From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Oct 4 13:59:09 2002 Return-Path: Received: from acsu.buffalo.edu (deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.57]) by linux00.LinuxForce.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian -4) with SMTP id g94Hx7md024646 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:59:07 -0400 Message-Id: <200210041759.g94Hx7md024646@linux00.LinuxForce.net> Received: (qmail 27358 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2002 17:58:54 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (listserv@128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 4 Oct 2002 17:58:54 -0000 Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:58:12 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8e)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9802" To: Chris Fearnley Status: O Content-Length: 414590 Lines: 9343 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:59:51 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Tensegrity & Castaneda Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit box2321@teleport.com (P. O. Box 2321) wrote: >>You'll find what you're looking for at: >>http://omega-inst.org/spotlight/tensegrity.html > >I have viewed the above URL; it does a disservice to living artists >like Ken Snelson and living cultures like the Yaqui. > Yeah, maybe it does. I'm not for making a legal case out of it though. I consider "tensegrity" one of Fuller's gifts to the public domain, and if someone wants to serve mediocre food at the "Tensegrity Cafe" on some road to nowhere someplace, that's their business -- we can always come out with our negative reviews. >I encourage people to study the history of Ken Snelson's work, and to >read the books of Richard de Mille regarding Castaneda. > Richard something of a character in his own right, no? Or maybe I have him mixed up with somebody else. In any case, I appreciate your scholarship. Ken Snelson is one of the great artists of our time. Kirby --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:00:08 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Subject: *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the semi-monthly "How To" file about the GEODESIC list. It has info on content and purpose of the list, as well as subscription info, posting instructions, etc. It should prove useful to new subscribers, as well as those who are unfamiliar with LISTSERV operations. This message is being posted on Sun Feb 1 00:00:04 PST 1998. 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(Can be in the same message.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe and unsubscribe.) Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:03:54 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David M. Birdsey" Organization: NDH Netzwerkdienste Hoeger GmbH Subject: Re: Seeking web pages re international law and war crimes On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:00:15 GMT, pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote: > > >To: Students of enviro-law, diplomacy, computer simulations >Re: Biochem Leakage through US action and the Hanford > Chem Weapons Stockpile (Iraq as precedent) > >I'm looking for web pages detailing the legal arguments >protecting the US from any criminal charges if its weapons >inadvertently unleash biochem agents which spread to >surrounding populations in Iraq or in neighboring countries. There was a large collection of international law documents online at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy web site (check www.tufts.edu and follow links to Fletcher). Off the cuff, though, I would say issues of intent are probably (at least they were in the WWII war crimes trials) crucial. David M. Birdsey http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/1721/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:06:46 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: reality and other questions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII what is reality? what is epistemology? tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:08:38 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: U.S Defecit In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII what is the total defecite of U.S. i know that in 1985 or so it run 100 b dollar a year, but that doesnt tell me how much the toltal. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 14:42:11 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: Statistic III, for the archieves. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In the U.S it takes 8-10 years for new plant to be built. the U.S spends 10 billion on department of energy. Use of energy by sector: Industry 40% transport 25% residential 19% cooking 1% Lightning 2% Water heating 4% air cdonditioning refrigeration 5% ** ------------------ in the future residential will use less, industry more because of more sonsumer goods and appliance will use less energy. lead acid storage batteries cost 2000 times the charge of electricity. a power grid has to supply twice as many KW in peak hours as it does in the middle of the night. fluctiuation is handeled by inefficient disel genrators, or hdydropower. In a crash, jet fuels stas on the fround as liquid, soaking the clothing of victims and burn them at the ground level, hydrogen rises very quickly, if burned flames would be high in the air. fuel cells using dydrogen used in appolo program were 50% efficient. German city Stuttgart uses buses that run on Hydrogen. Alchool has little energy per gallon compared to gassoline. Hydrogen efficiency 80% Hydrocarpone 40% comercial jet are now no better than old gas guzzler cars that got eleven or so miles per gallon while carrying 4 persons. 4 person aircraft flies fast enough to equal a highway speed of 225 miles/h. fuel efficient far more so - 80 seat miles/gallon. the poeing 727 a from aironatical point of view accounts for more passenger than any other aircraft does only about 1/2 as well per mile. automation progressing slow because of the expensivness to programing a computer. welddding robots work well only if presented with identical bodies and if mechanical parts are not worn out. automation is practical when work reduced to 1/10 in a particular industrial operation or raising the production 10 fold. more than that it gets too expensive- Viking prop that landed on Mars in 1976 costed 1 billion dollar was extremly automated. generaly workers support introduction of automation if they are not thrown out of a job. 2081 Gerard k.O'Neil Puplished 1985 ------------------------------ some sentences are word for word from the book, i dont know how to synthsize information better than this. my comment on the above: i think that when you talk about raising the efficiency of engins 3 times to get 100% of humanity in good standard of living, you must know what engin you are talking about. and when you talk about automation youy must know also what actualy automation does now. my perspective from the indicators above is that the engine is going to be one oc central points that will push society into great standard. but it is also clear that the engine design doesnt progress very fast. it is alos from the point of view of science fiction that the engine we have or the coming ones are going to be are very inadvance in comparison to futuristic ones. in short we have not reached the level of sophistication yet. by making the airplane engine 3 times efficent, this will reduce the cost of travell to 1/3- this a speculation- so that a trip from London to Seatle would cost 250 dollars, and in the winter would cost less. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 07:00:18 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Trimariner Subject: Re: U.S Defecit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom Aagdi asks: >what is the total defecite of U.S. Last figure I have for the "Official" (admitted to) US deficit is in excess of 4.5 trillion dollars. The interest payment on this amount of money will exceed the total GNP of the US in 1998. Maybe they will default like a third world country. More likely they will change the rules. The "Unofficial" deficit, which includes all the unfunded responsibilities of the US government, pension funds, social security payments, etc., exceeds 14 trillion. I say unfunded because all the money from these pensions, etc., has been moved to "general revenue". That means it has been spent on other things. Bob Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:15:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Seeking web pages re international law and war crimes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit m.haegeli@ndh.net (David M. Birdsey) wrote: >There was a large collection of international law documents online at >the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy web site (check www.tufts.edu >and follow links to Fletcher). Off the cuff, though, I would say >issues of intent are probably (at least they were in the WWII war >crimes trials) crucial. > > >David M. Birdsey I'll take a peek. I noticed in the Oregonian this morning that USA Defense Secretary Cohen said it will be difficult to eliminate any "fledging" biochem programs and bombers would be taking "great care" to avoid strikes that might make any- thing airborne (Feb 1 98, pg. A4) -- the USA might be legally, even criminally liable for all the negative health effects in the event of biochem releases (part of what we're looking into, given the huge chemical weapons stockpiles in our neighborhood, and the legal ramifications if we experience any leakage either before or during their eventual decommisioning). This will be one of the most highly studied strikes in military history I'm pretty sure -- lots of post mortems by students moving into international law and diplomacy, since the forces are so lopsided and the target nation has not recently attacked anyone, nor made overt threats against its neighbors, and is already a target of long term economic sanctions, creating great pressure on its government to stand up to the outside world (the harassing weapons inspectors, especially the USA ones, was of course entirely predictable, given the politics involved). Going to war in such circumstances is new -- some might debate whether the term "war" even applies. We're writing to war college professors to get their take on the applicability of "war" in this case. If it isn't a "war" then we may have to apply a whole different set of legal criteria when evaluating the outcome. In fact Cohen says the strike will be purposely limited to keep the threat to Iran intact (Iran is against the strike) -- i.e. USA geopolitical strategy rules out completely eliminating Iraq's ability to wage war, something he says this was a factor in the Persian Gulf business as well -- i.e. Iraq would ideally become a client again, for approved categories of weapon. Everyone is interested in how the post Cold War USA perceives itself as "leading the world" and here we have the strongest indication yet that it plans to do so with a heavy hand, including over the objections of allies. Many diplomats are right now imagining themselves in Iraq's position (biochem agents are among the cheapest to develop, even if very difficult to control in the field, difficult to safely decommission, and essentially banned under many sections of the existing body of legal agreements) and realizing what the absence of any geopolitical counterweight to the Pentagon means to them as well. Just how heavy handed the Pentagon plans to be is what we'll need to find out in detail. Before and after pictures from civilian satellite sources will need to be requisitioned to supplement what we get from military sources, plus we'll need ground visits and eyewittness video, as we cannot rely entirely on damage assessments from non-neutral parties. Kirby --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:37:05 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Wm. Dennis Huber" Subject: Re: Seeking web pages re international law and war crimes Kirby Urner wrote in message <34d4a57b.151968686@news.teleport.com>... >m.haegeli@ndh.net (David M. Birdsey) wrote: > >Going to war in such circumstances is new -- some might debate >whether the term "war" even applies. We're writing to war college >professors to get their take on the applicability of "war" in >this case. If it isn't a "war" then we may have to apply a whole >different set of legal criteria when evaluating the outcome. Instead of "war" why don't we call it a "police action." It would cut down on having to develop new arguments. We could merely resurrect some of the ones used 30 years ago. Dennis Huber ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:36:04 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: solargrl Organization: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/7540/index.html Subject: Re: Domes in the Movies I just stumbled into this newsgroup. My fave movie dome is the one on Tatooine where Luke Skywalker was raised by his aunt and uncle. In one scene, the aunt calls, "Luke! We're shutting down the solar generator!" ------ SolarGirl's Green Pages: http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/7540/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:19:22 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Riversong Subject: Re: Math AND Bucky Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:40 PM 1/29/98 -0600, you wrote: >I've noticed that mathematics is often discussed on this list in >addition to RBF. For what it's worth, here's a note that ties both >together. In the late 60's and early 70's, Bucky was associated with a >mathematics curriculum project in Carbondale, Illinois. It was called >The Comprehensive School Mathematics Program (CSMP) and it was performed >under the auspices of the Central Midwest Regional Educational >Laboratory (CEMREL) in St. Louis. > Wasn't that project, or a similar one, documented in the book, On the same subject, a new friend has set up a fascinating math curriculum on her web site. While she is not into Fuller's work per se, i think she's getting interested. The site is http://www.naturalmath.com I would like to know what members of this list think about her curriculum. I think what she has done could very easily integrate Synergetics. -- Michael Riversong ** P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900 Professional Harpist ** Author of ** MRiversong@earthlink.net ** http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong MUSIC SAMPLE now available on the web site QUALITY ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS - Take control of your life now. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:29:10 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "David M. Birdsey" Organization: NDH Netzwerkdienste Hoeger GmbH Subject: Re: Seeking web pages re international law and war crimes On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 17:15:00 GMT, pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote: snip >This will be one of the most highly studied strikes in military >history I'm pretty sure -- lots of post mortems by students >moving into international law and diplomacy, since the forces >are so lopsided and the target nation has not recently attacked >anyone, nor made overt threats against its neighbors, and is If one ignores the 1990 invasion of Kuwait (which is after all what started this mess). As for overt threats against neighbors, Saddam imho is far to slick to vertly threaten anyone. What he has done fairly successfully in the post-Gulf War past is make incremental challenges to both the UN and U.S., putting both in the unenviable position of either ignoring the basis for the cessation of hostilities in 1991 (sanctions, inspections, etc.) or responding with a seemingly (but not, again imho, actually) inappropriate attack. snip > >In fact Cohen says the strike will be purposely limited to keep >the threat to Iran intact (Iran is against the strike) -- i.e. What did Cohen actually say? I sort of doubt he put it so bluntly. snip >Everyone is interested in how the post Cold War USA perceives >itself as "leading the world" and here we have the strongest >indication yet that it plans to do so with a heavy hand, I'm not sure one can take Iraq as the guiding paradigm for how the U.S. will deal with the "NWO." Witness Bosnia, NATO expansion, etc. where we are pleading with Europe to take on more responsibility, not less. snip >Just how heavy handed the Pentagon plans to be is what we'll >need to find out in detail. Before and after pictures from >civilian satellite sources will need to be requisitioned to >supplement what we get from military sources, plus we'll need >ground visits and eyewittness video, as we cannot rely entirely >on damage assessments from non-neutral parties. personally, I don't think it has to be that heavy. Ask yourself, "what does Saddam value?" > >Kirby > >--------------------------------------------------------- >Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html >4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] >--------------------------------------------------------- David M. Birdsey http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/1721/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 00:27:30 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Seeking web pages re international law and war crimes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I'm looking for web pages detailing the legal arguments >protecting the US from any criminal charges if its weapons >inadvertently unleash biochem agents which spread to >surrounding populations in Iraq or in neighboring countries. > More background materials for international law and war college students & faculties studying: (a) Iraqi strike historical precedent and categorization of action (b) events triggering weapons inspection harrassment (c) agent defeat methodologies in relation to civilian populations (d) USA domestic biochem weapons disposal programs and contingency measures (e) PR approaches to biochem/WMD agent releases (inadvertent) (i) overseas, e.g. in Iraq and/or neighboring areas and (ii) in USA territories incl Hanford & Johnston Atoll Summary: The USA threshold for Iraqi post-war rebuilding efforts reached a a cut-off with any oil-for-food program proposals designed to net Iraqis a level of technology on a par with the 1990s industrialized nation standard (e.g. phone exchange and computer equipment), preferring to keep a desperate, subsistence economy in place in hopes of toppling the current regime -- a policy similar to the one already enforced for many decades against Cuba. Given Iraq's substantial oil reserves, bottling up this supply also gave competitors greater control over the world price, stemming fears of downward pressure on the pump price should the Iraqis be allowed to open the taps to super- tankers vs. the minor overland leaks via truck convoy currently tolerated. In the face of strengthened Iraqi resolve to break free of this time table and dreary "next Cuba" fate -- as demonstrated by balkings at unimpeded inspections, complaints about USA inspector obstreperousness, demands for "end of tunnel" agreements which would accelerate certification of compliance in dismantling WMDs and reopen many closed trade channels (encouraged by high tech commercial interests with profit margins to protect and/or widen in the event of expanded trade) -- punitive strikes against military and quasi-military targets were ordered by Washington DC, even though some US allies were unprepared to back an attempt at a military solution outside the United Nations process. US Defense Secretary Cohen was among those pointing out that a strike might end any future UN monitoring while failing to fully remove WMD capabilities. However, with London firmly in DC's corner, the USA seemed prepared to press ahead with a military approach to the situation. Given that biochemical agents are dangerous targets, and that the USA keeps large stockpiles of such agents in limbo, as the bureaucracy works through disposal methodologies, many lawyers became interested in the "agent defeat" scenarios underlying the USA's confidance in going ahead with a strike, finding its arguments reminiscent of the blanket assurances given out to civilians over the years around the various planned and operating biochem disposal operations in back yard facilities in the continental US or in the Pacific region (Johnston Atoll). There was also some interest, in war colleges especially, in the Clinton Administration's willingness to define the USA's post Cold War posture as one of giving free reign to Pentagon planners over any objections of other UN Security Council members -- a clear sign of future policy directions (and possibly of higher gas pump prices for USA consumers, given the prospect of the complete elimination of any Iraqi oil company competition for the foreseeable future). Kirby ======== 1996: Food for oil does not include restoring telephone service or computer databases -- both essential to USA food bank operations -- US State Department to block such aquisitions according to VOA report. [http://www.intac.com/PubService/human_rights/COUNTRIES/IRAQ/1996/010796.html] "Our two nations share an interest in preventing Iraq from ever again threatening its neighbors, either conventionally or through the development of weapons of mass destruction," she said. "We also share concerns about Iran. Commercially, our two nations are partners. Over the years, our economic relationship has diversified. Both sides are committed to expanding trade and investment ties even further." Remarks by Secretary of State Albright to Saudi Minister of Defense Prince Sultan, February 27, 1997 [http://www.usis.it/wireless/wf970227/97022706.htm] UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- With a strangling U.N. embargo making life increasingly miserable for Iraqi civilians, diplomats are questioning whether they will ever again impose such a complete cutoff in trade.... There is no support in the Security Council for lifting the sanctions until Iraq dismantles its banned weapons programs. But there is a growing belief that the Iraq experience proves the economic sanctions strategy is flawed because sanctions cause the greatest suffering to the people least responsible for incurring them. [http://collegian.ksu.edu/issues/v100/sp/n126/AP-Iraq.html] ======== >From US News: "Agent Defeat." U.S. allies also may object to a lengthy assault. The longer the campaign, the greater the risk of killing civilians and angering world opinion. Saddam Hussein has, in the past, herded citizens into likely targets. Laboratories are deliberately sited near hospitals. And there is the risk of dispersing deadly biological agents into the atmosphere, though Pentagon experts discount this. Anthrax spores, for instance, are likely to be incinerated by bombing, they say. On January 14 at Eglin Air Force Base, the Air Force conducted a test, code-named Agent Defeat, to study how to use penetration bombs to minimize this risk. If the United States were to bomb Iraq but fail to permanently knock out its weapons program or force cooperation with U.N. inspections, then what would America do next? Follow-up steps under consideration include expanding the no-fly and no-drive zones that restrict Iraq's military forces in northern and southern Iraq. Economic sanctions would almost certainly remain in place. Without them, says the CIA, Iraq could rebuild its biological weapons program in weeks, its chemical program in six months. Yet even with sanctions, it would just take a little longer. With Richard J. Newman and Kevin Whitelaw in Washington, and Christian Caryl in Moscow [http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/980209/9iraq.htm] ======== Defense Special Weapons Agency PR re Johnston Island: http://www.dna.mil/dswainfo/pludswa.htm ======== DEQ PR re Umatilla Army Depot Chemical Weapons Destruction http://www.deq.state.or.us/general/uad/pubinvlv.htm ======== DSWA programming incl WMD Agent Defeat & simulations: http://www.fas.org/spp/military/budget/peds_98d/0602715h.htm http://afmc.wpafb.af.mil/HQ-AFMC/DR/dre-home/corr.htm ======== Senator Murkowski (R AL) re Chemical Weapons Treaty April 24, 1997 "While this treaty does not reach the countries whose chemical weapons programs pose the greatest threat -- North Korea, Iraq, Libya and Syria -- we will have more success in isolating and sanctioning these countries if we pursue a multilateral, rather than a unilateral approach," said Murkowski. Murkowski said the United States is going to have to be vigilant in monitoring nations worldwide concerning their adherence to the terms of the treaty and to oppose their development or use of chemical weapons. [http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/press/ChemicalWeapons042497.html] ======== (U) 3. Agent Neutralization. The Agent/Neutralization Project obtains key data needed to understand the collateral effects consequences of strikes against chemical and biological weapons-related facilities. Specifically, criteria are defined for the neutralization of agent materials by weapons-induced environments, including thermal, shock, and chemically reactive environments. This project also develops collateral effects source terms for vehicular targets. Whereas the DNA agent neutralization program is focused exclusively on neutralization of biological agents, the Counterproliferation Program accelerates the definition of chemical agent neutralization criteria, the development of neutralization models for both biological and chemical agents. The program also provides expelled agent viability experiments on bunker strike demonstration tests already planned under other programs and conducts TBM TEL strike and cruise missile crash collateral effects tests. Data and models developed in this program support the development of agent defeat weapons options in the related Conventional Weapons Technology Project. [http://www.micronet.net/~lb/hc/cforce.html] ======== Re: someone's query about "police action" as a legal category for the planned strikes, versus "war"... The Korean War holds an interesting place in American history from a number of perspectives. It is the first war in which the United States fought in a "limited" mode. Technically it was not a war at all, but a police action(1) , although political definitions are misleading, and often times self-serving. (1) Police Action: A relatively localized military action undertaken by regular armed forces, without formal declaration of war. [http://ssd1.cas.pacificu.edu/as/students/stanley/thesisintro.html] ======== --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 00:31:47 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Seeking web pages re international law and war crimes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit m.haegeli@ndh.net (David M. Birdsey) wrote: >> >>In fact Cohen says the strike will be purposely limited to keep >>the threat to Iran intact (Iran is against the strike) -- i.e. > >What did Cohen actually say? I sort of doubt he put it so bluntly. > >From The Sunday Oregonian, Feb 1, 1998, page A4 (continuing front page story): In his news conference, however, Cohen repeatedly dodged questions about whether a ground invasion would be considered. He said the United States would not seek to weaken the Iraqis so much that they would cease to func- tion as a counterweight to their larger neighbor, Iran. That idea "was a factor in the Gulf War, and that still applies," he said. Story by Robin Wright and Paul Richter LA Times-Washington Post Service Kirby --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:34:13 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kelly McWethy Organization: AT&T Internet Service Subject: Re: USSR Submarine Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Kirk wrote: > Filip De Vos wrote: > > > > > Fact is that one class of ship build by the Soviets was a sort of a normal > > cruiser, with a huge deck grafted on to the rear, the ship able to deploy > > scores of anti-sub helis (Kamovs). > > > > It was defeated by the next generation of Polaris missiles, which allowed > > US ballistic subs to stand off farther from Soviet shores, giving them > > more ocean to hide in. > > > > Regulars of sci.military.naval will surely be able to supply the name of > > the vessels. > > > > Moskov class helo cruiser. Moskva-class. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:59:03 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ross Keatinge Subject: Re: U.S Defecit In-Reply-To: <002701bd2f22$1d839c80$f16532cc@trimar.intergate.bc.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Last figure I have for the "Official" (admitted to) US deficit is in = excess >of 4.5 trillion dollars. What are they spending it on? Is that the same number that Bill Clinton expects to reduce to zero this year? MSNBC has a picture of him drawing a big round zero on a whiteboard. -- Ross Keatinge rossk@ihug.co.nz Orewa, New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:19:42 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dan Vogel Subject: Re: U.S Defecit In-Reply-To: <34d74e1d.2084022@smtp.ihug.co.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Ross Keatinge wrote: >>Last figure I have for the "Official" (admitted to) US deficit is in excess >>of 4.5 trillion dollars. Mmmm. I believe its referenced as the National Debt. Budget deficits are for each fiscal year, and I don't think we have anything that high. The National Debt is the where the deficits go to be (theoretically) paid off. >What are they spending it on? I believe the National Debt is already spent money. Its just a lot of IOUs. Basically, governments run on the principle that what they spend and what they make do not have to be related. That's why there is a national debt, and why people are so shocked and suprised that the next few years they will reduce the operating debt to nill (basically, no adding to the Debt, because (taxes == operating budget). >Is that the same number that Bill Clinton expects to reduce to zero >this year? MSNBC has a picture of him drawing a big round zero on a >whiteboard. Note that I have no formal economics training. I may be wrong. But this is what I believe. They are talking about an excess this year, which is interesting, and why there is so much attention, because the question is, what do they do with it? Return it (because taxes are only supposed to pay for the government to run; there is no sense overpaying for something (except within the government, but that's just politics))? Use the excess to start reducing the National Debt (which is less popular because hey, owing lots of money hasn't affected us so far)? Use it to pay the outstanding UN fees? Nah, that's silly. Why do that? Use the money for something productive... Dan ~~~[ Dan Vogel ]@@@[ Transient Systems: A free, GTC idea-ware company ]### "When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." -R.B.Fuller [### dMv @transient.net]] ^^^ Does anyone have a reference to this quote? I took it from 'BuckyWorks', but I'd feel happier with an actual reference. Also, I need a reference for another quote: "Man is born with legs and not roots. His principle advantage as a species is mobility." This was in "Thinking Out Loud", and the WNET homepage... I'd again like a valid reference. Thanks for your help! dan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:56:42 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: It ain't geodesic, but... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Greenwich's "Millenium Dome" is a haute-architecture party dome for ringing in the year 2000: . (It would be _really_ cool to ring in the y2k with a good old fashioned geodesic dome-raising etc...) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:38:15 -0800 Reply-To: oregon@ordata.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc. Subject: Re: Domes in the Movies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This reminds me, each of the star destroyers have geodesics perched on the top of the superstructure of the ship. These are clearly visible in "The Empire Strikes Back." Also, the space ship in Mystery Science Theater 3000 is two geodesics put together. solargrl wrote: > > I just stumbled into this newsgroup. My fave movie dome is the one on > Tatooine where Luke Skywalker was raised by his aunt and uncle. > > In one scene, the aunt calls, "Luke! We're shutting down the solar > generator!" > ------ > > SolarGirl's Green Pages: > http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/7540/index.html -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:22:52 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Hassane Organization: Imdalseynne Org. Subject: UKOOA P1/90 Comments: To: GEOGRAPH@SEGATE.SUNET.SE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I would like to write a program which can converts me any ascii datafile which contains 2d or 3d missions, so I need some informations about geodetic calculation, if there is a library which exists, a program source will be ok, or the complete formulas, any info which are touching the UKOOA P1/90 or other survey standard is welcome. Hassane ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:36:45 GMT Reply-To: box2321@teleport.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "P. O. Box 2321" Organization: box2321.com Subject: Re: reality and other questions tom aagdii : > what is reality? http://www.subgenius.com/ > what is epistemology? The study of epists. -- Rev. Dr. Onan Canobite - SubGenius since 1982 - onan@subgenius.com Send One Dollar to http://www.subgenius.com/ for Eternal Salvation ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:31:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: U.S Defecit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, need to be clear: Annual Deficit = amount added to a debt each year National Debt = cummulative total owed by a sovereignty To zero a deficit is not to zero a debt, nor to be free of interest payments due thereon. More rule changes likely. Kirby --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 06:52:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Filip De Vos Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium Subject: Re: Statistic III, for the archieves. tom aagdii (aagdii@DDS.NL) wrote: : In the U.S it takes 8-10 years for new plant to be built. : the U.S spends 10 billion on department of energy. The Department of Energy's main job was building (now mostly dissasembling) nuclear weapons. : Use of energy by sector: : Industry 40% : transport 25% : residential 19% : cooking 1% : Lightning 2% ^ Without the n, please :-) : Water heating 4% : air cdonditioning : refrigeration 5% : ** : ------------------ : in the future residential will use less, industry more because of more : sonsumer goods and appliance will use less energy. : lead acid storage batteries cost 2000 times the charge of electricity. : a power grid has to supply twice as many KW in peak hours : as it does in the middle of the night. : fluctiuation is handeled by inefficient disel genrators, : or hdydropower. Actually, the fluctuation is mostly handled by building power stations with significant excess capacity, sufficient to handle the peak loads. Most of the day, the stations produce less electricity, so the exces capacity is 'wasted', only used for a couple of hours a day. That is why Bucky was such a fan of a world-wide electricity grid, because power could be 'wheeled', transported over long distances, from areas with low power consumption relative to generation capacity, to regions were the opposite occurs. According to the GENI website, electrically power can now be economically transported 4000 km using alternating current, and 7000 using direct current. This would allow coupling the North American and Asian power grids via Bering Straight. http://www.geni.org/geni97/grid.html Here there is another tie-in with Bucky's research on metals circulation: he noticed that gold is the best conductor of electricity, followed by silver. Gold is most expensive/least abundant, then silver, then copper. I wonder what the gain in using hi-tension lines with the better conductors would be. There is 6000 tons of gold laying idle under the hills of Kentucky... How much kilos per meter would a hi tension line use? The higher efficiency would perhaps increase the economical distance even more! Even if the use is viable, I will not hold my breath that the US would make the metal available for peace, rather than build billion-dollar planes... : In a crash, jet fuels stas on the fround as liquid, soaking the : clothing of victims and burn them at the ground level, : hydrogen rises very quickly, if burned flames would be high in the air. : fuel cells using dydrogen used in appolo program were 50% : efficient. : German city Stuttgart uses buses that run on Hydrogen. ..unfortunately, hydrogen is an artificial fuel, it has to be made (incurring efficiency losses) with other sources of energy. The gain in local pollution is real, however. : Alchool has little energy per gallon compared to gassoline. : Hydrogen efficiency 80% : Hydrocarpone 40% : comercial jet are now no better than old gas guzzler cars : that got eleven or so miles per gallon while carrying 4 persons. : 4 person aircraft flies fast enough to equal a highway speed : of 225 miles/h. : fuel efficient far more so - 80 seat miles/gallon. Yes I have noticed efficiency of small planes as well. I once read about the Cri-Cri, a small (two seat) aircraft, twice as fast (+200km/h) with better fuel economy than a middleclass (European) car. : the poeing 727 a from aironatical point of view accounts for : more passenger than any other aircraft does only about 1/2 as well : per mile. There are allready far more Boeing 737 in the air than the much older 727. A lot of the older planes have been converted to cargo carrying, for parcel carriers like FedEx and UPS. : automation progressing slow because of the expensivness to : programing a computer. : welddding robots work well only if presented with identical bodies : and if mechanical parts are not worn out. Modern tools can compensate for actual wear: the good produced just before the tool has to be changed is within the same specification as the first good produced with a new tool. -- Filip De Vos FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be There are plenty of ways to empty a solar system. -- John S. Lewis -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:52:11 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "P. O. Box 2321" Subject: Lego Launches New Computer Toy Products Comments: cc: Synergetics Listserv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII [If only we synergetic toy designers had this kind of financing... think of a tetrahedron-based computerized building block system... ] Reuters New Media Wednesday January 28 10:27 AM EST Lego Launches New Computer Toy Products COPENHAGEN, Denmark (Reuters) - Danish toymaker Lego, manufacturer of interlocking plastic building bricks used by children all over the world, has unveiled new computer products to bring toys into the information age. The two new products, dubbed by Lego as "a new generation of intelligent construction toys and learning tools for children" and incorporating computer technology, are a Lego Mindstorms Robotics Invention System and Lego Technic Cybermaster, Lego said in a statement released Tuesday. "These are the first products ever to give children the opportunity to build their own intelligent and interactive inventions," Lego President Kjeld Kirk Kristiansen said. The new Lego Mindstorms system allows children to build and program robotic inventions that move, act and think on their own, it said. Lego Technic, a futuristic play set for older children, combines the virtual fun of onscreen adventure with physical models that they can build and bring to life with a home computer. The company, the only European firm among the world's top 10 toymakers, reported an improved pretax profit for 1996 of $102.5 million, up from the previous year's $99.1 million, its result dented severely in recent years by stiff competition from computer games. -- _________________________________________ | | | | | | | | | www.teleport.com/ | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> | ~box2321/go.htm | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo | box2321@teleport.com ----------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:57:37 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: Hexa-Pent Dome Comments: To: Gary Strunk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01BD334A.3CC853C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BD334A.3CC853C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, I Don't have a set of the plans--wish I did. See the Hexapent patent at http://www.bfi.org/patents/3810336.html Also, see the attached 36k gif pic. **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** -----Original Message----- From: Gary Strunk To: joemoore@cruzio.com Date: Sunday, February 01, 1998 02:36 PM Subject: Hexa-Pent Dome >Dear Sir, > >I found your email address on the internet in connection with some >discussion on the Hexa-Pent Dome presented in Popular Science back in May of >'72. It seemed to indicate that you had a copy of these plans and I would be >interested in find such a copy. 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Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. Comments: RFC822 error: Mail origin cannot be determined. Comments: RFC822 error: Original tag data was -> <> From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV administrator Organization: http://21only.com/strip Subject: HOT Phone numbers Todays HOT number comes to from http://21only.com/strip Dia your Intl. access code and then 6787 7401. Get connected to some of the hootest girls in the world. LD rates onlt apply. No charge for service. Over 18 only. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:49:09 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: aagdii Subject: STATISTIC IV, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------ADC30D82735" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------ADC30D82735 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/go.py?choice=message&table=02_1998&mid=110798&cur=23&hitcount=30&context=IAAa0003X&hilit=WHOLESYS-L&search=simple&querytext=wholesys-l&mode=Quick comment; i am sending this from wholesystem archieves. mistakes: the income of black person in the civil war was 40-50 cents, and not just 5. --------------ADC30D82735 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="go.py" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="go.py" Content-Base: "http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/go .py?choice=message&table=02_1998&mi d=110798&cur=23&hitcount=30&context =IAAa0003X&hilit=WHOLESYS-L&search= simple&querytext=wholesys-l&mode=Qu ick" Reference.COM View Message
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Subject: Re: Re-done table
From: tom aagdii <aagdii@dds.nl>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:21:16 +0100 (MET)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.90.980204204749.11384B-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
Mailing List: wholesys-l@majordomo.netcom.com [i]
Word Matches: WHOLESYS-L

                                          1861         1865
 number of soldiers in Union Army of U.S  16,000      1,000,000

 war dep expendeture                     23 million    1,031,323,000 dollars

 i recall that sometime in the or befor the civil war, the collected
taxes of the whole country was 60 million or so, and the president
said it was easy to collecte it than to spend it.

here is a sign of civil war recruiting, on the sighn was written:

   30,000 Volunteere wanted
                                     total to new recruits $ 677
                                     U.s bounty veteran solders  100
                                     total to vetern soldiers  777
   county bounty cash down    $300
   State BOUNTY                 75
   U.S bounty ofr new recruits  305

------------------------------------
   $15
  hand money


  i think the payment was for a whole year. the normal pay for a black person
who worked in the army was 5 cents per day.


 in 1985 the GNP of U.S was 4 trillion dollars,
  recently the deficit was estimated to be 14 trillion-
someone from geodesic newsgroup sent this number-

i also red that Japan bouth 20 % of treasury bills after 1980,
 i dont know what is the total numbner for that.
Swiss and gGermany bought 10% of the bills. treasury bills
is one way that the american is finiancing the deficit.
if you have a comment please do, i have very limited understanding
of these things.

i always use U.S as a model, to see how we moved from horse and
agriculture society to space anc information society.
and therefor to see the facts of how wealthy we are and the
possibility for every one in the world to live in a high standard
of living uncontrolled by any one. high standard means a good life,
doesnt mean consuming or wasting, included is the ability to
travel freely anywere you want anyday of the year.

at the present:
a physcist working in romania makes 30 dollar a month.
security minister in niger makes 4000 pounds a year.
1000 dollar is the average in the bolkon countries.
i think the average in the U.S is 15,000 dollars.
if you fill a room of 5 meter cube with 100 dollar bills,
that will make 1 billion dollars.
there are 1 million american who make 100,000 dollar
or more a year, the rest are bellow that.


the numbers meant to show the general picture, it is
not a statistic listen.



i wanted to build some kind of pattren, but i dont think
i succsseded, anyway it is a bit informative.

 tagdi

p.s i started to write down refrence only recently, for now that
is the best i could do is list the titles of books, and other
refrences.
 refrence
 Sinews of War
 Geodesic news group
 english news papers
 International finance revolution


--------------ADC30D82735-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 15:30:59 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: Statistic V, In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII part one total gold mind since the Egyption times estimated to 600,000 tons. standard adaptaion G.B 1816, Germany 1871, U.S 1879. after Breton wood agreement only dollar was convertable, memebrs requited to pay 25% of their IMF quota in gold. by 1926 the wide usage of gold coins disapeared. canada largest procucer after s.africa 49.3 tons 675 ton in 1980 gold interantional reserve amounts in dollars: 1950 40 billion $ 1980 560 b 1985 246 b internatinal trade 1985 was around 2 trillion, 1.2 of it was between industrialized nation. size of major bond markets end of 1984 in dollars, i list only few US dollar 2,653 Janpanese yen 779 deutschmark 299 third befor lowest swiss franc 55.9 assets of largest banks- few 1. citicorp 142 billions $ 2. Baichi-kangyo bank 119 30 sumitom trust 58 x. Exxon is in the range of citicorp assets, when i red this a while ago, the list included Iran(1985) as having around 120 dollars of Gnp hard to believe- but this could be one of the reason that it got angry reduced income( this point is quite not sure, i mentioned becuse it came to mind in comparison- that is what minds do). the money story still have to be told, i am after it may be in a year. the classical gold standard with ration 1:1 ended by 1925-30, the dollar in 1973 was floated- but since till now we had a mix of curriency and gold. * the appolo space ship that landed on the moon was cromed with gold to protect it from the sun heat. more comment please-- ------------------------------------------------------------------- part two: " manging for the future" any one know this book, one idea is that the companies to wurvive mus wether small, medium, or large- expand internationaly. electric equipment companies of sweeden did merge with switserland- i check again- i mentioned this as a target for the connection of world electric net. Alska disconected from sibera by 57 miles i think, Vos mention 4000 miles, Fuller talked about 3000- in order to have the energies benfit- you have to have the numbers clearly shown- just like the Ford or G.M(mentioned in Critical path) programing the computer with correct numbers led them to give workers more vacation, insurance and higher wages and still be more productive. tagdi refrenc i try to list all the box next time with authors: Gold, the revolution in internaional finace ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 10:01:41 -0500 Reply-To: monkey@one.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Anderson Organization: Flying Monkey Software Subject: A technique for building inexpensive geodesic models... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit is described at http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/modeling It's kept me busy while enduring the sheer pleasure of having my faulty gall bladder diagnosed and removed over the last two weeks. Have fun... -- - Dave Anderson monkey@one.net http://w3.one.net/~monkey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 15:52:30 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: Re: housing solutiion Comments: To: Robert Conroy In-Reply-To: <199712311323_MC2-2D9E-1526@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i dont think it is important to give the standard size of doors in this country, since the laws here so far more complexed than anything i know. no place is allowed to build anything round. 40,000 miles tringle double glazed- that is the size of Holland. tagdi p.s 20 tringles =200 tringles =200 million miles earth icosa multipled by 10. this make each tringle 1 million mile double tringle. i wounder if you can imaginge if it was made of glass, in fact it is made from sillica prominintly----------- this give the feeling of earth mapping in triangles reflex is a cyclic conditioning, ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:59:23 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: what is Universe In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII what is UNiverse, why definition did fuller deal with choas! can you apply Kuhan theory to Fuller- considering fuller thinking as pardigma resistant to change. did Fuller solve Cartisian problem of mind and body. what is metaphysics what is system like instrumentalist who spent a great amounts of time thinking and making instruments of measurments or other machines. they prepared the way for more depth discovers. fuller layed out the work, what is new till now.\ and if there is not much new, one must ask why not. please jump in with answers: it seems to me that prepared answers prevent farther inquiry. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:50:47 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Conroy Subject: what is Universe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 tagdi, You wrote: <> = There is little of Fuller's work that was original. From what I ca= n see, his original practical work was comprised mostly of the Great and Lesser Circle arc manipulation of an icosahedron. From my understanding = of Nature, this is simply not how Nature works. I am aware of no Lesser Circle Arc occurances in Nature. I have an idea that even the scientist who originally jumped on the= "Bucky Ball" hypothesis are coming to the conclusion that they should mor= e correctly refer to C60 as a truncated icosahedron. This for the reason that I believe they are not sure that Fuller's 3 frequency geodesic will actual prove out in reality to match their C-60 configuration. I believe that his basic premise of starting out with the icosahedr= on as his base was a fundamental error. The icosidodecahedron is the base compound of both the icosahedron and the dodecahedron and not the other w= ay around. The two years I understand that he spent on the jitterbug equati= on seems like an exercise in futility. He is trying to make something compl= ex out of something relatively simple. I also believe that his emphasis on the oct-tet was over emphasized= along with his not giving credit to the previous work on this by Alexande= r Graham Bell. Not that the oct-tet has no importance, but it has to be pu= t in its' proper place. The oct-tet is only part of a puzzle. = With Fuller's geodesics, he simply took what looked like a most promising path but didn't realize that it was a dead end. He has served his purpose, but in the final analysis, I think he will be found to not have had a proper foundation. Bob http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:11:15 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Brant Subject: Fwd: Seminar on Economic Growth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Dear friends, Here's an online seminar I thought you might find interesting. Steve Brant ---------------------------------------------- Subject: Seminar on Economic Growth Sent: 02/05 4:32 PM Received: 02/09 12:01 PM From: Don Roper, roper@Colorado.EDU To: friends-of-sustainable-economics@csf.Colorado.EDU SEMINAR ANNOUNCEMENT: GROWTH ILLUSION with Richard Douthwaite The seminar consists of the searchable web site http://csf.colorado.edu/sustainable-economics/ plus a moderated listserv or forum in which the public is invited to participate in conversation with the author (instructions below). The seminar with Richard Douthwaite is for one week: February 18-25, 1998 The subtitle of the book is How Economic Growth has Enriched the Few, Impoverished the Many and Endangered the Planet When it first appeared in 1992, _The_Growth_Illusion_ was short-listed for what was, at the time, the world's richest literary prize, the International GPA Book Award. The author and journalist, Richard Douthwaite, from Westport, Ireland, is now working on a second edition to be published in 1999. According to Hazel Henderson, _The_Growth_Illusion_ is "A breakthrough! An honest economist willing to go public on why pursuing economic growth formulas leads societies not toward development, but to disaster. Douthwaite joins the growing ranks of researchers in other disciplines -- from chaos theory and systems dynamics to biology, ecology, anthropology and thermodynamics who for decades have reached similar conclusions." According to James Downey: A terrific book, splendidly written and meticulously researched. I have no hesitation in calling Richard Douthwaite one of the best environmental journalists in the world. For more information about the book, please see http://csf.colorado.edu/sustainable-economics/ and http://www.gn.apc.org/books/politics.htm To participate in the seminar or to listen, please send the request subscribe sustainable-economics Yourfirstname Yourlastname To: LISTSERV@csf.colorado.edu All email distributed through this listserv will be carefully moderated and the discussion will last for one week, Feb 18-25. _The_Growth_Illusion_, published by Council Oak Books, is being sold at a reduced price of $15 prior to the seminar. Please call 1-800-247-8850 to order your copy. If you have QUESTIONS about the Seminar, please write Douglas.Hinrichs@csf.colorado.edu or Don.Roper@csf.colorado.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:30:19 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robb Spoerri Subject: Re: housing solutiion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom, I am a very patient and understanding individual but I have had it with your rambling bullshit. I understand English is not your native tongue and am more than willing to cut someone a lot of slack for making the effort to communicate in a foreign language (I am trilingual myself). You have, however, gone way over the line. For one thing, familiarize yourself with your f---ing spell checker as I can't even "imaginge" what a tringle is. Yes I have made the effort to read your posts partially out of morbid curiosity and partially to try to see if you have anything meaningful to say. The curiosity now satisfied, it is clear that you have nothing to say and that your posts are the literary equivalent of public masturbation. Please if you have information to convey or a question to ask, think it out, use a spell checker and read the damn thing before you post it. You're not even consistent with your misspelling/misuse of language which shows that you have put very little effort into your posts and/or have little respect for the people who frequently waste their time trying to read this crap. I've already prepared my e-mail filters for the deluge of flames I am likely to get in response to this attack on you, but frankly it's worth it. I fully and almost unconditionally respect a person's right to freely express themselves, but as I have said you have crossed that line a long time ago. Respectfully, yet very annoyed, Robb Spoerri -------------- tom aagdii wrote: > > i dont think it is important to give the standard size of doors > in this country, since the laws here so far more complexed than > anything i know. no place is allowed to build anything round. > 40,000 miles tringle double glazed- that is the size of Holland. > > tagdi > > p.s 20 tringles =200 tringles =200 million miles earth icosa multipled > by 10. this make each tringle 1 million mile double tringle. > i wounder if you can imaginge if it was made of glass, > in fact it is made from sillica prominintly----------- > > this give the feeling of earth mapping in triangles > > reflex is a cyclic conditioning, ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:15:48 GMT+0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Venter, Dawie" Organization: Infoplan, Cape Regional Office Subject: geodesic dome article In-Reply-To: <34DF594B.5CF62376@webaccess.net> I would just like to share some news with the group concerning an article I submitted to a local do-it-yourself magazine, describing how to build a simple 2m radius garden dome. After a delay of almost 18 months, it was finally published! It is nice to walk into hardware stores as well as magazine shops all over the place and see a geodesic dome on the front cover of a magazine, for a change. I was fortunate (I hope) to also get my E-mail address published and response to the dome article is beginning to trickle in. All the respondents have also been very positive in joining a local (South African) geodesic dome interest group. The idea is to network together to share ideas, resolve building approval problems, fabricate components, log and visit geodesic dome buildings in this country and perhaps even to arrange a group tour to the US to see dome buildings etc. The whole thing is still in the embryonic stage, but there is movement. Sincerely Dawie Venter P.S. I always try to put in a plug for this news-group as well as some of the other URL's of interest. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 05:31:28 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Trimariner Subject: Re: housing solutiion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I am a very patient and understanding individual but I have had it with your >rambling bullshit >Robb Spoerri WOW, some people lead very unpleasent lives ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 13:28:31 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Curt Flowers Organization: University of Illinois Subject: Re: Domes in the Movies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm jumping in late on this thread, without knowledge of earlier posts, But,... Years ago (20?) there was a movie starring Bruce Dern and, among others, two little robots remarkable similar to R2D2. The film was called, I believe, "Silent Running". The entire gist of the depicted space ships and long voyages was the growing of food, gardens, trees, etc, in space on ships equiped with quite a few very large geodesic dome "greenhouses". Good movie. Good visionary concepts. I'd like to see it again. Any one else remember this film? Bruce sent the R2 look alike, as a caretaker, off to the stars in a jettisoned dome, and then nuked himself and his ship. Oregon Dome wrote: > > This reminds me, each of the star destroyers have geodesics perched on > the top of the superstructure of the ship. These are clearly visible in > "The Empire Strikes Back." Also, the space ship in Mystery Science > Theater 3000 is two geodesics put together. > > solargrl wrote: > > > > I just stumbled into this newsgroup. My fave movie dome is the one on > > Tatooine where Luke Skywalker was raised by his aunt and uncle. > > > > In one scene, the aunt calls, "Luke! We're shutting down the solar > > generator!" > > ------ > > > > SolarGirl's Green Pages: > > http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/7540/index.html > > -- > Thanks, > > Nathan Burke, > Oregon Dome, Inc. > > E-mail: oregon@domes.com > Web: http://www.domes.com > Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 > Fax: (541) 689-9275 > Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:52:55 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Jonathan B. Thompson" Subject: Re: A technique for building inexpensive geodesic models... Comments: To: monkey@one.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, Dave, you have constructed a bunch of spheres in a method that I have been looking at, but I have constructed one using something very similar to your method, trading one attribute for another. It, too, uses straws and pipe cleaners, only a much different ratio. For a frequency 2 sphere, this is what I used: 60 pipe cleaner sections of 3.75 inches long* 60 pipe cleaner sections of 4.25 inches long* 6 7.25 inch long straws I cut the straws into approximately 1 inch lengths. These are straws I bought from a restaurant supply house, $1.72 for 500. Each of the pipe cleaners had a 1 inch end that I bent on each end, so that I actually used 1 foot long pipe cleaners, appropriately divided to have 4 inches total vertex material (1 inch on each end). It just happened that the lengths came out to 8 inches/equilateral side + short side of the other triangle that it came to such a close number to those (closer than we could cut, or for that matter, depend upon the pipe cleaners for, anyways!). Besides, much longer would have exceeded the slenderness ratio for the pipe cleaner struts. Yes, flimsy pipe cleaner struts! Not too bad at those lengths, oddly enough. My reasoning for assembling the sphere using the pipe cleaners for struts had a couple of purposes: 1. It allowed any mistakes on exactness to be easily made up by rebending pipe cleaners. 2. It allowed a VERY tight friction/zipper like fit together of the struts at the vertexes! 3. It allowed for a very colorful sphere (this was auctioned off at a Christmas fundraiser to raise money to buy needy families stuff for Christmas. Should have seen the puzzled looks on the faces of those examining it!) The secret to the strength is that the straw vertexes pointed into the sphere, with each of the ends of the pipe cleaners stuch into the straw sections. It was a rather tight fit for the joints with 5 sides, and very tight (sometimes had to retry a couple of times) fit for those with 6 sides. The final result was a truly synergetic construction method for the joints. Pulling from vertexes on opposite sides (not pulling on a pipe cleaner straight out, by itself) you witnessed the strain being evenly distributed through the other 40 vertexes. As long as you didn't break the straws at the end vertexes, the effect of pulling on them was to cause the vertexes of the pipe cleaners to try to reflect back towards the center of the vertexes, causing it to fit even tighter by friction! That was nice to see people puzzling how that held together so well! As a note, you can't use ordinary pipe cleaners (thickness wise) for much longer struts than that before things get too flimsy. With that many at a vertex, it made for very strong friction fit joints. The person who bought it told me that her cat loves it. Jonathan B. Thompson ---------- > From: David Anderson > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: A technique for building inexpensive geodesic models... > Date: Sunday, February 8, 1998 10:01 AM > > is described at http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/modeling > > It's kept me busy while enduring the sheer pleasure of having my faulty > gall bladder diagnosed and removed over the last two weeks. > > Have fun... > > -- > > - Dave Anderson monkey@one.net http://w3.one.net/~monkey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:57:39 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: capital investment In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1991 1/5 of the total capital invested in U.S manufacturing firms is in facilites outside the U.S. american banks have similar proportion invested abroad. i send this for anyone who red Utopia or oblivion, there fuller mention how G.M or another Big company invested 3 dollars out of 4 in facilites abroad. japan will reach the same level in few years. fuller mention it as an example globalization. Fuller also used the increase of mile movment of an indivisual to show how the world becoming on. now, you may know this, but others might not and that is why the newsgroup is for. i alawys discusse large pattrens mainly, or significant events. for example i just red that boeing co knows every single airline in the world. well, i thought that is interesting it relats to using advanced technology to housing. i might be off there, but i cant help it since i needed to read 4 or 5 books to derive the last 5 statistic emails i sent. if you dont appreciate this, i dont know what would you appreciate. in the other hand if you have a better way of learning let us see how it works. tagdi p.s one can give example about ephemeralization, but i think the best is to do is to invistigat the whole area extensivly. this will make a good book, i personly think like fuller the solution is in improving engine efficency, and connecting all the electricity of the world. but engine efficency moves very slow according to what i know. refrence Managing for the future peter f. drucker page38 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:21:42 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ukali Mwendo Organization: Concentric Internet Services Subject: Re: housing solutiion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ============================================================== To send me email, remove the "12" and "3" from my address. ============================================================== Robb Spoerri snarled: >I am a very patient and understanding individual but I have had >it with your rambling bullshit. Ooh... isn't that a bit harsh, Robb? >I understand English is not your native tongue and am more than >willing to cut someone a lot of slack for making the effort to >communicate in a foreign language (I am trilingual myself). Would one of those languages be Esperanto?? Would you consider this social artifact (Esperanto) one of the resources/tools that could help us better manage Spaceship Earth? Civilly curious, Ukali ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:06:38 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "P. O. Box 2321" Subject: Re: what is Universe Comments: To: tom aagdii In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, tom aagdii wrote: > what is UNiverse, why definition Everything outside of me, me, and the division between me and everything outside of me. -- _________________________________________ | | | | | | | | | www.teleport.com/ | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> | ~box2321/go.htm | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo | box2321@teleport.com ----------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:08:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robb Spoerri Subject: Re: housing solutiion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, a bit harsh but not undeserved other than perhaps the tone, for which I do offer some apology. Have you read some of these posts. They are fraught with spelling errors. The grammar is so poor as to be largely not understandable. I can't even discern any logical flow to them. They seem mostly to be some sort of futile exercise in self-aggrandizement. I am sure Tom does not mean to cause anyone pain by submitting these posts and he is likely a well meaning individual, but I feel the need to point out that he is doing a disservice to himself as well as to others by making these incredibly careless posts. I say careless, as anyone who is even minimally conversant in English could not read these and say "Yes, that makes good sense. Someone other than myself can surely read this and understand what I am trying to say". They just don't pass muster. I encourage everyone to express themselves freely, as I stated before, I am just asking that he exercise more care and consideration in his composition. For what it's worth the other two languages that I made reference to are German and French. It has been long enough since I have spoken them, let alone written them, that I would exercise particular care in making posts to a forum who's members had either of these languages as their native tongue. No I do not speak Esperanto. I believe only about 2 million people worldwide have some degree of fluency in this language. I guess I'm not that much of a pioneer ;-) but I do admire the intent and conviction of those who are trying to spread this "universal language". Respectfully, Robb Spoerri ------------ Mwendo wrote: > > ============================================================== > To send me email, remove the "12" and "3" from my address. > ============================================================== > > Robb Spoerri snarled: > > >I am a very patient and understanding individual but I have had > >it with your rambling bullshit. > > Ooh... isn't that a bit harsh, Robb? > > >I understand English is not your native tongue and am more than > >willing to cut someone a lot of slack for making the effort to > >communicate in a foreign language (I am trilingual myself). > > Would one of those languages be Esperanto?? > > Would you consider this social artifact (Esperanto) one of the resources/tools > that could help us better manage Spaceship Earth? > > Civilly curious, > > Ukali ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:23:29 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: what is Universe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Robert Conroy wrote: > There is little of Fuller's work that was original. From what I can >see, his original practical work was comprised mostly of the Great and >Lesser Circle arc manipulation of an icosahedron. From my understanding of >Nature, this is simply not how Nature works. I am aware of no Lesser >Circle Arc occurances in Nature. You are correct that he started with full rotation geodesic networks, icosahedrally based and otherwise, and got to the domes as fractional parts of these wholes. The algorithm of sticking poles through opposite vertices, faces and mid-edges, and spinning polys to derive great circle networks is certainly very generic and I doubt original to Synergetics. However he seems to develop these ideas very coherently and convergently, making Synergetics a fine work with which to access such material. Fuller looked at the icosahedron as a 'holding pattern' in a conceptual matrix of close-packed spheres. Whether nature is helpfully described in any way by this model is a useful and still open question in my book. > I have an idea that even the scientist who originally jumped on the >"Bucky Ball" hypothesis are coming to the conclusion that they should more >correctly refer to C60 as a truncated icosahedron. Where do you get this idea? The fullerenes come in different frequencies with more and less carbons than 60 -- just like the domes. Buckminster- fullerene refers to C60 alone and of course is not identical to the 3-frequency geodesic because it's a hexapent, not an omnitriangulated structure. However, we know that Fuller was interested in hexapents as well and on the lookout for their occurance in chemistry. You might want to check my memo to Ivars Peterson at http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/virus.html on this. My conclusion is the name is very apt, maybe more so than the original namers (Kroto & Co.) realized. >This for the reason >that I believe they are not sure that Fuller's 3 frequency geodesic will >actual prove out in reality to match their C-60 configuration. Knock out some chords and it's close enough for folk music -- can be pushed and pulled into alignment with the actual carbons as you please. > I believe that his basic premise of starting out with the icosahedron >as his base was a fundamental error. The icosidodecahedron is the base >compound of both the icosahedron and the dodecahedron and not the other way >around. The two years I understand that he spent on the jitterbug equation >seems like an exercise in futility. He is trying to make something complex >out of something relatively simple. What exactly do you mean by "the jitterbug equation"? That's a transformation, a bridge, between 4-fold and 5-fold symmetric families of polys. The jitterbug morphs between the cuboctahedron and the icosahedron, but the same equation 10 ff + 2 works for both -- is what synergetics is about in some sections. This has already proved a useful finding. Also, the jitterbug has been found in nature, in the realm of metal clusters going from icosahedral to cuboctahedral conformation. But absent the phenomenon, it's conceptual useful simply as a way to tie together a lot of shapes in a single dynamic expand & contract cartoon i.e. basically it's a mathematical trans- formation, like the spin generating of arc and chordal networks from polys is a purely geometric exercise (including, but not limited to the icosahedron). > I also believe that his emphasis on the oct-tet was over emphasized >along with his not giving credit to the previous work on this by Alexander >Graham Bell. He was not aware of Bell's work at first, but found out about it courtesy of Bell's estate and the National Geographic Society and says he was as surprised -- he associated Bell with phones -- and that, yes, this is exactly the same thing. Cite: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bell.html where I display some of Bell's work and link to Fuller's comments thereon. >Not that the oct-tet has no importance, but it has to be put >in its' proper place. The oct-tet is only part of a puzzle. In Synergetics it's called the isotropic vector matrix, as well as the octet truss. It is pretty much the same thing as face-centered cubic lattice, but is not communicated by means of the cube. Lots of links to crystallography. Peter Barlow, a crystallographer, was also into these kinds of sphere packings, as was Kepler. Fuller follows a rule of calling something "his discovery" if he discovered it on his own, regardless of whether anyone else ever thought of it before. He's pretty consistent about this. Like children discover that clouds change shape, that sea water is salty -- a lot of the discoveries in Synergetics are these completely naive kinds of observations, with little or no effort made to investigate who in human history might really have been first to learn these things first. Fuller is not in the business of handing out "me first" awards -- and that makes him an enemy of many in academia, who have learned to pay extremely close attention to claims of priority, and don't take kindly to anyone claiming discoveries which pre-occur in the literature some place. But if you look in the dictionary, you'll find that "to discover" does not necessarily imply "to be the first ever": 1. To obtain knowledge of, as through observation or study. 2. To be the first to find, learn of, or observe. The American Heritage. Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright ) 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from InfoSoft International, Inc. All rights reserved. It's in the first sense that Fuller often uses the word, although sometimes in the second, and if in the second, then sometimes with a date (e.g. concentric hierarchy of whole number volumes in 1944). > With Fuller's geodesics, he simply took what looked like a most >promising path but didn't realize that it was a dead end. He has served >his purpose, but in the final analysis, I think he will be found to not >have had a proper foundation. You seem to make a lot of sweeping judgements while displaying very little evidence of having made much of a study of Synergetics to begin with. I lean towards the opposite conclusion from yours: Fuller made a promising beginning and we've amassed a lot of collateral over time to prove the relevance of his 'explorations in the geometry of thinking' (the subtitle of the work -- now on the web). In a lot of ways, what Fuller did is to organize material which, yes, we can find elsewhere in the literature. But because Synergetics is an integral work with a lot of internal consistency, it serves to connect a lot of dots which were hitherto buried in far-apart corners of the curriculum. I find Synergetics brings a lot of coherence to the picture, and am working with educators to distill useful components for broader incorporation within K-12, as well as networking to firmly anchor his magnum opus as a philosophical work worthy of study, right up there with Kant's and Hegel's, at the university level. Kirby --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:58:16 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: Litreture- just musing nothing serious. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII there are hardly any good american fiction writers. i am talking about novelest. one cant even mention one. Americans make good scientest, critics, and may be poets. in fact i think there are very few poets of any quality. i would thinkg Wallace Stevenson might be one. i still do have to look carefuly for poets, since i know only the famouse ones. Americans like to post about being a litrary society, but in fact one can hardly see anything of merit. this might have to do with lack of civilization and long endured tragdies. i almost forgot to mention that americans are good in science fiction. Tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:38:11 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: housing solutiion Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I can see your point Robb, though I tend to take a more passive stance. I want to avoid squelching anyone's honest expression, however if they want to be read and thoughtfully considered, they willl need to meet certain (very) minimal grammatical and spelling standards. If I have trouble with a post, I usually just skip it, instead of spending a lot of time trying to figure it out. Sincerely. Tony. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:24:34 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Riversong Subject: Re: what is Universe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Howdy -- I appreciate both the skeptical view and the Synergetic view. However, i would have to agree that only a cursory examination of Synergetics has been made by Mr. Conroy. The general principles which Fuller discovered, and, more importantly, published, can indeed be found in many areas of nature. Fuller found many of his principles present in spore and seed structures. He also alluded to "infinitely long and infinitely thin" lines of force which hold planets together. I believe that this is the key to understanding the structure of gravity -- and even skeptics would have to admit that nobody in our current civilization knows anything significant about that force. About the only thing i consistently see missing from Fuller's work is the consideration of dendritic or fractal types of models. This means one of two things -- either i've missed something (quite likely) or Fuller missed something (not as likely). Anybody out there have a good reference that integrates dendritic phenomena with Synergetics? At 11:23 PM 2/11/98 GMT, you wrote: >Robert Conroy wrote: > >> There is little of Fuller's work that was original. From what I can >>see, his original practical work was comprised mostly of the Great and >>Lesser Circle arc manipulation of an icosahedron. From my understanding of >>Nature, this is simply not how Nature works. I am aware of no Lesser >>Circle Arc occurances in Nature. > >You seem to make a lot of sweeping judgements while displaying very >little evidence of having made much of a study of Synergetics to >begin with. > >I lean towards the opposite conclusion from yours: Fuller made a >promising beginning and we've amassed a lot of collateral over time >to prove the relevance of his 'explorations in the geometry of >thinking' (the subtitle of the work -- now on the web). > >In a lot of ways, what Fuller did is to organize material which, >yes, we can find elsewhere in the literature. But because Synergetics >is an integral work with a lot of internal consistency, it serves >to connect a lot of dots which were hitherto buried in far-apart >corners of the curriculum. I find Synergetics brings a lot of >coherence to the picture, and am working with educators to distill >useful components for broader incorporation within K-12, as well >as networking to firmly anchor his magnum opus as a philosophical >work worthy of study, right up there with Kant's and Hegel's, at >the university level. > >Kirby > -- Michael Riversong ** P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900 Professional Harpist ** Author of ** MRiversong@earthlink.net ** http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong MUSIC SAMPLE now available on the web site QUALITY ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS - Take control of your life now. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:14:45 -0500 Reply-To: jimalderman@worldnet.att.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Jim Alderman Subject: Re: housing solutiion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to agree Tony. Even though the same thoughts that Robb expressed have also crossed my mind at times, I didn't let them entertain me for any extended period. The File sub menu on Navigator 4 keeps the Trash folder high on the list for an obvious reason. It is interesting to note, however, that Tom does occasionally generate many responses. Just look at this thread! ;-) Jim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:46:08 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: candrews@LYCOSEMAIL.COM Subject: Why They Are Looking Comments: To: geodesic@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN charset=US-ASCII geodesic@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Attention: Senior Operations, Branch and Human Resource Managers Research - Why They Are Looking Regarding a new opportunity, it takes between 50 to 75 conversations to generate one civil engineer, architectural or general contracting project manager. To generate one mechanical engineer, it often takes over 100 conversations. Why are so few looking? 96%- the vast majority, feel very satisfied where they a re. 78% do not want to move their families or are already comfortably compensated and 58% flat out w ill not entertain any offers. Here are the reasons for those who are interested candidates,; the desire to mov e back home and/or near thier families - 58%, and candidates who feel they can "mega leap" i nto more compensation or responsibility from a :flat" environment - 65%. ExecSelect offers a fresh cost effective approach to recruitiing DESIGN & CONSTR UCTION managers and leaders. It is not unusaul for us to directly contact more than 150 people to find out who is available. Call Carolyn Andrews with ExecSelect at (281) 534-3294 or (407) 695-2821 Web Site: http://www.execselect.com If you wish not to receive this report in the future please let us know. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:38:22 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: highly informative book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII MANGING or the Future Peter F.Drucker I REALY WONDER IF ANYONE IN G.N RED THIS BOOK. IF SO DO YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT THIS IS A VERY GOOD BOOK. IT IS THE TYPE I AM LOOKING FOR. IF YOU KNOW ANY OF SIMILAR QUALITY, PLEASE SEND ME THE TITLE. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:41:31 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: make money and not sense In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII how can you make sense when all the trust of society now days is to make money, they are getting mad. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:47:24 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: vision 65 In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII just curious: i think it was in that chapter in Utopia or oblivion that Fuller told his audeance that he was having very strong intution that the attendent of his lecture were special group the kind that you find in 10,000, if i recall right. in that lecture he spoke about design, and what is to be doen. i wonder if these people are still working in that direction- are the into the game. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:13:16 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: Generalist In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i thought Mr Vos was quite informative, i am not subscribed to g.w. i hope i spelled the name correctly. the kind of information that fuller harvest- some other poet used this anology also- was different from the norm. what must one do to get to this kind of infomation with less effort, since reading the normal books is quite muddling. do you have any idea, you or anyone in this list. in the past i requisted that some of you give refrence to books of this quality. how can you reconcile 30 dam desciplins each with its strange jargon. with its different way of organized thought. and somtimes befor you get to a comprhensive picture- reading a specialized book- you are exhosted from fragmented ideas. i had no help, i dindnt know what the hell fuller meant when he said learn about everything. also still, there is no easy appraoch to this large task. how can you learn anything if the mail is not full of information. i have a feeling, that one day we will understand Fuller better. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:46:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: The End of an Era Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The End of an Era editorial by Kirby Urner Feb 12, 1998 LAWCAP is mobilizing, behind a corrupt little boyking figurehead of a president, to pound a defenseless people, its artworks, its hard won accomplishments since the last war, into the dirt. The media-trained public sees this as spectacle, salivates from the bleachers at the prospect of a slaughter, while members of Congress hope the high ratings means plenty of votes for them. "The USA we have known is bankrupt and extinct" wrote one of our USA Medal of Freedom winners. How obvious. Nothing remains to salute, admire, respect. Welcome to a wasteland of barbarism. As the missiles begin to fly, our cowardly chain of command will be eliminating any last shred of the USA's former glory in this empty show of its brutal power to terrorize and kill at will. --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:46:53 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robb Spoerri Subject: Re: vision 65 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tom aagdii wrote: "just curious:" Finally something I can agree with!! .... ..... ...... ....... Robb Spoerri ---------- tom aagdii wrote: > > just curious: > i think it was in that chapter in Utopia or oblivion that Fuller > told his audeance that he was having very strong intution that > the attendent of his lecture were special group the kind that > you find in 10,000, if i recall right. > > in that lecture he spoke about design, and what is to be doen. > i wonder if these people are still working in that direction- > are the into the game. > > tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:32:59 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Conroy Subject: Re: what is Universe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Michael, You wrote: <> I have a page on 3D fractals based on a 13th alternate Platonic element which is the link between the 4 point oct-tet to the 5 point icosidodicahedral system. The fractals are not based on uniform spheres that touch, but it is based on the realistic model of overlapping spheres= that are in a 2 fold intertwined progression, and which overlap in such a= way as to have non interfering orbital systems. The URL for the fractals= is: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/3dmolecu.htm I think the URL for the 13th alternate Platonic element is: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/elements.htm Bob ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:52:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robb Spoerri Subject: because I have to MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit tom aagdii wrote: > > i thought Mr Vos was quite informative, i am not subscribed to g.w. (perhaps you have a G.Q. subscription) > i hope i spelled the name correctly. (I'm not sure, but it seems improbable.) > the kind of information that > fuller harvest- some other poet used this anology also- was different > from the norm. (We should all hope for a fuller harvest as fruit prices are getting quite high.) > what must one do to get to this kind of infomation > with less effort, since reading the normal books is quite muddling. > do you have any idea, you or anyone in this list. in the past i requisted > that some of you give refrence to books of this quality. (Might I recommend a dictionary.) > how can you reconcile 30 dam desciplins each with its strange jargon. > with its different way of organized thought. and somtimes befor you > get to a comprhensive picture- reading a specialized book- you are > exhosted from fragmented ideas. (Right on brother. I know sometimes it just takes an e-mail to do the same thing) i had no help, i didn't know what the hell fuller meant when he said > learn about everything. also still, there is no easy appraoch to > this large task. (Nonetheless you should get started soon!) > > how can you learn anything if the mail is not full of information. > i have a feeling, that one day we will understand Fuller better. (my e-mail is full of something but I don't believe it to be information though I cannot say for sure) > tagdi What comes around goes around. And as Jim pointed out you have a delete button on your keyboard for this message also ;-). Recklessly exercising my 1st amendment rights (now by popular support), Robb Spoerri ------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:57:52 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Trimariner Subject: Re: The End of an Era MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The End of an Era > editorial by Kirby Urner > Feb 12, 1998 > > Right on Kirby!!!!!! I am glad someone else recognizes the USA for what it is. Bob Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robb Spoerri Subject: Re: The End of an Era MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Absolutely!!! Much better that thousands if not tens of thousands of innocent people should die, victims of Iraq's "hard won accomplishments". Love live extreme pacifism!! Long live Saddam!! Sig Heil, Robb Spoerri ---------- Kirby Urner wrote: > > The End of an Era > editorial by Kirby Urner > Feb 12, 1998 > > LAWCAP is mobilizing, behind a corrupt little boyking > figurehead of a president, to pound a defenseless people, its > artworks, its hard won accomplishments since the last war, > into the dirt. The media-trained public sees this as spectacle, > salivates from the bleachers at the prospect of a slaughter, > while members of Congress hope the high ratings means plenty > of votes for them. > > "The USA we have known is bankrupt and extinct" wrote one of > our USA Medal of Freedom winners. How obvious. Nothing remains > to salute, admire, respect. Welcome to a wasteland of barbarism. > As the missiles begin to fly, our cowardly chain of command > will be eliminating any last shred of the USA's former glory > in this empty show of its brutal power to terrorize and kill > at will. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html > 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] > --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:06:45 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "D. J. van der Wal" Organization: GEOMETRA Subject: GPS and route calculating I am looking for a (information about) a statistical function that can calculate a smooth curve out of measured GPS covrdinates. We have placed in a truck a GPS receiver and an on-board computer. We want to know at any time the street where the truck is driving. Therefore we want to have a reference table with accurate reference points. Reference points that are laying on an ideal fitting curve. Can someone help me with a mathemiatical function or an artive Many thanks Derk van der Wal The Netherlands vdwal@tref.nl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:19:51 -0500 Reply-To: monkey@one.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Anderson Organization: Flying Monkey Software Subject: Re: GPS and route calculating MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit D. J. van der Wal wrote: > I am looking for a (information about) a statistical function that can > > calculate a smooth curve out of measured GPS covrdinates. > We have placed in a truck a GPS receiver and an on-board computer. We > want > to know at any time the street where the truck is driving. Therefore > we > want to have a reference table with accurate reference points. > Reference > points that are laying on an ideal fitting curve. Can someone help me > with > a mathemiatical function or an artive > > Many thanks > > Derk van der Wal > The Netherlands > > vdwal@tref.nl Just use a spline; that's plenty smooth. If you want to try predict the next point, see what you can do with a few simple digital filters. But it seems to me you don't quite want a curve-fitter; you need something more. The first thing you need is some logical map organization: a point-to-street, street-to-point relationship. Then you need to know a little about the problem physics: a truck can't go from one street to another unless the streets intersect. Then you need a function to find candidate points from a GPS position (what's the current GPS error? about 15 meters?): have another logical map, gps-resolution-area-to-point, so you can quickly zero-in on candidates. Then you simply run the candidates against the truck's historical location and trend and you have something cool... The curve fitting really only becomes important if your point-grid has fine enough resolution, and a high enough sampling rate; then you can do stuff like near-real-time speed checking and (possibly with a good full-network traffic feed-forward system - circa 2020 if it become's someone's priority) optimized time-distance-efficiency course re-routing. It sounds like an interesting system to build right. -- - Dave Anderson monkey@one.net http://w3.one.net/~monkey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:18:43 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Riversong Subject: Re: what is Universe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you very much for this reference. I will check it at the earliest opportunity. This may actually be a pretty significant breakthrough. In my own research, i have come to identify dendritic phenomena with the so-called "weak nuclear force", which is poorly understood but has a lot to do with how molecules are held together. I propose renaming this the "Dendritic Force". At 06:32 PM 2/12/98 -0500, you wrote: > I have a page on 3D fractals based on a 13th alternate Platonic >element which is the link between the 4 point oct-tet to the 5 point >icosidodicahedral system. The fractals are not based on uniform spheres >that touch, but it is based on the realistic model of overlapping spheres >that are in a 2 fold intertwined progression, and which overlap in such a >way as to have non interfering orbital systems. The URL for the fractals >is: >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/3dmolecu.htm >I think the URL for the 13th alternate Platonic element is: >http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/elements.htm >Bob > > -- Michael Riversong ** P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900 Professional Harpist ** Author of ** MRiversong@earthlink.net ** http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong MUSIC SAMPLE now available on the web site QUALITY ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS - Take control of your life now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:52:11 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: nicksanspam@ECE.VILL.EDU Organization: Villanova University Subject: Re: housing solutiion Robb Spoerri descends: >...Have you read some of these posts. They are fraught with spelling errors. > >I am sure Tom does not mean to cause anyone pain by submitting these posts and >he is likely a well meaning individual, but... They just don't pass muster. I suppose you don't like primitive painters either. Nick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:54:34 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "P. O. Box 2321" Subject: Re: what is Universe Comments: To: Kirby Urner In-Reply-To: <34e22aee.106712270@news.teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Kirby Urner wrote: > Fuller is not in the business of handing out "me first" awards -- > and that makes him an enemy of many in academia, who have learned > to pay extremely close attention to claims of priority, and don't > take kindly to anyone claiming discoveries which pre-occur in the > literature some place. But if you look in the dictionary, you'll > find that "to discover" does not necessarily imply "to be the > first ever": > > 1. To obtain knowledge of, as through observation or study. > 2. To be the first to find, learn of, or observe. > > The American Heritage. Dictionary of the English Language, Third > Edition copyright ) 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic > version licensed from InfoSoft International, Inc. All rights > reserved. The Model-T automobile was made with few if any original components. What was original was (1) the components being assembled (2) the method those components were assembled by. The 'unoriginal' creation of the modern automobile changed human history. -- _________________________________________ | | | | | | | | | www.teleport.com/ | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> | ~box2321/go.htm | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo | box2321@teleport.com ----------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:34:25 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The End of an Era Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sewing a Bitter Harvest an editorial by Kirby Urner Friday 13th, February, 1998 What's all this "putting our soldiers in harms way" talk I hear coming out of Congress these days? What "harm" would that be pray tell? From what I can see, there's practically zero risk of getting downed by the Iraqis, so air-defenseless is this godforsaken patch of desert. This is more the armed-to-the-teeth policeman striding into an interrogation room, the prisoner handcuffed after years of starving in solitary, ready to prove once and for all who's boss. These tearful goodbyes from the families as "brave soldiers" go off to kick the shit out of a defenseless people just don't seem all that appropriate in this instance -- more of the inevitable dog wagging formula, sentimental pablum for the hopelessly dumbed down. Saying it's all up to Saddam Hussein what happens next is a cop-out, a tremendous abdication of responsibility. Why bother having a USA president at all (very expensive) if Baghdad is really calling all the shots. Should I be proud of a "leader" who surrenders his executive responsibilities to an enemy so readily? Is this wimp-talk or what? And we hear the same lines coming from Newt -- this must be some kind of contest, with the wimpiest Republicrats favored to win. The executive branch has been hell-bent on making this a good old fashioned shoot-out media extravaganza for a long time, sent the imperial bull dog around the neighborhood to scare up a show of support, and when told "no" many times in many ways, she came home to report "yes, just oddly expressed" -- deaf doggy, dumb doggy. I'm sorry, but by my little heart is not going pitterpat with patriotic furvor as I see old glory dropping across a scene of military jets pounding "convertible" suburban facilities into a powder which may or may not contain incinerated anthrax spores amidst all that bone-ash from innocent children. And that "fermenting vat" purportedly sold to the Iraqis by the Russians, and which the imperial bulldog made some theatrically ominous comments about (but without having any independent knowledge beyond what was in the newspapers) -- was that for a deadly biochemical brew or just for making beer? And will we ever know more, or was this just another war-stoking log, timed to whip up some Cold War style fervor (can't trust those Russians ya know), and to be conveniently forgotten after the cowardly deed is done? How about if this turns out to be a false or simply unproved allegation that Treasury pledges to give the Russians 10 billion dollars in cold cash and pay all outstanding UN dues in compensation? Lets put some real "steel" in our diplomacy for a change. I think the French have the right idea with their proposal to augment the UN inspector teams with a cadre of elite scientists and other experts specifically tasked to deal with those presidential castles. Lets make each castle a website, complete with webcams refreshing every 10 seconds or so. We can even have a channel on cable showing trucks coming and going and NRO stills with zoom-ins on suspicious activities. That might drive them underground, sure -- but we'll see them burrowing. Lets make the inspection process extremely open and fun for couch potatos who want a vicarious thrill, lets prototype tight monitoring in a way that preserves some privacy, but never- theless makes it really really difficult for mad scientists to concoct any more WMDs, ever, anywhere, either on or off our planet. Then lets bring all this technology home and turn it on our own WMD stockpiles, every bit as much in need of monitoring and destruction as Iraq's. The Iraqis will be able to watch the Hanford mess on HDTV, or by surfing the web, knowing that the world is moving to a better time, and biochemical stockpiles are a serious crime against humanity wherever and whenever they occur. In such an environment, the switchboards will light up with calls from whistle blowers and informants all around the world if ever they think biochemical weapons manufacturing is going on anywhere in their midst -- because the whole of humanity will be united in this purpose. Those with courage and intelligence will feel on the same side against a common enemy: those sick and twisted types who still indulge their nightmare fantasies for real in the lab. --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:42:51 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Edward Combs Jr." Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Subject: Drivel was : Re: The End of an Era You have a very long Post here that is ALL Drivel! Saddam Yussein IS the cause of his peoples trouble. A good Leader would NOT be importing Italian Marbel for his Palace while his people starved. The people are gutless to stay under the rule of such a "Mother of all Rebates". Go peddel your tear jerker to the Arabs who chop off heads and pray for more heads while inporting laborers so that the the sons of pulk wont have to get their hands in the shit that surounds them. I think that this time we should pound they back into the 3rd Centery AD where they seem to like to live. ............. Kirby Urner wrote in message <34e49133.138261880@news.teleport.com>... > > > Sewing a Bitter Harvest > an editorial by Kirby Urner > Friday 13th, February, 1998 > > >What's all this "putting our soldiers in harms way" talk I hear >coming out of Congress these days? What "harm" would that be >pray tell? From what I can see, there's practically zero risk >of getting downed by the Iraqis, so air-defenseless is this >godforsaken patch of desert. > >This is more the armed-to-the-teeth policeman striding into an >interrogation room, the prisoner handcuffed after years of >starving in solitary, ready to prove once and for all who's >boss. These tearful goodbyes from the families as "brave >soldiers" go off to kick the shit out of a defenseless people >just don't seem all that appropriate in this instance -- >more of the inevitable dog wagging formula, sentimental >pablum for the hopelessly dumbed down. > >Saying it's all up to Saddam Hussein what happens next is a >cop-out, a tremendous abdication of responsibility. Why >bother having a USA president at all (very expensive) if >Baghdad is really calling all the shots. Should I be proud >of a "leader" who surrenders his executive responsibilities >to an enemy so readily? Is this wimp-talk or what? And >we hear the same lines coming from Newt -- this must be >some kind of contest, with the wimpiest Republicrats favored >to win. > >The executive branch has been hell-bent on making this a good >old fashioned shoot-out media extravaganza for a long time, >sent the imperial bull dog around the neighborhood to scare >up a show of support, and when told "no" many times in many >ways, she came home to report "yes, just oddly expressed" >-- deaf doggy, dumb doggy. > >I'm sorry, but by my little heart is not going pitterpat with >patriotic furvor as I see old glory dropping across a scene of >military jets pounding "convertible" suburban facilities into a >powder which may or may not contain incinerated anthrax spores >amidst all that bone-ash from innocent children. > >And that "fermenting vat" purportedly sold to the Iraqis by the >Russians, and which the imperial bulldog made some theatrically >ominous comments about (but without having any independent >knowledge beyond what was in the newspapers) -- was that for >a deadly biochemical brew or just for making beer? And will >we ever know more, or was this just another war-stoking log, >timed to whip up some Cold War style fervor (can't trust those >Russians ya know), and to be conveniently forgotten after the >cowardly deed is done? > >How about if this turns out to be a false or simply unproved >allegation that Treasury pledges to give the Russians 10 >billion dollars in cold cash and pay all outstanding UN dues >in compensation? Lets put some real "steel" in our diplomacy >for a change. > >I think the French have the right idea with their proposal to >augment the UN inspector teams with a cadre of elite scientists >and other experts specifically tasked to deal with those >presidential castles. Lets make each castle a website, >complete with webcams refreshing every 10 seconds or so. >We can even have a channel on cable showing trucks coming >and going and NRO stills with zoom-ins on suspicious >activities. That might drive them underground, sure -- but >we'll see them burrowing. > >Lets make the inspection process extremely open and fun for >couch potatos who want a vicarious thrill, lets prototype tight >monitoring in a way that preserves some privacy, but never- >theless makes it really really difficult for mad scientists >to concoct any more WMDs, ever, anywhere, either on or off >our planet. > >Then lets bring all this technology home and turn it on our own >WMD stockpiles, every bit as much in need of monitoring and >destruction as Iraq's. The Iraqis will be able to watch the >Hanford mess on HDTV, or by surfing the web, knowing that the >world is moving to a better time, and biochemical stockpiles >are a serious crime against humanity wherever and whenever >they occur. > >In such an environment, the switchboards will light up with >calls from whistle blowers and informants all around the world >if ever they think biochemical weapons manufacturing is going >on anywhere in their midst -- because the whole of humanity will >be united in this purpose. Those with courage and intelligence >will feel on the same side against a common enemy: those sick >and twisted types who still indulge their nightmare fantasies >for real in the lab. > >--------------------------------------------------------- >Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html >4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] >--------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:00:52 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robb Spoerri Subject: Re: The End of an Era MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kirby, Kirby, I could easily refute your nonsensical self-contradictory arguments one by one, but that would be a tragic waste of my time. So let me just say, it is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. You are clearly and severely delusional. I believe you are an educator of some sort. I can only hope that you are not imprinting young minds with this garbage. I will briefly address two of your points. >biochemical stockpiles are a serious crime against humanity wherever >and whenever they occur. but apparently not when held by Iraq!?!?!?!? In case you have missed this somehow, THE PROBLEM IS THAT IRAQ IS NOT LETTING US CONTINUE UNRESTRICTED INSPECTIONS. You probably have not read many headlines or turned on a television in the last few weeks. So it seems that exponentially increased surveillance is unlikely to be approved by Hussein, you imbecile!! And apparently I need to point this out to you also: sew·ing- Etymology: Middle English, from Old English sIwian; akin to Old High German siuwen to sew, Latin suere. Date: before 12th century transitive senses 1 : to unite or fasten by stitches 2 : to close or enclose by sewing intransitive senses : to practice or engage in sewing - sew·abil·i·ty /"sO-&-'bi-l&-tE/ noun - sew·able /'sO-&-b&l/ adjective So fetch that needle and thread and sew your harvest and while you're at it benefit the gene pool and "sew" your wild oats. Robb Spoerri -------------- Edward Combs Jr. wrote: > > You have a very long Post here that is ALL Drivel! Saddam Yussein IS the > cause of his peoples trouble. A good Leader would NOT be importing Italian > Marble for his Palace while his people starve. > The people are gutless to stay under the rule of such a "Mother of all > Rebates". > Go peddle your tear jerker to the Arabs who chop off heads and pray for more > heads while importing laborers so that the the sons of pulk > wont have to get their hands in the shit that surounds them. > I think that this time we should pound them back into the 3rd Century AD > where they seem to like to live. > ............. > > Kirby Urner wrote in message <34e49133.138261880@news.teleport.com>... > > > > > > Sewing a Bitter Harvest > > an editorial by Kirby Urner > > Friday 13th, February, 1998 > > > > > >What's all this "putting our soldiers in harms way" talk I hear > >coming out of Congress these days? What "harm" would that be > >pray tell? From what I can see, there's practically zero risk > >of getting downed by the Iraqis, so air-defenseless is this > >godforsaken patch of desert. > > > >This is more the armed-to-the-teeth policeman striding into an > >interrogation room, the prisoner handcuffed after years of > >starving in solitary, ready to prove once and for all who's > >boss. These tearful goodbyes from the families as "brave > >soldiers" go off to kick the shit out of a defenseless people > >just don't seem all that appropriate in this instance -- > >more of the inevitable dog wagging formula, sentimental > >pablum for the hopelessly dumbed down. > > > >Saying it's all up to Saddam Hussein what happens next is a > >cop-out, a tremendous abdication of responsibility. Why > >bother having a USA president at all (very expensive) if > >Baghdad is really calling all the shots. Should I be proud > >of a "leader" who surrenders his executive responsibilities > >to an enemy so readily? Is this wimp-talk or what? And > >we hear the same lines coming from Newt -- this must be > >some kind of contest, with the wimpiest Republicrats favored > >to win. > > > >The executive branch has been hell-bent on making this a good > >old fashioned shoot-out media extravaganza for a long time, > >sent the imperial bull dog around the neighborhood to scare > >up a show of support, and when told "no" many times in many > >ways, she came home to report "yes, just oddly expressed" > >-- deaf doggy, dumb doggy. > > > >I'm sorry, but by my little heart is not going pitterpat with > >patriotic furvor as I see old glory dropping across a scene of > >military jets pounding "convertible" suburban facilities into a > >powder which may or may not contain incinerated anthrax spores > >amidst all that bone-ash from innocent children. > > > >And that "fermenting vat" purportedly sold to the Iraqis by the > >Russians, and which the imperial bulldog made some theatrically > >ominous comments about (but without having any independent > >knowledge beyond what was in the newspapers) -- was that for > >a deadly biochemical brew or just for making beer? And will > >we ever know more, or was this just another war-stoking log, > >timed to whip up some Cold War style fervor (can't trust those > >Russians ya know), and to be conveniently forgotten after the > >cowardly deed is done? > > > >How about if this turns out to be a false or simply unproved > >allegation that Treasury pledges to give the Russians 10 > >billion dollars in cold cash and pay all outstanding UN dues > >in compensation? Lets put some real "steel" in our diplomacy > >for a change. > > > >I think the French have the right idea with their proposal to > >augment the UN inspector teams with a cadre of elite scientists > >and other experts specifically tasked to deal with those > >presidential castles. Lets make each castle a website, > >complete with webcams refreshing every 10 seconds or so. > >We can even have a channel on cable showing trucks coming > >and going and NRO stills with zoom-ins on suspicious > >activities. That might drive them underground, sure -- but > >we'll see them burrowing. > > > >Lets make the inspection process extremely open and fun for > >couch potatos who want a vicarious thrill, lets prototype tight > >monitoring in a way that preserves some privacy, but never- > >theless makes it really really difficult for mad scientists > >to concoct any more WMDs, ever, anywhere, either on or off > >our planet. > > > >Then lets bring all this technology home and turn it on our own > >WMD stockpiles, every bit as much in need of monitoring and > >destruction as Iraq's. The Iraqis will be able to watch the > >Hanford mess on HDTV, or by surfing the web, knowing that the > >world is moving to a better time, and biochemical stockpiles > >are a serious crime against humanity wherever and whenever > >they occur. > > > >In such an environment, the switchboards will light up with > >calls from whistle blowers and informants all around the world > >if ever they think biochemical weapons manufacturing is going > >on anywhere in their midst -- because the whole of humanity will > >be united in this purpose. Those with courage and intelligence > >will feel on the same side against a common enemy: those sick > >and twisted types who still indulge their nightmare fantasies > >for real in the lab. > > > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html > >4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] > >--------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:41:24 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: New Opportunities for Philosophy Teachers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [repost from archives -- Kirby responding to David] Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:18:08 -0800 X-To: synergetics-l@teleport.com From: Kirby Urner Subject: Syn-l: Reading Synergetics (was Indigs) Sender: owner-synergetics-l@teleport.com >Indeed. If this is what Fuller was talking about, he could have been more >clear about it. And what significance does this have? Why would N*N%100 be >significant? (The % operator means mod in the computer language I use). > Part of why I think we should look at this as a work in the humanities is I think Bucky sometimes deliberately constructs puzzles, buries jokes, hides or conceals or encrypts meanings. This traces back to his stance of preferring nonunderstanding readers to misunderstanding ones. A scientist of the usual sort would never deliberately encrypt work unless during wartime etc. nor engage in the kind of playful metaphorics we may find in synergetics (e.g. "slow creep"). Approaching 'Synergetics' as one more conventional math-science text book is a mistake. It's equally well something we'd find hyperlinked to an icon in some labyrinthine Borges-style website. Maybe we should put a "Beware of Dog" sticker on the outside so readers think twice about what they're reading at every turn -- a healthy suspicion, a sense that there's more going on in here than meets the eye, is not inappropriate in this context -- nor in life as a whole, I would add. This doesn't mean Synergetics is unable to give us various useful distillates in the geometry and engineering departments, even some physics (good on why spinning tops don't yield to nudges in the way our reflexes might anticipate for example, and without a lot of number crunching or algebraic abracadabra -- by design). But Synergetics is more than the sum of these parts. And what you come away with will depend a lot on what you bring to the work as a reader. As we learn in the humanities, every text is in some ways a window into the psyches of the author and the author's sources, and in some ways a mirror into our own. Bucky was a space case. He was balanced and countered in life, and will continue to be in death. Strong readers of Synergetics will study it to whatever level of depth, but without surrendering their native ability to pull in directions different from Bucky's, to spin stuff a different way (actually they have no choice in the matter, as each individual is unique -- but making no pretense of trying to be "the next Bucky" can make your misreadings of Synergetics a good deal less pathetic). A lot of what I see going on today is more reaction than resultant vectoring. We've had a lot of credit-conscious, priority-minded specialists, bitter about Fuller's ability to capitalize on stuff and achieve some fame and glory during his lifetime, furtively scanning the work for indications that it might contain something threatening to their own sense of propriety. It turns out to make no sense whatsoever (or maybe just a little) which is a relief, as that means Bucky was just crazy, even if good at domes, and we can move on, tsk tsking about his psychological problems while getting back to other more serious-minded business. What I'm looking forward to is the resultant vector stage, wherein we get more readers with less of an emotional stake in proving their own creativity and originality vis-a-vis Bucky's discoveries and inventions, because well versed in the liberal arts and used to encountering great minds of every description, many somewhat alien and difficult to read (because dead for a very long time perhaps, or members of another culture), and not having any patents pending or other ego investments that might make reading Synergetics too bitter an experience. Kirby --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:32:35 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: housing solutiion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anthony kalenak wrote: >I can see your point Robb, though I tend to take a more passive stance. >I want to avoid squelching anyone's honest expression, however if they >want to be read and thoughtfully considered, they willl need to meet >certain (very) minimal grammatical and spelling standards. > Tagdi's native language is Arabic, if that's what this is about. Fortunately, unicode is in the wings and pretty soon we'll entirely lose the ASCII bias in our email readers. Intelligent people will post directly in their native language and characterset and we'll use auto-translators such as the one available at Alta Vista to makes sense of them. >If I have trouble with a post, I usually just skip it, instead of >spending a lot of time trying to figure it out. > Me too, a lot of times (sometimes save for later) -- depends a lot on what I consider to be the track record of the author (no one said Synergetics would be an easy book, but given the source, I don't mind spending a few years with it). Plus I don't mind posting really difficult stuff of my own from time to time -- it's two way street, I realize. Kirby --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 00:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Jonathan B. Thompson" Subject: Re: The End of an Era MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As much as you've added to relevant discussions, this is not relevant. I don't even care whether you are right or wrong about these types of viewpoints. What I DO care about is spending the time to read such posts and figure out whether or not they contain anything of value in reference to this newsgroup/list. I'm not sure which is harder for me to deal with, someone well meaning who has no spelling or grammar consistency (or even close for either one, grammar is more understandable to me than careless spelling variations, but both give me a little bit of mental pain trying to read it. Reading bad and inconsistent spelling, very bad grammar being akin to someone with perfect pitch mangle an opera or other music. Especially to someone who has to fight a certqain amount of dyslexia, and as a side effect takes great pains to be correct, because reading such stuff takes a lot more time to sort out whether they said one thing or another. At least spelling should be consistent, if wrong, a spellchecker can at least make it easier for that, even if the grammar is in question, and the correct spelling isn't obvious to someone looking at the options on the list. Paraphrasing/quotes, though, have absolutely no excuse when the print is right in front of you!). I hope that in the future that these type of topics have some logical connection to the topic of this newsgroup/list, or (better) that they be posted in places where they are the topic of discussion by design and consensus. Now, to get back to something that can be related to this discussion group, I would be curious to know what software is readily available to those not able to spend much money for the construction of geodesic models using material that can be sent through a computer printer? I have the lengths needed (using Dome, thanks Rick Bono! Nifty!) I have constructed a paper geodesic sphere about 15" in diameter using Compuworks Draw 2, but it isn't very easy to use this to generate the needed triangles that are exact and accurate, and using TurboCad 2.0 sucks, because the user interface punishes you greatly for being wrong anywhere in the process, by making it very difficult to correct minor mistakes without deleting what you already have done. I haven't done a full investigation yet, but the best thing I have found so far is DeltaCAD, which can be downloaded from www.zdnet.com. Using Dome to generate data for POV-Ray makes it pretty easy to generate 3D renderings that are neat, but unfortunately it doesn't include an option to output DXF data in a 2D format for a full set of triangles that can be spit out to a CAD program and printed as is, replicated by 4, 8 or 20 to construct a sphere. My knowledge of the DXF format is extremely limited, but I would be willing (and able) to help! ---------- > From: Kirby Urner > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: The End of an Era > Date: Friday, February 13, 1998 1:34 PM > > Sewing a Bitter Harvest > an editorial by Kirby Urner > Friday 13th, February, 1998 > SNIP long irrelevant post nobody wishes to read over again. > > --------------------------------------------------------- > Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html > 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] > --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:45:30 +0744 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Grim Reaper Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services Subject: Re: The End of an Era Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In article <34e49133.138261880@news.teleport.com>, pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote: > From what I can see, there's practically zero risk > of getting downed by the Iraqis, so air-defenseless is this > godforsaken patch of desert. It's an old war trick to appear very defenseless. I think the Romans did this same strategy a few times. (Someone may have to correct or verify it was a Roman trick) If I recall it is a trap. The enemy is lured, and if at all possible in a relaxed fashion. It also lowers the enemies numbers. "Oh that little defenseless wad of soliders, we'll send half of ours elsewhere," when in fact the enemy needed more not less soldiers. > This is more the armed-to-the-teeth policeman striding into an > interrogation room, the prisoner handcuffed after years of > starving in solitary, ready to prove once and for all who's > boss. No. Saddam is very armed and very treacherous. It is more like approaching a snake pit, and attempting to move the snakes back with a lighted torch. > These tearful goodbyes from the families as "brave > soldiers" They face biological warfare contamination amongst other things. If it is the Botulinal Toxin, they could be dead by the end of 3 days. Saddam has made himself quite a supply of it. It's his new favorite since Anthrax. > Saying it's all up to Saddam Hussein what happens next is a > cop-out, Well, he could evacuate the people from strategic sites, instead of forcing them onto those very sites. > Why > bother having a USA president at all (very expensive) if > Baghdad is really calling all the shots. Saddam was given two choices to pick from that is why he "calling the shots." Each choice carries a different fate. > The executive branch has been hell-bent on making this a good > old fashioned shoot-out media extravaganza for a long time, I believe at this time the executive branch is highly allergic to the media. > sent the imperial bull dog around the neighborhood to scare > up a show of support, and when told "no" many times in many > ways, she came home to report "yes, just oddly expressed" > -- deaf doggy, dumb doggy. The Spotlight nicknamed her Madame Halfbright. (Just thought I'd toss that in as I thought it funny.) > I'm sorry, but by my little heart is not going pitterpat with > patriotic furvor as I see old glory dropping across a scene of > military jets pounding "convertible" suburban facilities into a > powder which may or may not contain incinerated anthrax spores > amidst all that bone-ash from innocent children. It depends on where those spores are hidden. If they can be reached with the penetration bomb, the surface ground will not be destroyed, and the people will not be contaminated. Once again Kirby, Saddam could evacuate the people from the sites, instead of forcing them on the sites. Tis pretty insane to be forcing civilians on the sites. Cowardly to say the least. >-- was that for > a deadly biochemical brew or just for making beer? Bio brew. > or was this just another war-stoking log, > timed to whip up some Cold War style fervor (can't trust those > Russians ya know), and to be conveniently forgotten after the > cowardly deed is done? No. Saddam has three times tried genocide with Anthrax: Kurds, Iranians and people of Kuwait. > Lets make each castle a website, > complete with webcams refreshing every 10 seconds or so. > We can even have a channel on cable showing trucks coming > and going and NRO stills with zoom-ins on suspicious > activities. That might drive them underground, sure -- but > we'll see them burrowing. Perhaps the team could include Geraldo and Montel Williams. THEY will find the TRUTH. Actually they might do a better job in speaking with Saddam about complying. They're pretty good at confronting the Irresponsible. > In such an environment, the switchboards will light up with > calls from whistle blowers and informants all around the world > if ever they think biochemical weapons manufacturing is going > on anywhere in their midst F.B.I. awaits those calls I'm sure. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:32:35 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Filip De Vos Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium Subject: Gold GENI My proposal for using Fort Knox's gold, further increasing the distance at wich electricity can be transported economically, was buried in the reply to tom agdii's post. I think it merits a separate view. As far as I know, gold has only be used as an electricity conductor in higly specialised applications (bus bar in warship, wiring in fighter jets or satellites) (An electricity supply has to be able to provide much more power than is on average used during the day. That is because theconsumption of power fluctuates over the day, from a peak in the middel of the day, to a through at night. The difference can be as much as half.) The fluctuation is mostly handled by building power stations with significant excess capacity, sufficient to handle the peak loads. Most of the day, the stations produce less electricity, so the exces capacity is 'wasted', only used for a couple of hours a day. That is why Bucky was such a fan of a world-wide electricity grid, because power could be 'wheeled', transported over long distances, from areas with low power consumption relative to generation capacity, to regions were the opposite occurs. According to the GENI website, electrically power can now be economically transported 4000 km using alternating current, and 7000 using direct current. This would allow coupling the North American and Asian power grids via Bering Straight. http://www.geni.org/geni97/grid.html Here there is another tie-in with Bucky's research on metals circulation: he noticed that gold is the best conductor of electricity, followed by silver. Gold is most expensive/least abundant, then silver, then copper. I wonder what the gain in using hi-tension lines with the better conductors would be. There is 6000 tons of gold laying idle under the hills of Kentucky... How much kilos per meter would a hi tension line use? The higher efficiency would perhaps increase the economical distance even more! Even if the use is viable, I will not hold my breath that the US would make the metal available for peace, rather than build billion-dollar planes... -- Filip De Vos FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be There are plenty of ways to empty a solar system. -- John S. Lewis -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:16:21 -0800 Reply-To: bward@metro.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bruce Ward Organization: Polymath Productions Subject: Re: Generalist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit tom aagdii wrote: >snip > > what must one do to get to this kind of infomation > with less effort, Put forth more effort. All practice, all repetition is effort. The appearance of effortlessness comes from our ignorance of what is involved. >since reading the normal books is quite muddling. Keep in Mind (as a sort of front end filter) the fact that a rare few authors tease clarity from the muddle. Most merely add to it. > do you have any idea, you or anyone in this list. in the past i >requisted that some of you give refrence to books of this quality. In another post I suggested the work of Stafford Beer. Check him out. > how can you reconcile 30 dam desciplins each with its strange jargon. Sort. Filter. Keep what works. Lose what doesn't. Self-Discipline. Response Ability. > i had no help, i dindnt know what the hell fuller meant when he said > learn about everything. also still, there is no easy appraoch to > this large task. Yeah? So? Hi there! welcome to the party… > how can you learn anything if the mail is not full of information. Nothing is "full" of information. Everything is data. The parts we (think we) don't need, we call "noise". The part that changes us is information. If it didn't change you, it wasn't information. Keep looking. > i have a feeling, that one day we will understand Fuller better. Yeah, one can hope. Oh well, carry on. ;<) laterbye buckshot muddling through in the Republic of Duhh ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:58:32 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: housing solutiion Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Unicode should really expand the Worlds participation in the Internet. I welcome it. As one who's language skills are limited to a particular Southwestern version of American English ( aside form several almost obsolete computer languages), I look forward to hearing from the other Uni-Linguals around the globe. -Tony. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:04:50 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The End of an Era Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit deceased@pacbell.net (Grim Reaper) wrote: > It's an old war trick to appear very defenseless. I think the Romans >did this same strategy a few times. (Someone may have to correct or verify >it was a Roman trick) If I recall it is a trap. The enemy is lured, and >if at all possible in a relaxed fashion. It also lowers the enemies >numbers. "Oh that little defenseless wad of soliders, we'll send half of >ours elsewhere," when in fact the enemy needed more not less soldiers. > So the Iraqis really have hundreds of warplanes deeply hidden in huge underground bunkers, ready to swarm to the surface like bees from a subterranean hive once the poor USA has been lured into attacking. I get it. Very clever! > No. Saddam is very armed and very treacherous. I bet he carries a pistol in his belt, maybe a bullwhip. Really brave to use just a torch to wave him back, I agree -- very Harrison Ford. > > They face biological warfare contamination amongst other things. If it >is the Botulinal Toxin, they could be dead by the end of 3 days. Saddam >has made himself quite a supply of it. It's his new favorite since >Anthrax. > I hear it gets sucked right into the cockpit by the jet engines. The aircraft carriers have this detox regime where the jets, with pilots still inside, get submerged for 30 minutes to get all the botulism off -- kind of like a sheep dip. > Well, he could evacuate the people from strategic sites, instead of >forcing them onto those very sites. > Good thing the US has supplied maps of what it considers "strategic". Sometimes its choices have been a big surprise, even to civilians anxious to stay out of the way. Now they can say "oh, that Dairy Queen on the corner is convertible, better get the hell out of there." > > Saddam was given two choices to pick from that is why he "calling the shots." >Each choice carries a different fate. > Yes I know, I've been following the storyline. Not a "long menu" and like that. The whole thing is very personalized to this one guy in a restaurant. Like when that movie Ghandi came out the posters blared 'Ben Kingsley IS Ghandi'. Now we read 'Saddam Hussein IS Iraq'. >> The executive branch has been hell-bent on making this a good >> old fashioned shoot-out media extravaganza for a long time, > > > I believe at this time the executive branch is highly allergic to the media. > The late 20th century presidency is one media event after another. That's just the way the game is played, now that television is omnipresent. Allergies don't make it any easier, I agree. Still, I think the spectacle of brave Harrison Ford aka the executive branch braving the nasty snake pit aka Saddam is something the spin doctors are looking forward to bringing to the movie-savvy American people. >> sent the imperial bull dog around the neighborhood to scare >> up a show of support, and when told "no" many times in many >> ways, she came home to report "yes, just oddly expressed" >> -- deaf doggy, dumb doggy. > > The Spotlight nicknamed her Madame Halfbright. (Just thought I'd toss >that in as I thought it funny.) > Heh. Sort of. > > It depends on where those spores are hidden. If they can be reached >with the penetration bomb, the surface ground will not be destroyed, and >the people will not be contaminated. > Fingers crossed then. Plus I hear those cruise missiles can be programmed to go down manholes and follow sewer lines directly to the hidden facilities. Some of them actually produce a little vacuum probe to suck the contents right out of those nasty test tubes while hovering, and return to base with samples, just like in the cartoons! > Once again Kirby, Saddam could evacuate the people from the sites, >instead of forcing them on the sites. Tis pretty insane to be forcing >civilians on >the sites. Cowardly to say the least. > Oh well. Guess the brave USA will just have to slaughter every last one of them then. Tough beans for them, huh. Gotta eat what's on the menu -- whatever Mr. Saddam chooses. >>-- was that for >> a deadly biochemical brew or just for making beer? > > Bio brew. > Ah, you have the evidence. Good. I hope some journalists are reading this and come to you for the pictures. Was this for the Muthanna plant then? For making "Novichok" cocktails per chance? > > No. Saddam has three times tried genocide with Anthrax: Kurds, >Iranians and people of Kuwait. > I'm interested in how the chain of command works over there for sure. War crimes have occured, without a doubt. There's also quite a bit of evidence that some chemical agents used against Iranians were manufactured with US complicity -- "dual use" pesticide factory, missile fitting equipment and like that. "A Marine Corps EOD (explosive ordnance disposal) specialist discovered and photographed chemical munitions with U.S. markings and lot numbers in an Iraqi bunker" writes Joe Horman, posting in this newsgroup awhile back.[1] So I gather you're sure anthrax was used in Kuwait -- lots of Gulf War Syndrome people would agree with you although others tend to blame the vaccines, pyridostigmine bromide for example. The official line still seems to be that anthrax was not thrown, but maybe got released amidst all the pulverizing -- lots of reports of chemical agent fallout by services of other countries (French, Czech) as a result of the sustained bombings.[2] "There were NO confirmed detections of ANY chemical or biological agents at ANY time during the ENTIRE conflict" was sworn testimony from Mr. Edwin Dorn, Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness, to the Senate Banking Committee on May 25, 1994 -- but that was along time ago, and already then in contradiction to what some in the Pentagon were saying.[3] > Perhaps the team could include Geraldo and Montel Williams. THEY will >find the TRUTH. Actually they might do a better job in speaking with >Saddam about complying. They're pretty good at confronting the >Irresponsible. > Good idea, I'll put them down for duty. We can have talk shows in the various castles, different one every week. Maybe Oprah can get a castle of her very own. > >> In such an environment, the switchboards will light up with >> calls from whistle blowers and informants all around the world >> if ever they think biochemical weapons manufacturing is going >> on anywhere in their midst > > F.B.I. awaits those calls I'm sure. And sometimes gets them. Dunno if they've figured out about who hit police investigator Russell Welch with anthrax in Arkansas though, nor whether Starr's team followed this line of investigation at all (probably not relevant).[4] Kirby [1] Subject: GULF WAR FACTS From: Joe Horman Date: 1996/12/11 Message-ID: <32AF4F65.5BE3@ix.netcom.com> [2] Ibid [3] Ibid [4] Subject: American Investigator: Mena Under Investigation From: Larry-Jennie Date: 1997/07/02 Message-ID: <33BB47D1.300@interaccess.com> --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:51:26 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: The End of an Era Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Synergy....... America is greater than the sum of her parts. The guiding principles (including checks & balences) are what give it it's character. We have always, since its inception, had to fight against the darker side of the humanity. Remember the Salem Witch trials, the Indian wars, the Spanish American War and Vietnam. However, without U.S. what would have happened in WWII. Would the exploration of space progressed as far as it has? Would the Internet even exist ? Dispite her faults , she is a bastion of freedom. But freedom is never safe and there are those, both inside and out, who want to take it from us. Fuller talked of the human body as being a Patterned Integrity, a dynamic system through which elements pass. I think the U.S. is the same kind of Patterned Integrity. Both good and bad pass through it. The guiding principles must be fiercly protected, regardless of those who inhabit her offices. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:24:50 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: Generalist Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Tagdi, To be a comprehensivist seems to me to be a life long effort. If Knowlege is increasing at an exponential rate, how would you ever catch up ? I don't think anyone could ever be technically competent in every field of human knowledge. However, I think you could be conversant in many of the major fields by constantly reading and studying abstracts in authoritative magazines like Nature or Scientific American. >From what I gather from Bucky's writings. a Comprehensivist looks for common principals shared by these disciplines (3rd or forth level abstractions); over-arching apriory universal laws like the Fundemental Complementarity . I think there should be a field of study in universities for Comprehensivists. Fuller said that City Planners come close to being Comprehensivists and that managers need to be. (I think I've been along this thread before (so to speak).) -Tony. _\V/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:28:24 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Domes in the Movies (Recap) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Here is a list of Domes in the Movies": Slaughterhouse Five Silent Running Logans Run Phase 5 Forbidden Planet Empire Strikes Back Mystery Science Theater 3000 Illustated Man Flashback Contact Twins Rocky Horror Picture Show (my wife's entry) TV: Northern Exposure Babylon 5 Dr. Who Hope I haven't missed any. Thanks. and nominations are still open. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:47:49 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: smd Organization: ArosNet Inc. Subject: ***IT REALLY WORKS***YOU MUST READ THIS!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A must for you to read:: A little while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like you are now, and came across an article similar to this that that said "YOU COULD MAKE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS WITHIN WEEKS WITH ONLY AN INITIAL INVESTMENT OF $6.00!!!" So I thought YEAH RIGHT, SCAM, just like most of you are thinking now!! But I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said that you send $1.00 to each of the six names and addresses stated in the article. You then place your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups (there are thousands) no catch, that was it. The main difference with this system and others is that you have a mailing list of 6 instead of 5...this means that your average gain will be app. 15x higher!!! So after thinking it over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I figured what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00 right? Unlike most I was still VERY skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. post office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal!! THEN I INVESTED MY $6.00...... WELL, GUESS WHAT...within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail!!! I was shocked! I still figured it would end soon, and did not give it a second thought. But the money just kept coming in. In my first week I had made about $20.00 to $30.00 dollars. By the end of the second week I had made well over $1000.00!! In the third week I had over $10,000 and its still coming in rapidly... It was well worth the $6.00 and the six stamps, I spent more than that on one go with the lottery!!! Let me tell you how it worls and, more importantly, why it works ...also, make sure you print a copy of this article NOW(and save it to your hard drive for use later), so you can get the information of it as and when you need it. The process is very simple and consists of three easy steps: STEP 1: get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now get 6 U.S. $1.00 bills and place them inside each of the 6 pieces of paper so the bill cannot be seen through the envelope "this helps against thievery." Next, place one paper inside each of the six envelopes and seal them...You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and the $1.00 bill. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS CREATING A SERVICE THAT IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL. NOW mail the six envelopes to the addresses below: #1 G. GARRISON 3013 MONICA DR WEST COLORADO SPRINGS, CO 80916 U.S.A. #2 R. NICKERSON 5700 BLACK LAKE BLVD. OLYMPIA, WA 98512 U.S.A. #3 Y. WONG 121 SEAMEN AVE 2D NEW YORK, NY 10034 U.S.A. #4 R.A. DORAN 42 FALCON ROAD MEIR PARK, STOKE ON TRENT ENGLAND, ST3 7FQ. #5 M. LYNCH 2 SILVER ROYD GARTH LEEDS, LS12 4UZ ENGLAND #6 J.J. POTTS 3804 MONARCH DR BOUNTIFUL, UT 84010 U.S.A. STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR name as number 6 on the list. STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as close to the original as possible. Now post your ammended article to at least 200 newsgroups (if memory is correct I think there are close to 24,000 newsgroups). All you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money YOU will make!! DON'T KNOW HOW TO POST IN THE NEWSGROUPS? WELL DO EXACTLY THE FOLLOWING: ------------------------------------------------------------ DIRECTIONS - HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS ------------------------------------------------------------ STEP 1: You do not need to retype this entire letter to do your own posting. Simply put your mouse cursor at the beginning of this letter and click and hold down your mouse button. While continuing to hold down the mouse button, drag your cursor to the bottom of this document and over to just past the last character, and release the mouse button. At this point the entire letter should be highlighted. Then, from the 'edit' pull down window at the top of the screen select 'copy.' This will copy the entire letter into the computer's memory. STEP 2: Open a blank notepad file and place the cursor at the top of the blank page, from the 'edit' pull down menu select 'paste'. This will paste a copy of the letter onto the notepad so you can add your name to the list. REMEMBER to eliminate the #1 position, move everybody up one place (re-number everyone else's positions) and add yourself in at #6... STEP 3: Save your new notepad file as .txt. If you want to do your postings in different sittings, you'll always have this file to go back to. ------------------------------------------------------------- FOR NETSCAPE USERS: ------------------------------------------------------------- step 4: Within the Netscape program, go to the pull down window entitled "window" and select 'netscape news'. Then, from the pull down menu 'options', select 'show all newsgroups'. After a few moments a list of all the newsgroups on your server will show up. Click on the news groups you desire. From within this newsgroup, click on the 'to news' button, which should be in the top left corner of the newsgroups page. This will bring up a message box. STEP 5: Fill in the subject line. This will be the header that everyone sees as they scroll throught the list of postings within a particular group. STEP 6: Highlite the entire contents of your text file (.txt) and copy them using the same technique as before. Go back to the newsgroup 'to news' posting you are creating and paste the letter into the body of your posting. STEP 7: Hit the send button in the upper left corner. You're done with your first one! CONGRATULATIONS :) ------------------------------------------------------------- INTERNET EXPLORER USERS: ------------------------------------------------------------- STEP 4: Go to nesgroups and select "post an article" STEP 5: Fill in the subject STEP 6: Same as #6 above STEP 7: Hit the "post" button ------------------------------------------------------------- THAT IS IT!! All you have to do is jump to different newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of it, it will take you about 30 seconds for each newgroup!! ***REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE!!! BUT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A MINIMUM OF 200*** THAT'S IT!!! You will begin recieving money from around the world within days. You may even want to set up a P.O. Box due to the large amount of mail you recieve. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it. **MAKE SURE THAT ALL ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT** NOW THE WHY PART: Out of the 200 postings, say I recieve only 5 replies (a very low example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons to the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me. Now, those 25 each make the minimum 200 posting with my name at #4 that will bring in $125.00. Now, those 125 each make the minimum 200 postings with my name at #3 that will bring in $625.00. OK, you get the point, but here is the interesting bit, IF 625 PEOPLE MAKE THE MINIMUM 200 POSTINGS AND AGAIN ONLY 5 PEOPLE REPLY TO EACH WITH MY NAME AT #2 THAT JUST MADE ME $3125.00, SO NOW THOSE 3125 PEOPLE MAKE THE MINIMUM 200 POSTINGS, WHO STILL ONLY GET 5 REPLYS EACH WITH ME AT #1, I WILL RECIEVE $15,625.00!!! That's with my original investment of $6.00! AMAZING!!! and as I said, 5 responses is VERY LOW! It is more usual to get 20-30!! so let's put a higher figure in and see what happens?? Let's say just 15 people respond to each person making 200 postings... if you change all the I's to you, let's see what you could (WILL) make!!! AT #6 $15.00 At #5 $225.00 At #4 $3375.00 AT #3 $50,625.00 AT #2 $759,375.00 AT #1 $11,390,625.00!!!!! When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest posting in the newsgroups and it starts all over again, "if you need any more money." The thing to remember is that thousands of people all over the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday, JUST LIKE YOU ARE NOW!! So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think so....people have said "what if the plan is played out and no one sends me any money?? SO WHAT!! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people who are joinig the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Latest estimates are around 20,000 to 50,000 new users everyday, with thousands of them joing the actual internet. Remember play fairly and honestly and this will work. Make sure you print this article out right now, also keep a list of all those who send you money. ***HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY*** You don't need to cheat the basic idea to make the MONEY!!! GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL! Play fairly and reap the huge rewards from this, which is tons of extra cash. **if you try to decieve people by posting the message with your name in the list and not sending the money to the rest of the people on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked to new a person who did that and only made $150.00, and that was after 8-10 weeks! He then sent out the 6 $1.00 bills and guess what? people added him to their lists and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10,000.00. This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the world's wealth without costing anything but our time!!! You may wish to buy mailing lists and email lists for future dollars. Please remember to declare your income. Thanks once again... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:14:42 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: HTML EMAIL TEST Comments: To: SYNERGETICS _LIST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01BD399E.54F80BC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01BD399E.54F80BC0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_003E_01BD399E.54F80BC0" ------=_NextPart_001_003E_01BD399E.54F80BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a test; this is ONLY a test! This email is in HTML format ["rich text"].=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Picture of earth from the moon **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** ------=_NextPart_001_003E_01BD399E.54F80BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a=20 test; this is ONLY a = test!
 
This=20 email is in HTML format ["rich=20 text"].=20
 
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*****************************************=20 Joe S.=20 Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
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(Can be in the same message.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe and unsubscribe.) Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:26:05 +0900 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: korling Organization: DACOM Internet Service Subject: Re: The End of an Era Kirby Urner wrote in message <34e5ccd3.219074119@news.teleport.com>... >deceased@pacbell.net (Grim Reaper) wrote: > >So the Iraqis really have hundreds of warplanes deeply hidden in >huge underground bunkers, ready to swarm to the surface like bees >from a subterranean hive once the poor USA has been lured into >attacking. Warplanes? Warplanes are not the threat. Its the troops that are the threat. Its the SAMs that are a threat. Its the AAA that is the threat. >I hear it gets sucked right into the cockpit by the jet engines. >The aircraft carriers have this detox regime where the jets, with >pilots still inside, get submerged for 30 minutes to get all the >botulism off -- kind of like a sheep dip. Once again you have shown you perpensity to be WRONG. There is no detox regime as you are trying to explain. There are various washdown procedures but the aircraft doesn't get submerged in anything. Also, what happens if the aircraft is unknowingly contaminated? You have people running around the flight deck that have no choice but to touch the aircraft. > >Good thing the US has supplied maps of what it considers "strategic". >Sometimes its choices have been a big surprise, even to civilians >anxious to stay out of the way. Now they can say "oh, that Dairy Queen >on the corner is convertible, better get the hell out of there." Any military site is stategic. Any power stations are strategic. Any fuel depots/refineries are strategic Don't have civilians at these sites, and you don't lose any civilians. If those people work for the government, they are valid targets. >Yes I know, I've been following the storyline. Not a "long menu" >and like that. The whole thing is very personalized to this one >guy in a restaurant. Like when that movie Ghandi came out the >posters blared 'Ben Kingsley IS Ghandi'. Now we read 'Saddam >Hussein IS Iraq'. The government (and its leader) IS the country when it comes to dealings with the international community. Don't like it? Too bad. >The late 20th century presidency is one media event after another. >That's just the way the game is played, now that television is >omnipresent. Allergies don't make it any easier, I agree. >Still, I think the spectacle of brave Harrison Ford aka the >executive branch braving the nasty snake pit aka Saddam is >something the spin doctors are looking forward to bringing >to the movie-savvy American people. > > >Fingers crossed then. Plus I hear those cruise missiles can be >programmed to go down manholes and follow sewer lines directly to >the hidden facilities. Some of them actually produce a little >vacuum probe to suck the contents right out of those nasty test >tubes while hovering, and return to base with samples, just like >in the cartoons! Ever hear of penetration bombs? I guess you missed that reference to PENETRATION BOMBS!!! There is a complete difference between a TLAM and a laser guided penetration bomb. >Oh well. Guess the brave USA will just have to slaughter every last >one of them then. Tough beans for them, huh. Gotta eat what's on >the menu -- whatever Mr. Saddam chooses. Hey, now you are finally catching on. >> Bio brew. >> > >Ah, you have the evidence. Good. I hope some journalists are >reading this and come to you for the pictures. Was this for the >Muthanna plant then? For making "Novichok" cocktails per chance? Well, since Islamic law forbids the drinking of alcohol, we are pretty sure it isn't Beer. Doh! > >I'm interested in how the chain of command works over there for >sure. War crimes have occured, without a doubt. There's also >quite a bit of evidence that some chemical agents used against >Iranians were manufactured with US complicity -- "dual use" >pesticide factory, missile fitting equipment and like that. >"A Marine Corps EOD (explosive ordnance disposal) specialist >discovered and photographed chemical munitions with U.S. markings >and lot numbers in an Iraqi bunker" writes Joe Horman, posting >in this newsgroup awhile back.[1] BULLSHIT! Never happened. There may have been munitions with U.S. markings, but the chemical warheads are only put on the rounds when preparing to fire. Do you know anything about weapons or the military? > >So I gather you're sure anthrax was used in Kuwait -- lots of >Gulf War Syndrome people would agree with you although others >tend to blame the vaccines, pyridostigmine bromide for example. That isn't used until after nerve agent are detected. It wasn't used by a majority of the people suffering from GWS. I personally know one person suffering from GWS and he never took it. > >The official line still seems to be that anthrax was not thrown, >but maybe got released amidst all the pulverizing -- lots of >reports of chemical agent fallout by services of other countries >(French, Czech) as a result of the sustained bombings.[2] Actually, the Czechs claim that Iraq used them as a weapon. > >"There were NO confirmed detections of ANY chemical or biological >agents at ANY time during the ENTIRE conflict" was sworn testimony >from Mr. Edwin Dorn, Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and >Readiness, to the Senate Banking Committee on May 25, 1994 -- but >that was along time ago, and already then in contradiction to what >some in the Pentagon were saying.[3] There were confirmed detectons, but not in the amounts that is considered "permanently harmful". ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:23:58 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Scot White Organization: WebTV Subscriber Subject: Re: The End of an Era Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Kirby, I am an avid reader and infrequent respondant, I enjoy most of your stuff. However, I am compelled to say there are more appropriate forums for political viewpoints than this one. Scot White email: rswhite@webtv.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:56:09 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: Blue collar workers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the blue collar workers in ten years time will have the same faith as the farmers, at the present they constitute 1/5 of the working popluation. i think the fraction is even less. ------------ i had a dream two months ago, which i have interpeted to mean that the war is not going to happen. in the dream i recall that an american squized a can of foam which it spread about 5 to 10 meter. ---------- i had two mail account one at hotmail, the other at digital city. i tried the spelling checker in hotmail, and then when i sent the mail, it didnt go through. digital city doesnt have spelling checker. i also thought that you have to do somthing to get the spelling checker which i didnt know how. i try again with hotmail, this the third time. it doesnt sends to geodesic newsgroup. i am very very bad when it comes to computers and software, but there is more to the story. --------------- if you have an email account does that mean that you also have access to the internet, or how does it work in the states. the reason i use the archieves is because if i dont use the mail for one week somthing may go rong and it fills the storage space. then many things go rong, i had the problem two times with synergetic news group. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 04:24:41 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Trimariner Subject: Re: HTML EMAIL TEST MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01BD39C9.A2E3F4E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BD39C9.A2E3F4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that is an effective Email ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BD39C9.A2E3F4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now that is an effective=20 Email
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01BD39C9.A2E3F4E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 15:53:06 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: Drival:Re: An End of Ira In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i like to tell the truth, after living in the states for 10 years so. i am neutral, but i know how i felt when i lived in america and now how i feel in europe and how i felt living in Libya. you never hear bad news about civilians in normal times in the arab countries, in few cases they are there for somthing. while observe the wesetren disrespect for forginers. i dont like to live in the arabic countries for my own reasons- these countries has not resolved a lot of its complex problems just like the states. i believe in the world. -- to Edward Combs, just for your information- the arabs at this moment are supplying you with 4 million barrel of oil a day. and been supplying the west since the begining of the century. oil is the what makes america go around-so in fact you are in the hands of the arabs in the future. most of the arab problems is coming from the fact that america is always getting there when it knows it can get somthing for nothing. even Rosevolt was there. it is not free trade, it is the top masters knowing all the tricks- 1% of americans own 99% of the wealth. how much do you make? 20,000 a year, its'n much is it, when it is normal for a student to have to borrow that much a year much to go to a universtiy. why if love your people, edcuation should be free, just like medical care. so, get busy inside instead of abroad. someone told me that Georg Push had a lot of stocks in Kwiat oil, that is why he didnt like it when it was burning. the reason that an arab burns somthing in general is because the dont worship money not because of hatred as in your case. the U.S doesnt have much oil reserve anymore. and you know where the rest of the world reserve is located- so come after it if you want it( the U.S have 10 years of reserve- if consuming 6-8 from home resources- in contrast to the more than 200 billion in the Golf) the arabs are very generious people, beyond what you think. they've been helping the west and forgetting about their people. there is also the stratagy the U.S uses of divide and concore. the arabs are the only people who know exactly what America wants, one thing is for sure inspite of lack of knowldge the arabs know what is your intention when you come to dig for oil. oh, yes i forgot also the red indians to some extent know. (camels are one of the most complex designs of nature), and shepreds are the most honest of men. america is the only country which have air bases all over the world, befor 1975 there was one in Tripoli. for 10 years or so americans lived like kings in libya for your information. america likes to send secret experties around the world- lovely from a society that prices itself for freedom and democracy-police technology. read the U.S information agency manual- constant manipulation of public opinoin. the basic culture triats of the arabs is honesty. befor i go on, you have to remember that i am talking about the American goverment and not the people. american people are divided about these issues. i think there are 7 million people in mental hospitals and prisons in the U.S. million or so homless. the numbers might not be that high, tell me then why america prags about its citizen abroad when they have no respect for them at home. no where in the arab world you have that much homless, even though they live in poverty or low standards caused by the Westren lack of respect for anyone. you complain about the arabs, did you forget Vitnam, or Horishima- the capability of voilence is inside every man's heart and you know it. if you are in any of this country you will do the same. it has somthing to do with the west stealing all the resources. in the case of algeria the french manipulating and sucking their blood for years. where there is a poverty you will always get unrest. the arabs been giving the black gold to the West and starving their people- if you are realy interested in knowing the truth, you should do some research. i heard chomsky wrote informative books about the dirty hands of the american goverment. i am also going to see if i can get some good information about the systematic policy of U.S which is based on ripping off everyone. why doesnt america get rid of its stock of distroctive weapons. by the way there are quite a % of emplyee in the arsinals who are alcholic or on drugs. so, dont react like i know how you going to, search the subject out. ----- when i lived in the states i had an american friend who lived homless for 16 years or more. why because in the american mentality mercy means nothing. at the present the same thing is happining next to Hollyowd- young people live in the street while the big freedom-fighters-the actors-try to get more oscar prizes. so while you prag about americans outside, you have no pity on the one inside-i know your game. in the arab countires forginer are respected more than the nationals, while you know how forginer are treated in eruope and america. it doesnt take a smarty to see that. one could say that america brought fundimantilsm into the arab world, keep squizing the population and that is what you get-i hope you are getting more peranoid, it is good for you. i think you should wake up a little, and dont be like the people who watch Jerry show. of course i forget that americans always know better if you know what i mean- somthing to do with the master sendrom. good day tagdi p.s dont underestimat the intlegence of the arabs, some of their poetry is 10 times more difficult than shakspear. the divine commady was written in arabic in more difficult languge than Dante later wrote it. Parogatory: CI for better waters heading with the wind my ship of genious cheks her sail and leaves that ocean of despear behind dante ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:06:47 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: tom aagdii Subject: hotmail doesnt work In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi, hotmail have good spelling checker. i tried to send mail form hotmail, it didnt work. do you know what can i do that i can send mail. tagdi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:54:31 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: michael somerville Subject: not here! In-Reply-To: <6c61lu$29m$1@newsd-143.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I concur!! Mike Somerville, new member. At 12:23 AM 2/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >Kirby, I am an avid reader and infrequent respondant, I enjoy most of >your stuff. However, I am compelled to say there are more appropriate >forums for political viewpoints than this one. > >Scot White >email: rswhite@webtv.net > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:57:48 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: michael somerville Subject: Dome houses...duh! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've signed up for this thing for less that twelve hours and I already feel like I'm on a listserv for Oliver Stone -wanna-be-playwrites. 'c-mon guys/gals. mike somerville At 03:53 PM 2/15/98 +0100, you wrote: >i like to tell the truth, after living in the states for 10 years >so. i am neutral, but i know how i felt when i lived in > america and now how i feel in europe and how i felt living >in Libya. > >you never hear bad news about civilians in normal times >in the arab countries, in few cases they are there for somthing. >while observe the wesetren disrespect for forginers. > >i dont like to live in the arabic countries for my own >reasons- these countries has not resolved a lot of its complex >problems just like the states. i believe in the world. > >-- >to Edward Combs, > >just for your information- the arabs at this moment are supplying >you with 4 million barrel of oil a day. and been supplying the west >since the begining of the century. oil is the what makes america >go around-so in fact you are in the hands of the arabs in the >future. > > most of the arab problems >is coming from the fact that america is always getting >there when it knows it can get somthing for nothing. even >Rosevolt was there. >it is not free trade, it is the top masters knowing all >the tricks- 1% of americans own 99% of the wealth. > >how much do you make? 20,000 a year, its'n much is it, when >it is normal for a student to have to borrow that much a year much > to go to a universtiy. why if love your people, edcuation >should be free, just like medical care. so, get busy >inside instead of abroad. > >someone told me that Georg Push had a lot of stocks in Kwiat >oil, that is why he didnt like it when it was burning. >the reason that an arab burns somthing in general is >because the dont worship money not because of hatred as >in your case. > > >the U.S doesnt have much oil reserve anymore. and you know where >the rest of the world reserve is located- so come after it >if you want it( the U.S have 10 years of reserve- if consuming 6-8 >from home resources- in contrast to the more than 200 billion >in the Golf) > >the arabs are very generious people, beyond what you think. >they've been helping the west and forgetting about their people. >there is also the stratagy the U.S uses of divide and concore. > >the arabs are the only people who know exactly what America >wants, one thing is for sure inspite of lack of knowldge >the arabs know what is your intention when you come to >dig for oil. oh, yes i forgot also the red indians to >some extent know. (camels are one of the most complex >designs of nature), and shepreds are the most honest of >men. > >america is the only country which have air bases all over the >world, befor 1975 there was one in Tripoli. for 10 years or so > americans lived like kings in libya for your information. > >america likes to send secret experties around the world- >lovely from a society that prices itself for freedom and >democracy-police technology. read the U.S information >agency manual- constant manipulation of public opinoin. >the basic culture triats of the arabs is honesty. > >befor i go on, you have to remember that i am talking about >the American goverment and not the people. american people >are divided about these issues. > >i think there are 7 million people in mental hospitals >and prisons in the U.S. million or so homless. the numbers >might not be that high, tell me then why america prags about >its citizen abroad when they have no respect for them >at home. > >no where in the arab world you have that much homless, >even though they live in poverty or low standards caused >by the Westren lack of respect for anyone. > >you complain about the arabs, did you forget Vitnam, or >Horishima- the capability of voilence is inside every >man's heart and you know it. >if you are in any of this country you will do the same. >it has somthing to do with the west stealing all the resources. >in the case of algeria the french manipulating and sucking >their blood for years. where there is a poverty you will always get >unrest. the arabs been giving the black gold to the West >and starving their people- > >if you are realy interested in knowing the truth, you should >do some research. i heard chomsky wrote informative books >about the dirty hands of the american goverment. >i am also going to see if i can get some good information >about the systematic policy of U.S which is based on ripping >off everyone. > >why doesnt america get rid of its stock of distroctive weapons. >by the way there are quite a % of emplyee in the arsinals who >are alcholic or on drugs. >so, dont react like i know how you going to, search the subject >out. > > > ----- > when i lived in the states i had an american friend who lived >homless for 16 years or more. why because in the american mentality >mercy means nothing. at the present the same thing is happining >next to Hollyowd- young people live in the street while the >big freedom-fighters-the actors-try to get more oscar prizes. >so while you prag about americans outside, you have no pity >on the one inside-i know your game. > >in the arab countires forginer are respected more than the >nationals, while you know how forginer are treated in >eruope and america. it doesnt take a smarty to see that. > >one could say that america brought fundimantilsm into >the arab world, keep squizing the population and that is >what you get-i hope you are getting more peranoid, it is >good for you. i think you should wake up a little, and >dont be like the people who watch Jerry show. of course >i forget that americans always know better if you know what >i mean- somthing to do with the master sendrom. > >good day > > tagdi > >p.s dont underestimat the intlegence of the arabs, >some of their poetry is 10 times more difficult than shakspear. >the divine commady was written in arabic in more difficult languge >than Dante later wrote it. > >Parogatory: CI > for better waters heading with the wind my ship of genious > cheks her sail > and leaves that ocean of despear behind > > dante > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:12:08 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: hotmail doesnt work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SOMEBODY HELP TAG WITH HIS SPELLCHECKER! **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** -----Original Message----- From: tom aagdii Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 08:18 AM Subject: hotmail doesnt work >hi, >hotmail have good spelling checker. > i tried to send mail form hotmail, it didnt work. >do you know what can i do that i can send mail. > > tagdi > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:13:01 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Joe S. Moore" Subject: Re: not here! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me too! **************************************** * Joe S. Moore * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ **************************************** -----Original Message----- From: michael somerville Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 09:58 AM Subject: not here! >I concur!! >Mike Somerville, new member. > >At 12:23 AM 2/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >>Kirby, I am an avid reader and infrequent respondant, I enjoy most of >>your stuff. However, I am compelled to say there are more appropriate >>forums for political viewpoints than this one. >> >>Scot White >>email: rswhite@webtv.net >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 00:34:32 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "P. O. Box 2321" Subject: Fuller & Conflict Resolution Comments: cc: syn-l@teleport.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Please add to this collection of statements by and about Buckminster Fuller on the subject of conflict resolution. "Bucky was expounding geometry before some sharp kids from the streets when one of them wanted tok now what all this had to do with the rats in his bedroom. 'Shut up,' cut in a sharper voice, 'he knows what he's talking about.' So the Rat and the Synergetic View were never squared off. How would he have answered, Bucky was asksed later. 'I wouldn't have,' he replied. 'I never argue.' "To argue is to get bogged down in special cases, where minds cannot move but can only Indian-wrestle. Rats, nevertheless, are confrontable, and may teach us that the problem is not the rat but the bedroom, a housing problem which means a design problem." - Hugh Kenner, BUCKY, page 181-182 [I remember several references on not becoming involved in conflicts but rather creating artifacts that render the conflict obsolete, but I'll leave them for other scholars to post.] -- _________________________________________ | | | | | | | | | | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> | | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo | ----------------------------------------- http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:13:09 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed aagdii Comments: To: aagdii@dds.nl Content-Type: text/plain trying different way, i send this to my other email account and then send it from there. Holland works like this-pavlo country. tagdi ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:41:13 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: steven@MKI.COM Organization: Tom In Subject: $1000/week Donating Sperm visit http://206.67.50.45/ If you are a healthy male between the ages of 18-45 and are seriously interested in participating and earning up to $1000 weekly through various sperm donor programs in the following US states and Canadian Provinces, visit http://206.67.50.45/ USA: Alabama Kentucky North Dakota Louisiana Ohio Arizona Maine Oklahoma Arkansas Maryland Oregon California Massachusetts Pennsylvania Colorado Michigan Rhode Island Connecticut Minnesota South Carolina Delaware Mississippi South Dakota District of Columbia Missouri Tennessee Florida Montana Texas Georgia Nebraska Utah Hawaii Nevada Vermont Idaho New Hampshire Virginia Illinois New Jersey Washington Indiana New Mexico West Virginia Iowa New York Wisconsin Kansas North Carolina Wyoming Canada: Alberta British Columbia Manitoba New Brunswick Quebec Northwest Territories Nova Scotia Ontario - Yukon go to visit http://206.67.50.45 If you are a healthy male between the ages of 18-45 and are seriously interested in participating and earning up to $1000 weekly through various sperm donor programs in the following US states and Canadian Provinces, visit http://206.67.50.45/ USA: Alabama Kentucky North Dakota Louisiana Ohio Arizona Maine Oklahoma Arkansas Maryland Oregon California Massachusetts Pennsylvania Colorado Michigan Rhode Island Connecticut Minnesota South Carolina Delaware Mississippi South Dakota District of Columbia Missouri Tennessee Florida Montana Texas Georgia Nebraska Utah Hawaii Nevada Vermont Idaho New Hampshire Virginia Illinois New Jersey Washington Indiana New Mexico West Virginia Iowa New York Wisconsin Kansas North Carolina Wyoming Canada: Alberta British Columbia Manitoba New Brunswick Quebec Northwest Territories Nova Scotia Ontario - Yukon go to http://206.67.50.45/ =<><>===>==>><==<=<< ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 03:37:08 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed aagdii Comments: To: aagdii@dds.nl Content-Type: text/plain Hello, i have found the problem, in my digital city account i wrote the address starting "List for the discussion-" etc., otherwise it would not send the mail, in hotmail i have to leave that part of the address out otherwise it would not deliver it either. this will help me to send less mail, i hope, but it would not correct my grammar nor my logic. i started to read a little of grammar two weeks ago, it is all silly but life is so. tagdi ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:54:53 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lisa Kaneen Subject: remove me from list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit remove Lisa Kaneen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:07:54 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed aagdii Subject: blue collar workers Content-Type: text/plain >blue collar constitute 1/5 of the working force, in 1950 they >constitute 1/2, in 10 years will have the same fraction >as the farmers which less than 2 percent. > >the invisible laws that effect how we conduct our life. >i quote from Peter Drucker: > >acquiring wheels > the modern big city is the creation of the 19 century's >ability to move people. everyone in dicken's london walked >to work except the owners, who lived over their shops or >their countinghouses. but then, beginning in mid-century, >people began to acquire wheels-the railroad first, then the >omnibus and the streetcar(horse-drawn, of course, for many >decade), the subway and the elevated train, the automobile, >bicycle. suddenly large masses of people could move over great >distances to where the work was. and the elevator added vertical >mobility. it was this ability to move people that, more >than anything els, made possible large organization, business, >hospitals, government agencies, and universities. > >by 1914, every single one of the means to move people into >an office centered large city-and to enable the office worker >to live outside it-had been developed. but they did not have >their full impact until after WWII. until then only >two cities had skyscrapers-new york and chicago. now every >mid-sized city worldwide boasts a "skyline". and even >in mid-sized cities people commune. > >this trend has clearly reached its end, .... > >i avoided capital letters, because i heard that small letters >are informal and best to use in e-mail. > > tagdi > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 04:10:24 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed aagdii Subject: thinking Content-Type: text/plain what is thinking? tagdi ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:56:14 -0800 Reply-To: bward@metro.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bruce Ward Organization: Polymath Productions Subject: Re: Dome houses...duh! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit michael somerville wrote: > > I've signed up for this thing for less that twelve hours and I already feel > like > I'm on a listserv for Oliver Stone -wanna-be-playwrites. > 'c-mon guys/gals. > > While it may be a stretch for newbies with commercially conditioned attention span deficit, the Discussion of the Works of R. Buckminster Fuller includes a vastly greater range of experiences than >Dome houses… Duh!< Fuller's primary objective was to help figure out how to make the world work for all of Humanity. As Kirby points out (in sooo many words) ;<), politicians, regardless of their country of origin, are more interested in getting what they can at the expense of others. Their education, training and rewards systems are directly opposed to the concept of the world being a wealthy place with adequate life support for all. The comprehensive overview is as foreign to them as it is to the "normal" (god help us!) semi-trained (NOT educated) specialist citizen-consumer. One could, if one wanted, choose to realize that the subject at hand is larger than originally perceived. Or we can complain that there's too much noise in the data… The larger the island of knowledge, the longer the shoreline of wonder. - Ralph W. Sockman Don't bite my finger, look where it's pointing. - Warren S. McCulloch "So, Are you optimistic or pessimistic about the future of Humanity?" -"Oh, I'm an optimist. Definitely." "Then why are you frowning?" - "Because I'm not sure my optimism is justified." buckshot muddling through in the Republic of Duhh ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:13:54 -0800 Reply-To: bward@metro.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bruce Ward Organization: Polymath Productions Subject: Re: thinking MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mohamed aagdii wrote: > > what is thinking? According to Bucky: Thinking is the orderly dismissal of irrelevancy. 1. Begin with Universe. 2. Conceive/become aware of the Problem. 3. Dismiss those portions of Universe which do not apply. 4. Take the Decision. (the only part of Universe left) 5. Change. IN(wardly re)FORM yourself 6. repeat good luck laterbye :<) buckshot muddling through in the Republic of Duhh ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:56:31 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: prkosuth Subject: Re: thinking Comments: To: bward@metro.net In-Reply-To: <34E8643B.D38@metro.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom and Bruce wrote: ---------- > mohamed aagdii wrote: > > > > what is thinking? > > According to Bucky: > > Thinking is the orderly dismissal of irrelevancy. > > 1. Begin with Universe. > 2. Conceive/become aware of the Problem. > 3. Dismiss those portions of Universe which do not apply. This is a part of thinking / problem solving that boggles me up --- how do we really know what is applicable to situation and what is not ? What is a good decision criterion for "dismissing" that which does not apply > 4. Take the Decision. (the only part of Universe left) > 5. Change. IN(wardly re)FORM yourself This is nice. I recently facilitated an inservice at school where I took the notion that we were to have a meeting of action. That people were to publically state what action they were willing to take rather than to couch it as what action we as a school would take. > 6. repeat > > good luck laterbye :<) > > buckshot muddling through in the Republic of Duhh ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:26:49 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Brent A. Verrill" Subject: Gulf War - Take 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello all, While I agree with many of you voicing opposition to the discussion of this topic. I believe that there is a demonstrable Bucky principle here. I don't recall the exact source, probably _Crititcal Path_, but Bucky writes about the roots of war and conflict. He understood that war comes from one arbitrary group of humans' perception that another arbitrary group has something unique and valuable. War is the result of trying to obtain that unique something. Iraq has oil and lots of it. The entire worlds industrial complex runs on oil which gets converted into many different forms: electricity, various chemicals including pesticides and fertilizers, heat to drive all sorts of engines. The USA is one of the worlds largest, if not the largest, industrial producers, and is the worlds largest consumer as a percentage of world population. It is safe to say that our lifestyle would be affected the most by any bottleneck in oil production or distribution. Saddam Hussein's power over the world is based on the oil reserves his country sits over. He also has quite a few nasty weapons that he could hurl at us and his neighbors. He would not have been able to obtain such weapons without the worlds dependance on his country's oil. I therefore humbly suggest that the best course of action for the USA and the rest of the world to erode Saddam Hussein's power over us is to become less dependant on his oil. This is obviously not a short term solution, but then I have come to understand that the best solutions rarely are. If the USA had started a genuine energy policy at the end of the original Gulf War, we would be a long way towards getting out from under Hussein's thumb and, I contend, even more prosperous than we currently are. The rest of the world would likely follow our lead. World around oil consumption would go down and OPEC and non-OPEC oil producing nations would have to find another racket. Yes this is a simplistic presentation of a complex problem. Large problems demand a comprehensive view of the issues. I'm sure my solution is ignoring a key issue or two that I'm sure some of you will point out to me. But regardless of short term consequences that would inevitably arise, I feel strongly that energy efficiency is THE solution to this and many other global problems. Brent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:25:54 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robb Spoerri Subject: Re: blue collar workers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Tom (Mohamed), I'm as willing to offer praise as I am criticism. Wow! What an improvement the last two posts have been. I had absolutely no problems reading either of them. Congratulations and thanks for the effort. As far as capital letters are concerned do what you wish, but it is generally preferred that one begin a sentence with a capital letter and capitals should also be used to start proper nouns (i.e. names, cities, days of the week, etc.) regardless of if it is formal or informal communication. Thank you, Robb Spoerri ------------ mohamed aagdii wrote: > > >blue collar constitute 1/5 of the working force, in 1950 they > >constitute 1/2, in 10 years will have the same fraction > >as the farmers which less than 2 percent. > > > >the invisible laws that effect how we conduct our life. > >i quote from Peter Drucker: > > > >acquiring wheels > > the modern big city is the creation of the 19 century's > >ability to move people. everyone in dicken's london walked > >to work except the owners, who lived over their shops or > >their countinghouses. but then, beginning in mid-century, > >people began to acquire wheels-the railroad first, then the > >omnibus and the streetcar(horse-drawn, of course, for many > >decade), the subway and the elevated train, the automobile, > >bicycle. suddenly large masses of people could move over great > >distances to where the work was. and the elevator added vertical > >mobility. it was this ability to move people that, more > >than anything els, made possible large organization, business, > >hospitals, government agencies, and universities. > > > >by 1914, every single one of the means to move people into > >an office centered large city-and to enable the office worker > >to live outside it-had been developed. but they did not have > >their full impact until after WWII. until then only > >two cities had skyscrapers-new york and chicago. now every > >mid-sized city worldwide boasts a "skyline". and even > >in mid-sized cities people commune. > > > >this trend has clearly reached its end, .... > > > >i avoided capital letters, because i heard that small letters > >are informal and best to use in e-mail. > > > > tagdi > > > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:02:52 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robb Spoerri Subject: Re: Gulf War - Take 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would have to agree with the points that you make. Unfortunately, you can take a horse to water but...... Maybe the horse has to be really thirsty again? Robb Spoerri --------------- Brent A. Verrill wrote: > > Hello all, > > While I agree with many of you voicing opposition to the discussion of this > topic. I believe that there is a demonstrable Bucky principle here. I > don't recall the exact source, probably _Crititcal Path_, but Bucky writes > about the roots of war and conflict. He understood that war comes from one > arbitrary group of humans' perception that another arbitrary group has > something unique and valuable. War is the result of trying to obtain that > unique something. > > Iraq has oil and lots of it. The entire worlds industrial complex runs on > oil which gets converted into many different forms: electricity, various > chemicals including pesticides and fertilizers, heat to drive all sorts of > engines. The USA is one of the worlds largest, if not the largest, > industrial producers, and is the worlds largest consumer as a percentage of > world population. It is safe to say that our lifestyle would be affected > the most by any bottleneck in oil production or distribution. > > Saddam Hussein's power over the world is based on the oil reserves his > country sits over. He also has quite a few nasty weapons that he could > hurl at us and his neighbors. He would not have been able to obtain such > weapons without the worlds dependance on his country's oil. I therefore > humbly suggest that the best course of action for the USA and the rest of > the world to erode Saddam Hussein's power over us is to become less > dependant on his oil. This is obviously not a short term solution, but > then I have come to understand that the best solutions rarely are. > > If the USA had started a genuine energy policy at the end of the original > Gulf War, we would be a long way towards getting out from under Hussein's > thumb and, I contend, even more prosperous than we currently are. The rest > of the world would likely follow our lead. World around oil consumption > would go down and OPEC and non-OPEC oil producing nations would have to > find another racket. > > Yes this is a simplistic presentation of a complex problem. Large problems > demand a comprehensive view of the issues. I'm sure my solution is > ignoring a key issue or two that I'm sure some of you will point out to me. > But regardless of short term consequences that would inevitably arise, I > feel strongly that energy efficiency is THE solution to this and many other > global problems. > > Brent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:53:25 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: michael somerville Subject: Re: $1000/week Donating Sperm In-Reply-To: <150298235433@mki.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH BUCKY AND/OR DOME HOUSES ?!?!?!?!? THIS 'SERV IS A JOKE! Mike Somerville At 04:41 AM 2/16/98 GMT, you wrote: >visit http://206.67.50.45/ >If you are a healthy male between the ages of 18-45 and are seriously >interested in participating and earning up to $1000 weekly through various >sperm donor programs in the following US states and Canadian Provinces, visit >http://206.67.50.45/ > >USA: >Alabama Kentucky North Dakota >Louisiana Ohio >Arizona Maine Oklahoma >Arkansas Maryland Oregon >California Massachusetts Pennsylvania >Colorado Michigan Rhode Island >Connecticut Minnesota South Carolina >Delaware Mississippi South Dakota >District of Columbia Missouri Tennessee >Florida Montana Texas >Georgia Nebraska Utah >Hawaii Nevada Vermont >Idaho New Hampshire Virginia >Illinois New Jersey Washington >Indiana New Mexico West Virginia >Iowa New York Wisconsin >Kansas North Carolina >Wyoming > >Canada: >Alberta British Columbia Manitoba >New Brunswick Quebec >Northwest Territories Nova Scotia Ontario >- >Yukon > >go to visit http://206.67.50.45 >If you are a healthy male between the ages of 18-45 and are seriously >interested in participating and earning up to $1000 weekly through various >sperm donor programs in the following US states and Canadian Provinces, visit >http://206.67.50.45/ > >USA: >Alabama Kentucky North Dakota >Louisiana Ohio >Arizona Maine Oklahoma >Arkansas Maryland Oregon >California Massachusetts Pennsylvania >Colorado Michigan Rhode Island >Connecticut Minnesota South Carolina >Delaware Mississippi South Dakota >District of Columbia Missouri Tennessee >Florida Montana Texas >Georgia Nebraska Utah >Hawaii Nevada Vermont >Idaho New Hampshire Virginia >Illinois New Jersey Washington >Indiana New Mexico West Virginia >Iowa New York Wisconsin >Kansas North Carolina >Wyoming > >Canada: >Alberta British Columbia Manitoba >New Brunswick Quebec >Northwest Territories Nova Scotia Ontario >- >Yukon > >go to http://206.67.50.45/ > > > > > > > >=<><>===>==>><==<=<< > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 22:28:11 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Tognon Marco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe silly to you, but the news is as "Sound from Heaven" for us. Don't give up, it will work. Cheers, Marco ---------- > From: mohamed aagdii > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: > Date: maandag 16 februari 1998 12:37 > > Hello, > > i have found the problem, in my digital city account i wrote the address > starting "List for the discussion-" etc., otherwise it would not > send the mail, in hotmail i have to leave that part of the address > out otherwise it would not deliver it either. > > this will help me to send less mail, i hope, but it would not > correct my grammar nor my logic. i started to read a little > of grammar two weeks ago, it is all silly but life is so. > > tagdi > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:03:04 +0000 Reply-To: shadowland@sk.sympatico.ca Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Ian Preston Organization: Shadowland Moving Picture Co. Subject: spell checker MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I use Pegasus. It has a fair spelling checker. This address points to a number of download sites: http://www.pegasus.usa.com/ftp.asp Apart from that, if I have a long message to compose, I sometimes do it in a word processor first, then copy it to the mail program. >hotmail have good spelling checker. > i tried to send mail form hotmail, it didnt work. >do you know what can i do that i can send mail. Ian Preston shadowland@sk.sympatico.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:48:55 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: not here! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>At 12:23 AM 2/15/98 -0600, you wrote: >>>Kirby, I am an avid reader and infrequent respondant, I enjoy most of >>>your stuff. However, I am compelled to say there are more appropriate >>>forums for political viewpoints than this one. >>> >>>Scot White >>>email: rswhite@webtv.net >>> Maybe so. On the other hand, GEODESIC archives to the University of Buffalo which gives me a convenient way to hyperlink posts from my website 'Synergetics on the Web' (which intersects the political arena coming from my personal angle as well).[1] There's a pattern to my posts and web pages, as well as ties to the Fuller Syllabus (both explicit i.e. "Medal of Freedom winner" and implicit) -- so I claim this material is relevant. I don't post my editorial diatribes all that frequently, but they're part of the design science chronicles. Note that I've been suggesting artifact-based solutions to the biochemical stockpiles problem -- new websites and like that. But hey, if you're compelled then you're compelled, what can I say? Kirby Curriculum writer 4D Solutions [1] e.g. politics.html, bosnia.html, usaos2.html, makeover0.html (these go back years, some of them) --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:02:54 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: The End of an Era Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Sewing a Bitter Harvest >> an editorial by Kirby Urner >> Friday 13th, February, 1998 >> >SNIP long irrelevant post nobody wishes to read over again. > Absolutely, it's poor form to requote large messages in a reply, unless you're doing some kind of paragraph-by-paragraph analysis or response. I admit I slip in the typo department sometimes (e.g. fervor vs. furvor) -- don't always take the time to seriously spell check. But the grammar is usually pretty good -- I suggest you revisit sentences that didn't scan and double check, as I think they usually do. I also suggest you not spend a lot of time with my posts. I get plenty of fan mail, including about this Iraq stuff from GEODESIC subscribers -- really it's not a problem for me if you just zap anything by Kirby Urner (I certainly have no compunctions about doing the same for other authors with stuff landing unsolicited in my inbox, once I've reached a decision). Kirby =========== [1] example fan mail: Kirby, Just felt like writing a note to say I appreciate all you say with respect to Synergetics, even though I don't always follow you 100%. I also appreciate your remarks from time to time on the subject of education of our children, please keep it up. My interest in Fuller began with CRITICAL PATH and his politics. It has carried over to fascination with Geodesic domes. Also writing to agree with you on the Iraqi point of view. It seems we have now occupied the spot that was formely owned by South Africa on the extreme right of "democracies". This is the more pitiable because the population is 100% sucked in by the media blitz and totally unaware of being manipulated. It doesn't look well for the home of the free and the brave. Very sad and your voice is appreciated here. Warm regards, [subscriber to GEODESIC] --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:35:45 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Edward Combs Jr." Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Subject: Re: The End of an Era I have Posted a couple of items about Iraq, none of them pro-Iraq. Some people may think that I am a bigot....and I must admit that I am, but not on Race or religion, but on Despots of any color. I don't like Iraq or Iran because their leaders wants to take the world back to the 11th century AD...where President Reagan only wanted to take the world back to 1800 AD. BTW, I like to keep all News Group matters in the NG and DO NOT ANSWER E-MAIL! ............... Kirby Urner wrote in message <34e49133.138261880@news.teleport.com>... > > > Sewing a Bitter Harvest > an editorial by Kirby Urner > Friday 13th, February, 1998 > > >What's all this "putting our soldiers in harms way" talk I hear >coming out of Congress these days? What "harm" would that be >pray tell? From what I can see, there's practically zero risk >of getting downed by the Iraqis, so air-defenseless is this >godforsaken patch of desert. > >This is more the armed-to-the-teeth policeman striding into an >interrogation room, the prisoner handcuffed after years of >starving in solitary, ready to prove once and for all who's >boss. These tearful goodbyes from the families as "brave >soldiers" go off to kick the shit out of a defenseless people >just don't seem all that appropriate in this instance -- >more of the inevitable dog wagging formula, sentimental >pablum for the hopelessly dumbed down. > >Saying it's all up to Saddam Hussein what happens next is a >cop-out, a tremendous abdication of responsibility. Why >bother having a USA president at all (very expensive) if >Baghdad is really calling all the shots. Should I be proud >of a "leader" who surrenders his executive responsibilities >to an enemy so readily? Is this wimp-talk or what? And >we hear the same lines coming from Newt -- this must be >some kind of contest, with the wimpiest Republicrats favored >to win. > >The executive branch has been hell-bent on making this a good >old fashioned shoot-out media extravaganza for a long time, >sent the imperial bull dog around the neighborhood to scare >up a show of support, and when told "no" many times in many >ways, she came home to report "yes, just oddly expressed" >-- deaf doggy, dumb doggy. > >I'm sorry, but by my little heart is not going pitterpat with >patriotic furvor as I see old glory dropping across a scene of >military jets pounding "convertible" suburban facilities into a >powder which may or may not contain incinerated anthrax spores >amidst all that bone-ash from innocent children. > >And that "fermenting vat" purportedly sold to the Iraqis by the >Russians, and which the imperial bulldog made some theatrically >ominous comments about (but without having any independent >knowledge beyond what was in the newspapers) -- was that for >a deadly biochemical brew or just for making beer? And will >we ever know more, or was this just another war-stoking log, >timed to whip up some Cold War style fervor (can't trust those >Russians ya know), and to be conveniently forgotten after the >cowardly deed is done? > >How about if this turns out to be a false or simply unproved >allegation that Treasury pledges to give the Russians 10 >billion dollars in cold cash and pay all outstanding UN dues >in compensation? Lets put some real "steel" in our diplomacy >for a change. > >I think the French have the right idea with their proposal to >augment the UN inspector teams with a cadre of elite scientists >and other experts specifically tasked to deal with those >presidential castles. Lets make each castle a website, >complete with webcams refreshing every 10 seconds or so. >We can even have a channel on cable showing trucks coming >and going and NRO stills with zoom-ins on suspicious >activities. That might drive them underground, sure -- but >we'll see them burrowing. > >Lets make the inspection process extremely open and fun for >couch potatos who want a vicarious thrill, lets prototype tight >monitoring in a way that preserves some privacy, but never- >theless makes it really really difficult for mad scientists >to concoct any more WMDs, ever, anywhere, either on or off >our planet. > >Then lets bring all this technology home and turn it on our own >WMD stockpiles, every bit as much in need of monitoring and >destruction as Iraq's. The Iraqis will be able to watch the >Hanford mess on HDTV, or by surfing the web, knowing that the >world is moving to a better time, and biochemical stockpiles >are a serious crime against humanity wherever and whenever >they occur. > >In such an environment, the switchboards will light up with >calls from whistle blowers and informants all around the world >if ever they think biochemical weapons manufacturing is going >on anywhere in their midst -- because the whole of humanity will >be united in this purpose. Those with courage and intelligence >will feel on the same side against a common enemy: those sick >and twisted types who still indulge their nightmare fantasies >for real in the lab. > >--------------------------------------------------------- >Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html >4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] >--------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:01:37 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: MORRmike@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The End of an Era Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit any idea how i get off of this list? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:30:42 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Spencer W Hunter Organization: The University of Arizona Subject: Wired article This is probably old news to a lot of you; I follow bit.listserv.geodesic as a newsgroup only, and I've missed a lot of articles. I was thumbing through my latest issue of _Wired_ magazine, and came across a short paragraph that mentioned Kirby Urner's _Synergetics-L_ listserve and a *phenomenal* web adaptation of Fuller's _Synergetics_ at: http://www.servtech.com/public/rwgray/synergetics/synergetics.html . Fuller is also featured in a cover article by Reinhold Martin, "Forget Fuller?" in _ANY_ (Architecture New York) 1997, no. 17. I don't know if I can stand this much excitement!! -- Spencer W. Hunter Tucson, AZ. | veni, vidi, vamos. shunter@u.arizona.edu | they came, they saw, they left. gopher://www.u.arizona.edu:80/hGET%20/~shunter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:12:54 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Riversong Subject: Re: HTML EMAIL TEST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:14 PM 2/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >This is a test; this is ONLY a test! > >This email is in HTML format ["rich text"]. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > > > >Picture of earth from the moon >**************************************** >* Joe S. Moore It doesn't fly on Eudora. Also i'm viciously against the idea of posting graphics files to newsgroups -- it compromises computer security for many of us. Generally i delete the suckers without opening them unless i know the poster personally. -- Michael Riversong ** P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900 Professional Harpist ** Author of ** MRiversong@earthlink.net ** http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong MUSIC SAMPLE now available on the web site QUALITY ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS - Take control of your life now. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 01:34:01 +0000 Reply-To: chardhawk@nets.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: richard hawkins Subject: Hypertoons!!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit About a year or so ago Kirby Urner coined the term and came up with the concept HYPERTOONS which relates to the idea of linking from one animated scene to another within and among websites, assimilating information mosaically rather than linearly. Over the weekend I realized that my A&B modules site would be a good candidate for implementing this concept and so I have created links from page to page integrating ideas as they relate to each other. http://www.rt66.com/~charhawk/mods.html In order to make this work like you were running it off a CD you need to make sure your browser disk cache has enough disk space alloted by going to the top menu (in Netcape) OPTIONS/NETWORK PREFERENCES/CACHE and set CACHE size to about 20M. I'm sure there is a way to adjust cache size in Internet Explorer too but I'm not familiar enough to give instructions. After you have downloaded the animations only once, then you should be able to return at any time and find them load from your cache in a few seconds. Happy Hypertooning! -- Richard Hawkins http://www.newciv.org/Synergetic_Geometry/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:47:07 -0600 Reply-To: jnugent@hrn.bradley.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Jim Nugent (the elder)" Organization: Digital Art & Design Solutions Subject: The Rest of the Story MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3E19E5179258CCDC90A4E7E9" --------------3E19E5179258CCDC90A4E7E9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mingled in between the stories on the buildup in the Persian Gulf and the proceeding of the Starr Chamber you can find some real news. Bucky probably would be encouraged to see scientists, reporters and others viewing things the way he does, even if they are 20 to 30 years behind the leading edge. His thoughts or responses to the saber rattling in the mid-east might be shaped by the following positive maxims. * Livingry not Killingry * Doing more with less * Making the world work for 100 percent of it's people Some of the rest of the news follows. ----- "Light trucks -- which include sport utility vehicles, pickups and mini-vans -- are the fastest growing source of emissions of global warming gases in the United States. . . . Fuel-economy standards for cars rose to 27.5 miles a gallon in 1985 while truck standards have barely changed. In 1975, when Congress passed the fuel economy legislation, the average fuel economy of new light trucks was 13 percent below cars. Now, it is 25 percent lower. . . . The largest Chevrolet Suburbans and full-sized pickups have become so heavy that they no longer even qualify as light trucks under the 22-year-old fuel-economy legislation. . . . Both gasoline consumption and emmissions of carbon dioxide are 86 percent higher for a Chevrolet Suburban than for a Honda Accord. . ." Keith Bradsher. License to Pollute, A Special Report in the November 30, 1997 New York Times. ----- "The Environmental Protection Agency has discovered that hundreds of thousands of heavy-duty diesel engines run cleanly during tests but give off much more pollution in normal use." John Cushman. Makers of Diesel Truck Engines are Under Pollution Inquiry in the February 11, 1998 New York Times. ------ "The auto insurance industry urged auto makers today to redesign sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks, afeter concluding that these vehicles increased the risk of death for other road users while providing little if any additional protection for their own occupants." Keith Bradsher. Insurers Saying Sport Utilities Need Redesign in the February 10, 1998 New York Times. ----- "The next oil crunch will not be so temporary [compared to 1973 and 1979]. Our analysis of the discovery and production of oil fields around the world suggests that within the next decade, the supply of conventional oil will be unable to keep up with demand." Campbell and Laherrere. The End of Cheap Oil in the March, 1998 Scientific American ----- "Scientists experimenting with a fascinating speck of matter called a single-walled carbon nanotube predict that this elegantly geometrical molecule is about to ignite a revolution in electronics, computers, chemistry and new structural materials. . . . If the graphite sheet forming a nanotube is rolled up perfectly evenly, so that all its hexagons line up along the molecule's axis, the molecule conducts electricity as redily as if it were a metal. But if the graphite rolls up at a twisted angle, the resulting nanotube behavea as a semiconductor." Malcome Brown. The Next Electronics Breakthrough: Carbon Atoms in the February 17, 1998 New York Times "Planning for Sustainable Transportation. . . Devising concrete strategies for expanding and innovating sustainable transportation, including efficient transit, sustainable freight and delivery, pedestrian- and cyling-friendly design, urban green tourism, telework and teleconferencing. . . . . .and Economic Revitalization Developing a plan to support small business, stimulate retail trade, improve the bottom line for businesses, make effiecient use of taxpayers' money, create jobs, keep money circulating locally, and convert ailing industries." Moving the Economy: Economic Opportunities in Sustainable Transportation, An International Conference. July 9 to 12, 1998 in Toronto, Canada -------------------------------- -------------------------------- Jim Nugent 2309 Blackhawk Road Springfield, Illinois 62702-1369 U.S.A. 217-525-6704 jnugent@hrn.bradley.edu http://www.fgi.net/~jnugent/ ---------------------------- Mind your own business! Do no wrong! Do all the good you can! Eat your canvas back ducks! Drink your burgundy, sleep your Siesta, and Trust in God! John Adams --------------3E19E5179258CCDC90A4E7E9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mingled in between the stories on the buildup in the Persian Gulf and the proceeding of the Starr Chamber you can find some real news.

Bucky probably would be encouraged to see scientists, reporters and others viewing things the way he does, even if they are 20 to 30 years behind the leading edge. His thoughts or responses to the saber rattling in the mid-east might be shaped by the following positive maxims.

  • Livingry not Killingry
  • Doing more with less
  • Making the world work for 100 percent of it's people
Some of the rest of the news follows.
-----
"Light trucks -- which include sport utility vehicles, pickups and mini-vans -- are the fastest growing source of emissions of global warming gases in the United States. . . . Fuel-economy standards for cars rose to 27.5 miles a gallon in 1985 while truck standards have barely changed. In 1975, when Congress passed the fuel economy legislation, the average fuel economy of new light trucks was 13 percent below cars. Now, it is 25 percent lower. . . . The largest Chevrolet Suburbans and full-sized pickups have become so heavy that they no longer even qualify as light trucks under the 22-year-old fuel-economy legislation. . . . Both gasoline consumption and emmissions of carbon dioxide are 86 percent higher for a Chevrolet Suburban than for a Honda Accord. . ."
    Keith Bradsher. License to Pollute, A Special Report in the November 30, 1997 New York Times.
-----
"The Environmental Protection Agency has discovered that hundreds of thousands of heavy-duty diesel engines run cleanly during tests but give off much more pollution in normal use."
    John Cushman. Makers of Diesel Truck Engines are Under Pollution Inquiry in the February 11, 1998 New York Times.
------
"The auto insurance industry urged auto makers today to redesign sport utility vehicles and pickup trucks, afeter concluding that these vehicles increased the risk of death for other road users while providing little if any additional protection for their own occupants."
    Keith Bradsher. Insurers Saying Sport Utilities Need Redesign in the February 10, 1998 New York Times.
-----
"The next oil crunch will not be so temporary [compared to 1973 and 1979]. Our analysis of the discovery and production of oil fields around the world suggests that within the next decade, the supply of conventional oil will be unable to keep up with demand."
 
    Campbell and Laherrere. The End of Cheap Oil in the March, 1998 Scientific American
 -----
"Scientists experimenting with a fascinating speck of matter called a single-walled carbon nanotube predict that this elegantly geometrical molecule is about to ignite a revolution in electronics, computers, chemistry and new structural materials. . . . If the graphite sheet forming a nanotube is rolled up perfectly evenly, so that all its hexagons line up along the molecule's axis, the molecule conducts electricity as redily as if it were a metal. But if the graphite rolls up at a twisted angle, the resulting nanotube behavea as a semiconductor."
     Malcome Brown. The Next Electronics Breakthrough: Carbon Atoms in the February 17, 1998 New York Times
"Planning for Sustainable Transportation. . .
Devising concrete strategies for expanding and innovating sustainable transportation, including efficient transit, sustainable freight and delivery, pedestrian- and cyling-friendly design, urban green tourism, telework and teleconferencing. . .

. . .and Economic Revitalization
Developing a plan to support small business, stimulate retail trade, improve the bottom line for businesses, make effiecient use of taxpayers' money, create jobs, keep money circulating locally, and convert ailing industries."

    Moving the Economy: Economic Opportunities in Sustainable Transportation, An International Conference. July 9 to 12, 1998 in Toronto, Canada
--------------------------------
 

--------------------------------
Jim Nugent
2309 Blackhawk Road
Springfield, Illinois
62702-1369
U.S.A.

217-525-6704
jnugent@hrn.bradley.edu
http://www.fgi.net/~jnugent/

----------------------------
Mind your own business!
Do no wrong!
Do all the good you can!
Eat your canvas back ducks!
Drink your burgundy,
sleep your Siesta,
and Trust in God!

John Adams
  --------------3E19E5179258CCDC90A4E7E9-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:57:33 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DoctorData@AOL.COM Subject: Grammar & Spelling Please!!! If any difference is made in the world by our particpation here on this list, it's the content of the messages, and the actions we take based on them. To pick apart the spelling and the grammar is to ignore the message, in which case, why are you here, anyway? I admit to being mystified by the occasional term used here in some postings, but it's the work of a fraction of a second to delete a message. -Steve Burgess ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:57:37 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DoctorData@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The End of an Era You wrote: >This is the more pitiable because the population is 100% sucked >in by the media blitz and totally unaware of being manipulated. It doesn't >look well for the home of the free and the brave. Very sad and your voice is >appreciated here. While I find it intriguing that you are not part of the 100% of us that is sucked in by the media blitz, I am glad to find out that all my study and thought to the contrary, I am just another one of the manipulated. If you have such faith in the ability of Americans to think, why do you bother with hoping that any of Bucky's principles can take hold here? Let's just buy stock in the media conspiracy and go home. For my part, I believe just a bit more in the ability of my countrymen, like the rest of humanity, to think for themselves. In this, I'm sure I can count myself with one similarity to Bucky. -Steve Burgess -President, Committed To Memory, LLC "He who dies with the most toys... ...still dies. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:30:10 -0800 Reply-To: oregon@ordata.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc. Subject: Re: Domes in the Movies (Recap) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One more for TV: The Olympic venue where they have been holding the Ice Skating and Dancing business is a geodesic dome (the White Ring, or something like that). anthony kalenak wrote: > > Here is a list of Domes in the Movies": > > Slaughterhouse Five > Silent Running > Logans Run > Phase 5 > Forbidden Planet > Empire Strikes Back > Mystery Science Theater 3000 > Illustated Man > Flashback > Contact > Twins > Rocky Horror Picture Show (my wife's entry) > > TV: > Northern Exposure > Babylon 5 > Dr. Who > > Hope I haven't missed any. > Thanks. > and nominations are still open. -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:07:58 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed aagdii Subject: Tensegrity sculpture and giraafes Content-Type: text/plain The similarity between sculpture by k.snelson and giraffe indicate that this generalized principle applies to all creatures. i hope that Snelson is happy about the article, i think Carl Erickson, and DeJong are also happy by it. confirmation from a Phd level is something. scientific america has in the same issue an article about the geometry of soap bubbles. Fuller graph-the frequency of talking or writing about his ideas is higher than when he was alive. in my reading i found constant confirmation or repetition of what Fuller has said in all areas he explored. he once mentioned that humanity would reach 100% high standard of living by year 2000. there is about 2 years left, i think he was way off. in my reading and calculation,including the level of people understanding of the issue, i would say that it is going to be very difficult to make society understand the issue envolved to bring about the success of 100%. in the meantime everyone is shuffling in the darkness, the major players who could do something are busy making money. by my estimate i would think that the year 2005 would be the year where humanity starts to understand some of the issue envolved. tagdi ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:28:55 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed aagdii Subject: Oil reserv Content-Type: text/plain i list the figures from memory, this give a general picture. it could be not entirely correct, but it helps to picture the situation. 1985 Suad arabia 190 billion barrel Kuwait 80-90 Libay 50 Iran Iraq 80 Mexico 50 Brazil U.S 50 Russia Nigeria World daily consumption 56 million barrel a day, U.S consumes about 11 million a day, 4 to 6 comes from other countries. someone might have a better list, now why didn't i keep a copy of that important statistic. tagdi ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:28:15 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: What's our (US) Interest? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LynnR3787@aol.com wrote: >Allow me to join the ranks of idiots who do not understand our (US) national >interest in Iraq. (That is not the same as our interest in Iraq.) I've >spent a good portion of evening looking, but haven't found the answer. >Someone please help me out. I see no justification for acting on our own; >The UN needs to enforce its own resolutions. What does the US stand to gain? > Who are we defending? What liberty is at stake? The other Arab States >don't seem too concerned about his weapons of mass destruction; Hussein can't >deliver them to US soil (assuming he has them); why should we bother. Before >someone dies in this conflict, especially as the result of a Clinton order, >I'd like to read some justification. Anyone? MEMORANDUM Feb 19, 1998 FR: Kirby Urner, 4D Solutions TO: LynnR3787, AOL netizen RE: current USA OS policy Greetings LynnR3787 -- The USA's security depends on mapping out credible scenarios whereby high living standards with an ethical basis might be achieved for populations currently suffering under a warlord or other dark ages form of leadership. LAWCAP's mistake is to use fear as a galvanizer on the one hand, while subverting its own integrity by means of misinformation campaigns on the other. The USA curriculum is getting better at filtering out misinformation and finds the fear-mongering to be an inferior strategy, less likely to deprive warlords of their undeserved and ruinous control over so many lives. The ethical basis for high living standards goes with a commitment to transparency in government and a willingness to provide any amount of relevant information that might assist in the solution of critical problems. In this case, providing more insight into how biochemical stockpiles came into existence (R&D, sponsors, rationale), where they currently exist (globally), some ideas about how to monitor them (e.g. for leakage) and methods for their destruction (both tried and proposed) is a top USA OS priority, regardless of whatever LAWCAP thinks might be USA policy (LAWCAP so far shows very little insight into the workings of the USA, probably because of all the irrelevant trainings it sponsors on its own behalf -- a victim of its own brainwashing). Definitions of terms: LAWCAP -- lawyer-capitalism as per Medal of Freedom winner RBF's 'Critical Path' narrative, Prouty's website, and some X-Files episodes. Lost the Cold War to the Russians and is losing the design science revolution to the USA. Still under the illusion that it puppets the USA, but actually lacks high level security clearance for lack of relevant training. USA OS -- our USA operating system (OS) militates against ancient misconditioning (perhaps at one time state of the art, but no longer) leading to uncoordinated, inefficient ops, invests in more timely training and technology than LAWCAP is able to furnish, and even shares same with Russian counterparts (a two way street of course) -- highly colla- borative in its global communications, but deadly against strut and puff warlords using mainly fear and intimidation to control their own people. Sincerely, Kirby Urner 4D Solutions Curriculum writer --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:47:06 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: List of major domes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey, has anyone taken to the task of compiling a list of major geodesic domes and tensegrity structures of the world? (Also, relatedly - and the reason I ask - any noteworthy domes or tensegrity structures worth checking out in the state of Florida? Besides Epcot.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:37:07 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: List of major domes? Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) This is a good one, (Also what is the largest Dome ever Built ?) Well I know I can't add much to this list yet, but here goes ( and these sure don't help you in Florida). ............................................ The Expodome (250' Dia, Ht ?) Epcot dome The Reunion Tower in Dallas (Has a Geodesic Dome on top) (Is this right ? Is there anyone from Dallas or familiar with it ?) Kaiser Dome (Honolulu) Headquarters of the American Society of Metals (Cleveland, Ohio) Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station (54' high, 164' dia by Temcor) St. Louis Botanical Gardens Climatron Union Tank Car Round House (Baton Rouge. La; 386' dia. & 116' high) (Note: I took the last 5 entries from "Buckminster Fuller: An Autobiographical Monologue/Scenario" by Robert Snyder. It has some good pictures and narrative too. For all I know these may not still exist. Does anyone know ?) Casa Manana Kaiser (Fort Worth, Tx; 145' built in 1958) Citizens State Bank ( Oklahoma City, Ok; 145' Built in 1958. Also a Kaiser Dome.) (These are from " The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller") OH... And what about The Dome that houses or used to house the Spuce Goose ? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:29:01 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chuck Knight Subject: Re: List of major domes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The Reunion Tower in Dallas (Has a Geodesic Dome on top) (Is this right > ? Is there anyone from Dallas or familiar with it ?) Yep, I live about 10 minutes from it, barring downtown traffic. It's got a beautiful skeletal full-sphere on top of it, with a revolving restaurant inside of it. There's a light bulb at each vertex, and they're lit in patterns...makes for a very spectacular effect at night. The only thing is, I don't know what size it is. I doubt it's in the list of the biggest domes in the US...it's spectacular, though. -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:33:25 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: A Geodesic Society? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- --- begin forwarded text X-Sender: rah@pop.sneaker.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 00:24:07 -0500 To: gis-ec@nikkei.co.jp, gis-net@nikkei.co.jp From: Robert Hettinga Subject: [gis-asia 10] A Geodesic Society? Cc: gis-asia@nikkei.co.jp Reply-To: gis-asia@nikkei.co.jp X-MLserver: majordomo-1.94.1 k-patch-2.0-alpha p-patch-1.0 X-sequence: gis-asia 10 Sender: owner-gis-asia@tokyo.nikkei.co.jp Precedence: bulk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- As the token cryptoanarchist around here, I've been lurking way too long, mostly because I'm working on this financial cryptography conference we're doing in Anguilla next week. However, A lot of good stuff has gone by on all of these groups, and I think it's time I put my oar in and earned my keep a bit before I enter the maelstrom of next week's FC98 conference, and loose my chance to say anything here until it's all over. The first topic I'd like to talk about is something which is more general than my ostensible commercial focus in these discussions, and, after I've said my piece here, I'll go back to the commerce list and pay more attention to that end of things. I have a little more to say there on what you can do with the technology of money on public networks, though I'll drop a few hints here to get people thinking about them. My observation about networks in general is a rather obvious one when you think about it: our social structures map to our communication structures. As intuitive as it is to understand, this observation provides great insight into where the technology of computer assisted communication will take us in the years ahead. Because of Moore's Law and its effect of collapsing the price of semiconductors by half every 18 months, our telecommunication architectures have changed from hierarchical networks, where it's cheaper to add lines than it is to add expensive switching nodes, to geodesic networks, where it is ever-exponentially cheaper to add microprocessor switches instead of now relatively more expensive transmission lines. This isn't new. In fact, it's outlined in Peter Huber's landmark "The Geodesic Network", written in 1986 as a report for Judge Harold Greene as part of the Modified Final Judgement which broke up American Telephone and Telegraph, and with it the US telephone monopoly. I believe the original version is still available from the US Government Printing Office, and I know that you can order a revised edition from Peter Huber's law firm in Washington. Huber himself is now a famous technology analyst from the Manhattan Institute and a Forbes columnist, among other things. In "The Geodesic Network", Huber observed that because the network was becoming more and more geodesic, competition in telecommunications was becoming much easier. That's because switching, a scarce thing which had theretofore caused economies of scale and resultant "natural" monopoly, was becoming cheaper and cheaper to build, and thus causing *dis*economies of scale in the telephone markets. One can almost hear Huber doing a little heavy lifting from the Marines in report's conclusion, which was, essentially, "Deregulate 'em all, and let God sort 'em out." It's nice to see that we're finally getting to see deregulation of the "last mile" of the US telephone network 10 years after Huber's recommendation. As it is, it took *me* almost 10 years to realize something else about geodesic networks. It's something which required me getting back on the internet 4 years ago, after not being there since grad school, and discovering that financial cryptography -- that is, the cryptographic protocols for internet payment -- was much more important than the project management software I had wanted to sell on the net at the time. My realization was, if Moore's Law creates geodesic communications networks, and our social structures -- our institutions, our businesses, our governments -- all map to the way we communicate in large groups, then we are in the process of creating a geodesic society. A society in which communication between any two residents of that society, people, economic entities, pieces of software, whatever, is geodesic: literally, the straightest line across a sphere, rather than hierarchical, through a chain of command, for instance. This seems like a very simple truth these days. A "motherhood", as people in American business like to say. But, once you start thinking about the world in the terms of geodesic networks versus hierarchical ones, the world changes. A Buckminster Fuller version of satori, if you will, though I'm sure Bucky didn't think of human society in geodesic terms, at least from what I've read of his work. His "World Game", for instance, is primarily about the hierarchical centralization and redistribution of resources in an industrial fashion. But, as it was, Bucky Fuller had discovered a geometric archtype which was deeper than even his capacious understanding of its implications had gotten him before. So in light of this observation, for fun, let's look at human history in a few paragraphs. :-). Humans first lived in small groups on the African savanna. An artifact of this life is the fact that most people can't have serious emotional relationships with more than about 12 people, depending on how you define serious. :-). Think of it as the carrying capacity of the human "switch", and things get interesting. These small groups communicated geodesically. When you wanted to talk to someone, you went up and talked to them. Then we developed agriculture and its resulting food surpluses, people tended to congregate at the crossroads of trade routes, and that's where the first cities began. Civilization means, literally, "life in cities", remember? Once we had large groups of people in a single place, we had lots of information to pass around, but we also had expensive humans "switching" that information who were only able to trust about 12 people at any time. So, we had to develop hierarchical "networks", social organizations in other words, to move that information around. Notice we finesse the whole trust problem by using the entire hierarchy as one entity in everyone's trusted-person list. That's why people die for king and country, for instance, instead of just their family hunter-gatherer clan. So, we can now see the ancient city-state as a hierarchy of power, economics, whatever. We can also see ancient empires as a hierarchies of city states, and so on. Notice that the size of any given hierarchy in geographic terms is determined by the *speed* of communications it posesses. Athenian triremes were very secure ways to move goods and information in a relatively lawless Agean. Roman roads and galleys didn't just haul goods quickly, they moved information as well. Staged Mongol riders could carry messages across their own short-lived empire from a capital near China to the gates of Warsaw in as little as 14 days. Napoleon invented his 10-mile-an-hour stagecoach and highway system for exactly the same reason, and could almost legitimately call himself an emperor for the feat alone. That brings us to the modern nation state, which, I claim, is entirely the result of industrial communications technology. That is, you have increasingly faster communications, from sailing ships to trains to telegraphy and finally telephony, but you still have humans switching information. That gives you larger and larger communication, and thus social, hierarchies. Up until the automation of telephone switching -- paradoxically brought about a demand for universal service in exchange for that ultimate industrial hierarchy, the US telephone monopoly -- things just kept getting bigger and bigger. One could even see the increasing size of government in this century as an "antihierarchy" funded by the forcible confiscation or political extortion of economic rents from the large industrial hierarchies where industrial society's money was being made in the first place. For a tasty little digression, Marxism then can be seen as simple anti-industrialism, and an intriguing validation of Bertrand Russell's comments about the similarity of Marxism and the feudal aristocracy it hated so much. Hegel can't come to Marx's rescue here at all, because, for all it's anarchistic pretensions, Marxism can now be seen as merely industrialism's hierarchical antithesis, and not something "beyond capitalism". Besides, trading has been around since the savana itself. It's hard to imagine something antithetical to trade -- and have the result be human, anyway. :-). Okay. Now let's look at the future, shall we? Oddly enough, the "future" starts with the grant of telephone monopoly to AT&T in the 1920's in exchange for universal telephone service. When AT&T figured out that a majority of people would have to be telephone operators for that to happen, it started to automate switching, from electricomechanical, to electronic (the transistor was invented at Ball Labs, remember), to, finally, semiconducting microprocessors. Which, Huber noted, brought us Moore's Law, and, finally, that mother of all geodesic networks, the internet. So, seen this way, using the hierarchy-to-geodesy synthesis (speaking of Hegel :-)), a lot of things jump out right at us. Let's look at financial operations, for example. One can see, for instance, that the thing we call disintermediation in the capital markets is in fact a process leading to something I call *micro*intermediation, where large human decision hierarchies, like the New York Stock Exchange, or money center banks, are being outcompeted by large integrated proprietary computer networks, like the NASDAQ interbrokerage network, or Fidelity Investments here in Boston. Yet, these financial versions of big dumb bulletin boards, which still need humans to operate them on behalf of the customer, will themselves be replaced someday by smaller, more specialized and automated entities operating in increasingly smaller market niches, and, we aren't just talking about financial "shovelware", with database-driven web forms, either. Someday, for instance, a couple of portfolio managers from Fidelity could strike out on their own peculiar investment specialty, and set up a web server to handle their investor relations, but in a way that financial operations people thought was obsolete decades ago. Using financial cryptgraphy like David Chaum's blind signature protocol, our portfolio managers could just issue digital *bearer* certificates, right over the net to their customers, representing shares in the portfolio they manage, rather than keep track of all a given client's transactions in a database for posterity. Even more fun, using the digital bearer *cash* they get from the sale of those certificates, they could turn right around and instantly buy debt, equity, or any derivative thereof, in digital bearer form, of course, without waiting for any transactions to settle through a clearinghouse of any kind. Why? Because knowing that you've digitally signed a unique blop of bits and honoring the promises those various outstanding blops represent is a whole lot easier, faster, and, of course, cheaper than keeping track of every transaction you make for seven years, or whatever your friendly nation state says you have to do so they can send somebody to jail if that person lies to you. And, of course, digital bearer settlement is *much* faster than waiting for all those book-entries to percolate through various clearinghouses, banks, brokerages, and other financial intermediaries in order for a trade to clear and settle. Financial cryptography is a direct consequence of Moore's Law. You can't do it without computers, and, more important, lots of cheap computers on a network. But, you can do a lot of very neat things with it, as we've seen above. In fact, the protocols of financial cryptography will be the glue which holds a geodesic economy, if you will, together. And, of course, as Deke Slayton put it, "No bucks, no Buck Rogers." No geodesic economy, no geodesic society. I joke about VISA being replaced someday by an innumerable swarm of very small underwriting 'bots' whose job it is to form an ad hoc syndicate which buys the personal digital bearer bond issue you floated for today's lunch. In a geodesic market, the one-to-many relationships of hierarchical book-entry-settled industrial finance, like checks and credit cards, becomes to the many-to-one relationship of the geodesic digital-bearer-settled cash and the personal bond syndicate. But, what, you ask, do I do when someone defrauds me? The neat thing about using financial cryptography on public networks is that you can use the much cheaper early-industrial trust models that went away because you couldn't shove a paper bearer bond down a telegraph wire. In short, reputation becomes everything. Like J. Pierpont Morgan said 90 years ago, "...Character. I wouldn't buy anything from a man with no character if he offered me all the bonds in Christendom." In a geodesic market, if someone commits fraud, everyone knows it. Instantly. And, something much worse than incarceration happens to that person. That person's reputation "capital" disappears. They cease to exist financially. Financial cryptographers jokingly call it reputation capital punishment. :-). The miscreant has to start all over with a new digital signature, and have to pay through the nose until that signature's reputation's established. A very long and expensive process, as anyone who's gone bankrupt will testify to. So, you don't need biometric identity to stop non-repudiation. Translated, that means that since you're moving secure digital bearer certificates over an insecure private network like the internet, and not moving insecure debits and credits over a secure private network like the SWIFT system, you don't need audit trails to send someone to jail if they make the wrong book entry. Instead, you trust the issuer of a given piece of digital bearer cash, say, and not the person who gave it to you, just like you trust the issuer of a given currency today. Biometric identity is orthogonal to reputation in, um, "cypherspace". And, of course, a financial intermediary like the above issuer of digital bearer cash is not about to destroy its reputation for the sake of a very small transaction like the one you're doing, any more than the Fed would demand 6 one dollar bills in exchange for one five dollar bill just to make an extra buck. Well, not since they started listening to Friedman, anyway. :-) Microintermediation means what it says. Financial intermediaries never go away. You can't have markets, much less efficient ones, without financial intermediaries buying things low and selling them high. Renting their reputations to ensure transaction liquidity, in other words. This is at the essense of Von Mises' "Calculation Argument" against planned economies, and the defunct economy of the ex-Soviet Union is mute testament to that particular economic truth. Moore's Law, I like to say, operates like a surfactant of information, breaking great globs of concentrated information fractally into smaller and smaller bits, like so much grease in soapy dishwater. Capital, for the most part, can now be converted into information and instantantly bought or sold, or, more to the point, instantly settled and cleared in digital bearer form, in increasingly smaller and smaller bits, by smaller and smaller and increasingly more automated financial intermediaries. Microintermediated, in other words. What we get is a world where anything which can be digitized and sent down a wire will be auctioned off in real-time in cash-settled markets. Stuff like capital we've seen, but lots of other things, which are not immediately intuitive. Machine instructions -- teleoperated or not. Software of all kinds including entertainment and art. Bandwidth; I talk about a router saving enough micromoney out of switching income to buy a copy of itself. Maybe even adjudication and physical force, someday. After all, who says we have to buy violence from the local force monopolies we now call nation states, especially if we can get it cheaper and better -- and possibly in smaller amounts -- in a competitive auction market? Curioser and curioser, as Alice used to say... I mean, the nation-state's just another hierarchical artifact of industrial communication technology, right? Besides, If everyone's paying for things in cash and no book entry taxes can be collected because there aren't any book entries, then, as someone said on a Harvard Law School list a few years ago, "What happens when taxes become a tip"? Of course, there are various cypherpunks out there who say things like "Write softare, not laws.", which should make those folks on Mass Ave in Cambridge more than a little nervous themselves. So, welcome to the geodesic future. Not hoping to attract the wrath of the famous curse, isn't it an, um, interesting place? Cheers, Bob Hettinga -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.5.3 iQEVAwUBNOvB0cUCGwxmWcHhAQHVUAgAgYFUDcKLcsTNnevVmPaTp7lXxLo59oMI qChTR7TmeEi0W6SgSn4nUd5zlJiBkx1ut6n2tIasvfpXgd3OaLqkPo9ZNSrMQZE7 8C1d5dI42/VgN36fDPgB/zVxNrqxDNIFYdOf9aH1A7u4TYUJTe9PSSQdfKxzMyTf FQ+IfAzJjC3PFfxh566ghtHea7n235djGvAd8oHpr0SKBaSfu7jQjGUeecMDcTlg ZzQf7V51MFcgKd/UPi2dybzYZoK8bIb7aJ9cazGc5k1chUOeVOykpW4EIvXZrBs7 Z0oRQfxwU/u+oLpA8Vt7xdK0qCTRLdxnsTzEFLUjTH/70ep3YNcgRA== =9Xak -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk/ info@hyperion.co.uk ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Full-Strength Cryptographic Solutions for Worldwide Electronic Commerce http://www.c2.net/ stronghold@c2.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Like e$? Help pay for it! For e$/e$pam sponsorship or donations, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:43:51 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: List of major domes? In-Reply-To: <199802200437.UAA24019@mailtod-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, anthony kalenak wrote: > (Also what is the largest Dome ever Built ?) I'll take a stab at this one - would it have been the Expo '67 dome? > And what about The Dome that houses or used to house the Spuce Goose ? What/where was this one? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 06:18:05 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Memo to US Dept of Education (archived) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MEMORANDUM February 20, 1998 TO: Melissa Chabran Planning and Evaluation Service U.S. Department of Education FR: Kirby Urner Curriculum writer 4D Solutions, Oregon Dear Ms. Chabran -- You may recall our exchange of memoranda at the end of last year, archived at my website.[1] You expressed some interest in hearing of my progress and accomplishments, even though you were not supportive of my plans to use nonviolent civil disobedience in the great American tradition, should the curriculum juggernaut continue on its present heading towards shipwreck. I am pleased to report that my so-called Math Makeover of 1998 is gathering momentum. Mostly we have been engaged in a lot of cool-headed behind the scenes internet discussion of curriculum matters, including around the subject of racism, as per links previously spelled out and further clarified at my website.[2] However, I maybe should take some responsibility for some of the more disruptive and confrontational displays in recent days at these staged media events. When I referred to our fearless leaders in Washington DC as "loser cretins" who don't even know "baby math" (referring to the A and B modules), this was in a context of looking back from a projected future viewpoint -- imagining how this will all look to kids as yet preverbal, once they have a chance to read their USA history texts and view the archival videos. But people often take such things out of context, as I'm sure you realize. Also, although I've made a point of underlining the strong links between Medal of Freedom winner R. Buckminster Fuller's tetrahedral 4D geometry and anti-racism, I doubt whether most local leaders are thinking "tetrahedron" when they chant "one two three four..." (as if counting the vertices or face window-openings) -- even though the link to anti-racism (and anti-nationalism, a close relative) is abundantly clear.[3] I hope (and strongly suggest) that when Mr. Clinton comes on TV soon to explain his administration's rationale for staging explosive events in Persia, that he'll have something intelligent to say to the math teachers, now that we're telling our kids in more detail about design science, synergetics, and our option to succeed as never before. How does this image they're getting of a bright future in the 21st century sync with Ms. Albright's, for example, which seems very rooted in the 20th -- or maybe 19th? The Russians know about the design science option, and even the Iraqis are signalling some comprehension -- so what's with up with the USA? Anybody home? My kids want some answers. Apologies for the confrontational tone. Mathematics is a really a cool-headed Vulcan enterprise, even when it gets polemical sometimes (i.e. more Klingon). In conclusion, we have been unimpressed with the Clinton administration's efforts to date to do any serious homework on this front (math and geometry) and will no doubt get a lot more vocal about this preceived failing if our putative leaders in Washington, DC continue to demonstrate such apalling ignorance and apathy about our USA mathematics curriculum.[4] Thanks for listening. Sincerely, Kirby Urner Hyperlinks: [1] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/usdepted.html [2] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/makeover1.html [3] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bosnia.html [4] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/mathsummit.html This memo: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/usdepted3.html --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:31:51 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: chris piccirillo Organization: gte.net Subject: Bucky's Original Dome For Sale I am looking for the "right" person to purchase R. Buckminster Fuller's Original Dome Home. It is located on a beautiful piece of real estate in Carbondale, Illinois. I have a web site which shows some photos of the property located at http://home1.gte.net/krispy1/index.html You can also call me at (310) 306-1913 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:51:51 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: Bucky's Original Dome For Sale Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Chris, Why are you selling ? Are you currently living in the dome ? If so, how do you like living in it ? -Tony. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:53:11 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: List of major domes? Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) I think The Spuce Goose was housed at Anahiem or Pasidena, Ca. (Pardon the spelling.) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 03:33:51 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: psyclone Organization: InfiNet Subject: Domes built with flat rolled steel Anyone know of a dome design using flat rolled steel? H. B. Grant hbgrant@infinet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:38:12 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: Domes built with flat rolled steel Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Fuller had several designs using flat - then shaped panels. His Kaiser Aluminum domes are this configuration. Several of his patents adress this design. Why do you specify steel ? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:51:29 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Jonathan B. Thompson" Subject: Re: List of major domes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timberline Geodesics has built two very large timber domes. One is the Tacoma Dome in Washington state, and the other one mentioned is the Superior Dome at Lake Superior State University in the upper peninsual in Michigan. They are 630' anf 660' in diameter (don't recall which is which) and the very interesting thing to keep in mind is (especially Michigan) the weather that has to be dealt with. The Superior Dome has to withstand a very large snow load, since it isn't uncommon for that part of Michigan to get more than 10 feet of snow a year, and rarely does it before spring (or summer). As an example of the kind of snow they deal with, every spring they have a snow man burning ceremony. If you don't believe me, look it up! There is also a large mall in Ankara, Turkey that has a dome that I believe is 384' in diameter, but I'm not sure of the exact dimensions. ---------- > From: Michael Stutz > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: List of major domes? > Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 6:47 PM > > Hey, has anyone taken to the task of compiling a list of major geodesic > domes and tensegrity structures of the world? > > (Also, relatedly - and the reason I ask - any noteworthy domes or tensegrity > structures worth checking out in the state of Florida? Besides Epcot.) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:04:50 -0800 Reply-To: mburr@halcyon.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Burr Subject: Re: List of major domes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan B. Thompson wrote: > Timberline Geodesics has built two very large timber domes. One is the > Tacoma Dome in Washington state, and the other one mentioned is the So Timberline built the Tacoma Dome... I wondered who did. It's beautiful inside, allthe massive struts which appear to be laminated, are exposed. My wife drug me along to an antique show there this year... she looked at antiques and I wandered around looking a the ceiling in awe of the geometry! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:49:33 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Johnson Organization: Natural Spaces Domes Subject: Re: List of major domes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan B. Thompson wrote: > > Timberline Geodesics has built two very large timber domes. One is the > Tacoma Dome in Washington state, and the other one mentioned is the > Superior Dome at Lake Superior State University in the upper peninsual in > Michigan. They are 630' anf 660' in diameter (don't recall which is which) I'd like to correct the above statement. Both the Superior Dome and the TacomaDome were constructed by: Western Wood Structures PO Box 130 Tulatin, OR 97062 or 800 547-5411(USA) Fax: 503 692-6434 wwsi@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~wwsi/ Tacoma Dome diam is 530' Superior Dome diam is 533' Timberline's dome system (including ours and many other wood frame dome home manufacturers) are limited to probably 100'-135' diam. Check out the massive glulam beams and huge steel connections used on the Tacoma dome. There are 288 triangular wood sections, each weighing 5000 pounds. There were 414 glulam beams using a total of 900,000 board feet of lumber. Dennis Odin Johnson http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 03:23:38 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed aagdii Subject: THE WAR WITH IRAQ Content-Type: text/plain i hope you remember that in my message dated 15 february under the subject blue collar workers i predicted that the war would not happen, i mentioned that i had a dream that i interpreted to be so. now, i wish i have another dream with i million dollar. realy think that i am connected to a cosmic radar at certain times. tagdi ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:32:02 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: palir Subject: Re: List of major domes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a sportshall in Ouluu (Finland) 115m in diameter (approximately = 345'). The struts are glulam and the joints are of concrete. I recently found out (so, maybe others already know this), that the roof = of the Georgia Dome is the first long-span metal tensegrity structure. = The dimensions are 240mx192m (roughly 720'x576'). Igor Draskovic Gunduliceva 46 21000 Split CROATIA palir@st.tel.hr ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:21:43 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: psyclone Organization: InfiNet Subject: Domes and flat rolled steel Anyone know of domes constructed or designed with flat rolled steel? H. B. Grant hbgrant@infinet.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 02:07:04 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Gulf War - Take 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> Yes this is a simplistic presentation of a complex problem. Large problems >> demand a comprehensive view of the issues. I'm sure my solution is >> ignoring a key issue or two that I'm sure some of you will point out to me. >> But regardless of short term consequences that would inevitably arise, I >> feel strongly that energy efficiency is THE solution to this and many other >> global problems. >> >> Brent We also need to end this "USA as the last/only superpower" strut and puffery, which is very damaging to commercial interests needing to collaborate with non-USAers in a business-like environment not tainted by any "us versus them" jingoism and racism. The USA is just another security apparatus, deeply indebted to others, and completely dependent on globally operative entities which have no interest in nationalism -- except as a means of advertising of course (rah rah). Lets keep our flag waving for the Olympics and other such positive revenue-generating events. As for providing you with comfort and entertainment (oil fueled or otherwise), I think you can expect the Grunch will come through -- but without any real need for "we're the best" tin horn patriotism, USAer or otherwise. Kirby --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 01:54:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: List of major domes? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jonathan B. Thompson" wrote: >Timberline Geodesics has built two very large timber domes. One is the >Tacoma Dome in Washington state, and the other one mentioned is the >Superior Dome at Lake Superior State University in the upper peninsual in >Michigan. <> I've been maintaining a list of dome vendors and manufacturers for quite awhile at http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domeman.html. Many of the vendors have home pages, to which I link -- and these websites often point to major domes or other space structures (e.g. Timberline's site mentions the Tacoma dome etc.). Michael Rader has a directory, linked from the top of mine, which is even more extensive. As for tensegrity structures, these are both harder to define and less likely to appear as architectural gizmos, in this day and age. I maintain the page on Ken Snelson (the one Ken himself refers people to) and this points to a tensegrity or two. Kirby Synergetics on the Web >> From: Michael Stutz >> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >> Subject: List of major domes? >> Date: Thursday, February 19, 1998 6:47 PM >> >> Hey, has anyone taken to the task of compiling a list of major geodesic >> domes and tensegrity structures of the world? >> >> (Also, relatedly - and the reason I ask - any noteworthy domes or >tensegrity >> structures worth checking out in the state of Florida? Besides Epcot.) --------------------------------------------------------- Kirby T. Urner http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html 4D Solutions http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ [PGP OK] --------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 05:25:20 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Douglas Widdows <082186@BUD.SWIN.EDU.AU> Organization: Swinburne University of Technology Subject: Re: List of major domes? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Stutz (stutz@DSL.ORG) wrote: : Hey, has anyone taken to the task of compiling a list of major geodesic : domes and tensegrity structures of the world? : (Also, relatedly - and the reason I ask - any noteworthy domes or tensegrity : structures worth checking out in the state of Florida? Besides Epcot.) Well, its not very notworthy, but there is a half-sphere fullerine in Melbourne... More of a decoration than anything else.. Its got a radius of about 30 meters, and sits on top of the entry to Melbourne Central Station.. Its just a frame of 2 inch aluminium.. In fact, it looks like its been added in at the very last moment to supplement the huge cone they have encasing an old shot production tower in. nice structure.. even if it does look out of place. Brian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:57:28 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed aagdii Subject: for those who red synergetics- playing with words experiment Content-Type: text/plain short sentences may help thinking about the ideas. synergetics aimes at a total epistemological reorientation of logic. synergetics makes possible a rational whole number low integral quantations. general laws tend to decelarate. synergetics uses 60 degree coordiantion, quantifies both quantum mechanics and victor geometry. OOOO OOOO OOOOOO OO by starting with Universe we include all critical variables. Univers, like dictinary, is nonsimultanousely recollectable. Universe is a "moving picture", only partily overlapping. system is closed 'victor' configuration, have at least one axis of spin. it can orbit, 'geterbug', torgue, turn inside out. OO we live in "omniderctional" world. events move 'radialy' or tangentialy to your empty set of close packing 13 sphers in your sphere. you can count your observation in spherical trigonmatical terms. this is the omniderectional frame of refrence. infinity is not a number. there is only discontinous surface-99% empty. we move out or go in, go outstairs or instairs, take off or land, orbit to see the sun and eclipsed in 24 hour cycle. all observable events are accelerating. the sun precess the earth at 90 degrees. ecology is great circles tensegrity programing. chlorophil is a biological transister. tagdi p.s i think it reads okay, the speller doesn't work today, next time i take a dictionary incase. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:49:55 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Thomas Glück Subject: Domes in europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, I am new on the list. Does anybody have experience with geodesics espacially in Austria, Italy, Southern-Germany, Swizerland or somewhere herearound. The only thing I know is a 6 frequency geodesic (ca 30 ft) with mirror triangles in the inside and some light and sound installations (very impressive)(Swarovski-Crystal World/Wattens). I got intrested in these things on my trip to the states and I think of making a domehouse (the first at all??) here in Austria. Thomas Glueck Austria ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 03:33:12 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed aagdii Subject: mixing of subjects experiement- read on your own risk-senario 1, Content-Type: text/plain intuition is 60 degree crossing of critical variables and-j mping rather than linear thinking. Fuller Universe is noncontingious, nosynchronous, noncontemporary, non coexisting irreversibly transforming scenario. Andromeda: constellation of the north sky visible from july to december. andromeda nebula in the constellation, a galaxy- small fain patch of light rotates 67 km/s at its edge, and 300km/s at the center. the greeks cast the moon as Selene, the night riding sister of Helios, god of the sun. earth atmosphere is opaque to all radiation shorter than 3000 Angs. natural numbers starts 0,1,2,3 to infinity (the name might be wrong )integers infinity -3,-2,-1,0,1,2,3 ... infinity differential calculus: branch of mathematics that may be applied to such problems as finding the speed of a given object at given time or the steepness of a curve at any point. Descartes, Rene 1596-1650) main contribution to mathematics was his invention of cartesian or analytic geometry which united algebra and geometry. this enabled mathematician to map any equations as a set of points on a graph. x^2 +y^2 = 16 is a graph of circle. x + y= 4 is graph of a line. the higher the degree the more complex the curve on the graph. a helix spirals turn at a constant angle. -- grass family-Granineae is the most important of all plant families from this one family came all our cereal crops. in temperate countries wheat is the chief cereal crop. 10% of any desert can is dunes. in the savannah grass can grow to 10 feet high, little rain in summer, water holes important for large grazers- antelopes, horse, zebra, bison, antelopes, kangaroos. most of the trees with inconspicuous flowers are pollinated by the wind, lime or linen tree is notable exceptions. a tree trunk consists almost entirely of tough fiber and water carrying tubes. flowering plants dominate the vegetable world. wind pollination is very wasteful, most flowering plants rely on insects-trees are plants-to carry their pollen from flower to flower. before a flower can form a seed it must be pollinated. pollen must fall on the stigmas. a plant grows by producing new cells at the tip of its stems and roots. coniferous forest- soft wood, temperate zone forest, evergreen, cone leaves. transistor is a component embedded in electric circuits amplifies or directs electric signals. american barrel=42 american gallons = 159 litters. tagdi p.s even in high school the terms of each speciality is already been fixed to be very distant from the terms of the next speciality. the scafolding of terms, problems, structures of knowldge are set very far from each other, reading linearly will never make one generalist. but still there will be the problem: which of the terms, problems etc to be brought closer. i have a clue, but needs to be worked out- just experimenting. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:51:54 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dbaer@WIZARDSINC.NET Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion Subject: Bill Wood's Dyna-Dome Anyone remember this connector system from the inovative gentleman from Arizona?? I built a 35'5/8 back in 1980, and it's still in great shape! I still have some of the connectors if anyone is interested... Dave -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:16:07 GMT+0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Venter, Dawie" Organization: Infoplan, Cape Regional Office Subject: Re: Bill Wood's Dyna-Dome In-Reply-To: <6d3vi8$jqr$1@nnrp2.dejanews.com> Dave wrote: > Anyone remember this connector system from the inovative gentleman from > Arizona?? Dave I am very curious, please describe the connector or perhaps attach a bitmap graphic to your reply if possible. I am aware of the two variations of the star hub connection system as well as the star plate system - does the connector, you used, differ from these? Dawie Venter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:39:31 -0800 Reply-To: oregon@ordata.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc. Subject: Re: Domes in europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thomas, Our most recent European dome was raised in Northern Germany about a year and a half ago. It was a 45' diameter, 3v, 3/8 sphere dome. We are hoping to do a few more throughout Germany this year. Thomas Glück wrote: > > Hi all, > I am new on the list. > Does anybody have experience with geodesics espacially in Austria, Italy, > Southern-Germany, Swizerland or somewhere herearound. > The only thing I know is a 6 frequency geodesic (ca 30 ft) with mirror > triangles in the inside and some light and sound installations (very > impressive)(Swarovski-Crystal World/Wattens). > I got intrested in these things on my trip to the states and I think of > making a domehouse (the first at all??) here in Austria. > > Thomas Glueck > Austria -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:13:57 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Tognon Marco Subject: Re: Bill Wood's Dyna-Dome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, As Dawie Venter, I'm curious to. I use the starplates now for various projects and keep my eyes open for other possibilitries. I've seen the question Dawie sent you, so if possible, send me some information to. Thank you very much. Marco.Tognon@ping.be ---------- > From: dbaer@WIZARDSINC.NET > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Bill Wood's Dyna-Dome > Date: donderdag 26 februari 1998 15:51 > > Anyone remember this connector system from the inovative gentleman from > Arizona?? I built a 35'5/8 back in 1980, and it's still in great shape! I > still have some of the connectors if anyone is interested... > Dave > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- > http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:26:01 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Tognon Marco Subject: Re: Domes in europe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Thomas, Oregon Dome wrote to you... "Our most recent European dome was raised in Northern Germany about a year and a half ago. It was a 45' diameter, 3v, 3/8 sphere dome." I have been there, together with my carpenter friend. The dome wasn't finished yet, although the owner/builders lived in it. The dome is situated at the end of a dead-end street, surrounded with "normal" houses. The dome is not disturbing the view at all and is in fact very nice to see, from any viewpoint. We drove 650 Km to visit it. Close to Hamburg. We asked the owners if we could come and they whare very pleased to hear from our interest. I took some pictures of it and if interested, I can digitalize and mail them to you. Mean while I will try find the address and telephone number. It's good to hear that we are no longer alone... Cheers, Marco.Tognon@ping.be ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:38:40 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Johnson Organization: Natural Spaces Domes Subject: Re: List of major domes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby Urner wrote: > > "Jonathan B. Thompson" wrote: > > >Timberline Geodesics has built two very large timber domes. One is the > >Tacoma Dome in Washington state, and the other one mentioned is the > >Superior Dome at Lake Superior State University in the upper peninsual in > >Michigan. > > <> > > I've been maintaining a list of dome vendors and manufacturers for > quite awhile at http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domeman.html. > Many of the vendors have home pages, to which I link -- and these > websites often point to major domes or other space structures > (e.g. Timberline's site mentions the Tacoma dome etc.). Michael > Rader has a directory, linked from the top of mine, which is > even more extensive. <> > Kirby > Synergetics on the Web > For those who may have missed my previous post, I'll repeat part of it: Both the Superior Dome and the TacomaDome were constructed by: Western Wood Structures PO Box 130 Tulatin, OR 97062 or 800 547-5411(USA) Fax: 503 692-6434 wwsi@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~wwsi/ Tacoma Dome diam is 530' Superior Dome diam is 533' Timberline's dome system (including ours and many other wood frame dome home manufacturers) are limited to probably 100'-135' diam. Check out WWSI's web site for some great pictures of large domes. Dennis Odin Johnson http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 06:29:28 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: List of major domes? Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Dennis, Can you elaborate as to the dimensions of the Tacoma Dome ? What is the diameter at the base (tension ring /plate) ? What is the theoretical diameter of the sphere ? What is the height from tension ring to zenith ? These are very impressive structures. Thanks for the info/links. -Tony. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 09:37:01 -0600 Reply-To: ega@fastlane.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ernie Aiken Subject: Re: Domes and flat rolled steel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Casa Manana is one such, the first "theater in the round" and is still used as such. There is a picture on my web page--> http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Casa.JPG I wrote about this before (last year) how the dome did not sustain any noticeable damage from a big hail storm (3-4 inch diameter hail) when other property in the area was damaged to the tune of millions of dollars. (Photo taken after the hail storm.) Ernie ---------- > From: psyclone > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Domes and flat rolled steel > Date: Sunday, February 22, 1998 6:21 PM > > Anyone know of domes constructed or designed with flat rolled steel? > > H. B. Grant > hbgrant@infinet.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:16:13 -0600 Reply-To: ega@fastlane.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ernie Aiken Subject: Re: List of major domes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Reunion Tower geodesic is lit up in various stationary or moving patterns as Chuck describes. It's part of the Hyatt hotel, has a restaurant and observation deck, and is worth the visit when you're in Dallas. From the dome obervation deck you can look right down on Dealy Plaza and School Book Depository now a [politically correct] museum on the 6th floor. The Conspiracy Museum which I find more interesting, is across the street & a block over. On a clear day you can see...Ft. Worth! image:http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Reunion.JPG and at the bottom of this page "My Domes" -Dealy Plaza view; takes a few minutes to load--> http://homepage.usr.com/g/geodesic/my_domes/85376.shtml ---------- > From: Chuck Knight > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: List of major domes? > Date: Friday, February 20, 1998 7:29 AM > > > The Reunion Tower in Dallas (Has a Geodesic Dome on top) (Is this right > > ? Is there anyone from Dallas or familiar with it ?) > > Yep, I live about 10 minutes from it, barring downtown traffic. It's > got a beautiful skeletal full-sphere on top of it, with a revolving > restaurant inside of it. > > There's a light bulb at each vertex, and they're lit in patterns...makes > for a very spectacular effect at night. > > The only thing is, I don't know what size it is. I doubt it's in the > list of the biggest domes in the US...it's spectacular, though. > > -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:01:43 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: JFBECKETT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Bill Wood's Dyna-Dome Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: anthony kalenak Subject: Re: Domes and flat rolled steel Comments: To: ega@fastlane.net Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) The CASA is an original Fuller Kaiser Aluminum dome. See my previous post (re: List of Major Domes.) for the book I found it in. It's neat to know it's still in operation. Several of this type of dome were built. What's it like on the inside ? -Tony. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:36:34 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis Johnson Organization: Natural Spaces Domes Subject: Re: List of major domes? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anthony kalenak wrote: > > Dennis, > Can you elaborate as to the dimensions of the Tacoma Dome ? > > What is the diameter at the base (tension ring /plate) ? > What is the theoretical diameter of the sphere ? > What is the height from tension ring to zenith ? > > These are very impressive structures. > Thanks for the info/links. > -Tony. Tacoma Dome Facts (from a 130 page promo booklet); Built 1981 - 1983 (19 months to build) Cost - $44 million (dome roof portion with insulation and roofing cost $4 million) 530' diam, 152' tall (Total height, not the height of the dome shell) Western Wood Structure's Varax Dome system utilizes a spherical framework of glue-laminated triangular timber ribs, connected by patented steel hubs and held together at the base by a concrete tension ring, 42" by 42". Hollis Scott developed and patented the hub, selling the patent to WWSI. The framework is covered by 28,512 2" by 8" tongue and groove hemlock boards; 100,000 board feet of it. There are 288 triangular wood sections, each weighing 5,000 pounds. 414 glulam beams and 1568 glulam purlins. 3,128 steel hangers, 127 steel hubs, 18,798 bolts. 265,000 sq ft of roofing ( Gacoflex urethane exterior sealant) The roof weighs 1,444,000 pounds with everything on it. The Flagstaff, Arizona, Skydome was built by WWSI 5 years before, utilizing the same Varax system; 502' diam more than you ever wanted to know about the Tacoma Dome Thanks Dennis Odin Johnson