda is to see Synergetics gravitating to a more central position in the curriculum, and this requires making the text accessible in some electronified form. The web presents huge advantages over CDROM, and I buy the logic that it would help galvanize a moribund market for the kind of things the Santa Barbara storefront vends through its Dymaxion Catalog. If making more money for the Estate is what this were about, then the argument might be made that a web-based version is definitely the way to go -- but that's not what this is all about. ------------ So the way I see it, getting Synergetics electronified and into the public domain is an efficient way to propel the BFI into a more central position, curriculum-wise, as we'll be in a position to get Fuller's thinking circulating more freely in cyberspace. This is the same thinking that was behind Sun Microsystems deciding to put Java into the public domain. Java is a masterful piece of work, a really fine computer language, but so are lots of languages that no one ever hears about. Sun realized that in order to position Java as "the next big thing" it would have to go against past conditioned reflexing, which suggested Sun should hold on to Java and make it available only at a high price to licensees. Had Sun taken this suicidal approach, we would not have had Gerald de Jong writing Struck in Java, an important piece of design science software, nor flying to JavaOne in San Francisco to meet with 10,000 other enthusiasts ready to remake the computer world using Java. The success of Sun today, its ability to challenge even Microsoft for its top-ranking position, at least in terms of prestige and net-shaping clout, has everything to do with its clear-eyed vision, its understanding that making Java a free download to anyone with an internet connection is what would turn the computer world on its head, to the lasting benefit of all of us. ----- Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 05:10:52 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Paul Grosso Organization: West Coast Online, Inc. Subject: Dome for sale = sold! I mentioned in this newsgroup a couple of weeks ago that my parent's 16 year old dome house in West Marin, California was on the market. In two weeks (and only one open house) the house has been sold. I'm sure that its setting on an acre of huge redwoods in a beautiful valley played a part in the quick sale. That, and the high demand for Bay Area real estate right now. Mt parents acted as owner/builders 16 years ago and farmed out much of the work to subcontractors while they lived on the property in a mobile home. I helped built a deck or two myself. If you're interested in looking at the web page with both external and internal photos, point your browser at: http://www.wco.com/~ernie/home.html - Paul -------------------------- Paul Grosso paulg@wco.com http://www.wco.com/~paulg/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:34:38 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Trudel Organization: TotalNet Inc. Subject: GIS providers list asked Comments: To: GEOGRAPH@SEGATE.SUNET.SE Hi everybody! I write this notice for asking your help. If someone can give me a list of the differrent GIS providers, devellopers. on the market, I would like that so much. Also, I am interesting in the both softwares, hardwares and others miscellenous in use in the field of geomatic science. Thank you very much for your attention. Patrick Trudel patt@total.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:33:53 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: GIS providers list asked Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Patrick Trudel asked: > I write this notice for asking your help. If someone can give me a list >of the differrent GIS providers, devellopers. on the market, I would like >that so much. > > Also, I am interesting in the both softwares, hardwares and others > miscellenous in use in the field of geomatic science. There are only two GIS platform providers worth a damn on the entire planet - Arc-Info and Microstation. Arc-Info is a very expensive package, but has a following among the (USA) state and federal government users. It is very nice. Microstation is a lower-cost package that does 99.9% of what Arc-Info does, and has a much nicer user interface (very Windoze-like) so that it does not take two weeks of training to get a random person using the system. Microstation also has a "GeoGraphics" add-on package, which is aimed directly at mapping and landbase work. Nothing is avant-garde, since nothing claims to be "traditional" any more. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 04:55:34 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MEMORANDUM June 2nd 1997 FR: Kirby Urner, 4D Solutions TO: sci.astro,sci.philosophy.meta,sci.physics,sci.skeptic, bit.listserv.geodesic RE: Science and the Internet CC: Synergetics-L Since the advent of the internet, and the web in particular -- which grew out of CERN's concern to keep its people updated as to one another's deflections of this or that particle -- we've seen an explosion of information regarding what might be considered 'science' -- might not. That's where the hard sifting part enters and where verifiability becomes especially important. Although we're given a text book model of what constitutes verifiability (laboratory experiment), we all know that many of the special case phenomena which science endeavours to encompass within its framework are too vast or fleeting to permit capture in laboratory setups, which have their obvious (as well as subtle) limitations. The geological timescales associated with life's formation and development aboard this planet is an obvious example of a phenomenon we may work to model, but have not the benefit of running over and over under the watchful whirring of our data recorders. This is not to say laboratory or duplicatable field studies are irrelevant to such theories, only that science by design over reaches, trying to tie together more than it is really in a position to completely substantiate. Because even good science is in the business of pushing the limits, going a little beyond the edge of what we think is known (i.e. 'speculation' is not a dirty word in scientific circles), there's this difficulty, amplified by the internet, in distinguishing what's promising from what's likely bogus and a waste of time. Telling the difference is sometimes not easy, and we often err in both directions, thinking bogus stuff might pan out, or thinking tomorrow's accepted science is doomed to a fringe existence. The historical record is full of stories about people making such errors. My feeling is that science, as an enterprise, would do well to turn inward and scan itself from many angles, in order to better elucidate for those coming from outside what is the status of various research initiatives. I realize this is a difficult undertaking, because although we have peer review systems in place, a lot of compart- mentation among the disciplines has put up walls between the separate peer systems, making it difficult to get assessments from people who have enough distance from the research to not immediately leap into an evangelizing role, as happens when funding is at stake. Scientists seem to prefer a kind of tacit agreement to not call each other on stuff, even if those in discipline A have a lot of suspicion that those in discipline B are full of it, or are at least flirting with bogus notions, drifting off in directions that are less than promising, even from a speculative point of view. My recommendation is that scientists stop trying so hard to defend 'science' (as some unified enterprise) from 'religion' or other perceived threat, such as 'irrational new age belief systems' or whatever, recognizing that those battles have largely been won (at least for the sake of my argument). The real work now is to turn inward and, as scientists, look at the whole of the scientific enterprise, with less regard for walls and barriers aimed at keeping out critical viewers, even if those doing the viewing are themselves highly trained scientists, and are recognized as such. In other words, lets take the gloves off and trade frank opinions, in a public, cross- disciplinary fashion, about what might be promising speculation versus time-wasting dead ends. As just one example, let me throw out 'torsion fields' as a place to direct some of our examinations. My personal sense is that science on opposite sides of what used to be known as the iron curtain has pursued somewhat different tracks. To be more specific, my reading is that in the context a state apparatus insistent upon removing super- naturalism from its curriculum, the sciences were harder pressed to expand their frameworks into phenomenological zones more safely ignored in states more prone to compartmentalize spirituality from science. As a result, the eastern bloc is much more steeply invested in 'psi phenomena', whereas the west has mostly left this aspect of human interest for packaging as entertainment -- hence the X-Files, hugely popular with the younger set, while treating of topics largely marginalized by academia. There's some irony in this outcome, as we begin experiencing greater convergence of east and west. Scientists in the Anglo-American tradition keep finding their presumably sane counterparts in the former Soviet republics and satellite states have gone off the deep end (from their perspective) in many dimensions. Therefore some of the cross- departmental sifting I'm recommending has to do with getting the global conversation back on track within a more globally aware scientific community, a conversation historically disrupted by political concerns over nutty professors and their secret weapons research -- the Dr. Strangelove mentality. As we put the Cold War behind us, we have the opportunity, via the internet especially, to honestly and openly engage in serious and professional discussions, recognizing in advance that a lot of these chats (some informal, some less so) will have a somewhat alien ring to them, given that we're now trying to communicate across greater distances, both geographically and philosophically -- and not forgetting the many language barriers involved. Finally, let me add that in focussing on the European context, the principal theater wherein the Cold War was waged (and where the most dramatic signs of its ending have been staged), I am not dismissing other speculative sciences as irrelevant or of secondary importance. My call is for more clear minded interdisciplinary communication as we take stock of our entire inventory of science- oriented projects and try to get a sense of where we might look forward to some important break- throughs and/or consolidate technological appli- cations around pilot projects that have already matured. My own bias is to focus on the continuing challenges of human suffering, especially where science already has sufficiently addressed the causes, but has yet to implement the necessary remedial programming around the world. For example, my own assessment of our inventory suggests that we have the means at our disposal to eliminate starvation as a cause of death, and could do so rapidly, if only our scientific community were given the option to announce this finding to the general public in terms that were sufficiently persuasive and backed by relevant global data. Upon receiving this intelligence, I think the general public would demand immediate action. That's high on my agenda in any case (a priority shared by many), about which I'm not at all apologetic or secretive, but of course the global conversation I'm encouraging would serve many other complementary agendas as well. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:10:36 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: WILLIAM S. BECKER Comments: To: argeob@ca.wamani.apc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claudio, I found this info through the CCSO Phonebook Gateway University of Illinois at Chicago - ns.uic.edu Name Becker, William S. name: Becker, William S. title: Associate Professor department: Art and Design (M/C 036) address: 106 JH phone: 312-996-3337 netid: William.S.Becker alias: William.S.Becker http://www.uiuc.edu **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: argeob@ca.wamani.apc.org > To: Joe S. Moore > Subject: Re: WILLIAM S. BECKER > Date: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 07:27 AM > > Hello Joe, > Thanks for your concern. > > >Have you tried any of the various people-search services? > > > >See http://www.refdesk.com/addsrch.html > > > > Unfortunately, my server collapsed some weeks ago and I lost my Web > connection. We are under an emergency system. > > >(Becker doesn't appear in the BF Master Index, by the > way.) > > I have this reference from the book THE POWER OF PLACE (1991): > "William S. Becker is chairman of industrial design at the School of > Art and Design at the University of Illinois in Chicago. Since > working with Buckminster Fuller in the 1960s, he has been involved > with the issues of renewable energy, sacred geometry, and the > humanization of technology." > > > Thanks again, > Claudio > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:40:29 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: YOUR SITE Comments: To: Kepler's Books and Magazines Comments: cc: SYNERGETICS _LIST , DOMES _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Esther, Would you please send me a list of the Bucky materials that you have for sale. I would like to forward a copy to the three Lists in the Cc: line above. I'm quite sure there will be at least a few of the subscribers that will be interested. The Geodesic List, which has about 150 subscribers, is also "gatewayed" to the Geodesic Newsgroup which has about 7,000 readers worldwide. Thank you, Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Kepler's Books and Magazines > To: Joe S. Moore > Subject: Re: YOUR SITE > Date: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 03:47 PM > > > > hello, thank you for looking at our WebSite. Hopefully, we shall have a search engine in the not too distant future. A relatively new and very well-organized and efficient site for used high quality used books, rare and whatnot, is at http://www.bibliofind.com. I saw that they had Fuller entries. I personally have and would be willing to sell back issues of the Whole Earth Catalog (early 70's) and a few early 70's books on geodesics, if you are interested. > > esther > > At 02:18 PM 5/29/97 -0700, you wrote: > > > >I wish I could search your site by author, title, or subject. > > > >I'm always looking for books by or about R. Buckminster Fuller. > > > >**************************************** > >* Joe S. Moore > >* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar > >* joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com > >* Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute > >* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > >**************************************** > > > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:36:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: YOUR SITE Comments: To: John Belt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, Thanks, but I'm not looking for any Bucky books right now, but I know others are. I just checked out http://www.bibliofind.com and they're great! At least 75 items found when I searched "Buckminster Fuller" and "geodesic dome". The numbers for the Geodesic List were an educated guess. I haven't sent the "Review" command in while. The estimate for the Geodesic Newsgroup was from the best of my memory. I looked it up a while back at http://sunsite.unc.edu/usenet-i/groups-html/bit.listserv.geodesic.html The books can be ordered online or email & I think some of the used book dealers are in Europe. It's a great service! Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: John Belt > To: Joe S. Moore > Subject: Re: YOUR SITE > Date: Tuesday, June 03, 1997 06:49 PM > > Hello Joe, > I just read your list post on the book search. I go into as many > used book stores as i can find on trips as well as local. If you are > looking for any Fuller or other books by specific title let me know and i > will try to assist you. Have been able to locate a few for people on the > list who do not have access to the bookstores in this country. > > Thanks for the post. I did not realize that many people read the > list. The last time i checked the Geodesic list REVIEW their were 193 > names, that was about four months ago. I may have that file with email > addresses if you want me to forward it to you, let me know. > > Thanks again, john > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 11:10:19 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Menu user Organization: University Library Utrecht Subject: amature home page breaks Beline wall of specialization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hellow to everyone, please check my home page, it is unique in that it mixes epistemologies of different sciences. please dont come to conclusions yet, what you will see there is few days of work on the internet. i call the first part which i hope i finish this week: general thinking, intordution102 to universe. they are meant to be studied together, but i working so that it would be exciting to just hyper chose crossing the different descipline cells. m.tagdi i hope you like at least some of the connections. my location at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/9476 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:48:36 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: syn-l: logo for my new company Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Happy birthday, Gerald. I follow your adventures in Tetraland with fascination & awe! **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Gerald A. de Jong > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: syn-l: logo for my new company > Date: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 07:31 AM > > i have started my own company for my Java training and consulting > activities. today (my birthday, btw) i generated a lovely chrome > tetrahelix ring and decided that it might be a good logo for the new > company. check it out: > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~gdj/bc.jpg > > --- > Gerald de Jong, Rotterdam NL, gdj@xs4all.nl > Elastic Interval Geometry: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gdj > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:37:37 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: PARTICLE MOTION Comments: To: SYNERGETICS _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bucky says that all particles move in a spiral path. If a particle is moving toward a person, it would appear to be moving in a circular path (clockwise or counter clockwise). If a particle were moving past a person (left-to-right or right-to-left), it would appear to be following an up-and-down motion (sine wave). So, a particle may seem to behave as both a particle and a wave, depending on the observer's perspective. See: Cosmography, pages 208-09 Synergetics 1, section 647.03 Synergetics 2, section 1130.24 **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:41:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: Synergetics on the web soon.... Comments: cc: DOMES _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Robert W. Gray > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: syn-l: Synergetics on the web soon.... > Date: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 08:28 AM > > > For all of you that are interested in seeing the Synergetics books > on the web, I'd like to let you know that the project is > alive and well and, in fact, moving very quickly. > > Ed Applewhite and I are busy working on it right now. The Estate > (Allegra and Jaime) have given us the green light to move ahead with > this project. We are working with Lauren Darges (Jaime's assistant) > to finalize some details. > > The way things are going we should have a test version available > by the middle to end of July. > > > Bob Gray > gray@nsrl.rochester.edu > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:01:04 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Clifford J. Nelson" Organization: GTE Intelligent Network Services, GTE INS Subject: Coordinate system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought off and on about Synergetics, Synergetics 2, and Critical Path for about 15-18 years. I considered the cheese tetrahedron and discovered the Synergetics coordinate system in 1994. Bucky discovered them in 1940 according to Critical Path, 1980. Now I can go from perpendicular to Synergetics coordinates and vice-versa, for any number of dimensions. If there are an odd number of coordinates that sum to zero, they can be added, subtracted, multiplied and divided, like complex numbers can. That is impossible as far as the specialist mathematicians are concerned. I call them B numbers, B for Bukcy as in R. Buckminster Fuller. Bucky wrote that you can patent anything you make with his math, but you can't patent the ideas behind them. That is why he never made the Synergetics coordinate system explicit. I'm afraid that I am so much of a specialist in math and Mathematica that I can only guess at the applications of my discoveries. Any comments, suggestions? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:09:59 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Project Renaissance approach to public-private enterprising Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MEMO RE NEW/UPDATED WEB PAGES A working draft of my Project Renaissance approach to public-private enterprising is now on the web at http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/pr.html I am in the process of notifying readers in various newsgroups. Hyperlinks have been updated, both at 'Synergetics on the Web' and 'Design Science Central' to provide easy access to this essay. I have also updated my index.html re 4D Solutions to better reflect my current concept of what I do for a living -- aiming at backward compatibility with what I did before, as I do not wish to turn my back on my current clients -- on the contrary, Project Renaissance is about providing my NGOs with access to even more state-of-the-art solutions, beyond what just I 'flying solo' am able to provide. Any feedback re Project Renaissance (which I've been brainstorming and promulgating since the 80s, while still at the Center for Urban Education) or 4D Solutions or any other aspect of my website(s) is appreciated. I'll be adding new hyperlinks as time permits. If you want me to visit a site with an eye towards my linking to it, I'm game. Feel free to send private email and optionally publish a copy more publically, in a newsgroup or elsewhere. Kirby Urner Principal 4D Solutions ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:04:02 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: amature home page breaks Beline wall of specialization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tagdi -- Re: your website glad to see you getting a web page together. I've only had a few minutes to study the site so far and have the following comments: 1. http://www.unm.edu/~ajbahm/epistemo/appx.html re Subjectivity features a strange 'doubling' of so many words, e.g. [E.g., Jainism Jainism, Aristotle Aristotle.] [E.g., Spiritualism Spiritualism, Idealism Idealism, Yogacara Yogacara.] lots and lots of this goes on -- I can't make sense it. Also, I am left in doubt as to who is the author of this piece: the website is different from yours, and the only attribution appears at the top: Epistemology: Theory of Knowledge, Copyright ) 1995, World Books -- I find this dubious or misleading. 2. The Bucky Fuller poem is interesting, but I'm not sure how it relates at all to #1 above. Also, I am of the school that when quoting a published work, a more complete citation should generally be provided, e.g. in this case, the person in charge of this page should add 'Southern Illinois University Press' and maybe the Library of Congress number: 62-16695 3. http://firetrap.com/firetrap/essays/rational.html seems a highly specialized essay in philosophy (as does #1). Although I'm pleased to see the citation to Ludwig Wittgenstein (a superstar in philosophical circles -- or at least the Vienna one at one time), I have no idea who Daniel Dennett is, nor, I think, will most browsers following your invitation. 4. http://osm7.cs.byu.edu/OSA/generalSpecial.html seems an odd link to throw in... 5. http://poe.acc.virginia.edu/~roa2s/diffraction-xray.html ... you've lost me In sum, I'm at this time unable to make much headway in deciphering your set of offerings. The internal content of the pieces may be clear enough (despite that infernal doubling in #1) but the connections between them escapes comprehension. I feel you owe it to your readers to make these connections more explicit. Note that I feel somewhat obligated to provide this quick review of your site because you apparently posted it using a 'reply function' against my recent memo re 'Science and the Internet' to the same newsgroups. Following my own advice as per that memo, I am providing my frank assessment that your website has so far failed to gel into a coherent presentation. But that's no reason not to continue with your scholarship -- I hope you will renew your efforts to make your thinking clear to 'dense heads' like me. Kirby cofounder of DENSA 'for the recovering Mensaholic' 'because as smart as I may be, I'm still a dummy' PS: Kirby has been in communication with M. Tagdi sporadically for years (not yet met in person though), owing to a friend-in-common, one Nick Consoletti. PPS: Nick's doin' great Tagdi, asks what you're up to when he breezes through town. ======================= Menu user wrote: >hellow to everyone, > >please check my home page, it is unique in that it mixes >epistemologies of different sciences. please dont come >to conclusions yet, what you will see there is few days >of work on the internet. i call the first part which >i hope i finish this week: general thinking, intordution102 >to universe. > >they are meant to be studied together, but i working so that >it would be exciting to just hyper chose crossing the different >descipline cells. > >m.tagdi >i hope you like at least some of the connections. >my location at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/9476 ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 06:33:58 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Coordinate system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Clifford J. Nelson" wrote: >I thought off and on about Synergetics, Synergetics 2, and Critical Path >for about 15-18 years. I considered the cheese tetrahedron and discovered >the Synergetics coordinate system in 1994. Bucky discovered them in 1940 >according to Critical Path, 1980. Now I can go from perpendicular to >Synergetics coordinates and vice-versa, for any number of dimensions. If >there are an odd number of coordinates that sum to zero, they can be added, >subtracted, multiplied and divided, like complex numbers can. That is >impossible as far as the specialist mathematicians are concerned. I call >them B numbers, B for Bukcy as in R. Buckminster Fuller. Bucky wrote that >you can patent anything you make with his math, but you can't patent the >ideas behind them. That is why he never made the Synergetics coordinate >system explicit. I'm afraid that I am so much of a specialist in math and >Mathematica that I can only guess at the applications of my discoveries. >Any comments, suggestions? > > Howdy Clifford -- Fuller's work intersects with a number of projects aimed at providing mathematical artifacts (aka 'gizmos') in addition to, and in some applications as alternatives for, the well-known XYZ system -- Fuller's influence relating to his focussing on the tetrahedron as definitive of primitive conceptual dimensionality (4Dness). For example, David Chako has done a lot to formalize a 4-tuple schema based on the 4 rays emanating from the center of a tetrahedron through its four vertices. Based on what I've learned from Mr. Chako, I've implemented some simple methods on a computer in order to provide some VRML output. In the meantime, he and Peter Kitchin have continued refining the material with an eye towards possibly making a contribution in the field of quantum mechanics, or at least towards suggesting an alternative mathematical treatment of spacetime. I make no pretense of understanding this more advanced level work of theirs -- I do not. Also, Josef Hasslberger based in Rome, Italy has been working in this area. I've tried to make contact via the internet but have yet to receive any communications back from him. You might want to join our discussion list, Synergetics-L, to give us more insight into what you've developed. We could all afford to learn more from one another, that much is clear. For example, I would maybe take issue with your statement that Fuller "never made the Synergetics coordinate system explicit". My reading of Synergetics is that his 'operational mathematics' is closely tied to an origin and surrounding concentric hierarchy, but that he purposely eschews using the codes our culture considers 'tight' -- in contrast to the supposedly 'nebulous' humanities languages that are considered incapable of conveying precise definitions. Fuller's purpose was to challenge this deeply engrained prejudice by sticking to a more narratively formatted grammar, scannable by those trained in the humanities, yet starkly geometric at heart and deeply informed with a sense of energy vectors hovering around some unfathomable, yet intuitively accessible, zero-point equilibrium. Kirby Principal 4D Solutions Relevant web pages: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/terms.html#4d http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/Synergetics-L/synl.html ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 08:56:40 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gordon Rumson Subject: Re: amature home page breaks Beline wall of specialization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have no idea who Daniel Dennett > is, nor, I think, will most browsers following > your invitation. Greetings, Daniel Dennett is one of the gurus of 'current' (ie late 70-80s, a tad out of date now...) thought on mental processes. Some would even say he is famous, though from your statement, perhaps not. I'm not a big fan of his work having given up on him when I read his attempt to show that pain doesn't exist... Best wishes, Gordon Rumson Canadian Pianist and Composer Founder and Proprietor of Sikesdi Press Music Publishers of the "New and Little Known" Music by Sorabji, Johansen, Mellers, Flynn, ApIvor and others. Please visit our Web Page at: http://www.cadvision.com/Home_Pages/accounts/liszt/SikesdiPressWebpage.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:03:47 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "C. Larry Stahl" Organization: Oregon Public Networking Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In article <3393a3be.232950@news.teleport.com>, pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote: > MEMORANDUM > June 2nd 1997 > > FR: Kirby Urner, 4D Solutions > TO: sci.astro,sci.philosophy.meta,sci.physics,sci.skeptic, > bit.listserv.geodesic > RE: Science and the Internet > CC: Synergetics-L > > Since the advent of the internet, and the web in > particular -- which grew out of CERN's concern to keep > its people updated as to one another's deflections > of this or that particle -- we've seen an explosion > of information regarding what might be considered > 'science' -- might not. That's where the hard sifting > part enters and where verifiability becomes especially > important. > > Although we're given a text book model of what > constitutes verifiability (laboratory experiment), > we all know that many of the special case phenomena > which science endeavours to encompass within its > framework are too vast or fleeting to permit > capture in laboratory setups, which have their > obvious (as well as subtle) limitations. > > The geological timescales associated with life's > formation and development aboard this planet is an > obvious example of a phenomenon we may work to model, > but have not the benefit of running over and over > under the watchful whirring of our data recorders. > This is not to say laboratory or duplicatable field > studies are irrelevant to such theories, only that > science by design over reaches, trying to tie together > more than it is really in a position to completely > substantiate. > > Because even good science is in the business of > pushing the limits, going a little beyond the edge > of what we think is known (i.e. 'speculation' is > not a dirty word in scientific circles), there's > this difficulty, amplified by the internet, in > distinguishing what's promising from what's likely > bogus and a waste of time. Telling the difference > is sometimes not easy, and we often err in both > directions, thinking bogus stuff might pan out, > or thinking tomorrow's accepted science is doomed > to a fringe existence. The historical record is > full of stories about people making such errors. > > My feeling is that science, as an enterprise, > would do well to turn inward and scan itself from > many angles, in order to better elucidate for > those coming from outside what is the status of > various research initiatives. I realize this is > a difficult undertaking, because although we have > peer review systems in place, a lot of compart- > mentation among the disciplines has put up walls > between the separate peer systems, making it > difficult to get assessments from people who > have enough distance from the research to not > immediately leap into an evangelizing role, as > happens when funding is at stake. Scientists > seem to prefer a kind of tacit agreement to not > call each other on stuff, even if those in > discipline A have a lot of suspicion that those > in discipline B are full of it, or are at least > flirting with bogus notions, drifting off in > directions that are less than promising, even > from a speculative point of view. > > My recommendation is that scientists stop trying > so hard to defend 'science' (as some unified > enterprise) from 'religion' or other perceived > threat, such as 'irrational new age belief systems' > or whatever, recognizing that those battles have > largely been won (at least for the sake of my > argument). The real work now is to turn inward > and, as scientists, look at the whole of the > scientific enterprise, with less regard for walls > and barriers aimed at keeping out critical viewers, > even if those doing the viewing are themselves > highly trained scientists, and are recognized as > such. In other words, lets take the gloves off > and trade frank opinions, in a public, cross- > disciplinary fashion, about what might be promising > speculation versus time-wasting dead ends. As > just one example, let me throw out 'torsion fields' > as a place to direct some of our examinations. > > My personal sense is that science on opposite sides > of what used to be known as the iron curtain has > pursued somewhat different tracks. To be more > specific, my reading is that in the context a > state apparatus insistent upon removing super- > naturalism from its curriculum, the sciences were > harder pressed to expand their frameworks into > phenomenological zones more safely ignored in > states more prone to compartmentalize spirituality > from science. As a result, the eastern bloc is > much more steeply invested in 'psi phenomena', > whereas the west has mostly left this aspect of > human interest for packaging as entertainment > -- hence the X-Files, hugely popular with the > younger set, while treating of topics largely > marginalized by academia. > > There's some irony in this outcome, as we begin > experiencing greater convergence of east and west. > Scientists in the Anglo-American tradition keep > finding their presumably sane counterparts in > the former Soviet republics and satellite states > have gone off the deep end (from their perspective) > in many dimensions. Therefore some of the cross- > departmental sifting I'm recommending has to do > with getting the global conversation back on track > within a more globally aware scientific community, > a conversation historically disrupted by political > concerns over nutty professors and their secret > weapons research -- the Dr. Strangelove mentality. > > As we put the Cold War behind us, we have the > opportunity, via the internet especially, to > honestly and openly engage in serious and > professional discussions, recognizing in advance > that a lot of these chats (some informal, some > less so) will have a somewhat alien ring to them, > given that we're now trying to communicate across > greater distances, both geographically and > philosophically -- and not forgetting the many > language barriers involved. > > Finally, let me add that in focussing on the > European context, the principal theater wherein > the Cold War was waged (and where the most dramatic > signs of its ending have been staged), I am not > dismissing other speculative sciences as irrelevant > or of secondary importance. My call is for more > clear minded interdisciplinary communication as > we take stock of our entire inventory of science- > oriented projects and try to get a sense of where > we might look forward to some important break- > throughs and/or consolidate technological appli- > cations around pilot projects that have already > matured. > > My own bias is to focus on the continuing challenges > of human suffering, especially where science already > has sufficiently addressed the causes, but has yet to > implement the necessary remedial programming around > the world. For example, my own assessment of our > inventory suggests that we have the means at our > disposal to eliminate starvation as a cause of death, > and could do so rapidly, if only our scientific > community were given the option to announce this > finding to the general public in terms that were > sufficiently persuasive and backed by relevant global > data. Upon receiving this intelligence, I think the > general public would demand immediate action. That's > high on my agenda in any case (a priority shared by > many), about which I'm not at all apologetic or > secretive, but of course the global conversation > I'm encouraging would serve many other complementary > agendas as well. > > Kirby > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU > Email: pdx4d@teleport.com > Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ I appreciate hearing a call for social action. It seems to me that we endlessly talk and dispute--too often forgetting that for whatever cause we have, it is we human beings ourselves that must choose to "implement the necessary remedial programming around the world." In a measure, we all are scientists (or we all have scientists as our representatives). Now I suggest that we also all are, or should be, individually responsible philosophers who have sociological concerns. "To eliminate starvation as a cause of death" must, of course, begin with a certain philosophical position -- based on a certain principle -- to become truly effective. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:04:56 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Sacred Geometry Comments: To: Vincent Beall MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vincent, I've long held the theory that since Nature's Geometry (Synergetics) underlies everything in the universe, people would instinctively be attracted to certain key shapes of that geometry--even if they didn't understand WHY a shape were important. Now, as the understanding of Synergetics spreads, we are beginning to KNOW why certain shapes have meaning. I love the beautiful color graphics and pics. I will add your URL to my Bucky Links, and I am sending a copy of this reply to the Geodesic List. Thank you for bringing your web site to my attention. Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Vincent Beall > To: joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM > Subject: Sacred Geometry > Date: Thursday, June 05, 1997 05:57 PM > > Please examine my web site at the URL below. > > Thanks > > Vincent Beall > -- > > vincent@dmv.com > > http://home.dmv.com/~vincent > .- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:50:27 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Clifford J. Nelson" Organization: GTE Intelligent Network Services, GTE INS Subject: Re: Coordinate system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kirby, (* For example, I would maybe take issue with your statement that Fuller "never made the Synergetics coordinate system explicit". My reading of Synergetics is that his 'operational mathematics' is closely tied to an origin and surrounding concentric hierarchy, but that he purposely eschews using the codes our culture considers 'tight' -- in contrast to the supposedly 'nebulous' humanities languages that are considered incapable of conveying precise definitions. *) Bucky made the number of relationships between the number of vertexes n of a simplex explicit when he gave the plug and chug formula n(n-1)/2. That is what I mean by explicit. I made the Synergetics coordinate system explicit in 1994 for four dimensions and improved it in 1997 to any number of dimensions to go from perpendicular to 60 degree Synergetics and vice-versa. I am certain that Bucky could have published the same thing that I found. The point of my previous post was that he did not and maybe I should not. I can not patent anything that I have discovered. (* For example, David Chako has done a lot to formalize a 4-tuple schema based on the 4 rays emanating from the center of a tetrahedron through its four vertices. *) Tell David Chako to consider the cheese tetrahedron. The 4-tuple should be the perpendicular movement of the four sides of the tetrahedron, not the vertices. Cliff Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:12:42 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: Re: Cuboctahedra sphere models MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Kirby Urner > To: Duncan > Cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: syn-l: Re: Cuboctahedra sphere models > Date: Thursday, June 05, 1997 09:17 PM > > At 10:41 PM 6/5/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Kirby, > > > >I would like to find a product in which I could build cuboctahedra (and > >twisted cuboctahedra) and then face bond them to each other at either the > >triangle face or square face. would you have any suggestions. > > > >Bob Duncan > >e-mail Address duncan@cin.net > > > > There was a plastic tinker-toy like product called Rhombogon or > something -- I don't think its around anymore. Zometools might > do the job. Not clear from your email if you're picturing > wireframe skeletons or something more block-like. > > Zometools: http://www.zometool.com/ > > You might also want to check out Roger's Connection: > > http://www.rogersconnection.com/ > > I've posted your request for assistance to Synergetics-L > in case others have resources to suggest. > > Yours, > Kirby > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 15:45:29 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: Sacred Geometry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vincent, Visited your web page - good stuff! http://home.dmv.com/~vincent Regards John Rich ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:57:12 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit lstahl@efn.org (C. Larry Stahl) wrote: > >"To eliminate starvation as a cause of death" must, of course, begin with >a certain philosophical position -- based on a certain principle -- to >become truly effective. I think it also begins with a scientific position: the we have the means to accomplish this result, have for some time. That makes the current agony neither an 'act of nature' nor an 'act of God or gods', meaning willful inaction is starting to supply historians with new ways of looking back on our time e.g.: When blimp photographs are taken of giant stadia packed full of rock-concert or football fans, we get an idea of what 100,000 people look like. We all think of Hiroshima as the worst single killing of humans by humans. That was about a 75,000-capacity-coliseum-full. Each day of each year, year after year, a 75,000-capacity-stadium-full of around-the-world humans perish from starvation or its side effects, despite an annual average 5-percent world food- production overage of the amount of food adequate for the total world's population. This daily kill of innocents dwarfs the awful Auschwitz killing. 'Grunch of Giants' by R. Buckminster Fuller 1983 St. Martin's Press (RBF awarded the Medal of Freedom by USA prez RR around this same time) Which is where some of the philosophical positioning enters in. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 19:50:50 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Sacred Geometry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John William Rich wrote: >Vincent, >Visited your web page - good stuff! > >http://home.dmv.com/~vincent > >Regards >John Rich > I agree, an interesting site. Personally, I wouldn't confuse this brand of sacred geometry with Synergetics however. Synergetics is not coming out of the Middle Eastern wisdom literature much, though I'm sure feeds into it in some ways. Kirby Synergetics on the Web Design Science Central 4D Solutions ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 06:46:28 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby Urner wrote: > I think it also begins with a scientific position: the we have the > means to accomplish this result, have for some time. That makes > the current agony neither an 'act of nature' nor an 'act of God Larry Stahl wrote: > >"To eliminate starvation as a cause of death" must, of course, begin with > >a certain philosophical position -- based on a certain principle -- to > >become truly effective. > Starvation on this planet is an act of man. As Kirby says we have the means to solve the problem. It is politics, politicians, political philosophy that gets in the way - these nasty p-words are all euphemisms for greed. "I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off my stack..."(Pink Floyd) I don't think feeding the starving begins with anything other than a feeling - compassion, empathy, sympathy, love - take your pick - the starving would not mind if you were motivated by guilt - but without the feeling no-ones going to do anything. It is easy to indulge your self in philosophy and science with a full stomach. However, if we really want to do something about starvation, after the feeling comes a willingness to sacrifice. Then the real issue becomes, are we fat cat westerners prepared to take a cut in our standard of living so that the starving get fed. It's not just a matter of handing out food - long term it must be about allowing free trade on the planet so people can feed themselves by being able to sell what they've got, even if it is only their sweat and toil. And us allowing them to compete in our markets - even if it costs us some jobs locally. But while we scramble for more, while we aspire to be the richest man in the cemetery, we don't even see whose back we are trampling over and nor do we care. I'll bet more money is spent on the issue of obesity in the US (and it's related problems) than is spent on aid to the starving - isn't that insane???? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 03:46:53 EST Reply-To: VIP@postal.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Authenticated sender is From: VIP@NEEDMOREHITS.NET Subject: Search Engine Secrets Comments: To: VIP@morehits.com Dear Friend and Fellow Entrepreneur, DISCOVER The Most Powerful & PROVEN Strategies that Really Work To Place You At The Top of the Search Engines! If you have a web page, or site, that can't be found at the top of the search engines, then this will be the most important information you will ever read. You are about to Discover the most Powerful Strategies used only by the very best on the Web... strategies so Powerful that once used will place your Web Page or site at the TOP 10 - 20 search engine listings! 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Please direct all inquiries to: evisions@answerme.com If you feel you've been included in this bulletin by mistake, then you can remov e yourself by sending an e-mail to: evisions@answerme.com and typing "remove" in the subject. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:45:00 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: Sacred Geometry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby Urner wrote: > > John William Rich wrote: > > >Vincent, > >Visited your web page - good stuff! > > > >http://home.dmv.com/~vincent > > I agree, an interesting site. Personally, I wouldn't > confuse this brand of sacred geometry with Synergetics > however. Hi Kirby I must agree with your comment - the site is good stuff because it is interesting and stimulates thought about this subject. As the website says; "Sacred Geometry is the use of geometric forms as an aid in constructing and memorising a theosophical system". Synergetics is explorations in the geometry of thinking - or the use of geometric forms as an aid in constructing and memorising a philosophical system?!?! Regards John Rich P.S. Your Synergetics Home page http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html is one of the best. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:02:04 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Menu user Organization: University Library Utrecht Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi Kirby, Humans dont care, and they are also totally obsorbed in their little affairs and if they are going to make money when they get a degree. the west is totaly obsessed with irrelvant culture staff. that leaves just few who care. or is it the complexity, the govermental buracracy, so called spirtuality, and business small and big. also fragmented action doesnt help, the net full of people discussing different things and not getting into action. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 22:17:14 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Menu user Organization: University Library Utrecht Subject: Re: amature home page, an attempt to break the Berline wall of specialization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi again, i wrote a long reply and then i couldnt send it, somting rong in netscpe. and now i cant get the text in this email to respond to your letter. my page is nonlinear, how to think in different areas. my reason for putting it in this form may have a chance to be useful. i have to wait and see. if you try to read few things, you will note that you can think in overlaping way between two or three fields. that is not possible when you read a specialized text. but you have to understand that i am only at the beginning of the page. i hope it will be successful. so far i must had 60 people visiting it, i dont know what that mean. i say more later, sorry for the delay. criticism is wellecomed. tagdi http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/9476 to me most scientest are traditionalist, full of authority. by the way i am surprised by Nick situation, hard to believe that he is doing good. is this a joke. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 23:42:00 GMT Reply-To: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: meron@CARS3.UCHICAGO.EDU Organization: CARS, U. of Chicago, Chicago IL 60637 Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In article <33985B04.167@xtra.co.nz>, John William Rich writes: >However, if we really want to do something about starvation, after the >feeling comes a willingness to sacrifice. Then the real issue becomes, >are we fat cat westerners prepared to take a cut in our standard of >living so that the starving get fed. That's based on the ages old fallacious belief that economy is a zero sum game and whenever somebody's standard of living is improving, it is due to the exploitation of somebody else. We've ample evidence that it ain't so. There was an economic system based on this belief. Assuming that by taking from the fat cats it'll improve the lot of the people at large it did indeed manage to create equality of sorts, by reducing most everybody to poverty. Need I name it? It's not just a matter of handing >out food - long term it must be about allowing free trade on the planet >so people can feed themselves by being able to sell what they've got, >even if it is only their sweat and toil. And us allowing them to compete >in our markets - even if it costs us some jobs locally. Guess what, there is the trade nowadys is more free than it was for a very long time and "they" are free to compete in our markets. Some nations which used to be third world countries are prosperous nowadays (Singapore, Taiwan, Hong-Kong, to name but a few) and their prosperity is based on global trade. Of course they also have stable governments which support business, not kleptocracies, which may have something to do with their success. >I'll bet more money is spent on the issue of obesity in the US (and it's >related problems) than is spent on aid to the starving - isn't that >insane???? > I happened to read just few days ago (in one of the articles commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Marshall Plan) that the total amount of aid which the countries in Sub-Saharan Africa received from the affluent countries since 1970 is (after correcting for inflation) more than 4 times as large as the Marshall Plan. Somehow, it didn't do much good. Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:49:17 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit meron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote: > > In article <33985B04.167@xtra.co.nz>, John William Rich writes: > > >However, if we really want to do something about starvation, after the > >feeling comes a willingness to sacrifice. Then the real issue becomes, > >are we fat cat westerners prepared to take a cut in our standard of > >living so that the starving get fed. > > That's based on the ages old fallacious belief that economy is a zero > sum game and whenever somebody's standard of living is improving, it > is due to the exploitation of somebody else. We've ample evidence > that it ain't so. No it's not based on any such thing - you may make it mean that but that doesn't make it so. If an impoverished starving 3rd world citizen's standard of living improved, it won't be due to the exploitation of someone else, say in the USA, but it may be due to that American's willingness to take a cut in his standard. Citizen's of the USA use about twelve times the energy of a citizen of India. Use 10% less energy by way of food, electricity, petrol etc. and make it available to say India and you've increased their food supply, their capacity to transport it and increased their industrial capability and thus their ability to trade on an open world market. Sounds more like Adams-Smith (with shades of Jesus) than Karl Marx (with shades of Lenin) to me. So why should citizen's of the USA take a 10% cut? In my view it wouldn't be that hard, in fact would the US really feel it? A bit of carpooling, more walking, less food - hey we Kiwis are big eaters but we are apalled at the size of a main on a US restaurant menu - and if obesity is so desirable and beautiful why isn't everyone on "Melrose Place" or "ER" as fat as the average person in the street. And why? So the US can show the world they they really do believe in capitalism and are prepared to put it into practice rather than the protectionist controlled regime which passes for capitalism at the moment. People who believe that Man is Good, trust that Man will do good with his wealth, lean towards capitalism (Abraham Lincoln was one of these) - people who believe Man is Bad, believe that only the State can be good and fair and equal and thus lean towards Socialism (or as it has been practiced, State Capitalism)(Karl Marx was one of these). > There was an economic system based on this belief. Assuming that by > taking from the fat cats it'll improve the lot of the people at large > it did indeed manage to create equality of sorts, by reducing most > everybody to poverty. Need I name it? Taking from the fat cats is your assumption, not mine. My philosophy has the fat cats volunteering a cut for the greater good. This could be done politically by allowing the US Government to increase taxation - or perhaps by directing a slice of the pie overseas. The system you are referring to may well have done what you suggest - I believe it was more the arms race that broke them. And what system is equal - the US? there would be a lot of Blacks, Hispanics, North American natives, women, Vets, non-Wasps, communists, etc who might have cause for complaint. > > It's not just a matter of handing > >out food - long term it must be about allowing free trade on the planet > >so people can feed themselves by being able to sell what they've got, > >even if it is only their sweat and toil. And us allowing them to compete > >in our markets - even if it costs us some jobs locally. > > Guess what, there is the trade nowadys is more free than it was for a > very long time and "they" are free to compete in our markets. Some > nations which used to be third world countries are prosperous nowadays > (Singapore, Taiwan, Hong-Kong, to name but a few) and their prosperity > is based on global trade. Of course they also have stable governments > which support business, not kleptocracies, which may have something to > do with their success. So you agree with my point - free trade is what it must be about. My country, New Zealand, in 1964, agreed to send troops to Viet Nam in return for improved access to the US market for our beef. We've always been on a quota. It was practically wiped out when we banned US nuclear armed and nuclear powered ships from our ports and declared ourselves to be a Nuclear Free Zone. Freedom of trade, freedom of thought, freedom of philosophy - whose principles are these? > > >I'll bet more money is spent on the issue of obesity in the US (and it's > >related problems) than is spent on aid to the starving - isn't that > >insane???? > > > I happened to read just few days ago (in one of the articles > commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Marshall Plan) that the > total amount of aid which the countries in Sub-Saharan Africa received > from the affluent countries since 1970 is (after correcting for > inflation) more than 4 times as large as the Marshall Plan. Somehow, > it didn't do much good. Shouldn't you be asking why, and how can you make it better, and who's to account for the obvious misuse of your resources rather than using this as a justification to turn your back and let the status quo remain. Regards, John Rich ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 09:59:11 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ross Keatinge Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In-Reply-To: <33992362.62325134@news.teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 14:57:12 GMT, Kirby Urner wrote: > When blimp photographs are taken of giant stadia packed > full of rock-concert or football fans, we get an idea of > what 100,000 people look like. We all think of Hiroshima > as the worst single killing of humans by humans. That was > about a 75,000-capacity-coliseum-full. Each day of each > year, year after year, a 75,000-capacity-stadium-full of > around-the-world humans perish from starvation or its side > effects, I wonder sometimes how we could overcome the limitations of our senses in that they are only much good at detecting changes and very poor at seeing constants. Its easy to look at a dark back yard or somewhere and notice nothing until it moves. An analogy from electronics is that our senses are AC coupled. I suspect it would be difficult to function at all if this wasn't the case but it has the bizarre result that an airplane crash killing 400 people is world headline news even though in the general scheme of things it is insignificant to the number of people who staved that day. Except, of course if you or someone you were close to was on the plane. Just some idle thoughts but I wonder what the reaction would be to a TV station running "regular" starvation as their lead on the evening news one night. I can imagine the early evening promos: "75,000 PEOPLE DIE TODAY AS.... " we have exclusive details at six. At the end of the day, of course, it can only come down to us, you and me, where everything human made really begins. Where should *we* begin if we are aiming at the fundamental problems? I guess that is the big question that has no simple answer. A quote I heard somewhere: If half the world would live more simply, the rest would simply live. Cheers all Ross -- Ross Keatinge rossk@ihug.co.nz Auckland, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 04:32:33 GMT Reply-To: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: meron@CARS3.UCHICAGO.EDU Organization: CARS, U. of Chicago, Chicago IL 60637 Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In article <3398B00D.1BC9@xtra.co.nz>, John William Rich writes: >meron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote: >> >> In article <33985B04.167@xtra.co.nz>, John William Rich writes: >> >> >However, if we really want to do something about starvation, after the >> >feeling comes a willingness to sacrifice. Then the real issue becomes, >> >are we fat cat westerners prepared to take a cut in our standard of >> >living so that the starving get fed. >> >> That's based on the ages old fallacious belief that economy is a zero >> sum game and whenever somebody's standard of living is improving, it >> is due to the exploitation of somebody else. We've ample evidence >> that it ain't so. > >No it's not based on any such thing - you may make it mean that but that >doesn't make it so. If an impoverished starving 3rd world citizen's >standard of living improved, it won't be due to the exploitation of >someone else, say in the USA, but it may be due to that American's >willingness to take a cut in his standard. Citizen's of the USA use >about twelve times the energy of a citizen of India. Use 10% less energy >by way of food, electricity, petrol etc. and make it available to say >India and you've increased their food supply, their capacity to >transport it and increased their industrial capability and thus their >ability to trade on an open world market. I'm afraid this doesn't follow. The economy in India is not problem free but it is not choking on lack of energy. Check some data. >So why should citizen's of the USA take a 10% cut? In my view it >wouldn't be that hard, in fact would the US really feel it? The US won't, others will. In spite of your denials above, you still seem to believe that the problems of other countries stem from the US grabbing to much in way of resources. Well, no, not really. On the other hand, slow down the US economy a bit and who you think is going to suffer the most. Exactly those third world countries whom you would like to help and who'll find the best market for their products disappearing. And yes, I really mean the best since the US market is way more open than those of the other affluent countries. >Taking from the fat cats is your assumption, not mine. My philosophy has >the fat cats volunteering a cut for the greater good. The result will be still the same. Everybody will lose. You really should learn some economy. >This could be done politically by allowing the US Government to >increase taxation - or perhaps by directing a slice of the pie >overseas. The system you are >referring to may well have done what >you suggest - I believe it was more the arms race that broke them. YEah, but why didn't it break the US. Because the US economy was functioning while the Soveit one wasn't. >And what system is equal - the US? there >would be a lot of Blacks, Hispanics, North American natives, women, >Vets, non-Wasps, communists, etc who might have cause for complaint. By the time we add all these categories together, we've some 80% of the US population. So, you seem to believe that some 20% enjoy the fat of the land, ruling over the remaining 80%. Is this really your opinion or are you just repeating stuff without thinking about it. >>...- long term it must be about allowing free trade on the planet >> >so people can feed themselves by being able to sell what they've got, >> >even if it is only their sweat and toil. And us allowing them to compete >> >in our markets - even if it costs us some jobs locally. >> >> Guess what, there is the trade nowadys is more free than it was for a >> very long time and "they" are free to compete in our markets. Some >> nations which used to be third world countries are prosperous nowadays >> (Singapore, Taiwan, Hong-Kong, to name but a few) and their prosperity >> is based on global trade. Of course they also have stable governments >> which support business, not kleptocracies, which may have something to >> do with their success. >So you agree with my point - free trade is what it must be about. As free as possible, given the geopolitical situation. Free trade is very important, but not to the point where all else must be ignored. >My country, New Zealand, in 1964, agreed to send troops to Viet Nam in >return for improved access to the US market for our beef. If that was the whole reason for your country's participation, i.e. if your government considers its soldiers to be just merchandise, to be bartered away for trade privileges, then you've my sympathy. >We've always >been on a quota. It was practically wiped out when we banned US nuclear >armed and nuclear powered ships from our ports and declared ourselves to >be a Nuclear Free Zone. So, you took a stand and you paid some price for it. This often happens when you take a stand. Freedom of trade, freedom of thought, freedom of >philosophy - whose principles are these? They're the principles of many different people, don't think somebody owns a copyright here. >> >I'll bet more money is spent on the issue of obesity in the US (and it's >> >related problems) than is spent on aid to the starving - isn't that >> >insane???? >> > >> I happened to read just few days ago (in one of the articles >> commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Marshall Plan) that the >> total amount of aid which the countries in Sub-Saharan Africa received >> from the affluent countries since 1970 is (after correcting for >> inflation) more than 4 times as large as the Marshall Plan. Somehow, >> it didn't do much good. >Shouldn't you be asking why, and how can you make it better, and who's >to account for the obvious misuse of your resources rather than using >this as a justification to turn your back and let the status quo remain. Oh, I can answer those questions: 1) Why? Because most of these nations are run by cleptocracies who don't even have the sense any successful parasite should've, i.e. that you shouldn't kill your host. C'mon government corruption existed since the dawn of history but even a Chicago politician knows the slaughtering a milking cow is not a good idea. BTW, this answers not just the "why?" but also "who is accountable?" 2) How can I make it better? Frankly, short of taking over these countries and running them for a generation or two (something that's called "imperialism" and is rather unpopular nowadays) there ain't much I can do. And if I would do just this (not that either I or they have much reason to like the idea) the cure may turn out to be worth than the disease. Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 13:21:23 -0000 Reply-To: garym@sos.on.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Sacred Geometry In-Reply-To: (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu) Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.95) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>>>> "ku" == Kirby Urner writes: ku> I agree, an interesting site. Personally, I wouldn't confuse ku> this brand of sacred geometry with Synergetics however. ku> Synergetics is not coming out of the Middle Eastern wisdom ku> literature much, though I'm sure feeds into it in some ways. I'm not so sure -- its like the alchemist/kabbalist tetragrammaton math vs Ohm's Law: One would expect two people looking at the same coffee mug would describe a similar object. Looking back at a prior posting on the nature of science, while falsification is somewhat important, a large body of 'scientific knowledge' is also based on "Independent Corroboration" ;) I doubt there is a causal relationship between Bucky and the ancients (unless Jack Scarfatti is right*, and I'm not certain he is not). The connection is more like Bucky's opus on Scheherazade --- a "curious co-incidence" * Jack has a Very Interesting webpage which would be easier to ignore were it not so airtight-clever and from such a distinguished mind. As an intro, Jack learned physics at the age of 7 from interplanetary travellers. Jack convincingly argues that the future causes the past. ... actually, the more I think about it, if Jack is right and the ancients were influenced by Fuller, it might explain a lot of Vedic, Arabic, Taoist and Greek intuition ;) Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN --------------------------------------- Don't oppose forces, use them ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 14:21:56 -0000 Reply-To: garym@sos.on.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Science and the Future Comments: cc: j.w.rich@xtra.co.nz In-Reply-To: (j.w.rich@xtra.co.nz) Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.95) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>>>> "jw" == j w rich writes: jw> Kirby Urner wrote: >> I think it also begins with a scientific position: the we have >> the means to accomplish this result, have for some time. That >> makes the current agony neither an 'act of nature' nor an 'act >> of God jw> Larry Stahl wrote: >> >"To eliminate starvation as a cause of death" must, of course, >> begin with >a certain philosophical position -- based on a >> certain principle -- to >become truly effective. >> jw> Starvation on this planet is an act of man. As Kirby says we jw> have the means to solve the problem. It is politics, jw> politicians, political philosophy that gets in the way - these jw> nasty p-words are all euphemisms for greed. "I'm all right jw> Jack, keep your hands off my stack..."(Pink Floyd) Greed is a nasty euphemism of Caring. Given Malthus as a "true fact", if one cares for one's family, the Best Thing to do is to hoard. In my business, I meet many people with mansions and expensive appetites, but not one expounds accumulating wealth for its own end. Every last one simply wants to get "the best for my family", a noble human aim. I expect there _are_ truly twisted greedy-guts types, and suspect we will find them in all walks of life, but my direct experience puts them in a severe minority. jw> I don't think feeding the starving begins with anything other than a jw> feeling - compassion, empathy, sympathy, love - take your pick I pick greed, arrogance and bigotry! ... HE SAID WHAT???? If every emotion is, as medicine finds, simply a perception of a brain state, and, also supported by medicine, each state can be seen in _either_ a positive or negative image (Japanese Psychiatrist superstar Morita Shoma wrote "It is amazing how different the world looks when we have changed") then we can leverage all our "negative" states to positive ends. This Internet we now enjoy is the direct product of the greed, arrogance and bigotry of the Cold War. jw> ... However, if we really want to do something jw> about starvation, after the feeling comes a willingness to jw> sacrifice. Then the real issue becomes, are we fat cat jw> westerners prepared to take a cut in our standard of living so jw> that the starving get fed. We need to become moderate and discretionary, but I don't agree these actions will have as much an impact on the 75,000 who will die. There is plenty for all. In many parts of Asia and Africa, the problem is tyranny, not shortages or transport. We in the west are like the Coca-Cola factory where new employees were told to drink as much free Coke as they like. They pig out, but by the fifth day, they never want to see another coke. We in the west, who were similarly starved by Evil Empires until only recently, are now on our first Thursday at Coca-Cola ;) jw> isn't that insane???? Insanity is not seeing any choices. In the west (and especially semi-neutral countries like Canada and Sweden), we enjoy rapport with the Evil Empires who are lording over the coffers in the Ethiopias of the world. What we need to do is to 'flip' these people (in the Chomsky sense of how we went from enemies of the Soviets to compadres overnight) We need to have them see how feeding and housing their people will gain them more wealth and power, we need to exploit their fear and loathing. How do we do this? Induction. First, we must change ourselves. How do we do this? Reflection. First, we must change how we see our 'enemies', to (perish the thought) see how the actions of these Lords and Tyrrants give to us in ways they could choose to avoid; these are the gifts they give us. Second, we must learn to see how we cause those same tyrrants trouble, inconvenience and unneccessary expense. I expect we will have no trouble with the converse cases, of accounting for what we give the tyrrants and the trouble they cause us, but _knowing_ the first two cases must (by symmetry rules) exist, and using how geometry to identify missing components, we can suspect the existance of the gifts received by us, and trouble we have caused. This develops our whole-system (holistic) vision; Nostradamus was fond of paraphrasing, "He who is now called Profit was once called Seer" "When Evil is branded, it thinks of a weapon" (I Ching) is an excellent motive for this approach. As we see the situation, we may find "there but for the Grace of God", that the choices of the "insane" are the same we ourselves might make under their circumstance. We may begin to see how their ecology functions, model it in our own terms and then work on seemless solutions, on win-win scenarios, expanding ours and their perceptions of "family" and "profit". "Our civilization is going to ruin, The young spend all day in the pub and have no respect for their elders" ("I seem to be a Verb": quote from pyramid graffiti) What drew me to Bucky was his optimism, his trusting everyone was "telling it as they see it" honestly, and that we all have largely altruistic aims. This jibes well with my studies of Morita's psychology where this principle is applied theraputically on a personal scale --- anorexics, psychopaths and even tyrrants often believe they are "doing it for the benefit of all concerned". Someone once asked how Bucky remained so positive. They were told this was the only way he could walk into so many over-built, over-mortgaged buildings and not go mad. I think that is a good model to live by ;) Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN --------------------------------------- Don't oppose forces, use them ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 12:49:01 NDT Reply-To: hugh@young.wn.planet.gen.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Hugh Young Subject: "Virtual reality" (was Re: Science and the Internet In <33992362.62325134@news.teleport.com> pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote: >Kirby > >---------------------------------------------------- >Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU >Email: pdx4d@teleport.com >Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ No. There is only one reality and it is real. People have different PERCEPTIONS of it, all incomplete and faulty to a greater or lesser extent (mainly greater). (If there weren't a real reality, what could we agree about?) ("Virtual reality" is an oxymoron in the strict sense. It should just be called virtuality. What's worse is the use of "3D" to mean no more than "perspective in motion". I suppose when real 3D is up to speed we'll have to call it "stereoscop/y/ic". Of course even "real 3D" is not really real 3D in the optical sense because it's, um, virtual.) -- Hugh Young, Pukerua Bay, Nuclear-free Aotearoa / NEW ZEALAND ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:50:55 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit meron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote: > In spite of your denials above, you still > seem to believe that the problems of other countries stem from the US > grabbing to much in way of resources. Well, no, not really. I don't believe that, thank you for acknowledging it with your "well no not really". I don't believe the US is grabbing too much - I just don't think they are prepared to have real faith in the capitalist system - and it appears to me as an outsider looking in that there's a lot of fat people in the US - is it because they consume too much? I remember a cartoon in a Playboy Magazine in the 60's (which I only ever read for the interview and the cartoons) which showed a Texan in a big car saying " Goddam it -I'm wealthy - I can afford to waste the Earth's resources". > On the > other hand, slow down the US economy a bit and who you think is going > to suffer the most. Exactly those third world countries whom you > would like to help and who'll find the best market for their products > disappearing. And yes, I really mean the best since the US market is > way more open than those of the other affluent countries. Do I conclude that the only way to feed the starving of the planet is for the US to keep consuming, and if that consumption increases then starvation will decline? If the economy slows down because the Americans have each made a personal commitment to do more with less (a Buckminster Fuller principle) and that is where the effect is absorbed it won't affect free trading partners at all. In fact some goods and services will become cheaper (thus more with less) if supplied from a Third World economy - at what internal cost to the US - increased unemployment - solve it with a shorter working week and the development of an increased leisure industry - people will have more time. > By the time we add all these categories together, we've some 80% of > the US population. So, you seem to believe that some 20% enjoy the > fat of the land, ruling over the remaining 80%. Is this really your > opinion or are you just repeating stuff without thinking about it. Right first time - it's the old 20/80 rule, as much a Universal Truth as Murphy's Law, Parkinson's Law and Sod's Law. > >My country, New Zealand, in 1964, agreed to send troops to Viet Nam in > >return for improved access to the US market for our beef. > If that was the whole reason for your country's participation, i.e. if > your government considers its soldiers to be just merchandise, to be > bartered away for trade privileges, then you've my sympathy. Of course that wasn't the whole reason. NZ is the only country to have always stood with the US and the UK. We would have been there anyway - most Kiwis believed in the Yellow Peril and Red under the Bed propanganda, and our fathers who had done their bit in the 1939-1945 World War expected my generation to do the same and stop the spread of the evil by making a stand in Viet Nam. We were already in Malaysia doing the same thing - I don't recall the US being there with us - and we do have a justifiably proud war tradition. But when we were reluctant to be involved because of our Malaysian commitment, and the US wanted the moral support of it's long time ally, NZ, we were told that our continued access for our beef was contigent upon our moral and physical support. At the time we were vulnerable - the Poms had just ditched us in favour of the EEC and our privileged trading status had gone - consider that irony, we lost a greater percentage of our population, in the 1914-1919 and 1939-1945 World Wars, than any other country - freeing France/Europe, standing by Mother England - we were probably a Third World Nation. > >We've always > >been on a quota. It was practically wiped out when we banned US nuclear > >armed and nuclear powered ships from our ports and declared ourselves to > >be a Nuclear Free Zone. > > So, you took a stand and you paid some price for it. This often > happens when you take a stand. Tell us about it - name a country which understands this better than we do. Regards, John Rich ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:00:44 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No point bellyaching about who has to make the 'big sacrifice': USA networks are well position to supply services, to assist in leading the charge against starvation, and regard it as their honor and privilege to so participate, in tight formation with affiliates (includes Russians, Chinese... -- not necessarily talking your favorite brand of religio-politics here, whatever that might be). The only 'cut' the 'fat cats' need to take is to once again recognize the brute fact that 'having a ton of money in the bank', in and of itself, is not a criterion when it comes to assessing how much respect and authority a player receives. But that was never the American dream in any case (the 'land of opportunity' has always stood for so much more), so I don't think I'm saying anything new here. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 20:50:35 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Thilo Pfennig Organization: Projekt Leben, Art und Vielfalt Subject: this thread Re: Science and the Internet John William Rich wrote: Please take bit.listserv.geodesic out of your Newsgroups-header. Thank you! -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 20:17:22 GMT Reply-To: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: meron@CARS3.UCHICAGO.EDU Organization: CARS, U. of Chicago, Chicago IL 60637 Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In article <339920EF.4076@xtra.co.nz>, John William Rich writes: >meron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote: > >> In spite of your denials above, you still >> seem to believe that the problems of other countries stem from the US >> grabbing to much in way of resources. Well, no, not really. >I don't believe that, thank you for acknowledging it with your "well no >not really". I don't believe the US is grabbing too much - I just don't >think they are prepared to have real faith in the capitalist system - Not a perfect faith, but more than most. >and it appears to me as an outsider looking in that there's a lot of fat >people in the US - is it because they consume too much? Rather because they move too little. >> On the >> other hand, slow down the US economy a bit and who you think is going >> to suffer the most. Exactly those third world countries whom you >> would like to help and who'll find the best market for their products >> disappearing. And yes, I really mean the best since the US market is >> way more open than those of the other affluent countries. >Do I conclude that the only way to feed the starving of the planet is >for the US to keep consuming, and if that consumption increases then >starvation will decline? Kinda simplistic. Reality is not single dimensional model. But you can be sure that any significant decrease of consumption in the US will have very unpleasant consequences for the global economy as a whole. >If the economy slows down because the Americans have each made a >personal commitment to do more with less (a Buckminster Fuller >principle) and that is where the effect is absorbed it won't >affect free trading partners at all. Other than the naivette involved in "the Americans have each made a >personal commitment to do more with less " (if we all just make a personal commitment to always obey the law, we'll not need police and courts), the above is just bad economy. Anything I consume is the fruit of somebodies labor. When I consume less, somebody has less work. Decrease over consumption by, say, 10% and you've the Great Depression all over again. > In fact some goods and services will become cheaper (thus more with >less) if supplied from a Third World economy To your information, whatever is consumed in the US and can be supplied from a third world economy, is supplied from a Third World Economy. It is clear from what you write that your knowledge of the US is quite lacking. A short visit to any depertment store in the US should suffice to convince you that what you ask for is already there. > >> By the time we add all these categories together, we've some 80% of >> the US population. So, you seem to believe that some 20% enjoy the >> fat of the land, ruling over the remaining 80%. Is this really your >> opinion or are you just repeating stuff without thinking about it. >Right first time - it's the old 20/80 rule, as much a Universal Truth as >Murphy's Law, Parkinson's Law and Sod's Law. > OK, you convinced me. You do repeat stuff without thinking what it means. >> >We've always >> >been on a quota. It was practically wiped out when we banned US nuclear >> >armed and nuclear powered ships from our ports and declared ourselves to >> >be a Nuclear Free Zone. >> >> So, you took a stand and you paid some price for it. This often >> happens when you take a stand. > >Tell us about it - name a country which understands this better than we >do. > I can think of some examples. But, that's besides the point. Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 22:16:27 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: prkosuth Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Comments: To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz In-Reply-To: <33985B04.167@xtra.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > Kirby Urner wrote: > > I think it also begins with a scientific position: the we have the > > means to accomplish this result, have for some time. That makes > > the current agony neither an 'act of nature' nor an 'act of God > > Larry Stahl wrote: > > >"To eliminate starvation as a cause of death" must, of course, begin with > > >a certain philosophical position -- based on a certain principle -- to > > >become truly effective. > > > > Starvation on this planet is an act of man. As Kirby says we have the >> It is easy to indulge your self in philosophy and science with a full > stomach. > I'll bet more money is spent on the issue of obesity in the US (and it's > related problems) than is spent on aid to the starving - isn't that > insane???? I think that Ralph Nader in the last elecction (he was the Green Party Candidate) said something that we in the US more money is spent on cat and dog food in a year than on ALL of the basicc entitlment programs (foodstamps, free breakfasts and lunches, Headstart, etc.) I had a copy of his acceptance speech via a mailinglist but no longer have it so the specifics maybe off on my part but the direction is obvious. Like Fuller has said: if there is something that we really want to do, cost is not an object. We will find the money. Like all of us on this list shell out a fair chunk of money to be on the internet and have decent computers: this cost far exceeds the annual income of a whole host of the worlds people. Its about priorities and what we value. My daughter had her dance recital today -- very nice, very cool but at a cost of about 40 bucks a month -- but she enjoys so as a family we place value upon it. That $400 is 10 times more that I gave to Amnesty International -- is dance more important than AI ? On the face it seems so. Making choices in Carbondale. Take care, Paul prkosuth@mychoice.net OPINIONS ARE MY OWN Brehm Preparatory School Carbondale IL ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 23:56:16 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Place Organization: epix Internet Services Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby Urner wrote: > > No point bellyaching about who has to make the 'big sacrifice': > USA networks are well position to supply services, to assist in > leading the charge against starvation, and regard it as their > honor and privilege to so participate, in tight formation with > affiliates (includes Russians, Chinese... -- not necessarily > talking your favorite brand of religio-politics here, whatever > that might be). > > The only 'cut' the 'fat cats' need to take is to once again > recognize the brute fact that 'having a ton of money in the > bank', in and of itself, is not a criterion when it comes to > assessing how much respect and authority a player receives. > But that was never the American dream in any case (the 'land > of opportunity' has always stood for so much more), so I don't > think I'm saying anything new here. > > Kirby > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU > Email: pdx4d@teleport.com > Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ Quote(yours) - "All realities are virtual" Does this mean virtually nothing is real ? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 05:08:57 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: "Virtual reality" (was Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hugh@young.wn.planet.gen.nz (Hugh Young) wrote: >In <33992362.62325134@news.teleport.com> pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) >wrote: > >>Kirby >> >>---------------------------------------------------- >>Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU >>Email: pdx4d@teleport.com >>Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ > >No. There is only one reality and it is real. People have different >PERCEPTIONS of it, all incomplete and faulty to a greater or lesser extent >(mainly greater). (If there weren't a real reality, what could we agree >about?) > It's a take-off on a bumper sticker: Reality is special case. >("Virtual reality" is an oxymoron in the strict sense. It should just be >called virtuality. What's worse is the use of "3D" to mean no more than >"perspective in motion". I suppose when real 3D is up to speed we'll have to >call it "stereoscop/y/ic". Of course even "real 3D" is not really real 3D in >the optical sense because it's, um, virtual.) > Hard to follow, but I agree that "3D" is problematic -- when applied to reality that is. I don't believe in nondimensional points as 'reality' either -- some might call them 'virtually real' though. >Hugh Young, Pukerua Bay, Nuclear-free Aotearoa / NEW ZEALAND > Thanks for writing. My sig nets me lots of replies of this kind, which suggests reality is perceived a lot the same way by folks (but you already knew that...) Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 11:22:55 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: this thread Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thilo Pfennig wrote: > > John William Rich wrote: > > Please take bit.listserv.geodesic out of your Newsgroups-header. Thank > you! Why? Is not discussion of issues like starvation, energy efficiency, more for less, global problems to do with Geodesics, Bucky, Synergy etc. Or do we just discuss geodesic domes here? Hey, I've tried on a few occasions to get an intelligent debate raging on the advantages of an oblate four frequency super-ellipsoidal icosahedron (with root E correction, variable shape factor indices and modified for truncation plane) BUT there were no takers. I've talked about double sided triangles and ease of erection etc. - everyone yawned - I even shared my personal plan of a 1,000sq.m SkyBreak Dome - I was told by one writer to get over my fantasy and lets get back to reality - 3/8 and 5/8 spheroidal icosahedra. My friend, I will remove bit.listserv.geodesic from my headers the day that geodesic domes are no longer about people - and while people starve, pig-out, breathe, fart, fuck, come, go, move around or just breathe heavily, I will regard bit.listserv.geodesic a legitimate forum to discuss these issues. Thank you so much for your valued contribution to this group, Yours faithfully J.W.Rich Auckland New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 03:41:30 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Jim Carr Organization: Supercomputer Computations Research Institute Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Kirby Urner wrote: } } I think it also begins with a scientific position: the we have the } means to accomplish this result, have for some time. That makes } the current agony neither an 'act of nature' nor an 'act of God } or gods', meaning willful inaction is starting to supply historians } with new ways of looking back on our time ... One trusts that historians will look at the data. J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz writes: > >Starvation on this planet is an act of man. As Kirby says we have the >means to solve the problem. That is correct. We have the food and the distribution system, up to a point. There are cases where the distribution system has put the food in the country where people are starving, for example. >It is politics, politicians, political >philosophy that gets in the way ... At which point one should identify the politicians and philosophies responsible for halting the distribution of that food. >However, if we really want to do something about starvation, after the >feeling comes a willingness to sacrifice. Then the real issue becomes, >are we fat cat westerners prepared to take a cut in our standard of >living so that the starving get fed. The answer is, "yes". There is a 50-year history of this. >It's not just a matter of handing >out food - long term it must be about allowing free trade on the planet >so people can feed themselves by being able to sell what they've got, >even if it is only their sweat and toil. And us allowing them to compete >in our markets - even if it costs us some jobs locally. It is sometimes difficult to have free trade with people who are not free, since the results of trade may not reach those who did the work. And, apart from such important details as progress on GATT regarding absurd tariffs in some countries (or cases like ones where their own goods cost more than when export to the US), a key problem is that the leaders of some countries have moved away from self-sufficiency in food to push 'cash crops'. This is the opposite of the pattern one might deduce from the history of the US and its agricultural policies. >But while we scramble for more, while we aspire to be the richest man in >the cemetery, we don't even see whose back we are trampling over and nor >do we care. I do not buy products from certain companies for that reason. That means less income for those people in the third world who work for that company, but perhaps another company will do what Ford did at one time in the not-so-distant past. >I'll bet more money is spent on the issue of obesity in the US (and it's >related problems) than is spent on aid to the starving - isn't that >insane???? Not as insane as people starving despite food being available for them from the US, but not allowed to go to them by their own government. -- James A. Carr | Commercial e-mail is _NOT_ http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/ | desired to this or any address Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst. | that resolves to my account Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306 | for any reason at any time. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:51:18 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Science and the Internet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, What are the latest Bucky happenings at Brehm Prep? Any chance of having your own web pages? Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: prkosuth > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Science and the Internet > Date: Saturday, June 07, 1997 10:16 PM > ---------- (snip) > > Making choices in Carbondale. > Take care, > > Paul > prkosuth@mychoice.net > OPINIONS ARE MY OWN > Brehm Preparatory School > Carbondale IL > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 09:12:29 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: BFI STRUCTURE Comments: To: DOMES _LIST , SYNERGETICS _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been thinking about this since1983, and I finally have decided to say something publicly: If membership in the BFI meant that I could nominate someone for the Board of Directors and could vote for a nominee to the Board, then I would consider rejoining. Sincerely, Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:43:24 -0000 Reply-To: garym@sos.on.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: "Virtual reality" (was Re: Science and the Interne Comments: cc: hugh@young.wn.planet.gen.nz In-Reply-To: (hugh@young.wn.planet.gen.nz) Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.95) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>>>> "h" == hugh writes: >> Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- h> No. There is only one reality and it is real. Hypothetically. With the notion of 'virtual' as in 'virtual particle' and Wheeler's one-particle cosmology, however, suggest even this Real-ity may be a Virtual-ity. Hypothetically. h> ... (If there weren't a h> real reality, what could we agree about?) Precisely. Remember to wave at all particles: It's the polite and proper thing to do. h> ... What's worse is the use of h> "3D" to mean no more than "perspective in motion". I suppose h> when real 3D is up to speed we'll have to call it h> "stereoscop/y/ic". Stereoscopic (see http://vered.rose.utoronto.ca/ to see my background in this) is not 3D, but double-monocular. Holograms are 2 1/2 D and there is a hypothetical projection method using particle decay to create true 3D. For computer graphics, any rendering system using the 4D matrix methods of co-ordinate computation is colloqually called 3D. Which brings me to something I wrestled with for years: Has anyone been able to create a seemlessly (from abstraction to pixel) Synergetics rendering system? I eventually concluded it was not possible to render full-blown domes without the use of transcendental numbers (ie pi) although I did get tremendous speed gains using fractions instead of floating point. The reason Nature could compute soap bubbles in microseconds was because it _blows_ them (progressive distortions of a surface region) or _grows_ them (an orange first appears as a seed), which means it creates 'graphics' with heavy use of the 4th dimension (motion/time). My approach of simply wanting to illuminate portions of a octet matrix (all space filling grid) and then project the shadow to the screen pixels was perhaps too rooted in traditional XYZ thinking to get very far. Instead, I began to suspect that multifrequency polyhedra would need to be 'rendered' in the octet co-ordinates by modelling a spark which would propagate a surface out to the desired size. As it happened, I got a job-leads-to-jobhunting, wife-leads-to-ex ;), kids-just-lead-on ... and never got back to it. h> ... Nuclear-free Aotearoa / NEW ZEALAND Gee, that's too bad --- we have a spare reactor you can have! (this is not a real offer, just sarcastic jealousy ;) Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN --------------------------------------- Don't oppose forces, use them ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 13:53:27 -0000 Reply-To: garym@sos.on.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Virtually Realities In-Reply-To: (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu) Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.95) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>>>> "rp" == Robert Place writes: rp> Quote(yours) - "All realities are virtual" Does this mean rp> virtually nothing is real ? More likely "real nothing is still virtual": "Last year's poverty was not real poverty but this year's poverty is poverty indeed" (a popular zen koan) If you are not If you are not a REALITY a MYTH Whose MYTH Whose REALITY are you? are you? (sun ra) Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN --------------------------------------- Don't oppose forces, use them ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:41:12 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harmon Seaver Organization: Maddog Press Subject: Re: "Virtual reality" (was Re: Science and the Internet Comments: To: hugh@young.wn.planet.gen.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hugh Young wrote: > No. There is only one reality and it is real. People have different > PERCEPTIONS of it, all incomplete and faulty to a greater or lesser extent > (mainly greater). (If there weren't a real reality, what could we Reality is an illusion -- it's what you make it. -- Harmon Seaver hseaver@zebra.net http://www.zebra.net/~hseaver ======================================================================= All is impermanent, but this too shall pass away, and the way of the Samurai is death -- so speak your mind now, or forever hold your peace. ======================================================================= Copyright, Harmon F. Seaver, 1997. License to distribute this post is available to Microsoft for US$1,000 per instance, or local equivalent. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 22:55:55 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward Green Organization: panix Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Jim Carr wrote: Oh boy, inflammatory political issues on sci.physics! My absolute _fave_ (wink at Keith Ramsay here). I mean, I never develop any emotional energy over physics (wink at myself here). Just remember, I didn't start this one... >Kirby Urner wrote: >} >} I think it also begins with a scientific position: the we have the >} means to accomplish this result, have for some time. That makes >} the current agony neither an 'act of nature' nor an 'act of God >} or gods', meaning willful inaction is starting to supply historians >} with new ways of looking back on our time ... > > One trusts that historians will look at the data. > >J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz writes: >> >>Starvation on this planet is an act of man. As Kirby says we have the >>means to solve the problem. > > That is correct. We have the food and the distribution system, up > to a point. There are cases where the distribution system has put > the food in the country where people are starving, for example. I agree much economic non-optimality is an act of man as opposed to what they used to call an act of God; the Great Depression is a prime example: What war, famine, plague, sudden exhaustion of natural resources, etc, etc, plunged the United States (and I apologize to the rest of the world, I know even less about the world history of that period than US history, which ain't much...) into semi-economic ruin in in 1929? Answer: Absolutely nothing external. People, resources, skills, all there. Production, employment; not there. Why? Systemic failure. This suggests a third category is need beyond 'Act of God' and 'Act of Man'. There may be villains for the Great Depression, and some people are always eager to find them, but the process was hardly the result of the diabolical machinations of SMIRSH. It was more biological; an unplanned derangement of the system. In psychology we used to call minor examples of this 'neuroses'. Stalin's purges were an act of Man, but the Great Depression was an act of Men (well, I'm trying... _you_ think of a catchier phrase if you don't like it). I think Starvation falls much closer to the unplanned act of men category, then to the villainous act of man. And yes, I'm sure we can identify individual villains; social situations are seldom all or nothing. But let's not be blind to the systemic elements in the search for moral theater. >>It is politics, politicians, political >>philosophy that gets in the way ... > > At which point one should identify the politicians and philosophies > responsible for halting the distribution of that food. Nor should one forget Malthus. >>However, if we really want to do something about starvation, after the >>feeling comes a willingness to sacrifice. Then the real issue becomes, >>are we fat cat westerners prepared to take a cut in our standard of >>living so that the starving get fed. > > The answer is, "yes". There is a 50-year history of this. I have mixed feeling about this. Suppose tribe A controls 50% of the forest resources, and tribe B the other 50% (non-thinking stereotyped liberal warning -- I am about to increase your blood pressure by taboo applications of logic, proceed at your own risk). Tribe A for whatever reason (no, Virginia, I didn't say 'moral good') does not increase in population. Birth's equal deaths, pretty much (and did I say these were renewable resources?), and a good standard of living can be maintained. Tribe B breeds like paramecia. Well, you _know_ what is going to happen: Tribe B is soon straining at the borders of its half of the forest, looking hungrily at Tribe A's relatively unpopulated paradise, and _demand their share_. And they are right to do so. No individual child born to his intimate family of twenty sibling in the teaming squalid megalopolis of B incurred this fate through original sin; no child in A incurred his privileged status through original virtue. And you know what the A-meisters say: Hang on, we started out with the same cards, we just played ours with a little more foresight. You are telling us that we _cannot_ exercise foresight, because no matter what we do, you will simply outbreed us, and our share will be no bigger than yours, as individuals. It seems to me they have a pretty solid stance also. I'm not an ethicist, but it seems to me at some point into the passage from child to adult the B-people may begin to acquire some personal responsibility for the results. They did not ask to be born, but when they bring another generation of miserable starving children into the world in the same environment there actions, while understandable, are hardly full of saintly altruism; it is self-interest, the same as yours or mine. They made a choice. Stereotypical liberals go into a frenzy at this point. Look, buds, I am _not_ a stereotypical conservative. I'd like to see a 100% inheritance tax, and publicly funded abortion -- so there! I've got something for everybody. But it seems to me plausible that while we are asking the bad old first world to give up some prosperity to help the less fortunate, they may with equal justice demand an immediate reduction in birth rate -- no if's, and's or but's, and no damn excuses. There earth is probably _already_ grossly overpopulated. Why 6 billion? Who decided on this figure? Nobody, of course; it is an act of men. But I reject any morality that requires the more fortunate to temporarily alleviate suffering, at the same time accelerating the slide toward the inevitable mass poverty. I doubt that even with 100 years of new technology the planet could support 6 billion people in a way we would consider a decent Western middle class standard today -- though just possibly if we eliminated that great anti-social mass polluter and mobile phalus, the automobile. But that's another rant. >>It's not just a matter of handing >>out food - long term it must be about allowing free trade on the planet >>so people can feed themselves by being able to sell what they've got, >>even if it is only their sweat and toil. And us allowing them to compete >>in our markets - even if it costs us some jobs locally. > > It is sometimes difficult to have free trade with people who are > not free, since the results of trade may not reach those who did > the work. And, apart from such important details as progress on > GATT regarding absurd tariffs in some countries (or cases like > ones where their own goods cost more than when export to the US), > a key problem is that the leaders of some countries have moved > away from self-sufficiency in food to push 'cash crops'. This > is the opposite of the pattern one might deduce from the history > of the US and its agricultural policies. > >>But while we scramble for more, while we aspire to be the richest man in >>the cemetery, we don't even see whose back we are trampling over and nor >>do we care. > > I do not buy products from certain companies for that reason. That > means less income for those people in the third world who work for > that company, but perhaps another company will do what Ford did > at one time in the not-so-distant past. I am incapable of such measure in the face of such sentiments; though maybe you even say they are partially justified. Well... sure. But I can't stomach the 'blame America first' hypocrisy. It's childish. At least we _try_ to stabilize our corner of the planet. Isn't that a start? Should we do something different? These horrible exploitation issues are for consumer garage we would be better off without -- sneakers and jeans. What about the massive pollution and over-population in the developing world? _That's_ what is going to destroy the quality of future civilization. Let's keep a sense of perspective: Sneakers and jeans are peanuts. I'm not ever sure the children making these things are worse off than they would have been without the US manufacturer -- yes, they work under conditions we would not tolerate for in this country -- no, I'm not advocating a double standard or saying they are less than human -- but we can't create heaven by waving a wand or a law. If the manufacturers pull out will the children be _better_ off? Personally, I'm going to hold on to my tiny little scrap of economic advantage until you pry it from my cold dead fingers _until and unless_ I seem to be giving up something towards a solution, and not so that some poor schmoe on the other side of the planet can have a micron's worth more until over-breeding again reduces the excess to zero, and we all starve together. >>I'll bet more money is spent on the issue of obesity in the US (and it's >>related problems) than is spent on aid to the starving - isn't that >>insane???? > > Not as insane as people starving despite food being available > for them from the US, but not allowed to go to them by their > own government. Remember bad old Roman Imperial Hegemony? Do you think sometimes that armed overthrow of dictatorial governments my be morally justified, even a moral imperative? Self determination? Bah. Hypocrisy. Bosnia. That is self determination. It is hypocritical to stand back and allow people their 'self-determined' right to be victims of local strong men. Just admit you are not about to put your cojones on the line to help them; let's not have any 'self-determination' hypocrisy. Hypocrisy and stupidity right up and down the line. Don't worry... be happy. And pass me the Bud Malt Liquor (new! freshness dated! product attribute!) I'm evil... right? No... just disgusted. Right now I'm more disgusted with stereotypical liberals than stereotypical conservatives; but that's probably just because they are the dominant species here in NYC. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 20:30:09 CDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "J. Michael Rowland" Organization: Management 21 Inc. Subject: Re: Refried Domes Thanks, Dennis Johnson, for forwarding me Lloyd Kahn's "Refried Domes" story of his personal disenchantment. I've read down to technical drawback #7, and already I'm inspired to provide counterpoint. I could have a lot of satirical fun with this piece, but, unfortunately, I don't have enough time. I can see why Lloyd's domes leak. > The floor plan is nearly circular. Anyway you slice it up, you come out > with wedge-shaped corners somewhere. In all the rectangular houses I've ever lived in, the floor plan is some variation on a rectangle... and no matter how we've sliced it, we've never been able to slice it like we've wanted it, and we've always ended up with rectangle-shaped corners, everywhere. > And if you make one room larger, the floor space has to come out of > some other room. You can't just make the house larger. I think I could tack a dormer or a box onto a dome and do just as bad a job of it as the standard tack-on to a rectangular house. In fact ... I KNOW I could!!! > There are places you can't put windows in downstairs, > because you can't pierce the lower parts of the dome > without weakening it. Let's see... I'm looking around the walls of the house I'm currently living in (not a dome) and I can't find a place where I CAN put a window without weakening it.... I learned a lot from reading Lloyd's cautionary tale. It all boils down to: "Poor planning makes for an unenjoyable experience and a poor product." I knew that already. He did say one thing (over and over) that I still find interesting: > It goes without saying that your local lumber yard doesn't sell > anything made in triangular shapes. ...interesting because it's the very thing I was bemoaning on the DomeSteading list: the fact that places like Home Depot sell all kinds of ready-made modular materials but none in triangular or pentagonal shapes/configurations. Why? Because somebody created a market in 4x8 rectangles and variations thereof. Do the materials the rectangles are made of come *naturally* in 4x8 rectangles? Well... it seems to me that all the waste Lloyd bemoans is a result of trying to make rectangles fit the *desired* configurations. Which is why I'm steadily on the lookout for building materials that don't impose some prefab standard on me. Lloyd asserts: I discovered [the technical drawbacks] all the hard way, so I know them well. I maintain: I've lived in rectangular, badly-crafted houses all my life, so I know them well. I'm willing to put up with *at least* this much trouble in order to try something different that at least addresses the problems with square boxes that I already know about. Okay, with my tongue removed from my cheek, I have to say that his point appears to be that there is an extensive body of resource support for building with rectangular systems that does not apply well to geodesic designs... and that it's hard to use this support base for building designs that diverge from the rectangular standard. My point is that I would not be interested in these things if I were willing to settle for the kinds of standard-issue day-to-day maintenance applied to the same standard-issue aesthetics that result from standard-issue rectangles. I have a much dog-eared copy of Shelter, and Lloyd's right, it is a celebration of human spirit... beautiful, ingenious structures, allmost none of which are made from the kinds of builder-supply products he insists create such drawbacks for Dome construction. I'm on a search for appropriate building materials/methods/designs. And I want to feel good about the space I've enclosed, instead of consoling myself that I got the "most bang for my buck." My fingers are tired... I'm going home. jmr ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 01:30:51 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Dome MISinfo Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com Comments: cc: geodesic@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Don Stevens quoted from "Refried Domes". It should be made very clear that Don cannot be held responsible for a single word of it. My comments are indented (like this line), while the original is not: "Refried Domes" is a well-known whining little tract from someone who single-handedly spread much disinformation on the subject of domes. The disinformation continues in "Refried Domes", only the "spin" is now that "Domes are Bad", when, in fact, the message should be that "All Structures Are No Better Than Their Designers And Builders". >It was the call last night that finally did it. "Lloyd, a friend of >mine just built a dome in Big Sur and wants to know what to cover it >with." Anyone attempting to build ANY structure before deciding on basic issues like "what to cover it with" deserves whatever he gets! (Any writer who ends his introductory sentence with a preposition also shows a certain lack of skill, panache, and planning, but I digress.) >-A few days earlier there had been the call from a dome designer I'd met >back in the dome glory days. These so-called "glory days" set back the acceptability of domes as respectable structures several decades, due to the fumbling attempts of people like "Lloyd" (above), who had neither the education, the expertise, or the manual dexterity to build a birdhouse, let alone a dome. >-I started building domes in Big Sur in 1966. This admission alone should be a caution to the reader. Bug Sur? 1966? Need we say more? >-With all the interest in domes and other alternative concepts of the >times, and due to the extent of our dome design and experimentation, we >soon became the focus and clearing house for the counterculture's >domebuilding movement of the late '60s '70s. The counterculture built domes just about as well as they built coalitions, and nearly as well as they focused their efforts to bring about political change, which is to say "not at all". >-By 1970 it was obvious that there was enough information Correction: rumor and misinformation >and interest for some type of publication. We borrowed the Whole Earth >Catalog's production facilities and in 1970 produced Domebook One and >then in 1971 Domebook 2, which went on to sell 175,000 copies. Once again, doing much to set the entire industry back roughly 15-20 years, and lending support to the otherwise misguided people who advocate book-burning. >Throughout this time we maintained a network of dome builders and >designers. Who propagated the same errors, misconceptions, and half-backed approaches... > By then we had built 17 domes at Pacific High School, and to tell the >truth, the workmanship was less than exquisite. As was the design work, the math, the conceptual effort, the planning, the implementation, the quality of materials, the quality control, (I could go on forever with this list). >The time factor (just a few months to beat the rains), Correction: the "lack of planning and scheduling factor" >the age factor (teenage workmanship), Funny how Mongol teenagers have built Yurts with great skill and craftsmanship since before Christ was born, huh? Please recall that said Mongol teenagers had no formal education in much of anything, unlike the author of "Refried Domes". (Of course, Mongol teenagers also conquered nearly all of their known world more than once.) >the cost factor ($1200 per dome), Once again, "lack of planning factor". >and of course, the dope factor, Both in the form of mind-expanding substances of a chemical nature AND the apparent choice of "Dopey" from "Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs" as project manager. >all took their toll in the fine product. What fine product? "Fine Products" do not require excuses. >...all the attention made me think very carefully about domes. For what appears to have been the very first time. >I liked this dome far better than any I'd ever been in, but the >problems of dome construction and dome living did nothing but >increase. Proving that he had not thought carefully enough. >Domes weren't practical, economical or -aesthetically tolerable >-- at least for my life and sensibilities. Which shows that some people are simply not good prospects for being dome-home owners, just as some people are not good prospects for living in a Victorian-style home. >-A cycle completed, a process carried full circle: mission impossible. No, it was "Mission Improbable". The wrong people, doing the wrong things for the wrong reasons, without proper tools, skills, or the humility to seek the guidance of even a single qualified carpenter, let alone an architect. NOTHING was completed, no process was carried past the "enthusiastic thrashing-about stage". The entire effort seems to have been nothing but a source of material for the comedian Tim Allen, who stars in the USA TV show "Home Improvement". >-We then went on to publish two more books on building: Shelter(1973) >and Shelter II(1978). Given their great performance in the area of domes, imagine how good their advice was in THIS area. >Both these books outlined the advantages of rectilinear construction >(and most notably stud-frame construction) for building one's own home >in North America. The disadvantages of domes were also well documented. Funny how the same folks who were dome advocates suddenly became dome critics, eh? >-Yet since that time -- in fact since Domebook 2 went out of print in >1973 -- we've had a steady stream of calls -and letters on domes: This is rather like writing to the captain of the Exxon Valdez, asking for help in basic seamanship and navigation. >-Here's our answer to all those dome questions. This is rather like General George Custer writing a pamphlet on "How To Get Along With Other Cultures". >This hastily-assembled Like everything attempted by this crew, even their writing was done in haste, with little planning or forethought, and has many excuses attached. >- 1.To present our hard-earned opinion of domes as homes. >(They don't work.) When built by drug-soaked hippies who should have and could have at least hired one journeyman to show them basic techniques and skills useful in building ANY structure. >- 2.To reprint some long out-of-print And error-filled >mathematical information from Domebook 2. (Models do work.) But many, if built from the math in Domebook 1 and 2 will NOT work, not even as models. >Mamas, don't let your mathematicians grow up to become builders... Please DO let your mathematicians grow up to be builders, if for no other purpose than to prove that ANYONE can learn the skills required to build ANY home, if they attempt to lean BEFORE setting off half-cocked to build the predictably cock-eyed structure that results from half-cocked efforts. >-Buckminster Fuller didn't invent the geodesic dome. The first guy who >stitched together a soccer ball did. Wrong. The first guy who built a Yurt did. >Each panel is a triangle made with 2 x 4 sides (struts) 2 x 4s can be used, but 2x6s and 2x8s are much more common in well-engineered structures of any size, including domes. Once again, one does not make flat statements like "made with 2x4s" about ANY structure. One must DESIGN such things. >-To build a dome, you invite a bunch of friends and relatives who aren't >fast enough on the draw to think of an excuse for not pitching in, What excellent qualifications for a work crew!!! Hey! Let's build a house with people TO STUPID TO DECIDE IF THEY ARE EVEN INTERESTED!!! Gee, I sure want to sleep under a roof built by highly skilled and motivated workers like these! >lay in a load of food and a keg of beer, And, on top of that, let's get them DRUNK!!! What Pure Genius! >and you sling up this kit, using a 3-stage, 15-foot scaffolding >and 9/16" ratchet wrenches. The use of the term "sling" seems to illustrate the entire problem with the writer's point of view. One "assembles" precision things like clocks, Saturn V boosters, and domes. One only "slings" hammocks, rocks and corned beef hash. At least he agrees to scaffolds. (This is the first accurate and prudent thing said in the entire document!) >-At 7 a.m., there's nothing there but a foundation. By 7 p.m. or so, >there is a 22-foot-high plywood-covered dome standing there, Or perhaps more accurately, wobbling there. >looking for all the world like an alien spaceship landed. Which points to the need for better site selection and minimal clearing of trees. Once again, planning, planning, planning. >-That's as far as you get with the dome kit: a plywood shell. If all you BUILD is the shell, all you GET is the shell. Once again, it is a good idea to think a bit about windows, doors, bathrooms, electrical panels, and the other 999,999 things that would go into ANY house for at least a few minutes BEFORE one starts "slinging up a dome". >It looks like an enormous accomplishment, but it is really only >about one percent of the finished house. The shell of any structure is just a shell. Did he somehow expect that one could simply bolt some panels together, and somehow end up with a wired, plumbed, decorated and furnished home? Can one make a Jenn-Aire convection oven from 2x4s and plywood? >The dome will not support anything but itself, so if you want a >loft or second floor, you have to build another house inside the >one you just built. If you used 2x4s, this is most likely true, but if you got your kit from any of the many reputable kit vendors, you would have been shipped a kit that included proper framing for lofts and/or 2nd floors. You would have also been shipped rather thick binders of information that might have helped you avoid self-inflicted wounds of the sort outlined in this document. >You also have to learn how to deal with non-standard angles. If you do not learn to deal with "non-standard angles" you will not get as far as building the shell, will you? >I had to move the kitchen range three feet because the oven door, >it turned out, was going to get stuck in an acute angle. It looked >a lot simpler on the floor plan. This bozo had a FLOOR PLAN? I am amazed, since a floor plan would have revealed this sort of problem before construction started. It must have not been a very good floor plan to allow the error cited to go unnoticed. >-The floor plan is nearly circular. Unless you build a non-circular geodesic, which this fellow seems to have never even heard of. >Anyway you slice it up, you come out with wedge-shaped corners >somewhere. Gee, don't rectangular structures have wedge-shaped corners too? Is not the concept of a "corner" based upon geometric features that might be called "wedge-shaped"? Does not the overall footprint of a dome have a striking LACK of "corners"? Perhaps I am missing something here. >-And if you make one room larger, the floor space has to come out of >some other room. Given any finite total space, it would seem obvious that making one room larger would require the space to come from SOMEWHERE. ("Dr. Who" fans are excused from this limitation, but to my knowledge, no structure other than a Timelord's Tardis is larger on the inside than on the outside.) >You can't just make the house larger. Gosh, this fellow never heard of a multi-dome structure either. Too bad. Any halfway competent kit vendor could have addressed all his concerns long before he got anywhere near a hammer, and designed him a dome that he might have liked, at a price that he could have afforded. >There are places you can't put windows in downstairs, because you >can't pierce the lower parts of the dome without weakening it. Pure bull. Look at any dome. Any triangle you pick can be a window or a door, or contain a window or a door. You can even "nuke out" a panel (leaving the framing) and pop a window in where none was before with LESS trouble/work than you would have with a typical frame house. >-Somewhere along the line, you also discover that contractors like >working on domes the way they like having double pneumonia. More to the point, they are wary of working for a CLIENT with as many unreasonable expectations and misconceptions as the writer. >In brief, these are the chief technical drawbacks. I discovered them >all the hard way, so I know them well. It goes without saying that I >did not anticipate any of them before starting: Which means that the writer would have had "technical problems" in attempting to put up a pup tent!! Being able to "anticipate" is the very essence of design and engineering. Failure to "anticipate" is total failure. Each and every one of his "findings" have been addressed over and over by nearly all reputable kit vendors, and this is why a set of plans obtained from a kit vendor can meet the BOCA code requirements (the national standards), and have both an engineer's and architect's seal. The "seals" mean that the engineer stands behind his work, and the buyer/home-owner can sue (and collect real dollars from the engineer's "Errors and Omissions" insurance coverage) if the resulting structure has substantial problems caused by poor engineering. I will not bother to respond point-by-point, but will leave the responses to the kit vendors, who by now may have booklets printed up to respond to this sort of nay-saying drivel on a detailed point-by-point basis. If this Pop-Tart had been born a bit earlier, civilization itself might have been delayed by several generations. On the other hand, he clearly illustrates how little actual expertise in a specific area has to do with becoming semi-famous in "the field". The socioeconomic implications of this observation are left as an exercise for the reader. If the internet "improves" communication, please explain spamming and flame-wars. james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 10:08:57 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: NannyQueen@AOL.COM Subject: Re: HELP URGENTLY NEEDED PLEASE Comments: To: jsm@fingon.norlink.net, GAELIC-L@irlearn.ucd.ie, GAMES-L@brownvm.brown.edu, GARDENS@ukcc.uky.edu, GATEWAY2000@sei.cmu.edu, GAY-LIBN@usc.edu, GAYNET@athena.mit.edu, GC-L@uriacc.uri.edu, GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu, GEOGRAPH@searn.sunet.se, GLB-NEWS@brownvm.brown.edu Charity begins at home, dear. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:47:33 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Pine Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: Refried Domes J. Michael Rowland wrote: >Thanks, Dennis Johnson, for forwarding me Lloyd Kahn's "Refried Domes" story >of his personal disenchantment. You might also enjoy Steve Baer's 40 page Dome Cookbook, 5th edition, 1996, from Trial and Error/P O Box 1327/Corrales, NM 87048. Some quotes: Is the cube as they say "dead," or is it instead another type of life form that with its characteristic rectilinear grid is slowly taking over the planet like some kind of galactic impetigo? Is my discussion already hopelessly compromised, lying as it does on rectangular sheets of paper? I can not answer these questions... These are instructions on how to almost break out of prison. The prison is the paucity of shapes to which we have in the past confined ourselves because of our technology-industry-education-economy... Make the faces stiff enough so that you can jump up and down anywhere on any one of them without it giving... Car tops are a good building material. They are cheap, strong, have an excellent paint job and are available almost everywhere... Most tops taken off a car with an axe will be between 45 and 52 inches wide and 50 to 70 inches long; a station wagon will give as much as 8 feet and a van or mini-bus even more. An experienced man with a good axe can easily chop 5 or 6 tops an hour, and when the cars are packed close together so you don't have to touch ground you can go faster than this... Power saws with carborundum blades, electric unishears, electric nibblers, acetylene torches, pneumatic chisels all of these will take tops off. The advantage of using an axe is that it's cheap and after some practice it can become a real pleasure to chop the top out of a car. Chop along the sides first then the front and back. Throw open the doors-- one foot on an open door and one foot on the car is a good stance for chopping the sides... Recently Mandel Bell and I rented an air compressor, marked off the shapes we needed right on the cars and then cut them out easily with a pneumatic chisel. Cutting the trimmed shapes right out of the junk yard eliminated at least two thirds of the work in the previous routine. It also meant we could haul twice as many tops in a load... At Drop City we couldn't get the second-to-last pentagon in. We took a day off. During this day a very strong chinook wind blew, the continual working of the building in this strong wind must have cooked the whole structure because the next morning the pentagon dropped right into place... A zonahedron is a convex polyhedron all of whose faces are zonagons and a zonagon is a polygon whose sides are in equal and parallel pairs. Zonagons can be stretched to form different shapes without altering angles... The first man to work with zonahedra was the Russian crystallographer Federov... More recently zonahedra have been investigated by P. Donchian who predicted that they were 3D projections of four dimensional figures--this has now been proved. I first read of zonahedra in H. S. M. Coxeter's excellent book Regular Polytopes and in his contribution to W. W. Rouse Ball's book Mathematical Recreations & Essays... Any zonahedron can be dissected into 1/6xn(n-1)(n-2) parallelepipeds... one for every 3 of the n directions. These volumes are easy to calculate--so the total volume is also easy... A rhombic dodecahedron and an exploded rhombic dodecahedron. In this case it has been exploded just as far as the edge lengths of the diamonds. In this picture all the zones are the same length and they are also equal to the explosion a=b=c=d=e. Fused cluster of exploded rhombic dodecahedra. The zones have been stretched different lengths and the entire cluster is cut by the plane of the floor. These are zomes... I have made huge nets of rubber bands and strings. I first did this on the wooden attic floor of my wife's grandmother's house in Switzerland. During the same time Audrey and I were experimenting with blowing soap bubbles... In the book 20th Century Engineering there is a picture of a planetarium built in Germany in 1922--it has the form of a multifrequency geodesic dome. Who invented this form? I don't believe it was Buckminster Fuller... I bought Fuller's untitled Epic Poem on Industrialization in London Oct 1963. I had never heard of Fuller and didn't know what the strange looking structure was on the cover. I believe this is the best book Fuller has written. I have reread it many times... as I read it I felt as if my mind were learning to swim. Does anyone else understand the world so well as Fuller--if so why can't the rest of us sing about it as he can? Nick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:04:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: REFRIED DOMES CRITIQUE Comments: To: James Fischer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James, Your critique of 'Refried Domes' is absolutely brilliant! I agree with you 100%. I took the liberty of forwarding a copy to the DOMES List and Jay Baldwin, one of the editors of the Whole Earth Review magazine. I met "J" the first time at Pacific High School (where many of the domes in DB1 were built) in the hills above Los Gatos, CA, in 1970 just before "Domebook One' was published. Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:07:05 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: Beauty and the Koski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: David B Koski > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: syn-l: Beauty and the Koski > Date: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 01:24 AM > > So he has outdone himself again, albeit not without the help of his very > artistically inclined brother, Robert J Koski. What with all his 'paint it > black' hubris, his slightly updated website: http://www2.bitstream.net/~dbkoski/ > purports to show a 'mandala' worthy of mythic proportion. > As we in the biz have said all along, DBK, show us the money! > As this so called artist DBKoski continues to challenge us, we continue to > yawn at his teasings. > You ask us to see the dance, DK, but show no moves. We ask you, "what are > we supposed to get from such cryptic clues?" > Quoth DBK: "To see this cross-section of the Rhombic Triacontahedron > actually make it on the web, gives me hope". Hope? as in the general public > is going to spend time on your nose-blown kleenex. Com'on DBKoski, produce > something digestable. We don't want to hear how you engineered it, just > see what you engineered. If it is so damned sexy, please name a price. > Quoth Koski: "It'll cost you nothing, but your time". "The dance is in the > still" further quoth. > > > --David B Koski > http://www2.bitstream.net/~dbkoski/ > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 20:10:41 GMT Reply-To: e.oti@stud.warande.ruu.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elliott Oti Organization: The Gauge Variance Promotion Society Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit meron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote: > Other than the naivette involved in "the Americans have each made a > >personal commitment to do more with less " (if we all just make a > personal commitment to always obey the law, we'll not need police and > courts), the above is just bad economy. Anything I consume is the > fruit of somebodies labor. When I consume less, somebody has less > work. Decrease over consumption by, say, 10% and you've the Great > Depression all over again. > ?? I know I'm butting in someone else's argument, but is this thread about reduction in consumption levels or more equal redistribution of resources? Simplistic example: Mary sells buns for $5 /piece. John has $10, Abe has $4. John buys two buns. Abe goes hungry. John is happy, Mary is happy, Abe starves and dies. Reduction in consumption level: John buys 1 bun. Mary makes $5 less, Abe goes hungry, John thinks: "I'd have liked another bun". Nobody's happy. The Great Depression hits and Abe & Mary starve to death. ( basically what you're saying, Mr. Meron ?) Redistribution of resources: John buys 2 buns, resells 1 to Abe for $4. Mary is happy, Abe and John are reasonably happy (though they'd have both liked another bun). (basically what Kirk was saying ?) Given the average American mid-class WASP's antipathy towards welfare (admittedly not without reason) and anything that remotely smells of socialism or subsidy, I can imagine the second alternative may not attract too many cheers from that quarter. It means a drop in their consumption level. Higher taxes, work-more-keep-less, thou shalt give a tenth unto the poor and all that, you know. Not neccessarily a drop in production. I was under the impression, though, that the thread begun as a consequence of the philosophical (did someone mumble "moral"?) standpoint that the good from saving 75,000 people from starvation daily supercedes even the frightful horrors that result from welfare, handouts, subsidies, tax increases, and other satanic practices. And that maybe a closer look into how wealth, opportunities and resources can be better distributed while minimising the negative effects of dependency, is called for. After all, the status quo isn't perfect, is it? And with the obvious preponderance of first class minds that the Usenet has, it should be a piece of cake to create a world utopia. -- ------------ Elliott Oti --------------- ------------- http://www.fys.ruu.nl/~oti --------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:58:22 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Dome MISinfo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote: > > Funny how Mongol teenagers have built Yurts with > great skill and craftsmanship since before Christ > was born, huh? Please recall that said Mongol > teenagers had no formal education in much of > anything, unlike the author of "Refried Domes". > (Of course, Mongol teenagers also conquered nearly > all of their known world more than once.) > Good curmudgeony virtriol Mr. Fischer. I'm glad the Mongol teens escaped your scorn (for your sake or theirs I'm not saying). Not sure Yurts are really geodesics though, all domes not so being, as St. Peter's attests. At my website, the first true geodesic on record is attributed to Walter Bauersfeld (1922). Finally saw a picture of his work in the 'International Journal of Space Structures' (Vol 11, Nos1&2 pg. 10) and there's just no arguing is there (about it's being geodesic I mean)? But then I haven't seen any up close pix of traditional Afghani yurts lately, so I'm keeping an open mind. I know from Fuller's 'Critical Path' that the yurt-geodesic link was made by the Afghanis themselves, and accounted for the popularity his dome received in that neck o the woods. As Bucky tells it, the King was especially impressed. That whole section is worth quoting I'd say: ======= I received an emergency call from Jack Masey of the U.S. State Department's U.S. Information Agency. He asked me how long it would take me to produce a 10,000-square-foot-floor-area geodesic dome so light and compactly shippable that it could be sent by one DC-4 airplane to Kabul. My Raleigh, North Carolina, shop had it produced in twenty-five days, complete with a high-tension, all-weather skin outwardly tensed to its geodesic, tubular aluminum frame. All the struts and hubs of the dome were color-coded. The 114-feet-in-diameter dome was test-assembled at the Raleigh airport and accepted by the U.S.A. It was flown to Kabul with my one engineering representatives to supervise its erection by the Afghans. It was assembled in one day just in time for the Geshin Fair opening. The U.S.A. show inside consisted of the Borden's "laughing cow," bouncing ball bearings, and Lionel trains. No one showed interest in the show inside, but all the Afghans, the Russians and East Germans, the Chinese and Czechs, were fascinated with the geodesic dome itself. The Russians asked permission to bring in their moving picture equipment to make a documentary of the dome construction. The then king of Afghanistan fell in love with the dome -- it was a great modern-materials Afghan yurt -- the Afghans' own architecture. The king asked the U.S.A. to give him the dome, but the U.S.A. refused and sent the dome off as an around-the -world traveling show. ======= Fuller goes on at this point to narrate his vision of the Russian security apparatus taking advantage of religious fault lines to better organize its affairs (e.g. by gaining better access to port facilities etc.), a development Fuller considers 'evolutionary' and doesn't seem inclined to whine about, except for the fact that room needs to be made in this picture for individual initiative (a capitalist ideal) and the emergence of democratic principles on a more global basis. He has his Russians admitting this is a serious need and so this chapter has a happy ending (this was all before the Desert Storm fiasco and continued war games with the Kurds and so on). Anyway, I agree with your post: a lot of misinformation about domes out there, including the idea that domes were the only dwelling solution Fuller or his schools were interested in. The central idea is to take our most advanced engineering concepts, space program included, and adapt them for the civilian sector. Domes have a place in this theater, but so do many other props, including cities that float, towers of various kinds, whatever we can dream up and manage to fund (environmental impacts weighed very seriously, given the ecosystem's low tolerance for mistakes this late in the game). Right now, the job is to educate the public on what's possible (versus what's not, e.g. 'Federation Science' ala Hollywood's mock up of '24th century design science') so that we can start replacing the nightmare near future forecasting that promotes either tuning out or a terrorist reponse -- take your pick. To this end, my Project Renaissance approach is coupling high technology with public sector enterprising, setting the stage for getting serious about removing the causes of war (e.g. watching your family starve to death) vs political lip service to noble, yet seemingly ever unimplemented, ideals. Kirby Principal 4D Solutions For more on the Project Renaissance approach: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/pr.html ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:37:45 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Refried Domes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit nick@ufo.ee.vill.edu (Nick Pine) wrote: >J. Michael Rowland wrote: > > In the book 20th Century Engineering there is a picture of a planetarium > built in Germany in 1922--it has the form of a multifrequency geodesic dome. > Who invented this form? I don't believe it was Buckminster Fuller... > Walter Bauersfeld had a geodesic dome going back then. See my web page http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domehist.html for a link (still no good picture of the 1922 dome on the web yet, that I've been able to find). As to 'who invented this form' I don't get that 'who' is appropriate -- unless you want to personify nature as 'she'. Fuller discovered the geodesic structures via his investigation of nature's coordinate system (not by swiping the idea from Bauersfeld), and by the same means came up with his 'octet truss' (just like Alexander Bell had, years prior). Whereas I agree that humans are endowed with genius and inventiveness and deserve a measure of satisfaction, joy and a sense of completion for their powers of discernment and construction, I do tire of this need to ever mete out little pie-slice awards, braided honors, merit badges for doing this, that and the other. Not that I'm anxious to stop others from indulging in this practice, just that I think 'we' (includes 'I') get too snagged on vanity-tripping sometimes. While we're busy trying to decide who gets the credit and staging bonfire-lit soap operatics around the theme of 'wounded egos', others are moving in and encircling, paying close to zero attention to our shadowy vanity games, preparing to make a killing. The wild world of nature cares naught for plummage -- all those feathers just get in the way when it comes to serious eating. No one owns nature's principles and they're available to anyone with an appetite when it comes to their implementation. > I bought Fuller's untitled Epic Poem on Industrialization in London > Oct 1963. I had never heard of Fuller and didn't know what the strange > looking structure was on the cover. I believe this is the best book Fuller > has written. I have reread it many times... as I read it I felt as if my > mind were learning to swim. Does anyone else understand the world so well > as Fuller--if so why can't the rest of us sing about it as he can? > >Nick > I think 'Grunch of Giants' was his best literary work -- a matter of taste, I realize. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 20:41:54 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Menu user Organization: University Library Utrecht Subject: Re: Refried Domes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi nick, i am going to see if i can attach your letter to answer some of your puzzels-like me, no answers yet. i just say this, your speaking about the cube indicates that you are confused and just putting nice sentences, somhow searching for answers. this what i want to say, that no one in this newgroup yet can sincerly say that they have oriented themselfes with the ve coordiantion instead of the cube. i post this as chalange. the difference about Fuller, is that he asked his own questions, and started very early with operative principles-due may be to his boating experience. because of that he spontaniously questioned the creek geometrical truths. becuse he was operative, he didnt study the whole thing, just questioned these laws befor they infentrated his mind. i suggest a stratagy in my home page to start questioning, check my home page http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/ 9476 for me it is better to try than not. we have seen alot of things fuller said that dont apply to us. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 22:29:19 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Comments: To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU#!rnews4578 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elliott Oti wrote: >I was under the impression, though, that the thread begun as a >consequence of the philosophical (did someone mumble "moral"?) >standpoint that the good from saving 75,000 people from starvation daily >supercedes even the frightful horrors that result from welfare, >handouts, subsidies, tax increases, and other satanic practices. Thanks for writing Elliott. According to my accounts, the thread started with my memo, 'Science and the Internet' cross-posted to several newsgroups, suggesting that scientists waste less time hammering on religion or other non-science camps and turn inward to engage in the complex process of sorting out what's already in inventory, trying to give some shape and structure to the scientific enterprise as a whole, given that science is part of the human enterprise, and, like it or no, a lot hangs in the balance. I indicated that this was no easy undertaking, given the specialization and compartmentation among the disciplines and the tendency for each peer system to evangelize its own subnet's contributions while refraining from supplying frank judgements or assessments on neighboring disciplines, also within the 'scientific sphere', meaning those coming from outside, looking to assess what's most promising and likely to move us in a positive direction, and looking to qualified scientists to help provide such an overview, often hit a wall of noncommunication, because scientists find it easier to join against common enemies than to break ranks and start critiquing across interdepartmental lines. I further advanced the thesis that science advancing under the aegis of regimes with institutional antipathy towards supernaturalism -- which might include antipathy towards some brands of religion -- had perhaps ironically encouraged the growth of scientific enterprising that had more to say about some of the same phenomena that are left to the more religiously minded in western cultures, where the state has tried a more hands off approach vis-a-vis matters spiritual. I concluded with my own personal agenda, which included the assessment that science has crossed a threshold (I take 'the 1970s' as a rough estimate of when) whereby 'taking care of humanity' at sustainably high living standards is no longer futuristic science fiction ala 24th century 'Federation Science' (aka Star Trek fantasy) but rather is a doable proposition, and that this state of affairs casts our age under differently slanted lights, looking back from hypothetical future historian viewpoints, where continued inaction must be traced to the inability, on the part of scientists who share my assessment of the situation, to adequately impart their intelligence to the general public, which would surely demand action, and pronto, if the full scope of what I'm outlining, in all of its parameters, could be sufficiently spelled out and shared via the media. Kirby Design Science Central http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 19:34:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gib Cooper Subject: Bamboo Industry, USA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" DATED MATERIAL---------PRESS RELEASE----------------------------6/6/97---- Bamboo Industry, USA 1997 Pacific Northwest Bamboo Agroforestry Workshop (PNW97) June 21-23, 1997 at Ft. Worden, Port Townsend, Washington A great many of America's bamboo business people will assemble at Ft. Worden in Port Townsend, Washington on June 21-23. People are traveling from all over the country to learn about new developments with bamboo as a farm crop and a building material. There is a feeling of cooperation and sharing among the speakers and registrants. Those in the bamboo business will be promoting some of the many uses of bamboo. The gathering of bamboo experts and new growers will be of great significance as we progress on to the new millennium. Three days of bamboo related topics and events bears credence to the saying that bamboo is "the plant of a thousand uses". The variety of presentations on Saturday and Sunday require registration to attend. However, the tradeshow and the bamboo plant sale are open to the public. These events will be in the chapel at Fort Worden. Vendors representing farm consultants, artists and suppliers will have bamboo building products, books, and art for sale. The tradeshow hours are from 9 AM to 6 PM both Saturday and Sunday. The bamboo plant sale begins at 6 PM on Sunday until all plants are sold. On Monday, June 23, beginning at 9 AM architects Simon Velez and Darrel DeBoer are leading a "Building with Bamboo" workshop. Four styles of roof trusses from bamboo poles will be constructed using bamboo joinery techniques. Both Velez and DeBoer are speakers in the seminars. Preregistration is required for the popular hands-on class. The 1997 Pacific Northwest Bamboo Agroforestry Workshop is sponsored by the Pacific Northwest Chapter of the American Bamboo Society and Washington State University, Jefferson and Lewis County Cooperative Extension. For more information about the PNW97 contact Gib Cooper at 541/247-0835 or by e-mail: bambugib@harborside.com. Gib Cooper TRADEWINDS BAMBOO NURSERY 28446 Hunter Creek Loop Gold Beach, OR 97444 Tel & FAX: 541/247-0835 http://www.harborside.com/bamboo/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:08:51 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I agree much economic non-optimality is an act of man as opposed to >what they used to call an act of God; the Great Depression is a prime >example: What war, famine, plague, sudden exhaustion of natural >resources, etc, etc, plunged the United States (and I apologize to >the rest of the world, I know even less about the world history of >that period than US history, which ain't much...) into semi-economic >ruin in in 1929? Answer: Absolutely nothing external. People, >resources, skills, all there. Production, employment; not there. >Why? Systemic failure. > This is a clearly worded hypothesis, one which I would agree with to some extent. Certain truisms lurk in the perihelion of such a view however, in that, yes, if we'd only known then what we know now, we could have prevented... the wisdom of 20-20 hindsight in other words. Like, if humans had modern science when they only numbered in the millions, think how quickly they might have brought human affairs into secure and sustainable alignment with their ecosystem context, vs today, when all the variables fluctuate in a much more complicated econosphere wherein, I would surmize, we have far less room for error, given the already overtaxed ecosystems and momentum towards oblivion developed in the intervening centuries. However, now that we _do_ have 21st century science (western calendar) at least in prototype form, on our late 20th century drawing boards, I think we can sketch out realistic, implementable storyboards wherein the various dark ages science fiction developments forecast in this decade are replaced with brighter scenarios, meaning we could actually create television set in the near future and have it be attractive to viewers as indicative of lifestyles they might actually covet (TV series attractive to sponsors for this same reason). This would be in contrast to the current trend, which is to have the most positive outlooks for humanity show up in the intangibly distant future (ala Star Trek and 24th century 'Federation Science') with the shading becoming darker and darker as we approach the near future, which has been characterized by either post-Holocaust settings ('Road Warrior', 'Planet of the Apes') or nightmarish capitalist distopias with very steep pyramids -- thronging sweating masses at the base, and a very few all-powerful CEOs in their glass towers -- ala 'Johnny Mnemonic', 'Bladerunner' and 'Brazil'. >This suggests a third category is need beyond 'Act of God' and 'Act of >Man'. There may be villains for the Great Depression, and some people >are always eager to find them, but the process was hardly the result >of the diabolical machinations of SMIRSH. It was more biological; an >unplanned derangement of the system. In psychology we used to call >minor examples of this 'neuroses'. Stalin's purges were an act of >Man, but the Great Depression was an act of Men (well, I'm trying... >_you_ think of a catchier phrase if you don't like it). I think >Starvation falls much closer to the unplanned act of men category, >then to the villainous act of man. > I think you're right to circle in on 'derangement' and 'neuroses' (recalling the clinical connotations of 'Great Depression' talk). Instead of looking through the eyes of police investigators or judges, looking for villains, I think, as scientists, we'd do better to wear our doctor glasses and see signs of mental illness, a lot of it amplified or even rooted in the barrages of misinfor- mation that have so polluted our shared information pool. It's difficult to think straight in the absence of much cross-checked, omnitriangulated information about real time states of affairs. The 'situation room' aesthetics we need to cultivate as an antidote to this sorry state, fed by cyberspace aesthetics already central to Hollywood's storyboards, even if hyped and exaggerated in the mock up versions, are a part of what Design Science aims to provide. Part of this 'aesthetics' is less reliance on mock ups and more focus on real world, real time global data, and blockbuster films which have working prototypes for props, not just mock ups, make believe stunts, with highly paid actors emoting on cue for the cameras, but with nothing really happening worth all that gut wrenching behavior (like a bunch of computerized special effects are going to get my adrenalin flowing? -- really now (of course some simulators are able to get even test pilots the shakes, but thats because they're about simulating real world conditions, not some screen writer's head trip)). >But it seems to me plausible that while we are asking the bad old >first world to give up some prosperity to help the less fortunate, >they may with equal justice demand an immediate reduction in birth >rate -- no if's, and's or but's, and no damn excuses. No one is asking the bad old first world to give up anything. This is not the politics of 'big sacrifice' out of some sense of liberal guilt. This is simply a logical response to the situation we face, with a strong hand to play. The USA is moving to act, based on the science we now have in inventory, to do its share. This may be news to people on sci.physics, but it ain't necessarily news thereby. >I am incapable of such measure in the face of such sentiments; though >maybe you even say they are partially justified. Well... sure. But I >can't stomach the 'blame America first' hypocrisy. It's childish. At >least we _try_ to stabilize our corner of the planet. Isn't that a >start? Should we do something different? Yawn. I say you could use a new script writer. This all sounds like lame game yesteryear stuff to my ears. Doesn't move me, except to change channels. >Right now I'm more disgusted with stereotypical liberals than >stereotypical conservatives; but that's probably just because they >are the dominant species here in NYC. Yeah, maybe that's your problem. NYC is something of a back water. You should maybe come out to the Pacific Rim for a visit. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 20:18:56 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Comments: To: e.oti@stud.warande.ruu.nl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neither: It's about generating so much new wealth that there's plenty for all. Don't have to take anything away from anyone, period. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Elliott Oti > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Science and the Internet > Date: Tuesday, June 10, 1997 01:10 PM > (snip) > I know I'm butting in someone else's argument, but is this thread about > reduction in consumption levels or more equal redistribution of > resources? > (snip) > -- > ------------ Elliott Oti --------------- > ------------- http://www.fys.ruu.nl/~oti --------- > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:20:52 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Free Cable Organization: Free Cable Subject: CABLE BOX DESCRAMBLER BUILD YOUR OWN DESCRAMBLER FAST CHEAP AND EASY CABLE BOX DESCRAMBLER BUILD YOUR OWN DESCRAMBLER FAST CHEAP AND EASY Just a few inexpensive parts from Radio Shack and a little time and you can descramble every cable channel. See all your favorite movie channels,pay per view etc To recieve detail instructions and diagrams on how to construct your own Cable Box Descrambler Mail $5.00 CASH MONEY ORDER CHECK S&G Enterprise 12145 Augusta Woods Cir Suite 3 Orlando FL. 32824 Please be sure to include your full name & address Allow 10 days to recieve Thank You Seth Garner ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:17:03 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In-Reply-To: <5nfrbr$e1c@panix2.panix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There's a very simple answer to the starving millions. Ignore them and they will go away. In case some of them have enough equiptment, stockpile some weaponry, to blow them away if they come calling. This approach is probably kinder than feeding the millions today, so that they will become billions in the not so distant future. Of course, there's a price to pay. Rudi Treutlein, who has been hungry in his day, but not that hungry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:28:59 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Refried Domes In-Reply-To: <0002A451.fc@management21.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >...interesting because it's the very thing I was bemoaning on the DomeSteading >list: the fact that places like Home Depot sell all kinds of ready-made modular >materials but none in triangular or pentagonal shapes/configurations. Why? >Because somebody created a market in 4x8 rectangles and variations thereof. Do >the materials the rectangles are made of come *naturally* in 4x8 r It's not that somebody created a market for 4x8s, it's just that squared up timber is traditional, right back to lord knows when. Probably when people first started splitting timber. The whole lumber industry is set up on square corners. Metal just followed suit. If you wanted triangular lumber today, they'd take a rectangular piece and plane it to shape, and charge you for the rectagular piece they started with. You could allways get an adze and a tree trunk and roll your own. Rudi T ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 16:36:49 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "J.D.Hoyland" Organization: University of Hull Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit meron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote: > Guess what, there is the trade nowadys is more free than it was for a > very long time and "they" are free to compete in our markets. Some > nations which used to be third world countries are prosperous nowadays > (Singapore, Taiwan, Hong-Kong, to name but a few) and their prosperity > is based on global trade. Of course they also have stable governments > which support business, not kleptocracies, which may have something to > do with their success. > This sadly depends very much on your definition of prosperous, if you mean that buisness feels confident enough to build big shiny buildings then sure, but for the vast majority of the workers in many of these countries they still live under kleptocracies (nice phrase by the way!) because they are still viciously exploited by the "fat cats". When we euphemisticaly use phrases such as "Such and such a country is doing realy well 'cause it's kept it's labour costs down" we must look at what we're really saying, in many cases it means "Big buisness in such and such a country is really efficiently screwing most of the people in that country to make a fast buck.". And just because a government is 'stable' doesn't in itself mean anything, it could be stable because most people are too shit-scared to do anything incase they find themselves with electrodes on their nipples. People should realy stop using the word free as if it is always positive. Free trade is not necessarily fair or usefull trade in terms of the quality of the lives tied up in it. Well that was my halfpenny worth James:) (By the way what has this to do with science and the internet?) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 22:23:55 GMT Reply-To: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: meron@CARS3.UCHICAGO.EDU Organization: CARS, U. of Chicago, Chicago IL 60637 Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In article <339D7490.41C67EA6@apphys.hull.ac.uk>, "J.D.Hoyland" writes: >meron@cars3.uchicago.edu wrote: > >> Guess what, there is the trade nowadys is more free than it was for a >> very long time and "they" are free to compete in our markets. Some >> nations which used to be third world countries are prosperous nowadays >> (Singapore, Taiwan, Hong-Kong, to name but a few) and their prosperity >> is based on global trade. Of course they also have stable governments >> which support business, not kleptocracies, which may have something to >> do with their success. >> > >This sadly depends very much on your definition of prosperous, if you >mean that buisness feels confident enough to build big shiny buildings >then sure, but for the vast majority of the workers in many of these >countries they still live under kleptocracies (nice phrase by the way!) >because they are still viciously exploited by the "fat cats". When we >euphemisticaly use phrases such as "Such and such a country is doing >realy well 'cause it's kept it's labour costs down" we must look at what >we're really saying, in many cases it means "Big buisness in such and >such a country is really efficiently screwing most of the people in that >country to make a fast buck.". Therefore we should judge that since "big business in Zaire (or whatever the hell it is called now) is not really efficiently screwing most of the people in this country" then people there must be better off than in, say, South Korea. But, that doesn't seem to be the case. Estimates based on the assumption that economy is a zero sum game don't work too well. >And just because a government is 'stable' doesn't in itself mean >anything, it could be stable because most people are too shit-scared >to do anything incase they find themselves with electrodes on their >nipples. Stability is a necessery condition for prosperous economy, without which human rights and all the other nice things we're used to in the first world can't hold long. It is not a sufficient condition, I agree. But it doesn't mean that it is worth nothing. It is like saying that having drinking water "doesn't in itself mean anything" since you may have it and still starve to death. You may. But, in its absence you'll die for sure. >(By the way what has this to do with science and the internet?) > Not much. Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:03:39 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mahipalvirdy@ORBITAL.FSD.COM Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In article <5nfrbr$e1c@panix2.panix.com>, erg@panix.com (Edward Green) wrote: > > Jim Carr wrote: > > Oh boy, inflammatory political issues on sci.physics! My absolute > _fave_ (wink at Keith Ramsay here). I mean, I never develop any > emotional energy over physics (wink at myself here). > > Just remember, I didn't start this one... > > >Kirby Urner wrote: > >} > >} I think it also begins with a scientific position: the we have the > >} means to accomplish this result, have for some time. That makes > >} the current agony neither an 'act of nature' nor an 'act of God > >} or gods', meaning willful inaction is starting to supply historians > >} with new ways of looking back on our time ... > > > > One trusts that historians will look at the data. > > > >J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz writes: > >> > >>Starvation on this planet is an act of man. As Kirby says we have the > >>means to solve the problem. Yeah, some sorry Historian in the future is going to look back at the data and weep a solitary tear? A lot of good that does _now_. Or _ever_. [trim] > >>It is politics, politicians, political > >>philosophy that gets in the way ... > > > > At which point one should identify the politicians and philosophies > > responsible for halting the distribution of that food. > > Nor should one forget Malthus. Please, if you would, what's Malthus' story? I can not forget that I don't know. Something to do with my hardwiring. My H/W from an earlier generation. ;-) [trim] > Well, you _know_ what is going to happen: Tribe B is soon straining > at the borders of its half of the forest, looking hungrily at Tribe > A's relatively unpopulated paradise, and _demand their share_. Can't Tribe A start building vertically upwards? Food and VCRs/TV/CPUs can be mass transported into town from anywhere in the world and elevated mechanically up to like 10 to 200 floor levels high, ground conditioning dependent? I bet you mean that we'd eventually still reach some sort of border limitation. 2D or 3D doesn't matter. > And they are right to do so. No individual child born to his intimate > family of twenty sibling in the teaming squalid megalopolis of B > incurred this fate through original sin; no child in A incurred his > privileged status through original virtue. > > And you know what the A-meisters say: Hang on, we started out with > the same cards, we just played ours with a little more foresight. > You are telling us that we _cannot_ exercise foresight, because no > matter what we do, you will simply outbreed us, and our share will > be no bigger than yours, as individuals. > > It seems to me they have a pretty solid stance also. [Whistle]. OK. Breeders, on your marks, get set... Breed! > I'm not an ethicist, [...] > But it seems to me plausible that while we are asking the bad old > first world to give up some prosperity to help the less fortunate, > they may with equal justice demand an immediate reduction in birth > rate -- no if's, and's or but's, and no damn excuses. There earth is > probably _already_ grossly overpopulated. Why 6 billion? Who decided > on this figure? Nobody, of course; it is an act of men. But I > reject any morality that requires the more fortunate to temporarily > alleviate suffering, at the same time accelerating the slide toward > the inevitable mass poverty. I have a question. When the Spainards and the other Europeans landed on the "Americas", did the natives insist their Earth didn't have available resourses to sustain the unwanted immigrants? Basically, why 6B? How many people can a demographic actually sustain? Where are the mathematicians fuc| If the manufacturers pull out will the children be _better_ off? Were the children better off before? It's not so obvious. The Income Prison we do time in has accounted for the quality of life our children's children's children (Hi Moody Blues! ;-) are allocated to have. [trim] > Right now I'm more disgusted with stereotypical liberals than > stereotypical conservatives; but that's probably just because they > are the dominant species here in NYC. I live near Wash DC, the dominant species here are Elephants and Jackasses? Donkeys? Independents? ...Actually I have no clue. I haven't really met them all. Maybe tomorrow. :-) "If the line between science fiction and science fact doesn't drive you crazy, then you're just not tr(y)ing!" --- Mahipal http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3178/mew3.html The |meforce> Paradox -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:17:20 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Filip De Vos Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium Subject: Re: Science and the Internet hmmm. Does sci.astro belong in the Newsgroups line? [sci.astro cut from follow-ups] Elliott Oti (e.oti@stud.warande.ruu.nl) wrote: : ?? : I know I'm butting in someone else's argument, but is this thread about : reduction in consumption levels or more equal redistribution of : resources? No. It is about using present-day science and technology to ensure that all of humanity can live in ...a human condition. Example: if any of the big European car-makers (Ford, GM, Fiat, PSA, Renault, Volkswagen) suddenly would close, we would not even feel the lack of cars, exept in the lack of 'choice'. Similar over-capacity exists in all kinds of production, from grain-mountains and wine-lakes, to construcion or the amount of doctors. It is also about directing the existing science and technology to ends we may see as beneficial, instead of say, producing B-2 bombers. You can make a lot of lives more bearable for a half-billion dollars. On the site of the World Game Institute you can find a lot of the things we can _easily do. [Abe, Mary and John economics (there is that word again) snipped] : Given the average American mid-class WASP's antipathy towards welfare And how does that antipathy come about? Anyway, their are more people in the USA than just mid-class WASP's. : (admittedly not without reason) and anything that remotely smells of : socialism or subsidy, I can imagine the second alternative may not : attract too many cheers from that quarter. It means a drop in their : consumption level. Higher taxes, work-more-keep-less, thou shalt give a So? There is a difference with measuring the well-being of a bunch of humanity with their consumption-level. : tenth unto the poor and all that, you know. Not neccessarily a drop in : production. : I was under the impression, though, that the thread begun as a : consequence of the philosophical (did someone mumble "moral"?) : standpoint that the good from saving 75,000 people from starvation daily : supercedes even the frightful horrors that result from welfare, : handouts, subsidies, tax increases, and other satanic practices. And ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Heh. : that maybe : a closer look into how wealth, opportunities and resources can be better : distributed while minimising the negative effects of dependency, is : called for. After all, the status quo isn't perfect, is it? And with the : obvious preponderance of first class minds that the Usenet has, it : should be a piece of cake to create a world utopia. Well, you gotta start *somewhere* :-) -- Filip De Vos The idea that space travel is inherently enormously expensive is fraudulent. FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be John S. Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 08:38:52 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: JustWINK Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Refried Domes A source for Baer's DOME COOKBOOK, as well as BUCKYWORKS and other geometry-related titles is- www.teachnet.com/winkworks Coming soon to winkworks - used books & ZOMETOOL ! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:19:30 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bill paton Organization: bp ent. Subject: Paris geodome I just came back from Paris and in the science centre at the PLACE DE LA VILLETTE there is a beautiful mirrored Geodesic dome made entirely of mirrored glass. It has a framing made entirely of triangles and is aproximately 12 meters (35 feet) in diameter. It is absolutely gorgeous. The entire science museum seems much in lines with Bucky's intents. Bill paton, solutioneer -- Bill Paton --Solutioneer bpaton@inforamp.net THE DIRECTOR'S TEMPLATE http://www.inforamp.net/~bpaton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:43:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: DOME STRESS Comments: To: ega@fastlane.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ernie, What section were you looking in? The Master Index? I can't seem to find what you're referring to. Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Ernie Aiken > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: Dome Stress > Date: Thursday, June 12, 1997 11:11 PM > > Hi. Where do I find Appendix 9.0 on Dome Stress Analysis? Do you know of > anything on domes and snow loads? Thanks, Ernie Aiken > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:45:15 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: Pacific Puzzle Company is for sale Comments: cc: DOMES _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Ian Woofenden > To: Recipient list suppressed > Subject: Pacific Puzzle Company is for sale > Date: Friday, June 13, 1997 10:04 AM > > > Friends, > > We're ready to sell our production craft business. > > Can you help us find someone brave enough to take this on? > > Please see for details. > > I'd appreciate any help you can offer in finding the right person or family. > > Thanks, > > Ian > > > ======================================================== > Pacific Puzzle Company > Handcrafting Hardwood Map & Specialty Puzzles since 1984 > PO Box 1001 Anacortes, WA 98221 360-293-7034 800-467-0242 > ppc@pacificpuzzle.com > ========================================================= > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:13:23 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Paris geodome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Is the "PLACE DE LA VILLETTE" dome located at a different institution than the GEODE dome at the "Cite des Sciences et de l'Industrie"? (http://www.paris.org). Does the science center have a web address? **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: bill paton > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Paris geodome > Date: Friday, June 13, 1997 06:19 AM > > I just came back from Paris and in the science centre at the PLACE DE LA > VILLETTE there is a beautiful mirrored Geodesic dome made entirely of > mirrored glass. It has a framing made entirely of triangles and is > aproximately 12 meters (35 feet) in diameter. It is absolutely gorgeous. > The entire science museum seems much in lines with Bucky's intents. > > Bill paton, solutioneer > > -- > Bill Paton --Solutioneer > bpaton@inforamp.net > THE DIRECTOR'S TEMPLATE > http://www.inforamp.net/~bpaton > .- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:01:28 GMT Reply-To: meron@cars3.uchicago.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: meron@CARS3.UCHICAGO.EDU Organization: CARS, U. of Chicago, Chicago IL 60637 Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In article <5nqhkg$s28$1@inf6serv.rug.ac.be>, fidevos@eduserv1.rug.ac.be (Filip De Vos) writes: > >It is also about directing the existing science and technology to ends we >may see as beneficial, instead of say, producing B-2 bombers. Oh, that's not a new idea. The Western democracies already embraced it after WWI, with spectacular results :-) Mati Meron | "When you argue with a fool, meron@cars.uchicago.edu | chances are he is doing just the same" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:28:20 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Menu user Organization: University Library Utrecht Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit there are 600 million cars in the world, 125 of them in the quadro world. U.S depend on outside oil since 1965, now it sucks 4 to 6 million a day. it is known that it dependce on 60 strategic metals since after the WWII. not to forget coffee, amonia- is tea included. how about exotic fruits- somthin need to be studied if you want to know how much america depends on the world. not the least of-if you stoo the oil coming to you, you will find that your industry have no power to keep the engins going. not to forget the tropical forst for medicinal plants. if you use the same administration you are going to go out of this stupidity in very long time. if on the other hand you make a revoultion in administration and connect critical areas- agreeing on set of manuarability and some serious eagerness- such as logistics and the industry, then i think it would take shorter time perhaps 10 years. why administration is in the way, becuse they dont look directly at the problem, and also have a set of dogmas that ozes with stagnation and irrelavant garbage. china have 50 million people in working administration, Holland have 400,000 only working with the goverment. constant paper and time wasted. there are serious events that need to be linked, such as forest statistics and oil and the statistic of false employment, and work force that only contribute control-which means that they are in the way. other connection of critical mass, curve, and logical meaning in terms of the whole that need to be diagramed and linked. i am not very learned, but for those who red little out of their field know what i am talking about. the meeting of europeans in amesterdam this week i think- they are building 90 meter or somthing table so that they can sit and talk. they'v been talking since 1970, while the homless get more pathologically sik. and as they say in the news paper about Blair"they smiled, and smiled, and smiled". in the ww2, america mobolized everything- i red that 1000 smart oil men strategized the whole seen. it went perfect including the 2,400 miles X double of oil from texas, approximatly. in short, U.S was nothing befor the war, call it the age of big radios, to become i million times richer. and the fact is that the wealth have not been digested well, so it became a curse- a shadow of images americans keep chasing and they know in their hearts that they are more empty than the consense time befor the war- time of Esinhor- who landed in the red sea with war ship inviting the king with his tent to keep the meddling that america is use to(1943). Xray (between)led to the atomic accelerater, and now the research is mostly in the invisible, most of the sociey is fixed to visibility and idiocy. societ is fixed, while it should be moble- we are not in the age of horses anymore. we spent billion on vanity, and cant make step toward agreening about what can be doen. we like nonsense, and economic curves based on abolute lines with thier million inertia. to show you the magnitutde of wealth, when U.S collected its taxes in the civil war, which was some 60 million the president said that it was easier to collect than to spent. about 100 million dollars end of the century, was the gnp of U.S, in 1995 i think is around 7 trillion. most of the cuntry was prary and farm land, and farmer constituted 95%, latest figurs(1996) put the number to 1%. 5% of the cars move at a particular moment, while 95% stay put. with all these cars, hardly anybody get where they want with out waiting and distress-where is ergonommics. specialy those who dont have a car- they wait every day and get psychologicaly ill and agressive toward the others. it is true that specialization make blind, it is imprtant the intricate of discovers is extensive and fantastic. but it is time to start general and go specific or specialized. most of all, the children are totaly ignored and no revolution that took the latest finding in nurological finding, to help revolutionize education. you give your children to your local scholl (19 century abc, assymbly style education) with their extrem intelgence-by the way nature resistant factor of disaster in loosening the bolts of children genious is quite high. it takes a lot of years to muddle their heads and confuse them and their for lose their balance and intnroconective activity. what you get back is dull 12 year old, who is redy to go to business or law- the highest % of 107 million people who make 120,000 or more and therfor more go to law and business even though very few get that high income. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 00:08:05 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Paris geodome Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bpaton@inforamp.net. (bill paton) wrote: >I just came back from Paris and in the science centre at the PLACE DE LA >VILLETTE there is a beautiful mirrored Geodesic dome made entirely of >mirrored glass. It has a framing made entirely of triangles and is >aproximately 12 meters (35 feet) in diameter. It is absolutely gorgeous. >The entire science museum seems much in lines with Bucky's intents. > >Bill paton, solutioneer > >-- Did you take any photographs? You don't need anyone's permission to put your own photos on the web. It'd be cool to have this one added. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:02:04 -0600 Reply-To: bizopp@direclynx.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bizopp@DIRECLYNX.NET Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service Subject: Monolithic dome equiptment I am seeking new or used foam spraying and shotcrete application equiptment for use in monolithic dome structure construction. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Vince -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:35:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: Amazon.com lowers prices MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: lower-prices@amazon.com > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: Amazon.com lowers prices > Date: Saturday, June 14, 1997 10:00 AM > > June 10, 1997 > > Dear Amazon.com customer, > > Effective immediately, we have significantly lowered our prices and > now offer you the lowest everyday book prices anywhere -- online or > off. Now, in addition to saving 40% on Editors' Picks, you'll also > find deep discounts on more than 400,000 titles. You'll save: > > -- 30% on every hardcover (typical savings: $8.00 per book) > -- 20% on every paperback (typical savings: $3.00 per book) > > We've also added an exciting new feature that recommends books > purchased by other customers who share your taste. For example, > if you enjoyed Into Thin Air, just go to the book's information > page. We list the three most popular books purchased by other > Amazon.com customers who bought Into Thin Air. It's a great way > to get book suggestions from people who buy the types of books you > enjoy. Look for this feature on our top-selling books! > > These are the latest steps in our commitment to providing you the best > book shopping experience around, which includes offering the largest > selection, great prices, informative reviews and fast delivery. > > Thanks for being an Amazon.com customer. We hope you'll stop by for a > visit. > > Sincerely, > > Your friends at Amazon.com > > > P.S. We hope you're excited about our new discounts. If you don't want > to receive any future notices from us, send e-mail to no-news@amazon.com > > P.P.S. If you'd like to change your e-mail address or password, please > visit our website at http://www.amazon.com and follow the "Your Account" > link from our navigation bar on the left side of your screen. You'll > have the option to adjust your e-mail address or password, or view the > status of your orders. > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:47:57 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rick Bono Subject: Re: DOME STRESS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There is a paper that can be accessed at my website (http://www.cris.com/~rjbono) that deals with a stress analysis made on geodesic structures. Rick At 01:43 PM 6/13/97 -0700, you wrote: >Ernie, > >What section were you looking in? The Master Index? I can't seem to find >what you're referring to. > >Joe >**************************************** >* Joe S. Moore >* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar >* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com >* Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute >* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ >**************************************** > >---------- >> From: Ernie Aiken >> To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com >> Subject: Dome Stress >> Date: Thursday, June 12, 1997 11:11 PM >> >> Hi. Where do I find Appendix 9.0 on Dome Stress Analysis? Do you know of >> anything on domes and snow loads? Thanks, Ernie Aiken >> >> .- > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:00:05 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Subject: *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the semi-monthly "How To" file about the GEODESIC list. It has info on content and purpose of the list, as well as subscription info, posting instructions, etc. It should prove useful to new subscribers, as well as those who are unfamiliar with LISTSERV operations. This message is being posted on Sun Jun 15 00:00:03 PDT 1997. If you are tired of receiving this message twice per month, and are reading bit.listserv.geodesic through USENET news, then you can enter this subject into your KILL/SCORE file. If you're reading through email, you can set up a filter to delete the message. Both of these tricks are WELL worth learning how to do, if you don't know already. And isn't it about time to learn something new? Isn't it always? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEODESIC is a forum for the discussion of the ideas and creations relating to the work of R. Buckminster (Bucky) Fuller. 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(Can be in the same message.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe and unsubscribe.) Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 04:40:18 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Kirby on Synergetics (import from Syn-L) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Repost from Syn-L 14 June 1997 w/ some typos fixed >> = Kirby > = Don = Kirby ============ >>My sense is this operational self-consistencey is under-valued, >>because synergetics has been hitherto neglected, mainly as a >>result of specialized disciplines having no way to coordinate >>a response, other than to indefinitely 'put off' dealing with >>it (the 'manana syndrome').... >Kirby, >Still going through the mail. This comment was in response to Erickson's May >24 posting and brings up a thought. > >Fuller never finished his dream in Synergetics. He wanted to provide the >final solution to the puzzle of the universe; the dream of science. Don't we >all?! Though he made a major contribution... He got a piece of it. I would >locate his piece of the picture in the spectrum of experience as the narrow >band where the really small structures meet the really big ones. A >place the Indian pundits call the Mencrocosmos... Don -- I'm interested in your analysis of course. Mostly when people say "Fuller never finished his dream in Synergetics" I think they're expressing puzzlement over the lack of math head gizmos and think this manifests a major lack, is a sign of "incompletion", whereas I've been arguing that Synergetics, as a self-discipline, is about doing something different with langauge to work towards this goal of getting a lot of precision into the communications. We have this cultural bias against admitting 'humanities style' semantics into the inner sanctum of clear, scientific, mathematical thought, but I'd consider this more a prejudice than a well- articulated objection, a prejudice against which Synergetics itself offers rather telling countering evidence, especially in the minds of those making the time to seriously study it. A lot in Synergetics is about synchronizing terms to hit the same peaks and valleys, in alignment with their own predelictions given the surrounding language. For example, it takes little 'work' to make 'frequency' as applied to geodesic spheres in particular (and feeding into mathematical formulae thereby) also resonate with electromagnetic meanings, so that when the text shifts to consider high-to-low frequency spectra, we carry with us this image of spheres within spheres, like those Chinese ivory ball carvings, which were sometimes 3-way weave patterns -- very synergetic. Then we move to a vision of the thinking process itself, which becomes a kind of 'tuning in', with adjacent frequencies defined as 'twilight zone' relevant (we almost see how they're adding to our system) and fading off into simply 'irrelevant' both in the 'too high' and 'too low' directions. So here we've got concepts from radio, architecture, and a kind of psychological modeling of systematic thinking, all rolled into one "gestalt", wherein the same words (e.g. "frequency") do multiple duty as signifiers. This so-called "overloading" of signifiers, to where all become highly charged as metaphors, meaning so many things at once that we start losing sight of the "one literal meaning at the heart of it all" is a focus of psychology of course. Lacan wrote about the Full Word, Norman O. Brown about the polymorphic character of symbolic consciousness. Synergetics, as a work in the humanities, consists of layer upon layer of meaning, consistently articulated with an eye towards providing access to the generalized principles. The language is self-consciously metaphoric. The teaching here, I'd say, is that the core (of generalized principles) is not, in fact, a literal one. Symbolic consciousness is able to get us closer to the core precisely because its key terms are overloaded. Of course this starts to smell a lot like theology, which is why the academic west is quick to turn up its nose at synergetics -- actually the appearance of the word 'metaphysical' alone is sufficient to cause a disconnect, even though Fuller has a congent, consistent and logical way of deploying that signifier. Fortunately, the world does not depend on the tastes or prejudices of the academic west to dictate what gets to be tomorrow's core curriculum. If Synergetics isn't taken seriously at Princeton, that doesn't mean it isn't a serious subject thereby. When it comes to 'tension' versus 'compression' in Synergetics, they're always and only co-occuring. I know you've talked about tension-only structures here and maybe have some complementary concept of compression-only as well. But in Synergetics, the two are hand-in-glove. Compression is the tendency for intervals to expand, or resist further compression, while tension is the tendency for intervals to shrink, or resist further expansion. Radiation, whereby material is energetically propagated from some broadcast source to distant receivers (such as human eyes, pointed starward), is compressive, because it is an instance of nature expanding or dispersing her materials. Gravity, whereby material is collected and organized, impounded into biomass according to complicated sets of instructions encoded chemically and synergetically, is tensive, because an instance of nature cohering material, bringing it into closer proximity, sometimes in very stable holding patterns (such as atoms) which are unlikely to change much, ever. Given these very broad brush stroke meanings across the canvas, we can then fine tune as per the scale of phenomena we're talking. We can talk about decaying corpses, about growing submarine coral reefs (cay vs decay), about stars and the interplay of fusion with gravitation, their tendency to go dwarf or gigantic or nova -- or black. At each scale (or frequency), language has been doing different things with the key variables, but synergetics works for some consistency and unifying analogies across the full spectrum -- which is why its key words are "overloaded" in the psychological sense, but because geodesic, "able to handle the stress, no problem" in a design sense of the word (not really "overloaded" in other words). I think the cultural prejudice is to find such a project appealing as a kind of "physics for poets" perhaps, but to discount out of hand the possibility that any new findings of scientific interest could come out of such a project. Synergetics is of design and engineering relevance maybe (we have to see the domes and octet truss as contributions in this context, regardless of who first put their name on them). But once you scratch the surface and start doing your homework, you find that Synergetics has already criss-crossed the scientific realm in multiple directions, interconnecting points of interest, experimental results, mathematical models, in ways suggestive of an emerging curriculum, one that doesn't interfere with the serious work of scientists, but complements their work, in part by making it more accessible to people from other walks of life, with a healthy interest and curiousity and a desire to look over the shoulders of professionals. Which is not to say that Fuller's Synergetics is just a 'popularization' of something (connects back to the old 'synergetics is incomplete' stereotype). Synergetics is a new way of exploring, of thinking. It shouldn't be the only discipline one studies, but is definitely a valuable tool that should be added to the list of serious, time-worthy subjects. At least that's my reading, and I think I've done a lot of serious work to substantiate my claims. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 05:00:28 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kmetaverso Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Anyone have formula for icosa strut length? Dear All I'm building some small domes using fiberglass and wood and I was wondering if anyone had a formula for computing the strut length given sphere radius. I don't have much money but I am willing to pay for the information. Thanx in advance ;} Sincerely, Kris Metaverso kmetaverso@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:42:42 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Dymaxion Car Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's a pity really, but the Dymaxion Car was a crock from the moment it was conceived. Bucky took an aircraft configuration that was common then, and tried to develop it into a car, while waiting for the materials that would have made the flying version possible. The trouble was, that the configuration of a rear steerable wheel is inherently unstable. This coupled with the inherent "soft" pulley and cable control system, led to a vehicle that must have been terrible to drive. Talk to any pilot and it soon becomes obvious that taildraggers are "interesting" aircraft to taxi on the ground. That's why most aircraft today are tricycle undercart equipped. The steerable front wheel is inherently stable you see. So, starting with an unstable configuration, he and his group then built a number of prototypes, in an attempt to get around the basic flaw, with kludges. The addtion of a fin, to improve crosswind handling was the worst one of the lot. The fin would have made crosswind handling worse, instead of better. Somewhere along the line, someone should have looked at the basic design parameters. At the end, they did, but the equiptment was not available off the shelf, to put in steerable driven front wheels. In the later Kaiser car this was done, keeping the steerable rear wheel locked, except in tight maneuvering situations. Unfortunately, the credibility lost with the Dymaxion could not be regained and Kaiser was'nt interested. A pity really, the streamlining and lightness concepts were good, as todays developments demonstrate. Rudi Treutlein ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 11:14:21 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: RP96RP@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Where are these cars? Do any exist? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 10:56:11 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert White Organization: WebTV Subscriber Subject: Re: Anyone have formula for icosa strut length? Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Are you looking for a 2,3 or 4 frequency strut lingth calculation? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:58:50 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/LINKS/LinksTransportDymaxion.htm **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: RP96RP@AOL.COM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car > Date: Sunday, June 15, 1997 08:14 AM > > Where are these cars? Do any exist? > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 23:05:50 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Anyone have formula for icosa strut length? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kris Metaverso said: >I'm building some small domes using fiberglass and wood and I was >wondering if anyone had a formula for computing the strut length >given sphere radius. >I don't have much money but I am willing to pay for the information. There is a program that can do this for you, and it is free. Rick Bono wrote "Dome", a wonderful little program that will both create an AutoCad compatible DXF/DWG file, and create a spreadsheet-ready file of strut data. The only problem is that the lengths given presume that a dome is built from a set of "ideal lines" (rather than physical struts) that have no width, breadth, or connectors. One must compensate for such things, of course. Society is no longer defined by meeting needs, but instead by creating "wants". james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:58:29 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Organization: ClariNet Communications Subject: Re: Anyone have formula for icosa strut length? kmetaverso@aol.com (Kmetaverso) writes: > > Dear All > > I'm building some small domes using fiberglass and wood and I was > wondering > if anyone had a formula for computing the strut length given sphere > radius. > > I don't have much money but I am willing to pay for the information. > > Thanx in advance ;} > > Sincerely, Kris Metaverso > kmetaverso@aol.com > > I doubt you'd have to pay anyone on this list for dome calculations. :-) Might want to check out Rick Bono's DOME program. It'll cough up more calculations than you can shake a strut at... Pat --------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Salsbury ClariNet Communications Corp. patrick@clari.net | 408-296-0366 x131 | http://www.clari.net/~patrick/ Many years ago, I first drank from the Well of Knowledge. Now, I maintain the pumps on that Well, so that others may also quench their thirst. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:56:43 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Organization: ClariNet Communications Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car "R.K. Treutlein" writes: > > It's a pity really, but the Dymaxion Car was a crock from the moment it was > conceived. > Bucky took an aircraft configuration that was common then, and tried to > develop it into a car, while waiting for the materials that would have made > the flying version possible. The trouble was, that the configuration of a > rear steerable wheel is inherently unstable. This coupled with the inherent > "soft" pulley and cable control system, led to a vehicle that must have > been terrible to drive. > Rudi Treutlein Ok, I'll bite. Can you explain how one of the Dymaxion cars managed to get over 300,000 miles logged on it, then? Seems like it'd have to be at least a LITTLE bit stable for that... Pat --------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick Salsbury ClariNet Communications Corp. patrick@clari.net | 408-296-0366 x131 | http://www.clari.net/~patrick/ Many years ago, I first drank from the Well of Knowledge. Now, I maintain the pumps on that Well, so that others may also quench their thirst. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:44:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: The Lorax Organization: pcOnline Internet Services Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970615194242.006a4824@tpgi.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 15 Jun 1997, R.K. Treutlein wrote: > Bucky took an aircraft configuration that was common then, and tried to > develop it into a car, while waiting for the materials that would have made > the flying version possible. The trouble was, that the configuration of a > rear steerable wheel is inherently unstable. This coupled with the inherent > "soft" pulley and cable control system, led to a vehicle that must have > been terrible to drive. Talk to any pilot and it soon becomes obvious that > taildraggers are "interesting" aircraft to taxi on the ground. That's why > most aircraft today are tricycle undercart equipped. The steerable front > wheel is inherently stable you see. I have been looking at building my own experimental car with a low hp motor. Of course I've examined the Dymaxion car and had myself wondered about the stability of the rear steering wheel. In my tests with models it never seemed to work very well, tending to roll over easily when making a turn at even moderate speeds. There are two other configurations of a three wheel car that seem more stable: #1 Two rear driving wheels with one steerable front wheel. or #2 One rear drive wheel with two steerable front wheels. What are your opinions on these? Naturally with any three point balance the mass of the load has to be kept inside the triangle created by the three points, and the closer the center of gravity is to the center of the triangle the better but varying loads will effect this. St. Paul, Minnesota "Innovation and invention are what happen when someone makes a conscious effort to ignore accepted limits." -- Homesteader -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:09:37 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car In-Reply-To: (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu) Back in the 60's there was a popular 4-wheel car in Germany called (I think) the Heinkle. This had two small rear wheels bound close together in the rear with two steerable wheels on either side at the front. As far as I remember, the vehicle only sat two people, side by side, who entered the car by opening the whole front end. There was also a much smaller three-wheel car shaped like a hammerhead shark, although this was a one-seater and more like a covered motorcycle than a car. Again, the two front wheels did the steering. I don't remember seeing one attempt it, but it strikes me now that such a car would have a devil of a time parallel parking. Another fuzzy memory: In the stability tests of the Dymaxion, wasn't it found to be very stable? I remember reading that the infamous fish-tailing accident occured because of unintentional harrasment by another driver keen to get a closer look at the odd craft. Lastly, a question for the aeronautically versed: Is there some reason why today's MiniVan looks like a Dymaxion going backwards? (esp Ford's) Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN -------------------------------------- Innovation is hard to schedule ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:37:01 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Brant Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I recently discovered a 3-wheeled vehicle now for sale that you all might find interesting. It's called the Sparrow. It's battery powered, for urban use only, and - because of its size - is classified as a motorcycle (for insurance purposes). (It only seats one.) The two front wheels stear, the back wheel does not. It is being manufactured in Hollister, California. More info is available at http://www.ev-sparrow.com - Steve Steven G. Brant, President Trimtab Management Systems "Charting new routes to the 21st Century" 81 Ocean Parkway, Suite 3H, Brooklyn, NY 11218-1754 USA (718) 972-0949 (voice) (718) 972-3465 (fax) sbrant@trimtab.com http://www.trimtab.com -------------------------------------------------- "Only integrity is going to count..." - R. Buckminster Fuller -------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:27:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >"R.K. Treutlein" writes: > >> >> It's a pity really, but the Dymaxion Car was a crock from the moment it was >> conceived. Bucky took an aircraft configuration that was common then, and >> tried to develop it into a car, while waiting for the materials that would >> have made the flying version possible. The trouble was, that the configuration >> of a rear steerable wheel is inherently unstable. This coupled with the inherent >> "soft" pulley and cable control system, led to a vehicle that must have >> been terrible to drive. >> Rudi Treutlein The rear wheel steering sounds like it was difficult to get used to, even with the addition of springs to indicate 'straight' and foilers to keep the driver from over-angling the wheel. Baldwin suggests that modern ergonomics (a discipline yet to be invented at the time) would have solved these problems -- but that's neither here nor there as far as the historical record is concerned. Probably with computer controls, you could get a steering wheel operated as per usual to deliver the usual results, even if steering a single wheel from the rear (avionics has given pilots similar computer-mediated cockpit controls). Then you could have some special 'mode' (a switch) that gave you added degrees of freedom when it came to tight situations and non-traditional maneuvers at low speeds. What I'd like to know is who is the politician whose car rammed the Dymaxion and killed the passengers? We keep hearing about that, in the context of its putting Bucky out of business (though that might have happened anyway, given the highly prototypical nature of his designs) but the politician's name is never shared. Certainly there must be court records, for manslaughter or something. Now there's a job for someone into trivial pursuits. BTW, there's a picture I snapped of a prototype now at some car museum in Reno, but trucked (this version doesn't drive on its own, nor have any internal seats) to San Diego for the Bucky's 100th birthday. http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/images/conf_06.gif J. Baldwin's 'BuckyWorks' has the best pix. Kirby > Ok, I'll bite. Can you explain how one of the Dymaxion cars managed to >get over 300,000 miles logged on it, then? Seems like it'd have to be at least >a LITTLE bit stable for that... > >Pat ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:15:13 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "C. J. Monahan" Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Where are these cars? Do any exist? The National Automobile Museum, Lake and Mill Street, Reno, NV (702) 333-9300 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:52:49 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kmetaverso Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Building spherical, not faceted icosa domes I'm making some small domes for kids and dogs to play in. These will be fiberglassed into existing ring walls, and I'm putting on a fake stone texture. I'm using a scroll saw to cut wooden ribs and a spherical ballon to support the fiberglass while it dries. The wooden ribs are there mainly for looks, they'll just be glued to the fiberglass, on the outside, but I'm trying to calculate how long to cut the ribs. I tried one already using an arc length calculated from a pentagon inscribed to a 30-inch circle (the ballon is 30 inches), but it didn't look right when I did a mockup on the ballon. Cordially, Kris Metaverso ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 21:55:46 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kmetaverso Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Baseball pattern for sewing up a sphere? Does anyone have a .DXF drawing of the pattern used to sew the skin onto a baseball, or even something I could scan? I remember Bucky Fuller talking about it in Synergetics, but I just want to experiment with sewing skins onto spheres. Best regards, Kris Metaverso ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:15:33 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit R.K. Treutlein wrote: > > There's a very simple answer to the starving millions. Ignore them and they > will go away. In case some of them have enough equiptment, stockpile some > weaponry, to blow them away if they come calling. > > This approach is probably kinder than feeding the millions today, so that > they will become billions in the not so distant future. > > Of course, there's a price to pay. > > Rudi Treutlein, > who has been hungry in his day, but not that hungry Hey Rudi, If you've followed this thread all the way, you may recall early in it I quoted "Pink Floyd" - I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off my stack. Your view appalls me - there's something worse than being hungry - it's seeing your child starve -and being powerless to do anything anout it. Your suggested act of kindness is the same "kindness" applied by the Nazis, Pol Pot and the Australians with their systematic extermination of the aboriginals earlier this century. Perhaps one one day a predator will be kind to you. John Rich ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:18:19 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J.D.Hoyland wrote: > (By the way what has this to do with science and the internet?) Isn't it wonderful where these threads take us. It shows that despite our interest in geodesics we are alive elsewhere - and we get to discover wonderful terms like "Kleptocracies". Regards John Rich ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 23:11:08 +0000 Reply-To: cas1276@madison.tec.wi.us Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chuck Stoffregen Organization: Madison Area Technical College Subject: Synergetic modeling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It would be helpful to understand Synergetics if there were an animated version of the assembly/disassembly of the different A and B modules. It should help people understand Close packing of spheres, mites, sites and bites. With this kind of illustration more people could become familiar with Bucky' ideas. I lack the time and talent. Isn't there a poster set illustrating these, I think that they were illustrated in Synergetics 2. Does anyone know where I could get a set? Chuck Stoffregen cas1276@madison.tec.wi.us ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:46:52 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Cliff Steer Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Thew 4 wheel car was an Isetta - the front door opened with the steering wheel attached, there was a bench seat and 2 people could sit on it. It was very small, had a very tight turning radius and was a snap to parallel park - great gas mileage too - We had on in the Ohio up until about 1964 or so - it was a hoot going to shopping centers - my whole family [3 tall people and one big dog] and getting in and out - once somebody offered us a can opener Regards Cliff & Ann Kaos & Havoc Anarchy rules -----Original Message----- From: Gary Lawrence Murphy [SMTP:garym@MAYA.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] Sent: Monday, June 16, 1997 10:10 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Back in the 60's there was a popular 4-wheel car in Germany called (I think) the Heinkle. This had two small rear wheels bound close together in the rear with two steerable wheels on either side at the front. As far as I remember, the vehicle only sat two people, side by side, who entered the car by opening the whole front end. There was also a much smaller three-wheel car shaped like a hammerhead shark, although this was a one-seater and more like a covered motorcycle than a car. Again, the two front wheels did the steering. I don't remember seeing one attempt it, but it strikes me now that such a car would have a devil of a time parallel parking. Another fuzzy memory: In the stability tests of the Dymaxion, wasn't it found to be very stable? I remember reading that the infamous fish-tailing accident occured because of unintentional harrasment by another driver keen to get a closer look at the odd craft. Lastly, a question for the aeronautically versed: Is there some reason why today's MiniVan looks like a Dymaxion going backwards? (esp Ford's) Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN -------------------------------------- Innovation is hard to schedule begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B0*`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 (```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````=@`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````$QI`/9?`0```#8```!,:7-T(&9O`' ``0```!$```!213H@1'EM87AI;VX@0V%R``````(!<0`!````%@`` M``&\>J^/I/NX._/F?1'0JTI$15-4`````!X`'@P!````!0```%--5% ````` M'@`?# $````.````8W-T965R0&%E:2YC80````,`!A#S,7R'`P`'$'H&```> M``@0`0```&4```!42$57-%=(145,0T%25T%304Y)4T545$$M5$A%1E)/3E1$ M3T]23U!%3D5$5TE42%1(15-4145224Y'5TA%14Q!5%1!0TA%1"Q42$5215=! 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M?UBP7(,`D $`'?$;&%D10?\$("\0!< :,5?0"7 '@ ;0_P20'H,U9")@*>!; MX!M `B!_+U$^\"016>$@=!Z 8"-B_R*18#$>@"ZQ7Z N`AQ18L?_&>)E<1P2 M+.,;,2ZU&W,)\/QD+C5J&1$>UEL`)B :X/YM%\ ?H2+"7*$;( G15:GO+5 E MX!Q1."!K,%$U9!$`^FT'@'(9(",Q;2$F\!Z _P= &R (8"/P5^($(!\$,+'^ M+1_"7*$@$@1@'M%MDC5D?32A;R)A'%$$8"80.G!Y[V.2&R #D32B@UG#&V1:RB309J,=!VE[\U?0&\!N)P5 8B8?L5BQ?QV ,+(>`6(P!3$< MD!Z 8G\JX2%1'1 %$&VP)\$;0&[\;WV%K8G0S&7#?(/,1`")@'S$! M`'8#$3/P_Q\Q(]!\`29+=YXXD"R07))P9G5Z>B*08D$%L'G_3V :@"ET'1 ! MH ,0') CL;T'D'0$('[Q&R)/ABPU9/\:(7C2(5$"$%NB)A$?8")5^P&1(+ _ M@K%Y""=1)-!H$W]@=#5D"X O$0A@87$$`&C>+0&0@X$=<0#08V Q&Y']. D\&.Q_SA0*E +@!T@*F$"( = ;?9^"S$8E-1:QH@-X$_-60H M!Y E\$;U!;!D5" I-6I#KT2R&O&Z5!FP94^ )= GX&,N0H57L#4K$"DT,C)! M<%0Q-1%@9J"C.J#R,OT!P#,U91A2(0`GT(KA)A#3144KD',N`B N&> V0CK1-6X* M@ 4500"U```#`! 0``````,`$1 ``````P" $/____] ```$. "" &``````# ````````1@`````VA0```0````$````````` M'@!$@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````-X4```$````!`````````!X`18 ( M( 8``````, ```````!&`````#B%```!`````0`````````>`#T``0````4` 4``!213H@``````,`#33]-P``>L&% ` end ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:13:42 -0700 Reply-To: alwilson@pacifier.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Wilson Organization: Pacifier Online Data Service, Vancouver, Wa. ((360) 693-0325) Subject: Re: Monolithic dome equiptment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit bizopp@direclynx.net wrote: > > I am seeking new or used foam spraying and shotcrete application > equiptment for use in monolithic dome structure construction. > Any help is appreciated. > > Thanks in advance. > > Vince ------------ I know that below grade swiming pools have typically been cast with shotcrete guns. That might be a first piont of investigation. Also hear the the application can be a real bitch, more specifically, the agregate has a tendence to bounce off of the form. That might not be a problem a softer form like foam or a pneumatic baloon. Best of luck... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:40:45 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: The Lorax Organization: pcOnline Internet Services Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car In-Reply-To: <199706161637.JAA28799@m4.sprynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Steve Brant wrote: > I recently discovered a 3-wheeled vehicle now for sale that you all might > find interesting. It's called the Sparrow. It's battery powered, for > urban use only, and - because of its size - is classified as a motorcycle > (for insurance purposes). (It only seats one.) Size may have nothing at all to do with it. I don't know about other states but here in Minnesota the only criteria is number of wheels. If it has four wheels its a car, more than four wheels it's a truck, and two or three wheels it's a motorcycle. Seriously you could have a 30' long vehicle with a gross weight of three tons and if it only had three wheels Minnesota would license it as a motorcycle. St. Paul, Minnesota "Innovation and invention are what happen when someone makes a conscious effort to ignore accepted limits." -- Homesteader -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:55:10 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Conroy Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 R.K., You wrote: << The trouble was, that the configuration >> of a rear steerable wheel is inherently unstable. This coupled with th= e inherent >> "soft" pulley and cable control system, led to a vehicle that must hav= e >> been terrible to drive.>> PBS television had one of its' normal science programs last week with a great demonstration on angular momentum. It used a simple bicycle to sho= w how angular momentum kept a moving bicycle erect when it was traveling foward but that it worked against a bicycle when ever it moved backwards such as would be the case of any rear wheel drive vehicle. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:20:20 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Post Doctoral Research Comments: To: hernan casakin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr. Casakin, I am just one retired individual doing my thing from my den. I can't even afford to hire myself. However, if you are interested in the design philosophy and the resulting designs of R.Buckminster Fuller, you will find many useful links and references at my web site below. Thanks for inquiring, Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: hernan casakin > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: Post Doctoral Research > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 04:02 AM > > To: BUCKMINSTER FULLER VIRTUAL INSTITUTE > > My name is Hernan Casakin, I am an architect and a Ph.D. student at the > Technion-Israel Institute of Technology. I am currently doing research as > well as teaching a design studio in the Faculty of Architecture and Town > Planning. > > Because I am close to finishing my Ph.D dissertation, which is planned to > be ready in September 1997, I have started to look for a Post Doctoral > Research Position. I would like to contact you regarding the possibility > of continuing with my studies . > (snip) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:33:21 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: SCIENTIFICALLY DESIGNED HOUSING Comments: To: huck@suck.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sir, You may want to review R.Buckminster Fuller's final design for a scientifically designed single family residence; please see my web page under "Selected Ideas/Icosahedra/housing". Sincerely, Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 08:05:43 -0700 Reply-To: alwilson@pacifier.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Wilson Organization: Pacifier Online Data Service, Vancouver, Wa. ((360) 693-0325) Subject: Re: Monolithic dome equiptment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i Vince, > I am seeking new or used foam spraying and shotcrete application > equiptment for use in monolithic dome structure construction. > Any help is appreciated. Have you talked with Monolithic Constructors about this? We have pumps and can get you in touch with foam contractors or equipment manufacturers. Please give us a call. Tel: 972-483-7423 Fax: 972-483-6662 E-Mail: mail@monolithicdome.com http://www.monolithicdome.com Thanks, David South, Jr. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:31:44 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: Refried Domes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit R.K. Treutlein wrote: > It's not that somebody created a market for 4x8s, it's just that squared up > timber is traditional, right back to lord knows when. Probably when people > first started splitting timber. The whole lumber industry is set up on > square corners. I believe that the reason everything is rectangular and/or square is because we, as human beings can only think in two dimensions. Given the choice between three things, we eliminate one and then choose between the remaining two. This I think is something to do with on/off switches in our brains -a bit like a computer. Comprehending 3-D is hard - it's trained into pilots - with me erecting domes it is never logic which tells me if I push there that other point will move out -it's intuitive - learnt from experience. This whole 2-D, on/off switch thing is reflected in the shapes we build -boxes, rectangles etc. I'd really like to hear other views on this. Regards John Rich ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:04:29 -0700 Reply-To: tydad@bellsouth.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "j. rick kauffman" Organization: Home-WERKS Subject: Re: Anyone have formula for icosa strut length? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrick Salsbury wrote: > > kmetaverso@aol.com (Kmetaverso) writes: > > > > > Dear All > > > > I'm building some small domes using fiberglass and wood and I was > > wondering > > if anyone had a formula for computing the strut length given sphere > > radius. > > > > I don't have much money but I am willing to pay for the information. > > > > Thanx in advance ;} > > > > Sincerely, Kris Metaverso > > kmetaverso@aol.com > > > > > I doubt you'd have to pay anyone on this list for dome > calculations. :-) Might want to check out Rick Bono's DOME program. It'll > cough up more calculations than you can shake a strut at... > > Pat Super..... but where does one acquire this programme? Tydad@bellsouth.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 20:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harmon Seaver Organization: Maddog Press Subject: Re: Refried Domes Comments: To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John William Rich wrote: > I believe that the reason everything is rectangular and/or square is > because we, as human beings can only think in two dimensions. Given No, that's just Euro-centric thinking. Or you might call it "block-head" thinking. Most of the world's populations build round houses, not square, or did, at least, before the missionaries and other euro-centrics got to them. Euro-thought is very two dimensional, or dualistic, "square", and non-imaginative. That's why euro-philosophies are so lame. Harmon Seaver hseaver@zebra.net http://www.zebra.net/~hseaver ======================================================================= All is impermanent, but this too shall pass away, and the way of the Samurai is death -- so speak your mind now, or forever hold your peace. ======================================================================= Copyright, Harmon F. Seaver, 1997. License to distribute this post is available to Microsoft for US$1,000 per instance, or local equivalent. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:22:56 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: Geodesics NZ Subject: Re: Anyone have formula for icosa strut length? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit j. rick kauffman wrote: > > Super..... but where does one acquire this programme? Visit Rick Bon's web site at http://www.cris.com/~rjbono/index.html Download it for free. Unzip it using PKUNZIP. Read the readme file and follow the instructions. It is a very useful programme, quick, simple, great stuff. You can also download other free-ware Rick mentions in his readme file. Regards John Rich ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 18:41:05 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert White Organization: WebTV Subscriber Subject: Geodesic Struts Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I'm planning a 44' 3V Icosa Alternate Dome Home. I was wondering if anyone has any input regarding the cunstruction of hubs. Robert White ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:03:33 -0700 Reply-To: alwilson@pacifier.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Andy Wilson Subject: Square vs. Round MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Being a new member to this group, let me first say hello to all. Secondly, this idea about where we got the idea that right angles were better than an obtuse or acute angle (or no angle, for that matter) is being rationalized too much. Since 3d angles are only defined by planes, I was trying to think about how the concept of a plane came to the human mind. When you swing your arm, unless you make a concerted effort, it will swing in a plane. If we take this one step (or two) further, what happens if you swing something sharp, like an axe or a knife? A plane. If I split a piece of wood, the result of a good strike is two equal pieces with a plane starting a my point of impact. Being human, I enjoy exercising such power, and will challenge myself to split the wood better every time. The first challenge of splitting a half round piece would be to create quarter rounds, equal of course. This are simply my random musings about what might have happened. It tells us nothing about the "real" history of how we came to think what we curently think. The angle, the shape edge, the cube may represent a degree of perfection. It certainly take effort to produce such an edge, an angle. The circle, or even better, the Sphere, entails an equal amount of effort to produce. But it too symbolizes a degree of perfection. Is it a mind-fuck of Zen, Tao and eternity? Being humans, we are precluded from "knowing" the right answer. "On his way back from the K'un-lun Moutains, the Yelow Emporer lost the dark pearl of Tao. He sent Knowledge to find it, but Knowledge was unable to understand it. He sent Distant Vision, but Distant Vision was unable to see it. He sent Eloquence, but Eloquence was unable to describe it... Finally, he sent Empty Mind, and Empty Mind came back with the pearl." This represents the fact that we are really not part of "nature" anymore. We can't summon the cosmic path with our empty mind because we haven't one. -- Content to second guess... Andy Wilson - alwilson@pacifier.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:38:44 -0700 Reply-To: oregon@ordata.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc. Subject: Re: Geodesic Struts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Build panels, make your life easier. Robert White wrote: > > I'm planning a 44' 3V Icosa Alternate Dome Home. I was wondering if > anyone has any input regarding the cunstruction of hubs. > > Robert White -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:08:36 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Johnson Organization: Natural Spaces Domes Subject: Re: Geodesic Struts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert White wrote: > > I'm planning a 44' 3V Icosa Alternate Dome Home. I was wondering if > anyone has any input regarding the cunstruction of hubs. > Robert If you are looking to fabricate your own hub system, I would suggest looking at Domebook 2 - if you can find a copy (usually in the library). If you can't, we will send you some information on owner built hub systems. You might consider a 4v Icosa at 44' diam - the struts and panels would be easier to handle and the loads on an owner built hub would be a lot less. However, you would have 91 hub units in a 4v half dome compared to 61 hub units in a 3v high profile dome. We do sell our patented dome connection hardware by itself for owner-builders. Our connection system works for one frequency thru six frequency icosa or octahedral based domes. We would be happy to send you our catalog. Our web site is www.naturalspacesdomes.com and there is a picture of our hub system. Dennis Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 19:36:21 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:56 15/06/97 -0700, you wrote: >"R.K. Treutlein" writes: > >> >> It's a pity really, but the Dymaxion Car was a crock from the moment it was >> conceived. >> Bucky took an aircraft configuration that was common then, and tried to >> develop it into a car, while waiting for the materials that would have made >> the flying version possible. The trouble was, that the configuration of a >> rear steerable wheel is inherently unstable. This coupled with the inherent >> "soft" pulley and cable control system, led to a vehicle that must have >> been terrible to drive. >> Rudi Treutlein > > Ok, I'll bite. Can you explain how one of the Dymaxion cars managed to >get over 300,000 miles logged on it, then? Seems like it'd have to be at least >a LITTLE bit stable for that... The owner was Leopold Stokowski, the famous conductor/musician. Perhaps he had the necessary manual dexterity and masochystic attitude to allow him to overcome the shortcomings. All I can say is, my hat is off to him for this feat. I should point out that today, keen pilots are actually converting tricycle under carriage aircraft to taildraggers, and paying good money to do it, because they enjoy the challenge of groundhandling one of them elegantly. I've flown a taildragger aircraft for a couple of years, and never got past mediocre in the groundhandling department, but then I'm a lousy musican as well. The trouble is, once you take away the rearwheel steering, the whole thing collapses into a pile of elegant looking rubbish. The vehicle needed a steerable front drive system, which was just not available off the shelf just then. Even today, you would likely have to do a lot of minor engineering to make it work, even though steerable driving axles are available, especially if you want to maintain the axle-gearbox-engine configuration. A frontwheel drive module from an existing car would leave you with CofG problem. Rudi T. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:55:23 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Geodesic Struts Comments: cc: Dennis Johnson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis, Glad to see you guys now have a web page! I added "http://" to your web address so that it would be hot. Now, all a person has to do is click on it and go directly to your site. (See in your quoted message below). Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Dennis Johnson > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Geodesic Struts > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 1997 10:08 AM > > Robert White wrote: > > > > I'm planning a 44' 3V Icosa Alternate Dome Home. I was wondering if > > anyone has any input regarding the cunstruction of hubs. > > > > Robert > > If you are looking to fabricate your own hub system, I would suggest looking > at Domebook 2 - if you can find a copy (usually in the library). If you can't, > we will send you some information on owner built hub systems. > > You might consider a 4v Icosa at 44' diam - the struts and panels would > be easier to handle and the loads on an owner built hub would be a lot > less. However, you would have 91 hub units in a 4v half dome compared > to 61 hub units in a 3v high profile dome. > > We do sell our patented dome connection hardware by itself for owner-builders. > Our connection system works for one frequency thru six frequency icosa or > octahedral based domes. We would be happy to send you our catalog. Our > web site is http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com and there is a picture of our hub > system. > > > Dennis Johnson > .- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:57:33 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Handling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" R.K. Treutlein said: >>> It's a pity really, but the Dymaxion Car was a crock from the moment it was >>> conceived... >>> ...The trouble was, that the configuration of a rear steerable wheel is >>> inherently unstable. This coupled with the inherent "soft" pulley and >>> cable control system, led to a vehicle that must have been terrible to >>> drive. Someone else said: >> Ok, I'll bite. Can you explain how one of the Dymaxion cars >> managed to get over 300,000 miles logged on it, then? Perhaps this was around-town miles, and miles to the many PR events? Heck, I put some serious miles on a 1952 MG TD, but I would not trust it to move me around at anything over 50 Mph, simply due to the fact that one does not have the control that one would have over a 1963 Jag XKE (or, for that matter nearly ANY other car!) I would think that the Dymaxion car would stand up well against a number of cars that went into actual mass production, such as: a) Any Hundai (They just fall apart in your driveway!) b) The GEO Tracker (Very unstable) c) The original Toyota Mini-Van (High center of gravity) d) Any car made by the French e) Most cars made by the Italians As for the cable-based steering, I have seen cars with power steering (any Cadillac, for example) that are so sloppy that one must start a turn half a block before one wishes to turn. Somehow, people buy these cars. Don't worry about "doing things right", focus on "doing the Right Thing". james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 21:22:27 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Handling In-Reply-To: <199706191500.PAA01067@virtuous.inmind.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:57 19/06/97 +0000, you wrote: > R.K. Treutlein said: > >>>> It's a pity really, but the Dymaxion Car was a crock from the moment it was >>>> conceived... > >>>> ...The trouble was, that the configuration of a rear steerable wheel is >>>> inherently unstable. This coupled with the inherent "soft" pulley and >>>> cable control system, led to a vehicle that must have been terrible to >>>> drive. > > As for the cable-based steering, I have seen cars with > power steering (any Cadillac, for example) that are so > sloppy that one must start a turn half a block before > one wishes to turn. Somehow, people buy these cars. Yeah, right, but they don't have positive feedback in their steering, the Dymaxion did. > >Don't worry about "doing things right", focus on "doing the Right Thing". > >james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com Now that's a nice philosophy. Doesn't matter if you're wrong. so long as you're wrong for the right reason. Rudi T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:05:23 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Handling In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970620212227.006e061c@tpgi.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:22 PM 6/20/97 +1000, you wrote: > >Now that's a nice philosophy. Doesn't matter if you're wrong. so long as >you're wrong for the right reason. > > Rudi T. Dear Rudi, Your use of the word "wrong" reminds me of RBF's tirade against the use of "up" and "down". Right and wrong are purely subjective. What's right for you may be wrong for another. As to steering from the rear, try this exercise: Take your car to a large parking lot late at night. In reverse gear, accelerate to about 20 or 25 mph, then turn the steering wheel just a little bit. If you find you can steer the car comfortably, well the dymaxion car design works. My guess is that the geometry and momemtum will leave you a little breathless. This is not wrong.........or right. Warm regards, Jim Maharaj James McCaig Sufi Center of Washington jmccaig@worldweb.net Sufi Center Bookstore http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 08:13:32 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Philosophy(?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One of my .sigs says: >>Don't worry about "doing things right", focus on "doing the Right Thing". >> >>james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com R.K. Treutlein offered the opinion: >Now that's a nice philosophy. Doesn't matter if you're wrong. so long as >you're wrong for the right reason. This is a common reaction from people who do not think long and hard about what they are doing, why they are doing it (and if it is "The Right Thing" at all), but jump right into insuring that the details are perfect. Nearly anyone can do something right, so I don't need to call their attention to it. It just happens, since they are well-educated and experienced professionals. Too many folks are concerned solely with being "right" about narrower and narrower areas of specialty. It costs me serious dollars to have my folks building "perfect" things that do not satisfy the overall intent of the goal. Such items are "perfectly useless". Even when everyone is in synch and agrees on the overall intent, there are still debilitating disagreements over minor details of implementation. A significant investment in Nerf weapons only goes so far in keeping such disputes from boiling over. The majority of these disputes are so minor that they can be settled with a coin flip. Regardless, I have created a new .sig, one that I am sure can give everyone something to think about. Arm the homeless! james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:29:17 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In-Reply-To: <33A5ACF5.6F6D@xtra.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:15 17/06/97 +1200, you wrote: >Hey Rudi, >If you've followed this thread all the way, you may recall early in it I >quoted "Pink Floyd" - I'm all right Jack, keep your hands off my stack. >Your view appalls me - there's something worse than being hungry - it's >seeing your child starve -and being powerless to do anything anout it. >Your suggested act of kindness is the same "kindness" applied by the >Nazis, Pol Pot and the Australians with their systematic extermination >of the aboriginals earlier this century. Perhaps one one day a predator >will be kind to you. >John Rich Perhaps this will happen, I hope it does so if I become sufficiently infirm or sick to make further life unsatisfactory. As for the Nazis, there was no kindness involved, and their's was an active solution. Polpot I can't really comment on. Australia's early treatment of it's aboriginal population was normal for conquerors of the time. Present day aboriginal activities show that all things may come to you if you just wait long enough. If I saw my child starving in front of me, I would not need your help to feed it. I know that my mother managed this for me, in the aftermath of the abovementioned Nazi contretemps. The trouble with the african , and many other famines, is that the people are overstocking their land. They have to get their numbers down. Famine is nature's way of doing this. Birthcontrol is too slow. We see this sort of thing in the pastotal industry in Australia everytime there's an El Nino. Famine hits the cattle and sheep farms and people have to de-stock. Hand feeding witjh imported feed only works for a few valuable stud animals, the rest have to die. What this really means of course, is that the cattle and sheep shouldn't be there, the land can't support them. If you feed the starving millions today, then you are *causing* the next famine, in that area. Rudi T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:41:21 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Refried Domes In-Reply-To: <33A73E0A.B100030@zebra.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 20:46 17/06/97 -0500, you wrote: >John William Rich wrote: >> I believe that the reason everything is rectangular and/or square is >> because we, as human beings can only think in two dimensions. Given > > No, that's just Euro-centric thinking. Or you might call it >"block-head" thinking. Most of the world's populations build round >houses, not square, or did, at least, before the missionaries and other >euro-centrics got to them. Euro-thought is very two dimensional, or >dualistic, "square", and non-imaginative. That's why euro-philosophies >are so lame. Not just Europe. I spent many years in Papua Niu Gini. The general house shape there tends to the rectangular. Timber though, except for split fence palings in the Enga area at least, is sually in the round. Some timber is adzed down to remove sapwood, but most is left natural. I think the rectangular structure may come from the usual system of planting two poles, with a ridgepole on top. This sets the theme for the rectangular roof and all else follows. Of course, in some areas they do build in the round. Oh, and I'm including areas that did not suffer the depradtions of goo botherers. Rudi T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:58:32 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Philosophy(?) In-Reply-To: <199706201116.LAA14184@virtuous.inmind.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:13 20/06/97 +0000, you wrote: > > Arm the homeless! > Right on! Roll on the next civil war, with the thusly reduced population there should then be ample work for all. Rudi T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:54:58 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Handling In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970620080523.00967cf0@worldweb.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:05 20/06/97 -0400, Maharaj James McCaig wrote: >As to steering from the rear, try this exercise: Take your car to a large >parking lot late at night. In reverse gear, accelerate to about 20 or 25 >mph, then turn the steering wheel just a little bit. If you find you can >steer the car comfortably, well the dymaxion car design works. Now try it at highway speed. >My guess is >that the geometry and momemtum will leave you a little breathless. Exactly my point. A vehicle that leaves you slightly breathless is'nt much chop. Rudi T ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 14:45:00 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Paul Taylor Subject: Millenium Dome Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings from London, I wonder if anyone out there can help me figure out some estimates for the weight of a proposed building? There is a plan here to celebrate the Millenium by flinging 600 million pounds sterling into the construction of a PVC/concrete dome. The Millenium Dome design seems sadly retrogressive, in that it constitutes a step backwards from the still under-appreciated innovations of Buckminster Fuller. It has twelve preposterous concrete masts, each apparently weighing 50 tonnes, and some kind of PVC shell 360 metres in diameter. Nice unrecyclable material. It looks like twelve cocktail sticks poking out of half a bread-roll. Is this a case of doing less with more? What would be the weight of a self-supporting geodesic dome of similar size? The whole project seems horribly sub-Fullerian and wasteful, but it now seems that the new government hasn't the heart or brains to cancel this scheme that they inherited from the previous bunch of champion swindlers. Yours irritably, Paul Taylor. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 09:12:00 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: ROWING NEEDLES Comments: To: rnrower@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear RN Associates, How much do they cost? **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:03:36 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: EdApple@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Philosophy(?) James. A rallying cry--a program--we have all been waiting for. Ed Apple ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 23:11:55 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Dunaj Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Handling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I drive a rear wheel steering machine every day! Its called a towmotor. You can turn on a dime and its very stable. These are in use everywhere. Check out a Web site on the "Trimuter" car. It has information on both rear and front wheel steering. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:46:34 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: The Lorax Organization: pcOnline Internet Services Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Handling In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970620080523.00967cf0@worldweb.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, James McCaig wrote: > As to steering from the rear, try this exercise: Take your car to a large > parking lot late at night. In reverse gear, accelerate to about 20 or 25 > mph, then turn the steering wheel just a little bit. If you find you can > steer the car comfortably, well the dymaxion car design works. My guess is > that the geometry and momemtum will leave you a little breathless. Steering from the rear in a 4-wheeled vehicle proves nothing about the stability of the dymaxion design. It has only one wheel in the rear which I believe was the real reason for its stability problems. When turning a car tends to lean to one side. Not a problem if the wheel is outside the mass of the car during the turn. However with the wheel in the center as the car leans the center of gravity shifts so that it is no longer over the wheel, but toward the side the car is already leaning to with no support on that side. This will tend to make the car lean further, shifting the center of gravity further to that side, and so on thus making the car more likely to loose control or roll over. St. Paul, Minnesota "Innovation and invention are what happen when someone makes a conscious effort to ignore accepted limits." -- Homesteader -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 01:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: hoodoo@newnorth.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: hoodoo@NEWNORTH.NET Organization: BrightNet Wisconsin Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car Handling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, James McCaig wrote: > > > As to steering from the rear, try this exercise: Take your car to a large > > parking lot late at night. In reverse gear, accelerate to about 20 or 25 > > mph, then turn the steering wheel just a little bit. If you find you can > > steer the car comfortably, well the dymaxion car design works. My guess is > > that the geometry and momemtum will leave you a little breathless. > Here is a link to a website that is excellent and describes all of the design principles of three-wheeled vehicles. It explains the differences between one wheel in front vs. one wheel in back. I highly recommend this website to anyone interested in this topic. http://www.netzone.com/~rqriley/3-wheele.html I hope I am not repeating something that someone has already posted, but, the website location is worth posting again. Bill ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 10:25:59 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SBeshear Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Would anyone know where to get the type aluminium dome at Disney? The greenhouse at epcot is aluminium. There are also 3 or more aluminium and plexiglass domes not counting the giant sphere. Just wondering if anyone knew where these domes came from. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:12:39 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ken G. Brown" Subject: Nader Khalil www site Comments: To: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nader Khalili now has a site with text and some pictures. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 13:13:26 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Johnson Organization: Natural Spaces Domes Subject: Re: Would anyone know where to get the type aluminium dome at Disney? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SBeshear wrote: > > The greenhouse at epcot is aluminium. There are also 3 or more aluminium > and plexiglass domes not counting the giant sphere. > Just wondering if anyone knew where these domes came from. There was dicussion previously so I'm sure the "keeper of the archives" could post that reference. Also try Temcor at their site http://www.temcor.com and for other large domes try http://www.teleport.com/~wwsi/domes.html Dennis Odin Johnson ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 17:22:18 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Would anyone know where to get the type aluminum dome at Disney? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Take a look in the "Links" section of my web pages under "Shelter, Domes". There should be an Epcot link to Disney's dome with more info. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: SBeshear > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Would anyone know where to get the type aluminium dome at Disney? > Date: Saturday, June 21, 1997 03:25 AM > > The greenhouse at epcot is aluminium. There are also 3 or more aluminium > and plexiglass domes not counting the giant sphere. > Just wondering if anyone knew where these domes came from. > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 11:24:42 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: ROWING NEEDLES Comments: To: John Belt MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear John, Their web address is below. I found them during a search of "Buckminster Fuller"; so I tried to email them, but it bounced! http://www.mywebpages.com/rowingneedles/rowingneedles.html You've asked some questions that I don't have the answer to (bad grammar); so I'm taking the liberty of forwarding your letter to the Geodesic List. At least 7,000 people read it. Hopefully someone out there will have the info you seek. Also, you mention projects in which others may have an interest (better grammar). They may be willing to help out in some way--who knows? Do these other projects have web pages? Do you? I'd love to see some web pages about your classes--outline, pictures, etc. I'm 57 and retired from the Income Maintenance Business otherwise known as "welfare", (and tired--working to revise & update my web pages). I'm interested in ALL aspects of Bucky's work (as you can see from my site). Please feel free to use the material at the BFVI in your classes; it's intended to be in the public domain. Thank you for taking the time to write me. Sincerely, Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: John Belt > To: Joe S. Moore > Subject: Re: ROWING NEEDLES > Date: Saturday, June 21, 1997 06:37 PM > > Hello Joe, John Belt here. In regard to this post, i missed the > post that you are replying to probably due to my college server being down > for maintenance. If you could forward me the mail you are replying to i > would appreciate it very much. I contacted BFI about the Rowing Needle > quite a few years ago to inquire about where any prototypes were, if it > went into production, if the plans besides what was published in the form > of patent drawings, etc., but could not get any information about them. I > told them i would pay for the search through the archive as they said > would be necessary but nothing came as a result. I am interested in any > material that you may come across concerning the needle. If you are > looking for any thing in particular please let me know and i will try to > return the favor. I am 57 and am design faculty at Oswego State > University in Oswego, New York, if you ever get this way you are very > welcome. Oswego campus is on the shore of Lake Ontario and is located > thirty miles north of Syracuse, NY. You have a lot of information out > here and it is appreciated, thanks. I am also interested in locating one > of the bathroom units, do you know of any? I heard there may be one in > Philadelphia but have not tracked down the lead at this time. Hope to be > in Philly this summer and will try to find out if one is stored there. > > I think i saw in a post that you were retired or am i just tired? > Retired from what and what is your principle interest in Fullers work if > you have particulars and it seems that most do. Mine is his attitude and > philosophy of education. My classes are heavily influence by his work and > i use a lot of the video, audio and structure principles in classes. The > long term feedback has been very good and encouraging. We assembled the > pentagon frame today of a 33 foot pavilion in order to experiment with the > pillow dome concept. A friend of mine Robert Gray is a principle outlaw > on this project and Jay Baldwin is consulting with us on it also. Robert > is also well along on getting Synergetics on the net as you are probably > aware since a post was on very recently. He is working with Ed Applewhite > on this now. Next weekend we hope to have one pillow of Tefzel made to > start some further thinking about attaching and using film pillows as > domes to cover a living machine for John Todd at the University of > Vermont. He is currently starting an Ecological Design program there and > is chairman and in the process of moving from Cape Cod. He is very > interested in a structure but like all of us is without the funds to start > a project and since he is not establish has not started the funding > process at this time. If you have any thoughts pro and con about pillow > domes or experience or know of anyone with experience, please give me the > advantage of your feedback. > > I went down to Bayonne, New Jersey two weeks ago to take a look at > John Kuhtik's Fly's Eye Dome that he has done as a form prototype. It is > an impressive form but not a final solution which he knows, but is a very > good study. It does make one really consider and want to do something > with the space when it is experienced as a mass to wander through. Frank > Lloyd Wright and Unity Temple: architecture is "the space within" came to > mind while i was there. I do not feel that fiberglas however is the > material that these will be made of for any production process, but it has > me thinking about them anew. > > Will stop this talk/thought process with the hope that it is not a > bother and there is something here of interest to you. Please regard the > offer for bed and breakfast as real and not a surface gesture. It is 9:30 > and we lost sunlight twenty minutes ago, good evening. > > Keep up your positive work, "Don't let up"----you know who and jb. > > On Fri, 20 Jun 1997, Joe S. Moore wrote: > > > Dear RN Associates, > > > > How much do they cost? > > > > **************************************** > > * Joe S. Moore > > * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar > > * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > > * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute > > * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > > **************************************** > > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 12:12:39 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: Radiation and Rotation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Tony and Bonnie DeVarco > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: syn-l: Radiation and Rotation > Date: Sunday, June 22, 1997 09:54 AM > > Richard wrote to Gerald, > > >This transformation can also be seen as 3D quicktime movie in continuous > >motion here: > > > > http://www.RT66.com/~charhawk/4D.htm > > > >-- > >Richard Hawkins > >http://www.newciv.org/Synergetic_Geometry/ > > Another gorgeous animation! -- the fruits of syn-l are the invitations to > synergetics that young people will soon cherish and scientists may soon use > as tools. > > At the end of his lengthy explanation of his synergetic geometry which > Bucky wrote to Collier's Research Service in 1950s (in response to a > reader's query about the math behind his glorious Moscow Exhibition Dome) > he noted, > > "The proobability is that the Energetic-Synergetic Geometry will be > gradually adopted by children and young people as a spontaneously enjoyable > pastime. It is improbable that any organizations of mature men will > embrace and accelerate the comprehension of the significance and facility > provided by the Energetic-Synergetic Geometry until the young world > familiar with its universal logic has grown to maturity. When that time > comes, the mature world will probably look upon their predecessors' failure > to comprehend the new facility as explanitory only by the unified > predicament we have described. > > "Ramifications of Energetic-Synergetic Geometry's discovered > inter-relationships now embrace all of the rational phenomena separately > discovered in the separate domains of science in both the physical and > meta-physical domains. Spontaneously associated student work has gradually > produced a public exposition of Energetic-Synergetic Geometry which will > soon go to press." > > [Buckminster Fuller - Answer to Colliers on Energetic-Synergetic Geometry] > > Bonnie > > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 12:20:35 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: SCIENTIFICALLY DESIGNED HOUSING Comments: To: Sucksters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Huck, Look in my "Links" section under "Shelter/Domes/Manufacturers". There's lots of people living in lots of domes as you will be able to see. If you want more detail I'm sure each manufacturer would be happy to tell you how many single-family domes they've sold. From that data you could estimate the total number of people living in domes. It might be an interesting study. I don't think anyone has ever done one like that before. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Sucksters > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: Re: SCIENTIFICALLY DESIGNED HOUSING > Date: Tuesday, June 17, 1997 09:29 AM > > > >You may want to review R.Buckminster Fuller's final design for a > >scientifically designed single family residence; please see my web page > >under "Selected Ideas/Icosahedra/housing". > > Hi Joe > > Thanks for the tip re: your pages on Fuller. Throughout the 70s, and > maybe into the 80s, I remember passing by a geodesic dome > home along hiway 280 in California that was at least Fulleresque if > not an actual Fuller, but apparently that's now gone the > way of the Dymaxion Deployment Units too. Is there anyone still > living in such houses, or are they just writing about them now? > > Regards, > > Huck > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harmon Seaver Organization: Maddog Press Subject: Re: ROWING NEEDLES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe S. Moore wrote: > > Dear John, > > Their web address is below. I found them during a search of "Buckminster > Fuller"; so I tried to email them, but it bounced! > > http://www.mywebpages.com/rowingneedles/rowingneedles.html > This doesn't work. -- Harmon Seaver hseaver@zebra.net http://www.zebra.net/~hseaver ======================================================================= All is impermanent, but this too shall pass away, and the way of the Samurai is death -- so speak your mind now, or forever hold your peace. ======================================================================= Copyright, Harmon F. Seaver, 1997. License to distribute this post is available to Microsoft for US$1,000 per instance, or local equivalent. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:11:42 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: ROWING NEEDLES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Should work now--used plural "pages" instead of "page". See URL below. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Harmon Seaver > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: ROWING NEEDLES > Date: Sunday, June 22, 1997 04:06 PM > > Joe S. Moore wrote: > > > > Dear John, > > > > Their web address is below. I found them during a search of "Buckminster > > Fuller"; so I tried to email them, but it bounced! > > > > http://www.mywebpage.com/rowingneedles/rowingneedles.html > > > > This doesn't work. > > -- > Harmon Seaver hseaver@zebra.net http://www.zebra.net/~hseaver > ======================================================================= > All is impermanent, but this too shall pass away, and the way of the > Samurai is death -- so speak your mind now, or forever hold your peace. > ======================================================================= > Copyright, Harmon F. Seaver, 1997. License to distribute this post is > available to Microsoft for US$1,000 per instance, or local equivalent. > ======================================================================= > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:22:59 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Fellow Bucky Enthusiast Comments: To: seryan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, Look in the BFVI (address below) in the "Links" section under "Shelter/Domes/FlyEye". They were and are made out of fiberglass. Also see the "Selected Ideas" section under "Icosahedra/Domes/Medium" (I think). Look around--my memory may be a bit faulty. Let me know if you can't find anything on fiberglass domes, and I'll dig deeper. Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: seryan > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: Fellow Bucky Enthisast > Date: Sunday, June 22, 1997 03:16 PM > > Dear joe, > > Although I've been a fan of Buckminster Fuller since I was fifteen, I just > discovered Bucky associated > stuff on the internet. So I'm catching up and I have a million questions. > > Joe, do you know of anyone who has made a geodesic dome or sphere from > fiberglass? > > Thank you for taking your time to respond. > > Best wishes, > > Steve Heintz > sheintz@usa.net > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 18:33:07 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: NAT'L SCIENCE & TECH WEEK MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "National [CANADA] Science and Technology Week is from Friday, October 18th to Sunday, October 27th [1997]. During that week, the grade nines will work at solving two challenging problems." ... "The second challenge that the team will face is to build a miniature geodesic dome. Students will use straws, tape and a set of instructions to build their geodesic dome." http://www.hookup.net/~science/sci9even.htm **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 03:31:39 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Science and the Internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "R.K. Treutlein" wrote: >If you feed the starving millions today, then you are *causing* the next >famine, in that area. > > Rudi T. I think a lot of us on bit.listserv.geodesic have absorbed a model of human behavior wherein a secure environment with fairly optimistic prospects for families is going to cut down on birth rates. A high birth rate is more symptomatic of: (a) high uncertainty as to which, if any, of your siblings will live (b) seeing the family as an economic unit or business, which will have greater viability if more adequately staffed (whereas you may not be able to afford to pay hired help, you can get your kids to work for room and board, and remit incomes to the family till). So in wiring up a 'global university' wherein the starving millions are recast as student/faculty (still in partially overlapping family units), we are attempting to replace (a) and (b) with: (a) good prospects that all your children will outlive you (b) good prospects that your personal survival can be met other than through building up a large extended family, meaning female spouses having options other than bearing and taking care of children pretty much to the exclusion of all other options for most of their adult years (c) literacy and skills for both women and men, leading to greater opportunities to build family and professional lives in ways other than through sheer increase in numbers A lot of statistical data supports the above model, i.e. GENI puts out population growth curves vs kilowatt-hours per capita and finds them inversely correlated (i.e. add refrigeration, television, lighting for night time study and watch family size taper off). Dr. Leakey of Kenya certainly ascribes to the above model, as do many in the so-called 'developing world' i.e. 'birth control through higher living standards'. I think you, on the other hand, are operating on the 'bacteria in a petri dish model' -- increase the food supply and the bacteria multiply geometrically to quickly overwhelm the petri dish, making the subsequent 'die back' all that much more dramatic, in terms of the absolute numbers involved. But to look at the highly complex econosphere and the network of relationships defining our human enterprise according to such a simple model is to grossly oversimplify and to set oneself up to draw erroneous conclusions, in many cases resulting in policy biases that are counterproductive, dangerous, and more likely to make the situation worse. Obviously, as a Fuller Schooler, I'm with those who advocate raising living standards and the most secure and sustainable way to bring population curves into alignment with whatever our econosphere might support (I don't claim to be guided by some fixed number here). The means to implement this strategy are at hand, both in terms of available inventory and storyboards (scenarios) suggesting how these ends might be achieved. All that's missing is media dissemination of the plans, and even that is not altogehter missing -- it's just a matter of degree (and we're in a race against the clock to be sure, as every day we sit around moaning about overpopulation, while the solutions are staring us in the face, is further testament to the immobilizing impact of overspecialization on the human species, which has rendered us far more incompetent than our politicians would like us to realize (since their authority depends on our seeing them as especially fit to usher in whatever future, whereas mostly their role is to serve as scapegoats when, quasi-inevitably, they fail to deliver). Design Science is where the initiative is being taken, not in our legislatures, which are for the most part equipped only to kick around known-quantity popular issue foot balls (a kind of public spectacle-sport), while meanwhile pandering to the financially powerful via less public -- but in many cases still easily accessed -- channels. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 05:19:49 +0000 Reply-To: roger@lisco.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Roger Silber Organization: LISCO Subject: Magnetic Geometric Modeling System Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello. I would like to introduce an invention of my own design which resulted from my attempt to better understand synergetics. Beginning with the "partially dried peas and toothpicks that Bucky started out with, and also trying toothpicks and glue, pipe cleaners, and so on, I eventually developed this magnetic based system. The Buckminster Fuller Institute (BFI) now lists this system as an educational resource, for which I feel particularly honored. The unique aspect of this system is that the structural elements are magnetically attached to spherical connectors, thereby permitting a wide range of continuously adjustable angles to be formed between the attached elements. This angular flexibility affords a unique opportunity for gaining direct physical experience with structures that are geometrically stable by virtue of the spatial arrangement of their members, and not by virtue of the rigidity of their connecting joints. Simple examples of structures of this kind are of course the triangular faced platonic solids, and composite structures like the octet truss. I have a web site which features this system at: http://www.RogersConnection.com While there is definitely commercial content at the site (apologies!), the emphasis IS on science, education, and art. In spite of the commercial content, I am hoping that the origins of this system within my own pure research in a quest to better come to terms with synergetics, will make this listing appropriate to the group. Finally, as synergetics and design science experts and explorers, I would like to open my web site to your scrutiny for comment. I really do want it to evolve into a substantial educational resource, and any comments that you may have with regard to scientific accuracy or other critical evaluation are invited. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:03:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: FiberGlass Domes Comments: To: seryan Comments: cc: DOMES _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (See responses below) **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: seryan > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: FiberGlass Domes > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 07:32 AM > > Joe, > > Thanks for the info. But going to the page, and clicking on the links, I > found several links that returned the dreaded Error 404. > I'm in the process of updating my web pages--will fix ASAP. > > My idea is to mass produce the triangles, to bring the cost down. Joe, are > you an engineer? No. A lonely generalist in a world of specialists. > I've been told that the six triangles that make up the dome are equal on > all sides, then someone else > told me that they are shorter on one side. Now I don't know what to > believe. Do you know? > Generally the sides are slightly different lengths. See the "Bibliography" section under "Books/About Bucky" for a list of books having detailed instructions on geodesic math. > Also, I'm told that leaks are a major fault in domes and inherent in the > design. Do you have any > data on this? and how leaks are overcome? > Domes hand-built by amateurs generally leak. Professionally designed & built ones generally don't. > Steve > sheintz@usa.net > Most Bucky books are now out of print. Use your local library's Inter-Library Loan service or check out one of the online used book sellers. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:54:51 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DoctorData@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Philosophy(?) On 6/22/97, RudiT. wrote >Right on! Roll on the next civil war, with the thusly reduced population there >should then be ample work for all. While this is clearly tongue-in-cheek, consider the problem from a business perspective. The greatest amount of income for most businesses comes from already existing customers. The greatest marketing effort goes toward keeping and improving the relationship with those customers. It's much more expensive to go generate new clients, and the repeats bring in much more $$$. The company that does slash and burn sales (line 'em up, knock 'em down, line up a new set of suckers) rarely does well for long and is often run out of town. Similarly, improving an existing infrastructure makes work for a greater number of people and brings back far greater benefits in overall production...of consumables, food, quality of life. The slash and burn method has been tirelessly tried by those who have assumed a zero-sum game (if you have something, it's less for me) to repeated and resounding failures. Furthermore, the rate of population growth is descreasing and in a couple of decades, the Earth's population is expected to top out. This is not due to riots wars or famine. This is due to the natural decrease in fertility as people have greater access to money, information and birth control. So it will be less and less easy to sucker the rubes and move on to the next third world country, as we will have run out of as many new cultures to fool. Using the proven method of improving business, it makes a lot more sense to improve the lot of the existing people in this world, and to improve the existing infrastructure than to "let them starve." It is rare that the existing stuff needs to be torn down. It didn't work for Pot Pol. I don't think it worked for Mao. I don't expect it will work for us. -Steve "He who dies with the most toys...still dies" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 14:54:59 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DoctorData@AOL.COM Subject: Re: SCIENTIFICALLY DESIGNED HOUSING On 6/17, Huck wrote > I remember passing by a geodesic dome home along hiway 280 in California that >was at least Fulleresque if not an actual Fuller, but apparently that's now gone the >way of the Dymaxion Deployment Units too. Is there anyone still living in such >houses, or are they just writing about them now? I think you may be talking about a house that i sstill there. It is indeed visible from highway 280 between the Highway 92 interchange and Black Mountain Road, on the East side of the freeway. We used to call it "the Flintstone House". It's been painted white and looks less Flintstone-ey. There was an article of a goodly length about this house in the San Jose Mercury News several years ago. With substantial luck, it may be in their archives on the Web. As the article reads, this house liked to wick up moisture and was expensive and damp. It sure looks cool from the freeway, though! Not far from there is a very lovely house that's been continuously occupied for years in Redwood City, built partially over a creek. There's another in Isla Vista, just outside UC Santa Barbara that has been continously occupied for a couple of decades. These latter two are wood with shingles. I know people who know people who have lived in both of these houses with no apparent complaints. -Steve ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:38:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: FiberGlass Domes Comments: To: DOMES _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: John Belt > To: Joe S. Moore ; seryan > Subject: Re: FiberGlass Domes > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 09:55 AM > > > > > ---------- > > > From: seryan > > > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > > > Subject: FiberGlass Domes > > > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 07:32 AM > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > My idea is to mass produce the triangles, to bring the cost down. Joe, > > > I've been told that the six triangles that make up the dome are equal on > > > all sides, then someone else > > > told me that they are shorter on one side. Now I don't know what to > > > believe. Do you know? > jb......... > what do you want to use the dome for and what size do you need? > what location and climate? where are you located? > > jb............. > > > Steve, if you can locate a Dome Book 2 to study this is the > best single source that i have found to get a good overall idea of domes > and see the different strut lengths. This oversize paperback is very hard > to find but if you ask around enough you will probably find someone who > has a copy. Jay Baldwin's book Buckyworks is still available since it > has only been out for a couple of years or less. The publisher is sold > out but it is coming out in paperback in the fall. Libraries really > bought this book so you should be able to find a review copy fairly easy. > > > Generally the sides are slightly different lengths. See the "Bibliography" > > section under "Books/About Bucky" for a list of books having detailed > > instructions on geodesic math. > jb.......... > also try if you have not already done so at this > time. > > > Also, I'm told that leaks are a major fault in domes and inherent in the > > > design. Do you have any > > > data on this? and how leaks are overcome? > > > > > Domes hand-built by amateurs generally leak. Professionally designed & > > built ones generally don't. > jb........ > i really agree with this. Most of the poor builds were built with > holes in the roof that will of course leak. Bucky said you would not > build a boat with a hole in it so why would you want to build a dome with > a hole in it. > > > > Steve > > > sheintz@usa.net > > > > > Most Bucky books are now out of print. Use your local library's > > Inter-Library Loan service or check out one of the online used book > > sellers. > jb........ > i do try some of the out of print sources that are online but find > that they are fairly high priced. i do much better going to as many used > book stores as i can find. if you are looking for a particular book, let > me know and i will try to locate it for you. i have found several for > people on the list. > > good luck in the searches for the information, john > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 16:47:39 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: Fiberglass Domes Comments: To: DOMES _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: seryan > To: Venter, Dawie > Cc: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: Re: Fiberglass Domes > Date: Monday, June 23, 1997 01:09 PM > > Dear Dawie, from Cape Town, South Africa. > > Welcome to America! > > Thank you for your response. You and I have similar ideas. I too want to > begin construction of a residential dome. It will be here in Florida, or > possibly an island in the Caribbean. I applaud your idea of beginning > small. > > I envision about eighty feet in diameter. I like the dome idea for several > reasons. Because it is resistant to high winds, the dome is attractive. I > think the hurricanes Florida gets now are getting stronger. I want to be > above the ground and impervious to the winds. Also, I am a muscian and I > understand the dome's acoustics are spectacular. Lastly, for centuries the > Chinese have practiced something they call feng shui. It has to do with the > way we furnish and occupy our living space. Circular living spcaes are > supposed to be more conducive to heathy living and thinking. > > As I see it, the hexagon is made up of triangular panels. I understand your > panels to be 2 meter on the side. Are the dimensions the same on each side > of the triangle? Your design and mine uses flanges to fasten the panels > together.We both plan on sealing them. How thick are your panels? How wide > is your flange. Did you make the panels or buy them? How many panels will > your home require? I wondered if the angle of the flange and the triangle > face will determine the cicumference of the sphere. What is the angle, on > your panels, between the face and the wall of the flange? I am looking for > a source for the fiberglass panels and clear ones for windows. > > I too plan to use the silicone sealant. I am planning to use a pneumatic > stapler with 16 gauge stainless steel staples, to hold the triangles > together. No drilling, no fuss, just position the machine over the two > flanges and pull the trigger, slide it and pull again. I had planned on > sealing AFTER I fastented the panels together. I feel it would be easier to > spot a potential leak if the sealant didn't obviously cover the gap between > the two fiberglass panels. Also sealant would keep anything small from > getting in the gap and growing or growing something that could split the > panel. I have even considered spraying the whole sphere with a sealant, but > that may not be a good idea. > > Thank you for taking your time to answer my questions. I am a designer, not > an engineer. A creative genius, I know only enough to be dangerous. > > Steve > sheintz@usa.net. > > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 17:47:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: USED BUCKY BOOKS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "BeatBooks of London specializes in rare and used books, magazines and ephemera from the Beat Generation, the Sixties CounterCulture, and the Avant-Gardes." 233. FULLER, R. Buckminster. No More Secondhand God and other writings. NY: Doubleday Anchor Books, 1971. First p/b edition. 145pp. This copy has been signed by Fuller on the front free endpaper. Near Fine. Ģ15.00 234. FULLER, R. Buckminster. Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth. NYC: Pocket Books (1970), 5th ptg. 1973. Wrps., 127pp. One of the essential '60s handbooks. Sl. creasing to front cover, o/w Near Fine. Ģ6.75 235. FULLER, R. Buckminster. Utopia or Oblivion. The Prospects for Humanity. Pelican, 1972. Wrps., 416pp. Near Fine. Ģ4.00 236. FULLER, R. Buckminster. Intuition. Garden City, NY: Doubleday/Anchor Books (1972), revised edition 1973. Wrps., 205pp. Light use only. Ģ5.50 237. FULLER, R. Buckminster and MARKS, Robert. The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller. Garden City, NY: Anchor Books (1973), 5th ptg. Sm.4to. Wrps., 246pp. Profusely illustrated. VG+. Ģ14.50 238. FULLER, R. Buckminster. Critical Path. NY: St.Martin's Press, 1981. First edition. 471pp. Illus. Very Good in dw. Ģ8.50 239. (FULLER, R. Buckminster). "Relax. Bucky Fuller says its going to be all right" (5pp., illus.) by Hal Aigner in ROLLING STONE #84 (June 10, 1971 - UK issue). Also: the Mamas and Papas; Ohio one year after; Mick Jagger's wedding to Bianca. VG. Ģ3.00 240. (FULLER, R. Buckminster). ROBERTSON, Donald W. The Mind's Eye of Buckminster Fuller. NY: St. Martin's Press (1974), re-issue. 109pp. VG+ in dw. Ģ6.75 Andrew Sclanders 11 Albany Road, Stroud Green London N4 4RR, UK Tel / Fax: + 44 (0)181 340 6843 Email: sclanders@beatbooks.demon.co.uk http://www.beatbooks.demon.co.uk/index.html **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 01:12:46 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Filip De Vos Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium Subject: Re: Science and the Internet R.K. Treutlein (rtreutl@TPGI.COM.AU) wrote: : The trouble with the african , and many other famines, is that the people ^^^ Exaclty where in Africa is there a famine going on now? : are overstocking their land. They have to get their numbers down. Famine is If you plotted African famines on a map, you would easily see that the major cause of famine in Africa is war, usually of the 'civil' variety. Eritrea/Ethiopia, Angola, Mocambique, Biafra. This points to the real cause of famine: when armed goons roam the land, killing, plundering, first normal distribution channels break down, and then people decide that the risks in subsistence farming outweight the benefits. Once they abandon their land, they are at the mercy of outside supplies. Add to that weapons especially designed to strike people in that activity, so called 'anti-personel landmines',that may remain active for decades and you have a situation where people are _prevented_ from even trying to subsistence-farm. : nature's way of doing this. Birthcontrol is too slow. ^^^^^^ As the above shows, nature has nothing much to do with it, except as a trigger, like in Somalia, where a natural period of drier climate put pressure on the use of the people on the local environment. If all the effort in Somalia to compete for remaining resources with arms, had been used instead to husband resources and maximise uses (irrigation works, choice of crops that need less water, anti-erosive works, like hedges to keep sand and dust down etc), then the population of Somalia would have been vastly better off now. : We see this sort of thing in the pastotal industry in Australia everytime : there's an El Nino. Famine hits the cattle and sheep farms and people have ^^^^^^ : to de-stock. Hand feeding witjh imported feed only works for a few valuable So you recognize that people have a capacity to intelligently adapt to a changing environment after all. : stud animals, the rest have to die. What this really means of course, is *Sigh*. They do not 'have to die', passively, they are slaughtered for meat. Jeez. Even Somalis know that when there is not enough fodder, they have to limit their herds. Even aid-agencies have taken to monitor cattle and meat prices on markets to try to predict future needs. : that the cattle and sheep shouldn't be there, the land can't support them. : If you feed the starving millions today, then you are *causing* the next : famine, in that area. What do you call an 'area'? Do you realise, that when transportation improves, this 'area' increases, allowing local or regional climate variations to be smoothed out? -- Filip De Vos The idea that space travel is inherently enormously expensive is fraudulent. FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be John S. Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:28:55 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Global Knowledge '97 On the topic of global networking and sustainable development, it seems apropos there should be participation from the members of this group (besides me ;) This is a large physical and virtual conference being hosted in Toronto this week. http://www.globalknowledge.org/ will tell you everything you need to know. Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN ------------------------------------------------- Test the impossible ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:47:35 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: AMAZON.COM SEARCH MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A search in Amazon.com's database using the word "buckminster" in the "subject" section yielded the following 49 hits: Around the Universe With R. Buckminster Fuller : A Whole Systems View of Spaceship Earth Michael Toms / Audio Cassette / Published 1996 Our Price: $15.95 Read more about this title... Buckminster Fuller Pawley, Martin Pawley / Hardcover / Published 1991 Our Price: $17.47 ~ You Save: $7.48 (30%) Buckminster Fuller (Pioneers in Change Series) Robert R. Potter / Library Binding / Published 1990 Our Price: $13.98 Read more about this title... Buckminster Fuller (Pioneers in Change Series) Robert R. Potter / Paperback / Published 1990 Our Price: $6.36 ~ You Save: $1.59 (20%) Read more about this title... Buckminster Fuller's Universe : An Appreciation ~ Ships in 2-3 days Lloyd Steven Sieden / Hardcover / Published 1989 Our Price: $24.95 Buckyworks : Buckminster Fuller's Ideas for Today ~ Ships in 2-3 days J. Baldwin / Hardcover / Published 1996 Our Price: $20.97 ~ You Save: $8.98 (30%) Read more about this title... Around the Universe in 90 Minutes With R. Buckminster Fuller #1606/Cassette Hardcover / Published 1989 Our Price: $15.00 (Special Order) Artifacts of R. Buckminster Fuller-A Comprehensive Collection of His Designs and Drawings : Designs, 1947-1960 Vol 3 R. Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1984 Our Price: $120.00 (Special Order) Artifacts of R. Buckminster Fuller-A Comprehensive Collection of His Designs and Drawings : Designs, 1960-1983 Vol 4 R. Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1984 (Publisher Out Of Stock) Artifacts of R. Buckminster Fuller-A Comprehensive Collection of His Designs and Drawings : Dymaxion Deployment, 1929-1946 Vol 2 R. Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1984 Our Price: $120.00 (Special Order) Artifacts of R. Buckminster Fuller-A Comprehensive Collection of His Designs and Drawings : The Dymaxion Experiment, 1926-1943 Vol 1 R. Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1984 Our Price: $120.00 (Special Order) Artifacts of R Buckminster Fuller : A Comprehensive Collection Ofhis Designs and Drawings R. Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1984 Our Price: $480.00 (Special Order) Buckminster Fuller : A Primer Conversation/Audio Cassette Hardcover / Published 1992 Our Price: $9.95 + $0.85 special surcharge (Special Order) Buckminster Fullerenes W. Edward Billups, Marco A. Ciufolini (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1993 Our Price: $65.00 (Special Order) Read more about this title... Buckminster Fullerenes W. Edward Billups, Marco A. Ciufolini (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1993 Our Price: $65.00 (Back Ordered) Read more about this title... Humans in Universe Richard Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1983 Our Price: $28.60 (Special Order) Mind's Eye of Richard Buckminster Fuller Donald W. Robertson / Hardcover / Published 1983 (Publisher Out Of Stock) Minds Eye of Richard Buckminster Fuller Donald Robertson / Hardcover / Published 1976 Our Price: $7.95 + $1.35 special surcharge (Special Order) Synergetics Dictionary : The Mind of Buckminster Fuller E. J. Applewhite (Editor) / Hardcover / Published 1986 Our Price: $350.00 ~ You Save: $150.00 (30%) (Special Order) Tetrascroll R. Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1982 (Publisher Out Of Stock) Tetrascroll R. Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1982 (Publisher Out Of Stock) Tetrascroll : Goldilocks and the Three Bears R. Buckminster Fuller / Paperback / Published 1983 (Publisher Out Of Stock) World of Buckminster Full/Nr Buckmins Vvmy 76351 Fuller / VHS Tape / Published 1995 Our Price: $29.99 (Special Order) World of Buckminster Full/Nr Buckmins Vvmy 76351 Fuller / VHS Tape / Published 1995 Our Price: $29.99 (Special Order) World of Buckminster Full/Nr Buckmins Vvmy 76351 Fuller / VHS Tape / Published 1995 Our Price: $29.99 (Special Order) World of Buckminster Fuller R. Buckminster Fuller / VHS Tape / Published 1996 Our Price: $29.99 (Special Order) Buckminster Fuller Alden Hatch / Paperback / Published 1976 (Hard to Find) Buckminster Fuller Martin Pawley / Unknown Binding (Hard to Find) Buckminster Fuller : An Auto-Biographical Monologue/Scenario Robert Snyder / Hardcover / Published 1980 (Hard to Find) The Buckminster Fuller reader R. Buckminster Fuller / Unknown Binding (Hard to Find) Buckminster Fuller to Children of Earth Richard Buckminster Fuller / Paperback / Published 1972 (Hard to Find) Buckminster Fuller's Universe : His Life and Genius Lloyd Steven Sieden / Hardcover / Published 1988 (Hard to Find) Bucky : A Guided Tour of Buckminster Fuller Hugh Kenner / Hardcover / Published 1973 (Hard to Find) Bucky; a guided tour of Buckminster Fuller Hugh Kenner / Unknown Binding (Hard to Find) Cosmic fishing : an account of writing Synergetics with Buckminster Fuller E. J. Applewhite / Unknown Binding (Hard to Find) The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller Robert W. Marks / Paperback / Published 1973 (Hard to Find) Encountering Buckminster Fuller Robert Snyder / Hardcover / Published 1980 (Hard to Find) A Fuller Explanation : The Synergetic Geometry of R. Buckminster Fuller Amy C. Edmondson / Paperback / Published 1992 (Hard to Find) A Fuller Explanation : The Synergetic Geometry of R. Buckminster Fuller (Design Science Collection) Amy C. Edmondson / Hardcover / Published 1987 (Hard to Find) Inventions : The Complete Patented Works of R. Buckminster Fuller (Numbered and Signed) R. Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1983 (Hard to Find) Inventions : The Patented Works of R. Buckminster Fuller R. Buckminster Fuller / Paperback / Published 1985 (Hard to Find) Mind's eye of Richard Buckminster Fuller Donald W. Robertson / Unknown Binding (Hard to Find) More With Less : The Future World of Buckminster Fuller Nathan Aaseng / Library Binding / Published 1986 (Hard to Find) Pilot for Spaceship Earth : R. Buckminster Fuller, Architect, Inventor, and Poet Athena V. Lord / Hardcover / Published 1978 (Hard to Find) R. Buckminster Fuller on Education Richard Buckminster Fuller / Paperback / Published 1979 (Hard to Find) R. Buckminster Fuller on Education Richard Buckminster Fuller / Hardcover / Published 1979 (Hard to Find) Richard Buckminster Fuller : journal articles published, 1970-1986 Mary A. Vance / Unknown Binding (Hard to Find) Richard Buckminster Fuller, Architect : 20 Years of Journal Reviews (Architecture Series : Bibliography, a 2004) Dale E. Casper / Paperback / Published 1988 (Hard to Find) Wizard of the Dome : R. Buckminster Fuller, Designer for the Future Sidney. Rosen / Hardcover / Published 1969 (Hard to Find) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/keyword-query/3432-9944988-713890 **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 09:58:48 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: AMAZON.COM SEARCH "GEODESIC" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A search at Amazon.com in the "Subject" area using the word "geodesic" produced the following results: 17 items are shown below. Engineering a New Architecture ~ Ships in 2-3 days Tony Robbin / Hardcover / Published 1996 Our Price: $45.00 Spherical Models Paperback / Published 1979 (Special Order) Charas, the improbable dome builders Syeus Mottel / Unknown Binding (Hard to Find) Dome Builder's Handbook No. 2 William Yarnall / Paperback / Published 1978 (Hard to Find) Dome Builder's Handbook No. 2 Paperback / Published 1978 (Hard to Find) Dome Houses and Energy Conservation : An Introductory Bibliography Staff of the Bibliographic Research Library / Paperback / Published 1983 (Hard to Find) The Dome People. Ruth Rea. Howell / School & Library Binding / Published 1974 (Hard to Find) Dome Scrap Book George P. Swanson / Paperback / Published 1981 (Hard to Find) Geodesic Math and How to Use It Hugh Kenner / Paperback / Published 1976 (Hard to Find) Geodesic Math and How to Use It Hugh. Kenner / Hardcover / Published 1976 (Hard to Find) How to Design and Build Your Dome Home Gene Hopster / Paperback / Published 1981 (Hard to Find) An Introduction to Tensegrity Anthony. Pugh / Paperback / Published 1976 (Hard to Find) Passive Solar Dome Greenhouse Book John Fontanetta / Paperback / Published 1979 (Hard to Find) Polyhedra Hardcover / Published 1976 (Hard to Find) Polyhedra : A Visual Approach# (Dome Series) Anthony Pugh / Hardcover / Published 1976 (Hard to Find) Spherical Models Magnus J. Wenninger / Paperback / Published 1979 (Hard to Find) Timber geodesic domes John Rich / Unknown Binding (Hard to Find) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/3432-9944988-713890 **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:53:56 +7 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Authenticated sender is From: John Buckman Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. Subject: Many small domes instead of one large one In-Reply-To: <199706011428.KAA01007@maya.sos.on.ca> The dome housing discussions on this list tends to center around a single large domes With large domes, you have to worry about things like lofts, partitions, sound proofing, heating/cooling inneficiency and other issues. Instead of building one large dome home, what about building 3 or 4 linked small domes? I've seen a few photographs of sites with one main home dome, and two smaller ones on the side. What about pursuing this strategy further, so that whenever you want extra room in your house, you build an extra, smaller dome, and link it with an above-ground tunnel. With smaller domes, you only heat & cool what you use, rather than the whole thing. Sound proofing is no longer an issue, and you don't need to build lofts. You also would get more natural top sunlight, since you won't have a 2nd floor above you. What do people think of this idea -- several smaller domes instead of one large one? This is kind of an extension to the popular suburban idea of building a small garage (perhaps with a 2nd floor bedroom) to extend a house. One nice advantage rectangular houses have over domes is that you can easily extend them. A quick visit to suburbia will prove that this is a popular thing to do. Well, what about doing the same with domes? John John Buckman Shelby Group Ltd. http://www.shelby.com Developers of Lyris Email List Server ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:17:23 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Many small domes instead of one large one Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Buckman said: >The dome housing discussions on this list tends to center around a single >large domes I think that the focus has been on single large domes as "main structures", since this is a lower net-cost structure versus a group of smaller domes. Figure out the surface areas of several small domes, compare with one large one encompassing the same volume (you can use a sphere as your model to keep the math simple). Now assume that a square foot of surface area costs "x". >With large domes, you have to worry about things like lofts, Not if you build a low-slung dome. A single-story dome is a very low-cost option that can avoid "riser walls", and eliminates the issue of stairways and framing for the loft. >partitions, sound proofing, heating/cooling inneficiency and other issues. All these issues should be addressed in any structure design process. >Instead of building one large dome home, what about building 3 or 4 linked >small domes? If you are on an extreme low budget, this might make sense, but it might be better to build a large shell, and simply have an "open floor plan" to start, building, wiring, and doing finish work as money becomes available. >I've seen a few photographs of sites with one main home dome, >and two smaller ones on the side. Yeah, the most common configuration seems to be a big dome, an attached garage, and then perhaps an attached "office", workshop, playroom, mother-in-law apartment, whatever. >What about pursuing this strategy further, so that whenever you want >extra room in your house, you build an extra, smaller dome, and link >it with an above-ground tunnel. Possible, but then the central dome becomes nothing but a giant intersection, with no walls, but with nothing but doorways/hallways. Might be better to design domes that intersected at a point higher than a person is tall to end up with more useful space and less tunnels. >With smaller domes, you only heat & cool what you use, rather than the whole >thing. Sound proofing is no longer an issue, and you don't need to build >lofts. You also would get more natural top sunlight, since you won't have a >2nd floor above you. All valid, but it sounds like more roof area and wall area than I would like to see. While you only heat and cool what you need, the suggested configuration means that there will be more surface area to loose heat/gain heat, and therefore a less efficient situation in scenarios where you ARE using (heating/cooling) the majority of the space. >What do people think of this idea -- several smaller domes instead of one >large one? This is kind of an extension to the popular suburban idea of >building a small garage (perhaps with a 2nd floor bedroom) to extend a >house. One nice advantage rectangular houses have over domes is that you can >easily extend them. A quick visit to suburbia will prove that this is a >popular thing to do. Well, what about doing the same with domes? I would suggest that one should design more carefully, and try to have a minimum number of domes. While the standard-issue movie moon-base is a series of interconnected domes, this presumes airlocks between domes, and an extra safety factor in the event of a decompression/leak. There is no need for airlocks on Earth (not yet, anyway) so the proposal/question asked by another list member several months ago might be a more valid approach. The list-member had a single-story dome, and wanted more square footage. The question had to do with jacking up the dome, and putting riser walls under it, to build an upper floor after raising the shell of the dome. While this job may seem scary, people jack up houses and move them around all the time, so this job (where there is no moving required) seems possible to implement. Perhaps the various kit vendors could address how hard this would be with their kits, if a typical dome of their brand could take the stress of being "jacked" 10 feet up into the air using one jack at each footprint "corner" between sill struts, and if anyone has ever done this with their products. Extra points will be awarded to the vendor with an actual existing design that addresses this scenario and allows a "phase one", "phase two" approach to keep up-front costs down. Regardless, it is better to build as big a shell as you thing you will ever need, do the minimum finish work required to get a CO, and relax and enjoy the fact that you will only build interior walls when you KNOW you need them - open floor plans work well, and the only walls REALLY needed are the ones around the bathroom and the kids' bedrooms. One could also save money by framing for windows, and buying/installing them later. Windows cost serious money, so they are another possible "pay-as-you-go" option. Arm the homeless! james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 01:43:16 +0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: AstroBoy Subject: tent domes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi list, Is there such a thing as geodesic tents? It would seem logical, but i have seen little evidence to prove that they exist. I'm looking for a geodesic dome-shaped tent covering about 25 m=B2, does anyone know if tents like that are available (for hire)? And where?=20 --- *** New url for Walhalla: http://www.techno.org/walhalla *** Toon "AstroBoy" Van de Putte (Dutch-speaking), vdputte@innet.be kat design Hertstraat 24, B2590 Berlaar (http://titan.glo.be/~gi30701/berlaar.html) Paleizenstraat 144, B1030 Brussel (http://digitaalbrussel.vgc.be/) Flanders (http://www.Vlaanderen.be/) Belgium (http://www.ping.be/~ping3701/belgium.html) EU (http://europa.eu.int/) Walhalla by kat design: http://www.techno.org/walhalla (http://www.club.innet.be/~year0357 does still work, but will contain something else soon) FUO homepage (under construction):= http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9656 'That seems to point up a significant difference between Europeans and Americans. A European says: "I can't understand this, what's wrong with me?" An American says: "I can't understand this, what's wrong with him?"' - Terry Pratchett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 18:39:28 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: tent domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit See Links/shelter/domes/tents **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- From: AstroBoy To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: tent domes Date: Tuesday, June 24, 1997 04:43 PM Hi list, Is there such a thing as geodesic tents? It would seem logical, but i have seen little evidence to prove that they exist. I'm looking for a geodesic dome-shaped tent covering about 25 mē, does anyone know if tents like that are available (for hire)? And where? --- *** New url for Walhalla: http://www.techno.org/walhalla *** Toon "AstroBoy" Van de Putte (Dutch-speaking), vdputte@innet.be kat design Hertstraat 24, B2590 Berlaar (http://titan.glo.be/~gi30701/berlaar.html) Paleizenstraat 144, B1030 Brussel (http://digitaalbrussel.vgc.be/) Flanders (http://www.Vlaanderen.be/) Belgium (http://www.ping.be/~ping3701/belgium.html) EU (http://europa.eu.int/) Walhalla by kat design: http://www.techno.org/walhalla (http://www.club.innet.be/~year0357 does still work, but will contain something else soon) FUO homepage (under construction): http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/9656 'That seems to point up a significant difference between Europeans and Americans. A European says: "I can't understand this, what's wrong with me?" An American says: "I can't understand this, what's wrong with him?"' - Terry Pratchett .- ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 23:40:17 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Johnson Organization: Natural Spaces Domes Subject: Re: Lifting/jacking domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote (in responce to John Buckman): > > The list-member had a single-story dome, and wanted more > square footage. The question had to do with jacking up > the dome, and putting riser walls under it, to build an > upper floor after raising the shell of the dome. While > this job may seem scary, people jack up houses and move > them around all the time, so this job (where there is no > moving required) seems possible to implement. > > Perhaps the various kit vendors could address how hard > this would be with their kits, if a typical dome of their > brand could take the stress of being "jacked" 10 feet up > into the air using one jack at each footprint "corner" > between sill struts, and if anyone has ever done this with > their products. > James In the late 70's, our customer had a 13.5 meter diam (44') half dome under construction. The 3' risers were up with only 5 sheathed. The framework was up with all the panels on except 5 or 6 left off for skylights. The site experienced 80 mph + straight line winds which lifted the shell and moved it about 25', half off the foundation/floor. We hired a 100' crane, connected 5 cables to 5 plates under the hubs at the 5 points around the top pentagon, lifted the dome shell, repaired the broken riser studs, set the dome back in place and made sure the riser to floor connections were secure. Piece of cake ! Another customer was putting together a 4 frequency half dome, which has the base ring of struts made up of the same strut length. After they had erected just the open dome framework, the customers decided they did not like the orientation of the dome grid as it pertained to their living room grouping of windows - it was not symetrical around the pentagon. With approx. 30 people in attendence, we unbolted the dome framework from the riser walls, lifted the framework (easily) and rotated the entire dome until the grid met the customers need for symetry! Our dome system utilizes wood paneled interior triangles made up of T&G boards. I am sure we would have no problem jacking up the dome shell and installing taller risers. We have a sideline business of repairing/renovating old domes. Many times we have completely removed or replaced a riser wall. Sometimes we do not even brace the dome, knowing that the dome shell will act like a big arm, holding itself in place. Each dome piece is connected to every other piece, no matter where it is located on the dome. Marvelous structure ! Dennis Odin Johnson http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 19:28:04 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In-Reply-To: <5on6ue$gn4$1@inf6serv.rug.ac.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:12 24/06/97 GMT, you wrote: >R.K. Treutlein (rtreutl@TPGI.COM.AU) wrote: > >: The trouble with the african , and many other famines, is that the people > ^^^ >Exaclty where in Africa is there a famine going on now? Buggered if I know, if any, we're discussing philosophy, not actual cases. >If you plotted African famines on a map, you would easily see that the >major cause of famine in Africa is war, usually of the 'civil' variety. >Eritrea/Ethiopia, Angola, Mocambique, Biafra. This points to the real >cause of famine: when armed goons roam the land, killing, plundering, >first normal distribution channels break down, and then people decide >that the risks in subsistence farming outweight the benefits. Once they >abandon their land, they are at the mercy of outside supplies. Even more reason to leave them to it, unless you want to go in and knock heads together. When they've solved their civil problems the survivors will have learnt a thing or two and be more amenable to see sense. If they can't solve their internal political problems, what hope have they got. >: We see this sort of thing in the pastotal industry in Australia >everytime >: there's an El Nino. Famine hits the cattle and sheep farms and people have > ^^^^^^ >: to de-stock. Hand feeding witjh imported feed only works for a few valuable > >So you recognize that people have a capacity to intelligently adapt to a >changing environment after all. I think you've misunderstood. The analogy is not between the starving millions and the graziers, it's between the starving millions and the stock (cattle, sheep). > >: stud animals, the rest have to die. What this really means of course, is > >*Sigh*. They do not 'have to die', passively, they are slaughtered for >meat. Jeez. Not allways. Once the drought really bites,. there are so many head of stock on the market that prices drop drastically, often to a level where it is not economically freasible to ship them out to market. Heck, often the cow cocky can't even afford the amunition to put them out of their misery. Even Somalis know that when there is not enough fodder, they >have to limit their herds. Yeah right, years ago, some 20 or 30 of them, the herds in the Sahel (sub Sahara) were limited by the availabilty of drinking water for the herds. Then some do-gooders went in and drilled for water. Now the people had enough water for their animals to drink, and also many more water points available in formerly unaccessible areas. End result was that the stock ate out all the vegetation and the Sahara came rumbling down into the former Sahel. Now the climate just has to hiccough and there's a famine on. >: that the cattle and sheep shouldn't be there, the land can't support them. > >: If you feed the starving millions today, then you are *causing* the next >: famine, in that area. > >What do you call an 'area'? Do you realise, that when transportation >improves, this 'area' increases, allowing local or regional climate >variations to be smoothed out? Maybe so, when's it going to happen? Todays systems aren't really up to it. Additionally, by the time it does, will the surpluses still be available? Even the US is having water problems, as well as salinity problems. Many countries have been mining their agricultural resources, pumping down aquifers faster than they refill, loosing soil because of poor agricultural practices and so. Pests are becoming ever harder to control. What about the greenhouse effect, ozone depletion? Rudi T. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:06:19 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Science and the Internet In-Reply-To: <33ade7a8.282668954@news.teleport.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:31 23/06/97 GMT, you wrote: >"R.K. Treutlein" wrote: > > >>If you feed the starving millions today, then you are *causing* the next >>famine, in that area. >> >> Rudi T. > >I think a lot of us on bit.listserv.geodesic have absorbed a model >of human behavior wherein a secure environment with fairly optimistic >prospects for families is going to cut down on birth rates. A high >birth rate is more symptomatic of: > > (a) high uncertainty as to which, if any, of your siblings will live You mean a high deathrate? > > (b) seeing the family as an economic unit or business, which will > have greater viability if more adequately staffed (whereas you > may not be able to afford to pay hired help, you can get your > kids to work for room and board, and remit incomes to the > family till). You mean every member is needed to till the soil, to get the food so you can live, you hope? Oh, and the kids aren't working for room and board, they are working to survive, and the income is not jingly cash, it's millet in the granary. > >So in wiring up a 'global university' wherein the starving millions >are recast as student/faculty (still in partially overlapping family >units), we are attempting to replace (a) and (b) with: > > (a) good prospects that all your children will outlive you > > (b) good prospects that your personal survival can be met other > than through building up a large extended family, meaning > female spouses having options other than bearing and taking > care of children pretty much to the exclusion of all other > options for most of their adult years > > (c) literacy and skills for both women and men, leading to greater > opportunities to build family and professional lives in ways > other than through sheer increase in numbers I wonder how this would sound in plain english. If you're at the point were you can talk about people's "professional lives", then you're talking about people who are allready largely insulated from the problem of famine. Similarly with females being able to explore options other than child raising. Actually, it's highly likely that such professionals find that children limit their ability to earn income, as they do not contribute to the family income (except in certain welfare situations), while in peasant families children actually contribute. Peasants make a profit on their children,. professionals make a loss, which they never re-coup. > >A lot of statistical data supports the above model, i.e. GENI puts >out population growth curves vs kilowatt-hours per capita and finds >them inversely correlated (i.e. add refrigeration, television, >lighting for night time study and watch family size taper off). >Dr. Leakey of Kenya certainly ascribes to the above model, as do >many in the so-called 'developing world' i.e. 'birth control >through higher living standards'. My parents never had refrigeration, of any kind, or TV by the time they finished their family (my sister and me). Must have been all that electric light and studying. > >I think you, on the other hand, are operating on the 'bacteria in >a petri dish model' -- increase the food supply and the bacteria >multiply geometrically to quickly overwhelm the petri dish, making >the subsequent 'die back' all that much more dramatic, in terms of >the absolute numbers involved. And if you're talking about peasant economies, then the petrie dish analogy applies. The only real answer is to move people from land that cannot support them, until you reach a viable stocking rate. The problem is, where to put the excess? Don't send them down here to Oz, we're likely overstocked allready, or these droughts wouldn't cause so many problems. And, likely, no-one else will want them either. New Zealand now, they claim to produce several times more food than they need, maybe they could take them? 8-D > >But to look at the highly complex econosphere and the network of >relationships defining our human enterprise according to such a >simple model is to grossly oversimplify and to set oneself up to >draw erroneous conclusions, in many cases resulting in policy >biases that are counterproductive, dangerous, and more likely >to make the situation worse. Most times people fiddling with our "econosphere" balls it up anyway, and the more sophisticated their model, the worse the balls up. > >Obviously, as a Fuller Schooler, I'm with those who advocate >raising living standards and the most secure and sustainable way >to bring population curves into alignment with whatever our >econosphere might support (I don't claim to be guided by some >fixed number here). The means to implement this strategy are >at hand, both in terms of available inventory and storyboards >(scenarios) suggesting how these ends might be achieved. All >that's missing is media dissemination of the plans, and even >that is not altogehter missing -- it's just a matter of degree >(and we're in a race against the clock to be sure, as every >day we sit around moaning about overpopulation, while the >solutions are staring us in the face, is further testament >to the immobilizing impact of overspecialization on the human >species, which has rendered us far more incompetent than our >politicians would like us to realize (since their authority >depends on our seeing them as especially fit to usher in >whatever future, whereas mostly their role is to serve as >scapegoats when, quasi-inevitably, they fail to deliver). Well, good luck, the world loves a cockeyed optimist, even I salute you and wish it could be so. Rudi T. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:53:55 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: seryan Subject: Air Force Domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Joe, Since our last e-mail I've determined that the cost of tooling up for a fiberglass dome is over a million dollars. Dawie, the man in Cape Town suggested locating the vendor of those domes to the Dept of Defense. Have you any data on who supplied the domes for the DEW line? Who was the general contractor? What problems, other than the cold, did they encounter? If the company that made the panels or the mold could be found then the dream of affordable dome housing might be with in reach. Any thoughts? Steve sheintz@usa.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:50:09 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Magnetic Geometric Modeling System Comments: To: Roger Silber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (See replys below) **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Roger Silber > To: Joe S. Moore > Cc: roger@lisco.com > Subject: Re: Magnetic Geometric Modeling System > Date: Tuesday, June 24, 1997 10:03 PM > > Dear Joe, > > Thanks so much for your e-mail. What an honor to receive a letter from one > so preeminent in the field as yourself! > > I've taken a new look at your site, and you've certainly created a great > resource! I was not aware of the "Master Index" section - that's going to > prove very useful. > The RBF Master Index is only a compilation of the _published_ indexes in books by & about Bucky & his work. Most (2/3?) of the Bucky-related books out there do NOT have indexes--not to mention all the articles by & about BF that are not indexed! > I'm very glad that you liked the web site - [http://www.rogersconnection.com] >any critical comments that you > may have are welcome. And thank you for forwarding my post to the Domes > list. I've been trying to stay on the conservative side posting-wise given > the partially commercial nature of the post, so I'm appreciative that you > solved part of that problem for me (re the Domes list). It's hard to > separate out commercial/non-commercial when a major portion of your > livelihood IS synergetics! > > As you probably know, I have a link to your work in my links section (at > the end of my "Science" section. I originally copied these links from > Kirby (with his permission). And now I see that the addresses are stale. > Here is how you are listed (underlines representing links): > > > Joe Moore -- Amiga drawings (FTP) and the > --------- -------------- > > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute > ------------------------------------ > > (web listing of resources, HTML by Richard Henderson). > > > where the links are as follows: > > Joe Moore: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/jm_gall.html > --------- > > Amiga drawings: ftp://ftp.newciv.org/pub/Bucky > -------------- > > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: > ------------------------------------ > http://radon.gas.uug.arizona.edu/~shunter/bfvi.html > > > I've updated > http://radon.gas.uug.arizona.edu/~shunter/bfvi.html > to > http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > > The Joe Moore link to Kirby's site still seems to be OK. > > The Amiga link seems to go to an empty directory. > > Some questions: > > 1) Do you want to drop or update the Amiga link? > Drop the Amiga link. All those pics have now been converted to JPG & GIF and are available on my web site. > 2) Do you want to drop the reference to Richard Henderson > as it seems that you may now be doing your own HTML? > Drop the link: The URL no longer works. Richard seems to have dropped from sight now that he's married (I believe). All that material is or will be some day available at my site. > 3) Would you like to suggest an entirely different reference > to your work than what is there now? > I would like to continue calling my site the "Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute". No one seems to mind--at least up to now. > Just let me know about all of this and I'll institute the changes. > > Thanks for making contact, and keep up the great work! > > Regards, > > Roger > .- Thanks for your kind words. Joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 18:20:14 +0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Tognon Marco Subject: Re: tent domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi "AstroBoy", Wij zijn reeds geruime tijd bezig in België met Geodetische Construkties. Het gaat echter langzaam, te wijten aan onbegrip van "Jan met de pet". We hebben daarom ook nog maar 1 kommercieel model, nl. een 1V Icosa met een diameter naar wens, doch niet meer dan 5.5 meter. Deze is in kit te verkrijgen, geboord, gezaagd, gefreesd en geschaafd. Na impregnatie (milieuvriendelijk...) is hij 3 weken na de opdracht beschikbaar. Gij zoekt een tentdome met een vloeropp. van ong. 25 mē. Wij zijn bezig met het op punt zetten van een geraamte (2V of 3V) dat uit een buizenwerk bestaat. Een tentzeil kan dan opgehangen worden tussen de vertexen met als gevolg dat het geraamte aan de buitenkant zichtbaar is. Het kan ook omgekeerd, geraamte aan de binnenkant en het zeil langs buiten. Nu, hoe dringend is uw tent en wat mag het kosten. Wij kunnen u hierop ook geen konkreet antwoord geven, maar we kunnen wel wat sneller uw probleem bekijken. Laat iets weten, Marco Tognon 014 572321 (overdag) 089 303381 na 18:00 uur. Groeten. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:26:13 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Air Force Domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, See the link for Antennas for Communications (AFC) Radomes (Fiberglass; Detailed info) in my Shelter/Dome Manufacturers section. Also, see John Kuhtik's work on the fiberglass Fly's Eye dome at http://www.wnet.org/bucky/newwork.html. DOME magazine had an article about him a while back. See my "Articles About" section. The DEW Line domes were developed at MIT's Lincoln Labs for the US Air Force and at least some were installed by General (Western?) Electric; see The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller, pages 208-11. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: seryan > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Air Force Domes > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 07:53 AM > > Hello Joe, > > Since our last e-mail I've determined that the cost of tooling up for a > fiberglass dome is over a million dollars. Dawie, the man in Cape Town > suggested locating the vendor of those domes to the Dept of Defense. Have > you any data on who supplied the domes for the DEW line? Who was the > general contractor? What problems, other than the cold, did they encounter? > If the company that made the panels or the mold could be found then the > dream of affordable dome housing might be with in reach. > Any thoughts? > > Steve > sheintz@usa.net > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 09:59:48 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yukihiko, There is some info at the Noguchi web site. Look in the "Links/People" section of my web site (URL below). Also, look in the "Master Index" section under the N's (3 refs to pages in books). Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Kirby Urner > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 08:11 AM > > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > cc: yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > Subject: Noguchi and Fuller > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:57:56 +0900 > From: Yukihiko Yoshida > > Does anyone know the relation between Isamu Noguchi,Great > Artist ,known as his sculpture ,and Fuller? > I am interested in both of them.Today I read the book on > Isamu Noguchi and found that he met and inspired from Fuller. > > Bests, Yukihiko YOSHIDA > > --yoyo > --Yuk;-)iko YOSHIDA > Yukihiko YOSHIDA,yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU > Email: pdx4d@teleport.com > Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:16:44 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: Global Data Manager 3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: James Richardson > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: Global Data Manager 3.0 > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 08:34 AM > > Dear Joe, > > Thanks for your interest in Global Data Manager! GDM is actually > available now on CD-rom for Windows 3.1 and higher. The price list is as > follows: > > $195: Registered individual users of earlier versions of GDM. > $295: Individual users, stand alone, non-networked. > $695: Institutional users (two to five local area network users) > $995: Insitutional users (six to ten local area network users.) > > Annual updates via CD ROM will also be available. > > To order a copy, please e-mail us your request, and we'll be happy to > mail you your new version of GDM. Due to a personnel change, the new > address is wgi@worldgame.org. > > You can fax us your order at (215)387-3009, or call (215)387-0220. > > -- > > Heidi Jo Shrager > Research Coordinator > World Game Institute > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:35:28 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Tony and Bonnie DeVarco > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 10:17 AM > > > > >To: yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > >From: Tony & Bonnie DeVarco > >Subject: Re: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller > >Cc: pdx4d@teleport.com > >Bcc: > >X-Attachments: > > > >Dear Yukihiko, > > > >Kirby posted your query to the syn-l listserve. Perhaps I can help you a > >little. Fuller and Noguchi's friendship started in the late 1920s and > >lasted their lifetimes. Fuller's colleague Shoji Sadao worked with both > >of them most intensively and is still the Executive Director of the > >Noguchi Museum in New York. Fuller's granddaughter, Alexandra Snyder (now > >Alexandra May) worked with the Noguchi museum for a number of years in the > >1980s and early 90s. In the past 20 years, a number of books have > >included short sections detailing their friendship and a great deal of > >correspondence between them exists in the Buckminster Fuller Archives as > >well as Noguchi's famous chrome bust of Fuller and his early sculpture, > >"Glad Day" and numerous photos of them together. > > > >Many of Noguchi's early sculptures were dedicated to Fuller and he in > >turn, influenced much of Fuller's work. Their mutual inspiration was both > >professional and personal. Nobody to date has put all of this history > >together in one place, however I believe a new PBS documentary on Noguchi > >was released this year. It features a section on Fuller and Noguchi. > >When Noguchi was working on his first majory work, "History of Mexico" > >which carried the theme E = MC squared, he wrote to Fuller for a quick > >definition of the famous equation -- Fuller, who was working on his first > >book at the time, "Nine Chains to the Moon" replied in a telegram to > >Noguchi in 1936 in which he explained E = MC squared in 50 words. This > >telegram can be found at WNET's website on Buckminster Fuller at > >http://www.wnet.org/bucky > > > >If you have specific questions about their friendship and collaborations, > >I can perhaps xerox some articles I have compiled from various books and > >other sources through the years (My husband has many books on Noguchi who > >was a strong artistic influence in his early years as a sculptor). The > >history of the friendship between Noguchi and Fuller presents a rich and > >interesting story of a personal collaboration and mutual inspiration > >between two great artist/thinkers of this century. > > > >Bonnie Goldstein DeVarco > >[former archivist of the Buckminster Fuller Archives]. > > > >__________ > > > >>To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > >>cc: yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > >>Subject: Noguchi and Fuller > >>Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:57:56 +0900 > >>From: Yukihiko Yoshida > >> > >>Does anyone know the relation between Isamu Noguchi,Great > >>Artist ,known as his sculpture ,and Fuller? > >>I am interested in both of them.Today I read the book on > >>Isamu Noguchi and found that he met and inspired from Fuller. > >> > >>Bests, Yukihiko YOSHIDA > >> > >>--yoyo > >>--Yuk;-)iko YOSHIDA > >>Yukihiko YOSHIDA,yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > >> > > > >>---------------------------------------------------- > >>Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU > >>Email: pdx4d@teleport.com > >>Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html > > > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:06:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller-addendum MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Tony and Bonnie DeVarco > To: yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > Cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller-addendum > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 10:26 AM > > Dear Yukihiko, > > An additional source of information on Fuller and Noguchi can be found on > the people section of the Noguchi Garden Museum's beautiful web site at: > > http://www.noguchi.org/html/people.html > > Bonnie > > >> From: Kirby Urner > >> To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > >> Subject: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller > >> Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 08:11 AM > >> > >> To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > >> cc: yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > >> Subject: Noguchi and Fuller > >> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:57:56 +0900 > >> From: Yukihiko Yoshida > >> > >> Does anyone know the relation between Isamu Noguchi,Great > >> Artist ,known as his sculpture ,and Fuller? > >> I am interested in both of them.Today I read the book on > >> Isamu Noguchi and found that he met and inspired from Fuller. > >> > >> Bests, Yukihiko YOSHIDA > >> > >> --yoyo > >> --Yuk;-)iko YOSHIDA > >> Yukihiko YOSHIDA,yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > >> > > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:35:50 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Belt Subject: Re: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller In-Reply-To: <199706251701.KAA03362@cruzio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those interested in Isamu Noguchi's work there is a PBS program on TV tonight, at least in this area. I am not sure if it is a national broadcast or local. If it is a repeat film I do not recall mention of the Fuller connection, however i do recall something in one or more books. Viewfinders, Inc.-P.O. Box 1665--Evanston, IL 60204-1665---- Phone (1-800-342-3342) has a 55 minute color video on Isamu Noguchi for $39.95 plus $5.00 shipping. Shipping for additional videos, add $1.00 each. They also have videos on other artists. The Noguchi Museum is located in Long Island City in Noguchi's former studio and is worthy of a visit. The director of the Noguchi Museum is Shoji Sadao, Architect and former partner of Fuller for twelve years as I recall with offices in Cleveland, Ohio at the time. Mr. Sadao's office is also in Long Island City at the Museum location. The museum is located just over the 59 th Street bridge into Long Island City from Manhatten and is the first exit over the bridge and first right and very near. Yukihiko, i did receive your mail within the past hour, will be in touch. john belt On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Joe S. Moore wrote: > Yukihiko, > > There is some info at the Noguchi web site. Look in the "Links/People" > section of my web site (URL below). > > Also, look in the "Master Index" section under the N's (3 refs to pages in > books). > > Joe > > **************************************** > * Joe S. Moore > * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar > * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute > * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > **************************************** > > ---------- > > From: Kirby Urner > > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > > Subject: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller > > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 08:11 AM > > > > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > > cc: yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > > Subject: Noguchi and Fuller > > Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 16:57:56 +0900 > > From: Yukihiko Yoshida > > > > Does anyone know the relation between Isamu Noguchi,Great > > Artist ,known as his sculpture ,and Fuller? > > I am interested in both of them.Today I read the book on > > Isamu Noguchi and found that he met and inspired from Fuller. > > > > Bests, Yukihiko YOSHIDA > > > > --yoyo > > --Yuk;-)iko YOSHIDA > > Yukihiko YOSHIDA,yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU > > Email: pdx4d@teleport.com > > Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html > > > > > > .- > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 15:16:00 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Crapse Subject: Re: USED BUCKY BOOKS do you sell to the U.S.? Rick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 13:52:49 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Telegram reprinted in _Nine Chains to the Moon_ on pages 62-3. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Tony and Bonnie DeVarco > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Cc: yukihiko@sfc.keio.ac.jp > Subject: Re: syn-l: Fwd: Noguchi and Fuller > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 11:41 AM > > Joe wrote: > > Bonnie: > >> >This telegram can be found at WNET's website on Buckminster Fuller at > >> >http://www.wnet.org/bucky /?????/????/ > > > >Where, EXACTLY, is the telegram located--I can't seem to find it at WNET's > >Bucky site. > > Sorry Joe, > > The telegram itself is rather hard to find on the site. The telegram is > located in Ed Applewhite's excellent essay, "Who Was Buckminster Fuller?" > at http://www.wnet.org/bucky/applewhite.html > > The full size scan of the image can be brought up from the essay or found > alone at this url: > > http://www.wnet.org/bucky/gif/telegram.gif > > Here is an excerpt of Noguchi explaining the event from 1936 in his > wonderful book, "Isamu Noguchi- A Sculptor's World" (c) 1968: > > "How different was Mexico! Here I suddenly no longer felt estranged as an > artist; artists were useful people, a part of the community. A group of > artists working in the Indian market of Abelardo Rodriguez offered me a > wall to sculpt if I would agree to the same rate of pay as they were > receiving for painting fresco, so much a square meter. I joyfully accepted. > > "This is how I made my first major work, colored cement on carved brick, > two meters high and twenty-two meters long, which I called 'History > Mexico.' It was history as I saw it at that time, from Mexico. > > "It was no dowbt biased by my bitter view. At one end was a fat > 'capitalist' being murdered by a skeleton (shades of Posada!). There were > war, crimes of the church, and 'labor' triumphant. Yet the future looked > out brightly in the figure of an Indian boy, observing Einstein's equation > for energy. In answer to my request, Bucky Fuller had sent me a fifty-word > telegram explaining the equation. However I could also appreciate the > sardonic humor of the man who used to come by to watch me work, saying that > E=MC squared really meant _Estados=Muchos Cabrones squared ('the State > equals Many SOB squared'). In any case I was able to shout and do what I > pleased, and I was happy." > [Isamu Noguchi from ""Isamu Noguchi- A Sculptor's World" New York: Harper & > Row Publishers. > (c) 1968] > > I think Bucky also published the same telegram in "Nine Chains to the Moon" > or "Earth, Inc." -- have to double check on that. > > Best! Bonnie > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:10:21 +7 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Authenticated sender is From: John Buckman Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. Subject: Re: Many small domes instead of one large one In-Reply-To: <199706242220.WAA21576@virtuous.inmind.com> > Perhaps the various kit vendors could address how hard this would > be with their kits, if a typical dome of their brand could take the stress > of being "jacked" 10 feet up into the air using one jack at each footprint > "corner" between sill struts, and if anyone has ever done this with their > products. James, thanks for your point-by-point response to my message. Reading it made me realize what the real issue here is, and what's been bugging me about the dome discussions on this list. To me, the entire point of Geodesic domes is that they're an incredibly strong structure. There are other advantages as well, such as the need for less materials to cover an area, and, their "sex appeal" (they look great). Bucky hated the traditional approach to house building, where stacks of two-by-fours are cut and nailed piece by piece to make a house. Bucky's goal was inexpensive, efficient housing. The majority of the Geodesic houses I see fail in that task. They're just as expensive as regular houses, they're built piece-by-piece out of wood, and they require teams of skilled workers, just like conventional homes. Sure, they look cool, but so what? Take, for example, the common use of riser walls. From a structural standpoint, their use undermines the structural integrity of the dome. I know, people use them so that they have nice flat 1st floor walls. But, when all is said and done, what you have is not a dome-house, but a traditional house that just happens to have a geodesic roof on it. I say, why bother? Other than aesthetics, I don't see any compelling hudely reason to build a wood-based dome with a riser wall. Riser walls negate the entire reason for building a geodesic in the first place. The majority of really successful geodesic domes seem not be homes, but "coverings", such as the Montreal World's fair dome, and the hundreds of other examples (such as food storage barns, radio antenna coverings, soccer fields, etc). I think that Bucky knew this, which is why he worked on other kinds of domes which could be mass produced and easily assembled. One such example is the Fly's Eye dome. John Kuhtik is aparently trying to tool up to build these things (http://www.wnet.org/bucky/kuhtikwf.html). To me, this is much more representative of Bucky's synergistic thinking than the Geodesic homes I see. The Fly's Eye solves all the major problems that wood-based geodesic homes don't: it can be mass produced, it's very light (made of fiberglass) and strong, it can be easily assembled (it bolts together), it is watertight and needs no roofing, and its window design is simple and elegant. Isn't this where we should be focussing our energy? An elegant solution, rather than some riser-wall kludge. I know this may come off as heresy, but from what I've seen, wood-based dome homes just don't seem like a good idea. They're just as expensive, just as hard to build, and less well understood than traditional homes. The pioneers in home building seem to be exploring very different techniques. For example, look at http://www.monolithicdome.com/ and their "inflatable structure" building technique, where a vinyl balloon is inflated, then sprayed from the inside with insulation and concrete. Again, a single elegant solution to several problems. Dante Bini's homes and buildings are another great example of innovation and synergy, also using concrete, but focussing instead of the speed of construction (just a few hours), see http://www.webville.com/oak/bini/ I apologize for ranting, it's just that Bucky's basic principles of synergy, design science, and "doing more with less" seem to be have been forgotten in these discussions. There are a lot of people on this list doing truly innovative, important work, let's just not forget *why* we're going it: to solve real problems. That's what we should be talking about. John John Buckman Shelby Group Ltd. http://www.shelby.com Developers of Lyris Email List Server ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:06:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: USED BUCKY BOOKS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, I don't sell used Bucky books, BeatBooks does. sclanders@beatbooks.demon.co.uk http://www.beatbooks.demon.co.uk/index.html **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Richard Crapse > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: USED BUCKY BOOKS > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 12:16 PM > > do you sell to the U.S.? > > Rick > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:58:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: ISAMU NOGUCHI ON PBS Comments: To: DOMES _LIST , SYNERGETICS _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The American Masters series special "Isamu Noguchi: Stones & Paper" will be shown in Northern California by KQED (Channel 9) on Thursday, June 26, 1997, between the hours of 8:00PM and 9:00PM. Noguchi & Fuller were old friends. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:15:54 -0700 Reply-To: oregon@ordata.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc. Subject: Re: Many small domes... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The many small domes idea has been pursued with the similar sort of benefits that you are looking for several times. The reason that this has not caught on and become the standard is cost. Lets face it, a 23' dome foundation is really not that much cheaper than a 50' dome foundation, and a 23' dome roof is not much cheaper than a 50' dome roof. So everytime you add a dome, you add a roof and foundation, where if you built larger, you do not. The most popular think-ahead-modular system is the unfinished basement. Basements are inexpensive space, can be finished over time, and do not even need to be placed below ground. To another issue raised: Adding domes to existing domes like they do with square/rectangles is just as easy. We've done this a number of times, and done things like adding extensions, panorama view rooms, and 5-sided buildings to existing domes. We also added a number of domes to existing square/rectangles. And to James Fischer's reward system for suggesting ways to raise up existing domes, I don't think any of us want to touch this one. Advice liability and lack of information about the total project is way to high. It is possible, to be sure, but I'm not going to tell anyone how to do it without personally inspecting every inch of the dome, having our engineer review the plans (both original and new), and knowing that an expert in the field of house moving is going to be at the site, doing the job. If we lived in a less lawsuit oriented country...but that is another issue altogether. -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:11:21 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Johnson Organization: Natural Spaces Domes Subject: Re: Lifting/jacking domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Fischer wrote (in responce to John Buckman): > > The list-member had a single-story dome, and wanted more > square footage. The question had to do with jacking up > the dome, and putting riser walls under it, to build an > upper floor after raising the shell of the dome. While > this job may seem scary, people jack up houses and move > them around all the time, so this job (where there is no > moving required) seems possible to implement. > > Perhaps the various kit vendors could address how hard > this would be with their kits, if a typical dome of their > brand could take the stress of being "jacked" 10 feet up > into the air using one jack at each footprint "corner" > between sill struts, and if anyone has ever done this with > their products. > James In the late 70's, one of our customers had a 13.5 meter diam (44') half dome under construction. The 3' risers were up with only 5 sheathed. The framework was up with all the panels on except 5 or 6 left off for skylights. The site experienced 80 mph + straight line winds which lifted the shell and moved it about 25', half off the foundation/floor. We hired a 100' crane, connected 5 cables to 5 plates under the hubs at the 5 points around the top pentagon, lifted the dome shell, repaired the broken riser studs, set the dome back in place and made sure the riser to floor connections were secure. Piece of cake ! Another customer was putting together a 4 frequency half dome, which has the base ring of struts made up of the same strut length. After they had erected just the open dome framework, the customers decided they did not like the orientation of the dome grid as it pertained to their living room grouping of windows - it was not symetrical around the pentagon. With approx. 30 people in attendence, we unbolted the dome framework from the riser walls, lifted the framework (easily) and rotated the entire dome until the grid met the customers need for symetry! Our dome system utilizes wood paneled interior triangles made up of T&G boards. I am sure we would have no problem jacking up the dome shell and installing taller risers. We have a sideline business of repairing/renovating old domes. Many times we have completely removed or replaced a riser wall. Most of the time we do not even brace the dome, knowing that the dome shell will act like a big arm, holding itself in place. Each dome piece is structurally connected to every other piece, no matter where it is located on the dome. Marvelous structure ! Dennis Odin Johnson http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:00:06 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: old ftp address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Joe S. Moore > To: Bo Atkinson > Subject: Re: old ftp address > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 06:57 PM > > Bo, > > The Bucky Fuller Master Index is also available at my site (URL below). It > is a compilation of only the PUBLISHED indexes in the back of > Bucky-Related books. The rest (about 2/3) have NO index! And that's not > even considering all the magazine articles by and about Bucky. There's a > long way to go. > > Joe > > **************************************** > * Joe S. Moore > * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar > * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute > * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > **************************************** > > ---------- > > From: Bo Atkinson > > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > > Subject: Re: old ftp address > > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 04:19 PM > > > > Greetings Joe, > > > > On Jan 11 you posted this...... > > > > "The index to _Synergetics 1 & 2_ is available at the following URL > along > > with all the other published Bucky book indexes: > > > > ftp://cpp.critpath.org/pub/Fuller/Index/ " > > > > I was just trying to get there today on my Mac but it seems to have > > disappeared. Can you recommend anything else? > > > > Best regards, Bo Atkinson > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 00:03:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Many small domes instead of one large one Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John Buckman wrote: >What do people think of this idea -- several smaller domes instead of one >large one? This is kind of an extension to the popular suburban idea of >building a small garage (perhaps with a 2nd floor bedroom) to extend a >house. One nice advantage rectangular houses have over domes is that you can >easily extend them. A quick visit to suburbia will prove that this is a >popular thing to do. Well, what about doing the same with domes? > >John > >John Buckman >Shelby Group Ltd. http://www.shelby.com >Developers of Lyris Email List Server I think this is a fine idea. Fly's Eyes and other pods will come in flavors, with specialized functions predesigned into them, e.g. kitchen, medical, communications, demo, plain, office, vacation... A typical village might consist of whatever pre-existing structures, plus a complement from the catalog: a kitchen, medical, communit, and 8 office pods (no vacationers in the picture this time). These might stick around or be off to new locations within weeks, depending on the mission. As for suburbia, I'm not sure what to say (not my focus). The new Oregon Dome near Fremont here in PDX is looking good, last I visited. The lot isn't very large so the "one big dome" concept makes a lot of sense, given the surface:volume:floorspace ratios James was talking about. But in a more open vista, such as on a NavAm rez (part of my view through my AFSC window) I think the idea of multiple units, with maybe a large community dome for village meetings and ceremonies, makes a lot of sense. Kirby Principal 4D Solutions ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:32:22 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mailinglists@INTERLINK-BBS.COM Subject: Want to run your OWN mailing list? Hello! InterLink can manage your mailing list for only $15.00 (US) a month! If you are paying more than that, you're paying too much! We can let you choose your address, determine who gets on the list, and a whole lot more. Your users can automatically subscribe/unsubscribe, receive a weekly or daily "digest" of all posts made to the list, and even access an archive of old posts! We can also do autoresponders, allowing people to receive your information automatically when they write to a certain address. If necessary, we can accept non-US currency. Please write to negotiate an exchange rate. For a comprehensive FAQ, write to: mailinglists@interlink-bbs.com Our postal address is: InterLink P.O. Box 2757 Springfield, Illinois 62708 USA If you had a specific question and would like more information, please write to: info@interlink-bbs.com The more specific your questions are, the better we are able to answer them! Have a great day! InterLink ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:34:07 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Riser Walls (Many small domes....) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Take, for example, the common use of riser walls. From a structural >standpoint, their use undermines the structural integrity of the dome. In theory, yes. In actual practice, I doubt it. Riser walls (and the rest of the dome) are over-designed to the point of overkill in most domes. Since no one takes advantge of the fact that one can use far less massive strut materials, the addition of riser walls does not create a structural problem. It is sad, but "safety factors" used by most structural engineers simply ignore Bucky's entire premise. I have wondered if the mass of the overweight struts in typical dome-homes work AGAINST the ability of the dome to be a "tensgitry" structure. The only way I would know how to clearly test this would be to play around with a dome framework before it is buried under layers of sheathing. By unbolting a few bolts and moving a few struts around, one could check to see if the remainder of the structure "responded" as a in-balance structure should. (Don't try this at home kids, it is a scary thing to do.) Arm the homeless! james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 11:51:58 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Riser Walls (Many small domes....) In-Reply-To: (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu) >>>>> "jf" == James Fischer writes: jf> It is sad, but "safety factors" used by most jf> structural engineers simply ignore Bucky's entire premise. I jf> have wondered if the mass of the overweight struts in typical jf> dome-homes work AGAINST the ability of the dome to be a jf> "tensgitry" structure. In the early 80's I was commissioned to build a 20', low frequency tensegrity dome (12 strut) for use as a stage enclosure by event artist Stellarc. Because of the requirements to mount 'lightening tubes' on the struts and his initial request to be able to walk on the struts, I was asked to use 12'x12"x2" wood planks, which I believe should qualify as an unneccessarily high-mass for the purpose of the form. What happens in all domes became very apparent in this structure: The accelleration of struts toward the earth causes a drop in tension at the base and apex, and an increase in tension at the sides, ie, not surprisingly, the dome behaves like a spheric lump of Jello and flattens, and then becomes as stable as an unrestrained waterbed. I developed so much pressure at the sides trying to tension the 8th" aircraft cable to give the stage stability, I split two of the beams from tip to stern (and in the process, developed the world's most powerful nutcracker). What amazed me was how, being a lad of 130lbs, I and three assistants like me were _able_ to leverage this much energy! We were pulling together lines at the slack basin when the more horizontal struts exploded. In a later attempt (once we found more wood), the dome was slackened overall, but still tightened to give it stand-alone shape. A workman sitting on a beam to eat his lunch was the proverbial straw on the camel's back. As a result, on the third attempt, I asked Stellarc not to stand on the beams and used guy-wires to the ceiling to artificially force the dome into a spherical shape. In the BC Forestry paper on dome loading, they observe a dome under load from snow will cause _sheer_ stress along the triangular edges as neighbour panels attempt to rotate (jitterbug) to accomodate the change in tensional distortion (slack at top, tighter at the sides) --- from what I hear, sheer stress is the bane of the panel-dome builder. Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN ------------------------------------------------- Test the impossible ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 16:16:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Riser Walls (Many small domes....) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, See below: **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Gary Lawrence Murphy > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Riser Walls (Many small domes....) > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 08:51 AM (snip) > In the BC Forestry paper on dome loading, they observe a dome under load > from snow will cause _sheer_ stress along the triangular edges as neighbour > panels attempt to rotate (jitterbug) to accomodate the change in tensional > distortion (slack at top, tighter at the sides) --- from what I hear, sheer > stress is the bane of the panel-dome builder. Could you give us a reference or better yet, an URL to the "BC Forestry paper on dome loading"? > Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 > mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 > http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN > ------------------------------------------------- Test the impossible > .- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:27:20 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Riser Walls (Many small domes....) In-Reply-To: (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu) >>>>> "JM" == Joe Moore writes: >> In the BC Forestry paper on dome loading, they observe a dome >> under load from snow will cause _sheer_ stress along the >> triangular edges JM> Could you give us a reference or better yet, an URL to the "BC JM> Forestry paper on dome loading"? Wish I could --- I read this years ago (ie >15) from a copy in my local library system (obtained via interbranch loans). All I remember is it being a publication of the British Columbia Dept of Forestry and being primarily concerned with tests done on panel domes using stress guages under various simulations of natural stresses (snow and wind) Hope this helps! Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN ------------------------------------------------- Test the impossible ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:56:32 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: prkosuth Subject: many small domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that the many small domes idea is pretty cool. Consider that you could build a "complex" of connected or unconnected domes to serve various functions This is also consistent with the notion of individual homes/compounds of some West African villages. Each family may have a short wall separating their space from others and within that space they may have several buildings revolving and evolving around people or functions. The down side of this is that it couuld be a quick and easy way of assessing and demonstrating one's wealth. I have always considered my "retirement complex." Start with building a single dome and over the years build up and out as time and need dictate. If there is no need then no expansion. Domes allow this flexibility I think. Paul prkosuth@mychoice.net OPINIONS ARE MY OWN Brehm Preparatory School Carbondale IL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 05:45:26 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Baseball pattern for sewing up a sphere? In-Reply-To: <199706270127.VAA02623@maya.sos.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Does anyone have a .DXF drawing of the pattern used to >sew the skin onto a baseball, or even something I could scan? > >I remember Bucky Fuller talking about it in Synergetics, >but I just want to experiment with sewing skins onto spheres. > >Best regards, >Kris Metaverso > I sold a fairly detailed model of a CAD baseball to a multimedia firm. It was based on a geodesic ball of 320 faces. I opened my Mac CAD file and exported the double seam path as PC dxf, which totaled 47K (in size). If you want this, (gratis), let me know. Getting a flat 2d projection of the skins would be easier in real life. Just cut up a balloon and use it to trace a real baseball. Otherwise an accurate flat 2d CAD projection would have so many disconnected triangles that it would not look right. My CAD does these projections. But sorting out a preferred arrangement of such a seam- intersection- projection can take a long time. Projecting a geodesic sphere is easy, and looks like an organic geodesic asterisk. 3d Escheresque ambiguity from CAD modeling to concrete, geodesic sculpting, see my works: http://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 10:25:19 -0700 Reply-To: oregon@ordata.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc. Subject: Re: Riser Walls (Many small domes....) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is an interesting point. I've heard some argument that people using our system should be doing 2x4 domes because they flex better than the 2x6's will. Many people assume you need 2x6's for strength when really it is only an insulation issue, and one easiy resolved with adding insulation to the exterior of the dome. Which brings me to a second point on strut width. Many folks also assume that you need to get up to the same insulation values in a dome as you do in a square and rectangle, ignoring the affects of reduced surface area and aerodynamics. The truth is, a 2x4 dome has the equivalent heat loss characteristics as a well insulated square/rectangle home. A 2x4 dome with exterior insulation or a 2x6 dome has the equivalent heat loss characteristics as a super-insulated square/rectangle home. To go beyond this is to do "less with more", following the law of dimishing returns. Now, if you go and put huge riser walls and extensions on every opening, plus a few extensions out of your loft openings, you will need to beef up the insulation. In doing this, you defeat the natural efficiencies in materials, cost, and energy efficiency in a dome by adding surface area and complexity. If you are contemplating more than two extensions to get the space you want, then you ought to be looking at a larger diameter dome. James Fischer wrote: > > >Take, for example, the common use of riser walls. From a structural > >standpoint, their use undermines the structural integrity of the dome. > > In theory, yes. In actual practice, I doubt it. Riser > walls (and the rest of the dome) are over-designed to > the point of overkill in most domes. Since no one takes > advantge of the fact that one can use far less massive > strut materials, the addition of riser walls does not > create a structural problem. > > It is sad, but "safety factors" used by most structural > engineers simply ignore Bucky's entire premise. I have > wondered if the mass of the overweight struts in typical > dome-homes work AGAINST the ability of the dome to be > a "tensgitry" structure. > > The only way I would know how to clearly test this would > be to play around with a dome framework before it is > buried under layers of sheathing. By unbolting a few > bolts and moving a few struts around, one could check > to see if the remainder of the structure "responded" > as a in-balance structure should. (Don't try this at > home kids, it is a scary thing to do.) > > Arm the homeless! > > james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:31:22 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Filip De Vos Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium Subject: Re: Many small domes instead of one large one John Buckman (jbuckman@SHELBY.COM) wrote: : The dome housing discussions on this list tends to center around a single : large domes With large domes, you have to worry about things like lofts, : partitions, sound proofing, heating/cooling inneficiency and other issues. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Actually, larger domes are more efficient. : house. One nice advantage rectangular houses have over domes is that you can : easily extend them. A quick visit to suburbia will prove that this is a : popular thing to do. Well, what about doing the same with domes? One way to 'extend' domes is to build a bigger dome over the existing one, then dissasembling the old one from underneath. (I am thinking of garden-of-eden domes, not closed wooden ones). The cost might be comparable to building two smaller extra domes, and the old dome can be used as scaffolding for the new one. -- Filip De Vos The idea that space travel is inherently enormously expensive is fraudulent. FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be John S. Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 18:24:34 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: aoifjd@ASLDJF.COM Organization: Internet MCI Subject: Send Thousand of Newsgroup Posts and Hour Mailloop is an Industrial Bulk Email and Newsgroup Broadcasting Program. Visit http://205.199.4.219 for More info. Here is just some of the many hunreds of Mailloops Features: Send Bulk Email to Thousands of People an hour- Send Bulk Broadcasts to the Newsgroups with an Anti-Cancel Bot Feature- Send Binaries to the Newsgroups in Bulk- Process your incoming Mailbox - Build E-Mail and Newsgroup Lists From: Extracting from the Newsgroups- Extracting from a Whois- By processing your incoming Mailbox- By using the finger Client (You can finger a domain and extract all of the email addresses)- Extracting From a Import File- Extract from a Web Page- Extract from an FTP Site- And Many Many More. If you interested in these and many other features that Mailloop has to offer, or to obtain a copy, Visit Our Web Site: http://205.199.4.219 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 09:37:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harmon Seaver Organization: Maddog Press Subject: Parabolic Dishes?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know of a source for various sized parabolic dishes? Edmonds Scientific sells a small one, but I want something larger, like 2-4 feet. -- Harmon Seaver hseaver@zebra.net http://www.zebra.net/~hseaver ======================================================================= All is impermanent, but this too shall pass away, and the way of the Samurai is death -- so speak your mind now, or forever hold your peace. ======================================================================= Copyright, Harmon F. Seaver, 1997. License to distribute this post is available to Microsoft for US$1,000 per instance, or local equivalent. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 11:47:31 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James McCaig Subject: Roofing Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear friends, There is a common thread of concern for roofing materials that runs through these groups. My group is considering a Geodesic dome for our gathering place. This would be a sort of mini stadium, partially underground, with tiers cut from the earth and arranged as a place for our meetings and chanting. As a developer of 35 years experience, I have built several earth sheltered houses and find the concept of partially underground structure covered with a dome, very attractive and it should be acoustically interesting. To go forward with the project, though, we would need to be sure that the roof was up to the test of time and weather and that the innate beauty and simplicity of the dome would be revealed and enhanced by the selection of roofing material. In my mind, this immediately eliminates shingles of any kind. They aren't made to institutional building standards and won't stand the test of time. They fit like a fist on the eye, IMHO. Has anyone devised a system unique to Geodesic domes? Because of the repetitive shapes, it seems relatively easy to me to design a metal roofing system that could be stamped to any predetermined size. These stamped pieces (of copper, aluminum, stainless, core 10, etc.) could be fitted over the wooden dome panels during fabrication and moisture penetration could be eliminated by space age gasket material between panels. Some of this stuff has amazing ability to expand and contract, like EPDM rubber for example. A metal mullion strip could hide the joint. Stamping would permit complex patterns at the joints, allowing for rabetting of the edges to accommodate caulking, etc.. Inside, stamped panels could be snapped into place. They could be fabricated with light fixtures, etc. and could also be equipped with insulating panels that would be part of the snap-in. Fabrication of the patterns would be simple. In fact, a jig could probably be devised that would be variable and set up automatically, if the system were to be used in volume. The other approach I have considered would require the use of EPDM rubber roofing, applied in wraparound configuration over each panel. Expansion and contraction would be handled by rubber welting. There is a rubber roofing material that is impregnated with copper dust. It weathers to a copper patina. The weakness in either system, of course, is that you only get one chance to roof your dome this way, unless you don't mind disassembling the building to re-roof. Do systems like this exist? Warm regards, James McCaig Sufi Center of Washington jmccaig@worldweb.net Sufi Center Bookstore http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 16:57:52 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Judy Ksiazek & Gene Hersey Organization: Gene Subject: Re: Roofing Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James McCaig wrote: > > Dear friends, > > There is a common thread of concern for roofing materials that runs through > these groups. > > My group is considering a Geodesic dome for our gathering place. This > would be a sort of mini stadium, partially underground, with tiers cut from > the earth and arranged as a place for our meetings and chanting. > > As a developer of 35 years experience, I have built several earth sheltered > houses and find the concept of partially underground structure covered with > a dome, very attractive and it should be acoustically interesting. To go > forward with the project, though, we would need to be sure that the roof > was up to the test of time and weather and that the innate beauty and > simplicity of the dome would be revealed and enhanced by the selection of > roofing material. In my mind, this immediately eliminates shingles of any > kind. They aren't made to institutional building standards and won't stand > the test of time. They fit like a fist on the eye, IMHO. > > Has anyone devised a system unique to Geodesic domes? Because of the > repetitive shapes, it seems relatively easy to me to design a metal roofing > system that could be stamped to any predetermined size. These stamped > pieces (of copper, aluminum, stainless, core 10, etc.) could be fitted over > the wooden dome panels during fabrication and moisture penetration could be > eliminated by space age gasket material between panels. Some of this stuff > has amazing ability to expand and contract, like EPDM rubber for example. > A metal mullion strip could hide the joint. Stamping would permit complex > patterns at the joints, allowing for rabetting of the edges to accommodate > caulking, etc.. > > Inside, stamped panels could be snapped into place. They could be > fabricated with light fixtures, etc. and could also be equipped with > insulating panels that would be part of the snap-in. > > Fabrication of the patterns would be simple. In fact, a jig could probably > be devised that would be variable and set up automatically, if the system > were to be used in volume. > > The other approach I have considered would require the use of EPDM rubber > roofing, applied in wraparound configuration over each panel. Expansion > and contraction would be handled by rubber welting. There is a rubber > roofing material that is impregnated with copper dust. It weathers to a > copper patina. > > The weakness in either system, of course, is that you only get one chance > to roof your dome this way, unless you don't mind disassembling the > building to re-roof. > > Do systems like this exist? > > Warm regards, > > James McCaig > Sufi Center of Washington > jmccaig@worldweb.net > > Sufi Center Bookstore > http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 18:50:22 CDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "J. Michael Rowland" Organization: Management 21 Inc. Subject: Re: Roofing Comments: cc: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com James McCaig writes (about roofing systems for domes: > it seems relatively easy to me to design a metal roofing > system that could be stamped to any predetermined size. These > stamped pieces (of copper, aluminum, stainless, core 10, etc.) > could be fitted over the wooden dome panels during fabrication > and moisture penetration could be eliminated by space age > gasket material between panels.... This is a good example of the kinds of things I was ranting about the lack of, in building supply and Home Depot stores (in that "other" dome list). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 09:07:05 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: - Robert Dyksterhouse Subject: Re: tent domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 97-06-25 03:52:51 EDT, you write: << Hi list, Is there such a thing as geodesic tents? It would seem logical, but i have seen little evidence to prove that they exist. I'm looking for a geodesic dome-shaped tent covering about 25 mē, does anyone know if tents like that are available (for hire)? And where? >> Stuctural Visions out of Oregon has a remarkable hub disign for use with fiberglass, PVC, or steel struts. It makes for a very strong frame and is available in many sizes. They then use a tent-like covering that comes in various thicknesses with windows and doors. E-mail them at: sv@presys.com or check out their website: http://www2.GeodesicDomeStructures.com/GDS/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Curt Flowers Organization: University of Illinois Subject: Re: Many small domes instead of one large one Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think John's ideas below are excellent. I've liked the multi-dome-complex idea for many years. Back in the 1965-1975 period we called these "gnomes". John Buckman wrote: > > The dome housing discussions on this list tends to center around a single > large domes With large domes, you have to worry about things like lofts, > partitions, sound proofing, heating/cooling inneficiency and other issues. > > Instead of building one large dome home, what about building 3 or 4 linked > small domes? I've seen a few photographs of sites with one main home dome, > and two smaller ones on the side. What about pursuing this strategy > further, so that whenever you want extra room in your house, you build an > extra, smaller dome, and link it with an above-ground tunnel. > > With smaller domes, you only heat & cool what you use, rather than the whole > thing. Sound proofing is no longer an issue, and you don't need to build > lofts. You also would get more natural top sunlight, since you won't have a > 2nd floor above you. > > What do people think of this idea -- several smaller domes instead of one > large one? This is kind of an extension to the popular suburban idea of > building a small garage (perhaps with a 2nd floor bedroom) to extend a > house. One nice advantage rectangular houses have over domes is that you can > easily extend them. A quick visit to suburbia will prove that this is a > popular thing to do. Well, what about doing the same with domes? > > John > > John Buckman > Shelby Group Ltd. http://www.shelby.com > Developers of Lyris Email List Server