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Date:         Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:00:05 -0800
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From:         Patrick Salsbury <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info

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 _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________
                 Patrick G. Salsbury <salsbury@sculptors.com>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:38:28 -0800
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: H2O and tetrahedrons
Comments: To: David Rinck <david@tortuga.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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David,

Your Bucky pages are wonderful! See my comments below:

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: David Rinck <david@tortuga.com>
To: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Saturday, November 29, 1997 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: H2O and tetrahedrons


>Hi Joe,
>
>I found the information on the water molecule... Thanks allot.  I found
>a picture of the molecule and drew a picture of it for my page, I
>attached you a copy.  I have my page up at
>http://www.tortuga.com/fuller  It's in Spanish but, but Bucky's ideas
>are just as symbolical as they are verbal... you might still enjoy it.
>
Nice graphics.  Much better than I could ever do.  Now, if we could just get
someone to do some pages in other languages such as Chinese, French, German,
Russian, etc.  Each graphic in the "Selected Ideas" section was intended to
communicate a basic idea nonverbally in order to bypass the language
barriers.

>I also included the graphic for the world spending of money on defense
>from your conclusion section... Does that come from Bucky's speech at
>the Congresional Hearing or is there another source for that... I know
>people are going to write me asking where that figure comes from.
>
Go to the World Game site at http://www.worldgame.org/wwwproject/
They have all the details behind those figures.

>Thanks allot for your site and your help.  I live in Mexico where to the
>best of my knowledge there is only one Buckminster Fuller book
>translated into spanish.  I've been to Mexico City and Guadalajara
>trying to find books of his, but there isn't much.  Your site has helped
>me allot.
>
There's quite a few Buckybooks available online.  For example, see
Amazon.com at http://www.amazon.com
or Barnes & Nobel at http://www.barnesandnobel.com/

 Do a search using "geodesic dome" and/or "Buckminster Fuller".

See also the BiblioFind Used Books service at http://www.bibliofind.com/

By the way, what are the details of the Buckybook in Spanish?

>Thanks Again,
>David Rinck
>
>P.S. I do graphic design for web pages (although if you look at my DNA
>on the web page I made an error!)  If you ever have a diagram that you
>want to illustrate I'll be happy to help.
>
All the graphics at my site are intended to be in the public domain.  You're
welcome to use any of them if you wish.  I'm sure you could improve on most
of them, especially in the "Selected Ideas" section.  As you can see, I know
Bucky, but I'm not much of an artist.

Joe
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:55:57 EST
Reply-To:     dj@universitytext.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments:     Authenticated sender is <somi2aol.com>
From:         U.N.I.V.E.R.S.I.T.Y.T.E.X.T@SMTP.ABAC.COM
Subject:      NO   MORE   BOOKSTORE  !!!!!!!!
Comments: To: Friend@public.com

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please e-mail us at: dj@universitytext.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:00:54 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Cloud Nines
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:

>pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
>
>>No way a cylinder will yield the same surface/volume ratio BTW.
>>A sphere is maximally efficient and there's no getting around
>>this fact.
>>
>>Kirby
>
>This proved to be bogus dogma -- Jonathan Lee showed me the
>dimensions of a cylinder matching the sphere's for surface/volume
>efficiency.  Thanks Jonathan!
>
>Kirby
>

Actually, Jonathan's question has sparked some interesting
reflections on geometry-research, one of the Math Forum
web BBSs, including a contribution from Dr. Hart of
'Pavilion of Polyhedreality' fame.

See: Surface/volume optimization
http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research

Thanks for getting the ball rolling Jonathan.

Kirby
Curriculum writer
4D Solutions

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:27:31 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         LABORATORIO DE FOTOGRAMETRIA <marina@NIVEL.EUITTO.UPM.ES>
Organization: E.U.I.T.TOPOGRAFICA
Subject:      International Geodetic Student Meeting
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

International Geodetic Student Meeting

The 11th IGSM will be held in Spain (Madrid), from 3th March - 4th April,
at the Escuela Universitaria de Ingenierma Ticnica Topografica (Universidad
Politicnica de Madrid).

During these days, around 200 students from all over Europe will get
together to share their knowledge about land surveying. Besides that
conferences, excursions, assamblies and ... parties will take place.

If you are interested in being a member of this young organization, please
contact us:

e-mail:   igsm1998@nivel.euitto.upm.es
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:40:09 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Eric Nastav <enastav@BKSTORE.CSERV.IUPUI.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University - Purdue Univeristy At Indianapols,IN
Subject:      Re: Geodesic vs. concrete shell dome
In-Reply-To:  <347B822D.2D5E@ordata.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Oregon Dome wrote:

> The properties of wind and earthquake resistance are properties of the
> dome shape, not the concrete.  Wood framed will survive the same
> disasters.  You can download our brochure, Disaster Fitness from our
> website (listed below) for more information.
>
  You mean a geodesic dome with a wood frame and concrete pieces will
survive that destructive conditions that a monolithic concrete dome(with
rebars btwn foam and concreete)?  Or is the concrete in a wood frame
geodesic in one piece?  I thought it was in panels or something.

  Eric NAstav
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:57:12 -0500
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From:         nicksanspam@ECE.VILL.EDU
Organization: Villanova University
Subject:      Re: Geodesic vs. concrete shell dome

Eric Nastav  <enastav@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu> wrote:

>  You mean a geodesic dome with a wood frame and concrete pieces will
>survive that destructive conditions that a monolithic concrete dome(with
>rebars btwn foam and concreete)?

Monolithic Domes have rebars inside about 2" of
reinforced concrete inside 3" of urethane foam.

Nick
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:00:05 -0800
Reply-To:     oregon@ordata.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Oregon Dome <oregon@ORDATA.COM>
Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Geodesic vs. concrete shell dome
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What I am saying is that the strength of the dome is the dome, not the
concrete or the wood.  Wood has the best strenth to weight ratio of any
building material, better than concrete.  In this way, it may be
stronger, but this is not where I am heading.

I am heading in the direction that the dome is a dramatic improvement
over a square/rectangle.  I honestly do not know if a geodesic made of
triangle components is going to be stronger than a monolithic dome.  I
suspect that there is a difference, but it is very small, much smaller
than the difference between dome and square/rectangle (I can visualize
the flame-war argument between both sides about a point that is so small
it might as well be moot).  I do know that I am not going to pay to have
an engineer to settle the issue when both domes have survived just about
everything thrown at them.

Eric Nastav wrote:
>
> On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Oregon Dome wrote:
>
> > The properties of wind and earthquake resistance are properties of the
> > dome shape, not the concrete.  Wood framed will survive the same
> > disasters.  You can download our brochure, Disaster Fitness from our
> > website (listed below) for more information.
> >
>   You mean a geodesic dome with a wood frame and concrete pieces will
> survive that destructive conditions that a monolithic concrete dome(with
> rebars btwn foam and concreete)?  Or is the concrete in a wood frame
> geodesic in one piece?  I thought it was in panels or something.
>
>   Eric NAstav

--
Thanks,

Nathan Burke,
Oregon Dome, Inc.

E-mail:  oregon@domes.com
Web:  http://www.domes.com
Address:  3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR  97402
Fax:  (541) 689-9275
Phone:  (800) 572-8943
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:39:38 -0600
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From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: Geodesic vs. concrete shell dome
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

I think it would be a good demonstration/experiment to have wood frame
dome home and a monolithic dome set close together in one of the
hurricane prone parts of the east coast and then see which one fares
better over the years.

Or have you professional dome builders already had this experence ?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:02:29 -0500
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From:         Eric Nastav <enastav@BKSTORE.CSERV.IUPUI.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University - Purdue Univeristy At Indianapols,IN
Subject:      fiberglass
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

  Has anyone used or heard of using fiberglass or similar composite
materials in geodesic or monolithic domes?

  Eric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:35:21 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Search Spaniel <smith@UMES07.AVL.CO.AT>
Organization: Search Spaniel
Subject:      Geodesic-search the web quickly with Search Spaniel

To Geodesic-search the most search engines
in the shortest time, use the internet's newest
search engine - Search Spaniel at:
http://www.searchspaniel.com/
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:57:46 -0800
Reply-To:     oregon@ordata.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Oregon Dome <oregon@ORDATA.COM>
Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Geodesic vs. concrete shell dome
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Wood and concrete domes are built all up and down the Florida coast.
I've never heard of either having any problem weathering hurricanes.
The stories that I do hear are about damage to windows and skylights
from the flying debris of neighboring square/rectangle homes.

Once again, I think that you miss the point when you try to compare the
strength of a wood frame dome and a monolithic concrete dome.  I believe
the wood would be stronger, but it really is a moot point.  They are
both so strong that nothing square can compare (whoa, I've got the
rhythm today).

anthony kalenak wrote:
>
> I think it would be a good demonstration/experiment to have wood frame
> dome home and a monolithic dome set close together in one of the
> hurricane prone parts of the east coast and then see which one fares
> better over the years.
>
> Or have you professional dome builders already had this experence ?

--
Thanks,

Nathan Burke,
Oregon Dome, Inc.

E-mail:  oregon@domes.com
Web:  http://www.domes.com
Address:  3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR  97402
Fax:  (541) 689-9275
Phone:  (800) 572-8943
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:27:25 -0500
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From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Geodesic vs. concrete shell dome
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Anthony,
You wrote:
<<I think it would be a good demonstration/experiment to have wood frame
dome home and a monolithic dome set close together in one of the
hurricane prone parts of the east coast and then see which one fares
better over the years.>>

      A properly designed and constructed wooden panelized dome is factor=
s
greater in strength than conventional wooden construction, and a house
sized conventional monolithic concrete dome is factors stronger than a
house sized wooden dome. =

     One reason for the high strength of the standard concrete monolithic=

dome  home is the comparative large ratio of its' thickness to its
diameter.  =

      Although both can withstand high winds and earthquake effects bette=
r
than standard home construction, a proper concrete dome will withstand
fire, whereas a conventional wooden dome generally will not.  This
difference can be marginalized by using fireproof lightweight concrete
panels or metal roofing and by the use of fire retardent insulation betwe=
en
the interior framing of the wooden structure.  =

Bob
http:/ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/geodesic.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:54:49 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Geodesic vs. concrete shell dome
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Nick Pine wrote:
<<A 50' Monolithic Dome has walls made of 2" reinforced concrete with
3" of foam outside of that (which adds almost no structural strength.)
It seems to me that most wood domes have a larger ratio of thickness
to diameter...>>

        I stand corrected if they are building 50' domes with only 2"
reinforced concrete.  I had read that they used 4" of reinforced concrete=
=2E =

 I haven't done the calculations for a 50' dome, but at first glance, two=

inches of concrete for a 50' dome wouldn't leave much room for error and =
it
would use more steel and labor than appears economical.  Apart from the
strength computations, the steel needs a certain amount of concrete cover=
,
and only using a total of 2" would cause me some concern.  =

  Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:17:01 -0500
Reply-To:     nop@nospam-ipass.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Mitch C. Amiano" <nop@NOSPAM-IPASS.NET>
Organization: IPass.net
Subject:      Re: fiberglass
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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The following were taken from "Inventions: The Patented Works of R. Buckminster
Fuller"

Laminar Dome, US Patent 3,203,144 ("... domes made of paperboard or plastic
laminar parts comprising thin inner and outer facing sheets fastened to, and
spaced by, a core of of strong ... material such as expanded polystyrene")

Plydome, US Pat # 2,905,113 (domes from flat rectangular sheets)

Paperboard Dome, US Pat # 2,881,717 (domes from folded triangular corrugated
stock)

Eric Nastav wrote:

>   Has anyone used or heard of using fiberglass or similar composite
> materials in geodesic or monolithic domes?
>
>   Eric

  - Mitch
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:26:26 +0100
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From:         palir <palir@ST.TEL.HR>
Subject:      Synergetics dictionary
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Can someone, please, tell me something about E.J.Applewhite's book =
'Synergetics dictionary'. I just found out about this book. It was =
published in 1986. by Garland Publishing. Its price at Amazon.com is =
$500! What's inside?

Thanks,
Igor Draskovic

palir@st.tel.hr

P.S. Does anyone know where to find 'Synergetics' in printed form?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:49:22 -0600
Reply-To:     ega@fastlane.net
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From:         Ernie Aiken <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Organization: Worldflower Garden Domes
Subject:      Spherical Geodesic Grids
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The Dymaxion map further developed. I just saw this and thought it would
be of interest.
Ernie
-- Department of Atmospheric Science, Colorado State University, Fort
Collins, Colorado 80521, USA

Spherical geodesic grids offer an attractive solution to many of the
problems associated with fluid-flow simulations in a
spherical geometry. Williamson (1968) and Sadourny et al. (1968)
simultaneously introduced this approach to isotropically
and homogeneously discretize the sphere. Their new grids were inspired
by Buckminster Fuller's geodesic dome, and tile the
sphere with spherical triangles that are nearly equal in area and nearly
equilateral. These grids offer several advantages over the
more common latitude/longitude grids which tend to unnecessarily
concentrate grid points in the zonal direction near the poles.

http://kiwi.atmos.colostate.edu/BUGS/climoPages/ross/rossmodel.html#FIG3
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Dec 1997 03:24:05 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      http://www.dymaxion.ca/

I am not connected with the Buckminster Fuller Institute (holders, to be
best of my knowledge, of the copyright to the term "dymaxion") nor
"Dymaxion Research Limited," whose WWW page appears below.

Dymaxion Research Limited -- Software Development & Computer Sales

                         Dymaxion Research Limited

                   Software Development & Computer Sales

                  About Dymaxion Research Ltd.
                  Medianet: Media and equipment scheduling software
                  Practimax: Medical & dental clinic management software
                  Dymaxion Computer Sales & Service: Your long-term
                         business partner
                  Career Opportunites
                  Dymaxion Press Releases
     _________________________________________________________________

                  Contact Us
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Dec 1997 01:49:46 -0500
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From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/
Comments: To: "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <slrn68hhal.ik0.box2321@user2.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, P. O. Box 2321 wrote:

> I am not connected with the Buckminster Fuller Institute (holders, to be
> best of my knowledge, of the copyright to the term "dymaxion") nor
> "Dymaxion Research Limited," whose WWW page appears below.

FWIW, there's also an art rock band named Dymaxion.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:17:02 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/
Mime-Version: 1.0
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That's http://www.dymaxion.com/ no?

Also, right here in Portland we had a yellow pages Dymaxion Corporation.
Turned out to be one Dale Moore, his wife helping with phone and books,
and later his son playing an apprenticeship position.  Computer stuff:
hardware, Novell network installation, that kind of stuff.  I bought
a few items from him (a modem at least), and steered him to some
consultancies.  Interesting guy with strong opinions.  Admired Fuller
from a distance, obviously liked the name and didn't seem anyone would
be so petty as to challenge his right to it.  Have no idea if he's
still in business -- s'been years of no contact and that's a tough
road to go alone (very competitive, not much security).

Kirby
4D Solutions

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:32:09 -0500
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From:         bmike24u <bmike24u@WEBTV.NET>
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Subject:      Re: Geodesic vs. concrete shell dome
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT

actually, there is a little dome village behind the kmart on a lake in
deland, florida, where all the domes are plywood paneled ... i
understand b fuller had something to do with their construction, tho i
cannot confirm this personally

anyways, while the dome infrastructures (frames) have held up well, many
have developed leaks and have rotted out from the constant atmospheric
changes over the years ...

i believe the concrete shell is better suited to most environments ...
you can read a little about the dome frame kits i manufacture at the
site below... sorry no pix on site yet, but this internet thing is still
new for me, and i'm working on it

ps ... have u seen my website lately?

please visit ...

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/CRASHinCosta
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:21:00 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/

Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>:
>
>That's http://www.dymaxion.com/ no?

No - dot ca as in Canada, not dot com as in commercial.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Dec 1997 22:24:12 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/
Mime-Version: 1.0
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box2321@teleport.com (P. O. Box 2321) wrote:

>Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>:
>>
>>That's http://www.dymaxion.com/ no?
>
>No - dot ca as in Canada, not dot com as in commercial.
>

I didn't get a web page until I changed it to .com,
but note that email addresses all end in .ca, as in
Canada.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:53:31 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/

Thomas L. Billings <itsd1@teleport.com>:
>I also got a refusal to admit the existence of any http://www.dymaxion.ca
>from my Netscape software.  I did get a software company in Canada when I
>tried with http://www.dymaxion.com/ .
>
>Are you sure that  the ending is _.ca _ in this case?

Yes, very sure - very, very sure - have tried it multiple times now
using lynx (but not Netscape).
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Dec 1997 20:37:18 -0700
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From:         "Thomas L. Billings" <itsd1@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: Inst. for Teleoperated Space Development
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/

In article <3489d035.17370636@news.teleport.com>, pdx4d@teleport.com
(Kirby Urner) wrote:

> box2321@teleport.com (P. O. Box 2321) wrote:
>
> >Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>:
> >>
> >>That's http://www.dymaxion.com/ no?
> >
> >No - dot ca as in Canada, not dot com as in commercial.
> >
>
> I didn't get a web page until I changed it to .com,
> but note that email addresses all end in .ca, as in
> Canada.

I also got a refusal to admit the existence of any http://www.dymaxion.ca
from my Netscape software.  I did get a software company in Canada when I
tried with http://www.dymaxion.com/ .

Are you sure that  the ending is _.ca _ in this case?

Regards,

Tom Billings

--
Institute for Teleoperated Space Development
itsd1@teleport.com(Tom Billings)
ITSD's web site is at,  http://www.teleport.com/~itsd1/index.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Dec 1997 22:22:44 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      K-12 math curriculum (was "Roman Math")
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> = Herman Rubin
  = Kirby

You and I probably have a considerable distance between us re
'numbers' and might want to expand that out under some other
topic.  Here's a section from our curriculum for the Oregon
Homeschoolers Network which will probably help to distill our
differences:

===================
Topic Heading:  Symbols and Operations

Abacus and place value, with zero as 'no beads' symbol
   Symbols in the sand when no abacus handy (numerals)
   Place value and bases (123.456 as 1*10^3+2*10^2+...6*10^-3)

Storage and Retrieval (media for storing values)
    Binary system and 'all possible combinations' (permutations)
    ASCII (256 extended code page maps to symbols)
        Keyboards, alphanumeric sets
    Unicode (more positions, more permutations, more symbols)
        Overview of alphabets and ideograms

Operators (algorithms for getting new values from stored ones)
    Unary and binary operators
    Overview of calculator functions (+ - / * root log trig etc.)

Math notations (algorithms on paper, typographies)
    Sub/super scripts, matrix notation, sigma, functions (incl
    polynomials), sets and logic (e.g. AND OR NOT, Venn diagrams)

Computer programming languages (storing, executing algorithms)
    Overview of flow, structure (instructions as storable data)
    Math notations implemented in Logo, BASIC, APL, Java, xBase...
    Databases as storage/retrieval (lookup tables, key fields, SQL)
    Business rules, triggers, stored procedures, data validation
    Evolution in computing (paradigm shifts)

-------------

Guidelines:

Revisit concepts in multiple contexts e.g. permutations in
binary strings (bit, byte, word combinations) links to
probability, which may be revisted under 'sigma notation' with
concepts of average, bell curve.  Calculator functions links to
historical segments on why people have needed (still need)
log and trig functions (introduce slide rule as artifact).
Revisit under 'functions' and in the context of computer
programming languages.

Contemporary data useful when doing SQL demonstrations e.g.
retrieve all rock bands where x was a drummer, all sports teams
where x was a player, or all players with averages > y.
Discuss large database installations and their role in everyday
life (e.g. airlines, health claims, banking, social services).
Bring in guest speakers with workaday knowledge of these
challenges (a talk on 'the year 2000 problem' useful).

Show Arabic, Thai and other alphabets when discussing unicode
and the limitations of the ASCII 256 code page standard.  Have
computer manuals handy for looking up code pages, explain bytes
and permutations again, the concept of mapping symbols to
binary strings for storage and retreival.

Note:  a lot of these symbolic manipulations threads will
dovetail with more visually and geometrically informed
segments. Storing shape info using coordinates, graphing xyz
trajectories (e.g. ballistics), GIS and mapping,
geopositioning... these topics will mesh with the above to
provide added depth and dimension (e.g. see geometry outline
at http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/outline1.html)

===================

> I have deleted this, and I will replay to this by email.  It is better
> than what is being done, but I do not consider it nearly good enough.

Note:  I don't consider the above a complete curriculum (the
hyperlink to geometry as a separate thread indicates as much).
Like you, I think we need to go over symbolic manipulation from
a 'rules of algebra' point of view:  rules of equality,
simplification, solving for a variable, expanding, factoring,
identities... that kind of stuff.  I should probably just go
ahead and insert this in the above outline.

I'm very probably less invested in some of the abstractions you
consider essential curriculum, e.g. I'm less enamoured of the
'real -> rationals, irrationals' convention, preferring a
'symbols -> terminal, algorithmic' taxonomy.

Also, I consider current academic use of the "dimension"
concept somewhat dispensible.  For example, I use the 'quadrays'
apparatus at my website to advance the view that XYZ is a
cultural artifact and not some a priori anchor for the
popular dogma that 'volume is 3D'.  I say 'prefrequency
volume is 4D' and have equally cogent logic to sustain
this lingo.

Kirby

References:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadphil.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/hypercross.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/terms.html#4d


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Dec 1997 01:04:08 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/

P. O. Box 2321 <box2321@teleport.com>:
>Thomas L. Billings <itsd1@teleport.com>:
>>I also got a refusal to admit the existence of any http://www.dymaxion.ca
>>from my Netscape software.  I did get a software company in Canada when I
>>tried with http://www.dymaxion.com/ .
>>
>>Are you sure that  the ending is _.ca _ in this case?
>
>Yes, very sure - very, very sure - have tried it multiple times now
>using lynx (but not Netscape).

And have not trid it with Netscape 3.0 - I know Kirby is using a later
Netscape, so perhaps they "fixed" something that wasn't broken.  The URL
in question is very definitely there as listed in the Subject line - if
you can't get it, your browser is messed up.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:34:51 -0700
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From:         "Thomas L. Billings" <itsd1@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: Inst. for Teleoperated Space Development
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/

In article <slrn68mhs9.fc4.box2321@user2.teleport.com>,
box2321@teleport.com wrote:

> P. O. Box 2321 <box2321@teleport.com>:
> >Thomas L. Billings <itsd1@teleport.com>:
> >>I also got a refusal to admit the existence of any http://www.dymaxion.ca
> >>from my Netscape software.  I did get a software company in Canada when I
> >>tried with http://www.dymaxion.com/ .
> >>
> >>Are you sure that  the ending is _.ca _ in this case?
> >
> >Yes, very sure - very, very sure - have tried it multiple times now
> >using lynx (but not Netscape).
>
> And have not trid it with Netscape 3.0 - I know Kirby is using a later
> Netscape, so perhaps they "fixed" something that wasn't broken.  The URL
> in question is very definitely there as listed in the Subject line - if
> you can't get it, your browser is messed up.

Interestingly enough, without changing anything, I now get a website at
the .ca URL.  It is, however, the same one as the one I found at the .com
URL.  I am using Netscape 3.0.  Odd?

Regards,

Tom Billings

--
Institute for Teleoperated Space Development
itsd1@teleport.com(Tom Billings)
ITSD's web site is at,  http://www.teleport.com/~itsd1/index.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:01:35 -0500
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From:         Ray Strand <strandra@CAA.MRS.UMN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

>
> Thomas L. Billings <itsd1@teleport.com>:
> >I also got a refusal to admit the existence of any http://www.dymaxion.ca

I just used Netscape and received a webpage for http://www.dymaxion.ca
without any problems.

Check your software and...  let's move on.


> >from my Netscape software.  I did get a software company in Canada when I
> >tried with http://www.dymaxion.com/ .
> >
> >Are you sure that  the ending is _.ca _ in this case?
>
> Yes, very sure - very, very sure - have tried it multiple times now
> using lynx (but not Netscape).

--
............................................................................................
                             Ray Strand
                 e-mail   strandra@caa.mrs.umn.edu
............................................................................................

...on the edge  of the prairie abyss ......................
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:12:19 GMT
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From:         Ross Keatinge <rossk@IHUG.CO.NZ>
Subject:      Re: http://www.dymaxion.ca/
In-Reply-To:  <itsd1-0612972037180001@ip-pdx38-27.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The same company has both dymaxion.ca and dymaxion.com

A DNS lookup reveals that both domains point to the same machine.


--
Ross Keatinge                        rossk@ihug.co.nz
Orewa, New Zealand
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:16:05 -0800
Reply-To:     oregon@ordata.com
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From:         Oregon Dome <oregon@ORDATA.COM>
Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Geodesic vs. concrete shell dome
MIME-Version: 1.0
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If they are rotting out, it is due to the leaks, not due to anything
atmospheric.  If they had decent roofs that were well maintained, they
would be just fine.  We, along with quite a few other wood
manufacturers, have built a lot of domes down in Florida (and other
high-humidity areas) over the years and have had no problems when the
home was maintained.  When the homes were not maintained, they developed
the same sorts of problems you would expect to see in any home that was
not taken care of.

bmike24u wrote:
>
> actually, there is a little dome village behind the kmart on a lake in
> deland, florida, where all the domes are plywood paneled ... i
> understand b fuller had something to do with their construction, tho i
> cannot confirm this personally
>
> anyways, while the dome infrastructures (frames) have held up well, many
> have developed leaks and have rotted out from the constant atmospheric
> changes over the years ...
>
> i believe the concrete shell is better suited to most environments ...
> you can read a little about the dome frame kits i manufacture at the
> site below... sorry no pix on site yet, but this internet thing is still
> new for me, and i'm working on it
>
> ps ... have u seen my website lately?
>
> please visit ...
>
> http://www.angelfire.com/biz/CRASHinCosta

--
Thanks,

Nathan Burke,
Oregon Dome, Inc.

E-mail:  oregon@domes.com
Web:  http://www.domes.com
Address:  3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR  97402
Fax:  (541) 689-9275
Phone:  (800) 572-8943
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:44:03 -0800
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: H2O and tetrahedrons
Comments: To: David Rinck <david@tortuga.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David,

Sorry for not responding sooner--been very busy lately.  (See comments
below)

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: David Rinck <david@tortuga.com>
To: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 03, 1997 09:14 PM
Subject: Re: H2O and tetrahedrons


>Hi Joe,
>
>Thanks.  It was fun to put it together.  When I have more time I may try
>to do a design for your Selected Ideas pages.  I was trying to figure
>out where to start or what to say about Bucky's ideas and I ran in your
>Selected Ideas page and I was like, "Yeah! Like That!"
>
>When I have more time I think I'll also change my Nature's Geometry
>section to be more like the design of your site... One graphic, big,
>front and center... a few words beneath.  It's like Bucky said, people
>have been conditioned that everything be in few words, it's like you
>truly have to communicate like that right now to convey an idea so
>people go, "hey, that makes sense!" and keep reading... things have to
>be attractive, but with a message.
>
>I am very interested in the Mites (Minimum allspace filling
>tetrahedrons)  You have a tetrahedron and an octahedron and a smaller
>tetrahedron between them labelled C.G.

A tetrahedron can be cut up into 24 smaller tets or "A" modules.
An octahedron can be cut up into 48 smaller tets (24 "A" modules and 24 "B"
modules).

A Mite is composed of 3 modules: 2 "A" plus a "B".
That is, 1/24th of a tetrahedron (1 "A" module),
plus 1/24th of an octahedron (1 "A" module plus 1 "B" module).

"CG" means Center of Gravity (of the tet and the oct).

>What do you mean by the 32 basic
>properties?  There are four faces and within them you have 8 numbers.
>Are you referring to the properties of tetrahedrons?

I figure there can be 64 different types (views) of quarks.
Every tetrahedron can be either:
    1)  spinning clockwise or counterclockwise              (x 2);
    2)  have its North pole either "up" or "down"             (x 2);
    3)  have a positive or negative charge                         (x 2);
    4)  displaying 4 positive faces or 4 negative faces (4 x 2);

So (4 x 2) x (2 x 2 x 2)  = 64

>Thanks,
>David
>
>
>P.S.  For your virtual University you ought to check out Parachat...
>It's a free chat room that you cut and paste and put on one of your web
>pages... It works off of their server, not yours, so you don't have to
>worry about permissions or Perl.  It's www.parachat.com. I've got one at
>www.tortuga.com/tierra/chat.html
>
>
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:16:18 -0600
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From:         HILL <hillcorp@FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU>
In-Reply-To:  <003501bd0454$b496fd40$dcdae3a5@kelp220.cruzio.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In the appendices of "A Fuller Explanation" by Amy Edmondson, she lists
the conventional ways of finding the volumes of of the tetra, octa and
icosa.

If you insert the tetra into the cube and count the diagnals it creates as
being value "1" instead of radical two you can find the volume of a cube
in relation to the tetra as well.

dividing the volumes of the cube and octa by that of the tetra gives you
the demonstrated whole number values of three and four, as shown by
synergetics.


i find also that if you take the second power of the tetra, cube and octa
you get the rational fractions "1/72", "1/8" and "2/9" respectively.


i find that the icosa doesn't work with this whole number schema at all
and remains an irrational, irrascible decimal. does any one know why?

stephen hill
hillcorp@falcon.cc.ukans.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:25:35 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Housing solution
MIME-Version: 1.0
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All,
        I believe that the housing solution is not to be found in a large=

centralized high tech factory, in which all the housing units will be bui=
lt
and have to be shipped over long distances at a general cost of $1.25/mil=
e
by truck, which can be over $3000 across country, but in decentralized
small manufacturers using a simple module type design that can be expande=
d
to meet all needs.
        I believe my latest design not only meets this criteria, but it
also finds a solution to the other inherent problems of many popular used=

domes such as a flat upper roof, non horizontal natural base, the
mathematical complexity, sound reflection, and lack of roof ventilation.
        The 24 ' diameter "Mountain Truss" kits can be made out of
standardized materials using low cost  standard tools with little waste.
The design is simple and the kits can be sold for $2500 and transported
locally in a full sized pickup.  The overhead required is low and an
experienced  individual manufacturer can make $50.00 per hour fabricating=

the kits. =

        This provides independent employment, and a  good needed product.=
 =

Right now I have converted the first prototype into a training center in
which classes will be given in construction and fabrication techniques.  =
A
class schedule can be found on my WEB site.  Along with knowledge, studen=
ts
will be given initial personalized marketing material if requested.
Bob
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/24diamet.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:13:39 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Brant <trimtab@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Fwd: Design intelligence
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Subject:     Design intelligence
Sent:        12/08  7:30 AM
Received:    12/09  10:00 PM
From:        Silvia Austerlic, silvia@design.fadu.uba.ar
Reply-To:    gkd97@tristram.edc.org

I don't know how many of you have read/heard about PATTERNS,
the ASDC Systems Thinking and Chaos Theory Network Newsletter,
edited by Barbara Vogl. "Education for design competence" is the
issue of September 1997, under the heading "Toward the Integral
Millenium: Integrating Culture, Ecology and Design".

I want to bring here some interesting DESIGN's reflections, that
might help us to face the (both emotional and intellectual) CHALLENGE
of SUSTAINABILITY -- according to statement of Sim Van der Ryn, founder
and chief designer of the Ecological Design Institute and emeritus
professor of architecture at the University of California,
Berkeley -- which is "no less than a redesign and rethinking
of the modern world: what we learn and how we learn it".
There are five Principles of Ecological Design: 1) Solutions
Grow from Place; 2) Ecological Accounting Informs Design;
3) Design with Nature; 4) Make Nature Visible and 5) EVERYONE
IS A DESIGNER: Listen to every voice in the design process.
Everyone is a participant-designer. Honor the special knowledge
that each person brings. As peopkle work together to heal their
places, they also heal themselves.

So, if Ecological Design really applies to both science and
spirit, I hope that this and other Virtual Spaces (which mix
Real people ideas, emotions, hopes and dreams) that are
flourishing in the world wide ciberspace, can be a good FIELD
for this *brilliant idea(l)* to land...in our designers'
"black-boxed" minds! Here there are some highligts From the Editor:

In his book, Designing Social Systems in a Changing World,
Bela H. Banathy portrays a great variety of perspectives of
design held by scholars in such fields as architecture, environmental,
industrial, organizational, and social systems design.
A sampling of definitions reveals that:
* DESIGN is concerned with how things OUGHT TO be. The designer
devises a COURSE OF ACTION aimed at changing EXISTING situations
into PREFERRED ones (Simon, H. 1969 The Science of the Artificial,
MIT Press, Cambridge).
* Design is a way of resolving basic human conflicts, CRITICAL
for securing A SAFE PASSAGE TO A DESIRABLE HUMAN FUTURE. (Weisbord,
M. 1992. Applied Common Sense, in: Discovering Common Ground,
Berrett-Koehler, San Francisco).
* Design is primarily a thought process and communication process,
transferring IDEAS into ACTION by COMMUNICATION. It is a NATURAL
FUCTION, expresses in the many activities we engage in. For the
teleologist, design means the CONSCIOUS ATTEMPT TO CREATE A BETTER
WORLD. For the antiteleologist design is the CONSCIOUS PART OF
ACTION. (Churchman, C.W. 1971 The Design of Inquiring Systems,
Basic Books, New York).
Banathy comments that C.J.Jones, in his book, Design Methods:
Seeds of Human Futures (1980, Wiley Interscience, New York)
says that design is A QUESTION OF LIVING, NOT A PLANNING OF
LIFE NOT YET LIVED. This idea seems nonsense if applied to
designing by professionals, but, seen as part of a HISTORIC SHIFT
FROM PRODUCT THINKING TO PROCESS THINKING, isn't it just this
planning that we have overlooked?
DESIGN IS INTEGRAL TO ALL HUMAN LIFE AND ALL HUMAN ACTIVITY. V.Papanek
(1972, Design for the Real World, bantam Books, New York) says
that "any attempt to separate design, to make it a thing by itself,
works counter to the INHERENT VALUE OF DESIGN AS THE PRIMARY MATRIX
OF LIFE" (p.23).
So, it would seem that developing "DESIGN INTELLIGENCE" is of utmost
importance in our educational curriculum. It is a process we
all engage in as we awake each morning and decide what we will do that
day, FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE. Design intelligence is overlooked
in John Gardner's famous list of "multiple intelligences."
Education for design competence is the focus of september number
of PATTERNS.
Sym van der Ryn defines design as "a continuum of processes,
an endless but moving CHAIN OF DEVELOPMENT, REALIZATION AND
EVALUATION, DIRECTED TOWARD PURPOSEFUL CREATION" (1996, Problem
and Puzzles: Searching for a Science of Design, AIA Journal,
45(1):37-42). According to him, "our daily experience and culture
is shaped in the DESIGNED WORLD of HOMES, SCHOOLS, OFFICES,
TRANSPORTATION, COMMUNICATION - all FORMS of NEW technologies.
The designed world shapes EXPERIENCES, CONSCIOUSNESS AND VALUES.
How sustainable or unsustainable the present designed world
is will, in part, determine the future of our civilization".











Steven G. Brant, President
Trimtab Management Systems
"Charting new routes to the 21st Century"

81 Ocean Parkway, Suite 3H, Brooklyn, NY 11218-1754 USA
(718) 972-0949 (voice)       (718) 972-3465 (fax)
sbrant@trimtab.com           www.trimtab.com
--------------------------------------------------
"It no longer has to be you or me."
                 - R. Buckminster Fuller
--------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:41:01 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      geodome (http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/domes/domes.html)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Littlewood Geodesic Domes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------
New features on this site!=20
A new business and a new product!



=20


Littlewood Geodesic Domes is presently selling spacious low cost =
relocatable shelters. Built from construction grade 2x4s bolted to =
plywood joiner plates, they offer a rigid weathertight shelter that can =
be erected in one or two days.=20



Why a Geodesic Dome?=20

    =20
   =20
    1.. solidity=20
    b.. efficient=20
    c.. open floor space
   =20
    d.. high ceiling
   =20
   =20




1. The dome shaped structure is extremely rigid when anchored to the =
ground, yet weighs less than 1000lb including the cover.=20

2. Only 120 2x4's are required to build the walls and roof of this rigid =
shelter.

3. A geodesic dome roof means no support pillars. Arrange your work area =
as you wish on an open floor almost 40 ft in diameter.=20

4. Unlike a conventional garage package with 8 ft walls and conventional =
trusses, our domes give a 16 ft high vaulted ceiling. Try turning a 4x8 =
sht of plywood about on end or working with a 12 ft ladder in a =
conventional garage.=20
Why a Littlewood Geodesic Dome?=20

    1.. easy to build
   =20
    2.. low cost
   =20
    3.. transportable
   =20
1. We have made it easy to build with color coded pieces that bolt =
together, red to red, green to green etc. A wrench, a power screwdriver =
and a tall ladder are all you should need to build our kit.=20

2. The frame kit is available for $1500 Cdn. and the tailor fit cover =
made of a heavy duty material designed to give many years of use, is =
$1600 with an economy model at only $1295 Cdn..=20

3. Disassembled, it will fit in the back of a 3/4 ton truck.





-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------




New features:=20
"Gemetry Program"is a computer program to help design any class and =
frequency of dome.=20

Check out our "Photo Album"and our"online brochure".=20
Visit domebuiders across North America.=20

Topics to be added:
new products, links to theory. Last Updated:__NOV. 12, 1997



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------

For more information, contact us at:
Littlewood Geodesic Domes
7208 80 Ave., Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6B 0C6

Phone; (403) 463-3004 or 970-3802=20
E-Mail:geodome@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca=20


------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD04E2.C3044980
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>geodome</TITLE><BASE=20
href=3Dhttp://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/domes/domes.html>
<META name=3D"geodesic shelters" value =3D "{{Document description}}">
<META name=3Dkeywords value =3D =
{{geodesic,shelter,building,greenhouse)}}>
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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<H1><U>Littlewood Geodesic Domes</U></H1>
<HR>
<A href=3D"#new features">New features on this site!</A>=20
<H3>A new business and a new product!</H3><BR><BR>
<CENTER><IMG align=3Dcenter src=3D"lendomem.jpg"> <BR></CENTER>
<P></P><LEFT>Littlewood Geodesic Domes is presently selling spacious low =
cost=20
relocatable shelters. Built from construction grade 2x4s bolted to =
plywood=20
joiner plates, they offer a rigid weathertight shelter that can be =
erected in=20
one or two days.=20
<P></P><BR><BR><B>Why a Geodesic Dome? </B><BR>
<OL><IMG align=3Dright src=3D"dominsid.jpg" width=3D356 hieght =3D 229> =
<BR><LEFT>
    <LI><I><U>solidity=20
    <LI>efficient=20
    <LI>open floor space<BR>
    <LI>high ceiling</U></I><BR><BR></LI></OL><BR><BR><BR><BR>1. The =
dome shaped=20
structure is <I>extremely rigid</I> when anchored to the ground, yet =
<I>weighs=20
less than 1000lb</I> including the cover. <BR><BR>2. Only 120 2x4's are =
required=20
to build the walls and roof of this rigid shelter.<BR><BR>3. A geodesic =
dome=20
roof means no support pillars. Arrange your work area as you wish on an =
open=20
floor almost 40 ft in diameter. <BR><BR>4. Unlike a conventional garage =
package=20
with 8 ft walls and conventional trusses, our domes give a 16 ft high =
vaulted=20
<FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>ceiling</FONT>. Try turning =
a 4x8 sht of=20
plywood about on end or working with a 12 ft ladder in a conventional =
garage.=20
<BR><B>Why a Littlewood Geodesic Dome? </B><BR><I>
<OL>
    <LI><U>easy to build</U><BR>
    <LI><U>low cost</U><BR>
    <LI><U>transportable</U></I><BR></LI></OL></B>1. We have made it =
easy to build=20
with color coded pieces that bolt together, red to red, green to green =
etc. A=20
wrench, a power screwdriver and a tall ladder are all you should need to =
build=20
our kit. <BR><BR>2. The frame kit is <FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>available </FONT>for $1500 Cdn. and the tailor fit cover made =
of a heavy=20
duty material designed to give many years of use, is $1600 with an =
economy model=20
at only $1295 Cdn.. <BR><BR>3. Disassembled, it will fit in the back of =
a 3/4=20
ton truck.<BR><BR><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<BR>
<CENTER><IMG src=3D"lenpan.jpg"></CENTER><BR><A name=3D"new =
features"><I>New=20
features:</I></A> <BR><A href=3D"geometry.bas">&quot;Gemetry =
Program&quot;</A>is a=20
computer program to help design any class and frequency of dome. =
<BR><BR>Check=20
out our <A href=3D"dunout.html">&quot;Photo Album&quot;</A>and our<A=20
href=3D"brochure.html">&quot;online brochure&quot;</A>. <BR>Visit <A=20
href=3D"http://www.dnaco.net/~michael/domes/manufacturers.html">domebuide=
rs</A>=20
across North America. <BR><BR><I>Topics to be added:</I><BR>new =
products, links=20
to theory. Last Updated:__NOV. 12, 1997<BR>
<P></P>
<HR>
<FONT face=3Darial size=3D2>
<HR noShade>

<CENTER>
<P>For more information, contact us at:<BR>Littlewood Geodesic =
Domes<BR>7208 80=20
Ave., Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6B 0C6<BR><BR>Phone; (403) 463-3004 or =
970-3802=20
<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:geodome@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca">E-Mail:geodome@freenet.edm=
onton.ab.ca</A>=20
</P></CENTER></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD04E2.C3044980--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:51:12 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Buckminster Fuller Links
Comments: To: Don Ingber <ingber@pop.sneaker.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dr.Ingber,

I became vaguely familiar with your work about 10 years ago. Amy Edmondson,
in her chapter on tensegrities, mentioned you on page 257 of her book _A
Fuller Explanation_ (1987).

I will be adding you in both the "People" and "Organizations" sections of my
"Links".  I hope to have the revisions and updates to my web pages finished
by 1-1-98.

I'm posting a copy of this email reply with your original message attached
to the Geodesic List (newsletter; 200 subscribers?) which is gatewayed to
the Bucky newsgroup bit.listserv.geodesic which has about 8,000? readers.

Thank you for writing me.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Ingber <ingber@pop.sneaker.net>
To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Friday, December 12, 1997 02:42 PM
Subject: Buckminster Fuller Links


>Dear Joe,
>
> I found the Buckminster Fuller Links Website and enjoyed it very much.  I
>write first to ask how I can be added to your list and how a company I
>recently founded (Molecular Geodesics Inc.) can be added as well.  You can
>check out my company at www.molec-geodesics.com  (its relevance as a Bucky
>link speaks for itself).
>
>In terms of the relevance of my work, I invite you and your group to check
>out the newest issue of SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN (january 1998) or their current
>WebSite (www.sciam.com).  I have the cover article called "The Architecture
>of Life" which describes tensegrity as a fundamental building rule which
>guides biological organization from carbon compounds to living cells and
>organisms.
>
>You also can view my Webpage (just up; still embryonic)
>www.childrenshospital.org/research/ingber (there is a link up from the
>Sciam website to both this and the company website).
>
>I think you will enjoy the article. If there is a way to communicate this
>to the other Bucky Links, please do so.
>
>Yours sincerely,
>
>
>Don Ingber,MD,PhD
>Associate Professor of Pathology, Harvard Medical School and Children's
>Hospital, Boston MA
>
>Chief Scientific Advisor,
>Molecular Geodesics Inc.
>
>my academic email is:  ingber@a1.tch.harvard.edu
>
>my business email is: ingber@molec-geodesics.edu
>
>
>
>
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 15 Dec 1997 00:00:05 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Patrick Salsbury <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        This is the semi-monthly "How To" file about the GEODESIC list.  It has
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        If you are tired of receiving this message twice per month, and are
reading bit.listserv.geodesic through USENET news, then you can enter this
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learning how to do, if you don't know already.
        And isn't it about time to learn something new? Isn't it always? :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        GEODESIC is a forum for the discussion of the ideas and creations
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Pat
 _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________
                 Patrick G. Salsbury <salsbury@sculptors.com>
                     http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/
                           -----------------------
                      Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:58:00 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: What is ethical math
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I thought some of the ethical math agenda was on
target, regardless of whether or not I agreed
with David Kaufman on specifics -- lots of times
I didn't.

The point is to show how mathematics is used to
bring policies and programs from the drawing
boards into real world implementation phase.
And if you think the policies are misguided and
should be stopped, you'd do well to show why on
mathematical grounds.  Either way, pro or con,
your ability to marshall your arguments in ways
that draw on mathematical reasoning is central.

I think partly why people get so emotional around
ethical issues is precisely because their math
skills are weak and they don't have cogent arguments
for their views, and so substitute a lot of bluster
and harsh language.

Were our citizenry better versed in "matters
mathematical" (Gilbert & Sullivan song) we'd likely
be enjoying a higher standard of living by now --
like my syllabus shows that we could have already
created a relative utopia by this time, but
because of a weak-minded curriculum, we're still
slogging through the mud.  Oh well.

Kirby
Curriculum writer
4D Solutions

----
Forwarded to moderator for reposting to
k12.ed.math 14 Dec 97
----

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------


----------------------------
message approved for posting by k12.ed.math moderator:Sheila King
k12.ed.math is a moderated newsgroup.
charter for the newsgroup at www.wenet.net/~cking/sheila/charter.html
submissions: post to k12.ed.math or e-mail to k12math@sd28.bc.ca
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 15:44:49 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Curt McNamara <curtm@DGII.COM>
Subject:      Re: Finding Synergetics in print
Comments: cc: palir@st.tel.hr
In-Reply-To:  <199712060517.XAA04273@gw2.dgii.com> from "Automatic digest
              processor" at Dec 6, 97 00:07:36 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Igor Draskovic asks ....
> P.S. Does anyone know where to find 'Synergetics' in printed form?
>
        I would guess from the address that you are not in North America,
so this first lead may not help :  The Bookhouse in Minneapolis,
Minnesota (612) 331-1430 has a copy of the first volume, plus copies
of _Ideas and Integrities_ and _Nine Chains to the Moon_.  When buying
a copy of the first volume you might note that there are three printings,
with the figures being corrected in the third one.
        This may help a little more : the Buckminster Fuller Institute,
2040 Alameda Padre Serra, #244  Santa Barbara CA  93103
1-800-967-6722 or bfi@aol.com
        They have reprinted almost all of Bucky's stuff (including
Synergetics 1 & 2) and Amy Edmonsons book using photocopied spiral bound
editions.
        In addition, the 42 hour course that Bucky did in the late
'70s (Everything I Know) has just been released by them on video,
including a complete transcript in print and on disk.  Having bought
the audio version of the tapes I have asked about availablility of
the transcript seperate from the tapes, and it seems likely that they
will do so.

                        Curt
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:26:53 -0500
Reply-To:     m._.m.o.y@hotmail.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         remove the dots <m._.m.o.y@HOTMAIL.COM>
Organization: None
Subject:      Re: K-12 math curriculum (was "Roman Math")
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Kirby Urner wrote:
>
> > = Herman Rubin
>   = Kirby
>
> You and I probably have a considerable distance between us re
> 'numbers' and might want to expand that out under some other
> topic.  Here's a section from our curriculum for the Oregon
> Homeschoolers Network which will probably help to distill our
> differences:

Do you have a pointer to your curriculum? I'd like to take
a look at it.

michael
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:27:46 -0800
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Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Looking for knowledge
Comments: To: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
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Lamont,

The Buckminster Fuller Institute sells all of Bucky's books.  Check out
their web site at http://www.critpath.org/bfi/ .  Ask them for a copy of
their latest catalog and newsletter.

Also,check out the BiblioFind used book service at
http://www.bibliofind.com/ .

I'm sending a copy of this reply to the Buckminster Fuller Estate in
Sebastopol, California.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
To: joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com <joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 12:49 PM
Subject: Looking for knowledge


>     Hello, I am looking for any published or
>unpublished literature that has been written by
>Buckminisiter Fuller, whether scientific documents
>and records, or books, or letters and diaries and
>journals. If you could locate the email addresses or
>fax numbers or phone numbers of anyone in authority
>over his estate, and his friends and family, I would
>be most gratified.
>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Dec 1997 09:07:22 -0600
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From:         Robert White <rswhite@WEBTV.NET>
Organization: WebTV Subscriber
Subject:      "Architecture of Life" - Scientific American - Jan. 1997
Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)
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The current (Jan 1997) issue of Scientific American has an interesting
article about Geodesics and Tensegrity as found in the "Architecture of
Life".  Interesting Reading.

Robert S. White
email: rswhite@webtv.ne
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 17 Dec 1997 21:21:18 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: K-12 math curriculum (was "Roman Math")
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Re: Calculus and Computing

When introducing the calculus, it's unnecessary to start off
with a lot of talk about infinity and 1/infinity, i.e. limits.
The basic concepts of differentiating and integrating a
function do not depend on this stuff.

Rather, start with the concept of two variables which covary
according to some rule e.g. a function.  Define a data table
with x and y values.  Run from a start to a stop value for x,
incrementing by an interval, and filing x and y in the table.

Suppose the rule is y = x^2 (x to the 2nd power).  After
running x through its course, from minimum to maximum values,
your table will look like this:

             XVAL            YVAL
         0.000000        0.000000
         1.000000        1.000000
         2.000000        4.000000
         3.000000        9.000000
         4.000000       16.000000
         5.000000       25.000000
         6.000000       36.000000
         7.000000       49.000000
         8.000000       64.000000
         9.000000       81.000000
        10.000000      100.000000

Although this can be done manually, here's an excellent
opportunity to phase in some object-oriented xBase.  For
example:

procedure runcourse
local m.xval, m.yval
select output                            && open the data table
set safety off                           && don't warn user
zap                                      && delete its contents!
set safety on                            && allow warnings
m.xval = this.minimum                    && initialize xval at minimum
do while m.xval <= this.maximum          && keep going until max
        m.yval  = this.getvalue(m.xval)  && evaluate y using rule
        append blank                     && add a blank row to table
        gather memvar fields yval, xval  && populate with values
        m.xval  = m.xval + this.interval && increment x by interval
enddo                                    && loop around
return
endproc

Next you want to demonstrate differention.  Simply run down the
table to fill out columns indicating the difference between x
values in successive rows, and the difference in y values
(xdiff, ydiff).  Finally, file the ratio between the two as
dydx (meaning dy/dx -- slash character not acceptable in column
names).

   XDIFF       XVAL        YVAL       YDIFF        DYDX
0.000000   0.000000    0.000000    0.000000    0.000000
1.000000   1.000000    1.000000    1.000000    1.000000
1.000000   2.000000    4.000000    3.000000    3.000000
1.000000   3.000000    9.000000    5.000000    5.000000
1.000000   4.000000   16.000000    7.000000    7.000000
1.000000   5.000000   25.000000    9.000000    9.000000
1.000000   6.000000   36.000000   11.000000   11.000000
1.000000   7.000000   49.000000   13.000000   13.000000
1.000000   8.000000   64.000000   15.000000   15.000000
1.000000   9.000000   81.000000   17.000000   17.000000
1.000000  10.000000  100.000000   19.000000   19.000000

The code used to generate these 3 columns is straightforward:

procedure differentiate
local m.dydx, m.xdiff, m.ydiff
* NOTE: xval, yval already evaluated as per rule
select output             && open the output table
go top                    && go to first record
do while not eof()        && keep going until last record
        oldx  = xval      && get x and y values
        oldy  = yval
        skip              && skip to the next row
        newx  = xval      && get new x,y values
        newy  = yval
        m.xdiff = newx - oldx && calculate the difference in x
        m.ydiff = newy - oldy && calculate the difference in y
        m.dydx  = m.ydiff/m.xdiff       && calculate the ratio
        if not eof()
                gather memvar fields xdiff, ydiff, dydx && store results
        endif
enddo
endproc

When we integrate, we're doing a running total on products of
the dy/dx ratios times the xdiff.  The y changes per x changes
are being accumulated per each x interval measured, getting us
back to the original yval column we started with.  In xBase:

procedure integrate
local variable, Rsumm
m.Rsumm=0
select output
go top
m.Rsumm = yval
scan while not eof()
    m.Rsumm = m.Rsumm + dydx * xdiff
    gather memvar fields Rsumm
endscan
endproc

Here are some columns.  Compare yval with Rsumm:

    XDIFF            YVAL            DYDX           RSUMM
 0.000000        0.000000        0.000000        0.000000
 1.000000        1.000000        1.000000        1.000000
 1.000000        4.000000        3.000000        4.000000
 1.000000        9.000000        5.000000        9.000000
 1.000000       16.000000        7.000000       16.000000
 1.000000       25.000000        9.000000       25.000000
 1.000000       36.000000       11.000000       36.000000
 1.000000       49.000000       13.000000       49.000000
 1.000000       64.000000       15.000000       64.000000
 1.000000       81.000000       17.000000       81.000000
 1.000000      100.000000       19.000000      100.000000

With tables like this to work with, students will have an
easier time gaining insights into the fundamental theorem of
the calculus, which basically summarizes what we have just
shown: that the derivative column integrates back to the
original function and therefore differentiation and integration
are inverse operations.

xBase has the advantage of allowing functions to be provided as
character strings for on-the-fly evaluation in the code.  For
example:

oCourse = CREATEOBJECT("course")  && oCourse is an object (defined below)
oCourse.rule='x^2 + 3*x + 4'      && this is its rule, passed as a string
oCourse.runcourse()               && complete xval and yval colums
oCourse.differentiate()           && complete xdiff, ydiff, dydx
oCourse.integrate()               && complete Rsumm
return

define class course as custom
minimum  = 0    && class property (default start value)
maximum  = 10   && user may overwrite
interval = 1    && standard increment
rule     = ""   && expects user to provide rule

procedure init
   if not used("output")
      select select(1) && select next unused workarea
      use output       && open output table
   else
        select output  && if output already open, select it
   endif
endproc

procedure differentiate
   [code provided above]
endpro

procedure integrate
   [code provided above]
endproc

function getvalue(x)
   y = EVAL(this.rule)  && return y based on whatever rule
   return y
endfunc

enddefine

The philosophy here is that what used to be the most tedious
aspect of the calculus, number crunching, is now the easiest.
Getting tables of real numbers to play with is painless and
fast, once some code has been defined.  A student only needs to
change the rule and rerun the above to get another table, of
'cos(x)' for example.  Handing off columns of numbers to
graphing programs then becomes a simple job, once the process
for exporting data (if this is required) is mastered -- a
useful ability required in most computer-equipped cubicles in
any case, something we *want* to teach.

Differentiation and integration both have meaning as procedures
without the theoretical requirement that the interval is
vanishingly close to zero. In discrete mathematics, 1/infinity
has no practical meaning, since computer registers are of
definite width and therefore have a smallest floating point
quantum, what we might identify as the 'frequency' of the
computer -- similar to the density of the grid pattern on
graphing paper (there's only so much accuracy you can bring to
a real world situation).

This fact, that 1/infinity is not theoretically required for
differentiation and integration to make sense in a computerized
context, should not be bleeped over in a rush to jump into all
the formalisms and the algebra of limits.  Students with a
strong grasp of the concepts based on explorations similar to
the above will be less likely lose their compass when required
to read the more formalized text book presentations popular
with teachers in the pre-computer era.

In sum, instead of a sense of head-bowed awe and mystery in the
face of the fundamental theorem of the calculus, what we're
aiming for in our students is something closer to an experience
of 'duh'.

Kirby
Curriculum writer
Oregon Homeschoolers Network


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:12:44 +0100
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      Re: What is ethical math
In-Reply-To:  <01bd09a0$f6148840$LocalHost@default>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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 it is not only numbers and doing math is necssery to be ethicaly
 responsible, but
also to know precise carefuly chosen critical numbers.

not all numbers are important, for example if i say that the sun mass  is 10
to 33 grams, that is not important at all. it might be in some instances.

but if i said that an avarage man needs 6 pounds of food, and 20 pounds
of wate-liqud, that is very critical.

if we say that the millitary spends 700 billion dollar a year
world wide that is critical in relation to  survival- it means
that all that money is wasted for padges.
and if i add that the Millitary in the U.S envolves 3-4 million
people- which means all these people depend on the money generated
by that great sector, that is also informative.

and if i say that the U.S importas 4-6 million barrel of oil
a day, that would show why the U.S is deeply envoleved in the
politics of other countrty. i would include the whole tonnage
every 10 years since 1856, and tonnage since america started
importing which i think 1960- if i am correct- doing this
every 10 years.( the big players are important to synergetic
thinking) and not only that but also 30% sector consumtion
sort of sendrom-transportation take 30%, industry 30%, i forgot
the 3the. the numbers if you had a good question should form
chemical ring, and the ring becomes more beautiful if the
reasoning and explanation inside it becomes more complete.

anway, i think that the tools are not there to implment such
an education. economics give too many numbers, i just think
there is mess in deriving genral education from specialized
books.

i think if i have to start all over, i would know were to look.
i didnt even know that i needed such only these particular numbers
and not every what seems to be important.
also the numbers must have meaning, a combinatory factor or
intutive reasoning behind it- i have in mind fuller energy
calculation.\

what these numbers need is the connection to other patren
so that there present in the text becomes meaninful and
not disected as if they exist by themselves.

in this vain, i think the question of numbers must take
a wide sweep, i mean if one ask themselves a question,
 for example GNP
evolution in
relation to second war spending and banks holding, and other telling
stories. big numbers need big senario explanation, and
small very critical- such as how much a gallon cost.

much to be learned in this direction, if we could just map
it out well, i think we would take a big step in the
direction of comprehensive thinking.

i was thinking of creating statistic intrnet page with this view in
mind, but i was not careful in taking the refrence
of where i took these numbers, i still if i feel ok in the
next 2 years might do some work on that.

 tagdi

 now days there is even american almanica,
 i been makeing a subject revision of encyclopidia britanic
to kind of parallel some what Fuller index.
i take any subject that might have bearing on fuller
senarios, i have doen that with 3 volumes.
i dont mean then  parrelle them with fuller Index,
just that what is included there with no other order-
basic listing- and i end up by throwing a most
of the listing- if anyone intrested i might send the
first list- i also ask myself if encyclopidias are important
at all.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:35:21 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      xyz, and rational numbers
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971218123517.28834C-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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in order to understand that the xyz is anrtifact, we have to know
the history this system evolution. i have not doen any reading in
that direction, but i think it is quite mixed up system and
it progress seems also to be very unclear.

--

  for a while i didnt know what is rational and not, but i find
this some where: all these, 1/2. 1/3,1/4, 1/5, are rational becuase
they add to 1, while 1/112, 1/32 is not rational.

can someone clarify this better...

  tagdi
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:38:11 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      books
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971218123517.28834C-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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for an introduction to finance and banks,

The money lenders by the same author of the seven sisters
 and

 Morgan

  are good books for starter, i have not red neither.

Morgan in particular is dense and full of eyebrow staff, very
well written book.


    tagdi
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:44:50 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      may be the subconsous trying to talk
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971218123517.28834C-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
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this a joke, this is should
not be written yet, this
needs knowldge to be written,
sorry folks of the future,
---
exhotic reality like

the black south californian

beatles under

the magnificant glasses,

this was a dream

a specialist next to a

lab had epistimic flags,

in the xyz caradories of

silence these folks stared

 at each

other when passing with

apprehension, as alians taken

to be in the U.S

this was a country stretched linearly,

dechotomy of yes no

left right brain,

neck to neck systematic

repulsion of dictim

layers of institution to

the letter, binges on suside

paranoia, ignorance and

disconnection.....


the threads were lost

near the frontal lob,

just like Adison bulb was

first system theory on the

ground- a sort of

electric punch cards,

the specialization vacume

was replaced by circute

feedback 1945,

the loads with significant

varibles must maximly

as a sonnate through minmums

connect presently as forms

love forms love forms love

forms.....


  tagdi

 variables incorrect in the
poem, sonnat- i dont know anythin
about its composition
decotomy-
epistemic
beatls south california, this injunction
for i know other beatles from north africa,
 i saw few on the entymology lab in Mosko
Idanho, my ancle studied there as a phd-
this should not indicate that i know anything
about insects, i seem to be intriguing the
reader to Nabokovian trills of pretention.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:04:39 -0800
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw:
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Forwarding enclosed post to the Geodesic List.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 05:24 PM


>     Dr Fuller claimed in his book Utopia or Oblivion
>that he - like the supergenius William James Sidis -
>not only took an interest in University level
>concepts and fields at an early age while making
>notable contributions in many fields, but that he
>also belived that many others had the potential to
>attain his degree of intelligence and achievement. I
>would like to test any theories and remedies he has
>for upgrading my mind to at least his level. Can you
>direct me to anything or anybody that can aid me ?
>
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>.-
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:01:58 -0500
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From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Fw:
In-Reply-To:  <004701bd0c22$78fe6040$dcdae3a5@kelp220.cruzio.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Joe S. Moore wrote:

> From: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
>
> >     Dr Fuller claimed in his book Utopia or Oblivion
> >that he - like the supergenius William James Sidis -
> >not only took an interest in University level
> >concepts and fields at an early age while making
> >notable contributions in many fields, but that he
> >also belived that many others had the potential to
> >attain his degree of intelligence and achievement. I
> >would like to test any theories and remedies he has
> >for upgrading my mind to at least his level. Can you
> >direct me to anything or anybody that can aid me ?

It's a simple remedy, but you have to really stick with it:




                    DARE TO BE NAIVE.




Try it, it works.


Michael Stutz  .  http://dsl.org/m/  .  copyright disclaimer etc
stutz@dsl.org  :  finger for pgp     :  http://dsl.org/copyleft/
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 18 Dec 1997 22:14:41 -0800
Reply-To:     zigi41@polaristel.net
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From:         Strom <zigi41@POLARISTEL.NET>
Subject:      domehome list?
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I know this list has a few crossreaders with DomeH.  I had a crash a
while back and when I got back up and running, I couldn't locate the
site agian.  Last contact was  a searh for a new moderator.  Anyone know
the scoop?

Mark Strom
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 1997 04:09:16 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      Re: Looking for knowledge

Joe S. Moore <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>:
>Also,check out the BiblioFind used book service at
>http://www.bibliofind.com/ .

In my other life, I am a used and rare book dealer specializing in
children's books.  I never recommend bibliofind, but I do recommend
The Advance Book Exchange [1] and Interloc [2] and good sources for
finding Bucky books (or anything else, for that matter).

[1] http://www.abebooks.com/
[2] http://www.interloc.com/

- Trevor Blake

--
J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:06:58 -0500
Reply-To:     garym@sympatico.ca
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@MAYA.DYN.ML.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Genius
Comments: To: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
In-Reply-To:  <TCPSMTP.17.12.18.-10.18.56.2781597121.1659264@bbs.sos.on.ca>
              (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu)
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Lamont,

Regarding your recent inquiry, I believe your approach to the problem
may be amiss: As with most Artificial Intelligence researchers, I have
come to notice that even the least of us embodies a phenomenal and
immesurable intelligence.  The problem is in how it is directed.

The other members of the Geodesics list may correct me on this ...

R.B.Fuller gives an excellent and detailed description of his process
in the foreward to "Inventions" where he descibes his Guineapig-B
experiment to discover what one pennyless, average human could do.
His hypothesis began with two reasonable assumptions:

    1) We do not own our intelligence or knowledge.
    2) the maximum performance accrues from being of maximum benefit
       to the maximum number of people at the minimum cost.

>From this foundation, (1) dictates demoting ego and self-gain, thereby
clearing the way to help others without thought of personal profit
while (2) still gives rise to defining "benefit".  Bucky reasoned (his
"lillies of the field" hypothesis) that, if he was doing the "right
thing" the Universe would sustain him, but if he was going in the
wrong direction, the Universe would not waste energy on him.

Everything else in his career follows from these three points: His
quest to be optimally useful without profit (Bucky never showed a
profit) to his own ego gave him a clear purpose for every action, a
means to choose how to spend his limited human energy in every moment
of every day (Bucky slept very little, using the same methods as do
Buddhist monks); his "prime directive" also gave him the focus to be
vigilant for whatever needed doing, however small.  By solving any
problems, he discovered the surface-bubble of knowledge would open up
exponentially (plus two) more sky immediately above, and by the
practice of vigilant problem solving, his experience, and the scope of
his also grew.

  (this echos Polya's comment to his mathematics students "If you cannot
  solve _this_ problem, what problem can you solve?  Did you learn
  anything useful toward the original problem?")

Synergetics, really an exercise in simplicity, likely became a
neccessity to cope with seemingly endlessly multiplying problem
domains.  Similarly, the Geodesic dome is a simplification of
structure to geodetic lines --- in neuroscience, we now suspect
simplification to general principles is not the product of logic and
intelligence, but is the natural response of the mind to complex data,
ie, general principles associated with those "strokes of genius" are
granted free-of-charge by our biology, endowed by the architect of our
brains, for free use (for whatever purpose) by the phantom-captain
inhabitant who's part is only to lead the ship to more questions.

Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@visitweb.com> --- http://visitweb.com/~garym/
TeleDynamics http://visitweb.com/teledynamics/ RR#1 Sauble Beach, Ont CAN
telecenter design  --  telework systems  --  intranet/extranet consulting
"You don't play what you know; you play what you hear." ----- Miles Davis
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 20 Dec 1997 19:41:37 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: K-12 math curriculum (was "Roman Math")
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remove the dots <m._.m.o.y@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Kirby Urner wrote:
>>
>> > = Herman Rubin
>>   = Kirby
>>
>> You and I probably have a considerable distance between us re
>> 'numbers' and might want to expand that out under some other
>> topic.  Here's a section from our curriculum for the Oregon
>> Homeschoolers Network which will probably help to distill our
>> differences:
>
>Do you have a pointer to your curriculum? I'd like to take
>a look at it.
>
>michael

Now I do:
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/

Still under development, but coming along, with a little
help from my friends.

Kirby
4D Solutions

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Dec 1997 00:49:26 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      Re: 50 years ago Today!

Robert Billing <unclebob@tnglwood.demon.co.uk>:
>In article <hnsngr-ya023180001912970636000001@news.sirius.com>
>           hnsngr@sirius.com "Ron Hunsinger" writes:
>
>> The scandal, of course, is that they don't keep the various kinds of
>> electricity segregated. By now, there is no longer any point in asking
>
> Hasn't segregation been illegal since the 60's?

I lived the first few years of my life in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, "the
atomic city."  It was (to the best of my knowledge) developed to be
segregated, with the mostly white engineers in one part of town and the
mostly Black workers in another.  So the link between 'energy' and
'racism' isn't entirely imaginary.

My friend Kirby Urner [1] has also made me aware of a link between
'mathematics' and 'racism' in regards to how Buckminster Fuller's work
has been kept out / left out of academia.  Fuller's synergetic
mathematics appears sound, but his other ideas - particularly that
'race' is a unscientific - are too radical for existing studies.  Rather
than confront such ideas, the educational powers that be keep his work
out in its entirity.  I'm paraphrasing Kirby here, not quoting, but
somewhere on his WWW page there is more on this very subject.  I'm sure
he'll follow this up with an URL...

[1] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/             pdx4d@teleport.com

--
_________________________________________
|    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    http://www.teleport.com/
| (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |             ~box2321/go.htm
| Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |        box2321@teleport.com
-----------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:59:59 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      Carlos Castenada
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971218123517.28834C-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
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Carlos Castenada uses Tensegrity Name to spread his teaching,

i thought that is strange, both words of magic and Fuller
are joined.

    someone told recently that Carlos Castenada has been
thrown out from the masters Ring- that is his teacher
dan Juan have thrown him out, becuase he wants power
instead of following the path of the heart.

i have been told this by a woman, is there ann truth to
this.

 tagdi
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:22:18 -0500
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From:         Jason <kbrill@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject:      Re: Carlos Castenada
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 03:59 PM 12/21/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Carlos Castenada uses Tensegrity Name to spread his teaching,
>
>i thought that is strange, both words of magic and Fuller
>are joined.
>
>    someone told recently that Carlos Castenada has been
>thrown out from the masters Ring- that is his teacher
>dan Juan have thrown him out, becuase he wants power
>instead of following the path of the heart.
>
>i have been told this by a woman, is there ann truth to
>this.
>
> tagdi
>

Tom,

I'm an avid reader of Castaneda and I have also read the books by the woman
who is making this claim.  The entire story henceforth is shrouded in
mystery.  It is quite conceivable, however, given the way Castaneda was
incredibly sloppy during his training.

For a lot of reasons I beleive the woman (her name is Merilyn Tunneshende)
and can't say for certainty why.  I do know that Tensegrity works, but only
in our ordinary world.  Castaneda's original training in Sorcery under Don
Juan took him into the Second attention.

I could go on for hours about this and never come up with an answer to your
question.  Castaneda still says no, but apparently can't come up with Don
Juan.  Tunneshende says absolutley and she was trained to take his place in
that circle.  But no one can find the real answer.

Jason
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:07:38 -0600
Reply-To:     ega@fastlane.net
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From:         Ernie Aiken <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Organization: Worldflower Garden Domes
Subject:      Re: Carlos Castenada
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Jason wrote:
>
> At 03:59 PM 12/21/97 +0100, you wrote:
> >Carlos Castenada uses Tensegrity Name to spread his teaching,
> >
> >i thought that is strange, both words of magic and Fuller
> >are joined.
> >
> >    someone told recently that Carlos Castenada has been
> >thrown out from the masters Ring- that is his teacher
> >dan Juan have thrown him out, becuase he wants power
> >instead of following the path of the heart.
> >
> >i have been told this by a woman, is there ann truth to
> >this.
> >
> > tagdi
> >
>
> Tom,
>
> I'm an avid reader of Castaneda and I have also read the books by the woman
> who is making this claim.  The entire story henceforth is shrouded in
> mystery.  It is quite conceivable, however, given the way Castaneda was
> incredibly sloppy during his training.
>
> For a lot of reasons I beleive the woman (her name is Merilyn Tunneshende)
> and can't say for certainty why.  I do know that Tensegrity works, but only
> in our ordinary world.  Castaneda's original training in Sorcery under Don
> Juan took him into the Second attention.
>
> I could go on for hours about this and never come up with an answer to your
> question.  Castaneda still says no, but apparently can't come up with Don
> Juan.  Tunneshende says absolutley and she was trained to take his place in
> that circle.  But no one can find the real answer.
>
> Jason
Sounds like would make a good episode for the X Files
--

Worldflower Garden Domes
"Geodesics  for your Landscape"
->->http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/welcome.shtml
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Dec 1997 20:11:27 GMT
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From:         GBenson615 <gbenson615@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      Books and Books

Anybody have for sale or know where I can get the following;

1. Dome Builder's Handbook, author John Prenis, Publisher Info: Running Press,
Philadelphia, Pa. c1973

2. Dome Builder's Handbook #2, author William Yarnall, Publisher Info: Running
Press Philadelphia, Pa. c1973

3. Domebook One, author Lloyd Kahn, Publisher Info: Los Gatos, Calif., Pacific
Domes, 1970

4. Domebook Two, authorLloyd Kahn, Publisher Info: Los Gatos, Calif., Pacific
Domes, 1971

5. How to Design and Build Your Dome Home, author Gene Hopster, Publisher Info:
Tucson, AZ : H. P. Books, c1981.

6. Refried Domes, publisher Bolinas, Calif. : Shelter Publications, c1989

7. The Dome Scrap Book, Corporate Author: Geodesic Services, Inc., Publisher
Info: Dubuque Iowa : Kendall/Hunt Pub. Co., c1981

8. Geodesic Math and How to Use It, author Hugh Kenner, Publisher Info:
Berkeley : University of California Press, c1976.

9. Dome Cookbook of Geodesic Geometry, author David Kruschke, c1972

Gary Benson
gbenson615@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:30:44 -0500
Reply-To:     ANTONERG@worldnet.att.net
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From:         John Dunaj <AntonErg@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Organization: Erg inc.
Subject:      Re: Books & Books
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Try Amazon Books.

        http://WWW.Amazon.Com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:43:05 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Mitch C. Amiano" <nop@NOSPAM-IPASS.NET>
Organization: IPass.net
Subject:      Re: Genius
Mime-Version: 1.0
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There was a recent write-up (can't remember the reference; a newspaper or
perhaps Science Weekly) about a study done which suggested that greater
likelyhood of inferring correct positive relationships is associated with
lesser
amounts of short term "working" memory. The theory is that having a smaller
window to work with, the brain jumps to positive conclusions easier, and gets
it
right often enough to make up for the incorrect inferrences (and the lessened
ability to make negative correlations). Those who tend to "see the large
picture" all at once may not see the relationships between the trees for the
forest.

>From Bucky's writings, it is evident that he reviewed concepts, ideas, facts,
and such over and over again, going "back over basics" repetetively. I don't
know that this says anything about his working memory capacity, just that his
writings were authored as if he had to keep refreshing it.

It also helps to surround yourself with intelligent people. Bucky wrote in
Guinea Pig-B, that he thought the most important thing about himself was that
he
was an average human being. I haven't seen anything to contradict this view.

Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:

> Synergetics, really an exercise in simplicity, likely became a
> neccessity to cope with seemingly endlessly multiplying problem
> domains.  Similarly, the Geodesic dome is a simplification of
> structure to geodetic lines --- in neuroscience, we now suspect
> simplification to general principles is not the product of logic and
> intelligence, but is the natural response of the mind to complex data,
> ie, general principles associated with those "strokes of genius" are
> granted free-of-charge by our biology, endowed by the architect of our
> brains, for free use (for whatever purpose) by the phantom-captain
> inhabitant who's part is only to lead the ship to more questions.
>
> Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@visitweb.com> --- http://visitweb.com/~garym/
> TeleDynamics http://visitweb.com/teledynamics/ RR#1 Sauble Beach, Ont CAN
> telecenter design  --  telework systems  --  intranet/extranet consulting
> "You don't play what you know; you play what you hear." ----- Miles Davis
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:16:00 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      Re: Carlos Castenada

tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>:
>Carlos Castenada uses Tensegrity Name to spread his teaching,
>
>i thought that is strange, both words of magic and Fuller
>are joined.
>
>    someone told recently that Carlos Castenada has been
>thrown out from the masters Ring- that is his teacher
>dan Juan have thrown him out, becuase he wants power
>instead of following the path of the heart.
>
>i have been told this by a woman, is there ann truth to
>this.

I suggest anyone interested in the work of Dr. Carlos Castaneda read the
two books written about him by Richard DeMille: "Castaneda's Journey"
(Capra Press, Santa Barbara 1976, 2nd ed 1977) and "The Don Juan Papers"
(Ross-Ericson 1980, Wadsworth Publishing 1990).

Why are Dr. Castaneda's earlier books classified as 'anthropology' and
his later books classified as 'fiction,' when they present themselves as
a continuous narrative?  Is there or was there really a Don Juan?  If
people find insight in Dr. Castaneda's work, does it _matter_ if there
is or was a Don Juan?  If Dr. Castaneda's work is 'fiction,' should he
have been granted his degree and title?  Should it be revoked - and if
so, why hasn't that occured?

DeMille offers more hard facts - and hard questions - than even his
subject does.  And the books aren't dry or hateful; rather, they are
amusing, insightful, challenging, informative and in their own way
supportive.  Some books give all the right answers; these give all the
right questions.  I won't spoil them for you...

- ONAN
--
  Rev. Dr. Onan Canobite, Hidalgo Trade Mission - SubGenius since 1982
  P. O. Box 2321, Portland OR 97208-2321 USA - box2321@teleport.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Dec 1997 08:16:57 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      Re: Books & Books

John Dunaj <AntonErg@worldnet.att.net>:
>Try Amazon Books.
>
>       http://WWW.Amazon.Com

Or Advance Book Exchange
        http://www.abebooks.com/
or Interloc
        http://www.interloc.com/

- Trevor Blake

--
J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:41:24 -0800
Reply-To:     box@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, 51408@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU,
              amarillo@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, tx@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU,
              79159-1408@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "wallace l. johnston" <lifevest@ARN.NET>
Organization: johnston associates
Subject:      Dymaxion Car Research
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Looking for enginering Q&A on the Dymaxion Cars #1 - #5 plus sportsters
and Kaiser car. Dan Howell's FAQ's E-Mail at Xerox no longer works.
Wallace L. Johnston lifevest@arn.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:30:03 -0800
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Subject:      Fuller & Race
Comments: cc: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971222125327.30673A-100000@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu>
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On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Eric Nastav wrote:
>   What did Fuller say about Races?

In several of his works (and I'm going to ask a friend for more specific
references) Fuller wrote that the idea of 'race' is unscientific.  There
is no real point where an individual can be said to be of a particular
'race.'

As I see it, 'race' is a middle ground explaining why (superficial)
differences exist but we can all mate.  If we couldn't all mate, we'd be
different species; we're the same species but 'different' so 'race'
exists... 'race' has the weight of species without the reality of species.
'Race' characteristics are cuturally defined and culturally important but
are not scientifically defined or scientifically important.

- Trevor Blake

--
J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:24:59 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Subject:      Re: Fuller & Race
Comments: cc: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.A32.3.93.971222144739.33337A-100000@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu>
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On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Eric Nastav wrote:
>   There are specific characteristics for most races.

This is circular logic: if you have characteristic "A" you are race "A" -
and if you are race "A" you will have characteristic "A."

>   But there is a geographics relationship to race and physical
> characteristics.  Some say mental characteristics, too.  But that's
> heading towards dangerous ground.  Some people think Asian babies anre
> much calmer than caucasian or African babies.  What this implies/suggests,
> I don't know.

If you are from geographical area "A" you will have physical
characteristic "A" - and people with physical characteristic "A" tend to
be from geographical area "A."

> > 'race' has the weight of species without the reality of species.
> > 'Race' characteristics are cuturally defined and culturally important but
> > are not scientifically defined or scientifically important.
> >
>   The word sub-species might be better.  True race characteristics aren't
> culturally defined.  Certain cultural practices can be associated with a
> race.  But those aren't true race characteristics since anyone can
> practice any culture independent of race.  There are probably some rare
> exceptions.  But if I want to celebrate Kwanza(sp?) I can.(I'm caucasian).

The word sub-species would not be better, it would be worse.  There is
only one human species, and it is the human species.  There are no
sub-species of human, period.

There are no 'true race characteristics.' There are (for example) people
with 'dark' skin and with 'light' skin - and there are many, many, many
shades in between.  There is no division between 'dark' skin and 'light'
skin outside of localized cultural division.  Fuller projected for decades
that humanity was becoming less localized and more global; as this trend
continues, local cultural differences will be challenged and some with die
off.  Fuller suggested that 'race' was one idea that had long out stayed
its welcome.

I am not an expert on Kwanzaa, but the following is typical of the 6-8 WWW
pages I just reviewed...

   Linkname: Everything About Kwanzaa
        URL: http://www.tike.com/celeb-kw.htm
       Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 20:05:04 GMT

DEFINITION OF KWANZAA Kwanzaa is a unique African American celebration
   with focus on the traditional African values of family, community
   responsibility, commerce, and self-improvement. Kwanzaa is neither
   political nor religious and despite some misconceptions, is not a
   substitute for Christmas. It is simply a time of reaffirming
   African-American people, their ancestors and culture. Kwanzaa, which
   means "first fruits of the harvest" in the African language Kiswahili,
   has gained tremendous acceptance. Since its founding in 1966 by Dr.
   Maulana Karenga, Kwanzaa has come to be observed by more than13
   million people worldwide, as reported by the New York Times.

By my reading, Kwanzaa is an African-American celebration.  It is not
possible for someone who is not an African-American to celebrate Kwanzaa.
I suggest that is is possible for someone who is not African-American to
express interest, understanding, compassion and support for Kwanzaa, in
the way it is possible to express an affinity toward those who are part of
any group that cannot include oneself (people in the past, people in the
future, the dead, 'foreigners,' etc.).

>   They aren't scientifically defined or important?  Hhmm...u'm not sure
> about that.  People of African origin suffer more from sickle cell anemia.
> Some Asian people have trouble with their bodies producing too much scar
> tissue...

People who have sickle cell anemia suffer from sickle cell anemia.  People
with too much scar tissue have trouble with too much scar tissue.
Defining either group by 'race' first and problem second is not helpful -
one could just as easily say people who are right handed suffer more from
sickle cell anemia and too much scar tissue.  This is scientifically
true, but misleading and not relevant to solving the problem.

Some culturally defined groups (who tend toward but are not compelled
[except culturally] to breed 'within' their own group) have higher
percentages of some genetic traits.  But it is important to refrain from
circular logic here... cultural group "A" has genetic trait "A", and
genetic trait "A" is found in cultural group "A."  The two must be viewed
distinctly, because genetics changes only as fast as science (and, some
might say, 'god') allows, while culture changes in the blink of an eye.
Making scientific decisions based on science (genetics) is a good idea,
but making scientific decisions based on culture ('race') never works out
well for anybody concerned.

Perhaps I am mistaken.  Please give me an example of a 'true race
characteristic.'

- Trevor Blake

--
J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:23:49 -0500
Reply-To:     garym@sympatico.ca
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@MAYA.DYN.ML.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Fuller & Race
In-Reply-To:  <TCPSMTP.17.12.22.-14.55.34.2781597121.1659903@bbs.sos.on.ca>
              (geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu)
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>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Blake rightly observes:

    TB> In several of his works (and I'm going to ask a friend for
    TB> more specific references) Fuller wrote that the idea of 'race'
    TB> is unscientific.  There is no real point where an individual
    TB> can be said to be of a particular 'race.'

At the Ontario Science Centre in Toronto there is a display in the
Human Body exhibit where you are confronted with a large hourglass
full of tiny white beads (thousands of them).  You are asked to turn
the glass and watch for the 3 red beads.  Those beads are the genetic
differences which determine the racial differences.

    TB> As I see it, 'race' is a middle ground explaining why
    TB> (superficial) differences exist but we can all mate.

Genetically, we are all traceable to a common mother, thus the notion
of "Family of Man" is not poetic, but scientific.  With regional
isolation, those variables in appearance within the allowable limits
of our genetic code become concentrated --- there is nothing to stop
an Asian child from having green eyes, it is only that this trait has
drifted to the bottom of the probability curve for their distribution
of DNA.

Similarly, one sibling can have green eyes and another blue in a
Norwegian family and no one would pay much attention, but dark skin
might be a surprise (although, again, not impossible) The point is,
those differences which determine our "racial features" are not
differences in DNA logic, only variances in DNA values (to use a
programming metaphor, the races are data values, not control
structures)

Now _cultural_ differences, are something else entirely and can have a
great impact on psychology, appearance and on our ability to work and
live together.  While we can be a little comforted in knowing such
differences must by nature be learned and not in-bred, the unlearning
and re-education issues are non-trivial (and typically based on who
has the biggest guns)

Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@visitweb.com> --- http://visitweb.com/~garym/
TeleDynamics http://visitweb.com/teledynamics/ RR#1 Sauble Beach, Ont CAN
telecenter design  --  telework systems  --  intranet/extranet consulting
"You don't play what you know; you play what you hear." ----- Miles Davis
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:27:03 -0800
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Subject:      The Origins of Tensegrity
Comments: cc: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <v03020900b0c493403e6b@[205.177.96.50]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Edward Rice wrote:
> In article <ELG0AC.3pJ@midway.uchicago.edu>
> (Re: 50 years ago Today!), you write:
>
>  > This is the argument Buckminster Fuller gave for some of his inventions.
>  > In the case of geodesic structures, I think it's valid: sure, Bucky
>  > didn't invent polyhedra, but he did figure out how to apply them to
>  > architecture in specific new ways [1].  In the case of 'tensegrity,' I
>  > think it's invalid: Bucky took Ken Snelson's ideas, gave them a new name
>  > and failed to give credit where credit was due [2].
>
> Except... didn't Bucky do it first?  It's hard to be derivative, when
> you're first.

Bucky points to the Dymaxion House as proof he did it first; his house was
suspended from a central mast, and he says he extrapolated tensegrity from
there.

Here, however, is another story (the one I lend more credit to) as told at
        http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/snelson.html

Snelson crossed paths with Fuller in 1948 at Black Mountain College,
   where Fuller delivered one of his Dymaxion Seminars. Deeply inspired
   by Fuller, but working on his own in the fall of 1948 in Oregon,
   Snelson came up with his first prototype structures employing
   discontinuous compression. Snelson returned to Black Mountain College
   and shared his discovery with Fuller.

   Fuller saw deep implications in Snelson's discovery for his evolving
   Energetic Geometry and coined the term 'tensegrity' soon thereafter.

   Over time, Fuller stopped crediting Snelson for making a crucial
   contribution to synergetics, which left Snelson feeling that this
   major discovery had been snatched away by an egomaniac. The resulting
   rift between Fuller and Snelson never healed.

   Snelson felt his treatment by Fuller was symptomatic, part of a
   life-long pattern which revealed a flaw in Fuller's character that
   explains much of the resistence his ideas have encountered, in the
   scientific community and elsewhere.

> Snelson was, I thought, a product of the '60's and '70's -- I'm very fond
> of his art, but despite having been to an all-Snelson show that featured
> most of his early work, don't think I can recall anything he did prior to
> 1960.

Ken Snelson was born in 1927.  "Kenneth Snelson / The Nature of Structure"
lists 1963 as the year of his first solo exhibition.

> I presume you've seen the current Scientific American issue?

Just heard about it last night from Kirby Urner (Mr. Pdx4d himself).
Looking forward to it, but it apparently hasn't hit the stands here in
Portland OR yet (I'm sure it will within the next few days).  For what
it's worth, I'm saying that Kirby said that Ken said Ken approves and was
pleased with it - but don't quote me.

- Trevor Blake

--
J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Dec 1997 18:59:13 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      Re: Castenada
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971218170900.8347A-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

here is the adress of tensegrity:

http://www.comet.chv.va.us/BODYMINDSPIRT/aprilten.htm

i think there is another adress, this one is only for the
seminar.
but there is an intreview with carlos himself,
i try to find it.

  Mohamed

i think the writing itself is quite beautiful, more inventive
than any s.f staff i know of.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:04:11 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      Re: Save Organic Standards: Genetically Engineered = Organic ??
Comments: To: List@dds.nl
In-Reply-To:  <v01540b05b0bf5c93d18b@[207.217.12.161]>
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  Dit bericht is in MIME-opmaak.  Het eerste gedeelte is leesbare tekst,
  en de rest is waarschijnlijk onleesbaar zonder programma dat MIME ondersteunt.
  Stuur email naar mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu voor meer informatie.

---559023410-1804928587-882900251=:21079
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forward eamial:

Op Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Peter  M. Ligotti schreef:

> Important * Pass this on to friends and family *
>
>
> Save U.S.A. Organic Standards--
> Genetically Engineered Food Will Soon Be Labelled "Organic" Food
>
>
> The U.S. Government has now proposed new standards
> that would allow genetically engineered foods into the
> organic market. In Sept. 1996, the Organic Standards Board
> had met, and thanks to protests by thousands of people,
> the U.S. Organic Standards Board voted overwhelmingly to keep
> genetically engineered foods out of the organic market.
>
> Now, in late 1997 and early 1998,
> the pro-big business USDA has decided to ignore that
> recommendation by the U.S. Organic Standards Board.
> The Organic Standards Board has no real power, and the
> USDA supports the recent and on-going genetic engineering of
> the conventional food supply by big business. If you look
> at their actions, the government supports the
> multinational big-business chemical companies and their
> interests, while disregarding what's best for consumers.
>
> The USDA's new guidelines on organics,
> proposed earlier this week,
> completely ignores the fundamental
> issue of cross-species genetic engineering, as well
> as food irradiation, use of toxic sludge, etc, effectively
> allowing these things into the organic market.
> They have already allowed these contaminants into the conventional
> food supply over the past couple of years.
>
> The USDA is seeking comment on whether a national definition
> of "organic" foods should (or should not) include genetically
> engineered organisms.
>
> If you are against this genetic engineering and corruption
> of the food supply, PLEASE contact the USDA by mail, fax,
> e-mail, or their website,
> and let your views be known.
> (this is a 90 day period of evaluation).
>
> Address your comments to:
>
> Eileen S. Stommes, Deputy Administrator
> USDA-AMS-TM-NOP
> Room 4007-So.
> Ag. Stop 0275
> P.O. Box 96456
> Washington, D.C. 20090-6456
>
> The full text of the Proposed Rule is in the
> December 16, 1997 Federal Register Vol 62, No.
> 241, page 65850.  You can also access the Federal
> Register at http://www.epa.gov/  Click on "laws
> and regulations", then on "federal register
> database" (from government printing office), then
> on "federal register".  Mark the search boxes for
> "proposed rules", "December 16, 1997" and
> "national organic program".
>
> You are also invited to join the BanGenFood
> (Ban Genetically Engineered Food or bangenfood)
> Internet Mailing list
> to be kept up-to-date on this issue.
>
> Send a message to
>
> pmligotti@earthlink.net
>
> With  "subscribe BanGenFood" in the subject line.
>
>
>
> Pass this around and contribute to the discussion.
> This is important.
>
> _____________________________________________________
> _____________________________________________________
>
> More On This Issue from Dr. Richard Wolfson in Canada:
>
>
> If you want to make your voice heard on this issue,
> of whether genetically engineered foods can be
> labelled as ORGANIC, visit the website:
>
> http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/
>
> "Foreign" comments, ie from those outside
> of the USA, are encouraged as this
> issue impacts on all people who
> comsume US food exports.
>
> As the website is a little complicated,
> I was given directions:
>
> 1.  First on the front page of the website,
> you have to register (and get a user name and password)
> to allow you to comment. (takes about 1 minute)
>
> [outside of the USA, just put your country,
> no state or zip code, or you
> will get an error message]
>
> 2.  You will have to choose the three sections of
> the bill that contain reference to
> genetic engineering.  They are:
>
> -CROPS
> -NATIONAL LIST
> -LABELING
>
> [In each of these sections, you can also check some
> subsections, but this is optional]
>
> 3.  It is easiest to write your comments on the
> whole issue in a small text file before logging on
> and copy/paste your entire comments text into the
> comments window of all three areas (one at a time).
>
> [My comments (in case they are helpful) were:
> Please do not allow genetically engineered seeds
> or any other aspect of genetic engineering to be used
> in organic production.  Because genetically
> engineered foods have not been tested for their
> long-term effects on human health, on animals,
> or on the environment, I do not want to consume them.
> In fact, I would like to see all genetically engineered
> foods labelled as such so that I can choose not
> to consume them in any form.]
>
> .................
>
> Thank you for your help.
>
> Richard
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Richard Wolfson,  PhD
> Campaign for Mandatory Labelling and Long-term
> Testing of all Genetically Engineered Foods
> Natural Law Party, 500 Wilbrod Street
> Ottawa, ON  Canada  K1N 6N2
> Tel. 613-565-8517  Fax. 613-565-1596
> email:  rwolfson@concentric.net
>
> Our website, http://www.natural-law.ca/genetic/geindex.html
> contains more information on genetic engineering.
>
> To receive regular news on genetic engineering and this
> campaign, please send an email message with 'subscribe GE'
> in the subject line to rwolfson@concentric.net   To
> unsubscribe, please send the message 'unsubscribe GE'
> __________________________________________________________
> __________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>
---559023410-1804928587-882900251=:21079--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:33:55 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Eric Nastav <enastav@BKSTORE.CSERV.IUPUI.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University - Purdue Univeristy At Indianapols,IN
Subject:      Re: Fuller & Race
In-Reply-To:  <199712230023.TAA09735@maya.dyn.ml.org>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:

> the glass and watch for the 3 red beads.  Those beads are the genetic
> differences which determine the racial differences.
>
  Yes, and there are very few that separate us from chimps, apes, and
orangutans, too.

> Genetically, we are all traceable to a common mother, thus the notion
>
  Yes, I believe it is called divergent evolution.  Ultimately tracing
organisms to common ancestors transcends species classification.  Lizards
and birds, for instance have a common ancestor.

>
  There are differences in the gene pool relative to geography.  There are
more genes in the gene pool of Asia for dark, thick, straight hair.  So
it's more likely that a child born there would have those traits.  The
idea of race doesn't suggest or imply that there are differences in "DNA
logic" as far as I know.

> Now _cultural_ differences, are something else entirely and can have a
> great impact on psychology, appearance and on our ability to work and
> live together.  While we can be a little comforted in knowing such
> differences must by nature be learned and not in-bred, the unlearning
> and re-education issues are non-trivial (and typically based on who
> has the biggest guns)
>
  I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Are you suggesting that we
shouldn't have different cultures?  Or that it's bad that certain cultures
are associated with certain races?

  Eric
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:47:27 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Becky Jaxon <bjaxon@PRAIRIENET.ORG>
Organization: Prairienet
Subject:      Re: K-12 math curriculum (was "Roman Math")

Kirby Urner (pdx4d@teleport.com) wrote:
: remove the dots <m._.m.o.y@hotmail.com> wrote:
:
: >Kirby Urner wrote:
: >>
: >> > = Herman Rubin
: >>   = Kirby
: >>
: >> You and I probably have a considerable distance between us re
: >> 'numbers' and might want to expand that out under some other
: >> topic.  Here's a section from our curriculum for the Oregon
: >> Homeschoolers Network which will probably help to distill our
: >> differences:
: >
: >Do you have a pointer to your curriculum? I'd like to take
: >a look at it.
: >
: >michael
:
: Now I do:
: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/
:
: Still under development, but coming along, with a little
: help from my friends.
:
: Kirby
: 4D Solutions
:
: ---------------------------------------------------------
: Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
: 4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
: ---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:17:01 -0500
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From:         Jason <kbrill@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject:      Re: Castenada
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:59 PM 12/23/97 +0100, you wrote:
>here is the adress of tensegrity:
>
>http://www.comet.chv.va.us/BODYMINDSPIRT/aprilten.htm
>
>i think there is another adress, this one is only for the
>seminar.
>but there is an intreview with carlos himself,
>i try to find it.
>
>  Mohamed
>
>i think the writing itself is quite beautiful, more inventive
>than any s.f staff i know of.

More inventive?  We're not talking about s.f. here, this is an ancient
religion predating the Aztecs and Mayans by thousands of years.  It has
been passed down from generation to generation until it became distorted,
then there was a rennassaince, and the focus, the purpose, was looked over
- and renovated to what it had become when Castaneda was trained byt Don
Juan.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:59:04 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      Castenada
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971218170900.8347A-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

hi Jason,

i am not subscribed to geodesic, i have to start clean mail every time
i do respond to someone.

my question if its tradition why do they say that Carlos cant show
any proof that he acturly went through his journy with this man of
knowldge. i have to search the subject, but i cant at this moment.

also, you said it is not invetion, this mean that the Dan Juan realy
exist. a woman here in Amsterdam told me that he real does exist, and
have died; while he was alive he through Castenad out because they
say that he wanted powere and not the spirt.

there is alos this other guy who is using carlos books to make practical
steps to follow, i looked at his book quickly and it sound just
punch of rubish.

the last thing i heard yesterday, was that LSD, and Pyote are medicine
that is strange to think of them like that.


  tagdi
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:10:40 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      Re: Castenada
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

i recieved this email from Gary, i think it is good mail about the
subject.

I don't know this first hand, but from reliable sources in the Native
Net mailing list and at the University where Carlos published his
first work: Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no Don Juan, and
Casteneda's works are not only not Hopi; they are pure fiction (good
fiction, but fiction nonetheless).

Casteneda is unable to support any of his claims, cannot produce his
notes or any other evidence of having done anything more than travel
briefly among the Hopi during his graduate years while working on his
masters degree.  Like the 'Celestine Prophesy' which also poses as a
factual account, this does not mean he does not have lessons to teach
us, but only that the world he paints in his books is fantasy, not
reality.

Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@visitweb.com> --- http://visitweb.com/~garym/
TeleDynamics http://visitweb.com/teledynamics/ RR#1 Sauble Beach, Ont CAN
telecenter design  --  telework systems  --  intranet/extranet consulting
"You don't play what you know; you play what you hear." ----- Miles Davis
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:21:49 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Jason <kbrill@CONCENTRIC.NET>
Subject:      Re: Castenada
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Addressed to Gary Lawrence Murphy - can you state all this (referring to
the first part) as fact?  Have you read Tunneshende? Have you read Ken
Eagle Feather?  Castaneda will not (not cannot) produce his notes for
personal reasons, and it has nothing to with secrecy to hide a lie.  It is
in fact his own conspiracy, hidden behind a shroud called Tensegrity, a
packaged half-truth designed for monetary gain.

Simply because no one can confirm these works is not proof whatsoever. I
know of people who practice Castaneda's (i.e. - Don Juan's) teachings with
startling results.
To deny the truth of his books is to deny the power of humanity, which is
something we'vbe simply forgotten in our technocratic/capitalist society
we've created.

Whether his name was Don Juan - whether he was Hopi or a Native of Asia or
in fact a descendent of the ansient Toltecs is irrelevant.  Castaneda
accidentally stumbled upon a key to our history time had forgotten - a very
important key for ourselves.  It points to new insights into the ancient
Mayan prophecies - not the mystical mumbo-jumb we've made it out to be, but
as it really is... and this may be one of the most important factors of his
writings.

Simply because we so not understand a thing, it does not necessarily follow
that that thing does not exist.  We need to open our eyes and forge what we
know, because maybe what we know is more wrong than we'll ever know.


At 12:10 PM 12/24/97 +0100, you wrote:
>i recieved this email from Gary, i think it is good mail about the
>subject.
>
>I don't know this first hand, but from reliable sources in the Native
>Net mailing list and at the University where Carlos published his
>first work: Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no Don Juan, and
>Casteneda's works are not only not Hopi; they are pure fiction (good
>fiction, but fiction nonetheless).
>
>Casteneda is unable to support any of his claims, cannot produce his
>notes or any other evidence of having done anything more than travel
>briefly among the Hopi during his graduate years while working on his
>masters degree.  Like the 'Celestine Prophesy' which also poses as a
>factual account, this does not mean he does not have lessons to teach
>us, but only that the world he paints in his books is fantasy, not
>reality.
>
>Gary Lawrence Murphy <garym@visitweb.com> --- http://visitweb.com/~garym/
>TeleDynamics http://visitweb.com/teledynamics/ RR#1 Sauble Beach, Ont CAN
>telecenter design  --  telework systems  --  intranet/extranet consulting
>"You don't play what you know; you play what you hear." ----- Miles Davis
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:39:58 -0500
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From:         Mike Markowski <markowsk@EECIS.UDEL.EDU>
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Subject:      Re: Fuller & Race

In article <Pine.A32.3.93.971223112132.35843B-100000@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu>,
Eric Nastav  <enastav@bkstore.cserv.iupui.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote:
>
>> Now _cultural_ differences, are something else entirely and can have a
>> great impact on psychology, appearance and on our ability to work and
>> live together.  While we can be a little comforted in knowing such
>> differences must by nature be learned and not in-bred, the unlearning
>> and re-education issues are non-trivial (and typically based on who
>> has the biggest guns)
>>
>  I'm not sure what you are saying here.  Are you suggesting that we
>shouldn't have different cultures?  Or that it's bad that certain cultures
>are associated with certain races?

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I suspect that's
not at all what he meant.  Cultures, like races, develop differently
because some large group becomes isolated from other large groups.

While your question hints at the existence of the mostly positive
aspects of culture, I thought Gary was simply addressing the
negative in his last sentence.  One of the biggest negative factors
in being isolated is that by not knowing other cultures, you (the
generic 'you', that is) often think your ways & traits are better
than everyone else's.  Or at least, you become the center, and the
lesser folks are everywhere else.  It can become a path to devaluing
lives of other people and their "strange," or worse still, "savage,"
ways.  (I mean the description is worse, not the cultures of course!)

Mike
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:39:13 PST
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         prkosuth <prkosuth@MYCHOICE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Castenada
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971224115014.11748A-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I only reead the _Teaschings of Don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge_. It was
excellent.. the use of peyote for thinking and visioning purposes was
predominant in the book. I seem to recall that the rap against Castenada
was that Don Juan was a collection of people and experiences and that no
single Don Juan really existed. Also, Castenada was an anthropology student
at the time of the initial book. The initial book, I believe was part of
the work for his masters or PhD. .. I may be wrong .

Zen still wins out, I think.

----------
> hi Jason,
>
> i am not subscribed to geodesic, i have to start clean mail every time
> i do respond to someone.
>
> my question if its tradition why do they say that Carlos cant show
> any proof that he acturly went through his journy with this man of
> knowldge. i have to search the subject, but i cant at this moment.
>
> also, you said it is not invetion, this mean that the Dan Juan realy
> exist. a woman here in Amsterdam told me that he real does exist, and
> have died; while he was alive he through Castenad out because they
> say that he wanted powere and not the spirt.
>
> there is alos this other guy who is using carlos books to make practical
> steps to follow, i looked at his book quickly and it sound just
> punch of rubish.
>
> the last thing i heard yesterday, was that LSD, and Pyote are medicine
> that is strange to think of them like that.
>
>
>   tagdi
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Dec 1997 03:58:20 -0600
Reply-To:     jlawson@texnet.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         james lawson <jlawson@TEXNET.NET>
Subject:      A Global Energy Grid Christmas
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------6D5859983D6862FCF1DE4E57
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Christmas greetings and a jolly Christmas story for all of Bucky's
little helpers working for peace on Spaceship Earth!
<BR>&nbsp;
<CENTER><FONT SIZE=+1>Santa's Production Team</FONT></CENTER>

<CENTER><FONT SIZE=+1>and the Building of a Global Energy Grid:</FONT></CENTER>

<CENTER>The New Story of Christmas!</CENTER>

<CENTER><FONT SIZE=-2>Copyright 1997, by James Lawson</FONT></CENTER>


<P>Although Santa Clause has never been able to produce enough gifts for
everyone,
<BR>Buckminster Fuller made a startling discovery. Buckminster Fuller found
that as a result of ever increasing refinements in technology, Santa's
workshop can now be made so efficient and his delivery system so fast,
that complete physical life support abundance can be delivered to all humanity
-- 'overnight.' But Santa needs more energy to keep his production team
operating day and night. Buckminster Fuller said that the building of a
Global Energy Grid is the number one priority for achieving complete physical
success for all humanity.

<P>So what's the number one priority for a crew of elves with the task
of delivering the gift of peace to all the world? Connecting Santa's workshop
to the Global Energy Grid!

<P>Santa Clause wanted to retire to Miami and build his workshop there.
So why did he build his workshop in the Arctic Circle near the Bearing
Straits? Because his workshop must be located at the hub of the Global
Energy Grid to gain enough energy to produce an abundance of goods for
everyone.

<P>Once Santa's workshop is connected to the Global Energy Grid every day
will be like Christmas. Then we can realize the true meaning of Christmas
and achieve Peace on Earth.

<P>Now children of Spaceship Earth it's time you learned, the potential
of Santa's production team and the Global Energy Grid I grant you is true,
but there is no Santa Clause to make that dream real -- it's up to you
to make that dream come true.
<BR>&nbsp;

<P><I>Santa's Production Team </I>is just one of many projects designed
to inspire humanity to achieve a world of peace, without poverty or want
that will be featured on a forthcoming web site at www.SpaceshipEarth.com.
I hope this&nbsp; brief introduction brings you holiday cheer.
<BR>&nbsp;
<CENTER>Let there be Peace on Earth, and let it begin with you!</CENTER>

<CENTER>Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!</CENTER>


<P>Information on the Global Energy Grid can be obtained from the<A HREF="http://www.geni.org/">
Global Energy Network International at&nbsp; www.geni.org/</A>

<P>'The Earth reminded us of a Christmas tree ornament hanging in the blackness
of space... That beautiful, warm, living object looked so fragile, so delicate,
that if you touched it with a finger it would crumble and fall apart.'&nbsp;
-- Apollo 15 Astronaut, James Irwin
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>&nbsp;
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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Dec 1997 20:09:55 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      Re: Castenada

prkosuth <prkosuth@MYCHOICE.NET>:
>I only reead the _Teaschings of Don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge_. It was
>excellent.. the use of peyote for thinking and visioning purposes was
>predominant in the book. I seem to recall that the rap against Castenada
>was that Don Juan was a collection of people and experiences and that no
>single Don Juan really existed. Also, Castenada was an anthropology student
>at the time of the initial book. The initial book, I believe was part of
>the work for his masters or PhD. .. I may be wrong .
>
>Zen still wins out, I think.

I strongly recommend you read Richard De Mille's books on Castaneda.  I
won't try and quote him here; the following are paraphrased memories...

(1) If Don Juan does not literally exist, as the author states, is this
the only lie he told?
(2) Is it just another form of exploitation to to use a living culture
as a tool to convey the author's ideas?
(3) If Castaneda can get a doctorate for telling a lie, what does that
do for the credibility of his school?
(4) Is it wrong to tell a lie to convey a truth?

That last question is my favorite.

- Trevor Blake
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 25 Dec 1997 22:14:32 GMT
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From:         GBenson615 <gbenson615@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      Truncation plane problem and an error in Geodesic Math and how to
              use it

If you have a copy of Geodesic Math and how to use it turn to pages 95-98.

The given is that all vertices that are on the truncation plane have the same
value of theta. The book says the same thing at the bottom of page 96.

The problem is that the lower diagram Fig 14.3 leads to the wrong values of
theta for the up pointing triangle at vertices 4,3; 4,2 and 4,1. On the up
pointing triangle vertice 4,3 is the same as 5,3 on the down pointing triangle
and 4,1 is really vertice 5,2 on the adjacent (to the right) angle.

Looking at the values of theta from the table on Page 142 one sees the problem.
The discussion on page 97 and 98 support the data below and I belive is in
error.
5,2     99.883
5,3     99.883
4,3     80.116
4,2     80.116 (adjusted from 79.187 per descusion Pages 97-98)
4,1     80.116

I belive they should all be 99.883. After all,a 5/8 cut is below the equator
and theta has to be greater then 90.

Comments please

Gary Benson
gbenson615@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 26 Dec 1997 00:33:36 GMT
Reply-To:     box2321@teleport.com
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: box2321.com
Subject:      Castenada - follow-ups to alt.dreams.castaneda

This thread has strayed from a discussion of Buckminster Fuller to a
discussion of Carlos Castaneda - I've just set my follow-up to the
newsgroup alt.dreams.castaneda and recommend others do the same.

- Trevor Blake

--
J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 02:13:45 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Fuller & Race
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markowsk@eecis.udel.edu (Mike Markowski) wrote:

"Race" was a (failed) attempt to taxonomize humanity based
on physio-genetic factors and has little to nothing to do
with "culture".

Culture transmits independently of genetics.  One of the
problems with racist dogmas is they always converged
the two, given the lines people wanted to draw were
ethnic as much as anything.

Genetic variation exists, obviously, and we can attribute
some of the variety to adaptations to geography and climate.
We don't need to categorize by "race" in order to note and
explain these adaptations however.

In a given community, we may well encounter such labels as
"black" and "white" applied to its members, but the usage
patterns will vary considerably from one community to
another -- you have to actually study the patterns and not
just assume you already know the lingo just because the
labels are the same.

How people get typified, labeled, pigeon-holed is indeed
what psychological anthropologists look for when attempting
to put together a model of a culture or subculture and its
many conceptual schemas and polarities.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 09:35:19 -0500
Reply-To:     nop@nospam-ipass.net
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Mitch C. Amiano" <nop@NOSPAM-IPASS.NET>
Organization: IPass.net
Subject:      Re: The Origins of Tensegrity
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P. O. Box 2321 wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 1997, Edward Rice wrote:
> > In article <ELG0AC.3pJ@midway.uchicago.edu>
> > (Re: 50 years ago Today!), you write:
> >
> >  > This is the argument Buckminster Fuller gave for some of his inventions.
> >  > In the case of geodesic structures, I think it's valid: sure, Bucky
> >  > didn't invent polyhedra, but he did figure out how to apply them to
> >  > architecture in specific new ways [1].  In the case of 'tensegrity,' I
> >  > think it's invalid: Bucky took Ken Snelson's ideas, gave them a new name
> >  > and failed to give credit where credit was due [2].
> >
> > Except... didn't Bucky do it first?  It's hard to be derivative, when
> > you're first.
>

Even Bucky's geodesic dome patent is a couple of years after he met Ken
Snelson.If you look at that dome patent, you see evidence of a two-layer dome
based on
nested tetrahedral tension/compression units. The configuration appears to be
according
to the first modification suggested by Fuller (e.g. replace the X form with a
radial tetrahedral
form). The paper trails appear to indicate that Snelson's accounts are
inarguable.

As a novice reading of Fuller in my pre-teens, then later discovering all the
other geometrical
work out there, it has always struck me as odd that Fuller didn't mention
this-or-that
contribution by others. That led me to believe that the phenomenon which I had
been so
immersed had a kind of personality-cult dynamic to it. This was an unfortunate
direct
consequence of the Guinea-Pig B hypothesis.

To this day it appears to linger on in his legacy. It is quite unfortunate.
What,
I wonder,
would have been accomplished if the hypothesis had been inclusive of "others"
instead
of merely "lone self"?

> Bucky points to the Dymaxion House as proof he did it first; his house was
> suspended from a central mast, and he says he extrapolated tensegrity from
> there.
>

The innovation of light compression members suspended in apparent and real
isolationfrom one another was clearly Snelson's. The use of tensional materials
to cohere building
systems was just as clearly Fuller's. But Bucky's plagiarism (what else could
it
be seen
as?) was just another example of the all too common pattern of a teacher
confusing
his own position as "giver of knowledge" with a moral authority to acquire
credit
for
any student's innovations. This kind of opportunistic parasitism flourishes
throughout our
institutions of higher education; Bucky perpetuated it himself, and I think
that
is reprehensible.
But then, that's just my opinion.

> Here, however, is another story (the one I lend more credit to) as told at
>         http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/snelson.html
>
>

I'd also encourage you to read the letter to the IJSS journal, at
"http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/docs/rmoto.html".This letter seems to give a
better understanding of why Snelson would not have exploited tensegrities in
quite the way Fuller had.


- Mitch Amiano
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:58:51 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Subject:      FS: Bucky Fuller Books
Comments: cc: Clique Children's Book List <childbks@clique.interdart.com>
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[#2295] (Fuller, R. Buckminster) Alden Hatch: BUCKMINSTER FULLER AT
HOME IN THE UNIVERSE. New York: Dell Publishing Co., 1976. Wraps, 12mo,
279 pp. (Photographic illust.) Very Good: ink to front cover. Bucky
biography by a life-long friend, occasionally revealing a most human
side of the Friendly Genius. Out of print. $25.00

[#2190] Fuller, R. Buckminster: I SEEM TO BE A VERB. London: Bantam
Books, Inc., 1970. 1st ed. Wraps, 16mo, (Agel, J. and Q. Fiore illust.)
Very Good. Out of print, paperback-only, increasingly scarce
McLuhanesque treatment of Bucky. White cover. $35.00

[#2371] (Fuller, R. Buckminster) Stuart Hample: NON-BEING AND SOMETHING-
NESS / SELECTIONS FROM THE COMIC STRIP INSIDE WOODY ALLEN. New York:
Random House, 1978. Wraps, 4to, (Hample, Stuart illust.) Very Good.
This volume of comics about (but not by) Woody Allen is introduced with
a multi-page comic by Bucky... weird. OP. $27.50

Note: I am a children's book dealer by trade but am always buying Bucky
books for myself... well, not always, but often.  Here are some duplicates
I have aquired of late.  Have anything interesting?  _Really_ interesting?

________________________________________________________________________
 =A9 1998 Trevor Blake

J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books
P. O. Box 2321, Portland OR 97208-2321 USA
telephone: 503-236-2364 / e-mail: box2321@teleport.com
World Wide Web: http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm

Terms of Sale:
- All books offered subject to prior sale.
- All books returnable within two weeks in as-shipped condition.
- Two week hold with order.
- Please confirm before ordering.
- Books shipped 1st Class USPS in North America.
- $4.00 postage first book, $1.00 each additional in North America.
- Outside of North America, shipping billed (please inquire).
- Reciprocal dealer discount, libraries accommodated.
- Checks in United States currency to "Trevor Blake" only, please.
- No credit cards accepted.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 18:54:17 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Syn-l: Convergence and Divergence quote
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(see below)

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: John Mac Cosham <dharmraj@highway1.com.au>
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com <synergetics-l@teleport.com>
Date: Monday, December 29, 1997 05:17 AM
Subject: Syn-l: Convergence and Divergence quote


>I find the following quote from Synergetics Dictionary a good reason to try
>and learn the Synergetic geometry.
>
>dharmraj
>
>page 371
>
>"...You all went to school being taught the XYZ coordinates of parallels
and
>perpindiculars...But Universe is not operating that way.  Universe is
>operating in radiational-divergence and gravitational convergence.
Divergent
>and convergent: that's the way Universe operates.  This is nothing like the
>XYZ coordinates and all that--they have nothing to do with the way Universe
>works. Things in parallel never get resolved. Convergent things get
>beautifully resolved, they get exactly...they get nature into a
>corner....That's why you couldn't have a nucleus in a perpendicular or a
>parallel system. You can only have nuclei when you have convergence. And
>that's why I say how far out our schooling really is."
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 29 Dec 1997 13:04:02 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Spencer W Hunter <shunter@U.ARIZONA.EDU>
Organization: The University of Arizona
Subject:      Re: Hey!

I never know if responding to posts in this newsgroup will be seen
by anyone, since it's ported from a listserve (and my volume of email
restricts me from joining any listserve).

It's amusing to read this as I stare at my 216-triangle parabolic
rflector.  The technique is ridiculously simple; take a flat hexagon,
divide it up into 216 triangles ("six frequency") and orthographically
project it onto a paraboloid to obtain the 21 different templates needed
to contruct the dome.

The paraboloid may indeed be the best type of dome for certain applications
such as resistance to snow loads or for suspending floors from it.  However,
Fuller's icosahedronal domes are more efficient in several catagories, such
as resistance to loads other than gravitational (eg, wind or earthquake),
needing the fewest number of triangular templates to construct, amount of
material needed to construct, and in ease of environmental control (since
a sphere has the least surface area exposed to the outside per volume
enclosed).

I'm still playing with and am fascinated with parabolic shapes, though, and
I may post my work to my page "real soon now."

In bit.listserv.geodesic Grantland <mithril@iafrica.com> wrote:
>   If  a parabola is the strongest arch-shape, is a rotated parabola
> (-oid?) the strongest dome-shape?  Is it?  If so, why can't I find any
> parabolic domes on the net?
>   Just interested.

>   Grantland

--
Spencer W. Hunter   Tucson, AZ.  |     veni, vidi, vamos.
shunter@u.arizona.edu            |     they came, they saw, they left.
gopher://www.u.arizona.edu:80/hGET%20/~shunter
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:14:59 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Another Voucher Proposal (cool!)
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OK, here's a model.  This is looking at older kids, high school
to any age, though with adaptations could be expanded to
younger kids.

First, we trash the foolish notion that "school" means some
contiguous succession of classroom experiences, punctuated by
"bells" and time in the hallways, that one's "school day" is
about rushing from room to room inside a specific building.
True for some, sure, but it doesn't have to be that way,
especially in some areas.

Second, we free ourselves from the limiting preconception that,
as a student, I have to buy into a specific school for all
topics and disciplines. As a student, I'm interested in finding
out about all the best teachers in town, going to their
classes, plus having time to do my own explorations via
internet cafes, home-schooling and other guided learning
experiences.

As a teacher, I maybe am based with a specific school, and I
have collegues.  A school is more a base of operations for a
faculty, bonded by training and outlook in some way -- but
students needn't be bound by these same affiliations. They come
to my school for calculus, but tend to not for geography, say,
even though we offer that subject.  Schools get reputations for
being strong in this or that.  Students flock to the top ranked
-- or discover little-known, but sometimes as good or better
teachers in lower profile institutions.

So kids have a bus pass and complicated schedules.  They visit
two or three schools in the course of a week, maybe more, maybe
less, and maybe have whole days, mid-week even, when schooling
takes place in other venues.  Because we're not training
everyone to be a 9-to-5er, factory-drilled to respond to shift
change "bell" stimuli anymore, nor slaved to supervisors of
little talent running cubicle slave ships -- our kids know to
up and leave if their "school" is sinking fast (unless maybe
this is a submarine -- extending the metaphor too far I
realize).

How exactly vouchers fit in I'm not sure.  Testing is more
obvious.  If you want to work for the government, you'll have
to pass government tests.  If you want to work for corporation
X, you can be sure corporation X will have its criteria, and
you'll need to meet them, or get more training and try again.
So it's not that students will slack off and completely abuse
the system -- because they want stellar lives, to be admired
for their competence and dedication, just like all true adults
(yeah, I know, some grownups never make it to adulthood, but
most of them do).

On the money front, probably you get a charge card to use for
specific classes (instead of a "voucher"). And scoring or
performing well in some courses (including "work-study") can
actually get you more credits on the card, honored by other
schools. So if you apply yourself, you may get a lot of
schooling without having to spend much money.  On the other
hand, you may not have the time to really develop mastery, and
so have to spend more, waiting until another time in your life
to go the scholarship route (no shame in that).

This all requires a lot of computerization and collaboration
among schools -- nothing we can't handle, from an engineering
standpoint.  The end result is a lot more opportunities for
kids, and a lot fewer options for teachers who want to abuse
the system by forcing kids through their poor quality classes
even though much better teachers of the same subjects are just
a bus trip away.  The transcript stuff will have to be
centralized somewhat, not completely under the control of any
one school -- another computer application.

I remember at Princeton, student assessments of teacher
performance were collated by computer and made available as
printouts to students.  I could go look up any teacher on
campus and read over ratings on all kinds of aspects, and weigh
how important these might be (sometimes I'd consider my
classmates unable to trully appreciate a specific teacher, who
might have a reputation as "arrogant" or "tough" -- but turned
out to be singularly excellent in my book, i.e. student tastes
and needs vary, so being super popular was really not essential
to your survival as a faculty member at Princeton -- the school
supported faculty for other reasons besides getting high marks
from undergraduates).

I'd like to give more students, and not just in college, that
freedom to pick and choose, across a whole variety of schools
and not just one.  This would allow small schools to form with
really excellent faculties, and to attract enough of a
following to survive and prosper.  But such schools would not
be forced to excel in all subjects, nor to manage every detail
of the student's day -- that's the student's responsibility.
If you miss the bus, don't go whining to the school teachers,
as their job is simply to provide the best learning experiences
of which they are capable, not to make sure you remember to set
your alarm clock.

Fun system no?  Don't tell me we can't do it, because I know
full well that we can -- and I think will in some settings.

Kirby
Curriculum writer
4D Solutions

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 01:19:38 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Outrageous (was: things in math books)
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TRM <diogenes*antispam*@kear.tdsnet.com> wrote:
^^^
???

>
>I hope that you cover everything in algebra I that the students will
>need for my algebra II class.  If not, they will fail.
>
>I will wrap this up by saying, "Get a clue."  You have the opportunity
>to buy good books with an organization you agree with.  Do so.

Jim Blodgett <jblodgett@ecmhs.org> responded:

>I am afraid I disagree with most of this.  Being lock-step with a text
>written to please as many people as possible (read California, Texas,
>New York...) is what makes math so repugnant to many students.

I agree with you Jim.  As a former text book editor with McGraw-Hill, I'm
well aware of the many compromises built in to satisfy mass-market criteria,
which you must do to survive.  Smaller houses may produce curricula more
customized to certain needs, as the earlier poster claims, but in the math
arena especially, there's a tremendous tendency to recycle old material,
especially in the higher grades.  We're still educating kids to be the
"next Newton" in a lot of ways -- e.g. the calculus is entrenched way
out of proportion to its importance relative to all kinds of other
explorations (new calculus texts may help -- I'm looking forward to the
one Dr. Ralph Abraham is working on, which will segue into the chaos
stuff way more smoothly, if there's an English language edition that
is).

Text books have their place of course.  I urge my students to consult
several, to compare older with newer.  We engage in some "deconstruction"
of these books -- given my background, I have them look at pictures and
discuss whether these conform to contemporary standards re depicting
many different physical types, not having women in a passive "gee whiz"
stand behind the guy doing the activity etc.  Fun to see how the old
math books think nothing of showing only guys -- and geeky ones at that.

When it comes to geometry especially, I'm aware of no mass market
text book suitable for my students.  They all spend way too much time
in "flatland" and use a dorky, obsolete approach to spatial geometry
which kids today find laughable, once exposed to the right stuff.

Basically, the math curriculum is in a sorry state with a lot of
bureaucrats and committees enforcing standards of little or no
relevance to the real world needs of students -- not nearly enough
computer use, way too much "graphing calculator" poopka.  Math
teachers are often the worst when it comes to updating the curriculum,
since they only know to teach what they themselves were taught, so
any hint of a new or different curriculum is quickly suppressed in
a flurry of business about "safer" topics.

Yet not all math teachers fall into the above category I hasten to
add. We have many pioneers here in Oregon State, many fine teachers
not afraid to say to their students: "these text books are way
behind the times -- we'll use them for what they're worth, but I'm
going to be providing you with better and more relevant materials
than what's in any of them -- and we'll be accessing the internet
as well, where I've found useful teaching materials by people who
are anything but clueless about where math is going in the 21st
century."

Kirby
Curriculum writer
4D Solutions

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:58:53 -0500
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From:         Dan Kucheran <dankuchg@NT.NET>
Subject:      Re: parabolic domes
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Parabolic dome - not on the net! the very simple reason that they are not on the
net is because all of human-kind knowlege and experience can not be experienced
all at once: the evolution of knowledge - of structure and design -of simplicity
of form and operation{ in order words : adjustment to achievement}... that is
why Spencer we will be looking forward to seeing your creation in the next few
entries to this "interest group"
Dan Kucheran
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:48:21 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      the world champions having good time.
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971218123517.28834C-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
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an article in wholesystem about synergey of the weather in relation
to the moon. you have to know how to get it, the archieves have
changed and i cant access it. i tried today without success.

  archieves is listed in this at the end of this page list of connection.

  www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/6308

----------------------------

  american studies student from england told me about this writer

  Carol Quiqley,  the subject is the elite in america.

 ------------------------------------

  the energy grid seem to be going no where, it seem to me that their home
page is not clear and is not very informative.

  clinton and Yelson like to party and travel to other world cities,
the first like to play Golf and sing about how great is america-
just like a Perrot.
 Carbochove is advertising for Pitza Hot, you have to remember the
 president of the energy grid has talked to him when he was still
president. one wonders about what goes on on these people heads,
 they seem to be nonfunctional. some of the riches people are
very silly persons if you see what they do- observe the 60 million
dollar house of Gates, who will live in seattle anyway for that
much money.

  to keep the aironatic industry in business after the second war,
the goverment had to help them to move to civil production.
this is the same with all other industries, Fuller have pointed
to this fact frequently the overflow of technology to livingry.

 i dont know much about the subject, but on reflection it seems
that the weapon personal like to keep their wages goining by
investing in advanced weapons and new war tech as everyone can
see the U.S is doing, inspite of what the CIa intrest in
Global issues- and the CIA have great world refrece encyclopidia.

and there are 3-4 million of them. might it not occure to them
just like might occure to Poeing Co, to insure their future business
 to
invest in the housing industry.
at one time i said that poeing and Macdonal-which started in 1930 by
Macdonald brothers- see how easy things start- just like the other
service places- had 25 billion dollar assets. i got that number
from News paper i think it might have been Hearld tribuine but
i am not realy sure if that number is correct- the problem of
getting the information you want instently- may be in the future
we could have statistic and questions data base.


  the income of Niger security minister in 1985 was 2000 pounds
a year, 200 dollar for physcist in Romania- english newspapers.
1000 dollar average- just an estimate in Bolkans area states,
remember Clinton was in Serevo telling them it is up to them to
keep the peace- he is realy somthing the guy.

the sciences  formed structures- seprate structures-
while Universe is a senario
Universe is made of propositions conneted to each other
has nothig to do with spacial images- say of boxes and sphers
which theory of astrophisics uses as models of invistigation
of how Univers looks- of course i am playinf as if i i see
Universe as senario.
we come to the sun every morrning wether we were sleeping or
standing direction movment eastward, silent cyclic
geroscoping earth movement- one circle of horizan limit
might be 25 miles trianguling, this means that the earth
is made of 40 million of these such circle-eye dome earth
circles geyring-precision instrument of past used as a model.
 as some are doing we might
need new languge to get the gear of the brain to
adapt this senario swiftly- but  how- the special case
are accelerating-  first we need money to get the freedom
to think as now the police is running things and the monkeys
like it, 98% of prisoner are inside because of theft- have to
thing in scarcity contrived society were supply is milliuon
times more than the demand.

   tagdi

p.s advice to myself
follow the senario that connect to the one you were
  studying, start from the most comprhensive but then
the article must be very carefuly chosen- paste them together
fuller was rong by not giving refrence deadly rong, was it ego thing,

  how rong Fuller was, or he might have not known-
a particular book might have only 2 chapters of good information
and enlighing the whole p[icture for example this book
titled British Industries and their organization-g.c.allen
has good chapter about the air industry- great in the line of
Fuller thought. this other book Business Strategy by H.Igor Ansoff
had study cases in the end that shed light on the car idnustry,
while the rest of the book is useless.
i learned of the static law price high volume static model-graph- of
Ford companey and the difficulties of inovation in 1930s-
due to lag in advanced technology- which is true till
we come after the WWII to be great acceleration in all levels
including electronics.
advanced technology doesnt mean overspecialization- i think you
see my problem.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:13:17 -0500
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From:         TRM <diogenes*antispam*@KEAR.TDSNET.COM>
Organization: TDSNET
Subject:      Re: Outrageous (was: things in math books)
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Kirby Urner wrote:

> When it comes to geometry especially, I'm aware of no mass market
> text book suitable for my students.  They all spend way too much time
> in "flatland" and use a dorky, obsolete approach to spatial geometry
> which kids today find laughable, once exposed to the right stuff.

Then write the text and let people choose.  I have read some of your
stuff from your website.  I appreciate the effort and I agree with some
of what you say in regards to changes in the US curriculum.  I wouldn't
follow your curriculum, however, based on what I've seen of it
(admittedly, not much).

> Basically, the math curriculum is in a sorry state with a lot of
> bureaucrats and committees enforcing standards of little or no
> relevance to the real world needs of students -- not nearly enough
> computer use, way too much "graphing calculator" poopka.

ANG was saying that she didn't care what the district bought for
textbooks.
>> amen to that!!!  We are in our adoption year for math texts and my attitude
is
>> who cares what we choose?  The books we have had for the past 5 years are
>> horrible, but we have adapted and created our own "stuff" and I am just as
>> happy to continue doing that.

If she was truly advocating ignoring the new book, why spend $50K -
$100K on something she has no intention of using?  Talk about real-world
applications of common sense!  What real-world lesson are we proposing
here?  "Go ahead and spend the money - we'll store the books in kids'
lockers.  We have plenty of extra money to get what we really need."  On
the other side of the coin, I proposed taking this opportunity to find
or write a new book. (I disagree with you, Kirby, as to the availability
and utility of material)  As another alternative, use that $50K to buy
something the faculty really could use and continue to poke into the old
textbook as usual.

> Math
> teachers are often the worst when it comes to updating the curriculum,
> since they only know to teach what they themselves were taught, so
> any hint of a new or different curriculum is quickly suppressed in
> a flurry of business about "safer" topics.

Bull.  The maths and sciences are the first to incorporate newer
material. For those who graduated before 1980, anything to do with
personal computers, the internet, and graphing calculators is "new" and
wasn't taught to us.  Somehow we manage to incorporate this into the
curriculum.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:45:16 -0500
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From:         Eric Nastav <enastav@BKSTORE.CSERV.IUPUI.EDU>
Organization: Indiana University - Purdue Univeristy At Indianapols,IN
Subject:      Re: Another Voucher Proposal (cool!)
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On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Kirby Urner wrote:

> Second, we free ourselves from the limiting preconception that,
> as a student, I have to buy into a specific school for all
> topics and disciplines. As a student, I'm interested in finding
> out about all the best teachers in town, going to their
> classes, plus having time to do my own explorations via
> internet cafes, home-schooling and other guided learning
> experiences.
>
  Interesting.  I'm tempted to think that many kids aren't mature enough
for that and don't have the appropriate attitude toward their education at
that this would require.
  However, giving that much freedom and trusting them that much might
change their attitude.  There was a recent documentary on happiness on TV.
One of the interesting points was that people are more happy if they have
choice and some control over their fate.
  It'd also have to be done in a city with good transportation.
  I think part of the value could also be that teachers have different
teaching styles and students have different ways of thinking and learning.
So students could choose the teacher that they feel they can learn the
easiest with.

> So it's not that students will slack off and completely abuse
> the system -- because they want stellar lives, to be admired
> for their competence and dedication, just like all true adults
> (yeah, I know, some grownups never make it to adulthood, but
> most of them do).
>
  But you keep referring to them as kids.  So don't you expect them
to act like kids?  I don't think most make the connection at that point in
time between getting a good, fulfilling job and having a decent education.
  I disagree with your portrayal of adults as ("true adults") as "people
who want to be admired......".  In my point of view it doesn't matter what
everyone thinks.  Whether they admire you or not, who cares.  You have to
judge yourself by your own standards if you wan to be happy.
  Self teaching should be encouraged if the student prefers to learn that
way.  I think it's sometimes referred to as independent study.  For some
people, it's much more efficient.

> This all requires a lot of computerization and collaboration
> among schools -- nothing we can't handle, from an engineering
> standpoint.  The end result is a lot more opportunities for
> kids, and a lot fewer options for teachers who want to abuse
> the system by forcing kids through their poor quality classes
> even though much better teachers of the same subjects are just
> a bus trip away.

  I totally agree.  More opportunities, more choices, more effective and
efficient education.
>
> Fun system no?  Don't tell me we can't do it, because I know
> full well that we can -- and I think will in some settings.
>
  It seems like it would make the competition be between teachers more
than schools.  There should/could be some incentive to teachers.  Salary
increases partially based on the demand for them.
  It's also possible that teachers wouldn't work for any school at all,
but for the state.  They would just need to have a building to use.  But
there wouldn't need to be any cafeteria environment or bells ringing in
the hall like you say.
  You aren't going to "school".  You are going to a place for the purpose
of leaning.

  Eric
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:40:55 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      Re: Outragious
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971218170900.8347A-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
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hello,
i speaking in genral and not in logical way as i should be.
so, dont take this as part of the dialogue.
i wonder if this dialogue is in other news groups, anyway i think that
Kirby is right about teachers not changing the curriculm not only
 of math, but in all subjects.
it doesnt take me to search the subject to see that. i see studients
who study for teaching and guess what they want- some income and
leasure of the summer, and nostalgica idea about children( great
wish to be a child again).

it takes more than 4 years of mediocar eduction to teach children,
if you want to them to realy learn and not satisfy dying ideology.
i recommend to you to read the chapter " Music for the new life "
in Fuller book Utopia Or Oblivion", i mentioned it because it
makes sense. in this chapeter he talked about the best condition
to keep children genious.

teacher are scared for their job, just whatch what is happening
in Engleand- the issue of teachers and competence is constantly
in the news the last few years.

but wether you discusse it or not, a lot of parents like their
children to be Bethovens and Leonardos and not stupid exmoranic
emplyee. what is developing is that people are moving to the
most demonstraitivly education wise systems. as an example
some ideas surfaced in some magazine to search for the great
teacher- i red this in some magazine i dont recall the title
of- and just to add the new discoveries about neroscience about
papies in their mothers woom and what happens there and the result
of that on the first 4 years of child life.

so in a way fuller ideas about many things are finding natural
voice, another example is what you hear about material science.
i suggest that the new systems would not be obvious till there
is fundemantal change in the system of capitalism and its
waste. the only change we see now is in the increase of distraction
in the economy such creating nonsense demands because of the
scarcity and denial sendrom- fraustrated people will do crazy
things( great number of Italians come to Holland to smoke Hashish because
of the static mentality of that country- and holland in its turn collects
money adding to the inertial)

one great change would be to change the whole system of
logistics and transportation, let go of paper work- scientific
america service the dialogue between specialist and doesnt
realy adress the society, i have in mind their last article
about transportation, it was talked about as if it was isolated
issue, also you can see it from their cleaniness that their
morality is based on status.

i once read in social encyclopidia published in england that teachers
of primary and elementry school have very midiocar knowldge,
 they are industriuous- meaning moving about but that is not
saying that they are capable.

of course that is not totaly true, but in general it's correct.
most of children questions have been blocked by the age of 12,
for the sole reason that teachers cant answer them.
and this is said it gets worst when you go to other countries.
the idea of cement is quite true even in nondemocratic countries,
this indicate that most people see only the visible manfistation
of things. there use to be American highschool in Tripoli for
the children of oil workers( each high school have a great
footbal field), it is like the music industry likes
to prodcast love songs- i feel for you, you are the only one
crap. i just find who made BBC corporation. this maze is more
 complicated than i thought.

america is the only society that is geared for easy change,
its infrustructure is excelent, the autombil fits well with
the demands of the society- i red that even the carage indicats
the connection to the highway( the autombil age).

now america is a software, and space society that is from
the 1960 is the moving metaphor or dictum. the foundation
is perfect if not contrfited by the multinational.

sorry for not being succinct and 100% accurate, this is due
to my limited capacity to digest information.



tagdi

p.s in realtion to the electric grid, it accured to me that
the people who shoud be targeted to implment the change is
not the preisdents of countries but the industry of electrical
equibment. i recall the one chines ticcon started enormous
electric stations in china- the chinse was a capitalist who
lived in america.

we real still as whole think in one thing at the time, so
we dont know how to coordinate different variable.
i suggest that software will bring many surpirses in the
future- doing things with minimum effort.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:08:47 +0100
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From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      Re: housing solutiion
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.971218170900.8347A-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
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hi Robert,

i like to know more about your dome construcion.

thanks

 my emil

 aagdii@dds.nl
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:29:54 -0700
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From:         "Thomas L. Billings" <itsd1@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: Inst. for Teleoperated Space Development
Subject:      Re: Another Voucher Proposal (cool!)

In article <34a8acee.125070335@news.teleport.com>, pdx4d@teleport.com
(Kirby Urner) wrote:


Kirby's model below seems very well adapted to team-teaching
as a reality, rather than the anemic crippled "teams" that are
allowed where "the administration" is keeping the teachers
under almost as tight a leash as they do students.

In fact, adding the option of  Learning Teams to this has
been one of my favorite fantasies for years.  Start kids
forming long-term Learning Teams after several years of
building up specific team skills beforethe age of 10 or so.
Allow them to team together based on mutual interest in
a particular area of career or academic subjects.  By
sometime after 15 or so, their Learning Team would often
begin to solidify into an economic Production Team in their
area of interest.

The vouchers might be improved on if you set up a loan and
tested payoff system.  Loan parents the money for an
education only account, perhaps privately, then pay into the
loan account based on test scores that would allow more
payback for higher scores.  It wouldn't exclude a poor student,
but would give great incentive to the parents to bring the
child's performance up.  This would especially be the case if
top scores brought in more money than was spent on the
teaching to get those scores.  Put in a unrestricted bonus
for true excellence!  A few lazy parents might end up being
supported by their hard-studying children?  Ahhh!  Incentive!!!

This, combined with the teaching and learning teams would
provide a situation of fast response to student needs.  The
Teaching Teams would be small enough to change policy or
tactics fast, while having clout withthe super./janitor who
now rents out the school buildings.  The financial clout of an
entire Learning Team with each Teaching Team will be
stronger than an individual's would be.  If 15 paying pupils
from the same Learning Team don't show up on Monday, and
a note appears on E-mail, listing reasons, the Teaching
Team _will_ take notice!  Meanwhile, parents will be making
sure their children and the teachers working with them,
don't leave the loans unpaid!

The sticking point is of course in Kirby's second paragraph.
He's just demanded that the academic hierarchs committ
economic hari-kari!  Theirself-interest here is even more
threatened than with voucher programs in general.  Start
this privately, with industry associations funding the
vouchers/loan paybacks, and there would be more chance
for success.

Regards,

Tom Billings

> OK, here's a model.  This is looking at older kids, high school
> to any age, though with adaptations could be expanded to
> younger kids.

> First, we trash the foolish notion that "school" means some
> contiguous succession of classroom experiences, punctuated by
> "bells" and time in the hallways, that one's "school day" is
> about rushing from room to room inside a specific building.
> True for some, sure, but it doesn't have to be that way,
> especially in some areas.

> Second, we free ourselves from the limiting preconception that,
> as a student, I have to buy into a specific school for all
> topics and disciplines. As a student, I'm interested in finding
> out about all the best teachers in town, going to their
> classes, plus having time to do my own explorations via
> internet cafes, home-schooling and other guided learning
> experiences.

> As a teacher, I maybe am based with a specific school, and I
> have collegues.  A school is more a base of operations for a
> faculty, bonded by training and outlook in some way -- but
> students needn't be bound by these same affiliations. They come
> to my school for calculus, but tend to not for geography, say,
> even though we offer that subject.  Schools get reputations for
> being strong in this or that.  Students flock to the top ranked
> -- or discover little-known, but sometimes as good or better
> teachers in lower profile institutions.

> So kids have a bus pass and complicated schedules.  They visit
> two or three schools in the course of a week, maybe more, maybe
> less, and maybe have whole days, mid-week even, when schooling
> takes place in other venues.  Because we're not training
> everyone to be a 9-to-5er, factory-drilled to respond to shift
> change "bell" stimuli anymore, nor slaved to supervisors of
> little talent running cubicle slave ships -- our kids know to
> up and leave if their "school" is sinking fast (unless maybe
> this is a submarine -- extending the metaphor too far I
> realize).

> How exactly vouchers fit in I'm not sure.  Testing is more
> obvious.  If you want to work for the government, you'll have
> to pass government tests.  If you want to work for corporation
> X, you can be sure corporation X will have its criteria, and
> you'll need to meet them, or get more training and try again.
> So it's not that students will slack off and completely abuse
> the system -- because they want stellar lives, to be admired
> for their competence and dedication, just like all true adults
> (yeah, I know, some grownups never make it to adulthood, but
> most of them do).

> On the money front, probably you get a charge card to use for
> specific classes (instead of a "voucher"). And scoring or
> performing well in some courses (including "work-study") can
> actually get you more credits on the card, honored by other
> schools. So if you apply yourself, you may get a lot of
> schooling without having to spend much money.  On the other
> hand, you may not have the time to really develop mastery, and
> so have to spend more, waiting until another time in your life
> to go the scholarship route (no shame in that).

> This all requires a lot of computerization and collaboration
> among schools -- nothing we can't handle, from an engineering
> standpoint.  The end result is a lot more opportunities for
> kids, and a lot fewer options for teachers who want to abuse
> the system by forcing kids through their poor quality classes
> even though much better teachers of the same subjects are just
> a bus trip away.  The transcript stuff will have to be
> centralized somewhat, not completely under the control of any
> one school -- another computer application.

> I remember at Princeton, student assessments of teacher
> performance were collated by computer and made available as
> printouts to students.  I could go look up any teacher on
> campus and read over ratings on all kinds of aspects, and weigh
> how important these might be (sometimes I'd consider my
> classmates unable to trully appreciate a specific teacher, who
> might have a reputation as "arrogant" or "tough" -- but turned
> out to be singularly excellent in my book, i.e. student tastes
> and needs vary, so being super popular was really not essential
> to your survival as a faculty member at Princeton -- the school
> supported faculty for other reasons besides getting high marks
> from undergraduates).

> I'd like to give more students, and not just in college, that
> freedom to pick and choose, across a whole variety of schools
> and not just one.  This would allow small schools to form with
> really excellent faculties, and to attract enough of a
> following to survive and prosper.  But such schools would not
> be forced to excel in all subjects, nor to manage every detail
> of the student's day -- that's the student's responsibility.
> If you miss the bus, don't go whining to the school teachers,
> as their job is simply to provide the best learning experiences
> of which they are capable, not to make sure you remember to set
> your alarm clock.

> Fun system no?  Don't tell me we can't do it, because I know
> full well that we can -- and I think will in some settings.

--
Institute for Teleoperated Space Development
itsd1@teleport.com(Tom Billings)
ITSD's web site is at,  http://www.teleport.com/~itsd1/index.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:31:03 GMT
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From:         KY <nb37@DIAL.PIPEX.COM>
Organization: UUNet UK server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNet UK)
Subject:      3V rotunda help please

I've been playing around with a 3V rotunda (on paper), got to grips with
defect angles and have run into a problem.  How do you calculate the "z"
angle at the vertices. say, for example, you wanted to manufacture nodes to
hold the 5 or 6 struts of a physical dome together.

Thanks for any help

Kevin
Kev.y@dial.pipex.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:22:21 -0500
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From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: housing solutiion
Comments: cc: my emil <aagdii@dds.nl>
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emil,
You wrote:
<<i like to know more about your dome construcion.
thanks>>
        =

        My WEB page has links to both the geometrical basis and
construction detailing along with a photo layout of both the fabrication
and assemby.  I also give on- site training courses or courses at my
training center in K.C. MO.  I have a training schedule linked on my WEB
site.   I also have detailed instructional dome booklets, along with
colored photo slide show presentations, with commentary,  for both
fabrication and assembly, available from the "order" page linked on my
site.  The slide presentation requires "Windows" software.  =

        But in a nutshell, I can say that I have taken what I feel is a
much simpler and utilitarian path than using the icosahedral frequency
manipulation of Fuller.  I also have presented a simplified connection
system in detail on the WEB along with a brace system which quadruples th=
e
structural strength while at the same time staying with a simpler design.=
 =

The construction technique that I present, uses simple miter cuts versus
the complex compound miter cuts used in traditional panel construction.  =
It
also stays with the modest sizing and uses 2 panels instead of the
traditional 3 panel approach.   I would go to a more complex 3 panel
approach for structures larger than 38' in diameter, but I feel that even=

with the simple connectors and simple miter cuts, that a 3 panel design =

would be to complicated for the individual to build for themselves, at
least until they had considerable experience building domes.  =

        These presented structures are design intensive in order to use
conventional materials and tools in the most conservative manner.  The ji=
gs
used for construction, if used with care, should produce precise dome
structures even for the most novice of builders.  =

Bob
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy
p.s.
Your address ends in "nl".  Is that the Netherlands?  If your country has=
 a
metric standard with standard lumber coming in metric sizes, please let m=
e
know your country, and the standard sizes of lumber available locally whi=
ch
correspond to English 2x4s, 2x6s, & 4x8 sheet material in sizes of 1/2" a=
nd
5/8".  I also will need to know your standard door sizes and windows
equivalent to the English 32" & 36" width door and 43" & 34" width window=
s.
This winter I plan on drawing plans using the metric standards if I can
find some kind of world standardization.  =
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 31 Dec 1997 17:22:37 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Syn-l: Dropping links to BFI.ORG
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****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Stutz <stutz@dsl.org>
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com <synergetics-l@teleport.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 31, 1997 02:05 PM
Subject: Re: Syn-l: Dropping links to BFI.ORG


>On Mon, 29 Dec 1997, Kirby Urner wrote:
>
>> I consider the fallow state of bfi.org, unchanged for months
>> with a "preview" that never goes anywhere, demoralizing to
>> those of us into seriously advancing the design science agenda.
>> Until that website shows some activity, I'm dropping any links
>> to it from my site.
>
>Got a letter from BFI (dated 12 Dec) which stated, in part:
>
> We are pleased to announce the first phase of a project to build an
> on-line "operating manual for spaceship earth." Our vision is to
> ultimately create a state-of-the-art internet service providing
> comprehensive access to resources and information critically
> relevant to humanity's success.
>
> In 1998 we will start placing key sections of the Fuller Archive on
> the internet. By providing electronic access to important planetary
> resources such as the Archive, we believe the Institite can be a
> meaningful catalyst toward the realization of a world where the
> essential needs are met for all people on an ecologically
> sustainable basis.
>
> ...
>
> It is imperative that access to this remarkable R&D gold mine, and
> chronicle of the 20th Century be fully available to concerned
> citizens around the planet such as students, scholars, educators,
> designers, scientists, futurists, and renewable resource advocates.
>
> ...
>
> Our mission and the on-line launch of the Fuller Archive reflects a
> fundamental new understanding about what BFI is well positioned to
> accomplish, and how we can make the greatest impact in continuing to
> develop Bucky's work. By combining our unique assets with the
> remarkable potentials created by information age technology,
> especially the internet, we can rapidly facilitate communication and
> synergy between an expanding, but highly fragmented number of
> individuals, projects and organizations dedicated to solving
> cruicial global problems.
>
> ...
>
>
>Michael Stutz  .  http://dsl.org/m/  .  copyright disclaimer etc
>stutz@dsl.org  :  finger for pgp     :  http://dsl.org/copyleft/
>
>