From MAILER-DAEMON Fri Oct 11 17:21:42 2002 Return-Path: Received: from acsu.buffalo.edu (deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.57]) by linux00.LinuxForce.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian -4) with SMTP id g9BLLemd019013 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:21:41 -0400 Message-Id: <200210112121.g9BLLemd019013@linux00.LinuxForce.net> Received: (qmail 11083 invoked from network); 11 Oct 2002 21:21:42 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (listserv@128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 11 Oct 2002 21:21:42 -0000 Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:21:31 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8e)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9906" To: Chris Fearnley Content-Length: 339486 Lines: 7406 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 00:00:04 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Subject: *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the semi-monthly "How To" file about the GEODESIC list. It has info on content and purpose of the list, as well as subscription info, posting instructions, etc. It should prove useful to new subscribers, as well as those who are unfamiliar with LISTSERV operations. This message is being posted on Tue Jun 1 00:00:03 PDT 1999. If you are tired of receiving this message twice per month, and are reading bit.listserv.geodesic through USENET news, then you can enter this subject into your KILL/SCORE file. If you're reading through email, you can set up a filter to delete the message. Both of these tricks are WELL worth learning how to do, if you don't know already. And isn't it about time to learn something new? Isn't it always? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEODESIC is a forum for the discussion of the ideas and creations relating to the work of R. Buckminster (Bucky) Fuller. Topics range from geodesic math to world hunger; floating cities to autonoumous housing, and little bit of everything in between. On topic discussion and questions are welcome. SPAM and unsolicited promotions are not. (Simple, eh?) ----------------------- To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and in the body of your letter put the line: SUB GEODESIC When you want to post, send mail to GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU ******NOT***** to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU! LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is for subscriptions, administrivia, archive requests, etc. GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is the actual discussion group. Anything sent to GEODESIC will go to all members. (And you don't want to look like a jerk having everyone see your "SUB GEODESIC John Q. Public" command! ;^) ) This list is also linked to USENET in the group bit.listserv.geodesic If you want to receive copies of everything you send to the list, use the command SET GEODESIC REPRO. If you DON'T want copies, use SET GEODESIC NOREPRO. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TO SIGN OFF THE LIST: Simply send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and in the body of your letter put the line: SIGNOFF GEODESIC You should receive a confirmation note in the mail when you have been successfully removed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LIST ARCHIVES: - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Jan. 4, 1997 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=GEODESIC@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu And of course, Listserv itself is keeping archives of the list, dating back to June, 1992. Send a note to listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with this message in the BODY of the note: INDEX GEODESIC You can get help on other Listserv commands by putting the line HELP into the body of the note. (Can be in the same message.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe and unsubscribe.) Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 08:47:11 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Jim McGann Subject: Re: *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I HAVE TRIED TO GET OFF THIS LIST TAKING YOUR SUGGESTIONS, BUT I GET UNKNOWN HOST. WHAT IS YOUR NEXT SUGGESTION? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:02:19 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "P. O. Box 2321" Subject: Sun, Not Pollution, Causes 'Global Warming' Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII See URL for complete text... Linkname: BBC News | Sci/Tech | Global warming - is the Sun to blame? http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_358000/358953.stm Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 02:54:19 GMT Global warming - is the Sun to blame? By BBC News Online Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse Global warming may not be caused by humanity's fossil fuel emissions, but could be due to changes in the Sun. Research suggests that the magnetic flux from the Sun more than doubled this century. As solar magnetism is closely linked with sunspot activity and the strength of sunlight reaching Earth, the increase could have produced warming in the global climate. The evidence for an increasingly energetic Sun comes from a new analysis of the magnetic field between the planets, carried out by scientists at the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, near Oxford, UK. -- http://www.box2321.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:25:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: WEB STATS Comments: To: "Michael S. Mitchell" In-Reply-To: <3735EC17.26DB2616@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, Sorry for not responding sooner--I've been swamped lately. If you click on the "View" menu icon in MS Internet Explorer, the next to the bottom item is "Source". Click on that to view the HyperText Markup Language (HTML) code of my home (or any) web page. That will show you how to code your home web page (except your reference number will be different). (HitBox displays an icon which your provider may consider as advertising and not allow.) Follow HitBox's instructions exactly. Joe S Moore mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:34:22 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Buckminster Fuller introduction Comments: To: Dominic Montagu In-Reply-To: <003101beaf16$40a8d3e0$2e5919d0@h1x4m3> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01BEAF47.5C3A0E40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BEAF47.5C3A0E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dominic, I'm shocked!!!??? I searched all the new & used bookstores, tried several search engines, even the Library of Congress. NOTHING! The only reference I know of is on the BFI site (& that's where I got mine). I'm forwarding a copy of this reply to the Geodesic newsletter in the hope that one of its readers may be able to help you. I added a little info to your reference, which is correct as far as I know. Joe S Moore mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ -----Original Message----- From: Dominic Montagu [mailto:dominic@lmi.net] Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 10:43 PM To: joemoore@cruzio.com Subject: Buckminster Fuller introduction Hello, I know it will be a bit esoteric, but on your website you list Bucky Fuller as having written the introduction to a book which I've been searching for for years. It doesn't show up in any library that I've found and so I was wondering if you might have a copy and could perhaps tell me more about it. The book is: Confessions of a Trivialist, by Samuel Roseberg, 1972, Penguin Books, Inc, Baltimore, MD. Buckminster Fuller apparently wrote the introduction (which I didn't know). I had a copy of this book years and years ago and let someone borrow it much to my regret. I would be very very grateful for any more information about it you could give me. Thanks you very much in advance, Dominic Montagu -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Dominic Montagu 823 Mendocino Ave. Berkeley CA 94707 tel: 510-558-3355; fax: 510-558-9063 dominic@lmi.net ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BEAF47.5C3A0E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dominic,
 
I'm=20 shocked!!!???  I searched all the new & used bookstores, tried = several=20 search engines, even the Library of Congress. NOTHING!  The only = reference=20 I know of is on the BFI site (& that's where I got mine).  I'm=20 forwarding a copy of this reply to the Geodesic newsletter in the hope = that one=20 of its readers may be able to help you.  I added a little info to = your=20 reference, which is correct as far as I know.

Joe S Moore
mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller = Virtual=20 Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

-----Original Message-----
From: Dominic Montagu=20 [mailto:dominic@lmi.net]
Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 10:43=20 PM
To: joemoore@cruzio.com
Subject: Buckminster = Fuller=20 introduction

Hello,
 
I know it will be a bit esoteric, but on your = website you=20 list Bucky Fuller as having written the introduction to a book which = I've been=20 searching for for years.  It doesn't show up in any library that = I've=20 found and so I was wondering if you might have a copy and could = perhaps tell=20 me more about it.
 
The book is:  Confessions of a Trivialist, by = Samuel=20 Roseberg, 1972, Penguin Books, Inc, Baltimore,=20 MD.  Buckminster Fuller apparently wrote the introduction (which = I didn't=20 know). I had a copy of this book years and years ago and let someone = borrow it=20 much to my regret.  I would be very very grateful for any more=20 information about it you could give me.  Thanks you very much in=20 advance,
 
Dominic Montagu
---------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------
Dominic=20 Montagu
823 Mendocino Ave.
Berkeley CA 94707
tel: = 510-558-3355; fax:=20 510-558-9063
dominic@lmi.net 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BEAF47.5C3A0E40-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 20:34:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: more Bucky Fuller links Comments: To: David Cary In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, It appears that you stumbled onto my old web site (which I have never bothered to delete). See my current web site below. Joe S Moore mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > -----Original Message----- > From: David Cary [mailto:d.cary@ieee.org] > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 10:43 AM > To: Joe S. Moore > Subject: more Bucky Fuller links > > Dear Joe S. Moore , > > Thanks for putting > Bucky Fuller Virtual Institute > http://bbs.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > online. > > Perhaps you would be interested in the list of Buckminster Fuller links > I've collected at > http://www.rdrop.com/~cary/html/3d_design.html > -- > David Cary "mailto:d.cary@ieee.org" "icbmto:N36 08.830' W97 03.443'" > http://www.rdrop.com/~cary/ > Future Tech, Unknowns, machine vision ><> <*> O- > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:32:13 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: COPYRIGHT Comments: To: devarco@cruzio.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bonnie, Is your _Invisible Architecture: The NanoWorld of Buckminster Fuller_ copyrighted & if so, what year? http://www.cruzio.com/%7Edevarco/invisible.htm Joe S Moore mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:35:09 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: ULTRA-MICRO COMPUTER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How Fuller's Ultra-Micro Computer (UMC) might work: http://www.mrc.uidaho.edu/mrc/people/nystrom/ccp_rick/ccp_rick.html Joe S Moore mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 04:47:06 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT In-Reply-To: <000001beb08d$f367dc60$9d08fbcf@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:32:13 -0700, you wrote: >Bonnie, > >Is your _Invisible Architecture: The NanoWorld of Buckminster Fuller_ >copyrighted & if so, what year? >http://www.cruzio.com/%7Edevarco/invisible.htm > Says Copyright 1997 at the bottom of the above web page. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 May 1999 21:11:06 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: GEODESIC DOMES Comments: To: steelhouse@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry, Is anyone building residential geodesic domes using steel framing? Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:49:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops! Thanks, Kirby. I sort of expected it to be at the top. Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby Urner Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 9:47 PM Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT > On Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:32:13 -0700, you wrote: > > >Bonnie, > > > >Is your _Invisible Architecture: The NanoWorld of Buckminster Fuller_ > >copyrighted & if so, what year? > >http://www.cruzio.com/%7Edevarco/invisible.htm > > > > Says Copyright 1997 at the bottom of the above web page. > > Kirby > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 00:52:12 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: ULTRA-MICRO COMPUTER In-Reply-To: <000101beb08e$5c989260$9d08fbcf@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:35:09 -0700, you wrote: >How Fuller's Ultra-Micro Computer (UMC) might work: >http://www.mrc.uidaho.edu/mrc/people/nystrom/ccp_rick/ccp_rick.html > Thanks for this link Joe -- hadn't seen this site. He uses more the standard academic look and feel for website design. I've had fun poking around in the nooks and crannies -- I'll probably do a link from my 'Invention Behind the Invention: Synergetics in the 1990s -- computerizing synergetics section'. You continue to provide a trully valuable service to all serious-minded Fuller scholars. Kirby >Joe S Moore >mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com >Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute >http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:19:20 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: WEB STATS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit thank you :-) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 06:32:04 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Matthew Davidchuk Subject: New to the group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, I'm new to this group and to Bucky's writings and ideas. I have a couple of questions: 1) The fog gun - does such a thing exist now. I've read that there are industrial use aerator guns but don't know about any for personal bathing. I haven't investigated very far but would like some helpful pointers. Just curious to what extent soap and the associated phosphorous (?) is not needed for personal hygiene. 2) About diamonds (buckyballs' simpler relatives) - I read a news item a year or two ago that General Electric engineers had devised some method to create 'fake' diamonds in a lab that were relatively inexpensive. Just curious if anyone knows anything about where this led and if they have any thoughts on what applications a cheap diamond-like building material would mean for housing. Matthew Davidchuk Toronto, Canada _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:57:42 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: New to the group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear new subscriber I worked with bucky for 16 years as an audio archivist. I would like to say that all is well here. I would like to point out that Kirby Urner who runs the Synergetics list is a scam artist in herding power away from the Buckminster Fuller Institute and bringing it to him. Do not trust him and I suggest that you do not subscribe to the synergetics list for you are voting against Fuller's future at large to do so. I would also ask anyone that is out there to unsubscribe from the syn-l so as to let him know that to go against the Fuller family is not what bucky would have liked. That the FULLER family is part of the archive and that for him to go against them is sacred ground that he should not walk on. He is the Darth Vader of the net for Fuller. Try and help make the balance to the force of Fuller and go against him please. Thank you, Michael S. Mitchell An average person that tries to tell the truth at all times. Matthew Davidchuk wrote: > Hello, > I'm new to this group and to Bucky's writings and ideas. > > I have a couple of questions: > > 1) The fog gun - does such a thing exist now. I've read that there are > industrial use aerator guns but don't know about any for personal > bathing. I haven't investigated very far but would like some helpful > pointers. Just curious to what extent soap and the associated > phosphorous (?) is not needed for personal hygiene. > > 2) About diamonds (buckyballs' simpler relatives) - I read a news item > a year or two ago that General Electric engineers had devised some > method to create 'fake' diamonds in a lab that were relatively > inexpensive. Just curious if anyone knows anything about where this led > and if they have any thoughts on what applications a cheap diamond-like > building material would mean for housing. > > Matthew Davidchuk > Toronto, Canada > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:08:00 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: New to the group In-Reply-To: <376131F6.F13A817E@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:57:42 +0000, you wrote: >Dear new subscriber I worked with bucky for 16 years as an audio >archivist. I would like to say that all is well here. I would like=20 >to point out that Kirby Urner... <> Hey, thanks for the endorsement guy. Guess I must be doing=20 something right! Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:29:53 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Bucky question Comments: To: Matthew Davidchuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew, See http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/IcosHouseShowerScientific.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthew Davidchuk To: Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 1:07 PM Subject: Bucky question > Hello, > I'm just getting into reading about Bucky and have a question about > the Fog Gun. > > Does such a thing now exist? I've read the short reference in 'Bucky > Works'. What do you call the industrial type of fog gun that is > mentioned in that book (an air stream with 'atomized' water which I'm > assuming is the kind of gun used in before you go into a car wash or > that is used to clean sidewalks and streets). > > Where could I find out more information on the construction of this > kind of thing? > > Regards, > Matthew > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:31:43 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Fw: GEODESIC DOMES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Finley To: Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 8:36 PM Subject: Re: GEODESIC DOMES > >Larry, > > > >Is anyone building residential geodesic domes using steel framing? > > > >Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com > >Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > > > >I don't know of any steel kit dome manufacturers. When I was at San > >Nicholas Island, steel tubing was popular as a dome framing material. The > >domes were then covered with fabric. Steel framing could be used as well, > >but the sheathing of the triangles is very wasteful with rectangular > >sheets. > I would suggest, perhaps, building a frame with light gauge steel, and > special connector plates. Ferro cement and plaster could be the exterior > and interior covering, with rigid sprayed insulation in the cavity. > > Up here in Topanga there used to be 4 domes, built in the 70's and early > 80's. two burnt in the Malibu Fire of 93, and one was replaced with > alternative architecture...not a dome, but the owner chose a round home, > with interesting wings. > > Larry > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:26:42 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: New to the group Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes this is the person I am talking about. He is against the Fuller Family and tries to lure people (spam) from this list to his to make him more powerful with the force and use synergetics internet scaming to attack bucky's own flesh and blood. SO ignore him and stay away from his syn-list. Please. This is my opinion of course so find out for your self if you need be. Michael S. Mitchell Please all others out there do not hit any of his computer traps for going against bucky and his family and the Buckminster Fuller Institute. He uses the archive for self enrichment against bucky himself. Anyone new to the group beware please do not think he has anything to do with bucky and his family or any other combination of world game or archives from bucky. He is a rip off con man of the BFI integrity and deserves to be ignored. Please Kirby stay over on your own list and stop making trouble over here. You are not welcome in the Buckminster Fuller family as well as the BFI. Go home and stay away from here please. You only cause trouble. Let others talk with out your rude comments all the time and your condescending attacks of the Fuller family and the BFI. Go some where else and try and rip off Fuller energy, please. Kirby Urner wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:57:42 +0000, you wrote: > > >Dear new subscriber I worked with bucky for 16 years as an audio > >archivist. I would like to say that all is well here. I would like > >to point out that Kirby Urner... > > <> > > Hey, thanks for the endorsement guy. Guess I must be doing > something right! > > Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:34:06 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: building my own dome Comments: To: wdmv.taqpej@auracom.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You may build a 39 1/2 foot dome like bucky did in april, 1961 out of 4/8 plywood. The hex and pent side of the triangle is 7' 11 1/2 ". This will give you the most surface and volume of the amount of plywood. It was the pease dome. I suggest not to put it on a riser for they rot and are basically squares that collapse after while if they get water damage. I would use hot water heat in the slab floor and tile the floor. heat the floor with the water heater and a pump that recycles the water while the water heater is on all the time. The thermostat just turns on the pump when it gets the slab cold. I would use Epoxy west systems over the door hangs and they will not leak. John Mc Hale had the blue print in his book of bucky's dome in Carbondale. I owned it and am now in the process of turning it over the be used as a park in the next year or so. Walter Delorey wrote: > ** To reply in e-mail, remove ".taqpej" from address ** > > Built my own dome in N.S. in 1975. If you post asking for "how to build > a dome" books you might find domebookII or something newer. > > Keep your radius 15ft or less to get max triangles from 4x8 sheets > of plywood. Prepare to shingle for longer than it takes to build the dome. > Build at least a 4ft knee wall (my dome (30ft) is on a 40ftx8ft base). > Expect everyone within fifty miles to visit on sunday afternoon. > Good luck, walt > -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:29:46 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: New to the group In-Reply-To: <3762D092.9C03AE4@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:26:42 +0000, you wrote: >Go some where else and try and rip off Fuller energy, please. > Hey MSM, you're not a listowner here. Patrick has a liberal policy and doesn't try to decide who is welcome (except we had to get rid of that porno guy awhile back -- he wrote a kind letter of apology). Synergetics-L is somewhat less liberal, I admit it. I've kicked=20 three people off in as many years, you being one of them, spammer that you are (trying to sell some bus route from LAX to Disney=20 Land -- not to mention your pathetic dome in Carbondale). But I'm not going to descend to your level and reiterate all our flame wars for the benefit of each and every newcomer to this list -- seems to be your plan (sad, and comical, to see you debase=20 yourself in this way). If anyone cares at all about our little tiffs, they're all archived for eternity via the web interface to the GEODESIC archive:=20 http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html (you and I have hashed it out plenty -- I really don't see why you invite endless repetition (maybe you should get a life?)). Here (in the archives) any scholar can learn what issues divided=20 us, why I kicked you off my list, and so on and so forth. Guess=20 you have lasting bitterness over all that. For my part, I hardly=20 think about you at all, and intend to keep it that way. Plus=20 I expect your negative ad campaign will help win me some more=20 curious subscribers to Synergetics-L and my website, wondering=20 what I've done that's so horrible. It's all on the record in=20 any case. As for my relationship with individual members of Fuller's extended family and/or the BFI, and/or Fuller himself, I don't see that you=20 have much insight into any of that. Fine with me -- let's keep it that way. 'Nuff said. Feel free to continue your rantings, but I'm under no illusions that you speak for the list. And I notice that no one's complained about your absence from Synergetics-L, which is also web accessible (even to nonsubscribers) at: http://lyris1.telelists.com/htbin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dsynergetics-l&text_mod= e=3D0 I invite any to join (except banned spammers). I don't post to=20 Syn-L a whole lot myself these days (that might change), but we=20 have a lot of creative individuals working on various projects,=20 always happy to welcome a newcomer. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:52:42 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Moving to 21st Century Math (1 of 2) In-Reply-To: <36E8D9A5.687FE449@ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [Note to GEODESIC readers: I'm archiving two longish posts to=20 this list -- and not Synergetics-L -- having to do with the inter- face between synergetics, RBF's core philosophy, and the everyday=20 K-16 mathematics curriculum. As a curriculum writer -- my=20 profession according to my most recently filed IRS 1040 -- I've specialized in working to make synergetics accessible and integral within the ordinary math classes that our children will be experiencing (in some cases over the internet, as well as in the company of peers and more experienced teachers). I realize=20 that many subscribers to GEODESIC consider it primarily a vehicle for discussion geodesic domes, but the defining documentation=20 never limited its scope in this way. So please bear with me -- I am not posting outside the proper scope of this listserv by=20 posting this stuff here. Thanks for your understanding. -- KTU] =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =46rom: urner@alumni.princeton.edu (Kirby Urner) Newsgroups: misc.education Subject: Beyond Flatland: 21st Century Math Standards Lines: 106 Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 17:52:59 GMT On Mon, 31 May 1999 08:21:21 -0400, you wrote: >I am a secondary math teacher in rural Georgia. I teach all math levels >and a variety of math subjects. I'm looking for specific >technology-based lesson plans for the mathematics classroom. I use, but >only limitedly, graphing calculators, computers, and CBLs. The sharing >of personal lesson plans and experiences would be greatly appreciated. >I would love to get a discussion going on this topic as I don't get many >chances to interact with other teachers! > >My school doesn't particularly have a philosophy for integrating >technology - what's used and if it's used is left up to individual >teachers, but I feel we need to develop a more concrete program. Greetings Sheila -- I have several ideas to share regarding your question. =46irstly, I encourage teachers to check out Povray, a ray tracing = program. Using it requires knowledge of XYZ coordinates. This gives necessary=20 reinforcement to key topics, but also gives leeway for creativity, as ray tracing involves color, shading, the development of scenes, more like a Renaissance era painter or wood engraver would be into (Durer,=20 Escher). Students can even make T-shirts from the scenes they make on screen (requires color ink jet printer and transfer sheets -- Art Explosion's=20 T-Shirt Factory aids this process with Windows software). Povray is free and multi-platform: http://www.povray.org/ Secondly, you can start phasing in some simple computer programming=20 with the idea of a series and/or sum. Do-loops and sigma notation go=20 together. Any programming language which allows indexed arrays (pretty=20 much all of them) is going to help students understand what sigma=20 notation is all about -- a bridge to the calculus, wherein the sigma=20 becomes the Riemann sum at the limit. Of course spreadsheets work=20 here too (Excel has the sigma icon in its toolbar as I recall). With Povray, students can learn to stack spheres: *=20 * * * * * Which is also the series 1, 2, 3... and then compute the sum: Program: function triangular parameters N sum =3D 0 for i =3D 1 to N sum =3D sum + N endfor ? sum endfunc user: triangular(3) computer: 6 user: triangular(4) computer: 10 Here's a picture, with the spheres done in Povray: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/graphics/trinumbs.gif I've developed all this in more detail elsewhere on the internet. If you want to read more, there's a website hosted by the Math=20 =46orum and National Council of Teachers of Mathematics (NCTM)=20 where I provide more material. See thread starting 18 May,=20 entitled "Scoping out content (connected math topics)" at: http://forum.swarthmore.edu/nctm.standards.2000/nctm.standards.2000.A.tac= o My general philosophy is that computers should be used to take=20 the drudgery out of repeated application of the same algorithms. Students should learn the algorithms, including with paper and=20 pencil, but then be given assignments which create visually=20 rewarding results that would be too tedious to do by hand. =20 I also think computers free us to get into spatial geometry earlier. Unlike graphing calculators, computers are easily empowered to give us 3D views. Polyhedra need to make a come back, along with their=20 real world applications (crystallography, architecture). Programs=20 like Povray let students focus on the XYZ apparatus and not worry about messy perspective issues -- something Povray takes care of. Once you're operating in space, and not just on a flat plane, you have more freedoms as a teacher to explore concepts such as rotational=20 symmetry and space-filling, as well as sphere packing. I highly=20 recommend this "Beyond Flatland" approach as a hallmark of 21st=20 century high tech mathematics curricula. Kirby Curriculum writer Oregon Curriculum Network http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:54:07 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Moving to 21st Century Math (2 of 2) In-Reply-To: <000701beb51a$ce673500$9e08fbcf@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46rom: urner@alumni.princeton.edu (Kirby Urner) Newsgroups: misc.education Subject: Re: Beyond Flatland: 21st Century Math Standards Lines: 215 Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:43:37 GMT On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 11:47:00 PDT, you wrote: >I'm reasonably familiar with Derive, Mathematica, Mathcad, and Matlab, = but=20 >I use a graphing calculator more often than all my math software = packages=20 >combined. For most of my tasks, I can get answers from the calculator = more=20 >quickly than the time it takes for my laptop to boot up (let alone the=20 >additional time it takes for Mathematica to load its kernel). If I = wanted=20 >to keep a record of my work, I'd use something other than a calculator, = but=20 >for quick and dirty answers, I find using a computer too slow and = clumsy. > >Of course I work in the lofty ivory tower of a community college, so my = use=20 >of calculators and computers won't reflect the real world. But I do = know=20 >that even though I have a food processor essential for several of my=20 >recipes, I do most of my slicing, chopping, and mixing without it. The=20 >computer is unquestionably a wonderful tool with a multitude of=20 >applications, but it is not the only useful tool, nor is it always the = best=20 >tool. > >Bruce Yoshiwara > I think these are good points -- the calculator remains a handy dandy=20 little artifact for many, and computers might just be overkill when=20 you need some quick and dirty graphs and or numeric outputs. My own view of the place computers might play in a mathematics=20 curriculum is not particularly conventional, and should therefore be presented with the necessary caveats. My view is that students need more exposure to non-numeric operators, which likewise follow strict rules and have a place in the underlying processes which keep our civilization chugging along. So I'm drawn to using computers because I can introduce notation=20 and syntax which calculators (and most pre-computer text books) do not support. I am NOT using Mathematica, Matlab or Derive. I do use some MathCad, but often just to get some of the symbols cut and pasted to the web (i.e. for typography e.g. big radical signs with greek letters,=20 sigmas and stuff like that). My beef with the more conventional approach to mathematics is that it is stuck in an era before we did a lot of electronic processing with alphanumeric (not just numeric) data. So we don't expose=20 students to concepts of list, tuple, object, string in the context of mathematics class -- we lump all that under the heading of=20 computer science (meaning many students don't get early exposure, or none at all). What I'm fighting is overspecialization and the acceptance of the status quo, wherein "thinking about math" is over here in box A,=20 and learning to program your ideas on computer, explore logic and algorithms using electronic means is over there in box B. I want boxes A and B to smash together and integrate their content much more successfully. So, for example, I'll label the 4 vertices of a tetrahedron A-D, and the inverted tetrahedron E-H. The two tetrahedra interpenetrate to form a cube with vertices A-H. The dual to that cube is an=20 octahedron of 6 vertices: I-N. The cube and octahedron together comprise a rhombic dodecahedron with vertices A-N. 12 more vertices of the surrounding cuboctahedron (O-Z) give me an inventory of points A-Z (26 vertices). That's an easy mnemonic -- something to carry around in your head (along with the volumes table -- below). So now I want to store the coordinates of all those points in a dictionary of some kind. This is where math books go blank=20 (conventionally) because the idea of a "data dictionary" is=20 for computer people, even though math books customarily label points with letters. We teach the paper and pencil way of=20 tracing a line from point A to point B, but what does this=20 look like on computer (which is the place you'll more likely be needing to connect the dots in future)? I want my students to become familiar with syntax like: >>>datapoints =3D [ = "A":(1,0,0,0),"B":(0,1,0,0),"C":(0,0,1,0),"D":(0,0,0,1)] where A-D are "keys" and tuples (1,0,0,0)-(0,0,0,1) are "values". Then I want them to write a function that traverses datapoints and returns a new dictionary with all the tuples "inverted" e.g. >>> newpoints =3D invert(datapoints) >>> newpoints [ "A":(0,1,1,1),"B":(1,0,1,1),"C":(1,1,0,1),"D":(1,1,1,0)] And how does (1,0,0,0) get to be the vertex of a tetrahedron? =20 I'm not using XYZ coordinates, but something called "quadrays": 4 basis vectors from the center of a regular tetrahedron span volume such that non-negative 4-tuples have a unique, lowest terms mapping to XYZ's 3-tuples. So then I need functions=20 for converting XYZ->quadray and quadray->XYZ. Perhaps a=20 points dictionary (such as shown above) will be my input to such functions.[1] Note also that I'm not using the conventionally taught primitive volume values for these polyhedra, preferring the following=20 table for its streamlined simplicity: Volume Tetrahedron ABCD: 1 Inverted EFGH: 1 Cube ABCDEFGH: 3 Octa IJKLMN: 4 Rh Dodec A-N: 6 Cuboct N-Z: 20 See animated GIF at: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/intro.html I get this table from "synergetic geometry", a frontier philosophy which has by now spawned a rather large and growing research=20 community -- great for patching students into some recent=20 explorations (e.g. tensegrity, elastic interval geometry,=20 synergetic crystallography) that don't require years of preparation. [Of course it irks me that so many mathematics teachers choose=20 to ignore the simple advantages of this volume table, and the=20 boost it gives, especially to a younger set just starting out, when attempting to wrap one's minds around spatial geometry -- but I've diatribed enough on that in other contexts and needn't bore readers here with any tirades or lectures in this regard] So instead of Mathematica and Matlab, I'd rather have my students studying Java and Python, backending these into a ray tracer like Povray (for visuals), or into a VRML world. All three of these=20 languages and platforms are freeware and very capable. =20 So some of the elements of my non-traditional approach are: (a) use some synergetic geometry and it's streamlined approach=20 to polyhedra and sphere packing to get "beyond flatland" (b) converge geometric visualization w/ algorithmic processes=20 known and proved by mathematicians (e.g. Pythagorean=20 theorem), but with the syntax/notation of computer languages=20 to explore these concepts interactively (c) in particular, study coordinate geometry and polyhedra in=20 conjunction with matrix transformations of shapes (rotate,=20 scale, translate). I even introduce quaternions at this=20 point, in the context Hamilton intended for them: as objects=20 that rotate vectors in space.[2] Visualization is at the core, so even though students are manipulating symbols ala algebraic texts, they have rendered output in a lot of cases. =20 But this doesn't mean I avoid real algebra either. My website gets=20 into Pascal's triangle + Binomial Theorem (a standard link) and=20 uses sphere packing to get to power series (series in general) and=20 Bernoulli numbers.[3] =20 Lots of probability and statistics notions can fit in at this point=20 (Pascal's triangle defines a Gaussian distribution, as those science=20 museum "falling ball" demos so appropriately demonstrate). Plus you=20 need some of the permutation and combination concepts to adequately=20 define these series (Pascal, Bernoulli). =20 Sigma notation goes here -- prelude to the Riemann sum -- along with=20 a seamless integration with do-loops (by the time students hit sigma=20 notation, they should already have fluency enough in some computer=20 language to implement them -- a basic premise of my curriculum). =46rom such a discrete math background, I move towards the calculus by=20 "increasing the frequency" (frequency is a key term, defined elsewhere=20 in the curriculum)[4] -- same as going to the limit, in terms of=20 positing a continuum (at which point we finally get to the "real=20 numbers" -- until now we've been using floating points, integers and=20 other sets which have specific meaning in the electronified world of=20 computers and calculators, but which are not the "reals" until we get=20 to the metaphysics of "infinity" (something computers don't deal with=20 except by over and under flowing)). =20 That's right: I don't start with the "reals" -- I get to them later,=20 as abstractions involving "infinity" need not clutter our investigations=20 right out of the starting gate (I think we hit kids too early with a=20 lot of "infinity talk" -- before they have any philosophical training,=20 ergo have no defenses against sloppy philosophies (not that all philo- sophers who use "infinity" are sloppy -- but many of them are)). Anyway, that's where I'm heading in a nutshell. I need computers=20 because calculators are too difficult to program adequately,=20 especially in the realm of alphanumeric (not just numeric)=20 algorithms. Students like this mix of computerese and conventional mathematics because having some exposure to Linux, HTML, Java, Python, XML/XSL,=20 and SQL is what looks great on a resume. These are hot button topics. No reason to divorce mathematics from what it takes to get a job these days. On the contrary, I side with mathematician Keith Devlin: =20 math is about making the invisible visible, and if you have no insight into what all these computers are doing all around you, then your math class has failed to lift the veil of mystery and ignorance from in front of your face. Kirby Curriculum writer Oregon Curriculum Network http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/ [1] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadrays.html also "Success Story: Using VFP to Teach Object-Oriented Programming" by K. Urner, FoxPro Advisor (Advisor Media, Inc.,=20 March 1999), pg 48 also http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/oop.html [2] http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/oopalgebra.html [3] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/sphpack.html [4] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/omnihalo.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:57:01 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: =geodesic@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu <> Brian Hutchings 13-JUN-1999 13:57 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us Moving to 21st Century Math (in re) uh-oh. I favor the use of only TeX programming, and all other languages (including LaTeX and other front-ends, and especially graphical environments other than this exercise in literacy) is striktly verboten ... except for some in-class machine-language, of course -- no assembler allowed! everything else must be handwritten, of course including the chalkboard. --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bushjfk.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:58:59 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: meat, poultry and dairy recall in Belgium <> Brian Hutchings 13-JUN-1999 13:58 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us SUBJECT: [Q-P] meat, poultry and dairy recall in Belgium MESSAGE from =r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.U 08-JUN-19 12:17 <> Brian Hutchings 08-JUN-1999 11:12 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us actually, the EPA line on dioxin is way-pverblown, because most of hese things have "organic" analogs, or they would not *be* toxic in the first place (i.e.ask yourself about the effectiveness of organophosphates with insects, as insecticides). per dioxin, Bruce Ames has shown that the cellular receptor for dioxin (in mammals) is the same one as for a compound that's found in brocolli (and other vegetables in the mustard (cruciferai) family (genus?). it's true that it may have had an effect upon the tenure of Sir George Bush, however happily. in other words, if plenty of cabbage is available to block it, this might make a great item of relief for Kosovars & Serbians, when the peace is won & the Marshall Plan --Clinton's, not Blair's-- begins. --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:52:43 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Subject: A few words on list etiquette... In-Reply-To: <199906130521.WAA05106@bucky.sculptors.com>; from L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8d) on Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 01:21:33AM -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > From: "Michael S. Mitchell" > Subject: Re: New to the group > Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU [Michael writes a tirade against Kirby] > He uses the archive > for self enrichment against bucky himself. Anyone new to the group > beware please do not think he has anything to do with bucky and his > family or any other combination of world game or archives from bucky. > He is a rip off con man of the BFI integrity and deserves to be ignored. > Please Kirby stay over on your own list and stop making trouble over > here. > You are not welcome in the Buckminster Fuller family as well as the BFI. > Go home and stay away from here please. You only cause trouble. > Let others talk with out your rude comments all the time and your > condescending attacks of the Fuller family and the BFI. > Go some where else and try and rip off Fuller energy, please. > Umm. I hate to sound all heavy-handed, here, Michael, but as the founder and background maintainer of this list, I feel that you may have just stepped on my toes a bit, so I feel the need to post. If you have something to say about a person that you don't like, it's generally better to say it privately to that person than to air your dirty laundry for all to see. That just leads to embarassing situations. Kirby has been a long-time member and contributor to this community, and despite your recent quarrels, I feel that many of his posts over the years have been on-target, and relevant to discussions here. If YOU, PERSONALLY don't like Kirby's posts, then YOU, PERSONALLY should set up some filter rules or a kill file and delete all posts from him, so that your eyes aren't troubled by his words. But PLEASE don't go around defaming him to newcomers to the list. This list is a forum for people to discuss Bucky, his works, and all things related to geodesics and Design Science. It's not alt.flame, and if you want to flame someone, then you should probably post the flames over there. As list owner, I'd have to say that you're not authorized to extend official welcome or unwelcome status to anyone on the list. I think you've made your personal viewpoint quite clear, but please don't speak in my capacity as to who's welcome on this list. As far as I'm concerned, everyone's welcome here who wants to talk about the aforementioned topics of Bucky, geodesics, Design Science, etc. The only people I feel are "officially" unwelcome on this list are SPAMmers trying to sell unrelated cruft here, taking up everyone's bandwidth and time. Please let the feuding drop, set up your appropriate filters, and let's try to re-focus on relevant discussion topics. Thanks. -- Pat ___________________Think For Yourself____________________ Patrick G. Salsbury - http://reality.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ Check out the Reality Sculptors Project: http://reality.sculptors.com/ --------------------------------------------------------- Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all. Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature. --Helen Keller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 06:15:58 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: A few words about sanctity. <> Brian Hutchings 14-JUN-1999 6:15 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us my dear mister Salisbury; you do not seem to be of a sufficently brazen demeanor to be the moderator of this list. as a matter of doctrine, this is reflected in your obsequious categorization of the *modus demonstrandum* of this list. the "least action" between 4 events in Universe is, a geodesic tetrahedron; agreed?... likewise, the surest path to transcendental exhuberance in Synergetics --and the minor backwater of dome-on-the-range-ology-- requires a worshipful attitude toward Bucky, His Holy Family, His Works and His Universe. while I am quite sure that you will be brought-up by the short-hairs of your own realization of your near-blasphemy, the honorable thing to do would be to resign, forthwith, at the count of 60, and give it up for Captain Mitch of the Horizontal Command! now, I can hardly wait for the Carbonshrine of Carbondale, Illinois, to come online; will there be a camping grounds (yeeha) ?? oh, and the Carbonized Remains ?!? thank you, and may the Farce be with you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 05:53:28 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: A few words on list etiquette... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr. Salsbury, May I have a discussion concerning this on the list with you. I feel that freedom of comprehensively to speak of that inwhich bucky would allow would be interesting to consider. My point is that Mr. Urner spends his whole time contributing to make the BFI look stupid. He has like Ken Star tried to make the BFI and the Family of Bucky and Anne Fuller be looked on in a way that only a person like me can try and keep others who come new to the area of Fuller can get a warning. I am not trying to say that he is not welcome to your list, He is not welcome to the Fuller camp at all. If your list is to reflect that inwhich the comprehensive views of Fuller then the ability for anyone to say what they think should be on the list would be accepted. I am only saying from my view what I see. This is what the list should allow anyone to do. I am not owner of the list and if you have these ground rules then I subside. Just how far can I go to tell those that come to the list that yes Urner has read Fuller and yes he has guarded the bathrooms for est, and yes he has used the computer to forward Robert Gray's synergetics on the net, but he has what he calls his monkey house of geodesics, I only wish to warn people that there is a dragon among us and to not get all this confidence about him as if he represents the Fuller legacy in anyway, which new comers do. If you will not allow me to do this then I think you are wrong. I will not greet people as if it is my list I would like to greet people and say he hates the BFI and do not trust his beliefs about the Fuller Family. If you do not allow this to be done then you are yourself allowing this to go un blocked and the Buckminster Fuller Institute to go slandered by this idiot. This is not flaming for the sake of flaming it is the real heart of the Fuller movement here. If your ego can not stand it then this list is also short sided as the synlist. This is the real discussion of the Buckminster Fuller works. If you do not allow this discussion why have you started this list? I wish to discuss more than just Kirby, and I have, by the site I have of 5 mess every day or so and being in the top ten hits on most servers with Fuller on my site, I would say it all came from your list. This would mean that many lurkers out there want to see the real soap opera of bucky's life and struggles that are present to get on with the unity not the diversity. When someone like Kirby who is as you say well seated in the computer side and political not correct on the integrity side trim tabs people to not support the bfi and to support his list. This is where someone like me, an average person that knew bucky very well and worked with him for 16 years as a friend and archivist, can say hay, this guy is full of shit. This is the real need of these lists to tell the truth. I only want to tell the truth. If you want me to tone it down I will. Just how far can I go to warn people of the dark side? How long have you studied Fuller? Where do you stand with the BFI. If you are against them as well I will leave this list if you want. Then all new people can just think that Urner is a Fuller angle and put a big gap in time in the fuller force that would take years to stop the propaganda that the bfi is bad and the Fuller family is bad. This is a great insult to the sacristy of Bucky and it is not true or right. I suppose Computer people stick together and that is more important than the truth about bucky? I am trying to catch up with the years of hate he has spread about the BFI and the Fuller family that is just his simple small opinion and not mine, is this so bad for the public to see. I am not saying as owner of the list anything, I am saying as user of this precious artifact, that Kirby is trying to get me off the air and kicked me off his list and now he will do what he can to have his chair back to just slander the BFI and the Fuller family at will. IF you are on his side it is sad. Please do not do that. Thank you, Michael S. Mitchell http://home.earthlink.net/~syntrivity/index.html I do not want to leave this list so tell me what your little heart desires. I do want to say to everyone once in a while that Kirby is Darth Vader to the Fuller Force. If you will allow me to do this it will make us all honest. This alone should be the factor is the truth on your list? This goes to Fuller's heart, what is the truth? I do not want Kirby to not use this list, only to say he is sorry and that he will not flame the intitute any more. If he is allowed to do this on your list why may I not flame him for doing it, he has done it many times on your list. I can show you in the archives if you want me too. I am only asking him to leave the fuller flaming he does on his own list. I will start my own list if I have time and kick him off I guess, How do you start one of these things.? How much work is it? How much does it costs? And any other helpful hints I would love to know. Thank you and I am sorry to bring you to your feet with this. Patrick Salsbury wrote: > > From: "Michael S. Mitchell" > > Subject: Re: New to the group > > Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU > > [Michael writes a tirade against Kirby] > > > He uses the archive > > for self enrichment against bucky himself. Anyone new to the group > > beware please do not think he has anything to do with bucky and his > > family or any other combination of world game or archives from bucky. > > He is a rip off con man of the BFI integrity and deserves to be ignored. > > Please Kirby stay over on your own list and stop making trouble over > > here. > > You are not welcome in the Buckminster Fuller family as well as the BFI. > > Go home and stay away from here please. You only cause trouble. > > Let others talk with out your rude comments all the time and your > > condescending attacks of the Fuller family and the BFI. > > Go some where else and try and rip off Fuller energy, please. > > > Umm. I hate to sound all heavy-handed, here, Michael, but as the > founder and background maintainer of this list, I feel that you may have > just stepped on my toes a bit, so I feel the need to post. > If you have something to say about a person that you don't like, > it's generally better to say it privately to that person than to air your > dirty laundry for all to see. That just leads to embarassing situations. > Kirby has been a long-time member and contributor to this > community, and despite your recent quarrels, I feel that many of his posts > over the years have been on-target, and relevant to discussions here. > If YOU, PERSONALLY don't like Kirby's posts, then YOU, PERSONALLY > should set up some filter rules or a kill file and delete all posts from > him, so that your eyes aren't troubled by his words. But PLEASE don't go > around defaming him to newcomers to the list. > > This list is a forum for people to discuss Bucky, his works, and > all things related to geodesics and Design Science. It's not alt.flame, and > if you want to flame someone, then you should probably post the flames over > there. > > As list owner, I'd have to say that you're not authorized to extend > official welcome or unwelcome status to anyone on the list. I think you've > made your personal viewpoint quite clear, but please don't speak in my > capacity as to who's welcome on this list. As far as I'm concerned, > everyone's welcome here who wants to talk about the aforementioned topics > of Bucky, geodesics, Design Science, etc. > The only people I feel are "officially" unwelcome on this list are > SPAMmers trying to sell unrelated cruft here, taking up everyone's > bandwidth and time. > > Please let the feuding drop, set up your appropriate filters, and > let's try to re-focus on relevant discussion topics. > > Thanks. > > -- > Pat > ___________________Think For Yourself____________________ > Patrick G. Salsbury - http://reality.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ > Check out the Reality Sculptors Project: http://reality.sculptors.com/ > --------------------------------------------------------- > Life is either a daring adventure or nothing at all. Security is mostly a > superstition. It does not exist in nature. > --Helen Keller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 06:07:50 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: New to the group Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E08F86A0D5B348F91F32A026" --------------E08F86A0D5B348F91F32A026 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have truth against you. Michael S. Mitchell Kirby Urner wrote: > On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:26:42 +0000, you wrote: > > >Go some where else and try and rip off Fuller energy, please. > > > > Hey MSM, you're not a listowner here. Patrick has a liberal policy > and doesn't try to decide who is welcome (except we had to get rid > of that porno guy awhile back -- he wrote a kind letter of apology). > > Synergetics-L is somewhat less liberal, I admit it. I've kicked > three people off in as many years, you being one of them, spammer > that you are (trying to sell some bus route from LAX to Disney > Land -- not to mention your pathetic dome in Carbondale). > > But I'm not going to descend to your level and reiterate all our > flame wars for the benefit of each and every newcomer to this > list -- seems to be your plan (sad, and comical, to see you debase > yourself in this way). > > If anyone cares at all about our little tiffs, they're all archived > for eternity via the web interface to the GEODESIC archive: > http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html (you and > I have hashed it out plenty -- I really don't see why you invite > endless repetition (maybe you should get a life?)). > > Here (in the archives) any scholar can learn what issues divided > us, why I kicked you off my list, and so on and so forth. Guess > you have lasting bitterness over all that. For my part, I hardly > think about you at all, and intend to keep it that way. Plus > I expect your negative ad campaign will help win me some more > curious subscribers to Synergetics-L and my website, wondering > what I've done that's so horrible. It's all on the record in > any case. > > As for my relationship with individual members of Fuller's extended > family and/or the BFI, and/or Fuller himself, I don't see that you > have much insight into any of that. Fine with me -- let's keep it > that way. > > 'Nuff said. Feel free to continue your rantings, but I'm under > no illusions that you speak for the list. And I notice that no > one's complained about your absence from Synergetics-L, which > is also web accessible (even to nonsubscribers) at: > http://lyris1.telelists.com/htbin/lyris.pl?enter=synergetics-l&text_mode=0 > > I invite any to join (except banned spammers). I don't post to > Syn-L a whole lot myself these days (that might change), but we > have a lot of creative individuals working on various projects, > always happy to welcome a newcomer. > > Kirby --------------E08F86A0D5B348F91F32A026 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have truth against you.
Michael S. Mitchell

Kirby Urner wrote:

On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:26:42 +0000, you wrote:

>Go some where else and try and rip off Fuller energy, please.
>

Hey MSM, you're not a listowner here.  Patrick has a liberal policy
and doesn't try to decide who is welcome (except we had to get rid
of that porno guy awhile back -- he wrote a kind letter of apology).

Synergetics-L is somewhat less liberal, I admit it.  I've kicked
three people off in as many years, you being one of them, spammer
that you are (trying to sell some bus route from LAX to Disney
Land -- not to mention your pathetic dome in Carbondale).

But I'm not going to descend to your level and reiterate all our
flame wars for the benefit of each and every newcomer to this
list -- seems to be your plan (sad, and comical, to see you debase
yourself in this way).

If anyone cares at all about our little tiffs, they're all archived
for eternity via the web interface to the GEODESIC archive:
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html (you and
I have hashed it out plenty -- I really don't see why you invite
endless repetition (maybe you should get a life?)).

Here (in the archives) any scholar can learn what issues divided
us, why I kicked you off my list, and so on and so forth.  Guess
you have lasting bitterness over all that.  For my part, I hardly
think about you at all, and intend to keep it that way.  Plus
I expect your negative ad campaign will help win me some more
curious subscribers to Synergetics-L and my website, wondering
what I've done that's so horrible.  It's all on the record in
any case.

As for my relationship with individual members of Fuller's extended
family and/or the BFI, and/or Fuller himself, I don't see that you
have much insight into any of that.  Fine with me -- let's keep it
that way.

'Nuff said.  Feel free to continue your rantings, but I'm under
no illusions that you speak for the list.  And I notice that no
one's complained about your absence from Synergetics-L, which
is also web accessible (even to nonsubscribers) at:
http://lyris1.telelists.com/htbin/lyris.pl?enter=synergetics-l&text_mode=0

I invite any to join (except banned spammers).  I don't post to
Syn-L a whole lot myself these days (that might change), but we
have a lot of creative individuals working on various projects,
always happy to welcome a newcomer.

Kirby

  --------------E08F86A0D5B348F91F32A026-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 06:24:30 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Moving to 21st Century Math (1 of 2) Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby Urner wrote: > [Note to GEODESIC readers: I'm archiving two longish posts to > this list -- and not Synergetics-L -- You see this was posted on the syn-list just last week or so and isspamming in that case. I did not spam the syn list for a bus company I was talking with a Mr. Rose about how he could get money for his project to get behind Fuller. This is a frame up by Kirby with his friends to stop the Fuller family from having any say about Bucky on the net and scam artists hacking coupe of his integrity. Just a tid bit of information from me about this. I should be allowed to give my view. Why not he has spammed his here from Syn list. By the way I sold the dome and it is on the way to becoming a historical property in a year or so. I sold it to William Perk who has promised me it will be taken care of and made into a park or a historical frame work appropriate to Bucky and Anne Fuller's life. What more important things can the Fuller list talk about than making his artifacts and designing them into a peoples park. But no I am a bad guy, right Kirby and what ever your name is that owns this list. I am very bad you should ban me from all your Fuller lists I know more about him than you do. Oh yes be sure and ban Fuller's family from the list as you always have Darth Urner, You can't have someone that can up stage you on the net. MSM I am moving to the 21st Century making bucky's only dome home a historical property by handing it over to someone that I know will do so. http"//home.earthlink.net/~syntrivity/index.html By the way as well you do not understand synergetics as I have proven on the synlist before you kicked me off for your ego birthday as you stated as a gift to yourself. Your soul is defication. You do not understand bucky, your love is for yourself, the force can not be with you. You must love all to have the force. Not your self! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:59:34 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: More historical narrative re BFI etc. In-Reply-To: <3764A01E.EF7DE976@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 06:24:30 +0000, you wrote: >Kirby Urner wrote: > >> [Note to GEODESIC readers: I'm archiving two longish posts to >> this list -- and not Synergetics-L -- > >You see this was posted on the syn-list just last week or so and = isspamming in >that case. =20 You're right, I did post that first one to my list awhile back (though not the second). It's not spamming though, but cross-posting, because this curriculum design stuff is equally relevant over there, is a=20 continuation of a long thread on that list. >I did not spam the syn list for a bus company >I was talking with a Mr. Rose about how he could get money for his >project to get behind Fuller. =20 You were soliciting for anyone (not Mr. Rose in particular) to buy=20 this property or license, for some thousands of dollars (completely inappropriate for Syn-L to be used this way). If you were just=20 into helping Mr. Rose, you should have communicated with him=20 privately.=20 BTW, Mr. Rose was invited to participate in Syn-L by myself, has=20 contributed a lot, but does not have a project to get behind Fuller -- unless you got some private communication telling you otherwise. =20 He's an independent scholar with his own direction, with some=20 partial overlap with what others are doing, including around=20 synergetics. >This is a frame up by Kirby with his >friends to stop the Fuller family from having any say about Bucky on the >net and scam artists hacking coupe of his integrity. What are you alledging exactly? I have no interest in stopping anyone from having any say about Bucky on the net. I tried to get BFI-L started, for volunteers and staff, and of course Allegra and Jaime, to all share via listserv how we wanted to manage projects=20 and coordinate efforts. =20 Allegra and I sent a lot of emails back and forth about this idea=20 (a long time ago). As it turns out, Allegra didn't want to have=20 a BFI listserv because of her concerns about who else might join=20 the list (I was not perceived as a threat of any kind back then=20 -- but Allegra was paranoid about certain others). I'm the one who created the first BFI website, remember? After=20 that is when the turning point came. My relationship with BFI=20 was already strained somewhat by the huge blow-up over the DeVarco=20 matter (Bonnie and Tony had to leave, after doing a lot for the=20 Institute). Board members had already resigned in protest (and=20 never said they were sorry about doing it). Emotions were running=20 high.=20 That I would choose this moment to dive in and help BFI in a big way for free was perhaps viewed with some suspicion by those who=20 were on the other side in this battle. Was I betraying their=20 trust in me? But I still thought BFI could be brought up to=20 speed, was willing to give it a go -- daring to be naive I guess. =20 A website, with a domain name (bfi.org) was the critical step. =20 Kiyoshi, his colleague Rich, and I worked as a team. Kiyoshi=20 provided the web server and registered the bfi.org domain name,=20 and I did all the HTML. It was a good site. BFI started getting=20 lots of hits right away. Allegra was very pleased and almost=20 single-handedly did a whole issue of TrimTab devoted largely=20 to the new website. My management philosophy was we had a large pool of eager=20 volunteers and no way should I ensconce myself permanently as=20 the BFI webmaster. Why hog all the fame and glory? Here was=20 a chance for any number of people to get in line and take a=20 crack at promoting the design science revolution via artifact=20 design (a website is an artifact of a kind). =20 So I made it clear that my term would end, winter solstice, and=20 others should step forward to become volunteer webmaster, in=20 what I conceived would be a fairly high turnover position (no=20 reason to generate burnout). Some people on my Syn-L list,=20 aware of the plan, stepped forward. I encouraged BFI to let=20 others know of the opportunity. I'm pretty sure I posted=20 about the upcoming vacancy to Geodesic as well. Then I stepped down, and received a letter of thanks from=20 Hans Meyer, former BFI prez. Then the months started to fly=20 by, with no one actively changing or updating the website. =20 The website continued to announce "upcoming events" that=20 were long passed. No new pictures or materials from the=20 vast archives made their appearance, even though BFI had=20 long ago finally spent the earmarked grant and purchased a=20 high end scanner, hooked to its high end (at the time)=20 Apple Macintosh. Even Bob Gray's implementation of=20 'Synergetics' for the web was not linked from bfi.org! By the time a year had passed, I was no longer able to=20 privately contain my disappointment and took the matter up=20 with Allegra directly, cc: some others on the internet. I'm=20 sure this is where I started to alienate some folks, as all=20 of a sudden I was sounding pretty outraged. Plus everyone=20 likes Allegra, a sweet lady by all accounts (we've met in=20 person and I agree). But I felt like someone needed to point=20 out that letting the website slide for a year was just a=20 huge mistake and symptomatic of the pathologically slow=20 and overly tentative management style which many (many!)=20 have found behind the scenes at BFI. Sure, you can mine the Fuller syllabus for justifications,=20 talk about gestation rates, nature having its cycles and so forth. Kind of like with the Bible, you can probably justify anything (including horrendous pollution) by citing some=20 passage in 'Synergetics' or elsewhere. But Fuller also wrote about the need for courage and risk-taking ('Grunch of Giants'). I'd risked the trust of others, already outraged by the BFI, and now my gift of a website was being taken for granted,=20 allowed to lie fallow, while the wheels turned excrutiatingly=20 slowly (in the end, after years of inhouse focus groups and=20 memoranda, BFI decided a website was just the ticket, pivotal=20 to its needs -- duh -- and set about trying to raise $50,000=20 for a webmaster -- the very job I had done and volunteers=20 could have handled for free in the meantime). Only after I staged this little temper tantrum over the moribund website (mostly I insisted that my name be removed from the very backpage credits I had myself written -- because I didn't want to=20 be associated with such a mismanaged website) did the BFI spring=20 into action and get someone to revamp it using Microsoft Frontpage=20 (I believe it was). =20 That's the website you see there now. Again, it tends not to=20 change much. At least I don't get the feeling of an active and=20 aware intelligence behind it, tracking what's going on and=20 creating new links to a lot of the new websites springing up. =20 That's what I think people want and need: a sense that BFI is tracking and responsive. >Just a tid bit of information from me about this. I should be allowed >to give my view. Why not he has spammed his here from Syn list. You confuse cross-posting with spamming. Cross-posting may become spamming (as you've demonstrated many times), but the two are not=20 the same. >By the way as well you do not understand synergetics as I have >proven on the synlist before you kicked me off for your ego >birthday as you stated as a gift to yourself. Your soul is defication. >You do not understand bucky, your love is for yourself, the force can >not be with you. You must love all to have the force. Not your self! You lack perspective. Is it so inconceivable to you that people=20 may disagree with you and yet have their own integrity? You have those childish idea that "truth" is yours and yours alone. Did=20 you make a conscious decision to not become an adult, or were you blessed with such primal ignorance? You and I started to fight when I quoted Jay Baldwin about your=20 dome in Carbondale. He has a right to his opinion (which is that=20 this dome is not such a great momento of Bucky's grand vision)=20 but you immediately started screaming about "Hitler Jay". =20 Soon thereafter you were attacking me for using drugs (I can't=20 remember why) and only later confessed to the list that you were=20 dropping acid at the time you first met Anne and Bucky.=20 Then you were on Omaha Beach in Normandy attacking Hitler Kirby,=20 then you were Michael Jordon doing slam-dunk syntrivity, now=20 you're some Jedi hero and I'm Darth Vader. Kinda fun, but=20 remember that Fuller was really not into 'good and bad' people=20 in the way so many of us are (see opening sentences of 'Critical=20 Path') -- he had a philosophy that went beyond good and evil in=20 a lot of ways (kinda like Nietzsche's). All your chest thumping=20 about how evil I am really doesn't make you sound much like a=20 Bucky student, for all your talk of "16 years" and flaunting of=20 that letter (scrawled "To Whom It May Concern" -- Fuller=20 anticipating a lot of us would be, about you, and letting us=20 know he had discerned your integrity under all the poopka). Again, I've worked closely with Allegra and our falling out came over the issue of mismanagement. I took my issues up with Allegra=20 directly, not by sneaking around behind her back. Plus I have this=20 letter from Bucky Fuller to Werner Erhard which I posted more about=20 in May, and which I think Fuller wrote knowing full-well he was=20 creating an important historical record. That raises more concerns=20 around this issue of integrity -- concerns I've already expressed=20 directly, and which don't directly concern you. More information=20 about all that linked from my web page detailing my history with=20 the BFI at http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bfihist.html Kirby PS: I didn't "guard the bathrooms" for est, and the geodesic domes "monkey house" is not mine -- you've confused me with=20 another contributor to this list. Again, you've demonstrated that you take great liberties, allowing yourself to be as=20 sloppy as you like with the facts, twisting your story however you need to in order to make yourself sound like a hero. =20 I have no idea why you think I need to say I'm sorry. From my=20 viewpoint, I have behaved integrity and intelligence in the=20 face of great odds (it'd be hard enough if BFI had competent=20 management), doing what I see needs to be done. I'm not some=20 kiss-ass politician who tries to suck up to people and curry=20 favor for reasons of expediency. That seems more your style=20 (hence your plan to start the "Bucky Party" and name yourself=20 candidate for president, claiming Bucky's apolitical stance=20 is what makes it OK for everybody else to continue swilling=20 in politics -- a very convenient and self-serving reading, as=20 per usual). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:08:09 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: More historical narrative re BFI etc. <> Brian Hutchings 14-JUN-1999 11:08 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us hey, Holy Universe -- where'd you here, this ?!? thus quoth: about the upcoming vacancy to Geodesic as well. as for the latrine-duty at est, I thought that was integral to graduation; how'd you get out of it? --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:47:37 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: errata <> Brian Hutchings 14-JUN-1999 11:47 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us SUBJECT: Re: [Q-P] This Noble Land MESSAGE from =r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.U 14-JUN-19 10:39 <> Brian Hutchings 11-JUN-1999 14:15 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us <> Brian Hutchings 08-JUN-1999 11:28 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us mister James, it is not quite true that it was not the case, then. then, the predominating corporate power was the de-facto goment of the British Empire, the East India Co., with which we fought no less than 3 major wars. unfortunaely, TJ's noble, agrarian ideals (a-hem) almost put us back into a subserviantttttttt colonial role, again after his 2 terms, as he essentially admitted in retrospect (see "The Confederate Legacy o'TJ" in *Fidelio* magazine of about 2ya). this was basically the reason why, the "federalists" won-out over the antifederalists, to win the ongioing conflict with the bloody crown. nowadays, as reflected in the latest report from the Bank of Intl.Settlements (the central bank of central banks), the City (of London, financial dystrict) is, still, the center of market transaction & cartel control, over Wall Street etc. (know thine enemy .-) thus quoth: We don't have a choice between government and no government. We have a choice between government and corporatate slavery. To oppose government and not to oppose corporate power is suicide. http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm --The Duke of Oil! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:18:36 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: More historical narrative re BFI etc. In-Reply-To: <199906141808.LAA28399@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:08:09 -0700, you wrote: ><> Brian Hutchings 14-JUN-1999 11:08 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > hey, Holy Universe -- where'd you here, this ?!? > > thus quoth: > about the upcoming vacancy to Geodesic as well. I just checked the archives and see that I spoke trully. Here's an old post, cut and pasted. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:29:01 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works =46rom: Kirby Urner Subject: BFI webmaster position Comments: To: afsnyder@aol.com Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com MEMORANDUM =20 TO: Allegra Fuller Snyder =46R: Kirby Urner, 4D Solutions RE: BFI webmaster position =20 You may have seen from my memo to Jackie that I'm resigning from my position as volunteer BFI webmaster effective Dec 21 (Winter Solstice) latest. =20 This is not a move taken out of any disagreement I'm imagining, although I'm aware that old issues remain unresolved (nothing new on that front). Rather, I'm thinking the BFI webmaster position is a 'space' that I've created, and in leaving the position vacant, I'm creating the potential for a succession of creative souls to make a mark in the record. No reason for me to hog the limelight. And part of my training is to demonstrate that I have the ability to turn over positions, to *create* vacancies as well as to occupy them. So this is a good exercise for me. =20 I appreciate the opportunity that this association with BFI has afforded. Participating in breaking new ground on the internet in collaboration with Rich and Kiyoshi was a good experience. Many others lent a hand, including Mark Kelly and, of course, yourself. =20 My hope is that BFI will continue to grow and mature as an institution. For this to happen, my feeling is its public sector identity has to continue to shape itself independently of whatever EBF is about and vice versa. 'Public identity' is very much codeterminant with what BFI looks like on the internet via bfi.org, so the webmaster position is important, (the way I see it) if BFI is to continue in the promising new direction we've taken it of late (cite most recent TrimTab). =20 As a non-EBF person, I made a new beginning aimed at making BFI something in its own right, not merely a vehicle for EBF. This is something no one closely affiliated with EBF is in a position to do, despite whatever honesty, integrity and dedication to Bucky's work they bring to the effort. From my viewpoint, I'd say the webmaster's position should remain non-EBF, i.e. not open to family members or individuals having any financial dealings with the family in the past. This would be in the best interests of the public sector, which BFI is committed to serving. =20 Some of the text I filed via Synergetics-L, including this memo, is designed to clarify the BFI/EBF distinction, and perhaps will serve as a guide for future webmasters, scholars, researchers into the record. =20 I am not reducing my committment to my design science strategies nor fading from the picture. I hope we will continue to collaborate in various ways, although 4D Solutions, my private sector business, will need to have the EBF/BFI picture made crystal clear before doing any further image-building for BFI. 4D Solutions works to serve the public sector, which means a lot of transparency, both in bookkeeping and in command and control (logistics). =20 Given the importance of what we're up to, and the relative insignificance of whatever soap operas surround BFI, I'm confidant that we'll be seeing eye-to-eye on many occasions as we pioneer this design science era we appear to be entering (really, the signals I'm reading are saying 'all systems go'). =20 I'm excited about the future and have every reason to expect interesting and engaging work ahead for both you and your loved ones. There's no 'you or me' operative here, just design challenges and concommitant frustrations as we adjust to new, and we hope more reliable systems. As ever. =20 Yours, =20 Kirby Urner 1st BFI Webmaster =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Note: EBF =3D Estate of Buckminster Fuller, which is distinct from BFI. You'll notice that 'Synergetics' is on the web with permission of EBF, not BFI (which doesn't own the copy- right to this asset). EBF is able to donate copyrights to BFI and take a tax-write off for so donating to charity (and has done so). > > as for the latrine-duty at est, I thought that was integral > to graduation; how'd you get out of it? My website narrative talks about my performing outside security detail. The training room was never locked and people were not physically constrained in any way. The purpose of outside=20 security was to keep people with no business in the training room from wandering in. People did have an agreement, after a full disclosure of what they might experience during the training, to follow instructions, and to confine their eating and restroom breaks to the announced=20 break times -- unless needing to do so at will (usually for=20 medical reasons) in which case the back row was set aside as=20 the "bathroom at will" row. People in this row were listed by=20 name, so that people returning to the training room could be=20 readmitted without hassle -- outside security simply compared=20 the nametag to the list. When working with up to 350 people=20 at a time, you need lists and procedures like this, to prevent confusion. In any case, I was not "guarding the bathrooms". At the New York Area Center, the center had half the building and a bus terminal had the other (our half was carpeted and corporate=20 -- didn't look at all like a bus station, but did have this wide concourse to the front doors, which some wandering bus person might decide to use). We had signs posted when a=20 training was in progress to steer people away from trying to enter the wrong doors (we had two sets of doors to the training room from the concourse -- probably we locked the set closest to the bus station sometimes). The bathrooms=20 were across the concourse from the training room doors and were not "guarded". Anyone could use them, whether a trainee or not. More than you needed or wanted to know, I'm sure. Kirby > --The Duke of Oil! > http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:29:33 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: More historical narrative re BFI etc. Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby Urner wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 06:24:30 +0000, you wrote: > > >Kirby Urner wrote: > > > >> [Note to GEODESIC readers: I'm archiving two longish posts to > >> this list -- and not Synergetics-L -- > > > >You see this was posted on the syn-list just last week or so and isspamming in > >that case. > > You're right, I did post that first one to my list awhile back (though > not the second). It's not spamming though, but cross-posting, because > this curriculum design stuff is equally relevant over there, is a > continuation of a long thread on that list. > > >I did not spam the syn list for a bus company > >I was talking with a Mr. Rose about how he could get money for his > >project to get behind Fuller. > > You were soliciting for anyone (not Mr. Rose in particular) to buy > this property or license, for some thousands of dollars (completely > inappropriate for Syn-L to be used this way). If you were just > into helping Mr. Rose, you should have communicated with him > privately. That is not true, I sold the dome and the bus company already. When you told me that I was spaming, i did not even know what spaming is. I have only had a computer for 6 months. You are untruthful about so much I do not want to take out band width to this list to argue, I want to talk bucky, and state fact that you are the darth vader of the Fuller Force. You will fill this list with arguments just to get people to come and see your list. That is your game. This is a gurilla scam spam of yours. It is not going past my head. Please defend your own list. I can just say what I think to new commers so they know ahead of time that your game. I do not want to fill this list with any more than a first warning. You have consistantly spamed this list for your list with stuff off your list. You kicked me off your list because I proved to you that synergetic geometry has orbit at it's core not models in G force earth gravity inwhich you did not understand that all is going the speed of light in precession as a more primitive state of synergetics than modeling inwhich you are hung up on, (out) to be factual. You tell me to get a life. What I have done in the last 2 weeks makes your look like it is standing still, I tiled a friends home for 660 square feet working from 5AM to 7:30 Pm each day for 2 weeks, I sold the bus company and the dome to a person that will make a park out of it. SO your life is much like a misquito to me, and darth vader to others agains Fuller. Allegra will not even listen to your name being pronounced. SO go away to your own list and argue with your followers. This is my opinion. I am only speaking for me not the list. I want to talk bucky, not your life of deceit to get power. I am sorry to the list, to make these points but some one has to put you in your place and bucky would have loved that I do. Get lost. Michael S. Mitchell. please talk about something else/ I will only say what I have to say about you when someone may not have heard or understand who and what you represent. Thank you for your time all. http://home.earthlink/net/~syntrivity/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:33:00 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: More historical narrative re BFI etc. Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby Urner wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 06:24:30 +0000, you wrote: > > >Kirby Urner wrote: > > > >> [Note to GEODESIC readers: I'm archiving two longish posts to > >> this list -- and not Synergetics-L -- > > > >You see this was posted on the syn-list just last week or so and isspamming in > >that case. > > You're right, I did post that first one to my list awhile back (though > not the second). It's not spamming though, but cross-posting, because > this curriculum design stuff is equally relevant over there, is a > continuation of a long thread on that list. > > >I did not spam the syn list for a bus company > >I was talking with a Mr. Rose about how he could get money for his > >project to get behind Fuller. > > You were soliciting for anyone (not Mr. Rose in particular) to buy > this property or license, for some thousands of dollars (completely > inappropriate for Syn-L to be used this way). If you were just > into helping Mr. Rose, you should have communicated with him > privately. That is not true, I sold the dome and the bus company already. When you told me that I was spaming, i did not even know what spaming is. I have only had a computer for 6 months. You are untruthful about so much I do not want to take out band width to this list to argue, I want to talk bucky, and state fact that you are the darth vader of the Fuller Force. You will fill this list with arguments just to get people to come and see your list. That is your game. This is a guerilla scam spam of yours. It is not going past my head. Please defend your own list. I can just say what I think to new comers so they know ahead of time that your game. I do not want to fill this list with any more than a first warning. You have consistently spamed this list for your list with stuff off your list. You kicked me off your list because I proved to you that synergetic geometry has orbit at it's core not models in G force earth gravity inwhich you did not understand that all is going the speed of light in precession as a more primitive state of synergetics than modeling inwhich you are hung up on, (out) to be factual. You tell me to get a life. What I have done in the last 2 weeks makes your look like it is standing still, I tiled a friends home for 660 square feet working from 5AM to 7:30 Pm each day for 2 weeks, I sold the bus company and the dome to a person that will make a park out of it. SO your life is much like a mosquito to me, and darth vader to others against Fuller. Allegra will not even listen to your name being pronounced. SO go away to your own list and argue with your followers. This is my opinion. I am only speaking for me not the list. I want to talk bucky, not your life of deceit to get power. I am sorry to the list, to make these points but some one has to put you in your place and bucky would have loved that I do. Get lost. Michael S. Mitchell. please talk about something else/ I will only say what I have to say about you when someone may not have heard or understand who and what you represent. Thank you for your time all. http://home.earthlink/net/~syntrivity/index.html If you want to argue let me back on the syn-list where this should be. You call me a spammer, FQU Your an idiot. I close this string. Lets talk bucky. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:52:49 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: More historical narrative re BFI etc. In-Reply-To: <3764F5AD.CCCF9E14@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:29:33 +0000, you wrote: >> You were soliciting for anyone (not Mr. Rose in particular) to buy >> this property or license, for some thousands of dollars (completely >> inappropriate for Syn-L to be used this way). If you were just >> into helping Mr. Rose, you should have communicated with him >> privately. > >That is not true, I sold the dome and the bus company already. The fact that you've sold the dome and bus company by now is=20 completely irrelevant. Here's what you wrote at the time: =3D=3D=3D=3D Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:53:36 +0000 =46rom: "Michael S. Mitchell" To: "synergetics-l" Subject: [synergetics-l] Re: [NECSI] Complexity-informed views=20 of the growth of knowledge To make things more complex is to make it more difficult.=20 People get paid to do this with information a lot.=20 When the clock sweeps out one hour it has gone through=20 the area sweep out that all events are made of micro to macro.=20 Precession is all there is all other events are made of it=20 principlicly. I am very busy and enjoy thinking about it=20 but am busy now making out a bus license for the puc=20 here in california to go to disneyland from lax airport.=20 It is a license that has 500,ooo passengers as a market=20 each year and it is for sale if you know anyone that wants=20 to make a lot of money with an investment of 300K. It will=20 start out of the red in 6 months and make about 1 million a year=20 after that. Michael S. Mitchell=20 <> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Note what you wrote: "it is for sale if you know anyone that=20 wants to make a lot of money with an investment of 300K." I underline the word "anyone". Nothing about helping Mr. Rose=20 (and if he had 300K to invest, I don't see why he'd need your=20 help in the first place). I told you this was spamming: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To: "synergetics-l" =46rom: Kirby Urner Subject: [synergetics-l] Re: [NECSI] Complexity-informed views of =20 the growth of knowledge >It is a license that has 500,ooo passengers as a market=20 >each year and it is for sale if you know anyone that wants=20 >to make a lot of money with an investment of 300K. It will=20 >start out of the red in 6 months and make about 1 million a year=20 >after that. Michael S. Mitchell=20 Please do not use this list to advertise your non-synergetics=20 related moneymaking schemes. This is grounds for having your membership terminated. Kirby =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D And you wrote back: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 20:16:57 +0000 =46rom: "Michael S. Mitchell" To: "synergetics-l" Subject: [synergetics-l] Re: [NECSI] Complexity-informed views=20 of the growth of knowledge I would use the money for a world game and give some to the bfi. Everything I do is synergetics, if you wish to terminate me for that it is in your soul to terminate synergetics. I will not use your list to offer to get money for my projects, and I will try and only lurk if possible. I am very sorry to pull your chain, Understood. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Note: nothing about helping Mr. Rose. That's new justification, something you made up since the event. As usual, you twist your story however it suits you, nevermind the historical record. And I didn't terminate your membership at that time (should have). I cut you some slack (mistake). >When you told me that I was spaming, i did not even know what >spaming is. I have only had a computer for 6 months. That's right, I told you you were spamming, which you were. >You are untruthful about so much I do not want to take out >band width to this list to argue, I want to talk bucky, and state >fact that you are the darth vader of the Fuller Force. So how am I being untruthful again? I go into so much detail here to remind you that I have access to the archives on both of these lists, just as you do. If you accuse me of being untruthful, you should be ready to back it up. From my=20 viewpoint, you've just changed your story ("helping Mr. Rose"), as you often do. The issue seems to be credibility and you've made it your business to attack mine. Are your attacks justified=20 in any way whatsoever? By leaving this audit trail in the archives,=20 we'll let others be the judge of that, won't we? >You will fill this list with arguments just to get people >to come and see your list. That is your game. This is Of course. That's standard practice. Go to any listserv or newsgroup and you're likely to find people inviting other people to join this or that list or forum, or to come look at this or that website. You make this sound like some=20 sneaky, odious practice. It's not. I'm not pushing a "get rich quick" scheme, sending chain=20 letters, or trying to sell a $300K license or anything. I'm posting about synergetics and inviting people to subscribe to my Synergetics-L. So? I have that right to advertise=20 the existence of my list and will continue doing it, without=20 apology. There's no scam or spam in this picture. I have=20 a hard time accepting that you're blind to this distinction. >a gurilla scam spam of yours. It is not going past my head. >Please defend your own list. I can just say what I think to >new commers so they know ahead of time that your game. And so can I. I'm happy to defend my reputation against the likes of you. You're no challenge at all, make it very easy in fact. Nothing like '60 Minutes' is going on here. >I do not want to fill this list with any more than a first warning. You've already filled this list with page after page of your=20 slanderous stuff. I let some of it go by unchallenged. But every now and then I'm going to jump in and expose you for=20 what you are. >You have consistantly spamed this list for your list with stuff >off your list. You kicked me off your list because I proved to you That's not spam. Get it? >that synergetic geometry has orbit at it's core not models in G force >earth gravity inwhich you did not understand that all is going the speed >of light in precession as a more primitive state of synergetics than = modeling >inwhich you are hung up on, (out) to be factual. Precession includes breaking out of orbit and heading off to some new orbit in a completely remote system. That's the part you don't get. Equating precession with orbital behavior is to dumb down the text of Fuller's masterwork, as I've already said many times. > You tell me to get a life. What I have done in the last 2 weeks = makes your >look like it is standing still, I tiled a friends home for 660 square = feet >working from 5AM to 7:30 Pm each day for 2 weeks, I sold the bus company >and the dome to a person that will make a park out of it. SO your life >is much like a misquito to me, and darth vader to others agains Fuller. I hope the dome park eventually comes to something. All the credit will go to Bill Perk and friends in my book. You were a bottleneck, holding on to the dome for years and years, in greedy, moneygrubbing fashion. I doubt it was worth the effort, trying to deal with you. But if Bill Perk had the stomach for it, more power to him. He obviously has grand hopes for his idea and needed to withstand a lot of abuse and disgraceful behavior on your part in order to make them real. >Allegra will not even listen to your name being pronounced. Puts her fingers in her ears? I suggest you refrain from pronouncing it around her then, as she might be holding something valuable at=20 the time. >SO go away to your own list and argue with your followers. >This is my opinion. I am only speaking for me not the list. That's right, only speaking for yourself. I plan to ignore your wishes,=20 as I do not consider you an adviser, peer or collaborator on any plane=20 of existence. >I want to talk bucky, not your life of deceit to get power. These are the accusations you'll have to live with. You haven't backed=20 them up. You've made a fool of yourself at best. However, I acknowledge that I do have some power and "weightiness" in the Fuller School. This is because of a lot of hard work on my part. I haven't been wasting my time. There's work to be done and I'm not afraid to tackle some of it. Bucky knew I was working hard even before he died in 1983. I think I've come through for him in ways he'd respect and admire (even if in other ways I may have been a disappointment, and even if Allegra has listed me as a liability=20 -- I still have respect for her, but not for any "burden" she may=20 feel she has to carry (neither "burden" nor "guilt" equate with=20 responsibility, according to a training we both experienced)). >I am sorry to the list, to make these points >but some one has to put you in your place and bucky >would have loved that I do. Get lost. How noble and heroic of you (chuckle). >Michael S. Mitchell. please talk about something else/ >I will only say what I have to say about you when >someone may not have heard or understand who and >what you represent. Thank you for your time all. >http://home.earthlink/net/~syntrivity/index.html You forgot to add the usual suck-up part where you say you love me and want to be my friend (guffaw) if I'll just apologize to everyone and=20 stay in my place and blah blah blah. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:10:57 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: More historical narrative re BFI etc. Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby Urner wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:29:33 +0000, you wrote: > > >> You were soliciting for anyone (not Mr. Rose in particular) to buy > >> this property or license, for some thousands of dollars (completely > >> inappropriate for Syn-L to be used this way). If you were just > >> into helping Mr. Rose, you should have communicated with him > >> privately. the post before this Mr. Rose solicited money for his project, he shouldthen be kicked out as well. Look for yourself. I was saying to him he could go to anyone and find me a buyer and I would reward him after he solicited me to help fund his foundation. You have the post on file. I do not. You would block me anyway from the synlist to get it. You are a weasel and I do not want to argue to make you flame this list to go to yours. I am not interested in flaming only that you stay out of fighting with the bfi and me. Please stop your lies and go away from talking with me. I am only interested in others to help them see Fuller for the amazing person he was and that you are not. You as you say have a lot of weight in the fuller community because people that know the truth about you did not have computers. Now they do and you are like a rabbit with the lights turned on it in the night. Keep your weight away from the family you have no right to act like you can have the same axis they have with bucky. You are greedy and power hungry for new people to scam into thinking you are someone big. You are the most pathetic of all, a class act scam artist for selfishness from Princeton. You are marginal at best in my book with Fuller and you just do not have the heart to pull off what you are trying to do. You do not know when you are wrong and even worse if you were you would not tell the truth about it. Your future is doomed. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:24:53 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: What does a Fuller Scholar do? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A Fuller scholar does not look up or down on anyone only on the information and experience that shows data for interest for design. No one has more integrity than anyone else no matter what they do. It is always the same. The universe put them here. What does the most with the least has the most truth in it. Technology is anything that can happen that is allowed. You must make mistakes and record them and not do them twice. Tells the truth in the most economical way. Bucky never got past the Milton Academy. I have been there when I was manager of a band that played there in 1967 called the Long Wave Radio. This band was from Carbondale. This is the curriculum for synergetics not what others seem to say that should be told by them and no one else knows it but them. Fuller is not that specialized. Being comprehensive means that we all are equal in the universe and we all have designs that others do not. So we must all have equal integrity to start with to work together. The truth is the same for all of us we must try and understand it. The most truthful is that inwhich unites us all the most. For truth is happiness. (c) 1999 MSM ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:15:34 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: More historical narrative re BFI etc. In-Reply-To: <37652991.5101FA98@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:10:57 +0000, you wrote: >Kirby Urner wrote: > >> On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:29:33 +0000, you wrote: >> >> >> You were soliciting for anyone (not Mr. Rose in particular) to buy >> >> this property or license, for some thousands of dollars (completely >> >> inappropriate for Syn-L to be used this way). If you were just >> >> into helping Mr. Rose, you should have communicated with him >> >> privately. > >the post before this Mr. Rose solicited money for his project, he = shouldthen be >kicked out as well. Look for yourself. I was saying to him >he could go to anyone and find me a buyer and I would reward him >after he solicited me to help fund his foundation. I've already shared your post. I find no indication that this was your plan (hair-brained scheme if so -- finding someone who just=20 happens to have 300K to invest in a bus company in order to get a=20 kick-back from you sounds far-fetched at best). =20 I've looked at the post before this from Mr. Rose, and the one=20 before that. Where is he soliciting money for his project? =20 His March 9 post quotes another typical solicitation from you: >I am selling bucky and anne's dome home in carbondale=20 >my highest bid now is 54K. I am selling it in a week.=20 >Do I have any more bids from this list?=20 >e-mail me.=20 >http://home.earthlink.net/~syntrivity/index.html=20 Indeed, you're contradicting yourself, as you said to the list at the time that your plan was to donate a percentage to BFI and World Game. I guess you expected Mr. Rose to be a mind=20 reader. >You have the post on file. I do not. >You would block me anyway from the synlist to get it. Wrong again. As I've posted over and over (you never seem=20 to grok), the Synergetics-L list has a public domain web=20 interface, just like GEODESIC. You don't need to be a=20 subscriber to read the posts I've been quoting. Anyone here who cares (I doubt many if any do) can go back and verify=20 the whole history. There's a link to both the GEODESIC and Syn-L archives from my http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/links.html I would have no way of knowing if you were consulting the=20 Syn-L archives through the web interface. How long do you=20 plan to use your ignorance about the internet to justify=20 your baseless accusations about how I would block you at every turn. No, you're just lazy, preferring your fantasy reality to the verifiable, omnitriangulated truth. >You are a weasel and I do not want to argue to make you >flame this list to go to yours. I am not interested in flaming >only that you stay out of fighting with the bfi and me. I'm not fighting with BFI. I've contributed to BFI in the past (time/energy and skills -- and of course purchases). BFI has nothing I want or need. Except for what you do to=20 keep this flame war alive, I don't write, talk or think much about the BFI. It's pretty much irrelevant to me, as are=20 you, when you're not making it your business to attack me in a public forum. >Please stop your lies and go away from talking with me. I will rebut your slander and untruths about me as long as you see fit to make a permanent record of them in the GEODESIC archives. I owe it to future readers to show them where this altercation comes from, in case I find out you've been=20 bad-mouthing me behind my back. >I am only interested in others to help them see Fuller >for the amazing person he was and that you are not. Stick with the first part of you mission and you'll be fine. Attack me in public and expect me to respond in kind. >You as you say have a lot of weight in the fuller community >because people that know the truth about you did not have >computers. Now they do and you are like a rabbit with the lights >turned on it in the night. Keep your weight away from the family >you have no right to act like you can have the same axis they have >with bucky. You are greedy and power hungry for new people >to scam into thinking you are someone big. You are the most pathetic of >all, a class act scam artist for selfishness from Princeton. There's a large community of people doing interesting things=20 around Fuller's work. Because a lot of us had computers, and because the internet really got of the ground in a big way=20 since Fuller died in 1983, it was possible for us to find=20 each other and work together. These listservs are a manifestation of that activity. A fairly smoothly operating collaborative=20 atmosphere was the norm around here until you showed up and=20 decided I was too big for my britches. Ever since, this list especially (and Synergetics-L to a lesser degree) have been treated to periodic flame wars between you and I. This is=20 unfortunate. But again, I don't see why I should let you get away with turning your ignorance and paranoia into a campaign against me, especially after all the work I've put in to making a contribution (nothing compared to Bucky's perhaps, but something I'm fairly proud of nonetheless -- why should I let your spoil my fun?). >You are marginal at best in my book with Fuller and you just >do not have the heart to pull off what you are trying to do. Whatever. I'm not reading your book and don't care what your assessment is. I think you've barely scratched the surface of what I've placed in the public domain as it is. You're not=20 really in a position to judge. And if you are, why not right a sort of review instead of attacking me ad hominem in person on Geodesic. Put up a web page about how crummy my synergetics curriculum is, or how I don't understand precession. Contribute to the scholary debate. But don't perpetuate a mindless=20 flame war which just makes you look stupid (and me too, to=20 the extent I overindulge in keeping you from trashing my=20 reputation in public -- there's such a thing as overkill I=20 realize). >You do not know when you are wrong and even worse if you >were you would not tell the truth about it. Your future is doomed. I have essentially the same reading of your text. So call it even and shut up about me OK? Don't attack me in public. Stop. I demand it. Or I'll keep responding. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:55:18 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Anderson Subject: a new paper To break up some of the more philosophic discussions, and interpersonal arguments, I've released a new paper on my site, Connecting Superprojected and Subprojected Geodesic Patches http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/connecting It contains a technique and the mathematics for joining puffy, puckered, or normally projected geodesic patches in the same structure, and has some pictures of a tetrahedrally-lobed octahedral geodesic and some VRML renderings. Send your comments along - I'm interested... - Dave http://w3.one.net/~monkey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 02:17:40 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: GLOBAL ENERGY GRID MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The Global Energy Grid is the World Game's highest priority objective." RBF http://www.geni.org/geni97/graphics/dymax.jpg Joe S Moore mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:15:08 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: More historical narrative re BFI etc. Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You have made your point it is under your hat. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:38:33 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Riversong Subject: Re: A few words on list etiquette... In-Reply-To: <19990613185217.D18566@bootstrap.sculptors.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You may have noticed that i generally don't participate in these discussions. I'm reminded of the old Mr. Natural cartoon, where he says, "Don't you people realize that you're both a couple of idiots?" Mr. Urner stated some time ago that he would have nothing to do with me because of my religion. I don't communicate directly with him at all. Some of his recent posts have included language which does not readily communicate mathematical principles, and if i were communicating with him, we could potentially clear up that problem. As for Mr. Mitchell, i met him at his place in December. His sincerity is unquestionable, but this tendency to keep firing on his main opponent in a less than coherent manner is actually backfiring. So in the midst of this recurring flame war, i appeal to all list members, to please ignore the conflict. Instead, let's concentrate on what is most needed at this time -- a sensible and workable gradient which would allow students at all levels to effectively apply Fuller's principles. At 06:52 PM 6/13/99 -0700, you wrote: > Umm. I hate to sound all heavy-handed, here, Michael, but as the >founder and background maintainer of this list, I feel that you may have >just stepped on my toes a bit, so I feel the need to post. > If you have something to say about a person that you don't like, >it's generally better to say it privately to that person than to air your >dirty laundry for all to see. That just leads to embarassing situations. > Kirby has been a long-time member and contributor to this >community, and despite your recent quarrels, I feel that many of his posts >over the years have been on-target, and relevant to discussions here. > If YOU, PERSONALLY don't like Kirby's posts, then YOU, PERSONALLY >should set up some filter rules or a kill file and delete all posts from >him, so that your eyes aren't troubled by his words. But PLEASE don't go >around defaming him to newcomers to the list. > > This list is a forum for people to discuss Bucky, his works, and >all things related to geodesics and Design Science. It's not alt.flame, and >if you want to flame someone, then you should probably post the flames over >there. > > As list owner, I'd have to say that you're not authorized to extend >official welcome or unwelcome status to anyone on the list. I think you've >made your personal viewpoint quite clear, but please don't speak in my >capacity as to who's welcome on this list. As far as I'm concerned, >everyone's welcome here who wants to talk about the aforementioned topics >of Bucky, geodesics, Design Science, etc. > The only people I feel are "officially" unwelcome on this list are >SPAMmers trying to sell unrelated cruft here, taking up everyone's >bandwidth and time. > > Please let the feuding drop, set up your appropriate filters, and >let's try to re-focus on relevant discussion topics. > > Thanks. > > >-- >Pat -- Michael Riversong P.O. Box 2775 * Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 Design Ecology -- Unifying music and education, to create a living environment that works for you. web address: http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong (307)635-0900 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:52:39 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Riversong Subject: Definitions Needed In-Reply-To: <376a0a71.74451484@alumni.princeton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In order to clarify recent advances in teaching math, definitions for the following terms would be extremely h*elpful. Reimann sum CBL indexed arrays algorithm (i know this, but most people don't) non-numeric operators elastic interval geometry Gaussian distribution In fact, i wonder if there is some standard source for definitions in this field. I own a copy of the Penguin Dictionary of Mathematics, and it is worse than useless, since most key definitions contain words which the average student doesn't understand either. I was once referred by a list member to a volume called the Synergetics Dictionary, but that has long been out of print and cannot be accessed easily by any student. Perhaps even those who are sworn enemies on this list can get together and build a new dictionary arranged in a gradient form, which would assist struggling students. It is always best if a workable gradient can be worked out for any subject. This gradient should definitely include three-dimensional demos. The Povray program looks like a good step in the right direction here. Of course what i'd really like to see, is a computer system that creates three-dimensional holograms in space, and if i had unlimited funds and time available, that's precisely what i'd be developing right now. -- Michael Riversong P.O. Box 2775 * Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 Design Ecology -- Unifying music and education, to create a living environment that works for you. web address: http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong (307)635-0900 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 18:14:48 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Definitions Needed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Riversong wrote: > In order to clarify recent advances in teaching math, definitions for the > following terms would be extremely h*elpful. > > Reimann sum > CBL > indexed arrays > algorithm (i know this, but most people don't) > non-numeric operators > elastic interval geometry > Gaussian distribution the question may be are they relevant at all.How can they be restated in less specific origin for collaboration within themselves. I am stupid I admit, and an idiot. But Bucky would want someone to be as stupid as I to point out the pompous arrogance of some pickled in Princeton attitudes that make mew comers think they know it all. Bucky would not stand for his family to be assaulted as they have. There have been other times when the office was dismantled and even with marriages in the office like this last time. The people get involved and the tail begins to wag the dog. I am friendly with Darth Urner when he talks about awareness but he always draws attention from the integrity of the Fuller Force that just makes me sick. I am sorry to him and to all with these lists, but to learn what Fuller was about takes great discipline not of nicety niece but of truth and love. Kirby does not have the love and truth that he feels he deserves, this is my point and to stay off the toes of the family it is like walking on the grave of an indian to me. I will not have to do anymore flaming, which in truth he states, and many posts show his arrogance and rudeness that have over the past months I have not saved, I can not lower myself to his level. He should have been OJ's lawyer. I apologize to everyone and to him as well for I am a unitivitist and that means you have to collaborate with all events as one. So be it. Thank you Mr. Rivrer Song you have brought me back to my senses. His insults I will ignore as much as I can. Michael S. Mitchell I have to find out how to make these filters work. By the way he has only had 20 posts on syn list since I left one month ago. I have been congratulated for being kicked off by many. I apologize to mr. Urner and if he is a gentleman he will let me back on the synlist so I can talk synergetics and teach him a thing or two. If not he divides and that is against the universe. Karma will tell us all what has happened I am willing to take mine for what I have represented is the integrity of R. Buckminster Fuller. I am thinking of starting a clean list for Fuller so the power of insults can be lessened. When someone runs the list and is against the Buckminster Fuller Institute he is a very weighted object. I forgive him for he knows not what he does. I am sorry to have made the truth so obvious, but I could not help myself for Bucky and Anne's sake. After bucky held his first daughter in his hands and she died, I do not like to see his only daughter slandered the way Mr. Urner has. It is a lack of understanding and others can not see the way Allegra does. She sees with mystic eyes from a place they do not understand, and then they rebel in youthful arrogance, this has happened with bucky at the office in Carbondale as well. Bucky would say, when your in a storm you take the sail away so no wind can blow it and you have control. This is what happened with everyone trying to say that the family is not part of the archive and money should not be spent on the family as archival artifacts. Also that the archive should be given to the Henry Ford Museum. Bucky would have given it to them himself he wanted that. It is no one's business but the people that bucky appointed to do what ever and it others can't stand what they do with it. They should think of why bucky did what he did not attack them for what he did for humanity. Gestation rates flow slow with big events and haste makes waste so keep your britches on and wait for the ship to come in all you big shots out there who think they know everything. Now that the dome has been sold to make a park in the year 2000 you can bet that the universe is going to get into high gear with the Fuller force. I only ask that there be more harmony and I wanted to kick some sharp edges off the ball around here, so when we get rolling some of these know it all's will be a little more humble. See Ya! By the way thanks hutch, and mike - for little support, jedi's. Mr. Moore still has the best site. Bonnie has the best rap. Amy the best book on synergetics for the masses, Bill Perk has the best dome in the world, and Michael Riversong has the best song about John Lennon in the world. Geni has the best conventions and did help a lot to get a lot of people together, so Peter I am sorry to you as well. I just think some times or I guess if people go for it, what the hell. Sorry Pete. For the most part Fuller is really growing and I am sure stupid Kirby has a lot to do with it on the web. So Kirby I am sorry, but get some love in your heart for the bfi, or die. the bfi is growing give it a chance would ya! I am going to work on the audio tapes and try and put them on the net with a donation, if I can find out how. They are awesome artifacts for humanity to learn by while doing house or dome work, in the car, and jogging. over and out :-) > -- Michael Riversong > P.O. Box 2775 * Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 > Design Ecology -- Unifying music and education, to create a living > environment that works for you. > web address: http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong > (307)635-0900 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:31:18 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: prkosuth Subject: Re: A few words on list etiquette... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990615103833.00825740@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > So in the midst of this recurring flame war, i appeal to all list members, > to please ignore the conflict. Instead, let's concentrate on what is most > needed at this time -- a sensible and workable gradient which would allow > students at all levels to effectively apply Fuller's principles. > I concur .... Lets start talking about what is really cool and relevant to us about Fuller .. I for one like how he appeals to students of all ages .. when I list his accomplishments, outputs, close calls (The shores of Lake Michigan) to my students they are in awe ... Fullers ability to tie it all together is what excites me ... What excites you ?? Paul Kosuth prkosuth@midwest.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:35:07 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: prkosuth Subject: Re: Definitions Needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990615105239.00826870@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > In order to clarify recent advances in teaching math, definitions for the > following terms would be extremely h*elpful. > > Reimann sum > CBL if you are refering to current technology, then it is Calculator Based Laborartory .. pretty cool things that attach to graphing calcs, execute programs and collect data via various probes (temp, light intensity, motion, humidity, etc) A good way to get kids involved with data collection and analysis .. pretty undestructable .. easy to use, lots of programs available ... Paul prkosuth@midwest.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 06:58:52 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: A few words on list etiquette... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit prkosuth wrote: . Fullers ability to tie it all together is what > excites me ... > > What excites you ?? > > Paul Kosuth > prkosuth@midwest.net i hope that if I respond it is not taken as a leg up on the you know what war.I cannot help to say yeH!, this is Fuller force in the simple terms of truth. To tie things together. To unite, this what comprehensive thinking does. Fuller is like going to the top of the hill and seeing the whole town at once or from a plane, Comprehensive Anticipatorial Design Science is what he called it from his early days from the navy and in 1967 in Carbondale he invented a unit term for this as World Game because the planet was a finite ecology system to some degree for human habitat as a symbiotic unit. World Game is a symbiotic design science tool on a global level as a comprehensive view for all mankind to invest their resources to make it work for all humans a once and in a way make heaven on earth. The dome, the bathroom, the car, the map, were all different designs to make this more possible. Doing more with less with resources, like if humans do not need war, then they have enough to make heaven on earth with the war resources. The tie together is the most exciting of all. We can all tie together and make this happen. The electric system he invented as an artifact to make the one world electric system would make the most electricity on a global level. This is a great idea, but if know one knows about it the highest priority is to tell them, not just about the electric system, but that they even have a chance to make the world work. If more people knew this the news would pick it up and the movie people and the music people. So in order to make the world work the computer becomes the main tool to do the highest priority by being able to tell more people about it so that they can vote for it when they have a chance too. It is not on the ballot so we have a long way to go. We need a FULLER Party. My point is that He was not political, but the center ball of a system is neutral, we need to pack around him in a big way this means a political party. This is what I think as synergy is that in which no one expects. Just ideas. thank you MSM. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:01:18 -0700 Reply-To: oregon@domes.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome Subject: Re: building my own dome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To all: I've been involved with a lot of dome projects, and talked with a lot of people with older domes, and not once have I heard of people with problems with rotting or collapsing riser walls. Riser walls are engineered structures and should not give you any problems. They do add substantially to the cost per square foot of the home, though, as they add a great deal of interior and exterior surface area which needs to be finished. -- Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. www.domes.com "Michael S. Mitchell" wrote: > You may build a 39 1/2 foot dome like bucky did in april, 1961 > out of 4/8 plywood. The hex and pent side of the triangle is 7' 11 1/2 ". > This will give you the most surface and volume of the amount of plywood. > It was the pease dome. I suggest not to put it on a riser for they rot and > are basically squares that collapse after while if they get water damage. > I would use hot water heat in the slab floor and tile the floor. > heat the floor with the water heater and a pump that recycles the water > while the water heater is on all the time. The thermostat just > turns on the pump when it gets the slab cold. I would use Epoxy > west systems over the door hangs and they will not leak. > John Mc Hale had the blue print in his book of bucky's dome > in Carbondale. I owned it and am now in the process of turning > it over the be used as a park in the next year or so. > > Walter Delorey wrote: > > > ** To reply in e-mail, remove ".taqpej" from address ** > > > > Built my own dome in N.S. in 1975. If you post asking for "how to build > > a dome" books you might find domebookII or something newer. > > > > Keep your radius 15ft or less to get max triangles from 4x8 sheets > > of plywood. Prepare to shingle for longer than it takes to build the dome. > > Build at least a 4ft knee wall (my dome (30ft) is on a 40ftx8ft base). > > Expect everyone within fifty miles to visit on sunday afternoon. > > Good luck, walt > > -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:52:44 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: prkosuth Subject: Re: A few words on list etiquette... In-Reply-To: <37674B2C.B41A157E@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > prkosuth wrote: . Fullers ability to tie it all together is what > > > excites me ... > > > > What excites you ?? > > > > Paul Kosuth > > prkosuth@midwest.net Michael wrote: > > i hope that if I respond it is not taken as a leg up on the you know what > war.I > cannot help to say yeH!, this is Fuller force in the simple terms of truth. > > To tie things together. To unite, this what comprehensive thinking does. is the cool thing: to rty to tie and untie at the same time ? The challenge seems to be to untie from the rigid compartmentalized thinking (science as departments, politics) and then to use the THINKING and ARTIFACTS of Fuller to then tie up what we need . The world is a finite resource but by becoming untied from rigid thinking we can provide benefit for all. Paul ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:02:40 -0700 Reply-To: oregon@domes.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Oregon Dome Organization: Oregon Dome Subject: Dome Raising MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To All: Some folks building out in New Hampshire have put together quite a website detailing their their project, from start to, well, where they are now. There are lots of pictures and details about every step they have gone through, including visits with the bank, ordering the porta-potty, pouring the foundation, delivery of the dome, and(where they are now) putting in the main floor system. For you who want to get into all of the gory details of a project, point your web browser to: http://domes.dimentech.com/warner/oregon/ -- Thanks, Nathan Burke, Oregon Dome, Inc. E-mail: oregon@domes.com Web: http://www.domes.com Address: 3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR 97402 Fax: (541) 689-9275 Phone: (800) 572-8943 or (541) 689-3443 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 07:08:53 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Definitions Needed In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990615105239.00826870@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:52:39 -0600, you wrote: >In order to clarify recent advances in teaching math, definitions for = the >following terms would be extremely h*elpful. > >Reimann sum Riemann Sum: symbolized by that tall S (curvy) in the calculus. http://www.shu.edu/projects/reals/integ/index.html Technically, mathematicians talk about a function being integrable of its upper and lower Riemann sums can be brought as close together as we like (are "equal at the limit"). In the context I was posting about, the greek SIGMA (used to=20 indicate a sum, making use of an index) is a good intro to the Riemann sum symbol, which also denotes a summation operation. SIGMA: =20 http://inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/graphics/sigma.gif http://inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/graphics/sigma2.gif >CBL Don't recall context. Something I posted about? >indexed arrays >>> array =3D ['C','A','T'] # an array is like a list of members >>> array[0] # the number in brackets is an "index" to the array 'C' >>> array[2] 'T' =20 >algorithm (i know this, but most people don't) sequence of operations, program See: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/outline0.html plus Overview >non-numeric operators Operators that deal with characters (for example) e.g. >>> 'CA' + 'T' 'CAT' Note: >>> stands for a computer command line, where a user types an instruction. Next line (no >>>) is the computer's output after=20 processing said command. >elastic interval geometry or EIG. "Springs" between joints have elastic properties: a rest length which exponentially resists stretching or compressing.=20 Discipline named by Gerald de Jong, inspired by Ken Snelson's=20 floating compression while on a bicycle trip in the Netherlands. See: http://www.beautifulcode.nl/ >Gaussian distribution Like a Bell Curve. When balls fall into a triangular pegboard from above: * * * * * * * * * * they can fall either left or right at each peg. The number of=20 routes to each peg is given by Pascal's triangle: 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 3 3 1 1 4 6 4 1 where each new row is derived by adding the two above-left, above- right. If you do a bell curve based on the bottom row: =20 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1 4 6 4 1 ... you get a bell curve or Gaussian distribution (smoother with higher number of rows). This is also the average number of balls that fall in each slot, as demonstrated by a popular science museum exhibit. See: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/binomial.html >It is always best if a workable gradient can be worked out for any = subject. ^^^^^^^^ Has lots of math meanings. > This gradient should definitely include three-dimensional demos. The >Povray program looks like a good step in the right direction here. Of >course what i'd really like to see, is a computer system that creates >three-dimensional holograms in space, and if i had unlimited funds and = time >available, that's precisely what i'd be developing right now. But in the meantime, you're right, Povray is a useful asset. >-- Michael Riversong Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 01:41:57 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Definitions <> Brian Hutchings 17-JUN-1999 1:41 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us CBL, which you'd mentioned, stands for "calculator-based lessons", which the woman (?) had spelled-out, referring to graphical/programmable units. --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:58:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: _The Lonestar Yankee_ (sik) <> Brian Hutchings 17-JUN-1999 2:58 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us SUBJECT: [Q-P] Exxon-Merger Merger (from the Dallas Oil-for-Peace Center? MESSAGE from =r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.U 17-JUN-19 2:50 <> Brian Hutchings 17-JUN-1999 2:38 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us Bucky Fuller said, Dare to be naieve, but even if most of his followers believe that that should be some sort of permanent, toddler-like bliss, you should not. for a minimal context of *climate change*, one should be prepared to seek out the vast literature of the Quaternary Period, period -- or semicolon, because the "field" has been pounded to dust by the simulacra, computerized, of an assumption whose juice was palatable in 1896, for about 5 minutes after it was propounde by Svente Ahrennius, the so-called Glass House. (yes, there is more than the usual requirement to "think outside of the box", even though the actual assumption, as pre-programmed into these simulacra, matches no known greenhouse, either the typical commercial unit, a nice half-dome, or a polyhedral unit suspended around a planet.) but I'm referring to Global Climate Models, not Quaternary Period Studies, the latter which are often straight-arrow empirical. [just for one example, as shown by Hugh Elsassaer the GCMs are utterly incapable of moddelling "mesoscale eddies" in either air or ocean (not to say the mantle, were "currents" in it to be found, somehow), both by dint of the hydrodynamics & the resolution of the grid. in other words, between the forecast of weather into the next month, and the stated assumptions of "global" warming, is a vast leap into the abyss of policy-making by the UN-IPCC -- a no-mans-land, yet still with a tightly packed concensus!] that is just willful ignorance. for sheerly blissful naievete, we have the spectacle of folks who insist upon taking the side of one "side" of a rapidly conglomerating enterprise, and that most notably of the side that sponsors British Petroleum, in its drive with the IMF to privatize every last national holding on Earth. maybe you could only expect that from the land of the "Lonestar Yuppie", Sir George Bush's playboy candidate, George Bush Jayar; the bellowing of the Mobilsaurus (cartoon) must be absolutely unthought-provoking, if not deafening, there. (these are the people, along with hte Party of Certain Color, who run on a platform of "fossilizing" the fuels.) so, who is going to benefit from the Kyoto Protocols, other than an anglomaniac (Tory) like Bush? --The Duke of Oil http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:28:48 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: _The Lonestar Yankee_ (sik) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit jJjEDI! THE force is with you. This tarpley book is it about the crash of Rome America due to lack of sharing or something? Bucky anticipated a world crash, and it never did come. I always thought it did not - because he lectured enough to the right people, to stop it. Now that he is gone all hell is al,most peeking over the horizon, in the way of anthrax, schools for fools, and nuclear flea markets. What is Tarpley 'and do you have discount prices for Jedi;s eyes. > , yet still with a tightly packed concensus!] > that is just willful ignorance. for sheerly blissful naievete, > > --The Duke of Oil > http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:40:22 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: A few words on list etiquette... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit prkosuth wrote: > ---------- > The challenge seems to be to untie from the rigid compartmentalized > thinking (science as departments, politics) and then to use the THINKING > and ARTIFACTS of Fuller to then tie up what we need . The world is a finite > resource but by becoming untied from rigid thinking we can provide benefit > for all. > > Paul This is my life force and has been along time, this afternoon you hit it right on the head, sometimes you forget to focus on the simple things. I am a unitivitist. One who unites the world into one truth at all times in the most economical way. Tie and focus are the same, to focus energy by design with the intellect in the most comprehensive way. Exciting stuff thank you for making the point it inspires me to refocus on the future and untie from the etiquette focus that comes about when the crunch comes with the bfi. The bfi must be established as the number one project for all of us to be considered with integrity for the world to work. This is my feelings. The archive is the most established artifact as a whole to change the world. The history of RBF is a trim tab and it is the highest archeological pile of future in the past on earth today. It must be dealt with and supported with the highest regard. I am going to work on the audio as soon as the dome is transferred and i have the resources to help that bfi. God welling, or universe precessing allowed.M ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:33:23 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: A few words on list etiquette... In-Reply-To: <37686016.C896B502@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >on earth today. It must be dealt with and supported with the highest >regard. I am going to work on the audio as soon as the dome is >transferred and i have the resources to help that bfi. God welling, >or universe precessing allowed.M Now that you've sold the bus company, both BFI and WGI should be expecting generous donations, as per your previously published rationale for advertising this scheme on my list. Perhaps you should send a check to Mr. Rose as well, as per your subsequent revisioning of what you were about. Since BFI and WGI both publish the names of their major and even minor donors, I expect to see yours in the near future, lest=20 you be branded as one of those 'all talk but no walk' lip=20 flappers, such as abound when it comes to talking big about Bucky. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:08:16 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: A few words on list etiquette... Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have worked 30 years and donated around 100 thousand dollars with the archive already, it is not your business what I do with my money or the dome or any of my bank accounts. Your the one that talks a lot. You put up one home page and talk behind everyone's back to get as you do now more self gratification by degrading everyone and try to make new comers to the lists think you are a big shot. Please get off this attitude and lets be friends and forget it already. Say you are sorry for hurting Allegra and Jamie and become on of the team for humanity and not darth vader of the bfi. Please consider this, I apologize to you and lets be friends. Michael S. Mitchell I wanted to talk more synergetics but you kicked me off the list let me at least talk about synergetics, I will not bother you about your hang ups with the bfi, and only talk geometry. I promise. You can bad mouth bfi all you want and I will stop defending them. Kirby Urner wrote: > >on earth today. It must be dealt with and supported with the highest > >regard. I am going to work on the audio as soon as the dome is > >transferred and i have the resources to help that bfi. God welling, > >or universe precessing allowed.M > > Now that you've sold the bus company, both BFI and WGI should > be expecting generous donations, as per your previously published > rationale for advertising this scheme on my list. Perhaps you > should send a check to Mr. Rose as well, as per your subsequent > revisioning of what you were about. > > Since BFI and WGI both publish the names of their major and even > minor donors, I expect to see yours in the near future, lest > you be branded as one of those 'all talk but no walk' lip > flappers, such as abound when it comes to talking big about > Bucky. > > Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:04:03 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "P. O. Box 2321" Subject: Biomolecular Machine Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Fuller called attention to the miniaturization of computers and machines. The trend continues... http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_370000/370035.stm -- http://www.box2321.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:36:22 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: A few words on list etiquette... In-Reply-To: <3769F060.BC522DCE@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:08:16 +0000, you wrote: >I have worked 30 years and donated around 100 thousand dollars >with the archive already, it is not your business what I do with my >money or the dome or any of my bank accounts.=20 You've made it our business by telling the world what you'd do with some of the money, once you sold the bus company -- donate a portion to BFI and WGI. That $100,000 figure is self serving, based on your time/energy=20 that went into doing audio tapes. I say Bucky more than compensated=20 you by letting you hang out with him so much. You still owe. It's your integrity that we're talking about. You're a source of a lot of cheap rhetoric about what's wrong with me. How about you look closer to home for stuff that needs dealing with. >Your the one that >talks a lot. You put up one home page and talk behind everyone's >back to get as you do now more self gratification by degrading everyone >and try to make new comers to the lists think you are a big shot. = Please Bullshit. How does talking "behind everyone's back" work for=20 anyone? Would mean I'm just chatting with myself, now wouldn't it? >get off this attitude and lets be friends and forget it already.=20 Hah! >Say you are sorry for hurting Allegra and Jamie and become on of the=20 >team for humanity and not darth vader of the bfi. I'm not the one who needs to apologize in this picture, but it=20 doesn't matter. I'm not interested in discussing the BFI with you, since you clearly have very little insight into the whole=20 situation. >Please consider this, I apologize to you and lets be friends. >Michael S. Mitchell No. You've poured out your insults against me for too long. Now that I hold you to your word and ask you to make good on your promises to WGI and BFI, you cave in. Walk your talk. Send that money now or hang your head in shame. >I wanted to talk more synergetics but you kicked me off the list >let me at least talk about synergetics, I will not bother you about >your hang ups with the bfi, and only talk geometry. You can talk about synergetics right here. Many of us do. I will never let you back on my list. Go make your own, since it's=20 unitivity (c) Michael S. Mitchell that you really want to talk about, not synergetics. Do something useful for a change, instead=20 of bragging about all the time you spent lowering the quality of=20 Bucky's life by hanging out with him. >I promise. You can bad mouth bfi all you want and I will stop >defending them. > No, your role is to defend the BFI. You've taken that on. That's=20 your karma. Plus you promised to send them money from your bus=20 company proceeds. Please make good on that plan. I plan to=20 check up on this. I will forgive your excesses when it comes to all your personal attacks on me, but I will not be your friend and I will not let=20 you back on my list. And I don't really care if you go back to harrassing me. Not a big deal. I have no trouble exposing=20 you for what you are whenever you do. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:50:27 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: BFI INCOME & ASSETS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Info from the Internet Nonprofit Center (data from 12-97 IRS Form 990): Income: $169,737.00 Assets: $393,730.00 http://www.nonprofits.org/cgi-bin/irs/search_irs_exact.pl?ein=953273023&stat e=CA Joe S Moore mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:50:02 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: etiquette for dummies <> Brian Hutchings 18-JUN-1999 17:50 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us I haven't seen any evidence, Cap'n Mitch [*], that you are capable of doing any geometry, or at least "talking" about it. while there is a certain wonder at hyaving a *tabla rasa* to shoot peas off of, as well as ideas, I can only imagine that you became a hindrance to Bucky, insofar as you protruded into his seminarial groups (or what ever, beyond your helpful technical avocation. beyond a certain "point", *daring* should not be a fulltime occupation, to theat point where you are peranently ensconced in the rectal display unit --whosever-- and you run out of coherent breath "up" there in your happy naievete. Bucky got away with doing the most elementary of "engineering", because he was (in part) uncovering a lot of classical stuff, that had been somewhat lost (and somewhat ass-backwards, as far as we are concerned; viz, I recommend starting with the Dover edition of Euclid's compendium, with the 14th Book by Hysicles -- with the spatial "intertransformabilities" .-) Bucky got away with a book that only requires "taking square roots -- or rather second ones", but you don't seem to be able to do that. so, when you blather about analtivity --not that I'd argue with the supreme importance of "multiply-connected circular action" as developed by Cusa, Leonardo, Gauss, Riemann et al-- you consequently jam your head "up" further, with respect to Universe, by insulting someone who has put in soe hard time in actually teaching a large chunk of it, K-12 (plus those audiotapes that are strapped to the expectant mother .-) --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:29:41 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: etiquette for dummies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IT seems your father was an alky as well huh! Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Hutchings 18-JUN-1999 17:50 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > I haven't seen any evidence, Cap'n Mitch [*], > that you are capable of doing any geometry, > or at least "talking" about it. while there is a certain wonder > at hyaving a *tabla rasa* to shoot peas off of, as well as ideas, > I can only imagine that you became a hindrance to Bucky, > insofar as you protruded into his seminarial groups (or what ever, > beyond your helpful technical avocation. > beyond a certain "point", *daring* should not be a fulltime > occupation, to theat point where you are peranently ensconced > in the rectal display unit --whosever-- and you run out > of coherent breath "up" there in your happy naievete. > Bucky got away with doing the most elementary of "engineering", > because he was (in part) uncovering a lot of classical stuff, > that had been somewhat lost (and somewhat ass-backwards, as far > as we are concerned; viz, I recommend starting with the Dover edition > of Euclid's compendium, with the 14th Book by Hysicles -- > with the spatial "intertransformabilities" .-) > > Bucky got away with a book that only requires "taking square roots -- or > rather second ones", but you don't seem to be able to do that. so, > when you blather about analtivity --not that I'd argue > with the supreme importance of "multiply-connected circular action" > as developed by Cusa, Leonardo, Gauss, Riemann et al-- > you consequently jam your head "up" further, > with respect to Universe, by insulting someone > who has put in soe hard time in actually teaching a large chunk of it, > K-12 (plus those audiotapes that are strapped to the expectant mother .-) > > --The Duke of Oil! > http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 06:16:05 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Synergetics as rehash of "classical stuff" In-Reply-To: <199906190050.RAA23293@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian Hutchings wrote: > Bucky got away with doing the most elementary of "engineering", > because he was (in part) uncovering a lot of classical stuff, > that had been somewhat lost (and somewhat ass-backwards, as far > as we are concerned; viz, I recommend starting with the Dover edition > of Euclid's compendium, with the 14th Book by Hysicles -- > with the spatial "intertransformabilities" .-) Urner replies: I agree with you that much of the data in synergetics is found=20 in earlier sources. Synergetics is more what computer=20 scientists have taken to calling a namespace, such that one=20 might qualify its key terms ala the oop model (objects 'n all),=20 by writing 'synergetics.dimension' to distinguish from, say,=20 'mainstream.dimension' (the one we learn in K-12). Same with 'synergetics.gravity' -- it's syntropic in the native semantics, but vis-a-vis our everyday parlance it's mostly precessional. Or another metaphor: Fuller's contribution is more the=20 compressional relationships than the data itself. You might=20 unzip a zip file and say 'but none of this content is new' --=20 but don't overlook the 'in-itself' of zipping. Synergetics=20 compacts (compresses), again like the computer people do, by=20 overloading signifiers ('frequency' for example). He's being=20 polymorphic, if not perverse, by increasing the bandwidth, by=20 having his philosophy and geometry creatively co-conspire=20 (synergize). Alloys and all that rot, what? Synergetics as=20 alchemy... As I wrote in a recent post to comp.lang.python (about my=20 recent implementation of the concentric hierarchy in Guido's=20 Python language): =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D VI. Getting and Learning Synergetics 'Synergetics' was originally a 2 volume work published by=20 Macmillan (1975, 1979). The numbered sections were designed=20 such that the two volumes could be interleaved. The web=20 version, put up by Robert Gray with permission from Fuller's=20 estate is linked from my: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/links.html 'Synergetics' is a philosophical work, written to be parsed by=20 the humanities-trained i.e. it's not cram packed with arcane=20 symbols or math notations -- by design. That's advance warning=20 to forestall premature disconnect, i.e. a lot of people open it=20 expecting to find mainstream.mathematics, not realizing that in=20 this remote namespace, synergetics.mathematics means something=20 else, which doesn't mean it's not operational at some level --=20 in its own terms at least. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D You can find the full text of that Python piece in newsgroups,=20 via Deja News. Here's an URL:=20 http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=3D490567169&fmt=3Dtext Kirby PS: re that Python paper, I've since enhanced the source code,=20 as per my post of this evening to Synergetics-L (to Mr. Koski=20 et al). Check same directory as test2.py for polys.py if=20 interested in downloading. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 02:46:39 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: do it theirself <> Brian Hutchings 19-JUN-1999 2:46 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us SUBJECT: Re: [Q-P] Noam loves you! MESSAGE from =r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.U 19-JUN-19 2:11 <> Brian Hutchings 18-JUN-1999 18:39 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us ah, mister Booth, youre points are well-taken. hwile I agree that we must take the lead as it has come down to us, in reconstruction, I don't see how you can posit the Yugoslavian forces with having to sit on their hands, as Tony Blair yelped like a mad dog, leading the US forces into an all-out groundwar. that is, it's supposed to be good procedyre, to get potential co-beligerants out of the field, before they join arms with your giant enemy; is it? please note the following, if you're in Los Angeles: 15:204) Community Events Brian Hutchings 18-JUN-19 2:48 there is going to be an Emergency Town Meeting this Saturday afternoon at the Ramada Inn by Fox Hills Mall. the idea is could be called the Ron Brown Memorial Plan, a sort of Ma rshall Plan to take-up what Secty.Brown was doing, before his plane was lost, along with the construction executives. the ideal is that this will be an exemplar, to continue-on with other areas of Earth that are still quite war-torn and, consequently, isolated & undeveloped. the "emergency" is that the situation is extremely volatile, predictably from the failure to follow-up for Brown, and the resultant imposition of the usually crushing austerity of the IMF/World Bank spinning-wheels consultancies. the emergency is that NATO will be used to impose these same doctrines, if there are not adequate state-to-state efforts, unmediated, by at least a small group of nations including the US and Russia and/or China, and a couple of European countries. these are intended to be "Hamiltonian" methods of credit-creation, not simply gushers of bleeding-heart "philanthropy". this is to support & further Pres.Clinton's suggestions re "peace through development", as well as to steer him away from the massive pressure to rely on the miracle of markets, as a histroical imperative. the meeting is at 1:30 P.M. this Saturday, at 1633 Bristol Parkway, Culver City. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 03:12:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: all in all it's just another British institution with walls <> Brian Hutchings 19-JUN-1999 3:12 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us SUBJECT: Re: [Q-P] Charter Schools MESSAGE from =r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.U 19-JUN-19 2:11 <> Brian Hutchings 18-JUN-1999 18:00 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us thanks, JB, for those facts from Michigan. we'd reported on the fight against this provatization by a state legislator, but it's hard to do, when folks are inculcated with the false ideal, that Adam Smith was a Founding Parental Unit! I went to a local schoolboard meeting, last week, and asked if they thought that Gov.Wilson's class-size reductions were really a ploy to garner more charterization. the answer was implied to be, Yes, although "Santa Monica actually doesn't have a problem with getting teachers". this was because I'd mentioned, that a man gave a talk at UCLA on math.instruction, who used to work at the NSF on national standards & so forth, and he said, this class-size reduction is totatlly unsustainable, per the teacher-training, currently. I take that to mean both more privatization, and an assuedly growing underclass of feudal America (another colony of the Br.Commonealth e.g.). --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:28:04 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "P. O. Box 2321" Subject: Re: Synergetics as rehash of "classical stuff" Comments: To: Kirby Urner In-Reply-To: <376b3380.838548@alumni.princeton.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Brian Hutchings wrote: > > Bucky got away with doing the most elementary of "engineering", > > because he was (in part) uncovering a lot of classical stuff, > > that had been somewhat lost (and somewhat ass-backwards, as far > > as we are concerned; viz, I recommend starting with the Dover edition > > of Euclid's compendium, with the 14th Book by Hysicles -- > > with the spatial "intertransformabilities" .-) Henry Ford invented almost nothing - aside from putting together existing inventions in a new way, the industrial assembly line, which changed human history. Perhaps synergetics will similarly be found to be nothing new, but in its combination of existing information reveal something new. -T. -- http://www.box2321.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:02:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: WG & GENI INCOME & ASSETS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From the Internet Nonprofit Center (http://www.nonprofits.org/): WORLD GAME: Income $848,322; Assets $143,471 (12-97) http://www.nonprofits.org/cgi-bin/irs/search_irs.pl GENI: Income $70,512; Assets $24,323 (12-97) http://www.nonprofits.org/cgi-bin/irs/search_irs.pl Joe S Moore mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:36:23 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: IS THAT YOU? Comments: To: FLEXSZ@HOTMAIL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Felix, Are you the Felix Szieto that used to live in Manhattan Beach, CA, & volunteer for the BFI? If so, check out http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html (Geodesic newsletter). Joe S Moore mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:18:28 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: dome roofing Comments: To: Jajwuth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is a new way to treat this problem that is from wood boat preservation, the West Systems which is on the web and can be bought from West Marine a company on the web. You just mix this epoxy and paint it on the wood anywhere you think it may leak. I have only seen all domes leak over door ways that are flat and stick out from the compound curvature arch. The west systems may be used with fiber glass under it for strength or just as a sealer. It will stop rot for ever or it will take that which has rotted and make it solid again. You can get the instruction manual from West Systems on how to use it for old boats and you just use it for the domes. If you mix it with acetone 1 to 1 you can paint the whole dome with it for 500 dollars for a 40 footer, just roll it on and it will seal it for rot for life, then roof it as usual, dip nails in it and they will never rust, wear gloves for making sandwiches like 500 in a box for deli stuff. Wear 4 pairs over each other when one glove gets bad slip it off and you have another clean one under it. Good for painting as well. When you come to places that you think will leak some time that are not vertical and are more horizontal to the ground use fiberglass mat on this area and it will hole the epoxy thicker and never leak again. It is used for the bottom as well as the tops of boats. It is the best use of gasoline products in history in my mind,. Jajwuth wrote: > I've been toying with building my own dome. > I've read that they tend to leak. > For planning purposes what is the best typr of roofing to use and will it leak > Thanks > Al ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:13:12 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Synergetics as rehash of "classical stuff" <> Brian Hutchings 19-JUN-1999 17:13 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us Ford was preceded (if he did not get the ideas from) by Carnot, the "Author of Victory" for (the otherwise dysgusting) Napoleon, who revolutionized the production of artillery and ammunition; he was the founder, with Monge (of projective geometry fame), of l'Ecole Polytechnique. the Polytechnical reforms were greatly influenced by those of Schiller and Humboldt in Prussia, both of which influences were brought to America at West Point. Watt was brought by Franklin to France, to study Pepin's steam-engine, under the advizement of Liebniz. (recall this,the next time that you read Burke's "connections" column in Sci.Am. -- I personally can't read it, after seeing a few of the obfuscatory PBS series, so long ago .-) thus quoth: Henry Ford invented almost nothing - aside from putting together existing inventions in a new way, the industrial assembly line, which changed human history. Perhaps synergetics will similarly be found to be nothing new, having read most of Synergetics, I have to dysagree, although it is *largely* the case. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 17:21:36 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Charter Schools <> Brian Hutchings 19-JUN-1999 17:21 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us 15:718) EDUCATION MATTERS Brian Hutchings 19-JUN-19 17:17 it should also be noted, what she'd said was that Santa Monica *beneffited* from turnover from LAUSD e.g. thus saith: > they thought that Gov.Wilson's class-size reductions were really > a ploy to garner more charterization. the answer was implied > to be, Yes, although "Santa Monica actually doesn't have a problem > with getting teachers". this was because I'd mentioned, --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 21:17:53 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Synergetics as rehash of "classical stuff" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > in its combination of existing information reveal something new. > > -T. > John Huston stated that bucky had sifted the gold from the sand.http://home.earthlink.net/~syntrivity/index.html The ability to understand bucky from the point of view of a normal education is hard to do. It seems to be in a fog to people that have been over specialized in the educational system. Only those with imagination can see through the fog and find that he is actually more sensible than the common point of view. The comprehensivity that he has to offer makes one think for them self for the first time and see the rest of the world for what it is. To see that you only have a finite time on earth for sure, and that what you do here with this time has to do with your children and all other children for they are taught each time they start over with new eyes, it is very important to tell the truth to the children and make it easy for them to survive and not kill each other as we have seen in the past. The way we die and what we do as we die is this design that is for the children. Bucky would always say, how? can these people lie to their own children?! What kind of person can do this? It is imperative that we make classical that which includes all people as one planet family and we celebrate our differences and collaborate to make the world work for all humans to come and to clean this place for them and stop making a mess and invest in the place so it is clean and easy to survive for all those that come and that money be made available from the war chests to make the world work so we do not need them anymore. Mollock the heavy judger of men, they broke there backs lifting mollock to heaven. Allen Ginsberg. WE must get rid of mollock. Einstein was one of the great students of Euclid and brought many new views to the anti-compound curvature school of thought with geometry. The world comes from building pyramids. measuring earth. dig a ditch and stacking blocks, We must see it for what it is now, that all goes the speed of light at least and it is omni directional at the same time and that time it self is geometry. That it is relative and unitary at the same time. Unitivity rools. What was classical and abstract is now real and more, we cannot imagine the way it works we can only try to see ways that we have not yet thought of and for sure it will be one way each time we do see one way. For it works with synergy to our relativity to it. This is synergetics. It was first called, energetic synergetic geometry. Now people just say synergetics. It is a way of saying hah, i know something you do not. i feel this hurts us more than helps. WE NEED less I am more us in energetic and synergetic geometry. It is on the cover of the books. An exploration in the geometry of thought. We must explore but be humble to say we all can see something that the other can not and we must work together to see collaboration of us to see more. Unit thought is the unitific method, this is my signature in the collaboration I lay ground work with my thought and call it unitivity because no matter what we all live in one volume, this is the unitivity volume and all other events will be with in this one volume and those that make an effort to harmonize with the volume and make it seen as one are unitivitist. Those that break it into little pieces and leave it there are specialists. The whole is more important than the parts and so happiness is truth and truth is whole in principle. Science leads us to truth and this makes happiness. This is the best way to live, any other way is death rate acceleration. Michael S. Mitchell. - Unitivitist (c) 1999 MSM ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 21:21:31 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Synergetics as rehash of "classical stuff" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Hutchings wrote: > < having read most of Synergetics, I have to dysagree, although > it is *largely* the case. I agree with you. Mr. Box is has a bar of soap or as rocky the flying squirrel would say, . there is soap on his soap box. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 21:29:16 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Charter Schools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The complete school system needs to be fired. Bucky in his education automation stated this net stuff was here in 1965 in Carbondale in Vision 65. By the way I handed bucky his first copy off the press from Carbondale of Operation Manual for Space Ship earth in 1969 or 70 in Portland Maine when I flew in to tape him there. He state he had not seen it yet when I gave it to him.. free and i was not listed for it with the bfi, I am so put out. smarter schools would be to leave everyone at home with a computer and give them the money and not build the buildings. All that money would be available to feed house cloth and send them around the world to see it and write about it and design for it. Why have all this standing around in one place just to teach them how not to read and shoot each other. WE could give the money to the airlines and have them camp out all over the world see history where it took place go to the art spots and see the world for what it is for the same money. they would have e mail to home every day. Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Hutchings 19-JUN-1999 17:21 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > 15:718) EDUCATION MATTERS > Brian Hutchings 19-JUN-19 17:17 > > it should also be noted, what she'd said was that > Santa Monica *beneffited* from turnover from LAUSD e.g. > > thus saith: > > they thought that Gov.Wilson's class-size reductions were really > > a ploy to garner more charterization. the answer was implied > > to be, Yes, although "Santa Monica actually doesn't have a problem > > with getting teachers". this was because I'd mentioned, > > --The Duke of Oil! > http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 14:00:31 +0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: m vargas Subject: DIY In-Reply-To: <199906200403.MAA09123@ms15.hinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm new to the list, an American living in Taiwan. I'm opening an ultralight flight park and would like to build a geodesic dome for a hangar, to house 4 - 5 ul's. , about 3500 sq ft. I want to use the starplate construction system, making my own star plates out of stainless steel , joining with stainless or aluminum struts. I need to know how to do the math to calculate the angle of starplates, 5 point and six point. Got any advice? Malcolm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 06:59:04 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: DIY In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990620140031.00793de0@ms15.hinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Got any advice? > > >Malcolm You might want to check what some long-time vendors in the dome biz have done, maybe order a kit or at least contact=20 a rep. You can go through all the math, but have you though through all your materials? Geometrica has done some hangars for airplanes (full sized) but uses the octet truss for that -- another option. I offer this cautionary advice because as documented in the late editions of DomeBook 2, a lot of designs developed problems over time -- a generation of hippies did prototypes and many=20 got disillusioned, because of all the failures. But those=20 vendors still turning them out have solved many of the early=20 problems. Starting from scratch, though, you run the risk of=20 repeating all the early mistakes. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:09:42 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Synergetics as rehash of "classical stuff" In-Reply-To: <199906200013.RAA27087@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > thus quoth: > Henry Ford invented almost nothing - aside from putting together = existing > inventions in a new way, the industrial assembly line, which changed = human > history. Perhaps synergetics will similarly be found to be nothing = new, > > having read most of Synergetics, I have to dysagree, although > it is *largely* the case. Have trouble parsing this reply. Have to dysagree that what? That it contains nothing new, or that it might go down in history as a new=20 way of putting together previously known components? Both? Neither? Your "*largely*" is supposed to allude to the voluminousness of the two tomes -- or not, and if so, meaning what? On the polyhedron front, the simple streamlining of a concentric=20 hierarchy to whole number volumes is sufficient to boost spatial=20 geometry is a mnemonic -- something to carry around in memory, vs. having to consult tomes. Synergetics links to hermetic memory arts in coming up with hyperlinked cosmography, with this simple backbone of (tet,cube,oct,rhdodeca,cuboct) =3D (1,3,4,6). Then you've got the spinnings relating to great circlings, the jitterbug-bridge to the 5-fold family (more circlings) and the LCD triangles incorporating both sets. Add the modules (the MITE is mentioned by Coxeter on pg 71 of 'Regular Polytopes' but not by that name, nor is its=20 decomposition in A+A+B discussed -- a real contribution to geometry from our guy), add the sphere packings (ala Kepler's studies) and=20 you've got some useful K-4 material. All something a 21st century=20 kid should take for granted as common knowledge by age 12 or 14. =20 That's curriculum compression for ya. Re Watt and visiting Carnot, there's more to that story as well, including in fiction. I recommend 'The Iron Bridge' about a time traveler back to that era, with aims to sabotage the iron age and maybe delay humanity's slide down a slippery slope to dystopia. =20 Not as anti-techie as it sounds. Lotsa Quakers (makes it fun for=20 me). Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:17:23 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Synergetics as rehash of "classical stuff" In-Reply-To: <376C09DA.B18D598C@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46rom a letter to a friend (and programmer) in Silicon Valley area. Sharing the new geometry curriculum. It's easy! It's fun! -- KTU =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > =3D friend =3D me <> >What is unfortunate is that the teacher didn't make a simple >demonstration. It's easy to make three identical square-base >pyramids out of cardboard that can be assembled to form a cube. =20 Yes. Or if you inscribe a tetrahedron as face diagonals of a cube, the left-over bits are 1/8 octahedra, of which there are of course four -- so a half octahedron. =20 If you double the edges of a tetrahedron, you get another=20 tetrahedron with 4 tips the same as the original, with an=20 octahedron inside. That's the same octahedron we're getting=20 half of off the cube. =20 Given the doubled-edge tet has 8x the original volume (volume=20 increases as a 3rd power of edge growth for any shape), after=20 subtracting the 4 original tet-tips we're left with an octahedron=20 =3D 4 tets in volume. =20 So.... original tet inside cube + 1/2 (4 tets octahedron) =3D=20 tet + 2 tets =3D 3 tets, meaning the cube has a volume of 3 tets=20 (or tet has volume 1/3rd of cube's). All this would be made much easier if we just made the tet our measuring cup and said it holds a volume of 1 tet. Then the cube (in which the tet inscribes) would be 3, and the octahedron 4. The cube and octahedron are duals and together define a=20 rhombic dodecahedron (long face diagonals =3D octa, short face diagonals =3D cube) of volume 6 tets. =20 Tet 1 Cube 3 Octa 4 Rh Dodeca 6 That's a pretty simple volume table, thanks to the unit-tet=20 measuring cup. What's even better is if you use a uniform point dispersion=20 of closest packed spheres with 12 around every 1 in a cuboctahedral conformation (=3Dfcc), and define the distance=20 between 2 adjacent sphere centers as your tet edge in the=20 above table. This lattice (defined by the sphere centers) therefore consists=20 of tetrahedral and octahedral voids of volume 1 and 4 respectively. =20 Turns out that if you pick any four points in this lattice at=20 random (non-coplanar) and connect them with 6 edges to get a=20 tetrahedron, that this tetrahedron will have a *whole number=20 volume* relative to the unit tet measuring cup. Also, the cuboctahedron defined by 12 spheres around any=20 nuclear sphere has a volume of 20 tets. The Rh Dodeca of volume 6 is what circumscribes every sphere and close-packs=20 to fill space (cite Kepler's studies). That's an example of the kind of streamlining I've been=20 working to phase into the curriculum, i.e. the Bucky stuff. BTW, my Python program (no GUI either) is built around what we call "quadrays". Four vectors from the center to the=20 4 vertices of our "home base" tetrahedron (as defined above) are sufficient to map all points in volume to unique 4-tuples. I.E. A=3D(1,0,0,0) B=3D(0,1,0,0) C=3D(0,0,1,0) D=3D(0,0,0,1) are the four vertices of the volume 1 tetrahedron. My program=20 builds all the rest of the polyhedra it defines by adding and scaling quadrays. But when it comes to rotation, I still have to convert in and out of xyz as I don't have any native quadray algorithm for that (I do have a native distance formula=20 though, which is root[(3/2 x sum of the squares) minus (the=20 sum of the pairs)] of any 4-tuple (a,b,c,d). Because 4-tuples map volume with 4 basis rays instead of the Cartesian 6 (positive/negative mutually orthogonal spokes=20 from the origin), we have a way of attaching sense to the=20 synergetics.dimension concept, under which all volumes are considered "4D". Those are Platonic shapes in pure principle, defined only by their angles. Once you time/size realize a=20 shape (make it mortal), it has additional dimensions, i.e.=20 is 4D+. But the original synergetics.4D had nothing to do with time. 4D is timeless/sizeless. This is the 4D (vs.=20 the Einsteinian one) behind my company name: 4D Solutions. >That demonstrates one instance of a prism and pyramid being in=20 >a three to one volume ratio, after which it should't sound too=20 >farfetched to say that the same ratio applies in general. Agreed. Kirby <> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:02:48 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Synergetics as rehash of "classical stuff" Comments: To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very good but, this is a given. The speed of light and precession are all primitive to this and the area of sweep out is as well. This is the unitivity model. These models are g force models on earth and can be made of compression axis that have it in relativity as something static to see. The real synergy is in the fact that all volumes are within one that is frequency modulated into time and that all these models you are speaking of are in precession and not static out side of gravity fields any where in the universe, therefor they are precessional spins with axis always and forming volumes. The 720 degrees that make or break the volume is the play ground of entropy, less than 90 degree orbits, syntropy, more than 90 degree orbits, and isotropy, isotropic orbits. These are concepts of unitivity that I have described as my view of these events. Unititivty is always responding to one volume, the universe, the force of the universe is syntrivity at minimum which is 3 events being one. Relativity is what syntrivity forms after more than three events occur in my unititivity mind matrix. With all the below I agree with the volumes etc. and it is good work. Thank you, (c) 1999 Michael S. Mitchelll Published on the web. No one ever considered 720 degrees as a system before Bucky. This is his discovery, that alone is a great insight for humanity. This is not rehash it is synergetics. As the light from a distance star hits us this could be called rehash stars, but I do not mind that. May the force be with you. As hal the computer would say, HellO! You don't want to do that. What these models do... do. Is allow one to see that all is connected in a unitary form of energy events proceeding to a unified field theory of form and function. Unitivity is this model that I have been working on with bucky since 1966. It was copy righted 1967 and handed to him, and it inspired him to invent the word syntropy. I was very proud of that. This is not a religion it is a form of understanding that we all live in one volume what ever you call it, and it goes the speed of light. The idea that it has uniform relationships that make it predictable and designable to make it easier to live within, for all mankind is the facts that we seek to articulate. World Game and the Buckminster Fuller Institute Rools. http://home.earthlink.net/~syntrivity/index.html Kirby Urner wrote: > >From a letter to a friend (and programmer) in Silicon Valley area. > Sharing the new geometry curriculum. It's easy! It's fun! -- KTU > > =========== > > > = friend > = me > > <> > > >What is unfortunate is that the teacher didn't make a simple > >demonstration. It's easy to make three identical square-base > >pyramids out of cardboard that can be assembled to form a cube. > > Yes. Or if you inscribe a tetrahedron as face diagonals of a > cube, the left-over bits are 1/8 octahedra, of which there are > of course four -- so a half octahedron. > > If you double the edges of a tetrahedron, you get another > tetrahedron with 4 tips the same as the original, with an > octahedron inside. That's the same octahedron we're getting > half of off the cube. > > Given the doubled-edge tet has 8x the original volume (volume > increases as a 3rd power of edge growth for any shape), after > subtracting the 4 original tet-tips we're left with an octahedron > = 4 tets in volume. > > So.... original tet inside cube + 1/2 (4 tets octahedron) = > tet + 2 tets = 3 tets, meaning the cube has a volume of 3 tets > (or tet has volume 1/3rd of cube's). > > All this would be made much easier if we just made the tet our > measuring cup and said it holds a volume of 1 tet. Then the > cube (in which the tet inscribes) would be 3, and the octahedron > 4. The cube and octahedron are duals and together define a > rhombic dodecahedron (long face diagonals = octa, short face > diagonals = cube) of volume 6 tets. > > Tet 1 > Cube 3 > Octa 4 > Rh Dodeca 6 > > That's a pretty simple volume table, thanks to the unit-tet > measuring cup. > > What's even better is if you use a uniform point dispersion > of closest packed spheres with 12 around every 1 in a > cuboctahedral conformation (=fcc), and define the distance > between 2 adjacent sphere centers as your tet edge in the > above table. > > This lattice (defined by the sphere centers) therefore consists > of tetrahedral and octahedral voids of volume 1 and 4 respectively. > > Turns out that if you pick any four points in this lattice at > random (non-coplanar) and connect them with 6 edges to get a > tetrahedron, that this tetrahedron will have a *whole number > volume* relative to the unit tet measuring cup. > > Also, the cuboctahedron defined by 12 spheres around any > nuclear sphere has a volume of 20 tets. The Rh Dodeca of > volume 6 is what circumscribes every sphere and close-packs > to fill space (cite Kepler's studies). > > That's an example of the kind of streamlining I've been > working to phase into the curriculum, i.e. the Bucky stuff. > > BTW, my Python program (no GUI either) is built around what > we call "quadrays". Four vectors from the center to the > 4 vertices of our "home base" tetrahedron (as defined above) > are sufficient to map all points in volume to unique 4-tuples. > I.E. A=(1,0,0,0) B=(0,1,0,0) C=(0,0,1,0) D=(0,0,0,1) are the > four vertices of the volume 1 tetrahedron. My program > builds all the rest of the polyhedra it defines by adding > and scaling quadrays. But when it comes to rotation, I still > have to convert in and out of xyz as I don't have any native > quadray algorithm for that (I do have a native distance formula > though, which is root[(3/2 x sum of the squares) minus (the > sum of the pairs)] of any 4-tuple (a,b,c,d). > > Because 4-tuples map volume with 4 basis rays instead of the > Cartesian 6 (positive/negative mutually orthogonal spokes > from the origin), we have a way of attaching sense to the > synergetics.dimension concept, under which all volumes are > considered "4D". Those are Platonic shapes in pure principle, > defined only by their angles. Once you time/size realize a > shape (make it mortal), it has additional dimensions, i.e. > is 4D+. But the original synergetics.4D had nothing to do > with time. 4D is timeless/sizeless. This is the 4D (vs. > the Einsteinian one) behind my company name: 4D Solutions. > > >That demonstrates one instance of a prism and pyramid being in > >a three to one volume ratio, after which it should't sound too > >farfetched to say that the same ratio applies in general. > > Agreed. > > Kirby > > <> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:45:15 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: DIY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I were you I would use a 55 foot plywood dome with West Systems epoxy rolled on it with fiberglass mat if you really want to make it strong. You can make two floors in it if you want leaving 1/2 of it open. The cost of this would be so much less that you could buy a lot more planes. Put it on a slab and heat in the floor if you need it with a hot water heater and a pump. Just put white tar roofing on it and you have a great a very cheap and indestructible dome that will last many years. Do not put it on a riser for they are squares and can crush in time. You could hang them from the ceiling if you wanted to make more room. A 3 frequency icosa cap dome if I remember right is what you are looking for. Do not trust Mr. Urner he hates wood domes and the family's that build them.. But for the cost they are really best and the trees grow back. The amount of time and effort for a metal dome is way out of budget compared to a wood dome. You could build a loft like for half the dome and put ultra lights upper and lower floors for 1/2 of it and just lower for the other half. Upper is a flat earth concept it should be outer floors from the center of the precession on the origin of force adjustment which would be earth in this case, then the sun and then where the center of radii is for the sun and so on. The 55 footer has a large volume for its size. You rip the 4x8's diagonal and put a T inside the triangle and the whole dome is made by 4x8s and 2 x 4s. The central angle cut into the 2x4s and they bolt together with out hubs along there edges as well as into the slab. put insulation in them and face them with 1/4 inch plywood inside. recess the doors, and windows and you will not have leaks. This is my opinion. Michael S. Mitchell m vargas wrote: > I'm new to the list, an American living in Taiwan. I'm opening an > ultralight flight park and would like to build a geodesic dome for a > hangar, to house 4 - 5 ul's. , about 3500 sq ft. > > I want to use the starplate construction system, making my own star plates > out of stainless steel , joining with stainless or aluminum struts. > > I need to know how to do the math to calculate the angle of starplates, 5 > point and six point. > > Got any advice? > > Malcolm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 06:39:26 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: DIY In-Reply-To: <376D1A9B.97E80BCE@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:45:15 +0000, you wrote: >for. Do not trust Mr. Urner he hates wood domes and the family's that = build >them.. =20 Pay no attention to MSM's statements about Mr. Urner. He spews misinfo about me as a matter of mindless reflex. You'll see=20 my http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domeman.html lists many fine vendors of wood dome solutions. =20 It's Fuller, not Urner, who pushed so hard for aerospace tech=20 to enter the housing sector (though Urner agrees this would be=20 a fine development). And neither Fuller nor Urner lays claim to the discovery that aerospace tech is mostly not about using lumber for its structures. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:43:01 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: The City of Santa Monica has passed a resolution, <> Brian Hutchings 21-JUN-1999 0:43 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us The City of Santa Monica has passed a resolution, to define PI to be *exactly* 3, made 5-dollar bills illegal as tender within City bounds & demanded that the Federal Reserve Board print pi-dollar bills, henceforth, the better to make change (also, 2-dollar bills are artithmetical contraband). There are several things in _S_ that seem to be original, although not that much. He also had a few good thoughts that seem to have been inspired from his use oif tensegrity. The "hierarchy" is just fine, as far as it goes, but the dwelling upon volume is very un-4-d, which is why he wanted everyone to look at Coxeter. a practical cosideration made him also "focus"upon struts, or edges, to be arbitrarily made the unit, but this is unneeded, or at least not mandatory. He completely avoided the nontrigon-faceted shapes, which are essential as an aspect to "inside-outness" or what ever, and a nicer, more nuclear nesting, and the really groovy relations of them that were put into Hypsicles "Euclid". -Da Duke !! http://www.taerpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:09:59 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Seedpod Domes Comments: To: sedcan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry, Bucky called them "Flying Seed Pod" domes and I have categorized them under "Foldable" domes. See "Links/Domes/F/Foldable/Washington University/ ". http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Links/Domes-F.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: sedcan To: Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 5:16 AM Subject: Seedpod Domes > Do you know any seedpod domes that have been built recently? > Very interested in this dome > Barry Black > Sedcan Constructions Pty Ltd. Sydney Australia > sedcan@nsw.bigpond.net.au > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:23:01 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: DIY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Malcolm, You might want to take a look at my "Domes" section at "Links/D/Domes/...". http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Links/D.htm And "Links/D/Domes/H/Hangars/...". http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Links/Domes-H.htm You should also check "Links/G/Geometry/...". http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Links/Geom.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: m vargas Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Saturday, June 19, 1999 11:00 PM Subject: DIY > I'm new to the list, an American living in Taiwan. I'm opening an > ultralight flight park and would like to build a geodesic dome for a > hangar, to house 4 - 5 ul's. , about 3500 sq ft. > > I want to use the starplate construction system, making my own star plates > out of stainless steel , joining with stainless or aluminum struts. > > I need to know how to do the math to calculate the angle of starplates, 5 > point and six point. > > Got any advice? > > > Malcolm > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:05:37 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: The City of Santa Monica has passed a resolution, In-Reply-To: <199906210743.AAA30950@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > The "hierarchy" is just fine, as far as it goes, but > the dwelling upon volume is very un-4-d, which is why > he wanted everyone to look at Coxeter. =20 Not sure what this means. He dwells plenty on volume=20 (primitively 4D in his namespace). Sure, he invites people to look at Coxeter by the simple fact of dedicating the=20 work to him. But I find little evidence of anything more than that. > a practical > cosideration made him also "focus"upon struts, or edges, > to be arbitrarily made the unit, but this is unneeded, or > at least not mandatory. The focus on edges has to do with a focus on relationships. "Solids" have no real reality in synergetics nomenclature, as discontinuity (discrete geometry) is the name of the=20 game. =20 > He completely avoided the nontrigon-faceted shapes, Like the cuboctahedron, centerpiece of the work (always getting a new name as his career progresses -- was the 'dymaxion' itself for a time)? Nor are the rhombic=20 dodecahedron and triacontahedron triangularly faceted, yet both are in the hierarchy. But it's true the Fuller was not aiming for an exhaustive inventory or catalog of everything polyhedra. For that, he might indeed point one to Coxeter. Geometry is mined on behalf of philosophy, for some useful concepts, hooked to an invented semantics. The end is philosophy, with geometry merely the means of choice (because of its=20 universality at the basis of all experiences -- it's cross-cultural appeal). > which are essential as an aspect to "inside-outness" or > what ever, and a nicer, more nuclear nesting, and > the really groovy relations of them that were put > into Hypsicles "Euclid". Ibid (same point). Don't confuse Fuller with someone=20 trying to be exhaustive about all matters geometric. He is/was not a Coxeter-wannabe. Synergetics is a=20 language. It's purpose is not to serve in place of an=20 encyclopedia i.e. it is not "omnicomprehensive" in the sense of "trivial pursuits" (any amount of detail). It's a distillation of one person's insights into=20 matters eternal, using a special case language he=20 hoped would pass on (naturally with twists and turns, as other users made their marks over time). Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:08:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Who's the Spy, Shagging You as You Watch, with a Table Spoon? <> Brian Hutchings 21-JUN-1999 16:08 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us [NB: the movie referred to in the header, has a tiny sequeof a scene, with the caption: Makeshift British Intelligence HQ. so, does director Meyers believe in this characterization?] hello; I just wanted to offer the hoary argument, that the Balkans War, temporarily stopped from becoming another setpiec for another "world" war, has an awful lot t'do with the ratcheting of the so-called free market; the "Boom" is as hollow a bombed-out building. I now quote, several dyscontiguous screens: Enter desired number and press Return: 9 Terminal Emulator Selection EIR Talks, June 16, 1999 Transcript (p2 of 55) Voice: The Queen turned crimson with fury. And after glaring at her for a moment like a wild beast, began screaming: "Off with their head! Off!" Tony Papert: Welcome to "EIR Talks." It's Wednesday, June 16th, 1999. My name is Tony Papert. Our title today is: "Off With Their Heads: The British Monarchy Plays the Terrorism Card." With me is EIR Counterintelligence director Jeff Steinberg, and EIR economics correspondent John Hoefle. As we head toward Fall 1999, a new ratchet of financial crisis is approaching. As in Fall 1988, it involves the danger of a Russian default and the collapse of hedge funds, possibly bringing down the whole system. This time one target is the Wall Street stock market. The British forced a war in Yugoslavia in March, to try to contain the financial crisis through war. But President Clinton and the Russian government managed to end the shooting in a way which the British didn't expect. Now, there's a worldwide fight on Balkan reconstruction. Real reconstruction in the Balkans, would pave the way -- press space for next page -- EIR Talks, June 16, 1999 Transcript (p7 of 55) world. You could probably call it "Kids with Kalashnikovs," where you've got younger and younger kids engaging in the most brutal kinds of mass-murder sprees. We saw it in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, under Pol Pot, where you had teenage kids and younger literally brainwashed into going out and, like zombies, killing fellow-citizens. More recently, we saw it in the Congo, where you had younger and younger kids being given guns and getting into these tribal wars where you've got the most brutal kinds of neighbors murdering neighbors. And Littleton, whether you like it or not, and probably most Americans will be repulsed at the idea that I'm saying America has anything in common with Cambodia or the Congo or areas like that. But the fact is, Littleton is no different than that. Maybe the toys are a little bit more high-tech that are producing this desensitization, this zombification of our youth. But it's the same phenomenon. And this is a form of terrorism. It's a more complicated an sophisticated phenomenon, but it is indeed another new face of -- press space for next page -- EIR Talks, June 16, 1999 Transcript (p10 of 55) about "irrational exuberance." But it's like the growth of the cancer. The situation is actually worse. Nothing has been solved. Tony Papert: So what's happening now? John Hoefle: What's happening now, is that there are rumors that more hedge funds are in trouble. It's certainly true that hedge funds have suffered tremendous losses. Right now, the hedge fund that's coming under the most serious rumor attack is Tiger Management, which at one point was a $20 billion hedge fund and is now somewhere around, depending on what story you believe, $12 to $13. Jeff Steinberg: John, could I ask a dumb question? Could you tell me what a hedge fund is? I mean, $20 billion is an awful lot of money to be just sort of floating out there. What are these things? John Hoefle: Well, a hedge fund is, by your textbook definition, a fund which engages in hedging. And of course hedging is that you bet $5 on black and $4 on red on the roulette wheel, and therefore your potential exposure--your potential loss--is only a dollar. That's what -- press space for next page -- EIR Talks, June 16, 1999 Transcript (p19 of 55) Reserve that does nothing but add zeroes on to the end of the money supply as fast as they can. And that's how they keep up with the bubble. Tony Papert: Are our government officials aware of the problem as you present it? John Hoefle: Yes. There are indications that for example President Clinton is aware, from statements he made at the National Press Club. [Videoclip of President Clinton at the National Press Club:] President Clinton: Because what happened was, in the last 50 years after world War II, when the so-called Bretton Woods instruments were developed, the IMF, the World Bank, and others designed to promote global trade and global investment. With the explosion of technology and the explosion of trade, more and more money had to move around the world. and then, as always happens, there came an independent market in money unrelated to the trade and -- press space for next page -- investment, so that now every year, every day, there will be about $1.5 trillion in trade per day, in goods and services, and the amount of money that moves--excuse me: $1.5 trillion a day in trade in money, which is roughly 15 times the daily volume of trade in goods and services. And that's the basic problem. [End videoclip] John Hoefle: He references $1.5 trillion a day in foreign exchange turnover, but that's only part of the problem. On top of that, there's another two and a half trillion dollars a day in derivatives, over-the-counter derivatives and exchange-traded derivatives, which puts the daily turnover at over $4 trillion a day. Now, if you add that up to a year, that's over a quadrillion dollars a year in financial turnover, a quadrillion being a thousand trillion versus around $11 trillion a year in actual foreign trade, in real -- press space for next page -- EIR Talks, June 16, 1999 Transcript (p21 of 55) foreign trade. So, virtually none of the economic activity that goes on is related to the real economy. It's all this speculative bubble gone wild. The financial system has become a casino. Now, at the center of this casino, is the City of London--the one-square-mile of the City of London, the "city within a city." And if there were ever a place whose streets were paved with blood, it's the City of London, which exists--this is Flea Headquarters; this is the heart of the parasite. Thirty-five percent of all the over-the-counter derivatives that get traded worldwide, get traded in the City of London, versus 17% in the United States. So there's twice the derivatives activity in the City of London that there is in the United States, even though a lot of the activity in London is done by U.S. banks and foreign banks. But it's the heart of the beast. And when the collapse occurs, that's where it's going to hit the hardest. But it is the nature of the system, this whole financial system and the derivatives market, this is a system run by the -- press space for next page -- EIR Talks, June 16, 1999 Transcript (p31 of 55) Jeff Steinberg: BP's now the largest domestic producer and distributor of oil in the United States, as I understand it; kind of like a new Redcoat invasion. John Hoefle: Yes. And so you have, of the three largest oil companies in the world, you have British Petroleum being one, and then Royal Dutch Shell being another, and then Exxon, which comes out of the Rockefeller interest, which is politically basically the same thing. So, this is a cartel. And you have also, for example, the string of telecommunications mergers--the phone companies, both the Baby Bells moving back together again, and also this phenomena of so-called privatization of Third World phone systems, where the idea is that after a crash, the people who have money are going to need telephones. So you position yourself to sell them that service. You take it out of the hands of the government, and you take control of it yourself. In Britain, it's even gone further with water, water systems being privatized, so that if you want water, you've got to pay one of these -- press space for next page -- EIR Talks, June 16, 1999 Transcript (p33 of 55) John Hoefle: Absolutely. And you have also for example the price of gold being so low. It's like the price of oil. You drive the price down, you shake out all the small players, and then the big cartels come in and assume more control. Jeff Steinberg: Now, who sets the gold price? I mean, is this something that just--the free market decides this, and people just aren't buying gold watches any more? I mean, how does this work? John Hoefle: Twice a day, a handful of people meet at the offices of N.M. Rothschild in London and set the gold price. I mean, you talk about a manipulated commodity, there it is. Jeff Steinberg: And isn't that also true for diamonds? I think there's a diamond cartel in London also? John Hoefle: Yes. Jeff Steinberg: So they're driving the price down to bankrupt the -- press space for next page -- EIR Talks, June 16, 1999 Transcript (p35 of 55) John Hoefle: Absolutely. It's a giant sucker play. You have all these Wall Street analysts, who basically don't understand anything about how the economy works, who you have put out all these statements about how wonderful the Internet stocks are, how wonderful this stock is, how wonderful that stock is. And all the mickeys go rushing into it, and the oligarchy pulls out its money, and uses it to increase their hold over the real economy. And when it all blows up, it's going to be the mickeys left holding the bag, and then they're going to be beholden to the cartels for their very existence. Tony Papert: Well, not if we have anything to say about it. John Hoefle: Well, that's true, because that leads to the third grouping, which is the nation-states, which, to the extent that the sovereign nation-states will exert their sovereignty and put these international bankers back under national control, then we can save the situation. We could have a financial reorganization, and we could -- press space for next page -- have a new renaissance. Jeff Steinberg: Meaning that we call the shot on who's really bankrupt here, and hold their feet to the fire and say "You're out of business, buddy, because we've got a bunch of governments that are going to actually put their people first." John Hoefle: Absolutely. What the United States government needs to do, is that President Clinton needs to hold a press conference and announce the international banking system is bankrupt as of this moment. We've put it into receivership, and now we're going to implement a rebuilding program. Jeff Steinberg: And to make sure people realize he's serious, and to cover his own back against assassination, I'd strongly urge that he have Lyndon LaRouche standing next to him at the press conference to introduce as his new chief economic advisor so the oligarchs will know that there's somebody there who knows how to beat them at their own game. -- press space for next page -- John Hoefle: Yeah, that's true. They're scared to death of Lyn, because he has demonstrated that he knows their game, he knows how to beat them, and has repeatedly beat them. And that's what you need. If you're going to declare war on the international bankers, you'd better have lots of ammunition. Tony Papert: Right. Now, Jeff, you went through all these incidents of terrorism over the past weeks at the beginning of the show. But the Cold War is over, the Soviet Union no longer exists. Who's running these things? Are they just spontaneous sociological phenomena? Jeff Steinberg: Well, Tony, I think it's very good that we actually preceded this question by discussing with John the nature of the financial crisis and who's rigging the game. Because with that in mind, it probably is more clear to people that what I'm going to say is that the same people who are rigging the game to survive this financial bubble explosion, are the ones who have also arrayed their capability for being able to deploy various forms of terrorism. Because the "big danger" is the nation-state. President Clinton -- press space for next page -- personifies, and will continue to personify for the next 18 months--'cause he's not out of office until January of the year 2001. So we've got a period of time when this crisis is going to play out when President Clinton is in power, and when he's demonstrated at least an inclination to put people firs, and defend the nation-state system against these oligarchs. So, it's London, to be very precise. The City of London and various assets that they've built over a long period of time, who run various of these terrorist capabilities. Tony Papert: Most Americans find that totally inconceivable, it seems. I mean, how can you demonstrate it? Jeff Steinberg: Well, let's start with some just simple hard facts on this case. There is one government in the world today, that assiduously defends its right to allow terrorists to operate on their soil, as long as they don't plot against that host-country, and that's Great Britain. -- press space for next page -- The fact is that the laws in Britain, up until just a few months ago, had no regulation preventing terrorists from plotting bombings, assassinations, kidnappings, you name it, as long as it wasn't being done against Britain or any other countries that were on Britain's friendly list. Tony Papert: Well, that's obviously very crooked. But is there any indication that they really knew what they were doing, and were doing this deliberately and it wasn't just some kind of coincidence or chance? Jeff Steinberg: Yes, two things. Number one, we have the proceedings of a debate that took place in the House of Commons. Back about a year and a half ago, a member of the Conservative Party introduced a bill to basically, for the first time in British history, ban plotting of foreign terrorism from British soil. And George Galloway, a member of the Labour Party in the House of Commons, a very close political ally of Prime Minister Tony Blair, blocked that bill from even reaching a vote. And Galloway gave a speech on the floor of -- press space for next page -- the House of Commons. EIR was the only publication in the world that published the full text of that speech, even though it was available from the website of the House of Commons. And Galloway said "Britain has always harbored people who, in some people's view, are terrorists." And his best example that he gave was that Karl Marx spent most of his adult life living in London. In fact, he was hosted by top-level figures in British intelligence and spent most of his time at the British Museum. And Galloway said "Why, the great tradition of Marxism worldwide would have died, had it not been for Britain's protection of Marx." And there's many, many countless examples since then. The second track, though, is that in the last three or four years, about a dozen governments have come forward publicly, either with public statements or in many cases with formal diplomatic demarches against the British government, because they were caught harboring terrorism. I'll go through the list. -- press space for next page -- EIR Talks, June 16, 1999 Transcript (p44 of 55) For example, Ocalan, the head of the Kurdish Workers Party, who is now on trial in Turkey, testified under oath at this own trial, that the British were openly--British intelligence, the British government--were openly supporting the PKK to carry out terrorism against Turkey, because of British geopolitical games in the Near East. So that's a pretty damning indictment from the head of a terrorist movement, saying "I got my instructions from top people in Britain." And indeed, the PKK's television and radio transmitters, which provide the marching orders to their terrorists in the field, has been based for along time in Britain. But in other cases, the control is more generic. For example, you've got really, I would say at this point, two major sources of the known terrorist organizations that have labels on them. One is the outgrowth of the 1979 to 1989 war in Afghanistan, the so-called Afghansis. And you had, during the Reagan-Bush period in the United States, during the Thatcher-Major period in Britain with the Israelis and others, heavy recruitment of young Islamic kids. -- press space for next page -- And really, these are people living in the most impoverished ghetto situations in places like North Africa, parts of the Middle East, being literally brainwashed into the idea that they are warriors in the Holy War against the "Great Satan." And they were shipped off to Afghanistan, 12-, 13-, 14-, 16-year-old kids, can't read or write, but yet, they are given sophisticated training in how to make bombs, how to plant mines, how to use sophisticated weapons. And so they became, over a 10-year-period, trained and combat-experienced killers. At the end of the Afghanistan War, when the Soviet troops marched back to Moscow, and we declared victory, these people were basically left on the human scrap-heap. And we know that the British began giving refuge to these characters in London, and organizations began forming in the various countries as these people came back home. And so you've got one big phenomenon which spreads out all over the globe, which is this Afghansi. The other key thing is that terrorism, you know, back maybe in the 50s, and the 60s and into the early 70s, -- press space for next page -- you could say Fidel Castro was the big sponsor along with Moscow and maybe during the Mao period China, big sponsors of liberation movements that spun out terrorist organizations. But the fact of the matter is that there is no Cold War, there is no Soviet Union. China is on a path towards post-Maoist, tremendous economic recovery and development and has no interest in this. And so you've got a phenomenon of narco-terrorism, where you have a trillion dollars a year in illegal drug trade worldwide. That trade was founded by the British. People may have a problem with that, but the fact is that history is history, and there was something in the Nineteenth Century called the Opium Wars. The British went to war with China to force opium addiction on China. They've continued that policy ever since. So in Latin America, and now in the Balkan region, you've got the growth of terrorist movements, so-called liberation groups, that make their money on the basis of participating in the drug trade. And this gives them phenomenal cash flows to buy, in many cases, more -- press space for next page -- sophisticated weapons than the governments that they're fighting against. Tony Papert: Now President Clinton is in the worst policy clash right at this minute with Great Britain of any American President I think since Franklin Roosevelt. And one of the--(brief tape break)--issues is the reconstruction of the Balkans, which we discussed earlier. He must be thinking back himself, to the history of American presidents who have been assassinated, which presidents had severe policy differences with the British. Why don't you discuss that for a second, if you could. Jeff Steinberg: There have been four presidents officially assassinated in U.S. history. There's a few other cases of people dying under mysterious conditions, that may or may not have been the result of poisoning, or something like that. But the four cases are President Lincoln, President Garfield, President McKinley, and -- press space for next page -- President Kennedy. And our staff of historians have gone back to the primary records, the source documentation on those four cases. And in all four instances, it is provable beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the British were responsible for the assassinations People may think that John Wilkes Booth was a "lone assassin," and who was upset over a failed personal relationship. But the fact is that after the assassination of Abraham Lincoln, there was a trial. There were people indicted. It was determined that the main people who ordered the assassination escaped the United States, went up to Canada, and eventually were given safe haven in London. The trial took place, people were found guilty. It's all there for anybody who wants to go to the historical archives or even just read some of the more comprehensive histories of the Lincoln assassination. It was the British. In fact, recently I was up in Montreal, Canada, and you go to the -- press space for next page -- Hudson's Bay Company, which was the cornerstone of British imperialism in the Western Hemisphere, and there's a bronze plaque on the front door, and it says "Through these portals passed Jefferson Davis, the Hero of the Confederacy." Davis was one of the people indicted and convicted for the Lincoln assassination plot. In the case of Kennedy, the same thing. There was a trial in New Orleans--not the Warren Commission, which was a cover-up; but Jim Garrison conducted an investigation, and with all due respect to Oliver Stone, he really didn't capture the real story in his movie "JFK." In fact, Montreal was the center of the conspiracy that Jim Garrison documented. He indicted a local New Orleans man, named Clay Shaw, as the point person for the team that was assembled to kill Kennedy and to finance the operation. But Shaw was merely a local gofer and employ and board member of a company based in Montreal, Canada, headed up by a famous World War II British Intelligence official named Major Louis Mortimer Bloomfield. -- press space for next page -- Bloomfield's credentials in Canada also extended right into the inner circle of the British monarchy. He was the co-founder of the World Wildlife Fund of Canada with Prince Philip. He was a founding member of Prince Philip and Prince Bernhard's 1,001 Club--in other words, an inner-circle figure in the British monarchy, and he was the bad man for the Kennedy assassination and for financing the attempted assassinations of President de Gaulle of France. John Hoefle: Well, this also raises the whole question of what is Britain, because there's this common misconception that Britain is a nation, and that in fact our political system is derived from that of Britain. But that's not really true, because the British Empire still remains today, and our system was founded as a direct attack on the British Empire. Jeff Steinberg: That's exactly right. And frankly, people--you say "it's the British," and people say "Oh, come on, they're a throwback, they're a relic. It's a bunch of pomp and circumstance around Buckingham Palace and nothing more than that." -- press space for next page -- Well, you've talked about the City of London aspect. But bear in mind that Britain has nothing to do with the people of England or Wales or Northern Ireland. Those people are treated like human refuse. If you look at the way the British conducted their experimentation on terrorism in Northern Ireland, they considered the Catholics in Northern Ireland to be fodder for their irregular warfare testing and training grounds. Tony Papert: Protestants too Jeff Steinberg: But the real Empire, what Queen Elizabeth II--let's put a very concrete name on it. She's not some old buddy that just sort of mumbles off in the corner. She is the center of this power structure, along with her husband, Prince Philip. What is she? She's the head of the British Commonwealth. That's 58 countries, a number of other dominions and colonies, 1.6 billion people. It's larger than the population of China. Within the British Commonwealth, you've got almost half of the land-mass of this planet. --Da Duke! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:58:13 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) <> Brian Hutchings 21-JUN-1999 16:58 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us Okay, maybe they were Secret Lovers (or he thought that HSMCoxeter'd give it some exposure to Earthians, or at least the Royal Faily !-) a lot of good it did --jilted?-- and I still fondly recall the time that I called HSMC at his house (I think, a servant had answered, or possibly a nurse, but let's just say, girlfriend), and when I asked him what he'd think of a term, tetrahedronometry, he helpfully *corrected* me, and referred me to the work pf Peiter Schoute, namely, his "polyedronometry". that was a good guess, but no cigar will be awarded. Loeb has certainly done a lot more, including with that Design Science series of books, and his number of that. (I finally realized, what the insignia for that series is; any guesses ?-) "points" are actually subvisible peas; "edges" are minimally toothpicks; facets can be thought of as "windows" and the interior is often quite solid, or at least hydraulically bagged (insideness). I think it was just fine, that Bucky ignored the nontrigonated *regular* shapes, because they are essentially the same, as duals (see the "new" model of the C-60 molecule). in doing so, however, he missed some things that are quite astounding, if not statically volumetric, of intertransformability, that are found in Hyspsicles (Dover's Euclid Book 14; the 15th book is not much & anon.). also, the dicta of "in pure principle" would seem to argue for actually taking them in hand, so to say. as for discreteness & continuity, they are like to halves of a walnut -- don't always insist upon the left half!... and I wouldn't confuse Bucky with anyone, unless I *were* wearing my glasses. I mean, I thought, I'd satisfy with chopping PI off, at the get-go; this is a *serious* project. thus quoth: The focus on edges has to do with a focus on relationships. "Solids" have no real reality in synergetics nomenclature, as discontinuity (discrete geometry) is the name of the --Da Duke! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:30:53 +0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: m vargas Subject: That's the one/ was DIY. In-Reply-To: <199906220405.MAA18401@ms15.hinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/IcosDomeLargeHangar.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:50:15 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) In-Reply-To: <199906212358.QAA02033@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:58:13 -0700, you wrote: ><> Brian Hutchings 21-JUN-1999 16:58 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > > Okay, maybe they were Secret Lovers (or he thought that > HSMCoxeter'd give it some exposure to Earthians, or > at least the Royal Faily !-) a lot of good it did --jilted?-- I have some of their correspondence. Cordial, technical. Coxeter branches into all areas of polytopal studies,=20 whereas Bucky is on a shorter leash, making do with what's central to his self-discipline. Coxeter is a geometer, Bucky has other cosmic fish to catch. > Loeb has certainly done a lot more, including > with that Design Science series of books, and > his number of that. (I finally realized, > what the insignia for that series is; any guesses ?-) I forget the insignia at the moment, none of the hard=20 covers in reach. > of the C-60 molecule). in doing so, however, > he missed some things that are quite astounding, if > not statically volumetric, of intertransformability, Agreed. You can use his writing as a bridge into a more comprehensive approach to geometry. It'll equip you with some useful tools and concepts before sending you forth into the wilds. It's more Tarzan's utility belt (or I=20 guess that was batman) than the Jungle itself (or was=20 that Gotham City). > they are like to halves of a walnut -- don't always insist > upon the left half!... and I wouldn't confuse Bucky with anyone, > unless I *were* wearing my glasses. The right half already gets plenty of emphasis. The=20 curriculum is awash in the metaphysics of infinitely=20 continuousness. I'm glad to have Bucky's voice bucking the current and don't begrudge him his polemics against an ocean of countervailing conditioning. > I mean, I thought, I'd satisfy with chopping PI off, > at the get-go; this is a *serious* project. Many mathematicians seem rather poor when it comes to this idea of "existence". We have machines for churning out=20 any number of digits, using whatever PI algorithm. But the corner philosopher wants to say "that number already exists in pure principle, in the Platonic realm, even if we as mortals never have access to such pure perfection." So we use a Greek letter at say "it IS". I prefer to=20 paint my PI symbol on the machine cranking out the=20 digits: "it DOES". I like a mathematics were we define our numbers as register values in computer chips, our operations according to the bitwise manipulations behind them (as specified by books=20 of standards). My numbers are 'int' 'float' 'double'=20 'long'... but never 'real'. These infinitely precise=20 'real' numbers seem more the imaginary concoctions of=20 metaphysicians, enslaved to their ruler: Infinity. =20 Root(2) is a function, and it returns a 'double' not a=20 'real' -- or let it keep running in the background if you=20 can spare the cycles. I agree with the proof that it won't=20 terminate, as designed (I don't deny incommensurability, nor did Bucky). We have two kinds of symbols then: =20 terminals and algorithmics. =46inite and discrete Universe has its appeal. > thus quoth: > The focus on edges has to do with a focus on relationships. > "Solids" have no real reality in synergetics nomenclature, > as discontinuity (discrete geometry) is the name of the > > --Da Duke! > http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:05:43 +0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: m vargas Subject: geodesic math In-Reply-To: <199906230405.MAA25547@ms15.hinet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" So, I went to this page and found a graphic representation of the doem I want to make. Can somebody tell me how to do the math to calculate the offset angle for the starplates to make it? >http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/IcosDomeLargeHangar.htm Thanks Malcolm Vargas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 00:25:35 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Rewritten synhome.html Comments: To: synergetics-l Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I changed my intro essay at the 'Synergetics on the Web' home page today. See: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html The old version is still accessible at: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/oldsynhome2.html Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:32:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: THE NORTH FACE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The latest info for The North Face, Inc: 407 Merrill Ave Carbondale, CO 81623 970-704-2300 They do not have a web page; however, a search will reveal many stores that carry their dome tents. Verified 6-23-99 through Hoover's Online http://www.ipocentral.com/ml_ipo/51292ml.html Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:39:07 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: geodesic math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Malcolm, See "Links/Domes/M/Math-Geometry/..." http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Links/Domes-M.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: m vargas Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 10:05 PM Subject: geodesic math > So, I went to this page and found a graphic representation of the doem > I want to make. Can somebody tell me how to do the math to calculate > the offset angle for the starplates to make it? > > >http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/IcosDomeLargeHangar.htm > > Thanks > > Malcolm Vargas > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 04:08:16 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: Seedpod Domes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I saw the seed pod dome in Carbondale last at herb Roan's home. I do not know what happened to it after that. That was in 1969 or so. IT should be still in Carbondale some where. His daughter would know. IT was the first waterman foldable that everyone has now made by bucky. Joe S Moore wrote: > Barry, > > Bucky called them "Flying Seed Pod" domes and I have categorized them under > "Foldable" domes. See "Links/Domes/F/Foldable/Washington University/ ". > > http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Links/Domes-F.htm > > Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sedcan > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 5:16 AM > Subject: Seedpod Domes > > > Do you know any seedpod domes that have been built recently? > > Very interested in this dome > > Barry Black > > Sedcan Constructions Pty Ltd. Sydney Australia > > sedcan@nsw.bigpond.net.au > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:52:33 -0400 Reply-To: bobwb@juno.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Burkhardt Organization: Tensegrity Solutions Subject: Tensegrity News MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've posted press releases for my latest tensegrity designs (an obelisk and a bean teepee) at http://www.channel1.com/users/bobwb/tenseg/obelisk2/release3.htm http://www.channel1.com/users/bobwb/tenseg/obelisk2/release4.htm Earlier in the spring I had an interesting discussion with Roger Tobie about Hugh Kenner's book Geodesic Math and How to Use It. It turns out there is a subtle error there. He claims (p. 10) that there are no regular T-prisms for n=6 and above. However it turns out if you connect the side tendon differently (skipping one or more struts instead of connecting it to the adjacent strut) regular prisms for any value of n are possible. The struts have to be awfully long and thin as n increases though. Interactively viewable models of 6-fold and 9-fold prisms are available with my tensegrity viewer at http://www.channel1.com/users/bobwb/tenseg/tview/tview.htm Bob Burkhardt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:50:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) MESSAGE from =urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU 23-JUN-1999 3:30 On Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:58:13 -0700, you wrote: ><> Brian Hutchings 21-JUN-1999 16:58 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > > Okay, maybe they were Secret Lovers (or he thought that > HSMCoxeter'd give it some exposure to Earthians, or > at least the Royal Faily !-) a lot of good it did --jilted?-- I have some of their correspondence. Cordial, technical. Coxeter branches into all areas of polytopal studies, whereas Bucky is on a shorter leash, making do with what's central to his self-discipline. Coxeter is a geometer, Bucky has other cosmic fish to catch. > Loeb has certainly done a lot more, including > with that Design Science series of books, and > his number of that. (I finally realized, > what the insignia for that series is; any guesses ?-) I forget the insignia at the moment, none of the hard covers in reach. > of the C-60 molecule). in doing so, however, > he missed some things that are quite astounding, if > not statically volumetric, of intertransformability, Agreed. You can use his writing as a bridge into a more comprehensive approach to geometry. It'll equip you with some useful tools and concepts before sending you forth into the wilds. It's more Tarzan's utility belt (or I guess that was batman) than the Jungle itself (or was that Gotham City). > they are like to halves of a walnut -- don't always insist > upon the left half!... and I wouldn't confuse Bucky with anyone, > unless I *were* wearing my glasses. The right half already gets plenty of emphasis. The curriculum is awash in the metaphysics of infinitely continuousness. I'm glad to have Bucky's voice bucking the current and don't begrudge him his polemics against an ocean of countervailing conditioning. > I mean, I thought, I'd satisfy with chopping PI off, > at the get-go; this is a *serious* project. Many mathematicians seem rather poor when it comes to this idea of "existence". We have machines for churning out any number of digits, using whatever PI algorithm. But the corner philosopher wants to say "that number already exists in pure principle, in the Platonic realm, even if we as mortals never have access to such pure perfection." So we use a Greek letter at say "it IS". I prefer to paint my PI symbol on the machine cranking out the digits: "it DOES". I like a mathematics were we define our numbers as register values in computer chips, our operations according to the bitwise manipulations behind them (as specified by books of standards). My numbers are 'int' 'float' 'double' 'long'... but never 'real'. These infinitely precise 'real' numbers seem more the imaginary concoctions of metaphysicians, enslaved to their ruler: Infinity. Root(2) is a function, and it returns a 'double' not a 'real' -- or let it keep running in the background if you can spare the cycles. I agree with the proof that it won't terminate, as designed (I don't deny incommensurability, nor did Bucky). We have two kinds of symbols then: terminals and algorithmics. Finite and discrete Universe has its appeal. > thus quoth: > The focus on edges has to do with a focus on relationships. > "Solids" have no real reality in synergetics nomenclature, > as discontinuity (discrete geometry) is the name of the > > --Da Duke! > http://www.tarpley.net - - - - - <> Brian Hutchings 24-JUN-1999 15:50 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us oh, but it *really* is-as-it-does; this gets "straight" to the focus upon linearity (or rulers with even graduation). the transcendental *ratio* (relationship) of pi is transcendental, when measured on a flat surface (i.e.the diameter of a great circle, measured *on* the sphere is a half of the circumference (as an angular or curvilinear measurement). it is certainly OK to have an algorith to "paint" your screen, and it will likely be done only so-many times, til it fits the monitor, but this is not quite the same as measuring some spheric-al object "down" to the error of your theodolyte. the sightline is straight, or slightly curved, and possibly "fractal" in propogation. the problem of the ratio gets rusty, if you take your "unit" as the circumference; where do you chop the endless zeroes? --Da Duke! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 00:32:07 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) In-Reply-To: <199906242250.PAA19020@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > (as an angular or curvilinear measurement). it is certainly OK > to have an algorith to "paint" your screen, and > it will likely be done only so-many times, til it fits the monitor, but > this is not quite the same as measuring some spheric-al object > "down" to the error of your theodolyte. These irrationals never came out of physical measurement or=20 instrumentation. They come from the algorithms used to treat these situations algebraically. The picture just sits there, giving you something to visualize while you crank out the=20 digits. Given discrete atomics, it's not good science to suppose PI=20 is discoverable in nature. We don't have any physical theories which go beyond much more than 10 digits of physical significance. PI, as an algorithmic, is the creature of symbolic processes,=20 not physical measurement per se. I agree that incommensurability is part of nature. The result is dynamic -- "eternal disquietude" in Bucky. The Heraclitian=20 view is not just that you never step in the same river twice, but that "river" never means exactly the same thing, from one moment to the next. There's no fixity in language, just a=20 dynamic balancing act, around no-stopping-point equilibrium (not our fate as mortals to rest in that novent). > the problem of the ratio gets rusty, > if you take your "unit" as the circumference; > where do you chop the endless zeroes? Smash a window. Nature is not in doubt about where to "chop" -- it all happens in an instant, just like bubbles forming. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:25:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) <> Brian Hutchings 24-JUN-1999 19:25 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us the ratio is "in pure principle", before you decide upon the "time-size" parameters of the object to be measured or dysplayed. irrationals & rationals do not exist as such, except as an agreed-upon protocol, from those Ancient Geeks. TV screens are measured by rational diagonals; if you are going to calculate pi, you have to choose your "spheric", so say a tetragon (one octahedral equator), then you have to emplace your diameter (unless you chose "sphere"): if the diameter is unit, the circumference is (...) root of 8, and pi = C/D is also that. of course, this is also in pure principle, not bothering with the materials of the "ruler" and the octahedron (hexagon) or "error-bars". I'm not saying that you pedagogically should not start with "finding the pith of a tetrahedron", or the several of them. however, embedded in the old Geek stuff is the all-time useful ideal of "circular action" (in synthetic constructions), as later developed by Cusa et al for inspection, seguing into the idea of "multiply connected circular action". in threading the diameter in some direction through the center (or, rather, through 2 opposite poles; "center" is not really as central of a concept in Universe, as is "axis"), we also did not worry, how much (or how) the "line was zig-zagging", nor the "edges" of the straight-strutted shape. htat is why it's often helpful to do the "constructions" on a sphere, because the shapes still fall out of the circular action (of compasses or of paper-folding and so on). but it is not to proscribe, doing them on a (flat-faceeted, say) tetrahedron (tetragon) -- but I would not know how to make a "polygonal action compasses"; eh? trigonal Frisbee (tm), any one? --Da Duke! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 04:06:03 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Fwd: E J Applewhite Report on the Zurich Exhibition In-Reply-To: <510ABEE7BE2@i1.iplan.co.za> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =46rom: Ed Applewhite Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:43:35 EDT Subject: EJA report on Zurich exhibit To: pdx4d@teleport.com E J Applewhite Report on the Zurich Exhibition: I was fortunate to attend last Friday, 18 June 1999, the opening of the=20 Zurich Museum fur Gestaltung's long-awaited exhibition of Buckminster=20 =46uller's artifacts. ("Gestaltung" =3D design). It is captioned as = "Your=20 Private Sky: R. Buckminster Fuller and the art of design science." What=20 follows is a purely personal appreciation. Allegra Fuller Snyder was there to help officially inaugurate the event.=20 Jaime Snyder, Bucky's architectural partners Shoji Sadao and Thomas Zung,= =20 Carl Solway of Cincinnati, and I, comprised the American delegation of=20 contributors and invitees. This event not only displays the whole corpus of Fuller's work but=20 critically defines it through the eyes of a succeeding generation of=20 European curatorial scholars, Claude Lichtenstein and Joachim Krausse. =20 With the collaboration of the Buckminsterfuller Institute in providing=20 more than 1000 artifacts, and with the documentation in the catalogs, the= =20 scope of the survey is virtually exhaustive. At a press conference we were asked why the exhibit hadn't opened in=20 America? My response was that America didn't deserve it: none of our art= =20 museums (even the Cooper-Hewitt) had displayed sufficient interest. =20 Apparently, only the Swiss had a museum institution committed to the=20 study of design in its broadest sense. The Museum fur Gestaltung proved=20 to be a very happy home for the most comprehensive collection of Fuller's= =20 artifacts ever to be organized. The display models, photographs, and=20 original holographs with their bilingual captions, the audiovisual=20 historical sequence keyed to the music of John Cage, and the 524-page=20 first-volume catalog of illustrations and critical comment are in every=20 sense worthy of Buckminster Fuller and his legacy, (A second=20 volume--Your Private Sky: Discourse"--will come out in August containing=20 writings by and about Fuller.) =20 How are Fuller's achievements reappraised in this survey which ventures=20 into not just technological, but scientific and philosophical, history? =20 Lichtenstein and Krause have addressed a whole broad sweep of=20 disciplinary concerns. I have abstracted from their joint introductory=20 essay (in a less than satisfactory translation to English) a few salient=20 observations and conclusions: --"Fuller did not strive centrifugally from the earth toward the=20 Universe, but rather sought the center of knowledge from outside. . . .=20 he spontaneously hit upoin the phrase 'Spaceship Earth' almost two=20 decades before the public saw the inspiring photographs from the NASA=20 missions to the moon--and characterized it as a closed ecological=20 system." He had seen the inhabitable land masses of our ocean as a=20 one-world island in a one-world ocean. "No wonder then that he also saw=20 the political activity on the archipelago 'from outside' and viewed it as= =20 an irrational turmoil of court intrigues, of representatives of=20 particular interests, of self-important people who purported to offer=20 insight but who could not, in fact, see at all." . . . ."He also regarded= =20 academic disciplines 'from outside,' less with admiration than with=20 curiosity." The various disciplines are not separate in nature and=20 should "simply be one field: how Nature builds." [Next is an account of the reception accorded the Dymaxion House.] =20 "...these appraisals were often condescending. In the USA, where=20 architects must be licensed, he was not permitted to construct buildings=20 under his name alone until well into old age." Fuller intended for=20 houses to be lightweight towers spanning the globe and reaching up into=20 the sky. "Who else saw architecture as Fuller does here? Not Tatlin, not= =20 El Lissitzky, not Le Corbusier. . . .Building becomes a strategic act of= =20 colonizing the earth ... where the possession of land is free of its=20 mythical claim on proprietary ownership of land and soil, a claim that=20 has always resulted in discord, war and destruction.. . . This means that= =20 the land remains available to others just as the sea is available to=20 others when we cross it in a ship.. . . His aphorism: 'In architecture,=20 form is a noun; in industry, form is a verb' was incomparably concise." =20 That became a major theme of the show. Then follows a two-page presentation of Fuller's rationale for the=20 Dymaxion Chronofile record and diary--his self-disciplining strategy of=20 experiment, "containing not only a chance of success but also of = failure." =46uller as an inventor: "Buckminster Fuller is known as the inventor of= =20 the geodesic dome. But that is not quite right. He invented it for=20 himself, it is true, but roughly 30 years after the engineer Walter=20 Bauersfeld had sought a construction for the Zeiss Planetarium in Jena. .= =20 . . . Nor did Fuller invent the octahedral-tetrahedral truss. It was=20 Alexander Graham Bell, who also decades before Fuller, had experimented=20 with the structure for kites. Finally, the principle of the multipolar=20 tensegrity structure was discovered by Kenneth Snelson. . . a stimulating= =20 discovery that Fuller had been anticipating in his thought.:" But these=20 concerns "miss the essence of Fuller's significance" which lies in "the=20 combination of various disciplines with an eye to solving a concrete=20 application. Thanks to his correlative interest, he brought things to=20 light that would otherwise remain hidden."=20 JITTERBUG (And now I get to what my appreciation of the exhibit is leading up to.) Except for a jitterbug model, the exhibit contains nothing of synergetic=20 geometry per se. There simply wasn't room for it, neither as geometrical= =20 displays nor programmatically. In the center of the exhibition floor=20 plan there is a model of closest-packed spheres generating their=20 cuboctahedral evolution. And there is also a robust, hands-on, 10-foot=20 articulating strut-and-rope jitterbug apparatus--irresistible to the=20 kids. =20 On the wall the caption reads: "JITTERBUG TRANSFORMATION: This means that= =20 the regular geometric solids known since antiquity are not statically=20 coexisting, but rather are related to each other as phases of a=20 transformation process. Findings such as these had long no real place in= =20 the academic world. Following decades of delay, the natural sciences=20 have since caught on to the concepts."=20 The exhibit catalog (p 276) explains that "He sought a 'geometry as=20 Nature uses it" and discovered the mathematical formula for the closest=20 packing of spheres. His discovery of the jitterbug transformation that=20 same year, 1948, was epoch-making. It states that regular geometric=20 bodies do not stand statically next to one another but they are subjected= =20 to various phases--tetrahedron, octahedron, icosahedron,=20 cuboctahedron--of a process of mutual transformation. Insights like=20 these seem not to have been imparted or put in perspective for some time=20 afterward. In some cases, confirmation of their significance came only=20 after Fuller's death." Now let me go back to the introductory essay where they are discussing=20 =46uller's inventions: "The problem of 'closest packing of spheres' was=20 already explored by Johannes Kepler, 300 years before Fuller. The=20 Platonic bodies are called that because the greatest philospher of=20 antiquity was interested in their properties, and not because of Fuller's= =20 geometric research, And the C-60 carbon molecule was named=20 'buckminsterfullerene'' after him, but he did not discover it. . . ." "It is particularly ironic that what is perhaps Fuller's most important=20 discovery, the Jitterbug Transformation, is also the one that for decades= =20 had no such parameters for application. Fuller took the name from a=20 popular dance of the '40s. (Is there any other discovery of such=20 significance for science and the humanities that explicitly took its name= =20 from the so-called trivial world of popular culture?) In the Jitterbug=20 Transformation, a cuboctahedron is placed over an icosahedron to form an=20 octahedron (which can be folded into a triangle). For 2000 years the=20 Platonic bodies stood statically and proudly next to one another, and=20 then, Fuller dicovered them and used the empirical model experiment of=20 his energetic-synergetic geometry to show that they were closely related=20 in structure, and that they could be understood as the phase transitions=20 of a transformative 'loop,' specifically, a periodic swinging back and=20 forth between the two 'end' phases. The demonstration of this was=20 striking and fascinatingly manifest, but the significance of the=20 discovery went unrecognized for some time. Only after Fuller's death=20 did the discovery fall under the spotlight in the context of research=20 into 'dirty crystals' and superconductors." To me, those passages were a crucial validation of synergetics. Before concluding their essay, Lichtenstein and Krausse explain how they=20 came to give the exhibit its name. "Your Private Sky": the=20 self-confidence with which Fuller said the sky under which he stood was=20 his sky, and encouraged us to do the same, is also the attidude of an=20 artist who produces something, not that of a scientist who recognizes=20 only what already exists." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:17:36 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Flying Seedpod Domes Comments: To: sedcan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry, The links worked for me a few minutes ago--maybe my or BFI's provider was down. Try Hoberman's site http://www.hoberman.com/fold/ . Also, I found 3 more refs: 'World Design Science Decade 65-75, Phase I, Doc 2' pages 51-2; WDSD 65-75 Ph 2 Doc 5' pages 105-13; and a book in the Washington Univ library (http://spokane.wustl.edu/ )entitled 'A Record of the Geodesic Experiment Performed by Students of the Washington U School of Architecture Under the Direction of R B Fuller, St Louis, MO, 12-54'. Do a search under "Buckminster". To the best of my knowledge, Hoberman and Bob Gillis (http://www.shelter-systems.com/homepage.html) are the only ones doing any R&D on Folding Geodesic Domes. Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: sedcan To: Joe S Moore Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 3:44 PM Subject: Re: Flying Seedpod Domes > Unable to open any files under foldable structures. > Do you know if there have been any built that are working any where? > Barry Black > Sedcan Constructions Pty Ltd. Sydney Australia > sedcan@nsw.bigpond.net.au > > ---------- > From: "Joe S Moore" > To: "sedcan" > Subject: Re: Seedpod Domes > Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:09:59 -0700 > > Barry, > > Bucky called them "Flying Seed Pod" domes and I have categorized them under > "Foldable" domes. See "Links/Domes/F/Foldable/Washington University/ ". > > http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Links/Domes-F.htm > > Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: sedcan > To: > Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 5:16 AM > Subject: Seedpod Domes > > > Do you know any seedpod domes that have been built recently? > > Very interested in this dome > > Barry Black > > Sedcan Constructions Pty Ltd. Sydney Australia > > sedcan@nsw.bigpond.net.au > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:46:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Fwd: E J Applewhite Report on the Zurich Exhibition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any chance of buying a copy of the 524-page first-volume "Catalog of Illustrations and Critical Comment'? Does the Zurich Museum fur Gestaltung have a web page? Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Kirby Urner Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 9:06 PM Subject: Fwd: E J Applewhite Report on the Zurich Exhibition > From: Ed Applewhite > Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:43:35 EDT > Subject: EJA report on Zurich exhibit > To: pdx4d@teleport.com > > > E J Applewhite Report on the Zurich Exhibition: > (Huge snip) ... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:55:32 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: BUCKY EXHIBIT IN SWITZWELAND MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bucky Exhibit at the Museum of Design, Zurich, Switzerland: http://www.museum-gestaltung.ch/MfGZ_e/E_indexF.html Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:52:19 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: GLOSSARY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, You're right! I have the definitions for macro & micro reversed. http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Glossary/GlossaryM.htm The correction will be in my next update (hopefully before Christmas). Thank you VERY much, Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:47:55 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: GLOSSARY MESSAGE from ="List 25-JUN-1999 10:41 Michael, You're right! I have the definitions for macro & micro reversed. http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Glossary/GlossaryM.htm The correction will be in my next update (hopefully before Christmas). Thank you VERY much, Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ - - - - - <> Brian Hutchings 25-JUN-1999 10:47 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us *what* definitions of macro & micro? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:59:11 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) In-Reply-To: <199906250225.TAA20303@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 19:25:24 -0700, you wrote: ><> Brian Hutchings 24-JUN-1999 19:25 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > the ratio is "in pure principle", > before you decide upon the "time-size" parameters > of the object to be measured or dysplayed. Right. Which is why you shouldn't be talking about time/size measurement of naturally occuring phenomena, such as drawings of circles or spheres (or actual constructions of any kind). As to whether what you imagine is "perfect", I'd warn you=20 against getting bogged down in the semantics of private=20 ostensibles -- read your Wittgenstein and drop any appeals to 'what only I can see'. > irrationals & rationals do not exist as such, > except as an agreed-upon protocol, from those Ancient Geeks. The protocol of 'real numbers' (in which the irrational and rational co-star) was developed long post ancient Greek times of course. > we also did not worry, how much (or how) the "line was zig-zagging", You have the freedom to define a geometry wherein the lines zig zag "in pure principle". Likewise pure continuity may be defined=20 *out* of the picture "in pure principle". There's nothing which=20 dictates to our imaginations that our geometry can't be full of holes -- if that's how we want it. =20 In the case of synergetics, the idea was to drop the Greek axioms=20 and start with a new set of definitions which trace more to=20 Democritus than Euclid, i.e. the irreducible concept is of discrete,=20 islanded events, with nothing purely continuous to connect them. =20 Nothing illegal about going that route, and you may end up with=20 models more closely in synch with natural phenomena, because your=20 idealization doesn't take a condescending "I know better" attitude=20 toward physical Universe. The axiometers are in love with their idealization, which stems from a ghostly metaphysics mired in the ancient past. Synergetics aims to be more scientific, paying attention to the needs of=20 experimentalists who need to articulate about "points" which are, in fact, dimensional (e.g. atoms). Start with phenomena and work back to what definitions you might need (synergetics as a brand of phenomenology -- a senior thesis waiting to happen). But for all its commitment to stark realism, Synergetics gets=20 written off as "other worldly" in favor of clinging to what we=20 learned in grade school, when our defenses were still weak, and=20 the ideologues had their greatest power over us. Rather than=20 subscribe to more realistic definitions, we pass along our=20 "metaphysics of infinity" to a next generation of gullible=20 buyers, while meanwhile pointing at unbelievers as heretical or superstitious. Somewhat hypocritical if you ask me. I think the 'real numbers' should be taught as a branch of metaphysics, not passed off as 'the one true way to go' as your more dogmatic brand of mathematician seems to think warranted (so much brow- beating of students who dare to question their authority to=20 define what the ground rules must be). Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:37:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) <> Brian Hutchings 25-JUN-1999 18:37 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us it'd all be so simple, if all new computers were loaded with a few-million bits of pi in their ROM, to be truncated at whim. I should just leave it at the level of fuzzy logic, "oh, dear; I'd guess that ratio to be *about* pi. would you concur, Biff?" the algorithm of Leibniz can be stopped at any time, as it usually has in the pas'd, but this doesn't make the decimal (in whatever base) representation, any *less* transcendental. on the other hand, that's one of the reasons that the base of e is so handy, even if the base of pi is not -- it makes a great exponent! naturally we'll have to deal with the precision of the arithmetic in the unit, if we should need to "put into practice" our formulary with pi, to convert the transcendental ratio symbolized into a chunk (or make it anew "to specification" each time, according to our "spheric" and "ruler" and the shakiness of our hands, with arbitrary-precision ware (like Leibniz'), and so on). however, the dynamical average is certainly going to be pi --the classically "transcendental" pi-- like if you're spinning the "spheric" on its axis (or if it just is spinning), and that *a priori*, just about pi. while I'm not all het-up on "real" numbers, as per the "new math" fad of Bourbaki et al of the '60s til now, and their derision of the wordproblemma & models in general, I don't see why we have to be totally pointillistic on "fintite digits", given that "atoms" are also waves, or patterns of interference therein. OK, who knows the billionth decimal place of i ?? --Candidate in Tow! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:55:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) <> Brian Hutchings 25-JUN-1999 18:55 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us well, this is the part that's funny, when you consider the "always & only coincidence" of islanded compression & continuous (huh?) tension; or, unit tension in Universe? that's Bucky's (and Snelson's) biggest hit, and still plenty mysterioso!... and that is not to preclude the utility of "billiard ball" mechanics in "particle physics", even unto the "force carriers" and so on -- but it may just be a big, fuzzy metaphor, at root. his second biggest hit (in pure principle) was the idea that the "C-squared" of Einstein's equivalence, really can be thought-of as areal, as the expanding spheric-al wavefront of light (in an isotropical, dead medium, or a really hard-sucked vacuum, more or less ... well, I guess, we'll have to re-evaluate our symbolical pi, quite often .-) thus quoth: Democritus than Euclid, i.e. the irreducible concept is of discrete, islanded events, with nothing purely continuous to connect them. --Candidate in Tow! http://www.tapley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:16:34 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Michael S. Mitchell" Subject: Re: GLOSSARY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your right hutch, - what macro and micro? :-)$#*@%_><"?/|||||||||||\/\/\/\/\/\~';:.>>>.... There is no difference it is all the same. " unitivity"! (c) 1999 MSM ';- ) Brian Hutchings wrote: > MESSAGE from ="List 25-JUN-1999 10:41 > Michael, > > You're right! I have the definitions for macro & micro reversed. > http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Glossary/GlossaryM.htm > > The correction will be in my next update (hopefully before Christmas). > > Thank you VERY much, > > Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > - - - - - > > <> Brian Hutchings 25-JUN-1999 10:47 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > *what* definitions of macro & micro? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:56:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: GLOSSARY <> Brian Hutchings 26-JUN-1999 15:56 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us "Duh." was not the answer I was looking for, Cap'n Mitch, and Analtivity was not the arena (because there's only room for one in that cavity, and barely enough oxygen for him !-) I still want to see those daffynitions of macro & micro. thus quoth: > You're right! I have the definitions for macro & micro reversed. > http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Glossary/GlossaryM.htm (you wouldn't believe how pain-in-the-'tivity it is, still, for me to grab those links, although I'm working on't.) --Candidate in Tow! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb/htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 02:35:23 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) In-Reply-To: <199906260137.SAA24489@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:37:17 -0700, you wrote: ><> Brian Hutchings 25-JUN-1999 18:37 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > it'd all be so simple, if all new computers were loaded > with a few-million bits of pi in their ROM, > to be truncated at whim. I should just leave it > at the level of fuzzy logic, "oh, dear; > I'd guess that ratio to be *about* pi. would you concur, Biff?" A few million bits is mere spit on my shoe compared to the ocean of infinity. It's not really any "more accurate"=20 (compared to infinity) than the 15 or so digits we use=20 today (or is by an infinitly small amount). > the algorithm of Leibniz can be stopped at any time, Ramanujan's too... > as it usually has in the pas'd, but this doesn't make > the decimal (in whatever base) representation, > any *less* transcendental. on the other hand, > that's one of the reasons that the base of e is so handy, > even if the base of pi is not -- it makes a great exponent! Yes. And I have no quarrel with any of this. Fuller's=20 claim was that nature is not using PI. Not really all that controversial. > naturally we'll have to deal with the precision > of the arithmetic in the unit, if we should need > to "put into practice" our formulary with pi, > to convert the transcendental ratio symbolized into a chunk (or > make it anew "to specification" each time, > according to our "spheric" and "ruler" and the shakiness > of our hands, with arbitrary-precision ware (like Leibniz'), > and so on). however, The point is natural phenomena don't fit the bill for=20 "infinite precision" in this sense. If you had "perfect PI", it'd be an approximation next to this real world=20 sphere, which is whatever it is (an energetic phenomenon). > the dynamical average is certainly going to be pi > --the classically "transcendental" pi-- like > if you're spinning the "spheric" on its axis (or > if it just is spinning), and that *a priori*, > just about pi. "Dynamic average" sounds like empirical measurement again. PI is not an empirically derived result. It stems for algorithms with no break point in principle, infinite do loops. Lots of useful symbols come hyperlinked to=20 such. Use 'em every day (so did Bucky of course --=20 'Synergetics' is replete with radical signs). > while I'm not all het-up on "real" numbers, > as per the "new math" fad of Bourbaki et al of the '60s til now, > and their derision of the wordproblemma & models in general, > I don't see why we have to be totally pointillistic > on "fintite digits", given that "atoms" are also waves, > or patterns of interference therein. We don't have to do anything. We can keep the real numbers exactly as is. The point is we can have more than one=20 discourse going in parallel (or in convergence/divergence to use an alternative paradigm), in math just like in the humanities. It's not a matter of everyone agreeing on=20 the "one true lingo". "Real numbers" and the metaphysics surrounding them are just fine the way they are. But that doesn't ipso facto have anything to do with the validity of synergetics (which may be demerited for other reasons, such as lack of self-consistency -- but that'd be another thread). > OK, who knows the billionth decimal place of i ?? i^i is a real number, I suppose you know (Euler did). Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 02:38:38 GMT Reply-To: urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) In-Reply-To: <199906260155.SAA24514@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > it may just be a big, fuzzy metaphor, at root. So may be Universe, ever think of that? > his second biggest hit (in pure principle) was the idea that > the "C-squared" of Einstein's equivalence, really can > be thought-of as areal, as the expanding spheric-al wavefront > of light (in an isotropical, dead medium, or > a really hard-sucked vacuum, more or less ... well, > I guess, we'll have to re-evaluate our symbolical pi, > quite often .-) Given the discrete nature of the photon, I doubt a purely=20 continuous notion of PI is required, even for an expanding "sphere" of pure light energy. Again, it's not either/or. If we find synergetics a useful modeling language for visualizing about energy, that doesn't mean an invalidation of whatever we're doing without that=20 utility. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:09:18 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) <> Brian Hutchings 27-JUN-1999 8:09 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us Given the discrete nature of the photon, I doubt a purely continuous notion of PI is required, even for an expanding "sphere" of pure light energy. isn't that a rather startling propposition? do we even know the shape of the wavefront (given that it is centrally symmetrical, that is to say, in a "homogenous, isotropic" medium, maybe thoroughly dead (just to be sure) or at least"isodynamic" (?). since in every second, the wave increases in areal magnitude (not to say a thing about its "structure") by 186000*PI*D, I think, how does the shape change, spheric-ally? --Candidate in Tow! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:57:34 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Bowling for Pi (was: The City Resolution on Accounting) <> Brian Hutchings 27-JUN-1999 14:57 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us oops; that was 186000*PI*D SQUARE MILES of surface-increment per second. anyone can multiply by the "unit trigonal" conversion-factor (or divide that by 4, to get the area of the unit tetrahedron, or some thing like that). thus saith: since in every second, the wave increases in areal magnitude (not to say a thing about its "structure") by 186000*PI*D, I think, how does the shape change, --Candidate in Tow! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:39:02 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: GRAND STRATEGY Comments: cc: felix szeto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My summary of R Buckminster Fuller's "Grand Strategy": http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Strategy/GrandStrategy.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:20:06 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Anderson Subject: Blending Functions and Projecting Geodesic Patches MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC27D.8AA62F40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC27D.8AA62F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A new geodesic paper... http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/blending An exploration into the blending functions which are used to make = connecting superprojected and subprojected patches. Blending functions = can take many forms and create interesting shapes. - Dave Anderson http://w3.one.net/~monkey ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC27D.8AA62F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A new geodesic paper...
 
    http://w3.one.net/~= monkey/geodesics/blending
 
An exploration into the blending = functions which=20 are used to make connecting superprojected and subprojected patches. = Blending=20 functions can take many forms and create interesting = shapes.
 
- Dave Anderson  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
 
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEC27D.8AA62F40-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 06:09:31 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: felix szeto Subject: Re: GRAND STRATEGY Comments: To: joemoore@cruzio.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_272dfe3d_569118a1$5974b116" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_272dfe3d_569118a1$5974b116 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_3a4b059f_569118a1$5974b116" ------=_NextPart_001_3a4b059f_569118a1$5974b116 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Joe: Prologue: all the Teachers in School fell in love with you...listening to your rhetoric, like the Summmary of Grand Strategy by joemoore@cruzio.com. They were using Juno E-mail since 1994 for slandering me to various sources for furthering extortions-end, and stalking with relentlessness too! Why am I telling you this? It have the look of being very up front and personal! That is, why cannot anybody relate to this. What does it have had to do with the American Penal System, or what does it have been doing with Allegra and the Movie Taciturn Effort of American Media, simultaneously? Because now, everything doesn't look so impractical where I'm just a guinea-pig...by prurient standards-of-women and Con-men. Here has the other-another methodology...larceny, or not. The schlepping standard. What if the total-sum of all the Grand Strategies is a "seeing into Looking Glass" such as in the Alice in Wonderland...in-kind, but for Mathematics and Technological Consultations, from another OT, whomever that maybe? What in that looking, we could ask for anything we wanted as grand-strategem? That Looking Glass Strategy for replacement-math is the last E-mail letter from this writer...knowing the only Visual Language for (OT) available in the whole-world...that will communicate with Other Terrestrials in Other Worlds without the Interpretor Droids, a cultural-earth juxtaspositioning. And, who then have since successfully completed Domes and the aftermath of the Technologies! A person would really had had a Mental Disorder not to realize they built this Dome Technology centuries-ago in other worlds! OT's are very agrarian...WITHOUT...the land or terraces. Because, their hunter-gatherer instincts have disappeared long-ago, from disuse. What? That's what alarms the Intelligence Communities around this planet...and furthermore! Why? (...that's the Advancement Subject will be dealt-with...later, with our respective-governments too.)...still with me? But, the most qualifying statement is not control-in-nature, such as; consequently, Communism or Totalitarians or Republican-something, it's what does it have to do with people on Earth and their lost agrarianism-roots? It's talking about Angels or Spirits from somewhere other than Earth, things that do not exist, as we know it. That...now can make this writer a candidate for the "lunie bin", if he's not careful. So... Enclosure: it's the look of Communism on American Soil that the writer is so sensitive-to. Writer has lost five generations of family-members to War in Other Lands, disseminating families of Women, or to-just plain ethnoligical-trances of Wanderlust of Earth! "Geneology.com" does not seem to exist any more whereby writer can just pick-up someone, such as his nine lost Uncles in the San Francisco area! Or put it another way, when does all that rhetoric of Practical Abundance have make my sister stop sleeping with my brother...when there (i.e., it's the outcome of lost agrarianism, cynacism, with Hunter Gatherer Control in Outer Space). It's a Caucasian Unwitting Phenomenon. Consciously, what does it take to realize there is probably no quentissential White Look (White Brothers) in Image for Space. Nobody suggesting Blacks...or anything else, too. Another words, in the replacement Agrarianism, the jargon goes-to Privacy Wishes of each of these (e.g., anybody still wishes to have ten children and forget the problems of scarcity, with plenty of occupations)...the twelve replaceable Energy Resources, population growing to two-times and three-times by 2010 and how it's circumvented if at all, or the twelve percent of the knowable...of humanity using all available technology, wisely. Of what's likely,the population issue is probably wrong too! As example, because hunting-gathering requirements has Allegra as living proof of what's possible. She says to me, "what do you expect me to do...etc?" It's the "country mouse" versus the "city mouse" in her guises, not knowing, without information. From these, she proceeds thinking Agrarianism instinctually dead...anyway. It's a long story. Writer has NASA Community to contact tomorrow about Protocol Language in Micro-waves for Mars Lander. How "long" is in "short", et cetera. As another example, the Megellan Satellite was probably an unknowing act of aggressian because of the gold-disc...white-looking...for false-god? Sorry. The statement about Mars' Aphelion will appease the NASA Community, about what's necessary (i.e., it can make a thousand page treatise easily...about Celestial Navigation...from here to outskirts of Jupitor...the now changes of protoplasm-lattice for ion-wave)! How, by the same evidence of space-clouds and particles (the very thing that confuses them), that the Galaxies are well-ordered...and NOT at all lumpy! From superior technique. Later. Something writer has to do! Wish payments were more, likely. Epilogue: Joe. you can forward this discretely for discussion...if you want. I trust you...and generally always have. YOUR'RE NOT A JUDAS... Still, looking for a sympathetic Chemist...lost Cousin-doctor Doris Qwon at UCLA: somebody I grew up with since she's four years old. What has trouble understanding, that she's nothing more than a Wannabee White Woman. Now cannot handle multiple marriages, from this formidable culture, from subtle apartheid. That's her hunter-gatherer security-motive! YOUR OLD BUDDY: FLEX@HOTMAIL.COM PS--Reworking the Internet for Graphics and streamlining helps... _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_3a4b059f_569118a1$5974b116 Content-type: text/html
Dear Joe:

   Prologue: all the Teachers in School fell in love with you...listening to your rhetoric, like the Summmary of Grand Strategy by joemoore@cruzio.com. They were using Juno E-mail since 1994 for slandering me to various sources for furthering extortions-end, and stalking with relentlessness too! Why am I telling you this?

   It have the look of being very up front and personal! That is, why cannot anybody relate to this. What does it have had to do with the American Penal System, or what does it have been doing with Allegra and the Movie Taciturn Effort of American Media, simultaneously? Because now, everything doesn't look so impractical where I'm just a guinea-pig...by prurient standards-of-women and Con-men. Here has the other-another methodology...larceny, or not. The schlepping standard.

   What if the total-sum of all the Grand Strategies is a "seeing into Looking Glass" such as in the Alice in Wonderland...in-kind, but for Mathematics and Technological Consultations, from another OT, whomever that maybe? What in that looking, we could ask for anything we wanted as grand-strategem?

   That Looking Glass Strategy for replacement-math is the last E-mail letter from this writer...knowing the only Visual Language for (OT) available in the whole-world...that will communicate with Other Terrestrials in Other Worlds without the Interpretor Droids, a cultural-earth juxtaspositioning. And, who then have since successfully completed Domes and the aftermath of the Technologies! A person would really had had a Mental Disorder not to realize they built this Dome Technology centuries-ago in other worlds!

   OT's are very agrarian...WITHOUT...the land or terraces. Because, their hunter-gatherer instincts have disappeared long-ago, from disuse. What? That's what alarms the Intelligence Communities around this planet...and furthermore! Why? (...that's the Advancement Subject will be dealt-with...later, with our respective-governments too.)...still with me?

   But, the most qualifying statement is not control-in-nature, such as; consequently, Communism or Totalitarians or Republican-something, it's what does it have to do with people on Earth and their lost agrarianism-roots? It's talking about Angels or Spirits from somewhere other than Earth, things that do not exist, as we know it. That...now can make this writer a candidate for the "lunie bin", if he's not careful. So...

   Enclosure: it's the look of Communism on American Soil that the writer is so sensitive-to. Writer has lost five generations of family-members to War in Other Lands, disseminating families of Women, or to-just plain ethnoligical-trances of Wanderlust of Earth! "Geneology.com" does not seem to exist any more whereby writer can just pick-up someone, such as his nine lost Uncles in the San Francisco area! Or put it another way, when does all that rhetoric of Practical Abundance have make my sister stop sleeping with my brother...when there (i.e., it's the outcome of lost agrarianism, cynacism, with Hunter Gatherer Control in Outer Space). It's a Caucasian Unwitting Phenomenon. Consciously, what does it take to realize there is probably no quentissential White Look (White Brothers) in Image for Space. Nobody suggesting Blacks...or anything else, too.

   Another words, in the replacement Agrarianism, the jargon goes-to Privacy Wishes of each of these (e.g., anybody still wishes to have ten children and forget the problems of scarcity, with plenty of occupations)...the twelve replaceable Energy Resources, population growing to two-times and three-times by 2010 and how it's circumvented if at all, or the twelve percent of the knowable...of humanity using all available technology, wisely. Of what's likely,the population issue is probably wrong too! As example, because hunting-gathering requirements has Allegra as living proof of what's possible. She says to me, "what do you expect me to do...etc?" It's the "country mouse" versus the "city mouse" in her guises, not knowing, without information. From these, she proceeds thinking Agrarianism instinctually dead...anyway. It's a long story.

   Writer has NASA Community to contact tomorrow about Protocol Language in Micro-waves for Mars Lander. How "long" is in "short", et cetera. As another example, the Megellan Satellite was probably an unknowing act of aggressian because of the gold-disc...white-looking...for false-god? Sorry. The statement about Mars' Aphelion will appease the NASA Community, about what's necessary (i.e., it can make a thousand page treatise easily...about Celestial Navigation...from here to outskirts of Jupitor...the now changes of protoplasm-lattice for ion-wave)! How, by the same evidence of space-clouds and particles (the very thing that confuses them), that the Galaxies are well-ordered...and NOT at all lumpy! From superior technique. Later. Something writer has to do! Wish payments were more, likely.

   Epilogue: Joe. you can forward this discretely for discussion...if you want. I trust you...and generally always have. YOUR'RE NOT A JUDAS...


   Still, looking for a sympathetic Chemist...lost Cousin-doctor Doris Qwon at UCLA: somebody I grew up with since she's four years old. What has trouble understanding, that she's nothing more than a Wannabee White Woman. Now cannot handle multiple marriages, from this formidable culture, from subtle apartheid. That's her hunter-gatherer security-motive!

YOUR OLD BUDDY:
FLEX@HOTMAIL.COM

PS--Reworking the Internet for Graphics and streamlining helps...





Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit www.msn.com
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Language in Micro-waves for Mars Lander. How "long" is in "short", et cetera. As another example, the Megellan Satellite was probably an unknowing act of aggressian because of the gold-disc...white-looking...for false-god? Sorry. The statement about Mars' Aphelion will appease the NASA Community, about what's necessary (i.e., it can make a thousand page treatise easily...about Celestial Navigation...from here to outskirts of Jupitor...the now changes of protoplasm-lattice for ion-wave)! How, by the same evidence of space-clouds and particles (the very thing that confuses them), that the Galaxies are well-ordered...and NOT at all lumpy! From superior technique. Later. Something writer has to do! Wish payments were more, likely. --Candidate in Tow! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm