From MAILER-DAEMON Thu Sep 12 19:36:36 2002 Return-Path: Received: from acsu.buffalo.edu (deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.57]) by linux00.LinuxForce.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian -4) with SMTP id g8CNaZL2012757 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:36:35 -0400 Message-Id: <200209122336.g8CNaZL2012757@linux00.LinuxForce.net> Received: (qmail 14278 invoked from network); 12 Sep 2002 23:29:04 -0000 Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 12 Sep 2002 23:29:04 -0000 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 19:29:04 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8d)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9707" To: Chris Fearnley Content-Length: 336823 Lines: 7863 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 00:00:05 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Subject: *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the semi-monthly "How To" file about the GEODESIC list. It has info on content and purpose of the list, as well as subscription info, posting instructions, etc. It should prove useful to new subscribers, as well as those who are unfamiliar with LISTSERV operations. This message is being posted on Tue Jul 1 00:00:03 PDT 1997. If you are tired of receiving this message twice per month, and are reading bit.listserv.geodesic through USENET news, then you can enter this subject into your KILL/SCORE file. If you're reading through email, you can set up a filter to delete the message. Both of these tricks are WELL worth learning how to do, if you don't know already. And isn't it about time to learn something new? Isn't it always? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEODESIC is a forum for the discussion of the ideas and creations relating to the work of R. Buckminster (Bucky) Fuller. Topics range from geodesic math to world hunger; floating cities to autonoumous housing, and little bit of everything in between. On topic discussion and questions are welcome. SPAM and unsolicited promotions are not. (Simple, eh?) ----------------------- To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and in the body of your letter put the line: SUB GEODESIC When you want to post, send mail to GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU ******NOT***** to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU! LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is for subscriptions, administrivia, archive requests, etc. GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is the actual discussion group. Anything sent to GEODESIC will go to all members. (And you don't want to look like a jerk having everyone see your "SUB GEODESIC John Q. Public" command! ;^) ) This list is also linked to USENET in the group bit.listserv.geodesic If you want to receive copies of everything you send to the list, use the command SET GEODESIC REPRO. 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(Can be in the same message.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe and unsubscribe.) Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 06:21:49 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Re: Roofing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" At 11:47 AM 6/29/97 -0400, James McCaig wrote: > >My group is considering a Geodesic dome for our gathering place. This >would be a sort of mini stadium, partially underground, with tiers cut from >the earth and arranged as a place for our meetings and chanting. > >Has anyone devised a system unique to Geodesic domes? >................................ In my humble understanding, the original geodesic domes essentially grew from aircraft tooling, where ultimate fix turing was feasible. It does seem a little odd if no roofing contractor ever devoted to marketable interlocking geodesic systems. Maybe marketing has been the block. On the other hand wood structures in general are highly questionable when a pulp exporting state like Maine, (where i live), has begun importing building lumber from Siberia!!! I would like to humbly suggest that ferro concrete be reexamined as a viable dome material. As a concrete sculptor, i have "poured" concrete, without forms, in a curvaceous vertical wall configuration, up to 5 ft high continuously. I'm not sure what a daily height limitation would be. And how much overhead domed pouring would be safe is another question of interest to me. But i'm convinced that ferro concrete is the most feasible material of our day. The only real draw back of concrete is that industry has cast it as a massive blockheaded thing. In reality few if any concrete tools address the smaller sculptural builder. I have had to improvise and modify tooling. "Sprayed concrete" suffers from small aggregate and high cement consumption. (And high tooling cost). What is needed is extra large aggregate handling systems, which is almost a convergence with stone masonry. Yet this seems most cost effective to me, a fearless visionary. Then again, construction might be a regional thing, suggesting availability of local materials, (like stone availability). (Yet i can't stop thinking of the simpler insect hive construction. The little wasp can build dome like structures upside down and house it's life needs simultaneously... Should human needs be so disproportionally unfeasible?). Bo @kinson 3d Escheresque ambiguity from CAD modeling to Gaudiiesque concrete sculpting, see my stuff: 0000,0000,ffffhttp://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:49:14 +1200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Cath Sheard Subject: Re: House plans go down the drain - fixed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A month or more ago I wrote that we couldn't build our dream dome because the council was being "difficult". Some of you wrote back with various suggestions which I really appreciated - but haven't been able to say so because our service provider isn't providing! Someone mentioned squashing a dome or making it very tall and someone else said to try John W Rich, the dome architect, here in Auckland. Brilliant advice :-) We met with him the other weekend and he's in the process of doing up plans now. We've seen the prelims and they're great! Basically, we can only build on the middle 10m of the section, and 30m long. So he's taken it to the full 10m, stretched it to 11m the other way, and pushed the top down and out a bit to give more headroom with less exterior surface area ( no doubt not a very technical description). It gives us exactly what we want, and he followed all our arm waving and vague ideas first time - amazing. Anyway, my point is that he's doing stuff that no-one else seems to be, he's really approachable, happy to help with our shoe-string budget problems, and he makes cool domes. We had a look through two at the weekend and thought they were terrific. I'll let you know how it all goes - thanks for the encouragement to keep the dome dream going . BTW - expect this sounds like a promo brochure ;-) Have a great week, Cath ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:59:24 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Roofing In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970701060542.0069b6b8@agate.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Bo, Yes, i grew up with my Dad in the precast concrete business. He did major building facades up and down the east coast. Among his company's innovations were light weight panels that incorporated perlite as the aggregate and the panels were fabricated using aircraft design techniques. The panels were thin, usually less than four inches and they had complex metal support inside to give strength. The perlite (heat expanded vermiculite) has good insulating properties and they were able to achieve some insulation, although this was done in the sixties and early seventies, when energy considerations were not as serious as they are today. The panels were protected from weather by various methods, usually ceramic tyle, or various aggregates that were placed in the molds before the concrete was poured into them. This was all done on a steam table and the concrete would cure enough in 12 hours so the panels could be lifted by crane and put into storage for shipment within a week or so. I have no doubt that proper engineering would make concrete/metal panels feasible for use in domes. We are still left with the moisture protection problem and I personally think the concrete/metal is overkill. If you visit a panelization factory for conventional housing you will be surprised to see hows fast everything goes, with mostly unskilled labor. No doubt the dome companies of which we have become aware can knock out a reasonably priced frame. Now let's get to the roof and the interior finish and make these buildings acceptable to a larger segment of the market! Visited your page and congratulations on all you do. Very interesting. Warm regards, James McCaig Sufi Center of Washington jmccaig@worldweb.net Sufi Center Bookstore http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:12:07 +7 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Authenticated sender is From: John Buckman Organization: Walter Shelby Group Ltd. Subject: Re: Roofing In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970701105924.00977340@worldweb.net> > We are still left with the moisture protection problem The "Monolithic Dome" people have a fairly extensive article about insulation, in which they discuss the moisture problem. Their solution is to use 3 inches of sprayed polyurethane foam between a layer of sprayed concrete (Shotcrete) on the inside, and a cloth exterior. They argue that this performs substantially better than fiberglass, which looses much of its insulation abilities when it gets wet. The URL to their article about insulation is http://www.monolithicdome.com/articles/rfairy/rfairy.htm > have become aware can knock out a reasonably priced frame. Now let's get > to the roof and the interior finish and make these buildings acceptable to > a larger segment of the market! Not to sound like a Monolithic Dome spokesperson, but their domes need no interior wall finishing, nor do they need roofing, as the interior is finished concrete, and the exterior is the plastic/cloth bubble shape they used to build to spray the shape with, which is already water-tight. I've ordered their "informational pack", so I'll know more about their processes (and prices!) in a week or so. Has anyone on this list worked on building a Monolithic Dome? They offer a 5 day training course (in Texas) for $500 which looks quite interesting. Regarding roofing methods for Geodesic Domes, Robert Conroy has used "Peel and Seal" roofing on his dome, he told me it cost about $2000, and works well for him. I like the way it looks. You can see it in action at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/geodesic.htm John John Buckman Shelby Group Ltd. http://www.shelby.com Developers of Lyris Email List Server ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 22:03:31 +0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Tognon Marco Subject: Re: House plans go down the drain - fixed! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Cath, I read about John W Rich several years back and I do not remember where... I'm glad to hear that your dome probably comes true. As I understand you work with a thight budget and that, again, proves that domes can provide shelter and still be made in a non-expensive way. It is a HUGE problem here in Belgium to get the architect even to consider looking at a dome. I've been fighting for several years and I have to quit. I get to old for a loan (44?) and therefore I spend all my spare energy in smaller domes used as garages, gazebo's and the like. But never the less, I'm fascionated by the possibilities they offer and I like to have as much examples of homes as possible. Especialy the different ones, like these from Rich. There fore I want to ask you if possible: Do you have his address or maybe an internet address? I like to contact him and we will see what the outcome will be. Thank you bery much and good luck with your dream come true. Marco Tognon Meeënheide 83A B3600 Genk Belgium Marco.Tognon@ping.be ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 04:52:44 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Alan Thebo Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Subject: Re: Roofing John Buckman (jbuckman@SHELBY.COM) wrote: > > We are still left with the moisture protection problem > > > Regarding roofing methods for Geodesic Domes, Robert Conroy has used "Peel > and Seal" roofing on his dome, he told me it cost about $2000, and works > well for him. I like the way it looks. You can see it in action at > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/geodesic.htm Does anyone know approximately how this compares to a shingled (ashphalt) roof? It certainly looks nice and has to be much less time consuming to apply but I wonder about long term (10 years +) durability and of course price (cheaper is better.... at least if it works...) I've also wondered some about sheathing- it seems that a lot of people are using 1/2" exterior grade plywood which seems to me to be overkill as long as the panels have some internal studs for support. In a lot of the (box home) construction where I live contractors are using particle board of walling and some roofing- the panelized sheathing with built in insulationseems to be popular as well. Has anyone tried this approach or maybe 3/8" ply to save some on the price? The frame itself, and even 1/2 ply sheathing ends up being fairly cheap, I'm just worried about what I'm going to find for insulation / roofing / window costs. The entire reason me and my wife are considering building a dome (32 or 40 ft) is to get away from the ungodly rent / banking (loan) industry that seems to be geared towards goobiling up a third of everyone's income in this country (if the case of students and the poor more like 1/2 even). If you own your home outright, it seems to me that you could have the same standard of living working 20hrs a week instead of 40! Mike Thebo mthebo@indiana.edu > > John > > John Buckman > Shelby Group Ltd. http://www.shelby.com > Developers of Lyris Email List Server ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:14:56 GMT+0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Venter, Dawie" Organization: Infoplan, Cape Regional Office Subject: Re: House plans go down the drain - fixed! Hi Marco I could not help but overhear your conversation with Cath : ) You can contact John William Rich at: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Regards Dawie -----------------snipped------------------------------------- > Especialy the different > ones, like these from Rich. > > There fore I want to ask you if possible: Do you have his address or maybe > an internet address? > > I like to contact him and we will see what the outcome will be. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:50:53 GMT+0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Venter, Dawie" Organization: Infoplan, Cape Regional Office Subject: Interest Michael Alan Thebo (mthebo@INDIANA.EDU) wrote: --------------snipped-------------------------------------- > The entire reason me and my wife are considering building a > dome (32 or 40 ft) is to get away from the ungodly rent / banking (loan) > industry that seems to be geared towards goobiling up a third of > everyone's income in this country (if the case of students and the poor > more like 1/2 even). As a matter of interest (no pun intended) what is the going interest rate on a home loan in the US? In South Africa it ranges between 18% to 19% over a 20 year period. This implies, not taking any supplementary payments into consideration, that for a 100,000 loan, one would have to pay back the original 100,000 PLUS 275,000 interest! Total 375,000. Not a bad rip-off, as rip-offs go. On top of this you have to take out life insurance to cover the loan, property insurance to cover loss or damages to the building and short-term insurance for the contents. Now comes property taxes (based on the value of the property) plus utility costs. (Remember, all this is being paid with after tax money, quite a nice little racket they have going here). They have no risks. You die, the insurance kicks in, covering the loan. You don't pay, they take the house back. The house gets trashed, the property insurance kicks in. Why then 19% interest - only blatant greed I guess. > If you own your home outright, it seems to me that > you could have the same standard of living working 20hrs a week instead > of 40! The true definition of being poor is not having any choices. You could either choose to work less, travel more or pursue a hobby. I agree with you, at least you then have some spare capacity which you could apply as YOU desire. Regards Dawie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:19:31 -0700 Reply-To: oregon@ordata.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc. Subject: Re: Roofing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Alan Thebo wrote: > > Does anyone know approximately how this compares to a shingled (ashphalt) > roof? It certainly looks nice and has to be much less time consuming to > apply but I wonder about long term (10 years +) durability and of course > price (cheaper is better.... at least if it works...) Our experience with these sorts of roofing systems has been that they cost about twice what asphalt shingles do and lasts about half as long. I'm not sure specifically with this product, but it does warrant checking out. > I've also wondered some about sheathing- it seems that a lot of people > are using 1/2" exterior grade plywood which seems to me to be overkill as > long as the panels have some internal studs for support. In a lot of the > (box home) construction where I live contractors are using particle board > of walling and some roofing- the panelized sheathing with built in > insulationseems to be popular as well. Has anyone tried this approach or > maybe 3/8" ply to save some on the price? We use 7/16" exterior grade oriented strand board. It uses the same glue as exterior grade plywood so you don't have the offgassing problems that you get particle board, and is rated stronger than the plywood, probably because it is so consistent in quality (no voids). The sheathing is structural, so I believe that you would not want to use any thinner. > The frame itself, and even 1/2 ply sheathing ends up being fairly cheap, > I'm just worried about what I'm going to find for insulation / roofing / > window costs. The entire reason me and my wife are considering building a > dome (32 or 40 ft) is to get away from the ungodly rent / banking (loan) > industry that seems to be geared towards goobiling up a third of > everyone's income in this country (if the case of students and the poor > more like 1/2 even). If you own your home outright, it seems to me that > you could have the same standard of living working 20hrs a week instead > of 40! If you are careful with the design and avoid all sorts of extensions and going overboard with skylights and insulation, the dome will save you money, typically around $10.00 per square foot. You need to remember in the design of your dome that extensions are essentially square/rectangle construction and thus do not have the same materials or energy efficiency characteristics of the dome. Domes have about 30% less surface area than a standard square/rectangle, reducing your materials needs and the area that you radiate heat from. As you add squares to this shape, however, these advantages go away. Also, you don't need to go overboard on insulation. A 2x4 dome insulated to R15 has the same heat loss characteristics as a standard square/rectangle being built today. A 2x6 dome insulated to R21 or a 2x4 dome with 1" exterior insulation that gets you to about R23 is the equivalent of a super-insulated square/rectangle home today. When you go beyond these insulation levels, the law of diminishing returns really kicks in and you spend more on insulation than you ever will on heating/cooling. Your windows and doors will not cost any more than they would if you were building a square/rectangle, as you should be getting into a design that makes use of standard materials. Look out if someone starts talking custom anything, though. -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:49:50 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brent Verrill Subject: Bucky related stuff in Indianapolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all, I have been lurking on this list for a couple of years. I was wondering if anyone out there knew of any Bucky related landmarks in the Indianapolis area. I'm visiting family here and thought there might be a dome or something around. Thanks in advance, Brent Bullywug@America.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:54:19 -0400 Reply-To: johnskag@kih.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "John N. Skaggs" Organization: db Technology Subject: East KY monolithic, Full Moon Construction? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have any information about a dome being constructed in Irvine, Kentucky by a Full Moon Construction Company? The dome is monolithic and was featured in a regional newspaper article a few months ago. So far I can't locate any info or even a phone number for the construction company. I plan to build a home in a few months and have questions about the monolithic concept and about monolithic contractors in my region (east KY), durability, and relative cost. Any information would be helpful. Thank you, John Skaggs johnskag@kih.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:23:01 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Re: Roofing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks James and others for this thread. No doubt i think more like a do it your selfer, seat of the pants individual. Generally i can appreciate the interest in modular metallic domes. But i doubt anyone has seriously studied the savings of using large aggregate, (4 inch) in concrete, on small scale projects, (with properly innovated tools). Off beat techy stuff and a stubborn artistic diversity of style interests. As to elastomeric materials: i don't recall observing any which certainly last the life of say solid aluminum sheet. Maybe urethanes will prove long lived. Stand up joints are impressively effective when they don't cross the path of shedding water. Shingle style, engineered seams might have a possibility for geodesics even without perfectly elastomeric sealants. Specially heavy lapping joints might impart sufficient and durable water tightness (for simultaneous framing and water proofing contribution, and for avoiding heat bridging losses). I've lived in my basilica dome for 16 years, now. It's a translucent dome which i regard much as a solar, envelope attic. (Long story as to construction experience). Eventually i plan to describe what i've learned on my web site. My focus has been very wide across many building interests and as a hand to mouth builder who increasingly avoided wood, due to the mismanagement of forests generally. Bo @kinson http://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:38:17 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Jonathan B. Thompson" Subject: Re: Bucky related stuff in Indianapolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a dome home on Indiana 267 (I think that's the road) another one off of I-65 (not seen it myself, yet) and there is a 4f icosahedron based monkey bars, quite colorful, at an elementary school off of Stop 11 road in Greenwood. Otherwise, Indianapolis is incredibly traditional and conservative in its views and practices. I've lived in Indianapolis for about a year, and lived in Terre Haute for 4 years before that. You really have to look. You won't find dome homes in a neighborhood, because of all the restrictive covenants and the "Don't rock the Boat" mentality. ---------- > From: Brent Verrill > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Bucky related stuff in Indianapolis > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 5:49 PM > > Hi all, > > I have been lurking on this list for a couple of years. I was wondering > if anyone out there knew of any Bucky related landmarks in the > Indianapolis area. I'm visiting family here and thought there might be a > dome or something around. > > Thanks in advance, > Brent > > Bullywug@America.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:30:42 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Johnson Organization: Natural Spaces Domes Subject: Re: Bucky related stuff in Indianapolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent Verrill wrote > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Bucky related stuff in Indianapolis > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 5:49 PM > > Hi all, > > I have been lurking on this list for a couple of years. I was wondering > if anyone out there knew of any Bucky related landmarks in the > Indianapolis area. I'm visiting family here and thought there might be a > dome or something around. > > Thanks in advance, > Brent > Brent Sorry for the delay in getting this post to you. We have 10 - 12 dome homes around Central Indiana. You should contact our dealer DOMEWORKS (Carolyn & Steve Phillips), 812-446-1610 4774 West HWY 40, Brazil, IN 47834 Most of the domes are private residences and some of these may not be available to be seen. A very nice dome structure that I'm sure you can visit is the Assembly of God church located in Greencastle, IN., about 35 miles west of Indianapolis and 7 miles north of I-70 (on the east side before you get into Greencastle). The church has double 74' diameter, 6 frequency, mid profile domes. The main sanctuary dome seats 350 on the main floor and 150 in the balcony. Steve Phillips is also currently building a dome near Brazil, IN., about 20 miles west of Greencastle. He also lives in one. Other domes in Central Indiana are located near: Carmel Knightstown Fountaintown Trafalgar (church camp) Terre Haute (2 domes) Rockville Bloomfield Henryville French Lick Steve should have information on these dome homes and which ones can be seen. He may also have info on a few others. Or you can contact me at 800-733-7107. Happy dome viewing Dennis Odin Johnson http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 23:30:03 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Finleyja Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Backyard dome A few years ago Popular Science Magazine published plans for a simple dome that could be used for camping or as a playhouse. It was made of hardboard hexagons and pentagons. Each panel was joined at the corners by sheet metal connectors. The edges (dihedrals ?) were sealed with vinyl tape. Does anyone have plans for similar domes? Maybe even domes made of cardboard? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 10:58:27 -0700 Reply-To: oregon@ordata.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc. Subject: Re: Bucky related stuff in Indianapolis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We've built a few doms out in Indiana, the latest was raised about a moth ago in Montecello. We've never had much troubles with neighborhood CC&R's. The domes can conform to all the requirements and even take on the look of some of the square/rectangles if they have to to get approval. Very rarely are they so restrictive that demonstrating the beauty of the finished project and a long record of completion by contractor and manufacturer does not put you in their favor. Jonathan B. Thompson wrote: > > There is a dome home on Indiana 267 (I think that's the road) another one > off of I-65 (not seen it myself, yet) and there is a 4f icosahedron based > monkey bars, quite colorful, at an elementary school off of Stop 11 road in > Greenwood. Otherwise, Indianapolis is incredibly traditional and > conservative in its views and practices. I've lived in Indianapolis for > about a year, and lived in Terre Haute for 4 years before that. You really > have to look. You won't find dome homes in a neighborhood, because of all > the restrictive covenants and the "Don't rock the Boat" mentality. > > ---------- > > From: Brent Verrill > > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Bucky related stuff in Indianapolis > > Date: Wednesday, July 2, 1997 5:49 PM > > > > Hi all, > > > > I have been lurking on this list for a couple of years. I was wondering > > if anyone out there knew of any Bucky related landmarks in the > > Indianapolis area. I'm visiting family here and thought there might be a > > dome or something around. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Brent > > > > Bullywug@America.net -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 15:44:59 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Blaine DAmico Subject: News Flash: Buckminster Fuller lands on Mars. In-Reply-To: <199706270127.VAA02623@maya.sos.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If you are not following the Pathfinder mission, I STRONGLY recommend that you start now. I will attach a URL list to the end of this e-mail. Synergetic geometry and principles appear to be fundamental to the Pathfinder program. Let's start with the landing module, a tetrahedron whose petals unfold upon landing. The first Synergetics paper model that I assembled (ten years ago) was this very lander. The inherent strength of the tetravertexial form as well as it's unfolding properties (if it had landed on one of it's petals the petal could unfold to right the module) are but two factors that made it a natural choice. While we're landing, how do we cushion the landing forces. Retro rockets? Well, if this had been a well funded program that may have been an option. However, Pathfinder is (as one friend of mine put it) "The 'Government won't give us any money' space program. (See Better, Faster, Cheaper below.) So, instead, the NASA pathfinder scientists surround the module with its natures shock absorbing form a closest sphere packed VE. (Side note... While at first glance this appears to be a two frequency baloon tetrahedron, I think that it is really a Vector equilibrium. Kirby?!?!?) http://mars.sgi.com/mpf/mpfairbags.html "Mars Pathfinder Airbags The Mars Pathfinder airbag system was designed to protect the lander regardless of its orientation upon impact with the surface of the planet. The system also was designed to handle lateral movement as well as vertical descent" It turns out that this cheaper way of landing is less sensitve to terrain problems than landing gear and retrorockets. If it hits a boulder the module just bounces off. This also minimized disturbance of the terrain. Now, as if Synergetic geometric models weren't enough evidence of Fuller's influence on the present and future of space exploration, let's get to force SEEMS to govern all our options, MONEY. Fuller's synergetic economic model is simply "More with Less". The pathfinder mission is a crowning example of what Fuller meant by this. Several years back the US government said, There's not enough money to go around. We have to make some cuts. Nobody really NEEDS a mission to Mars and we need the money for other things. Sorry JPL and NASA but Mars exploration funding is all but gone. This is why my friend calls it "The 'Government won't give us any money' space program. Rather than give up, the NASA/JPL scientists came up with an idea that is becoming a mantra for the executive office. Let's do it "Better, Faster, Cheaper". Synergetics as applied economics is now a proven principle. When committed people are willing "to think outside the box" (and inside and outside of the terahedron) they can DO MORE with LESS resources than anyone (except of course, R. Buckminster Fuller) ever imagined. So stop reading this mail and connect to these sites. See the images and always think and act Synergetically. http://www.cnn.com http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/04/pathfinder.pics.color/index.html http://mars.sgi.com/default.html I haven't been able to get through to the NASA/JPL site but this URL is the Mirror list and they are pretty responsive. www.cnn.com/TECH/9707/04/pathfinder.lands/pathfinder.mirrors.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:07:04 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ranjan Bagchi Organization: Concentric Internet Services Subject: Can geodesic structures be built piecemeal? Hi -- I'm finding myself more and more attracted to geodesic domes. I've sent away for videotapes from various dome-sites I've found on the web and have been lurking on the newsgroup as well. One thing I'm curious about: I'm also a fan of Christoph Alexander's work. One thing he's into is (and I know I'm misrepresenting and encourage correction) a building as a growing thing -- something you can start small with and gradually build into something larger. The classic example (copied from Gabriel's book on Patterns) is the New England Farmhouse: It starts as a small home with a barn out back. As the family grows and the needs of the farm grow, a back room is added to the house, then a canning room, then a room forgrandmal stables are added to the barn, then a wing for milking more cows. Finally the house and barn are connected because it is too difficult to get from the house to the barn in a blizzard. The result is rambling, but each part is well-suited to its needs, each part fits well with the others, and the result is beautiful because it is a living structure with living people inside. The inhabitants are able to modify their environment because each part is built according to familiar patterns of design, use, and construction and because those patterns contain the seeds for piecemeal growth. Curious, -rj ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 05:56:27 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Filip De Vos Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium Subject: Re: News Flash: Buckminster Fuller lands on Mars. Blaine DAmico (damico@GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU) wrote: : If you are not following the Pathfinder mission, I STRONGLY recommend that : you start now. I will attach a URL list to the end of this e-mail. : Synergetic geometry and principles appear to be fundamental to : the Pathfinder program. [big snip] I invite you to crosspost this to sci.space.policy Faster Cheaper Better is a regular topic there. It is my view that the more general ideas of Buckmister Fuller will be apreciated there, since the environment of space virtually forces one to abandon traditional earth-bound ways. For instance, recently it was mentioned that even on Mars, inhabited structures will be under tension because of the internal airpressure. That means that traditional earth-bound building rules (structures in compression, held down by their own weight) are virtually useless. best regards, -- Filip De Vos The idea that space travel is inherently enormously expensive is fraudulent. FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be John S. Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 12:12:20 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Finleyja Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Backyard domes Several years ago, Popular Mechanics Magazine published plans for a simple hex/pent dome made of hardboard. The vertices were connected with sheet metal connectors and the edges were sealed with vinyl tape. It was to be suitable as a playhouse or as a semipermanent camp shelter. Does anyone have similar plans? Perhaps of a cardboard dome? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:15:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: short essay re design science initiatives Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another Turtle Walk: An Inventorying of Relevant Experiences by Kirby Urner for Design Science Central July 7, 1997 In Synergetics, Fuller writes about how entropy is real and irreversible (as per experience) in that antientropy is not a simple mirror, canceling by simply opposing, but is rather a complex inside outing.[1] The same thought is expressed in his 'changing what you think less and less' vis-a-vis an exploding inventory of special case experiences to think through (as per a growing tetrahedron of successive chrono- shells). So I'm imagining this toon wherein the Chako tetrays demonstrate the entropic expansion of multiplication-by- division on the one hand, while the flipside-toon does something counter, moving us, in principle, toward a unified spherical experience terminus. This spherical terminus would likely be painted with a yin-yang (ala baseball motif) which links us to Design Science Central (Northern Pacific Railroad motif).[2] Design Science is convergent anchoring metaphysics vis-a-vis an explosive, randomized physical trajectory through time. The eternal balances the temporal, not by countering it at 180 degrees (simple countering e.g. flat-out denial) but via precession -- is a lot of what Synergetics aims to convey. In countering entropy, intelligence optimizes edges to contain chaotic expansion just a little, keeping us from going over the brink and instead in a space where we can wear our thinking caps and make a difference. Sustaining a triple-phase condition of solid-liquid-gas all present is freedom- curtailing i.e. according to Lynn Margulis & Co life is spontaneously adaptive around a thin line of parameters that need to be kept in disequilibrium suitable for 'riding the energy wave' deriving from our sun. Humans are not guaranteed a free ride on this wave however -- only a thinking responsive- ness, a demonstration that we are consciously aware of our local problem solver role, will ensure our place in the sun. Life disperses heat, even as it complexifies to do so. In facilitating the dispersement of solar credits (energy incomes), life ascends a pyramid towards convergent comprehension, as greater insight into the generalized principles is required to complexify successfully -- this because coordinated behavior is related to speed, the ability to keep changing course at a high rate in response to feedback. For humans to respond effectively to their increasingly complex environment, clear information at multiple levels (from raw detail to high level summarizing viewpoints) must be accessible. The internet and telecommunications-based global university infrastructure (including those inventory items furnished by design science engineers, working off prototypes supplied in the Fuller syllabus and elsewhere) is about giving individual humans enough relevant data to bring decision-making up to speed. Deliberate polluting of the information pool with a lot of obstructive misinformation, for the purpose of keeping certain games running very much at the expense of the long-term liveli- hoods of many others, including many as yet unborn, is becoming increasingly infeasible as self-informative omnitriangulating pinpoints the polluters and exposes their subtrefuges.[3] In the meantime, ideologies which promote downgrading or obstructing the quality of information available via global university circuits, effectively marginalize themselves to the point of irrelevance. People naturally gravitate to ideologies which open their senses to clear and relevant information, even if the information is disturbing and undermining of status quo conditions. People want to survive, and know they have a better chance if operating on a truthful platform. Systems built on cheating and lying at a deep level are self-destructive. Design science is about building new systems to take up the slack as the more pollutive operational centers get tuned out, owing to their nonconvergent strategies. In many cases, older templates may be recycled successfully, sometimes with only minor changes -- but many institutionalized contrivances are simply too buggy to be worth fixing and may be allowed to follow decaying trajectories (active 'pushing aside' is mostly unnecessary -- the focus is on recycling and reusing to create new systems, not on destroying the already self-destructive ones). Kirby 4D Solutions [1] 229.10: The principle of irreversibility states that the evolutionary process is irreversible locally in physical "time-space" -- that is, in frequency and angle definitioning, because the antientropic metaphysical world is not a mirror- imaged reversal of the entropic physical world's disorderly expansiveness. (Synergetics) [2] http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ [3] this is not to say that work in progress can't or shouldn't be veiled, or that everyone needs to be privy to the plans of every other circle in great technical detail. Information, like energy, is valved. But some information circuitry is less about prototyping and optimizing, prior to more public sharing, than about scamming and bilking those sans the requisite insights. Stage magicians have this professional right to deceive, as do other brands of illusionist. Life gives a large scope to fiction and make-believe, to simulation and game playing. But systematic prevarication with an eye towards depriving others of life support for selfish gain, is becoming ever more difficult to sustain -- the global university is highly self-informing and all of us become its eyes and ears, ready to share what we've discovered and sound the alarm if necessary, given what we know of the evolving big picture. ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 22:25:42 -0400 Reply-To: TheMiller@TheImageMill.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bill DeWitt Subject: Math Challenged Newbie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am trying to make an animation of a Dyson Sphere in the final moments of it's creation. I hope to have the various sections orbit into place all at the same time. I have decided to make it a geodesic type sphere so that all the sections can be the same size and shape. Here's the hard part. I have to be able to calculate the center of each peice. I am using POV-Ray which would use fairly straight forward language to place and rotate the object, such as... object { UNIT rotate < 10,20,30 > //xyz in degrees translate < sin(I*(2*pi))*Radius, Y, Z > }//end object UNIT But I don't seem to be able to intuit the needed math to fill in the rotate and translate vectors. Worse, I probably won't be able to understand a clear concise mathematical explanation so I will need a long, drawn out, laymans version. Any volunteers? I can promise eternal gratitude... -- The Image Mill Complete Graphics and WEB Service Featuring GIF89a Animations http://www.TheImageMill.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:00:28 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Finleyja Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: cardboard dome I need simple cardboard hex/pent dome plans for a playhouse or one that can be "fiberglassed" for use for storage, doghouse, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 23:09:37 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: James Fischer Subject: Re: Math Challenged Newbie Comments: To: geodesic@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" TheMiller@TheImageMill.com asked: >I am trying to make an animation of a Dyson Sphere in the final moments >of it's creation. I hope to have the various sections orbit into place >all at the same time. I have decided to make it a geodesic type sphere >so that all the sections can be the same size and shape. Sounds like a fun animation. Rather than fighting the problem, try thinking backwards: 1) Assemble the sphere. 2) Use rotate/translate commands to move groups of components in some manner consistent with something that would not be a gross violation of the laws of physics while still creating a "pleasing" effect. (For example, think of a spiraling motion, where everything moves out wards and counter-clockwise from the center of the assembled sphere. For fun, different parameters could be applied to different groups of "panels", so that it looks semi-random.) 3) Snapshot the process at various points. 4) Assemble the animation with frames in reverse order. 5) Bask in the wonder and praise. 6) Show us all the results. Also, normal orbital paths will not allow the parts to "fall into place", since the basic rules of newtonian mechanics would create nasty collisions between various parts long before the magic moment when everything is in place. If you want to get all components to "drift" together, you are gonna need to fudge your physics a bit, imagine that the parts were "tossed" from different points, and that there is no major planet/star/whatever nearby to create any "pull" on the parts. So throw out your orbital mechanics text, and just have fun. If you run into trouble, I can model the motion in MicroStation for you and output some wireframes that you can render. I am not sure, but I think that MicroStation's "fly-through" animation files are incompatible with anything else. When Scientists Get Drunk, We Dance On Periodic And Logarithmic Tables james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:07:11 -0400 Reply-To: TheMiller@TheImageMill.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bill DeWitt Subject: Re: Math Challenged Newbie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for your response! Actually your suggestion to throw out the orbital mechanics is exactly what I did, except I never threw them in! My plan was to just reduce the radius of the translation of each peice while rotating the whole thing. So those sections at the poles would just spin and fall while equatorial sections would seem to spiral in. My problem is more in knowing where to place the various triangles in their final position. What I need is either the xyz co-ordinates of the centers of each triangle in a geodesic sphere of unit size, or a way of calculating them on the fly, along with a rotational vector for each peice. I am working on assembling hexagons/pentagons out of the individual peices, but even when I get those I still will need the centers of -them- on a unit sphere... Why, oh why, didn't I pay attention in school... James Fischer wrote: > > TheMiller@TheImageMill.com asked: > > >I am trying to make an animation of a Dyson Sphere in the final moments > >of it's creation. I hope to have the various sections orbit into place > >all at the same time. I have decided to make it a geodesic type sphere > >so that all the sections can be the same size and shape. > > Sounds like a fun animation. > > Rather than fighting the problem, try thinking backwards: > > 1) Assemble the sphere. > > 2) Use rotate/translate commands to move groups of > components in some manner consistent with something > that would not be a gross violation of the laws of > physics while still creating a "pleasing" effect. > (For example, think of a spiraling motion, where > everything moves out wards and counter-clockwise > from the center of the assembled sphere. For fun, > different parameters could be applied to different > groups of "panels", so that it looks semi-random.) > > 3) Snapshot the process at various points. > > 4) Assemble the animation with frames in reverse > order. > > 5) Bask in the wonder and praise. > > 6) Show us all the results. > > Also, normal orbital paths will not allow the parts to "fall > into place", since the basic rules of newtonian mechanics > would create nasty collisions between various parts long > before the magic moment when everything is in place. If > you want to get all components to "drift" together, you > are gonna need to fudge your physics a bit, imagine that > the parts were "tossed" from different points, and that > there is no major planet/star/whatever nearby to create any > "pull" on the parts. > > So throw out your orbital mechanics text, and just have fun. > > If you run into trouble, I can model the motion in MicroStation > for you and output some wireframes that you can render. I am > not sure, but I think that MicroStation's "fly-through" animation > files are incompatible with anything else. > > When Scientists Get Drunk, We Dance On Periodic And Logarithmic Tables > > james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com -- The Image Mill Complete Graphics and WEB Service Featuring GIF89a Animations http://www.TheImageMill.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 14:06:50 -0700 Reply-To: oregon@ordata.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc. Subject: Re: Can geodesic structures be built piecemeal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Domes can certainly be built in this manner, and it has been dome quite a bit. The reason that there is a focus on building singular larger structure is cost and building efficiency. Quite simply, building in sections means that you are paying for more than one foundation, more tham one roof, and you are ignoring the efficiency that the dome imposes on you if tou follow its form strictly. You take on the cost and materials characteristics of a standard square/rectangle building. You also take on the energy efficiency characteristics of the square/rectangle structure. Now, it is sometimes not feasable or even desireable to build a single big structure first and finish the interior over time and so multiple dome structure is a good option While you may not see the savings and energy efficiencies of a larger dome, you wouldn't be paying more than if you had built a square/rectangle and would retain the feel of the dome as well as the disaster fitness. -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 22:02:54 +1200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Cath Sheard Subject: John Rich & Dome Plans - cont ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ps - we still can't receive any messages - no credit to Telecom NZ. Cath ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:10:20 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: NetWorld Game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: World Game Institute > To: Joe S. Moore > Subject: NetWorld Game > Date: Monday, June 30, 1997 08:16 AM > > Hi Joe thanks for inquiring about NetWorld Game. We are going to be testing > the game on July 7 and depending on how the tests go we will be releasing a > general beta and invite people to play on it. So a quess would be mid July. > I will keep your email address and let you know when it is ready to play. > > Steve > > > World Game Institute > 3215 Race Street > Philadelphia PA 19104 > > Phone (215) 387-0220 > Fax (215) 387-3009 > Email: wgi@worldgame.org > Web: http://www.worldgame.org/~wgi > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:30:57 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Jonathan B. Thompson" Subject: Re: Math Challenged Newbie Comments: To: TheMiller@TheImageMill.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How about this plan instead? Start from the finished product, and "explode" the whole thing, starting out with the correct coordinates at the explosion, and just rotate the crap out of the element triangle faces. Exactly how you do the transformation is up to your discretion, of course, but much easier to start with known good coordinates and wreck them than the other way around. Use the DOME program written by (would you believe I forgot his name?!! Sorry!) but I suspect you already have it, and get the end coordinates that way. It does break them rather nicely into the individual faces for all of the small triangles that compose the major triangles. I don't know what frequency of sphere your wishing to create. May I strongly suggest (based on my own renderings, see http://home.earthlink.net/~coolbear/ for examples) that doing a large complexity sphere may be heavier on resources than you can afford to throw at something of unknown results. Look at the time involved for just the rendering of those pictures, and keep in mind that you are doing the animation. Under NT, I was using about 25% of my CPU, which means, because I was using about 100+ megs ram for the parsing and 86 megs for the actual rendering once it parsed, I could have done it in about an hour had I had 96 megs of real ram. The slow down was due to virtual memory speeds, of which mine are actually pretty good. A 486DX-4 100 with 128 megs of ram would be able to do the same rendering faster than a pentium pro with 16 megs ram, and I am willing to bet dinner (given the descriptions and the file sizes I used) that that would hold true. Of course, actually geting to meet most of the people on this list would be difficult, to say the least. For a machine, my best advice to you would be to spend your money on ram and pack your machine to the limits. The processor speed is only truly relevant once you have enough memory to keep it busy. I am a Software Engineer by trade, and have had sufficient experience that points this out. Have fun! ---------- > From: Bill DeWitt > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Math Challenged Newbie > Date: Tuesday, July 8, 1997 7:07 AM > > Thanks for your response! > Actually your suggestion to throw out the orbital mechanics is exactly > what I did, except I never threw them in! My plan was to just reduce the > radius of the translation of each peice while rotating the whole thing. > So those sections at the poles would just spin and fall while equatorial > sections would seem to spiral in. > My problem is more in knowing where to place the various triangles in > their final position. What I need is either the xyz co-ordinates of the > centers of each triangle in a geodesic sphere of unit size, or a way of > calculating them on the fly, along with a rotational vector for each > peice. > I am working on assembling hexagons/pentagons out of the individual > peices, but even when I get those I still will need the centers of > -them- on a unit sphere... > Why, oh why, didn't I pay attention in school... > > > James Fischer wrote: > > > > TheMiller@TheImageMill.com asked: > > > > >I am trying to make an animation of a Dyson Sphere in the final moments > > >of it's creation. I hope to have the various sections orbit into place > > >all at the same time. I have decided to make it a geodesic type sphere > > >so that all the sections can be the same size and shape. > > > > Sounds like a fun animation. > > > > Rather than fighting the problem, try thinking backwards: > > > > 1) Assemble the sphere. > > > > 2) Use rotate/translate commands to move groups of > > components in some manner consistent with something > > that would not be a gross violation of the laws of > > physics while still creating a "pleasing" effect. > > (For example, think of a spiraling motion, where > > everything moves out wards and counter-clockwise > > from the center of the assembled sphere. For fun, > > different parameters could be applied to different > > groups of "panels", so that it looks semi-random.) > > > > 3) Snapshot the process at various points. > > > > 4) Assemble the animation with frames in reverse > > order. > > > > 5) Bask in the wonder and praise. > > > > 6) Show us all the results. > > > > Also, normal orbital paths will not allow the parts to "fall > > into place", since the basic rules of newtonian mechanics > > would create nasty collisions between various parts long > > before the magic moment when everything is in place. If > > you want to get all components to "drift" together, you > > are gonna need to fudge your physics a bit, imagine that > > the parts were "tossed" from different points, and that > > there is no major planet/star/whatever nearby to create any > > "pull" on the parts. > > > > So throw out your orbital mechanics text, and just have fun. > > > > If you run into trouble, I can model the motion in MicroStation > > for you and output some wireframes that you can render. I am > > not sure, but I think that MicroStation's "fly-through" animation > > files are incompatible with anything else. > > > > When Scientists Get Drunk, We Dance On Periodic And Logarithmic Tables > > > > james fischer jfischer@supercollider.com > > -- > The Image Mill > Complete Graphics and WEB Service > Featuring GIF89a Animations > http://www.TheImageMill.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:04:29 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Global Knowledge -- Sustainable Development Comments: cc: wgi@worldgame.org HELP! :) I mentioned this mailing list before, but still appear to be the only participant with the least inkling of a Design Science/WorldGame approach. To whet your whistle, examples of participants on this list are the WorldBank, UNESCO, various UN committees and field workers all over the developing world. The topic is (in a nutshell) how to improve the world through distributing knowledge (in both directions). This includes deploying internet globally (my own pet interest) but is not exclusively on this topic. Other threads have included how to influence the Grunches to play, how to ensure the north does not swamp southern culture, and how to get around political agendas. The list is an outgrowth of the GK'97 Conference held in Toronto last week, and while the conferences was oppulent and haughty, the list is shaping up to becoming a real means of communications on these issues. Rather than just give you the sign-up instructions, I would rather you go to their website to become better informed: http://www.globalknowledge.org/ Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN -------------------------------------- Innovation is hard to schedule ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 16:21:25 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dev T Britto Subject: the wonderful octet truss In-Reply-To: <199707091604.MAA03229@maya.sos.on.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greetings from the lurking majority. I'm so glad to see (read) people involved in RBF's world, as I have been, more or less on my own, for a couple of decades. I love domes and had the pleasure of actually staying in one last summer (it didn't leak), but I am yet more enamored of another of Bucky's artifacts, the octet truss with its omnidirectional recursions of equilibrated vectors. Amy Edmondson and J Baldwin both inform us that the octet truss is in wide use in architecture today but I only see it rarely, and usually in skybreaks or purely aesthetic contexts (i.e. non-structurally-supportive ones). Is my personal (and admittedly very limited) appraisal indicative of a general underutilization of this marvellous invention? Couldn't it be much more widely used to maximize resources? If so, what's the problem? Building codes? Patents? Difficulty of construction in 60 degree co-ordination? Bureaucratic and industrial inertia? I would appreciate the group's insight into this matter. Dev Britto green cell smasher ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 21:32:12 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HILL Subject: octet trussing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I have seen a stretched octet truss used as the main boom to the heavy lifting cranes used to build large auditoriums here at the university of kansas and as the roof to a car rental in las vegas, but that is about it. stephen m. hill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:23:35 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ross Keatinge Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few years ago I was talking with a good friend who has a masters degree in mechanical engineering. He had never heard of the words "octet truss". :-| -- Ross Keatinge rossk@ihug.co.nz Auckland, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 07:50:06 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Spoken like a true flatlander. >> >Wow, the last time I heard high schools only taught plane geemetry, where >visual thinking is appropriate ---and very unlike my day when solid geometry >was taught after trig. That is, I have never been a flatlander- You may >offer others that title. > I think you're saying that these days ("the last time I heard...") the curriculum has decayed to a purely flatlander one, but in your day solid geometry came after trig (mine too -- the polyhedron stuff came way towards the back though, instead of being front and center throughout, as my curriculum would have it). Your remark about trig being made visual through 'graphing' seemed flatlander though. A triangle inscribed on the beach is on the surface of a sphere (our planet) and defines a very narrow-mouthed tetrahedron with its apex at the earth's center. Kids should learn to see triangles this way, to keep a clear sense of living on a spheroidal earth. The tips of the World Trade Center towers are slightly further apart at the top than at the base -- the towers of a suspension bridge even more so. In other words, the fiction of infinite, nonconvergent parallelism needs to be de-emphasized (way too much Cartesianism in the current curriculum -- instead Descartes should be better known for his discovery of the 720 degree 'angular deficit' -- degrees less than 360 -- summing around all vertices of a convex poly). >I hope that solid geometry is again taught --- prior to analysis -- >or analytical geometry. > I've got my shapes phasing in pre-K with increasing fluency (in tandem with fractions -- links to volumes, dissections) up thru computerization (where we encode shapes in various coordinate systems, including XYZ of course). >> I agree that innumeracy is mostly incompatible with >> democracy. >> > >'mostly incompatible'? Is any woman almost pregnant? > People have ways of getting around handicaps. In some instances, I suppose an innumerant person could depend on a very trustworthy numerant one (kind of like a lot of widows depend on estate laywers) -- but mostly this doesn't work very well (except it works great for those who prey on ignorance). >> Part of the problem is the curriculum divorces geometry >> from computation too early and too severely, leaving >> children to master the mechanics of 'fractions' without >> strong links to polyhedra, which are in turn given short > >'polyhedra'? --- fractions are best taught as a number theory >course --- who is being the flatlander? > Polyhedra aren't flat. Fractions need to be linked to the paradigm polys and number theory needs to work harder to absorb some of the patterns (which involve prime numbers) that come in with spatial patterns, including sphere packing. For example my kids learn about 2PF^2+2 (where P is one or more intermultiplied low primes) and how this maps to spheres packed in various polyhedral conformations, e.g. the cuboctahedral packing is given by 10F^2+2 (P=5). The reason the traditional curriculum doesn't do fractions and polys at the same time is that the Platonic system never came up with the unit-volume tetrahedron next to a duo-tet cube (relative volumes 1:3), from which evolves a rational, whole number accounting system for polys. Instead the text books are fixated on a unit-cube, even though the cube is topologically more complex than the tetrahedron (is not the minimum wireframe enclosure -- which the tetrahedron really is). Kids starting with this more rational, simpler system for the polys have much easier access to spatial relationships and fractional relationships at the same time. Polyhedral dissections, transformations, applications, stay front and center. We're doing sphere packing in 2nd grade and pointing out how oranges get stacked in supermarkets. Then we show a slide of a diamond crystal and relate the two. >> shrift in favor of a 'flatlander' approach. Flatlander >> geometry is frustrating to young minds because the world >> around us is clearly not flat. So early on, the math >> curriculum goes 'out of phase' with lived experience, >> never to re-engage the child's imagination, in many >> cases. >> > >How do you think kids feel when taught fractions without >the fundamental theorem of arithmetic, lcm, gcd and so forth? > Gosh, that's a tough question. a) Queasy? b) Elated? c) Ripped off? d) None of the above? My kids get to see how they can dissect a cube into a tetrahedron (6 face diagonals) plus 4 1/8th octahedra. The octahedron has a volume of 4 -- so the cube must be volume 3 (given the tetra- hedron is 1). We're doing simple fractions here: 4*1/8 + 1 = 3, plus showing them with shapes. We show the octahedron's volume is 4 using the 'power rule': as the linear dimensions of a shape doubles (x2), its surface area increases four-fold (2x2) and volume goes up 8 times (2x2x2) -- so given a 2-frequency tetrahedron dissects into 4 tetrahedra of half the edge length (ergo 1/8th volume) plus 1 octahedron, it follows the octahedron must have 4 times the small tet's volume (since the bigger tet has 8 times the little tets' volumes -- i.e. 4*tet + oct = 8*tet, so oct=4*tet) -- a little hard to follow in ASCII I realize, but very clear when pouring water between plastic shapes, running animations on the video screen and so on. This is the kind of stuff I go over in my memo to the NCMT. Teachers should know this stuff. At least that's what my home schoolers think. I tell them most USA classroom math teachers don't know what an A module is and they think I'm joking. Kirby PS: of course we still have plenty of time for the fundamental theorem of arithmetic, lcm, gcd and so forth -- this isn't either/or logic, just a phase-in of some very wholesome content that should have been in better focus 20 years ago, when we might have felt under less pressure to shift gears in such a hurry (maybe you don't feel it -- but I know I'm not alone). ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:12:12 -0400 Reply-To: TheMiller@TheImageMill.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bill DeWitt Subject: Dyson Sphere Animation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those who sent me suggestions and help, and those who asked to see my result, I have posted my first attempt at an animation of the final stages of the assembly of a Dyson Sphere as an animated GIF (102 kb) at... http://home.theone.net/bdewitt/Dyson01.gif ...Thanks for your help and I will post the final version when it is done. Since I have a lot of work to do and even when I'm done... well this one took 20 hours to render so I imagine it will be a while... don't wait up... -- The Image Mill Complete Graphics and WEB Service Featuring GIF89a Animations http://www.TheImageMill.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:16:26 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: ActionVerb Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: News Flash: Buckminster Fuller lands on Mars. I was recently chanel surfing with a satellite TV dish and saw a report on a robot being developed for space exploration which "walked" by unfolding panels of its geometric shape. I didn't have a blank video tape at the time so this is from my (less than perfect) memory, but it seemed awfully Fuller-esque. Anyone have any further info on this? --Steve Henck "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" -- Albert Einstein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:09:43 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Milo Gardner Organization: California State University Sacramento Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET In-Reply-To: <33c48862.191228544@news.teleport.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kirby: I do agree with you on two points. Flatlander metaphors that do not attempt to teach three and higher dimension space are sad in several respects. Second, Platonic versions of number when spoken as historical is another sad metaphor for our schools. Plato never discussed number as the modern neo-Platonic types stress so early in our school kids studies, hidding number and number theory needed to learn fractions from our 'at risk' kids. On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Kirby Urner wrote: (snip) > I think you're saying that these days ("the last time I heard...") > the curriculum has decayed to a purely flatlander one, but in your > day solid geometry came after trig (mine too -- the polyhedron > stuff came way towards the back though, instead of being front > and center throughout, as my curriculum would have it). > Your point may be appropriate -- however, you have not clearly stated when number is to be taught. Yes, number in several of its forms --- geometry can not be computed without numbers. > Your remark about trig being made visual through 'graphing' seemed > flatlander though. A triangle inscribed on the beach is on the > surface of a sphere (our planet) and defines a very narrow-mouthed > tetrahedron with its apex at the earth's center. Kids should learn Discrete math has many faults. The values of continuous math -- as introduced by calculus is intended to overcome many of the oversights that you appear to want to solve --- too early. > to see triangles this way, to keep a clear sense of living on a > spheroidal earth. The tips of the World Trade Center towers are > slightly further apart at the top than at the base -- the towers > of a suspension bridge even more so. > > In other words, the fiction of infinite, nonconvergent parallelism > needs to be de-emphasized (way too much Cartesianism in the current > curriculum -- instead Descartes should be better known for his > discovery of the 720 degree 'angular deficit' -- degrees less > than 360 -- summing around all vertices of a convex poly). > To do this in a computational manner, non-Euclidean geometry and its range of two parallel lines become a point at infinity (in one of the alternatives to Euclid's flatlander view) must be introduced. And how can any computation be introduced without a rigorous definition of arithmetic? Here I stress the rational and higher order numbers, concepts that you seem to skim. > >I hope that solid geometry is again taught --- prior to analysis -- > >or analytical geometry. > > > > I've got my shapes phasing in pre-K with increasing fluency (in > tandem with fractions -- links to volumes, dissections) up thru > computerization (where we encode shapes in various coordinate > systems, including XYZ of course). > And how about the issues of the weaknesses of base 10 decimals where 1/p must be rounded off? Note my post on the binary statement of rational numbers --- a historical subject that your kids may enjoy -- even if you may not! > >> I agree that innumeracy is mostly incompatible with > >> democracy. > >> > > > >'mostly incompatible'? Is any woman almost pregnant? > > > > People have ways of getting around handicaps. In some > instances, I suppose an innumerant person could depend > on a very trustworthy numerant one (kind of like a lot > of widows depend on estate laywers) -- but mostly this > doesn't work very well (except it works great for those > who prey on ignorance). > > >> Part of the problem is the curriculum divorces geometry > >> from computation too early and too severely, leaving > >> children to master the mechanics of 'fractions' without > >> strong links to polyhedra, which are in turn given short > > Hmmm, computation is not taught at all, in a rigorous manner (outside of the silly fingers and toes of Piaget) -- what do you mean divorced --- the patient died years ago. > >'polyhedra'? --- fractions are best taught as a number theory > >course --- who is being the flatlander? > > > > Polyhedra aren't flat. > > Fractions need to be linked to the paradigm polys and number > theory needs to work harder to absorb some of the patterns > (which involve prime numbers) that come in with spatial > patterns, including sphere packing. For example my kids > learn about 2PF^2+2 (where P is one or more intermultiplied > low primes) and how this maps to spheres packed in various > polyhedral conformations, e.g. the cuboctahedral packing is > given by 10F^2+2 (P=5). > > The reason the traditional curriculum doesn't do fractions > and polys at the same time is that the Platonic system There are many problems withe the Platonic system, as you fairly stated. > never came up with the unit-volume tetrahedron next to > a duo-tet cube (relative volumes 1:3), from which evolves > a rational, whole number accounting system for polys. > Instead the text books are fixated on a unit-cube, even > though the cube is topologically more complex than the > tetrahedron (is not the minimum wireframe enclosure -- > which the tetrahedron really is). > > Kids starting with this more rational, simpler system for > the polys have much easier access to spatial relationships > and fractional relationships at the same time. Polyhedral > dissections, transformations, applications, stay front > and center. We're doing sphere packing in 2nd grade and > pointing out how oranges get stacked in supermarkets. > Then we show a slide of a diamond crystal and relate > the two. > > >> shrift in favor of a 'flatlander' approach. Flatlander > >> geometry is frustrating to young minds because the world > >> around us is clearly not flat. So early on, the math > >> curriculum goes 'out of phase' with lived experience, > >> never to re-engage the child's imagination, in many > >> cases. > >> > > > >How do you think kids feel when taught fractions without > >the fundamental theorem of arithmetic, lcm, gcd and so forth? > > > > Gosh, that's a tough question. > > a) Queasy? > b) Elated? > c) Ripped off? > d) None of the above? > Your humor is off base! You really don't know what I am talking about. I am talking about the 75% failure rate of our 4th graders to compute with fractions, rational numbers, inside and outside of base 10 decimals. Today only 25% of the kids learn to compute inside of base 10 decimals, and a far few % outside of decimals. Asian kids do not have that type of failure rate -- only 10% inside of base decimals, and not much lower outsider of our sloppy rounded decimal system. > My kids get to see how they can dissect a cube into a tetrahedron > (6 face diagonals) plus 4 1/8th octahedra. The octahedron has > a volume of 4 -- so the cube must be volume 3 (given the tetra- > hedron is 1). We're doing simple fractions here: 4*1/8 + 1 = 3, > plus showing them with shapes. > > We show the octahedron's volume is 4 using the 'power rule': > as the linear dimensions of a shape doubles (x2), its surface > area increases four-fold (2x2) and volume goes up 8 times (2x2x2) > -- so given a 2-frequency tetrahedron dissects into 4 tetrahedra > of half the edge length (ergo 1/8th volume) plus 1 octahedron, > it follows the octahedron must have 4 times the small tet's > volume (since the bigger tet has 8 times the little tets' > volumes -- i.e. 4*tet + oct = 8*tet, so oct=4*tet) -- a little > hard to follow in ASCII I realize, but very clear when pouring > water between plastic shapes, running animations on the video > screen and so on. > > This is the kind of stuff I go over in my memo to the NCMT. again it is the NCTM, not the NCMT. > Teachers should know this stuff. At least that's what my > home schoolers think. I tell them most USA classroom math > teachers don't know what an A module is and they think I'm > joking. > > Kirby > > PS: of course we still have plenty of time for the fundamental > theorem of arithmetic, lcm, gcd and so forth -- this isn't > either/or logic, just a phase-in of some very wholesome content So you admit you are teaching to logic rather than mathematics. That is the failed bais of neo-Platonic and Piaget fingers and toes metaphors --- all three produced failed 4th graders than can not keep up with its world-wide peers in computing fractions. > that should have been in better focus 20 years ago, when we > might have felt under less pressure to shift gears in such a > hurry (maybe you don't feel it -- but I know I'm not alone). > Thanks for the discussion, Milo Gardner Sacramento, Calif. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:28:37 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Discrete math has many faults. The values of continuous math -- >as introduced by calculus is intended to overcome many of the >oversights that you appear to want to solve --- too early. > Actually we diverge here too as I'm into discrete math. Nature has a granular, quantized basis, or so our experiments seem to indicate. 'Pure continuity' is a Platonic fantasy about 'impermeable solids'. That being said, I have a lot of problems with how computers introduce gratuitous 'noise digits' when doing floating point math. For example, using Mathcad 6.0 I get: 1.23456789*10^26 - 1.23456777*10^26 = = 1.200000000065955*10^19 1.23456789 - 1.23456777 = 1.199999999368373*10^-7 instead of 1.23456789*10^26 - 1.23456777*10^26 = 1.200000000000000*10^19 1.23456789 - 1.23456777 = 1.200000000000000*10^-7 A result I dislike, consider wrong. On Synergetics-L, my e-list, we've been discussing these issues. Like, I posted to sci.math above re 'How critical is Continuity?' and got some helpful feedback from Don Taylor at Portland State, which went deeper into IEEE standards for floating point ops etc. on my Synergetics-L (archived, web-accessible). But again my bias is to see the computer as a metaphor for nature: just as computers have built-in definite precision, not infinite precision, so does nature not require pi to infinite digits (whatever that means) when dynamically computing a billion bubbles in the blink of an eye in the wake of a ship. > >To do this in a computational manner, non-Euclidean geometry and >its range of two parallel lines become a point at infinity (in >one of the alternatives to Euclid's flatlander view) must be >introduced. And how can any computation be introduced without >a rigorous definition of arithmetic? Here I stress the rational >and higher order numbers, concepts that you seem to skim. > I was talking about a triangle on the beach defining a tetrahedron with an apex at earth's center. Here we have convergence in about 4000 miles (earth's radius). I see no need for 'infinity' here (or anywhere, for that matter). Indeed, my aim in this particular implementation is to keep the calculus (and trig) while tossing both 'infinity' and '1/infinity' as unnecessary to computation, even at the conceptual level. This echoes Bishop Berkley's objections to the calculus when it was first introduced -- he appreciated its utility but felt basing it on infinitesimals was going to lead to a lot of conceptual trouble. The theory of limits was invented partly as a counter-measure, since while Berkley was still alive, mathematicians had a lot of trouble countering his arguments (at least in England, as I recall the French dismissed him as a kook). >And how about the issues of the weaknesses of base 10 decimals >where 1/p must be rounded off? Note my post on the binary >statement of rational numbers --- a historical subject that >your kids may enjoy -- even if you may not! > Even binary expressions must accept upper limits on register length. You've got a definite number of permutations giving unique values (addresses, quantities, differences), even if that number is sufficient to give every grain of sand in the Sahara Desert its own IP address and web page (plus each grain can have an intranet inside if it wants to). I don't regard 'definite limits' as a problem because the universe seems to have them as well, at least at the micro level (and at the macro level too) where 'pure continuity' breaks up into quantized pixels and voxels, just like in computers. I'd like my abstract mathematics to make this 'be OK' instead of always positing a bunch of 'imaginary ideals' which the real world never lives up to, as if just because we think we can imagine 'infinitely many zero dimensional points lining up to make a 1D line' we have to knock reality for not presenting any 'perfect demonstration' of our cockeyed and superstitious beliefs. I realize I'm being polemical (here as elsewhere). Unlike Brian Scott on k12.ed.math, I think 'polemical mathematics' is not necessarily an oxymoron (links to 'ballistics' and 'hitting a moving target' in synergetics). >> >How do you think kids feel when taught fractions without >> >the fundamental theorem of arithmetic, lcm, gcd and so forth? >> > >> >> Gosh, that's a tough question. >> >> a) Queasy? >> b) Elated? >> c) Ripped off? >> d) None of the above? >> > >Your humor is off base! You really don't know what I am talking about. > I'm into representing whole numbers as products of prime factors, and fractions as primes-over-primes, even in computers. To 'simplify fractions' is to cancel common primes. Plus I can feed primes into 2PF^2+2 and link to sphere packing (crystallography, virology, nanotechnology...). We also have something called an LCD triangle in synergetics -- has to do with spin-generated great circle networks and the common, primitive angular basis they provide for doing coordinated ops (Synergetics, a 2 volume work published in 1973, and 1979, tabulates all these central and surface angles -- Bob Gray -- University of Rochester -- has corrected some of the errors in these tables and is working with Synergetics collaborator E.J. Applewhite on bringing the complete text of the 2 volumes to the web next month, last I heard, which will be a big help to our public-private homeschooler networks). >I am talking about the 75% failure rate of our 4th graders to >compute with fractions, rational numbers, inside and outside of >base 10 decimals. I think when pouring water from one polyhedral shape to another (e.g. 24 A mods of water precisely fill a unit-volume tetrahedron, while 48As + 48Bs fill an octahedron with the same edge length as the tet) you're in some sense 'doing fractions' without even getting in to base 10. Of course '48' is a base 10 expression, but you can count with tic marks, or with letters of the alphabet, or represent 48 and such as a patterns of poker chips, like dots on a pair of dice. There's something very primitive about watching a tetrahedron being cut in half, giving two 'chefs hats' with square faces where they were separated. Clearly each is the same and so is 1/2 the original volume, and I'm not really asking you to think 'in a specific base' to see that. On the other hand, I agree with you, 4th graders need exposure to binary expressions. Understanding digit-positioning based on powering of a base number is a very important generalization, and seeing why engineers have to use A-F in addition to 0-9 should be no mystery to any half-educated child. >> This is the kind of stuff I go over in my memo to the NCMT. > >again it is the NCTM, not the NCMT. > Ooops. Oh well, I got it right in the memo, which is on the web. >> PS: of course we still have plenty of time for the fundamental >> theorem of arithmetic, lcm, gcd and so forth -- this isn't >> either/or logic, just a phase-in of some very wholesome content > > >So you admit you are teaching to logic rather than mathematics. > I consider a lot of the walls erected between the so-called disciplines to be highly artificial and damaging to the integrity of the curriculum. Boolean logic is central to computing these days -- some fun little Apple 2e programs I used with my so-called talented and gifted kids (6th graders) worked well to bring these areas together. We hear a lot of hype about how mathematics should work harder to integrate with history, science, languages whatever. Well, here's a curriculum that's a lot more than just hype: I've got buckminsterfullerene, virus morphology, cartography, crystallography, polyhedral geometry and computer logic- switching all rolled into a very tightly interwoven package, with lots more besides. I'm not at all interested and exploding it back apart into 'math class' over here and 'computer class' over there and 'science class' yet somewhere else. That dark ages trivium-quadrivium stuff is for the birds. >all three produced failed 4th graders than can not keep up with >its world-wide peers in computing fractions. ^^^^^^^^^^ We say 'world-around' in my curriculum (even some interest in changing the World Wide Web to 'World Around Web' -- using an O for arOund, giving the acronym WOW (see WOW icon at my synhome.html)). >> that should have been in better focus 20 years ago, when we >> might have felt under less pressure to shift gears in such a >> hurry (maybe you don't feel it -- but I know I'm not alone). >> > >Thanks for the discussion, > Yes, enjoyable. I've been getting some fun fall-out emails from lurkers. Clearly this has been of some value, but is now about to scroll out of sight into archives. Maybe we'll continue some of these threads somewhere down the road -- or at some symposium. I'm about to go out the door to plan an ISEPP workshop I'll be leading for math teachers from all over. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:52:13 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: Dome in Bayonne Comments: cc: DOMES _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: seryan > To: John Belt > Cc: Joe Moore ; Lee Johnson > Subject: Re: Dome in Bayonne > Date: Saturday, June 28, 1997 05:01 AM > > 06/28/97 > > John, > > Thanks for the tip about the dome in NJ. I have been to the web site and > was impressed > with the "look" of the dome. I don't know if I could get up there, but > it's possible. > > John, I'm a native of Florida and now live on the Gulf Coast, fifty miles > south of Tampa. > My father was an architect, builder/developer. During the fifties and > sixties he built hundreds > of homes on the west coast of Florida and in Miami. Later as a sales rep > for Bostitch Staple > company, in Miami, our office sold pneumatic nail and staple guns and > fasteners to the home > builders in south Florida. Then I went to work for Automated Building > Components, ABCom Systems, the Florida company that pioneered the press-on > roof truss-plate. > > Several years ago, I was chosen participate in a national study, in > Washington D.C. on single family residential homes sponsored by FANNIE MAE > and conducted by Dr. Ernst Dichter, PhD, (from upstate NY, your part of the > world). So with this history I am very interested in single family housing. > > Now, as the American worker finds himself firmly in the Information Age and > suffering loss > of jobs from GATT, NAFTA, open borders and a loss of corporate loyalty to > employees, called downsizing, the dream of owning a single family > residence is being pushed further and further away. If the cost of > materials could be lowered by standardizing materials and mass producing > them, and if materials could be easily handled by one or two persons, maybe > it would be possible to build your own home. > > When I first found out about Bucky Fuller, I was fascinated. The dome > seemed like a perfect structure. Less building materials, clear spans, > lowered exposure, wonderful acoustics and aerodynamic resistance. Wind > resistance is important in Florida, since hurricanes take roofs off houses > like orange peels. Hurricanes have become more and more powerful yet it > seems like aerodynamics is ignored by most architects. And even if the > structure is built to code, there is a strong chance a hurricane will blow > out the windows and lift off the roof [or the other way around], anyway. > The staples I sold to hold sheathing on were up to code, but after > Hurricane Andrew, those roofs are now in the everglades.) > > I've been "developing" an idea for a dome home for several years. The dome > home I envision, is a full sphere and will resist most hurricanes. The home > is elevated above the ground, to be immune to flooding. The equator deck is > the main level, below is a deck for life support, HVAC, holding tanks, etc. > Above is a loft deck. If there was budget for it, there would be a deck at > the equator level. > > The sphere is made of triangular trays made of fiberglass. The trays are > translucent and others are solid or clear. The sphere could be located on > any type of "unsuitable" lower cost land. It could be located on the side > of a slope, or above a swamp. > > I didn't like the wooden domes, too much labor, and later, maintenance. I > wondered about aluminum extrusions, all computer cut, with triangular > panels. But that would be a lot of pieces, and a lot of work. Then I > thought of fiberglass panels, with a lip, or flange to make a tray. I've > figured out how to fasten the trays together and how to "mount" the whole > thing so it won't roll away. I have a friend in Tampa who is a CAD desgner, > he is working on a drawing of the "tray" for me. Then we'll see how much it > will cost to mass produce them, then I have to figure out how to compute > for the number of trays it will take to build a sphere of x feet in > diameter, etc. > > I'd like to see Americans build dome homes by the thousands. The company > that sells them the trays, might make a little money but the housing needs > of millions of people would be satisfied. > > Thanks for taking the time to write me and I wish you well. > > Steve > sheintz@usa.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:39:20 -0700 Reply-To: loushery@pacbell.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: loushery@PACBELL.NET Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is no such thing as an "at Risk' kid only an adult at risk of loosing their job and looking for an excuse. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:36:33 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Milo Gardner Organization: California State University Sacramento Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET In-Reply-To: <33C59CD8.64A5@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 10 Jul 1997 loushery@pacbell.net wrote: > There is no such thing as an "at Risk' kid only an adult at risk of > loosing their job and looking for an excuse. > > Funny man. I wonder why our schools use the term 'at risk' to classify kids that tend to attend summer migrant education classes to catch up? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:00:17 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ernie Aiken Organization: CyberNews Network Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss I see octet type truss structures everywhere I go. Some are more for design appeal than function as on storefronts; Best Buy, Home Depot etc. My favorites i can remember are on the highway signs (mostly in the northeast), the Biosphere 2 and the McDonald Observatory HET radio spectroscopic telescope which see also is housed inside a fantastic geodesic dome. It's about time. Who built it? I was too glad to see it because originally the geodesic observatory wasn't planned. http://hyperion.as.utexas.edu/mcdonald/mcdonald.html Dev T Britto wrote in article ... > Greetings from the lurking majority. I'm so glad to see (read) > people involved in RBF's world, as I have been, more or less on my own, > for a couple of decades. > I love domes and had the pleasure of actually staying in one last summer > (it didn't leak), but I am yet more enamored of another of Bucky's > artifacts, the octet truss with its omnidirectional recursions of > equilibrated vectors. > Amy Edmondson and J Baldwin both inform us that the octet truss is in > wide > use in architecture today but I only see it rarely, and usually in > skybreaks or purely aesthetic contexts (i.e. non-structurally-supportive > ones). > Is my personal (and admittedly very limited) appraisal indicative > of a general underutilization of this marvellous invention? Couldn't it > be much more widely used to maximize resources? If so, what's the problem? > Building codes? Patents? Difficulty of construction in 60 degree > co-ordination? Bureaucratic and industrial inertia? > I would appreciate the group's insight into this matter. > > Dev Britto > green cell smasher > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:07:32 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Herman Rubin Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET In article <33C59CD8.64A5@pacbell.net>, wrote: >There is no such thing as an "at Risk' kid only an adult at risk of >loosing their job and looking for an excuse. On the contrary, the children who we put in our "educational" institutions are at risk of having their mental abilities severely reduced. They are also at risk of losing years of their life in lost time. It shows in what we have to deal with later. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:15:02 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dev T Britto Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss In-Reply-To: <01bc8db5$a958d720$5fa637cf@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My query regarding the common usage of the octet truss was not purely "wondering". You see, I am very interested in developing a system by which said artifact can be manufactured cheaply and distributed widely. If wide distribution is already present, there isn't much point in such an attempt. But I suspect that there is an enormous untapped potential out there for a product that uses very little material yet may outperform conventional products. A closely analogous example is the development of trussed rafters for roofs of single-family dwellings. Once they caught on they revolutionized (or at least "evolutionized") the housing industry. Interestingly, here also was a use of triangulation to increase performance on a pound per pound basis. But the application is limited to two-dimensional triangulation; what we propose with the octet truss is three (four?) dimensions of support. The need to do more with less impinges directly on our relationship with the natural environment. I live in British Columbia, Canada, where old growth forest is disappearing at an apalling rate. It appears that the only way out of the socio-economic-political dilemma is to add value to forest products. This concept gets more lip service than action, but I see (albeit with as yet blurry vision) a Fullerian solution: to make octet trusses from finely machined wood. Doing so we address issues of human wealth and forestral sustainability, all within a context of energetic-synergetic goeometry. I feel a bit like Don Quixote here, sallying forth into unknown lands (does the G.R.U.N.C.H. of Giants have anything to do with windmills?). If anyone has any words of caution or advice I would appreciate hearing from you. Dev Britto cell smasher ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 16:54:13 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Bottom line... (propaganda from the Fuller School) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit As a follow-up to my many cross-postings in the thread above: [Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world)] here's some conclusory propaganda from the Fuller School. Obviously I'm into seizing the moral high ground, defending a hard liner position blah blah blah... nothing new there. Plus I'm appending a little bio at the bottom. Plus I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you folks playing on our team (lots of strong performances out there) -- I'm pleased to report that we're winning our game, big time. Carry on then. Urner out. ================ Bottom line: the concentric hierarchy, considered purely as a prefrequency 'clockworks', a model, a way of relating polyhedra, is unquestionably an information-packed and wholesome way of presenting a lot of relevant geometrical information. No new scientific discoveries or empirical data are required to establish this fact, which is the case purely as a matter of logic, as informed by aesthetic judgement (a faculty with which humans are well-endowed). I can think of no good reason why schools interested in giving kids a head start in geometry would avoid imparting this very elementary and well-ordered package as an integral part of the everyday curriculum. To _not_ do so is to seriously call into question one's credentials as a serious-minded institution, from the standpoint of propagating geometry within the culture and to children. The fact that over 20 years have elapsed since the publi- cation of the first Synergetics volume in 1975, and yet still we don't have curriculum standards which phase the concentric hierarchy into early childhood experience, is proof positive of academia's dangerously overspecialized state. We're faced with paralysis bordering on rigor mortis. Like, welcome to the valley of death folks. ================ Kirby Urner has experienced mathematics as a high school classroom teacher and as a curriculum writer-reviewer for McGraw-Hill, a text book publisher. Partly as a result of his interest in computer science and philosophy, his focus subjects at Princeton University, he gravitated towards web-based distance learning approaches, serving as the Buckminster Fuller Institute s first webmaster and creating Synergetics on the Web which IBM s website reviewer John R. Quain has praised as "one of the finest and most cohesive Web sites yet created on any subject". Kirby is currently self-employed as a curriculum writer (including for home schoolers) and public service provider for his Portland-based firm, 4D Solutions. ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 14:22:26 -0700 Reply-To: loushery@pacbell.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: loushery@PACBELL.NET Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Because it sounds like somebody in the schools actually cares. Its a great cover all . At risk for what at risk for being a liberal, at risk for being president, at risk etc. Dont wonder think about the posibilities. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:30:07 -0500 Reply-To: levy@[a]execpc.com, "[delete"@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, the@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, "[a]"@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, to@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, "reply]"@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lon Levy Organization: Exec-PC BBS Internet - Milwaukee, WI Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit loushery@pacbell.net wrote: > > There is no such thing as an "at Risk' kid only an adult at risk of > loosing their job and looking for an excuse. I don't think that your statement is quite accurate. I have spent the last two school years at an alternative middle school where all of the children are "at risk". The risks they face are real, including drugs in the neighborhood, a poor history of schoolwork, missing family members, etcetera. This is not to say that other kids face no risks and only the kids with the label are really at risk. Every one of us faces certain risks in our lives. You are right in pointing out that a number of teachers are inadequate in how they handle some of their students, but that does not change the dangers that many kids are facing every day. Regards, Lon. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:45:15 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Clifford J. Nelson" Organization: gte.net Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00015A4C" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00015A4C X-Fontfamily: Palatino X-Fontsize: 12 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The public discussion I am having with John Conway might affect 4th graders someday, unless he finds a hole in my side of the question. --Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00015A4C Content-Type: application/X-url Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: The Math Forum: geometry-research Web Discussion aHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtLnN3YXJ0aG1vcmUuZWR1L2VwaWdvbmUvZ2VvbWV0cnktcmVzZWFy Y2g= --Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00015A4C X-Fontfamily: Palatino X-Fontsize: 12 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cliff Nelson --Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00015A4C-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:27:38 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ernie Aiken Organization: CyberNews Network Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss I see octet truss type structures everywhere I go. Most noteably incorporated in to the facades of Best Buy, Home Depot, etc. more for design than function. Lots of overhead highway signs in the northeast are a single row of octets. My favorites are in the architecture of the Crystal Cathedral, Biosphere 2, Moody Gardens pyramid in Galveston. A spectacular example is the HET truss at McDonald Observatory, which is also housed inside a wonderful geodesic dome, which see - http://hyperion.as.utexas.edu/mcdonald/het/het-pictures.html and http://www.ncl.ac.uk/~ngeog/CC/Photos.html and http://www.obieco.com/gallery/`crystal1.htm and http://www.moodygardens.com/pictures.html Dev T Britto wrote in article ... > Greetings from the lurking majority. I'm so glad to see (read) > people involved in RBF's world, as I have been, more or less on my own, > for a couple of decades. > I love domes and had the pleasure of actually staying in one last summer > (it didn't leak), but I am yet more enamored of another of Bucky's > artifacts, the octet truss with its omnidirectional recursions of > equilibrated vectors. > Amy Edmondson and J Baldwin both inform us that the octet truss is in > wide > use in architecture today but I only see it rarely, and usually in > skybreaks or purely aesthetic contexts (i.e. non-structurally-supportive > ones). > Is my personal (and admittedly very limited) appraisal indicative > of a general underutilization of this marvellous invention? Couldn't it > be much more widely used to maximize resources? If so, what's the problem? > Building codes? Patents? Difficulty of construction in 60 degree > co-ordination? Bureaucratic and industrial inertia? > I would appreciate the group's insight into this matter. > > Dev Britto > green cell smasher > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:48:31 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Fischer Subject: subscribe Comments: To: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Content-Type: text/plain _______________________________________________________ Get Private Web-Based Email Free http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 14:20:21 -0400 Reply-To: John Belt Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Belt Subject: HAPPY BIRTHDAY and ANNIVERSARY Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To Allegra and Family, Buckminster Fuller Institute and List Members HAPPY BIRTHDAY and HAPPY WEDDING ANNIVERSARY to Bucky and Anne from inside cover of Critical Path: "Those whom God hath joined together let no one put asunder." To ANNE HEWLETT FULLER on this, our 63rd Wedding Anniversary and my 85 Birthday---July 12, 1980 Being on this list is to celebrate may we continue the celebration. enjoy, john belt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:50:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Backyard dome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Look in my links section under "Shelter/Domes/Tents/.." & also in the Selected Ideas section under "Icosa/Small/.." **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Finleyja > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Backyard dome > Date: Thursday, July 03, 1997 04:30 PM > > A few years ago Popular Science Magazine published plans for a simple dome > that could be used for camping or as a playhouse. It was made of > hardboard hexagons and pentagons. Each panel was joined at the corners by > sheet metal connectors. The edges (dihedrals ?) were sealed with vinyl > tape. Does anyone have plans for similar domes? Maybe even domes made of > cardboard? > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:32:59 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harmon Seaver Organization: Maddog Press Subject: Dome Tents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking thru the latest issue of "Yoga Journal", (which has a nice article on "15 Ways to Simplify Your Life", BTW) I found an ad for Pacific Domes, which shows a very large (30-40 feet?) geodesic framed dome tent, with one side mostly clear. When I did a web search for them, I found a listing under the Hemp Industries Association for the same company, with the same Ashland, OR address and number -- "Manufacturer of quality Hemp homes..." Anybody heard of this outfit and their product? Looks neat. I'll have to call them on Monday. -- Harmon Seaver hseaver@dibbs.net http://www.dibbs.net/~hseaver ======================================================================= All is impermanent, but this too shall pass away, and the way of the Samurai is death -- so speak your mind now, or forever hold your peace. ======================================================================= Copyright, Harmon F. Seaver, 1997. License to distribute this post is available to Microsoft for US$1,000 per instance, or local equivalent. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 21:31:03 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Alan Subject: Re: Dome Tents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harmon Seaver wrote: > > "Manufacturer > of quality Hemp homes..." > Anybody heard of this outfit and their product? Looks neat. I'll have > to call them on Monday. > A smokable dome? Now that IS innovation at work! Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:45:45 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kmetaverso Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Anyone ever combine Penrose and Fuller? Hi All, just wondering if anyone ever combined Penrose's tiles (Roger Penrose, famous nerd) and Bucky Fuller's geodesic/Synergetic stuff. Seems like they both used 5-fold symmetry in their patterns. Best regards, Kris (kmetaverso@aol.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 06:18:02 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Clifford J. Nelson" Organization: GTE Intelligent Network Services, GTE INS Subject: 4D field discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a discussion of a 4D field and Synergetics coordinates at: http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research Cliff Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:35:05 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: seryan Subject: Re: Un-Subscribe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please remove me from the list. The on-going discussion is fine, and I've learned a lot, but it is too time consuming. Best wishes to you all. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 14:41:29 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: Fw: Anyone ever combine Penrose and Fuller? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Kirby Urner > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Cc: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: Re: syn-l: Fw: Anyone ever combine Penrose and Fuller? > Date: Sunday, July 13, 1997 12:06 PM > > > Joe -- > > the answer is "been there done that" years ago > (e.g. Kajikawa, published in Japan's SciAm). > > Penrose is just one more oblivious numbskull > in my book -- all ego and no clue -- right up > there with Coxeter. > > Must be something I had for lunch. I've lost > my appetite for academics of any stripe. > Moving to Costa Rica within the year is the > current plan. I'll still be a webmaster > of course. > > Kirby > > > > >**************************************** > >* Joe S. Moore > >* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar > >* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > >* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute > >* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > >**************************************** > > > >---------- > >> From: Kmetaverso > >> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >> Subject: Anyone ever combine Penrose and Fuller? > >> Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 07:45 PM > >> > >> Hi All, > >> just wondering if anyone ever combined Penrose's tiles > >> (Roger Penrose, famous nerd) and Bucky Fuller's geodesic/Synergetic > >> stuff. Seems like they both used 5-fold symmetry in their patterns. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Kris > >> (kmetaverso@aol.com) > >> .- > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU > Email: pdx4d@teleport.com > Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:52:46 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dev T Britto wrote: > The need to do more with less impinges directly on our >relationship with the natural environment. I live in British Columbia, >Canada, where old growth forest is disappearing at an apalling rate. It >appears that the only way out of the socio-economic-political dilemma is >to add value to forest products. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This seems like twisted thinking to me. If we can solve the shelter problem on a large scale without using old growth, that'd be the ticket. I'd label my DDU's 'Old Growth Free' (special decal right next to the 'Intel Inside') and watch conscientious consumers flock to the dealer lots. Of course decorative and ornamental uses of wood, including veneers, still makes sense. But we've got so much already-mined metal sitting around on the surface that it'd make the most sense to do more with less with that, plus other materials, which don't involve felling trees, for whatever purpose. >make octet trusses from finely machined wood. Just be warned that I intend to compete with any wooden octet truss solutions. I consider the costs of using old growth exhorbitant and question the aesthetic sensibility of anyone using it as a primary construction material. How can they even sleep at night? > I feel a bit like Don Quixote here, sallying forth into unknown >lands (does the G.R.U.N.C.H. of Giants have anything to do with >windmills?). Yes, we make windmills in many varieties. You're welcome to attack them, but I'm not sure why you'd think it wise. >If anyone has any words of caution or advice I would appreciate hearing >from you. > > Dev Britto > cell smasher You've heard mine. I recommend you join efforts to supply attractive community and village designs, with special-purpose modules, including central facilities, which do not make any use of old growth. The villages might be located in or near old growth however, on the understanding that the people living in them love and respect the forest and realize our earthian ecosystem needs some time to recover from human rapacity, which is at this point noneconomic and an easy target for advertisers appealing to both self-interest and a sense of ethics (a lethal combination when it comes to wiping out the competition). Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 01:53:45 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kmetaverso Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Has anyone combined Fuller and Penrose? Dear All: just wondering if anyone took the principles of Penrose's five-fold quasi-periodic tiles and the five-fold symmetry of Fuller's Dymaxion Synergetics stuff and combined them in any way. Thanks in advance, Kris Metaverso ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:03:50 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: Fw: Anyone ever combine Penrose and Fuller? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Tony and Bonnie DeVarco > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: syn-l: Fw: Anyone ever combine Penrose and Fuller? > Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 05:55 AM > > Kirby wrote: > > >Joe -- > > > >the answer is "been there done that" years ago > >(e.g. Kajikawa, published in Japan's SciAm). > > Actually, it is not really "been there done that" because Yasushi > Kajikawa's 10-module system "hypermatrix" or "icomatrix" through which you > can build nested fivefold polyhedra containing the 2-dimensional penrose > tiling configurations on each face (and also the cube which does not > exhibit 5-fold symmetry), has only been published in Japanese, yet a small > circulation of an english translation of his paper has been attempted in > 1990 or so. The comparisons to Penrose were not fully examined and are rich > with parallels. Bill Becker's (from U. Illinois at Chicago) Rhombic > building system did attempt such comparisons with an equally intriguing > possibilities in his nested and space-filling Rhombic Triacontahedra and > diamond-face growing architecture module systems (he's been doing this for > about 30 years). Nobody has yet combined such excellent Fuller/Penrose > juxtapositions under the same "design science" umbrella though and it is > due time. The web offers a perfect ephemeral location for such exposition. > > > >Penrose is just one more oblivious numbskull > >in my book -- all ego and no clue -- right up > >there with Coxeter. > > I don't think many of us share this view. I certainly don't. Nobel > Laureate Roger Penrose and HSM Coxeter are unquestionably two of this > century's greatest minds in mathematics. Fuller himself recieved laudatory > letters from Coxeter after the debut of his first volume of Synergetics > which was dedicated to him. Fuller and Coxeter enjoyed a positively > reinforcing relationship for many years, Coxeter even benefitting from > Fuller's input on his paper on geodesic structuring of macromolecules and > dedicating it to Fuller. As for ego, according to Joseph Clinton, Coxeter > is quite a humble, approachable person who has contributed more than any > single figure this century to our better understanding of geometry (and as > most of you know, his works are classics in the field). > > Connections between Roger Penrose and Fuller are not as well documented but > certainly his work with Stuart Hameroff and the theory of quantum > consciousness and microtubules of the brain, along with his work with > quasicrystals and his contributions to quasi-equivalence theory are ripe > areas for comparison to synergetic modelling of the same phenomena. I am > presently researching this connection and hope to have some significant > parallels in a paper this year. I have a particularly strong respect for > the work of Penrose and one highlight of my personal intellectual pursuits > has been his presentation last November at Princeton University's > "Architectonics of Nature" conference. > > With all due respect, I just wanted to register a more positive response to > the query below as we all have completely different perspectives on > Fuller's work and the work of others. The questions below are excellent > and deserve much thoughtful consideration and input on this list. > > Bonnie DeVarco > > >>**************************************** > >>* Joe S. Moore > >>* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar > >>* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > >>* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute > >>* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > >>**************************************** > >> > >>---------- > >>> From: Kmetaverso > >>> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: Anyone ever combine Penrose and Fuller? > >>> Date: Saturday, July 12, 1997 07:45 PM > >>> > >>> Hi All, > >>> just wondering if anyone ever combined Penrose's tiles > >>> (Roger Penrose, famous nerd) and Bucky Fuller's geodesic/Synergetic > >>> stuff. Seems like they both used 5-fold symmetry in their patterns. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> Kris > >>> (kmetaverso@aol.com) > >>> .- > >> > >> > >---------------------------------------------------- > >Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU > >Email: pdx4d@teleport.com > >Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html > > > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:59:46 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: COXETER & PENROSE Comments: To: SYNERGETICS _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm afraid I have to agree with Kirby--Coxeter & Penrose have done nothing, that I am aware of, to promote Bucky's ideas--and I have been watching carefully for 27 years! **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:55:35 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Neil Katz Subject: Re: Has anyone combined Fuller and Penrose? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:53 AM 7/14/97 GMT, you wrote: >Dear All: >just wondering if anyone took the principles of Penrose's five-fold >quasi-periodic tiles and the five-fold symmetry of Fuller's Dymaxion >Synergetics stuff and combined them in any way. > >Thanks in advance, >Kris Metaverso > HARESH LALVANI has written several papers which extend the principles of Penrose's tiles in two-, three-, and higher-dimensional space. For example, a paper entitled "Non-periodic Space Structures", published in Space Strucures 2 (1986/87) [pages 93-108] contains the following abstract: An interesting class of two- and three-dimensional space structures can be derived from projections of higher-dimensional structures. Regular polygons and regular-faced polyhedra provide the geometry of families of n-stars from which two- and three-dimensional projectsion of n-dimensional grids can be derived. These projectsions are rhombic space grids composed of all-space filling rhombi and rhombohedra with edges parallel to n directions. An infinite class of single-, double- and multi-layered grids can be derived from n-sided polygons and prisms, and a finite class of multi-directional grids from the polyhedral symmetry groups. The grids can be periodic, centrally symmetric or non-periodic, and act as skeletons to generate corresponding classes of space- filling, packings and labyrinths. Haresh Lalvani is Professor of Architecture at Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, New York, and is Design Scientist-in-Residence at the Cathedral Church of St. John the Divine. In 1995 Haresh Lalvani curated the exhibition: "Contemporary Developments in Design Science", marking the birth centennial of Bucky Fuller, which opened at the cathedral in November 1995. As Design Scientist-in-Residence, Professor Lalvani has a studio within the cathedral where about six of us perform research in geometry and design science topics. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:00:09 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Subject: *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the semi-monthly "How To" file about the GEODESIC list. It has info on content and purpose of the list, as well as subscription info, posting instructions, etc. It should prove useful to new subscribers, as well as those who are unfamiliar with LISTSERV operations. This message is being posted on Tue Jul 15 00:00:05 PDT 1997. If you are tired of receiving this message twice per month, and are reading bit.listserv.geodesic through USENET news, then you can enter this subject into your KILL/SCORE file. If you're reading through email, you can set up a filter to delete the message. Both of these tricks are WELL worth learning how to do, if you don't know already. And isn't it about time to learn something new? Isn't it always? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEODESIC is a forum for the discussion of the ideas and creations relating to the work of R. Buckminster (Bucky) Fuller. Topics range from geodesic math to world hunger; floating cities to autonoumous housing, and little bit of everything in between. On topic discussion and questions are welcome. SPAM and unsolicited promotions are not. (Simple, eh?) ----------------------- To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and in the body of your letter put the line: SUB GEODESIC When you want to post, send mail to GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU ******NOT***** to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU! LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is for subscriptions, administrivia, archive requests, etc. GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is the actual discussion group. Anything sent to GEODESIC will go to all members. (And you don't want to look like a jerk having everyone see your "SUB GEODESIC John Q. Public" command! ;^) ) This list is also linked to USENET in the group bit.listserv.geodesic If you want to receive copies of everything you send to the list, use the command SET GEODESIC REPRO. 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(Can be in the same message.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe and unsubscribe.) Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:48:28 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rob Lusher Subject: Geodesic Sphere Display Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a potential client who wishes to make a 7 metre (23 feet) diameter 3v alternate complete sphere as a display model. The proposed structure would need to be made of 25mm (1 inch) or approximate diameter tubular aluminium with a simple and elegant connection system, (not squashed ends and bolts). I am aware of the "Envisioneering" type of space frame connectors and of various types of dome aviary connector systems. Those that I have seen do not seem to be suited to larger diameter struts however and involve precision engineered hub design. Does anyone know of a simple, elegant and not exorbitantly expensive system which might suit my purposes. Three types of connector would be needed for the sphere and I am thinking in terms of a lightweight node that the struts will slide into and be held by a cotter pin or snap-on arrangement. Does such a product already exist or are there specifications or ideas on such a system. Thanking you in anticipation, Rob Lusher The Dome Company http://www.wr.com.au/domeco 47 Edward St. Sylvania Heights Sydney, NSW 2224 Australia Phone/Fax: (02) 95226283 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:00:02 GMT+0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Venter, Dawie" Organization: Infoplan, Cape Regional Office Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss Kirby Urner wrote to Dev T Britto: -----------------------snipped-------------------------- > Just be warned that I intend to compete with any wooden octet > truss solutions. I consider the costs of using old growth exhorbitant > and question the aesthetic sensibility of anyone using it as a primary > construction material. How can they even sleep at night? Hi Dev, Kirby and All I've got a brochure from a South African Company who manufacture fiberglass octet trusses. Here is an extract from the brochure describing the manufacturing process: "Fibrestruc structures are manufactured by a unique process in which resin-saturated fibre rovings are progressively wound on a specially designed jig. They are then oven-cured to produce light-weight, high-strength and corrosion-reistant structures. Fittings are incorporated during manufacture to simplify assembly with other components. Various cross-sectional shapes, such as triangles, rectangles and polygons can be manufactured, in the case of lattice beams". The brochure goes on to say that for an equivalent weight, the Fiberstruc truss has 7 times the tensile strenght of mild steel, 4.5 times the tensile strength of aluminium and 2.8 to 4.5 times the tensile strenght of timber. Compressive strength 500MN/m^2 whilst steel is quoted at 450MN/m^2 and aluminium 84MN/m^2. "Cost. For an equivalent application in steel, Fiberstruc structures offer significant savings in weight (thus reducing transport and erection costs) and on a life-cycle basis offer significant savings in maintenance. Dependent on volume, Fiberstruc structures compare favourably to steel on initial outlay". Please advise if additional information (pictures etc.) is required. Warm regards Dawie Venter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:45:58 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: JustWINK Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Can geodesic structures be built piecemeal? Geodesics (in the RBF sense of the word) is, I believe, very unsuitable for the type of incremental construction that you refer to. It's adherence to sphericity at the expense of other factors makes it a difficult scheme to employ in that manner. A better approach, IMHO, is Baer's ZOME'S, which cluster nicely, use material economically and involve far less calculation. His sixties classic DOME COOKBOOK is back in print and available at my website. ZOME PRIMER, which is really about his 31-zone space truss (now ZOMETOOL) more than the zomes and zonohedra, will be out in the same format soon. Don't get me wrong! I have the greatest respect for Bucky's work, but I think that the current crop of 2x4 & plywood domes are a long way from his visions. He made reference to the economy of domes resulting from A) increased scale B) mass production and C) precision manufacturing. I believe we have yet to see any one of these elements come to geodesic domes in a real commercial sense, much less all 3. There is, in the works, a project to build a large span tensegrity dome that, if completed, will be the very first Bucky-style big dome. I'll keep you posted. Wink www.teachnet.com/winkworks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:32:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Can geodesic structures be built piecemeal? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: JustWINK > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Can geodesic structures be built piecemeal? > Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 09:45 PM > (snip) > but I think that the current crop of 2x4 & plywood domes > are a long way from his visions.........I believe we > have yet to see any one of these elements come to > geodesic domes in a real commercial sense, much less all > 3. > I agree. I still can't find a PORTABLE dome home that won't burn, rot, or serve as bug food! > > There is, in the works, a project to build a large span > tensegrity dome that, if completed, will be the very > first Bucky-style big dome. ^^^^^ ?? > See the "Star Tensegrity" [Octahedral Truss patent #3,354,591 granted 11-28-67] on pages 134-5 & 248-55 of _Inventions_. The Yomiuri Dome, built in 4-64 at a golf course in Tokyo, Japan, is a 36 frequency dome [diameter unknown]. See also _Geodesics_ figures 82-4 and _Artifacts of BF, Vol 4_, pages 3-28. > > Wink > > http://www.teachnet.com/winkworks > PS: Put "http://" in front of your web address to make it "hot". ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 15:51:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** > From: Venter, Dawie > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss > Date: Tuesday, July 15, 1997 02:00 AM > (snip) > > I've got a brochure from a South African > Company who manufacture fiberglass octet > trusses. > > Please advise if additional information (pictures etc.) is required. > Please post name, address, phone #, fax #, email, web URL, etc. Thanks. > > Warm regards > Dawie Venter > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:11:56 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Has anyone combined Fuller and Penrose? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Neil Katz > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Has anyone combined Fuller and Penrose? > Date: Monday, July 14, 1997 03:55 PM > (snip) > > HARESH LALVANI has written several papers which extend > the principles of Penrose's tiles in two-, three-, and > higher-dimensional space. > (snip) > > Haresh Lalvani is Professor of Architecture at Pratt > Institute in Brooklyn, New York, and is Design > Scientist-in-Residence at the Cathedral Church of St. > John the Divine. In 1995 Haresh Lalvani curated the > exhibition: "Contemporary Developments in Design > Science", marking the birth centennial of Bucky Fuller, > which opened at the cathedral in November 1995. As > Design Scientist-in-Residence, Professor Lalvani has a > studio within the cathedral where about six of us > perform research in geometry and design science topics. > Does the good professor have a web page we may see? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:29:08 -0700 Reply-To: Dev T Britto Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dev T Britto Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss In-Reply-To: <33c913a7.171345714@news.teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kirby, in response to my posting re: making octet trusses from wood here in Western Canada, you wrote: > This seems like twisted thinking to me. If we can solve the shelter > problem on a large scale without using old growth, that'd be the ticket. I didn't mean that the trusses would be made from old growth. Ideally they would come from trees that are thinned from second (or more) growth forests. Part of the idea is to take pressure off the remaining ancient stands by using sustainably harvested (and restocked) timber. > I'd label my DDU's 'Old Growth Free' (special decal right next to the > 'Intel Inside') and watch conscientious consumers flock to the dealer > lots. I agree. This is along the lines of what the Forest Stewardship Council promotes. I wonder about the affordability of your "smart homes" in the context of "solving the shelter problem," however. > Of course decorative and ornamental uses of wood, including > veneers, still makes sense. Yes. And musical instruments too. > But we've got so much already-mined metal > sitting around on the surface that it'd make the most sense to do > more with less with that, plus other materials, which don't involve > felling trees, for whatever purpose. I think this is a marvellous idea, in an ideal world, and very close to what RBF envisioned down the pipeline. Meanwhile, though, we have an enormous lumber industry here that is not likely to greatly slow down its wholesale culling of the forests unless the provincial economy diversifies and more value can be gained from sustainably harvested wood. > Just be warned that I intend to compete with any wooden octet > truss solutions. Because you disagree in principle with the use of wood for trusses, or because you feel that I might be threatening you economically? > I consider the costs of using old growth exhorbitant > and question the aesthetic sensibility of anyone using it as a primary > construction material. How can they even sleep at night? I wonder that too. Old growth is grossly undervalued in the world economy, but get this: nearly 100% of timber harvesting in this province occurs in old growth, and the vast majority of that is via clearcutting. What is wrong with optimizing materials use synergetically to take some pressure off of these great forests? > Yes, we make windmills in many varieties. You're welcome to attack > them, but I'm not sure why you'd think it wise. I'm not sure why I'd want to attack any of *your* windmills, Kirby; in fact, most of what I've seen on your websites is just fine. I suspect you have misunderstood where I am coming from. Yours, Dev Britto ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 04:51:55 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: gary099g@EROLS.COM Organization: fHdsoljj Ifnc. Subject: FREE 2000 $ex-WebSites FREE! @? 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========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:44:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: spat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Rick Bono > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: Re: syn-l: spat > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 11:07 AM > > Gerald & Kirby, > > As long as the subject came up... > I first read Critical Path back in the spring of 1984. My paperback copy is > well worn from a couple of poolside (I'd read by the pool between classes > and hacky sack) dunks. I was listening a great deal to Rush at the time. > Everytime I hear "New World Man" I wonder if Neil Peart might have read > Bucky somewhere along the way: > > He's a rebel and a runner > He's a signal turning green > He's a restless young romantic > Wants to run the big machine > > He's got a problem with his poisons > But you know he'll find a cure > He's cleaning up his systems > To keep his nature pure > > Learning to match the beat of the Old World man > Learning to catch the heat of the Third World man > > He's got to make his own mistakes > And learn to mend the mess he makes > He's old enough to know what's right > But young enough not to choose it > He's noble enough to win the world > But weak enough to lose it -- > He's a New World man... > > He's a radio receiver > Tuned to factories and farms > He's a writer and arranger > And a young boy bearing arms > > He's got a problem with his power > With weapons on patrol > He's got to walk a fine line > And keep his self-control > > Trying to save the day for the Old World man > Trying to pave the way for the Third World man > > He's not concerned with yesterday > He knows constant change is here today > He's noble enough to know what's right > But weak enough not to choose it > He's wise enough to win the world > But fool enough to lose it -- > He's a New World man... > > From "Signals" 1982 > > http://syrinx.umd.edu/rush/RUSH/11.signals.html#nwm > > These lyrics seem like a good job description for a design scientist. > > Rick "Just back from the Beach" Bono > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 03:16:30 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I meant to answer sooner, but limited time challenges all good things. It also challenges would be stewards of the forest. Who will go back and prune the young trees and saplings of the clear cuts? The home buyer?, (etc.). I've watched a local clear cut for 25 years. (Maine, USA). It was beautiful for 10 sapling years but now it is a scene of choking, moldy, diseased competition. If some good pruner would clean it up, there is some hope for some trees, but financial / academic society effectively disrespect such an occupation... I, myself experience this. The lawn mowing approach for pulp harvesting is recommended by institutions. Individual initiatives for wholistic efficiency are scoffed. Your idea sounds excellent, providing you can answer all concerns and still make progress. Computers make wonderful custom design work possible. One point in particular which i like is the use of short sections of wood. Since new growth is rarely clear of knots, short wood pieces make good sense. And the knotty chunks left over offer interesting stock for end grain tiles, as well. Do you have a clever joint plan yet? Bo @kinson http://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:13:10 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Herman Rubin Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET In article <33CE95D5.27DD@pacbell.net>, wrote: >How much money are you going to pour down the drain on throw a way kids? >When do the kids who are not causing trouble going to get their fair >share of the education money? >When are teachers going to stop trying to be social workers and spend >their time teaching? Is that so difficult concept to get? Teachers >teach! >Could we bring back Reform schools? It is not just students who are unwilling to learn who are the problem. There are vast differences of ability. It USED to be the case that there was a curriculum, with some provisions for a faster pace, and also failing those who could not maintain it. This was changed to insist on age grouping, which has been slightly relaxed, and to adjust the content to those in the classroom. But I am not at all convinced that we could get a full complement of teachers who could carry out a curriculum oriented program. We need to have more alternatives at each stage, and we cannot attain good results with the type of schools we have, based on the idea that 8 year olds should all be learning roughly the same material. -- This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399 hrubin@stat.purdue.edu Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:59:49 -0700 Reply-To: loushery@pacbell.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: loushery@PACBELL.NET Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4th graders second in world) Comments: To: SCIMATH@SUPERPRISM.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How much money are you going to pour down the drain on throw a way kids? When do the kids who are not causing trouble going to get their fair share of the education money? When are teachers going to stop trying to be social workers and spend their time teaching? Is that so difficult concept to get? Teachers teach! Could we bring back Reform schools? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:08:16 GMT+0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Venter, Dawie" Organization: Infoplan, Cape Regional Office Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss ----------snipped------------- > > I've got a brochure from a South African > > Company who manufacture fiberglass octet > > trusses. Joe Moore asked: > Please post name, address, phone #, fax #, email, web URL, etc. Thanks. Company name: IRENCO Address: PO Box 520, Irene, 0062, Republic of South Africa. Fax: +27 12 6711637 Phone: +27 12 67111275 (Apparently IRENCO has a URL, but the fiberstruc construction elements have not yet been included in their product line-up.) Regards Dawie Venter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:35:33 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: home page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Gerald A. de Jong > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: syn-l: home page > Date: Friday, July 18, 1997 02:11 AM > > it's pretty rare, but... > > >Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:25:30 -0700 > >From: Bryan Kubishta > >Organization: NRaD > >To: gdj@xs4all.nl > >Subject: home page > > > >I had to take the time and say that you have one of the best home pages > >ever. I enjoy geometry, but had never been exposed to Elastic Interval > >Geometry. > > Thank you! > > > > Bryan Kubishta > > Navy Research and Development(NRaD) San Diego > > > > > > --- > Gerald de Jong, Rotterdam NL, gdj@xs4all.nl > Elastic Interval Geometry: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gdj > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:41:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4thgraders second in world) Comments: To: loushery@pacbell.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Evolution wants to get rid of the current obsolete educational system and replace it with the Internet. See _Education Automation_ by R. Buckminster Fuller [1971]. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: loushery@PACBELL.NET > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: International mathematics and science scores (U.S. 4thgraders second in world) > Date: Thursday, July 17, 1997 02:59 PM > > How much money are you going to pour down the drain on throw a way kids? > When do the kids who are not causing trouble going to get their fair > share of the education money? > When are teachers going to stop trying to be social workers and spend > their time teaching? Is that so difficult concept to get? Teachers > teach! > Could we bring back Reform schools? > .- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 09:26:13 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: TREES Comments: cc: SYNERGETICS _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In light of the fact that at the same time that humans are putting more and more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, they are cutting down more and more trees that remove carbon dioxide, I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that it is becoming almost immoral if not downright suicidal to cut down any more trees for ANY purpose [including homes]! **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:09:28 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Geodesic Sphere Display MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob, Check out: Aluminum Geodesic Spheres (AGS)[Florida, USA] 305-625-9436 Conservatek, Inc [Texas, USA] http://www.conservatek.com Structural Visions [Oregon, USA] http://www2.geodesicdomestructures.com/GDS/ Temcor [California, USA] http://www.temcor.com **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Rob Lusher > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Geodesic Sphere Display > Date: Wednesday, July 16, 1997 12:48 AM > > I have a potential client who wishes to make a 7 metre (23 feet) diameter > 3v alternate complete sphere as a display model. The proposed structure > would need to be made of 25mm (1 inch) or approximate diameter tubular > aluminium with a simple and elegant connection system, (not squashed ends > and bolts). > > I am aware of the "Envisioneering" type > of space frame connectors and of various types of dome aviary connector > systems. Those that I have seen do not seem to be suited to larger > diameter struts however and involve precision engineered hub design. > > Does anyone know of a simple, elegant and not exorbitantly expensive system > which might suit my purposes. Three types of connector would be needed for > the sphere and I am thinking in terms of a lightweight node that the struts > will slide into and be held by a cotter pin or snap-on arrangement. Does > such a product already exist or are there specifications or ideas on such a > system. > > Thanking you in anticipation, > > Rob Lusher > The Dome Company http://www.wr.com.au/domeco > 47 Edward St. > Sylvania Heights > Sydney, NSW 2224 > Australia Phone/Fax: (02) 95226283 > .- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:58:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Skip Kindler Subject: Re: Dome under construction MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just ran across this and dont rember if i replyed Take a look at http://www.cnw.com/~skips am working on an apartment in the hanger now so have been over in idaho out of touch.. Skip skips@cnw.com Venter, Dawie wrote: > Skip Kindler wrote > > > I am currently building a 36' dome that is on top of an aircraft > hanger. > > This is interesting, if I may ask, why on top of an aircraft hanger > and are you planning to eventually live there? > > > I could post some pictures to the list but am not sure of the > etiquette > > of this list. > > I'd be very interested to see what the structure looks like, please > attach to > a direct e-mail to me. > > Regards > Dawie Venter > Cape Town - South Africa ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:11:30 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DoctorData@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Int'l mathematics On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 3:20 PM EDT, loushery@pacbell.net wrote, >How much money are you going to pour down the drain on throw a way kids? >When do the kids who are not causing trouble going to get their fair share of the >education money? >When are teachers going to stop trying to be social workers and spend >their time teaching? Is that so difficult concept to get? Teachers teach! What an outrageous statement! Who died and made you the arbiter of the value of a human being?!! "Throw away kids", indeed! None of the children in our schools are getting their "fair share" of education money. Why? IMHO, Because we have chosen to put their education money into building prisons just so that we can throw people away. Who gets thrown away next? Your child? Your spouse? Your parent? The child who cannot get an education and becomes your burglar, your murderer? I cannot imagine a life so valueless that one could even get one's mind around the idea of a throw away person. Try to get your mind around the idea of a world that works for everyone. Then perhaps the twisted concept of a throw away life will leave your mind. Perhaps then you might be able to get your mind around the idea of a Bucky Fuller. -Steve Burgess "He who dies with the most toys...still dies" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:04:11 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Jonathan Pynchon Subject: Re: Int'l mathematics Comments: To: "DoctorData@AOL.COM" -- [ From: Jonathan Pynchon * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hi, Not to fan the flames, but isn't this the 'list for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller...'? It would be easier on the eyes and karma if these posts all related thematically to Bucky's ideas and goals; making life better for everyone on the planet. Educational funding in the USA has been subordinated to 'defense spending'. One response to this: Handwrite letters to your Representative and Senator and request that they approve budgets that have a greater ratio of education to weaponry spending. Bear in mind that any changes that can be implemented today will not be pronounced in success until this current group of students has procreated; it is the efforts of educated parents that help the student succeed, and we appear to have a great number of un-educated parents at this point in time. I haven't read anything directly written by Fuller, but a number of derivative works that talk about his engineering and goals to protect people from inclement living conditions. What else did he promote? Jonathan Pynchon What if cancer was only a state of mind? You could only develop it if you stopped being a good neighbor... -------- REPLY, Original message follows -------- Date: Friday, 18-Jul-97 07:11 PM From: DoctorData@AOL.COM \ America On-Line: (DoctorData) To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works \ Internet: (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu) Subject: Re: Int'l mathematics On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 3:20 PM EDT, loushery@pacbell.net wrote, >How much money are you going to pour down the drain on throw a way kids? >When do the kids who are not causing trouble going to get their fair share of the >education money? >When are teachers going to stop trying to be social workers and spend >their time teaching? Is that so difficult concept to get? Teachers teach! What an outrageous statement! Who died and made you the arbiter of the value of a human being?!! "Throw away kids", indeed! None of the children in our schools are getting their "fair share" of education money. Why? IMHO, Because we have chosen to put their education money into building prisons just so that we can throw people away. Who gets thrown away next? Your child? Your spouse? Your parent? The child who cannot get an education and becomes your burglar, your murderer? I cannot imagine a life so valueless that one could even get one's mind around the idea of a throw away person. Try to get your mind around the idea of a world that works for everyone. Then perhaps the twisted concept of a throw away life will leave your mind. Perhaps then you might be able to get your mind around the idea of a Bucky Fuller. -Steve Burgess "He who dies with the most toys...still dies" -------- REPLY, End of original message -------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:33:10 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harmon Seaver Organization: Maddog Press Subject: Math? Science? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geez, here we are --stuck in old Mobile with the Memphis blues again: > oushery@pacbell.ne wrote: >"Love your logic. Y>ou should make teacher of the lear. -- Harmon Seaver hseaver@dibbs.net http://www.dibbs.net/~hseaver ======================================================================= All is impermanent, but this too shall pass away, and the way of the Samurai is death -- so speak your mind now, or forever hold your peace. ======================================================================= Copyright, Harmon F. Seaver, 1997. License to distribute this post is available to Microsoft for US$1,000 per instance, or local equivalent. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 08:02:13 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Re: syn-l: TREES Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:26 AM 7/18/97 -0700, Joe wrote: > >In light of the fact that at the same time that humans are putting more >and more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, they are cutting down more >and more trees that remove carbon dioxide, I am rapidly coming to the >conclusion that it is becoming almost immoral if not downright suicidal to >cut down any more trees for ANY purpose [including homes]! > >**************************************** >* Joe S. Moore Partly true.... Where few trees grow especially. Why create corporate welfare and corporate hobbies by the plunder of remote, dwindling forests? My heart crys. Here in Maine, the trees and seedlings are plenty... The big problems are the method of harvest and lack of forest care. If you don't thin quick after nature plants thick, then you get the that deceased stage of choking, moldy competition. Some careful, low impact culling becomes very important between 10 - 20 years of growth. But appropriate institutions generally overlook the ideal machinery and practices to do this good work. I get into trouble with statements like your's, Joe. And i sort of sealed a fate of poverty for myself by refusing to buy plywood and 2X4s, (as a carpenter). Instead i try to promote sculptural ferro concrete, poly carbonate sheathing and silica gel insulation..... ('Haven't sold a house in years). It's not easy to introduce good ideas to a locality steeped in colonial traditions. Organic agriculture would fix much carbon in the soil where it can do marvelous, under- documented wonders. And low meat consumption would reduce agri business depletion of carbon in top soil. (Agri business thinks it's too expensive to return carbon to the soil, but they might be very wrong about this). Are you aware of the moral similarity here Joe? Bo @kinson http://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 18:44:21 -0700 Reply-To: Dev T Britto Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dev T Britto Subject: Re: syn-l: TREES In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970719080206.006c9204@agate.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree with you, Bo. Joe's eschewal of all timber harvesting is undoubtedly well-meant, but ecologically speaking not fully realistic. In many cases where the land has already been devastated by modern mechanized forestry, and starts to recover as pioneer species accrue biomass, a certain degree of human intervention, in the form of selective harvesting, may not only NOT DECREASE the total amount of impounded carbon dioxide, but in fact STIMULATE primary productivity. (Sorry about the long sentence.) This situation is very similar to the effect of intermediate grazing intensities on some grassland ecosystems, in which again productivity is actually increased, this time by herbivore activity. What? Decrease greenhouse grasses by cutting more trees? Globally, of course not! Far too many trees are cut (and not enough is done with them - in a Fulleristic sense) from the wrong types of forests. But to oppose the felling of ANY trees for ANY purpose paints the canvas rather too starkly, don't you think? Dev Britto ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:33:50 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HCyta@AOL.COM Subject: geodesic dome Comments: To: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu I am looking for basic construction detail how to bulid smaller structures what are the equations that are needed where can I find the info I would need thank you hcytac@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:35:37 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ken G. Brown" Subject: Integrated Building Design System (IBDS). Comments: To: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" URL of interest: COMBINE 2 is a major research project within the JOULE programme of the European Commission's Directorate General XII for Science, Research and Development. It seeks to develop an operational computer-based Integrated Building Design System (IBDS). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 07:04:39 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: geodesics.nz Subject: Re: TREES Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe S. Moore wrote: > > In light of the fact that at the same time that humans are putting more > and more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, they are cutting down more > and more trees that remove carbon dioxide, I am rapidly coming to the > conclusion that it is becoming almost immoral if not downright suicidal to > cut down any more trees for ANY purpose [including homes]! The main source of photosynthesis on the planet is in the ocean - take care of the water first - then think about the overall energy/pollution/resource equation. Using alternatives to timber often means that that there is resource depletion and pollution as the result when you consider the whole process of raw material to end use. The immorality is in the cutting down of a tree without planting a replacement. You can't replace any other resource - the immorality of using a non-renewable resource for anything other than a permanent use is greater than the immorality of felling a tree - and when you look at programmed obsolesence as a marketing philosophy - well, the weight of the sin gets even greater. Regards John Rich Auckland New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 23:27:25 -0700 Reply-To: salsbury@bootstrap.sculptors.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: The Butterfly Subject: New Design Science-related mailing lists Comments: To: domesteading@bootstrap.sculptors.com Comments: cc: technomads@ucsd.edu There are a couple of new discussion groups for focused aspects of the overall Reality Sculptors Project. The new lists are for the discussion of clean water systems, autopilots for vehicles, and fuel cell power systems for homes and autos. Details can be found at http://www.sculptors.com/lists.html Pat ___________________Think For Yourself____________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- "Giving money and power to the government is liking giving whisky and car keys to teenage boys." -- P.J. O'Rourke ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:41:41 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: TREES In-Reply-To: (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu) It is my understanding that trees also produce CO2, but only at night, whereas by day, trees produce oxygen; the net result is the rainforests produce about the same amount of O2 as they consume and supply us with only negligible amounts. Our "rebreather" always was and will always be the oceanic algae who brought us the breathable atmosphere in the first place. Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN ------------------------------------------------- Test the impossible ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:49:07 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: TREES Comments: cc: SYNERGETICS _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, I think you are probably right. I hadn't thought of "oceanic algae". What is the status of oceanic algae--increasing, decreasing, stable? Joe **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Gary Lawrence Murphy > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: TREES > Date: Monday, July 21, 1997 06:41 AM > > It is my understanding that trees also produce CO2, but only at night, > whereas by day, trees produce oxygen; the net result is the rainforests > produce about the same amount of O2 as they consume and supply us with > only negligible amounts. > > Our "rebreather" always was and will always be the oceanic algae who > brought us the breathable atmosphere in the first place. > > Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 > mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 > http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN > ------------------------------------------------- Test the impossible > .- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:39:42 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tekno-Rave Area Subject: Re: New Design Science-related mailing lists Comments: To: The Butterfly Comments: cc: domesteading@bootstrap.sculptors.com, technomads@UCSD.EDU In-Reply-To: <199707210627.XAA26846@bootstrap.sculptors.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tell me how you got my email address.. thank you KAos The Poet The Artist, the Slueth- Whoever sharpens our perceptions tend to be antisocial. Rarely "Well Adjusted," he cannot go along with currents and trends. -Marshall McLuhan (: (: (::::::: (:: (::: (::::::: ThisIsSuchAFukkinCoolPlace!!! :) *PLUR* oO(TEKNO_RAAVE_SiG)Oo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 15:23:25 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: - Robert Dyksterhouse Subject: Re: syn-l: TREES I agree that there is an ingnorance in this world when it comes to cutting trees down without considering the long term consequences. However, what has not been addressed here is the fact that in some cases boycotts against tropical hardwoods in order to stop cutting of precious rainforests have had an opposite effect. Landowners now struggling to make a living because of boycotts are deciding to just cut down all of their trees and convert it to agriculture so that they can put food on the table. And we all know that is worse than the worse case of clearcutting. The issue of preserving our forests for carbon sequestration, wildlife habitat, wood supply, etc. must be dealt with ecology, economics and global environmental health in mind. Forests must be managed as with any resource, with sustainability in mind. I once believed that alternative building materials were the key to saving our forests and improving our air quality but the truth is that a wholistic approach that encompasses several different alternative energy, building products, and doing more with less concepts must be looked at - there is never just one clear answer - the world is an incredibly complex system that we must "handle with care". Bob Dyksterhouse Rdykster@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:13:33 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: prkosuth Subject: trees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary wrote: >It is my understanding that trees also produce CO2, but only at night, >whereas by day, trees produce oxygen; the net result is the rainforests >produce about the same amount of O2 as they consume and supply us with >only negligible amounts. The "light" and "dark" reactions in the photosynthesis process only refer to the need for the light energy. The light reaction requires larger amounts of carbon dioxide, water and light energy in the form of photons to create energy and release oxygen. The dark reaction is where large amounts of energy are stored up . The dark and light reactions occur at the same time --- one needs light, the other doesn't. prkosuth@mychoice.net OPINIONS ARE MY OWN Brehm Preparatory School Carbondale IL ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 14:02:27 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: geodesics.nz Subject: Re: TREES Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe S. Moore wrote: > > Gary, > > I think you are probably right. I hadn't thought of "oceanic algae". > What is the status of oceanic algae--increasing, decreasing, stable? > > Joe Hi Joe, The oceanic algae is potentially in trouble from many factors, though it would require a marine specialist to be authoritative about this. Consider the sources of damage to the ocean, amongst which are the following: Oil spills, lignin fibre from sewage treatment outflow (it used to be toilet paper - which trees were cut down to make), acid rain ( if it can screw up the maples it can screw up the oceans), fertiliser run off causing the ecosystem to go haywire, risk from plutonium shipments ( they have the nerve to sail right past nuclear free New Zealand), reclamation of estuaries and rivers, etc. Water is the first law of life. Oren Lyons of the Haudenosaunee said, " One of the Natural Laws is that you've got to keep things pure. Especially the water. Keeping the water pure is one of the first laws of life. If you destroy water you destroy life." Regards John Rich Auckland New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 20:08:44 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DeVarco Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Porcelainia - Patterned Jewels of Ordered Chaos Porcelainia - Patterned Jewels of Ordered Chaos You are invited to visit a brand new web site celebrating the scientific artistry of porcelain artist, Bobby Jaber. Jaber, a fine artist, has taught high school chemistry and physics for more than 25 years and has been greatly influenced by Buckminster Fuller's synergetic geometry. His "Octahedral Porcelain Process" blends elements of both the sciences and the arts in a unique approach to sculpting spherical porcelain vessels. This process combines the exactitude of measurement, the mathematics of the sphere and exercises in geometry with the aesthetics of embedded design. In Bobby's unique "artist's laboratory" the final work in each of its transitional stages is carefully logged and measured. New tools which conform to the needs of spherical vessels are continually being designed and constructed as the artist/craftsman explores this new realm of artistic alchemy. Jaber's art draws its inspiration from his Arabic heritage. His artworks bring together in three dimensions the same symmetrical elements that define the beautiful works of Islamic sacred art. These interlaced designs embody an unbroken rhythm, regularity and interwovenness that only such abstract forms can bring to the viewer. Jaber's finished vessels introduce curvature to the embedded designs, at once both natural and abstract, bringing a new dimension to the geometric art experience. Jaber's designs, however, unlike traditional Islamic design, also combine both chaos and order in a symmetrically unified "whole." Jaber's approach to design in porcelain also draws from the works of other artist/scientists in history, most notably Buckminster Fuller, who explored the geometry of energy systems in his "synergetic geometry" and was best known as the inventor of the geodesic dome. As he began to bring Bucky's approach from synergetics into his efforts to divide the sphere, define the planes of truncation of polyhedra to form modules and to recombine the modules into new forms, the more beautiful and harmonious the resulting designs have become. Jaber's Octahedral Porcelain Process has evolved to include forms that incorporate basic design elements Fuller championed, elements such as such as symmetry, frequency growth, sphere packing, and beautiful combinations of the tetrahedron, octahedron, icosahedron and cuboctahedron (vector equilibrium). The embedded geometric design patterns of these unique porcelain vessels embody many of Fuller's elaborations of synergetics, a geometric system based on his attempts to understand "Nature's Design." Home Page: http://www.west.net/~bjaber Three special highlights of Bobby Jaber's Digital Porfolio are: The Buckminster Fuller Presentation Series This series is a limited edition of six porcelain versions of the carbon 60 molecule. Four of the pieces were presented to each of the discoverers of buckminsterfullerene (Nobel Laureates, Kroto, Smalley and Curl) and Ed Applewhite, Fuller's colleague and collaborator on the two volumes of Synergetics. Each piece is featured on its own page with background information on its recipient. http://www.west.net/~bjaber/Presenser.html Symmetric Work - Geometrica Geometrica is an extended series of open latticework pieces drawing from the geometries of Buckminster Fuller. http://www.west.net/~bjaber/SymmWk.html New Work - The "Hellas Series" and "Alexandria Series" These two brand new series are in process. Each piece honors and bears the name of a mathematician, philosopher or astronomer of the ancient world. http://www.west.net/~bjaber/Hellas.html http://www.west.net/~bjaber/Alex.html Enjoy!! Bonnie Goldstein DeVarco devarco@pptnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:17:16 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: geodesics.nz Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What's the problem with using timber? It is a renewable resource. Each timber house uses between 10 and 20 cubic metres of timber. Properly built houses last for more than 100 years. Plant five trees as a matter of respect for the timber used in your house. The energy/pollution/resource equation is more than balanced - in fact it is in credit on the side of the environment. Regards John Rich ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 08:55:24 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: danu@MONITOR.NET Subject: Re: Porcelainia - Patterned Jewels of Ordered Chaos In-Reply-To: <19970722200801.QAA09495@ladder02.news.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 12:08 PM -0800 7/22/97, DeVarco wrote: >Porcelainia - Patterned Jewels of Ordered Chaos Bonnie- this is a beautiful Web site; thanks for the notice. (i wish i could see and feel a different one of his pieces every few days..maybe we will soon in virtual reality anyway?!). I assume you wrote the text (quoted in your notice) for his site? Its a very nice description. (There is a typo you may want to correct if this is the same as the text on his site), ie, the repitition of "such as" in the following: >Jaber's Octahedral Porcelain Process has evolved to >>include forms that incorporate basic design elements Fuller championed, >>elements such as such as symmetry, btw: who's the site manager? the home page looks like it may be the same person as does your Design Science Consortium? > >Home Page: http://www.west.net/~bjaber --danu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:29:34 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: TREES Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Joe S. Moore" wrote: >Gary, > >I think you are probably right. I hadn't thought of "oceanic algae". >What is the status of oceanic algae--increasing, decreasing, stable? > >Joe > This is all very complicated stuff that needs modeling. Trees fix atmospheric carbon simply by growing big and strong -- i.e. by being carboniferous, a source of future fossil fuel (coal). To burn a forest is to release a lot of carbon into the atmosphere -- kinda like those oil burns in Kuwait. Then there's the whole question of cloud cover and how forests relate to moisture in the atmosphere. Trees tend to collect moisture and channel it, which leads to more localized evaporation as well. Cloud cover has to do with reflectivity, how much sunlight reaches the earth's surface. An overly dry forest becomes a tinder box and tends to ignite (in a storm for example), which releases a lot of carbon. The oceanic ecosystem has a protazoan basis, as do soils, and is impacted by the amount and frequency of sunlight. The ozone shield, variable over time, correlates with lots of microbial count variables, which in turn affects the mix of oceanic life, including of algae, and therefore affects the ocean's dynamic equilibrium vis-a-vis atmospheric gases. Pollutants, fisheries, weather patterns, all feature in to these equations as well. I think the intuition that further rapacious destruction of old growth is dangerously threatening to our continued survival should be taken seriously. For one thing, I regard it is a measure of the human collective IQ, how much destruction of habitats and ecosystems humans think they must propagate in order to solve their economic puzzles. Part of why I'm polemical against the discipline of Economics, have positioned my brand of General Systems Theory in direct competition as a counter-recruiting discipline, is because I share Fuller's sense that a lot of viable solutions to our economic woes are staring us in the face, and have been for some time, but the curriculum people are too straitjacketed by obsolete conditioned reflexes to break out of their presently institutionalized context. Kirby 4D Solutions ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:51:09 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: METALS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Simon, Julian (editor). THE STATE OF HUMANITY (Blackwell, Cambridge, MA and Oxford, UK) 1995. The 58 chapters by many authors are divided into parts entitled "Life, Death and Health", "Standard of Living, Productivity, and Poverty", "Natural Resources", "Agriculture, Food, Land and Water", "Pollution and the Environment", "Thinking about the Issues", and "Conclusion: From the Past to the Future". "Julian Simon leads the charge against the doomsayers. His arguments against them are based mainly on history and economics and current statistics. He goes much less into science and technology than we do. Here is Simon's home page, and here is a direct reference to his on-line works including a version of the above-mentioned book." "The 1980-1990 Ehrlich-Simon Bet: Simon won a famous bet with the Paul Ehrlich about how the price of metals would move in the 1980s. The Stanford University population biologist Paul Ehrlich who tends to believe that the world is facing increasing scarcity believed that the price of metals would go up because of this. Simon, paying attention to costs of production and the magnitude of reserves believed the prices would go down. The bet concerned the price of 5 minerals. (Ehrlich got to choose which 5 minerals). Simon sold Ehrlich an option to buy an amount of each mineral worth $200 in 1980. Inflation was taken into account, so that the payoff would be an amount in 1990 dollars corresponding to whoever's predictions were more accurate. If the price went up, Simon would pay Ehrlich, and they went down, Ehrlich would pay Simon. Here's what happened to the minerals, which had been selected by Ehrlich." Mineral quantity 1980 price 1990 price copper 196.56 lbs $200 $163 chrome 51.28 lbs $200 $120 nickel 65.32 lbs $200 $193 tin 229.1 lbs $200 $56 tungsten 13.64 lbs $200 $86 "All 5 minerals went down in price, taking inflation into account, so Ehrlich sent Simon a check for $576.07. Just a check, no letter. Simon offered another bet on a proposition of Ehrlich's choice, but Ehrlich declined. (Five years later Ehrlich and Stephen Schneider proposed a different bet on a take-it-or-leave it basis, but it was formulated in such a way that Simon was right to decline)." "The source for the Ehrlich-Simon bet and its outcome is an article by John Tierney entitled "Betting the Planet" in the New York Times Magazine, December 2, 1990, starting on page 52. There's a lot more in it about the issues than just an account of the bet." http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/references.html#bet **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:24:51 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Geoff Armstrong Subject: Re: METALS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An article also appeared in WIRED recently on Julian Simon, titled "The Doomslayer". I don't have the issue to hand; but a copy could probably be found in WIRED's archive. It also covers the famous bet with Paul Ehrlich. The article gave the impression that Simon painted everything as hunky dory. It was refreshing to hear the oposite point of view to that of the very vocal Doomsayers; but many Wired readers felt Simon was irresponsible in painting such a rosy picture of the world. Having since read Critical Path I believe Bucky got it right. There are enough resources to go around; but only if we use them responsibly. Can this really be the case when all the countries at the recent New York summit had failed to meet the previously agreed, very conservative levels, for limiting environmental abuse? I believe there's a danger of becoming so intoxicated with Simon's ultra positive views that we forget we're stilll on a 'Critical Path'. Geoff Armstrong (slowly coming out of the lurker closet) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 08:43:27 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: DIGITIZATION OF SYNERGETICS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quote: "Epsilon" with its undulating symmetry is the fifth porcelain buckyball of the Presentation Series. It was presented to E.J. Applewhite on June 20, 1997. Applewhite, known best for his longtime collaboration with Buckminster Fuller on his magnum opus, Synergetics and Synergetics 2, is an author and "professional layman" living in Washington D.C. Applewhite retired in 1970 from 25 years as Deputy Inspector General for the C.I.A. His last 27 years have been devoted to writing, scientific inquiry and exploration. His collaboration with Fuller on the two main volumes of his synergetic geometry was documented in his engaging book, Cosmic Fishing, followed by four massive volumes of the Synergetics Dictionary. Other books and articles by Applewhite include a delightful insider's tour of America's Capital City in Washington Itself and a thought-provoking journey into the scientific definition of life and death in Paradise Mislaid - Birth, Death, and the Human Predicament of Being Biological. >>>He is now spearheading a project to produce the first >>>hyperlinked digital version of Synergetics and Synergetics 2. Unquote. http://www.west.net/~bjaber/epsilon.html **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 09:15:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: geodesic dome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Look in the links section of my web pages under shelter/domes/... There should be some refs to sites that have the info you're looking for. If you have any trouble let me know. [The bibliography section also has a lot of refs to books that have what you're looking for. See the "books about" section.] **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: HCyta@AOL.COM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: geodesic dome > Date: Sunday, July 20, 1997 05:33 AM > > I am looking for basic construction detail > how to bulid smaller structures > what are the equations that are needed > where can I find the info I would need > thank you > > hcytac@aol.com > .- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:19:52 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: broken link Comments: To: Jonathan Pynchon MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan, Thanks for the tip. I'm in the process of updating/revising all my web pages (250+). I'm trying to come up with a logical system for naming all the pics so that they will show up when using the pic search engines. I'm also converting most of the pics to the GIF format since it usually is a smaller file that will load faster. I'm changing the background/foreground colors so that they look reasonably good both on a monitor AND on paper. (Yellow text on a black background does not print out well--text is almost invisible!) And, of course, I've collected a lot of links to add. I want to improve on the formatting of the Master Index so that it is more readable. And I want to add thumbnail pics everywhere. I hope to be done by Christmas. It's a long, tedious job. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Jonathan Pynchon > To: Joe S. Moore > Subject: Re: broken link > Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 05:18 AM > > -- [ From: Jonathan Pynchon * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > > Hi, > > Your page http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/LINKS/LinkShelter4dHouse.htm has > the link, "The Dymaxion House (ORBIT article)" which is no longer valid... > the author has further info at http://www.tcp.com/~prime8/Orbit/ > > Just thought you should know... > > Jonathan > .- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:08:07 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: (fwd) Serious-minded philosophy? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- From: Kirby Urner To: synergetics-l@teleport.com Subject: syn-l: (fwd) Serious-minded philosophy? Date: Wednesday, July 23, 1997 01:27 PM In sci.philosophy.meta, pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote: Here's what serious-minded philosophy looks like in my book. I wasn't just kidding then, and I'm still not kidding today. I'll be adding this to my website of course, providing more ammo for my beloved service. Kirby PS: Syn-Lers, I fixed a typo vs the newsgroup version to sci.philosophy.meta. The original was laser printed and sent as written cc as indicated. ============================================================= URNER ARCHIVE COPY MEMORANDUM June 21, 1988 TO: John S. Burr, '53, Chairman, Annual Giving FR: Kirby T. Urner '80, PDX CUE RE: Annual Giving I believe it is imperative that Princeton faculty should take serious measures to phase the Fuller Syllabus into the core curriculum. Until this happens, I discredit the worth of the Princeton experience and actively discourage alumni from giving financial support pending these changes in the curriculum. I tell prospective and current students that they are not getting their money's worth. They deserve a refund of their tuition. I believe I am acting in accordance with what I learned at Princeton, from Dr. Walter Kaufmann in the Philosophy Department especially. Dr. Kaufmann had serious doubts about the ability of academia to come to grips with the reality of life at the limits, the conditions experienced by millions on this planet. I have come to see that these doubts were in every way justified. Dr. Kaufmann served Army Intelligence as an interrogator of German prisoners of war in the aftermath of World War II. He used his later appointment at Princeton University to do post mortem analysis on conditions obtaining within German academia when the insidious and creeping ideology of Nazism was working to turn scholars into mindless supporters of the new regime, willing to trade their academic integrity for the comforts and conveniences of the ivory tower lifestyle. he singled out Heidegger for special treatment, condemning this man's life work as totally irrelevant because completely unable to identify and counter the enemy. Today, Ethiopian 11-year-olds are driven insane with hunger and then die prolonged and agonizing death by starvation, whether or not they make it to a "feeding center." These "feeding centers" are coordinating the mass burials of thousands and potentially millions of victims of senseless violence. The Fuller Syllabus makes it absolutely clear that ideology, political "common sense" and pseudo-science are behind this killing. This is the willful negligence of human beings, not the inexorable, cruel action of "nature." Nor may we pin the blame on a few beleaguered officials who pretend to be in political control of the situation. I don't buy the "civil war" explanation, an overused excuse for committing atrocities. There is enough food production globally to feed everyone. The technology to prevent horrible death by starvation has been in our possession since the 1970s. The parallels with Nazism and the holocaust are not overdrawn. Millions more stand to lose their lives in the present crisis than suffered and died in the death camps during World War II. The Fuller Syllabus contains advances in geometry over the current syllabus that even ten-year-olds have no trouble understanding. The unit-volume tetrahedron is a real breakthrough. From this new geometry, we get the most accurate map in human history, and designs for the geodesic domes and spheres, futuristic symbols in World's Fairs since the late 1960s. The sphere is now permanently on display at the heart of Disney World in the form of AT&T's Spaceship Earth at EPCOT. The Fuller Syllabus makes it abundantly clear that humanity has the option to succeed like never before *if* it behaves intelligently. Academia is *supposed* to be a primary source of intelligence. It is true that we may fail. But academia will *not* survive with its reputation intact if we do fail. There is no way I or anyone else can admire Princeton's leadership and mission if it doesn't at least make a bold attempt at success when success is in fact possible. Why, after all these years, do schools of cartography avoid serious study of the Fuller Projection? Why did I go through 4 years as an undergraduate at Princeton and find Fuller mentioned on only one syllabus, in the "Optional Reading" section? The philosophy contained in _Synergetics_ is far superior to anything I encountered in Kant or Hegel. Fuller's approach to Problems of World Hunger (the title of a Woodrow Wilson School course I took at Princeton, #454) is relevant, practical, and action-oriented. Why was this approach not studied? Until I see some major changes at Princeton, I feel it is my job, as a proud Princetonian, to raise some hell. I've been raising hell for several years now, in various ways, shapes and forms. Raising hell is very hard work. You don't do it by looking angry and shouting in people's faces, unless you're in the Marines. My Marines enroll in my Training because they're willing to take the abuse, they love it in fact. They eat shit and ask for more, Please Sir! But civilians have their rights as Americans. USA people expect the red carpet treatment wherever they go. So I save the Full Metal Jacket stuff for my Marines. I'm training my United States Military to stand between Death and the victims of LAWCAP aggression and negligence around the world. If LAWCAP wants to legally perpetrate mass death aboard Spaceship Earth, it's going to have to fight my Marines first, right here and now. Maybe we'll just roll our tanks into Princeton and shut the whole place down. That would probably be an improvement over the present state of affairs. Thanks for listening. Copies to: Senator Bill Bradley US Marine Corps Admiral Crowe, Chairman, JCS National Security Archives ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ .- ---------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:40:05 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: DYMAXION BATHROOM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Museums of Long Island: "THE KNOTHOLE, Christopher Morley Park, Searingtown Rd., Roslyn-North Hills, [Nassau County, Long Island, NY] 571-8113. Hours: 1-4:35 p.m. Sun., July-Oct [1997]. Fee: None. Restored writer's studio of Christopher Morley, author of "Kitty Foyle'' and other novels; bathroom designed by Buckminster Fuller." **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 15:05:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: LINKS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just found out that if the word "link:" is put in front of a URL, many search engines will tell you what pages are linked to that URL. For example: link:http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 19:18:28 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DeVarco Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Special Ecological Design Event!!! "THE LIVING SCHUYLKILL" The solar operated Living Schuylkill is part of the larger vision of reintegrating nature with community. The project will enable our the community around the Schuylkill River to see first hand the powerful healing forec of bio-remediation and can become a successful model for similar projects around the globe. TIME: 3 pm EST Wednesday, July 30, 1997 COST: Free LOCATION: World Game Institute 3215 Race Street Philadelphia,PA 19104 USA 1-800-220-GAME 215-387-0220 fax 215-387-3009 web address: www.worldgame.org/ PARKING: free parking in WGI's lot on Race St. The World Game Institute, located on the Drexel University campus in Philadelphia will feature this FREE special event with guest speaker, Chris Zelov, producer of "Ecological Design - Inventing the Future and editor of the newly released companion book, "Design Outlaws on the Ecological Frontier." In his slide show and special presentation on "The Living Schuylkill," Zelov will debut the scale model of a double pillowdome floating barge (conceived, designed and built by Jay Baldwin and John Todd) and a present a strategic overview of the project. What is the this living machine for the Schuylkill river? J. Baldwin explains: " Combine a Living Machine, geodesic Pillowdomes, and a standard cargo barge, and what do you get? An economical way to clean up the thoroughly polluted Schuylkill River slithering its way past Philadelphia. And what's a Living Machine? A Living Machine is an assemblage of tanks containing various plants and animals that interact to clean water in much the same manner as a natural wetlands. Designed by John Todd and his colleagues at Ocean Arks, International in Falmouth, Mass., Living Machines have proved to be an economical, effective way to clean foul water without resort to chemicals and expensive machinery." Zelov will also copies of his hot-off-the-presses book, "Design Outlaws on the Ecological Frontier." ECOLOGICAL DESIGN -Inventing the Future Video Produced by Chris Zelov and Brian Danitz DESIGN OUTLAWS ON THE ECOLOGICAL FRONTIER newly published companion book Edited by Chris Zelov, Phil Cousineau and Brian Danitz This excellent documentary film which came out in 1994 features the latest views, prototypes and community experiments in ecological design in the late 20th century. Beginning with the early work of Buckminster Fuller and his revolutionary ideas in architecture, design and sustainability, the film features under that same collective umbrella 25 contemporary pioneers who discuss and demonstrate present-day challenges, directions and breakthroughs in sustainability, streamline design, energy systems, transportation and industry. Both the film and its newly released companion book, "Design Outlaws on the Ecological Frontier" feature interviews with interdisciplinary ecological pioneers such as Paul McReady, Paolo Soleri, Ian McHarg, Jay Baldwin, Mary Catherine Bateson, Hazel Henderson, Amory Lovins, Ted Nelson, John Todd and Stewart Brand. For more information on the project and photos of the scale model please see J. Baldwin's news release, "The Schuylkill Maid" on the Liberty Tree Alliance's News page at: http://www.libertytree.org/News/baldwin.html (The Liberty Tree Alliance at http://www.libertytree.org/ is a hot eco site based on the West Coast - check it out!) For more information on John Todd's Living Machine ideas see his excellent article, "Living Machines for Pure Water - Sewage as a Resource" at: http://www.earthbase.org/guests/oai/oailivmachjt.html For more info on this event please contact Tony or Bonnie DeVarco at: devarco@pptnet.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 02:12:22 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John William Rich wrote: >What's the problem with using timber? It is a renewable resource. Each >timber house uses between 10 and 20 cubic metres of timber. Properly >built houses last for more than 100 years. It's renewable in principle sure. Now run a movie of the earth's forests, seen from space, on fast forward, and tell me if you see a sustainable usage pattern to date. We're talking about millions of new units here. I saw we don't have the trees and those we do have could be better left standing, or used for other purposes, given so many construction material options. Basically, I'm share Bucky's view: the aerospace sector is the place to focus if you want to see what tomorrow's options of choice will look like (of choice -- not talking force here). The idea of a wooden dwelling machine will make about as much sense as a wooden airplane or computer. >Plant five trees as a matter of respect for the timber used in your >house. The energy/pollution/resource equation is more than balanced - in >fact it is in credit on the side of the environment. Plant five trees anyway. I helped plant eleven the other day, including two in front of the wooden house (circa 1905) where I live today. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:27:16 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Re: METALS + Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Powers That Be promote a belief that monopoly is good, in the Western media. As a user of all those metals i'm not satisfied that world metal production is praiseworthy. Traditional USA brand products are often made in countries where metal production pollutes the ocean and laborer- living standards would starve or maim an average American. Easy living at the expense of others is ugly. An American tool user, trying harder, Bo Atkinson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:27:18 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Re: TREES + Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cheers to Kirby's focus on the complexity of the TREES issues. My humble sense about Fuller, hearing him on tape, is that he focused his good study before certain issues developed. Some more complicating facts suggested in a non-linear fashion: failures of the Green Revolution- especially the run off of fertilizer from agribusiness's carbon depleted soils, (organic top soils retain fertilizer near plant roots); evolving, nutritional science and the worsening problem with pesticide build up in the food chain as a new gold mine for AMA pharmaceuticals. (Many more subjects tangle in, too many to model in an email moment). Yes these seemingly separate issues are so harmfully synergetic that only alerted people will que up enough of the data at one time to see the inter relationships. But the mechanism is unchanged: power corrupts the powers that be. Drink from the LAWCAP cup at risk. Or perhaps Fuller sensed the added things i have alluded to, but had to keep an up beat sales pitch, just to keep his foot in the door. These seeming sour grapes would have limited his already distant reach. As a kid, i always drank the vinegar at the bottom of the salad bowl, (still do). Bo @kinson http://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 06:27:24 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Re: problems using timber Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:17 AM 7/23/97 +1200, you wrote: >What's the problem with using timber? It is a renewable resource. Each >timber house uses between 10 and 20 cubic metres of timber. Properly >built houses last for more than 100 years. >Plant five trees as a matter of respect for the timber used in your >house. The energy/pollution/resource equation is more than balanced - in >fact it is in credit on the side of the environment. >Regards >John Rich > May i say again, the act of planting is useless if the young trees die of overcrowding. The dying trees harbor lots of disease which fills the air, literally. I've watched the trees very closely living here in Maine, USA , for 25 years of my adult life, (living in the same place the whole time, and rarely leaving. In fact i've cared for some wood lots personally, despite the low profit in this tedious work). I was a carpenter until i could no longer bear my dedication to a glutenous clientele. Of course average users have no idea of the effects of their wood use, due to the questionable market propaganda. When i first arrived in Maine, There were numerous local timber mills. The wood quality was already low. These were mostly trees grown this century. The local mills are few now and recently one of them imported lumber from Siberia ! (in Asia, really). Even though moderation of consumption would allow for most of Maine's construction lumber to be provided locally, Maine has always imported wood from Canada. Maine does export allot of paper products, since most of the land is "owned" by the very wealthy, who may sincerely think every thing is fine down in the servants quarters and the service sector. Perhaps you, dear reader, are not aware of American wood gluttony. Many unwise Americans think nothing of tearing down recent construction and replacing it with the same thing. If it aint broke, then why fix it? Much of the local renovation in coastal Maine is of little practical advantage. If they like smelling fresh wood,to rally for new wall covering products and odorant products. Equally alarming to me is the disregard of fire safety, (as a volunteer fireman here for 10 yrs). Good fire prevention should mean non combustible architecture and low fuel content in living spaces. We are so primitive in many ways. ("Yuh just come out of the trees?";) Bo @kinson http://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 09:44:56 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: METALS + MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bo, The point is that due to recycling, doing-more-with-less, etc, the cost of metals is coming down. Pretty soon no more mining will be necessary--the recycled supply will be sufficient for man's needs. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Bo Atkinson > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: METALS + > Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 03:27 AM > > The Powers That Be promote a belief that > monopoly is good, in the Western media. > > As a user of all those metals i'm not satisfied > that world metal production is praiseworthy. > Traditional USA brand products are often > made in countries where metal production > pollutes the ocean and laborer- living standards > would starve or maim an average American. > Easy living at the expense of others is ugly. > > An American tool user, trying harder, > > Bo Atkinson > .- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:58:41 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: SURPLUS METALS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:44 AM 7/25/97 -0700, Joe wrote: >Bo, > >The point is that due to recycling, doing-more-with-less, etc, the cost of >metals is coming down. Pretty soon no more mining will be necessary--the >recycled supply will be sufficient for man's needs. > I wish i was more convinced that big business was trying harder in this regard. While many of us have indeed supported recycling in one way or another, i want to suggest that we could take a more aggressive philosophic stand. And i hope we can share updates from time to time, to defeat any residues of hopelessness which i for one, openly admit to. I've been a regular at one of Boston's best metal recyclers. (5-10 acres of ferrous and exotic metal). I've seen US Military vehicles cut in half and stacked, liquids dripping on soil without roofing overhead. And this was located very close to a municipal water supply. The vehicles would have been excellent as rural machines, (among the worlds best). I was delighted to visit this place often and obtain low cost scraps, thanks to the owners refusal to barricade it out of public sight and mind. But this illustrates again the blatant irresponsibility of the FEDs. If the place was raided by 60 Minutes, only the hard working employees would suffer. They'd ship the metals to a poorer fascist country and continue all the evil. And the approved government solution would waste even more in transportation effort, and wasteful bureaucracy. I can tell of even worse waste disposal sites any day. I believe the current system can't be patched. A major consciousness is first needed to shake the evil out. If we don't discuss it who will? Bo @kinson http://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 18:19:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: BFVI STATS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stats for the Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute Global Information: Account ID _________ Total Number Of Hits 481 Total Impressions 424 Total Unique Visitors 276 Total Reloads 57 Average Impressions/Day 9 Average Uniques/Day 5 Average Reloads/Day 1 Local Time Fri Jul 25 18:04:48 1997 Counting Since Mon Jun 9 14:06:19 1997 Last Reset Mon Jun 9 14:06:19 1997 Last Impression Fri Jul 25 12:12:53 1997 Last Unique Fri Jul 25 12:11:54 1997 Last Reload Thu Jul 24 23:48:34 1997 Web Page Audit Service: Web Side Story http://www.hitbox.com/wc/world.html **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:06:57 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The natue of science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mounce@u.washington.edu (Doug Mounce) wrote: >> a fatalistic approach to the problem of starvation on a large scale >> no longer held water, analyzing from a scientific point of view. > >Back to the essence of this thread...what is a "scientific" point of >view that would make your ordinary "point of view" more justified by >your calling it a "scientific" as if everyone understands the >importance of that label in the way you use it like some religious >icon. > Helps to have been close to the space program, to have grasped the large scale coordination culminating in various highly public events, but also in a lot of more invisible experience with critical path management -- a lot of which fed into the engineering schools (PERT analysis, directed networks and the like). When you realize how primitive were those Apollo Era computers relative to what we have now, and do the extrapolations (factoring in the World Game stuff), you come up with a lot of realistic, near future science fiction, using only known principles (no 'Federation Science') that, while storyboarded today, is slated for real time implementation tomorrow. The space program means more than probing the local neighborhood (solar system) -- it means taking care of business aboard the mother ship. >>We now had in inventory the complement of technologies and know-how >>we needed to deploy solutions and provide a lasting, sustainable high >>living standard for people. > >Here, at least, is where a religious interpretation is likely to be >more consistent than your call to scientific morality. If you begin >with the premise that self-organising biological systems are inherently >self-ish, then the idea of man sinful nature provides a better >prediction about how mankind is likely to behave regardless of >technology and "know-how". It's not fatalism, in other words, it's >selfishness. How would you suggest the nature of science can overcome >the nature of selfishness? > It's in my own selfish best interest to see the storyboards I'm collaborating on, brainstorming around, implemented in real time. Otherwise we're likely to face more hell on earth scenarios, which will negatively impact both me and my loved ones. I'm motivated by self-interest, not just altruism. A consequence of crossing this technology threshold is it became easier to converge the two. I'm not really worried about 'human nature' as my experience is humans are pretty decent creatures if not threatened with starvation or entrapment in ugly, dead end scenarios. >>This crossing changed the picture in other dimensions as well, > >I'm not a specialist with the math, but what dimensions are you >referring to? Who is doing the "crossing", and what "picture" is there >to change? > Maybe my nifty diagram at http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gst2.html would help feed content to this discussion. >>casting the intervening decades in a somewhat harsher light that >>most current historians feel is really objective. > >Who are these historians, what are they saying, and what in the hell is >"really" objective? > Historians argue about what's the best way to tell it. Literary criticism is these days working up a theory around 'master narratives' (not just one). Obviously we don't have just one historical narrative to play with. I like to track several. >>So whereas I might claim my views are historical, I'm more likely to >>be pigeon-holed as a very accomplished propagandist. > >I don't think your views have any sense of history. At least, the only >logical thing you've come up with is a repetition of the very old idea >that thinking means acting on your thinking as one and the same thing. >In addition, it is an equally old idea to call for "interdisciplinary" >research which is just a way of saying learn more about everything. I >don't hear you testing these ideas further in a way that would add >anything to them. > I don't sense that you've made any real effort to access my files. I'm willing to converse with you but not write long essays just for your benefit. You've seen the many links to Bucky Fuller no doubt, so that should give you a sense of where I'm coming from. >Others have made this type of criticism with better examples. Hempel >is entertaining, by contrasting example, with something you hint at, >but he focuses the discussion on the limitations of incremental >confirmation and the importance of background information so that the >general idea is given analogy and tested for limitation. I would agree with you that calling for a more comprehensivist approach and suggesting that 'thinking' involves 'doing' (ending up with 'having') is not at all a new idea. So I'm willing to dead end this thread. I've made my points, you've made it your job to devalue them. I'm content to let historians duke it out as to whether my contribution was useful and, if so, in what dimensions. In the meantime, I've work I need to be doing. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 00:29:05 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: FPickett Organization: Internet Texoma Subject: dome home ownership Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII Does anybody here live in a geodesic dome home? I am interrested in building or buying one and would like to know the good (and bad?) aspects. What do you like, or dislike? What reccomendations do you have? F. Pickett mandfp@texoma.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:22:25 GMT Reply-To: stutz@dsl.org Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Organization: Subject: Digital Dymaxion Maps? Hello fellow Fullerians-- Has anyone scanned in images of the Dymaxion Map yet? I would very much like to use some form of a Dymaxion Map projection in a few Web applications where a clickable world map is required. There's an overabundance of world graphics on the net whose image is based on the Mercator projection, but no Dymaxion Maps or world graphics derived from it (ie., not a "map" per se, but just graphics of the continents themselves arranged in their "World Pinwheel" outward spiral from North Pole as opposed to North America Capitalism on the left vs. Europa-Asia Communism on the right dueling continent arrangement). This kind of artwork would be immensely useful not only in design science ventures, but in spreading awareness of Fuller's great work on the net. It's been a looong time since I've been around these parts, but for me it has _not_ been time wasted. I look forward to sharing the results of my work as well as catching up with everyone else's explorations in Universe. m -- Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is email stutz@dsl.org free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO WARRANTY; for details see . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 08:55:49 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Digital Dymaxion Maps? Comments: To: stutz@dsl.org In-Reply-To: (stutz@dsl.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII WorldSat International Inc. 1495 Bonhill Road, Unit 10 Mississauga, Ontario Canada L5T 1M2 905-795-0093 This company sells a high-resolution dymaxion bitmap created from landsat imagery. I used one of these in my "Information Highway" exhibit at the Ontario Science Centre. Contact Robert Stacy and tell him I sent you. Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN ------------------------------------------------- Test the impossible ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 09:31:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: NEW BUCKY FORUMS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From the MSNBC SciTech Bulletin Board: [http://131.107.1.68/bbs/msnbc-scitech/1187.htm] Subject: Re: BUCKMINSTER FULLER webpages From: 21st Century Network Host: kauai-128.u.aloha.NET Date: Thu Jul 24 00:35 We Do! http://21net.com We have a whole lot of information about Bucky. cheers@\ The specific Bucky pages are: http://21net.com/online/bucky100.htm http://21net.com/online/buckcads.htm http://21net.com/online/buckdome.htm We'll have a Bucky Forum for members later this fall! Cheers! On Sat Jul 19 11:35, Joe S. Moore wrote: > Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the ideas of R. Buckminster > Fuller? Is there a conspiracy of silence? **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:18:35 +0000 Reply-To: barretts@is.usmo.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Alan Subject: Re: dome home ownership MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FPickett wrote: > > Does anybody here live in a geodesic dome home? I am interrested in building > or buying one and would like to know the good (and bad?) aspects. What do you > like, or dislike? What reccomendations do you have? > > F. Pickett > mandfp@texoma.net I love mine! Send me your reservation list. Alan Barrett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 14:48:20 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: SYNERGETICS ON THE INTERNET Comments: cc: SYNERGETICS _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Kirby Urner, quote: "Just wanted to be clear for the record that Synergetics is alive and well on the internet, with the full text of the two volumes slated to appear in the public domain sometime this August, the copyright having devolved from Macmillan back to the Estate + Applewhite, both having agreed to go the Java route:..." [I wish someone would post some kind of OFFICIAL notice, instead of me having to glean snippets of info from various sources!!! JSM] **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 03:27:00 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "" Subject: Re: dome home ownership I have the same questions. If you are responding via email, please include me! Else I'll get the info from your postings here. Thanks. M. Gray cygnus42@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 07:07:50 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Filip De Vos Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium Subject: Re: METALS + Joe S. Moore (joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM) wrote: : Bo, : The point is that due to recycling, doing-more-with-less, etc, the cost of : metals is coming down. Pretty soon no more mining will be necessary--the And with the price of metal going down, and the cost of mining and smelting going up, mining will become so uneconomical that it will gradually peter out. Engineering of goods with recycling in mind also lowers costs of re-use. For instance cars are allready designed to be easily taken apart after their service life of ten years or so, as well as easily built. : recycled supply will be sufficient for man's needs. -- Filip De Vos The idea that space travel is inherently enormously expensive is fraudulent. FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be John S. Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:22:17 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Re: METALS + Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:07 AM 7/27/97 GMT, you wrote: >Joe S. Moore (joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM) wrote: >: Bo, > >: The point is that due to recycling, doing-more-with-less, etc, the cost of >: metals is coming down. Pretty soon no more mining will be necessary--the > >And with the price of metal going down, and the cost of mining and >smelting going up, mining will become so uneconomical that it will >gradually peter out. Engineering of goods with recycling in mind also >lowers costs of re-use. For instance cars are allready designed to be >easily taken apart after their service life of ten years or so, as well as >easily built. > >: recycled supply will be sufficient for man's needs. > >-- >Filip De Vos The idea that space travel is inherently > enormously expensive is fraudulent. >FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be John S. Lewis > > Excellent. Hmmmm is that why my cars keep falling apart? (heh heh ;) Not smelting products is even more efficient. Demand cars that really don't need to be totally smelted. And food habits which don't require littering (via inevitable land fills and make-work smelting travels, etc.). Seems as though allot of car marketing is based on vanity of fickle fashions and those lazy stock holders, who particularly don't contribute any of their own work, (past or present). Bucky praised Henry Ford but suggested that Ford and other autos all went down hill, efficiency/ progressively speaking, after Henry made the giant evolutionary steps of production, (and really broke the monopoly hold of the powers that be, on the mineral smelting end of auto manufacturing). So one of Bucky's points about recycling was that "powers that be" (or what ever polite term he used), would finally be assuaged about "raping the earth for minerals". (Please excuse my lack of more precise references). I doubt this has significantly occurred yet, but if we keep the consciousness up, we will assist with realizing Bucky's good expectations. "Keep working" or it will never happen, is an associated point. BTW does any one know of a study which *maps* the relative costs of recycling cans and bottles (for consumer products). It would be interesting to see this principle studied in detail. EG: does recycling glass and cans far from packaging manufacturers really pay? And would this study take into account that some municipalities charge tax payers for this work of recycling, perhaps separately form the cost of smelting old products for mineral content? (We need to assure that statisticians take all factors into account). Bo @kinson http://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:18:35 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: Building Tensegrity Structures : real & imagined, learning & fun, thinking & doing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Paul Flavin > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: syn-l: Building Tensegrity Structures : real & imagined, learning & fun, thinking & doing > Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 07:30 AM > > > > Roger and I spent the day building Structors. A learning experience! > > [ cut, from ] > Subject: syn-l: Building Structors From: > CDBriddell@AOL.COM > > > Tensegrity Structures have always intrigued me, and I've revisited them > to teach myself, and have indulged myself into thinking that I've helped > others by using tensegrity structures to entice others into learning the > math that they might have otherwise chosen to avoid with disdain. > > My primary interest is in using computers and the web to learn and teach > in an enticing and exploratory fashion, which invovles a convergance of > graphics, mathematics, and whatever historical or technical novelties that > I find apealling or intresting, which include Fuller, da Vinci, scantily > clad women; all of wich seam to converge on using Java. > > I have several web pages that may be of intrest to Fuller fans, including > a web page interactive Java program that renders the Quadric Surfaces with > a user friendly combination rectangular, cylindrical, and spherical > coordinate system GUI. > > I've included some of the URLs below, and I hope that some of you find > them intesting or useful. > > Sincerely, > > Paul Flavin ( imaging @ frontiernet.net ) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Rendering the Quadric Surfaces ( Interactive 3d Java program ) > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~imaging/raytracing.html > > Tensegrities ( Real & computer manifestations, 4 pages ) > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~imaging/tenseg1.html > > Imaging the Imagined: Raytracing tips from da Vinci & me. > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~imaging/contents.html > > The Platonic Solids > > http://www.frontiernet.net/~imaging/polyh.html > > //____ end ____ > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:07:58 GMT Reply-To: Donald Phillipson Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Donald Phillipson Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Subject: Re: The natue of science Comments: cc: pdx4d@teleport.com Kirby Urner (pdx4d@teleport.com posted July 25: >Helps to have been close to the space program, to have grasped the >large scale coordination culminating in various highly public events, >but also in a lot of more invisible experience with critical path >management -- a lot of which fed into the engineering schools (PERT >analysis, directed networks and the like). . . . > >. . . So I'm willing to dead end this thread. I've made my points, >you've made it your job to devalue them. I'm content to let >historians duke it out as to whether my contribution was useful and, >if so, in what dimensions. 1. Urner implies greater faith than most posters feel in the new hardware and "decision technology" associated with the space programme. Actual critical events (Apollo 13, Challenger disaster, recent accidents aboard Mir etc.) suggest real space systems have never yet been so automated as to be automatically failure proof and to require no original human intervention -- which weakens their strength as new models of anything. 2. The ideal process of debate focuses less on the substance disagreements than on the reasons each side offers why its data or interpretations ought to convince the other: but you cannot have these rival reasons without the disagreements first (which is the way scientific research makes much of its progress.) Arguing about smallish details is a distinct Kuhnian class of activity, between his extremes of "normal science," i.e. filling the blanks, and revolutionizing paradigms, which may be as bulky as "normal science." -- | Donald Phillipson, 4180 Boundary Road, Carlsbad Springs, | | Ontario, Canada, K0A 1K0, tel. 613 822 0734 | ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:41:08 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Recycling In-Reply-To: (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu) Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I don't have any hard data on this, but one observation: The city of Toronto was having a lot of problem some months ago with garbage theft. Apparently the value of the recycle-bin contents is so high the police were called in to ride shotgun over the collector routes to ensure none of the precious bins were stolen or pillaged. Again, without hard data, I have heard waste-product experts on the TV say more than once the cost and environmental cost of using the extra trucks for recycled collection is more costly than the saving, especially when the material must be manually sifted of errant trash at the receiving end. I have long believed a better approach would be to collect the trash en masse and hire otherwise unemployed people to manually (and expertly) sift it. Domestic trash recycling, and the current anti-smoking hysteria, remind me of Fuller's observation on the recycling of wartime domestic metal: It is easier to bully the populace than to bully G.R.U.N.C.H. to clean up it's act. Again, in Toronto, while most public places are holier-than-thou smoke-free, the average jogger inhales two packs of virtual cigarettes per day. I wonder if the same holds true for recycled cans, bottles and paper. Just a thought. Gary Lawrence Murphy - TeleDynamics - (519)422-1150 f(519):422-2723 mailto:garym@sos.on.ca - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/7704 http://www.sos.on.ca/~garym - RR#1 7 Forest Pl Sauble Beach, Ont CAN ------------------------------------------------- Test the impossible ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: HILL Subject: Re: METALS + In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970727112040.006d2f10@agate.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII buckminster found that the return of metals already processed had a return rate of number of years. he fund out by researching on his own for the phelps dodge company. he mentions the work in critical path. perhaps something similar could be used. stephen hillcorp@falcon.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:13:35 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Fw: syn-l: My Perspective (long post) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Roan Carratu > To: synergetics-l@teleport.com > Subject: syn-l: My Perspective (long post) > Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 03:57 AM > > After putting new toenail marks on my tonsils, I was hesitant to post to > this list for a while, but... > > I realized that most of the information I was being given in school was > bogus when I was ten years old. I was at my grandmother's house high on > a hill next to Fort Leavenworth and had just finished watching the last > Howdy Doody Show, with the puppets and cast all bemoaning the demise of > their employment. For the first time I realized something could end, > and having been raised in the military, I pushed at my imagination and > saw a vision... I saw my grandmother's house in ruins, all the trees > blasted apart, the houses only rubble around me, and off in the > distance, a huge crater where the Fort had been. > > (My IQ was about 200, so I often had extremely complex imaginative > visions at a very early age.) > > The next thought was, 'if the stuff I was being taught was valid, then > the world would not be on the edge of nuclear war.'. From then on, I > rejected almost everything I was taught as being just another pile of > crap. I decided I would seek to understand Universe by sampling all > kinds of 'knowledge' and subcultures, and their mental constructions, in > order to find out if any of it could be true or if the subcultures had > any kind of real knowledge. Suffice it to say, I drove my teachers > crazy and turned into one neurotic teenager. (I was one who got up and > told the geometry teacher that the 'point' was a pile of chock, and if a > point didn't exist, then how could we make infinite lines of them...) > > I started my search in the Army, becoming a Green Beret and even going > to Officer Candidate School. After finding that the military was the > source of most violence on the planet, and that the subculture, (as > compared to most of the solders), was about as nasty as it could get, > one extreme of human behavior, I dropped out of the Berets and gave up > my commission. After I was assigned to an airborne division, the > military ordered my division to Washington to kill protesters in a kind > of Tien Min Square Massacre long before the Chinese slaughter, and after > seeing through the propaganda and 'kill and not be held responsible' pep > speeches by officers, I refused to go. I knew I was facing life in > prison, but I would not go and kill people who were just exercising > their rights under the Constitution... not to mention the pure > immorality of slaughtering innocents. Remember, the Army after W.W.I > did kill the vets who protested in Washington, and I would be no part of > another such killing. This protest, the largest that occurred, was not > just students, but consisted of all walks of life and many many > children. > > Then I saw something so amazing I still get chills from it. When I went > back up to my bunk, in a room with 60 other bunks, I saw man after man > come up without a weapon, which meant that they too had refused to > participate. An officer came up and threatened to read the Articles of > Mutiny, but none moved. I was called down and questioned, and I told > them why I wouldn't do it, and then sent back up, and man after man was > called down and returned, without weapons. > > Then the sergeants came up with our passes and leave papers, and it was > if the whole thing had never occurred. I rarely speak of this, because > it was like an unwritten, unspoken agreement that it not be told. I > assumed the Commanding General had told the big brass that the Division > was unreliable and the solders who would go with guns may well turn on > their own officers rather than shoot the protesters. But I saw something > so eventful that I think it is a bit of data you all need. > > The men who refused were of all conceptual bent and subcultures; drug > addicts, acid heads, alcoholics, even 'kill them all and let God sort > them out' right wing extremists. Yet, with my own eyes, I saw them > refuse to do that slaughter. And beyond that, the same thing happened > in every barracks throughout that Division... thousand upon thousands of > men of different conceptual beliefs just refusing to go to Washington > and kill people despite the possibility of going to prison for life. > > I wondered at this for many years, then I read that Nixon, that weekend, > had ordered the nuclear bombing of Hanoi to end the war once and for > all. The Soviets had stated that if we nuked Hanoi, they would attack us > with everything they had, and the generals around Nixon had advised him > that it was a bluff. KGB files from that time state that they were > prepared to carry out their Thermonuclear response. Nixon was in the > White House because he felt it was the proper place to meet the press > after a nuke attack on Hanoi, and found himself surrounded by protesters > in the largest antiwar demonstration yet, and wanted us to come up and > protect him, and end the war protests by a major show of force, > (slaughter). > > When the Division refused, he realized that the protests might well > become a mob and go through the fences and defenses of the White House > like a lava flow through a wood home, so he canceled the Bomb and left > town. If I, and all those many others, had gone to Washington, none of > us would live right now to debate our concepts and efforts. If you know > the Army, you can understand what an outrageous event it was for so many > to refuse an order. > > I realized that while humans think that our conceptual models are the > highest form of action generation, that there is something else that > moves and motivates people on really large scales. Not just when there > are slaughters, (look at the Nazis) or wars and such, but when the whole > planet is threatened... by thermonuclear war, for instance. I think it > works in individuals also, and may cause whole populations to change the > way they think, or at least act, over time. I consider it to be the > best evidence I have of the existence of a semi-sentient global field I > call Gaia, a field that contains all our minds, a synergy of mind and > biofield. > Since, like Fuller, (but not from Fuller) I believe that intelligence is > a phenomena of Universe existent throughout Universe, everywhere it can > exist, (my definition of 'God'), I don't think some kind of > 'supernatural' force affected us... I think it was supremely Natural and > I think it is working in us all the time on some deep level. While my > explanation of it is conjecture, the event did occur, and it was totally > extraordinary. > > But because of this, I have been working on 'saving the planet' for > thirty years. I work on it because I know it is required that someone > work on it, but I also know it is doable. We are far more than we think > we are, and we did not evolve to fail. > > My strategy is not to try to change minds, even by teaching them > Synergetics, although that helps, but rather to change people's lives by > altering the technology they have access to on the largest scales. Then > they more readily change their minds, learn new and more reliable > paradigms, to fit the new technology they personally use. I think > computers are showing this every day, as many people who said, "I don't > need no damn computer" are busy over keyboards all over the world. > -- > Peace and Good Health > > -Roan > > Personal Page: http://www.mindspring.com/~roan > > Author: Synertec Strategy http://artistexpress.com > .- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 16:10:43 +1000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "R.K. Treutlein" Subject: Re: Recycling In-Reply-To: <199707272341.TAA13332@maya.sos.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 19:41 27/07/97 -0400, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: > I have long believed a better approach would >be to collect the trash en masse and hire otherwise unemployed people >to manually (and expertly) sift it. > This of course is allready being done. You collect your garbage and ship it to a third world country, where the otherwise unemployed people manually, (and more or less expertly) sift it. How else can they get that indicator of technological excellence (the stinking landfill) that they *need* so much. Rudi T. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 05:22:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: DIGITIZATION OF SYNERGETICS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Joe S. Moore" wrote: >Quote: > >"Epsilon" with its undulating symmetry is the fifth porcelain buckyball of >the Presentation Series. It was presented to E.J. Applewhite on June 20, >1997. Applewhite, known best for his longtime collaboration with >Buckminster Fuller on his magnum opus, Synergetics and Synergetics 2, is >an author and "professional layman" living in Washington D.C. > <> > >http://www.west.net/~bjaber/epsilon.html > Thanks for the link Joe. I'm falling behind keeping my website up to date vis-a-vis the exploding inventory of Synergetics related materials on the web, but I'm visiting and appreciating wherever I can -- certainly this porcelain site is fine. And I'm glad to learn Ed got one from the Presentation Series for his collection. Certainly our inventory is filling with goodies -- thanks to a lot of hard work all around. Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:40:05 +1200 Reply-To: J.W.Rich@xtra.co.nz Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John William Rich Organization: geodesics.nz Subject: Re: the wonderful octet truss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Kirby, Kirby Urner wrote: > will look like (of choice -- not talking force here). The idea of > a wooden dwelling machine will make about as much sense as a wooden > airplane or computer. What's wrong with a timber aeroplane - it would be lighter, safer, more durable, more energy efficient in construction and operation. Boeing 747's made from Glulam, LVL, plywood, honeycomb paper, cellulose etc? And a wooden computer, as I've mentioned before in this NG is called an abacus. > >Plant five trees as a matter of respect for the timber used in your > >house. The energy/pollution/resource equation is more than balanced - in > >fact it is in credit on the side of the environment. > > Plant five trees anyway. I helped plant eleven the other day, > including two in front of the wooden house (circa 1905) where > I live today. Will this notion of don't chop down trees extend one day to lettuces, potatoes, marine algae etc. I personally believe that the aerospace technology you mention will take a second look at timber, amongst the reasons is the one that I can design a far larger dome out of timber than out of any metal - and one day the aerospace boys might really need some major sized buildings, or even floatables (Cloud Nines). My major problem with metals is the energy requirement to smelt them and where that comes from. As a muesli munching, macrame underwear, quiche stained, trendy liberal, anti-nuclear Kiwi who totally believes in land rights for gay paraplegic whales, I don't believe you can ignore this issue - an economy based on the consumption of Nuclear Power is false, and thus makes cheap materials which are not really cheap - one day we will either pay heavily to clean up the mess or die - in the meantime while this monster runs its course the only saving grace if you are going to use such materials is to make things which last (in contrast to the programmed obsolesence philosophy) and re-cycle, re-cycle, re-cycle. Best Regards, John Rich Auckland New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 15:06:49 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bo Atkinson Subject: Re: METALS + recycling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:07 AM 7/27/97 GMT, you wrote: >Joe S. Moore (joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM) wrote: >: Bo, > >: The point is that due to recycling, doing-more-with-less, etc, the cost of >: metals is coming down. Pretty soon no more mining will be necessary-- >......................... >And with the price of metal going down, and the cost of mining and >smelting going up, mining will become so uneconomical that it will >gradually peter out. Engineering of goods with recycling in mind also >lowers costs of re-use. For instance cars are allready designed to be >easily taken apart after their service life of ten years or so, as well as >easily built. > >: recycled supply will be sufficient for man's needs. >-- >Filip De Vos Hmmmm is that why my cars keep falling apart? (heh heh ;) Not smelting products is even more efficient. Demand cars that really don't need to be totally smelted. And food habits which don't require littering (via inevitable land fills and make-work re- smelting, excess transport, etc.). Seems as though allot of car marketing is based on vanity of fickle fashions . Bucky praised Henry Ford but suggested that Ford M. Co. and other autos all went down hill, efficiency/ progressively speaking, after Henry made the giant evolutionary steps of production.(And Bucky praised Henry for really breaking the monopoly hold of the powers that be, on the mineral smelting end of auto manufacturing). So one of Bucky's points about recycling was that "powers that be" (or what ever polite term he used), would finally be assuaged about "raping the earth for minerals". (Please excuse my lack of more precise references). I doubt this assuaging has significantly occurred yet, but if we keep the consciousness up, we will assist with realizing Bucky's good expectations. "Keep voting in the market place" or it will never happen, is the point i'm concerned with. BTW does any one know of a study which *maps* the relative costs of recycling cans and bottles (for consumer products). It would be interesting to see this principle studied in detail. EG: does recycling glass and cans far from packaging manufacturers really pay? And would this study take into account that some municipalities charge tax payers for this work of recycling, perhaps separately form the cost of smelting old products for mineral content? (We need to assure that statisticians take all factors into account). Bo @kinson http://www.agate.net/~insearch ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 14:39:35 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: NEW BUCKY FORUMS Comments: To: Steve Brant MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, I posted a message to the MSNBC message board. 21st Century Network posted the reply you see below. 21st Century Network will have a Bucky Forum for members later this fall--NOT MSNBC or the Microsoft Network. Sorry for the confusion. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Steve Brant > To: Joe S. Moore > Subject: Re: NEW BUCKY FORUMS > Date: Saturday, July 26, 1997 04:28 PM > > Dear Joe, > > Thanks very much for posting the following: > > >>From the MSNBC SciTech Bulletin Board: > >[http://131.107.1.68/bbs/msnbc-scitech/1187.htm] > > > >Subject: Re: BUCKMINSTER FULLER webpages > >From: 21st Century Network > >Host: kauai-128.u.aloha.NET > >Date: Thu Jul 24 00:35 > > > >We Do! http://21net.com > > > >We have a whole lot of information about Bucky. cheers@\ > > > >The specific Bucky pages are: > > > >http://21net.com/online/bucky100.htm > >http://21net.com/online/buckcads.htm > >http://21net.com/online/buckdome.htm > > > >We'll have a Bucky Forum for members later this fall! > > > >Cheers! > > > > I will check them out. Am I correct that this came from MSNBC and that > the "members" they are referring to are members of the Microsoft Network? > > Best regards, > > Steve > > > Steven G. Brant, President > Trimtab Management Systems > "Charting new routes to the 21st Century" > > 81 Ocean Parkway, Suite 3H, Brooklyn, NY 11218-1754 USA > (718) 972-0949 (voice) (718) 972-3465 (fax) > sbrant@trimtab.com http://www.trimtab.com > -------------------------------------------------- > "It no longer has to be you or me." > - R. Buckminster Fuller > -------------------------------------------------- > > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:33:41 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Filip De Vos Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium Subject: Re: The natue of science Donald Phillipson (ad201@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote: : Kirby Urner (pdx4d@teleport.com posted July 25: : 1. Urner implies greater faith than most posters feel in the new hardware : and "decision technology" associated with the space programme. Actual : critical events (Apollo 13, Challenger disaster, recent accidents aboard : Mir etc.) suggest real space systems have never yet been so automated as I think Kirby was talking about the flight-control center and other decision-support technologies, not actual hardware in orbit. Since the cost of putting people up there was so high (unfortunately it still is), methods had to be found for humans to make decisions here on the ground, which requires that information about the spacecraft had to be brought down to them, and somehow presented in a meaningful way to them. These technologies are applicable to more pedestrian uses and certainly look valuable to me. : to be automatically failure proof and to require no original human ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ One was not neccesary, the other was not the intention. : intervention -- which weakens their strength as new models of anything. Why? -- Filip De Vos The idea that space travel is inherently enormously expensive is fraudulent. FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be John S. Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:35:32 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: S.O.S Comments: To: ABD-YAD@neda.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Look in my web pages under: "Selected Ideas/Icosahedra/..."; "Links" section under "FAQ", "Geometry", "Shelter" & "Software"; "Bibliography" section under "Books About" **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: ABD-YAD@neda.net > To: vencat@aol.com; joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: S.O.S > Date: Monday, July 28, 1997 03:39 PM > > > DEAR FREIND : > HI,I AM A CIVIL ENGINEERING UNIVERSITY STUDENT. I AM WORKING ON A > PROJECT ON "GEODESIC DOMES". > WOULD YOU PLEASE GIVE ME SOME INFORMATION ABOUT IT ? I WANT TO > KNOW WHAT IT IS MADE FROM , GEOMETRIC STRUCTURE OF IT SPECIALLY DRAWN > BY "AutoCAD" OR "3DSTUDIO" OR ANY OTHER .DWG , .3DS PERTAINED TO IT , > WHICH CAN HELP ME TO DRAW IT OR ANY OTHER DETAILS . AND SOME > INFORMATION ABOUT PLATE CONJUNCTION AND ITS ISOLATION AGAINST WATER. > > > PLEASE SEND YOUR INFORMATION TO "ABD-YAD@NEDA.NET" .IT IS BETTER TO > COMPACT THEM WITH PKZIP OR LHARC. > > LOOKING FORWARD > A.YAD > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:44:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Need Info on DOME PROTOTYPE Comments: To: Jeniblu@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Jeniblu@aol.com > To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com > Subject: Need Info on DOME PROTOTYPE > Date: Sunday, July 27, 1997 04:34 PM > > Hi, > I too am an independant studant and fan of the late great trim tab. I > just found this whole world here, being new to computers and have been in > heaven searching through these posts. I live in Florida and for years I have > been trying to find any information about natural air-conditioning. I read in Look in my web pages under "Selected Ideas/Conclusion/Energy/Free Air Conditioning" > one book about how they discovered it but that's all I've ever been able to > find. I think I understood how it was built in but not why it worked. I have > been trying to discover if anyone anywhere was using this valuable > information. To date I have found no companies building domes that even tried > to incorporate it into their designs, especially in Florida, or in the > desert, not in any really hot climate which I found astounding. i have been Most dome manufacturers are STILL not aware of Bucky's discovery! > trying to build a model that would use it but I'm not yet tpo good at > building models. Please if you can givce me any info as to how to include > this feature I would really appreciate it. I lived in Drop City for quite a > while when I was young and fell madly in love with domes. I always wondered > who the people were who created such incredible structures. Never found out. > Many years later I was watching A&E and learned who Bucky was. Then I started > reading evertything I could. Just heard about this new book Buckyworks, can't Check out my "Bibliography" section. > wait to read it. I really would appreciate any info you can give me about > this dome. Materials. Thank you. I can be reached via e-mail at > Jeniblu@AOL.COM > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:36:46 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Digital Dymaxion Maps? Comments: To: stutz@dsl.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Michael Stutz > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Digital Dymaxion Maps? > Date: Friday, July 25, 1997 09:22 PM > > Hello fellow Fullerians-- > > Has anyone scanned in images of the Dymaxion Map yet? I would very much like > to use some form of a Dymaxion Map projection in a few Web applications > where a clickable world map is required. There's an overabundance of world > graphics on the net whose image is based on the Mercator projection, but no > Dymaxion Maps or world graphics derived from it (ie., not a "map" per se, > but just graphics of the continents themselves arranged in their "World > Pinwheel" outward spiral from North Pole as opposed to North America > Capitalism on the left vs. Europa-Asia Communism on the right dueling > continent arrangement). In my web pages (URL above) see "Links/Mapping/..." > > This kind of artwork would be immensely useful not only in design science > ventures, but in spreading awareness of Fuller's great work on the net. > > It's been a looong time since I've been around these parts, but for me it > has _not_ been time wasted. I look forward to sharing the results of my work > as well as catching up with everyone else's explorations in Universe. > > m > > -- > Copyright (c) 1997 Michael Stutz; this information is > email stutz@dsl.org free and may be reproduced under GNU GPL, and as long > as this sentence remains; it comes with absolutely NO > WARRANTY; for details see . > .- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:10:59 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: BFI & SDFBF FINANCES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From the Internet Nonprofit Center, quote: Nonprofit Locater Results Search keyword: BUCKMINSTER Search state: CA --------------------------------------- BUCKMINSTER FULLER INSTITUTE 2040 ALAMEDA PADRE SERRA, 224 SANTA BARBARA, CA 93103-1760 Activity 199995000 Assets $557,251 Income $262,629 --------------------------------------- SAN DIEGO FRIENDS OF BUCKMINSTER FULLER 4905 ART STREET SAN DIEGO, CA 92115-2511 Activity 320000000 Assets $000,000 Income $000,000 ---------------------------------------- Unquote. (Not sure what year--JSM) http://www.nonprofits.org/ **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 06:41:42 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Thomas Mundell Subject: Bucky in American Scientist Comments: To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Buckytubes are discussed in the July-August issue of American Scientist magazine. The idea of using buckytubes for a space elevator is diplayed on the cover. Arthur C. Clarke had pesented such an elevator in Fountains of Paradise book. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:38:06 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harmon Seaver Organization: Maddog Press Subject: Re: Fw: syn-l: My Perspective (long post) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess I don't understand why all this stuff is being forwarded to the geodesic list??? Especially without editing -- just quoting a few specific passages would be one thing, but post after forwarded post is a bit much. What it often comes down to is that I'm getting doubles, triplicates, even quadruples of the same post, everyday, over and over. Can't we just assume that if people are interested, they would subscribe to all the appropriate lists, and thus -- CROSS-POSTING AND FORWARDING ARE USELESS NOISE! -- Harmon Seaver hseaver@dibbs.net http://www.dibbs.net/~hseaver ======================================================================= All is impermanent, but this too shall pass away, and the way of the Samurai is death -- so speak your mind now, or forever hold your peace. ======================================================================= Copyright, Harmon F. Seaver, 1997. License to distribute this post is available to Microsoft for US$1,000 per instance, or local equivalent. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 08:42:59 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Bucky in American Scientist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See: R. E. Smalley Presentation (paper) "From Balls to Tubes to Ropes: New Materials from Carbon" American Institute of Chemical Engineers , S.Texas Section Meeting in Houston - January 4, 1996 http://cust.rice.edu/aiche96 (The paragraphs near figure 22.) http://cust.rice.edu/images/001.jpg See also page 51 of _Fountains of Paradise_ (1978). **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Thomas Mundell > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Bucky in American Scientist > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 03:41 AM > > Buckytubes are discussed in the July-August issue of American > Scientist magazine. The idea of using buckytubes for a space > elevator is diplayed on the cover. Arthur C. Clarke had > pesented such an elevator in Fountains of Paradise book. > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:02:37 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Bucky in American Scientist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit See http://www.amsci.org/amsci/articles/97articles/Yakobson.html **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Thomas Mundell > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Bucky in American Scientist > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 03:41 AM > > Buckytubes are discussed in the July-August issue of American > Scientist magazine. The idea of using buckytubes for a space > elevator is diplayed on the cover. Arthur C. Clarke had > pesented such an elevator in Fountains of Paradise book. > .- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 13:35:36 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Indigo1567@AOL.COM Subject: Dome Houses Comments: To: geodesic@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu I just wanted to know if you knew of a address i can write to or where i could go to get more information on dome houses. I want to learn about how you build one the costs to build it, and where you would buy your supplies to build one? If you can help please e-mail me at: Orange1000@aol.com Thanks, Mary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:05:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The natue of science Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ad201@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Donald Phillipson) wrote: >1. Urner implies greater faith than most posters feel in the new hardware >and "decision technology" associated with the space programme. Actual >critical events (Apollo 13, Challenger disaster, recent accidents aboard >Mir etc.) suggest real space systems have never yet been so automated as >to be automatically failure proof and to require no original human >intervention -- which weakens their strength as new models of anything. > I'm not talking about eliminating human intelligence from the executive decision-making role -- I'm not a big fan of the old AI paradigm (thinking we could somehow encode the 'rules' and shuff off responsibility for thinking onto HAL-type systems). I'm talking about setting goals, milestones, and storyboarding the several parallel tracks (convergent/divergent) required to achieve them. As a kid, I was impressed by Apollo for its scripted positions (mission control:"Lights?" astronaut: "Check") which links to 'program' (in the sense of theater) and to a 'main sequence or count down' (T-minus to lift off, then T-plus) -- all these tasks were synchronized relative to some 'main clock'. When you look at Spaceship Earth as 'already launched' but still in need of on board systems upgrading (in many cases to compensate for rampant downgrading executed by humans with only a dim sense of acting within a space program), then it becomes logical to think of one's life as a thread in a multi-threaded, highly intertwisting (convergent/divergent) critical path scenario, with a 'main clock' marking time as we move towards milestones. >2. The ideal process of debate focuses less on the substance >disagreements than on the reasons each side offers why its data or >interpretations ought to convince the other: but you cannot have these >rival reasons without the disagreements first (which is the way scientific >research makes much of its progress.) Arguing about smallish details is a >distinct Kuhnian class of activity, between his extremes of "normal >science," i.e. filling the blanks, and revolutionizing paradigms, which >may be as bulky as "normal science." > Sometimes the gulf between paradigms is such that "reaching agreement" is not a likelihood from the get go. Kuhn talks about this in his book: science, like other enterprises, depends on attrition to supply the necessary turnover, while on the front end of the pipeline, the focus is on recruitment of talented and skilled newcomers to the various competing disciplines. Like, welcome to the machine (Pink Floyd). Kirby ---------------------------------------------------- Kirby Urner "ALL realities are 'virtual'" -- KU Email: pdx4d@teleport.com Web: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 21:00:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: gray Organization: KAIWAN Internet Subject: tetrahedra Does anyone know what happened to the plastics processor that had tetrahedra, or octet module molding capabilities? There used to be a place in Oxnard, CA that developed a process to make these things all in one piece. They moved, and I don't know where to, or what their name was. I remember seeing a number of articles with photos about them, and they looked like a great thing to have. (that was several years ago). I actually have a use for them now, if only I could find the place. Info would be appreciated. [was this ambiguous enough?] Thanks, Gray. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 07:53:04 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Dome Houses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In my web pages (URL below) look in the "Links" section under "Shelter/domes/..." **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: Indigo1567@AOL.COM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Dome Houses > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 10:35 AM > > I just wanted to know if you knew of a address i can write to or where i > could go to get more information on dome houses. I want to learn about how > you build one the costs to build it, and where you would buy your supplies to > build one? If you can help please e-mail me at: Orange1000@aol.com > > Thanks, > Mary > .- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:03:49 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: tetrahedra MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ---------- > From: gray > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: tetrahedra > Date: Wednesday, July 30, 1997 09:00 PM > > Does anyone know what happened to the plastics processor You mean fiberglass or some other type of plastic? that had > tetrahedra, or octet module molding capabilities? You mean for toys or for people to live in? > > There used to be a place in Oxnard, CA that developed a process to make > these things all in one piece. Injection molding? They moved, and I don't know where to, or > what their name was. > > I remember seeing a number of articles with photos about them, and they Were the articles in newspapers, magazines, E-zines, or what? > looked like a great thing to have. (that was several years ago). I > actually have a use for them now, if only I could find the place. What do you want to make? > > Info would be appreciated. [was this ambiguous enough?] > > Thanks, > > Gray. > .- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:45:00 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: ll Subject: Fwd: GENI Op-Ed . . .No Cure? Comments: To: Mission Earth , World Game - Medard Gabel ------------------------------------------------------------ >From nic.cerf.net Received: from hil-img-4.compuserve.com (hil-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.177.134]) by nic.cerf.net (1.1.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24881 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 09:53:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-4.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.2) id MAA05896; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: 21 Jul 97 12:57:12 EDT From: GENI <75543.520@CompuServe.COM> To: BlindCopyReceiver:; Subject: GENI Op-Ed . . .No Cure? Message-ID: <970721165712_75543.520_GHJ36-1@CompuServe.COM> There are many indications that the world is heading in a positive direction. And then there are events that get me very upset, so I write an opinion-editorial and send it to over 140 key media around the world. I want you to have it first -- and welcome any re-publication you deem appropriate. As introduction, last month many world leaders convened in New York for the Rio+5 conference -- to review our collective progress since the Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro in 1992. You may recall that 6 GENI supporters attended the Global Forum, presenting the GRID Initiative to thousands of people from around the world. That meeting was the largest ever gathering of world leaders who committed to improving the global environmental condition and reducing poverty. Now, in June 1997, the President and Prime Ministers reconvened, observed the statistics getting worse in most every major catagory and said, "we must do better." The headline that set me off was: "World Leaders say Earth is sick, but fail to agree on a cure." (NY Times 6/28/97) So, I wrote the following article. Please consider sharing this with your own e-mail colleages or reprinting it in publications that you read or edit. Thank you for your time, Peter Meisen For your consideration: Opinion/Editorial Peter Meisen President, Global Energy Network International (GENI) No cure for a sick world? or Asking the right question for Spaceship Earth Five years ago, the largest-ever gathering of world leaders met in Rio de Janeiro for the Earth Summit. They pledged to take better care of our planet; reducing pollution, protecting biodiversity and saving rainforests. At the United Nations last month, Rio+5 convened to assess our collective progress. In almost every category, any objective reporter would give us a failing grade. The headline nearly screamed, "World leaders say Earth is sick, but fail to agree on a cure." World population has grown by half a billion people. Atmospheric pollution, especially greenhouse gases have climbed to all-time highs. The gap between rich and poor countries has widened. The onslaught against forests continues for their fuel and hardwoods. In addition, Secretary General Kofi Annan summarised the UN Development Program's annual report saying that "100 nations are worse off today than 15 years ago, with 1.3 billion people earning less than $1 per day." Razali Ismail of Malaysia, President of the General Assembly admonished the Rio+5 delegates saying "We as a species -- as a planet -- are teetering on the edge, living unsustainably and perpetuating inequity, and may soon pass the point of no return." Environmental champion Vice President Al Gore declared that "we must role up our sleeves and go to work." At the Denver Summit of the Eight, President Clinton bragged about the robust US economy, and was chided one week later for our 5% increase in CO2 emissions. Five months from now, the world leaders will convene again in Kyoto, Japan to set carbon emission targets and deadlines. Who are we trying to fool? Our leaders convene with good intentions, make terrific speeches and go home to business as usual. The ancient proverb states the condition best: "Unless we change the direction we're going, we're likely to end up where we are headed." Maybe we're asking the wrong initial questions! Of course it's natural to try and put out fires when you see them -- but are we attacking the problems from their cause -- or just putting band-aids on one problem after another? I suggest a different approach -- one that was developed 25 years ago by the genius inventor, architect and critical thinker, Dr. R. Buckminster Fuller. "Bucky" was called the Leonardo da Vinci of the 20th century, and posed the following global question: "How do we make the world work for 100% of humanity in the shortest possible time through spontaneous cooperation without ecological damage or the disadvantage to anyone?" Isn't that a better place to begin? Designing the systems to meet the needs of all people, while protecting the environment for the long term is a superior engineering approach. Bucky's World Game uses comprehensive anticipatory design science -- assessing all issues and needs, anticipating future trends and then engineering solutions that make many of today's global issues obsolete. >From this global question emerged a premier strategy for peace and sustainable development. Simply stated, the strategy is to link electrically the renewable energy resources around the world. Or in today's vernacular, a world wide web of electricity, tapping renewable resources. Unknown to most people, half of this energy network is already in place around the world. It is the freeway for electrons that delivers the energy to run our homes and businesses. Yet 1/3 of humanity has no electricity for even the most basic needs; clean water, lighting, refrigeration of food and medicines. Two billion people still burn wood and cow dung to meet daily energy requirements. The global climate problem is rooted in the fact that 80% of energy production comes from some non-renewable energy source; gas, oil, coal or nuclear which produce increasing levels of pollution or toxic waste. Interconnecting electrical systems east to west levels the daily energy power demand, and north-south linkages level seasonal variations. Our planet is blessed with enormous renewable potential from wind, hydro, solar, geothermal, tidal and biomass -- yet these are often located in remote regions, even neighboring countries, far from our cities and industry. With economic power transmission now reaching thousands of kilometers, these renewable energy sources can begin to replace some of the aging fossil and nuclear plants, as well as power the economic development of Southeast Asia. Such a visionary plan may seem fated to future generations. However, the last ten years has seen international connections between the most unlikely neighbors: East and West Germany after the fall of the Berlin Wall, Israel and Jordan from the Washington Declaration treaty, and just this year, cross-border grids are being built between Turkey and Iran, Argentina and Chile, even India and Pakistan. This international infrastructure development fosters trade, cooperation and peace. Two decades ago, the United Nations and numerous experts corroborated this development strategy. At that time, Cold War politics stymied any real progress. Now the enemy has become pollution, overpopulation and poverty. To put out these fires we've held the Earth Summit in Rio, the Population Summit in Cairo, the Social Summit in Copenhagen, the Women's Summit In Beijing and the Cities Summit in Istanbul. Yet the problems persist and grow every year. Attacking these issues as separate problems is ignorant to the nature of our interconnected society. Maybe it's time to ask the bigger question: how do we make it work for all humanity and the environment? The solutions are guaranteed to offer a better cure than the recent global prognosis. http://www.geni.org GLOBAL ENERGY NETWORK INTERNATIONAL Peter Meisen P.O.Box 81565 San Diego, CA 92138 (619) 595-0139 FAX: (619) 595-0403 Visit the GENI World Wide Web Home Page: http://www.geni.org/ Email: Internet: geni@cerf.net Compuserve: 75543.520@compuserve.com GENI is a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation conducting education and research into the interconnection of renewable energy resources around the world. This was proposed as the highest priority objective from the World Game of 20th century visionary, Dr. R Buckminster Fuller.