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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 00:00:11 -0700
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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 02:48:35 -0600
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From:         Robin Chapman <rjc@MATHS.EX.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Exeter
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)

In article <354893a9.601411515@news.teleport.com>#1/1,
  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
>
> Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >You claimed ownership for him. Your phrase was "de Jong's expression".
>
> I still say "de Jong's expression" (similar to Euler's).  But not
> to make either immortal. I also say "my synergetics" even though
> it's also Fuller's.
>
> >The square of the volume of a tetrahedron is a polynomial in the squares
>      ^^^^^^                                                       ^^^^^^^
>
> I don't usually say "square" for 2nd powering BTW as the triangle
> serves just as well as a model of 2nd powering and is topologically
> simpler, as does the tetrahedron for 3rd powering, which is why
> Gerald's expression is slightly different -- 1^3 is not a cube.

But you still wrote a^2. How do you say this? a triangled?
What about a^3?

Anyway there is a subtle disadvantage with using the regular tetrahedron
as the model for measuring volume, as opposed to the cube and
indeed either the equilateral triangle or the square for measuring area.
One can estimate area of a plane figure, by superimposing a fine square grid
and counting the number of little squares in your given figure. You
can do the same with equilateral triangles. In three-dimensional space
one can do the same with cubes, as we can tessellate space by cubes,
BUT it is impossible to do the same with regular tetrahedra.

> Boils down to a simple conversion constant of course, but also
> has implications for visualization and terminology (not that we
> have to abandon the "old religion" -- when in Rome...).

Yes, you are an advocate of "quadray" coordinates. No doubt you would
label me a slave to "hypercross dogmatics". I admit it. As a slave
of hypercross dogmatics I am forced to choose the most appropriate
coordinate system for the problem at hand (Cartesian, affine, projective,
trilinear, polar, spherical, etc.) while no doubt you as liberated from this
sterile dogma are free to use quadray coordinates for any problem whatsoever.

> Euler's and Gerald's give out different numbers for the same inputs
> -- misleading to name them the same, even if they're similar.

It is misleading not to call them equivalent too.

> >sides. This polynomial is uniquely determined - it's the same whoever
> >derives it. The same is true for simplexes of any given dimension.
> >
>
> I'm also prone to think volume is 4D but that's another story
> (and I don't mean 3D + time). In one of the pages I cited above,
> I use a 4D 4-tuple coordinate system to compute ray tracings of
> volumes, have de Jong's expression tied in as source code, and
> use my distance formula (similar to the Pythagorean) to get the
> six edge lengths.

I presume the formula is something like the square (SORRY triangle) root
of x^2 + y^2 + z^2 + u^2 - xy - xz - xu - yz - yu - zu which must be
easier to work with than the Pythagorean expression: the square (no apology)
root of x^2 + y^2 + z^2.

>
> >> As a curriculum writer, I don't mind it when kids (or adults)
> >> rediscover something on their own and share it, whether they were
> >
> >Good. I've lost count of the number of times my latest brilliant
> >idea has turned out to have been discovered decades or even centuries ago.
> >
>
> Exactly.  You're no doubt brilliant and if anyone comes along and
> tells you to put a lid on it because so-and-so proved whatever

No one has ever told me to put a lid on it, or treated any of my ideas
dismissively. But don't you think it's useful to find out
whether some idea of yours is known, so then you can check it out and see
if you can improve on it?

> "ages ago" then you can be proud you're able to duplicate the
> results of such an august personage (presuming said "me first"
> awardee is indeed august).
>
> A lot of folks, professors especially, seem to delight in citing
> an earlier source to be crushing, as if to say "shaddup kid, yer
> not so smart after all".  That's a dark ages attitude we'd like
> to wipe out.  So callow, so jealous, so mean.  Professors of that
> crushing type were usually crushed themselves at some point, and

Gosh, an authority on academic psychology as well as synergetics!
No doubt you have performed a major survey on exactly which
proportion of professors have these supercilious attitudes, and how many
of them were permanently traumatized by their seniors' casual remarks.

> tend to grow up "kiss-ass" (you claimed ignorance of that idiom,
> just trying to flesh it out for you -- that Pink Floyd tune
> comes to mind as well, know the one?).

Weren't they some popular beat group? Did they have a donkey fixation
(I thought it was pigs)?

>
> >Actually I'd forgotten that this formula was credited to Euler, until
> >you mentioned it. I guess this shows we have different attitudes to
> >priority :-) I'll have to take your word about de Jong's applet.
> >It wouldn't work on my system.
> >
>
> It's in Java 1.1 (Gerald works closely with Sun in the NL and keeps
> his stuff up to date).  You can probably update your browser with
> a patch -- Netscape makes it easy at least.  Your browser is likely
> running Java 1.0.
>
It is: any case it was a rhetorical point --- I can't run the up to
date netscape as my computer's spec is not up to it.

Robin Chapman                           + "They did not have proper
Department of Mathematics               -  palms at home in Exeter."
University of Exeter, EX4 4QE, UK       +
rjc@maths.exeter.ac.uk                  -    Peter Carey,
http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html +      Oscar and Lucinda

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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 02:55:31 -0600
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From:         Robin Chapman <rjc@MATHS.EX.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Exeter
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)

In article <6iafu7$bc2$1@gte1.gte.net>#1/1,
  "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@gte.net> wrote:
>
>  Will somebody on this address list please agree with me and tell Kirby
> that a coordinate system which  is one to one with the XYZ  system is three
> dimensional, not four dimensional!?

I will agree with you on this. It won't make a scrap of difference to Urner
of course.

Robin Chapman                           + "They did not have proper
Department of Mathematics               -  palms at home in Exeter."
University of Exeter, EX4 4QE, UK       +
rjc@maths.exeter.ac.uk                  -    Peter Carey,
http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html +      Oscar and Lucinda


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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 06:10:59 -0600
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From:         Robin Chapman <rjc@MATHS.EX.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Exeter
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)

In article <6ibuoi$dj4$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/2,
  I <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> I presume the formula is something like the square (SORRY triangle) root
> of x^2 + y^2 + z^2 + u^2 - xy - xz - xu - yz - yu - zu which must be
> easier to work with than the Pythagorean expression: the square (no apology)
> root of x^2 + y^2 + z^2.

On second thoughts, the quadray formula will look more like
3x^2 + 3y^2 + 3z^2 + 3u^2 - 2xy - 2xz - 2xu - 2yz - 2yu - 2zu.
I do apologize. I mean these quadray formulae are so much more
memorable than the Cartesian ones :-)

Robin Chapman                           + "They did not have proper
Department of Mathematics               -  palms at home in Exeter."
University of Exeter, EX4 4QE, UK       +
rjc@maths.exeter.ac.uk                  -    Peter Carey,
http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html +      Oscar and Lucinda

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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 04:36:17 -0800
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From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
Organization: gte.net
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 12:35 PM, Kirby Urner <mailto:pdx4d@teleport.com>
wrote:
>"Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@gte.net> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 7:46 AM, Kirby Urner <
>mailto:pdx4d@teleport.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I'm also prone to think volume is 4D but that's another story
>>>(and I don't mean 3D + time).
><<SNIP>>
>>
>> Will somebody on this address list please agree with me and tell Kirby
>>that a coordinate system which  is one to one with the XYZ  system is
three
>>dimensional, not four dimensional!?
>>
>>        Cliff Nelson
>>
>
>Of course you'll find agreement on this Cliff!  What we're all taught
>in school is that three mutual orthogonals constitute a basis for
>saying that space is 3D.
>
>Only Fuller has had the temerity to question this dogma, by suggesting
>that conceptual volume implies both an observer and an observed, that
>we have no way to force our awareness to a more primitive starting
>point than that of a containment (a 'point' in your mind's eye is
>still being observed in its spatial context, is contained by space).
>
>So he bravely tossed 0D...3D as relics (for his own purposes --
>anyone is free to make a new start) and began with 4D as his anchor,
>with weight/energy constituting an additional 'frequency' dimension
>(time-cyclic -- the world of hertz).[1]
>

 And the quadray system you are pushing are points with zero volume! They
are only 3D. They are all tetrahedra with a frequency of zero.

     Cliff Nelson
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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 17:04:59 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>> I don't usually say "square" for 2nd powering BTW as the triangle
>> serves just as well as a model of 2nd powering and is topologically
>> simpler, as does the tetrahedron for 3rd powering, which is why
>> Gerald's expression is slightly different -- 1^3 is not a cube.
>
>But you still wrote a^2. How do you say this? a triangled?
>What about a^3?
>

I might say "triangled" or "tetrahedroned" for rhetorical purposes
(Fuller certainly did), but "to the 2nd power" or "to the 3rd power"
is more my style.

I'll also say "squared" and "cubed" sometimes, depending on the
game I'm playing.  I don't deny myself access to the omnipresent
XYZ or much-hyped hyperdimensional versions thereof (to get my
computer to render the quadray-defined polys at my website,
I had to convert to XYZ anyway, as no ray tracing engine uses
anything but -- the conversion algorithms are fully specified
and built right into my class definitions).

Cite: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadxyz.html

>Anyway there is a subtle disadvantage with using the regular tetrahedron
>as the model for measuring volume, as opposed to the cube and
>indeed either the equilateral triangle or the square for measuring area.

Re triangles, note that *any* such can be subdivided into x^2 similar
subtriangles by intervalling edges into x equal segments and running
parallels in a 3-way cross-hatch.  Quadrilaterals in general do not
permit this.

Cite: http://www.servtech.com/~rwgray/synergetics/s01/p0000.html#100.41

>can do the same with equilateral triangles. In three-dimensional space
>one can do the same with cubes, as we can tessellate space by cubes,
>BUT it is impossible to do the same with regular tetrahedra.
>

This is very true, but making the regular tetrahedron our unit
of volume means the regular octahedron of the same edge length
has a volume of 4 -- and these two complement to fill space,
giving us the octet truss (skeleton of edges interconnecting
centers of 12-around-1 kissing spheres in the fcc).  And not
only the octahedron falls into place with a whole number
volume.  Many other polys do as well:

           Shape               Volume
           -----               ------
           A module             1/24
           B module             1/24
           T module             1/24
           MITE                 1/8
           Coupler              1
           Tetrahedron          1
           Cube                 3
           Octahedron           4
           Rh Triacontahedron   5
           Rh Dodecahedron      6
           Icosahedron         18.51...
           Cuboctahedron       20

           Table: Synergetics Concentric Hierarchy

Cite: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/urner.html (apologies
to any of you who might have checked this recently and gotton some
blurb about "What's an Urner?" with a broken link to a Swiss bank
-- Urner from Uri, 'Land of the Mountain Ox' in Switzerland --
I got my urner.html files mixed up).

There is an irregular tetrahedron which fills space by the way --
the MInimum TEtrahedron (or MITE), with a volume of 1/8 (depicted
on pg. 71 of Coxeter's 'Regular Polytopes' but not dignified with
a name, nor assembled in terms of A and B modules).

Cite: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/modules.html

>Yes, you are an advocate of "quadray" coordinates. No doubt you would
>label me a slave to "hypercross dogmatics". I admit it. As a slave
>of hypercross dogmatics I am forced to choose the most appropriate
>coordinate system for the problem at hand (Cartesian, affine, projective,
>trilinear, polar, spherical, etc.) while no doubt you as liberated from this
>sterile dogma are free to use quadray coordinates for any problem whatsoever.
>

You might want to just paint your own position instead of trying
to characterize mine (including mine about yours).

As you're a professional mathematician maybe you can help me with
this:  I read in a book about Georg Cantor that he was interested
in how the "number of coordinates" might relate (or not) to the
"number of dimensions" we say characterizes a space.  Did he or
did he not raise issues in this neighborhood?  Care to elaborate?

I find quadrays interesting from a pedagogical point of view
because they use 4-tuples to map space, but lose the negative
numbers. I see 4 "basis vectors" coming from the origin (0,0,0,0)
whereas in the Cartesian apparatus I see 6 vectors, even though
three of them are "negative mirrors".  We say only 3 of the six
Cartesian vectors are "basis vectors" and use that to feed the
notion that volume is '3D' (did Cantor have any problem with
this?).

But quadrays are all equally positive, none 'more basic'.  And
there's something minimal about using 4 vectors to map volume.
4 'spokes' is the lowest number you can have and still partition
the surrounding space into equal 'quadrants'.  3 'spokes' (e.g.
the Cartesian positives, without their mirrors) can't 'splay
out' to give a symmetric partitioning of volume (which is
what the complementary negatives do for us -- partitioning
volume into 8 octants).

Anyway, you can add pairs of quadrays (6 combinations) to get
the XYZ apparatus.  So I tell my students they can look at
quadrays as more logically primitive than XYZ (because fewer
spokes), and use them to "build" XYZ -- at which point we "paint"
the axes positive/negative as per usual and continue with
whatever XYZ games.  Quadrays insert themselves in my curriculum
somewhat invisibly therefore, as logical underpinnings of what
we already take for granted.

Cite: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadphil.html

>> Euler's and Gerald's give out different numbers for the same inputs
>> -- misleading to name them the same, even if they're similar.
>
>It is misleading not to call them equivalent too.
>

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.  I certainly don't shy away
from giving either Euler or de Jong plenty of credit for their
respective contributions to the field.  I have a clear conscience
is what's important to me, given I use the hard work of both
of these guys in my own thinking quite a bit. I do want to give
credit where credit is due, but with less emphasis on the "me
first" criterion (see below).

>I presume the formula is something like the square (SORRY triangle) root
>of x^2 + y^2 + z^2 + u^2 - xy - xz - xu - yz - yu - zu which must be
>easier to work with than the Pythagorean expression: the square (no apology)
>root of x^2 + y^2 + z^2.
>

This is close enough.  It was my decision to make the distance from
(0,0,0,0) to (1,0,0,0) be Root(6)/2, i.e. to have the 'home base'
tetrahedron have length 2 edges (because interconnecting centers of
unit-radius spheres in the fcc packing).  Other conventions would
be tolerable no doubt.  Kinda strange to have a 'basis vector' not
have 'unit length' but come to think of it, it didn't matter -- and
I'm breaking so many conventions anyway...

As to the 'memorability' of my distance expression, I agree it's
less so, although one coordinate is always 0 (different one,
depending on which basis vector is unused), so after doing
vector subtraction between P1 and P2, I can always simplify a
bit.

In any case, having such algebra buried as class methods in my
quadray objects (along with the de Jong version of the Euler
thing) shields me from needing to "remember" in that "pop
quiz" sense.  I can happily forget, and just check the source
code when I want to remind myself what's going on in the guts
of this gizmo.  I don't remember all the details of how an engine
works when I drive my Subaru either.  Lots of mathematics is
automated these days -- quadray algorithms just go into the
bit bucket with all the rest of it.

Quadrays were first introduced to me by David Chako on
Synergetics-L BTW (I have a link to the postings).  I added
the distance formula, xyz-quadray conversion algorithms,
source code implementation, text and graphics for the
'quadray papers' at my site.  I also collaborated with
Josef Hasslberger on the CYMT colorized tetrahedron (using
quadrays again).

Cite: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadcolors.html

>No one has ever told me to put a lid on it, or treated any of my ideas
>dismissively.

Lucky you.  I dismiss a lot of ideas, both mine and others --
because I don't see the relevance (I can be pretty blind
sometimes, but on the other hand I pretty good at tuning
in a lot of systems).

>But don't you think it's useful to find out
>whether some idea of yours is known, so then you can check it out and see
>if you can improve on it?
>

Sometimes sure.  But I don't think a kid who figures something out
for him or herself is duty-bound to then go to the library or patent
office and waste hours, days, years trying to find out if this is
already known.  If the kid plans to claim "me first" or "priority"
that's different.  But if you've hit on something brilliant and
just want to move on, making use of what you've learned or
discovered, then by all means go for it.

I can even claim "discovery" if I simply mean by that I "uncovered
it for myself" -- I don't think we should say to a kid:  "no, you
didn't discover anything, Newton knew that long before you were
born." To me, that's a misuse of the term. "I've discovered spring
is a fine time of year" is not something I should be hauled before
the judge for saying.

My theory is the Ivory Tower culture of "me first" obsessing grew
up in tandem with a scarcity model with respect to food and/or
good living -- you had to prove priority at every turn in order
to merit being kept alive in the style to which you'd become
accustomed.  As the historical record filled with "me first"
claims, the disciplines had to subdivide and specialize more
and more, giving more room for newcomer professionals to stake
turf and "be special" in some way.

But in the rush to prove merit, academia has specialized itself
to such a degree that the curriculum has decayed, from the point
of view of latecomers, who now look at a subject like math and
sometimes think there's really no point trying to master it
unless the goal is to gain merit by Ivory Tower criteria, and
the only way to do that is learn hundreds of years of stuff so
as not to be made a fool of when finally staking turf.

That's just too long a road for a lot of kids (longer with every
passing generation) and they give up.  There's something really
stultifying about a discipline in which "the frontier" is
considered so far distant, with so many prerequisites to
getting anywhere close.  With this synergetics stuff, I'm
hoping to move "the frontier" much closer to home, giving
kids a sense of pioneering new and meritorious material where
without as much emphasis on priority (or intellectual property
in general, because profligate generousity with one's ideas,
including software, music, animations, will be rewarded, not
punished).

With the internet and multi-media, the allure of mathematics
is increasing exponentially and I think we'll be breaking away
from the culture of "me first" quite a bit.  With better access
to the historical record, it'll both be easier to organize the
timeline, and less critical who or what was first discovered
by whom, because we'll not be using such stringent criteria to
provide lifestyle security.  So many ways to "value add" by
edit/recombining existing inventory, without having to waste
so much time eking out priority and ownership claims.

In sum, we'll feed you even if you never make a claim to being
"the original inventor/discoverer of...".  That'll cut down on
the bullshit factor enormously, I'm projecting, by giving
teachers more time to design learning experiences, keep things
current and relevant for people new to a subject.  Like,
Bill Nye the Science Guy may not have made any "me first"
discoveries in the annals of science, but he's a damn fine
design scientist nevertheless.

>Gosh, an authority on academic psychology as well as synergetics!
>No doubt you have performed a major survey on exactly which
>proportion of professors have these supercilious attitudes, and how many
>of them were permanently traumatized by their seniors' casual remarks.
>

No, but it'd be an interesting study I'm sure.

>> tend to grow up "kiss-ass" (you claimed ignorance of that idiom,
>> just trying to flesh it out for you -- that Pink Floyd tune
>> comes to mind as well, know the one?).
>
>Weren't they some popular beat group? Did they have a donkey fixation
>(I thought it was pigs)?
>

Still in action I think, though with turnover (the name lives on --
and by the way, which one's 'Pink'?).  Pigs, yes, floating ones.

>>
>It is: any case it was a rhetorical point --- I can't run the up to
>date netscape as my computer's spec is not up to it.
>

If you're at all interested, I think you can maybe patch just the
Java component on whatever Netscape that already runs 1.0 -- w/o
having to download a whole new Netscape.  Maybe I'm wrong about
that -- I patched mine from 1.0 to 1.1 but it was already a
fairly recent version.

In the meantime, I hope the University of Exeter sees its ways
clear to giving you a much better computer.  Finding a mathematician
willing to use the word 'synergetics' in print, even dismissively,
is a rarity.  So many of them seem completely oblivious that such
a philosophy even exists.

Kirby Urner
4D Solutions
Portland, Oregon
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/


---------------------------------------------------------
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4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 17:08:04 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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> And the quadray system you are pushing are points with zero volume! They
>are only 3D. They are all tetrahedra with a frequency of zero.
>
>     Cliff Nelson
>

We were talking about Bucky's use of 4D and what he meant by it.
Let's forget about quadrays, which he didn't need to make his
points (nor do I).

Read about the zerovolume tetrahedron in 'Synergetics' -- even
if zerovolume, it's still conceptually a 4D tetrahedron, strange
as that might sound to a 3D-XYZ 'blockhead' such as yourself.

Kirby

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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 09:41:17 -0800
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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On Fri, May 1, 1998 9:08 AM, Kirby Urner <mailto:pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
>
>> And the quadray system you are pushing are points with zero volume!
>They
>>are only 3D. They are all tetrahedra with a frequency of zero.
>>
>>     Cliff Nelson
>>
>
>We were talking about Bucky's use of 4D and what he meant by it.
>Let's forget about quadrays, which he didn't need to make his
>points (nor do I).
>
>Read about the zerovolume tetrahedron in 'Synergetics' -- even
>if zerovolume, it's still conceptually a 4D tetrahedron, strange
>as that might sound to a 3D-XYZ 'blockhead' such as yourself.
>
>Kirby
>

 You call your company 4D Solutions and yet have no idea of what 4D means.
You think it means (X,Y,Z,0).

All of the work in Synergetics coordinates could and can be translated into
perpendicular coordinates (as Bucky explicitly stated), but it would make
things awkward. And when a tetrahedron of non-vero volume is translated
into perpendicular coordinates, there are four coordinates, not just three.


          Cliff Nelson
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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"Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@gte.net> wrote:

> You call your company 4D Solutions and yet have no idea of what 4D means.
>You think it means (X,Y,Z,0).
>

I've posted exhaustively on what I think Fuller meant by '4D', with
citations back to '4D Timelock' and rolling foward through 'Synergetics 2'.
The first question should be whether my scholarship is on target -- have
I captured Fuller's meaning here?

Then we can look at quadrays, as a secondary topic -- he never used this
gizmo and I don't consider knowing anything about quadrays essential to
getting where he was coming from with this '4D' business.

As for quadrays, I find your (X,Y,Z,0) characterization misleading, as
it implies my X,Y and Z stand for mutual perpendiculars, which they
do not.  (a,b,c,d) with a,b,c,d = positive scalars, with at least one
of these 0, is more accurate.  The 0 might be in any position e.g.

(34.1, 0, 18.9, 6)
(04.9  3  10.1, 0)

are both equally valid 4-tuples and point to unique points relative
to the origin (0,0,0,0).

Just a few minutes ago, I answered a query from some dude at the
London Life Insurance Company in Canada, the text of which I'll cc:
here for everyone's edification (some details X'd to protect
confidentiality):

========

[XXX] --

You have four basis vectors pointing from the center of a
tetrahedron to its four corners (a tripod of vectors and
a fourth sticking straight up).  Any location in the volume
surrounding (0,0,0,0) may be expressed as a sum of three of
these four vectors (one of them will remain unused, depending
on where our point is).

Just stretch (i.e. scale), clone (translate), and place the
vectors tip-to-tale (without changing orientation -- what
we call "vector addition" as per usual) and you've got your
result i.e.:

P1 = a(1,0,0,0) + b(0,1,0,0) + c(0,0,1,0) + d(0,0,0,1)
where a,b,c,d are positive scaling factors, and where
at least one of these factors is 0.  P1 is any point in
space.

Maybe my 'quadpod' analogy will help.  Imagine a rocket ship
with four thrusters, aimed as described (to the corners of a
tetrahedron).  Some blast-mix out through the rockets (exact
magnitudes courtesy of on-board computer) will enable our
pod to move smoothly, in a straight line, towards any target.

The Cartesian rocketship (XYZ) is overbuilt in contrast, using
six thrusters instead of just four, using some to counter
others at 180 degrees (unnecessary, if the goal is simply to
move in any direction using thruster-sums).

Hope this helps.

Kirby

PS:  I use quadrays for pedagogical purposes, as a tool for
philosophy department types wanting to shake things up a bit
re the philo of math.  I also found the system practical and
usable enough for building up a database of polys, with mostly
positive integer coordinates (exceptions are the 5-fold symmetric),
as per the HTML papers at my site.  But I haven't worked out a
whole set of algorithms in parallel with the XYZ, contrived a
host of 'canned' vector ops and so on.  As quadray vectors are
convertible to XYZ, I can always do so, use something from the
XYZ library (vast), and then convert back to quadrays.  This
may sound like cheating but it's not, especially in light of
the fact that I can use quadrays to build the XYZ apparatus
in the first place.

PPS:  the original quadrays concept was first introduced to
me by David Chako, at the time a VP at [XXX] in New York as
I recall.  I fleshed out his idea with some additional features
and details and imported the whole gizmo into the philosophy
department, where it does service on the front lines against
creeping mindless dogmatism.

|At 01:22 PM 5/1/98 -0400, you wrote:
|
|Mr. Urner,
|
| A quick question if you don't mind. Using a NSEW analogy, if I start at
|point (0,0,0,0) and continue to go North , instead of moving a straight line
|(on a flat floor), wouldn't I be moving on an incline (walking up stairs)? I
|still trying to visualize how an 4D object moves in space (translation,
|rotation, scaling, etc.).
|
|thanks,
|[XX]
|
|-----------------------------------------------------
|London Life Insurance Company, London, Ontario, Canada.

====

>All of the work in Synergetics coordinates could and can be translated into
>perpendicular coordinates (as Bucky explicitly stated), but it would make
>things awkward. And when a tetrahedron of non-vero volume is translated
>into perpendicular coordinates, there are four coordinates, not just three.
>
>
>          Cliff Nelson
>

As I've said many times before, I think you overly confuse things by
talking about a tetrahedron having 4-tuple coordinates.  Points have
coordinates and you define a tetrahedron with four points not in the
same plane. In XYZ, that means 4 x 3 or 12 distinct numbers.  In
quadrays we'd need 16, but with no need for negatives.

Now I realize you can create an apparatus where dialing in 4 parameters
will get you a regular tetrahedron by some algorithm (as you have defined
in a Mathematica worksheet -- which you can't assume I haven't seen BTW,
even if I maybe haven't), but that's not an excuse to call these
parameters "coordinates" in my book.

Quadray 4-tuples are true "coordinates" because the quadray apparatus
is very like the Cartesian one, but with fewer spokes.

Again, forgetting all about coordinate system gizmos, of which there
are a great many, Fuller was saying that containment is primitive and
furthermore that the simplest container, the box with the fewest sides,
is the tetrahedron ("sphere" not simpler because he's using only wire-
frames -- Euler's E,F and V -- to define stuff and "spheres" are
therefore high frequency networks e.g. his classic icosasphere).

Given the primal nature of containment, Fuller used his '4D' to circle
some of the tetrahedron's distinguishing characteristics (4 vertices,
4 facets) and to vector "dimension" (the 'D' part) away from its more
conventional usage patterns, into self-consistent (and I think valid
and comprehensible) usage patterns of his own.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 13:28:40 -0800
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From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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On Fri, May 1, 1998 12:00 PM, Kirby Urner <mailto:pdx4d@teleport.com>
wrote:
>"Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@gte.net> wrote:
>
>> You call your company 4D Solutions and yet have no idea of what 4D
>means.
>>You think it means (X,Y,Z,0).
>>
>
>I've posted exhaustively on what I think Fuller meant by '4D', with
>citations back to '4D Timelock' and rolling foward through 'Synergetics
2'.
>The first question should be whether my scholarship is on target -- have
>I captured Fuller's meaning here?

 No.

Synergetics coordinates can be transformed into perpendicular coordinates.
That is what Bucky Fuller said.

>Then we can look at quadrays, as a secondary topic -- he never used this
>gizmo and I don't consider knowing anything about quadrays essential to
>getting where he was coming from with this '4D' business.
>
>As for quadrays, I find your (X,Y,Z,0) characterization misleading, as
>it implies my X,Y and Z stand for mutual perpendiculars, which they
>do not.  (a,b,c,d) with a,b,c,d = positive scalars, with at least one
>of these 0, is more accurate.  The 0 might be in any position e.g.
>

 First you say that you transform quadrays into perpendicular XYZ to graph
them, and they equal (X,Y,Z,0), and then you say it is misleading.
>
>====
>
>>All of the work in Synergetics coordinates could and can be translated
into
>>perpendicular coordinates (as Bucky explicitly stated), but it would make
>>things awkward. And when a tetrahedron of non-vero volume is
>translated
>>into perpendicular coordinates, there are four coordinates, not just
three.
>>
>>
>>          Cliff Nelson
>>
>
>As I've said many times before, I think you overly confuse things by
>talking about a tetrahedron having 4-tuple coordinates.  Points have
>coordinates and you define a tetrahedron with four points not in the
>same plane. In XYZ, that means 4 x 3 or 12 distinct numbers.  In
>quadrays we'd need 16, but with no need for negatives.
>

No. I define a tetrahedron by four numbers representing the perpendicular
displacement of the four enclosing planes, the way it says to do it in
Synergetics 1 & 2.

Synergetics coordinates can be transformed into perpendicular coordinates
and vice-versa. Whether you like it or not, that is what Bucky Fuller said,
and what I do to graph them.

    Cliff Nelson
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:

>But quadrays are all equally positive, none 'more basic'.  And
>there's something minimal about using 4 vectors to map volume.
>4 'spokes' is the lowest number you can have and still partition
>the surrounding space into equal 'quadrants'.  3 'spokes' (e.g.
>the Cartesian positives, without their mirrors) can't 'splay
>out' to give a symmetric partitioning of volume (which is
>what the complementary negatives do for us -- partitioning
>volume into 8 octants).
>

To be more precise, 3 vectors might "splay" symmetrically in
a plane at 120 degrees (Mercedes-Benz logo) to divide volume
into two halves, but these spokes won't vector-sum to span
volume, i.e. all grow/shrink scaling, cloning and sliding of
vectors into tip-to-tail zigzags will keep us stuck on the
flatlander plane.

With 4 vectors splayed to the vertices of a regular tetrahedron
(or through face centers -- same diff = to the vertices of the
dual), we have a minimal space-spanning set. Although we might
define a vector reversing 'negatation' operation -- and in fact
do so, to give meaning to -(1,0,0,0) -- 'vector reversal' is
not needed to span volume.  Positive scaling (which includes
shrinking, but without an orientation switch) will do fine.

In XYZ, on the other hand, the positive basis vectors alone
are helpless to reach all of volume, but are stuck in the
first octant (the 3 positives define an asymmetric partitioning
of space).  That's why vector reversal (an orientation-changing
operation) is required (to restore symmetry), and yet the
"negative mirrors" that comprise 3 of the 6 XYZ spokes aren't
dignified as "basis vectors" in their own right for some reason
(because left is superior to right? because 'positive' is a
priori while 'negative' is derivative?  why so?).

This is philosophy of mathematics here, as we're questioning
design-decisions, investigating conventions and terminology.
Some call these 'foundational' investigations but that's just
one metaphor we might choose. To paraphrase Wittgenstein re
mathematical logic: it underpins the superstructure the way
a painted foundation upholds a painted tower.  In a lot of
ways, systems just hang together spherically in zero G (a
network, connecting around circumferentially, everywhichway
-- do we trust it? is it secure?) -- the idea of "up" and
"down" ain't so relevant in logical space ("in" "out" and
"around" make more sense as primary freedoms).

Kirby

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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 19:33:20 -0700
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Hello,
        I am a member of Unity Clear Lake Center in Lake county.  We are thinking
of building a church on the geodesic design.  Any information that you can
give me I would appreciate it.  I know very little about domes and I would
like to learn.  Thank You and Blessings!  Pat
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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 23:33:55 GMT
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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"Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@gte.net> wrote:

>>The first question should be whether my scholarship is on target -- have
>>I captured Fuller's meaning here?
>
> No.
>
>Synergetics coordinates can be transformed into perpendicular coordinates.
>That is what Bucky Fuller said.
>

So, what's the problem?

He's decoupling "dimension" from "gizmo used" with his 4D trajectory
(I think Cantor was sniffing up the same trail -- let's see what
Dr. Chapman has to say (I've interviewed a good many mathematicians
on this topic already)).

You can use XYZ, quadrays, whatever.  That's a machine, a clockworks,
an apparatus, a software device, a memory management scheme.  Regardless
of what you put in there, the volume is conceptually and prefrequency
4D (in Fuller's language, which anyone can learn and make their own).

A tetrahedron is like the most primitive logo for volume, as is a
triangle for a plane (but then planes float in volume -- we can't
think of them otherwise -- I'll still say 2D for shorthand, since
that's laymanese for 'flat like a pancake', which is how I think
of planes (not 'infinitely thin' and not 'infinite' either --
dispensable greek metaphysics, too ghostly and pale, too unreal)).

XYZ vectors point to the vertices of an octahedron, or through the
mid-edges of a regular tetrahedron (why I sometimes call them e-rays).
That octahedron is 4D.  An icosahedron is 4D.  Any blob is 4D,
including a zerovolume point (might be hyperlinked though -- VRML
supports this).

In contrast, a rhombic triacontahedron with butterflies and acorns
around it is 4D+ (more than 4D because we've added energy to the
picture, frequency, fleshed out purely Platonic angularly-defined
shapes with time-size attributes (at least in the mind's eye)).

>>As for quadrays, I find your (X,Y,Z,0) characterization misleading, as
>>it implies my X,Y and Z stand for mutual perpendiculars, which they
>>do not.  (a,b,c,d) with a,b,c,d = positive scalars, with at least one
>>of these 0, is more accurate.  The 0 might be in any position e.g.
>>
>
> First you say that you transform quadrays into perpendicular XYZ to graph
>them, and they equal (X,Y,Z,0), and then you say it is misleading.

They don't equal (X,Y,Z,0), I never said that.  I have a web page
giving the algorithms for going back and forth between quadrays and
XYZ, including in matrix notation, but it's not like you just go:

Quadrays      XYZ

(2 3 4 0) --> (2 3 4)

or

XYZ           Quadrays

(1 2 3)  -->  (1 2 3 0)

or something.  It's a little more complicated than that.

Sounds like you've never bothered to study what quadrays are about,
despite their easy availability.  This is typical of your lazy,
'shoot first, check for a target later' approach.

>
>No. I define a tetrahedron by four numbers representing the perpendicular
>displacement of the four enclosing planes, the way it says to do it in
>Synergetics 1 & 2.
>

I'm familiar with that passage, but then quadrays may be taken as
following the same instruction:  the 4 basis vectors are perpendicular
to the faces of a regular tetrahedron (going to the vertices of its
dual).

Best wishes with your invention Cliff.  I just wish you'd stop
saying I don't know what I'm talking about, without doing the work
necessary to make your case.  I take a more live and let live
approach.  You seem to have a real problem with competition.

Re:  the synergetics coordinate system (my view thereof)

Fuller was basically showing that when you're communicating with
humans, you get away with a lot of a precise and geometrically
sophisticated nature without over-indulging in symbolic manipulation
games which are great for running chips (if turned into computer
codes) but are too opaque, too crypto-compressed, for most of
humanity. So he self-disciplined himself to write 'Synergetics'
using a more narrative, humanities-style language, something
layfolks can parse, not just computers.  This is a feature of
his philosophy, not a bug or short-coming.

The 'coordinate system of nature' was the so-called 'isotropic
vector matrix' (IVM) or octet truss, important to Alexander
Graham Bell as well, and which metaphysical stage-setting he
imparted to his students minus much of the symbolic claptrap
we associate with 'hard core mathematics' but including a lot
of key terms we're more used to seeing in philosophy texts --
which is partly how come at least some synergetics ended up
as required reading for today's philosophers and/or led to
the erosion of the "doctor of philosophy" degree (a paper
security) for those fuddy-duds failing to keep up with their
homework.

>Synergetics coordinates can be transformed into perpendicular coordinates
>and vice-versa. Whether you like it or not, that is what Bucky Fuller said,
>and what I do to graph them.
>
>    Cliff Nelson

The more awkward XYZ-informed languages we use with kids today pack
in less information per time unit than we'll be seeing in a more
synergetics-informed curriculum, especially when more of our
animations start getting out and about.

We'll still use the vast library of existing algorithms of course,
whatever their coordinate-framing assumptions (many of them works
of pure genius) even as we do a better job of schooling our
imaginations to work more directly with the isotropic vector matrix,
without so much mediating awkwardness.

Fuller's 'coordinating system' was his synergetics language as
shared, not some future symbolica ala quadrays or your Mathematica
thing, although such 'analytic' devices certainly don't hurt our
cause.  Synergetics, a work in the humanities, aims at schooling
our reflexes on the human side of the cell-silicon interface,
in the way Java is aimed at putting electrons through their
paces on the other side of the I/AI divide.

We will be evolving this language of course (as he was, up to
the end), but with strong ties to laymanese, lingua franca, the
vernacular, always -- and not as a popularization of something
with an "inner core" that's couched in some other more "crypto-
opaque" language (this is not Kabalism).

Synergetics is anchored in "everyday mind" as a self-discipline,
as a real world philosophy -- which isn't to say that all that
other stuff is going away, or should.  Certainly we'll be adding
to our software library of Java, Logo and xBase applications and
whatever else (and certainly I'll always have a place in my heart
for APL).

Synergetics is not a "replacement discipline" for much of what
already passes for science (racism is pseudoscience), is not
an "in lieu of" for crystallography for example.  Synergetics,
as defined by Bucky himself is:

  The integration of geometry and philosophy in
  a single conceptual system providing a common language
  and accounting for both the physical and metaphysical.
                             Synergetics 251.50


And that's what I use for intro on my banner page at 'Synergetics
on the Web' (winner of a Dr. Matrix award for science excellence).

Cite: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html

At least this is what I see as Bucky's hoped-for trajectory, and
my FAQ re 'pseudo-synergetics' is designed to make it harder for
future Fuller Schoolers to retreat into any dark ages scholaticism,
given all the hard work we've done to dig out of such a hell hole
already.

Kirby

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Date:         Fri, 1 May 1998 16:50:26 -0800
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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Sorry Kirby, but I don't believe anyone can be so obtuse. I don't think you
are even trying. So, I'm signing off.

     Cliff Nelson

On Fri, May 1, 1998 3:33 PM, Kirby Urner <mailto:pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
>"Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@gte.net> wrote:
>
>>>The first question should be whether my scholarship is on target -- have
>>>I captured Fuller's meaning here?
>>
>> No.
>>
>>Synergetics coordinates can be transformed into perpendicular
>coordinates.
>>That is what Bucky Fuller said.
>>
>
>So, what's the problem?
>
>He's decoupling "dimension" from "gizmo used" with his 4D trajectory
>(I think Cantor was sniffing up the same trail -- let's see what
>Dr. Chapman has to say (I've interviewed a good many mathematicians
>on this topic already)).
>
>You can use XYZ, quadrays, whatever.  That's a machine, a clockworks,
>an apparatus, a software device, a memory management scheme.
>Regardless
>of what you put in there, the volume is conceptually and prefrequency
>4D (in Fuller's language, which anyone can learn and make their own).
>
>A tetrahedron is like the most primitive logo for volume, as is a
>triangle for a plane (but then planes float in volume -- we can't
>think of them otherwise -- I'll still say 2D for shorthand, since
>that's laymanese for 'flat like a pancake', which is how I think
>of planes (not 'infinitely thin' and not 'infinite' either --
>dispensable greek metaphysics, too ghostly and pale, too unreal)).
>
>XYZ vectors point to the vertices of an octahedron, or through the
>mid-edges of a regular tetrahedron (why I sometimes call them e-rays).
>That octahedron is 4D.  An icosahedron is 4D.  Any blob is 4D,
>including a zerovolume point (might be hyperlinked though -- VRML
>supports this).
>
>In contrast, a rhombic triacontahedron with butterflies and acorns
>around it is 4D+ (more than 4D because we've added energy to the
>picture, frequency, fleshed out purely Platonic angularly-defined
>shapes with time-size attributes (at least in the mind's eye)).
>
>>>As for quadrays, I find your (X,Y,Z,0) characterization misleading, as
>>>it implies my X,Y and Z stand for mutual perpendiculars, which they
>>>do not.  (a,b,c,d) with a,b,c,d = positive scalars, with at least one
>>>of these 0, is more accurate.  The 0 might be in any position e.g.
>>>
>>
>> First you say that you transform quadrays into perpendicular XYZ to
>graph
>>them, and they equal (X,Y,Z,0), and then you say it is misleading.
>
>They don't equal (X,Y,Z,0), I never said that.  I have a web page
>giving the algorithms for going back and forth between quadrays and
>XYZ, including in matrix notation, but it's not like you just go:
>
>Quadrays      XYZ
>
>(2 3 4 0) --> (2 3 4)
>
>or
>
>XYZ           Quadrays
>
>(1 2 3)  -->  (1 2 3 0)
>
>or something.  It's a little more complicated than that.
>
>Sounds like you've never bothered to study what quadrays are about,
>despite their easy availability.  This is typical of your lazy,
>'shoot first, check for a target later' approach.
>
>>
>>No. I define a tetrahedron by four numbers representing the perpendicular
>>displacement of the four enclosing planes, the way it says to do it in
>>Synergetics 1 & 2.
>>
>
>I'm familiar with that passage, but then quadrays may be taken as
>following the same instruction:  the 4 basis vectors are perpendicular
>to the faces of a regular tetrahedron (going to the vertices of its
>dual).
>
>Best wishes with your invention Cliff.  I just wish you'd stop
>saying I don't know what I'm talking about, without doing the work
>necessary to make your case.  I take a more live and let live
>approach.  You seem to have a real problem with competition.
>
>Re:  the synergetics coordinate system (my view thereof)
>
>Fuller was basically showing that when you're communicating with
>humans, you get away with a lot of a precise and geometrically
>sophisticated nature without over-indulging in symbolic manipulation
>games which are great for running chips (if turned into computer
>codes) but are too opaque, too crypto-compressed, for most of
>humanity. So he self-disciplined himself to write 'Synergetics'
>using a more narrative, humanities-style language, something
>layfolks can parse, not just computers.  This is a feature of
>his philosophy, not a bug or short-coming.
>
>The 'coordinate system of nature' was the so-called 'isotropic
>vector matrix' (IVM) or octet truss, important to Alexander
>Graham Bell as well, and which metaphysical stage-setting he
>imparted to his students minus much of the symbolic claptrap
>we associate with 'hard core mathematics' but including a lot
>of key terms we're more used to seeing in philosophy texts --
>which is partly how come at least some synergetics ended up
>as required reading for today's philosophers and/or led to
>the erosion of the "doctor of philosophy" degree (a paper
>security) for those fuddy-duds failing to keep up with their
>homework.
>
>>Synergetics coordinates can be transformed into perpendicular
>coordinates
>>and vice-versa. Whether you like it or not, that is what Bucky Fuller
said,
>>and what I do to graph them.
>>
>>    Cliff Nelson
>
>The more awkward XYZ-informed languages we use with kids today pack
>in less information per time unit than we'll be seeing in a more
>synergetics-informed curriculum, especially when more of our
>animations start getting out and about.
>
>We'll still use the vast library of existing algorithms of course,
>whatever their coordinate-framing assumptions (many of them works
>of pure genius) even as we do a better job of schooling our
>imaginations to work more directly with the isotropic vector matrix,
>without so much mediating awkwardness.
>
>Fuller's 'coordinating system' was his synergetics language as
>shared, not some future symbolica ala quadrays or your Mathematica
>thing, although such 'analytic' devices certainly don't hurt our
>cause.  Synergetics, a work in the humanities, aims at schooling
>our reflexes on the human side of the cell-silicon interface,
>in the way Java is aimed at putting electrons through their
>paces on the other side of the I/AI divide.
>
>We will be evolving this language of course (as he was, up to
>the end), but with strong ties to laymanese, lingua franca, the
>vernacular, always -- and not as a popularization of something
>with an "inner core" that's couched in some other more "crypto-
>opaque" language (this is not Kabalism).
>
>Synergetics is anchored in "everyday mind" as a self-discipline,
>as a real world philosophy -- which isn't to say that all that
>other stuff is going away, or should.  Certainly we'll be adding
>to our software library of Java, Logo and xBase applications and
>whatever else (and certainly I'll always have a place in my heart
>for APL).
>
>Synergetics is not a "replacement discipline" for much of what
>already passes for science (racism is pseudoscience), is not
>an "in lieu of" for crystallography for example.  Synergetics,
>as defined by Bucky himself is:
>
>  The integration of geometry and philosophy in
>  a single conceptual system providing a common language
>  and accounting for both the physical and metaphysical.
>                             Synergetics 251.50
>
>
>And that's what I use for intro on my banner page at 'Synergetics
>on the Web' (winner of a Dr. Matrix award for science excellence).
>
>Cite: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html
>
>At least this is what I see as Bucky's hoped-for trajectory, and
>my FAQ re 'pseudo-synergetics' is designed to make it harder for
>future Fuller Schoolers to retreat into any dark ages scholaticism,
>given all the hard work we've done to dig out of such a hell hole
>already.
>
>Kirby
>
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
>4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
>---------------------------------------------------------
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 May 1998 02:48:51 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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"Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@gte.net> wrote:

>Sorry Kirby, but I don't believe anyone can be so obtuse. I don't think you
>are even trying. So, I'm signing off.
>
>     Cliff Nelson
>

Very wasteful to quote that whole thing back to me with just a
line or two at the top.  You should learn your netiquette, on
top of your synergetics. You seem to have no clue about either.

Take care.  I suggest you stop bad-mouthing my work unless you
have something more intelligent to say about it.  If you ever
do a website, I'll link to it.

Urner out.

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 May 1998 17:40:40 -0800
Reply-To:     bward@metro.net
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From:         Bruce Ward <bward@METRO.NET>
Organization: chh yeh right…
Subject:      Re: Sunsight/Sunclipse
Comments: To: "C. J. Monahan" <monahan@mail.eden.com>
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Casey Monahan said:
>I thought Fuller recommended sun in (as in sun comes into view) and sun >out.

Kirby Urner says Gene Fowler said:
>> 'suntake' and 'suncut' -- Hollywood-informed replacements

I've been trying unsuccessfully to find references in some of Fuller's
books for his use of 'sunsight' and 'sunclipse'.  I recall him
explaining his use of these terms at various speakings I attended.

We are rolled into sight of the sun as a function of the Earth's
rotation; the sun does not 'come' into view, nor do we 'take' anything.
As we are rotated shadyside, our view of the sun is eclipsed by the
horizon; the sun does not set, nor does it go 'out', nor do we 'cut'
anything.

In and out relate to (and are reserved for) navigable
vectors/directions.

'Take' and 'cut' are active verbs.  In this application, we do no such
thing; they are irrelevant and wrong.  They are as wrongly misinforming
sensorially as 'rise ' and 'set'.

My couple of kopecks worth.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 May 1998 18:08:18 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Sunsight/Sunclipse
Comments: To: Bruce Ward <bward@metro.net>
In-Reply-To:  <354BCAC3.1129@metro.net>
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On Sat, 2 May 1998, Bruce Ward wrote:
> Casey Monahan said:
> >I thought Fuller recommended sun in (as in sun comes into view) and sun >out.
>
> Kirby Urner says Gene Fowler said:
> >> 'suntake' and 'suncut' -- Hollywood-informed replacements
>
> I've been trying unsuccessfully to find references in some of Fuller's
> books for his use of 'sunsight' and 'sunclipse'.  I recall him
> explaining his use of these terms at various speakings I attended.

Consult "Utopia or Oblivion" and "Everything I Know" among other sources.

-T.

--
  Trevor Blake box2321@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/
  Post Office Box 2321, Portland Oregon 97208-2321, United States
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 May 1998 13:14:25 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Sunsight/Sunclipse
In-Reply-To:  <354BCAC3.1129@metro.net>
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>'Take' and 'cut' are active verbs.  In this application, we do no such
>thing; they are irrelevant and wrong.  They are as wrongly misinforming
>sensorially as 'rise ' and 'set'.
>

Are you quite convinced?

'See' is an active verb too ya know.  The movie metaphors help with
'dawning awareness' -- the sense that you, the one with the brain-TV
studio (another Fullerism) have a role to play in 'getting the
experience on tape'.

When Hollywood types say 'roll camera, take two!', they mean you're
grabbing some frames (to sleep: "grab some z's"), so when you're
aware of the sun's rays getting to you, you might think of that as
the start of a 'take'.  Then, when the sun is taken out, by whatever
obstruction (earth, moon, building), that's a 'cut' in your 'take
of the sun'.

Anyway, I'm not heavily invested in any of this.  Like I say, these
were proposals from Gene Fowler, not Buckyisms, nor Kirbyisms --
and Gene is not into dogmatism, just likes to roll words around
for look and feel purposes.

But I do like the Hollywood angle in some respects.

>My couple of kopecks worth.
>

Gracias por los kopecks.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 May 1998 19:07:30 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      A Simple Bolted PVC Geodesic Strut Design
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Here's how I put together the framework for the greenhouse...

    http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/pvcstruts

--

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 May 1998 16:36:05 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: A Simple Bolted PVC Geodesic Strut Design
Comments: cc: monkey@one.net
In-Reply-To:  <354CF8B2.135D3FA2@one.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 07:07 PM 5/3/98 -0400, David Anderson wrote:
>Here's how I put together the framework for the greenhouse...
>
>    http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/pvcstruts
>
>--
>
>- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
>

Very well illustrated and clearly explained -- the whole site,
from chord factor calculation to the nuts and bolts of hubs
and assembly.  Definitely one of the better 'how to' geodesic
dome sites, including with Java source code to boot. Bravo!

I'll definitely be adding a link from my 'Synergetics on the Web'
from near http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/dome.html (probably
I'll do a new 'resources' page instead of linking directly to
Rick Bono's site, which I also highly recommend -- more freeware
and other goodies, especially for those into playing with the
full geodesic sphere from a purely geometric point of view).

The only thing I missed seeing, and was very curious about,
was any photographs of the finished prototypes.  Got those?

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 May 1998 19:45:19 -0400
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From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Re: A Simple Bolted PVC Geodesic Strut Design
Comments: To: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
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> The only thing I missed seeing, and was very curious about,
> was any photographs of the finished prototypes.  Got those?
>
> Kirby

Ah, but for a scanner. I'm looking to get another system in the next
month or two and that'll probably have a scanner (and a lot more memory
so I can write some killer AI apps in Java) - when I'm there I'll put up
a dome gallery...

--

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 May 1998 18:35:17 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      MSNBC - MIT envisions the home of the future
              (http://www.msnbc.com/news/162724.
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 May 1998 19:30:59 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      BUILDING TECH PROG
Comments: To: wjm@mit.edu
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William J. Mitchell
Dean, School of Architecture and Planning
Massachusetts Institute of Technology

Dear Sir,

I certainly hope that the ideas of R. Buckminster Fuller are seriously
included in MIT's  "Building Technology Program"
(http://web.mit.edu/bt/www/bt.html), otherwise it would seem to appear that
a cruel hoax and intellectual fraud may being perpetrated on your students.

Sincerely,

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 May 1998 22:51:45 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
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From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Re: BUILDING TECH PROG
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Way to go Joe!

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 10:40 PM
Subject: BUILDING TECH PROG


>William J. Mitchell
>Dean, School of Architecture and Planning
>Massachusetts Institute of Technology
>
>Dear Sir,
>
>I certainly hope that the ideas of R. Buckminster Fuller are seriously
>included in MIT's  "Building Technology Program"
>(http://web.mit.edu/bt/www/bt.html), otherwise it would seem to appear that
>a cruel hoax and intellectual fraud may being perpetrated on your students.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>****************************************
>* Joe S. Moore
>* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
>* joemoore@cruzio.com
>* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
>* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>****************************************
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 May 1998 20:55:42 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: BUILDING TECH PROG
In-Reply-To:  <000101bd7704$ac8df180$dcdae3a5@kelp220.cruzio.com>
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Joe --

Re: MSNBC web story re House of the Future (MIT consortium)

I don't think these ideas will completely slip through the
cracks no matter what happens re MIT.  Like, I've already
shared my

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bworks.html

with Asian concerns (and Motorola) and sparked some interest.

Which ideas we attribute to Fuller, which to Jay Baldwin, which
to you... that's something we can sort out at our leisure.  In
the meantime, lets get on with the storyboarding!

Thanks for all you hard work.  Keep it up.

Kirby
4D Solutions

PS:  have you seen 'Lost in Space' yet?  Good take of a
'Garden of Eden' dome home (plus that DaMert BuckyBall
on Will's toy shelf -- gotta be quick to catch it).

Encl: edited copy of one of my replies (I get lots of
inquiries re domes, this one representative), copy of
yours to MIT Building Tech.


=======
At 01:12 PM 5/2/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Kirby,
>
>I am looking into purchasing a dome home.  Do you have a company that you
seem
>to trust more than others?  Also,  are they really energy efficient, as well
>as more cost efficient to build?
>I live in Kansas City, MO.  Which company would be worth looking into for
>plans, shipping, etc.  Right now, I like the Geodome Woodworks Sky Gazer
plan.
>You can find it at www.geodomesinc.com.
>Please respond. I'm not sure who to trust.
>

I maintain http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domeman.html which
presumably you've seen, but I don't get into the business of
recommending this or that for reliability at this point,
since I haven't done business with any of them.  Sorry.

In principle domes are efficient, but I also tend to view
them as in their infancy.  Those models on the market to day
will look very primitive, even if classics in their day, is
my hope.

In my view, just about all of today's domes are too similar
in design, materials and conception to regular box homes.

I hope to live long enough to spend some time in the models
which today are more likely to appear only in science
fiction, like in 'Lost in Space', the newly released movie
-- quick shot of a 'garden of eden' dome inside of which
is a more Frank Lloyd Wright style home plus garden --
presumably the home is more like a theater prop, not needing
the same kind of insulation and reinforcement against high
winds, which is what the dome provides).

>Also,  this is my sister's e-mail address.  Please don't reply via this
>address.  My e-mail address is  [XXX]
>
>Thank you for your time,
>
>[XXX]
>

Kirby

========

At 07:30 PM 5/3/98 -0700, Joe S. Moore wrote:
>William J. Mitchell
>Dean, School of Architecture and Planning
>Massachusetts Institute of Technology
>
>Dear Sir,
>
>I certainly hope that the ideas of R. Buckminster Fuller are seriously
>included in MIT's  "Building Technology Program"
>(http://web.mit.edu/bt/www/bt.html), otherwise it would seem to appear that
>a cruel hoax and intellectual fraud may being perpetrated on your students.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>****************************************
>* Joe S. Moore
>* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
>* joemoore@cruzio.com
>* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
>* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>****************************************

========
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 May 1998 12:07:50 -0700
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From:         Lee Fisher <leefi@MICROSOFT.COM>
Subject:      geodesic greenhouse kit?

Hi,

If anyone has pointers to geodesic greenhouse kit manufacturers, or
available designs, I would greatly appreciate it.

[This is for my neighbor, an Fuller-fan and ex-hippie; her old non-geodesic
greenhouse was damaged by a tree recently...]

Thanks,
Lee
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 May 1998 13:29:23 -0700
Reply-To:     "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@teleport.com>
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: geodesic greenhouse kit?
Comments: To: Lee Fisher <leefi@MICROSOFT.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <ED7E7104F236D11190D800805FFE89950824E5C9@red-msg-49.dns.microsoft.com>
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On Mon, 4 May 1998, Lee Fisher wrote:
> If anyone has pointers to geodesic greenhouse kit manufacturers, or
> available designs, I would greatly appreciate it.

This from only yesterday - always a good idea to look before asking...

    http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/pvcstruts

... but it's also true sometimes not everything in the geodesic listserv
shows up in the geodesic newsgroup.  Either way, good luck to your
neighbor!

--
  Trevor Blake box2321@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/
  Post Office Box 2321, Portland Oregon 97208-2321, United States
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 May 1998 17:51:19 -0400
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From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      geodesic greenhouse kit?
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Lee,
You wrote:
<<If anyone has pointers to geodesic greenhouse kit manufacturers, or
available designs, I would greatly appreciate it.
[This is for my neighbor, an Fuller-fan and ex-hippie; her old non-geodes=
ic
greenhouse was damaged by a tree recently...]>>

      I have several geodesic greenhouse designs on my Greenhouse WEB pag=
e
along with one on my conduit page.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert-conroy/greenhou.htm
   "    "       "       "       "                   /conduitd.htm =

     I also plan to design an add-on greenhouse to my full size domes whi=
ch
will be comprised of used recycled double glass panels from hotel sliding=

glass doors, which generally can be bought very cheaply.  Hopefully it wi=
ll
be done by this fall.  Although it will be tied in with a geodesic
structure, it will not be what you could desribe as geodesic, other than
the roof and floor make a triangle.  =

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 May 1998 20:16:52 EDT
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From:         RINEHARTJR <RINEHARTJR@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: geodesic greenhouse kit?
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David Falasco, 4209 Maxwell St, Colorado Springs, CO 80906, Home
(719)596-5337, Work 599-5961 has been building them for several years.  Good
luck!
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 May 1998 16:36:40 -0500
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From:         Curt Flowers <cjflower@UIUC.EDU>
Organization: University of Illinois
Subject:      Re: Information
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Patricia Goodson wrote:
>
> Hello,
>         I am a member of Unity Clear Lake Center in Lake county.  We are
>  thinking
> of building a church on the geodesic design.  Any information that you can
> give me I would appreciate it.  I know very little about domes and I would
> like to learn.  Thank You and Blessings!  Pat

You might check out Living Word Fellowship Church, St. Joseph, IL. (217)
469-7410 Pastor: Larry Millis.
Their church sanctuary is a large 3v icosa geodesic dome around which
they've build classrooms. It's a beautiful sight, right next to
interstate 74 between Champaign and Danville.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 May 1998 23:24:14 EDT
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From:         RINEHARTJR <RINEHARTJR@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Information
Comments: To: Oregon@domes.com
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In a message dated 5/4/98 19:08:24, you wrote:
Oregon Dome, Inc has built several domes for church use, both in 3/8th's and
1/4 sphere domes.  They can be reached at Oregon@ Domes.com.

Member wrote:

<< Hello,
>         I am a member of Unity Clear Lake Center in Lake county.  We are
>  thinking
> of building a church on the geodesic design.  Any information that you can
> give me I would appreciate it.  I know very little about domes and I would
> like to learn.  Thank You and Blessings!  Pat
>>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 May 1998 10:31:41 -0600
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From:         Rob Hafernik <shokwave@WELL.COM>
Organization: Shokwave Software, Inc
Subject:      Re: Discrete math

In article <6i79t8$hii@b.stat.purdue.edu>, hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu
(Herman Rubin) wrote:

<snip>
> Part of this is that the computer does not do what it is claimed it
> does.  "Floating point arithmetic" is rarely the operation it is
> commonly called, and the computation of square roots and transcendental
> functions is not "correct", but an approximation.  If this is realized,
> the problems do not go away, but are better faced.

The point of all this escapes me, but this statement is misleading.  The
values for all transcendental functions are approximations (by definition,
really), so to chide computers for approximating them is misleading.  I'm
sure Herman knows this.  The "approximation" that computers use is
generally the result of a Taylor series or similar function.  This may be
computed on the fly or it may be stored in a table and interpolated.  For
the most part, it's certainly possible for a computer to use
"approximations" as precise as any you would use doing the math by hand.
Every time you go from a transcendental function to a value for that
function, whether it's in a mathematical operation done by hand or
computer, "exactness" is sacrificed.

Different types of programs use different methods too.  A 3D game, for
example, needs sines and cosines for transformation matrices, but it
doesn't need accurate ones.  I've often seen games that had small look-up
tables with a granularity of only a degree or half degree to speed up the
calculation of trig functions.  I've seen other programs that need precise
values, but only over a small range, calculate a few very exact values
over the range, then do high-quality interpolation within that range.
Some computers (not many, anymore) do transcendentals in software,
calculating them as needed from Taylor series terms.

As for floating point arithmetic rarely being the operation its commonly
called, I hardly know where to start.  Generally speaking, ALL computation
is done by the same sort of "approximation" that computers use.  When you
have the term "1/3" in a problem you're working out, you don't worry that
0.333333333 is just an approximation, you just go ahead.  A computer may
represent 0.333333333 differently, but the end result of the calculation
will be the same.

With today's 64 or 80 bit floating point numbers, precision is high enough
that rounding errors and such can be ignored much of the time.  Under some
conditions, such as problems that combine very large and very small
numbers or functions that are sensitive to very small errors, you have to
pay extremely close attention to the way numbers are handled in the
computer you're using.  Truly disasterous combinations are possible.  Of
course, if you're representing a descrete value (such as money), you
usually don't use a floating point number.

On the flip side, continuous values are sometimes represented as descrete
values to save computational time (in the bad old days, floating point
operations were very computationaly expensive, they could take thousands
of times longer than integer math).  I've seen graphics programs, for
example, that used fixed-point coordinate systems.  Since there are only
so many pixels in play (1200 to the inch being adequate for most
purposes), you can represent a coordinate as a integer number of inches
and an integer fraction of an inch (which gives you a coordinate space
about 1/2 mile square, enough for most graphics).  Thus a point midway
between 5 and 6 becomes 5 and 16384/32768ths of an inch.  Since it's easy
and fast to add, subtract and multiply fixed-point numbers, this is a good
solution.  Of course division is hard, but it always is.  For trig
functions and the like, you use look-up tables with a modest amount of
interpolation.

Generalizing about math and computers is pretty dangerous.  Just about
every possible methodology has been used, both successfully and
unsuccessfully, many times.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 May 1998 15:01:41 -0600
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From:         james lawson <jlawson@TEXNET.NET>
Subject:      America's most famous living genius
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Clifford J. Nelson wrote:

> someone who was called "America's most famous living
> genius"
>

Who, where, when and in what context did someone call Buckminster Fuller
"America's most famous living genius"?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 May 1998 14:26:43 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      BUCKY BIO OUTLINE
Comments: To: coend@geocities.com
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Doug,

I like your Bucky Fuller Biographical Outline
(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/2945/bucky.html)! I agree that some
of the dates are probably off by a year.  See Fuller's own chronologies in
the back of _Critical Path_ (Appendixes I & II).

Nice work,

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 May 1998 18:23:08 -0400
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From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Re: A Simple Bolted PVC Geodesic Strut Design
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A slight correction to the paper - when calculating the strut lengths,
add two inches to each strut. If you drill a hole one inch from each
end, then the hole-to-hole distance (the number that counts) will be
corrected to the calculated chord length - otherwise the dome will be
slightly distorted.

The paper has been changed to reflect this...

David Anderson wrote:

> Here's how I put together the framework for the greenhouse...
>
>     http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/pvcstruts
>
> --
>
> - Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 May 1998 15:39:10 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      SCIENTIFIC HOUSE
Comments: To: tworld@bbc.co.uk
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BBC ONLINE Staff
London, England

Gentlemen,

If you're REALLY serious about your "Dream Home" project
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/tw/dream/dream.shtml), look in R Buckminster Fuller's
book _Critical Path_ (1981) on pages 310-15 for a description of the
ultimate dream home.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 May 1998 16:37:50 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Discrete math

In article <shokwave-0505981031420001@as2-dialup-42.wc-aus.io.com>,
Rob Hafernik <shokwave@well.com> wrote:
>In article <6i79t8$hii@b.stat.purdue.edu>, hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu
>(Herman Rubin) wrote:

<snip>
>> Part of this is that the computer does not do what it is claimed it
>> does.  "Floating point arithmetic" is rarely the operation it is
>> commonly called, and the computation of square roots and transcendental
>> functions is not "correct", but an approximation.  If this is realized,
>> the problems do not go away, but are better faced.

>The point of all this escapes me, but this statement is misleading.  The
>values for all transcendental functions are approximations (by definition,
>really), so to chide computers for approximating them is misleading.  I'm
>sure Herman knows this.

You know this, and I know this, but the typical user does not, or does
not understand this.  Students using calculators do not act as if they
know it.  Students who have learned to do decimal calculations by hand
also do not seem to understand that it may or may not make a
difference.

In mathematics the associative law for multiplication holds.  In
floating-point computer arithmetic, this is not necessarily the case.
Without checking, I cannot tell you if (5.0/3.0)*3.0 = 5.0 or not,
using the hardware operations.  A computer doing floating-point
operations is not doing arithmetic, but an approximation to it.
If the user does not understand this, the user may run into mistakes.
In some cases, the software may be such as to make such mistakes
relatively common.

Instead of teaching students how to do the manipulations, we should
teach them to understand the mathematics, so they will be aware of
these problems.

                        .....................

>With today's 64 or 80 bit floating point numbers, precision is high enough
>that rounding errors and such can be ignored much of the time.
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Under some
>conditions, such as problems that combine very large and very small
>numbers or functions that are sensitive to very small errors, you have to
>pay extremely close attention to the way numbers are handled in the
>computer you're using.  Truly disasterous combinations are possible.  Of
>course, if you're representing a descrete value (such as money), you
>usually don't use a floating pointnumber.

The Pentium bug turned out to be more serious than thought, because many
producers of software used what the hardware was SUPPOSED to do in such
a way as to avoid many problems.  These steps made the occurrence of the
errors far more common.

>On the flip side, continuous values are sometimes represented as descrete
>values to save computational time (in the bad old days, floating point
>operations were very computationaly expensive, they could take thousands
>of times longer than integer math).

This was never the case; it is easy to program floating operations using
integer arithmetic.  At this time, it is integer operations which are
the far more expensive ones on most machines.

--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 May 1998 20:17:12 -0500
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From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: geodesic greenhouse kit?
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
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You might try Ernie's domes.....
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/wgd1.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 May 1998 22:14:12 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
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From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Re: geodesic greenhouse kit?
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Or this link if that one below does not work: http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/
-----Original Message-----
From: anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: geodesic greenhouse kit?


You might try Ernie's domes.....
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/wgd1.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 May 1998 22:19:22 -0400
Reply-To:     m_moy@juno.com
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From:         Michael Moy <m_moy@JUNO.COM>
Organization: None
Subject:      Re: Discrete math
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Herman Rubin wrote:
>
> In article <shokwave-0505981031420001@as2-dialup-42.wc-aus.io.com>,
> Rob Hafernik <shokwave@well.com> wrote:
> >In article <6i79t8$hii@b.stat.purdue.edu>, hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu
> >(Herman Rubin) wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >> Part of this is that the computer does not do what it is claimed it
> >> does.  "Floating point arithmetic" is rarely the operation it is
> >> commonly called, and the computation of square roots and transcendental
> >> functions is not "correct", but an approximation.  If this is realized,
> >> the problems do not go away, but are better faced.
>
> >The point of all this escapes me, but this statement is misleading.  The
> >values for all transcendental functions are approximations (by definition,
> >really), so to chide computers for approximating them is misleading.  I'm
> >sure Herman knows this.
>
> You know this, and I know this, but the typical user does not, or does
> not understand this.  Students using calculators do not act as if they
> know it.  Students who have learned to do decimal calculations by hand
> also do not seem to understand that it may or may not make a
> difference.
>
> In mathematics the associative law for multiplication holds.  In
> floating-point computer arithmetic, this is not necessarily the case.
> Without checking, I cannot tell you if (5.0/3.0)*3.0 = 5.0 or not,
> using the hardware operations.  A computer doing floating-point
> operations is not doing arithmetic, but an approximation to it.
> If the user does not understand this, the user may run into mistakes.
> In some cases, the software may be such as to make such mistakes
> relatively common.

You could always use a symbolic calculator instead of one that
uses approximations for results.

> Instead of teaching students how to do the manipulations, we should
> teach them to understand the mathematics, so they will be aware of
> these problems.

It's not that difficult to demonstrate what goes on in floating
point arithmetic though this is typically done in university courses.

>                         .....................
>
> >With today's 64 or 80 bit floating point numbers, precision is high enough
> >that rounding errors and such can be ignored much of the time.
>                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>  Under some
> >conditions, such as problems that combine very large and very small
> >numbers or functions that are sensitive to very small errors, you have to
> >pay extremely close attention to the way numbers are handled in the
> >computer you're using.  Truly disasterous combinations are possible.  Of
> >course, if you're representing a descrete value (such as money), you
> >usually don't use a floating pointnumber.

There are two bits for four options on rounding. You may run into
surprises
if you have the wrong setting on or if you have a software bug that
incorrectly sets these bits. These are described in one of the three
Intel Pentium books at Intel's site.

> The Pentium bug turned out to be more serious than thought, because many
> producers of software used what the hardware was SUPPOSED to do in such
> a way as to avoid many problems.  These steps made the occurrence of the
> errors far more common.
>
> >On the flip side, continuous values are sometimes represented as descrete
> >values to save computational time (in the bad old days, floating point
> >operations were very computationaly expensive, they could take thousands
> >of times longer than integer math).
>
> This was never the case; it is easy to program floating operations using
> integer arithmetic.  At this time, it is integer operations which are
> the far more expensive ones on most machines.

I find this rather hard to believe though I can check this on the
Digital Alpha and Intel Pentium Processors when I'm in the office.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 07:29:39 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>Aaaaargh! I give up. What can I do against such logorrhoea? I return
>after the weekend and the thread has snowballed. Clearly I'm not going
>to able to read all this stuff, let alone refute every single
>dubious argument.
>

I went off on a tangent with Cliff Nelson and then Brian Hutchings
jumped into the scene (sigh).  With you it's been tit for tat I think,
with one extra by me to further clarify, longer than your two
correctives I admit -- but then who's keeping score? :-)

Anyway, I gather I'm losing the benefit of your participation. It's
hard for me to track this on sci.math as well -- one of the most
frenetic of the USENET newgroups (lots of "me first" people).
Thanks for the chatter -- much enjoyed.

>OK. But is there an easy to see reason why the regular octahedron
>has 4 times the volume of the regular tetrahedron of the same edge length?

Sure.  First you consider that doubling the linear dimensions of any
shape increases its volume 8-fold (volume goes up as a 3rd power of
edge length).  So our unit-volume tetrahedron, now twice as big
(edge-wise) has a volume of 8.  It's midpoints subdivide it into
four tetrahedra of the original size (the "tips") leaving a regular
octahedron once you take them away.  8 - 4 = 4.  It's easier to show
as an animation of course.

>Can one dissect the octahedron into a finite number of smaller polyhedra
>which can be reassembled to form four regular tetrahedra of the same
>edge-length?

You can dissect it into 48 A and 48 B modules, which have equal
volume (1/24).  The tetrahedron is assembled from 24 A modules, so
the 4:1 relationship is pretty easy to see.

>Equivalently, since a regular tetrahedron of side-length 2
>can be dissected into 4 regular tetrahedra plus an octahedron of
>unit side length

This is the 4 + 4 = 8 thing I was talking about.

>can one dissect an edge-length 2 regular tetrahedron
>into smaller polyhedra and reassemble into eight unit tetrahedra?

The 2-frequency tetrahedron dissects into A and B mods -- for
a total of 8 x 24 modules, we can say without hesitation.

The A and B mods also assemble the cube, rhombic dodecahedron,
cuboctahedron, Coupler, MITE, tetrakaidecahedron and other shapes
-- cubes are not as flexible.

I do have a cube to play with though, just like you do -- except
its volume is 3 relative to the volume 1 tetrahedron.  This is
the so-called 'duo-tet' cube, formed by the 8 vertices of a tet
interpenetrating its dual 'Star of David' fashion.

You can show it has a volume of 3 with an animation glomming 4
eighth octahedra to a unit volume tet.  We already know the octa
is 4 so 4/8 = 1/2 and 1 + 4 x 1/2 = 3.  Fuller did a lot of this
"slice and dice" stuff in his "Synergetics Folio" (color plates
reproduced at the front of Synergetics 2).  No computation or
coordinates required.

>(Of course the corresponding problem for the CUBE is a bit easier :-))
>

Try building a rhombic dodecahedron with cubes.  The rh dodeca is
a space-filler by the way (as I'm sure you know) and has a volume
of 6 relative to the inscribed cube of volume 3 (= short face
diagonals).  Kids love the simplicity of all this (and I make
sure to work it into my quadray papers, so even if they forget
all about quadrays -- fine with me -- they might get a handle
on the synergetics concentric hierarchy).

>>
>> There is an irregular tetrahedron which fills space by the way --
>> the MInimum TEtrahedron (or MITE), with a volume of 1/8 (depicted
>> on pg. 71 of Coxeter's 'Regular Polytopes' but not dignified with
>> a name, nor assembled in terms of A and B modules).
>
>Surley the easiest way to see this is to dissect the CUBE into six congruent
>tetahedra?

Divide the cube into six congruent half-octahedra.  The cube's center
forms their common apex and its 6 faces their bases.  These are
half-couplers of volume 1/2 (6 x 1/2 = 3).  Half-couplers consist
of 4 MITEs (draw a criss-cross on the cube's face).

>For instance the cube with Cartesian coordinates...

Nevermind about coordinates.

>My position when faced with a geomteric problem is to solve it without
>introducing coordinates if possible, or if not introduce some coordinate
>system respecting as much symmetry of the problem as possible. There
>may even conceivably be some problem for which quadray coordinates
>might be useful, but I can't think of any at the present :-)
>

I enjoyed using them to represent polyhedra in a relational database
(vertices in one table, edges in another), a lot of which have
integer coordinates in quadrays (some do in XYZ too, I realize).

Beyond that, I've found the apparatus useful in a philosophical
context (cite memo to one of your peers at Exeter), but I don't
push them as a replacement for XYZ, nor for any practical purpose
at this point -- just another game, one of gazillions.

I like the British "maths" (plural) -- synchs with my sense of
it as well.

The papers are clearly written I might add (I get praise from
classroom teachers) so I suppose you could say I use quadrays
to show off my talents as a curriculum writer involved in
distance learning via the internet.  Kids can pick up a lot of
ideas about vectors and ways to harness ray tracing software
to play with polyhedra, which ideas work in XYZ world of course
-- nothing new.

>
>I don't know. I have read any Cantor for about 15 years...

OK, thanks for racking your brains anyway.

>Why are you scared of negative numbers? In view of your lionization
>of independent discoverers of classical ideas you might like to recall
>that Paul Erdos's mother claimed that he discovered the idea of negative
>numbers for himself at the age of three. What age will you be when you
>discover them? :-)
>

Nevermind about this.  I'm clear you don't have the time for a
prolonged discussion on this score.  I've already said my piece
at my website and cited the relevant pages.  Negative numbers are
fine, I have no problem with them.

>Or you can express quadrays in terms of Cartesians. (1 1 1), (1 -1 -1),
>(-1 1 -1) and (-1, -1, 1) is a Cartesian expression for a quadray base.
>So Cartesians are the logical underpinning of what you take for garnted :-)
>

I say quadrays are more primitive because they use 4 spokes instead
of 6 -- its a visual thing, all talk of coordinates or negative numbers
aside.

Seems an appropriate analytic gizmo to stick onto Fuller's "4D"
(volume's dimensionality, using other criteria than orthogonality)
even if Cliff Nelson disagrees.

>Yup. Mathematics is all about getting the right numerical answers
>to problems. There's no interest at all in understanding how we compute these,
>as our computers will do them for us, and in these days of fast computers
>who cares if the program you're running is using a complicated
>and inefficient algorithm :-)
>

Sarcasm noted.  But I get some new economies in trade for the added
ops in my distance computations.  And computers do have their advantages.

>This university will never be able to afford to jump on the upgrade
>treadmill :-( Anyway let me add, that as I know nothing of synergetics,
>I am not dismissing it; I'm sure it's one of the million and one things
>that I really ought to know about, but haven't got round to studying yet.
>On the other hand, the inflated rhetoric of its most prominent USENET
>prophet has ensured that at present it will not rise much above the
>million-and-first position in my list :-(
>

Yeah, :-(

I didn't think my rhetoric was all that inflated, but of course I'm
my own blind spot.  I'm trully sorry if I'm the reason you'll be
putting off any further "explorations in the geometry of thinking"
(Fuller's subtitle) but I suspect that was just parting hyperbole.
Par for the course on USENET, where "prophets" of this and that
are a dime a dozen.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 06:12:20 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: geodesic greenhouse kit?
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

Sorry about that.
That url should have been:
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/WGD1.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 09:01:16 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      FS: Bucky Fuller Children's Book
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

Once in a while some of my most far-flung interests intersect.  This book
is a case in point: it is a children's biography of Buckminster Fuller.  I
am a children's book dealer by profession and Bucky scholar/collector by
choice.  Sometimes I sell bits of my Bucky collection - but I'm also
always buying more.  This is one of three Bucky books with a connection to
children's literature, the others being Tetrascroll and Fuller's Earth.  I
hereby offer this one copy of this one out of print book...

[#2751] [Fuller, R. Buckminster] Athena V. Lord: PILOT FOR SPACESHIP
EARTH / R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER / ARCHITECT, INVENTOR & POET. New York:
Macmillan Publishing Co. Inc, 1978. 1st ed. Cloth, 12mo, 168 pp.
(Photographic illust.) Very Good in Very Good dust jacket: gift
inscript, sm tear dj. One of the very few works about Fuller written
for young readers, signed & inscribed by the author. Out of print.
$37.50

________________________________________________________________________
 =A9 1998 Trevor Blake

J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books
P. O. Box 2321, Portland OR 97208-2321 USA
telephone: 503-236-2364 / e-mail: box2321@teleport.com
World Wide Web: http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm

Terms of Sale:
- Postage paid in North America; outside of N. America please inquire.
- Reciprocal dealer discount up to 20%, libraries accommodated.
- Checks in United States currency to "Trevor Blake" only, please.
- No credit cards accepted.
- Two week hold with order.
- See URL above for full terms of sale, returns, etc.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 10:41:51 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      TET AND OCT DOMES
Comments: To: ega@fastlane.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ernie,

I like your Tet- & Oct-Based domes (http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/WGD1.htm).
I don't know of anyone who is currently doing any development on them--much
less actually offering them for sale.  Good work!

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 15:45:32 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         mike@CITYWEBSITES.COM
Organization: Citywebsites
Subject:      World wide directory launch

Please come by and visit the internets newest world wide directory. We're
hoping you'll suggest a link for us, and if there is a link you want to
suggest for a place we don't have on line yet please come back and make your
suggestion later. We're located at http://www.citywebsites.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 14:00:55 +0900
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         tce <te8966@CHOLLIAN.NET>
Organization: DACOM Internet Service
Subject:      Re: Discrete math

Herman Rubin @L(0!) <6io0re$1eco@b.stat.purdue.edu> 8^=CAv?!<-
@[<:GO?4=@4O4Y...
Well you know, a lot depends on the MIPS programming and the structure of
ALU's involved. As long as computers calculate and store in 0 and 1's timely
accuracy will be limited. 32 bits isn't a big word no matter how fast one
clocks the CPU.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 10:39:33 -0600
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Rob Hafernik <shokwave@WELL.COM>
Organization: Shokwave Software, Inc
Subject:      Re: Discrete math

In article <6io0re$1eco@b.stat.purdue.edu>, hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu
(Herman Rubin) wrote:

<snip>

> >On the flip side, continuous values are sometimes represented as descrete
> >values to save computational time (in the bad old days, floating point
> >operations were very computationaly expensive, they could take thousands
> >of times longer than integer math).
>
> This was never the case; it is easy to program floating operations using
> integer arithmetic.  At this time, it is integer operations which are
> the far more expensive ones on most machines.

Herman, you are absolutely, flatly, unquestionably wrong on this.  Go to
ANY computer newsgroup and post this and you will be laughed at, flamed
and made the butt of crude techie jokes that you may not understand.

It has only been in the last few years that programmers had access to
cheap floating point.  Before that, all SORTS of work-arounds were used,
as I said.  Everyone knows this.  Most of us who have been in the business
for any length of time have an ingrained, automatic aversion to floating
point.  Floats were so slow to use for so long that it takes an act of
will to use them today, even though they are much better.

It is NOT "easy" to program "floating operations" using integer
arithmetic.  Even stating the question this way shows you don't know how
it's done.  EVERY operation done by a computer CPU is "integer" in the
sense that all operations are done on small chunks of bits.  Floating
point ops are VERY expensive to do in software.  Since every floating
point op requres MANY integer operations, they were ALWAYS much slower
than integer operations when emulated in software.  Floating point divides
in integer software take DOZENS of instructions.

Integer operations are still as fast or faster than floating point ops
today on all CPUs that I know of.  Certainly, this is true for the Pentium
or PowerPC CPUs in most desktops (and the DEC Alpha).  At the very best,
some recent CPU's have floating point ops that are as fast as integer ops,
but this is not the case for most CPUs in use today.

Herman, please stick to subjects you actually know something about.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 13:57:50 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      NEW GAZEBO DOME MANUF
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The GeoGazebo

Manufactured By

DynaTek Corp.
P.O. Box 5662
Knoxville, TN, 37928 USA

(423) 689-8800

1-888-689-8809 Orders Only

http://www.geogazebo.com


****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 14:31:55 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Dome (http://topia.simplenet.com/dome.htm)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Another dome manufacturer!

"Ready made steel connectors for making Knocked Down Geodesic Domes"

Topia Co, Ltd.
310/165 Songprapa Rd.
Donmuang, Bangkok 10210, Thailand

Tel. (662)566-3114, 566-1219
Fax  (662) 566-1219

Web Site : http://topia.simplenet.com/dome.htm
E-Mail :  topia@samart.co.th


****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 13:47:57 -0400
Reply-To:     m_moy@juno.com
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Moy <m_moy@JUNO.COM>
Organization: None
Subject:      Re: Discrete math
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Michael Moy wrote:
>
> Herman Rubin wrote:
> >
> > In article <shokwave-0505981031420001@as2-dialup-42.wc-aus.io.com>,
> > Rob Hafernik <shokwave@well.com> wrote:
> > >In article <6i79t8$hii@b.stat.purdue.edu>, hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu
> > >(Herman Rubin) wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > >> Part of this is that the computer does not do what it is claimed it
> > >> does.  "Floating point arithmetic" is rarely the operation it is
> > >> commonly called, and the computation of square roots and transcendental
> > >> functions is not "correct", but an approximation.  If this is realized,
> > >> the problems do not go away, but are better faced.
> >
> > >The point of all this escapes me, but this statement is misleading.  The
> > >values for all transcendental functions are approximations (by definition,
> > >really), so to chide computers for approximating them is misleading.  I'm
> > >sure Herman knows this.
> >
> > You know this, and I know this, but the typical user does not, or does
> > not understand this.  Students using calculators do not act as if they
> > know it.  Students who have learned to do decimal calculations by hand
> > also do not seem to understand that it may or may not make a
> > difference.
> >
> > In mathematics the associative law for multiplication holds.  In
> > floating-point computer arithmetic, this is not necessarily the case.
> > Without checking, I cannot tell you if (5.0/3.0)*3.0 = 5.0 or not,
> > using the hardware operations.  A computer doing floating-point
> > operations is not doing arithmetic, but an approximation to it.
> > If the user does not understand this, the user may run into mistakes.
> > In some cases, the software may be such as to make such mistakes
> > relatively common.
>
> You could always use a symbolic calculator instead of one that
> uses approximations for results.
>
> > Instead of teaching students how to do the manipulations, we should
> > teach them to understand the mathematics, so they will be aware of
> > these problems.
>
> It's not that difficult to demonstrate what goes on in floating
> point arithmetic though this is typically done in university courses.
>
> >                         .....................
> >
> > >With today's 64 or 80 bit floating point numbers, precision is high enough
> > >that rounding errors and such can be ignored much of the time.
> >                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >  Under some
> > >conditions, such as problems that combine very large and very small
> > >numbers or functions that are sensitive to very small errors, you have to
> > >pay extremely close attention to the way numbers are handled in the
> > >computer you're using.  Truly disasterous combinations are possible.  Of
> > >course, if you're representing a descrete value (such as money), you
> > >usually don't use a floating pointnumber.
>
> There are two bits for four options on rounding. You may run into
> surprises
> if you have the wrong setting on or if you have a software bug that
> incorrectly sets these bits. These are described in one of the three
> Intel Pentium books at Intel's site.
>
> > The Pentium bug turned out to be more serious than thought, because many
> > producers of software used what the hardware was SUPPOSED to do in such
> > a way as to avoid many problems.  These steps made the occurrence of the
> > errors far more common.
> >
> > >On the flip side, continuous values are sometimes represented as descrete
> > >values to save computational time (in the bad old days, floating point
> > >operations were very computationaly expensive, they could take thousands
> > >of times longer than integer math).
> >
> > This was never the case; it is easy to program floating operations using
> > integer arithmetic.  At this time, it is integer operations which are
> > the far more expensive ones on most machines.
>
> I find this rather hard to believe though I can check this on the
> Digital Alpha and Intel Pentium Processors when I'm in the office.

I don't have the book with the timing for instructions but am pretty
sure that just about anything emulated in software is slower than an
integer instruction in hardware and the processors that I've seen
generally have one instruction integer operations.

A good book on computer organization should be able to show you how
integer and FP math is done with circuitry examples showing the
relative complexities.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 14:37:51 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      DOME MANUF NUMBER 3
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

ANOTHER dome manuf (#3)!!

ALPINE DOMES
P.O. Box 191
Monroe, OR 97456

(541) 847-5545
Contact: Bryce & Sandy Halonen

Email: info@alpinedomes.com
http://www.alpinedomes.com/

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 15:05:42 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      DOME MANUF NUMBER 4
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Littlewood Geodesic Domes
7208 80 Ave,
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6B 0C6

Phone; (403) 463-3004 or 970-3802
geodome@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca

http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/domes/domes.html

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 15:49:35 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      ASPENSION TENSEGRITY MODEL
Comments: To: marc@umr.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Marc,

I like your Aspension Tensegrity model--very nice!

http://www.umr.edu/~marc/bwdome.htm

I built one once. It was 6 feet across. It's still clutering up my
storeroom. (The spiders love it.)

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 15:06:33 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Discrete math

In article <shokwave-0605981039340001@as3-dialup-18.wc-aus.io.com>,
Rob Hafernik <shokwave@well.com> wrote:
>In article <6io0re$1eco@b.stat.purdue.edu>, hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu
>(Herman Rubin) wrote:

><snip>

>> >On the flip side, continuous values are sometimes represented as descrete
>> >values to save computational time (in the bad old days, floating point
>> >operations were very computationaly expensive, they could take thousands
>> >of times longer than integer math).

>> This was never the case; it is easy to program floating operations using
>> integer arithmetic.  At this time, it is integer operations which are
>> the far more expensive ones on most machines.

>Herman, you are absolutely, flatly, unquestionably wrong on this.  Go to
>ANY computer newsgroup and post this and you will be laughed at, flamed
>and made the butt of crude techie jokes that you may not understand.

I am quite aware of computer architecture, and how it affects so-called
multiple precision calculations.  Many of those involved in primality
testing and the factoring of large numbers have pointed out that it
pays on many machines to use the substantially faster floating units,
with their greater precision, to do exact integer arithmetic, even
with the very annoying IEEE format.  Few machines can multiply 32-bit
integers and get a 64-bit product directly, and breaking things up
into 16 bit pieces slows things down.  Also, floating point is much
more heavily pipelined.  The first portable multiple-precision package,
back when pipelining was not yet that good, used the floating point
unit for integer operations.

>It has only been in the last few years that programmers had access to
>cheap floating point.  Before that, all SORTS of work-arounds were used,

There are good workarounds and bad ones.  Those who do not understand
the problems typically use bad one.  I can give you a reason why it
was generally cumbersome; there was this nasty tendency to keep the
exponent and mantissa in the same computer word!

I have had access to cheap floating point for more than 30 years now.
The machines involved are the CDC3600, 6500, and 6600, the CYBER205,
VAX750, and RS/6000, among others.  ALL of these machines have
floating operations at least comparable to integer ones, and many
have them faster.  Some of these machines do not even have separate
integer multiplication and division.  These are all "well known"
mainframes.

                        ...................

>Integer operations are still as fast or faster than floating point ops
>today on all CPUs that I know of.  Certainly, this is true for the Pentium
>or PowerPC CPUs in most desktops (and the DEC Alpha).  At the very best,
>some recent CPU's have floating point ops that are as fast as integer ops,
>but this is not the case for most CPUs in use today.

The PowerPC CPUs are quite similar to the RS/6000.
--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 17:03:54 -0400
Reply-To:     m_moy@juno.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Moy <m_moy@JUNO.COM>
Organization: None
Subject:      Re: Discrete math
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Herman Rubin wrote:
>
> In article <shokwave-0605981039340001@as3-dialup-18.wc-aus.io.com>,
> Rob Hafernik <shokwave@well.com> wrote:
> >In article <6io0re$1eco@b.stat.purdue.edu>, hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu
> >(Herman Rubin) wrote:
>
> ><snip>
>
> >> >On the flip side, continuous values are sometimes represented as descrete
> >> >values to save computational time (in the bad old days, floating point
> >> >operations were very computationaly expensive, they could take thousands
> >> >of times longer than integer math).
>
> >> This was never the case; it is easy to program floating operations using
> >> integer arithmetic.  At this time, it is integer operations which are
> >> the far more expensive ones on most machines.
>
> >Herman, you are absolutely, flatly, unquestionably wrong on this.  Go to
> >ANY computer newsgroup and post this and you will be laughed at, flamed
> >and made the butt of crude techie jokes that you may not understand.
>
> I am quite aware of computer architecture, and how it affects so-called
> multiple precision calculations.  Many of those involved in primality
> testing and the factoring of large numbers have pointed out that it
> pays on many machines to use the substantially faster floating units,
> with their greater precision, to do exact integer arithmetic, even
> with the very annoying IEEE format.  Few machines can multiply 32-bit
> integers and get a 64-bit product directly, and breaking things up
> into 16 bit pieces slows things down.

1) Check out the Digital Alpha.
2) I'd be surprised if modern 32-bit processors had to break things
   up into words.

> Also, floating point is much more heavily pipelined.

Integer operations can also be pipelined with integer as well as other
operations too though I see this as more of a RISC issue.

> The first portable multiple-precision package,
> back when pipelining was not yet that good, used the floating point
> unit for integer operations.

If it were portable, how could you rely on the FPU when it might not
even be there?

> >It has only been in the last few years that programmers had access to
> >cheap floating point.  Before that, all SORTS of work-arounds were used,
>
> There are good workarounds and bad ones.  Those who do not understand
> the problems typically use bad one.  I can give you a reason why it
> was generally cumbersome; there was this nasty tendency to keep the
> exponent and mantissa in the same computer word!
>
> I have had access to cheap floating point for more than 30 years now.
> The machines involved are the CDC3600, 6500, and 6600, the CYBER205,
> VAX750, and RS/6000, among others.  ALL of these machines have
> floating operations at least comparable to integer ones, and many
> have them faster.  Some of these machines do not even have separate
> integer multiplication and division.  These are all "well known"
> mainframes.

Do you have timing information for an integer op compared to an FP op?
I know that some of the VAX instructions that do complicated arithmetic
can take a while.

>                         ...................
>
> >Integer operations are still as fast or faster than floating point ops
> >today on all CPUs that I know of.  Certainly, this is true for the Pentium
> >or PowerPC CPUs in most desktops (and the DEC Alpha).  At the very best,
> >some recent CPU's have floating point ops that are as fast as integer ops,
> >but this is not the case for most CPUs in use today.
>
> The PowerPC CPUs are quite similar to the RS/6000.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 20:50:02 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Re: NEW GAZEBO DOME MANUF
MIME-Version: 1.0
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NOW THAT LOOKS COOL!

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 5:06 PM
Subject: NEW GAZEBO DOME MANUF


>The GeoGazebo
>
>Manufactured By
>
>DynaTek Corp.
>P.O. Box 5662
>Knoxville, TN, 37928 USA
>
>(423) 689-8800
>
>1-888-689-8809 Orders Only
>
>http://www.geogazebo.com
>
>
>****************************************
>* Joe S. Moore
>* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
>* joemoore@cruzio.com
>* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
>* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>****************************************
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 16:31:32 GMT
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From:         Doug Milliken <bd427@FREENET.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: Buffalo Free-Net
Subject:      Re: BUILDING TECH PROG
In-Reply-To:  <000101bd7704$ac8df180$dcdae3a5@kelp220.cruzio.com>
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On Sun, 3 May 1998, Joe S. Moore wrote:

> William J. Mitchell
> Dean, School of Architecture and Planning
> Massachusetts Institute of Technology
> I certainly hope that the ideas of R. Buckminster Fuller are seriously
> included in MIT's  "Building Technology Program"
> (http://web.mit.edu/bt/www/bt.html), otherwise it would seem to appear that
> a cruel hoax and intellectual fraud may being perpetrated on your students.

Well, when I was there (mid 70's) probably the _only_ place you could hear
about Bucky was in the little Building Technology group, which became my
major sequence.  Well that's not quite true, I did go and hear Bucky
lecture in Boston one time - a wonderful evening.  Anyway, the building
tech profs were pretty much outcast from the rest of the architecture
faculty.  For example, we did talk briefly about domes and high-quality/
high-efficiency manufactured housing in the course on energy use in
buildings, and a follow-on course on solar architecture.  The mainstream at
that time seemed to be "design" (as in "style") with a minimum of interest
in function/engineering.

Digression (what happens when you don't listen to the engineers) --
Remember the Hancock Tower in Boston that lost the glass in the wind?  That
was an I M Pei design (he's from MIT).  The way I heard the story, Pei's
engineers told him that there might be a problem with aerodynamic "pitching
moment" (twist in the case of the building), but he ignored them...  The
eventual fix was a combination of thicker glass, and an active damping
system just below the roof that shuttles tons of lead back and forth on a
track, using a combination of springs and hydraulic actuators.  I heard
about the latter system from the guys at MTS (Minneapolis) that built and
installed it.

-- Doug
                Doug Milliken  <bd427@@freenet.buffalo.edu>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 18:36:57 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      BFVU
Comments: To: mad@orbits.com
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Marc,

Congrats for starting your Bucky Fuller Virtual University
(http://www.orbits.com/~mad/fvu.html). You'll find all the reference
materials at my site (Master Index, Bibliography, Glossary, Links, Selected
Ideas, etc).

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 May 1998 18:50:35 +1100
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From:         Rob Lusher <domeco@WR.COM.AU>
Subject:      Re: geodesic greenhouse kit?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

You might try The Dome Company <http://www.wr.com.au/domeco> for kit-set 2v
and 2v dome frames.  Instructions for DIY dome builders also available via
a DIY manual - measurements given in metric (go metric America,go:-)


With kind regards

Rob Lusher
The Dome Company <domeco@wr.com.au>
47 Edward St.
Sylvania Heights
Sydney, NSW 2224
Australia               Phone/Fax: (02) 95226283
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 May 1998 10:57:44 -0800
Reply-To:     bward@metro.net
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From:         Bruce Ward <bward@METRO.NET>
Organization: chh yeh right…
Subject:      Re: Sunsight/Sunclipse
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>>Bruce Ward said:
>Kirby Urner said:
>>'Take' and 'cut' are active verbs.  In this application, we do no such
>>thing; they are irrelevant and wrong.  They are as wrongly
>>misinforming sensorially as 'rise ' and 'set'.


>Are you quite convinced?

Yeah;

>'See' is an active verb too ya know.  The movie metaphors help with
>'dawning awareness' -- the sense that you, the one with the brain-TV
>studio (another Fullerism) have a role to play in 'getting the
>experience on tape'.

Okay.  But my sense of it is that this is a 'happening' type of
experience rather than an 'experiment' experience.

>Anyway, I'm not heavily invested in any of this.

Nor am I.

>Like I say, these were proposals from Gene Fowler,

Thanks Gene,  but no thanks

>But I do like the Hollywood angle in some respects.

Feels more like Madison Avenue to me, but what do I know…  pass…

>Gracias por los kopecks.

de nada
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 May 1998 14:32:10 +0900
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From:         tce <te8966@CHOLLIAN.NET>
Organization: DACOM Internet Service
Subject:      Re: Discrete math

Michael Moy @L(0!) <3550A24D.3463@juno.com> 8^=CAv?!<-
@[<:GO?4=@4O4Y...
FP math isn't brain science. It's wired from the 1st bit. You'll have to
create a new binary instruction set to get what you want. The governments
are happy with what exists right now, it's remotely crackable.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 May 1998 10:03:19 -0600
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From:         Rob Hafernik <shokwave@WELL.COM>
Organization: Shokwave Software, Inc
Subject:      Re: Discrete math

Herman, give it up.  Even the mainframes you cite (which are generally
well-regarded in float performance) do not process single-precision floats
faster than single-precision ints.  It's just a fact.

If they did, then programmers would have been using floats for loop
iterations and such all these years.  Almost every programming language
out there gives you the ability to distinguish between floats and ints
when you declare variables.  In many cases (such as loop iterations) it
makes no semantic difference which you use so programmers almost
universally choose ints for performance reasons.

If you really want to look into this, try _The Art of Computer
Programming, Vol 2: Seminumerical Algorithms_ by Donald Knuth, Addison
Wesley, 1981.  Knuth is the nearest thing to a saint that programming
has.  He spends a whole chapter of this volume (discussing the accuracy of
floating point calculations and the best ways to code them for speed and
adherance to associative and commutative laws (and how to make adherance
to one pinch-hit for adherance to the other).  There is also length
discussion of multiple-precision arithmetic and how to do it fast.  It's
deep stuff, but you've opened a deep subject.

Just for fun, here's a chapter-head quote from Knuth's book:

   I do hate sums.  There is no greater mistake than to call arithmetic
   an exact science.  There are... hidden laws of number which it
   requires a mind like mine to perceive.  For instance, if you add a
   sum from the bottom up, and then again from the top down, the
   result is always different.

         -- Mrs La Touche, 19th century.

Also interesting in this book is the historical note that the first to use
a floating point notation were the Babylonians (Sumerians, I think we say
now) about 1750 BCE.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 May 1998 11:55:48 -0400
Reply-To:     m_moy@juno.com
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From:         Michael Moy <m_moy@JUNO.COM>
Organization: None
Subject:      Re: Discrete math
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tce wrote:
>
> Michael Moy @L(0!) <3550A24D.3463@juno.com> 8^=CAv?!<-
> @[<:GO?4=@4O4Y...
> FP math isn't brain science. It's wired from the 1st bit. You'll have to
> create a new binary instruction set to get what you want. The governments
> are happy with what exists right now, it's remotely crackable.

You can easily do what I was talking about in software. I don't see
a need to do it in hardware.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 May 1998 17:29:47 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>Yes. My point is that 2-fold magnification equates to 8-fold
>increase in volume is easy to see when one uses the cube as a model of volume
>measurement. Not so when one uses the regular tetrahedron.
>

It's true for any shape of course, a sewing machine or step ladder
or giraffe.  As long as the tetrahedron stays regular (surface and
central angles don't change i.e. shape is fixed), you've got a
3rd powering model -- between a cube keeping its shape while
expanding, and a tetrahedron doing the same, I don't see either
as "easier" -- but the tetrahedron is topologically simpler and
therefore seems a cleaner shape to begin as a model of 3rd powering.

Plus assigning it the role of unit volume gives all these other shapes
easier volumes -- keeping the cube around with volume 3 (less primal
-- not "the star" of our show any more -- but still prime).

>
>Even easier to to see it by making a physical model.
>

OK, claymation then.

>> >Can one dissect the octahedron into a finite number of smaller polyhedra
>> >which can be reassembled to form four regular tetrahedra of the same
>> >edge-length?
>
>[At length Urner fails to solve this problem:]
>

[Urner allows B modules to transform into A modules by sliding an edge
(see below) -- the A mods build 8 regular tetrahedra]

>A modules and B modules indeed. Terms redolent of geometric imagery :-)
>

That's just what they're called. Sorry.

>[digression: why is it that the word "module" has so mmuch fascination
>for jargoneers? At this university we no longer offer "courses", but
>"modules" instead....]
>

"Modules" have been around for a long while -- dunno, seems apt and
shortens to "mod" easily (which in Britain tends to mean "hip" or
"with it" in an obsolete 1960s "Austin Powers" kind of way).  Mods
are groovy, what can I say?

>Of course this begs the question. Why is it that these A and B modules
>have the same volume. It's not obvious is it? They aren't congruent are they?

A and B may be viewed as the first two in a series (...C,D,A',B'...)
of increasingly skewed tetrahedra all of equal volume.  You're taking
an opposite perpendicular and "sliding it up the flag pole" keeping
the first edge fixed (others adjust as necessary).

You can also slide "down the pole" (underground?) to get the oppositely-
handed mirrors of these same shapes (or "inside-outs" as the case may
be -- synergetics links mirroring to inside-outing, as I'm sure many
other self-disciplines must).

Cite: "Constant Volume of A and B Quanta Modules"
http://www.servtech.com/~rwgray/synergetics/s09/figs/f2310.html

[I don't get the impression you've been viewing the many glorious
graphics I've been citing in these posts -- hoping if any others are
following this conversation that some are already way ahead of you
on the homework front -- you're way too busy I realize, not really
slow, as some others might judge].

>So you've replaced the task of showing that the simple shapes
>of tetrahedron and octahedron are 1:4 in volume ratio, by that of
>showing that these complicated A/B modules have the same volume. Progress?
>No, a definite regress.
>

I showed the 1:4 ratio by the 3rd powering edge doubling and slicing
off "tips" demo.  A and B mod dissections are irrelevant to showing
this ratio.  You just have to know that volume goes up as a third
powering of edge magnification _for any shape_.  You don't need to
carve the results up into little pieces to "get it" (that 8-4=4)
-- this fixation on carving a big cube into ittier bittier ones
is where the regression comes in.

>I reiterate the challenge. Explain how one can understand the third-power
>law of volumes using a tetrahedral-based system in as appealing a way as
>one can understand it in a cube-based system.
>

The tetrahedron inscribes as a constant fraction in your beloved
cube (1/3), if you need to prove to yourself that _all shapes_ obey
this "third-power law".  The tetrahedron is more appealing as a
model because it's the simplest box, the room with the fewest sides,
is the most primitive signifier for volume (even more primitive
than the "sphere" which is a high frequency edgeworks, and probably
spinning).

>> I do have a cube to play with though, just like you do -- except
>> its volume is 3 relative to the volume 1 tetrahedron.  This is
>> the so-called 'duo-tet' cube, formed by the 8 vertices of a tet
>> interpenetrating its dual 'Star of David' fashion.
>
>Isn't this what the rest of the world calls the "stella octangula"?
>(Maybe it was Kepler's term?)
>

"The rest of the world"?  Chinese speaking Latin?  Anyway, call
it whatever. "Duo-tet" works for me.

>[Mass of neologism-saturated verbiage deleted but including
>

I don't recall these neologisms but take your word for it.  Oh
yeah, "2-frequency".  Synergetics makes the "angle vs. frequency"
distinction where the former relates to shape (irrespective of
scale) and the latter to time-distance (as when a Platonic
tetrahedron becomes a spatiotemporal one, sitting here on my
desktop).

Use whatever words you like for all this, I'm easy.

>> synergetics concentric hierarchy
>
>I remember this in an earlier post. It looked like just a list of polyhedra
>to me.
>

With easy whole number volumes (new! different!) except for the
incommensurable icosa (18.51...).  To see the graphics, with the shapes
actually concentric, and in a hierarchy, you'd have had to visit cited
web pages. Newsgroup postings don't lend themselves to much beyond
"lists" and such, unless you plan to do "ASCII art".

>> glomming
>
>er, come again?]
>

Vernacular.  I'm not trying to school you in a jargon, just speaking
my native tougue.  "Stuck on" "affixed" "glued" "joined"... whatever.

>This is a different decomposition to mine. I was cutting the cube into 6
>pieces, you're doing the same into 24 pieces.
>

I was breaking a volume 3 cube into 1/8th MITEs, yes.  Seemed easiest
to me (you were talking about what was easiest -- we get different
answers, not surprisingly).

>I prefer "mathematics" :-) Anyway, round here "maths" is syntacically
>singular. You would hear, `maths is great', not `maths are great'.
>

Ah so.

Synergetics is more a philosophy than a math BTW, part of why
it's a target for a lot of knee-jerk prejudices I suppose, given
the bad name philosophy has earned for itself and by extension
for its "doctor of..." degree.

I'd like to turn that around, as I'm sure would many with degrading
Ph.D.s (a kind of paper security) -- and learning some synergetics
could help restore some integrity in this department!

Fuller himself was dismissive of any Department of Philosophy
according to E.J. Applewhite in his "Cosmic Fishing" (1977) --
Fuller was a self-styled enemy of overspecialization and
"compartment of philosophy" no doubt sounded extremely oxymoronic
to his ears.  But still he used "philosophy" in its more vernacular
sense, as did Ludwig Wittgenstein.

>
>Nice to hear you are on the side of "the kids".
>

Yes, definitely.  I'm hoping maybe some were following this and
learned something -- nothing so far that a 14-year-old couldn't
master.

>>
>> I say quadrays are more primitive because they use 4 spokes instead
>> of 6 -- its a visual thing, all talk of coordinates or negative numbers
>> aside.
>
>Or 4 lines instead of 3.

"4 rays" vs. "3 lines" yes, with "line = 2 rays"

>
>[rest deleted, due to lack of time].
>
>Robin Chapman                           + "They did not have proper
>Department of Mathematics               -  palms at home in Exeter."
>University of Exeter, EX4 4QE, UK       +
>rjc@maths.exeter.ac.uk                  -    Peter Carey,
>http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html +      Oscar and Lucinda


Kirby
Curriculum writer
4D Solutions
Portland, Oregon USA
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 May 1998 21:46:41 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:

>
>Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>>Aaaaargh! I give up. What can I do against such logorrhoea?


Anticipating your objections and concluding my posts
to this thread (feel free to have a last word if you
wish)...

I used the law of volumes as a given, to show how
the tetrahedron has 1/4th the volume of an octahedron
of the same edge length -- you had asked if there was
an intuitive demonstration.

Then I answered your questions about subdividing into
smaller polyhedra, but not to prove the law of volumes.
The B<->A volume-preserving transform was included to
show off the versatility of the synergetics approach,
advertizes the high information content per module
available through our Fuller School. :-)

To prove the law of volumes you don't need to use
a cube.  The base of a growing tetrahedron is f^2
(f intervals along an edge) as per the cross-hatching
demo (above), and so is altitude linear with f, so
volume is kf^3 -- and k depends on what you want
for a unit (i.e. cube, tetrahedron or something
else).

By convention, we make the cube our unit of volume
but the synergetics switch to the tetrahedron as an
alternative model of 3rd powering (triangles for
2nd powering) is a freedom I have (an inalienable
right even -- part of my pursuit of happiness shall
we say) and using the law of volumes to show the
complementary octahedron is 4 is not circular so
much as a logical consequence of this redefinition.
No rules were broken.

Another cool feature of the regular tetrahedron, which
the cube does not share, is you can slice away sections
parallel to any face and still have a regular tetrahedron
left over.  Cubes become mere rectangular prisms if you
try this at home.

I throw this into the balance because I think we're
talking aesthetics here, bottom line.  Once we get
past some initial prejudice, I think many of us will
find the "synergetics way" has much to recommend it
-- which is NOT to say we have to be rude to the
cube people, nor deny ourselves access to any of
our pre-synergetics metaphysical heritage.  Live
and let live is my motto.  Urner out.

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 May 1998 22:10:15 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
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From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      big dome, anyone?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Question: would anybody be interested in plans for building a big PVC
dome?

A few of you have asked for greenhouse plans - but I was thinking of
approaching an organization to build something bigger. I've generated a
plan for a 50' diameter, half spherical, 10-frequency geodesic. It's be
made up of 1500 PVC struts, each between 2.5' and 3.5' long, using the
technique I described in my last paper. (I believe the cut joins ought
to be able to hold the weight: the bottom layer would have to carry a
distributed strut weight at a 9:1 ratio - I haven't tried it so no
guarantees - anybody know if this would fail?).

The framework would likely cost you less than $800 unless you get some
donated materials... With lightweight plastic-film panels, it could
provide a large, outdoor shaded area.

Something this big put together by a group of 25-30 people would go up
pretty fast once all the struts were cut and drilled (and labeled). Each
layer could be prefabricated in progressively larger "circles" which
would be wingnut-bolted onto the existing structure as the next level.

I just think it'd be awesome to quickly put together a structure as tall
as a three story building with 2000 square feet of open floor space,
maybe with a community group or as a school project.

If anyone's up for it, I'll write up the plans with construction details
and put them on my site.

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 May 1998 08:18:00 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Discrete math

In article <shokwave-0705981003200001@as4-dialup-16.wc-aus.io.com>,
Rob Hafernik <shokwave@well.com> wrote:
>Herman, give it up.  Even the mainframes you cite (which are generally
>well-regarded in float performance) do not process single-precision floats
>faster than single-precision ints.  It's just a fact.

Who uses "single-precision" floats?  On most machines, "double-precision"
floats are even faster.  Many even do the single-precision by converting
into double.  The CYBER 205 used full precision and half precision.

>If they did, then programmers would have been using floats for loop
>iterations and such all these years.

For TINY integers, this is true, again provided that few multiplications
are needed.  By tiny, I mean less than a few billion.  For those of you
who consider this large, you do not know how these can be used.

 Almost every programming language
>out there gives you the ability to distinguish between floats and ints
>when you declare variables.  In many cases (such as loop iterations) it
>makes no semantic difference which you use so programmers almost
>universally choose ints for performance reasons.

Most programmers do not have the slightest idea of how to use the
powers of the machine for speed.  One indication of this is the
lack of a power OPERATOR in most of the post-Fortran languages.
There is a power FUNCTION, which is often much slower, and which
introduces roundoff when it is unnecessary.

There is another reason for using integers for indexing and loop
properties.  The hardware will not use floats for indexing, and
there are often fancy integer loop operations.  Also, few programmers
are able to use the power of the machine instruction set, and it
seems that great efforts are being made to keep them from doing so.

This is getting off-topic, and I suggest we drop it from these groups.
--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 May 1998 09:08:29 -0600
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From:         Rob Hafernik <shokwave@WELL.COM>
Organization: Shokwave Software, Inc
Subject:      Re: Discrete math

In article <6iv0m8$1q4a@b.stat.purdue.edu>, hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu
(Herman Rubin) wrote:

<snip>
>
> Most programmers do not have the slightest idea of how to use the
> powers of the machine for speed.  One indication of this is the
> lack of a power OPERATOR in most of the post-Fortran languages.
> There is a power FUNCTION, which is often much slower, and which
> introduces roundoff when it is unnecessary.

Uh, Herman you're confusing programmers with language designers.  Even
worse, you're assuming your particular requirements (heavy-duty math) are
universal, and they aren't by a long shot.  MOST people don't use
computers for heavy-duty number crunching.  Most general-purpose languages
aren't designed for heavy-duty number-crunching either.

As for using "the powers of the machine for speed", I guess it varies from
programmer to programmer, but I would say that most professional
programmers doing commercial-quality code have a pretty good idea of how
to optimize for speed.  These days, most compilers do a pretty good job on
their own.  Game programmers are obsessed with speed, to name one case.
Most 3D computer games, for example, use hand-coded assembly language
routines for things like matrix multiplies, transforms and so on.  These
not only take advantage of compiler-unfriendly instructions (such as the
FMADDS instruction on the PowerPC chip which does a multiply and an add in
one instruction), but they even take into account the interleaving of
integer and floating point math so as to keep the instruction pipeline as
full as possible and branch-prediction hints that allow branch
instructions to take up zero clock cycles (yes, modern RISC processors
have instructions that can execute in NO time, impossible as it seems).

> There is another reason for using integers for indexing and loop
> properties.  The hardware will not use floats for indexing, and
> there are often fancy integer loop operations.  Also, few programmers
> are able to use the power of the machine instruction set, and it
> seems that great efforts are being made to keep them from doing so.

You can't use floats for indices because it doesn't make semantic sense
and because they're generally larger and slower than needed.  What would
be the value of position 2.125 in an array?  What percentage of programs
out there need arrays with more than a few billion elements?  Those "fancy
integer loop operations" exist because MOST programs can use them.  Chip
design is extremely darwinian, the feature set is quite market-driven.
Loop indices, by the way, can be floats in most modern languages, if you
really want to use them that way:

   for ( double d = 0.0; d < 10.0; d += 1.0 ) {
     // do something with d
     }

This only makes sense if the loop really needs the double.  As you say,
integer loops have inherent advantages in most hardware because the vast
majority of loops are based on integers.

As for Fortran having a power operator in-line, you're correct.  Lots of
compilers, however, will turn that operator into a function call whether
you like it or not.  This is because it often takes several instructions
to calculate the value and the code gets big if you inline it every time.
Some compilers let you say whether you want size or speed, however.  In
languages that don't support a power operator, it's usually no big deal to
inline some assembly that does the job, if speed is your big thing.  As I
said, game programs often do this, because speed is the thing.  If speed
ISN'T that important, then it's best to let the language do its job
unimpeded so that the code is easier to maintain.

> This is getting off-topic, and I suggest we drop it from these groups.

Fine by me, just don't expect me to ignore it when you make silly claims.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 May 1998 10:49:21 -0400
Reply-To:     m_moy@juno.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Moy <m_moy@JUNO.COM>
Organization: None
Subject:      Re: Discrete math
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Herman Rubin wrote:
>
> In article <shokwave-0705981003200001@as4-dialup-16.wc-aus.io.com>,
> Rob Hafernik <shokwave@well.com> wrote:
> >Herman, give it up.  Even the mainframes you cite (which are generally
> >well-regarded in float performance) do not process single-precision floats
> >faster than single-precision ints.  It's just a fact.
>
> Who uses "single-precision" floats?  On most machines, "double-precision"
> floats are even faster.  Many even do the single-precision by converting
> into double.  The CYBER 205 used full precision and half precision.

I'll have to look up the times for this when I can download a processor
manual.

> >If they did, then programmers would have been using floats for loop
> >iterations and such all these years.
>
> For TINY integers, this is true, again provided that few multiplications
> are needed.  By tiny, I mean less than a few billion.  For those of you
> who consider this large, you do not know how these can be used.

Use a 64-bit machine. I'm typing this on a 400Mhz Alpha that handles
64-bit
integers natively.

>  Almost every programming language
> >out there gives you the ability to distinguish between floats and ints
> >when you declare variables.  In many cases (such as loop iterations) it
> >makes no semantic difference which you use so programmers almost
> >universally choose ints for performance reasons.
>
> Most programmers do not have the slightest idea of how to use the
> powers of the machine for speed.  One indication of this is the
> lack of a power OPERATOR in most of the post-Fortran languages.
> There is a power FUNCTION, which is often much slower, and which
> introduces roundoff when it is unnecessary.

For large programs, you're better off doing a good design and then
letting the language compilers optimize for speed. If your application
is then too slow, you do a code path analysis to find the code that
is frequently used and then optimize that by writing in assembler
or improving your algorithm.

> There is another reason for using integers for indexing and loop
> properties.  The hardware will not use floats for indexing, and
> there are often fancy integer loop operations.  Also, few programmers
> are able to use the power of the machine instruction set, and it
> seems that great efforts are being made to keep them from doing so.

Maintenance costs for assembly is a lot higher than it is for HLLs
which is a big cost factor in commercial software. Would you rather
fix Y2K problems for a million lines of COBOL or 50 million lines
of assembler?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 May 1998 14:32:01 -0400
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Yves Allaire <yallaire@LINO.COM>
Organization: UUNET Canada News Transport
Subject:      Lat Long convert to UTM
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I'm looking for the formulas to translate Lat-Long coordinates to UTM, I
once had a Power Basic program from one of the users in a Newsgroup, I
would like to get them again (I had a major problem with both my
computer and backup)

The basic routine was called GP2UTM / UTM2GP if some one can tell me
where can I download them I' be very thankfull. I'll send him the
translator I build with this formula.

Thanks
Yves Allaire
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 May 1998 19:14:40 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: Lat Long convert to UTM
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

This is the Geodesic newsgroup, not the Geodetic Newsgroup.  It's
amazing how just one little letter make such a difference.
We use Big Blue Marble's "Geographic Calculator" program at work for
such conversions. It costs about $300 dollars. Unless you just want to
do the programing, It would probably be much more cost effective to buy
their product. Besides, it does alot of other coordinate system
conversions including user defined It works forward and backward and
with "batch" files. It is a well-written windows-compliant program.

respectfully,
Tony.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 May 1998 19:00:02 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Fuller Projection Map Coordinates
Comments: cc: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Round globes and many flat maps have the potential for x-y coordination.
If I say a city is at x longitude and y latitude, it can be located.

The Fuller Projection could also use x-y coordinates, but they would be
peppered around the edges of the map in a not especially friendly fashion.
The strength of the Fuller Projection is being able to see the entire
planet at once without distortion - but could it also be used as a map to
look at parts of the planet, to serve as a guide to specific locations?

My intuitive coordination of the map would be to use the 'North Pole' as
one coordinate.  It is close to the center of the map and is culturally
neutral.  A second coordinate could be the 360 degrees found in a circle
going in a clockwise direction.  Using these coordinates, you could say a
particular city is X kilometers from the North Pole at degree Y.  A rough
example: Minneapolis is 3000 km / 90 degrees (perhaps 3K/90).

How could this use of the Fuller Projection be expanded?  And what others
ways can the Fuller Projection be utilized?

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 May 1998 16:19:20 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Planning a Bigger Dome, Part I
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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A short description and drawing of the current train of thought...

    http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/supporting

--

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 May 1998 15:47:36 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Planning a Bigger Dome, Part I
Comments: To: monkey@one.net
In-Reply-To:  <35560BC7.989499CC@one.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dave,

I believe your design below is similar to Fuller's Ford Rotunda dome (Octet
Truss/4 Frequency Icosa).  See _The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller_,
pages 196-98.

Nice graphic, BTW.


****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************

> -----Original Message-----
> From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
> [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of David Anderson
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 1998 01:19 PM
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: Planning a Bigger Dome, Part I
>
>
> A short description and drawing of the current train of thought...
>
>     http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/supporting
>
> --
>
> - Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 May 1998 00:37:30 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         GDavis1608 <gdavis1608@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      Signed copy of Synergetifcs

I am interested in selling my signed 1st addition copy of Synergetics, by R. B.
Fuller.  Any serious interest should be addressed to:

GDavis1608@aol.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 May 1998 05:42:15 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Re: Planning a Bigger Dome, Part I
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Great! If Fuller did something like it already, then I know I must not be too
far afield... I wish I had more of his books.

- Dave

Joe S. Moore wrote:

> Dave,
>
> I believe your design below is similar to Fuller's Ford Rotunda dome (Octet
> Truss/4 Frequency Icosa).  See _The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller_,
> pages 196-98.
>
> Nice graphic, BTW.
>
> ****************************************
> * Joe S. Moore
> * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
> * joemoore@cruzio.com
> * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
> * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
> ****************************************
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
> > [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of David Anderson
> > Sent: Sunday, May 10, 1998 01:19 PM
> > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> > Subject: Planning a Bigger Dome, Part I
> >
> >
> > A short description and drawing of the current train of thought...
> >
> >     http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/supporting
> >
> > --
> >
> > - Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
> >
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 May 1998 11:21:35 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      FW: Bibliofind want match
Comments: cc: SYNERGETICS _LIST <synergetics-l@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************

-----Original Message-----
From: admin@bibliofind.com [mailto:admin@bibliofind.com]
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 1998 04:17 PM
To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
Subject: Bibliofind want match


This mail was created 05/10/1998 07:16:38 PM.
The books listed below match the "want" which you entered:

all fields: "Buckminster Fuller"

To order or review the books listed below, copy the following
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http://208.144.214.69/cgi-bin/texis.exe/search.vor/edwant.html?qa=&qt=&qc=%2
2Buckminster+Fuller%22

edited by Robert Snyder: BUCKMINSTER FULLER AN AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL
MONOLOGUE/SCENARIO; N.Y: St.Martin's Press, 1980. HB, VERY FINE VERY FINE,
OVERSIZE.ILLUSTRATED  (UR#:BOOKS002014I) USD 25.00
    Offered for sale by... Daniela Grunblatt, Reader's Town
    507 N.Tustin st., , Orange, CA, 92867  USA
    Tel: (714)771-1820 Fax: (714)771-1820 Web Site: home1.gte.net/readers
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Kenner, Hugh: Bucky, A Guided Tour of Buckminster Fuller; New York: William
Morrow & Company, 1973. HC, Near Fine in chipped DJ, Chipping to DJ. Creased
DJ. Tape repairs to DJ. Stain to front DJ., Archaeology  (UR#:BOOKS2011060I)
US$ 15.00
    Offered for sale by... Jim Kremer, Book Baron,  Anaheim
    1236 South Magnolia Ave., , Anaheim, CA, 92804 USA
    Tel: 714-527-7022 Fax: 714-527-5634 Web Site: magbaron.com
    Email: bkbaron1@pacbell.net Credit Cards: all major CC's accepted
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    Shipping: UPS:$5 first bk,$1 ea add'l--outside USA extra

VOSTELL, Wolf & Dick HIGGINS. : Fantastic Architecture. ; 8vo, illustrated,
cloth, dust jacket. (No place): Something Else Press, (1969). First edition.
With illustrations and/or texts by Claes Oldenburg, Kurt Schwitters, Carolee
Schneemann, Joseph Beuys, John Cage, Buckminster Fuller, among others. Frank
p. 33. Fine copy. 40-362    USD 350.00
    Offered for sale by... James S. Jaffe,  James S. Jaffe Rare Books
    367 W. Lancaster Avenue, P. O. Box 496, Haverford, Pennsylvania, 19041
USA
    Tel: 610-649-4221 Fax: 610-649-4542 Web Site: www.literaryfirsts.com
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MasterCard
    Returns Policy: Any book may be returned within 7 days of receipt.
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Applewhite, E. J.: Paradise Mislaid: Birth, Death, And The Human Predicament
Of Being Biological; New York: St. Martins Press, [1991]. 1st ed., Hb,
VG+/VG+ (slight DJ wear to edges), Bucky Fuller's collaborator on
Synergetics, Synergetics 2, and Synergetics Dictionary: The Mind Of
Buckminster Fuller., Biology  science biology physics metaphysics
anthropology nature  (UR#:BOOKS013033I)  US$ 15.00
    Offered for sale by... Philip Bevis,  Arundel Books
    1309 1st Ave., , Seattle, WA, 98101 USA
    Tel: 206 624 4442 Fax: 206 624 4443 Web Site:
    Email: ARUNDEL2@interloc.com Credit Cards: MC/Visa/Amex/Disc/Diners/JCB
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Hassan, Ihab: Liberations: New Essays on the Humanities in Revolution.;
Wesleyan, 1971., hc;gd/gd (this is an x-library copy with all the usual
library marks, but hingesand text and dj in good condition); John Cage,
Daniel Stern, Michael Wolff, Hayden White, Louis Mink, Frank Kermode, David
Daiches, Harold Rosenberg, Richard Poirier, Leslie A. Fiedler, Ihab Hassan,
R. Buckminster Fuller; lit crit. "H", Literary Criticism  (UR#:3860)  USD
15.00
    Offered for sale by... Pat McDermott and Lisa Bitney,  McDermott Books
    449-D State Street, , Madison, WI, 53703 Dane
    Tel: 608-284-0744 Fax: same Web Site:
    Email: mcdermottbooks@globaldialog.com Credit Cards: visa/mastercard
    Returns Policy: full refund with returned book in same shape
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for the first book, $1.50 for each after that; shipping elsewhere available.

Robertson, Donald: Mind's Eye of Buckminster Fuller; First, Very Good / Very
Good, Science / Technology  buckminster Fuller  (UR#:OLYMPIA010341I)  US$
12.50
    Offered for sale by... Paul Pugh,  Olympia Books
    208 South Front Street,  , Dowagiac, MI, 49047
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order
    Returns Policy: Within 2 weeks if not as described
    Shipping: postpaid in US; 1st cl. add $3. Overseas at cost.

R. Buckminster Fuller: UTOPIA OR OBLIVION: THE PROSPECTS FOR HUMANITY;
Overlook Press. NY 1969. First Edition. ESSAYS. Some light underlining
though mostly erased. A Near Fine copy in Fine dustwrapper.  US$ 35.00
    Offered for sale by... Paul & Ginny Merz, Sandpiper Books
    110 & 112 South Pacific Hwy, PO Box 1439, Long Beach, WA, 98631 USA
    Tel: (360) 642-4969 Fax:  Web Site: None
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    Shipping: $4.00 for 1st book, add $1.00 for each additional (Continental
US Only)


---------------------------------------------
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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 May 1998 12:40:55 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      WORLD LIFE EXPECTANCY
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"Report: World Life Expectancy on the Rise

People around the world can expect to live longer, healthier lives,
according to the World Health Organization."

http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/brief3.html


****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 May 1998 17:24:59 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      RBF: A 20th Century Philosopher
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

New online: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bio.html
"R. Buckminster Fuller: A 20th Century Philosopher"

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 May 1998 12:40:36 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         The Butterfly <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      Domes lighter once built than their component parts? (Need a
              reference)

Does anyone remember the reference for how a dome weighs less once it's
build than its component parts, due to the lifting force of the air mass
inside it? I think it's probably mainly for larger buildings, like the 450'
one in Southern California.

I was telling someone about it, and now can't remember where I read
it. Anyone know this?

--
Pat
           ___________________Think For Yourself____________________
           Patrick G. Salsbury - http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/
      Check out the Reality Sculptors Project: http://www.sculptors.com/
           ---------------------------------------------------------
          To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
                                                -- Thomas Edison
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 03:40:58 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Douglas Widdows
              <moriarty.getridofthis@UNION4.SU.SWIN.EDU.AU>
Organization: Swinburne University of Technology
Subject:      Fuller still alive?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Anyone know if Bucky is still alive?

--
regards,
Brian Widdows
-----------------------------------------
http://union4.su.swin.edu.au/~moriarty
moriarty@rmthis.union4.su.swin.edu.au
widdows@rmthis.bud.swin.edu.au
-----------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 11:52:14 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fuller still alive?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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I believe he died shortly after his wife died, in 1983.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Douglas Widdows <moriarty.getridofthis@UNION4.SU.SWIN.EDU.AU>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 5:10 AM
Subject: Fuller still alive?


>Anyone know if Bucky is still alive?
>
>--
>regards,
>Brian Widdows
>-----------------------------------------
>http://union4.su.swin.edu.au/~moriarty
>moriarty@rmthis.union4.su.swin.edu.au
>widdows@rmthis.bud.swin.edu.au
>-----------------------------------------
>
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Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 11:58:01 -0500
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Comments: To: Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
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Anyone know how I can get a hold of Hopster's book=85

"How to design and build your dome home."

I should have reported it "lost" to the library when I found it over a
year ago!
Kevin wrote:
>I believe he died shortly after his wife died, in 1983.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian Douglas Widdows <moriarty.getridofthis@UNION4.SU.SWIN.EDU.AU>
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
>To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.=
EDU>
>Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 5:10 AM
>Subject: Fuller still alive?
>
>
>>Anyone know if Bucky is still alive?
>>
>>--
>>regards,
>>Brian Widdows
>>-----------------------------------------
>>http://union4.su.swin.edu.au/~moriarty
>>moriarty@rmthis.union4.su.swin.edu.au
>>widdows@rmthis.bud.swin.edu.au
>>-----------------------------------------
>>
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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD><BODY><FONT FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D3 COLOR=3D"#000000">=
Anyone =
know how I can get a hold of Hopster's book=85<BR>
<BR>
&quot;How =
to design and build your dome home.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
I =
should have reported it &quot;lost&quot; =
to the library when I found it over a<BR>
year =
ago!<BR>
Kevin wrote:</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D1 COLOR=3D"#000000"><BR>
&gt;I =
believe he died shortly after his wife died, =
in 1983.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<BR>
&gt;From: =
Brian Douglas Widdows &lt;</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D1 =
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&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;Anyone =
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&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;--<BR>
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&gt;&gt;Brian =
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&gt;&gt;-----------------------------------------<BR>
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Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 11:51:10 -0500
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From:         Curt Flowers <cjflower@UIUC.EDU>
Organization: University of Illinois
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Brian Douglas Widdows wrote:
>
> Anyone know if Bucky is still alive?
>
> --
> regards,
> Brian Widdows
> -----------------------------------------
> http://union4.su.swin.edu.au/~moriarty
> moriarty@rmthis.union4.su.swin.edu.au
> widdows@rmthis.bud.swin.edu.au
> -----------------------------------------

Yes, I, for one know.
He died in 1983 at age 88.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 18:05:05 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Larouche/Fuller Connection?
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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A hierarchy of shapes which reveals something new about space-filling
and the Periodic Table of Elements.  Synergetics?  Not in this case...
it's "The Geometric Basis for the Periodicity of the Elements" by
Laurence Hecht, an article in the (Larouche) magazine "21st Century
Science & Technology," May-June 1988.  One University of Chicago
physicist Dr. Robert J. Moon is said to have developed his theories in
1986 "while working at the Fusion Energy Foundation in Leesburg, VA."
More details are apparently to be found in the (Larouche) magazine
"Executive Intelligence Review," October 1987 (haven't seen that one).

The "21st Century" article does not mention synergetics or Fuller at
all.  Perhaps Dr. Moon came to similar conclusions (although he is cube
based and not tetrahedron based) independently... but it is revealing of
the lack of dialogue about synergetics that either (a) no one thought to
point Dr. Moon to a wealth of similar research that had already been
amassed or (b) Moon and/or Hecht and/or "21st Century" knew of Fuller
but did not feel obligated to credit him.

A quick scan for Dr. Robert J. Moon at the University of Chicago revealed
nothing online... any details welcome.  For now,  I say file it under
Kirby Urner's "pseudo-synergetics."

-T.

--
  Trevor Blake box2321@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/
  Post Office Box 2321, Portland Oregon 97208-2321, United States
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 17:06:10 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      NEW PICS
Comments: To: wizard@prysm.net
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Jay,

I love the new Bucky material at your site
(http://www.globalnow.com/nightlife/Default.ssi), especially the color pics
of Bucky & Ann and the Fly's Eye Visitor Center in Los Angeles!

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 22:46:47 -0500
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From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fuller still alive?
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Bucky is still alive......

In his books and  in the work and works of the people involved in this
and related mailing lists who keep his goals, dreams and ideals in sight
and in mind and in their hearts.
=========================================================================
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From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts? (Need a
              reference)
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How was the weight of the dome measured ?  Was this determined
empirically or theoretically ?
I have the same problem with this concept that I have with the Bournoili
dome self-cooling.   I have never been able to replicate the self
cooling dome.  Has anyone been able to make an enclosed geodesic sphere
float or proven that a dome weighs less after construction?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 21:31:47 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Larouche/Fuller Connection?
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96.980513180137.15283A-100000@user2.teleport.co m>
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>A quick scan for Dr. Robert J. Moon at the University of Chicago revealed
>nothing online... any details welcome.  For now,  I say file it under
>Kirby Urner's "pseudo-synergetics."
>
>-T.
>

Well, technically I'd say not, though I appreciate where you're comin'
from here.=20

LaRouche is a self-styled Platonist, with a real penchant for polyhedra,=20
but the storyline is such that we trace back to Riemann on the side of=20
good and Euler is one of the baddies as I recall, strangely enough.=20

It's a very intense polarity, the LaRouche narrative, with Venice being=20
the focus of evil. I wrote to Tarpley once asking of maybe the Fuller=20
School was too Venetian then (cite 'Critical Path')? -- dunno if a firm=20
verdict was ever returned, but in any case it's true that LaRouche seems=20
to keep silent on whether his own "science driver" philosophy is in=20
synch with the design science "make a difference through artifacts"=20
approach -- seems it might as well be.

Anyway, a key criterion for something's being labeled pseudo-synergetics=20
is someone has to claim it to be synergetics in the first place.

Ahem (drink of water), and I quote (last sentence key -- in bold type
on the web page):

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

1. Why 'Pseudo-Synergetics'?=20

Quasi-inevitably, any core set of media recordings suggestive of ways=20
to continue "along similar lines" or "in altogether new directions"=20
will also give rise to "other works in the same vein" some of which=20
will "stray over the line" into being something else, something other=20
than "the genuine article" or "the real McCoy"=20

     McCoy (me-koi=B4) noun
     Informal.
     The authentic thing or quality; something that is not an=20
     imitation or substitute: This gem is the real McCoy.
     [Origin unknown.] [1]

Such "outside the lines" works may be classified as "pseudo" meaning=20
"false" or "phoney." But they may only be so classified if posing as=20
or purporting to be the real thing (e.g. Synergetics).=20

By definition, pseudo-synergetics must self-advertise itself as=20
genuine synergetics=20

From: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/pseudo.html

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

I've since learned a theory re the origin of "the real McCoy" --
a certain 1800s engineer of African descent came up with a=20
lubricating device for affixing to a steam engine at some
critical juncture.  Although such devices were not new, this
design was superior and more reliable than any previous, and
caught on, with engineers saying they wanted "the real McCoy"
for their steam engines.  Mr. McCoy (forget first name) went
on to become a world authority on the lubrication of heavy
machinery.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 23:50:53 -0500
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From:         Jonathan Thompson <coolbear@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts? (Need a
              reference)
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I do not know of anyone who has measured this.  But technically, no, no dome
(or sphere, whatever its construction technique) will ever truly weigh less
than its constituent parts.  But then, neither does a hot air balloon, which
have been flying passengers since the 1700's!  What it comes down to is an
issue of buoyancy.  When a hot air balloon has the air inside heated up
sufficiently, the combined weight of the air inside the balloon with the
combined weight of the balloon is less than that of the surrounding air.
Effectively, the specific gravity of the liquid insde the balloon (air can
be considered a liquid for this discussion, just a (usually) very thin
liquid!) is lighter than the outside air.  The same thing explains why oil
floats on the top of water.  If you haven't heard the term specific gravity
before (I apologize for those who have, but someone is likely to not have
heard of it, considering the number of people reading this) it is the
relative weight of one liquid compared to another, water being the standard,
and this at a set standard temperature, somewhere around 68-72 degrees
Fahrenheit (I can't remember, someone correct me if I'm wrong.  It has been
over 6 years since I had hydraulics/pnuematics) since the density of water
also varies significantly over a temperature range.  In fact, water is an
odd duck for its curve.  It is the only known liquid (most anything can be
considered a liquid.  Glass is just a very slow moving liquid that can
actually be proven.  Glass windows hundreds of years old actually are
thicker at the bottom from gravity!) that actually gets less dense as it
gets colder.  This allows us to have ice at the top of a body of water,
instead of forming at the bottom first.  Sorry about the tangent there.

The statement about a dome weighing less than the weight of its parts can be
argued using this explanation.  A dome is just an efficient enough hard
shell structure that it can act as a hot air balloon.  It must, of course,
be sufficiently large for the temperature differential to help in that
cause.  If the inside and outside air temperatures are identical, then you
gain no buoyancy.  If the inside air temperature is greater than the outside
air temperature by an appropriate amount, then it will be a buoyant
structure.  At this time, unless you wish to take advantage of that
property, it would be wise to have it securely strapped to the ground,
unless you wish to equalize the buoyancy.  For a small dome, the temperature
differences will be quite significant.  For a very large one, a fraction of
a degree is all it takes.  The area of material needed to surround the
interior of a sphere increases by the law of squares.  For covering twice
the square footage, it can take 4 times as much material to do so.  A
conventional structure has a worse ratio, due to having to support the
weight of a bigger structure.  The key is that unlike a conventional
structure, which tends to have more overhead due to included interior walls
and floors, etc. that are needed for a rectangular building to get very
high, a dome does not need to have anything in the interior, and only needs
to have the exterior walls.  This can be scaled (it appears) indefinitely.
The property that allows a dome to generate lift (or the apparent property
of it weighing less than the material it is made of) is the fact that as the
diameter is doubled, increasing the floor and surface area by 4 times, the
volume is increased by the law of cubes (or 3rd powering for the purists)
and so is 8 times what the previous structure of unit 1 diameter contains.

I haven't done the math, but you could quite possibly blow the top off of a
dome if you had a hot enough fire burning inside with good seals.  Oddly
enough, that may be a more survivable fire for damage (even if it did blow
the house apart) because the debris would most likely not fall on you and
trap you, crush you, etc. and give you a nasty experience.  This theory is
based on some minor small scale experiments (I have no intentions of trying
it in a house, not even with a mouse!) involving using plastic grocery bags
for very short term use hot air balloons over a gas stove (hint.  They melt
within a short time!  Be careful, I suspect the fumes are probably not
healthy!).  It doesn't take long (or much heat) for a plastic bag to become
a hot air balloon.

I hope I haven't rambled on excessively, and that I have helped people to
understand the physics a little better!

> -----Original Message-----
> From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
> [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of anthony kalenak
> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 10:59 PM
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts? (Need
> a reference)
>
>
> How was the weight of the dome measured ?  Was this determined
> empirically or theoretically ?
> I have the same problem with this concept that I have with the Bournoili
> dome self-cooling.   I have never been able to replicate the self
> cooling dome.  Has anyone been able to make an enclosed geodesic sphere
> float or proven that a dome weighs less after construction?
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 May 1998 21:59:41 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts? (Need a
              reference)
In-Reply-To:  <199805140358.UAA25722@mailtod-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
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Fuller's 'Critical Path' has info re the 'Cloud Nine' idea -- teathered
geodesic spheres serving as high altitude life support platforms.
Same principle as hot air balloons, but with tougher skins.

Jay Baldwin says he has experienced the dramatic cooling effects of some
domes first hand -- I think 'Bucky Works' (John Wiley, 1996) gets into
it some.

I'm not aware of any claim that domes weigh less than the sum of their
components, only that as we get better at doing domes, we use components
more efficently -- the familiar 'ephemeralization' meme.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 May 1998 02:14:59 -0400
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From:         nicksanspam@ECE.VILL.EDU
Organization: Villanova University
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts?

The Butterfly  <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM> wrote:

>Does anyone remember the reference for how a dome weighs less once it's
>build than its component parts, due to the lifting force of the air mass
>inside it?

I don't recall reading that anywhere, but it makes sense. If the dome
is airtight at the top and warmer and/or more humid than the outdoors,
the air inside will have a bouyant force, like a hot air balloon.

The 1993 ASHRAE Handbook of Fundamentals says 70 F moist air weighs
0.073 lb/ft^3, and 30 F moist air weighs 0.081, and a 450' hemisphere
contains 23.9 million cubic feet of air, so a 70 F dome might weigh
23.9x10^6(0.081-0.073) = 180K pounds or 90 tons less on an average
30 F January day in Philadelphia.

How big does a "lightweight" dome have to be to float?

Nick

Love your .sig :-)

>          To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>                                                    -- Thomas Edison
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 May 1998 07:50:38 -0500
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From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts? (Need a
              reference)
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This being the case, shouldn't a standard translucent or transparent
balloon (outside on a  sunny day) blown up with the same air mixture
that surrounds it, float after some minutes in the sun.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 May 1998 09:18:31 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts? (Need a
              reference)
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At 07:50 AM 5/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>This being the case, shouldn't a standard translucent or transparent
>balloon (outside on a  sunny day) blown up with the same air mixture
>that surrounds it, float after some minutes in the sun.
>

You need to keep in mind the fact the surface area goes up as
a 2nd power, volume as a 3rd power of radial expansion, i.e.
the weight of the skin per enclosed volume eventually gets to
a point where that small temperature differential is enough
to keep the skin afloat.  A balloon is too small to take
serious advantage of this concept which is why a different
gas mix, substantially lighter, is needed (helium) or some
seriously hotter air (hot air balloon).

A 'Cloud Nine' geodesic sphere is similar to a ship, which
although very heavy weighs less than the water it displaces
(only has to displace water up to the hull water line to be
in equilibrium i.e. afloat).  The 'Cloud Nine' is actually
more like a scuba diver (who is mostly water inside), who
uses weights (used to be around the waist, now tend to be
on the tank) and a boyancy compensator (life vest, usually
inflated straight from the tank -- and sometimes on the tank)
to achieve "neutral boyancy".

A 'Cloud Nine' displaces a whole lot of air, is like a sturdy
soap bubble on a spring day (humans sand-grain sized for scale)
and which tends to gently rise and/or float away on the wind
(hence teathered).

Kirby
(NAUI certified)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 May 1998 09:26:03 -0500
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From:         Curt Flowers <cjflower@UIUC.EDU>
Organization: University of Illinois
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts?
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There's a reference to floating geodesics spheres in Baldwin's book:
BuckyWorks in one of the late chapters. A futuristic vision of floating
cities. A dome a mile or more in diameter will apparently float because
the warmth of the air in the huge enclosed space will overcome the
weight of the surrounding dome. I can get chapter and page for you when
I get to my book, if you want. Someone else may also be able to give you
the reference in Bucky's works where Baldwin took this from.

The Butterfly wrote:
>
> Does anyone remember the reference for how a dome weighs less once it's
> build than its component parts, due to the lifting force of the air mass
> inside it? I think it's probably mainly for larger buildings, like the 450'
> one in Southern California.
>
> I was telling someone about it, and now can't remember where I read
> it. Anyone know this?
>
> --
> Pat
>            ___________________Think For Yourself____________________
>            Patrick G. Salsbury - http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/
>       Check out the Reality Sculptors Project: http://www.sculptors.com/
>            ---------------------------------------------------------
>           To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>                                                 -- Thomas Edison
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 May 1998 14:41:58 -0400
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From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts? (Need a
              reference)
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anthony,
You wrote:
<< Has anyone been able to make an enclosed geodesic sphere
float or proven that a dome weighs less after construction?>>

      If I remember correctly, the force of gravity is inversely
proportional to the square of the distance between objects.  Therefore a
dome weighed 1/2 mile above the earth will weigh less than the weight of
the components on the surface.  The problem with this line of thought is
that it is the difference in air density, caused by differing temperature=
s,
that causes the buoyant force and the air is less dense at 1/2 mile than =
on
the surface.  =

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 May 1998 16:19:59 GMT
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From:         JustWINK <justwink@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts?

As to domes being "LTA":

Let's not forget that Bucky was actually talking about
tensegrity-based, tensile skinned domes when he made
these comments.  I am sure that we could build a huge
dome in which this effect, though real, would be quite
insignificant.  Think, for instance, of the big steel
sports domes.  It is generally believed that no more
of this type of big structure will be built, or at least
that this approach will not be used for domes much
bigger, mostly because the economics are so bad.

Look to the atlanta-dome (see Bucky's aspension
structure patent) or the more traditional Millenium
dome for a better feel for what big structures will
be like.

There is a project in the works, subject to wacky
political forces, to build a very large free span
dome in the DC area.  This could easily end up being
done with real RBF-style geodesic tensegrity, and
in this dome heat-lift would be a very real issue.
It is believed that at some point the lifting forces
will exceed the weight itself, and the dome would
be only anchored.  It might even be moved just by
keeping the air under it hot and slowly floating it
around.  Hence, Bucky's floating cities, a simple
extension of this idea.

I'm sure we all would love to see some informed
technical speculation about the estimated sizes,
weights of big domes and how temperature
differentials would affect them.

Wink
www.winkworks.com

**  If I had a clever sig, it would go here  **
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 May 1998 00:00:08 -0700
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From:         Patrick Salsbury <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info

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 _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________
                 Patrick G. Salsbury <salsbury@sculptors.com>
                     http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/
                           -----------------------
                      Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 May 1998 10:08:46 -0400
Reply-To:     questions@censuscd.com
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From:         Craig Cornelius <questions@CENSUSCD.COM>
Organization: GeoLytics, Inc.
Subject:      Maps+Estimates+...=1CD
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  around a specific address for any number of miles

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CDs.  GIS World noted in a March, 1997, review of CensusCD 1.1,
"Performance of the demographic queries is outstanding. If all
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info@censuscd.com.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 May 1998 12:39:56 -0800
Reply-To:     bward@metro.net
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From:         Bruce Ward <bward@METRO.NET>
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Hi Folks,

Someone posted a recipe for a waterproofing sealer not too long ago,
either here or in the 'domesteading' list, and I accidentally deleted
it.  Could you pleeease repost it?

Lime, something, something,   mix to the consistency of housepaint, etc.
for use on below grade concrete.   Thanks much.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 May 1998 15:49:50 -0500
Reply-To:     ira ratner <iratner@bpicom.com>
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From:         ira ratner <iratner@BPICOM.COM>
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How the heck do I unsubscribe to this list?

All I wanted was simple information on plans for building a small modified =
geodesic for a weekend property. (I wanted the plans from Gene Hopster's =
book, "How to design and build your dome home." It's out of print but I =
had access to a copy once.)

And since subscribing to this list on Wednesday, I've gotten a thousand e-=
mails=85ranging in subject matter from floating cities=85to theories about =
final-weight-less-than-material-weight=85to some kind of weird "air =
conditioning effect!!!!!

I give up! You're all smarter than me! I just want to find this book, =
build my little Xanadu, and unsubscribe!

Sorry if I sound upset, but here at my office, I'M the smartest one=85so =
it really bothers me to discover what a real moron I am. =

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bruce Ward wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>Someone posted a recipe for a waterproofing sealer not too long ago,
>either here or in the 'domesteading' list, and I accidentally deleted
>it.  Could you pleeease repost it?
>
>Lime, something, something,   mix to the consistency of housepaint, etc.
>for use on below grade concrete.   Thanks much.
>
>RFC822 header
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>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 May 1998 16:42:31 -0400
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From:         Jim Huston <jhuston@PEGANET.NET>
Organization: Pegasus Software & Imaging
Subject:      Re: Fuller still alive?

No - Sadly - He is not, and I do not remember the year of his death.

I remember the announcement of his passing -  I had been reading that he
sometimes welcomed visitors and students that requested permission to camp
on his island to show him their ideas and designs. I was in the process of
finding the correct address to make such a request when the announcement was
made. To this day I regret the fact that I did not act sooner...

Jim Huston

Brian Douglas Widdows wrote in message <6jb4oa$v0k$1@lucy.cc.swin.edu.au>...
>Anyone know if Bucky is still alive?
>--
>regards,
>Brian Widdows
>-----------------------------------------
>http://union4.su.swin.edu.au/~moriarty
>moriarty@rmthis.union4.su.swin.edu.au
>widdows@rmthis.bud.swin.edu.au
>-----------------------------------------
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 May 1998 16:52:28 -0400
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From:         Jim Huston <jhuston@PEGANET.NET>
Organization: Pegasus Software & Imaging
Subject:      Re: getting into a discussion

Well Jim, I'm reading your note in a geodesic  newsgroup so you should
probably do just what you are doing now... Post again...

Who is the "We" that owns it - How big is it, who designed it, what is the
major material construction and if it is anywhere as big as I think it would
have to be to make that claim - how did you finance it and for what purpose
was it intended. as you can see - you have the attention of at least one
person in South West Florida.

Jim Huston

Jim Downey wrote in message <01bd7d97$1e10e7c0$58ee3fcb@default>...
>I am technically not sure how I talk to you all.  I think we own the
>largest geodesic dome in Australia and would love to communicate.  Please
>advise.
>Jim Downey
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 May 1998 09:18:19 -0400
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From:         Robin Lee Gable <gable@BLLATLANTIC.NET>
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Where exactly have you been living mister Flowers?
----------
In article <3559CF7E.25AB@uiuc.edu>, Curt Flowers <cjflower@uiuc.edu> wrote:


>Brian Douglas Widdows wrote:
>>
>> Anyone know if Bucky is still alive?
>>
>> --
>> regards,
>> Brian Widdows
>> -----------------------------------------
>> http://union4.su.swin.edu.au/~moriarty
>> moriarty@rmthis.union4.su.swin.edu.au
>> widdows@rmthis.bud.swin.edu.au
>> -----------------------------------------
>
>Yes, I, for one know.
>He died in 1983 at age 88.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 May 1998 12:09:46 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: 250 MPH WINDS
Comments: To: wizard@prysm.net
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Jay,

The reason I was so curious is that in _The Dymaxion World of Buckminster
Fuller_ on page 61 it states (regarding the DEW Line 55' diam fiberglass
radomes) "...they withstood static load testing for wind velocities in
excess of 220 miles per hour."  Such a dome would be able to withstand most
F4 tornadoes or hurricanes (winds between 207-260 mph).

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: wizard@prysm.net <wizard@prysm.net>
To: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 09:01 PM
Subject: Re: 250 MPH WINDS


>This would be obtained by making the structure with no glass in the
>openings and reenforcing any windows with appropriate stiffness. The walls
>in this design are 4 feet thick and for high wind stress integrity, solid
>ferro-cement armature design must be used for the structure. This would
>make it very expensive but able to withstand the stated wind speeds, a f3
>tornado.
>
>>Jay,
>>
>>In regards your Nebula Dome you say that it can "withstand 250 mile an
hour
>>winds...".  Could you please provide the details behind this claim?  I
would
>>be VERY interested in knowing how you (or whoever) arrived at this
>>conclusion--computer simulation, wind tunnel tests, actual full-scale
>>prototype--what? Please post your reply to the Geodesic List, if possible.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>****************************************
>>* Joe S. Moore
>>* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
>>* joemoore@cruzio.com
>>* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
>>* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>>****************************************
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 May 1998 13:43:39 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         default <default@HILLS.CCSF.CC.CA.US>
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
Subject:      floating geodesic
Mime-Version: 1.0
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is there truly a foating geodesic city of something off of australia?
could you tell me where or send a photo or info?  thanks
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 May 1998 13:44:43 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         default <default@HILLS.CCSF.CC.CA.US>
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
Subject:      floating geodesic
Mime-Version: 1.0
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is there truly a floating geodesic city or something off of australia?
could you tell me where or send a photo or info?  thanks

my email:  sayheyjay@hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 May 1998 19:55:09 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      BUCKY TOUR (REAL AUDIO)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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St. Martins Productions sample video:

BUCKMINSTER FULLER TOUR

160 x 120 - File Size: 1.7 mg - Video length: 50secs
Edited in Adobe Premiere and compressed for the web with Media Cleaner Pro

http://www.stmartinprod.com/Pages/Bucky.html


****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 May 1998 02:05:55 -0400
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From:         "J.E. HILL MULTIMEDIA" <jmccomp724@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject:      Downloadable Computer Software
Comments: To: jmccomp724@aol.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Welcome to J.E. HILL MULTIMEDIA TryAndBuy Software subsite. Your place on
the Web for DOWNLOADABLE Software. Just click on any of the products listed
to have them downloaded to your computer. Look for the TryAndBuy=99 logo for
fully functional software that you may try  before you buy. Thank you Shop
Today!! http://www.tryandbuy.com/content.asp?00=3DJ.E.HillMultimedia
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 May 1998 07:52:17 -0400
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From:         Jim Huston <jhuston@PEGANET.NET>
Organization: Pegasus Software & Imaging
Subject:      Questions

Three questions:

1) Is this a moderated list. If yes, who is the moderator and what is the
E-Mail address to contact that person.

2) Are some message posts deleted without notice and without being posted?

3) How long are messages retained for retrieval and are they archived?

I have just Re-Set my configuration in order to download all messages, read
and un-read. I did not get two messages that I had previously read and
quoted from. In addition, a post that I sent did not appear even though
another that I sent later that same night and to the same address did.

Jim Huston
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 May 1998 10:37:50 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: bucky realaudio
Comments: To: gregor markowitz <gregor@myhouse.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Gregor,

I just passed the web address along.  It's not my web site. Maybe someone
else on the Geodesic List can help you.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: gregor markowitz <gregor@myhouse.com>
To: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 08:56 AM
Subject: bucky realaudio


>I get a server error.
>Can somebody over there re-initialize the real server?
>-g
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 May 1998 11:22:51 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Questions
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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(See below)

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Huston <jhuston@PEGANET.NET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Sunday, May 17, 1998 09:18 AM
Subject: Questions


>Three questions:
>
>1) Is this a moderated list. If yes, who is the moderator and what is the
>E-Mail address to contact that person.
>
Unmoderated. List "owned" by Patrick Salsbury.

>2) Are some message posts deleted without notice and without being posted?
>
Depends on the policy of your internet provider.

>3) How long are messages retained for retrieval and are they archived?
>
Again, it depends on the policy of your IP; All posts to the Geodesic List
are archived.

See: Tile.Net; 6-92 to present; Type in the word "buckminster"
http://tile.net/tile/listserv/geodesic.html

>I have just Re-Set my configuration in order to download all messages, read
>and un-read. I did not get two messages that I had previously read and
>quoted from. In addition, a post that I sent did not appear even though
>another that I sent later that same night and to the same address did.
>
>Jim Huston
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 May 1998 16:01:08 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Questions
Comments: To: jhuston@PEGANET.NET
In-Reply-To:  <6jmm87$e5d@andromeda.peganet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:52 AM 5/17/98 -0400, Jim Huston wrote:
>Three questions:
>
>1) Is this a moderated list.

No.

>
>2) Are some message posts deleted without notice and without being posted?

bit.listserv.geodesic is a very imperfect newsgroup mirror.  I don't
know why.  I recently resubscribed to the e-list because tired of
missing so many posts, which I'd discover only later in the archives.

>3) How long are messages retained for retrieval and are they archived?
>

Retained at University of Buffalo since list inception (I think).
Web interface at: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html

Kirby
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Kirby Urner wrote:
>At 07:52 AM 5/17/98 -0400, Jim Huston wrote:
>>Three questions:
>>
>>1) Is this a moderated list.
>
>No.
>
>>
>>2) Are some message posts deleted without notice and without being
posted?
>
>bit.listserv.geodesic is a very imperfect newsgroup mirror.  I don't
>know why.  I recently resubscribed to the e-list because tired of
>missing so many posts, which I'd discover only later in the archives.
>
>>3) How long are messages retained for retrieval and are they archived?
>>
>
>Retained at University of Buffalo since list inception (I think).
>Web interface at: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html

>
>Kirby
>
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>
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Kirby Urner wrote:
>At 07:52 AM 5/17/98 -0400, Jim Huston wrote:
>>Three questions:
>>
>>1) Is this a moderated list.
>
>No.
>
>>
>>2) Are some message posts deleted without notice and without being
posted?
>
>bit.listserv.geodesic is a very imperfect newsgroup mirror.  I don't
>know why.  I recently resubscribed to the e-list because tired of
>missing so many posts, which I'd discover only later in the archives.
>
>>3) How long are messages retained for retrieval and are they archived?
>>
>
>Retained at University of Buffalo since list inception (I think).
>Web interface at: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html

>
>Kirby
>
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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD><BODY><FONT FACE="Geneva" SIZE=3 COLOR="#000000">unsubscribe<BR>
Kirby
Urner wrote:</FONT><FONT FACE="Geneva" SIZE=1 COLOR="#000000"><BR>
&gt;At
07:52 AM 5/17/98 -0400, Jim Huston wrote:<BR>
&gt;&gt;Three
questions:<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;1) Is this
a moderated list.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;No.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;2)
Are some message posts deleted without notice
and without being posted?<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;bit.listserv.geodesic
is a very imperfect newsgroup mirror.  I
don't<BR>
&gt;know why.  I recently resubscribed
to the e-list because tired of<BR>
&gt;missing
so many posts, which I'd discover only later
in the archives.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;3) How
long are messages retained for retrieval
and are they archived?<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;Retained
at University of Buffalo since list inception
(I think).<BR>
&gt;Web interface at: </FONT><FONT
FACE="Geneva" SIZE=1 COLOR="#0000FF"><U>http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html</U></FONT><FONT
FACE="Geneva" SIZE=1 COLOR="#000000"><BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;Kirby<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;RFC822
header<BR>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 May 1998 00:58:04 GMT
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Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         hbgrant <hbgrant@INFINET.COM>
Organization: InfiNet
Subject:      Re: Fuller still alive?

Brian,

I hate to be the one to break it to ya but Bucky is quite dead. He died
while visiting his ailing wife in an LA hospital in July 1983.

Regards,

Brian

Brian Douglas Widdows <moriarty.getridofthis@union4.su.swin.edu.au> wrote
in article <6jb4oa$v0k$1@lucy.cc.swin.edu.au>...
> Anyone know if Bucky is still alive?
>
> --
> regards,
> Brian Widdows
> -----------------------------------------
> http://union4.su.swin.edu.au/~moriarty
> moriarty@rmthis.union4.su.swin.edu.au
> widdows@rmthis.bud.swin.edu.au
> -----------------------------------------
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 May 1998 01:04:23 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         hbgrant <hbgrant@INFINET.COM>
Organization: InfiNet
Subject:      ASM partial dome, Cleveland Ohio

Anyone here familiar with the ASM partial dome in Cleveland, Ohio?

http://www.asm-intl.org/www-asm/asminfo.htm#ASM_WORLD_HEADQUARTERS

Regards,

H. B. Grant
Middletown, Ohio
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 May 1998 10:03:08 -0700
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From:         Oregon Dome <oregon@DOMES.COM>
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Subject:      Re: 250 MPH WINDS
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I'd like to add to this thread.

We've known of domes, wood framed, that have survived as high as 212 mph
winds and a tornado during the Andrew and Inikki hurricanes (in Florida
and Hawaii).  Damage was limited to windows and doors, and some of that
was due to the debris from the neighborhood square/rectangle homes that
were destroyed.  Most of these domes were probably 2x4 framed,
indicating the strength of the general design.

Joe S. Moore wrote:
>
> Jay,
>
> The reason I was so curious is that in _The Dymaxion World of Buckminster
> Fuller_ on page 61 it states (regarding the DEW Line 55' diam fiberglass
> radomes) "...they withstood static load testing for wind velocities in
> excess of 220 miles per hour."  Such a dome would be able to withstand most
> F4 tornadoes or hurricanes (winds between 207-260 mph).
>
> ****************************************
> * Joe S. Moore
> * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
> * joemoore@cruzio.com
> * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
> * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
> ****************************************
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wizard@prysm.net <wizard@prysm.net>
> To: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
> Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 09:01 PM
> Subject: Re: 250 MPH WINDS
>
> >This would be obtained by making the structure with no glass in the
> >openings and reenforcing any windows with appropriate stiffness. The walls
> >in this design are 4 feet thick and for high wind stress integrity, solid
> >ferro-cement armature design must be used for the structure. This would
> >make it very expensive but able to withstand the stated wind speeds, a f3
> >tornado.
> >
> >>Jay,
> >>
> >>In regards your Nebula Dome you say that it can "withstand 250 mile an
> hour
> >>winds...".  Could you please provide the details behind this claim?  I
> would
> >>be VERY interested in knowing how you (or whoever) arrived at this
> >>conclusion--computer simulation, wind tunnel tests, actual full-scale
> >>prototype--what? Please post your reply to the Geodesic List, if possible.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>
> >>****************************************
> >>* Joe S. Moore
> >>* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
> >>* joemoore@cruzio.com
> >>* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
> >>* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
> >>****************************************
> >
> >
> >

--
Thanks,

Nathan Burke,
Oregon Dome, Inc.

E-mail:  oregon@domes.com
Web:  http://www.domes.com
Address:  3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR  97402
Fax:  (541) 689-9275
Phone:  (800) 572-8943
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 May 1998 20:00:00 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Ernie Aiken <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Subject:      Re: ASM partial dome, Cleveland Ohio
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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Thanks for the url info. It's a wonderful dome and similar to the
Climatron dome of the Missouri Botanic Gardens (St. Louis). Photos of
both are also in the book Geodesics by Edward Popko. Wish I would have
went there when I was driving through Ohio. I did make it to the
Climatron which was an awesome experience. - Ernie
from the Dome Gallery:
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron1.JPG
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron2.JPG
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron3.JPG
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron4.JPG

hbgrant wrote:

> Anyone here familiar with the ASM partial dome in Cleveland, Ohio?
>
> http://www.asm-intl.org/www-asm/asminfo.htm#ASM_WORLD_HEADQUARTERS
>
> Regards,
>
> H. B. Grant
> Middletown, Ohio



--------------CBEAC86DF3CD69D77B8D8CA5
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<HTML>
Thanks for the url info. It's a wonderful dome and similar to the Climatron
dome of the Missouri Botanic Gardens (St. Louis). Photos of both are also
in the book <U>Geodesics</U> by Edward Popko. Wish I would have went there
when I was driving through Ohio. I did make it to the Climatron which was
an awesome experience. - Ernie
<BR>from the Dome Gallery:
<BR><A HREF="http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron1.JPG">http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron1.JPG</A>
<BR><A HREF="http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron2.JPG">http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron2.JPG</A>
<BR><A HREF="http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron3.JPG">http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron3.JPG</A>
<BR><A HREF="http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron4.JPG">http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Climatron4.JPG</A>

<P>hbgrant wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Anyone here familiar with the ASM partial dome in
Cleveland, Ohio?

<P><A HREF="http://www.asm-intl.org/www-asm/asminfo.htm#ASM_WORLD_HEADQUARTERS">http://www.asm-intl.org/www-asm/asminfo.htm#ASM_WORLD_HEADQUARTERS</A>

<P>Regards,

<P>H. B. Grant
<BR>Middletown, Ohio</BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------CBEAC86DF3CD69D77B8D8CA5--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 May 1998 21:05:49 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Famous Domes
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Does anyone know of any famous domes in Boston or Toronto area?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 12:59:41 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Please help me again
Comments: To: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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-----Original Message-----
From: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
To: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 09:12 AM
Subject: Please help me again


>     I'm looking for help to find contact info for a
>doctor in Toronto that I know practices Reichian
>Therapy. If you or somebody you know can forward me
>some leads, I'd most appreciate it.
>
Lamont,

I don't know anything about Reichian Therapy.  I suggest that you do a
search using one of the search engines.

>---"Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com> wrote:
>> Lamont,
>>
>> The Buckminster Fuller Institute sells all of
>Bucky's books.  Check out
>> their web site at http://www.critpath.org/bfi/ .
>Ask them for a copy of
>> their latest catalog and newsletter.
>> Also,check out the BiblioFind used book service at
>> http://www.bibliofind.com/ .
>> I'm sending a copy of this reply to the Buckminster
>Fuller Estate in
>> Sebastopol, California.
>>
>> ****************************************
>> * Joe S. Moore
>> * Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
>> * joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
>> * Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
>> * http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>> ****************************************
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
>> To: joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com <joemoore@bbs.cruzio.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 12:49 PM
>> Subject: Looking for knowledge
>>
>> >     Hello, I am looking for any published or
>> >unpublished literature that has been written by
>> >Buckminisiter Fuller, whether scientific documents
>> >and records, or books, or letters and diaries and
>> >journals. If you could locate the email addresses or
>> >fax numbers or phone numbers of anyone in authority
>> >over his estate, and his friends and family, I would
>> >be most gratified.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 13:04:10 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      GLOBAL, WIRELESS, CHEAP, TELCOM SERVICE
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Motorola, Teledesic Plan Satellite Network
Reuters
May 21, 1998 11:02 AM PDT

"Privately-held Teledesic LLC and Motorola Inc. said on Thursday they're
teaming up to develop the world's first satellite communications network to
provide affordable access to telecom services."

http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/reut/0521/318149.html

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 13:18:27 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      BROKEN LINK
Comments: To: feedback@looksmart.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dear Sirs,

Your link for Architects/Buckminster Fuller no longer exists.  You may
substitute mine, if you wish.

Sincerely,

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************

CC: Geodesic List
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 14:41:55 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      M J GOURLAY--DOME DESIGNER
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Dome designs for Burning Man 1998:

http://michelangelo.colorado-research.com/~gourlay/dome/

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 14:45:27 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      PORTABLE DOME MANUF
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Atlantic Geodesic Dome and Sphere Company
3350 North 57th Drive, Hollywood, Fl  33021
(954) 987-7673 (Phone)
(954) 987-1780 (Fax)
 agdsc@sympatico.ca (Email)

http://www3.sympatico.ca/agdsc/

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 14:55:43 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      GREENHOUSE DOME MANUF
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Biospaces, Incorporated
0504 Crystal Circle
Carbondale, CO 81623, USA
Ph & FAX (970) 963-0114
E-Mail: biospace@rof.net

http://www.rof.net/yp/biospace/biodomes.html

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 15:27:06 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      DOME SHELTER MANUF
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KYNER SHELTERS

The Cutaway Dome

Airplane Hangar
Automobile Display
Band Shell
Heavy Snow Load
Open Face Dome
Outdoor Restaurant Seating
Pool Shelter
"Rest Stop" Shelter
RV Shelter
Special Events

Phone 1-800-747-KYNER (5963)
kynerusa@televar.com

http://members.aol.com/kynerusa/nnpage.html

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 15:50:54 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      PANELIZED DOMES MANUF
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NewHouse R & D, Ann Arbor Michigan USA 48104

TEL/FAX: 313.994.3008 E-Mail: ebl@bizserve.com

http://www.arachneweb.com/NewHouseShelter/

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 16:29:24 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      New dome listings
In-Reply-To:  <005001bd850a$ea5443c0$dcdae3a5@kelp220.cruzio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks for all the new dome listings Joe.  As a postscript,
I'm only adding to my own web list if companies contact me
directly.  Quoting (from bottom of page):

  This list was initially based on a list provided
  by Joe Moore, the independent Bucky Fuller scholar.
  These days, I like to hear directly from officially
  authorized company representatives (e.g. owners,
  marketing) to request a listing, change of info, or
  deletion. I don't have time to scour the web,
  publications, and so on, nor do I necessarily
  list companies that people post about, but don't
  work for directly (the companies in question might
  not want a listing at my site, for whatever reason,
  or might want one with different information than
  what some third party provides).

 [from http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domeman.html]

But others may very well be keeping directories or listings
and getting these posts via GEODESIC is certainly a public
service.  Thanks for all you hard work.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 16:44:55 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      S CAL DOME MANUF
MIME-Version: 1.0
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GeoDomes Woodworks
6876 Indiana Ave
Box 4141, Division W
Riverside, CA 92514-4141
Tel: 909-787-8800
Fax: 909-787-7089

vandoren@geodomesinc.com

http://www.geodomesinc.com/

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 20:31:46 EDT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         RINEHARTJR <RINEHARTJR@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: New dome listings
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 5/21/98 17:30:15, you wrote:

<<Thanks for all the new dome listings Joe.  As a postscript,
I'm only adding to my own web list if companies contact me
directly.  Quoting (from bottom of page):...>>

If applicable, we are authorized dealers of Oregon Dome, Inc products and
services for this part of Colorado.

Thanks.  Jack L Rinehart, J & R Dome Homes of Colorado, 5695 Flintridge Dr,
Colorado Springs, CO 80918-2338, (719)593-0570, rinehartjr@aol.com.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 18:50:58 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      ANOTHER S CAL DOME MANUF
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hexadome America
P.O. Box 2351
LaMesa, CA 91943 USA

Tel: 619-440-0434
Fax: 619-465-5353

E-mail: Hexadome@jinet.com

http://www.jinet.com/hexadome/

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 May 1998 19:59:19 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: New dome listings
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Kirby,

Lately I seem to be stumbling on to more and more dome manufs.  Things seem
to be accelerating.  Wish there were some way of scientifically measuring
how many domes have been and are now being built in order to determine a
trend.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 04:30 PM
Subject: New dome listings


>Thanks for all the new dome listings Joe.  As a postscript,
>I'm only adding to my own web list if companies contact me
>directly.  Quoting (from bottom of page):
>
>  This list was initially based on a list provided
>  by Joe Moore, the independent Bucky Fuller scholar.
>  These days, I like to hear directly from officially
>  authorized company representatives (e.g. owners,
>  marketing) to request a listing, change of info, or
>  deletion. I don't have time to scour the web,
>  publications, and so on, nor do I necessarily
>  list companies that people post about, but don't
>  work for directly (the companies in question might
>  not want a listing at my site, for whatever reason,
>  or might want one with different information than
>  what some third party provides).
>
> [from http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domeman.html]
>
>But others may very well be keeping directories or listings
>and getting these posts via GEODESIC is certainly a public
>service.  Thanks for all you hard work.
>
>Kirby
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 01:37:05 -0700
Reply-To:     ba137@lafn.org
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <ba137@LAFN.ORG>
Subject:      Burning Man Domes

"Of course, I use Craftsman tools" !!


--
celebrate the 26th Anniversary of the Townhouse Slushfund uh Watergate --
http://www.tarpley.net -- deletives massively expleted, viz:  {DEFEAT EL
"He broke out in ******* & **** himself to death", from Intro. SHRUB [BUSH
   <Brian Hutchings, Living Space Programs, Santa Monica College>     JR.]}
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 09:39:50 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: By the way
Comments: To: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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See responses below.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
To: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 02:51 PM
Subject: By the way


>     To be honest with you, I have no time but to
>invest in something worthwhile. I understand you are
>involved in engineering.

I'm not an engineer; I'm a retired generalist.

>I'm looking for a trade to
>adopt. Do you need an apprentice ?

No.

>If so, I'd be
>willing to move to your area and work for you. I may
>know nothing of mathematics, or engineering but I'm
>willing to tirelessly devote decades to it under your
>mastery. I have no investments or dependents. I have
>no reason to stay, rather I have the incentive to
>find my fortune. All I need is room and board.
>
I'm forwarding your inquiry to the Geodesic List.  Maybe someone out there
may be able to help you.

>     Or perhaps you could refer my request to
>somebody you know in the fields of maths and
>sciences. I really need an opportunity. Please help.
>
I wish you all the luck in the world.

Joe
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 14:18:38 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      ROTATABLE GEOM MODELS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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CRYSTALLOGRAPHIC POLYHEDRA

Java applet by John N.Huffman (ChemRote 1.0)

http://www.nirim.go.jp/~weber/POLYHEDRA/p_12.html

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 14:29:39 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Seeing as how you value the mind of Buckminister Fuller
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****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Lamont Mohammed <z00723@rocketmail.com>
To: Joe S. Moore <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 01:21 PM
Subject: Seeing as how you value the mind of Buckminister Fuller


>     On the basis of what you and your fellows know.
>Do you believe that Buckminister Fuller, if asked
>polietly by me, would give me a chance to learn of
>mathematics and science while working for him or one
>of his associates as a pupil apprentice ? I'm not a
>rapist or a child molester, I think I deserve a
>chance, what do the rest of you think ?
>
>     If someone could only teach me, I'd learn to
>teach others.
>
>     Sorry for the harrassment, I know you are doing
>your best. I guess I'm just feeling kind of pointless
>right now.
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 14:52:50 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      TRIANGULAR PATTERNS PROGRAM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Java program by Jacobo Bulaevsky

http://www.best.com/~ejad/java/patterns/patterns_j.shtml

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 17:02:23 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Composer Webern was Double Agent for Nazis
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Composer Webern was Double Agent for Nazis

By Heinrich Kincaid

c The Associated Press

BERLIN, GERMANY (AP) - Recent admissions by an ex-Nazi official living in
Argentina have confirmed what some musicologists have suspected for years:
that early twentieth century German composer Anton Webern and his
colleagues devised the so-called "serial" technique of music to encrypt
messages to Nazi spies living in the United States and Britain.

In what can surely be considered the most brazen instance of Art Imitating
Espionage to date, avant garde composers of the Hitler years working in
conjunction with designers of the Nazi Enigma code were bamboozling
unsuspecting audiences with their atonal thunderings while at the same
time passing critical scientific data back and forth between nations.

"This calls into question the entire Second Viennese School of music,"
announced minimalist composer John Adams from his home in the Adirondack
Mountains.  "Ever since I first encountered compositions by Arnold
Schonberg I wondered what the hell anyone ever heard in it.  Now I know."

Gunned down by an American soldier in occupied Berlin, 62 year old Anton
Webern's death was until now considered a tragic loss to the musical
world.  At the time the U.S. Army reported that the killing was "a
mistake", and that in stepping onto the street at night to smoke a
cigarette Webern was violating a strict curfew rule.

It is now known that Webern was using music to shuttle Werner Heisenberg's
discoveries in atomic energy to German spy Klaus Fuchs working on the
Manhattan atom bomb project in New Mexico.  Due to the secret nature of
the project, which was still underway after the invasion of Berlin, Army
officials at the time were unable to describe the true reason for Webern's
murder.

Hans Scherbius, a Nazi party official who worked with Minister of
Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, admitted at age eighty-seven that the Nazis
secretly were behind the twelve-tone technique of composition, which was
officially reviled to give it the outlaw status it needed to remain
outside of the larger public purview.

These pieces were nothing more than cipher for encoding messages," he
chuckled during an interview on his balcony in Buenos Aires.  "It was only
because it was 'naughty' and difficult that elite audiences accepted it,
even championed it."

Physicist Edward Teller, who kept a 9-foot Steinway piano in his apartment
at the Los Alamos laboratory, was the unwitting deliverer of Heisenburg's
data to Fuchs, who eagerly attended parties thrown by Teller, an
enthusiastic booster of Webern's music.

Arnold Schonberg, the older musician who first devised the serial
technique at the request of the Weimar government of Germany, composed in
America to deliver bomb data stolen by Fuchs back to the Nazis, who worked
feverishly to design their own atomic weapons.

As an example, Scherbius showed Associated Press reporters the score of
Webern's Opus 30 "Variations for Orchestra" overlayed with a cardboard
template.  The notes formed a mathematical grid that deciphered into
German a comparison between the neutron release cross-sections of uranium
isotopes 235 and 238.

Schonberg responded with a collection of songs for soprano and woodwinds
that encrypted the chemical makeup of the polonium-beryllium initiator at
the core of the Trinity explosion.

And in Japan, Toru Takemitsu took time out from his own neo-romanticism to
transmit data via music of his nation's progress with the atom.

The most curious thing about it," says composer Philip Glass in New York
City, "is that musicians continued to write twelve-tone music after the
war, even though they had no idea why it was really invented.  Indeed,
there are guys who are churning out serialism to this day."

Unlike the diatonic music, which is based on scales that have been agreed
upon by listeners throughout the world for all of history, twelve-tone
music treats each note of the chromatic scale with equal importance, and
contains a built- in mathematical refusal to form chords that are pleasing
by traditional standards.  Known also as serialism, the style has never
been accepted outside of an elite cadre of musicians, who believe it is
the only fresh and valid direction for post-Wagnerian classical music to
go.

Even if this is really true," states conductor Pierre Boulez, a composer
who continues to utilyze serial techniques, "the music has been vindicated
by music critics for decades now.  I see no reason to suddenly invalidate
an art form just because of some funny business at its inception."

AP-NY-05-06-98 1716EDT
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 17:29:37 -0700
Reply-To:     ba137@lafn.org
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <ba137@LAFN.ORG>
Subject:      Re: By the way

in that case, I guess, I'll just kill myself!

>>I'm looking for a trade to
>>adopt. Do you need an apprentice ?
>
>No.


--
celebrate the 26th Anniversary of the Townhouse Slushfund uh Watergate --
http://www.tarpley.net -- deletives massively expleted, viz:  {DEFEAT EL
"He broke out in ******* & **** himself to death", from Intro. SHRUB [BUSH
   <Brian Hutchings, Living Space Programs, Santa Monica College>     JR.]}
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 17:49:59 -0700
Reply-To:     ba137@lafn.org
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <ba137@LAFN.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Composer Webern was Double Agent for Nazis

>c The Associated Press

good one!...  you had me going for about five seconds!
        seriously, i thought that it was essentially *cultural* war,
like when the Nazis had a big symposium in London,
to arbitrarily "brighten" music, by shifting from the classical
C=256cycles/second to A=440.  weren't they more intereseted
in nuclear *power*, and didn't Heisenberg do a bit
to stump the under-funded effort (the Nazis were utopian and
anti-science, except for immediate war-needs) ??

>BERLIN, GERMANY (AP) - Recent admissions by an ex-Nazi official living in
>Argentina have confirmed what some musicologists have suspected for years:
>that early twentieth century German composer Anton Webern and his
>colleagues devised the so-called "serial" technique of music to encrypt
>messages to Nazi spies living in the United States and Britain.

if it's true, it's going to cause quite a caldron at Schoenberg Hall!


--
celebrate the 26th Anniversary of the Townhouse Slushfund uh Watergate --
http://www.tarpley.net -- deletives massively expleted, viz:  {DEFEAT EL
"He broke out in ******* & **** himself to death", from Intro. SHRUB [BUSH
   <Brian Hutchings, Living Space Programs, Santa Monica College>     JR.]}
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 19:22:11 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      MONTREAL CAM--EXPO '67
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Live webcam of the Biosphere dome:

http://www.montrealcam.com/fr-biosphere-ag.html

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 20:56:06 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      DYMAX CAR PICS
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7 Dymax Vehicle pics + Patent w/pics at Swedish site:

"Dymaxion" på Chicago World Fair, 1934
"4-D" Auto-airplane (1928)
"4-D" Transport (1932)
Den första "Dymaxion"-biler, fotograferad utanför fabriken 12:e juli 1933
"Dymaxion Tudor Sportster (1939)
"D-45" (1943)
Patent: http://www.stud.unit.no/studorg/a/Ades94sid/Dymaxion.html

http://www.stud.unit.no/studorg/a/Ades94sid/15.html

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 21:32:10 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      JAPANESE DOME MANUF
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Fuller Domes, Inc
customer@erecta.co.jp

http://www.erecta.co.jp/dome/dome.html

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 May 1998 21:46:38 -0700
Reply-To:     ba137@lafn.org
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <ba137@LAFN.ORG>
Subject:      Re: JAPANESE DOME MANUF

am I getting through, here, just not reflected back to me, or
am I just being censored for fluff-content?

Joe?


--
celebrate the 26th Anniversary of the Townhouse Slushfund uh Watergate --
http://www.tarpley.net -- deletives massively expleted, viz:  {DEFEAT EL
"He broke out in ******* & **** himself to death", from Intro. SHRUB [BUSH
   <Brian Hutchings, Living Space Programs, Santa Monica College>     JR.]}
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 May 1998 17:16:45 -0700
Reply-To:     ba137@lafn.org
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <ba137@LAFN.ORG>
Subject:      celebrate Memorial day
Comments: cc: totn@npr.org, democracy@igc.apc.org, livingroom@igc.apc.org,
          pnn@pacifica.org, kpcc@paccd.cc.ca.us

 -- aside from being *on* vacation, but have fun.
        I'd wonder about the subtext to that stark plea
from a Mohammed, apparently in Japaan.  I'd guess,
he may be an alien from Indonesia or Malaysia,
stranded in a country in dire economical straits, itself, though
with further to fall.  (as for his dysclaimer, I guess,
it's better than, "I am not a *practicing* rapist/childmolester" .-)
        I have read 3 articles in the Sunday LATimes, although
I didn't find the front section, on Indoneisa, *none* of which
even *mentions* the IMF, which'd chartered a fast plane out
Jakarta, of late.  it is the same, on KPFK/PNN (left/necromarxist),
KCRW/NPR (necroliberal/blah) and Righttalkradio (necro-
conservative/"trade is freedom"):
they merely uphold the "democracy schmucks", those with no platform
but Jacobin "democracy", such as Amien Reis (sp.?), the head
of Mohammedaya, who demands capitulation to all of the demands
of the IMF -- hardly a "nationalist" stance, but there we go.
        the point is that nationalism is not a chauvinist thing,
except when organized by thugs like Le Pen, in France.  it is not
in support of so-called free-markets, allowing the current "Crisis
in Asia" to float a "booming" US and European markets,
with a billowing rade-defecit & a slide to marketing that fire-sale stuff
in a "new service info age" economy -- looting.  nationalism upholds
the military of countries, against the mercenaries of a feudal,
free-trade, empire-in-all-but-name, as with Britain's marcherlords
in Africa, Museveni and Nyere, or in Iberoamerica.
        and, don't forget the machine-tool principle,
which is totally anathema to the likes of a Thatcher, a Bush,
a Mitterand, a Gingrich, a Soros et al ad vomitorium; as with
Monge et Carnot, this is essential to the "angels of victory".
        that's why we celebrate Memorial day, peacefully,
with our various veterans, and the best gift
that we can give them, is to uphold the sovereignities
that they've fought against th tyrranies for --
by removing the hatefully lost mandate of the IMF, and
of kindred UN orgs and the UN, itself, now woefully retrocolonialist.
(of course, given adequate insurance, on *Independence* day,
we like to set the rockets to strafe the audience
-- there's a lot of "virtual" competetition "up" there, these days .-)


--
celebrate the 26th Anniversary of the Townhouse Slushfund uh Watergate --
http://www.tarpley.net -- deletives massively expleted, viz:  {DEFEAT EL
"He broke out in ******* & **** himself to death", from Intro. SHRUB [BUSH
   <Brian Hutchings, Living Space Programs, Santa Monica College>     JR.]}
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 May 1998 23:55:48 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Dome Roofs
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Interesting link:
Design Freedom
Hi-Tuff can be attached to virtually any type of building design, from those
with relatively flat or low sloped roofs, to those with higher slopes,
including domes, sawtooths, and barrel roofs.
http://www.jpselastomerics.com/roofing/index2.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 12:17:15 -0500
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From:         Rusty Leonard <rusty44@TELEPATH.COM>
Subject:      Auction: 9 chains to the moon
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I have a copy of Nine Chains to The Moon, paperback, Anchor Books, 1971.  It
is in good condition, not torn or creased, no underlines or highlighters.

If interested please email.
+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+
 Rusty Leonard             + "Sorrows come to stretch
 Edmond, Oklahoma      + out spaces in the heart
 rusty44@telepath.com   + for joy."  Edwin Markham
+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+:+
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 21:57:03 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Planning a Bigger Dome, Part II
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The second part of the 50' dome design is now on my web site.

        http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/supporting2

Deformation of octet trusses, Java code to do calculations, and all the
chord lengths for the 50' dome. Have at it...

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 May 1998 03:50:45 GMT
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From:         Avalon InterConnect User <lbulgin@AVALON.NF.CA>
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Subject:      Re: Domes lighter once built than their component parts?
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The key aspect of this 'hollowed city' scenario
is ' volume to surface area' ratio, where the function
of volume is the mass of the air which can be expelled
from the hollowed interior ...(for example, due to a
difference in density because of a difference in temperature
between the inside and outside), and where the function
of surface area is the mass of the occupied shell-city.
...That city will be ' weightless'  when the mass of the
expelled air divided by the mass of that city is equal to 'one'.
...The ' weightlessness' (regardless of what that city is
composed of per unit area of shell) is dependant only on the
'radius' for any design density difference between inside and
outside.
...Each time the diameter of an object is doubled, the volume
increases eight times whereas the surface area only
increases four times.

--
bastuckless@avint.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 May 1998 02:31:19 -0700
Reply-To:     ba137@lafn.org
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <ba137@LAFN.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Auction: 9 chains to the moon

I kick myself,
for not snapping a copy up, when
the Inst,was selling'em for 9$, several years ago.
in the continuum between sex & money, let's stay "to thte right";
thank you!

>I have a copy of Nine Chains to The Moon, paperback, Anchor Books, 1971.  It
>is in good condition, not torn or creased, no underlines or highlighters.


--
celebrate the 26th Anniversary of the Townhouse Slushfund uh Watergate --
http://www.tarpley.net -- deletives massively expleted, viz:  {DEFEAT EL
"He broke out in ******* & **** himself to death", from Intro. SHRUB [BUSH
   <Brian Hutchings, Living Space Programs, Santa Monica College>     JR.]}
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 May 1998 02:38:57 -0700
Reply-To:     ba137@lafn.org
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <ba137@LAFN.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Auction: 9 chains to the moon

sorry, i forgot I was on the list, but I'd still like to know
what you want for it.  I don't care its condition, if
it is not redacted!

>>I have a copy of Nine Chains to The Moon, paperback, Anchor Books, 1971.  It
>>is in good condition, not torn or creased, no underlines or highlighters.


--
celebrate the 26th Anniversary of the Townhouse Slushfund uh Watergate --
http://www.tarpley.net -- deletives massively expleted, viz:  {DEFEAT EL
"He broke out in ******* & **** himself to death", from Intro. SHRUB [BUSH
   <Brian Hutchings, Living Space Programs, Santa Monica College>     JR.]}
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 May 1998 00:54:12 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Jim Tambling <jim.tambling@CABLEINET.CO.UK>
Organization: "Cable Internet (post doesn't reflect views of Cable Internet)"
Subject:      Construction

Can someone help me??
I need plans, sketches, layouts, anything to help me build a
geodesic dome.

Thanx, JimTambling
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 May 1998 11:39:06 -0600
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From:         Dennis Johnson <djohnson@NATURALSPACESDOMES.COM>
Organization: Natural Spaces Domes
Subject:      Re: Construction
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jim Tambling wrote:
>
> Can someone help me??
> I need plans, sketches, layouts, anything to help me build a
> geodesic dome.
>
> Thanx, JimTambling

Hello Jim:

We have a free information packet - just need your
snail mail address.
Aloma
Natural Spaces Domes
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 May 1998 18:33:56 -0400
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From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Construction
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Jim,
You wrote:
<<Can someone help me??
I need plans, sketches, layouts, anything to help me build a
geodesic dome.>>

    I have fabrication plans for a 32' panel dome on my WEB site.  You wi=
ll
also find photos of the fabrication and erection.  My cost for the earth
contact 32' dome workshop, shown on the WEB site, was approximately $6000=
=2E =

That includes the electrical hookup, run from the adjacent concrete dome,=

"Peel & Seal" roofing, footing drain, & windows, but it only includes cos=
t
for a gravel floor.  The dome is currently without a second floor.  I got=
 a
phone estimate of $.50/square foot for wet blown cellulose insulation.  I=

have the feeling they gave me one of their large square footage bids and
that they will make adjustments when they find out they are only looking =
at
1600 square feet.
URL:  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy
     Simple layout plans for the adjacent solar earthcontact lightweight
concrete dome can also be found at my site. =

Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 May 1998 19:21:45 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      FW: Planning a Bigger Dome, Part II
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Didn't see this go up in the newsgroup yet...

--

The second part of the 50' dome design is now on my web site.

        http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/supporting2

Deformation of octet trusses, Java code to do calculations, and all the
chord lengths for the 50' dome. Have at it...

--

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 May 1998 20:03:12 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: address of dome photo
Comments: To: Terry Manville <advtg@ix.netcom.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01BD89AA.7A0D9CC0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Terry,

Thanks for the link.  I'll add it to my web pages.  My new, improved, =
expanded & revised web site should be finished one of these days, I =
hope.  (I keep adding more stuff!)

Joe

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Terry Manville <advtg@ix.netcom.com>
    To: JoeMoore@mail.cruzio.com <JoeMoore@mail.cruzio.com>
    Date: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 12:15 PM
    Subject: address of dome photo
   =20
   =20
    Joe...  me, again.  Here's the address of the page with the photo of =
the dome:
    www.asm-intl.org/images/asm/domeclds.gif

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 =
HTML//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Terry,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks for the link.&nbsp; I'll add it =
to my web=20
pages.&nbsp; My new, improved, expanded &amp; revised web site should be =

finished one of these days, I hope.&nbsp; (I keep adding more=20
stuff!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Joe</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><BR>****************************************<BR>* Joe S. =
Moore<BR>*=20
Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar<BR>* <A=20
href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com">joemoore@cruzio.com</A><BR>* =
Buckminster=20
Fuller Virtual Institute<BR>* <A=20
href=3D"http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/">http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore=
/</A><BR>****************************************</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Terry Manville &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:advtg@ix.netcom.com">advtg@ix.netcom.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>To:=
=20
    </B><A =
href=3D"mailto:JoeMoore@mail.cruzio.com">JoeMoore@mail.cruzio.com</A>=20
    &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:JoeMoore@mail.cruzio.com">JoeMoore@mail.cruzio.com</A>&gt;=
<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Wednesday, May 27, 1998 12:15 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>address of =
dome=20
    photo<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Joe...&nbsp; me, again.&nbsp; Here's the address =
of the=20
    page with the photo of the dome:</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.asm-intl.org/images/asm/domeclds.gif">www.asm-intl.org=
/images/asm/domeclds.gif</A></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 May 1998 23:31:18 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         WLauritzen <wlauritzen@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      A posting with an attached file?

If I send an e-mail via AOL I can
attach a file. But what e-mail address do I use
for bit.listserv.geodesic?  Anyone know?

Bill Lauritzen
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 May 1998 23:22:55 EDT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         WLauritzen@AOL.COM
Subject:      test
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

this is a test to see if I can post a message.

Bill Lauritzen
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 May 1998 21:39:44 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Syn-l: tetrakaidecahedron placement
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dharmraj,

That's the 'Limited Edition Catalog' (1-83, published by Philadelphia BFI)
which is still available from Santa Barbara BFI (even if the items in it may
no longer be available).  I have a copy.  SB-BFI has one copy of the
Jitterbug Sculpture. Thanks.

Joe

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: dharmraj <dharmraj@highway1.com.au>
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com <synergetics-l@teleport.com>
Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 03:52 PM
Subject: Re: Syn-l: tetrakaidecahedron placement


>Joe S. Moore wrote:
>
>> Dharmraj, See below
>>
>> >I have a structure much as you describe above. I copied it from a
>> book
>> >of art projects Bucky did.He had some beautiful hubs and connectors
>> made
>> >of for his project. Wish we could find the company that made those
>> >parts. The internal struts of the VE are in it for the 20 volume VE.
>> The
>> >2.5 VE is not included but it would have the same internal struts.
>> >
>> (snip)
>> >
>> >dharmraj
>> >
>> Can you supply us with the details of the book that you refer to
>> above?
>>
>> Name:
>> Author: Bucky?
>> Publisher:
>> City:
>> Date:
>>
>> etc
>
>   Joe:
>
>It is not a full book. More like a pamphlet or little magazine I got
>from the Fuller Institute. I think the Fuller Institute may have
>published it but it was when they were in Philadelphia as that is the
>address and title page when you first open this beautiful little
>catalog. I got it when they were in Venice.
>
>Reading from inside:
>      "This catalog offers museum quality limited editions of
>Buckminster Fuller's concepts elegantly translated into the physical. It
>is made available by the Buckminster Fuller Institue, a non-profit
>corporation formed to support and further Dr. Fuller's work for the
>benefit of all humanity."
>
>So it is pretty short but boy are there some good pictures in it. And if
>those projects could be mass produced. Like I say in particular there
>are real hubs for an octet truss he had made up somewhere from
>thermoplastic. Also a complex of jitterbugs 32 inches in diameter on a
>72 inch highstand made of polished aluminium, etched copper and
>stainless steel. 25 of those were made in 1976 with his signature etched
>in metal. Who has that stuff now?
>
>dharmraj
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 00:42:19 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Ernie Aiken <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Construction
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Jim Tambling wrote:

> Can someone help me??
> I need plans, sketches, layouts, anything to help me build a
> geodesic dome.
>
> Thanx, JimTambling

  I was  wondering how big you need it, what you will use it for and how
much money you have to work with.
  The smallest and cheapest would be paper models.
For instance this example although it would not  be an easy one:
http://www.users.csbsju.edu/~mwenning/photosset3/magnus16.jpg
A simpler one is on  my web page which presents the design of the
Octa-Dome:
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/octa_dome_model1.htm
--Ernie
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 02:23:11 -0700
Reply-To:     ba137@lafn.org
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <ba137@LAFN.ORG>
Subject:      Citizens Protection Act (HR-3368)
Comments: To: president@whitehouse.gov, first.lady@whitehouse.gov
Comments: cc: hayden97@lafn.org, wtp@wtp.org, Senator.Watson@sen.ca.gov,
          calbc@assembly.ca.gov, livingroom@igc.apc.org, warren.olney@kcrw.org

Please, support this bill!

 Honorable Representative Waxman;
      I am writing to express my support
 for the Citizens Protection Act of'98, HR-3396, authored
 by Reps.McDade and Murtha.  It may be simplest to refer
 to Rep.Joseph McDade's own "case", as a victim of the FBI's
 notorious *Operation Freuhmenschen* (German, primitive man),
 which was aimed at minority legislators at many levels,
 similar to *Abscam* etc.
      However, this bipartisan Bill, with over 130 sponsors,
 is concerned with the whole of the Dept.of Justice, and
 could be said to be made in "defense of common sense"
 in the prevention of such extremes of injustice,
 as are inculcated by elements
 of the "permanent bureaucracy", therein.  For example:

    Sec.201. Punishable conduct
    (a) Violations--The Attorney General shall establish,
 by plain rule, that it shall be punishable conduct
 for any DoJ employee to--
    (1) in the absence of probable cause seek the indictment
 of any person;
    (2) fail promptly to release information
 that would exonerate a person under indictment;

 and so on.
      As I believe that you are involved with the new, IRS-
 oversight legislation, this must certainly be complimentary
 to that.  Furthermore, with the disastrous influence
 of the "trade is freedom" ideologs and
 their monopolistic merger-mania, as
 with Rep.Gingrich's anti-Glass-Steagall bill,
 passed by one vote, no-one who is contituency-
 based is safe from these racial & political witch-hunts,
 although some legislators may seek to use them
 to their immediate advantage,
 against a better candidate -- to cite the example
 of Teddy Roosevelt's notorious *establishment* of the FBI
 [*] -- or, simply one who is ideologically opposed.
      I am trying to get my local City Councillors
 to endorse this, but any such endorsement is, of course,
 distinguished from particular cases that I might highlight.
 In that regard, I am going to bring
 some printed documentation to your office.

 --Sincerely, Brian Hutchings
   (r001806@pen.ci.santa-monica.ca.us)

 * I'll bring the URL for the article,
 "The True Story of the FBI".


--
celebrate the 26th Anniversary of the Townhouse Slushfund uh Watergate --
http://www.tarpley.net -- deletives massively expleted, viz:  {DEFEAT EL
"He broke out in ******* & **** himself to death", from Intro. SHRUB [BUSH
   <Brian Hutchings, Living Space Programs, Santa Monica College>     JR.]}
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 02:40:10 -0700
Reply-To:     ba137@lafn.org
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <ba137@LAFN.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Just say, Doh!

note the date of the report of the report.

>Briefly
>...
>
>THE RAND CORP. has released a study forecasting a Turkish-Greek war
>and an Indo-Pakistani war in the first decade
>of the 21st century.  The basis for the former is said
>to be "revival of regional competition in the Balkans";
>the latter scenario has to do with Kashmir,
>with both India and Pakistan using nuclear weapons.
>
>--EIRNS (May 8)

this is spinal tap!


--
celebrate the 26th Anniversary of the Townhouse Slushfund uh Watergate --
http://www.tarpley.net -- deletives massively expleted, viz:  {DEFEAT EL
"He broke out in ******* & **** himself to death", from Intro. SHRUB [BUSH
   <Brian Hutchings, Living Space Programs, Santa Monica College>     JR.]}
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 10:10:19 EDT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         WLauritzen@AOL.COM
Subject:      test II
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_896451019_boundary"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

test II

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--part0_896451019_boundary--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 May 1998 10:13:32 +1100
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Rob Lusher <domeco@WR.COM.AU>
Subject:      New Web Pages
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

G'day from Down Under.

I've recently revamped my www site at http://www.wr.com.au/domeco and added
pics of new products and services available to Australasian dome builders.
In particular, 2v and 3v kit-set frames for smaller sized domes and the DIY
manual (written with metric measurements) explaining in detail how to build
anything from a 3 metre shade dome to a 12.3 residential dome.


With kind regards

Rob Lusher
The Dome Company <domeco@wr.com.au>
47 Edward St.
Sylvania Heights
Sydney, NSW 2224
Australia               Phone/Fax: (02) 95226283
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 20:34:55 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Brant <trimtab@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Dymaxion Car on ABC's World News Tonight
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Dear friends:

During the Friday, 29 May 98 edition of ABC News' World News Tonight,
there was a story on America's love affair with the automobile.
Unfortunately, the Dymaxion Car appeared, in a totally inaccurate light.

During a portion of the report in which Detroit's various "dream cars"
were featured, an automobile expert made mention that certain dream cars
were so crazy (not his actual words) that they never should have been
built.  Sure enough, the first film clip shown while this man was talking
about cars that should have never been built was the Dymaxion Car!  From
the footage that many of you are probably familiar with, it was shown
driving down the street and "turning on a dime."  No additional footage
(such as how many people it could hold) was shown.  (Makes me wonder if
ABC told the BFI how they were going to use the clip, which I presume
they had to get permission from BFI to use.)

I consider this a serious enough mistake that I have signed onto the ABC
News website
 (http://www.abcnews.com) and sent the following email to them.  (You
have to click on the appropriate "send email" place on the World News
Tonight homepage to do so.)

I urge you all to contact ABC News as well.  Hopefully, they will issue a
correction.  The Dymaxion Car was no "dream."  It was real!

Steve

----------------------------------------
To ABC News "World News Tonight"

RE: your 5/29 report on "dream cars" from the American automobile industry

During your report, the man you were interviewing (can't recall his name)
commented that some dream cars "were never meant to be built, because
they were so irrational in their design" (or words to that effect).
During the time when he was making this point, you showed several film
clips of cars that were obviously meant to illustrate his point.  The
first film clip was of a cigar-shaped vehicle with three wheels, that was
able to turn, literally, on a dime (because its rear wheel steering made
it that maneuverable).
This automobile is the Dymaxion Car, designed by the inventor R.
Buckminster Fuller.  I personally know that this car WAS meant to be
produced.  It was NOT a "dream car."  It was a car that demonstrated
Buckminster Fuller's ability to design a version of a consumer product
that did "more with less."  The only reason this car (which could seat
about 10 people, get great gas mileage, and go about 100 mph) was not put
into mass production, was that it was involved in a mysterious accident
and never recovered from the resulting negative publicity.
Further information can be obtained by contacting the Buckminster Fuller
Institute (bfi@aol.com).
Please issure a correction during next Monday's World News Tonight
program. Dr. Fuller's invention should not be publicly associated with
"dream cars" that Detroit never intended to produce.  The Dymaxion Car
was very real and almost revolutionized the American automobile industry
in the late 1930's.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Steven G. Brant, President
Trimtab Management Systems
"Charting new routes to the 21st Century"

81 Ocean Parkway, Suite 3H, Brooklyn, NY 11218-1754 USA
(718) 972-0949 (voice)       (718) 972-3465 (fax)
sbrant@trimtab.com           http://www.trimtab.com
--------------------------------------------------
"It no longer has to be you or me."
                           - R. Buckminster Fuller
--------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 23:35:31 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dymaxion Car on ABC's World News Tonight
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Steve, could you give us the actual email address to send our complaints to?

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Brant <trimtab@SPRYNET.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 11:37 PM
Subject: Dymaxion Car on ABC's World News Tonight


>Dear friends:
>
>During the Friday, 29 May 98 edition of ABC News' World News Tonight,
>there was a story on America's love affair with the automobile.
>Unfortunately, the Dymaxion Car appeared, in a totally inaccurate light.
>
>During a portion of the report in which Detroit's various "dream cars"
>were featured, an automobile expert made mention that certain dream cars
>were so crazy (not his actual words) that they never should have been
>built.  Sure enough, the first film clip shown while this man was talking
>about cars that should have never been built was the Dymaxion Car!  From
>the footage that many of you are probably familiar with, it was shown
>driving down the street and "turning on a dime."  No additional footage
>(such as how many people it could hold) was shown.  (Makes me wonder if
>ABC told the BFI how they were going to use the clip, which I presume
>they had to get permission from BFI to use.)
>
>I consider this a serious enough mistake that I have signed onto the ABC
>News website
> (http://www.abcnews.com) and sent the following email to them.  (You
>have to click on the appropriate "send email" place on the World News
>Tonight homepage to do so.)
>
>I urge you all to contact ABC News as well.  Hopefully, they will issue a
>correction.  The Dymaxion Car was no "dream."  It was real!
>
>Steve
>
>----------------------------------------
>To ABC News "World News Tonight"
>
>RE: your 5/29 report on "dream cars" from the American automobile industry
>
>During your report, the man you were interviewing (can't recall his name)
>commented that some dream cars "were never meant to be built, because
>they were so irrational in their design" (or words to that effect).
>During the time when he was making this point, you showed several film
>clips of cars that were obviously meant to illustrate his point.  The
>first film clip was of a cigar-shaped vehicle with three wheels, that was
>able to turn, literally, on a dime (because its rear wheel steering made
>it that maneuverable).
>This automobile is the Dymaxion Car, designed by the inventor R.
>Buckminster Fuller.  I personally know that this car WAS meant to be
>produced.  It was NOT a "dream car."  It was a car that demonstrated
>Buckminster Fuller's ability to design a version of a consumer product
>that did "more with less."  The only reason this car (which could seat
>about 10 people, get great gas mileage, and go about 100 mph) was not put
>into mass production, was that it was involved in a mysterious accident
>and never recovered from the resulting negative publicity.
>Further information can be obtained by contacting the Buckminster Fuller
>Institute (bfi@aol.com).
>Please issure a correction during next Monday's World News Tonight
>program. Dr. Fuller's invention should not be publicly associated with
>"dream cars" that Detroit never intended to produce.  The Dymaxion Car
>was very real and almost revolutionized the American automobile industry
>in the late 1930's.
>Thank you for your attention to this matter.
>
>Steven G. Brant, President
>Trimtab Management Systems
>"Charting new routes to the 21st Century"
>
>81 Ocean Parkway, Suite 3H, Brooklyn, NY 11218-1754 USA
>(718) 972-0949 (voice)       (718) 972-3465 (fax)
>sbrant@trimtab.com           http://www.trimtab.com
>--------------------------------------------------
>"It no longer has to be you or me."
>                           - R. Buckminster Fuller
>--------------------------------------------------
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 21:22:32 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dymaxion Car on ABC's World News Tonight
In-Reply-To:  <199805300334.UAA05654@m4.sprynet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Steve --

I disagree.  The car was impractical though interesting as a
prototype.  This was an interesting avenue for exploration and
Fuller's efforts should in no way be disparaged, on that point
I concur.  But the idea that this car was just a hair's breadth
away from going into mass production, and was stopped owing
solely to some "mysterious accident" is not an accurate corrective
comment.

See Baldwin's "Bucky Works" for a more honest assessment.  He's
not stupid about cars and is currently involved with the HyperCar
project (4 wheels).

Note that "3 wheels" in itself is not all that unusual -- some
European pickups had 3 wheels -- two in the back, one for steering
in front.  But the Dymaxion Car design was more an adaptation of
the airplane fuselage for road use (with an eye towards eventually
adding back airlift capability), was tricky to steer, had poor
rear visibility.  Even if the 3rd wheel is in the rear, it's still
probably better to use the front 2 for steering.

I think ABC should be congratulated for daring to allude to Bucky
at all.  The guy was clearly deeply subversive then, as now, and
major networks have a hard time touching any aspect of his thinking
with a 30 foot pole.  Your pissy retort sounds knee-jerk and
"disciplish" to my ears -- the kind of predictable and biased
response that I would hope is not representative.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 22:41:31 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Brant <trimtab@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dymaxion Car on ABC's World News Tonight - Replies
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Kevin:

http://www.abcnews.com is not set up so that I can easily capture that
URL.  But it's only a few clicks, at the most, from the home page for
abcnews.  Let me know if you need more help.

John Belt:

The "reporter" was Peter Jennings, himself.  The "experts" name escaped
me.  As for videotaping. . no I did not.  However, ABC appears to post
the transcripts of their World News Tonight stories on a one-day delay.
So, the transcript may be available on Saturday.

Kirby:

Thanks for pointing to the "Bucky Works" reference. Perhaps ABC will find
out about that reference, as they receive additional emails on this
subject.

Best wishes to you all,

Steve

Steven G. Brant, President
Trimtab Management Systems
"Charting new routes to the 21st Century"

81 Ocean Parkway, Suite 3H, Brooklyn, NY 11218-1754 USA
(718) 972-0949 (voice)       (718) 972-3465 (fax)
sbrant@trimtab.com           http://www.trimtab.com
--------------------------------------------------
"It no longer has to be you or me."
                           - R. Buckminster Fuller
--------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 22:54:39 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Brant <trimtab@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      further Dymaxion Car/ABC News info
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

FYI, I have just learned that the footage ABC used is in the public
domain (old newsreel footage); therefore ABC did not have to clear its
use with the BFI.  Also, Jay Baldwin now has a copy of my letter.
Perhaps he will write to ABC.

Steve
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 23:03:54 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: further Dymaxion Car/ABC News info
In-Reply-To:  <199805300554.WAA15956@m4.sprynet.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 10:54 PM 5/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>FYI, I have just learned that the footage ABC used is in the public
>domain (old newsreel footage); therefore ABC did not have to clear its
>use with the BFI.  Also, Jay Baldwin now has a copy of my letter.
>Perhaps he will write to ABC.
>
>Steve
>

I'll send him a copy of mine to you and encourage him to not.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 23:12:56 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      new synergetics-linked website
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a philosophers' network
http://members.xoom.com/Urner/

Kirby

PS: also, for my spin on the haps of the day, three
new editorial cartoons:

http://members.xoom.com/Urner/cartoons/cartoon1.gif
http://members.xoom.com/Urner/cartoons/cartoon2.gif
http://members.xoom.com/Urner/cartoons/cartoon3.gif
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 May 1998 23:41:58 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: further Dymaxion Car/ABC News info
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19980529230354.03003a30@mail.teleport.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>From 'BuckyWorks' by Jay Baldwin (John Wiley and Sons, 1996)
pp 90-91:

========

Burgess showed considerable courage driving the naked chassis
fast for the first time. Little was known about vehicle
dynamics in general--certainly not enough to predict the
handling characteristics of a three-wheeler with rear-engine,
rear-wheel steering and front-wheel drive. The machine showed
promise, but Burgess had some scary moments with uncontrollable
steering oscillation similar to the "death wobble" rightly
feared by motorcyclists and the drivers of trailer-towing
autos. The remedy was time-consuming and expensive: Start over
with a new chassis that kept all three wheels always
perpendicular to the road.

Bucky did not view the need for a new chassis as a setback.
There was no body of knowledge for reference, no experts to
ask. Mistakes and dead-ends are common in research-and-
development work, especially when an entire concept is new and
not just a refinement of a portion of an established design.
Learning always involves trial and error. Also, Bucky knew that
it usually takes three tries to develop a convincing prototype.
The first try shows whether the idea has promise; the bare
chassis had confirmed that the idea was basically good. The
next try would be the first complete car (Fig. 4-7).

The second prototype of a design is a version of the first,
with the major flaws corrected. Work started on a wood-framed,
aluminum-clad body utilizing the latest yacht and aircraft
technology. There was a deadline: The first complete car had to
be ready for the 1933 Chicago World's Fair in three months. The
crew immediately grew to twenty-eight, including two sheet
metal men from Rolls-Royce. They had a lot to do; except for
the stock Ford V8 power train (chosen for its relative
lightness and a 70% discount from Henry himself), nearly every
part had to be custom-designed, and precisely fabricated by
hand Bucky wanted the car to be well finished. He knew that
good workmanship would impress onlookers and the media, adding
to a convincing demonstration of his ideas.

There was only one major problem left to solve. The car was
extraordinarily stable in still air, but even Bucky described
driving the Dymaxion in gusty conditions as an endless,
nerve-wracking crosswind landing in a small airplane. The
aircraft cable-and-pulley steering was thought to be at fault.
An airplane's course needn't be correct to the fraction of an
inch, but a car's does. The loose feel made the unfamiliar rear
steering even trickier to master. Thicker cables and five
different rear wheel swivel geometries were tried, but the car
remained unacceptably twitchy.

The amazing maneuverability also caused some problems: a
vigorous twist of the steering wheel could swing the tail way
out beyond the front wheels' tracks, threatening to swat
anything in its path. A violent swerve might tear the rear tire
from the rim. Test drivers could not get used to it; they
rumpled the tail against guard rails more than once. Bucky
himself overturned in an encounter with an embankment, injuring
his wife and daughter.

As he so often recommended, Bucky "reformed the environment
instead of the man" by installing steering restrictors that
kept the tail's path safely inside that of the front wheels at
road speeds. Centering springs made the straight-ahead position
easier to feel. All that helped, but adroit moves still
required practice and caution.

Today, an ergonomics expert would be retained to solve such
problems, but ergonomics which studies the operator-machine
interface--was not a discipline in 1933. There were no guiding
principles to follow. Intuition doesn't always provide
marketable answers especially when time is short. The design of
proper steering would need more time.

========
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 May 1998 01:39:29 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         username@IINET.NET.AU
Organization: iiNet Technologies
Subject:      Re: floating geodesic

On Sat, 16 May 1998 13:43:39 -0500, default
<default@hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us> wrote:

>is there truly a foating geodesic city of something off of australia?
>could you tell me where or send a photo or info?  thanks
>
        If there is I'd like to know where.  I've never heard of such
a dome.  And I take a great interest in Bucky's works.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 May 1998 00:31:04 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: further Dymaxion Car/ABC News info
Comments: To: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Comments: cc: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19980529234158.03004130@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Fri, 29 May 1998, Kirby Urner wrote:
> >From 'BuckyWorks' by Jay Baldwin (John Wiley and Sons, 1996)
> pp 90-91:
>
> ========
>
> Burgess showed considerable courage driving the naked chassis
> fast for the first time. Little was known about vehicle
> dynamics in general--certainly not enough to predict the
> handling characteristics of a three-wheeler with rear-engine,
> rear-wheel steering and front-wheel drive. The machine showed
> promise, but Burgess had some scary moments with uncontrollable
> steering oscillation similar to the "death wobble" rightly
> feared by motorcyclists and the drivers of trailer-towing
> autos. The remedy was time-consuming and expensive: Start over
> with a new chassis that kept all three wheels always
> perpendicular to the road.

I propose several basic assumptions, not physical principles, were at play
in that death wobble.

First, that automobile ownership has precidence over public transit.
Second, that privately owned vehicles need to travel at high speed.

I imagine a world where slow, local dymaxion cars are privately owned,
speed is left to distribution of goods & services and emergency vehicles,
and long distances are left to trains and aviation.  If the dymaxion car
doesn't travel well at high speeds then don't travel at high speeds in it
- don't make unneccesary problems and you will avoid having to solve them.
And the number of people who die on the road each year indicates something
is very wrong with transit as it occurs now.

At present, there is no housing industry to support the popularization of
geodesic domes.  Domes made at present, as important and wonderful as they
are, are 'over-engineered' - designed to do things that over compensate
for a lack of broad based support.  The original dymaxion cars can be
viewed the same way - if they were part of a new pattern of transit rather
than better parts of existing transit, they might have a place now even
without incorporating any new developments.
--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 May 1998 10:10:43 -0500
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From:         Ernie Aiken <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Subject:      Patents
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More dome related patents viewable on-line from the IBM Patent Server-

4651478 : Geodesic mold house
4729197 : Geodesic dome and method of making
4611442 : Large span dome
4833843 : Vaulted dome structure
4333446 : Solar concentrator
4263758 : Clustered geodesic structures
5230196 : Polyhedron building system
5224320 : Space frame system
D284103 : Combined truss strut and hub connector for dome structures
5430989 : Construction system
4542759 : Portable shelter
4566818 : Ledger hanger for geodesic domes

I added these to my patents web page located at-
http://www.fastlane.net/~ega/Patents.htm
  *Ernie