From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Oct 12 10:56:00 2002 Return-Path: Received: from acsu.buffalo.edu (deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.57]) by linux00.LinuxForce.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian -4) with SMTP id g9CEtwmd017861 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:55:58 -0400 Message-Id: <200210121455.g9CEtwmd017861@linux00.LinuxForce.net> Received: (qmail 29686 invoked from network); 12 Oct 2002 14:55:57 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (listserv@128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 12 Oct 2002 14:55:57 -0000 Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 10:55:54 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8e)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG0008" To: Chris Fearnley Status: O Content-Length: 797645 Lines: 18808 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:25:37 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Chairman George at Watergate! <> Brian Q. Hutchings 31-JUL-2000 21:25 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us wow; I need to read less newspaper. the most outrageous "behind-scenes" stuff was paraded in the Times, Sunday and today, from guys who'd both worked-on the Raegan-Bush campaigns, in the guise of portraying the reality of the conventions, or lack thereof. today's guy, Richard V. Allen (Reagan's first NSC director?) purported to be to blame for brokering Sir George into the deal. admittedly, the alternative which this grouping defeated, at the last moment, was a scurrilous "co-presidency" with Ford, for the purpose of weaseling Kissinger into the NSC *as its head* (as he had "taken himself out" of the running for State, the sly, bad boy); unfortunately, K's former underling & rival, George, effectively did the same thing, by getting Reagan to sign EO#12333, in the first year. (see the relavent chapter, below. also, cahpter 12, about Chairman George !-) the most ridicuolous quote (I forget in which one, as well as the name of the other politico) was from Meese, I think, about how he didn't do anyhting to counter K, because "he was just a boy from Sacramento, and Henry'd negotiated with Mao!" the most dysgusting part was the other politico, mealy-mouthing about the wonder of the new, transformed convention of '96, as a luanchpad for the dynamic duo to make their spiel. that, and the dysingenuous nonreason for these changes: the early primaries. so, What? --Bum Equipment! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:00:01 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Subject: *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the semi-monthly "How To" file about the GEODESIC list. It has info on content and purpose of the list, as well as subscription info, posting instructions, etc. It should prove useful to new subscribers, as well as those who are unfamiliar with LISTSERV operations. This message is being posted on Tue Aug 1 00:00:01 PDT 2000. If you are tired of receiving this message twice per month, and are reading bit.listserv.geodesic through USENET news, then you can enter this subject into your KILL/SCORE file. If you're reading through email, you can set up a filter to delete the message. Both of these tricks are WELL worth learning how to do, if you don't know already. And isn't it about time to learn something new? Isn't it always? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEODESIC is a forum for the discussion of the ideas and creations relating to the work of R. Buckminster (Bucky) Fuller. Topics range from geodesic math to world hunger; floating cities to autonoumous housing, and little bit of everything in between. On topic discussion and questions are welcome. SPAM and unsolicited promotions are not. (Simple, eh?) ----------------------- To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and in the body of your letter put the line: SUB GEODESIC When you want to post, send mail to GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU ******NOT***** to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU! LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is for subscriptions, administrivia, archive requests, etc. GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is the actual discussion group. Anything sent to GEODESIC will go to all members. (And you don't want to look like a jerk having everyone see your "SUB GEODESIC John Q. Public" command! ;^) ) This list is also linked to USENET in the group bit.listserv.geodesic If you want to receive copies of everything you send to the list, use the command SET GEODESIC REPRO. If you DON'T want copies, use SET GEODESIC NOREPRO. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TO SIGN OFF THE LIST: Simply send a message to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and in the body of your letter put the line: SIGNOFF GEODESIC You should receive a confirmation note in the mail when you have been successfully removed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LIST ARCHIVES: - Reference.COM has begun archiving this list as of: Jan. 4, 1997 - Searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=GEODESIC@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu And of course, Listserv itself is keeping archives of the list, dating back to June, 1992. Send a note to listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with this message in the BODY of the note: INDEX GEODESIC You can get help on other Listserv commands by putting the line HELP into the body of the note. (Can be in the same message.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe and unsubscribe.) Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 06:45:29 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: apolitical MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Brian- Explain again (as simply as you can, please, I'm a bit thick) why you say apolitical is just an unregistered party. To me, politics is about arguing and apolitical to me is not to argue. How can they be the same thing, or did I misunderstand you? If I don't participate in the debate, how is that somehow a form of participation? Dick ===== Dick FischbeckHubdome(copyright2000)/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>Do your own thinking. UTOPIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 06:58:15 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: patents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Have there been any, significant or otherwise, geodesic patents since Bucky? And what are the pros and cons of copyrights verses patents again? I have something I'd like to test out with you all, but I hesitate. I am concerned about being ripped off. And worse, having the idea lost, sabotaged or discredited from the onset. Bucky got his patents he said to insure accessibility to the whole planet. I'm not saying my design is on par with his work. I am saying I think it is important enough to treat with care. Thanks up front. Dick ===== Dick FischbeckHubdome(copyright2000)/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>Do your own thinking. UTOPIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:36:55 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: patents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > -----Original Message----- > From: Dick Fischbeck [mailto:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:58 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: patents > > > Have there been any, significant or otherwise, > geodesic patents since Bucky? And what are the pros > and cons of copyrights verses patents again? Apples and oranges. > > I have something I'd like to test out with you all, > but I hesitate. I am concerned about being ripped > off. If you think we would rip you off, why place any value on our opinions? > And worse, having the idea lost, sabotaged or > discredited from the onset. Isn't that the point of a peer review? I'm not sure how an idea would get lost by posting it here. You use strong, negative language for what I think should be simple criticism. I mean if you are afraid of having your idea discredited here, it would be somewhere else, eventually, if it doesn't have merit. > Bucky got his patents he > said to insure accessibility to the whole planet. I'm > not saying my design is on par with his work. I am > saying I think it is important enough to treat with > care. Thanks up front. Then it's important enough to learn the difference between a copyright and a patent. They are very different things. Baldwin wrote a book, BuckyWorks. I can't copy the pages of that book and put them in my own book or distribute them in any way with out his permission because he has a copyright. The book describes ideas and inventions. I can't produce a product and sell it on the open market unless I get permission from the holder of any patents which might describe those inventions. A copyright grants ownership to published works (as published works) not the ideas contained in those works. The exact description of robbery in a newspaper is copyrighted. Not the details. Anyone is free to create their own story. The facts are not protected. A patent grants ownership of the facts, but not the description. Anyone can take your idea talk or write about it forever, but they can't use the idea in a product for profit. If I have an invention and don't want to take the time, trouble and money to patent it, I can get the description somehow published. Even if I just took a copy down to my local court house and had it registered. I would thus create "prior art" that would prevent someone else from taking my invention and getting a patent for themselves, thus stealing it from me. This prior art will not stop anyone from using my invention in their own product. In effect, it becomes public domain. Its a little offensive to suggest you have an idea but don't want to share it with us because of "being ripped off" or "sabotaged". Then why bring it up in the first place? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 07:55:52 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: patents In-Reply-To: <313B94EDA224D11194680001FA7EC2A809BDD3C2@nts1.triplecrowns vc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >If I have an invention and don't want to take the time, trouble >and money to patent it, I can get the description somehow published. This is the approach I take from time to time, and not just because I don't want to take the time or trouble, but because I think the idea is important and useful, I therefore I don't want it to get tied up in a patent. As I wrote in my hypertoons essay: I am not trying to copyprotect the concept of hypertoon because I do not wish to hamper its implementation. I've been discussing hypertoons and their implementation within my network for well over a year by this time. The concept is very generic and needs to stay in the public domain. However, lots of proprietary implementations will derive from these concepts. Commerical products with trade value will no doubt grow up around the hypertoon idea. [ Dec 7, 1996 http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/hypertoon.html ] >Even if I just took a copy down to my local court house and >had it registered. I would thus create "prior art" that would I find the internet is a great way to get things date and time stamped in a way that's not easily faked (via newsgroups especially -- although when deja.com closed its archives for an "upgrade" this caused problems). >prevent someone else from taking my invention and getting a >patent for themselves, thus stealing it from me. This prior art >will not stop anyone from using my invention in their own >product. In effect, it becomes public domain. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:52:38 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: patents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Have there been any, significant or otherwise, > > geodesic patents since Bucky? There is a form of triangulated dome, not true geodesic, which is referred to as Stratodesic. Its inventor holds a patent. Basically, all the courses of triangles are bordered in truly horizontal "lines of latitude" which facilitate the installation of standard rectangular windows and doors. It's a variation on the geodesic concept. There are also numerous patents on hub designs, and at least a few for tensegrity domes, dating in the 1970s. (I was looking up tensegrity in the IBM Patent Server the other night...) > > I have something I'd like to test out with you all, > > but I hesitate. I am concerned about being ripped > > off. > > If you think we would rip you off, why place any value > on our opinions? It only takes one person to rip him off, and this list is *publically* archived for all to see. I can understand his trepidation...he doesn't want to lose the rights to something he feels is potentially important. > > And worse, having the idea lost, sabotaged or > > discredited from the onset. > > Isn't that the point of a peer review? I'm not sure how > an idea would get lost by posting it here. Well, if it's a bad idea, it *should* be discredited. That's the entire point of asking for other people's opinions. Getting other viewpoints is the best way to eliminate potential problems in a new design. As for losing the right to patent it, it might be considered a public mention of your device...it's been a while since I looked up patent laws, but you have something like 1 year from the time of public disclosure to file a patent application. After that, it becomes unpatentable by anyone, and is placed into the public domain. (Do check around...this is from a rather sketchy memory) -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 11:09:06 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: patents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles J Knight [mailto:c.knight@JUNO.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 10:53 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: patents > > > > > > I have something I'd like to test out with you all, > > > but I hesitate. I am concerned about being ripped > > > off. > > > > If you think we would rip you off, why place any value > > on our opinions? > > It only takes one person to rip him off, and this list is > *publically* archived for all to see. I can understand > his trepidation...he doesn't want to lose the rights to > something he feels is potentially important. That's my point. This is a public list. If there are those here you trust, contact them privately. Don't come on the list and throw accusations. True, there may be those lurking that would do harm. That's a given in any public forum. But as a member of the list also the original post was addressed to me also. I was lumped in with the shady. I took offense. Dick, if you are serious about this idea, if you think it has real potential profit for you, contact a patent attorney. We all have opinions here, don't bet the farm on any one of them. Steve O ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:11:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: patents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Jeezum -I didn't mean you or someone with integrity. I think ideas travel quickly on the internet and many people would exploit someone given half the chance. I really appreciate your information and ideas about the subject, thank you very,very much. I do not critisize others or judge them (on purpose). I try to remember that we are all in the same boat. I apologize to anyone tooking offense. Dick --- Stephen O'Shaughnessy wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dick Fischbeck > [mailto:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 8:58 AM > > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: patents > > > > > > Have there been any, significant or otherwise, > > geodesic patents since Bucky? And what are the > pros > > and cons of copyrights verses patents again? > > Apples and oranges. > > > > > I have something I'd like to test out with you > all, > > but I hesitate. I am concerned about being ripped > > off. > > If you think we would rip you off, why place any > value > on our opinions? > > > And worse, having the idea lost, sabotaged or > > discredited from the onset. > > Isn't that the point of a peer review? I'm not sure > how > an idea would get lost by posting it here. You use > strong, > negative language for what I think should be simple > criticism. I mean if you are afraid of having your > idea > discredited here, it would be somewhere else, > eventually, if > it doesn't have merit. > > > Bucky got his patents he > > said to insure accessibility to the whole planet. > I'm > > not saying my design is on par with his work. I > am > > saying I think it is important enough to treat > with > > care. Thanks up front. > > Then it's important enough to learn the difference > between > a copyright and a patent. They are very different > things. > Baldwin wrote a book, BuckyWorks. I can't copy the > pages > of that book and put them in my own book or > distribute them > in any way with out his permission because he has a > copyright. > > The book describes ideas and inventions. I can't > produce a > product and sell it on the open market unless I get > permission > from the holder of any patents which might describe > those > inventions. > > A copyright grants ownership to published works (as > published works) > not the ideas contained in those works. The exact > description > of robbery in a newspaper is copyrighted. Not the > details. > Anyone is free to create their own story. The facts > are not > protected. > > A patent grants ownership of the facts, but not the > description. > Anyone can take your idea talk or write about it > forever, but > they can't use the idea in a product for profit. > > If I have an invention and don't want to take the > time, trouble > and money to patent it, I can get the description > somehow published. > Even if I just took a copy down to my local court > house and > had it registered. I would thus create "prior art" > that would > prevent someone else from taking my invention and > getting a > patent for themselves, thus stealing it from me. > This prior art > will not stop anyone from using my invention in > their own > product. In effect, it becomes public domain. > > Its a little offensive to suggest you have an idea > but don't want > to share it with us because of "being ripped off" or > "sabotaged". > Then why bring it up in the first place? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:21:36 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000724100618.00833e20@pop.teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I hear Wells Fargo Mortgage will consider financing geodesic domes. > > > >Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com > >Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > > We should note that Bucky himself was dismissive of the > mortgage industry (was more into checkout/recycle -- more > like the terms on which people occupy cubicles at work). > > Also, these kit domes, though often gorgeous, are still > suburban construction industry creatures, not products > of aerospace tech. We don't have good models of what > Bucky was talking about, beyond a few prototypes. > > If we get a lot of middle class USAers living in suburban > or rural domes, each paying a mortgage to Wells Fargo, > we'll be no closer to a realization of Bucky's hopes for > humanity than we are right now. > > Kirby Down here in Eugene there is a place called Oregon Dome that builds these 2 x 6 lumber and plywood-sheeting prefab-panel suburban dome-homes. They look nice and the large inside free space is attractive but they are relatively expensive due to the high labor costs and extensive customization required. They use conventional interior framing, plaster and paint, high-grade roofing shingles for the exterior, and rectangular door and window inserts. The ones I've toured seem altogether too normal. And they end up becoming luxury homes for rich people who think domes are cool. In contrast, I believe the mass-produced manufactured homes that go down the highway in sections are much closer to what Mr. Fuller was taking about. Here we have a real industry, not aircraft grade, but certainly far beyond the stick and mortar nail-it-together residential construction business. These manufactured homes are available in standard models shown at a dealership and truck-delivered from the factory to a relatively standardized foundation pad with straight- forward utility hookups. They can even be subsequently moved. And they are inexpensive (well, at least compared to custom built homes.) I'm looking forward to touring one of these local housing factories soon. There is one up near Albany which advertises public tours: www.PalmHarbor.com (Perhaps those of you who live close by, like Kirby, might want to join me for this?) Either way, I'll give you all a report after the tour. I've also taken the Weyerhaeuser paperboard mill tour here in Springfield, Oregon, and was greatly impressed by these huge machines. They crank-out hundreds of feet of sheeting every minute and run 24 hours a day. Huge rolls of tough paperboard are shipped out by train and truck to factories elsewhere that produce the corrugated cardboard sheets. As Fuller said, cardboard is one of the most efficiently produced construction materials. Too bad building the codes have evolved to require sheet-rock for fire resistance--it's so damn heavy and dusty to work with. As a kid I used to love fashioning myself a "fort" out of big cardboard boxes. You could just tape pieces together and cut window holes with a knife. With a spray-on waterproofing (or if you lived under a big rain-dome umbrella) this could make fine housing. As Buckminster Fuller and his students have demonstrated. Perhaps it would be a good thing to torch your house every 5 or 10 years and upgrade to the latest cardboard dome kit? (c:W See ya, Dexter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 11:35:57 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: patents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dick, Don't loose any sleep over it or anything. For my part it was more of a rant. I once worked as an orderly in the surgical department of a hospital. One day the day shift nursing supervisor called us all in (I worked evenings) and proceeded to rip us a new butt hole. Someone, on some shift, may be an orderly, maybe not, said or did something they should not have. (Our main job as surgical orderlies was to go to the different floors and departments in the hospital and deliver patients to surgery). We were dumbfounded. Had no idea who or what she was talking about. Rather than investigate the incident properly this supervisor thought it would be more expedient to just spank us all at once and hope she got the guilty party. I vowed to never again allow myself to be grouped into a category I didn't belong. I, also, should have taken your comments in the spirit I'm sure they were intended. I apologize for my harshness. Steve O > -----Original Message----- > From: Dick Fischbeck [mailto:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 11:11 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: patents > > > Jeezum -I didn't mean you or someone with integrity. > I think ideas travel quickly on the internet and many > people would exploit someone given half the chance. I > really appreciate your information and ideas about the > subject, thank you very,very much. I do not critisize > others or judge them (on purpose). I try to remember > that we are all in the same boat. I apologize to > anyone tooking offense. > > Dick > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:11:04 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: patents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirby Urner [mailto:pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 9:56 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: patents > > > >If I have an invention and don't want to take the time, trouble > >and money to patent it, I can get the description somehow published. > > This is the approach I take from time to time, and not just > because I don't want to take the time or trouble, but because > I think the idea is important and useful, I therefore I don't > want it to get tied up in a patent. As I wrote in my hypertoons > essay: I think if everyone adopted this attitude, the planet would be a much better place. The idea that everyone is out to get me (us) has such a negative affect. I'm not suggesting that you (Kirby) or Dick or anyone should freely throw you ideas to the world. It's each individuals decision how to give. Just that we need to get past the us vs. them attitude. The hording vs. giving instinct. If everyone gave, then gave some more, I think we would see everyone's standard of living rise. As we've all stated before, there's untold wealth in the universe. Hording seems to lock it up. Kirby, I applaud your giving attitude. Steve O ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:20:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: More alchemy (was late night synergetics) Comments: To: synergeo@egroups.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000731143015.008cfda0@pop.teleport.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Me: >Getting back to the Gibbs/Euler dichotomy, I don't think it's >entirely unreasonable to talk about the fluid, crystalline >or airy qualities of thinking when exploring the geometry >thereof. Me some more: For example, I think the thesis could be advanced, and probably has been, that militarism often arises when a culture is perceived/felt to be too lax and self- indulgent. The "lax" archetype (hyperlink to Jung) might be connected to the Puer (as in puerile) or childish icon. Given a species with millenia of "girding for battle" behind it, I'd not be surprise if some archetypal gearworks kicks in during puer phase which pulls a society in the direction of regimented, hierarchical, martial arrangements. A sense of balance (or imbalance as the case may be) leads a critical number to push for a draft, start towards war, develop a complex about some enemy or whatever. In alchemical terms, this would be a reaction to gas phase eccentricity, a swing of the pendulum to what feels more orderly and "command and control" like. I'm not saying this is our condition today though, for a couple of reasons. * I think high tech is suffusing pop culture with quite a bit of crystalline content, largely in the form of internet infrastructure. The civilian sector has finally swallowed a huge matrix of highly technical concepts. What started out as a military blueprint (DARPA) is now a commericial template (e-commerce). So the younger set, while appearing puerile vis-a-vis the senex, gets to come off as self-disciplined with regard to some guild-like technology skills. * There's a growing intuitive sense that the root causes of war might be addressed using these new civilian-informed technologies i.e. civilization may have sufficient ammo in its inventory to forestall a descent into brutality and violent paroxysms. Unity of opposites: there's a phenomenon in psychology of extremes approaching one another, unifying "around the back" (dark side of the moon imagery). Case in point: wars are among the more chaotic and disorganized of human activities. They're entropic, cataleptic, and represent a surrender of the ego's small time responsibilities in favor of some megatrend "sweep of history" sensation in which people get caught up in "forces beyond their control". What's scary, to many, about the self-indulgent or puerile societies is a sense of loneliness or being left on the sidelines. Others seem perfectly happy to go about their business, but there's no common focus, no rallying around a principle, no dominant mood or fashion. So actually it's the more puerile or childish, with the least developed inner gyroscope, who yearn for a return to some "movement" in which they might be "carried away" -- a satisfaction of that sense that they're sharing experience with a lot of other people (rock concerts often speak to this need). So it's actually the more immature and puerile among us who start the wheels turning towards a more regimented and conformist order. The rise of the Nazi movement piggy-backed on youth to large degree, with Hitler being the archetypal puer, someone to rally around who offered simplistic and emotive explanations for everything. Again, I'm thinking that the permeation of youth culture by high tech might forestall another outburst of this kind. Militia groups still tend to enflame youth around this or that paradigm, but no single model prevails. Racist dogmas remain popular, but is of waning influence in other circles (isn't as big a hook as it used to be). The United Nations doesn't inspire the same paranoias and forebodings as it once did among many. Lots of groups are fingering a "bad guy" or trying to focus public attention on some centralized "evil", but a lot of this projection succumbs in the face of more serious-minded analysis (web access by the many helps keep the countering views in close proximity). We come back to a more root-cause-based vision of why human affairs remain so unsatisfactory -- and the picture that develops doesn't suggest surrendering to some simple-minded cartoon about "evil incarnate" is wise and/or likely to produce positive outcomes. This may be too optimistic a reading. The fact that we came close to a ground war in Europe during the NATO fiasco makes it evident that some of the puerile tendencies towards militarism remain alive and well in many areas. Racism, even if deprived of any scientific basis in genetics, is still virulent in the form of ethnocentrism and religious hatreds (as we've seen in the Balkans and Africa). It's still easy to enflame people to rally around religious iconography and to villify an alternative. So of course we're all still watching South Asia, wondering if that Hindu-versus-Moslem tension is going to get out of control (which development would seriously discredit both spiritual disciplines, as unable to contain a trend towards infantalism). Plus people worry, with some justification, about those apocalyptic- minded Christians, in the USA especially (where most the nukes are). There's always a lunatic fringe ready to have Judgement Day next Thursday. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 11:10:53 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Open Source concepts (was Re: patents) In-Reply-To: <313B94EDA224D11194680001FA7EC2A809BDD3C4@nts1.triplecrowns vc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Kirby, I applaud your giving attitude. > >Steve O I think what I'm doing is commensurate with the open source initiative more generally. The challenge with high tech culture is to get very fragile and delicate technologies to work together. To have more robust and synergetic applications, we need to have a lot of people who understand the guts of what's going on, which means hiding the working parts behind a lot of secrecy is just going to damage your product in the marketplace of ideas. If you want people to integrate what you're doing with what they're doing, you have to be more public than private -- this is what high tech is bringing about. For example a lot of people are learning Linux not because it's initially easier to use or as convienient as the Windows desktop/OS, but because it's in principle open source, meaning if you want the equivalent of a PhD (or better) in operating systems etc., you can get a big boost by learning C/C++ and reading a lot of code. That's what a lot of Chinese and Russian kids are doing these days (Windows probably won't make the inroads, because the MSFT strategy is not about "technology transfer" at that low level -- except to employes in subsidiaries). The whole "intellectual property" debate is quite interesting. Western legal theory tried to treat ideas as real property, which involved overlooking the infinite clonability of digital assets. This brings copyprotectors into conflict with some other very fundamental western institutions: the library and the police. What is the library in a digital age? Why do you "borrow and return" when you can "download and keep"? If the assets are digital, then the idea of waiting for someone to return an asset so you can get your turn is somewhat ridiculous (unless this is a checkout/checkin source code management scheme, wherein the digital assets in question are actually being modified -- gets us away from the "library" paradigm, more into product development). The policing function is likewise embedded in the species: people feel they have a right and duty to supervise one another, to make sure that inimical influences that might hurt or damage one's self or loved ones don't spread. If someone is dumping toxins into the environment, or germs, we need to know, and have a right to intervene. The same thing goes for memes. A lot of entertainment brokers don't understand this, but when they inject an experience (such as a movie or song) into pop culture, they're arousing the policing function -- same as with toxic wastes. People think "I'm not about to pay for the privilege of seeing what you're pumping out to the world, on the contrary, if you're dumping memes into the arteries of our planetary economy, then I have a right to supervise/check/monitor what you're doing, and without paying for the privilege." This isn't the same thing as clamoring for censorship, but it is, I think, part of what drives the erosion of intellectual property rights. If your intent is to put it out there (whatever it is), then you need to allow others to access and counter it, or at least realize their drive to do so has a lot of integrity behind it (even if your goal is, ultimately, to frustrate their desire to get in without jumping through your hoops (e.g. to have no "back door")). Of course it's not so simple: many sources of memes are well aware that others would like to tap in, precisely for the purpose of monitoring and supervising, but these sources, for whatever reasons, have no intention of divulging their trade secrets or whatever it is. So against the policing function and peoples natural curiosity and drive to know, is a lot of heavy duty cryptography and shielding against prying eyes. This tends to bring police service into competition with police service, and begets what we call the "intelligence community" of spy vs. spy (ala Mad Magazine). The game is ages-old, and is all about the world of memes, how to spread them successfully, or to counter/neutralize those you don't want to see spread. As old a game as history itself, but of course cyberspace has brought it all to a boil (in terms of speed -- some of what used to take months or years to work through is now being handled at twitch reflex speed, which of course bothers a lot of oldsters who wonder "is this really safe?" (is it safe to be so slow?)). In my own experience, cyberspace has a lot of nooks and crannies. Even though we call it the "public domain", it's not all equally accessible, and some stuff only comes to those who dig for it. Cyberspace rewards the tenacious (just like a library). Like, even though anyone can download OS files in C/C++ and learn to read them with comprehension, only a minority of the most inspired/driven are actually going to do so (e.g. those Russian and Chinese kids). It's therefore highly possible to weed out the less committed or talented simply by not being "too public", while being public nevertheless, a good compromise between the competing inclinations of secrecy and democracy. Or call it "weak encryption" -- if you're awake and alert, you'll likely get it. If you're asleep or into your own brand of dreaming, you might miss the cues -- but others are catching on, so don't worry too much if your attention is focused elsewhere (maybe just make sure they have a way to beep you if it's really necessary). Kirby PS: for more on intellectual property rights, from a Quaker perspective, check out my Quakerly Topics page at http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quakes.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:37:12 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: apolitical <> Brian Q. Hutchings 01-AUG-2000 17:37 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us poltics is diplomacy by other means than war? the briefest way to explain how it is that "being apolitical" is such a radical stance: if you vote for Nader (goes the mainstream Dem rant), you vote for Bush; true, but the DNC has crushed the primary vote to all-time lows, in order to have a subrosa "corronation" of the (JR) Gore dynasty of two generations, to somewhat match the "Republican" corronation of (JR) Bush's 3-generations of fascist policy-making -- so that voting for Al is giving it to the new "big tent" facade of Son George. you may have seen the stories on Hollinger Corp. in today's NYTimes and WSJournal. it was less claer in the Times, that Black is getting rid of his Canadian papers, not so much the USA holding; in any case, the total number of papers, world-around, is awesome, and was also only noted in the Journal. neither paper noted that these figures make it the largest pulbisher of dailies and weeklies in this nation (probably in the world, as well, but the concentration is in NAmerica), nor Hollinger's history, nor its "stellar" board of directors. that is to say, check the masthead of your "local" paper, if you live in a medium-size town, or Chicago, London, Jerusalem etc. (Toronto Globe & Mail is the "flagship"). obviously, if you don't vote "period," you are assigning yourself to the putative "NOTA" ballot that Nader promotes, bizarrely (or, what is the same, all of the below !-) the reason that you are one of the NOTA-niks, now, is because of this backwards get-out-the-vote policy, which is sort of the opposite of the jacobin policies that Albright and co.try to promote in Peru e.g., or successfully impose in Venezuela e.g., through such awful quangoes as the "national endowment for democracy". thus quoth: unregistered party. To me, politics is about arguing and apolitical to me is not to argue. How can they be the same thing, or did I misunderstand you? If I don't participate in the debate, how is that somehow a form of participation? --Undead George! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 17:49:37 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Chairman George at Watergate! <> Brian Q. Hutchings 01-AUG-2000 17:49 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us continuing. during the impeachment, a very similar proposal was floated for a co-presidency, again by Sir Henry; you may have seen this in your paper. this went with talk of resignation to these "Republican" freaks. mister Gore was conferring with PM Chernomyrdin in Russia, who was likewise maneuvering for the Presidency -- before LTCM went bust, becuase of his own insider work with Soros on those GKO (?) bonds (Gore got a report on this from the CIA, but returned it "with a barnyard epithet scrawled on the cover;" the former PM made way-more money in this time, than the Veep ever got from all njns of any persuasion !-) so, don't vote for Nader, to get Gushed! --Undead George! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm thus quoth: the most ridicuolous quote (I forget in which one, as well as the name of the other politico) was from Meese, I think, about how he didn't do anyhting to counter K, because "he was just a boy from Sacramento, and Henry'd negotiated with Mao!" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 23:08:50 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I've also taken the Weyerhaeuser paperboard mill tour here > in Springfield, Oregon, and was greatly impressed by these > huge machines. They crank-out hundreds of feet of sheeting > every minute and run 24 hours a day. Huge rolls of tough > paperboard are shipped out by train and truck to factories > elsewhere that produce the corrugated cardboard sheets. And, cardboard is amazingly strong for its weight. Might be interesting to manufacture a dome from cardboard...it could be stamped on the same presses as boxes. Coroplast is a similar material, though not quite as benign, since it's made from plastic. It transmits light pretty well, though, where cardboard homes would likely require interior lighting during the day. > As Fuller said, cardboard is one of the most efficiently > produced construction materials. Too bad building the codes > have evolved to require sheet-rock for fire resistance--it's > so damn heavy and dusty to work with. As a kid I used to Are the building codes common across all states? I've not ever looked at them, specifically. Is sheetrock required on all walls, or only certain (interior partitions vs exterior walls) surfaces? Etc... Wait a second -- log homes will frequently have log wall interiors, as do cordwood homes. They meet code! > love fashioning myself a "fort" out of big cardboard boxes. > You could just tape pieces together and cut window holes > with a knife. With a spray-on waterproofing (or if you lived > under a big rain-dome umbrella) this could make fine housing. There is a movement on the net, which is using fiber-crete. It could be best described as concrete based papier-mache. In simplest terms, it's formed into adobe type blocks, and used as bricks...it's nearly fireproof due to the concrete component in the mix. Since some are building homes for habitation, it must meet building code requirements, at least somewhere... These are literally paper houses -- there is a precedent! > Perhaps it would be a good thing to torch your house every > 5 or 10 years and upgrade to the latest cardboard dome kit? Or tear it down for pulp. Renew, recycle, reuse... :-) -- Chuck Knight P.S. Cardboard domes, as with all domes, could be used for playhouses, camping tents, etc...none of which fall under the uniform building code. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine all sorts of "alternate" markets. Matching cardboard furniture for the cardboard playdomes could easily make a secondary market. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 07:05:14 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles J Knight [mailto:c.knight@JUNO.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 11:09 PM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) > > > > I've also taken the Weyerhaeuser paperboard mill tour here > > in Springfield, Oregon, and was greatly impressed by these > > huge machines. They crank-out hundreds of feet of sheeting > > every minute and run 24 hours a day. Huge rolls of tough > > paperboard are shipped out by train and truck to factories > > elsewhere that produce the corrugated cardboard sheets. > > And, cardboard is amazingly strong for its weight. Might be > interesting to manufacture a dome from cardboard...it could > be stamped on the same presses as boxes. > Tony Kalenak has a design for a cardboard dome on the domehome list. See their companion site at www.domegroup.org/domehomepics.html Search on cardboard. > > Or tear it down for pulp. Renew, recycle, reuse... :-) > > -- Chuck Knight > Reminds me of the machine they use around here (Northern Indiana) to rebuild roads. Its as wide as a lane of traffic and literally chews up the road, grinds it down to a fine aggregate to be re- mixed with asphalt and reused on the same roadbed. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 07:11:58 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I've found a more comprehensive site for his cardboard dome. The links on the domehome page don't seem to work. Try: http://www.dnaco.net/~michael/domes/kalenak/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy [mailto:sosha@TRIPLECROWNSVC.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2000 7:05 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Charles J Knight [mailto:c.knight@JUNO.COM] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2000 11:09 PM > > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) > > > > > > > I've also taken the Weyerhaeuser paperboard mill tour here > > > in Springfield, Oregon, and was greatly impressed by these > > > huge machines. They crank-out hundreds of feet of sheeting > > > every minute and run 24 hours a day. Huge rolls of tough > > > paperboard are shipped out by train and truck to factories > > > elsewhere that produce the corrugated cardboard sheets. > > > > And, cardboard is amazingly strong for its weight. Might be > > interesting to manufacture a dome from cardboard...it could > > be stamped on the same presses as boxes. > > > Tony Kalenak has a design for a cardboard dome on the domehome > list. See their companion site at www.domegroup.org/domehomepics.html > Search on cardboard. > > > > > Or tear it down for pulp. Renew, recycle, reuse... :-) > > > > -- Chuck Knight > > > Reminds me of the machine they use around here (Northern Indiana) > to rebuild roads. Its as wide as a lane of traffic and literally > chews up the road, grinds it down to a fine aggregate to be re- > mixed with asphalt and reused on the same roadbed. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 11:34:59 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Dome design Comments: cc: domesteading@bucky.sculptors.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The other day, I was reading a book on Middle Eastern architecture. It mentioned that with the use of mud brick, domes could be quickly and easily built. BUT it also mentioned that all barrel vaults and domes had to posess a parabolic shape, so that the forces involved would be purely compressional, since mud bricks can't tolerate *ANY* tensile forces. Due to this, there is a unique and characteristic shape to all traditional buildings in the middle east, especially around Egypt. A modern renaissance in mud-brick design, spearheaded by Hassan Fathy, started with his attempts to build spherical domes from mud brick -- they failed miserably. Only when he changed to the local traditional shape, which happens to be parabolic, would his domes remain standing. ("An Architecture for People: The Complete Works of Hassan Fathy") Of course, I immediately started thinking about geodesic domes. While a sphere is indeed the most efficient way to enclose space, period, is it the *best* way to enclose space in a gravity field? Or would a parabolic dome work even better in this application? We all know that spherical geodesics resist outside forces, such as those encountered underwater, beautifully. But those are not a unidirectional force, like gravity is... We've heard about troubles with local buckling, etc, with high frequency spherical domes...could this be the result of choosing an incorrect geometry -- one which isn't taking gravity into consideration? Could it be that the hubs aren't holding the struts into place as effectively as they could? (Bucky's main complaint about rectilinear homes was that the corners held the struts rigidly into place, instead of using natural geometry to maintain the form) Has anyone ever studied this aspect of dome design? -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 09:57:57 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: materials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Of translucent, semi-rigid materials available in sheets or rolls, which would be optimum to build a dome with. I mean optimum in the sense of science, not personal preference. Also, is there such a thing as translucent cardboard or paperboard? I am looking into polycarbonate, fiberglass and plastic at the moment. ===== Dick FischbeckHubdome(copyright2000)/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>Do your own thinking. UTOPIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 12:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: materials MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit eck writes: > Of translucent, semi-rigid materials available in > sheets or rolls, which would be optimum to build a > dome with. I mean optimum in the sense of science, > not personal preference. Also, is there such a thing > as translucent cardboard or paperboard? I am looking > into polycarbonate, fiberglass and plastic at the moment. Have you seen coroplast? ( http://www.coroplast.com ) It's a product made in the States, which is essentially plastic cardboard. It's the stuff all the political and "work at home" signs are made from. In europe it's called Corroflute, commonly. I've never built a dome with it, but it's used frequently for bike fairings and tailboxes ( http://www.recumbents.com ) in structural applications. -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 17:30:53 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) <> Brian Q. Hutchings 02-AUG-2000 17:30 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us sheetrock is intended to slow or stop fires internally, as well as from passing through the exterior wall (I guess, it also deadens sound). unfortunately, asbestos has been thrown of the list, even though it is terribly safe & the best refractant material, that happens to be a mineral! logs are not very flammable, compared to framing. htus quoth: Wait a second -- log homes will frequently have log wall interiors, as do cordwood homes. They meet code! --Undead President! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:30:09 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] Natural Law Party <> Brian Q. Hutchings 02-AUG-2000 21:30 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us <> Brian Q. Hutchings 02-AUG-2000 20:36 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us is this where Deepak "Continuum Mouth" Chopra is coming from?... well, he *is* a millionaire, these days! thus quoth: is, of course, TM. Their solution to world conflict is to send a bunch of TM practitioners to, say, Kosovo, and create some "coherence" to spread peace waves, or something. And the amazing health practices are Maharishi Ayur Veda. good for him on "flipped SU(5) string theory"; Michio Kaku has a similar "real world" problemma, in going from theoretical physics to experimental phenomena. --Bushcult! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 21:32:04 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Dome design <> Brian Q. Hutchings 02-AUG-2000 21:32 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us <> Brian Q. Hutchings 02-AUG-2000 20:31 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us well, that's interesting, and I hadn't heard of it. however, the work of Nadir Khalili has made "straight round" do-able, if not perfectly balanced on the desert. he learned how to fire the mud houses, in view of the relative permanence of the village kiln. --Bushcult! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm thus quoth: parabolic dome work even better in this application? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 05:50:34 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: lobsters MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I went to the Lobster Festival late night, here in Rockland, Maine, across the bay from Bucky's Bear Island. What was for sale but an imitation version of Hoberman's Sphere! The box said Funny Sphere-Expanding Globe. Made In China. Chuck, if you are listening-Did you know about this? It says 150mm to 300mm, ten times the volume. ===== Dick FischbeckHubdome(copyright2000)/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>Do your own thinking. UTOPIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 07:33:55 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Einstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When Bucky wrote Nine Chains, few people(like ten?) understood Einstein well enough to write on he work, right? I wonder if there is any parallel today to Bucky's work. Sometimes I think there are only a handful of people that feel like I do, which is that Bucky makes a thousand times more sense than anyone else I have read. ===== Dick FischbeckHubdome(copyright2000)/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>Do your own thinking. UTOPIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:35:14 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > sheetrock is intended to slow or stop fires internally, as well > as from passing through the exterior wall (I guess, And I'm sure it works very well -- minerals don't usually burn very well. > logs are not very flammable, compared to framing. Agreed...but logs are dried wood. Wood is flammable. Surely it'd be possible to treat cardboard so that it posesses flame retardant qualities... -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 11:31:29 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > well, that's interesting, and I hadn't heard of it. however, > the work of Nadir Khalili has made "straight round" do-able, > if not perfectly balanced on the desert. > he learned how to fire the mud houses, > in view of the relative permanence of the village kiln. I've read that book..."Ceramic Houses" if memory serves. It's a great idea, and one whose time has probably come. But, why not start out with the most stable shape available? This is what my question is asking... Is a parabolic dome more stable when built in a *gravity field* than a spherical dome? Might the unidirectional force of gravity make a difference, requiring a slightly different shape to resist it? -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:18:27 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles J Knight [SMTP:c.knight@JUNO.COM] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 12:31 PM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Dome design > > > well, that's interesting, and I hadn't heard of it. however, > > the work of Nadir Khalili has made "straight round" do-able, > > if not perfectly balanced on the desert. > > he learned how to fire the mud houses, > > in view of the relative permanence of the village kiln. > > I've read that book..."Ceramic Houses" if memory serves. It's > a great idea, and one whose time has probably come. But, > why not start out with the most stable shape available? This is > what my question is asking... > > Is a parabolic dome more stable when built in a *gravity field* > than a spherical dome? Might the unidirectional force of gravity > make a difference, requiring a slightly different shape to resist > it? > Probably, but the issue might be moot. Once the strength of what ever material is sufficient to overcome the stresses, engineering moves to other aspects and attributes. How much material is needed? Cost? How easy is it to process? How long does it last? The shape is, for the most part, purely for looks. Yes, a dome is stronger than a box. But as long a you can build a box that will stand up on it's own, other issues will take precedence. Lets face it, you can do more with lines and angles in a box type structure than can be done with the ridgid requirements of a dome structure. I don't mean to start a debate here on the value of dome structures. I think we can all agree that domes use less material, are more efficient, are stronger, etc. But once these requirements are met the designers will move in the direction that gives the most freedom. Given the availability of building products, insulation, efficient furnaces, and tools designed to build a right angles, box type structures will continue in popularity. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:26:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: Re: the dome & home industry In-Reply-To: <20000801.230855.-237833.0.c.knight@juno.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > And, cardboard is amazingly strong for its weight. Might be > interesting to manufacture a dome from cardboard...it could > be stamped on the same presses as boxes. > > Coroplast is a similar material, though not quite as benign, > since it's made from plastic. It transmits light pretty well, > though, where cardboard homes would likely require interior > lighting during the day. I was thinking you'd just cut a hole and paste a piece of clear plastic across it (for windows or skylights). > > As Fuller said, cardboard is one of the most efficiently > > produced construction materials. Too bad building the codes > > have evolved to require sheet-rock for fire resistance--it's > > so damn heavy and dusty to work with. As a kid I used to > > Are the building codes common across all states? I've not > ever looked at them, specifically. Is sheetrock required on > all walls, or only certain (interior partitions vs exterior > walls) surfaces? Etc... > > Wait a second -- log homes will frequently have log wall > interiors, as do cordwood homes. They meet code! My understanding, from talking to the Oregon Dome folks, is that every interior surface must be covered with sheetrock. It has to do with burn-through rates. I figure that logs would take a long time for a fire to burn through, so they're ok. > There is a movement on the net, which is using fiber-crete. It > could be best described as concrete based papier-mache. In > simplest terms, it's formed into adobe type blocks, and used > as bricks...it's nearly fireproof due to the concrete component > in the mix. If it works like papier-mâché I would use it sculpturally rather than making bricks (rectangular blocks, yuk.) Perhaps sprayed onto a wire-mesh armature. Or how about an air-inflatable mold? Various room-sized modules hooked together to form a room complex, and then covered-over (coated) with this mortar-mâché. Let it dry and then deflate and remove the domed molds. Result is a concrete eggshell-like complex of connected rooms. Paolo Soleri did something like this using dirt. He molded his house out of mounds of dirt, covered it with concrete (reinforced with steel rebar) and then dug out the dirt underneath to form the finished concrete shell house. He also carved artistic patterns in the dirt and applied colored stones and sand before covering it with concrete. This way the inside of the house had an appealing surface finish. I could not find a picture of the house I was talking about but here are some other pictures which will give you an idea of how the technique works (I don't think he does single family housing anymore--he's into bigger things.) http://www.arcosanti.org/images/ss/source/21.html http://www.arcosanti.org/images/ss/source/22.html http://www.arcosanti.org/images/cosanti/201115.html http://www.arcosanti.org/images/cosanti/201007.html http://www.arcosanti.org/images/ceramics/cer03.html http://www.arcosanti.org/images/cosanti/200305.html http://www.arcosanti.org/images/foundry/fnd05.html http://www.arcosanti.org/images/vaults/v02.html See ya, Dexter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:57:30 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lee Bonnifield Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is a parabolic dome more stable when built in a *gravity field* > than a spherical dome? Might the unidirectional force of gravity > make a difference, requiring a slightly different shape to resist > it? I bet a parabolic is more stable, altho I have not seen engineering data or discussion about how Earth's gravity field affects geodesic structures. If you want to minimize material in a semi-rigid shell which will be located in orbit or otherwise floating in deep space I imagine the optimal solution will be spherical. For a given material with particular tensile and compressive strengths, if it is located in a uniform gravitational field like is encountered on Earth's surface, that material will be minimized using a NON-spherical shape. If every component has this added stress of its own weight, all pulling in the same direction, the structure that minimizes material will make a special accommodation in that direction. I intuit that the change from spherical would be toward parabolic, not oblate. (That is, an oblate vertical axis doorknob shape also makes an accommodation in the vertical direction but probably INCREASES stress across the flattened roof.) Maybe the accommodation could also be made by using different strut cross sections at different elevations while keeping a spherical shape. I'll bet a vertical accommodation is even more important with tensegrity structures. Gravity seems to make no difference with small tensegrity models where the components are much stronger than is necessary to support their own weight. But if you scale up and minimize materials, gravity will have an obvious effect. I built a spherical 12 strut tensegrity using 13 foot green poplar tree trunks weighing about 15 pounds each, and could not keep it from sagging. It should have stood with only 3 strut ends touching the ground, but 6 would hit. Only when the tree trunks dried out (to maybe 8 pounds each) did it stand up correctly on 3 points. I bet it would have stood on 3 points even when the struts were heavy if I had adjusted the tendon lengths in a way that recognized the unidirectional gravity field, but I could never figure out what adjustments to make. In my casual WWW search I never found any helpful analysis of the effect of gravity on geodesic structures. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:12:14 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: the dome & home industry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Coroplast is a similar material, though not quite as benign, > > since it's made from plastic. It transmits light pretty well, > > though, where cardboard homes would likely require interior > > lighting during the day. > > I was thinking you'd just cut a hole and paste a piece of clear > plastic across it (for windows or skylights). I was thinking that the outer skin itself could be made from translucent coroplast, so that no *discrete* windows would be required. Windows, in my view, are for framing a specific view...they're not the best way to provide overall interior lighting, especially now that better options are available. They're also the spots where leaks inevitably seem to form -- why pierce the skin unnecessarily, just to provide light? A view...now that's different. I took some pictures of a tensile tent structure (shopping mall in Sherman, Texas) which doesn't require any interior daytime lighting, on my last trip through that town. It's a beautiful structure, and illustrates my point perfectly. I'll put those pics on my web site, probably tonight, and post the direct URLs for anyone interested. > > There is a movement on the net, which is using fiber-crete. It > > could be best described as concrete based papier-mache. In > > simplest terms, it's formed into adobe type blocks, and used > > as bricks...it's nearly fireproof due to the concrete component > > in the mix. > > If it works like papier-mâché I would use it sculpturally rather > than making bricks (rectangular blocks, yuk.) Perhaps sprayed > onto a wire-mesh armature. Or how about an air-inflatable mold? > Various room-sized modules hooked together to form a room complex, > and then covered-over (coated) with this mortar-mâché. Let it dry > and then deflate and remove the domed molds. Result is a concrete > eggshell-like complex of connected rooms. Good idea, but it needs mass to remain stable. Apparently the stuff is not as strong as reinforced concrete...that's why it's used more as a form of insulative adobe brick. Well, at least at this stage in its development... Also, domes *can* be formed with rectangular blocks, as was proven in Egypt (and elsewhere) thousands of years ago. Many of them are still standing, too. There was a web site (can't find it recently...may have been taken down) which detailed straw-clay construction over an inflated form. Then the straw clay, which he compared to a natural styrofoam insulation, was coated with a mortar for a waterproof finish. Good idea, overall. But it's not particularly mass-manufacturable, which is one of the goals of the geodesic domes. -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:37:46 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: the dome & home industry (was RE: looking for links) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Will the home of the future have a sprinkler system? My guess is yes. --- Charles J Knight wrote: > > sheetrock is intended to slow or stop fires > internally, as well > > as from passing through the exterior wall (I > guess, > > And I'm sure it works very well -- minerals don't > usually burn > very well. > > > logs are not very flammable, compared to > framing. > > Agreed...but logs are dried wood. Wood is > flammable. Surely > it'd be possible to treat cardboard so that it > posesses flame > retardant qualities... > > -- Chuck Knight ===== Dick FischbeckHubdome(copyright2000)/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>Do your own thinking. UTOPIA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:07:21 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: the dome & home industry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a company, I believe its Monolithic Domes, that does this = already. Check out the DomeHome web page. Also: http://www.monolithicdome.com/ http://www.concretedomes.com/benefits.html > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles J Knight [SMTP:c.knight@JUNO.COM] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 3:12 PM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: the dome & home industry >=20 > > > Coroplast is a similar material, though not quite as benign, > > > since it's made from plastic. It transmits light pretty well, > > > though, where cardboard homes would likely require interior > > > lighting during the day. > > > > I was thinking you'd just cut a hole and paste a piece of clear > > plastic across it (for windows or skylights). >=20 > I was thinking that the outer skin itself could be made from > translucent coroplast, so that no *discrete* windows would be > required. Windows, in my view, are for framing a specific > view...they're not the best way to provide overall interior > lighting, especially now that better options are available. >=20 > They're also the spots where leaks inevitably seem to > form -- why pierce the skin unnecessarily, just to provide > light? A view...now that's different. >=20 > I took some pictures of a tensile tent structure (shopping mall in > Sherman, Texas) which doesn't require any interior daytime lighting, > on my last trip through that town. It's a beautiful structure, and > illustrates my point perfectly. >=20 > I'll put those pics on my web site, probably tonight, and post the > direct URLs for anyone interested. >=20 > > > There is a movement on the net, which is using fiber-crete. It > > > could be best described as concrete based papier-mache. In > > > simplest terms, it's formed into adobe type blocks, and used > > > as bricks...it's nearly fireproof due to the concrete component > > > in the mix. > > > > If it works like papier-m=E2ch=E9 I would use it sculpturally = rather > > than making bricks (rectangular blocks, yuk.) Perhaps sprayed > > onto a wire-mesh armature. Or how about an air-inflatable mold? > > Various room-sized modules hooked together to form a room complex, > > and then covered-over (coated) with this mortar-m=E2ch=E9. Let it = dry > > and then deflate and remove the domed molds. Result is a concrete > > eggshell-like complex of connected rooms. >=20 > Good idea, but it needs mass to remain stable. Apparently the stuff > is not as strong as reinforced concrete...that's why it's used more = as > a form of insulative adobe brick. Well, at least at this stage in = its > development... Also, domes *can* be formed with rectangular blocks, > as was proven in Egypt (and elsewhere) thousands of years ago. > Many of them are still standing, too. >=20 > There was a web site (can't find it recently...may have been taken > down) which detailed straw-clay construction over an inflated form. > Then the straw clay, which he compared to a natural styrofoam > insulation, was coated with a mortar for a waterproof finish. >=20 > Good idea, overall. But it's not particularly mass-manufacturable, > which is one of the goals of the geodesic domes. >=20 > -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:15:32 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: Re: the dome & home industry In-Reply-To: <313B94EDA224D11194680001FA7EC2A809BDD3D2@nts1.triplecrownsvc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cool links, thanks Stephen. I particularly like the little transportable domes. Dexter > There is a company, I believe its Monolithic Domes, that does this already. > Check out the DomeHome web page. > > Also: > http://www.monolithicdome.com/ > http://www.concretedomes.com/benefits.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:44:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Dome design <> Brian Q. Hutchings 03-AUG-2000 15:44 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us thnks for that follow-up on the experiment. I'd agree, the further toward "aerospace tooling integrity" it gets, the closer it is that sphericity's OK, within a "given amount" of gravity. it also depends upon how well the thing is grounded; if the "dome" were actually a buried sphere, wuold it matter, at all? --Bushcult! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm thus quoth: gravity will have an obvious effect. I built a spherical 12 strut tensegrity using 13 foot green poplar tree trunks weighing about 15 pounds each, and could not keep it from sagging. It should have stood with only 3 strut ends touching the ground, but 6 would hit. Only when the tree trunks dried out (to maybe 8 pounds each) did it stand up correctly on 3 points. I bet it would have stood on 3 points even when ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 15:56:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Einstein <> Brian Q. Hutchings 03-AUG-2000 15:56 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us unfortunately, Einstein's teacher, Minkowski, set the study of "relativity" back, about a 2000 years, give or take a guru! that was really what Bucky cleared-away. --Bushcult! http://www.tarpley.net/bushjfk.htm thus quoth: When Bucky wrote Nine Chains, few people(like ten?) understood Einstein well enough to write on he work, ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 19:10:52 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: the dome & home industry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There is a company, I believe its Monolithic Domes, that does this > already. It's MonolithicDome, and it's in Italy, Texas, only a few hundred miles away from my home. But, straw-clay is not sprayable...this is why straw-clay domes are not mass-producible. -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 20:16:08 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: Einstein revisited MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFFD87.A8C41BE0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFFD87.A8C41BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since I don't know how to do reply without the "Reply" going to the = original sender: Dick Fischbeck quote" When Bucky wrote Nine Chains, few people(like ten?) understood Einstein well enough to write on he work, right? I wonder if there is any parallel today to Bucky's work. Sometimes I think there are only a handful of people that feel like I do, which is that Bucky makes a thousand times more sense than anyone else I have read. "unquote How's about some dancing tetrahedrons? Edward Witten won't even = speculate as to what strings are made of so I'm calling them dancing or = liquid tetras "cause I don't have a college degree in physics to defend = : ) =20 Link to an online lecture of Wittens'. http://online.itp.ucsb.edu/online/plecture/witten/ Duality or chopped liver? Mark ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFFD87.A8C41BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since I don't know how to do reply = without the=20 "Reply" going to the original sender:
 
Dick Fischbeck=20 quote"
 
When Bucky wrote Nine Chains, few = people(like=20 ten?)
understood Einstein well enough to write on he = work,
right?  I=20 wonder if there is any parallel today to
Bucky's work. Sometimes I = think=20 there are only a
handful of people that feel like I do, which is=20 that
Bucky makes a thousand times more sense than anyone
else I = have=20 read.
"unquote
 
How's about some dancing tetrahedrons? = Edward=20 Witten won't even speculate as to what strings are made of so I'm = calling them=20 dancing or liquid tetras "cause I don't have a college degree in physics = to=20 defend : )
 
Link to an online lecture of = Wittens'.
 
 http://online= .itp.ucsb.edu/online/plecture/witten/
 
Duality or chopped liver?
 
Mark
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFFD87.A8C41BE0-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 00:59:49 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lee Bonnifield Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: >> gravity will have an obvious effect. I built a spherical 12 strut >> tensegrity using 13 foot green poplar tree trunks weighing about 15 >> pounds each, and could not keep it from sagging. It should have stood >> with only 3 strut ends touching the ground, but 6 would hit. Only when >> the tree trunks dried out (to maybe 8 pounds each) did it stand up >>. correctly on 3 points Brian Q. Hutchings wrote > thnks for that follow-up on the experiment. > I'd agree, the further toward "aerospace tooling integrity" >it gets, the closer it is that sphericity's OK, > within a "given amount" of gravity. I'm not sure I understand what you mean. For a given amount of gravity, a spherical dome with sloppy tooling might fail where the same shape dome with precision tooling might stand up. But if you are trying to minimize material usage, and you have done your tooling as precisely as possible, then sphericity is NOT optimum unless its in freefall, I think. For a given precision in tooling, a given amount of material, and a given uniform force in one direction, I bet you should depart from sphericity to accommodate that force (at the cost of having more different strut lengths and more complicated construction.) > it also depends > upon how well the thing is grounded; I'd think you could reduce lateral forces on the contact points by adjusting the shape for gravity. If you have departed from sphericity then a particular orientation is built in, so there's only one side that will work on the ground where with a sphere any side can be on the ground. > if the "dome" were actually a buried sphere, > wuold it matter, at all? I think if there are different pressures on different parts of the surface (like if it is only partially buried, or barely buried) then it would be useful to adjust the shape to conform to the pressures. If it is buried hundreds of diameters deep (like a bathysphere) the pressure will be almost uniform over the whole surface and the optimum shape will be very close to spherical. I think. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:54:33 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm not sure I understand what you mean. For a given amount of > gravity, > a spherical dome with sloppy tooling might fail where the same shape > dome with precision tooling might stand up. But if you are trying By the same token, a well built square will be quite rigid, while a sloppily built square will be quite floppy and unstable. A well built triangle will be quite rigid, while a sloppily built triangle will be quite rigid as well. The point is that the square, no matter how well built, is an inherently less stable shape than a triangle. Again, back to the original question. Will a paraboloid be a more stable shape in a directional gravity field, than a sphere, assuming the same forces on both. Case in point -- a chicken egg is an ellipsoid, not a sphere. -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 09:07:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electricity Technology Roadmap Initiative MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFDF3.630DEB00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFDF3.630DEB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Global electric utilities plans for the next 25 years: http://www.epri.com/corporate/discover_epri/roadmap/index.html Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFDF3.630DEB00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Electricity Technology Roadmap Initiative.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Electricity Technology Roadmap Initiative.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.epri.com/corporate/discover_epri/roadmap/index.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.epri.com/corporate/discover_epri/roadmap/index.html Modified=40AC3DC52DFEBF01D9 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFDF3.630DEB00-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 09:23:27 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: ELECTRICITY PLANS FOR MEXICO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Comision Federal de Electricidad, the Mexican national electric utility, is responsible for electric generation, transmission, and distribution in Mexico. CFE serves 17.5 million customers and operates 513 generating units with a total generation capacity of 34, 000 MW. The electricity market in Mexico is very dynamic, with a forecasted annual load growth of 6 percent for the next ten years. CFE has an aggressive system development plan to satisfy this high load growth requirement. The plan includes construction of 19,000 megawatts of generation capacity and 11,000 kilometers of 400-kilovolt lines over the next ten years. Ref: http://www.epri.com/highlights.asp?objid=242673 Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:33:12 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles J Knight [SMTP:c.knight@JUNO.COM] > Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 10:55 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Dome design > > > I'm not sure I understand what you mean. For a given amount of > > gravity, > > a spherical dome with sloppy tooling might fail where the same shape > > dome with precision tooling might stand up. But if you are trying > > By the same token, a well built square will be quite rigid, while a > sloppily built square will be quite floppy and unstable. A well built > triangle will be quite rigid, while a sloppily built triangle will be > quite > rigid as well. > > The point is that the square, no matter how well built, is an inherently > less stable shape than a triangle. Again, back to the original question. > Will a paraboloid be a more stable shape in a directional gravity field, > than a sphere, assuming the same forces on both. > Yes. But the difference in strength is far outweighed by the difficulty in constructing parabolid vs. a simple sphere. If strength in a single vector is the only requirement, build a sphere. The debate reminds me of an engineer friend who fancied himself an audiophile. He went so far as to use special, low oxide, very expensive, copper wires in hooking up his speakers. He claimed it made the sound better. He claimed that oxides in the wire affected the sound quality. I didn't doubt there was a measurable eletrical difference. I doubt that his ears were sensitive enough to detect that difference. I know mine were not. In strength alone, the difference a parabola brings may not be much. But that does not mean the study of parabolas is worthless. A parabola has other attributes that may be useful. For example, you can increase the height without increasing the diameter. Maybe a ranch dome vs. a two story. A parabola can have straighter "sides" that might make it easier to insert windows. How do things like surface area and strength change as the parabola is stretched out? > Case in point -- a chicken egg is an ellipsoid, not a sphere. > > -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:14:41 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: Einstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I feel as you do. For some reason RBF's work hit home like no other. No one else has so comprehensively harvested what's relevant about what we know, integrated it into a view of our current situation, and defined such a practical frame for what we both can and must do to realize a durable and peaceful existence in universe. It's tempting to get discouraged when I consider how few I've met who were similarly impressed, but that's useless. Who knows what groundswells are building from the cumulative effects of individual initiatives, and the momentum of universe...I'm encouraged by many things: • the steady, inexorable, and accelerating growth of the gradual wiring of the global brain: information bits first predominately carried (1000's of years) by people traveling on land, then ships (100's of years), then air (10's of years); then by electrons on wires, satellites, and now the internet. The fledgling electronic referendum grows each day. • the guiding power, and necessary pain, of nature's feedback: increasingly-close-up increasingly-approximate-truth on war, famine, oil/energy geopolitics, and global warming. • the failure of politics and the credibility of science (daily TV adds now say feeding all is technically doable, it's politics that's in the way). Dick Fischbeck wrote: > When Bucky wrote Nine Chains, few people(like ten?) > understood Einstein well enough to write on he work, > right? I wonder if there is any parallel today to > Bucky's work. Sometimes I think there are only a > handful of people that feel like I do, which is that > Bucky makes a thousand times more sense than anyone > else I have read. > > ===== > Dick FischbeckHubdome(copyright2000)/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>Do your own thinking. UTOPIA ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:00:49 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Einstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Nuess wrote: > > the failure of politics and the credibility of science (daily TV adds now say feeding > all is technically doable, it's politics that's in the way). I never turn the tv on. What adds are you referring to? We need more adds like that, even if they're put on as a corporate facade. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 13:21:36 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: TV ads (was RE: Einstein) Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com In-Reply-To: <398ABE80.13CAF7FF@mail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Mike Nuess wrote: > > > > the failure of politics and the credibility of science (daily TV > > adds now say feeding > all is technically doable, it's politics > > that's in the way). > > I never turn the tv on. What adds are you referring to? We need > more adds like that, even if they're put on as a corporate facade. "ADM, Supermarket to the World." http://food.admworld.com/ It's on TV everyday just before "The News Hour with Jim Lehrer." Hey look, it's also on the OPB web site! http://www.pbs.org/newshour/ Archer Daniels Midland even has a live population ticker right on there on their site. Cool. http://www.admworld.com/home/feed.htm The ad goes something like this: "It's now technically feasible to feed everyone in the world only politics stands in the way. Who is doing something about it? ADM." See ya, Dexter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 15:20:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Dome design <> Brian Q. Hutchings 04-AUG-2000 15:20 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us when you walk on Earth, you are effectively making tiny, elliptical orbits with every step (one focus is earthcenter, the other is, where?) and so on! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 08:22:33 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: The Politics of Prosperity Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been trying to follow this thread in the news for several weeks. The issue is, how to keep the new economy boom going. The answer is, leverage the prosperity of the developed nations to create prosperity for all humanity. The politicians don't get it or don't have the courage to express it. They simply want to create entitlements and tax cuts for the benefit of US citizens, which could ultimately cause a setback. I believe the public clearly wants more and understands that we need more. The Millennial Design Science Revolution is trying to burst forth to create prosperity for all. It doesn't take a Buckminster Fuller to figure it out anymore. This is the cover article of the Aug. 7, 2000 issue of Business Week. Recommended reading. The Politics of Prosperity http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_32/b3693001.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 12:36:41 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Politics of Prosperity <> Brian Q. Hutchings 05-AUG-2000 12:36 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us the phrase, "amid a burst of wealth creation not seen since the Gilded Age," whould be taken as a warning (and probably is, by a certain "segment" of society). have you seen the last report from the Bnk for Intl.Settlements?... this has been suppressed by the USA press -- and Hollinger Corp., with 379 papers -- although it has been news in the European financila press, and only one candidate has exposed it, publically, Gore's contender. I found, by luck, a tiny piece in the (LA) Daily News, unreported by the LA or NY Times (as far as I could tell), showing that Alan Keyes had won 21 delegates, but was not allowed *in* to the convention (too much danger of abortion being dyssed -- gotta luv those sub-2-pound runts !-) I imagine the real danger was that he'd have shown common-cause with Lyn, in blasting the stalinist DNC practices, as ratified by the Supreme Court on Gore's behalf (in a 5-4 split, I think). the NYT may not have said a word about it, but the LAT just noted that Keyes was awarded 6 delegates, to McCain's one, with mumbo-jumbo to the effect that, since he didn't release his delegates, some "Bush supporters felt that they were morally committed" to do it (or, those were the ones, they said could live), and that he was the runner-up, and that he was the only black man to do that since Frederick Douglas -- and they put duct-tape pver his po'mouth! Bushcult! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm thus quoth: I've been trying to follow this thread in the news for several weeks. The issue is, how to keep the new economy boom going. The answer is, leverage the prosperity of the developed nations to create prosperity for all humanity. The politicians don't get it or don't have the courage to express it. They simply want to create entitlements and tax cuts for the benefit of US citizens, which could ultimately cause a setback. I believe the public clearly wants more and understands that we need more. The Millennial Design Science Revolution is trying to burst forth to create prosperity for all. It doesn't take a Buckminster Fuller to figure it out anymore. This is the cover article of the Aug. 7, 2000 issue of Business Week. Recommended reading. The Politics of Prosperity http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_32/b3693001.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:54:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The Politics of Prosperity <> Brian Q. Hutchings 05-AUG-2000 15:54 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us the real tee-off of the Bus.Week article was the reference to Gush's emulation of the Progressive polcies of TR and Wilson, which is the biggest white-wash and mindrinse in American schooling! --Bushcult! http://www.tarpley.net.bush7.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 21:38:08 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lee Bonnifield Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: >> a spherical dome with sloppy tooling might fail where the same shape >> dome with precision tooling might stand up. Chuck Knight wrote: > By the same token, a well built square will be quite rigid, while a > sloppily built square will be quite floppy and unstable. A well built > triangle will be quite rigid, while a sloppily built triangle will be > quite rigid as well. I'd say that's a different token, an issue of configuration instead of precision. I mean, a sloppily built triangle is only rigid in a constant gravitational field because it slips to take up the slop. Imagine a dome with sloppy hubs, so every triangle can stretch a little bit as the struts move slightly in the hubs. If the slop is too large the dome will collapse, but there is a range of acceptable slop where the dome stands stably as long as it has a constant stable force like gravity applied to it. The struts will shift to one extreme of their range, and stay there. But that rigidity is partly due to the gravitational force holding it in position. If a new force is applied (like wind) and the hubs are sloppy, some of the struts will move, slightly changing the shape of some triangles, to accommodate both forces gravity + wind. > The point is that the square, no matter how well built, is an inherently > less stable shape than a triangle. Agreed, that's true in both weightlessness and gravity. > Again, back to the original question. > Will a paraboloid be a more stable shape in a directional gravity field, > than a sphere, assuming the same forces on both. Like I said, yes. But maybe "strong" is a better adjective than "stable" if stable just means it is not moving under its current load. Or "ephemeral" (in Bucky's 792.52 sense, doing more with less) is even better for the point I think we're making : by departing from the spherical shape, you can use less material to enclose the same volume with the same rigidity if the structure is being supported in a gravitational field. (I'm writing entirely from intuition, not experience.) I'm adding the word "supported" because there really must be a contact force (like where the dome touches the ground) for the gravitational field to matter. A satellite is "in" a gravity field, but it is not supported, it is freefalling, so it does not feel any contact force with anything. A contact force could also be produced by acceleration. So, a satellite should be spherical, but a rocketship will be more cigar shaped to orient its structural members to accommodate the force coming from the direction of the rocket. > Case in point -- a chicken egg is an ellipsoid, not a sphere. Does the pointy end come out first? Brian Q. Hutchings wrote > when you walk on Earth, > you are effectively making tiny, elliptical orbits > with every step (one focus is earthcenter, > the other is, where?) and so on! I don't think I understand the point, but maybe I agree if you run or jump so you have both feet off the ground. Then you are in "orbit" while you are in freefall (ignoring air resistance, which is another contact force.) But if there is a contact force between a foot and the ground, that force pushes you out of the orbital path. Your musculature and posture adjust that contact force to keep you moving horizontally. I wrote: > In my casual WWW search I never found any > helpful analysis of the effect of gravity on geodesic structures. I should have mentioned Bob Burkhardt's studies of how tensegrity tendons stretch, which is certainly related. My poplar tensegrity had steel tendons with negligible stretch, but the struts bowed under the stress. That makes them effectively shorter, leading to similar structural difficulties as tendon stretch with stiff struts. I forget the details, but Bob was able to correctly calculate which of the poplar tensegrity tendons were slack when I described how it was sagging. I think he also knows how tendons at different elevations see different stresses. Maybe by now he can calculate absolute stress (not just relative) for a given strut weight. Almost all of the information I've come across about geodesic domes and tensegrities ignores gravity and the weight of the struts. That's fine for building models, where you don't mind using much stronger materials than are necessary. For ephemeral building I think it is very difficult to learn how strut weight should affect design. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 18:47:18 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: LEAH GARCHIK'S PERSONALS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFF0D.94BF83A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFF0D.94BF83A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From the San Francisco Chronicle dated July 31, 2000: "--Bravo TV is shooting a special about the making of ``R. Buckminster Fuller: The History (and Mystery) of the Universe,'' so a camera crew showed up yesterday for a performance at the Lorraine Hansberry Theatre in San Francisco. Fuller's daughter, Allegra Fuller Snyder, was on hand to be interviewed, as was Judith Light, who recently appeared in San Francisco in ``Wit'' and is a friend of the Fuller family. " Ref: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/07/31 /DD63854.DTL Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFF0D.94BF83A0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="LEAH GARCHIK'S PERSONALS.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="LEAH GARCHIK'S PERSONALS.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/chronicle/arc= hive/2000/07/31/DD63854.DTL [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=3D/chronicle/archive= /2000/07/31/DD63854.DTL Modified=3DA06B61E947FFBF015B ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFFF0D.94BF83A0-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 19:57:22 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Fw: FindArticles - THE DOME.(project to build dome home)(includes related article on Buckminster Fuller) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 8:03 PM Subject: FindArticles - THE DOME.(project to build dome home)(includes related article on Buckminster Fuller) > Joe S Moore [joemoore@cruzio.com] thought you'd find this article useful. > > THE DOME.(project to build dome home)(includes related article on Buckminster Fuller) > http://www.findarticles.com/m1279/1999_June/54655413/p1/article.jhtml > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ > > FindArticles - A LookSmart Service > http://www.findarticles.com/ > > "The Web's First Free Articles Archive" > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 22:14:14 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >> a spherical dome with sloppy tooling might fail where the same > shape > >> dome with precision tooling might stand up. > > I'd say that's a different token, an issue of configuration instead > of > precision. Well, yes and no. The point I was making is that, for a given level of precision, certain shapes simply "hold" their shape better than others. Whether this is because the shape itself is more stable (triangle vs square), or because the shape lends itself better to the loads present (sphere vs paraboloid) is secondary. > position. If a new force is applied (like wind) and the hubs are > sloppy, some of the struts will move, slightly changing the shape of > some triangles, to accommodate both forces gravity + wind. Good point...and one to keep in mind while exploring shape vs rigidity. > > Will a paraboloid be a more stable shape in a directional gravity > field, > > than a sphere, assuming the same forces on both. > > Like I said, yes. But maybe "strong" is a better adjective than > "stable" > if stable just means it is not moving under its current load. Or I had in mind problems like local buckling of a dome. There are all sorts of ways to take care of this, most of which involve brute force engineering (3-D internal truss, no matter how elegant, is simply reinforcing an inherent flaw in the design) See David Anderson's pages ( http://www.ONE.net/~monkey if memory serves) for details of how to reinforce high frequency domes in this way. I still view it as a form of brute force engineering...a truly properly designed structure shouldn't require this type of reinforcement. > "ephemeral" (in Bucky's 792.52 sense, doing more with less) is even > better for the point I think we're making : by departing from the > spherical shape, you can use less material to enclose the same > volume > with the same rigidity if the structure is being supported in a > gravitational field. (I'm writing entirely from intuition, not > experience.) As am I...I've never tried any of this, and it's all based on a single sentence in a book I just acquired. > So, a > satellite should be spherical, but a rocketship will be more cigar > shaped to orient its structural members to accommodate the force > coming > from the direction of the rocket. > > > Case in point -- a chicken egg is an ellipsoid, not a sphere. > > Does the pointy end come out first? Gee...just think...the guys on Ork had it right all along! :-) -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 13:48:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Dome design In-Reply-To: <20000205.222511.-241529.0.c.knight@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The dome meme/artifact is a convergence point for several traditions, kind of like the computer is. We've got greenhouses, tents, suburban homes, warehouses, silos, event halls (e.g. theaters), atriums and pavilions, seagoing vessels, aircraft, spacecraft all putting their spins on the dome image. J. Baldwin's domes have a pronounced greenhouse flavor, which links to self-sufficiency and back to the land aesthetics. On a different point in the spectrum, my science fiction tends more towards a building outward from the office cubicle, but to a semi-spherical, shelled encapsulation of that functionality. I see lots of screens and invisible links to the internet.[1] The term "Fly's Eye Dome" reinforces the aesthetics which most interest me, because of the idea of a multi-faceted eye. These domes are eyeballs, sensors, sensitive to their physical and meta- physical environments. When you see one, you think "it's aware, monitoring, even thinking about something". That's because of how they're used, as peacekeeper outposts, listening stations -- including in protected forests and game parks, where the goal is to keep the wilds wild, unharmed by poachers or thrillseekers insensitive to the environmental costs of their sports.[2] A Fly's Eye Dome (FED) lowers into a physical space, such as a forest, but also into a mental space, a cybersea these days talked about using the terms "pervasive computing". The idea is we have alot of operability embedded in the environment. JINI is a good example, a Java-based service that lives in meeting rooms and convention centers, offering access to various services such as projection screens, maps showing the locations of supplies, cost information, ways of activating curtains or doors or alerting staff to the need for ice water in seminar room 12A.[3] A JINI-equipped laptop, plugged into this space (perhaps by radio frequency ethernet), will immediately become informed as to what services are available, and given the guest laptop an interface to the resources of that facility. The laptop doesn't have to know much in advance, except JINI. In another environment, the same laptop will behave differently, because the services will be different. In dome world, some JavaDomes are servers, others clients, others both clients and servers. When JavaDome model 212X gets air-lowered into forest district K008, it knows how to alert other domes in the vicinity to its presence, and automatically reaches out to find internet hookups, map servers, GPS stations, and other resources already provided in that environment. The onboard screens configure themselves with the appropriate control panels. The dome comes to life, ready and open for business. The denizens of the dome, presumably trained in the operation of all relevant devices, are presented with the familiar dials, gauges, knobs -- many of them virtual (screen only). The same dome in another setting would have different powers, and therefore some different control panels (some controls would remain standard, but users have the option to change them cosmetically, e.g. by applying different "skins", as they do with Winamp and other control panels today). Many of the dome models or "infopods" will be geared towards education. We have trucks for this now, which move from fair to fair, accepting groups inside, functioning sort of like museums or bookmobiles or libraries. Not all such models need be air-liftable. Depending on the terrain, truck transport might remain an option. But the idea is to communicate, perhaps about a specific topic, such as health education. The domes come equipped with videos in the native languages, relevant supplies, commlinks to remote health centers. The goal is to have personnel from the local village learn the ropes. The dome becomes a clinic, or the nucleus of several domes serving the health needs of a locale. Some domes are geared to fight dangerous diseases, others manage nutrition (serve as kitchens for large groups), others sanitation. A lot of these units are front ends to catalogs, with commercial vendors hoping to develop their base of clients. Local villages will employ their own decision-making processes to decide what optional or elective goods and services to order -- or make themselves from detailed instructions, merely ordering the necessary tools and supplies (those not already available more locally). Planners of emergency relief efforts will come to know the different kinds of domes and their interoperabilities. When a disaster strikes, experienced relief workers will have developed a clear sense of what resources are needed, and in what quantities. Bases closer to the front lines may already have some of what's needed in inventory. The computer databases will be able to list domes by category, and signal their availability -- as well as the presence or absence of the necessary transport (ships, helicopters, cargo jets, trucks or other vehicles). Of course the same databases will also need to monitor the availability and whereabouts of teams trained to operate these domes efficiently. Some models require highly trained personnel, which may be solo/couple operators, or a dozen or more staff with specific jobs and roles (e.g. some models of kitchen or public health unit might need 10 people to operate effectively). So emergency response planners also have a feel for the personnel requirements associated with a deployment, and have input into the training camps and recruiting services, where high demand will translate into stepped up outreach. Clearly what I'm sketching has a lot of parallels to military service, and you could move the whole scenario sketched above into a military context (or out of one), simply by changing the decals. Civilian operations tend to have private corporate logos affixed, whereas the military services have their own markings, nomenclature and chain of command. Indeed, I am expecting to provide segues between this futuristic vision and those currently participating in military services -- but also to those in other walks of life. My Project Renaissance scenario spells this out in more detail.[4] The way to get from here to there is to encourage the infotainment industry (e.g. Hollywood) to showcase the prototypes in action, with engineering types moving models from science fantasy to prototype stage partly in order to satisfy the prop requirements of the filmers and makers of made-for-TV specials. But as the props move towards deployability, so will the filmed events move from semi-fictional to entirely real. The global "real TV" trend will continue, with audiences tuning in to watch real world disaster relief and other events involving strong characters performing admirably (or not so admirably as the case may be -- TV is also a feedback mechanism). Webcams and other real time links will give audiences opportunities to affect the actions and outcomes experienced on the front lines, or to volunteer to assist directly and personally, once equipped with the relevant background and training. The overall theme here is to confront real world conditions with a high tech inventory and a "can do" attitude, instead of being overwhelmed and therefore superficially content to look the other way, leaving organized religion to deal with impossible problems sans any realistic engineering, more with the idea of "doing good" at a sort of pathetic and hopeless level, in large degree for the benefit of the do gooders, who hope to win points in heaven for their generousity. Although highly principled at one time, when our know-how was less advanced, this whole anemic, under-powered "do gooder" ethic/aesthetics is wearing thin, is increasingly lacking in persuasiveness and credibility. The integrity of our institutions (not just religious but financial), and the key which anchors them, requires that we accommodate technology in realistic scenarios, and not just play act and pretend to do our work, to follow our callings.[5] A religious order with any integrity at all will not shirk its responsibilities to train its people in the use of the most appropriate technologies conceivable, and that means paying attention to design science and Bucky-style contributions. A code of ethics which states its mission is to "help people" but refuses to think realistically about ways in which our highest technologies might be used in the field, is too self-contradictory, too hypocritical to sustain itself operationally over the long haul. Religious languages which completely ignore design science do so at their own peril. As history reveals, religions and the most sophisticated technologies of their day have in some cultures gone hand in hand (within certain maritime traditions for example). This relationship will continue, but only among those who manage to heal the rifts between their science and their highest principles. Those languages which pit science against religion haven't got a prayer. Many such languages/codes have already gone to the bottom, from my secularized (yet principled-enough) USA-based point of view, and are unsalvagable at this point -- but the souls who died with them (metaphysically speaking) are resurrectable, once provided with a language that makes more sense, holds water, contains a critical mass of intelligence, and is therefore more adequately reflective of eternal principles and the true responsibilities of humans in Universe. Kirby Relevant links (end notes): [1] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bworks.html [2] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/poster1.html [3] http://www.wnet.org/cgi-bin/bucky-bin/netforum/bf/a/3-17 [4] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/pr.html [5] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gstwork.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:46:43 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: The Politics of Prosperity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Hutchings wrote: > > the phrase, > "amid a burst of wealth creation not seen since the Gilded Age," > whould be taken as a warning (and probably is, > by a certain "segment" of society). Humanity has managed to progress in spite of corruption and the follies of human nature. Project Apollo was mired in corruption but the goal of landing a man on the moon was still achieved. I don't expect the Apollo Project for Spaceship Earth to be any different. You can neither run nor hide from our primitive human nature. History shows that as prosperity grows, and the struggle to survive is reduced, people have greater freedom, and demand greater respect for human rights, work for the greater social good, and are less tolerant of corruption. That's human nature! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 21:08:21 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: Re: Politics of Progress MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFFFEA.73C84C80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFFFEA.73C84C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian Hutchings wrote: > > the phrase, > "amid a burst of wealth creation not seen since the Gilded Age," > whould be taken as a warning (and probably is, > by a certain "segment" of society). Spaceship wrote: Humanity has managed to progress in spite of corruption and the follies of human nature. Project Apollo was mired in corruption but the goal of landing a man on the moon was still achieved. I don't expect the Apollo Project for Spaceship Earth to be any different. You can neither run nor hide from our primitive human nature. History shows that as prosperity grows, and the struggle to survive is reduced, people have greater freedom, and demand greater respect for human rights, work for the greater social good, and are less tolerant of corruption. That's human nature! My reply: I have to agree with Brian, at least I think I am if I read his remark = correctly.=20 Spaceship I think you'll find that humans have progressed more so out of = not being competent enough to destroy all the other guys or sometimes = known as "them". In some peoples minds corruption is not believing in = their beliefs. "The greater social good" in some peoples minds is = laboring others through laws and "education" with their religious = beliefs. There are those that believe "Freedom" is letting god do their = thinking for them. All of the above is why I find the political process = such an incredible joke. What saves our butts as a species is technology = or applying natures rules. Democracy works, and only works, because ma = nature works that way.=20 Mark P.S. Vote Alfred E. Newman this november. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFFFEA.73C84C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Brian Hutchings = wrote:
>
>  =20 the phrase,
>  "amid a burst of wealth creation not seen = since the=20 Gilded Age,"
>  whould be taken as a warning (and probably=20 is,
>  by a certain "segment" of society).
Spaceship wrote:

Humanity has managed to progress in = spite of=20 corruption and the
follies of human nature. Project Apollo was mired = in=20 corruption
but the goal of landing a man on the moon was still = achieved.=20 I
don't expect the Apollo Project for Spaceship Earth to be = any
different.=20 You can neither run nor hide from our primitive human
nature. History = shows=20 that as prosperity grows, and the struggle
to survive is reduced, = people have=20 greater freedom, and demand
greater respect for human rights, work = for the=20 greater social
good, and are less tolerant of corruption. That's = human=20 nature!
 
My reply:
 
I have to agree with Brian, at least I = think I am=20 if I read his remark correctly.
Spaceship I think you'll find that = humans have=20 progressed more so out of not being competent enough to destroy all the = other=20 guys or sometimes known as "them". In some peoples minds corruption is = not=20 believing in their beliefs. "The greater social good" in some peoples = minds is=20 laboring others through laws and "education" with their religious = beliefs. There=20 are those that believe "Freedom" is letting god do their thinking for = them. All=20 of the above is why I find the political process such an incredible = joke. What=20 saves our butts as a species is technology or applying natures rules. = Democracy=20 works, and only works, because ma nature works that way.
 
Mark
 
P.S. Vote Alfred E. Newman this=20 november.
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFFFEA.73C84C80-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 20:57:55 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: EARTH OBSERVATORY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NASA's "Earth Observatory": http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Observatory/ Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 21:19:20 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: Re: Dome design In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20000806134838.0078e63c@pop.teleport.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby, this is brilliant! Thanks for sharing it with us. -Dexter > -----Original Message----- > From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Kirby Urner > Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 13:49 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Dome design > > > The dome meme/artifact is a convergence point for several > traditions, kind of like the computer is. We've got > greenhouses, tents, suburban homes, warehouses, silos, event > halls (e.g. theaters), atriums and pavilions, seagoing vessels, > aircraft, spacecraft all putting their spins on the dome image. > > J. Baldwin's domes have a pronounced greenhouse flavor, which > links to self-sufficiency and back to the land aesthetics. On a > different point in the spectrum, my science fiction tends more > towards a building outward from the office cubicle, but to a > semi-spherical, shelled encapsulation of that functionality. I > see lots of screens and invisible links to the internet.[1] > > The term "Fly's Eye Dome" reinforces the aesthetics which most > interest me, because of the idea of a multi-faceted eye. These > domes are eyeballs, sensors, sensitive to their physical and > meta- physical environments. When you see one, you think "it's > aware, monitoring, even thinking about something". > > That's because of how they're used, as peacekeeper outposts, > listening stations -- including in protected forests and game > parks, where the goal is to keep the wilds wild, unharmed by > poachers or thrillseekers insensitive to the environmental > costs of their sports.[2] > > A Fly's Eye Dome (FED) lowers into a physical space, such as a > forest, but also into a mental space, a cybersea these days > talked about using the terms "pervasive computing". The idea > is we have alot of operability embedded in the environment. > JINI is a good example, a Java-based service that lives in > meeting rooms and convention centers, offering access to > various services such as projection screens, maps showing the > locations of supplies, cost information, ways of activating > curtains or doors or alerting staff to the need for ice water > in seminar room 12A.[3] > > A JINI-equipped laptop, plugged into this space (perhaps by > radio frequency ethernet), will immediately become informed as > to what services are available, and given the guest laptop an > interface to the resources of that facility. The laptop > doesn't have to know much in advance, except JINI. In another > environment, the same laptop will behave differently, because > the services will be different. > > In dome world, some JavaDomes are servers, others clients, > others both clients and servers. When JavaDome model 212X gets > air-lowered into forest district K008, it knows how to alert > other domes in the vicinity to its presence, and automatically > reaches out to find internet hookups, map servers, GPS > stations, and other resources already provided in that > environment. The onboard screens configure themselves with the > appropriate control panels. The dome comes to life, ready and > open for business. > > The denizens of the dome, presumably trained in the operation > of all relevant devices, are presented with the familiar dials, > gauges, knobs -- many of them virtual (screen only). The same > dome in another setting would have different powers, and > therefore some different control panels (some controls would > remain standard, but users have the option to change them > cosmetically, e.g. by applying different "skins", as they do > with Winamp and other control panels today). > > Many of the dome models or "infopods" will be geared towards > education. We have trucks for this now, which move from fair > to fair, accepting groups inside, functioning sort of like > museums or bookmobiles or libraries. Not all such models need > be air-liftable. Depending on the terrain, truck transport > might remain an option. But the idea is to communicate, > perhaps about a specific topic, such as health education. The > domes come equipped with videos in the native languages, > relevant supplies, commlinks to remote health centers. > > The goal is to have personnel from the local village learn the > ropes. The dome becomes a clinic, or the nucleus of several > domes serving the health needs of a locale. Some domes are > geared to fight dangerous diseases, others manage nutrition > (serve as kitchens for large groups), others sanitation. > > A lot of these units are front ends to catalogs, with > commercial vendors hoping to develop their base of clients. > Local villages will employ their own decision-making processes > to decide what optional or elective goods and services to order > -- or make themselves from detailed instructions, merely > ordering the necessary tools and supplies (those not already > available more locally). > > Planners of emergency relief efforts will come to know the > different kinds of domes and their interoperabilities. When a > disaster strikes, experienced relief workers will have > developed a clear sense of what resources are needed, and in > what quantities. Bases closer to the front lines may already > have some of what's needed in inventory. The computer > databases will be able to list domes by category, and signal > their availability -- as well as the presence or absence of the > necessary transport (ships, helicopters, cargo jets, trucks or > other vehicles). Of course the same databases will also need > to monitor the availability and whereabouts of teams trained to > operate these domes efficiently. > > Some models require highly trained personnel, which may be > solo/couple operators, or a dozen or more staff with specific > jobs and roles (e.g. some models of kitchen or public health > unit might need 10 people to operate effectively). So > emergency response planners also have a feel for the personnel > requirements associated with a deployment, and have input into > the training camps and recruiting services, where high demand > will translate into stepped up outreach. > > Clearly what I'm sketching has a lot of parallels to military > service, and you could move the whole scenario sketched above > into a military context (or out of one), simply by changing the > decals. Civilian operations tend to have private corporate > logos affixed, whereas the military services have their own > markings, nomenclature and chain of command. > > Indeed, I am expecting to provide segues between this > futuristic vision and those currently participating in military > services -- but also to those in other walks of life. My > Project Renaissance scenario spells this out in more detail.[4] > > The way to get from here to there is to encourage the > infotainment industry (e.g. Hollywood) to showcase the > prototypes in action, with engineering types moving models from > science fantasy to prototype stage partly in order to satisfy > the prop requirements of the filmers and makers of made-for-TV > specials. But as the props move towards deployability, so will > the filmed events move from semi-fictional to entirely real. > > The global "real TV" trend will continue, with audiences > tuning in to watch real world disaster relief and other > events involving strong characters performing admirably > (or not so admirably as the case may be -- TV is also a > feedback mechanism). Webcams and other real time links > will give audiences opportunities to affect the actions > and outcomes experienced on the front lines, or to volunteer > to assist directly and personally, once equipped with the > relevant background and training. > > The overall theme here is to confront real world conditions > with a high tech inventory and a "can do" attitude, instead of > being overwhelmed and therefore superficially content to look > the other way, leaving organized religion to deal with > impossible problems sans any realistic engineering, more with > the idea of "doing good" at a sort of pathetic and hopeless > level, in large degree for the benefit of the do gooders, who > hope to win points in heaven for their generousity. > > Although highly principled at one time, when our know-how was > less advanced, this whole anemic, under-powered "do gooder" > ethic/aesthetics is wearing thin, is increasingly lacking > in persuasiveness and credibility. The integrity of our > institutions (not just religious but financial), and the > key which anchors them, requires that we accommodate > technology in realistic scenarios, and not just play act > and pretend to do our work, to follow our callings.[5] > > A religious order with any integrity at all will not shirk its > responsibilities to train its people in the use of the most > appropriate technologies conceivable, and that means paying > attention to design science and Bucky-style contributions. A > code of ethics which states its mission is to "help people" but > refuses to think realistically about ways in which our highest > technologies might be used in the field, is too > self-contradictory, too hypocritical to sustain itself > operationally over the long haul. > > Religious languages which completely ignore design science do > so at their own peril. As history reveals, religions and the > most sophisticated technologies of their day have in some > cultures gone hand in hand (within certain maritime traditions > for example). This relationship will continue, but only among > those who manage to heal the rifts between their science and > their highest principles. > > Those languages which pit science against religion haven't got > a prayer. Many such languages/codes have already gone to the > bottom, from my secularized (yet principled-enough) USA-based > point of view, and are unsalvagable at this point -- but the > souls who died with them (metaphysically speaking) are > resurrectable, once provided with a language that makes more > sense, holds water, contains a critical mass of intelligence, > and is therefore more adequately reflective of eternal > principles and the true responsibilities of humans in Universe. > > Kirby > > Relevant links (end notes): > > [1] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bworks.html > [2] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/poster1.html > [3] http://www.wnet.org/cgi-bin/bucky-bin/netforum/bf/a/3-17 > [4] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/pr.html > [5] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gstwork.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 02:50:42 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: North Korea ready to make giant leap into space exploration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is an update: Pyongyang offers to scrap weapons for free satellites In a confidential exchange of letters, North Korea has reaffirmed to Russia that it will drop its intercontinental ballistic missile program if other countries will launch two or three satellites a year for Pyongyang at their expense, well-informed sources said. http://www.smh.com.au:80/news/0008/05/text/world13.html mail@SpaceshipEarth.com wrote: > > At the G-8 summit, "Putin reported back on an offer made to him > by North Korean leader Kim Jong Il to scrap the nation's missile > program in return for help on space exploration. " > > Just what one of the poorest Asian countries needs, space > exploration! I'm all for it, let them join the International > Space Station. Sounds like they need help developing longer range missiles. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:02:56 -0400 Reply-To: bobwb@channel1.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Burkhardt Organization: Tensegrity Solutions Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frei Otto, who's certainly up there with Bucky as a creative proponent of natural design, has this technique of suspending a flexibly-linked catenary net hanging at several support points, or sometimes lines of support (like a hoop supporting a bubble). The network joints are then frozen and the structure is turned upside down and the support points/lines by which it was hanging now become the foundation. This supposedly yields the best shape for a structure to resist gravity. Bob Lee Bonnifield wrote: > > Is a parabolic dome more stable when built in a *gravity field* > > than a spherical dome? Might the unidirectional force of gravity > > make a difference, requiring a slightly different shape to resist > > it? > > I bet a parabolic is more stable, altho I have not seen engineering data > or discussion about how Earth's gravity field affects geodesic > structures. > > If you want to minimize material in a semi-rigid shell which will be > located in orbit or otherwise floating in deep space I imagine the > optimal solution will be spherical. For a given material with particular > tensile and compressive strengths, if it is located in a uniform > gravitational field like is encountered on Earth's surface, that > material will be minimized using a NON-spherical shape. If every > component has this added stress of its own weight, all pulling in the > same direction, the structure that minimizes material will make a > special accommodation in that direction. I intuit that the change from > spherical would be toward parabolic, not oblate. (That is, an oblate > vertical axis doorknob shape also makes an accommodation in the vertical > direction but probably INCREASES stress across the flattened roof.) > Maybe the accommodation could also be made by using different strut > cross sections at different elevations while keeping a spherical shape. > > I'll bet a vertical accommodation is even more important with tensegrity > structures. Gravity seems to make no difference with small tensegrity > models where the components are much stronger than is necessary to > support their own weight. But if you scale up and minimize materials, > gravity will have an obvious effect. I built a spherical 12 strut > tensegrity using 13 foot green poplar tree trunks weighing about 15 > pounds each, and could not keep it from sagging. It should have stood > with only 3 strut ends touching the ground, but 6 would hit. Only when > the tree trunks dried out (to maybe 8 pounds each) did it stand up > correctly on 3 points. I bet it would have stood on 3 points even when > the struts were heavy if I had adjusted the tendon lengths in a way that > recognized the unidirectional gravity field, but I could never figure > out what adjustments to make. In my casual WWW search I never found any > helpful analysis of the effect of gravity on geodesic structures. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:09:13 -0400 Reply-To: bobwb@channel1.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Burkhardt Organization: Tensegrity Solutions Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I haven't been doing tensegrity calcs since I got this job at Gamesville. I do hope to get back to it in the future. I could do the calcs you talk about for a tensegrity, and there must be software out there that does it for a dome. Like I said in my previous message, the catenary approach seems to yield the best design for resisting gravity. Bob Lee Bonnifield wrote: > I should have mentioned Bob Burkhardt's studies of how tensegrity > tendons stretch, which is certainly related. My poplar tensegrity had > steel tendons with negligible stretch, but the struts bowed under the > stress. That makes them effectively shorter, leading to similar > structural difficulties as tendon stretch with stiff struts. I forget > the details, but Bob was able to correctly calculate which of the poplar > tensegrity tendons were slack when I described how it was sagging. I > think he also knows how tendons at different elevations see different > stresses. Maybe by now he can calculate absolute stress (not just > relative) for a given strut weight. > > Almost all of the information I've come across about geodesic domes and > tensegrities ignores gravity and the weight of the struts. That's fine > for building models, where you don't mind using much stronger materials > than are necessary. For ephemeral building > I think it is very difficult to learn how strut weight should affect > design. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:08:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] Ralph Nader qualifies for ballot in 34 states <> Brian Q. Hutchings 07-AUG-2000 22:08 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us good for Ralph; I do not know the final tally, but Lyn was on the ballot in at least 29 states, including the ones from which he should have gotten delegates, by state & federal laws. thus quoth: The Nader Campaign also announced that it has placed on its Web site a new "Web alert" on the subject of debate access. To view the "Web alert," go to http://www.votenader.org. I wonder if Nader'd allow us to file amicus brief with his suit on the FEC deabates' sponsorship; what do you think? --Old News! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 07:45:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Play's simple design conveys span of Fuller's wit, wisdom (8-08-2000) Comments: To: _DomeHomeList MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0010C.940EB100" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0010C.940EB100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Review of Bucky play in SF (San Jose Mercury News): http://www.sjmercury.com/premium/ent/docs/bucky8.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0010C.940EB100 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Play's simple design conveys span of Fuller's wit, wisdom (8-08-2000).url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Play's simple design conveys span of Fuller's wit, wisdom (8-08-2000).url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.sjmercury.com/premium/ent/docs/bucky8.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.sjmercury.com/premium/ent/docs/bucky8.htm Modified=20AA51FD4601C00120 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0010C.940EB100-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:27:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: eggs and bubbles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I am stuck on the exclusion of monolithic domes from the criteria required to see them as geodesic structures. Eggs and bubbles and viral shells and such to me are by definition geodesic structures, by which I mean nature's design. Why not human's attempts at more or less the same method? ===== Dick FischbeckHubdome(copyright2000)/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>Do your own thinking. UTOPIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:37:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: say it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What is the usual way to pronounce 'geodesic', short or long e. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 15:18:59 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Fw: Weekly search report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My latest search stats--JSM ----- Original Message ----- From: "FreeFind report robot" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 12:02 PM Subject: Weekly search report > Note: Do not reply to this email! > This message was automatically generated by your FreeFind > search engine. For help, to unsubscribe, or to contact a human, > see the information at the very end of this email. Thanks! > > <>--------------------------------------------------------------<> > From: FreeFind Staff > Subject: Weekly search report > Site ID: ----- > Account URL: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > Account EMail: joemoore@cruzio.com > > <>--------------------------------------------------------------<> > Daily Search Activity > --------------------- > From: Sun Jul 30 00:00:00 PDT 2000 > To: Sun Aug 06 00:00:00 PDT 2000 > > Day Date Queries > --- ------ ------- > Sun Jul 30 19 > Mon Jul 31 2 > Total for week: 21 > Tue Aug 01 7 > Wed Aug 02 10 > Thu Aug 03 4 > Fri Aug 04 18 > Sat Aug 05 10 > Total for week: 49 > > <>--------------------------------------------------------------<> > Top 50 Keywords > --------------- > From: Sun Jul 30 00:00:00 PDT 2000 > To: Sun Aug 06 00:00:00 PDT 2000 > (Not including common words such as "the") > > Count Keyword > ----- ------- > 10 icosa > 6 language > 6 books > 6 universal > 5 advertsinging > 5 dome > 5 synergetics > 5 effect > 4 geodesic > 3 san > 3 demkin > 3 clemens > 3 francisco > 3 kalischer > 3 pole > 3 aiq > 2 house > 2 tensegrity > 2 bears > 2 words > 2 tools > 2 goldie > 2 freeware > 2 locks > 2 three > 2 as > 1 materials > 1 membership > 1 educational > 1 domes > 1 marlin > 1 construction > 1 lighting > 1 weaving > 1 lines > 1 linguistics > 1 amphitheaters > 1 row > 1 plame > 1 saxon > 1 boats > 1 plane > 1 self > 1 triaxial > 1 ley > 1 interior > 1 hopster > 1 aircraft > 1 anglo > 1 greenhouse > > <>--------------------------------------------------------------<> > Most Recent Queries > ------------------- > > Day Time of Query Query > --- -------------------- --------------- > Tue Aug 08 11:41:18 2000 dinamaxon > Tue Aug 08 11:18:54 2000 icosa > Tue Aug 08 10:00:21 2000 address > Tue Aug 08 07:35:49 2000 dimaxion map > Tue Aug 08 06:40:45 2000 montreal > Tue Aug 08 06:32:39 2000 drop city > Mon Aug 07 13:51:16 2000 expo > Mon Aug 07 10:48:15 2000 dymaxion > Mon Aug 07 10:47:49 2000 dymaxion > Mon Aug 07 10:47:45 2000 dymaxion > Mon Aug 07 10:47:00 2000 dymaxion > Mon Aug 07 10:45:36 2000 dymaxion > Mon Aug 07 10:43:58 2000 dymaxion > Mon Aug 07 10:43:39 2000 dymaxion > Mon Aug 07 09:07:14 2000 dymaxion > Mon Aug 07 07:36:20 2000 weave > Sun Aug 06 21:06:40 2000 domes > Sun Aug 06 17:57:18 2000 dome room > Sun Aug 06 15:28:45 2000 fuller's earth > Sun Aug 06 13:23:52 2000 houses > Sun Aug 06 10:21:33 2000 nugent > Sat Aug 05 22:59:48 2000 lighting > Sat Aug 05 18:54:30 2000 clemens kalischer > Sat Aug 05 18:53:21 2000 "clemens kalischer" > Sat Aug 05 18:52:46 2000 "clemens kalischer" > Sat Aug 05 13:06:14 2000 san francisco > Sat Aug 05 13:04:34 2000 san francisco > Sat Aug 05 13:04:09 2000 san francisco > Sat Aug 05 12:41:06 2000 self-triangulation > Sat Aug 05 10:14:58 2000 educational materials > Sat Aug 05 02:57:00 2000 hopster > Fri Aug 04 22:59:35 2000 goldie locks > Fri Aug 04 22:58:51 2000 three bears > Fri Aug 04 22:58:49 2000 three bears > Fri Aug 04 22:57:34 2000 books > Fri Aug 04 22:57:08 2000 books > Fri Aug 04 22:56:39 2000 books > Fri Aug 04 22:55:29 2000 books > Fri Aug 04 22:55:28 2000 books > Fri Aug 04 22:54:39 2000 goldie locks > Fri Aug 04 22:52:19 2000 books > Fri Aug 04 15:48:16 2000 triaxial weaving > Fri Aug 04 13:18:09 2000 geodesic dome > Fri Aug 04 13:18:04 2000 geodesic dome > Fri Aug 04 13:17:40 2000 amphitheaters > Fri Aug 04 08:01:24 2000 tensegrity > Fri Aug 04 05:25:53 2000 tensegrity > Fri Aug 04 04:49:23 2000 plane > Fri Aug 04 04:45:45 2000 plame > Thu Aug 03 22:40:07 2000 aiq freeware > > <>------<> Link to FreeFind <>--------------------------------<> > > If you like FreeFind *please* link to us from your site. > Use the following HTML to produce a link to our site. > Just copy and paste this HTML: > > Indexed by the FreeFind > Search Engine. > > <>------------ FreeFind Help & Contact Information -------------<> > > FAQ: http://www.FreeFind.com/faq.html > Contact: http://www.FreeFind.com/contact.html > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:09:50 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: re say it MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0015B.768D5740" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0015B.768D5740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable quote: What is the usual way to pronounce 'geodesic', short or long e. unquote. Which "e"? : ) Vote for "Godzilla" this fall for presidente of the USA ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0015B.768D5740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
quote:
 
What is the usual way to pronounce = 'geodesic',=20 short
or long e.
 
unquote.
 
Which "e"? : )
 
Vote for "Godzilla" this fall for = presidente of the=20 USA
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0015B.768D5740-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 19:08:46 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] Environment: Extinction coming? <> Brian Q. Hutchings 08-AUG-2000 19:08 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us although there are commercial ventures to tap the hydrates, the assumptions about "global" warming are profoundly strange, given the data form the US Reference Climate Network; however, differntial heating of the tropics could be a problem. thus quoth: escape of "huge reservoirs of methane trapped beneath the ocean floor" was responsible for a mass extinction event 183 million years ago says AP 7/27. The big burp occurred "during prehistoric global warming" and scientists now wonder about the stability of "methane hydrate --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 19:15:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] Ralph Nader qualifies for ballot in 34 states <> Brian Q. Hutchings 08-AUG-2000 19:15 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us I see that Nader's campaign is basing their criteria upon "5 polls with 5% each," not on the previously-announced one of having gotten federal matching funds. of course, these pollsters agree with the DNC, that we are not "bona fide" as Democrats -- although they can give no truthful reason. thus quoth: A reasonable criteria would be that any candidate with support of 5% or more in five selected national polls should be let in. Alternatively, if more than 50% of the population when asked directly wants the candidate to participate, the CPD should listen to the American electorate and allow the candidate to debate. The Nader campaign is pushing for a fair criteria. http://www.votenader.org/debates/happenings.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:13:16 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Corporate Management Guru Interview on the New Economy Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sage Advice The foremost business thinker of our age tells what is wrong (and right) with the New Economy. http://www.business2.com/content/magazine/indepth/2000/08/08/15450 Some excerpts from Peter Drucker interview: Typically, the speculative boom precedes the growth of the real businesses by 10 years. The first great speculative boom of our modern economy was with the railroads. The great English railroad boom in the 1830s led to a collapse of many of the first companies in the early 1840s. After that, railroad building began in earnest. The same happened in this country after the Civil War. The railroad boom was in the 1860s. But railroad building, and profit-making, only began in earnest with the transcontinental railroad after the Civil War. Does that 10-year beginnings-to-boom timetable still apply? Do you think it will take a decade before we see the real champions of the New Economy emerge? Yes. The promise in any new business in any new industry is that you have to buy back every penny you spend. The impact of the Net on higher education is almost certain to be very much greater than on any business. The average knowledge worker will outlive the average employing organization. This is the first time in history that this has happened. You must have a great deal of knowledge today, and it must often be highly focused. So the center of gravity of higher education is already shifting from the education of the young to the continuing education of adults. Skills in business used to change very slowly. My last name, drucker , is Dutch. It means printer. My ancestors were printers in Amsterdam from 1510 or so until 1750 and during that entire time they didn’t have to learn anything new. All of the basic innovations in printing after the 19th century had been done by the early 16th century. Socrates was stone mason. If he came back to life and went to work in a stone yard, it would take him about six hours to catch on. Neither the tools nor the products have changed. Will this ongoing quest for continuing education affect the structure of the corporation? Almost certainly. The corporation as we know it, which is now 120 years old, is unlikely to survive the next 25 years. Legally and financially yes, but not structurally and economically. Today’s corporation is structured around layers of management. Most of those layers are information relays, and like any relays, they are very poor. Every transfer of information cuts the message in half. There needs to be very few layers of management in the future and those who relay the information must be very smart. But knowledge, as you know, often becomes obsolete incredibly fast. The continuing professional education of adults is the No. 1 gross industry in the next 30 years, but not in the traditional form. In five years, we will deliver most of our executive management programs online. The Internet combines the advantages of both class and book. In a book you can go back to page 16. In a class you can’t, but in a class there is a physical presence; and on the Internet you have both. Several years ago you set down the five dos and the three don’ts of innovation. If you were to create those rules for innovation today, what would they be? Today you need an organization that is a change leader, not just an innovator. Five years ago, you had an enormous amount of literature on creativity. Most of creativity is the normal amount of hard and systematic work. Fifteen years ago, everyone wanted to be an innovative company, but unless you are a "change leader" company you won’t have the mindset for innovation. Innovation has to have a systematic approach. And innovation is very unpredictable. the market is almost never where the inventor thinks it will be. No more than 10 or 15 percent of innovations move up to that founder’s wishes. Another 15, 20, or 30 percent are not disastrous, but not successes either. Five years later they’ll say that this is a nice specialty. You know what that means, don’t you? It means you have to wrap it in a five-dollar bill to give it away. Sixty percent are footnotes at best. Timing is also important. An invention may not succeed, but 10 years later someone else does the same thing, but gives it a slight twist and it clicks. Sometimes strategies are more important than the innovation itself. The trouble is that you rarely get a second chance. Any thoughts on the Microsoft antitrust trial? Antitrust is an obsession of American lawyers, but I have no use for it. Any monopoly holds an umbrella over the newcomers, to be sure, but I am not afraid of monopolies because they eventually collapse. Thucydides wrote years ago that hegemony kills itself. A power that has hegemony always becomes arrogant. Always becomes overweened. And always unites the rest of the world against it. A countervailing power always reacts. A hegemonous system is very self-destructive. It becomes defensive, arrogant, and a defender of yesterday. It destroys itself. Therefore no monopoly in history lives for very long. The best thing that could happen to an old monopoly is to be broken up. If antitrust had not forced IBM to give up the punch card, it would never have become the computer giant. The best thing that happened to the Rockefellers was to be broken up. The Rockefellers were wedded to kerosene. They considered gasoline a fad. By the time Standard Oil was broken up, it was on the decline. The new companies that were focusing on the growing car market, like Texaco, were growing by leaps and bounds. And five years later, the Rockefeller fortune was ten times what it had been before it was broken up. So I think the best thing that could happen to Microsoft is to be broken up into several pieces. I do not think Bill Gates would agree with me, but then Mr. Rockefeller did not agree either. What the new economy or new society will look like you can’t predict, but you can see certain trends and some things I believe you can anticipate. In the last 40 or 50 years, economics was dominant. In the next 20 or 30 years, social issues will be dominant. The rapidly growing aging population and the rapidly shrinking younger population means there will be social problems. Because of manufacturing advances, production will increase exponentially. Employment is disappearing. Blue collar employment and the share in manufacturing of gross national product is going down. We came out of World War II with farming still employing 25 percent of the work force, and producing some 20 percent of the gross national product. It is down to 3 and 5 percent now. And manufacturing is in the same direction, but maybe not going that far down, if you translate manufacturing goods prices into stable dollars. They have been going down at least 1 to 2 percent a year since 1960. What do you believe is the future of business on the Internet? I think it’s too early to speculate about ecommerce. One never knows how a new distribution channel will change what is being distributed and how customer values will change. If ecommerce takes only a relatively small part of the total consumer business, (and it may take a fairly large part), it will have a profound impact, and force existing distribution channels to change radically. Other changes are also profound. Because for the first time selling, making, and delivery are separated. The center of power has been shifting to distribution now for 50 years. That’s accelerated several orders of magnitude. How many manufacturing plants will survive? Not many. But so far the distributor has squandered that power. The distributors already have the brands, but only a very few of the very big manufacturers have brands that have real standing in the consumer market. In other areas, the design of a product, its manufacture, marketing and servicing will become separate businesses. They will be owned by the same financial control but basically run as separate businesses. Ford is considered a manufacturing company, but they don’t manufacture anything. They assemble. Which is a radical break with the mass-production concept. So the changes are very profound and very deep and very long lasting. And we are just beginning to understand what it all means. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:25:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: eBay item 403183111 (Ends Aug-11-00 204518 PDT) - Geodesic Buckminster FULLER m MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C001EC.1CF67F40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C001EC.1CF67F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nice B&W pic of Bucky for sale at eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=40318 3111 Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C001EC.1CF67F40 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="eBay item 403183111 (Ends Aug-11-00 204518 PDT) - Geodesic Buckminster FULLER matted portrait.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="eBay item 403183111 (Ends Aug-11-00 204518 PDT) - Geodesic Buckminster FULLER matted portrait.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=3DView= Item&item=3D403183111 [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=3DViewItem= &item=3D403183111 Modified=3DA0DF08A12602C00111 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C001EC.1CF67F40-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 17:42:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Search Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00229.24C85F80" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00229.24C85F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 35 articles about "Tensegrity" at UnCover: http://uncweb.carl.org/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?resultsScreen+23738+1+10+21 Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00229.24C85F80 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Search Results.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Search Results.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://uncweb.carl.org/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?resultsScreen+23738+1+10+21 [InternetShortcut] URL=http://uncweb.carl.org/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?resultsScreen+23738+1+10+21 Modified=80BB8B936302C0017F ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00229.24C85F80-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 18:37:00 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Search Results <> Brian Q. Hutchings 09-AUG-2000 18:36 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us those seemed like interesting articles, but it'd be nice to see an abstract, at $27 a pop (plus fax-charge, if any). I have often wondered at the efficacy of martial arts for osteo-arthritis, for example (after reading an anecdote .-) I presume that UnCover is a database of "all journals" of some kind. 35 articles about "Tensegrity" at UnCover: http://uncweb.carl.org/cgi-bin/cw_cgi?resultsScreen+23738+1+10+21 --Jump Up an'Down Like the Media for Sur and/or Sun George! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 18:52:27 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] [Mike's Message] Using the Supreme Court to Scare Me In <> Brian Q. Hutchings 09-AUG-2000 18:52 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us I have not read the article, which I will, in conjunction with an earlier post about the RC "as seen" from England -- Labour or Tory or other? you could have guessed, before, that the Bush family outlook was actually pro-abortion. after all, they used to call UN Ambassador George, Rubbers!... they are, in a word, arch-malthusians. harking unto the 2 "frontrunners'" 2 gens of oil-wealth, it is easy to see that they, and Nader, are exactly alike on the issues of the Kyoto Protocols and "Choice" -- as in, Choose your partner ("hardrightwing Senators for Choice" or "orthodoxjewish Senators for Choice" !-) is this why, perhaps, the media can hold to "objectivity" in their reporting, because they just don't care, along with most potential voters? thus quoth: Truth, has written a very persuasive argument that a Bush presidency will not reverse Roe v. Wade. For the full article, go to [www.michaelmoore.com]. --Jump Up an'Down Like the Media for Sur and/or Sun George! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 18:51:56 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: philip szeto Subject: Re: The Politics of Prosperity (cross-posted from Tetworldlist.bot) Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Re: What may be the trendy factor, I'm not sure? Dear Readers: The English have called it the Gillet and the French calling it the Guillotine, for beheadings and spectacles. A razor blade company in America combined the two names, now were calling it Gillette Razor Blade Company, a french sounding play on words celebrating the english version of Guillotine. Now one of the most famous of the companies on the Dow Jones, has been perscribed by none other than Financial Investor Warren Buffet. What's wrong with "this picture" became very obvious when one saw this book at Border Books once. What have been missing in my files and huge library of books, on every subject in the world. The book is called the Encyclopedia of Executions! The book won an Award for excellence. But, other than that it's of no value or confidence, no consequence. What we now see in today's world have always been the design world of Executions of Women, never heard or done in such unwholesome variety, add that to supply and demand. The politics of dirtiness reaches the shock value of media. What usually were the reasons of non- commitment to these trends as economy was befitting at Pre-dawn era of Dark Age comparing the Modern Dark Age, started circa 1785. Women were never mutilated in such unwholesome numbers, their body parts were never separated in such peculiar variety, strewn apart, especially for sexual pleasure by both sexes in large mass media variety. Not since the coming of Pre-Maria Antoinette Era have we seen such dirtiness, without wartime. The prosperity machine of politics and prisons have not always included women in the most usual of the circumstances, till recently. But now, since bombast does not include women as a holy wellspring of procreation, the prosperity of politics have now the thread of that change in its statistics. So, women become the men in ever increasing numbers; what is wrong with that is the sanctity of something that is still regarded a deeper mystery than most things, women as vehicle of creation. The image aspects of death, mutilation, and executions left a wellspring of attaching honors for the women of that group for non-humility, death for show and amusements. Where death occurs by disembowelment in ethnic village raids, Nazi pictures, or Cambodia's pits of mass gravesites. Where impalement, especially of the genitalia, has always been a favorite. Death by decapitation of women civilians, death by axing so has all these elements in the invitational shock and of the prosperity of the newer economy. Depictions of women hacking women to death, by image; consequently, women in prisons in ever increasing numbers for the sake of the shock value...of that; and finally, the artifice of creation while that of women are now being used by outer-space aliens for creating their next of kin, half alien and half human born. So now, prosperity and economy have largely disproportionately meaningful attitudes, what we buy now are fetish toys for these amusements men watching and women doing, and they're Dow Jones somewhere in the hidden ness of these buying-economies. The design being that there are always more artificially produced goods, because supply side need the prison thinking demand side need them too, creating the burnout, crash and burn of the morality of prosperity. Women has always been a tough market, but when the same women relying on rituals that do not allow them to walk the streets at night anymore; such as, electronic disembowelment really amiss for transplants. What has hoaxed Design-science, images of toughie women murders? What has been the standard of what buying power means before women came into the execution and mayhem markets of prosperity, economy, and supply-and-demand in the way of executions of men and women in shock of imagery on media. Talk Shows are about doing unholy images to family! Women walk around with tattoos and piercing in the the most odd varieties and norms. All in the name of Femme Fatale, the better of economy of fierce trend has never needed mutilation, decapitation, and ritual disembowelment. Gorging out of a women most intricate and still most superstitious parts of her body for show depicts a lack of real world attachments to ritualistic murders, fueling ever bigger ones electronically, such as sterile banking order of moneys executions. Watching a person die by anime on Big Screen TV! These are editorial-comments, about artificial wealth's exclusiveness by destruction of...women's virtue. Thanks: Philip ---------------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:31:40 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Dome design <> Brian Q. Hutchings 09-AUG-2000 19:31 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us again, I ask: Where is the other focus (when one focus is at the active center of Earth (or the local-for-you barycenter, wherever that is) of the ellipse of your running orbits? (walking, you'll always have a foot on the ground.) thus saith: when you walk on Earth, you are effectively making tiny, elliptical orbits with every step (one focus is earthcenter, the other is, where?) and so on! --Jump Up an'Down Like the Media for Sur and/or Sun George! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:23:21 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Corporate Management Guru Interview on the New Economy <> Brian Q. Hutchings 09-AUG-2000 20:23 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us I'll try to unhorse a backlog of mail, here. Before getting to the 2 short essays that I got through these 2 maillists, quaker-p and geodesic-l, I want to note that 2 respondents did not "get" what I meant, in glossing over an article that was linked from Business Week, that reference to "the Gilded Age" can be taken as a warning. (This was further denoted by a lack of response, to my follow-on about the hagiographies of presidents TR and WW, which are the rotten meat & potatoes of schooling in the USA, since the Fabians hit Chicago University, some time ago. Here's the citation: The Politics of Prosperity http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_32/b3693001.htm .) The warning has to do with "cycles of business," as they are called by the modern worshippers of Fortuna, the sages of the New Economy, like Drucker, and what followed upon the Gilded Age. (I thought, it was the Depression; what ever .-) OK, I just read the 2 articles! Drucker is surely interesting; I liked his comment about the Rockefellers being "wedded to kerosene," that they thought gasoline a fad, before Standard Oil was broken up. It shold mainly be noted that most of his references pre-suppose a relationship of neocolonialism, in manufacturing e.g., and one has only to look at the structure of the Commonwealth to see this, written across the dateline (a-hem: Sun ne'er rises !-) Drucker, being of Dutch extraction, perhaps unconsciously knows of the Anglo-Dutch prominence in cartel-trade, or he just knows (see the "Global Business Network" of Brand et al). I do not grok his statements about his familial line of work, printing, which seems to be misstated: what about Penguin Ltd.'s innovation of the mass-market book (before the paperback) in 1776? As for the "English view" or B2K-- I mean, R2MC, perhaps you're correct about the unlikelihood of Shrub's hot-pursuit of Hussein into the stormy desert, but the policy of organizing the opposition is actively pursued by Gore, with millions being earmarked (if not yet given) for weapons & materiel. The fact is that no degree of cynicism (or hard reporting) from your reporters o'er the pond will make any difference, since the Queen and her retinue are not liable to pursue the opinions of her Subjects in the Commonwealth, accept as a matter of "MK-infra" (pioneered at Tavistock, of course) -- much as the RNC and DNC use polling, or as Gore's personal bringing- in of Dick Morris -- led to the loss of both houses of Congress! We quote from "[Q-P] Republican convention seen from England": The NewsNight reporters tend to be skeptical of all government and official spokespersons, and they keep after the main point better than most American TV interviewers. Since every official spokerperson would prefer not to talk about the main point but to make his or her own all-is-well speech, NewsNight --Jump Up an'Down Like the Media for Sur and/or Sun George! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 02:43:19 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Corporate Management Guru Interview on the New Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Hutchings wrote: > > I want to note that > 2 respondents did not "get" what I meant, in glossing > over an article that was linked from Business Week, > that reference to "the Gilded Age" can be taken as a warning. Unfortunately, you didn't explain what you meant, so I was left to guess. Since your postings are often so vague and confusing, I prefer to delete them rather than read them. According to online references I consulted, the Gilded Age was a period in US history, between the Civil War and WW I marked by gross materialism and blatant political corruption. So I was referring to that. I can see some comparisons there, between that age of industrial growth and the emergence of the so called new economy, with the possibility of an ominous warning. Both are marked by new technologies, greed, and exploitation of people and the environment. But there are a lot of people with a social conscience today working to use our new technologies for the betterment of humanity. The internet was filled with idealism, until businesses jumped in trying to take control of it with their greed, but they've had mixed results in that respect, and, in the process, accelerated the development of the internet to take the information explosion to the countries in most need of it. As Jeff Bezos said, "It's still day one of the internet," and it's been a dazzling first day. > The warning has to do with "cycles of business," > as they are called by the modern worshippers of Fortuna, > the sages of the New Economy, like Drucker, and > what followed upon the Gilded Age. (I thought, > it was the Depression; what ever .-) Yes, I could have guessed that, but, again, I simply don't give much attention to your messages. They're mostly politically motivated. Buckminster Fuller was apolitical and felt that governments and politics were obsolete, and as a list for the discussion of his work, this list is apolitical. The fact is, the "powers that be" want people to waste a lot of time wrangling with political issues, it's part of their divide and conquer strategy. As I've stated recently, politics, with its conscience of scarcity and us against them mentality, is poorly adapted to the new reality of abundance. Better to work on life support strategies that will make politics, racism and other artificial divisions obsolete. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 03:36:36 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: politics will simply fade away MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a note I found, I don't know where I got it from. Buckminster Fuller was a little ahead of his time, but I do believe that politics is increasingly irrelevant and is slowly fading away. Most likely, and enduring institution like politics will transform itself rather than just fade away. Buckminster Fuller's forecast in 1966 that, by 2000, "amid general plenty, politics will simply fade away." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:31:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Corporate Management Guru Interview on the New Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with SpaceshipEarth completely. Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 7:43 PM Subject: Re: Corporate Management Guru Interview on the New Economy > Brian Hutchings wrote: > > > > I want to note that > > 2 respondents did not "get" what I meant, in glossing > > over an article that was linked from Business Week, > > that reference to "the Gilded Age" can be taken as a warning. > > Unfortunately, you didn't explain what you meant, so I was left > to guess. Since your postings are often so vague and confusing, I > prefer to delete them rather than read them. According to online > references I consulted, the Gilded Age was a period in US > history, between the Civil War and WW I marked by gross > materialism and blatant political corruption. So I was referring > to that. I can see some comparisons there, between that age of > industrial growth and the emergence of the so called new economy, > with the possibility of an ominous warning. Both are marked by > new technologies, greed, and exploitation of people and the > environment. But there are a lot of people with a social > conscience today working to use our new technologies for the > betterment of humanity. The internet was filled with idealism, > until businesses jumped in trying to take control of it with > their greed, but they've had mixed results in that respect, and, > in the process, accelerated the development of the internet to > take the information explosion to the countries in most need of > it. As Jeff Bezos said, "It's still day one of the internet," and > it's been a dazzling first day. > > > The warning has to do with "cycles of business," > > as they are called by the modern worshippers of Fortuna, > > the sages of the New Economy, like Drucker, and > > what followed upon the Gilded Age. (I thought, > > it was the Depression; what ever .-) > > Yes, I could have guessed that, but, again, I simply don't give > much attention to your messages. They're mostly politically > motivated. Buckminster Fuller was apolitical and felt that > governments and politics were obsolete, and as a list for the > discussion of his work, this list is apolitical. The fact is, the > "powers that be" want people to waste a lot of time wrangling > with political issues, it's part of their divide and conquer > strategy. As I've stated recently, politics, with its conscience > of scarcity and us against them mentality, is poorly adapted to > the new reality of abundance. Better to work on life support > strategies that will make politics, racism and other artificial > divisions obsolete. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:27:49 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Amid General Plenty Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What an inviting idea, that 'general plenty' is. Boy, Bucky really puts it well. Love that general plenty. I really can't wait for the problem of distributing the wealth. I can't help feeling that that is where we are headed. Wealth is increasing now at an increasingly difficult-to-understand rate. What is the world's wealth now anyway and where is the ticker tracking it? Have we topped a quadrillion dollars yet? I like World Game ticker, philanthropy. --- SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM wrote: > Here's a note I found, I don't know where I got it > from. > Buckminster Fuller was a little ahead of his time, > but I do > believe that politics is increasingly irrelevant and > is slowly > fading away. Most likely, and enduring institution > like politics > will transform itself rather than just fade away. > > Buckminster Fuller's forecast in 1966 that, by 2000, > "amid > general plenty, politics will simply fade away." ===== Dick Fischbeck Hubdome, Patent-pending pending. UTOPIA, aka 'the future'. /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\ There are no bad kids!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 05:18:43 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Putting photovoltaics into perspective Comments: To: Bruce Sterling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like these simple figures for solar panels. Let's get them installed on top of all our buildings and quit letting all that sunlight go to waste. Mark may be able to use this. http://www.popsci.com/hometech/news/000811.h.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:27:05 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: Corporate Management Guru Interview on the New Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me too. thanks, spaceship.... Joe S Moore wrote: > I agree with SpaceshipEarth completely. > > Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 7:43 PM > Subject: Re: Corporate Management Guru Interview on the New Economy > > > Brian Hutchings wrote: > > > > > > I want to note that > > > 2 respondents did not "get" what I meant, in glossing > > > over an article that was linked from Business Week, > > > that reference to "the Gilded Age" can be taken as a warning. > > > > Unfortunately, you didn't explain what you meant, so I was left > > to guess. Since your postings are often so vague and confusing, I > > prefer to delete them rather than read them. According to online > > references I consulted, the Gilded Age was a period in US > > history, between the Civil War and WW I marked by gross > > materialism and blatant political corruption. So I was referring > > to that. I can see some comparisons there, between that age of > > industrial growth and the emergence of the so called new economy, > > with the possibility of an ominous warning. Both are marked by > > new technologies, greed, and exploitation of people and the > > environment. But there are a lot of people with a social > > conscience today working to use our new technologies for the > > betterment of humanity. The internet was filled with idealism, > > until businesses jumped in trying to take control of it with > > their greed, but they've had mixed results in that respect, and, > > in the process, accelerated the development of the internet to > > take the information explosion to the countries in most need of > > it. As Jeff Bezos said, "It's still day one of the internet," and > > it's been a dazzling first day. > > > > > The warning has to do with "cycles of business," > > > as they are called by the modern worshippers of Fortuna, > > > the sages of the New Economy, like Drucker, and > > > what followed upon the Gilded Age. (I thought, > > > it was the Depression; what ever .-) > > > > Yes, I could have guessed that, but, again, I simply don't give > > much attention to your messages. They're mostly politically > > motivated. Buckminster Fuller was apolitical and felt that > > governments and politics were obsolete, and as a list for the > > discussion of his work, this list is apolitical. The fact is, the > > "powers that be" want people to waste a lot of time wrangling > > with political issues, it's part of their divide and conquer > > strategy. As I've stated recently, politics, with its conscience > > of scarcity and us against them mentality, is poorly adapted to > > the new reality of abundance. Better to work on life support > > strategies that will make politics, racism and other artificial > > divisions obsolete. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 11:38:10 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: General Plenty via photovoltaics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E1F4EF7A45BCB6A9F5203B93" --------------E1F4EF7A45BCB6A9F5203B93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a draft mtv video clip script modified from ...song lyrics by the beatles.. so you can sing along General Plenty (while guitar gently weeps) i look at you all see the love there that's sleeping while my guitar gently weeps. I do know why nobody told you how to unfold your love. I do know how someone controlled you .... bought and soooolld you. I look at the world and I notice it's turning. At every mis-take we must surely be learning. Still my guitar gently weeps. I do know how you were diverted how you were perverted too. I do know why nobody told you, why no one alerted you.... and my guitar gently weeeeeeps. (once there was a way to get back home) Yes there is a way to get back home. Yes there is a way to get back home. Sleep pretty darling do not cry and i will sing a lullaby... Golden sunlight fills your eyes. True wealth awaits you when you rise. Oh, you've carried that weight a long time. (octopus's garden) We can end the scarcity and do it it intelligently. No more hungry eyes covered with flies. No more corporate lies to siphon what can now be free. No more personal ties to either live the lie, or die. No more gunboat policy of you instead of me, the saga of oil's history. We know how - now - you see to build a solar hydrogen economy. In ten years time we're free. This dream can truly be. With less work than Apollo we can make it grow. Silicon occurs abundantly, makes sunlight into electricity, which zaps water easily into its elemental constituency: hydrogen stored and transported safely. No environmental penalty. Plenty enough for you and me. Gas pipeline infrastructure here today. Machines to power home and car on display. Unused Arizona desert enough for USA. Global sunlit area enough for Gaia, eh? Plenty enough for you and me. Already cheaper than gas you see, if you count cost of military to keep the sea lanes 'for me'. Start in a southwestern city. Power vehicle fleets with subsidy. In 10 years the world is free. Plenty enough for you and me. Oh what joy for every girl and boy, knowing they're happy and they're safe. I want my friends to come and be in this abundance with me. (here comes the sun) Little darling, it's been along cold lonely history Little darling, it's never yet been clear, but... Here comes the sun. Here comes the sun. And I say it's all right For thousands of years, the courage and curiosity of Galileos, Leonard's, and Buckys leading us inescapably homeward, toward the freedom of general plenty. All of us, drawn by longing, learning to trust redemonstrable evidence only, always and only. Knowhow enough now. Wisdom enough not yet here. But we're at the door somehow, and we've never before been here. Little darling, I feel that ice is slowing melting. Here comes the sun. Sun, sun, sun. Here it comes. Sun, sun, sun. Here it comes. Sun, sun, sun. Here it comes. --------------E1F4EF7A45BCB6A9F5203B93 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a draft mtv video clip script
modified from ...song lyrics by the beatles.. so you can sing along

General Plenty

    (while guitar gently weeps)
i look at you all
see the love there that's sleeping
while my guitar gently weeps.

I do know why nobody told you
how to unfold your love.
I do know how someone controlled you
.... bought and soooolld you.

I look at the world and I notice it's turning.
At every mis-take we must surely be learning.
Still my guitar gently weeps.

I do know how you were diverted
how you were perverted too.
I do know why nobody told you,
why no one alerted you....
and my guitar gently weeeeeeps.

    (once there was a way to get back home)
Yes there is a way to get back home.
Yes there is a way to get back home.
Sleep pretty darling do not cry
and i will sing a lullaby...
Golden sunlight fills your eyes.
True wealth awaits you when you rise.
Oh, you've carried that weight a long time.

     (octopus's garden)
We can end the scarcity
and do it it intelligently.
No more hungry eyes
covered with flies.
No more corporate lies
to siphon what can now be free.
No more personal ties
to either live the lie, or die.

No more gunboat policy
of you instead of me,
the saga of oil's history.
We know how - now - you see
to build a solar hydrogen economy.

In ten years time we're free.
This dream can truly be.
With less work than Apollo
we can make it grow.
Silicon occurs abundantly,
makes sunlight into electricity,
which zaps water easily
into its elemental constituency:
hydrogen stored and transported safely.
No environmental penalty.
Plenty enough for you and me.

Gas pipeline infrastructure here today.
Machines to power home and car on display.
Unused Arizona desert enough for USA.
Global sunlit area enough for Gaia, eh?
Plenty enough for you and me.

Already cheaper than gas you see,
if you count cost of military
to keep the sea lanes 'for me'.
Start in a southwestern city.
Power vehicle fleets with subsidy.
In 10 years the world is free.
Plenty enough for you and me.

Oh what joy for every girl and boy,
knowing they're happy and they're safe.
I want my friends
to come and be
in this abundance with me.

      (here comes the sun)
Little darling, it's been along cold lonely history
Little darling, it's never yet been clear, but...
Here comes the sun.
Here comes the sun.
And I say it's all right
For thousands of years,
the courage and curiosity
of Galileos, Leonard's, and Buckys
leading us inescapably homeward,
toward the freedom of general plenty.
All of us, drawn by longing,
learning to trust redemonstrable evidence only,
always and only.
Knowhow enough now.
Wisdom enough not yet here.
But we're at the door somehow,
and we've never before been here.
Little darling, I feel that ice is slowing melting.
Here comes the sun.
Sun, sun, sun.
Here it comes.
Sun, sun, sun.
Here it comes.
Sun, sun, sun.
Here it comes. --------------E1F4EF7A45BCB6A9F5203B93-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:55:11 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] Project Censored links to alt. media and to Media activ <> Brian Q. Hutchings 11-AUG-2000 15:55 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us >I did not notice any orgs that I knew to have mentioned our plight, >nor the nullification of the VRA o'65. last night, >though, I went to the People's Convention, and >was vying with the honcho, there, to get a representative >of Lyn on the dias, with the other candidates (and Nader's person >etc.). this guy, Casey, said that he *had* read >of the rsults of the Michigan Primary, because >he gets a special subscription (AboutVote?) -- but >he had heard nothing of the VRA! > only the guy from the Annenberg Schol (USC) decalred >any knowledge, downplaying its significance, >after I asked the question at an "emeriti" thing. > >so, please, look at the following press-release, excerpted. > >thus quoth: I believe the following can be accessed through www.ProjectCensored/org Alternative Media Annals of Improbable Research CounterPunch Newsletter In Pittsburgh In These Times Insight Magazine Issues in Science and Technology L.A. Weekly Left Curve Lingua Franca LM Online Loompanics Unlimited Memphis Flier Metro Pulse Online Metro Times Detroit Monday Magazine Mother Jones Mothering Magazine --Bushcult! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:57:22 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: platformation (DNC) <> Brian Q. Hutchings 11-AUG-2000 15:57 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us Democrats' Revolt Against Gore Breaks Into the Open by Debra Hanania Freeman As nearly 200 members of the Democratic Party Platform Committee gathered in Cleveland on July 28-29 to finalize the document that will be presented at the party's Los Angeles convention on Aug. 14-17, a dramatic and open revolt against the Gore-dictated platform, and against its explicit rejection of the traditional constituencies that comprise the base of the party, burst into the public arena. The revolt broke out despite the tyrannical efforts of Democratic National Committee (DNC) Chairman Joe Andrew, a Gore henchman best known for his drive to nullify the Voting Rights Act, and to have the Democratic Party declared a "private club,'' in order to lock out supporters of Lyndon LaRouche, who continue to threaten the unelectable Gore's "lock'' on the Democratic nomination. At same time as Andrew was telling delegates at a Cleveland City Club luncheon that the party platform would reflect Gore's vision of free trade, fiscal conservatism, and tougher sentencing laws, including the death penalty, a group of well-known Democrats, all of them delegates to the August convention, were sounding a very different note at a well-attended news conference at the Sheraton City Centre hotel, where committee members were staying. The group, which included Cleveland's Democratic Congressional Representatives Sherrod Brown, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, and Dennis Kucinich, as well as Rep. Carolyn Maloney (N.Y.), United Auto Workers (UAW) Region 2 Director Warren Davis, Cleveland City Council Majority Leader Nelson Cintron, and a delegation of powerful California Democrats, led by State Sen. Tom Hayden, announced that they had formed a "Progressive Democratic Caucus,'' which Davis said represented "the democratic wing of the Democratic Party.'' Arguing that the Gore-dictated platform abandons the values and traditions of the Democratic Party as the voice of working people, minorities, and the poor, spokesmen for the group announced that they would introduce four platform amendments: "Quality Health Care for All,'' "Fair Trade, Not Slave Trade,'' "Narrowing the Gap Between Rich and Poor,'' and a motion to delete support of the National Missile Defense (NMD) program from the platform. - A Disgusting Platform - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 18:43:00 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Corporate Management Guru Interview on the New Economy <> Brian Q. Hutchings 11-AUG-2000 18:42 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us aside: is Hagelin a member of the *Copenhagen* cu-- I mean, school? those who insist that they "R" apolitical, are about as convincing as a devout athiest (they tend to be fundamentalists in their attachment to dialectical materialism, with (like) Pat Robertson being their antithesis, or some thing) -- or as funny as a "Republican" who believes in (British Liberal) Free Trade or *laissez-faire* (feudal doctrine of the Physiocrats (France, 18th CCE) !-) that's a real knee-slapper, if not a side-splitter. I thought that some of you on the list'd be interested, in finding some of the sources for Bucky's "geometry of thinking;" politically, as far as I can tell, he seems to have taken somewhat from Toynbee (Vanderbilt U.), which is Woodrow Wilson's bag, as well. I mean, why else would someone model our "central bank" upon htat of the British Empire? as far as "divide et impera," the currently bizarre efforts of the Veep, to make a platfomr that is in all main respects the same as that as the so-called Republican one, as reflected in his choice of a past-president of the DLC (Dirty Dick Morris's political base, insofar as he has one on the "D" side) ... I don't know, how this applies, other than the destruction of the USA, beginning with the collapse of the Dem party. to take a phrase from Leo Szilard (Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists), How I stopped worrying about Imperialism, and Learned to love Betty Dos! SUBJECT: politics will simply fade away MESSAGE from =SpaceshipEarth@mail.com 10-AUG-20 12:19 Here's a note I found, I don't know where I got it from. Buckminster Fuller was a little ahead of his time, but I do believe that politics is increasingly irrelevant and is slowly fading away. Most likely, and enduring institution like politics will transform itself rather than just fade away. Buckminster Fuller's forecast in 1966 that, by 2000, "amid general plenty, politics will simply fade away." (our Texan author linked us to the Business Week article of the header .-) >--Chairman George! >http://www.tarpley.net/bush12.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:42:46 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: platformation (DNC) In-Reply-To: <200008112257.e7BMvM200435@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:57 PM 08/11/2000 -0700, you wrote: ><> Brian Q. Hutchings 11-AUG-2000 15:57 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > Democrats' Revolt Against > Gore Breaks Into the Open > by Debra Hanania Freeman Title and author is an insufficient citation. You need publication/publisher and date. Probably this is from one of your LLR-backed pubs (given the style of invective, I wouldn't be surprised). This frame should not be removed when citing. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 04:55:20 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Song Song on the Deranged MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Having heard Buckminster Fuller sing Dome Dome on the Range, I'll have to give you an A+ for effort, plus this link. Harry Nilsson Buckminster Fuller Songbook: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=404230938 This is an interesting artifact, but it's apparently not Buckminster Fuller inspired songs. Too bad! Mike Nuess wrote: > > a draft mtv video clip script > modified from ...song lyrics by the beatles.. so you can sing > along > > General Plenty > > (while guitar gently weeps) > i look at you all > see the love there that's sleeping > while my guitar gently weeps. > > I do know why nobody told you > how to unfold your love. > I do know how someone controlled you > .... bought and soooolld you. > > I look at the world and I notice it's turning. > At every mis-take we must surely be learning. > Still my guitar gently weeps. > > I do know how you were diverted > how you were perverted too. > I do know why nobody told you, > why no one alerted you.... > and my guitar gently weeeeeeps. > > (once there was a way to get back home) > Yes there is a way to get back home. > Yes there is a way to get back home. > Sleep pretty darling do not cry > and i will sing a lullaby... > Golden sunlight fills your eyes. > True wealth awaits you when you rise. > Oh, you've carried that weight a long time. > > (octopus's garden) > We can end the scarcity > and do it it intelligently. > No more hungry eyes > covered with flies. > No more corporate lies > to siphon what can now be free. > No more personal ties > to either live the lie, or die. > > No more gunboat policy > of you instead of me, > the saga of oil's history. > We know how - now - you see > to build a solar hydrogen economy. > > In ten years time we're free. > This dream can truly be. > With less work than Apollo > we can make it grow. > Silicon occurs abundantly, > makes sunlight into electricity, > which zaps water easily > into its elemental constituency: > hydrogen stored and transported safely. > No environmental penalty. > Plenty enough for you and me. > > Gas pipeline infrastructure here today. > Machines to power home and car on display. > Unused Arizona desert enough for USA. > Global sunlit area enough for Gaia, eh? > Plenty enough for you and me. > > Already cheaper than gas you see, > if you count cost of military > to keep the sea lanes 'for me'. > Start in a southwestern city. > Power vehicle fleets with subsidy. > In 10 years the world is free. > Plenty enough for you and me. > > Oh what joy for every girl and boy, > knowing they're happy and they're safe. > I want my friends > to come and be > in this abundance with me. > > (here comes the sun) > Little darling, it's been along cold lonely history > Little darling, it's never yet been clear, but... > Here comes the sun. > Here comes the sun. > And I say it's all right > For thousands of years, > the courage and curiosity > of Galileos, Leonard's, and Buckys > leading us inescapably homeward, > toward the freedom of general plenty. > All of us, drawn by longing, > learning to trust redemonstrable evidence only, > always and only. > Knowhow enough now. > Wisdom enough not yet here. > But we're at the door somehow, > and we've never before been here. > Little darling, I feel that ice is slowing melting. > Here comes the sun. > Sun, sun, sun. > Here it comes. > Sun, sun, sun. > Here it comes. > Sun, sun, sun. > Here it comes. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 05:54:27 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Corporate Management Guru Interview on the New Economy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Hutchings wrote: > > (our Texan author linked us to the Business Week article > of the header .-) Apolitical Texan! .-) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 09:02:44 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DL XX Subject: Re: platformation (DNC) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WHAT does the DNC/Democratic Party have to do with Geodesics??????? I joined this list to learn & talk about Geodesics - NOT the DMC - there are LOTS of lists to talk about politics. THIS ISN'T ONE OF THEM!!!!!!! ------Original Message------ From: Brian Hutchings To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: August 11, 2000 10:57:22 PM GMT Subject: platformation (DNC) <> Brian Q. Hutchings 11-AUG-2000 15:57 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us Democrats' Revolt Against Gore Breaks Into the Open by Debra Hanania Freeman As nearly 200 members of the Democratic Party Platform Committee gathered in Cleveland on July 28-29 to finalize the document that will be presented at the party's Los Angeles convention on Aug. 14-17, a dramatic and open revolt against the Gore-dictated platform, and against its explicit rejection of the traditional constituencies that comprise the base of the party, burst into the public arena. The revolt broke out despite the tyrannical efforts of Democratic National Committee (DNC) Chairman Joe Andrew, a Gore henchman best known for his drive to nullify the Voting Rights Act, and to have the Democratic Party declared a "private club,'' in order to lock out supporters of Lyndon LaRouche, who continue to threaten the unelectable Gore's "lock'' on the Democratic nomination. At same time as Andrew was telling delegates at a Cleveland City Club luncheon that the party platform would reflect Gore's vision of free trade, fiscal conservatism, and tougher sentencing laws, including the death penalty, a group of well-known Democrats, all of them delegates to the August convention, were sounding a very different note at a well-attended news conference at the Sheraton City Centre hotel, where committee members were staying. The group, which included Cleveland's Democratic Congressional Representatives Sherrod Brown, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, and Dennis Kucinich, as well as Rep. Carolyn Maloney (N.Y.), United Auto Workers (UAW) Region 2 Director Warren Davis, Cleveland City Council Majority Leader Nelson Cintron, and a delegation of powerful California Democrats, led by State Sen. Tom Hayden, announced that they had formed a "Progressive Democratic Caucus,'' which Davis said represented "the democratic wing of the Democratic Party.'' Arguing that the Gore-dictated platform abandons the values and traditions of the Democratic Party as the voice of working people, minorities, and the poor, spokesmen for the group announced that they would introduce four platform amendments: "Quality Health Care for All,'' "Fair Trade, Not Slave Trade,'' "Narrowing the Gap Between Rich and Poor,'' and a motion to delete support of the National Missile Defense (NMD) program from the platform. - A Disgusting Platform - ............................................................. voted #1 search engine! http://www.iwon.com why wouldn't you? ............................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 09:04:51 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DL XX Subject: Re: platformation (DNC) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I Joined this list to Learn more about Geodesics - NOT the DNC!!!! Let's STAY ON THE PURPOSE of this list!!!!!! ------Original Message------ From: Kirby Urner To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: August 12, 2000 5:42:46 AM GMT Subject: Re: platformation (DNC) At 03:57 PM 08/11/2000 -0700, you wrote: ><> Brian Q. Hutchings 11-AUG-2000 15:57 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > Democrats' Revolt Against > Gore Breaks Into the Open > by Debra Hanania Freeman Title and author is an insufficient citation. You need publication/publisher and date. Probably this is from one of your LLR-backed pubs (given the style of invective, I wouldn't be surprised). This frame should not be removed when citing. Kirby ............................................................. voted #1 search engine! http://www.iwon.com why wouldn't you? ............................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 08:05:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: platformation (DNC) In-Reply-To: <380670403.966085491692.JavaMail.root@web186-iw> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:04 AM 08/12/2000 -0400, you wrote: >I Joined this list to Learn more about Geodesics - NOT the DNC!!!! > >Let's STAY ON THE PURPOSE of this list!!!!!! > Sure, I agree. Brian abuses this list, has for years. After people complain, he mentions Bucky a few times, then lapses back into the irrelevant. However, on the other hand note that this list is about the full range of Bucky Fuller's contributions, and plans of action trending from those. Domes figure into this picture, certainly, but aren't the whole story by a long shot. So you may see a lot of posts that don't mention geodesic domes at all, but _are_ within the mandate of this list (even though it's named "geodesic"). Sometimes we get complaints about this, but mostly from people who never studied Bucky as a thinker, just know the dome scene -- it really doesn't need to be either/or. That's not meant to excuse Brian's abuses however. I don't know anyone who reads him much (I do randomly, mostly old stuff I come across when searching the GEODESIC archives by key word e.g. "Tibet" the other night). Brian should have written a book by now or done a website or somehow cohered his thinking in aan accessible place, vs. always reacting to the moment year after year, and serving primarily as a conduit for the thinking of others. That he hasn't done so by now (cohered his thinking), leaves him wide open to others writing him off as a crank and crackpot (or worse) -- a dime a dozen on the internet. Tarpley and LLR (two sources Brian reads) did much better for themselves, because they had more self- discipline. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 08:50:33 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Designing a look and feel Comments: To: synergeo@egroups.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: web art strategy: Fuller had a thing for artists, as borderline comprehensivists, in many cases "above the line" (high water mark) of overspecialism. In the case of design science, Fuller's haunting attraction is towards an alternative reality or parallel Universe. So much is familiar, yet different, as if another outcome, a whole possible alternate reality expressed in the subjunctive tense (means: might have been) -- right down to the mathematical substrate/skeleton/bones (that whole tetrahedron thing). However, given the by now retro look and feel of some elements in his Private Sky, given he was born in the 1800s and died last century, I think we need to challenge the "glittering utopia" (receding future) depiction with a more ironical "might have been" depiction (more parallel Universe motif). The design science "canvas" is a window into an alternative reality that we could be experiencing by now, already be at home within, but did not really access, because at various forks in the road, we chose turns that led away, not towards. When executed well, the canvas will draw us in as "more real" (because more coherent and intelligible) than what we have in our everyday environment. Because this (where we are now) is oblivion (not any kind of utopia, obviously). The "closing window of opportunity" should be emphasized. A "receding" (vs. "what's ahead") would be more in keeping with the "subjunctive tense" aesthetics. Design science in the 21st century needs to have a "missed the boat" aura, a nostalgia for a future we never managed to reach. This does not preclude working for a brighter tomorrow of course, but I think it's more effective, and more faithful to Fuller, to anchor the vision to a time (late 20th century) and broadcast it as a place we never inhabited (visited only in our imaginations). Even if we do move into a more Bucky-informed Universe, the aesthetics will be "this came late, after a lot of time wasted, a lot of death". The high price of wandering in the desert without a compass is something to eventually look back on (to not forget). It's easy to remember right now (i.e. welcome to oblivion). Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:23:19 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lee Bonnifield Subject: Re: Dome design MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Hutchings asked > again, I ask: Where is the other focus (when > one focus is at the active center of Earth (or > the local-for-you barycenter, wherever that is) > of the ellipse of your running orbits? One focus is at the center of gravity for the Earth+runner system. Earth is also orbiting that point. That focus point is a little closer to the runner than the center of gravity of the Earth is. I don't know what you can do with the answer you ask for, but if an answer within a millimeter is close enough, you could ignore that difference. The other focus point (X) is symmetrically placed in relation to your apogee (A) as the center of gravity of the earth+runner (C) is related to your perigee (P). (A)--(X)---------------------------------------------------------(C)--(P ) My guess, for a 3 foot horizontal running leap, is that (X) is about 2 feet below the runner's center of gravity at (A). Rationale: you know that the geodesic describing the runner's freefall (ignoring the contact force from air resistance) would be a highly eccentric elliptical orbit, if the ground didn't get in the way. The runner would be very close to (C) when passing it (roughly 3 feet), and even closer at perigee (P). (X) is the same distance from (A) as (C) is from (P). I don't read your political posts and wish they were not here. I am embarrassed to recommend this list to people interested in geodesics because I know much of what they will be exposed to instead is your politics. It is not that I disagree with your politics, it's just that this is the wrong place and I don't have the foggiest notion about what you are saying. I cannot be bothered to try to figure out your incomplete sentence structure, Shandyian parentheticals, jargon, and arcana. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 13:47:46 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Dome design <> Brian Q. Hutchings 12-AUG-2000 13:47 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us your location of the apogee is admirable! my guess is that, roughly, the near focus is the place at which you push your foot; see, Why? the extreme eccentricity of this ellipse, seemingly parabolic from close-in, gives a nice example of Kepler's funny constraints: your push-off sends you off with a constant, "horizontal" velocity, as gravity decelerates and accelerates you; if you were to drop-through Earth, the other focus would gradually change its direction, relative to you, til you hit perigee. as for a/politics, we are trying to get from here to there, preferably without a stalinist (Gore/DNC) or fascist (Bush/RNC) interval, or a new dark age (if not, better stock-up on those LCD flashlights and batteries !-) I do not believe in a "solar/hydrogen economy," although I once was a proponent: hydrogen is just a battery, and you can't grow hemp under collectors; also, I don't believe in Obnoxico's Fossilized (tm) Fuels! (have you seen the rash of "beyond petroleum" ads from BP, now that they're the #1 distributor of oil and gasoline in the USA, and have already engineered a drastic increase in the price -- without helping to add another source, like nuclear power ?-) "the grid" is already deploying very well, with no concern for possible short-circuit effects, concerning Earth's system of propulsion (Bussard ramjet .-) thus quoth: incomplete sentence structure, Shandyian parentheticals, jargon, and so, you say, and I don't know *that* term. Kirby likewise engages in ad-hominems, seldom giving any example of my supposed dysability. probably, nothing that could not be fixed by the 2-volume Funk & Wagnalls! --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 14:18:28 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Dome design In-Reply-To: <200008122047.e7CKlkW03289@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > thus quoth: > incomplete sentence structure, Shandyian parentheticals, > jargon, and > > > so, you say, and I don't know *that* term. > Kirby likewise engages in ad-hominems, And so do you, although mostly your invective is directed at personages not present to defend themselves. Plus I've been specific about my critiques of your style, given examples (besides, every "quoth" is replete with cutsey quirkiness, private asides to yourself, reminders of passages only you have read (so witty in the mirror, but true wit requires an audience beyond one lobe entertaining the other)). It makes no difference though, you're committed. So? You pay the price in irrelevance and go the way of all noise, into the background caca-phony. > "the grid" is already deploying very well, > with no concern for possible short-circuit effects, > concerning Earth's system of propulsion > (Bussard ramjet .-) Such blather. And another aside to no one in the audience. Agreed re embarrassment to this list. If we add up all the words contributed to GEODESIC since 1992, probably Hutchings is the record holder. Ironic, if you ask me. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:28:05 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Crank calls to GEODESIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you ever dealt with a crank caller? Anybody that's ever dealt with crank callers with tell you that the only way to get rid of them is by repeated dead hang-ups. If they can't get their jollies off they eventually wither on the vine. Some are more persistent than other, but they all soon die off. As long as you respond to them in any way, they'll keep calling back. Every time you say, who is this, why are you calling, please stop, you're just encouraging them to call back for more fun. Keep giving them a dead hang-up and they'll eventually go looking for someone else to play with. Any list on the internet that isn't monitored is going to be ruined by cranks. That's the open nature of the internet, for good and bad. Unfortunately, monitoring a list is a lot of work, but would be well worth it. An unmoderated newsgroup becomes a pile of spam. In about the last two years this list has gone from about 200 direct subscribers to 144 today. You can find out how many subscribe by going down to Geodesic on this page: http://LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU/archives/ Back when there was a lot of arguing and negativity on this list, I figured people would be leaving, so I checked, and watched the numbers drop by about five in one day or so. I'm still pretty much an internet newbie, but even I know that posting off-topic messages is improper newsgroup etiquette. Apparently, the typical response for such abuse used to be to flame the abuser, but the internet isn't the wide-open frontier it use to be, so that may be out of date, and it's counter to the suggestion above. It's unfortunate that subscribers have fallen so low, and postings have become few. And even I don't seem to read many of the messages anymore. I've heard quotes of thousands of subscribers through the newsgroup servers, but I have doubts about that because few messages are posted that aren't from regulars. And I tried subscribing through my ISPs newsgroup server and virtually no messages came through. I believe Kirby said he had the same experience. I think a lot of people have been disillusioned and run off from a group that could, should be important, but the postings of a few have left them uninspired. We need to build these numbers back up with relevant on topic postings. Is there an FAQ for this list with the rules for posting? If there is, it should be posted to the group periodically, and may be due for updating with new rules. Short of being flamed, anybody abusing the group with improper behavior and off topic post can have the "official rules" pointed out to them. The group could take votes to establish any new rules. Votes could also be taken to remove abusers from the list. That's being democratic, not bureaucratic. It isn't censorship either, because there are tens of thousands of mailing list, and if there isn't one that will accept your messages, you can start your own list. Isn't the internet is great! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 16:22:01 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Crank calls to GEODESIC In-Reply-To: <39958923.92B453C5@mail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I wouldn't be for voting (to remove people from this list), nor am I particularly interested in brute numbers (of subscribers). Sometimes higher numbers is inversely proportional to the quality of discussion. It's the politically minded who think it's all about coalitions and mobilizing the masses, or putting a happy face on everything. Sometimes "negative" is where it's at. I basically take the hand I've been dealt, in terms of who chooses to post or not post. If people have something more interesting to share than so-and-so, there's nothing stopping 'em from doing so. You/me/anyone can post to GEODESIC any time, easily, and then link to from your web page, keeping the "gems" easily retrievable (if you think of them that way) untouched by what's in the vicinity in the linear stream -- a quasi-irrelevant abstraction in retrospect. In sum, it doesn't matter if it's 98.99% spam, you can still go on the record with what's valuable, if you have something valuable to say. No sense blaming anyone but yourself if you choose to withhold and wait for the waters to be uncloudy and gorgeous before you jump in. The world isn't especially set up to reward those who feel they're too good for it. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 19:01:01 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: BBC News SCI-TECH Dawn of a thirsty century MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0048F.A7E4D480" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0048F.A7E4D480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Global water shortages article (BBC): http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_755000/755497.stm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0048F.A7E4D480 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="BBC News SCI-TECH Dawn of a thirsty century.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="BBC News SCI-TECH Dawn of a thirsty century.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_755000/755497.stm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_755000/755497.stm Modified=60F14730CA04C00157 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0048F.A7E4D480-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 06:03:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dayton Labs Subject: Re: Crank calls to GEODESIC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very very well said young man - you have a clarity of thought that is rare in this day and age. Dave in Ohio Kirby Urner wrote: > I wouldn't be for voting (to remove people from this > list), nor am I particularly interested in brute numbers > (of subscribers). Sometimes higher numbers is inversely > proportional to the quality of discussion. It's the > politically minded who think it's all about coalitions > and mobilizing the masses, or putting a happy face on > everything. Sometimes "negative" is where it's at. > > I basically take the hand I've been dealt, in terms of > who chooses to post or not post. If people have something > more interesting to share than so-and-so, there's nothing > stopping 'em from doing so. You/me/anyone can post to > GEODESIC any time, easily, and then link to from your web > page, keeping the "gems" easily retrievable (if you think > of them that way) untouched by what's in the vicinity > in the linear stream -- a quasi-irrelevant abstraction in > retrospect. > > In sum, it doesn't matter if it's 98.99% spam, you can still > go on the record with what's valuable, if you have something > valuable to say. No sense blaming anyone but yourself if > you choose to withhold and wait for the waters to be uncloudy > and gorgeous before you jump in. The world isn't especially > set up to reward those who feel they're too good for it. > > Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 09:20:57 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Cosmic Costing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00507.C9CF7460" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00507.C9CF7460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Cosmic Costing" by R Buckminster Fuller: http://www.cinetopia.net/cosmiccosting.html Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00507.C9CF7460 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Cosmic Costing.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Cosmic Costing.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.cinetopia.net/cosmiccosting.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.cinetopia.net/cosmiccosting.html Modified=E01B874B4205C001D5 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00507.C9CF7460-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 15:20:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Crank calls to GEODESIC <> Brian Q. Hutchings 13-AUG-2000 15:20 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us or, Crank cybermarketing calls to GEODESIC, or, SEE SPACE RUN! some folks insist that Shakespeare should be deconstructed into hyperlinked chunks of 3rd-grade American English, then transposed into esperanto. I may not hold a candle to Willy, but I at most may be the proverbial candle, burning at both ends in his honor: he's no British author, children!... (I agree, though, that a good, annotated version should be so made, and surely has, as I recall, from my brief flirtation with the "Shakespeare Roundtable," founded on teh absurd premise that "Willy" was a pseudonym for some person of royal heritage -- oops; the Willy *Auhtorhship* Roundtable" !! as Kirby saith, Universe ain't rightly built as a pavlovian panopticon, to reward those who feel that they were unjustly jailed --and I tell you, I didn't do it!-- although y'never know! the fact that 144/200-or-so are still left, after 2 years of ceaseless striving on our parts, hardly seems like a moral dysaster -- of those who directly subscribe to the list (as mostly bona-fide lurkers .-) it is certainly true, the primary bone of contention is the abject assertion that Bucky's professed statement of apoliticisim is justified in all respects, even though there are clear tracks to his (assumed-as-yet) primary political-historical "science" tract, which title I forget, by Arnold Toynbee, the British agent at Vanderbilt U. (founded by a "robber-baron"), which is probably wholly within the mainstream of British "empirical" atthropology ("Masonry"). if everyone in Local Universe is to be "tracked" via some souped-up Galton-Binet ("Stanford 9" -- number nine; number nine; number nine -- NUMBER NINE) "IQ test," as per Bucky's automation of education, as is well under-way through the 50-state commission that was chaired by Guv Roy Romer; then, only those whose parents can afford tutoring, or a private education [*], will be privy to a "Classical education" (see the Acrobat files of campaign-literature for the appropriate pamphlet -- http://www.larouchecampaign.org .-) on the other hand, if you dysagree, just make a point of it; don't kiss/kick/kill the effin'messenger! Yr Humble Servant, c'est moi, B "Q" H --Bombastic Bushkin! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm -- * practically speaking, private education tends to follow the same trends --or leads them-- as public; therefore, vouchers are no probabl panacea for this political problem, taking the root-meaning of the word etc. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 15:33:04 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] From Scout Report: corporations/ elections <> Brian Q. Hutchings 13-AUG-2000 15:33 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us The Corporate Library does sound like a good source, at the least, for evocations of "shareholder value; is its provenance also the UoMichigan? as for "the best online source" of Election 2000 analyis, I must ask, does it include the actual results of the Michigan Democratic Primary in March, which was part of an "open" primary? also, what does it say about the Voting Rights Act of 1965, vis-a-vu the Supreme Court's radical decision, also in March? unfortunately, I am not perfectly sanguine about this, since I imagine that it is assocaited with the Humphrey Center, which is virtually a wholly-owned subsidiary of Cargill, or ADM, or some-such. as an example of their activism, last year, they awarded their annual award to Yoweri "the mustard seed" Museveni, who was the actual "marhcerlord" behind the revolutionary invasion of Mobutusan's Zaire -- one of "Africa's New Leaders," as promoted by the British press. --Undead President! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:51:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: that the Son (George) may learn from the Sir (George, workin'on a <> Brian Q. Hutchings 13-AUG-2000 16:51 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us CHAIN-GANG .-) I was told by Art Kunkin that my experience of "stalinists" at the LA County Dem.Cmte. and the SM Dem Club -- or what we'd call users of fascist tactics, were they "R" players -- was of no relevance to the Convention, but I feel that this may larlgely be a personal problem with him, not just a matter of getting off of the PC bandwagon of (what I refer to as) necro- marxism (or marksism, so Americanized), as a former Trotskyist from the SDS days. of course, that argument cuts the circular problem of process and objective, to exclude from the debate even a candidate with matching-funds, as Nader first called-for, in favor of "over 5% in 5 polls" -- of what arbitrary provenance, aside from that statistician's "level of confidence" ?? for, although my local experience is rather humorous, and I can take such tactics, used only against one (me) as a sort of badge of honor, we should primarily be concerned with the actions of the DNC, now staying at the Miramar Hotel under cover of union labor (HERE). (let me just note, since hte previous elections of'98, locally, I have been kept on a short electronic leash by the City Councillors, who were vaunted pioneers in e-democracy hype, through the Public Electronic Network of Santa Monica; it turned-out to be rather jacobin, I guess !-) to cut this quite short, one would think that the current status of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, an integral addition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, would be a newsworthy thing. however, I have met only one local political leader, an academic from USC/Annenberg, who admitted that he knew of it, although he downplayed my assertion that the Act had been nullified; he did agree that the Supreme Court had done *some* thing. I am certainly aware that the consensual word has gone-out, at least serially, though, that this is somehow to be condoned, because of the presidential candidate at whom it was aimed. but, do you really know, who this guy really is? is it really *verboten*, for a reporter to ask an official of the DNC, or Arianna Huffington, or someone from the Open Society or Lindesmith Center, what their opinions are on this matter of voting rights? when will Amy Goodman of "Democracy, Now!" put this into the playbook? finally, I was going to title this posting, Capitalism "versus" Democracy, because both words are taken out of their historical context, as literal tokens, and turned into their near-opposites by a mis-applied dialectic ("material" or Hegelian; as Hegel was the State historian of the Prussian Empire, one can ask, what is the difference between Freudian analysis, material dialectic, and Socratic dialog, in order to question a particular sort of "the end of history" rhetoric). [don't kiss/kick/kill the effin'messenger, Baby !-] --Undead President! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:38:33 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: ScienceDaily Magazine -- Plant Oils Will Replace Petroleum In Coming Years MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00566.72637E60" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00566.72637E60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Science Daily article re replacing oil: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/07/000703090917.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00566.72637E60 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="ScienceDaily Magazine -- Plant Oils Will Replace Petroleum In Coming Years.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ScienceDaily Magazine -- Plant Oils Will Replace Petroleum In Coming Years.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/07/000703090917.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/07/000703090917.htm Modified=E02740D2A005C0017F ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00566.72637E60-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:51:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: ScienceDaily News: Plant Oils to Replace Petroleum in <> Brian Q. Hutchings 14-AUG-2000 10:51 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us wow; now, "rock-oils" are passe, and "fossilization" ist verboten; we are in the year Zero BP, Beyond Petroleum, served to us with the military precision of a nasty butler -- British Petroleum, USA's "#1 producer" (or, at least, distributor) of "petrol" !?! --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:35:22 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: ScienceDaily News: Plant Oils to Replace Petroleum in MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Why not skip directly to solar? Anyone know off hand the cost per kw for energy produced photovoltaicly? Dick --- Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. Hutchings > 14-AUG-2000 10:51 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > wow; now, "rock-oils" are passe, and > "fossilization" ist verboten; > we are in the year Zero BP, Beyond Petroleum, > served to us with the military precision of a nasty > butler -- > British Petroleum, USA's "#1 producer" (or, at > least, > distributor) of "petrol" !?! > > --The Duke of Oil! > http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm ===== Dick Fischbeck Hubdome, Patent-pending pending. UTOPIA, aka 'the future'. /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\ There are no bad kids!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:39:40 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: shells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear All, No one responded to my question about whether shells like eggshells and monolithicly-constructed domes are geodesic or not. Why yes, why no. As the plydome demonstrates, visible struts are not required. Dick ===== Dick Fischbeck Hubdome, Patent-pending pending. UTOPIA, aka 'the future'. /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\ There are no bad kids!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:54:35 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: shells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" IMHO: I think they should not be classified as Geodesic. Here is my reasoning. In a geodesic dome/structure the structural elements are arranged in a geodesic pattern, i.e. a triangulated pattern based on one of the three most stable solids (Icosahedron, Octahedron or Tetrahedron) using great Circle arcs or chords. Domes in general have unique properties/advantages but for them to be geodesic, I think they need to meet the requirements set forth in Fullers patents. (.....Then again even fuller said the lines of force in a geodesic dome may or may not be visible). -Tony. -----Original Message----- From: Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 1:40 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: shells Dear All, No one responded to my question about whether shells like eggshells and monolithicly-constructed domes are geodesic or not. Why yes, why no. As the plydome demonstrates, visible struts are not required. Dick ===== Dick Fischbeck Hubdome, Patent-pending pending. UTOPIA, aka 'the future'. /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\ There are no bad kids!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:28:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: Re: General Plenty via photovoltaics In-Reply-To: <3993E58E.D670A1DD@micron.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nice lyrics, Mike, but who is Leonard? > For thousands of years, > the courage and curiosity > of Galileos, Leonard's, and Buckys > leading us inescapably homeward, > toward the freedom of general plenty. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:17:12 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: Designing a look and feel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D46442D0DB784E97E5A16EFF" --------------D46442D0DB784E97E5A16EFF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby, what you say here makes a lot of sense. I especially like the "canvass" of design science that draws us "more real" through views framed around 'opportunity missed'. Such views remind us of our limited capabilities, they encourage humility. Also, "what could have been" effectively informs, enabling us to better consider "what can be". We really did miss the 1st boat, and failed to recognize and spontaneously 'snap to' the opportunity at its dawn. That opportunity is forever gone. We just weren't capable enough. I wonder a lot about the window and whether or not it has yet closed. But so few have yet seen the potential -- 'seen' as in tangible, visceral, truly doable. Even now, nearly half a century later, our collective choices so far remain largely uninformed, and we (in aggregate) remain ignorantly unaware of the grand option of physical abundance and its implications, much less any mechanics of implementation. So it seems probable that, if nature is interested in humanity's success in universe, she will need a large enough window, one that grants time enough for limited-in-capability humans to learn of the choice before them and respond. The vision of a rapid 'snap to' didn't happen, but the vision of a now achievable abundance for our external metabolics remains .... Glittering utopia's have been around so long, they bounce off most radar screens, as they should. Unfortunately, realistic scenarios (ergo Bucky's) are still too often shrugged off without real consideration. Nature's feedback will continue to slap us around ... until we either 'get it' or perish. At this point it remains a long painful extrusion, with no indication of any Appollo-like galvanization-into-action. But who knows....? The goal continues to be one of getting enough of us beyond ignorance. Finding effective canvasses. Wish I was better at that. Yes, easy to remember now, the high price of wandering in the desert... it's so in our face. It would be nice if we were around someday, to look back at that wandering and remind ourselves never to forget it, that implementation of abundance "came late after a lot of time wasted", but I guess that depends on when the window really closes, and if we ever get out of the desert. Mike Kirby wrote: Re: web art strategy: Fuller had a thing for artists, as borderline comprehensivists, in many cases "above the line" (high water mark) of overspecialism. In the case of design science, Fuller's haunting attraction is towards an alternative reality or parallel Universe. So much is familiar, yet different, as if another outcome, a whole possible alternate reality expressed in the subjunctive tense (means: might have been) -- right down to the mathematical substrate/skeleton/bones (that whole tetrahedron thing). However, given the by now retro look and feel of some elements in his Private Sky, given he was born in the 1800s and died last century, I think we need to challenge the "glittering utopia" (receding future) depiction with a more ironical "might have been" depiction (more parallel Universe motif). The design science "canvas" is a window into an alternative reality that we could be experiencing by now, already be at home within, but did not really access, because at various forks in the road, we chose turns that led away, not towards. When executed well, the canvas will draw us in as "more real" (because more coherent and intelligible) than what we have in our everyday environment. Because this (where we are now) is oblivion (not any kind of utopia, obviously). The "closing window of opportunity" should be emphasized. A "receding" (vs. "what's ahead") would be more in keeping with the "subjunctive tense" aesthetics. Design science in the 21st century needs to have a "missed the boat" aura, a nostalgia for a future we never managed to reach. This does not preclude working for a brighter tomorrow of course, but I think it's more effective, and more faithful to Fuller, to anchor the vision to a time (late 20th century) and broadcast it as a place we never inhabited (visited only in our imaginations). Even if we do move into a more Bucky-informed Universe, the aesthetics will be "this came late, after a lot of time wasted, a lot of death". The high price of wandering in the desert without a compass is something to eventually look back on (to not forget). It's easy to remember right now (i.e. welcome to oblivion). --------------D46442D0DB784E97E5A16EFF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kirby,  what you say here makes a lot of sense. I especially like the "canvass" of design science that draws us "more real" through views framed around 'opportunity missed'.  Such views remind us of our limited  capabilities, they encourage humility.  Also, "what could have been" effectively informs, enabling us to better consider "what can be".

We really did miss the 1st boat, and failed to recognize and spontaneously 'snap to' the opportunity at its dawn.  That opportunity is forever gone.  We just weren't capable enough.  I wonder a lot about the window and whether or not it has yet closed.

But so few have yet seen the potential -- 'seen' as in tangible, visceral, truly doable. Even now, nearly half a century later, our collective choices so far remain largely uninformed, and we (in aggregate) remain ignorantly unaware of the grand option of physical abundance and its implications, much less any mechanics of implementation.

So it seems probable that, if nature is interested in humanity's success in universe, she will need a large enough window, one that grants time enough for limited-in-capability  humans to learn of the choice before them and respond. The vision of a rapid 'snap to' didn't happen, but the vision of a now achievable abundance for our external metabolics remains ....

Glittering utopia's have been around so long, they bounce off most radar screens, as they should. Unfortunately, realistic scenarios  (ergo Bucky's) are still too often shrugged off without real consideration.  Nature's feedback will continue to slap us around ... until we either 'get it' or perish. At this point it remains a long painful extrusion, with no indication of any Appollo-like galvanization-into-action. But who knows....?

The goal continues to be one of getting enough of us beyond ignorance.
Finding effective canvasses. Wish I was better at that.

Yes, easy to remember now, the high price of wandering in the desert... it's so in our face.  It would be nice if we were around someday, to look back at that wandering and remind ourselves never to forget it, that implementation of abundance "came late after a lot of time wasted", but I guess that depends on when the window really closes, and if we ever get out of the desert.

Mike
 

Kirby wrote:

Re: web art strategy:

Fuller had a thing for artists, as borderline comprehensivists,
in many cases "above the line" (high water mark) of
overspecialism.

In the case of design science, Fuller's haunting attraction is
towards an alternative reality or parallel Universe.  So much
is familiar, yet different, as if another outcome, a whole
possible alternate reality expressed in the subjunctive tense
(means: might have been) -- right down to the mathematical
substrate/skeleton/bones (that whole tetrahedron thing).

However, given the by now retro look and feel of some elements
in his Private Sky, given he was born in the 1800s and died
last century, I think we need to challenge the "glittering
utopia" (receding future) depiction with a more ironical "might
have been" depiction (more parallel Universe motif).

The design science "canvas" is a window into an alternative
reality that we could be experiencing by now, already be at
home within, but did not really access, because at various
forks in the road, we chose turns that led away, not towards.

When executed well, the canvas will draw us in as "more real"
(because more coherent and intelligible) than what we have in
our everyday environment.  Because this (where we are now) is
oblivion (not any kind of utopia, obviously).  The "closing
window of opportunity" should be emphasized.  A "receding" (vs.
"what's ahead") would be more in keeping with the "subjunctive
tense" aesthetics.

Design science in the 21st century needs to have a "missed the
boat" aura, a nostalgia for a future we never managed to reach.
This does not preclude working for a brighter tomorrow of
course, but I think it's more effective, and more faithful to
Fuller, to anchor the vision to a time (late 20th century) and
broadcast it as a place we never inhabited (visited only in our
imaginations).

Even if we do move into a more Bucky-informed Universe, the
aesthetics will be "this came late, after a lot of time wasted,
a lot of death".  The high price of wandering in the desert
without a compass is something to eventually look back on (to
not forget). It's easy to remember right now (i.e. welcome to
oblivion). --------------D46442D0DB784E97E5A16EFF-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:18:12 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: ScienceDaily News: Plant Oils to Replace Petroleum in MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------416619D315399A2BEFE63EEB" --------------416619D315399A2BEFE63EEB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit doesn't seem we need carbon based oils for combustion and thermal process as we have abundant solar hydrogen and direct PV electricity, but we do need them for industrial feedstocks and lubricants. you might look here... http://www.energy.wsu.edu/org/waseia/pvcurv.HTM and here: "But by the time the contract expires in 2002, green pricing should be obsolete in Sacramento. SMUD expects the new [pv] panels to produce electricity for just 8 to 10 cents per kilowatt-hour -- about what its residential customers pay today." http://whyfiles.news.wisc.edu/041solar/main2.html Dick Fischbeck wrote: > Why not skip directly to solar? Anyone know off hand > the cost per kw for energy produced photovoltaicly? > > Dick > > --- Brian Hutchings > wrote: > > <> Brian Q. Hutchings > > 14-AUG-2000 10:51 > > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > > > wow; now, "rock-oils" are passe, and > > "fossilization" ist verboten; > > we are in the year Zero BP, Beyond Petroleum, > > served to us with the military precision of a nasty > > butler -- > > British Petroleum, USA's "#1 producer" (or, at > > least, > > distributor) of "petrol" !?! > > > > --The Duke of Oil! > > http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm > > ===== > Dick Fischbeck > Hubdome, Patent-pending pending. > UTOPIA, aka 'the future'. > /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\ > There are no bad kids!! > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< > You can do your own thinking. --------------416619D315399A2BEFE63EEB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit doesn't seem we need carbon based oils for combustion and thermal process as we have abundant solar hydrogen and direct PV electricity, but we do need them for industrial feedstocks and lubricants.

you might look here...

http://www.energy.wsu.edu/org/waseia/pvcurv.HTM
and here:  "But by the time the contract expires in 2002, green pricing
                      should be obsolete in Sacramento. SMUD expects the new [pv]
                      panels to produce electricity for just 8 to 10 cents per
                      kilowatt-hour -- about what its residential customers pay
                      today."
http://whyfiles.news.wisc.edu/041solar/main2.html

 

Dick Fischbeck wrote:

Why not skip directly to solar?  Anyone know off hand
the cost per kw for energy produced photovoltaicly?

Dick

--- Brian Hutchings
<r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian Q. Hutchings
>  14-AUG-2000 10:51
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  wow; now, "rock-oils" are passe, and
> "fossilization" ist verboten;
>  we are in the year Zero BP, Beyond Petroleum,
>  served to us with the military precision of a nasty
> butler --
>  British Petroleum, USA's "#1 producer" (or, at
> least,
>  distributor) of "petrol" !?!
>
>  --The Duke of Oil!
http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm

=====
Dick Fischbeck
Hubdome, Patent-pending pending.
 UTOPIA, aka 'the future'.
/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\
There are no bad kids!!
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
You can do your own thinking.

--------------416619D315399A2BEFE63EEB-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:25:03 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: General Plenty via photovoltaics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops, thanks for catching that. Should be Leonardo, as in da Vinci. Dexter Graphic wrote: > Nice lyrics, Mike, but who is Leonard? > > > For thousands of years, > > the courage and curiosity > > of Galileos, Leonard's, and Buckys > > leading us inescapably homeward, > > toward the freedom of general plenty. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:29:21 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: ScienceDaily News: Plant Oils to Replace Petroleum in <> Brian Q. Hutchings 14-AUG-2000 20:29 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us there are 2 problems with this page: a) just a quibble, but a seeming "cross-over" point at "5000 roofs," which is only made by arbitrarily scaling the "roofs" scale -- which goes unscaled (say, on the left); b) the price of "Fossilized Fuels" (trademark, Obnoxico) is somewhat out of date, for "Zero BP" !?! thus quoth: At $2.50 per watt, PV generated electricity becomes cost competitive with most conventional resources, allowing PV to begin displacing bulk power generation by fossil fuels. --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:47:34 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Home Power magazine Solar Radiation Map MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00639.414AD660" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00639.414AD660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Solar energy map of the US (Home Power mag): http://www.homepower.com/solmap.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00639.414AD660 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Home Power magazine Solar Radiation Map.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Home Power magazine Solar Radiation Map.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.homepower.com/solmap.htm [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.homepower.com/solmap.htm Modified=203AABB47306C001F3 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00639.414AD660-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:52:15 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Home Power's link to Wind Data. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C00639.E8C808E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C00639.E8C808E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wind power map of the USA (Home Power mag): http://www.homepower.com/windmap.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C00639.E8C808E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Home Power's link to Wind Data..url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Home Power's link to Wind Data..url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.homepower.com/windmap.htm [DOC#5#7] BASEURL=http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/maps/chap2/2-01m.html ORIGURL=http://rredc.nrel.gov/wind/pubs/atlas/maps.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.homepower.com/windmap.htm Modified=C01540677406C001B7 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C00639.E8C808E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:32:15 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: Info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01C00650.42A788C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C00650.42A788C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Solar energy map of the US (Home Power mag): http://www.homepower.com/solmap.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Thanks Joe, I was wandering if I could find such a map for the energy = import web site I'm working on.=20 And thanks spaceship for the article.=20 Spaceship wrote: I like these simple figures for solar panels. Let's get them installed on top of all our buildings and quit letting all that sunlight go to waste. Mark may be able to use this. http://www.popsci.com/hometech/news/000811.h.html Progress on my page may take a little longer since I've just started a = two year jury service. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C00650.42A788C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Solar energy map of the US (Home Power=20 mag):

 http://www.homepower.com/sol= map.htm

Joe=20 S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminste= r Fuller=20 Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore= /

------------------------------------------------------------= --------------
 
Thanks Joe, I was wandering if I could = find such a=20 map for the energy import web site I'm working on.
And thanks spaceship for the article. =
 
Spaceship wrote:
 
I like these simple figures for solar = panels. Let's=20 get them
installed on top of all our buildings and quit letting all=20 that
sunlight go to waste. Mark may be able to use this.

http://www.pop= sci.com/hometech/news/000811.h.html
 
Progress on my page may take a little = longer since=20 I've just started a two year jury service.
 
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C00650.42A788C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 00:54:57 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: More info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003F_01C00653.6E76B720" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C00653.6E76B720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wind power map of the USA (Home Power mag): http://www.homepower.com/windmap.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Another excellent source of info, Thanks Joe. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------- Geodesics can be built in any shape with cubes being probably quite = difficult. The Ford Tri motor was literally three motors creating enough = speed to fly a piece of bridge tressal. The Tri Motor had criss crossing = (Internal (compression) struts. One had to crawl around them to travel = fore to aft in the plane. Douglas, of McDonald Douglas fame introduced = the skin or shell concept of fusalage design. The End P.S. This November vote early and often for Alfred E. Newman. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C00653.6E76B720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wind power map of the USA (Home Power=20 mag):

 http://www.homepower.com/wi= ndmap.htm

Joe=20 S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminste= r Fuller=20 Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore= /

------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------
 
Another excellent source of info, = Thanks=20 Joe.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------
 
Geodesics can be built in any shape = with cubes=20 being probably quite difficult. The Ford Tri motor was literally three = motors=20 creating enough speed to fly a piece of bridge tressal. The Tri Motor = had criss=20 crossing (Internal (compression) struts. One had to crawl around them to = travel=20 fore to aft in the plane. Douglas, of McDonald Douglas fame introduced = the skin=20 or shell concept of fusalage design.
 
The End
 
P.S. This November vote early and often = for Alfred=20 E. Newman.
------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C00653.6E76B720-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:13:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: stalinist removal of rival delegates from \"DOOM (tm) Con\" <> Brian Q. Hutchings 15-AUG-2000 11:13 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us Live Webcast:Thursday, August 17, 11 AM (EDT) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE LYNDON LAROUCHE TO ADDRESS GLOBAL PRESS DURING DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION: HOW TO SAVE A DYING USA!!! Aug. 12 -- On Thursday, August 17 at 11 AM (EDT), Lyndon LaRouche will address the international press corps, including those participating in covering the Hitler-style Nuremberg rally otherwise known as the Democratic (or more aptly described the unDemocratic) National Convention in Los Angeles. The press conference will be conducted via a global teleconference that will be broadcast live from the presidential candidate's campaign website www.larouchecampaign.org. You are urged to participate in this extraordinary dialogue. To do so, please contact Angela Vullo at 1-800-929-7566 or 1-703-777- 451 extension 429 Insisting that they are a private club that is not obliged to conform with the 1965 Voting Rights Act, the Gore-dominated Democratic National Committee refused to seat duly elected convention delegates pledged to Lyndon LaRouche. The same Gore-DNC crowd used goon-style tactics to squash all dissent, and rammed through a Democratic Party Platform that explicitly rejects the traditional constituencies that comprise the base of the Democratic Party (that is, the 80% of the American people - the family farmers, blue collar workers, underpaid service workers, the elderly, and minorities - who are not making it in the stock market bubble), and instead reflects Gore's vision of free trade, fiscal conservatism, and tougher sentencing laws, including the death penalty. In a sharply worded statement responding to the Gore diktat that THERE SHALL BE NO DEBATE on the existential issues, centering on the world financial crisis, facing the United States and the world, LaRouche said, How could this nation have come to the point, that the only visible front-runners for U.S. President are not merely emotional and intellectual cripples unsuited even to understand the crisis looming before them, but are hide-bound fascists in the strictest definition of those terms? What is wrong with you, the citizens, that you could not rally behind actually alternative candidates LONG BEFORE his stage of the matter was reached?.... No longer must you permit yourself to demand that political leaders come down to your level; it is time for you to reach upwards, seeking out the best in those leaders, of course, and more urgently, in yourselves. Paid for by LaRouches Committee for a New Bretton Woods ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:08:00 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Nighttime Lights MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C006F4.8312AD00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C006F4.8312AD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nighttime lights of the Earth (NOAA): http://spidr.ngdc.noaa.gov:8080/production/html/BIOMASS/night.html Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C006F4.8312AD00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Nighttime Lights.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Nighttime Lights.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://spidr.ngdc.noaa.gov:8080/production/html/BIOMASS/night.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://spidr.ngdc.noaa.gov:8080/production/html/BIOMASS/night.html Modified=00E516FD2E07C001EE ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C006F4.8312AD00-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 04:52:48 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: dome break-in, music video vignette MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's an idea for a dome break-in, music video style skit. I got the idea from a formerly vacant dome next to a friend's house. I think every kid has broken into a vacant house before. There seems to be a lot of appeal to that. Do you know anybody that can put this stuff to use? I hate to see this stuff sit around going to waste. It's not like I expect any money for it. The idea, taking a hint from Kirby, is to give people a glimpse into and make them nostalgic for a realistically achievable near-term future. This is the complete idea. No other ideas for it are available at this time. But it could make an interesting opening scene to a sci-fi movie or such. A group of young kids are strolling along when they're surprised by a sudden thunderstorm. They take refuge in an old abandoned geodesic dome covered in brushy overgrowth. They find the door slightly ajar and force it open. Naturally the dome leaks. Inside, they find all kinds of '60s and '70s memorabilia stuff, with photo scrapbooks and films of community dome raisings, music albums, tape recordings and such. They put on some nostalgic old hippie clothes and dance to the beat of the music as they explore the dome's artifacts, interspersed with historical film clips of a bygone era. Suddenly, the thunderstorm breaks and rays of light shine through the clouds. As the dark clouds are breaking, they go outside in the sunshine, continuing their journey home, joyful in their nostalgic experience, and then, suddenly you see, the old abandoned dome is situated in the midst of a modern Dwelling Machine community, on the outskirts of a domed over, Spaceship Earth Science City. The old dome fades from view as you look into the glimmering world of a prosperous future. Spaceship Earth Science City is the trademark/servicemark of SpaceshipEarth.com and Spaceship Earth Science City For the Benefit of All Humanity! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 07:22:33 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: new member MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'd like to add General Plenty to the list of great generals, General Motors, General Electric, General Mills, General Dynamics, General Accounting Office,... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 09:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: new member MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain General Plenty will be replacing Major Disaster in managing the lead into the new millenium. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 9:23 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: new member > > I'd like to add General Plenty to the list of great > generals, General Motors, General Electric, General > Mills, General Dynamics, General Accounting Office,... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 07:31:20 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: stalinist removal of rival delegates from \"DOOM (tm) Con\" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Brian - In fifty words or less, what is the "world financial crisis." Dick --- Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. Hutchings > 15-AUG-2000 11:13 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > Live Webcast:Thursday, August 17, 11 AM (EDT) > PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE LYNDON LAROUCHE TO ADDRESS > GLOBAL PRESS DURING > DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION: HOW TO SAVE A > DYING USA!!! > > In a sharply worded statement responding to the > Gore diktat that THERE > SHALL BE NO DEBATE on the existential issues, > centering on the world > financial crisis, facing the United States and the > world, LaRouche said, > ===== Dick Fischbeck Hubdome, Patent-pending pending. UTOPIA, aka 'the future'. /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\ There are no bad kids!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:35:16 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: gregor markowitz Subject: LA domecity In-Reply-To: <20000816143120.3998.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed http://www.domevillage.org/dm/new/home.htm The domevillage in LA was moshed by overzealous police on August 14th while the protesters were being shot with rubber bullets and chemical weapons. -gregor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:08:40 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nelson Kruger Subject: Re: LA domecity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Gregor, Thanks for the note about DomeVillage. Good to see someone putting Bucky's ideas to good use. Later!! cyberclone.... Around the World in 60 seconds Surfing the Net and Browsing the Web from his Haven in the Heavens in the City of Angels! ICQ # 1951983 http://home.earthlink.net/~cyberclone ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:05:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: ULTRA-MICRO COMPUTER Comments: To: bspence@nanocomputer.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr Spence, Your group may be interested in the following information: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/VE-UltraMicroPC.htm http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/VE-UltraMicroPC-Sliced.htm http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/VE-AtomsNature.htm http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/VE-AtomsClosePack.htm http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/VE-UltraMicroPC-ElectronShell.htm Ref: http://nanocomputer.org/page1.html Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 19:22:23 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Colleges going wireless MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit College With No Wires Attached More campuses are going wireless for the convenience and low cost. Students and administrators are looking forward to computing where they want, when they want. http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,37913,00.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 19:26:31 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Open-source software will soon dominate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Open-source software will dominate in four years: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,38240,00.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 20:07:44 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: The R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a slightly revised message previously posted to the Tetworld mailing list, for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's World Game concept. I dreamed up the idea for a Spaceship Earth Science City some time ago, but when I added Buckminster Fuller's name to it, I felt like it gave it real life. The R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City (tm) Strategically Located in Central Texas Launch Site for the Spaceship Earth Race An International Cooperative Effort to Achieve Complete Physical Success for All Humanity Within the First Decade of the 21st Century. The World Game Pavilion, as envisioned by Buckminster Fuller for the Montreal Expo, could be the centerpiece of the Spaceship Earth Science City. It's construction could be the groundbreaking ceremony for the project. The strategies developed by the World Game would be the Critical Path for the Spaceship Earth Race. The individuals and teams created by the World Game could initiate Spaceship Earth Science Cities on every continent of the Earth. Then we could speed up the process of human development to conform with our Space Age potentials and win the game. The pavilion housing the World Game can be converted for other uses. It can host a World Game in the daytime and convert to play soccer (the official sport of the Spaceship Earth Science City) or to host a concert that night. Mass-producing advanced life-support technologies, such as Dwelling Machines, and spawning other Spaceship Earth Science Cities around the globe, are the primary purposes of the Spaceship Earth Science City. In addition to production facilities, the Spaceship Earth Science City will be a theme park and tourist attraction, convention and trade center (hosting conferences and trade shows focusing on high-technology, renewable energy, sustainable development and industrial design), a sports and entertainment arena, research, development and prototyping facility, training and education center, media and entertainment development center, and will have many other additional facilities such as 'space farms.' It will be a model city for a 21st century scientific civilization. It will have all of the facilities of a conventional city. There's lots of space available in Central Texas for a venture of this type. Central Texas (centered between Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, Austin and San Antonio) is a combination of dense populations and wide open spaces. Recent articles in the newspaper say that Central Texas is primed for a high-tech venture such as the Spaceship Earth Science City. I believe so as well. While politics may have played a part in choosing Central Texas as the location for the failed superconducting-supercollider it's a clear indication that Central Texas is a prime location for building the most advance high-tech center that our 21st century technological civilization can achieve. Local authorities believe that Central Texas is primed for the establishment of a high-tech center. They say that it's only a matter of time. Experts that were paramount in establishing Austin, Texas as a high-tech center have been hired as consultants to develop a strategy and lure business interest to this area to establish a high-tech center. There's already a lot going on here, in computers, communications, education, aerospace, and many fields, but it doesn't have the profile that larger high-tech centers have. Central Texas is a strategic location for the R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City because of the many educational institutions, defense, aircraft and aerospace industries, computer and electronics industries, mass-production housing industries, extensive agricultural infrastructure that needs to be moved into the Space Age, a growing wind energy industry and dying oil industry, mild climate, close proximity to other theme parks and tourist attractions (Six Flags, Astro World, Sea World, Space Center, water parks, botanical gardens, zoos and wildlife parks, caverns, and countless other attractions), the rapidly growing population and central location to all of North America's major population centers, and the growing need for housing and other infrastructure in the region. It's central location in the United States, and all major population centers in Texas, has made Central Texas an ever increasingly popular location for conventions and events of all kinds. There's not enough hotels and facilities to meet current demand. More such infrastructure, such as the Spaceship Earth Science City Hotel and Convention Center, would attract more and larger events. The Spaceship Earth Science City is at the vision stage of development. There are more questions than answers. There are no hard designs. Designers, engineers and students will develop the design. Investors are standing in line waiting for a venture like this to open up. Investors will continue to shuffle their money around wrecking havoc on the world's economy until a venture like this comes along that represents a viable transition from the old economy of scarcity to the new economy of abundance. People take their entertainments very seriously, far more seriously than the work which they do grudgingly because they have to do it! A Spaceship Earth Science City is more seriously relevant than the facades that make up other famous theme parks, and yet it can provide all of the excitement and entertainment that they offer, and much more; a 21st century adventure vacation that you won't want to miss. People will flock to watch the final Countdown to Complete Physical Success for All Humanity. They'll tour the Spaceship Earth Science City and see the emergence of a new Scientific Civilization, and they'll replicate it around the world. The Spaceship Earth Science City will attract the creative cream of the world's crop who are looking for an alternative to corporate life and non-fulfilling lifestyles, and want to live and work in a community that supports their growth and creativity. The Spaceship Earth Science City, conceived in Waco, and dedicated to the achievement of complete physical success for all humanity, is a clear alternative to the Apocalyptic doomsday prophecy of David Korish that Waco, Texas has unjustly come to symbolize. Together, the Waco tragedy and the Spaceship Earth Science City symbolize humanities race between utopia and oblivion. As the home of the failed superconducting-supercollider, Central Texas is symbolically fitting as the location of the R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City. It's also symbolically fitting that the Texas legislature designated the buckminsterfullerene "the Official Molecule of the State of Texas." When I have time, I'll explain why the superconducting-supercolider, formerly slated for construction in Central Texas, was domed to failure from it's inception, and why the R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City, strategically located in Central Texas, is destined for success. For now, I'll leave with these quotes from "Cosmography." "Synergetics provides real-world understanding of interarrangeabilities of subatomic particles, which is to say, a more sophisticated understanding of subatomics than that of the nuclear physicist whose favorite tool is the atom smasher. "Although I have gone into this subject in a certain amount of detail, what I have intended to demonstrate is simply that the framework of synergetic geometry makes possible the discovery of many varieties of subatomics all within the same seemingly static space. "Through the use of synergetic geometry, then, particle physics, which is one of the more abstruse and esoteric areas of frontier theorizing in science, falls within the grasp of the ordinary individual, allowing him or her to consider, to model, and to puzzle over it. Synergetics uses simple models based on a few basic modules that fit together in the most logical possible ways. Synergetics uses whole numbers, completely eliminating all irrational, imaginary, and irresolvable numbers and complex formulae. It is amazing that technology has been able to produce what it has, considering the obstacle presented by current scientific conventions in the field of geometry and measurement. The scientific and academic establishment still cowers in the Dark Ages imposed by human power structures many centuries ago. The dawn of scientific civilization is yet at hand." "Government-financed, private-enterprise-exploited atomic accelerators and their kindred producers spend about a billion dollars per subatomic particle discovered, whereas I have firmly established and classified all that they have or ever will soon discover, and vastly more, only at the cost of living expenses for self and family during my fifty-four-year program. "These are my own half-century-ago discoveries, comprehensively published together for the first time in Synergetics." -- Buckminster Fuller. Cosmography p. 63 "The present preoccupation of the world's physicists is to use billions of dollars' worth of atom smashers to discover something about the nucleus of the atom, which is akin to smashing a Boeing 747 in order to discover how it's 500,000 component parts fit together in one functional design. All the physicists need to do is study Synergetics to learn how nature designed atoms and combinations of them - in pure principle." -- Buckminster Fuller. Cosmography p. 244-245 Spaceship Earth Science City is the trademark/servicemark of SpaceshipEarth.com and Spaceship Earth Science City For The Benefit of All Humanity! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 19:32:19 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: The R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City <> Brian Q. Hutchings 16-AUG-2000 19:32 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us I appreciate your prosaic attempts, Space, but let me submit to you that the "teams" already exist, in the form of nations. it is unfortunate that the retroteleology of Toynbee has so-permeated the thought of Bucky, as well as most of academe in the USA, via the fabulous Fabian Society at Chicago U. as for "nothing but rationals" -- don't use a rational, when only a transcendental will fly! thus quoth: Game would be the Critical Path for the Spaceship Earth Race. The individual and teams created by the World Game could initiate Spaceship Earth Science Cities on every continent of the Earth. Then we ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:01:53 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Paper Houses book Comments: To: Domesteading List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a book I never heard of that someone may be interested in. Can somebody give us a book review? PAPER HOUSES: Build a Livable, Enduring House of Paper.... by Sheppard, Roger with Richard Threadgill and John Holmes New York: Schocken Books, 1974. First Thus. Very Good/ Oversize Softcover In good shape, with just a bit of soiling and very light creasing to spine. A part of the Bucky Fuller legacy, with extensive diagrams of geodesic designs. (Keywords: geodesic, buckminster fuller) The price of the book is US$ 16.50 Please reference the seller's book # 1181 when ordering. To order this book click here: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?ph=1&bi=76797799 The seller is Steven Streufert, Bookseller Post Office Box # 78 , Blue Lake, CA, U.S.A., 95525. Ph: 707-668-5030 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:30:55 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Anton Sherwood Organization: That would be telling. Subject: Re: Paper Houses book Comments: To: domesteading@sculptors.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SpaceshipEarth@mail.com wrote: > > Here's a book I never heard of that someone may be interested in. > Can somebody give us a book review? > > PAPER HOUSES: Build a Livable, Enduring House of Paper.... by > Sheppard, Roger with Richard Threadgill and John Holmes New York: > Schocken Books, 1974. ... I have this. What, you want me to READ it? ;) -- Anton Sherwood -- br0nt0@p0b0x.com -- http://ogre.nu/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 13:34:06 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Paper Houses book MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is it about paper houses or paper models or both? Anton Sherwood wrote: > > SpaceshipEarth@mail.com wrote: > > > > Here's a book I never heard of that someone may be interested in. > > Can somebody give us a book review? > > > > PAPER HOUSES: Build a Livable, Enduring House of Paper.... by > > Sheppard, Roger with Richard Threadgill and John Holmes New York: > > Schocken Books, 1974. ... > > I have this. What, you want me to READ it? ;) > > -- > Anton Sherwood -- br0nt0@p0b0x.com -- http://ogre.nu/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:05:04 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: how to sustain the rapid growth of prosperity Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" , synergeo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What steps can be taken to develop a transitional economy, from what we have now, to the utopian idea of Fuller's billionaire's inheritance for each person on Earth? I think that before you can make such quantum leaps in any endeavor, you first have to raise conditions to a slightly higher degree than the present situation, creating an environment that is conducive to a sudden leap forward, like giving a person a hand hold to put their foot on to leap over a wall. Eliminating poverty and hunger is certainly part of that answer. Once that breakthrough is achieved, there will be rapid breakthroughs in every field, from economics to the development of space. And that is precisely why we should put most endeavors on hold, and direct all of our resources one pointedly to sustainable development activities, because, after a decade of such, we would be able to leap frog over any missed accomplishments that were forestalled by that endeavor. Just like, if you sent a spaceship on a journey to a distant star today, with present propulsion technology, it would be passed by a spaceship that is sent a hundred years, or even a thousand years from now because of the more advanced propulsion technology that that spaceship will use. It would arrive long before the ship sent today. Our present economic system does not support the rapid development of economic prosperity for everyone. If the economy starts growing rapidly, they try to put the breaks on it. As soon as the wages for the lower workers start to rise, and many people are buying houses, and unemployment is reduced to a low level, they say the economy is growing too fast, and must be slowed down. Whenever executive salaries reach exorbitant levels, there is little concern, but when the common worker is in high demand and can command higher wages, and many begin to buy houses, they raise concern over this, and apply the breaks. The Fed does this by raising interest rates to make loans more costly, at the same time, politicians offer big tax breaks which will counter the effect this will have. I guess I'm just naive, but why don't they try a little education, give people a little lesson in economics, and ask people to save more and spend less frivolously. But asking people to spend less appears to be political suicide. Politicians don't ask people to spend less. It's un-American. They think that people will either not react to such common sense pleas, or will react more than desired and slow down a booming economy. The political issue of the day is how to keep the economic good times rolling. Clearly, the answer is that our present economic system must be changed in a way that can sustain the rapid growth of prosperity for all humanity. The present one can't. Our present economic system is adapted to scarcity. It's adapted to the ages old economic principles first laid out by Thomas Malthus, where some people can afford a new home, and some people can have a good paying job, but not everyone can be prosperous. If economics can't be separated from politics, than the political issue of the day is how to change the economic system to sustain the rapid growth of prosperity for all. Now how do you resolve the issue? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 06:57:29 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: building a theory of economics from the ground up Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" , synergeo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Buckminster Fuller related social phenomena to geometry and I'm seeing more and more findings like this, which relate social phenomena to physics. I didn't get much out of this, but maybe someone else will. THE WEALTHY FEW Every country in the world has a few rich people and then a long tail of poorer and poorer people. In fact, not only does a filthy-rich minority always hog most of the wealth, but the mathematical form of the distribution is the same everywhere. In much of the Western world, for example, 20 per cent of the people always own 80 per cent of the wealth. Is this a law of economics? No, worse than that - it's a law of nature. With the help of some serious mathematics borrowed from the study of disordered materials, econophysicists Jean-Philippe Boucaud and Marc Mezard explain why we'd still end up with the same distributions of rich and poor, even if we all started life with the same abilities and the same amount of money. On a brighter note however, even if the new theory can predict ratios, it can't forecast which of us will be rich and which will be poor. http://www.newscientist.com/nl/0819/money.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 06:02:37 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mark Siegmund Subject: Re: [Tetworld] how to sustain the rapid growth of prosperity Comments: To: Tetworld Peace Through Development Project , synergeo In-Reply-To: <399CB5ED.A290D61E@mail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I agree with your point about "creating a climate"--or perhaps in a Fullerian vernacular--"trimtabbing" our mileau. How to alter course with a minimum of effort (investment of mind and information "capital") yielding a maximum return. Once that course is altered, events and the future take on their own dynamics (generative and self-correcting)--cause then we're on a course to Eden, rather than to Hell. To me, world gaming is about creating the levers, or trimtabs, to correct our course. Mark > From: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com > Reply-To: "Tetworld Peace Through Development Project" > Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 04:05:04 +0000 > To: GEODESIC List , "tetworld@listbot.com" > , synergeo > Subject: [Tetworld] how to sustain the rapid growth of prosperity > > Tetworld Peace Through Development Project - http://netword.com/Tetworld > > What steps can be taken to develop a transitional economy, from > what we have now, to the utopian idea of Fuller's billionaire's > inheritance for each person on Earth? I think that before you can > make such quantum leaps in any endeavor, you first have to raise > conditions to a slightly higher degree than the present > situation, creating an environment that is conducive to a sudden > leap forward, like giving a person a hand hold to put their foot > on to leap over a wall. > > Eliminating poverty and hunger is certainly part of that answer. > Once that breakthrough is achieved, there will be rapid > breakthroughs in every field, from economics to the development > of space. And that is precisely why we should put most > endeavors on hold, and direct all of our resources one pointedly > to sustainable development activities, because, after a decade of > such, we would be able to leap frog over any missed > accomplishments that were forestalled by that endeavor. Just > like, if you sent a spaceship on a journey to a distant star > today, with present propulsion technology, it would be passed by a > spaceship that is sent a hundred years, or even a thousand years > from now because of the more advanced propulsion technology that > that spaceship will use. It would arrive long before the ship > sent today. > > Our present economic system does not support the rapid > development of economic prosperity for everyone. If the economy > starts growing rapidly, they try to put the breaks on it. As soon > as the wages for the lower workers start to rise, and many people > are buying houses, and unemployment is reduced to a low level, > they say the economy is growing too fast, and must be slowed > down. Whenever executive salaries reach exorbitant levels, there > is little concern, but when the common worker is in high demand > and can command higher wages, and many begin to buy houses, they > raise concern over this, and apply the breaks. The Fed does this > by raising interest rates to make loans more costly, at the same > time, politicians offer big tax breaks which will counter the > effect this will have. I guess I'm just naive, but why don't they > try a little education, give people a little lesson in economics, > and ask people to save more and spend less frivolously. But > asking people to spend less appears to be political suicide. > Politicians don't ask people to spend less. It's un-American. > They think that people will either not react to such common sense > pleas, or will react more than desired and slow down a booming economy. > > The political issue of the day is how to keep the economic good > times rolling. Clearly, the answer is that our present economic > system must be changed in a way that can sustain the rapid growth > of prosperity for all humanity. The present one can't. Our > present economic system is adapted to scarcity. It's adapted to > the ages old economic principles first laid out by Thomas > Malthus, where some people can afford a new home, and some people > can have a good paying job, but not everyone can be prosperous. > If economics can't be separated from politics, than the political > issue of the day is how to change the economic system to sustain > the rapid growth of prosperity for all. Now how do you resolve > the issue? > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, write to Tetworld-unsubscribe@listbot.com > > Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 06:56:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Eureka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii We now have, after fifty years as Bucky predicted, the omni-frequency dome structure. Question- What is the highest frequency dome structure you know of? More soon. Have to talk to my patent attorney. %) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:27:35 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: WORKING MODEL FOR SPACESHIP EARTH INTRODUCTION Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The following series of postings is an introduction to the following project. Considerable research and writing has gone into this since this was written and these papers are past prime for reworking and expanding. This was the first writing I ever did since high school, so please excuse the glaring grammar and punctuation errors. THE WORLD PEACE GARDEN PROJECT AND WORKING MODEL FOR SPACESHIP EARTH A WORKING MODEL FOR THE SUSTAINABLE, ECOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE PLANET AND AN INTERNATIONAL RESEARCH AND EDUCATION CENTER FOR THE CONSERVATION OF THE EARTH'S RARE AND ENDANGERED FLORA AND FAUNA AND CROP GENETIC RESOURCES INTRODUCTION Ecuador is a model biosphere of the Earth and world center of natural biological diversity. Twenty-five of the earth's 30 life zones are represented in Ecuador, a country of only 106,000 sq. miles (274,540 sq. km.), about the size of the state of Colorado. Every climatic type from tropic to arctic, and from desert to pluvial is found in Ecuador, with altitudes ranging from sea level to alpine. (See bioclimatic and life zone charts.) This unique diversity of microclimates and ecological regions offers an important opportunity to establish a working model for the sustainable, ecological development of the planet and an international center for the conservation of the earth's rare and endangered flora and fauna and crop genetic resources. The World Peace Garden Project has two major objectives. These objectives are as follows: A WORKING MODEL FOR SPACESHIP EARTH Establish a working model for the planet, to prove our ability to make the world work, centered in the small country of Ecuador, where 25 of the earth's 30 life zones are represented, which may be utilized as a center stage for demonstrating the techniques and technologies for the regeneration of the earth and the sustainable development of the planet, and for the transfer of those technologies to other regions around the globe. A WORLD PEACE GARDEN A World Peace Garden situated in a mountain valley in Ecuador, modeled on the 35 floristic regions of the world and the 12 world centers of diversity for our food and economic crops, where cultures from every country, and from every floristic region can come together in an international spirit of cooperation and ethnic pride, to build a garden of the world, and a symbol of unity and diversity. FORTHCOMING: A VIRTUAL MODEL FOR SPACESHIP EARTH A BIOREGIONAL BUSINESS-TO-BUSINESS INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY EXCHANGE Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com. FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:38:23 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dave Anderson Subject: new paper MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geodesic Artifacts... reports on my current doings and some new visualizations. http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/artifacts - Dave Anderson http://w3.one.net/~monkey ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 10:42:05 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: ECUADOR: A MODEL BIOSPHERE OF THE EARTH AND WORLD CENTER OF NATURAL BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ECUADOR A MODEL BIOSPHERE OF THE EARTH AND WORLD CENTER OF NATURAL BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY A MODEL BIOSPHERE OF THE EARTH 'Ecuador is an ecological universe within the borders of a single country.' (1) It is 'a country of geographic contrast and undoubtedly one of the most varied and complicated from the point of view of climate, topography, soils, and natural vegetation.' (1) 'The complicated ecological mosaic [of the Andean bioregion] created countless microclimates, including some of the driest and wettest, coldest and hottest, and lowest and highest found anywhere in the world. Perhaps no other contiguous region has such a broad range of environments. And the region is so fragmented that rainfall, frost, sunlight, and soil type can vary over distances as short as a few meters.' (2) Ecuador has a 'countless range of microclimates that vary infinitely.' (3) It is 'a land of extreme climatic contrasts, in an area smaller than the state of Arizona.' (4) 'Climatic variation that usually requires thousands of miles of latitudinal change takes place astride the equator in fewer than four vertical miles.' (4) More than 30 bioclimatic regions and 25 of the earth's 30 life-zones are represented in Ecuador, a country of only 106,000 sq. miles (274,540 sq. km). The driest life-zones, having 4 in. (100 mill.) less precipitation per year than are found within Ecuador, are found in Peru, just outside of Ecuador's border to the south. A life-zone is precisely defined by the ranges of the three major climatic factors: heat, precipitation, and moisture. Each life-zone, comprising a definite range of climatic conditions, is found in widely separate regions of the planet. These climatic factors leave a definite mark on the soils, natural vegetation, animal activities, and the cultural activities of humans. 'A life-zone is not only a specific environment but also indicates a definite way of life.' It is 'correlated with a set of agricultural practices' and with 'types of buildings related to the general agricultural land use.' The soils, agriculture, natural vegetation, and animal activities 'serve clearly to indicate the life-zone.' (5) Geographic mapping systems, which chart climatic and vegetational zones, do not provide a picture of the incredible diversity of ecological regions that are found within Ecuador's borders because the scale of the mapping system does not show major environmental changes that occur within short distances. (6) A number of unique environmental factors contribute to creating a diversity of environmental features in Ecuador, and the transition from one environment to another can be unusually abrupt. A variable combination of topography, altitude, wind patterns, humidity, and ocean currents cause major climatic changes, all in close proximity. Although Ecuador is situated on the equator, due to the cool Peru or Humboldt current and cool mountain highlands, its climate is quite unequatorial. The Andes Mountains, running north and south through the center of the country, consist of two ranges, an eastern and western cordillera running parallel, 25 to 40 miles apart (40 to 65 km), with the inter-Andean Valley between. A number of transverse mountain ridges run east to west between the inter-Andean Valley, creating a series of some 12 narrow interconnected basins. (7) Many of Ecuador's high mountain peaks are covered in snow, some are heavily glaciated. (8) East of the Andes Mountains lies the Amazon Basin and the torrid zone. Climate varies by altitude, being warm in the lowlands and cool to frigid in the highlands. The country's air temperature decreases with altitude about 5.5° C (41.9° F) per 1000 m (3,280 ft.) elevation. The increase in air temperature at lower levels is the result of two main factors: the insulating value of the atmosphere and air pressure created by gravitation. Pressure generates heat. As you ascend in altitude the air pressure is gradually reduced and the temperature falls. (9) The atmosphere also impounds heat from the sun and provides a layer of insulation to the Earth. This is called the 'greenhouse effect.' The thicker atmosphere at lower altitudes provides greater insulation and heat retention. Heat readily escapes into space in the thin atmosphere at higher elevations,. The decrease in air temperature with altitude is considerably less on the more humid windward side of a mountain. This is due to the release of heat from the warm water vapor in the air as it condenses into rain in the cool upper atmosphere. (9) A tropical climate ranges from 0 - 1000 ft (0 - 300 m) on the cooler and dryer coastal slopes of the western Andes, but on the humid windward slopes of the eastern cordillera a tropical climate extends from 0 - 2000 ft (0 - 600 m). A subtropical climate on the western slopes of the Andes ranges from 1000 - 6560 ft (300 - 2000 m), but on the eastern slopes a subtropical climate ranges from 2000 - 6560 ft (600 - 2000 m). (1) In general, depending on location, a mild-temperate climate ranges upward from about 6000 ft (1830 m), and a cool-temperate climate upward from about 10,000 ft (3050 m). (1) Regular nighttime frost and daytime thawing occurs upward of about 14,100 ft (4300 m). A mean annual temperature of 0° C (32° F) occurs at somewhat below 16,075 ft (4900 m). (8) Perennial snow occurs at about 15,750 ft (4800 m) with a seasonal variation of about 200 to 230 ft (60 to 70 m). (9) The huge glaciers of Mt. Chimborazo extend to as low as 13,125 ft (4000 m). (8) The closest glaciers to the equator are found in Ecuador. The only snow that falls directly on the equator is found on the southern slopes of Mt. Cayambe in Ecuador. This is the highest point on the equator, with an altitude of nearly 16,400 ft (5000 m). (4) Here there are frequent snows and the average annual temperature is colder than that of Anchorage, Alaska. (4) 'The orientation of mountain slopes with respect to the movement of air masses leads to a sharp contrast in the amount of precipitation at regional levels between leeward and windward slopes.' (10) Both the northern and southern trade winds meet at the equator within Ecuador's complex network of mountains and valleys, which act as funnels and barriers for these winds, producing a diversity of interesting rainfall phenomenon, and many wet and dry microclimates. As winds are forced upward by mountain slopes they penetrate cold air, causing their moisture to be condensed into rainfall. The height and shape of a mountain, in relation to the prevailing winds, will determine how much rain is dropped where. A rounded mountain with its summit near the upper limit of an inversion layer, where hot air meets cool air, will condense rainfall on its windward side, with precipitation continuing onto the leeward side of the mountain until the clouds have lost all of their excess moisture. If a mountain is higher than the inversion layer, there will be a marked lowering of rainfall at higher elevations, leaving little or no rain on the leeward side as the winds cross over the summit. When two mountain chains are parallel to each other, as is found throughout Ecuador, one mountain can receive much rain, leaving the other in a dry 'rain-shadow.' The high Andes and interior basins are characteristically dry, (8) with dry areas in many rain-shadowed inter-Andean valleys. (11)(12) Steep slopes or a cliff can force winds up rapidly, causing much of the rainfall to occur on the summit and leeward side. Exceedingly heavy rainfall occurs where winds are funneled into valleys that lead directly to the mountain summit. The westward blowing trade winds loose much of their moisture as they move up the slopes of the eastern cordillera. (12) As a result, the eastern side of the Ecuadorian Andes, from the treeline down to the lowland plains, is one of the wettest parts of the whole Amazon basin, with no seasonal variation in rainfall. (13) About 100 miles (160 km) west of the Andes is the Pacific Ocean, where the unusually cool waters, for this latitude, of the Peru or Humboldt current, flowing north along the Pacific shore, meets the warm, southward flowing El Nino current. The 'warm rain-accompanied [El Nino] current and the cool Peruvian current with its desiccating winds, combine to produce a series of warm, low-latitude, wet and dry climates along the central and southern coastlands. The same wet-dry rhythm is reflected on the cooler slopes of the west Andean range.' (12) A monsoon climatic type extends in a broad belt along the base of the western cordillera. (12) Some of the wettest and driest regions on earth are located just outside of Ecuador's borders to the north and south. The wettest region of the world, and the only 'true' tropical rain forest in the American tropics (according to the Holdridge Life-Zone Classification System), is found just outside of Ecuador's border to the north, in the Pacific coast region of Columbia. (11) The coastal desert of Peru, which extends into Ecuador's southern border, is one of the driest deserts on earth. A WORLD CENTER OF NATURAL BIOLOGICAL DIVERSITY Ecuador's variety of ecological habitats supports a biological diversity unparalleled by any country of its size in the world. It is essential that we act quickly, as our first priority, to preserve areas with the highest biological diversity that are in danger of destruction. South America is said to have the richest botanical diversity in the tropics. (14) The Amazon Basin is the largest, most diverse tropical rain forest in the world. The Andean zone is said to have the highest diversity of plant and animal life on the planet. (15) 'Many scientists consider Ecuador to have more plants per unit area than any other country in South America.' (16) with a very high level of endemism. (16)(17)(13) 'The country perhaps features as many as 20,000 plant species, compared with an estimated 20,000 for all of Central America including southern Mexico, and 25,000 - 30,000 for all of Brazilian Amazonia.' (13) But it's estimated that Ecuador will almost certainly be completely deforested in a mere 10 years. (26)(11) Widespread extinction has already occurred in Ecuador's coastal lowlands after it was almost completely deforested in a mere 10 years, and may contain more acutely threatened species than any other part of South America. (13) Traveling from the tropical lowlands to Ecuador's snow capped highlands is equivalent to a much longer trip of about 4,600 miles (7,400 km), from the equator to the Arctic Circle. Traveling up the mountains through different levels, you pass through examples of practically every kind of plant community found in the world at large, from tropical forest and desert savanna, to alpine scrub above tree line, and 'alpine tundra vegetation in the permafrost belt. (18) Similar changes in plant-life-zones occur as one travels from the equator to the poles. High equatorial mountains are of considerable biological interest, since they support biota which in many respects resemble those of temperate mountains and even arctic regions, but under conditions without an alternating winter and summer. (19) 'The compaction of so many distinctive vegetational zones into such a small area makes the Andean slopes especially important for conservation.' (11) It's estimated that about half of all the plant species of the American tropics are found above 500 m (1,640 ft.) (including species that also range into the lowlands), and that this high diversity is concentrated in Ecuador, Peru, and Columbia. (11) A typical four square mile (2,560 acre) area of rainforest normally contains up to 1,500 species of flowering plants and as many as 750 species of trees. (20) In Ecuador's deforested coastal lowlands, a tiny remnant of almost extinct Pacific lowland rain forest, at what is now the Río Palenque Science Center, contains over 1,350 species from 136 families, recorded from only 100 hectares (247 acres) of tropical rain forest. (16) About 20 % of the Río Palenque species are endemic to Ecuador and another five percent are endemic to Ecuador plus extreme south-western Columbia. (11) Forty-three are known only from this sight, (16) including the Rio Palenque Mahogany (Persea theobromifolia), one of the 10 most endangered plants in the world, of which only 12 mature trees exist. (21) Rio Palenque probably has the highest recorded plant diversity in the world. (22)(13) 'The Andean region became an important center for domestication of crop species because of its striking geographical contrast.' (2) Twelve major world centers of diversity for our food and economic crops are recognized. (23) The Andean region of Ecuador, Peru, and Bolivia is one of the most important and diverse of these centers. The Incas cultivated as many as 70 crop species, almost as many species of plants as the farmers of all of Asia or Europe. (2) Twenty-two percent of the world's palm genera are found in Ecuador, more than on the entire continent of Africa. (17) North-western Amazonia is the richest area of diversity for tropical fruit germplasm in South America, and is being recognized as an important new center of crop diversity, with previously undescribed cultivated species being found by researchers studying the remaining Amerindian groups in the region. (24)(25) References: 1. Luis CaÒadas, Mapa Bioclimatico y Ecológico del Ecuador, 1983, Banco Central del Ecuador, Quito, Ecuador. 2. National Research Council, Lost Crops of the Incas, Little-Known Plants of the Andes with Promise for Worldwide Cultivation, National Academy Press, Washington, D.C. 3. Nelson E. Gómez, Atlas Del Ecuador: Geografia y Economía, 1990, Quito, Ecuador 4. Reference Lost 5. L.R. Holdridge, Life Zone Ecology, 1967, Tropical Science Center, San Jose, Costa Rica 6. Biotic Provinces of the World: Further development of a system for defining and classifying natural regions for purposes of conservation, 1974, International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources, Morges, Switzerland 7. David W. Schodt, Ecuador: An Andean Enigma, 1987, Westview Press, Boulder Colorado 8. Stefan Hastenrath, The Glaciation of the Ecuadorian Andes, 1981, A.A. Balkema, Rotterdam, Netherlands 9. Willy Rudloff, World Climates, 1981, WVA, Stuttgart, Germany 10. Guillermo Sarmiento, "Ecological Features of Climates in High Tropical Mountains," chapter from High Altitude Tropical Biogeography, 1986, Francois Vuilleumier and Maximina Monasterio, Editors, Oxford University Press, Oxford, England 11. David G.Campbell, and H. David Hammond, editors. Floristic Inventory of Tropical Countries, 1989, New York Botanical Gardens, New York 12. Edwin N. Ferdon, Jr. Studies in Ecuadorian Geography, 1950, School of American Research and University of Southern California 13. Norman Myers, Conversion of Tropical Moist Forest, 1980, National Academy of Sciences, Washington, D.C. 14. E. Forero, "80,000 plants in South America: the case for creating more botanic gardens," chapter from Botanic Gardens and the World Conservation Strategy, 1987, Academic Press, London 15. Jon Fjeldsa and Niels Krabbe. Birds of the High Andes, 1990, Zoological Museum, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, Denmark 16. Plants in Danger: What Do We Know, 1986, International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN), Switzerland 17. The Fifth Peace Seeds Research Journal, 1989 _ 1990, Peace Seeds, Corvallis, Oregon U.S.A. 18. National Research Council, Ecological Aspects of Development in the Humid Tropics, 1982, National Academy Press, Washington, D.C., U.S.A. 19. R.J. Hnatiuk, J.M.B. Smith, and D.N. McVean. The Climate of Mt. Wilhelm, 1976, The Australian National University Press, Canbena, Australia 20. Catherine Caufield, 1984, In the Rainforest, University of Chicago Press, Chicago, IL 21. Mark Collins, Editor. The Last Rain Forest: A World Conservation Atlas, 1990, Rodale Press, Emmaus, Pennsylvania U.S.A. 22. Alwyn H. Gentry, "Endangered Plant Species and Habitats of Ecuador and Amazonian Peru," chapter from Extinction is Forever: The Status of Threatened and Endangered Plants of the Americas, Ghillean T. Prance, 1977, New York Botanical Garden, N.Y. 23. Steven C. Witt, BriefBook: Biotechnology and Genetic Diversity, 1985, California Agricultural Lands Project 24. Charles R. Clement, "A Center of Crop Genetic Diversity in Western Amazonia: A new hypothesis of indigenous fruit-crop distribution," Biosciences, Vol. 39 No. 9, Oct., 1989, P. 624 25. Charles R. Clement, "Amazonian Fruits: Neglected, Threatened and Potentially Rich Resources Require Urgent Attention," Diversity, Vol. 7, Nos 1&2, 1991, P. 56 26. G.T. Prance, "South America," chapter from Systematic Botany, Plant Utilization, and Biosphere Conservation, 1979 Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com. FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:10:24 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: A WORKING MODEL FOR THE SUSTAINABLE, ECOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE PLANET Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A WORKING MODEL FOR THE SUSTAINABLE, ECOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE PLANET INTRODUCTION With over 30 bioclimatic regions and 25 of the earth's 30 life zones, Ecuador is a model biosphere of the Earth, and may be utilized as a center stage for demonstrating the techniques and technologies for the regeneration of the earth and the sustainable development of the planet, and for the transfer of those technologies to other regions around the globe. "We know how to solve every food, clean energy, and sensible shelter problem in every climate. We have already invented and tested every necessary technique and technical device... 46." Bringing together and demonstrating the many creative alternatives available for meeting our basic human needs, and for solving world problems, in one unique location such as Ecuador, could have a profound effect in the world. In Ecuador, a diversity of sustainable community and rural development projects can be implemented, in "a multitude of natural landscapes and microclimates 1," were one encounters "a diversification of agricultural, sociological, and economic regions, each one distinct from the other 1," each one in close proximity to another. As the whole world now focuses on how to save ourselves from our own self- destruction, yet provide for all the world's needs, Ecuador, with its remarkable diversity of climate, topography, soils, and ecological regions is unsurpassed for the study of alternatives in agriculture, forestry, housing, industry, energy, and sustainable community and rural development, relevant to the highland and lowland tropics, where this research is greatly needed. WHY A WORKING MODEL IS NECESSARY TO IMPLEMENT THE SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PLANET The means necessary to implement the sustainable, ecological development of the planet: the political resolve, public appeal, mobilization of knowledge, institutional arrangements, planning policies, training and education, and countless other necessary elements can only be achieved in a practical and timely way by the development of a working model for the planet. There is no engineering in the classical tradition without some prior specification of a dynamic model 106. "It is often futile to attempt a head-on-attack at solving problems involving complex systems 108." "Modeling is an important transitional step in problem-solving, whether the problem is well defined or nebulous 107." In order to make the world work it is necessary to follow the same modeling process that is used to organize and make any other complex engineering system work. A working model for the planet is the optimum solution to world problems, in the same way that working models have been found to be the optimum solution in engineering, design, marketing, and organization. When you have a new invention you develop and test it by building a working model; a prototype. Humanity has inherited a full scale working planet, but an "operating manual for Spaceship Earth" didn't come with it. As a result we've made a terrible mess of this planet. This project could have a profound effect in the world. It could be the key to saving our precious earth. By demonstrating the potential that exist in Ecuador we can demonstrate and bring forth the potential that exist on the entire planet. Although we have not perceived it as such, the biosphere is a mechanical system; one which is designed to regenerate life. Engineering is the application of what we have learned about our environment to derive human benefits from it. The misuse of the environment demonstrates that the biosphere, like any mechanical system will break down if improperly used. The mechanics of the biosphere must therefore be understood and applied properly if we are to be successful in the sustainable utilization of the planet. 109 The most satisfactory form of model is a prototype, or working model which operates as much like the full scale system as possible 110. As a model biosphere of the earth, Ecuador may be utilized as a center stage for demonstrating the techniques and technologies for the regeneration of the earth and the sustainable development of the planet, and for the transfer of those technologies to other regions around the globe. Humanity has reached the critical stage of development where we must mobilize our knowledge to prove our ability to live in harmony with the earth. The greatest technical expertise of many cultures has been the survival technology they have developed to cope with their especially demanding environments 76. The knowledge humanity has gained from adapting to different environments to provide for human needs can be brought together into parallel environments in Ecuador to establish a working model for the sustainable development of the planet, and prove our ability to make the world work. The prototype stage of development is an important point in the design process of any system. It is the time when knowledge must be brought together to prove capabilities. The prototype stage is also when public acceptance and user satisfaction must be demonstrated, and that the system can be operated successfully and economically. These questions are best answered by prototype models that are operated not by researchers, but by actual users. This has the added benefit of increasing public knowledge of the technology, thereby increasing chances of acceptance. 111 The mind forms a model of everything we think of, and forms judgments and makes decisions on the basis of these models, even when the model is an incomplete one 112. Improper and incomplete models are often presented to gain public support for social and political issues. When models of social, political, economic, and ecological problems are too simple and neglect vitally important ingredients, the remedies proposed to solve these problems are often ineffective or negative in their effect 112. Because models are an important element in gaining recognition and support for social and political issues, we must create a model for the sustainable development of the planet that is proper and complete, easily understood by everyone, and that will influence the decisions being made for the future of our planet. The World Peace Garden Project is a catalyst for world change. It provides the vision that can seize public appeal and inspire humanity to a common and noble cause. By mobilizing world wide effort and attention to make the model work a concerted effort can thus be catalyzed simultaneously to make the world work. Information, technologies, and technicians will be mobilized from around the world, bringing world wide effort and attention to a cooperative development process, that can fully develop the inherent potential resident in each of the different environmental types found on the planet. It is a whole systems approach to global problem solving, and the mechanism for mobilizing a global effort toward creating sustainability of the planet and eliminating poverty, hunger, illiteracy, war, and conflict. Models are used to increase understanding. "Often the incomplete (and sometimes distorted) pictures of models that two nations have of one another can lead them to war. Peace, rather than war, is most likely to prevail in an environment where all parties have realistic models of one another 112." Let us build A Working Model for World Peace, that will increase understanding among nations, and foster international cooperation and unity. FACILITATING THE EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY BETWEEN PARALLEL BIOREGIONS A disparity of basic human needs results when a local population lacks the knowledge of what could be utilized or developed within their own region. This gap between what is presently used, and what could potentially be developed and utilized, is reflected in food, housing, and energy shortages, medicine and health deficiencies, and an economic deficit. A planning strategy for the cross referencing of information, technology, and crop germplasm is emerging, based on the identification of areas sharing similar environmental features. A global pattern of regionally specific technological applications can be developed, from the consolidation of experiences derived from the global configuration of parallel bioregions, which share many of the same geographic conditions. This system of planning has far-reaching effects for moving improved technologies into new regions, applicable to meeting basic human needs, and implementing local economic development. 43,44,45,62 A bioregional planing methodology has been developed that can be used to discover and understand "the problems and potentials that similar regions throughout the world have experienced under similar physical conditions," "and the broad spectrum of experiences responding to this combination of resource conditions." This system of planing provides the means for obtaining "the most complete historical and up-to-date information available" on agriculture and forestry, renewable energy technologies, industrial development, housing and building materials, and food, medicinal, and industrial crops. 62 This planing method "derives from the simple fact that the world's ecosystems repeat themselves in patterns." A bioregional planing process begins by identifying regions of the world that share similar natural resource attributes, such as soils, climate, hydrology, and flora and fauna. These geographic systems have been "the basis for the development of indigenous technologies throughout the world for centuries," and regions sharing these same environmental features become natural allies for the sharing of experiences in dealing with their environment. By matching basic components of regionally developed technologies we can generate environmentally specific global technology patterns. Food and medicinal plants, craft plants and industrial crops, timber trees, and other plant species used for building materials can also be exchanged between similar bioregions. 43,44,62 The implications for using life forms as the primary basis for organizing sustainable development projects is enormous 44. Resource mapping classification systems, based around plant and animal species, have been developed within the sciences of biogeography and ecology that closely fit our needs for this purpose 43. They "show where similar plant and animal life appear," and "also becomes an indicator of similar patterns of soil, climate, hydrology, etc., subsystems 62." "With this in mind one can easily gain the awareness that your climate and an equivalent plant and animal association, soil and water conditions and other natural resource phenomena also exist in some other place or places in the world." 43 THE DEVELOPMENT OF A WORKING MODEL FOR THE PLANET FROM THE CONSOLIDATION OF INFORMATION AND TECHNOLOGY DERIVED FROM THE WORLD'S DIVERSE TROPICAL REGIONS Ecuador, a country of only 106,000 sq. miles (274,540 sq. km.) encompasses 25 of the earth's 30 life zones. A life zone is precisely defined by the ranges of the three major climatic factors: heat, precipitation, and moisture. Each life zone, comprising a definite range of climatic conditions, is found in widely separate regions of the planet. These climatic factors leave a definite mark on the natural vegetation, animal activities, and the cultural activities of man. "A life zone is not only a specific environment but also indicates a definite way of life." It is "correlated with a set of agricultural practices" and with "types of buildings related to the general agricultural land use." The agriculture, natural vegetation, and animal activities "serve clearly to indicate the life zone." 63 Ecuador's unique diversity of environmental regions can serve as a center to facilitate the exchange of information, technology, technicians, and crop germplasm between parallel bioregions in the highland and lowland tropics. Successful experiences from the world's diverse tropical regions can be brought together in Ecuador, into the appropriate ecological zones, for evaluation and demonstration, and to aid the advancement of this developing tropical country. This research can be conducted on existing farms and ranches, in urban and rural communities, at university research facilities, at government, non-government, and commercial research institutions, and within both large and small scale business enterprises. As an example, research in sustainable arid land agriculture, forestry, housing, and community and rural development can be conducted on tropic, subtropic, and temperate climate arid lands, encompassing numerous arid and simi-arid life zones, from a very dry coastal desert, situated next to an almost infinite supply of water, to barren windswept paramos, and dry forest and grasslands. Architects, engineers, agronomist, and technicians in many fields, from around the world, can come together in Ecuador, to introduce and demonstrate their appropriate technologies, and to study and acquire information and technologies applicable to their homeland; passing information, technologies, and crop germplasm back and fourth that has relevance for the intended user. Botanical gardens may also be established in each of Ecuador's climatic zones, modeling the ecologies of each parallel bioregion of the earth, that shares similar climatic features, with education and demonstration centers, exhibiting each bioregion's appropriate indigenous technologies, and useful native craft plants, industrial crops, timber species, food plants, and medicinal crops. Botanical gardens may also be established representing the 12 world centers of diversity for our food and economic crops. Computer databases and multimedia research facilities can be established, that would allow researchers to compare technologies worldwide, through a set of similar geographic subsystems, such as climate, soils, hydrology, surface geology, or flora and fauna. Computer databases can also incorporate sociological and economic factors, that can effect the applicability of new technology to a region 45. AN ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN SCIENCE REVOLUTION A working model for the sustainable development of the planet can demonstrate the potential of humanity to solve world problems through unity and cooperation and the sharing of knowledge, and can spark an environmental design science revolution that will lead us to peace and prosperity for all. Prototypes are extremely beneficial in identifying improvements to a system that can increase benefits 111. Design knowledge also expands very rapidly by the exchange of information. Even the mere rumor of an unfamiliar technique can spur new innovations 76. To be successful, models must allow modifications to adapt to different social, cultural, economic, and other conditions. "Recipients of a new body of knowledge or technique interrogate it on the basis of their own experience and knowledge of local conditions. In these instances, the initial transfer of technology itself is only the first stage in a larger process." "The experience, skill and inventive imagination which people contribute from their own cultural background is crucial." "When new technologies are introduced into a country, their success almost always depends on the local innovations which they stimulate. These are usually of an adaptive nature, and help to match the transferred technology to local conditions. Occasionally, however, radically new ideas emerge." 76 "Quite often the most important factor [in the development of technology] was that the achievements of one society stimulated people elsewhere to make different but related inventions." "The history of technology offers many examples of innovation resulting from interaction between different kinds of knowledge and techniques. Often, the transfer of technological knowledge or equipment from one country to another has initiated a process of modification and adaptation from which new and inventive ideas have emerged." "When people are already developing related techniques, their [interaction] with the new technology is likely to be especially creative." 76 ENVIRONMENT AND DEVELOPMENT Developing countries stand at a new threshold, and their experiences in meeting the challenges and opportunities of the future must be shared, particularly among countries with similar ecosystems. 113 "Technical cooperation among developing countries is linked with one of the major world environmental concerns, namely, the important interrelationships between environment and development 113." "The environment-development relationship has led to the concept of environmentally sustainable development. Such development can only be achieved through the development of environmentally sound and appropriate technologies 116." "One of the most fundamental problems confronting mankind at present is how to meet the basic needs and requirements of all people on earth without simultaneously destroying the resource base, that is the environment, from which ultimately these needs have to be met. Hence an understanding of the interrelationship between environment and development is absolutely essential for successful implementation of any strategy for the protection and management of the environment. Similarly, for development strategies to be sustainable over the long term, they must explicitly recognize the opportunities and constraints provided by the environment." 113 "It is through the development process that man acts upon and interacts with the natural environment. Water, air, soil, mineral, plant and animal life constitute the very resources which development itself seeks to exploit 113." Our basic life support categories are food, water, energy, waste disposal, building materials, clothing, and medicine, all of which depend upon our natural resource base. Many of these are based upon vegetable and animal resources: food, clothing, building materials, medicine, and energy. These vegetation and animal resources depend upon soils, surface geology, hydrology, and climate. Our other life support categories also depend upon these same resources: WATER: hydrology and climate; BUILDING MATERIALS: plants, soils, and surface geology (sand and gravel, stone masonry, minerals, clay, rammed earth, silica glass, etc.); and ENERGY: vegetation (fuelwood, fuel alcohol, other energy crops), animal (draft power, biogas, burning animal dung), hydrology (hydroelectric and mechanical water power), climate (solar, wind, and water power), and geology (geothermal and petroleum). Disposal of organic waste is relevant to energy (biogas production), plants (microbial digestion, fertilization), and geology (subsurface waste digestion and discharge). It's readily apparent that many of these resource categories are directly related. For instance water, energy, animals, organic waste, soils, surface geology, hydrology, and climate are all interconnected with food production. 43 "Environment and development problems are of a specific character, in different parts of the world 116." "Technologies reflect, in a sense grow, out of our indigenous resource base." The more that is known about a region and its resources, the more useful the technologies that can be developed. In the same sense these technologies are often not as useful outside of this region 43. "Failures in technology are most often failures in choices of technology 113." The most successful results in technical cooperation will be achieved between regions which share similar renewable resources, and common environmental conditions, such as: tropical climate, high altitude, arid lands, marine conditions, or island ecosystems 77. TECHNICAL COOPERATION AMONG DEVELOPING COUNTRIES "Developing countries have much to share with each other in terms of technological information, processes and expertise. What is needed is the stimulus to spur this cooperation and interchange and even bring to the surface this capability 70." Technology transfers include information, technical services, plans, patents, blueprints, operating manuals, engineering data, and training, as well as equipment, hardware, and turn-key plants. "One of the important factors inhibiting effective transfer of technology among the developing countries is the lack of information on each other's capabilities 114." "Quite often, the technology required to solve the problems of small enterprises are freely available in the world 70." A serious constraint to development is "the information gap about technologies, institutions, equipment, development approaches, [research and educational methods], institutional arrangements, or other relevant infrastructures which some developing countries have tested and firmly established 113." "There is an urgent need for greater exchange of information among the developing countries in respect to each other's capabilities and requirements." Information on appropriate, intermediate technologies, covering the complete range of existing technical possibilities, needs to be assembled and properly mobilized for use among developing countries, and an indigenous capacity is needed to apply well- known and readily available technology to overcome actual problems. "By effectively deploying a proportion of its own technological manpower for advisory work, a developing country can be technologically much more self-reliant than has hitherto been imagined 114." "Existing technical and scientific knowledge must be better mobilized and more effectively applied. What is necessary is to provide better services to move available technology to the field level, and to ensure that the steps taken provide sustained rather than short-term benefits 113." This can be achieved through the sharing of consultants between different countries; by sending personnel from one country to another for advanced training and acquisition of additional qualifications; through international seminars and conferences; and through the establishment of working models or pilot projects. 114 Seminars and conferences can ensure the exchange of information useful in promoting local research and development activity, and can help a country keep abreast of the latest technological developments, giving it an opportunity to evaluate them in their own context for making continuous improvements 114. Working models or pilot projects are a highly effective means of technical cooperation. This system of cooperative research and development would start with a study of the latest scientific and technical information available relevant to the project. Based on these studies a conference may be organized on the topic, open to experts from all parts of the world. Research is then conducted at pilot projects at cooperating organizations from different regions, according to an established, detailed research scheme. Training workshops for potential users of the technology would be organized at the experimental sites. And training in the construction and operation of the system would be given, based on printed reports from the research experiments. 115 Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com. FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:23:42 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: THE TRANSFER OF INDUSTRIAL TECHNOLOGIES Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE TRANSFER OF INDUSTRIAL TECHNOLOGIES BETWEEN REGIONS SHARING SIMILAR ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS AND NATURAL RESOURCE ENDOWMENTS With it's diversity of environmental, sociological, and economic regions, and it's need for technological development, Ecuador should become an important linkage in the research, development, and transfer of industrial technologies between developing tropical countries. In addition, plant species that are the source of chemical and industrial materials, pharmaceuticals, insecticides, building materials, varieties of food crops developed for the needs of food processing industries, and plants used in arts and crafts, may be brought into Ecuador's diverse climatic zones from all over the world, for cultivation, use, and evaluation. Chances of success in industrial research can be enhanced if technical cooperation is conducted between regions sharing similar environmental conditions and natural resource endowments 77. Cooperative research and development between developing countries should be structured around common objectives, such as utilization of similar raw materials and natural resources, renewable energy sources, agricultural equipment, food processing technologies, etc. 77 Research devoted to the development of production technologies which are environmentally and climatically specific to developing countries is more likely to generate technologies appropriate to the real needs of the country 117. Equipment and plants designed in developing countries are more suited to withstand the rigors of their climatic conditions 114. Electric motors adapted to tropical conditions is an example of a locally developed technology with considerable potential 117. Technologies adapted to the conditions of developing countries are often more appropriate for transfer to other developing countries due to the ability of equipment to operate in tough environmental and climatic conditions, and ability to use locally available inputs and raw materials, thereby requiring less reliance on imported resources 118. Using local materials decreases cost and provides more local employment, thereby enhancing the self-sufficiency of a region 43. When materials are not available locally it is best to manufacture them if possible, and to plant species of plants that are the source of needed industrial chemicals and materials. Industrial crops; food, medicinal and pharmaceutical plants; insecticidal plants; and timber trees and other plant species used for building materials can be exchanged between regions sharing similar environmental conditions. 43,44,45,62 Many developing countries have not had the economic ability to develop the technology needed to exploit their natural resources, while others have built up considerable knowledge and experience in technologies related to their natural resource endowments. These countries are at an advantage to export the technologies they've developed to other developing countries, but little advantage has been taken of transferring such headstarts in technological experiences, associated with exploiting natural resources in tropical countries. 118 Argentina and Brazil are two developing countries that have taken advantage of exporting their headstarts in technological developments associated with their natural resources. "Argentina's [processing and manufacturing] plant exports in pharmaceuticals, chemicals, and food processing, embody technological adaptations related to natural resource endowments. Brazil's manufacturing plant exports consist largely of alcohol distilleries and charcoal based mini-steel plants, both of which reflect headstarts in experience related to exploiting its natural resource endowments." 119 Other examples in this category include: production of palm oil in Malaysia 118; production of paper from bagasse (waste fibers from sugar cane processing) in Cuba and Mexico 118; water desalination projects and textile technologies from India 119,77; paper, hydroelectric projects, and fuel-alcohol plants from Brazil 77,119; and food processing plants, glassmaking technology, paper manufacturing, hydroelectric projects, petroleum refining, and petrochemical plants from Mexico 119. Due to the high efficiency of solar technologies in the tropics, and ability to provide a safe and renewable source of energy, solar applications can make a special contribution to the modernization of developing countries. The potential for the creation of new markets for solar technologies in these countries is enormous, and offers a highly desirable area for the creation of new manufacturing industries in developing countries, for the local marketing and export of solar technologies. 74 Wild fruits, Brazil nuts, rubber, resins, essential oils, medicinal substances, rattan, fibers, woods, seeds, botanicals, flowers, and a wide variety of other products flow from tropical forest into commercial channels, contributing to the creation of many small industries. "These products are a small fraction of the potential sustainable yields of the tropical forest, a potential arising from their biological richness, only a fraction of which has been investigated __ let alone utilized." Although they receive little promotion or development attention, their aggregate value is substantial. Exports of such products from Indonesia reached $125 million per year by the early 1980s. Conservation of the tropical forest is essential to the sustainable, economic yield of these commodities. 47 "The abundance of vegetable growth in the damp tropics could create large, renewable [fuel] alcohol reserves to lengthen and finally replace dependence upon dwindling petroleum 74." Many other industrial chemicals and materials derived from petroleum and other chemical sources can also be replaced by materials derived from fast-growing trees and plants cultivated in the tropics. There is an almost endless list of industrial plants adapted to the tropics that can become the basis of industrial chemicals and supplies, which are renewable, and carry none of the health hazards found in many of industries' carbon-chlorine compounds. These materials can be transformed into basic industrial inputs, and then used for local manufacture and export 74. Plant species that are the source of chemical and industrial materials can be exchanged between regions sharing similar environmental conditions, and may be brought into Ecuador's diverse climatic zones from all over the world for, cultivation, use, and evaluation. CONSERVATION OF INDUSTRIAL CROP SPECIES The plants which are the source of these chemicals come particularly from the tropical jungles. Many underutilized plants of industrial importance derive from fragile arid regions. As developing countries continue to destroy these ecosystems, with the resultant extinction of species, many useful plants are lost forever before they can be discovered, tested, and cultivated. With their extinction the opportunity is lost to reap the fortunes from industries that these plant species could have created, and the benefits from the foods, medicines, chemicals, and materials these plants could provide 96. Conservation of species and natural habitats is therefore an important element to sustainable industrial and economic development in tropical countries. Scientists have analyzed in detail only 5,000 plant species 23. Many important industrial plants are known only to indigenous peoples, and are yet to be discovered by modern scientist. Ten percent of the world's flora is listed as endangered. At least 25,000 species are presently in need of protection 17. More than 60,000 species, one-fourth of the world's total, risk extinction in our lifetime 18,25. In the tropics a third of all species will possibly be extinct by the end of this century 6. Species of unknown value must be saved from extinction. Conservation in gene banks, nature preserves and botanical gardens is the only chance of survival for many of these species 6. Ecuador is an outstanding location for the establishment of an international center for the conservation of species and crop genetic resources. Botanical gardens can be established in Ecuador, in a multitude of climates, for the conservation of species from around the world, especially from the tropics and subtropics. A diversity of gardens may be established in each of Ecuador's 30 climatic zones modeling the ecologies of each parallel bioregion on the earth that shares similar climatic features, with education and demonstration centers exhibiting each bioregions appropriate indigenous technologies, and useful native craft plants, industrial crops, food plants, medicinal and pharmaceutical crops, timber species, and other plants that are the source of building materials. Botanical gardens may also be established representing the 12 world centers of diversity for our food and economic crops. Botanic gardens have long been involved in introducing economic plants to new regions and conserving their genetic diversity. The World Peace Garden can help establish important new crops in the Andean Bioregion, and introduce many promising but neglected South American native crops into other parts of the world. Botanical gardens can contribute to the future of agricultural productivity by conserving germplasm of many promising but underutilized and neglected food, medicinal, and industrial crops, and wild relatives of crops, which are used in plant breeding to impart resistance to pest, disease, drought, and to adapt crops to many other adverse environmental conditions. Since most crop plants were domesticated in the tropics and subtropics, botanic gardens in developing tropical countries can play a critically important role in the conservation of minor crops and wild relatives of our cultivated crops. 16 Botanic gardens can help maintain the genetic diversity of plants that cannot easily be preserved as frozen seeds, or in tissue culture. Seeds of many tropical plants do not remain viable long, or survive freezing. Tissue culture techniques do not work, or haven't been developed yet for many plants. Botanical gardens are important sites for the conservation of recalcitrant plants, that must be preserved as living specimens. 16 Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com. FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:34:25 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: new paper In-Reply-To: <000c01c0092a$d6b77e80$240517d8@computer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:38 AM 08/18/2000 -0400, you wrote: >Geodesic Artifacts... reports on my current doings and some new >visualizations. > > http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/artifacts > >- Dave Anderson http://w3.one.net/~monkey > Gorgeous and instructive, as always. I love the Live3D. Kirby PS: I notice you did some stuff with Quaternions and Java. Me too at: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/oopalgebra.html (includes applet). I've also moved them into a Python module (http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/numeracy1.html). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:32:21 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: ENVIRONMENTALLY SPECIFIC HOUSING, ARCHITECTURE AND BUILDING MATERIALS Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ENVIRONMENTALLY SPECIFIC HOUSING, ARCHITECTURE AND BUILDING MATERIALS Environmentally specific housing, architectural designs, building materials, construction techniques and technologies can be transferred from around the world into Ecuador, and researched and demonstrated in all major climatic types found in the tropical zone. Timber trees and other plant species that are the source of building materials and industrial chemicals (such as preservatives, pesticides, shellacs, varnishes, lacquers, and paints) may be brought into Ecuador for cultivation, use, and evaluation from regions all over the world. Housing should be "designed with due consideration for climate, proper use of materials, appropriate building technology, and passive environmental control methodology 65." "The form of dwellings can be adjusted to take advantage of the beneficial aspects of the climate, and to reduce the impact of unfavorable aspects 64." " The harsh effects of nature ...can be minimized by proper understanding of macro and microclimatic conditions, by careful overall planning, arrangement of interior space, by certain design details, by using suitable materials, and relating outdoor conditions in general to the necessary interior comfort conditions 65." The form, layout, orientation and scale of dwellings and dwelling-groups should be controlled in relation to the needs of the climatic zone 64. "The design of dwelling forms should not only be related to improvement of the internal environment, but also to the creation of comfortable conditions in the external spaces between and around buildings. This is particularly important in hot climates where outdoor spaces [serve many important functions]..." 64 Dwelling designs should reduce the need for heating and cooling devices as far as possible 64. Correct design will allow smaller capacity heating and cooling devices and reduce their operating time and expense 64. The basic concepts of climatic design and the elements of passive heating and cooling methodology in traditional architecture are applicable to most contemporary building types. In environmentally similar locations climate has influenced the adaptation of indigenous architecture much more than cultural influences 65. "The comparison of climatic data and the requirements for thermal comfort provides the basis for the selection of building form and building elements appropriate for the climate." Using this criteria it is possible "to determine zones in which certain requirements exist, and to determine the approximate boundaries where a change in the climate and a change in thermal comfort requirements should be reflected in changing building form or changed building elements 64." "A number of different classifications of climate zones have been developed by geographers. The common factor which they share is that they relate to vegetation zones, and in most cases the limits of these zones relates to specific changes in climate, in particular rainfall and temperature 64." "Vegetation, like well designed buildings, is related to the climatic conditions which exist over the whole year 64." "A comprehensive classification of climates in relation to building needs will be very complex." The minimum criteria for determining building design and thermal comfort will include rainfall, humidity, temperature, temperature range, and solar radiation. Recommendations on building design can be made according to the number of months when certain climatic indicators apply. 64 "Adoption of modern construction materials in many cases has led to a drop in environmental standards compared with that achieved by traditional construction 64." The adoption of new building materials and technologies can be cost prohibitive in developing countries. If they must be imported, they can contribute to foreign debt and balance of payment problems 64. It is desirable to use materials which contribute to durability, structural safety, fire protection, and hygienic standards 64. When a community is deficient in suitable building materials, it is best to set about manufacturing them locally, planting the appropriate plant species suitable for building and industrial materials, or finding substitutes. This will increase local self-sufficiency, and raise the communities standard of living and power of survival 66. Planting timber trees is especially important in the many regions where lack of building materials has resulted from heavy deforestation. There are many new materials which can be made locally using regional resources: bagasse building boards made from the waste fibers of the sugar refining process; insulative building panels made from wood chips and sawdust combined with cement; lightweight building blocks incorporating rice husks; insulating building blocks utilizing mesquite sawdust; coconut fiber and pine fiber for concrete type reinforcing applications; laterite clay cement and unfired laterite clay bricks; machine cut limestone blocks; locally manufactured silica glass; preservatives and paints derived from combinations of plant and mineral materials; a preservative called fout derived from pine tree species; resinous materials for shellacs, varnishes, lacquers, and paints derived from plants called Copals; and a safe insecticide derived from the Nim tree. These are just a few of the possibilities. 64,43,62 Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com. FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 11:40:23 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: RENEWABLE ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES FOR DEVELOPING COUNTRIES Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RENEWABLE ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES FOR DEVELOPING COUNTRIES Ecuador's natural resource attributes allows it to take special advantage of the entire spectrum of renewable energy technologies and resources: fuelwood, wind, hydro, solar, fuel alcohol, biogas, energy crops, geothermal, and others such as marine current generators. Today Ecuador is heavily dependent on petroleum exports for foreign exchange earnings, but shortly after the year 2000 Ecuador is expected to become a net importer of petroleum products. The application of renewable energy technologies and energy conservation measures is the only way to reverse this trend. There is a tremendous emphasis being placed today on identifying sources and technologies for increased use of locally available renewable or alternative energy 77. The type of energy needs and technologies in every community will be very much contingent on the geography and types of activities carried on in the area 69. Energy sector cooperation among developing countries may be promoted on the grounds of similar energy resource endowments, and the use or need for similar energy technologies and know-how 68,77. "There have been many cases of such cooperation, at both the regional and international level 68." "Commercial energy consumption has increased quite rapidly in developing countries during the last quarter century", with "developing countries remaining heavily dependent on petroleum sources 68." "A number of evaluations show that some renewable energy technologies can be more economic (and sometimes more reliable) than conventional technology options, even at crude oil prices below US $20 per barrel, if the right conditions are met 68." "Renewable energy sources, properly managed, can play a central role in accomplishing the economic and social objectives of energy self-sufficiency 69." Many international cooperation projects have been carried out to develop and promote renewable energy technologies, but commercial adoption and widespread diffusion of these technologies has been limited 68. "The experience gained from existing pilot demonstration projects would aid in evaluating the viability of the technology. For some [renewable energy] technologies the application is well proven and no further demonstrations are necessary 69." Insufficient information on proven technologies, and the underutilization of the results gained from research and development, have limited wider diffusion of these technologies. Efforts made by individual countries and through international cooperation will determine the long term impact of renewable energy on developing countries. 68 Modest amounts of energy provided by some simple alternative energy technologies, can make a substantial contribution to raising the standard of living for the rural poor in developing countries. THE PROBLEM OF FUEL WOOD "Fuelwood and charcoal, together with agricultural residues and animal wastes, represent the largest share among renewable sources of energy in terms of physical energy input 68." Over 2 billion people in developing countries depend on biomass energy to meet basic energy needs, such as cooking and heating 68. Large amounts are also used for agriculture, electrical generation, and both large and small-scale industry 67,68. Little work has been done to organize fuelwood production and consumption to take advantage of its potential sustainable utilization 69. "The majority of the population of the developing world lives in areas where fuelwood scarcity is acute 68." Scarcity of wood and charcoal is a problem throughout most of the Andean region 72. Consumption of biomass is greatly outstripping sustainable production. Heavy reliance on fuelwood collection for energy has resulted in deforestation, soil erosion, and desertification. As forest are destroyed and fuelwood becomes scarce, agricultural residues and animal waste are increasingly utilized as substitute fuels. This leads to further environmental degradation and soil depletion, as these substances are not returned to the land to maintain fertility. 68 Due to the high level of dependence of many developing countries on fuelwood, proper management of existing forest resources is essential 69. "About 50 million hectares [123.5 million acres] of trees would need to be planted in the developing world by the end of the century in order to bring about a better balance between supply and demand of fuelwood. This would require a five-fold increase over 1982 planting levels world-wide, and a fifteen-fold increase in Africa 68." Other plant materials can also be grown for fuel. Many will outproduce wood, and some have superior combustion characteristics 73. Up to 80 % of the basic energy needs of villagers in some developing countries is for cooking. "One half of the world's wood crop is burned as fuel, often in inefficient open fires or poorly designed stoves 69." "Despite the advances in efficiency [of wood stoves] that have been made in some countries, the use of open wood fires for cooking is still very common 69." "The inherent inefficiency of burning wood in this manner is cause of great concern 69." Improved stoves could save half of the wood normally used in open fires, theoretically putting natural growth ahead of the cutting rate. 71 Major successes in reducing fuelwood and charcoal usage have been achieved in small scale industries, such as pottery and brick firing, by replacing antiquated kilns and combustion chambers; by adopting correct methods of firing and cooling, based on scientifically correct data and procedures; and by implementing other improved production procedures that reduce product defects 70. As an example in the transfer of technologies between regions with similar environmental features, by researching brick making technologies in regions having laterite soils, one would discover a new brick making technology developed in Guyana, using this type of soil, that produces unfired bricks exceeding U.S. building codes by five times 62. The information on simple, low-cost, high efficiency wood stoves for space heating, that has been developed in North America, can be transferred to cool mountainous regions of the tropics. Some ancient designs of space heaters, such as the Japanese earthenware kamado, are also very efficient. 69 Biogas production and solar energy can also help resolve the fuelwood crisis. BIOGAS Biogas production is a simple and well proven technology at any scale, from home production to industrial units. Biogas technology produces both methane and fertilizer from human or animal waste. Vegetable matter may also be incorporated into the mixture. Methane is the principal constituent of natural gas, and may be used the same as natural gas, for cooking and home heating, to produce industrial heat, and to fuel automobiles. Biogas produces more energy than is produced by burning livestock manure for fuel, and the nutrient-rich sludge can be used to fertilize crops. A well managed biogas system offers an inexpensive, clean, efficient, and inexhaustible source of energy 67. SOLAR ENERGY IN THE TROPICS The sun is more intense in the tropics, because it shines directly overhead and doesn't filter through as much of the earth's atmosphere, as it does in higher latitudes. This effect is compounded substantially in tropical mountain highlands. Photovoltaic cells will thus generate more electricity in the tropics than in temperate latitudes. Other solar applications are also more effective in the tropics, and in cloudless arid regions. Other promising applications for solar energy in developing countries include agricultural dryers, solar food ovens, and solar water heaters. Solar technology as a source of industrial heat has a long history of use. Running an electric grid to remote areas can cost more than the electric generating technology. For this reason photovoltaic technology may be cost-effective for supplying electricity to remote homes and villages, where electrical needs are modest 67. Solar food ovens are surprisingly efficient, especially in the tropics, and even more so in arid regions where firewood scarcity is most acute. The use of solar ovens eliminates the need to gather fuel wood; a major time consuming task where shortages exist. Solar agricultural dryers and solar water heaters are other applications that can reduce the need for fuelwood or other fuels. Due to the high efficiency in the tropics, and ability to provide a safe and renewable source of energy, solar applications can make a special contribution to the modernization of developing countries. The potential for the creation of new markets for solar technologies in these countries is enormous. This offers a highly desirable area for the creation of new manufacturing industries in developing countries, for the local marketing and export of solar technologies. 74 WATER POWER Small-scale hydroelectric projects offer certain advantages "such as providing electricity in areas the electricity grid doesn't reach, and to implement the projects with locally available technical, industrial, and financial resources. They may, therefore, constitute a promising local energy development option for many developing countries." 68 Very small hydroelectric generators can be made from inexpensive automobile alternators or generators. One may also be built by modifying an electric water pump, and reversing the flow of water. These simple, homemade technologies can provide a viable means for producing small amounts of electricity for remote dwellings, farms, and small villages. These homemade generators would be suitable for basic energy needs such as lighting, educational radio and television, small scale grain grinding and agricultural processing, and other similar applications. Traditional use of water power can be greatly improved upon with new design engineering, for mechanical water pumping, grain grinding, sugar processing, and numerous other mechanical operations. Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com. FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 09:42:18 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Barnes=A0&=A0Noble.com_-_Used_Book_Search_Results?= Comments: cc: _DomeHomeList MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C008F8.993B8420" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C008F8.993B8420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 4 copies of _Paper Houses: Build a Livable, Enduring House of Paper_ by Sheppard, Roger, et al, are available ($23-$79) thru Barnes & Noble's used book service: http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/OopBooks/oopResultsTitle.asp?userid=25B1VTQ7R E&mscssid=7V9NH6XRKN659MPPJ71VDH1KAUCUBS67&keyword=geodesic&rstart=26&WID=77 59750 Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C008F8.993B8420 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="=?iso-8859-1?Q?Barnes=A0&=A0Noble.com_-_Used_Book_Search_Results.url?=" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="=?iso-8859-1?Q?Barnes=A0&=A0Noble.com_-_Used_Book_Search_Results.url?=" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://shop.barnesandnoble.com/OopBooks/oopResultsTitle.asp?use= rid=3D25B1VTQ7RE&mscssid=3D7V9NH6XRKN659MPPJ71VDH1KAUCUBS67&keyword=3Dgeo= desic&rstart=3D26&WID=3D7759750 [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://shop.barnesandnoble.com/OopBooks/oopResultsTitle.asp?userid=3D= 25B1VTQ7RE&mscssid=3D7V9NH6XRKN659MPPJ71VDH1KAUCUBS67&keyword=3Dgeodesic&= rstart=3D26&WID=3D7759750 Modified=3D40E0DFBB3209C001B6 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C008F8.993B8420-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:05:33 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: A WORKING MODEL FOR SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A WORKING MODEL FOR SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY IN THE HIGHLAND AND LOWLAND TROPICS OF ECUADOR SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT "[Ecuador] is a compendium of all climates of the Earth, so that its inhabitants may try all sorts of crop plants 38". Research in Ecuador should promote the many opportunities available for agriculture in the highland and lowland tropics. Information and technology developed in Ecuador's many diverse environmental zones can be shared with tropical regions all over the world. Ecuador is unsurpassed as a location for research in sustainable agriculture systems in the highland and lowland tropics, where studies can be conducted in a wide range of soil types and rainfall levels. Due to it's wide climate variability Ecuador is adaptable to the production of almost any of the worlds crops, and a diversity of tropic, subtropic, and temperate climate fruits, vegetables, and industrial crops are to be found growing there. With Ecuador's tropic, temperate, and arid climates, breeding and research can be conducted on heat tolerant, cold tolerant, and drought resistant fruit and vegetable crops. Through the cooperation of indigenous farmers and agriculture scientist, developing countries have the potential to generate their own agricultural revolution, based on new techniques adapted to local agro-ecological conditions. The greatest technical expertise of many cultures has been the survival technology they developed to cope with their especially demanding environments. While scientific knowledge of such things as photosynthesis and genetics has universal validity, methods of cultivation, irrigation, fertilization and other agricultural procedures must depend on the ecological particulars of local environments. As agriculture scientist have learned that western based agricultural technology destroys the productivity of arid lands and tropical ecosystems, more attention is being paid to local techniques, with active participation between local farmers and agricultural scientist 76. This fund of knowledge being gained worldwide, from this new association of modern science and indigenous knowledge can be brought together into Ecuador, to create a working model for sustainable agriculture in the tropics. Major gaps exist in the exchange of research information and techniques in agriculture and forestry, and the application of successful research to other areas. "Consideration of technology development and transfer merit inclusion in all agricultural and forestry projects." "When projects fail from an economic and ecological point of view, it is often due to the lack of such technology. Ideally, each project should use available technology, but should include a research component designed to test and validate such issues as land-clearing methods, choice of cropping or silviculture methods, species used, fertilization requirements, and crop- pasture-tree rotations. In addition, a strong technology transfer component is essential to training new settlers or local farmers in how to farm any new areas. 58 Agricultural research in the tropics should recognize the variety of habitats and species available for cultivation. No substantial exchange of tropical crops has taken place since colonial times (except for plantation crops such as coffee, sugar, rubber, and cocoa). Despite the potential, there is no systematic exchange or experimentation with acclimatization of tropical crops. "Until very recently, the payoffs from plant breeding of tropical crops has been small (except for rice and some plantation crops)." Selection of cultivars that offer potential for transfer throughout the humid tropics, and the establishment of facilities for the conservation of crop germplasm deserve high priority. Because most tropical countries do not have the resources to maintain the large programs needed to test the acclimatization of crops and carry out variety trials, emphasis should be placed on freer and more abundant interchange of research and materials. 58 The importance of agriculture in our world cannot be overstated. Agriculture sustains human society and culture. Without agricultural development there can be no peace, no freedom, and no human development. Sustainability can only be achieved by maintaining essential ecological processes and life support systems, preserving genetic diversity, and ensuring sustainable utilization of species and ecosystems. 75 Social, political, and economic resilience requires the adoption of ecologically sensitive technologies adapted to local agro-ecological conditions 75. Because nations with limited capital are the ones that can least afford to underutilize or degrade their natural ecosystems, accelerated development and implementation of sustainable agricultural and forestry systems is needed 58. "The larger the stock of natural capital, including working capital such as seed stocks and food security, the more likely it is that a poor agricultural country can withstand external shocks such as climatic variation and stresses such as international indebtedness." "In developing countries the man-made capital solution may not...[even] be feasible, given the need to secure cash and foreign exchange. Natural capital augmentation then becomes the only route to sustainability". 75 SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURAL DEVELOPMENT IN TROPICAL RAIN FOREST AND MOUNTAIN AND HILL COUNTRY It's estimated that due to rapid population growth, Ecuador will almost certainly be completely deforested in ten years 29. In developing tropical countries, rapid population growth is increasing the need for new subsistence agriculture land, and plantation acreage for export crops. Slash and burn agriculture, and deforestation to create new crop land from wilderness areas, is putting immense pressure on the environment. This practice is especially detrimental to tropical rain forest and mountain and hill country. Fertility is rapidly lost on these soils due to leaching of nutrients and soil erosion. As fertility is lost these lands are abandoned, and new lands are moved on to continually, creating a rapidly degrading environment. The development of ecologically sound sustainable agriculture systems for tropical rain forest and mountain and hill country, which dominate the Ecuadorian terrain, is imperative. SUSTAINABLE USE OF DRY LANDS In Ecuador, research in arid land agriculture, forestry, architecture, and sustainable community and rural development can be conducted on tropic, subtropic, and temperate climate arid lands, encompassing numerous dryland vegetation types; from a very dry coastal desert, situated next to an almost infinite supply of water, to barren windswept paramos, and dry forest and grasslands. A single botanical garden and international research center can be established in one location in Ecuador, encompassing tropic, subtropic, and temperate climate arid lands, for the conservation and study of desert flora and drought resistant plants from around the world. Many desert plants have been used by native people for generations, for food, medicine, and fiber. Almost all of the cactus family are endemic to the Americas. About 20 % of the world's population lives in vulnerable dry lands 21. As a result of the unsound use of lands, deserts are expanding worldwide, many new dry lands are being created, and the productivity of vast dryland regions is falling, spreading abject poverty and starvation 21,51,52. "The development of conservation strategies for the preservation of dryland species, and for the responsible human use and management of arid lands is probably the world's most pressing problem in [land] management 46." "Research to be conducted in the arid South American environment should be placed in a general framework whose purpose is to solve general problems in a global way." "Frequently, the research being accomplished refers to problems that have already been solved, or to those that easily could be solved, using the available scientific and technical knowledge." "With good organization and integration... [and the adoption of techniques] among homologous regions, it would be possible in a short period of time to reach results corresponding to the necessities of the area." 53 "In many dryland farming areas, population growth prohibits a return to the ecologically sustainable fallow or rotation system once used with success. The only alternative is to adopt new cropping systems that minimize erosion and that employ crop rotations, water [harvesting and] conservation techniques, animal manures, green manures, and where moisture permits, perhaps chemical fertilizers. Such sustainable dryland farming techniques have been developed and proven effective in Israel, Australia, the Soviet Union, the United States, and other countries. Their use could be enhanced if agricultural technologies and experiences were exchanged among developing countries __ a generally neglected form of technology transfer." With these new technologies "some now destitute [desert] areas could become breadbaskets." 51 Tree planting programs and forestry research is urgently needed nearly everywhere that dryland agriculture is practiced 51." A major cause of desertification is deforestation for fuel wood, charcoal production, and building materials, 51,52. Tree lined shelter belts reduce desiccation, prevent wind injury to crops, and reduce soil erosion 40. Shelter belts helped stabilize a system in the Great Plains of the United States, that once threatened to become a permanent dust bowl 51. Arid land productivity may be greatly enhanced through plant breeding. Few resources have been devoted to this in the past. The first step in genetic improvement is the selection and conservation of the optimum species. "Because a given species may have potential value in many other countries, it is preferable to arrange a single, coordinated program of exploration and evaluation 54." "The arid zones contain a wealth of biological treasures, and only recently has the scientific community come to realize the importance of the germplasm found there 55." "Many [desert] species are threatened by total extinction." There is thus extreme urgency for conservation of species in nature or in botanical gardens and other institutions. 54 "A great geographical irony places much of the world's drylands within easy reach of the sea." "The driest lands on earth are, in fact, stretches of narrow coastline washed by cold [ocean] currents on the eastern margins of several oceans", such as the coastal desert found in Peru and southern Ecuador. This makes the extraction of fresh water from seawater one of the primary goals of dryland technology 87. It's been estimated that greenhouses on only 1% of the 20,000 miles (32,260 km) of desert coast in the world could potentially produce enough vegetables to feed the entire world with irrigation water from solar powered desalinization plants. Many of the world's most hungry areas are in regions on or near coastal deserts 105. RESEARCH IN FORESTRY AND TREE CROPS In spite of the importance and potential of forestry research in Ecuador, private sector and governmental research is almost nil, and there is essentially no forestry extension service 84. Ecuador should be a primary center for research in tropical forestry and tree crops, where studies can be conducted in a multitude of climates: from tropical to frigid, and from desert to pluvial; with altitudes ranging from sea level to alpine. Appropriate cultivation practices for tree plantings are well established for a variety of conditions 58. Tree seed orchards should be established in many of Ecuador's climatic zones. Nurseries and tissue culture laboratories should be established for the propagation and distribution of plants and trees for reforestation, street and roadside plantings, beaches, public parks, commercial and home orchards, and public and private yards and gardens. Tree plantation and reforestation efforts are attractive development projects and will dramatically increase in the coming decades, but are frequently limited by shortages of seed and seedlings 58. "In one day you can plant enough [fruit and nut] trees to have sufficient food for the rest of your life 26." Out of the 30 crops which make up most of the world's food supply, ecologically sound perennial tree crops barely make the list at all 23. Ecologically sound perennial tree crops and agro-forestry (integration of trees with field crops) are key elements of sustainable agriculture. Tropical tree crops, which are naturally adapted to tropical soils and rainforest environments are the most appropriate and ecological food crops to produce on converted rainforest soils. Although central to the development of sustainable agriculture in the tropics, research on tropical tree crops is negligible. "Few activities can contribute more to the evolution of a sustainable society than planting trees 67." Trees provide food, fodder, fuel, timber, paper and are the source of many pharmaceutical and industrial chemicals and materials. Trees clean the air and provide oxygen, regulate climate, prevent erosion, and are an important part of the earth's water cycle. Some scientists claim it's necessary to conduct a world wide tree planting effort, similar in intensity to a mobilization for war, to halt erosion and desertification, and reduce atmospheric carbon dioxide and the greenhouse effect. Without such an effort they claim that many environmental problems of a catastrophic nature cannot be prevented from occurring in the future 24. The world's coast and beaches are a prime area for afforestation efforts. Plantings of disease resistant Dwarf Malayan coconuts and other salt resistant plants and trees, especially fruiting species, would make magnificent forested beaches. This would help buffer the wind coming in off the oceans and help protect the beaches from erosion. Research can be conducted in several different environmental zones, on Ecuador's 500 mile long tropical coast, to determine which species of trees and grasses are most enduring of winds and salt, and provide the most protection from erosion. RESEARCH IN URBAN AGRICULTURE AND FORESTRY In Ecuador, research in urban agriculture and forestry can be conducted in cities and towns having a diversity of social and economic conditions, with many varied environmental conditions, from the sea coast to the mountains and deserts. With increasing migration of people from rural areas to urban centers, and the growth of poor urban areas, emphasis is being placed upon urban agriculture and greater food self-sufficiency in cities. Even the largest, most densely populated cities could almost become food self-sufficient 105. Food can be grown in containers on rooftops, balconies, patios, in window boxes, back yards, vacant lots, and other urban areas. A number of methods have been devised to reduce the weight of the growing medium for rooftop gardens. Bean sprouts and other highly nutritious seed sprouts are easily grown in jars and trays in a kitchen, or commercially in bean sprout factories. It's estimated that all the protein needed to feed the world could be produced from 8,300 bean sprout factories of the same design and size as the La Choy Food Company's bean sprout factory 105. Trees and plants provide cooling shade and make our cities more beautiful and pleasant to live in. Trees also help reduce air pollution in our cities by consuming carbon dioxide from automobile emissions. Due to air pollution and an often restricted root system, trees planted in cities and urban areas usually have a short life span. Research in urban forestry is an important area requiring research. Studies must be conducted to determine which tree species are best adapted to the adverse conditions of city environments. Other aspects that must be evaluated for urban tree plantings include growth rate, canopy cover, canopy quality, leaf litter problems, wind tolerance, insect and disease resistance, site requirements, noxious properties, and environmental impact. Root systems must be free of damage to pavement, sidewalks, plumbing, and building foundations. Pruning and maintenance requirements should be moderate, limbs and tree trunks should resist wind breakage, and trees must not spread invasively by seeds or shoots. 36 CONSERVATION AND SUSTAINABLE USE OF TROPICAL RAIN FOREST Deforestation in Ecuador is occurring at the rate of 340,000 hectares (839,800 acres) annually 7,47. Due to rapid population growth, it's estimated that Ecuador will almost certainly be completely deforested in ten years 8,29. "Virtually nothing has been done to reverse deforestation in Ecuador's humid lowlands 84." "Tropical deforestation is the major threat to biological diversity in Ecuador 84." "Rules of land tenure in many countries confer title to forest land on parties who 'improve' it by clearing the forest for some other use 47." In Ecuador undisturbed forest is, by definition, unproductive, and made freely available for "development" 48,49, but before title is given at least half the land must be cleared 84. This policy forces indigenous forest dwellers to clear their land, to keep encroaching colonist from doing so and claiming title to their land 84. One way of saving the tropical rainforest is to work with governments to develop land use planning surveys, based on the sustainable economical use of the land. The economic criterion for efficient forest management is that land areas should be devoted to the uses that yield the greatest potential economic benefits. "Applying the efficiency criterion means that land most valuable as a watershed protection forest would not be converted to crops [or] a forest most valuable as a recreational park would not be harvested for timber... Government policies frequently ignore this criterion for efficient resource use 47." Wild fruits, Brazil nuts, rubber, resins, essential oils, medicinal substances, rattan, fibers, woods, seeds, botanicals, flowers, and a wide variety of other products flow from tropical forest into commercial channels. Although they receive little promotion or development attention, their aggregate value is substantial. Exports of such products from Indonesia reached $125 million per year by the early 1980s. Tropical forest also contribute countless insecticidal and pharmaceutical chemicals, disease and pest resistant genetic material for plant breeders, and important new food crops. "These products are a small fraction of the potential sustainable yields of the tropical forest, a potential arising from their biological richness, only a fraction of which has been investigated __ let alone utilized." 47 Tropical rain forest are a primary focus of nature tourism, which is a $19.5 billion annual business, and is increasing at the rate of 30 percent annually 39. Tourism is one of Ecuador's most important sources of foreign exchange earnings 41. The Amazon Basin and other natural sites are Ecuador's major attraction 41. In a world of diminishing natural resources, to conserve Ecuador as a treasure house of biological diversity, for all the world to come and see and to appreciate, is a wise and valuable investment with permanent economic return. Small portable sawmills, with the right management plan and training, offer a viable sustainable alternative to large scale clear-cutting by industrial logging interest. Though the immediate financial returns are not as great as what the logging companies offer, royalty payments for cut lumber is greater than for cut logs, and production is sustainable over time. The economic potential of the other forest commodities can still be developed, the integrity of nature is preserved, and native forest people are not forced to relocate, preserving their heritage and knowledge of the land. With the financial incentives being offered by logging interest, the destruction of the rainforest, in many cases can only be prevented by providing the indigenous land-owning communities with portable sawmills, that enable them to carefully log a small part of their forest at a time. With portable saw mills timber cleared for gardens and plantations can be cut and sold. 50 PROTECTING NATURE PRESERVES FROM COLONIZATION National parks and refuges throughout Latin America are under constant threat of invasion by new settlers 49. "Ecuador has a well planned National Park system on paper, but has had little success in keeping settlers from invading its parks once they become accessible from the.. expanding road system 29." No effective means of control or delineation has been discovered yet 49. In 1987, the Ecuadorian Government declared an area of 130,000 hectares (321,100 acres) as an "Ethnic Forest Reserve," in recognition of the Awa Indians land claim. One hundred thousand hectares (247,000 acres) was later added as a buffer zone. The Awa Indians have cleared a 250 kilometer (155 mile) strip of land, 15 to 30 meters wide (50 to 100 ft.), to delineate their forest reserve. The Awa, working with the Rainforest Information Center, is planting the strip with native fruit and forestry trees, easily distinguished from the surrounding vegetation. Sustainable forestry and land use designs are being developed, and education programs implemented, to help stabilize agriculture in the surrounding region, and prevent land degradation, which increases colonization pressures. This is the first attempt to surround undamaged rainforest with an ecological barrier, and is a model project for the protection of pristine rainforest and tribal populations in other regions. 49 AN INTERNATIONAL RESEARCH INSTITUTE FOR TROPICAL AND SUBTROPICAL FRUITS Ecuador would be an excellent location to establish the center of an important new international research institute for the study of breeding, culture, and propagation, and shipping, processing, and marketing of tropical and subtropical fruits. "No really international body for research into tropical fruits has so far been founded, yet there is a great need for one. It could do for fruits what International Rice Research Institute (IRRI) has done for rice, or Centro Internacional de Agricultura Tropical (CIAT) for cassava 28." "Many tropical American fruits have not diffused to tropical Asia and Africa; the converse is also true. Hence, development agencies should develop and support a worldwide network for studying, acclimating, and distributing [tropical] fruit crops 58." North-western Amazonia is the richest area of diversity for tropical fruit germplasm in South America 82,83. Ecuador produces a diversity of commercial fruit crops, from tropical papayas in the lowlands, to temperate apples in the highlands. With Ecuador's tropical and temperate climates breeding and research can be conducted on both low-chill temperate climate fruit crops and cold-tolerant tropical fruits. Production of low-chill peaches, apples, pears and other temperate crops in the tropical highlands has received much attention in recent years, and further research is needed. Ecologically sound perennial tree crops and agro-forestry (integration of trees with field crops) are key elements of sustainable agriculture. Tropical tree crops, which are naturally adapted to tropical soils and rainforest environments are the most appropriate and ecological food crops to produce on converted rainforest soils. Although central to the development of sustainable agriculture in the tropics, research on tropical tree crops is negligible. There has never been more popular and scientific interest in tropical and subtropical fruits as there is now. Until recently the most authoritative reference work on tropical fruit culture was published in 1920 (Manual of Tropical and Subtropical Fruits by Wilson Popenoe). In the last few years numerous popular and technical publications have been published on the subject, indicating the new interest in tropical fruits, while new foods of all kinds from around the world are finding acceptance in world markets 3. The development of miniature or dwarf tropic and subtropic fruit trees, and dwarfing rootstocks, for dense plantings, is an important area requiring research. Dense plantings of compact trees offer higher yield per acre than full size trees which require wider spacing. Production cost are reduced with dwarf trees because pruning, spraying, and harvesting is faster and easier. Because energy for vegetative growth is converted to fruit set, dwarf and simi-dwarf fruit trees usually begin bearing at an earlier age, and often produce more fruit per tree than full size trees. Dwarf trees are sometimes so precocious and prolific that care is required to keep the weight of fruit from breaking the juvenile limbs of young trees. The development of high density planting systems for tropical fruit crops is necessary to increase yields and reduced production cost to be competitive in world agriculture markets. Dwarfing rootstocks can also help reduce the space requirements needed to conserve germplasm of tree crops, in germplasm repositories and seed and increase orchards. Adapting the photo period of temperate crops to the short day length of the tropics is an area for research. PREHISTORIC AGRICULTURAL TECHNOLOGIES IN THE SPACE AGE Traditional technologies have undergone a selection process over centuries of empirical testing, hence they are very likely to represent optimum solutions, for the particular conditions under which they were developed. It is quite possible that these traditional technologies can be improved and rendered useful if modern science and engineering is used to understand and clarify the rational core of these ancient practices. 113 Archaeologist have discovered many prehistoric agricultural technologies, developed by primitive cultures, under many varied environmental conditions around the globe. These primitive agricultural practices would make interesting educational displays in botanical gardens, representing the biogeographic regions where they were discovered. Some of these techniques have been found to be highly productive and efficient, and to have important applications in our modern world. For instance, about 3,000 years ago on the high planes of the Peruvian Andes, an ingenious form of agriculture employing platforms of soil, surrounded by ditches filled with water was developed. "Modern-day Peruvians working with archaeologist have reconstructed some of [these] ancient farms, and the results have been amazing. They have found, for instance, that this method can triple the yield of potatoes." "This prehistoric technology has proved so productive and inexpensive that it is seen as a possible alternative for much of the Third World where scarce resources and harsh local conditions have frustrated the advance of modern agriculture." "The combination of raised beds and canals has proved to have remarkably sophisticated environmental effects. For one thing, it reduces the impacts of extremes of moisture. During droughts, moisture from the canals ascends to the roots by capillarity, and during floods, the furrows drain away excess runoff. "For another, it reduces the impact of temperature extremes. Water in the canals absorbs the sun's heat by day and radiates it back at night, thereby keeping the air warm and helping protect crops against frost. On the raised beds, nighttime temperatures can be several degrees higher than in the surrounding region. "For a third, it maintains fertility in the soil. In the canals, silt, sediment, nitrogen-rich algae, and plant and animal remains decay into a nutrient rich muck. Seasonal accumulation can be dug out of the furrows and added to the raised beds, providing nutrients to the plants." 3 THE CONSERVATION AND STUDY OF "SUPER PLANTS" Of all the benefits plants can offer, perhaps the greatest is the potential to repair the damage we have already done to the earth. Plants are the first colonizers of damaged, hostile environments, from devastated wasteland to natural salt land and lava flow. A number of plants that will grow on toxic sites have been found. No matter how impoverished, imbalanced, or toxic a soil, plants will be found that will grow there, with leaves, root structure, and chemistry tailored to fit. 96 "The Australian government, working with private enterprise has been putting together a package of their most promising management techniques, technologies, and plants (some nearly indestructible) for dealing specifically with stabilizing and reversing the global desertification problem. They believe this will develop into a billion dollar annual export for them." 42 Due to the severity of the environmental crises facing the world today, it would be desirable to move swiftly towards developing a similar approach applicable to many other adverse environmental extremities. Gardens and research centers should be established to collect and study "super plants" capable of surviving in the adverse environmental conditions of a world gone wrong; from nuclear war, depleted ozone, global warming, acid rain, rising sea levels, eroded and depleted soils, drought, desert, air and water pollution, unwieldy weather conditions, and other man-made and natural environmental extremes; plants and trees that are heat and scorch resistant, able to thrive in acid or alkaline soils, resistant to pest and disease (which are said will increase due to global warming), fast growing plants and trees (that can consume high amounts of carbon dioxide to counter the greenhouse effect), salt and wind resistant coastal plants, fire resistant plants, extremely cold hardy plants, cold hardy and wind resistant high altitude plants, plants and microorganisms that fix heavy metals and toxic waste, and plants capable of surviving a combination of unpredictable adverse conditions. If we continue to degrade our environment, alter the climate, and destroy the atmospheric ozone, the availability of food crops and other useful plants capable of surviving under such unfavorable conditions could be critical in the future. Hardy plants adaptable to many environmental extremes will also be needed to establish life on Mars and the planets of other solar systems, as humanity outgrows its Earth home, and moves into space, spreading the miracle of life throughout the universe. The Americas are particularly rich in plants that are naturally adapted to extreme harsh conditions. Almost all of the cactus family are endemic to the Americas. Many desert plants have been used by native people for generations, for food, medicine, and fiber. A single botanical garden and international research center can be established in one location in Ecuador, encompassing tropic, subtropic, and temperate climate arid lands, for the conservation and study of desert flora and drought resistant plants from around the world. By bringing attention to the necessity of collecting and conducting research on such "super plants," further attention is brought to our environmental plight. As the public becomes more informed, it is hoped that people and nations will begin to take the steps necessary to live in harmony with the planet and to save our precious earth. AN INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR THE CONSERVATION OF CROP GENETIC RESOURCES Ecuador is an outstanding location for the establishment of an international center for the conservation of species and crop genetic resources. Botanical gardens can be established in Ecuador, in a multitude of climates, for the conservation of species from around the world, especially from the tropics and subtropics. A diversity of highly educational gardens may be established in each of Ecuador's 30 climatic zones modeling the ecologies of each parallel bioregion of the earth that shares similar climatic features, with education and demonstration centers exhibiting each bioregions appropriate indigenous technologies, and useful native craft plants, industrial crops, timber species, food plants, and medicinal crops. Botanical gardens may also be established representing the 12 world centers of diversity for our food and economic crops. Botanic gardens have long been involved in introducing economic plants to new regions and conserving their genetic diversity. The World Peace Garden can help establish important new crops in the Andean Bioregion, and introduce many promising but neglected South American native crops into other parts of the world. Botanical gardens can contribute to the future of agricultural productivity by conserving germplasm of many promising but underutilized and neglected food, medicinal, and industrial crops, and wild relatives of crops, which are used in plant breeding to impart resistance to pest, disease, drought, and to adapt crops to many other adverse environmental conditions. Since most crop plants were domesticated in the tropics and subtropics, botanic gardens in developing tropical countries can play a critically important role in the conservation of minor crops and wild relatives of our cultivated crops. 16 Botanic gardens can help maintain the genetic diversity of plants that cannot easily be preserved as frozen seeds, or in tissue culture. Seeds of many tropical plants do not remain viable long, or survive freezing. Tissue culture techniques do not work, or haven't been developed yet for many plants. Botanical gardens are important sites for the conservation of recalcitrant plants, that must be preserved as living specimens. 16 A FROZEN UNDERGROUND SEED BANK A seed banks may be located in a frozen underground cavern, in the frigid high mountains of Ecuador, to prolong the storage life of orthodox seeds, and to store frozen embryos of recalcitrant germplasm. Cooling would be provided at reduced cost by nature. Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com. FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:22:48 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: THE WORLD PEACE GARDEN Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE WORLD PEACE GARDEN AN INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR THE CONSERVATION OF THE EARTH'S RARE AND ENDANGERED FLORA AND FAUNA AND CROP GENETIC RESOURCES INTRODUCTION Ecuador is at the center of the richest botanical diversity on the planet and is adaptable to the culture of almost any of the world's flora, yet there is no botanical garden of major importance located in Ecuador. As a model biosphere of the earth and world center of diversity, located on the equator, at the geographic center of the planet, Ecuador is ideally situated for a world class botanical garden, representing the diversity of our planet, and an international site of learning about life. As the whole world now focuses intently upon the destruction of the environment, and efforts to regreen the earth and conserve our biological heritage, Ecuador, with its unique diversity of climate, topography, soils, and natural biological diversity, offers the opportunity for the establishment of an important new international center for the conservation of the earth's living resources. The World Peace Garden will provide a center of interest for citizens of the whole world for this and future generations to come. It is a gift to all people of all nations for a wholesome future. The World Peace Garden is a legacy of life for future generations. It is a devotion to the growth of Peace on Earth. AN INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR THE CONSERVATION OF SPECIES Botanical and zoological parks and gardens can be established in Ecuador, in a multitude of climates, from tropical to frigid, and from desert to pluvial, for the conservation of species and crop genetic resources from around the world, especially from the highland and lowland tropics and subtropics. To demonstrate the fundamental principals of ecology, a diversity of gardens may be established in each of Ecuador's 30 climatic zones, modeling the ecologies of each parallel bioregion of the earth, that shares similar climatic features, with education and demonstration centers, exhibiting each bioregions appropriate indigenous technologies, and useful native craft plants, industrial crops, timber species, food plants, and medicinal crops. A WORLD CLASS GARDEN OF THE WORLD MODELED ON THE 35 FLORISTIC REGIONS OF THE WORLD AND THE 12 WORLD CENTERS OF DIVERSITY FOR OUR FOOD AND ECONOMIC CROPS Thirty-five floristic regions have been distinguished on the planet, each region having high amounts of species and generic endemism, and sometimes endemic taxa of higher rank up to families and orders. These regions have been subdivided into 153 provinces with species and generic endemism, but of a lower frequency. These may be further divided into districts and subdistricts. The distinguishing feature of floristic regions is the presence of endemic taxa found no where else in the world. 12 Most of our food and economic crops derive from 12 major regions on the planet, called centers of diversity 23. These centers of diversity are located mainly in the tropics and subtropics, and generally in mountainous regions 11. The Andean region of Ecuador, Peru, and Bolivia is one of these centers of crop diversity. These centers of diversity show where a crop species originated, or where it has a long history of cultivation and use. This information is relevant to crop breeders and conservationist, because it indicates areas where the highest diversity of genetic material for that crop may be located for plant breeding purposes, and also indicates regions where many important new crops used only by native people may be found. 23 The floristic regions of the world and centers of crop diversity are genetic maps of great importance, that become the theoretical basis for the conservation of the earth's plant species and crop genetic resources. 12,23 Botanical gardens should arrange plants in a way to demonstrate the fundamental principles of ecology and the dependence of man on plants 6. The 35 floristic regions of the world, and 12 world centers of diversity for our food and economic crops, offers the basis for two highly educational planting arrangements in a botanical garden, and a blueprint for the design of a world class Garden of the World and true Model Biosphere of The Earth. "In [mountainous] tropical regions, to ascend from the low lands to the perpetual snows you cross, in an abbreviated form, a series of biological conditions equivalent to a trip from the equator, at sea level, to one of the poles 1." As climate varies by altitude a world class botanical garden, modeled on the floristic regions of the world and 12 world centers of diversity for our food and economic crops, may be designed and incorporated into a mountain valley in Ecuador, for the collection of tropic, subtropic, and temperate climate specimens from around the world. As you ascend from the valley floor you move from tropical gardens to subtropical gardens. At around 6000 feet (1830 m) you enter temperate flora, and at about 10,000 feet (3050 m) you reach cool-temperate flora. THE WORLD PEACE GARDEN: A SYMBOL OF UNITY AND DIVERSITY In Ecuador's diverse climate, cultures from every country, and from every floristic region of the world, can come together in an international spirit of cooperation and ethnic pride, to build a Garden of the World, and a symbol of unity and diversity. Scientists, students, conservation organizations, religious organizations, and citizens world wide can build Peace Gardens, representing their religious traditions, together with their contribution to the cultural and biological heritage of humanity: their flora and fauna, ethnic food crops, medicinal plants, ornamentals, craft plants, and industrial crops; their agriculture, architecture, and garden styles; their arts and crafts; and their environmentally sound science and technology. In each garden, representing different areas of the world, restaurants, ethnic food markets, craft shops, cultural shows, and environmental exhibits may be established for tourist, reflecting the distinctive nature of these diverse regions of our planet. WHY THE WORLD PEACE GARDEN IS NECESSARY The World Peace Garden should be a place where people can learn the importance of our biological heritage and crop genetic resources to the survival and development of human society and culture. The World Peace Garden can educate people about the many environmental concerns confronting humanity as well as demonstrate solutions to these problems. Ten percent of the world's flora is listed as endangered. At least 25,000 species are presently in need of protection 17. More than 60,000 species, one-fourth of the world's total, risk extinction in our lifetime 18,25. In the tropics a third of all species will possibly be extinct by the end of this century 6. Scientists have analyzed in detail only 5,000 plant species 23. Species of unknown value must be saved from extinction. Conservation in gene banks, nature preserves and botanical gardens is the only chance of survival for many of these species 6. "The age of truly wild animals is nearly over. Unprecedented numbers of mammals, birds, reptiles, and amphibians are becoming extinct. Nearly 900 species and subspecies of animals are severely threatened; hundreds more require the protection of humans if they are to survive 27." "Plants are our prime life support system, having fed the world and cured its ills since time began. Loss in biological diversity due to shrinking of plant gene pools is one of the most pressing threats to human welfare 22." Plant breeders have generated billions of dollars by breeding genes from nature into modern crop plants that produce prodigious increases in yields. In the U.S. alone germplasm is credited for $1 billion annually in increased crop productivity. The germplasm used by plant breeders is responsible for half, in some cases considerably more, of the impressive increases in crop yields. For millions of people these increased yields have meant the difference between survival and starvation. 23 Farmers world-wide have replaced native varieties with the new high yielding cultivars. Wild relatives of our crops are being lost to environmental degradation in their natural habitats. These primitive land races and wild relatives that are being lost contain the genes that make the plant breeders efforts so successful. 23 Agriculture sustains human society and culture. Agriculture must meet the needs of a growing population. To keep agriculture healthy and dynamic, farmers everywhere need plenty of options 3. A broad based germplasm inventory is necessary to increase yields and adapt crops to pest, disease, future climate changes, and many other adverse environmental conditions. Without agricultural development there can be no peace, no freedom, and no human development. The conservation of living resources is the basis for sustainable development. Our biological heritage and crop genetic resources are undoubtedly the most valuable natural resources available to us for building peace and prosperity for humanity. Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com. FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:27:47 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: THE FUNCTION OF BOTANICAL GARDENS Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit THE FUNCTION OF BOTANICAL GARDENS The general public may not always have a clear understanding of botanical gardens or their function. A botanical gardens recreational value, often high, stands subordinate to botanical research and instruction 15. Traditionally botanical gardens have worked in a broad range of concerns including: plant exploration, reforestation, establishment of nature preserves, agricultural research, publishing, and original research in botany 6,15,16, but most important is conservation and education 6. "The tropical and subtropical botanic gardens of South America should be important centers for research and education, and should play a very important role in the exploration and search for promising plants, in the recognition and conservation of species in danger of extinction, and in the establishment of reserves and protected areas 6." Some botanic gardens in developing countries, such as the Bogor Botanic Gardens in Java and the Singapore Botanic Gardens in Malaysia, have well rounded programs that include plant breeding and propagation, ongoing research in plant biology and taxonomy, educational displays, and training courses. "Botanic Gardens in China serve four main functions which can profitably be adopted by other gardens, particularly in developing countries. First, they provide new plants of economic importance to society, including medicinals, ornamentals, trees for reforestation, plants for industry, fruits, and cash crops. Second, they collect and keep plants for study of growth, adaptability, and economic and genetic characteristics. Third, they disseminate cultural and scientific information about plants to the general public. And fourth, they collect and maintain endangered and rare plants and investigate methods of conservation in natural habitats 16." One way of promoting botanical gardens in Ecuador, and other developing countries, is by means of establishing bilateral or multilateral agreements with botanical gardens of other regions of the world for training of personnel, exchange of information, and research support 6. In 1987, the International Union for Conservation of Nature and Natural Resources (IUCN), established the Botanic Gardens Conservation Secretariat (BGCS). The purpose of the BGCS is "to encourage the botanical gardens and arboreta of the world to work together as a global network for conservation." Another purpose of the BGCS is to help establish botanical gardens in developing tropical countries, where the richest botanical diversity resides, and having the most need for conservation efforts, but where the fewest gardens are located. Most botanical gardens are located in the temperate, industrialized countries. Herbariums are collections of dried plants, some of which were collected alive, but have since become extinct. Seed banks often preserve seeds in cryogenic storage labs designed to preserve seeds for up to 100 years or longer, before having to regenerate them by growing them out. But botanical gardens conserve collections of living green plants. Botanical gardens can help maintain the genetic diversity of plants that cannot easily be preserved as frozen seeds, or in tissue culture. Seeds of many tropical fruit and timber trees do not remain viable long, or survive freezing. Tissue culture techniques do not work, or haven't been developed yet for some plants. Botanical gardens are important sites for the conservation of recalcitrant plants, that must be preserved as living specimens. 16 In 1981, the New York Botanic Garden established the Institute of Economic Botany to investigate underutilized plants with economic potential in the tropics. Botanic gardens have long been involved in introducing economic plants to new regions and conserving their genetic diversity 16. Botanic gardens can contribute to the future of agricultural productivity through the conservation and distribution of the many promising but underutilized and neglected food, medicinal, and industrial crops, and wild relatives of crops, which are used in plant breeding to impart resistance to drought, pest and diseases and to adapt crops to other adverse environmental conditions. Kew Gardens seed bank in England receives material of wild relatives from collecting missions supported by the International Bureau of Plant Genetic Resource (IBPGR), an agency of the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO). Since most of our crops were domesticated in the tropics and subtropics, gardens in developing tropical countries can play an important role in the conservation of minor crops and the germplasm of wild relatives of our cultivated crops. 16 "Several botanic gardens have taken the initiative in conserving the genetic diversity of certain tree crops. The Calcutta Botanic Gardens and the botanic garden of the University of Malaysia in Kuala Lumpur maintain germplasm collections of cultivated citrus species and their near relatives 16" The Fairchild Tropical Garden in Miami, with over 150 species of tropical fruit and tree crops, has recently established the Fairchild Gardens Tropical Fruit Program, with the purpose of distributing high yielding cultivars of tropical fruit trees to developing tropical countries. The Kahanu Garden on Mauai maintains collections of breadfruit and coconut. The Pacific Tropical Botanical Garden at Lawai, Kauai, has collections of fruit trees important to subsistence agriculture and commerce in tropical countries, and the Lyon Arboretum of the University of Hawaii in Honolulu maintains 112 taxa of economic plants 16. Java's Bogor Botanic Garden established the Cibinong satellite garden, in 1980, to propagate tropical fruit trees for the national agricultural extension service. The 40 hectare garden maintains small collections of many local fruiting species, and is projected to grow to 150 hectares to accommodate more. "In 1982, the Bogor Botanical Garden negotiated an accord with the Central Institute for the Development of Science and Technology." Bogor landscaped the institute's new 350 hectare science city complex at Serpong with indigenous plants, and Bogor was given a substantial new area for conservation of fruit and spice germplasm. "Chemical analysis of the fruit will be conducted in laboratories at Serpong." 16 The Singapore Botanic Gardens has provided many of the trees and shrubs for Singapore's Garden City Program. Singapore is today one of the world's most aesthetically pleasing cities with numerous tree lined avenues and highways. Over four million trees have been supplied to the Parks and recreation Department since 1970. Singapore Gardens is now propagating native fruits for planting in parks and along roads so that citizens can enjoy both shade and food. 16 In Hawaii, the Wahiawi Botanic Garden is occupied by rapidly disappearing wild species from the mountains of Central America. The Ho`omaluhia garden contains endangered species from forest of Malaysia, Melanesia, Hawaii, and Africa. 16 A computer database developed by the Botanic Gardens Conservation Secretariat has located more than 6,000 endangered plants in botanical gardens, including several previously thought to be extinct 14. The toromiro, Easter Islands only tree, previously thought to be extinct, has been found growing in a botanical garden 96. In November, 1988 the botanic garden at Brest, France used the last two surviving specimens of Ruizia cordata, which had become extinct in the wild, to reestablish the plant in it's native home, on Reunion Island in the Indian Ocean 14. Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 12:46:16 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: PHYLOGENETIC CONSERVATION GARDENS Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PHYLOGENETIC CONSERVATION GARDENS: FAMILY TREES FOR THE PLANT "KINDOM" Botanical gardens should arrange plants in a way to demonstrate the fundamental principles of ecology and the dependence of man on plants 6. Phylogenetic gardens provide and outstanding method of doing this. Phylogenetic gardens are family trees for plants, designed as gardening beds, laid out in a way that lets you see the relationship that exist between closely related kinds. Phylogenetic garden arrangements demonstrate the diversity of the plant gene pool, and allow us to see the work of evolutionary change in the origins of our living plants 13. Since there are 10 major divisions of plants, one can make a tiny garden with one member of each of these. In the right layout, this is a primary phylogenetic learning garden for the plant kingdom 9. A PHYLOGENETIC STRUCTURE FOR THE PLANT KINGDOM Phylogenetic gardening layouts derive from the mapping techniques of Rolf Dahlgren's new taxonomy of the angiosperms. A phylogenetic garden for the plant kingdom (see illustration) illustrates the 40 major groups of plants distributed into 10 divisions. The 10th division is our most recently evolved flora, the flowering plants, or angiosperms. According to the revised taxonomy of Rolf Dahlgren, the angiosperms subdivide into 36 superorders. The 36 superorders are built from 106 orders, which in turn are composed of 540 families. A garden planted with representatives of each of the families, in the right format, is a phylogenetic garden. Phylogenetic gardens arranged according to this system can be built for each of the superorders, orders, families, genera, for single species, and for individual varieties. A composition of gardens featuring the diversity of each grouping becomes an important gene-pool resource and treasure for future generations 13. MAPPING THE 10,000 GENERATION HUMAN INTERACTION WITH PLANTS Specific phylogenetic gardens can illustrate our human interaction with groups of plants. Phylogenetic gardens may be used to show the development of our latest hybrid varieties of domesticated crops, traced back to varieties grown by our forefathers, and wild relatives which may have been foraged by early hunters and gatherers. Used in this way phylogenetic gardens become living genealogies, mapping the 10,000 generation human interaction with plants, and a valuable gene pool resource 9. One can organize phylogenetic gardens that feature vegetables, medicinal plants, herbs, aromatic plants and flowers, fruits and berries, nuts, timber species, craft plants and industrial crops, forage plants, edible grains, or endangered species 9. Phylogenetic gardens may be developed representing the food and economic plants of the Andean bioregion, or any of the 12 world centers of diversity for our food and economic crops. A PHYLOGENETIC LAYOUT FOR THE PALMS OF THE WORLD DETAILED IN A VIEW FROM THEIR CENTER OF DIVERSITY IN ECUADOR The major planetary center of diversity for the Palm Superorder is northwestern South America. Examination of the thousands of palms finds them to group into 15 tribes and 38 subtribes. The phylogenetic map developed for the palms of the world 9 illustrates whorls of genera made up of rings of species (see illustration). The area of each tribal circle is proportional to the number of species in the tribe. The tribes are clustered into six subfamilies. The smaller filled circles inside the tribal circles represent Ecuadorian genera and these circles are also proportional to their number of species. In this way, the Ecuadorian species of palms are referenced on the planetary background. To completely represent the palms of the world would require three gardens in appropriate climates: a warm humid climate, a warm dry climate, and a cool climate. A phylogenetic garden for the palms would make a beautiful display in any botanical garden. With the example of a phylogenetic garden for the palms, one can apply the same understanding to the other groups of economic plants that are native or important to Ecuador and the Andean bioregion: pineapple, bananas, potatoes, tomatoes, corn, amaranth, quinoa, beans, papaya, babaco, guava, squash, avocado, coffee, vanilla, cacao, cocaine, quinine, cotton, rubber, mahogany, tree tomato, and countless other major and minor food crops and ethnobotanicals -- all planted in layouts that demonstrate their kinship to related kinds. THE DEVELOPMENT OF PHYLOGENETIC GARDENING LAYOUTS Phylogenetic gardening layouts are being developed at Peace Seeds, an organic seed company and planetary gene pool resource, located in Corvallis, Oregon. Designating them as Coevolutionary Conservation Gardens and Kinship Gardens, Dr. Alan Kapuler is analyzing the world database of botanical information and developing phylogenetic garden layouts for each of the 40 major groups of plants. Phylogenetic databases and layouts have been developed and presented at Peace Seeds for a division (conifers), orders (aspargales and araliales), families (solanaceae, the grass family proaceae, and the asteraceae or daisies), a tribe (the heliantheae or sunflowers), and a coevolutionary layout and data base for the 106 orders of flowering plants. These databases are published in the annual Peace Seeds Research Journal (Peace Seeds, 2385 S.E. Thompson St., Corvallis, Oregon 97333 U.S.A.) Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:01:13 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: ADDITIONAL FEATURES OF THE WORLD PEACE GARDEN Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ADDITIONAL FEATURES OF THE WORLD PEACE GARDEN INCORPORATING PRINCIPLES OF MICROCLIMATOLOGY INTO A WORLD CLASS BOTANICAL GARDEN Factors other than temperature, such as humidity, must be considered when introducing flora into a garden, and no single location can be ideal for every type of flora without regulating the environment. To do this, landscaping incorporating principles of microclimatology may be designed to buffer and regulate the climate. For instance, pools of water and other water features, designed into a garden, can regulate humidity, and buffer temperature by absorbing heat in the day, and radiating it back at night. Windbreaks and tree lined shelter belts also regulate temperature and humidity. 40 Site selection, altitude, slope direction, air drainage, orientation to wind and sun, ground cover, vegetation, color, and many other factors all have an effect on climate, and these effects can be controlled 40. Utilizing principles of microclimatology many varied climates may be incorporated into a garden without the need for climatrons and conservatories, normally used by botanical gardens to house their exotic flora. DEMONSTRATING ALTERNATIVE TECHNOLOGIES IN A WORLD CLASS BOTANICAL GARDEN More than 150 million people a year visit botanical gardens around the world 14. A world class botanical garden would be an excellent place to showcase ecological architectural designs, sustainable agriculture and forestry practices, alternative energy systems, prehistoric agricultural technologies, environmental control through microclimatology, and many other ecologically sound technologies. In each garden representing the different biogeographic regions of our planet, education and demonstration centers may be established, exhibiting each bioregions appropriate indigenous technologies, and useful native craft plants, industrial crops, timber species, medicinal crops, and food plants. A WATER POWERED MOUNTAIN RAILWAY "[In England] the twin towns of Lynton and Lynmouth are linked by a cliff railway which uses water as its source of energy. At the top of the cliff railway, water is allowed to enter a huge tank on the bottom of the carriage. When passengers are all in ...the driver at the bottom allows water to escape from his carriage. The carriage at the top is now heavier and the top carriage starts to move down the rails. The two carriages are connected by a steel cable, therefore as the top carriage moves down the one at the bottom moves up. There is an ingenious governor system to control the speed at which the carriages move 32." Water powered transportation systems, similar to this one, can be devised to transport passengers up and down mountains at a ski resort, at a botanical garden situated in a mountain valley, and at other mountainous locations for many purposes. Copyright 1992, 2000 World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:15:29 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: BIOCLIMATIC REGIONS IN ECUADOR Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This table isn't going to translate into email, so I'm just listing the bioclimatic regions without the temperature, rainfall and altitude tables for each region. You should be able to get the idea. BIOCLIMATIC REGIONS IN ECUADOR Tropical Desert Tropical Sub-Desert Very Dry Tropical Dry Tropical Sub-Humid Tropical Humid Tropical Very Humid Tropical Very Dry Subtropical Dry Subtropical Sub-Humid Subtropical Humid Subtropical Very Humid Subtropical Rainy Subtropical Very Warm Temperate Sub-Humid Warm Temperate Humid Warm Temperate Very Humid Warm Temperate Rainy Warm Temperate Very Rainy Warm Temperate Sub-Humid Cool Temperate Humid Cool Temperate Very Humid Cool Temperate Rainy Cool Temperate Very Rainy Cool Temperate Pluvial Cool Temperate Humid Paramo Very Humid Paramo Rainy Paramo Very Rainy Paramo Very Humid Sub-Polar Rainy Sub-Polar Polar * Temperature and altitude varies by location. A tropical climate on the drier western slopes of the Andes ranges from 0 - 1000 feet, but on the humid eastern slopes 0 - 2000 feet. A subtropical climate on the western slopes ranges from 1000 - 6560 feet, but on the eastern slopes 2000 - 6560 feet. The equator runs through the northern end of the country. The Andes Mountains, running north and south through the center of the country, consist of two parallel chains 25 to 40 miles apart, with the inter-Andean valley between. Some of the high peaks are capped by glaciers. West of the Andes lies the Pacific Ocean 100 miles distant, where the cool waters of the Peru or Humboldt current flowing northward along the Pacific shore meets the warm, southward flowing El Nino current. East from the Andes is the Amazon Basin and the torrid zone. World Peace Garden Project and SpaceshipEarth.com FOR THE BENEFIT OF ALL HUMANITY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 13:33:22 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: LIFE ZONES OR PLANT FORMATIONS IN ECUADOR Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Keep in mind that the environment in Ecuador is very fragmented. These life-zones and bioclimatic regions are not singular regions. Almost all of them can be found scattered throughout Ecuador. This table isn't going to translate into email, so I'm just listing the life-zones without the altitude, temperature and precipitation. You should be able to get the idea. LIFE ZONES OR PLANT FORMATIONS IN ECUADOR Tropical Desert Tropical Desert Scrub Tropical Thorn Woodland Very Dry Tropical Forest Dry Tropical Forest Tropical Moist Forest Tropical Wet Forest Premontane Desert Scrub Premontane Thorn Woodland Premontane Dry Forest Premontane Moist Forest Premontane Wet Forest Premontane Rain Forest Lower Montane Thorn Steppe Lower Montane Dry Forest Lower Montane Moist Forest Lower Montane Wet Forest Lower Montane Rain Forest Montane Steppe (Dry Subparamo) Montane Moist Forest (Subparamo) Montane Wet Forest (Subparamo) Montane Rain Forest (Subparamo) Subalpine Moist Forest Subalpine Wet Forest Subalpine Rain Forest Alpine Wet Tundra Alpine Rain Tundra Nival Zone * Temperature and altitude varies by location. A tropical climate on the drier western slopes of the Andes ranges from 0 - 1000 feet, but on the humid eastern slopes 0 - 2000 feet. A subtropical climate on the western slopes ranges from 1000 - 6560 feet, but on the eastern slopes 2000 - 6560 feet. The equator runs through the northern end of the country. The Andes Mountains, running north and south through the center of the country, consist of two parallel chains 25 to 40 miles apart, with the inter-Andean valley between. Some of the high peaks are capped by glaciers. West of the Andes lies the Pacific Ocean 100 miles distant, where the cool waters of the Peru or Humboldt current flowing northward along the Pacific shore meets the warm, southward flowing El Nino current. East from the Andes is the Amazon Basin and the torrid zone. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 17:17:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dayton Labs Subject: Re: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Barnes=A0=26=A0Noble=2Ecom?= - Used Book Search Results MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try bibliofind.com - They can probably find you a better price. Dave Joe S Moore wrote: > 4 copies of _Paper Houses: Build a Livable, Enduring House of Paper_ by > Sheppard, Roger, et al, are available ($23-$79) thru Barnes & Noble's used > book service: > > http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/OopBooks/oopResultsTitle.asp?userid=25B1VTQ7R > E&mscssid=7V9NH6XRKN659MPPJ71VDH1KAUCUBS67&keyword=geodesic&rstart=26&WID=77 > 59750 > > Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Name: Barnes & Noble.com - Used Book Search Results.url > Barnes & Noble.com - Used Book Search Results.url Type: Internet Shortcut (application/x-unknown-content-type-InternetShortcut) > Encoding: quoted-printable ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 18:54:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Barnes&Noble.com - Used Book Search Results Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas, See http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/IcosDomePaperboard.htm and http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Biblio/ByBFitinerary-1965.htm and http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Biblio/ByBFitinerary-1966.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "The DomeHome List" To: Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 10:41 AM Subject: Re: Barnes&Noble.com - Used Book Search Results > Date: 08/18 10:48 PM > From: Thomas Tremblay, tt126@hotmail.com > > How does one build a house out of paper? Do you mean using paper as > insulation with some sort of fire retardant spray applied? > I wonder if one could make panels for a geodesic structure out of > paper that look like real wood panels... > ________________________________________________________________________ > o > ===== The DomeHome Email List > ========== Web: http://www.domegroup.org > ============= Send posts to: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com > =============== To unsubscribe, write: unsubscribe DomeHome-H > ================ and send to this address: requests@h19.hoflin.com > > ** subscribe/unsubscribe to this list (under DOG LISTS) and subscribe to > DOME at http://www.hoflin.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 21:29:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Paper houses Comments: cc: tt126@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > How does one build a house out of paper? Do you mean using > paper as > > insulation with some sort of fire retardant spray applied? > > I wonder if one could make panels for a geodesic structure out > of > > paper that look like real wood panels... > See http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/IcosDomePaperboard.htm > and http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Biblio/ByBFitinerary-1965.htm > and http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Biblio/ByBFitinerary-1966.htm There's another possibility, too. Look up "paper crete" in any search engine. You'll find a site hat describes a cement based paper mache material, which is fire retardant, and apparently rather strong. People are using it rather like adobe, making bricks by hand. Apparently it takes a long time to cure...but once it does it's quite strong and insulative. A similar product could probably be used to make industrial strength dome components, which could function quite well. Why, though, would you want it to look like "real wood?" Paper can be beautiful...wallpaper finish as the inner sheathing? Some mache even has a plaster-like appearance...might be very beautiful. (I always hated faux finishes. A product should be true to its nature.) -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 13:07:54 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Maybe I'm not asking the right question. I'm looking for info from all you as to how nature gets from the tetrahedron to the skull (or egg shell or whatever the natural form is). Both are geodesic structures as I understand it. No takers? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:13:06 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Dick, >From what I know, it takes both the tetrahedron and the octahedron to fill "all-space". By using a combination of these shapes on the atomic/molecular level, the larger scale shapes are achieved. -Tony. -----Original Message----- From: Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 3:08 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: geodesic structure Maybe I'm not asking the right question. I'm looking for info from all you as to how nature gets from the tetrahedron to the skull (or egg shell or whatever the natural form is). Both are geodesic structures as I understand it. No takers? Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:05:28 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: THE TRANSFER OF INDUSTRIAL TECHNOLOGIES <> Brian Q. Hutchings 21-AUG-2000 10:05 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us Space, please -- give us a page with all of it indexed! --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:07:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Eureka <> Brian Q. Hutchings 21-AUG-2000 10:07 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us what are you talking about -- Bucky's mystaque, unglued? how sure are you about it? thus quoth: We now have, after fifty years as Bucky predicted, the omni-frequency dome structure. Question- What is the highest frequency dome structure you know of? More soon. Have to talk to my patent attorney. %) who are you, anyway? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:57:29 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: GNOME throws down the gauntlet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here is some good news from the computing front: Major industry players unite to build open-source desktop environment for GNU-Linux. -Dexter (Check out the related links I've added to the bottom of this message.) GNOME throws down the gauntlet By Mary Jo Foley, ZDNN August 15, 2000 3:42 PM PT http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2615998,00.html?chkpt=zdhpnews01 SAN JOSE, Calif. -- Representatives from 13 companies and organizations took to the podium Tuesday at LinuxWorld here with one unified intention: to combat Microsoft's dominance on the desktop. Members of the newly minted Gnome Foundation outlined the various open-source technologies they are hoping to integrate going forward. The participants said they believed the very nature of the GNU public license and open-source development model would prevent them from succumbing to the fragmentation and infighting that has plagued standardization efforts over the years. (GNU, which stands for GNU's Not Unix, is a collection of Unix-compatible software applications developed and maintained by the Free Software Foundation.) "This is more than just another desktop or just another initiative," said Marco Boerries, Sun Microsystems Inc. vice president and general manager. Instead, the Gnome (pronounced Guh-NOME) Foundation's goal is to establish a user environment where members "won't need to be worried about somebody closing them out or eating their lunch." Sun and other open-source vendors have been vocal in their charges that Microsoft Corp. has hindered competition by refusing to publicize all of the Windows and Office application programming interfaces. What's in an open-source desktop? The folks backing The GNOME Project and its Gnome Foundation group of directors claim they want to change the rules for developers and users of desktop software. The GNOME Project has championed the GNOME (GNU Network Object Model Environment) user environment that runs on a variety of Linux and Unix variants. The Gnome Foundation, the formation of which was announced on Tuesday, will administer not only the direction of the open-source GNOME interface but also a variety of other elements that will comprise the evolving GNOME desktop environment. Among these elements are: GNOME Office, the open-source components of StarOffice contributed by Sun Microsystems; Evolution, a competitor to Microsoft Outlook and Lotus Notes on the groupware/messaging front that is being developed by Helix Code; Nautilus, an open-source graphical file manager developed by Eazel; Mozilla, the open-source version of the Netscape Navigator Web browser; Sash, an open-source development tool recently placed into open source by IBM; and GNOME's Bonobo component project and GTK toolkit work. The foundation is aiming to roll into a single, embedded environment all of the various technologies, said Eazel vice president of engineering Bud Tribble. "The GNOME desktop will integrate embedded Mozilla into the ( Eazel) Nautilus file manager," Tribble said. "From the user's view, they'll get a single view of the local storage, Web and Web services." Who's who As part of Tuesday's Gnome Foundation unveiling, Compaq Computer Corp., Hewlett-Packard Co., IBM Corp. and Sun's hardware business all lent their backing, by committing to make the GNOME interface an integrated part of the client user interfaces going forward. Compaq said it is working on integrating the GNOME environment onto its iPaq handhelds. HP, IBM and Sun all said they are planning to offer GNOME as an adjunct to the Common Desktop Environment (CDE) on their Unix platforms. How rapidly any of the GNOME user environments will be available from their respective vendors is uncertain. Sun officials said they planned to have an early test version of GNOME on Solaris available before the end of the year, with a more solid release available to users by mid-2001. In addition to hardware makers Compaq, HP, IBM and Sun, other backers of the Gnome Foundation include: Helix Code, CollabNet, Gnumatic Inc., the Object Management Group, Red Hat Inc., VA Linux Systems Inc. and the Free Software Foundation. How can so many competitors and future competitiors find common ground? Red Hat CEO Bob Young had an answer: "There's been a fundamental problem of getting industry consortium to work together....But we don't have a single corporate lawyer in the room. We haven't signed a single license among any of us....With the GPL, we have eliminated the need for trust." Related links: GNU General Public License (GPL) http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html Philosophy of the GNU Project http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html The GNOME project has built a complete free and easy-to-use desktop environment for the user, as well as a powerful application framework for the software developer. http://www.gnome.org/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 13:46:39 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] From Scout Report: corporations/ elections <> Brian Q. Hutchings 21-AUG-2000 13:46 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us well, to answer my own query: the UoMichigan "Documents Center" in deed does falsify the results of the Michigan Primaries, by pretensing that there was *no* Dem Primary, only a caucus, as you will see from the page: http://www.lib.umich.edu/libhome/Documents.center/michelec.html#camp2000 however, on this page there is a link to "MEL," which gives the raw data. (it's amusing to cmpare Lyn's numbers to The Donald's .-) --TheDuke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 05:30:05 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Conroy Subject: Re: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" >From what I know, it takes both the tetrahedron and the octahedron to fi= ll "all-space". By using a combination of these shapes on the atomic/molecular level, the= larger scale shapes are achieved.< Actually it can be shown that the base structure of the tetrahedr= on is the octahedron, and that the base structure of the octahedron is the icosidodecahedron. That is why Nature is not a series of oct-tet-cubes.= = Your common DNA has a 36 degree architecture just as an icosidodecahedron= because it is a combination of compounds with icosidodecahedron bases. T= he Icosahedron as well as the dodecahedron can be shown to be derived from t= he icosidodecahedron by the assembling of additional Golden Mean Platonic ty= pe elements. http://www.geocities.com/goldenmeandomes The 12 Golden Mean Platonic type elements have a female-male base= d symetry. The ratio of the female:male symetry sizing is Tau or 1.6180_____. Comingle two icosidodecahedron based spheres with size rati= os of Tau and fill smooth with GMP elements, and you will get your egg or skull type shape. Bob = ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:30:46 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain How can it be that the simplest structural element possible (the tetrahedron) is a subset of a more complex element ? I know that you can build a larger tetrahedron around an octahedron, but I would not say that the tetrahedron is reliant on the octahedron for its existence. -Tony. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Conroy [SMTP:Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 4:30 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: geodesic structure Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" >From what I know, it takes both the tetrahedron and the octahedron to fill "all-space". By using a combination of these shapes on the atomic/molecular level, the larger scale shapes are achieved.< Actually it can be shown that the base structure of the tetrahedron is the octahedron, and that the base structure of the octahedron is the icosidodecahedron. That is why Nature is not a series of oct-tet-cubes. Your common DNA has a 36 degree architecture just as an icosidodecahedron because it is a combination of compounds with icosidodecahedron bases. The Icosahedron as well as the dodecahedron can be shown to be derived from the icosidodecahedron by the assembling of additional Golden Mean Platonic type elements. http://www.geocities.com/goldenmeandomes The 12 Golden Mean Platonic type elements have a female-male based symetry. The ratio of the female:male symetry sizing is Tau or 1.6180_____. Comingle two icosidodecahedron based spheres with size ratios of Tau and fill smooth with GMP elements, and you will get your egg or skull type shape. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 08:27:25 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Eureka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-596516649-966958045=:21568" --0-596516649-966958045=:21568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Brian Hutchings wrote:> > Brian Q. Hutchings > 21-AUG-2000 10:07> r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> > what are you talking about --> Bucky's mystaque, unglued?> how sure are you about it?> > thus quoth:> We now have, after fifty years as Bucky predicted,> the> omni-frequency dome structure. Question- What is> the> highest frequency dome structure you know of?> > More soon. Have to talk to my patent attorney. %)> > > who are you, anyway?Brian- Who or what is a mystaque?I am confident that there is a simple way to create high frequency geodesic domes, approximately without calculations or knowledge of Bucky's work. I jumped the gun (and I apologies for that) because I can't give you too many details until the patent application is filed, maybe in six or eight weeks. In my excitement, I disregarded Bucky's incite not to show your work until it is complete. However, I can talk about the generalities. I am interested in showing that a geodesic dome is more than the Expo 67 dome or the Epcot Center dome. A skull is a geodesic dome. An egg shell is a geodesic dome as well.What are you interested in knowing about me? I am a 45 year old special education teacher for Maine, middle school. I can smell Bear Island from were I am sitting. I spent twenty years in various construction positions. I went to Expo 67. I was 14 at Woodstock. I've built and lived in a tipi. I've been in and out of this group for seven or so years. At the moment, I am without a residence, otherwise known as camping out. dick_fischbeck@yahoo.comHubdome, Patent-pending pending./\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>You can do your own thinking. --0-596516649-966958045=:21568 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii --- Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. Hutchings > 21-AUG-2000 10:07 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > what are you talking about -- > Bucky's mystaque, unglued? > how sure are you about it? > > thus quoth: > We now have, after fifty years as Bucky predicted, > the > omni-frequency dome structure. Question- What is > the > highest frequency dome structure you know of? > > More soon. Have to talk to my patent attorney. %) > > > who are you, anyway? Brian- Who or what is a mystaque? I am confident that there is a simple way to create high frequency geodesic domes, approximately without calculations or knowledge of Bucky's work. I jumped the gun (and I apologies for that) because I can't give you too many details until the patent application is filed, maybe in six or eight weeks. In my excitement, I disregarded Bucky's incite not to show your work until it is complete. However, I can talk about the generalities. I am interested in showing that a geodesic dome is more than the Expo 67 dome or the Epcot Center dome. A skull is a geodesic dome. An egg shell is a geodesic dome as well. What are you interested in knowing about me? I am a 45 year old special education teacher for Maine, middle school. I can smell Bear Island from were I am sitting. I spent twenty years in various construction positions. I went to Expo 67. I was 14 at Woodstock. I've built and lived in a tipi. I've been in and out of this group for seven or so years. At the moment, I am without a residence, otherwise known as camping out.

dick_fischbeck@yahoo.com Hubdome, Patent-pending pending. /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\ There are no bad kids!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. --0-596516649-966958045=:21568-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:33:44 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: Eureka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dick, I am interested to know how you have Internet access as you camp out ? -Tony. -----Original Message----- From: Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 10:27 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Eureka --- Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. Hutchings > 21-AUG-2000 10:07 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > what are you talking about -- > Bucky's mystaque, unglued? > how sure are you about it? > > thus quoth: > We now have, after fifty years as Bucky predicted, > the > omni-frequency dome structure. Question- What is > the > highest frequency dome structure you know of? > > More soon. Have to talk to my patent attorney. %) > > > who are you, anyway? Brian- Who or what is a mystaque? I am confident that there is a simple way to create high frequency geodesic domes, approximately without calculations or knowledge of Bucky's work. I jumped the gun (and I apologies for that) because I can't give you too many details until the patent application is filed, maybe in six or eight weeks. In my excitement, I disregarded Bucky's incite not to show your work until it is complete. However, I can talk about the generalities. I am interested in showing that a geodesic dome is more than the Expo 67 dome or the Epcot Center dome. A skull is a geodesic dome. An egg shell is a geodesic dome as well. What are you interested in knowing about me? I am a 45 year old special education teacher for Maine, middle school. I can smell Bear Island from were I am sitting. I spent twenty years in various construction positions. I went to Expo 67. I was 14 at Woodstock. I've built and lived in a tipi. I've been in and out of this group for seven or so years. At the moment, I am without a residence, otherwise known as camping out. dick_fischbeck@yahoo.com Hubdome, Patent-pending pending. /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\ There are no bad kids!! ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:53:41 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Eureka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The library and the school. --- Tony Kalenak wrote: > Dick, > I am interested to know how you have Internet access > as you camp out ? > -Tony. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dick Fischbeck > [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 10:27 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Eureka > > --- Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. > Hutchings > 21-AUG-2000 > 10:07 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > what > are you talking about -- > > Bucky's mystaque, unglued? > how sure are you > about it? > > thus quoth: > > We now have, after fifty years as Bucky predicted, > > the > omni-frequency > dome structure. Question- What is > the > highest > frequency dome structure > you know of? > > More soon. Have to talk to my > patent attorney. %) > > > who > are you, anyway? Brian- Who or what is a mystaque? I > am confident that there > is a simple way to create high frequency geodesic > domes, approximately > without calculations or knowledge of Bucky's work. I > jumped the gun (and I > apologies for that) because I can't give you too > many details until the > patent application is filed, maybe in six or eight > weeks. In my excitement, > I disregarded Bucky's incite not to show your work > until it is complete. > However, I can talk about the generalities. I am > interested in showing that > a geodesic dome is more than the Expo 67 dome or the > Epcot Center dome. A > skull is a geodesic dome. An egg shell is a geodesic > dome as well. What are > you interested in knowing about me? I am a 45 year > old special education > teacher for Maine, middle school. I can smell Bear > Island from were I am > sitting. I spent twenty years in various > construction positions. I went to > Expo 67. I was 14 at Woodstock. I've built and lived > in a tipi. I've been in > and out of this group for seven or so years. At the > moment, I am without a > residence, otherwise known as camping out. > > dick_fischbeck@yahoo.com Hubdome, > Patent-pending pending. > /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\ There are no bad > kids!! > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 09:58:21 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Eureka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I use the public libraries and the public schools. --- Tony Kalenak wrote: > Dick, > I am interested to know how you have Internet access > as you camp out ? > -Tony. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dick Fischbeck > [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 10:27 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Eureka > > --- Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. > Hutchings > 21-AUG-2000 > 10:07 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > what > are you talking about -- > > Bucky's mystaque, unglued? > how sure are you > about it? > > thus quoth: > > We now have, after fifty years as Bucky predicted, > > the > omni-frequency > dome structure. Question- What is > the > highest > frequency dome structure > you know of? > > More soon. Have to talk to my > patent attorney. %) > > > who > are you, anyway? Brian- Who or what is a mystaque? I > am confident that there > is a simple way to create high frequency geodesic > domes, approximately > without calculations or knowledge of Bucky's work. I > jumped the gun (and I > apologies for that) because I can't give you too > many details until the > patent application is filed, maybe in six or eight > weeks. In my excitement, > I disregarded Bucky's incite not to show your work > until it is complete. > However, I can talk about the generalities. I am > interested in showing that > a geodesic dome is more than the Expo 67 dome or the > Epcot Center dome. A > skull is a geodesic dome. An egg shell is a geodesic > dome as well. What are > you interested in knowing about me? I am a 45 year > old special education > teacher for Maine, middle school. I can smell Bear > Island from were I am > sitting. I spent twenty years in various > construction positions. I went to > Expo 67. I was 14 at Woodstock. I've built and lived > in a tipi. I've been in > and out of this group for seven or so years. At the > moment, I am without a > residence, otherwise known as camping out. > > dick_fischbeck@yahoo.com Hubdome, > Patent-pending pending. > /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\ There are no bad > kids!! > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:11:20 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: Eureka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Did you choose this life style or did it choose you ? I have a 2f x 8' radius dome available, if you need shelter. -----Original Message----- From: Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 11:58 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Eureka I use the public libraries and the public schools. --- Tony Kalenak wrote: > Dick, > I am interested to know how you have Internet access > as you camp out ? > -Tony. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dick Fischbeck > [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 10:27 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Eureka > > --- Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. > Hutchings > 21-AUG-2000 > 10:07 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > what > are you talking about -- > > Bucky's mystaque, unglued? > how sure are you > about it? > > thus quoth: > > We now have, after fifty years as Bucky predicted, > > the > omni-frequency > dome structure. Question- What is > the > highest > frequency dome structure > you know of? > > More soon. Have to talk to my > patent attorney. %) > > > who > are you, anyway? Brian- Who or what is a mystaque? I > am confident that there > is a simple way to create high frequency geodesic > domes, approximately > without calculations or knowledge of Bucky's work. I > jumped the gun (and I > apologies for that) because I can't give you too > many details until the > patent application is filed, maybe in six or eight > weeks. In my excitement, > I disregarded Bucky's incite not to show your work > until it is complete. > However, I can talk about the generalities. I am > interested in showing that > a geodesic dome is more than the Expo 67 dome or the > Epcot Center dome. A > skull is a geodesic dome. An egg shell is a geodesic > dome as well. What are > you interested in knowing about me? I am a 45 year > old special education > teacher for Maine, middle school. I can smell Bear > Island from were I am > sitting. I spent twenty years in various > construction positions. I went to > Expo 67. I was 14 at Woodstock. I've built and lived > in a tipi. I've been in > and out of this group for seven or so years. At the > moment, I am without a > residence, otherwise known as camping out. > > dick_fischbeck@yahoo.com Hubdome, > Patent-pending pending. > /\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\ There are no bad > kids!! > ><><><><><><><><><><><><><>< You can do your own thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:18:37 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: "cross-over" point at "5000 roofs," MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------18C196BE306CDB01F31B4D89" --------------18C196BE306CDB01F31B4D89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian, I like the way these graphs http://www.energy.wsu.edu/org/waseia/pvcurv.HTM context our current condition. In the first graph, the synapse can be seen but it hasn't 'fired'. I'm seeing this as a very big synapse, its close initiating the irreversible emergence of resilient-and-perpetually-renewable energy abundance as 'economical' in the heart of humanity's most powerful industrial economy. This, our wisest choice for decades. has been economical for decades only if people mattered, or only if external costs for military dominance and/or environmental impacts were internalized into the cost-benefit calculation. This of course never happened. But when the synapse in this graph closes, our dreamed-of-energy-abundance becomes economic anyway, finally meeting the ruthless Malthusian requirements of 'hard' economics. Washington's 5000 roofs is a sweet example of 'valving in' the desired technology with well timed leverage -- applied as soon as the leverage point has emerged (2nd graph). The targeted subsidies for 5000 roofs provide for the Sustained Orderly Development of a predictable market for the industries producing this PV technology, enabling their investment into just-now-on-the-horizon economies of scale. These investments will kick the 'hard economic' cost -benefit ratio even more irreversibly positive and we'll begin to trimtab firmly. (forgive me if preaching to the saved, but it was a nice way to start my day....) Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. Hutchings 14-AUG-2000 20:29 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > there are 2 problems with this page: a) > just a quibble, but a seeming "cross-over" point > at "5000 roofs," which is only made > by arbitrarily scaling the "roofs" scale -- > which goes unscaled (say, on the left); b) > the price of "Fossilized Fuels" (trademark, Obnoxico) > is somewhat out of date, for "Zero BP" !?! > > thus quoth: > At $2.50 per watt, PV generated electricity becomes cost competitive with > most conventional resources, allowing PV to begin displacing bulk power > generation by fossil fuels. > >> [ http://www.energy.wsu.edu/org/waseia/pvcurv.HTM ] > > --The Duke of Oil! > http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm --------------18C196BE306CDB01F31B4D89 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian,

I like the way these graphs

http://www.energy.wsu.edu/org/waseia/pvcurv.HTM
context our current condition.

In the first graph, the synapse can be seen but it hasn't 'fired'. I'm seeing this as a very big synapse, its close initiating the irreversible emergence of resilient-and-perpetually-renewable energy abundance as 'economical' in the heart of humanity's most powerful industrial economy. This, our wisest choice for decades. has been economical for decades only if people mattered, or only if external costs for military dominance and/or environmental impacts were internalized into the cost-benefit calculation. This of course never happened. But when the synapse in this graph closes, our dreamed-of-energy-abundance becomes economic anyway, finally meeting the ruthless Malthusian requirements of 'hard' economics.

Washington's 5000 roofs is a sweet example of 'valving in' the desired technology with well timed leverage -- applied as soon as the leverage point has emerged (2nd graph). The targeted subsidies for 5000 roofs provide for the Sustained Orderly Development of a predictable market for the industries producing this PV technology, enabling their investment into just-now-on-the-horizon economies of scale. These investments will kick the 'hard economic' cost -benefit ratio even more irreversibly positive and we'll begin to trimtab firmly.

(forgive me if preaching to the saved, but it was a nice way to start my day....)
 

Brian Hutchings wrote:

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Q. Hutchings                   14-AUG-2000 20:29
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 there are 2 problems with this page: a)
 just a quibble, but a seeming "cross-over" point
 at "5000 roofs," which is only made
 by arbitrarily scaling the "roofs" scale --
 which goes unscaled (say, on the left); b)
 the price of "Fossilized Fuels" (trademark, Obnoxico)
 is somewhat out of date, for "Zero BP" !?!

 thus quoth:
 At $2.50 per watt, PV generated electricity becomes cost competitive with
 most conventional resources, allowing PV to begin displacing bulk power
 generation by fossil fuels.

[ http://www.energy.wsu.edu/org/waseia/pvcurv.HTM ]
 --The Duke of Oil!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm
--------------18C196BE306CDB01F31B4D89-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:26:50 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Conroy Subject: Re: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" >How can it be that the simplest structural element possible (the tetrahedron) is a subset of a more complex element ? I know that you can build a larger tetrahedron around an octahedron, but = I would not say that the tetrahedron is reliant on the octahedron for its existence.< Both the tetrahedron & octahedron are icosidodecahedron related geometries. I have drawings showing the geometrical correlation between the oct & tet with a double icosahedron which is simply a icosidodecahedr= on with additional Golden Mean Elements attached. URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/molecula.htm The present day cosmology of the oct-tet being king of Nature is simply false. One would be hard put to substantiate it in a microscope o= r macroscopically, whereas, a microscopic look into fundamental viruses and= small organisms such as plankton, known as radiolaria, will find the full= range of geometries which you will find the oct-tet as only a fraction. = Even the simple but usefull quartz crystal has a left and right hand twis= t, which your proportional oct-tet could never produce. I relate the oct-t= et to the Peter-Paul duo. Peter & Paul being the "Foolish Shepherd" and the= "false prophet", whereas the oct-tet being the pied piper of todays cosmology. It is the other 10 elements which are the backbone of Nature,= as it is with the forgotten 10 apostles. Another analogy, being the jews, the tribes of Benjamin & Judah, as shown as the children of YHWH, whereas the lost 10 tribes of Israel are simply forgotten. It is sometim= es what you do not see that is important. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:32:05 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: TETRA TOPS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00C2C.997EEB20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00C2C.997EEB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New toy: TETRA TOPS by Kurt Przybilla http://www.tetratops.com/ Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00C2C.997EEB20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Untitled Document.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Untitled Document.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.tetratops.com/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.tetratops.com/ Modified=201363FD660CC001C6 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00C2C.997EEB20-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:44:26 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" It is not my intention to say that Nature does not use an infinite number of geometries in her creations depending on her needs. But at the most basic level, between subatomic particles, for a stabile structure the minimum requirement is the 6 vectors of the tetrahedron. Then to fill "all-space" add the 12 vectors of the octahedron( also a primary stable solid).. No where is it stated that these forms have to be regular. Uneven sides are probably more the rule than the exception. If you don't care about stability use whatever form suits your devices, nature certainly does. Oh, and as for your biblical analogy, I've always preferred the Gospels. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Conroy [SMTP:Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 1:27 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: geodesic structure Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" >How can it be that the simplest structural element possible (the tetrahedron) is a subset of a more complex element ? I know that you can build a larger tetrahedron around an octahedron, but I would not say that the tetrahedron is reliant on the octahedron for its existence.< Both the tetrahedron & octahedron are icosidodecahedron related geometries. I have drawings showing the geometrical correlation between the oct & tet with a double icosahedron which is simply a icosidodecahedron with additional Golden Mean Elements attached. URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/molecula.htm The present day cosmology of the oct-tet being king of Nature is simply false. One would be hard put to substantiate it in a microscope or macroscopically, whereas, a microscopic look into fundamental viruses and small organisms such as plankton, known as radiolaria, will find the full range of geometries which you will find the oct-tet as only a fraction. Even the simple but usefull quartz crystal has a left and right hand twist, which your proportional oct-tet could never produce. I relate the oct-tet to the Peter-Paul duo. Peter & Paul being the "Foolish Shepherd" and the "false prophet", whereas the oct-tet being the pied piper of todays cosmology. It is the other 10 elements which are the backbone of Nature, as it is with the forgotten 10 apostles. Another analogy, being the jews, the tribes of Benjamin & Judah, as shown as the children of YHWH, whereas the lost 10 tribes of Israel are simply forgotten. It is sometimes what you do not see that is important. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:46:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob, no disrespect intended but I think you know more about the bible than synergetics. > The present day cosmology of the oct-tet being > king of Nature is > simply false. One would be hard put to substantiate > it in a microscope or > macroscopically, whereas, a microscopic look into > fundamental viruses and > small organisms such as plankton, known as > radiolaria, will find the full > range of geometries which you will find the oct-tet > as only a fraction. > Even the simple but usefull quartz crystal has a > left and right hand twist, > which your proportional oct-tet could never produce. > I relate the oct-tet > to the Peter-Paul duo. Peter & Paul being the > "Foolish Shepherd" and the > "false prophet", whereas the oct-tet being the pied > piper of todays > cosmology. It is the other 10 elements which are > the backbone of Nature, > as it is with the forgotten 10 apostles. Another > analogy, being the > jews, the tribes of Benjamin & Judah, as shown as > the children of YHWH, > whereas the lost 10 tribes of Israel are simply > forgotten. It is sometimes > what you do not see that is important. > Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:18:39 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: geodesic structure <> Brian Q. Hutchings 22-AUG-2000 7:18 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/molecula.htm didn't work. anyway, the symmetry of the tetrahedron is contained in the (octahedron and the) icosahedron in (2) five ways -- or, rather, it can be ennested around the icosah., in five ways, making a 5-tet compound, just as it can be nested *in* to the dodecahedron (icosagon, or "icosavertexia" in Bucky's "post-humous" usage !-) whether you want to say that the symmetry of the tetragon is a subset of that of the dodecagon (icosahedron), or not, is a question. thus quoth: Both the tetrahedron & octahedron are icosidodecahedron related geometries. I have drawings showing the geometrical correlation between the oct & tet with a double icosahedron which is simply a icosidodecahedron with additional Golden Mean Elements attached. URL: --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:26:20 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: "cross-over" point at "5000 roofs," <> Brian Q. Hutchings 22-AUG-2000 7:26 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us like, Man, you missed my "point," Brother Sun. the number of roofs (in Seattle-area?) of 5000, as some sort of cosmical accounting benchmark, was purely arbitrary, and covertly scaled in the graph, so as to produce a cross-over with the other data (cost per KWH?). this is what we call, fibbing with statistics! I take it also that you believe Seattle to be the "center of our most powerful industry," which I guess you mean to be Virtual Reality -- the power of the Rectal Display Unit! thus quoth: I like the way these graphs http://www.energy.wsu.edu/org/waseia/pvcurv.HTM context our current condition. ... > there are 2 problems with this page: a) > just a quibble, but a seeming "cross-over" point > at "5000 roofs," which is only made > by arbitrarily scaling the "roofs" scale -- > which goes unscaled (say, on the left); b) > the price of "Fossilized Fuels" (trademark, Obnoxico) > is somewhat out of date, for "Zero BP" !?! >--The Duke of Oil! >http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:30:48 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Eureka <> Brian Q. Hutchings 22-AUG-2000 7:30 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us well, thus far, it sounds like gold-plated BS; Bucky's approach to a unitary-strutted any-frequency geodesic was a bit of a dead-end, as cool as "ninetyness" is. thus quoth: work until it is complete. However, I can talk about the generalities. I am interested in showing that a geodesic dome is more than the Expo 67 dome or the Epcot Center dome. A skull is a geodesic dome. An egg shell is a geodesic dome as well.What are you interested in knowing about me? I am a 45 year old special education teacher for Maine, middle school. I can smell Bear Island from were I am sitting. I spent twenty years in various construction positions. I went to Expo 67. I was 14 at Woodstock. I've built and lived in a tipi. Bogart that poultice, my friend! --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:20:55 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Conroy Subject: Re: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works" > whether you want to say that the symmetry of the tetragon is a subset of that of the dodecagon (icosahedron), or not, is a question.< My point is that Nature is not composed of a fixed set of geometrical tinker toy shapes. The space of the tetrahedron & the octahedron can be substitued for by properly arranged series of progressi= ve icosidodecahedron based geometries. Just like the government could do wel= l without lawers and politicians, Nature could probably limb along without the underlying help of the geometrical tetrahedron or the octahedron. = The worship of the tetrahedron has been documented back from the Egyptian Osiris through to his modern day Greek Apollo in the guise of th= e original seal for NASA's space program. = In a practical sense, unless one is building a flat space truss fo= r large span buildings, there isn't much to say about the oct-tet. Even it= 's modern day inventor, Alexander Graham Bell, didn't get a heart attach ove= r his uncovery. Just as modern day religions are based on a "foolish sheperd" and = a "false prophet", Peter & Paul, so todays architecture is based on a cube,= a cube being a combination a whole tetrahedron and four 1/8 sections of a octahedron. They are both false paths that lead to the destruction of= time and material if not lives. Bob = = = = ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:15:00 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: tetra question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01C00C7E.08017620" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C00C7E.08017620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Quote: =20 The worship of the tetrahedron has been documented back from the Egyptian Osiris through to his modern day Greek Apollo in the guise of = the original seal for NASA's space program. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------- Bob, Do you mean the tetrahedron or the truncated octahedron (The shape = of the pyrimids) ? Also if you look at the crystal structure of diamond you'll find the = binding forces of the atoms to be tetrahedronal although many books on = the subject classify diamond has a cubic lattice and the only way they = can do that is to stick the diamond in an arbitrarily sized cubic box, = kinda like sticking round pegs into square holes. Rememember this november to vote early and often for Marx (Graucho not = Karl) for Presidente la USA. The End Mark ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C00C7E.08017620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Quote:  

      The = worship of=20 the tetrahedron has been documented back from the
Egyptian Osiris = through to=20 his modern day Greek Apollo in the guise of the
original seal for = NASA's=20 space program.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------
 
Bob, Do you mean the tetrahedron or the = truncated=20 octahedron (The shape of the pyrimids) ?
 
Also if you look at the crystal = structure of=20 diamond you'll find the binding forces of the atoms to be tetrahedronal = although=20 many books on the subject classify diamond has a cubic lattice and the = only way=20 they can do that is to stick the diamond in an arbitrarily sized cubic = box,=20 kinda like sticking round pegs into square holes.
 
Rememember this november to vote early = and often=20 for Marx (Graucho not Karl) for Presidente la USA.
 
The End
 
Mark
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C00C7E.08017620-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:04:03 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: "cross-over" point at "5000 roofs," MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6AA7D25485716514EC15E294" --------------6AA7D25485716514EC15E294 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. Hutchings 22-AUG-2000 7:26 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > like, Man, you missed my "point," Brother Sun. > the number of roofs (in Seattle-area?) of 5000, > as some sort of cosmical accounting benchmark, > was purely arbitrary, and covertly scaled in the graph, > so as to produce a cross-over with the other data > (cost per KWH?). this is what we call, > fibbing with statistics! Nope. Didn't miss your point(s)...I was just politely moving on to what I consider relevant about the charts. The "purely arbitrary benchmark" of 5000 is a reasonable guess based on the estimated impact of 5000 purchased PV rooftop systems in WA (WA has over 1.6 million households). This is what we call "projecting". > I take it also that you believe Seattle > to be the "center of our most powerful industry," > which I guess you mean to be Virtual Reality -- > the power of the Rectal Display Unit! Nope. By "heart of humanity's most powerful industrial economy" I meant the existing tooled-up industrial production capability controlled by Grunch. > > > thus quoth: > I like the way these graphs > > http://www.energy.wsu.edu/org/waseia/pvcurv.HTM > > context our current condition. > > ... > > > there are 2 problems with this page: a) > > just a quibble, but a seeming "cross-over" point > > at "5000 roofs," which is only made > > by arbitrarily scaling the "roofs" scale -- > > which goes unscaled (say, on the left); b) > > the price of "Fossilized Fuels" (trademark, Obnoxico) > > is somewhat out of date, for "Zero BP" !?! > > >--The Duke of Oil! > >http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm --------------6AA7D25485716514EC15E294 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
Brian Hutchings wrote:
<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Q. Hutchings                   22-AUG-2000  7:26
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 like, Man, you missed my "point," Brother Sun.
    the number of roofs (in Seattle-area?) of 5000,
 as some sort of cosmical accounting benchmark,
 was purely arbitrary, and covertly scaled in the graph,
 so as to produce a cross-over with the other data
 (cost per KWH?).  this is what we call,
 fibbing with statistics!

Nope. Didn't miss your point(s)...I was just politely moving on to what I consider relevant about the charts. The "purely arbitrary benchmark" of 5000 is a reasonable guess based on the estimated impact of  5000 purchased PV rooftop systems in WA (WA has over 1.6 million households). This is what we call "projecting".
    I take it also that you believe Seattle
 to be the "center of our most powerful industry,"
 which I guess you mean to be Virtual Reality --
 the power of the Rectal Display Unit!
Nope. By "heart of humanity's most powerful industrial economy" I meant the existing tooled-up industrial production capability controlled by Grunch.
 

 thus quoth:
  I like the way these graphs

       http://www.energy.wsu.edu/org/waseia/pvcurv.HTM

  context our current condition.

 ...

  >  there are 2 problems with this page: a)
  >  just a quibble, but a seeming "cross-over" point
  >  at "5000 roofs," which is only made
  >  by arbitrarily scaling the "roofs" scale --
  >  which goes unscaled (say, on the left); b)
  >  the price of "Fossilized Fuels" (trademark, Obnoxico)
  >  is somewhat out of date, for "Zero BP" !?!

 >--The Duke of Oil!
 >http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm

--------------6AA7D25485716514EC15E294-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:36:10 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: 5000 roofs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00C9A.2270F960" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00C9A.2270F960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After looking over the pages you posted Mike I calculated that the = systems would have to last at least 25 years ( Batteries too? ) to be = equal to what I pay for instance for my electricity per month. I figured = approxomately 5,000 bucks for installation. There's another factor too, = and that is hail damage. Can a person buy insurance for that, affordably = I mean? Also does the state of Washington have it set up where a person = can sell electricity back to the grid? ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00C9A.2270F960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
After looking over the pages you posted = Mike I=20 calculated that the systems would have to last at least 25 years ( = Batteries=20 too? ) to be equal to what I pay for instance for my electricity per = month. I=20 figured approxomately 5,000 bucks for installation. There's another = factor too,=20 and that is hail damage. Can a person buy insurance for that, affordably = I mean?=20 Also does the state of Washington have it set up where a person can sell = electricity back to the grid?
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C00C9A.2270F960-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:42:49 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sin-ergetics, the cult, has arrived. --- Robert Conroy wrote: > Message text written by "List for the discussion of > Buckminster Fuller's > works" > > whether you want to say that the symmetry > of the tetragon is a subset of that of the > dodecagon (icosahedron), > or not, is a question.< > > My point is that Nature is not composed of a > fixed set of > geometrical tinker toy shapes. The space of the > tetrahedron & the > octahedron can be substitued for by properly > arranged series of progressive > icosidodecahedron based geometries. Just like the > government could do well > without lawers and politicians, Nature could > probably limb along without > the underlying help of the geometrical tetrahedron > or the octahedron. > The worship of the tetrahedron has been > documented back from the > Egyptian Osiris through to his modern day Greek > Apollo in the guise of the > original seal for NASA's space program. > In a practical sense, unless one is building > a flat space truss for > large span buildings, there isn't much to say about > the oct-tet. Even it's > modern day inventor, Alexander Graham Bell, didn't > get a heart attach over > his uncovery. > Just as modern day religions are based on a > "foolish sheperd" and a > "false prophet", Peter & Paul, so todays > architecture is based on a cube, a > cube being a combination a whole tetrahedron and > four 1/8 sections of a > octahedron. They are both false paths that lead > to the destruction of > time and material if not lives. Bob > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:58:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Eureka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1957747793-967060725=:23348" --0-1957747793-967060725=:23348 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii BrainI didn't say anything about struts. What does 'don't hog the warm, soft mass for an ache" (bogart the poultice)mean? And mistaque? And ninetyness?Dick--- Brian Hutchings wrote:> > Brian Q. Hutchings > 22-AUG-2000 7:30> r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us> > well, thus far, it sounds like gold-plated BS;> Bucky's approach to a unitary-strutted> any-frequency geodesic> was a bit of a dead-end, as cool as "ninetyness"> is.> > thus quoth:> work until it is complete. However, I can talk> about the generalities. I> am> interested in showing that a geodesic dome is more> than the Expo 67 dome> or the> Epcot Center dome. A skull is a geodesic dome. An> egg shell is a geodesic> dome> as well.What are you interested in knowing about> me? I am a 45 year old> special education teacher for Maine, middle school.> I can smell Bear> Island> from were I am sitting. I spent twenty years in> various construction> positions.> I went to Expo 67. I was 14 at Woodstock. I've> built and lived in a tipi.> > Bogart that poultice, my friend!> > --The Duke of Oil!> http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm --0-1957747793-967060725=:23348 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Brain I didn't say anything about struts. What does 'don't hog the warm, soft mass for an ache" (bogart the poultice)mean? And mistaque? And ninetyness? Dick --- Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. Hutchings > 22-AUG-2000 7:30 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > well, thus far, it sounds like gold-plated BS; > Bucky's approach to a unitary-strutted > any-frequency geodesic > was a bit of a dead-end, as cool as "ninetyness" > is. > > thus quoth: > work until it is complete. However, I can talk > about the generalities. I > am > interested in showing that a geodesic dome is more > than the Expo 67 dome > or the > Epcot Center dome. A skull is a geodesic dome. An > egg shell is a geodesic > dome > as well.What are you interested in knowing about > me? I am a 45 year old > special education teacher for Maine, middle school. > I can smell Bear > Island > from were I am sitting. I spent twenty years in > various construction > positions. > I went to Expo 67. I was 14 at Woodstock. I've > built and lived in a tipi. > > Bogart that poultice, my friend! > > --The Duke of Oil! > http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm --0-1957747793-967060725=:23348-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:07:50 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Gold plated BS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bucky watch the bubbles foaming behind his baot and though, "Nature isn't using Pi." I look at the wasp's nest and say, "These wasps don't use calculators." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 15:12:46 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Gold plated BS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" We don't need Pi or calculators or even math to build something, only to describe it. I don't know what the hell that means, just thought I'd throw it out... Steve O -----Original Message----- From: Dick Fischbeck [mailto:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 3:08 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Gold plated BS Bucky watch the bubbles foaming behind his baot and though, "Nature isn't using Pi." I look at the wasp's nest and say, "These wasps don't use calculators." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 08:05:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Gold plated BS <> Brian Q. Hutchings 23-AUG-2000 8:05 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us "Nature" thus ennunciates no thing, even "uno, dos, treis ..." -- let-alone ratios between such whole-numbers; zero is a further non-nature-ennunciated hyperprogrammability. mayhap, does this really mean, that nature does not "use" mathematics, in the sense of "multiplying-only-by-dividing" and so forth? in this way, I say, pi is a perfect concept, although its preference over pith ("one-over-pi") is a matter of tradition, the particular problem. "Do not interview a Rationalist, when only a Transcendentalist will provide a conversation!" thus quoth: nest and say, "These wasps don't use calculators." thank God, for the education of wasps! "Hemp for Haemorrhoids!" is my rallying cry for the belief in "medical marijuana" (or, hemp as an solar-industrial economy panacea), dude. Bucky had a saying, "mistake mystique," which I so abbreviate, as mystaque. "ninetyness" refers to his mistaken breakthrough to unitary struttiness, or maybe it was 270-ness (4x90). --The Duke of Oil!> http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 17:57:59 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: 5000 roofs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------324A2611B53BA2CD8EFF04D1" --------------324A2611B53BA2CD8EFF04D1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Systems have 25 year warrantees against more than a 10% drop in output. Installation takes 2 people 1.5 days to install, if it is a complex install job (you can do it yourself, if you can operate a screwdriver). Hail damage: testing requires that modules survive undamaged repeated impacts from a one inch ice ball fired at 50 mph. Use grid as battery through net metering (its not just a good Idea, it's the law in WA) marksomers wrote: > After looking over the pages you posted Mike I calculated that the > systems would have to last at least 25 years ( Batteries too? ) to be > equal to what I pay for instance for my electricity per month. I > figured approxomately 5,000 bucks for installation. There's another > factor too, and that is hail damage. Can a person buy insurance for > that, affordably I mean? Also does the state of Washington have it set > up where a person can sell electricity back to the grid? --------------324A2611B53BA2CD8EFF04D1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Systems have 25 year warrantees against more than a 10% drop in output.

Installation takes 2 people 1.5 days to install, if it is a complex install job (you can do it yourself, if you can operate a screwdriver).

Hail damage: testing requires that modules survive undamaged repeated impacts from a one inch ice ball fired at 50 mph.

Use grid as battery through net metering (its not just a good Idea, it's the law in WA)
 
 

marksomers wrote:

After looking over the pages you posted Mike I calculated that the systems would have to last at least 25 years ( Batteries too? ) to be equal to what I pay for instance for my electricity per month. I figured approxomately 5,000 bucks for installation. There's another factor too, and that is hail damage. Can a person buy insurance for that, affordably I mean? Also does the state of Washington have it set up where a person can sell electricity back to the grid?    
--------------324A2611B53BA2CD8EFF04D1-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 18:25:54 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: 5000 roofs and 'hard' economics criteria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A2361DB04F9603185627079D" --------------A2361DB04F9603185627079D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit " I hope everyone can keep finding reasons not to act! (why do we not apply this kind of thinking to SUV's, hardwood floors, second bathrooms, we could get rid of all that waste also) Saving wetlands is not cost effective. Locking up the Arctic Wildlife refuge only saves mesquito breeding grounds and the caribou they feed on. Let's use all the oil now cause it's still cheaper than bottled water!! " -quote from a pattern integrity once considered lunatic fringe and now consulting with govts on PV installations. > --------------A2361DB04F9603185627079D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit " I hope everyone can keep finding reasons not to act!   (why do we not apply this kind of thinking to SUV's, hardwood floors, second bathrooms, we could get rid of all that waste also)   Saving wetlands is not cost effective.  Locking up the Arctic Wildlife refuge only saves mesquito breeding grounds and the caribou they feed on.  Let's use all the oil now cause it's still cheaper than bottled water!! "

-quote from a pattern integrity once considered lunatic fringe and now consulting with govts on PV installations.

     
--------------A2361DB04F9603185627079D-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 04:54:56 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Buckminster Fuller's World Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" , synergeo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just thought of something, you couldn't create a more popular theme park than Buckminster Fuller's World. What a wild ride that would be. Move over Disney World. The Millennial Design Science Revolution has arrived! 'Imagine a three-ring circus -- high wire act, blaring bands, clowning, and all -- with one man as the whole show. That will give you a feeble idea of... R. Buckminster Fuller, engineer extraordinary, inventor of the Dymaxion car and house, seer, and scientifico -- a philosophical whirling dervish spinning with a high tension hum on the edge of the Deep End.' --Sinclair Lewis The R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City Home of the Millennial Design Science Revolution A working industrial city, high-tech theme park Strategically Located in Central Texas Launch Site for the Spaceship Earth Race An International Cooperative Effort to Achieve Complete Physical Success for All Humanity Within the First Decade of The Twenty-First Century Central Texas is ideally situated for building a model industrial center for the emerging New Economy, and the truly advanced Scientific Civilization that the new economy represents. Central Texas is at the hub of Texas' rapidly growing population, at the center of all of North America's major population centers, and situated between Dallas and Austin, two of the world's fastest growing high-technology centers. Texas could not be a more symbolically fitting location for the R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City. In 1997, the Texas legislature made the buckminsterfullerene molecule (carbon 60), the Official Molecule of the State of Texas. The codiscoverers at Rice University were so inspired by Buckminster Fuller that they named the molecule after him. The molecule resembles his famous geodesic domes, and was predicted by his Synergetic Geometry. The buckminsterfullerene class of molecules, called Bucky Balls and Bucky Tubes, promises to revolutionize materials science. Home of the failed superconducting-supercollider, Central Texas is a prime location for building the most advance high-tech center that our 21st century technological civilization can achieve. The R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City is a relevant replacement for that doomed technological dinosaur. Many believe that Buckminster Fuller's Synergetic Modeling is superior to costly particle accelerators. 'Synergetics provides real-world understanding of interarrangeabilities of subatomic particles, which is to say, a more sophisticated understanding of subatomics than that of the nuclear physicist whose favorite tool is the atom smasher.' (more: Synergetic Modeling Vs. Atom Smashers) One-thousand-seven-hundred of the world's leading scientist, including the majority of Nobel Laureates in the sciences have warned that unsustainable growth is leading to an environmental and humanitarian catastrophe. Buckminster Fuller said, humanity is in a race between utopia and oblivion. Dedicated to the achievement of complete physical success for all humanity, the R. Buckminster Fuller Spaceship Earth Science City has emerged out of Waco, Texas as a clear alternative to the doomsday prophecy of David Korish, which Waco has unjustly become a symbol of. Utopia or Oblivion? These are the Millennial Prospects for Humanity. Spaceship Earth Science City is the trademark/servicemark of SpaceshipEarth.com and Spaceship Earth Science City For the Benefit of All Humanity! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:26:37 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: what's is this Make or imagine a three-way grid of one-way telescoping tubes (they only extend and they only extend a predetermined distance) which are in the closed mode, with flexible connectors (hubs) at each crossing. This 'mat' or fabric is laying flat on the ground, more or less in the shape of a circle or hexegon, it doesn't matter. Stake the edges of this mat at each connection. Gradually pull up, approximately equally, each vertex, until it won't expand anymore. What happens? What do I have? I have not tried this outside of my mind. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:46:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: what's is this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Very interesting thought experiment. I'm thinking you could have a flat mat -> dome system. Might just work. Of course you would have to keep tension on the system (or could you have it lock into place when it reaches final shape ?). Then again a flat mat might get pretty large for a large dome. It might be better to take something similar to Hoberman's approach where you have a collapsed sphere/hemisphere, but using telescopic tubes. and pull on it till is fully extends, locking into place at full extension. -----Original Message----- From: Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2000 2:27 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: what's is this Make or imagine a three-way grid of one-way telescoping tubes (they only extend and they only extend a predetermined distance) which are in the closed mode, with flexible connectors (hubs) at each crossing. This 'mat' or fabric is laying flat on the ground, more or less in the shape of a circle or hexegon, it doesn't matter. Stake the edges of this mat at each connection. Gradually pull up, approximately equally, each vertex, until it won't expand anymore. What happens? What do I have? I have not tried this outside of my mind. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 16:47:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Buckminster Fuller's Universe--His Life and Work Comments: cc: _DomeHomeList MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00DEA.FA5BC340" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00DEA.FA5BC340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New Bucky book by Sieden now available: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738203793/qid=967160649/sr=1-2/103-3 851575-4896638 Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00DEA.FA5BC340 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Amazon.com buying info Buckminster Fuller's Universe His Life and Work.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Amazon.com buying info Buckminster Fuller's Universe His Life and Work.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=3Dhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738203793/qid=3D9671606= 49/sr=3D1-2/103-3851575-4896638 [InternetShortcut] URL=3Dhttp://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738203793/qid=3D967160649/s= r=3D1-2/103-3851575-4896638 Modified=3DA0D6FC50250EC001B6 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00DEA.FA5BC340-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 18:11:41 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Buckminster Fuller Photo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00DF6.C0B0C4E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00DF6.C0B0C4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very nice color pic of Bucky: http://www.potentialsmedia.com/buckminsterphoto.html Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00DF6.C0B0C4E0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Buckminster Fuller Photo.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Buckminster Fuller Photo.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.potentialsmedia.com/buckminsterphoto.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.potentialsmedia.com/buckminsterphoto.html Modified=4068F64B310EC001E9 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00DF6.C0B0C4E0-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:18:57 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Waco has more bandwidth than all Texas cities combined Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, at least it did in the dream I had, after reading that article in yesterday's paper. It said Waco has more bandwidth, per capita, than any other Texas city. Considering Waco is circled by all of Texas' major cities, and minor ones, Waco's probably been wired for routing a lot of digital data through here. So why is my modem so slow? All I can say is, MORE BANDWIDTH! It says Waco's wired status would be particularly advantageous for distance learning applications, and that bandwidth is one of the resources businesses search for when considering a location. And, Waco is a potential distribution center for high-tech products to surrounding cities. I thought it already was! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:38:28 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Spaceship Earth Comments: To: "tetworld@listbot.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For all the people of the world to enjoy the same standard of living as Americans and Canadians do, we'd need two more earths to support this lifestyle with presently used technology. Two more earths or a few Spaceship Earth Science Cities, these are our options. What do you think? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 04:34:57 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] UN summit: From WILPF list <> Brian Q. Hutchings 25-AUG-2000 4:34 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us in this corner, The People's Superhero, RalphPIRG.org! in this corner, the People's Antihero, PatUSA#1.com! in that corner of the skew tetragonal ring, You! in the fourth corner, shivering naked in his silken left glove, Me? may we all get reasonable consolation prizes, once Gush sweeps the Electroal College into the ashtray o'history. --The End of History! http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 10:17:46 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Gold-plated BS <> Brian Q. Hutchings 25-AUG-2000 10:17 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us SUBJECT: [Q-P] UN summit: From WILPF list MESSAGE from =r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.U 25-AUG-20 4:37 <> Brian Q. Hutchings 25-AUG-2000 4:22 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us it's just not going to be the same, with the Godking of the Holy Tibetan Empire holding his court on the periphery -- in the National (Episcopate) Cathedral? while we are aligned naturally with billionairesforbushorogore --satirically-- so, not, is Nader. while the media gives his Greenness tons of populist coverage, Buchanan's populist attacks on the IMF et al (including the UN) are only given negative PR from the Wall Street Journal,with their coorporatist, supranational outlook. the media that I see from LA, at least the print and radio (no TV), is decidely, in other word, Bushy. (the fact that Lieberman is the "favorite Democratic Senator" of the (so-called) Republicans, and so forth, does not hide the fact that the oligarch prefers "JR" Bush !-) as for the typical "Left" assertion (or the vise-versa from the "Right") that the USA "subverts" the effortss of the UN, isn't this contradicted by FDR's plans for this body, as a "community of nations," and the unfortunate caving-in of Truman to Churchill's "methods of the 18th Century," by deploying the Merchant Marine, after the war, to repair the British Empire, and others? why is it that a mere, mid-70s change of nomenclature, of a now-57-member bloc of voting in the day-to-day legislation (of the General Assembly) of the UN, now constitutes some sort of American hegemony? is that the view of you, yourself, James Bond and Austin Powers? --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:41:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Earth View MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00ECC.750BD1C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00ECC.750BD1C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "The Living Earth" real-time map of light/dark areas of earth: http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth?opt=-p&img=learth.evif Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00ECC.750BD1C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Earth View.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Earth View.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth?opt=-p&img=learth.evif [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth?opt=-p&img=learth.evif Modified=60E554DE060FC0014D ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00ECC.750BD1C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 19:47:29 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Earth View MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C00ECD.4D8ACB00" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C00ECD.4D8ACB00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Foumilab's zoomable topo map of the earth: http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C00ECD.4D8ACB00 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Earth View.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Earth View.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth Modified=C003B3CE070FC0011B ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C00ECD.4D8ACB00-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 22:21:07 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: It's a crying shame MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Motorola said Wednesday it was finalizing a schedule to destroy the 66 satellites of Iridium LLC because the bankrupt satellite telephone it backed failed to find a buyer. Iridium spent close to $5 billion building the first-ever satellite phone service capable of transmitting calls anywhere on Earth's surface. http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38424,00.html ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 23:16:37 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: Re: It's a crying shame Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com In-Reply-To: <39A6F153.55C1E08F@mail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yup, it sure is. I wonder who's responsible for screwing this up? > Motorola said Wednesday it was finalizing a schedule to destroy > the 66 satellites of Iridium LLC because the bankrupt satellite > telephone it backed failed to find a buyer. Iridium spent close > to $5 billion building the first-ever satellite phone service > capable of transmitting calls anywhere on Earth's surface. > > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38424,00.html ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 08:55:28 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: Nader Rolling Stone interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00F3B.61EA3540" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00F3B.61EA3540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bucky voted even though he understood the system. I think if Bucky were = alive today he would vote for this guy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 07:06:27 -0600 Subject: 1st 5 things Ralph would do as President ROLLING STONE ISSUE 849 -- Rolling Stone Interview of Green Party = candidate Ralph Nader September 14, 2000 CRASHING THE PARTY Ralph Nader is so fed up with corrupt beltway politics that he is = willing to sacrifice Al Gore. By Charles M. Young FROM 1965 TO 1980, RALPH NADER WAS ONE OF the most influential people in = the United States. By sheer force of moral argument, he got Congress to = pass a vast array of legislation that improved bad cars, bad water, bad = air, bad working conditions, bad banks and ... well, you name it. He can = take credit for spurring the passage of such landmark laws as the = Freedom of Information Act and the Clean Air Act. Since 1980, Nader's career has followed an arc similar to the first half = of a Popeye cartoon. Bluto showed up in the form of President Ronald = Reagan. His administration refused to enforce laws Nader had inspired = and turned the regulatory agencies into tools of industry. During = Clinton's tenure, the signing of NAFTA and the U.S. entry into the WTO = meant that labor and environmental groups could be slighted in trade = negotiations. For twenty years, Washington, D.C., crust-ed over into a = giant Blutocracy. Nader fired shots across the bow of the two-party = Titanic by introducing himself as a presidential candidate in 1992 and = again in 1996. Reluctant to siphon off enough progressive votes to = defeat the Democrats, Nader gave a few good speeches and otherwise = didn't do much. Still, the White House watched closely. "Clinton was very concerned with Nader's candidacy" in i996, says Dick = Morris, Clinton's former adviser and pollster. "He kept raising it with = me and asking whether I thought it would cost him California. He could = not understand how Nader would not draw votes from him. I don't know = that he actually tried to knock Nader off the ballot, but he was deeply = concerned." This year, Nader is campaigning for real on the Green Party ticket. The = Blutocracy has finally dumped one too many loads of toxic waste on his = head. "That's all I can stand," was the message when he announced his = candidacy in February. "I can't stands no more." Nader's stated goal is to get five percent of the vote, in which case = the Greens would get federal matching funds in 2004. With his campaign = just gaining momentum, he now rates six to seven percent in the polls, = three times as much as Pat Buchanan. He and Buchanan are suing to be = allowed into the presidential debates. If they succeed a highly unlikely = prospect the entire nation could go into the same sort of political flux = that rearranged Minnesota when Jesse Ventura was allowed to debate. A number of ordinarily Democratic celebro-Americans are supporting = Nader: Willie Nelson, Bonnie Raitt, Eddie Vedder, Susan Sarandon, Paul = Newman, Phil Donahue, Jackson Browne. "There's a widespread assumption = that candidates in the two major parties can't say what they believe or = they won't get elected," says Browne, one of the most active of = activists in the musical community. "So the people end up voting on the = basis of spin and then hoping that in a few years the candidate might = have done something that they assumed he believed in but couldn't = actually say. It's time to stop this. Ralph Nader says what he thinks, = he can discuss any issue without a scriptwriter, and he's the only = candidate talking about government handouts to corporations." RS--How serious are you about running for president this time? N--We're trying to get on the ballot in all fifty states. We're going to = show that citizen power can overcome business dol- lars in election = campaigns. RS--Why didn't you run in the Democratic primaries? N--Because the party is not capable of internal reform anymore. It's too = far gone into the corporate pits. RS--What are the first five things you would do as president? N--First, I would declare a pro-democracy initiative - that means public = financing of election campaigns, urge the states to have same-day = registration, make voting day a holiday and a celebration of the = democratic process, develop a binding "none of the above" proposal. = People could check "none of the above" on their ballots, and if that = wins, there would have to be another election. Second' I would push to = remove restrictions that hamper workers from forming trade unions in the = private sector. Third, I would press for citizen channels on cable and = over the air as a condition of broadcast licensing. The people should = have their own television channels and their own radio and television = networks, because the people own the airwaves. Four, I would announce = tough enforcement of consumer health, safety and economic-justice laws = throughout the federal government. Crack down on corporate crime, fraud = and abuse. And I'd put all federal contracts and grants above $100,000 = on the Internet: the coal leasing, the gol d leasing, the oil leasing, the NIH giveaways, the defense contracts. = Five, I would press immediately for universal health care. Can I list = more than five? RS--Go for it. N--I think that all students should learn citizen skills in how to = practice democracy, so they can become more powerful in shaping the = future of our country instead of having corporations shape its future. = They should be taught how to use the Freedom of Information Act, how to = do voter profiles of legislators, how to build coalitions, how to do = policy statements, how to put on news conferences. I would use the bully = pulpit to press for all of that, since it can't be mandated. RS--What happened between 1996 and 2000 to cause you to run a full-blown = campaign this time? N--The doors of democracy are closing in this town and around the = country, which has been hijacked by global corporations. They're = dominating almost every sector of our society: the workplace, the = marketplace, the government, the media. They're exploiting and raising = our children with the most vile materials. They're overmedicating our = children with dangerous drugs. Almost nothing is off-limits to the = commercial juggernaut. RS--What about your critics who say that a vote for Nader will help = elect George W. Bush, who would appoint religious crackpots to the = Supreme Court and reverse Roe vs. Wade? N--If they're Progressives and they believe the two-party system is = irretrievably corrupt, and that the differences between the two parties = are narrowing rapidly, and that voting for the least worst every four = years guarantees that both of them will continue to get worse, then why = are they legitimizing this decaying duopoly by giving one of the parties = their vote? The only language a politician understands is to deny him = your vote and put it in another visible column, in this case the Green = Party column. And then the politician will say, "Gee, public sentiment = is shifting, and we'd better react to it; otherwise we're going to lose = even more votes." Beyond that, if they want a tactical answer, Buchanan = will take a lot of Republican votes. And in California in 1996, where I = got 260,000 votes without campaigning, four out of ten votes were from = Republicans. So we're not attracting just Democrats. But the people who make this = argument, what is their standard for abandonment of corrupt politics? = The two-party system has turned our government over to the global = corporations; How bad does it have to get? RS--The issue of abortion drives Progressives. If back to the Democrats = and the religious right back to the Republicans. It's in the interest of = both parties to keep the Supreme Court balanced at 5-4 so people think = their vote counts something. N--Well, think of the low level of expectations of people who see it = like that. You've got military weapons proliferation, massive world = hunger and starvation, global infectious diseases coming this way in = drug-resistant form. You've got the majority of workers in this country = making less money in real terms than they did in 1979, notwithstanding a = booming economy. You've got twenty percent child poverty in this I = country, massive homelessness and inadequate housing. You've got $6.2 = trillion in consumer debt, an epidemic of corporate crime, a labor = movement that's weaker than it's ever been, obstructed by laws that make = it impossible to form trade unions in the private sector. You've got = hundreds of billions of dollars going to corporate welfare every year, = meaning that citizens are gouged not just as consumers but as taxpayers. = And you put this up against Roe vs. Wade. And you say that all these = other things don't count, because you want to preserve Roe vs. Wade. = That is a snare and a delusion. Even in th e unlikely event of the Supreme Court repealing Roe vs. Wade, there = isn't a chance in hell that a state would destroy the Republican Party = by passing restrictions on the pro-life side. The polls are against it. = If the pro-choice people think that the pro-life people are organized = and aggressive, what do you think is going to happen when the shoe is on = the other foot? The power of the pro-life people is miniscule compared = to what will be unleashed if the legislatures try to restrict the right = to abortion. It's never going to happen. RS--Is opposition to the World Trade Organization the central theme of = your campaign? N--Definitely. We were very much involved in the critique of the WTO and = mobilizing people to get them to Seattle. The corporatists knew that = they couldn't repeal all these regulatory laws. So what do they do? They = create a superautocracy out of Geneva that supersedes all our democratic = processes. It subordinates Congress, the environment, child labor, = human rights, all of it, to the dictates of international trade. It's = like a silent coup d'etat. We were up against big business, the Clinton = administration, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the = Washington Post, the Chamber of Commerce, the Association of = Manufacturers, thousands of PACs and all the goodies that Clinton could = drop on wavering members of Congress. And we still almost beat them on = NAFTA [North American Free Trade Agreement], which led to GATT [General = Agreement on Tariffs and Trade], which was the precursor of the WTO. RS--About five years ago, I went to a protest against the International = Monetary Fund in New York, and there were about thirty people there, = from ten different leftist groups who all hated each other. I was = depressed for months. Then Seattle exploded last December with 50,000 = people. What happened? N--Opposition to corporate power is going mainstream. When was the last = time you saw labor, environmental, consumer, student, church and, = human-rights groups all under the same banner? That's very important. = It's not just that there was a big demonstration in Seattle. Look at the = coalition that's forming. That's important, because the corporate state = respects no boundaries. It goes into every sector of society, and it = outrages every sector of society. Even conservatives are outraged. I = asked Bill Bennett, "Do you know that corporations are on a collision = course with conservative principles?" He said, "I agree." Number one = corporate welfare grates on them, and number two, they hate the violent, = pornographic exploitation of children. Nobody ever envisioned that = corporations would be selling to two-and three- and four-year-olds by = separating them from their parents, by teaching them to nag their = parents into buying the most awful things to eat and drink. They = psychoanalyze these kids, figure out at what stage t hey're lonely, when the peer group dominates, et cetera, getting the = child-development psychologists to consult on how best to enter their = minds and bodies. RS--In a recent book, "No Contest: Corporate Lawyers and the Perversion = of justice in America," you wrote about your colleagues at a reunion of = the Harvard Law School class of 1970, who seemed disenchanted with their = lives spent serving rich twits. Your line is, "No one confronted the = psychic costs of serving money rather than ideals." I see those psychic = costs in journalism all the time. N--The most valued human relationships are outside the market, and = everything is up for sale in this country. The market has always been = there, but it's had a relatively narrow role in past centuries. Now it's = corroding all other human values. Ask people to tell you what they own. = You'll wait fifteen minutes while they tell you about their stereo, = their car, their house. You can keep pushing them and they'll never name = what we own in common: public lands, timber, minerals, the public = airwaves. It doesn't occur to them that we own these assets, because = they're entirely controlled by corporations. That's commercialism. I = grew up corporate. I used to look at cars in terms of style: power, = fins, hood ornaments. Growing up civic means you start looking at cars = in terms of safety, fuel efficiency, ease of maintenance and repair, = pollution control. RS--Was there a revelation in your childhood that set you upon your = current path? N--One day I came home from school, when I was about ten. My father = said, "What did you do today in school? Did you learn how to believe, or = did you learn how to think?" My parents were always taking me to the = next step. And where are kids today? As pre- teenagers, they're = spending thirty hours a week in the hands of corporations. Television, = video games, arcades, overmedication, war toys, cosmetics for little = girls. Then the addictive industries hit them: alcohol, tobacco, drugs. = They're spending less time with adults, including their parents, than = any generation in history. We don't pay a penalty for that? Our economy = is designed to take adults away from the household for longer and longer = periods of time--commuting, working longer hours--to make a middle-class = living. The streets are empty in residential areas because people are = working or too tired to do anything. The social clubs are closing down. = There's no one to run for local office or serve on commissions. Nobody = shows up at city council meetings. The figures are that Americans worked 163 more hours last year than = they did twenty years ago, and for less money. This is a period of = unprecedented economic growth and a booming stock market. What do you = think is going to happen to these people when a recession or depression = hits? RS--You once testified in front of a House committee on corporate = welfare. Why do they even let you testify anymore? N--Well, they don't. That was a special case. Most people in this town = who call themselves conservatives are really corporatists. John Kasich, = the chairman of the House Budget Committee, is an actual conservative. = He opposed the B-2 bomber; he opposes corporate welfare. Over a period = of a year and a half, we convinced him to hold the first congressional = hearings on corporate welfare. He invited me to be the lead-off witness. = I wasn't restricted to five minutes, and it was on C-Span. We got a = great reaction, but a lot of his colleagues weren't happy. We're now = working with Kasic's office to develop a joint coalition to eliminate = five corporate-welfare programs, just for starters. If you include tax = loopholes, bailouts, subsidies, technology give-aways and = public-resource giveaways, it comes to hundreds of billions a year. RS--In the Sixties and Seventies, you had a lot of legislators in your = corner. Yet a liberal like Walter Mondale was also a member of the = Trilateral Commission, which issued that famous report saying the United = States had suffered from an "excess of democracy" in the Sixties. Did = you ever feel like you were making a deal with the devil as you worked = with Congress? N--You tend to look at politicians piece-meal. Since you can't enact the = laws, you pick one virtue here and one virtue there, and you don't deal = with them except on your terms. Liberal Republicans in the Senate in = those days--Javitz, Percy, Hatfield--were better than most Democrats are = now. So it's a natural step now to enter the electoral arena. With = corporate power, you've got to go to every front that they're fighting, = or they'll turn your flank and defeat you. You can't just beat them in = court, or they'll override the decision by lobbying something through = the legislature. RS--In 1996, you told the "New York Times," "If I really wanted to beat = Clinton, I would get out, raise $3 or $4 million, and maybe provide the = margin for his defeat. That's not the purpose of this candidacy." Since = you're planning to raise $5 million and run hard this year, does that = mean you would not have a problem providing the margin of defeat for = Gore? N--I would not--not at all. Take every section of the U.S. government = and ask what's the difference between the two parties. Treasury, the = Federal Reserve, Defense, State, Commerce, Labor: In all the departments = and all the regulatory agencies, with the possible slight exception of = the Environmental Protection Agency, there is no difference whatsoever = between the two parties. In some areas, the Democrats are worse. They = got elected by the labor unions, and they've got the most mealy-mouthed, = patsy Labor Department that any Republican would dream of having. The = Occupational Safety and Health Administration is even worse off under = the Democrats. We can't even get the Secretary of Labor to make a speech = on occupational hazards. What else is there? The Institutes of Health = are exactly the same under both parties. They're giving away all the = research and development to the big drug companies, and you know who = reversed the reasonable-price provision that was restraining what the = drug companies could charge? Clinto n. The Department of Energy is still subsidizing fossil and nuclear = fuels. They still have a low priority for solar energy. It's a little = better than under Reagan and Bush, but nothing like you would expect = from the "environmental president and vice president." On social = services? They're cutting low-income housing, strangling legal services. = The administration speaks a better game, but they do not fight a better = game. And the Republicans never subsidized the merger of defense = contractors. That's a Clinton innovation. A billion and a half dollars = he spent in the Pentagon to subsidize the merger of Lockheed Martin. And = now they're doing that for others, on the grounds that there's = overcapacity. But they're knocking out a competitor, so they'll pay even = more for weapons we don't need. The Republicans never thought of that = one.=20 RS--Do you think Gore has lived up to his reputation as an = environmentalist? N--The Clinton administration was worse than the Republicans regarding = the auto industry. When they were running in 1992, they said they were = going to push the auto industry to forty miles per gallon by the year = 2000. But they cut a deal. Clinton and Gore had a press conference in = September 1993 with three big domestic auto companies, and here's the = deal they announced: We'll appropriate a billion dollars in taxpayer = money to help you develop a clean engine, and in return, no antitrust = enforcement against collusion--which means they don't have to compete = the way Honda and Toyota do now over hybrids. And no increase in the = CAFE (antipollution) standards. So eight years go by, and there's not = even a proposal to increase the CAFE standard. Could have done worse? = The average fuel efficiency for all motor vehicles has slid back to 24.5 = miles per gallon, which is where it was in 1980. RS--And yet the Sierra Club has endorsed Gore for president. N--The Sierra Club has had an internal debate on whether to endorse = Gore. I saw a memo from the people who don't want to endorse him, and = they list ten areas where he has betrayed the environmental movement and = his own book. Solar energy, he hasn't pushed. Fossil fuel and nuclear = subsidies, he hasn't fought or criticized. Pesticides, he's beyond = disgrace. Indoor pollution, they've done nothing. Global warming and = ozone depletion, all talk. He supported WTO and NAFTA, which subordinate = environmental and labor concerns to corporate interest by mandate of = their charters. All the little things that they promised in '92 and = didn't do, like saving the Everglades, like the incinerator in northeast = Ohio that they said would never open [but did]. The 1872 Mining Act = gives our minerals away for free, literally for free, and lets the = corporate predators escape without cleaning up their mess, so we have = exhausted gold mines that are full of cyanide all over the West. = Clinton and Gore never stood up and said it shoul d be repealed. Just before I went to Hawaii recently, Clinton issued a = well-timed executive order to preserve the coral reefs, of which there = are more than a few deteriorating in Hawaii. I asked the governor, who's = a Democrat, what he thought of it. "All talk," he said. Let me tell you = something: I'd rather have a provocateur than an anesthetizer in the = White House. Remember what James Watt [Reagan's Secretary of the = Interior] did for the environmental movement? He galvanized it. Gore and = his buddy Clinton are anesthetizers. They give you the rhetoric, they = set aside a few monuments, they set aside a few reserves by executive = order, which has no statutory authority and can easily be pushed aside. = You can't even sue to hold them to it, which you can with a statute. You = know what's amazing about Gore? He just rolled out his energy-efficiency = plan. It's exactly what they said eight years ago. You know the old = proverb, "If you're going to be a liar, you better have a good memory"? = They're both liars, and they=20 bo just don't care. They're shameless. RS--I have a black friend from Harlem who has progressive politics and a = deep suspicion of the white power structure. He told me he voted for = Mayor Giuliani. I said, "How could you vote for a lying thug like that?" = He said, "Because I wanted to vote for a winner." N--That's the main hurdle right there. People want to be with winners. = And what they don't realize is, the more they want to be with winners in = our system of concentrated power, the more losers there are going to be. = It's what I call the ego use of the vote, which only legitimizes the = oligarchy. The two parties know they can tell people, "You wanna be = with a winner? You come with us. You've got nowhere else to go." That's = what the Democrats have been telling all these citizen groups for years = now. You've got nowhere to go. But we know where they're going. That's = why we're drawing the line this year. It's over. It has to be. We may be = the last generation that has to give up so little to achieve so much. Further information on Nader's campaign can be found at = www.votenader.com .=20 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you = end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00F3B.61EA3540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bucky voted even though he understood = the system. I=20 think if Bucky were alive today he would vote for this guy.
 
----------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------------
 
Date:    Fri, 25 Aug = 2000 07:06:27=20 -0600
Subject: 1st 5 things Ralph would do as = President


ROLLING=20 STONE ISSUE 849 -- Rolling Stone Interview of Green Party candidate = Ralph=20 Nader
September 14, 2000

CRASHING THE PARTY
Ralph Nader is = so fed=20 up with corrupt beltway politics that he is willing
to sacrifice Al=20 Gore.

By Charles M. Young


FROM 1965 TO 1980, RALPH = NADER WAS=20 ONE OF the most influential people in the United States. By sheer force = of moral=20 argument, he got Congress to pass a vast array of legislation that = improved bad=20 cars, bad water, bad air, bad working conditions, bad banks and ... = well, you=20 name it. He can take credit for spurring the passage of such landmark = laws as=20 the Freedom of Information Act and the Clean Air Act.

Since 1980, = Nader's=20 career has followed an arc similar to the first half of a Popeye = cartoon. Bluto=20 showed up in the form of President Ronald Reagan.  His = administration=20 refused to enforce laws Nader had inspired and turned the regulatory = agencies=20 into tools of industry. During Clinton's tenure, the signing of NAFTA = and the=20 U.S. entry into the WTO meant that labor and environmental groups could = be=20 slighted in trade negotiations. For twenty years, Washington, D.C., = crust-ed=20 over into a giant Blutocracy.  Nader fired shots across the bow of = the=20 two-party Titanic by introducing himself as a presidential candidate in = 1992 and=20 again in 1996.  Reluctant to siphon off enough progressive votes to = defeat=20 the Democrats, Nader gave a few good speeches and otherwise didn't do = much.=20 Still, the White House watched closely.

"Clinton was very = concerned with=20 Nader's candidacy" in i996, says Dick Morris, Clinton's former adviser = and=20 pollster. "He kept raising it with me and asking whether I thought it = would cost=20 him California. He could not understand how Nader would not draw votes = from him.=20 I don't know that he actually tried to knock Nader off the ballot, but = he was=20 deeply concerned."

This year, Nader is campaigning for real on = the Green=20 Party ticket. The Blutocracy has finally dumped one too many loads of = toxic=20 waste on his head.

"That's all I can stand," was the message when = he=20 announced his candidacy in February. "I can't stands no = more."

Nader's=20 stated goal is to get five percent of the vote, in which case the Greens = would=20 get federal matching funds in 2004. With his campaign just gaining = momentum, he=20 now rates six to seven percent in the polls, three times as much as Pat=20 Buchanan. He and Buchanan are suing to be allowed into the presidential = debates.=20 If they succeed a highly unlikely prospect the entire nation could go = into the=20 same sort of political flux that rearranged Minnesota when Jesse Ventura = was=20 allowed to debate.

A number of ordinarily Democratic = celebro-Americans=20 are supporting Nader: Willie Nelson, Bonnie Raitt, Eddie Vedder, Susan = Sarandon,=20 Paul Newman, Phil Donahue, Jackson Browne. "There's a widespread = assumption that=20 candidates in the two major parties can't say what they believe or they = won't=20 get elected," says Browne, one of the most active of activists in the = musical=20 community. "So the people end up voting on the basis of spin and then = hoping=20 that in a few years the candidate might have done something that they = assumed he=20 believed in but couldn't actually say. It's time to stop this.  = Ralph Nader=20 says what he thinks, he can discuss any issue without a scriptwriter, = and he's=20 the only candidate talking about government handouts to=20 corporations."

RS--How serious are you about running for = president this=20 time?

N--We're trying to get on the ballot in all fifty states. = We're=20 going to show that citizen power can overcome business dol- lars in = election=20 campaigns.

RS--Why didn't you run in the Democratic=20 primaries?

N--Because the party is not capable of internal reform = anymore. It's too far gone into the corporate pits.

RS--What are = the=20 first five things you would do as president?

N--First, I would = declare a=20 pro-democracy initiative - that means public financing of election = campaigns,=20 urge the states to have same-day registration, make voting day a holiday = and a=20 celebration of the democratic process, develop a binding "none of the = above"=20 proposal. People could check "none of the above" on their ballots, and = if that=20 wins, there would have to be another election. Second'  I would = push to=20 remove restrictions that hamper workers from forming trade unions in the = private=20 sector. Third, I would press for citizen channels on cable and over the = air as a=20 condition of broadcast licensing. The people should have their own = television=20 channels and their own radio and television networks, because the people = own the=20 airwaves. Four, I would announce tough enforcement of consumer health, = safety=20 and economic-justice laws throughout the federal government. Crack down = on=20 corporate crime, fraud and abuse. And I'd put all federal contracts and = grants=20 above $100,000 on the Internet: the coal leasing, the gol

d = leasing, the=20 oil leasing, the NIH giveaways, the defense contracts. Five, I would = press=20 immediately for universal health care. Can I list more than = five?

RS--Go=20 for it.

N--I think that all students should learn citizen skills = in how=20 to practice democracy, so they can become more powerful in shaping the = future of=20 our country instead of having corporations shape its future. They should = be=20 taught how to use the Freedom of Information Act, how to do voter = profiles of=20 legislators, how to build coalitions, how to do policy statements, how = to put on=20 news conferences. I would use the bully pulpit to press for all of that, = since=20 it can't be mandated.

RS--What happened between 1996 and 2000 to = cause=20 you to run a full-blown campaign this time?

N--The doors of = democracy are=20 closing in this town and around the country, which has been hijacked by = global=20 corporations. They're dominating almost every sector of our society: the = workplace, the marketplace, the government, the media. They're = exploiting and=20 raising our children with the most vile materials. They're = overmedicating our=20 children with dangerous drugs.  Almost nothing is off-limits to the = commercial juggernaut.

RS--What about your critics who say that a = vote=20 for Nader will help elect George W. Bush, who would appoint religious = crackpots=20 to the Supreme Court and reverse Roe vs. Wade?

N--If they're = Progressives=20 and they believe the two-party system is irretrievably corrupt, and that = the=20 differences between the two parties are narrowing rapidly, and that = voting for=20 the least worst every four years guarantees that both of them will = continue to=20 get worse, then why are they legitimizing this decaying duopoly by = giving one of=20 the parties their vote? The only language a politician understands is to = deny=20 him your vote and put it in another visible column, in this case the = Green Party=20 column. And then the politician will say, "Gee, public sentiment is = shifting,=20 and we'd better react to it; otherwise we're going to lose even more = votes."=20 Beyond that, if they want a tactical answer, Buchanan will take a lot of = Republican votes.  And in California in 1996, where I got 260,000 = votes=20 without campaigning, four out of ten votes were from = Republicans.

So=20 we're not attracting just Democrats. But the people who make this = argument, what=20 is their standard for abandonment of corrupt politics? The two-party = system has=20 turned our government over to the global corporations; How bad does it = have to=20 get?

RS--The issue of abortion drives Progressives. If back to = the=20 Democrats and the religious right back to the Republicans. It's in the = interest=20 of both parties to keep the Supreme Court balanced at 5-4 so people = think their=20 vote counts something.

N--Well, think of the low level of = expectations of=20 people who see it like that. You've got military weapons proliferation, = massive=20 world hunger and starvation, global infectious diseases coming this way = in=20 drug-resistant form. You've got the majority of workers in this country = making=20 less money in real terms than they did in 1979, notwithstanding a = booming=20 economy.  You've got twenty percent child poverty in this I  = country,=20 massive homelessness and inadequate housing. You've got $6.2 trillion in = consumer debt, an epidemic of corporate crime, a labor movement that's = weaker=20 than it's ever been, obstructed by laws that make it impossible to form = trade=20 unions in the private sector. You've got hundreds of billions of dollars = going=20 to corporate welfare every year, meaning that citizens are gouged not = just as=20 consumers but as taxpayers. And you put this up against Roe vs. Wade. = And you=20 say that all these other things don't count, because you want to = preserve Roe=20 vs. Wade. That is a snare and a delusion. Even in th

e unlikely = event of=20 the Supreme Court repealing Roe vs. Wade, there isn't a chance in hell = that a=20 state would destroy the Republican Party by passing restrictions on the = pro-life=20 side. The polls are against it. If the pro-choice people think that the = pro-life=20 people are organized and aggressive, what do you think is going to = happen when=20 the shoe is on the other foot? The power of the pro-life people is = miniscule=20 compared to what will be unleashed if the legislatures try to restrict = the right=20 to abortion.  It's never going to happen.

RS--Is opposition = to the=20 World Trade Organization the central theme of your=20 campaign?

N--Definitely. We were very much involved in the = critique of=20 the WTO and mobilizing people to get them to Seattle. The corporatists = knew that=20 they couldn't repeal all these regulatory laws. So what do they do? They = create=20 a superautocracy out of Geneva that supersedes all our democratic=20 processes.  It subordinates Congress, the environment, child labor, = human=20 rights, all of it, to the dictates of international trade. It's like a = silent=20 coup d'etat.  We were up against big business, the Clinton = administration,=20 the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, the = Chamber of=20 Commerce, the Association of Manufacturers, thousands of PACs and all = the=20 goodies that Clinton could drop on wavering members of Congress. And we = still=20 almost beat them on NAFTA [North American Free Trade Agreement], which = led to=20 GATT [General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade], which was the precursor = of the=20 WTO.

RS--About five years ago, I went to a protest against the=20 International Monetary Fund in New York, and there were about thirty = people=20 there, from ten different leftist groups who all hated each other. I was = depressed for months. Then Seattle exploded last December with 50,000 = people.=20 What happened?

N--Opposition to corporate power is going = mainstream. When=20 was the last time you saw labor, environmental, consumer, student, = church and,=20 human-rights groups all under the same banner? That's very important. = It's not=20 just that there was a big demonstration in Seattle. Look at the = coalition that's=20 forming. That's important, because the corporate state respects no = boundaries.=20 It goes into every sector of society, and it outrages every sector of = society.=20 Even conservatives are outraged. I asked Bill Bennett, "Do you know that = corporations are on a collision course with conservative principles?" He = said,=20 "I agree." Number one corporate welfare grates on them, and number two, = they=20 hate the violent, pornographic exploitation of children. Nobody ever = envisioned=20 that corporations would be selling to two-and three- and four-year-olds = by=20 separating them from their parents, by teaching them to nag their = parents into=20 buying the most awful things to eat and drink. They psychoanalyze these = kids,=20 figure out at what stage t

hey're lonely, when the peer group = dominates,=20 et cetera, getting the child-development psychologists to consult on how = best to=20 enter their minds and bodies.

RS--In a recent book, "No Contest:=20 Corporate Lawyers and the Perversion of justice in America," you wrote = about=20 your colleagues at a reunion of the Harvard Law School class of 1970, = who seemed=20 disenchanted with their lives spent serving rich twits. Your line is, = "No one=20 confronted the psychic costs of serving money rather than ideals." I see = those=20 psychic costs in journalism all the time.

N--The most valued = human=20 relationships are outside the market, and everything is up for sale in = this=20 country. The market has always been there, but it's had a relatively = narrow role=20 in past centuries. Now it's corroding all other human values. Ask people = to tell=20 you what they own. You'll wait fifteen minutes while they tell you about = their=20 stereo, their car, their house. You can keep pushing them and they'll = never name=20 what we own in common: public lands, timber, minerals, the public = airwaves. It=20 doesn't occur to them that we own these assets, because they're entirely = controlled by corporations. That's commercialism. I grew up corporate. I = used to=20 look at cars in terms of style: power, fins, hood ornaments. Growing up = civic=20 means you start looking at cars in terms of safety, fuel efficiency, = ease of=20 maintenance and repair, pollution control.

RS--Was there a = revelation in=20 your childhood that set you upon your current path?

N--One day I = came=20 home from school, when I was about ten. My father said, "What did you do = today=20 in school? Did you learn how to believe, or did you learn how to think?" = My=20 parents were always taking me to the next step.  And where are kids = today?=20 As pre- teenagers, they're spending thirty hours a week in the hands of=20 corporations. Television, video games, arcades, overmedication, war = toys,=20 cosmetics for little girls. Then the addictive industries hit them: = alcohol,=20 tobacco, drugs. They're spending less time with adults, including their = parents,=20 than any generation in history. We don't pay a penalty for that? Our = economy is=20 designed to take adults away from the household for longer and longer = periods of=20 time--commuting, working longer hours--to make a middle-class living. = The=20 streets are empty in residential areas because people are working or too = tired=20 to do anything.  The social clubs are closing down. There's no one = to run=20 for local office or serve on commissions. Nobody shows up at city = council=20 meetings.

 The figures are that Americans worked 163 more = hours last=20 year than they did twenty years ago, and for less money. This is a = period of=20 unprecedented economic growth and a booming stock market. What do you = think is=20 going to happen to these people when a recession or depression=20 hits?

RS--You once testified in front of a House committee on = corporate=20 welfare.  Why do they even let you testify anymore?

N--Well, = they=20 don't. That was a special case. Most people in this town who call = themselves=20 conservatives are really corporatists. John Kasich, the chairman of the = House=20 Budget Committee, is an actual conservative. He opposed the B-2 bomber; = he=20 opposes corporate welfare. Over a period of a year and a half, we = convinced him=20 to hold the first congressional hearings on corporate welfare. He = invited me to=20 be the lead-off witness. I wasn't restricted to five minutes, and it was = on=20 C-Span. We got a great reaction, but a lot of his colleagues weren't = happy.=20 We're now working with Kasic's office to develop a joint coalition to = eliminate=20 five corporate-welfare programs, just for starters. If you include tax=20 loopholes, bailouts, subsidies, technology give-aways and = public-resource=20 giveaways, it comes to hundreds of billions a year.

RS--In the = Sixties=20 and Seventies, you had a lot of legislators in your corner. Yet a = liberal like=20 Walter Mondale was also a member of the Trilateral Commission, which = issued that=20 famous report saying the United States had suffered from an "excess of=20 democracy" in the Sixties. Did you ever feel like you were making a deal = with=20 the devil as you worked with Congress?

N--You tend to look at = politicians=20 piece-meal. Since you can't enact the laws, you pick one virtue here and = one=20 virtue there, and you don't deal with them except on your terms. Liberal = Republicans in the Senate in those days--Javitz, Percy, Hatfield--were = better=20 than most Democrats are now.  So it's a natural step now to enter = the=20 electoral arena. With corporate power, you've got to go to every front = that=20 they're fighting, or they'll turn your flank and defeat you. You can't = just beat=20 them in court, or they'll override the decision by lobbying something = through=20 the legislature.

RS--In 1996, you told the "New York Times," "If = I really=20 wanted to beat Clinton, I would get out, raise $3 or $4 million, and = maybe=20 provide the margin for his defeat. That's not the purpose of this=20 candidacy."  Since you're planning to raise $5 million and run hard = this=20 year, does that mean you would not have a problem providing the margin = of defeat=20 for Gore?

N--I would not--not at all. Take every section of the = U.S.=20 government and ask what's the difference between the two parties. = Treasury, the=20 Federal Reserve, Defense, State, Commerce, Labor: In all the departments = and all=20 the regulatory agencies, with the possible slight exception of the = Environmental=20 Protection Agency, there is no difference whatsoever between the two = parties. In=20 some areas, the Democrats are worse. They got elected by the labor = unions, and=20 they've got the most mealy-mouthed, patsy Labor Department that any = Republican=20 would dream of having. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration = is even=20 worse off under the Democrats. We can't even get the Secretary of Labor = to make=20 a speech on occupational hazards. What else is there? The Institutes of = Health=20 are exactly the same under both parties. They're giving away all the = research=20 and development to the big drug companies, and you know who reversed the = reasonable-price provision that was restraining what the drug companies = could=20 charge? Clinto

n. The Department of Energy is still subsidizing = fossil=20 and nuclear fuels. They still have a low priority for solar energy. It's = a=20 little better than under Reagan and Bush, but nothing like you would = expect from=20 the "environmental president and vice president." On social services? = They're=20 cutting low-income housing, strangling legal services. The = administration speaks=20 a better game, but they do not fight a better game. And the Republicans = never=20 subsidized the merger of defense contractors. That's a Clinton = innovation. A=20 billion and a half  dollars he spent in the Pentagon to subsidize = the=20 merger of Lockheed Martin. And now they're doing that for others, on the = grounds=20 that there's overcapacity. But they're knocking out a competitor, so = they'll pay=20 even more for weapons we don't need. The Republicans never thought of = that one.=20

RS--Do you think Gore has lived up to his reputation as an=20 environmentalist?

N--The Clinton administration was worse than = the=20 Republicans regarding the auto industry. When they were running in 1992, = they=20 said they were going to push the auto industry to forty miles per gallon = by the=20 year 2000. But they cut a deal. Clinton and Gore had a press conference = in=20 September 1993 with three big domestic auto companies, and here's the = deal they=20 announced: We'll appropriate a billion dollars in taxpayer money to help = you=20 develop a clean engine, and in return, no antitrust enforcement against=20 collusion--which means they don't have to compete the way Honda and = Toyota do=20 now over hybrids. And no increase in the CAFE (antipollution) standards. = So=20 eight years go by, and there's not even a proposal to increase the CAFE=20 standard. Could have done worse? The average fuel efficiency for all = motor=20 vehicles has slid back to 24.5 miles per gallon, which is where it was = in=20 1980.

RS--And yet the Sierra Club has endorsed Gore for=20 president.

N--The Sierra Club has had an internal debate on = whether to=20 endorse Gore.  I saw a memo from the people who don't want to = endorse him,=20 and they list ten areas where he has betrayed the environmental movement = and his=20 own book.  Solar energy, he hasn't pushed. Fossil fuel and nuclear=20 subsidies, he hasn't fought or criticized. Pesticides, he's beyond = disgrace.=20 Indoor pollution, they've done nothing. Global warming and ozone = depletion, all=20 talk. He supported WTO and NAFTA, which subordinate environmental and = labor=20 concerns to corporate interest by mandate of their charters. All the = little=20 things that they promised in '92 and didn't do, like saving the = Everglades, like=20 the incinerator in northeast Ohio that they said would never open [but=20 did].  The 1872 Mining Act gives our minerals away for free, = literally for=20 free, and lets the corporate predators escape without cleaning up their = mess, so=20 we have exhausted gold mines that are full of cyanide all over the = West. =20 Clinton and Gore never stood up and said it shoul

d be repealed. = Just=20 before I went to Hawaii recently, Clinton issued a well-timed executive = order to=20 preserve the coral reefs, of which there are more than a few = deteriorating in=20 Hawaii. I asked the governor, who's a Democrat, what he thought of = it. =20 "All talk," he said. Let me tell you something: I'd rather have a = provocateur=20 than an anesthetizer in the White House. Remember what James Watt = [Reagan's=20 Secretary of the Interior] did for the environmental movement? He = galvanized it.=20 Gore and his buddy Clinton are anesthetizers.  They give you the = rhetoric,=20 they set aside a few monuments, they set aside a few reserves by = executive=20 order, which has no statutory authority and can easily be pushed aside. = You=20 can't even sue to hold them to it, which you can with a statute. You = know what's=20 amazing about Gore? He just rolled out his energy-efficiency plan. It's = exactly=20 what they said eight years ago. You know the old proverb, "If you're = going to be=20 a liar, you better have a good memory"? They're both liars, and they=20

bo
 just don't care. They're shameless.

RS--I = have a=20 black friend from Harlem who has progressive politics and a deep = suspicion of=20 the white power structure. He told me he voted for Mayor Giuliani. I = said, "How=20 could you vote for a lying thug like that?" He said, "Because I wanted = to vote=20 for a winner."

N--That's the main hurdle right there. People want = to be=20 with winners.  And what they don't realize is, the more they want = to be=20 with winners in our system of concentrated power, the more losers there = are=20 going to be. It's what I call the ego use of the vote, which only = legitimizes=20 the oligarchy.  The two parties know they can tell people, "You = wanna be=20 with a winner?  You come with us. You've got nowhere else to go." = That's=20 what the Democrats have been telling all these citizen groups for years = now.=20 You've got nowhere to go. But we know where they're going. That's why = we're=20 drawing the line this year. It's over. It has to be. We may be the last=20 generation that has to give up so little to achieve so = much.

Further=20 information on Nader's campaign can be found at www.votenader.com
<http://www.votenader.com> .=20

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~
One=20 of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end = up=20 being governed by your inferiors. =20 -Plato
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~~~


------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C00F3B.61EA3540-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:00:55 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: Re crying shame. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C00F3C.2479F280" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C00F3C.2479F280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yup, it sure is. I wonder who's responsible for screwing this up? > Motorola said Wednesday it was finalizing a schedule to destroy > the 66 satellites of Iridium LLC because the bankrupt satellite > telephone it backed failed to find a buyer. Iridium spent close > to $5 billion building the first-ever satellite phone service > capable of transmitting calls anywhere on Earth's surface. > > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38424,00.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >From what I understand the system is analog, that's why it's inoperable. Mark ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C00F3C.2479F280 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yup, it sure is. I wonder who's = responsible for=20 screwing this up?


> Motorola said Wednesday it was = finalizing a=20 schedule to destroy
> the 66 satellites of Iridium LLC because the = bankrupt satellite
> telephone it backed failed to find a buyer. = Iridium=20 spent close
> to $5 billion building the first-ever satellite = phone=20 service
> capable of transmitting calls anywhere on Earth's=20 surface.
>
> http://w= ww.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38424,00.html
----------------------------------------------------------------= -------
 
From what I understand the system is = analog, that's=20 why it's inoperable.
 
Mark
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C00F3C.2479F280-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:55:40 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Ralph Nader quotes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "I grew up corporate. I used to look at cars in terms of style: power, fins, hood ornaments. Growing up civic means you start looking at cars in terms of safety, fuel efficiency, ease of maintenance and repair, pollution control." -- Ralph Nader "We may be the last generation that has to give up so little to achieve so much." -- Ralph Nader ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:07:40 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C00F4D.D9781D40" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C00F4D.D9781D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "I grew up corporate. I used to look at cars in terms of style: power, fins, hood ornaments. Growing up civic means you start looking at cars in terms of safety, fuel efficiency, ease of maintenance and repair, pollution control." -- Ralph Nader "We may be the last generation that has to give up so little to achieve so much." -- Ralph Nader -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Spaceship et all. I believe we can have it all through design science. To me in some cases = it seems like people in general believe there has to be a trade off, = that they have to give up something. I don't believe that to be the = case. I think high quality high performance in auto's as well as homes = is possible. To me, right now Nader makes the most sense. I could = possibly straighten him out on some points if given a chance. : ) Mark ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C00F4D.D9781D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"I grew up corporate. I used to look at = cars in=20 terms of style:
power, fins, hood ornaments. Growing up civic means = you=20 start
looking at cars in terms of safety, fuel efficiency, ease=20 of
maintenance and repair, pollution control." -- Ralph = Nader

"We may=20 be the last generation that has to give up so little to
achieve so = much." --=20 Ralph Nader
 
----------------------------------------------------------------= --------------
 
Spaceship et all.
 
I believe we can have it all through = design=20 science. To me in some cases it seems like people in general believe = there has=20 to be a trade off, that they have to give up something. I don't believe = that to=20 be the case. I think high quality high performance in auto's as well as = homes is=20 possible. To me, right now Nader makes the most sense. I could possibly=20 straighten him out on some points if given a chance. : )
 
Mark
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C00F4D.D9781D40-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:49:25 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I know there are around two hundred subscribers to geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 10:43:53 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Fischbeck" Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 10:49 AM Subject: Head count > I know there are around two hundred subscribers to > geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we > are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 11:28:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: Re: Head count In-Reply-To: <20000826174925.25245.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dexter Graphic here and reporting for duty sir. > I know there are around two hundred subscribers to > geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we > are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 08:10:57 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Nader Rolling Stone interview <> Brian Q. Hutchings 26-AUG-2000 8:10 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us I can't stands Ralph's populist campaigns, no more! just look at his following statement, and ask, Why has he not decried the DNC's nullification of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 -- and how about those Rolling Stoners? wouldn't it be interesting for them, to interview the chief basher of "sex/drugs/rock'n'roll counter- culture" from the '68ers?... sd it is, Lyn is the most anti-establishment candidate, out there, although Ralph could at least supply him with an itneresting debating- partner. and, of course, we still have a political prisoner of the Bush Administration, serving a 77-year sentence in the Commonwealth of Virginia slammer, for "securities fraud" as thereat retroactively defined (the case upon which this political loan was so-defined, was later declared a "constructive fraud upon the court" by the original judge, and vacated !-) waht'd Bucky say about democracy, now? --The duke of Oil! http://wwwq.tarpley.net/bushb.htm thus quoth: N--The doors of democracy are closing in this town and around the = country, which has been hijacked by global corporations. They're = thus quoth: RS--Is opposition to the World Trade Organization the central theme of = your campaign? see?... the problem is, Ralph does not really grok the significance of the word, republic, just as neither Gush nor Bor do; he ausually uses the phrase, "a democracy," which would include England, most laughably, in the same category. ("globalization" is the same as "free trade," is the relationship of the Empire to its colonies, "period.") ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 16:03:30 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Mike Nuess Subject: Re: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dick Fischbeck wrote: > I know there are around two hundred subscribers to > geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we > are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 18:52:58 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! In-Reply-To: <000e01c00f80$26f38d20$3b93a6d8@intch.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" ArialSpaceship et all. ArialI believe we can have it all through design science. To me in some cases it seems like people in general believe there has to be a trade off, that they have to give up something. I don't believe that to be the case. I think high quality high performance in auto's as well as homes is possible. To me, right now Nader makes the most sense. I could possibly straighten him out on some points if given a chance. : ) ArialMark <<<<<<<< What some USAers consider "the American dream": RVs pulling SUVs. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:37:06 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit People resist and protest change because they will have to give up something. They will have to give up their jobs in outdated industries, for instance, and take new jobs. They fear that change. People gravitate to what they are accustomed to, even when better opportunities may be available. We have to give up what we don't need in order to accept greater opportunities. We have to give up the past to accept the opportunities that we have now. That's a lot to ask of people that are entrenched in their old, established ways, and aggressively protect what they have established. And we can't have it all, in the sense that, we can't have waste and efficiency at the same time, and a lot of industries resist initiatives that would reduce waste, and require them to install new equipment that would increase efficiency. A bottle plant will give lip service to recycling, but vigorously oppose requiring a deposit on bottles that would greatly increase recycling. These are meager examples, but stacked up, they are significant in why this world doesn't work for the benefit of humanity. I think design science people may be too logical to understand the illogical nature of human nature that is a roadblock to change for the better. Humans are not logical, they are emotional. Remember Spock? The only way to breakthrough to illogical humans is with symbols, myths, stories and such that play on human's emotions and alter their perceptions in a way to adapt to and accept change. Without it, technology and design science is going to be slow go. > marksomers wrote: > > "I grew up corporate. I used to look at cars in terms of style: > power, fins, hood ornaments. Growing up civic means you start > looking at cars in terms of safety, fuel efficiency, ease of > maintenance and repair, pollution control." -- Ralph Nader > > "We may be the last generation that has to give up so little to > achieve so much." -- Ralph Nader > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Spaceship et all. > > I believe we can have it all through design science. To me in > some cases it seems like people in general believe there has to > be a trade off, that they have to give up something. I don't > believe that to be the case. I think high quality high > performance in auto's as well as homes is possible. To me, > right now Nader makes the most sense. I could possibly > straighten him out on some points if given a chance. : ) > > Mark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 22:39:33 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh lord, don't fill my inbox with 200 of these messages. I delete a lot of messages unread, and this was almost one of them. Dick Fischbeck wrote: > > I know there are around two hundred subscribers to > geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we > are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 23:46:20 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > People resist and protest change because they will have to give > up something. They will have to give up their jobs in outdated Sometimes...only sometimes. Think of e-mail. It's a very new way of communicating, and yet it has been widely adopted by the public, in a very short time. It is also growing, to include multi- media email, and even the long promised "videophone" function which the phone company seems to have been unable to provide. Granted, email had been around for 20+ years before the general population accepted it, but once they did... Ditto web sites. That genuinely is new -- HTML is less than 10 years old, if memory serves. The web morphed from a research tool into an online community, and has been widely accepted worldwide. Don't count people out when it comes to change. It could just be that the change has to be "cool" to be accepted. We might also need to target kids -- they're tomorrow's homeowners. (refer to the prior discussion on design vs style, blueberry iDomes) > change. People gravitate to what they are accustomed to, even > when better opportunities may be available. We have to give up Or to what they see to be the better choice. Sometimes the better choice loses (BetaMax vs VHS) and sometimes it wins (email vs "pen pals"). > We > have to give up the past to accept the opportunities that we have > now. Why? We have many classical examples of structures which include domes and other curved "parts." Especially temples, domed churches, cathedrals, and the traditional architecture of the middle east. Notable examples of domed churches include the Dome on the Rock and Hagia Sophia. The Pantheon is another perfect example. Curves, such as the elegant flying buttresses at Notre Dame cathedral, introduce curved exoskeletons -- not dissimilar to the look of a geodesic dome. The inner framework, especially on the ceilings, is curved and quite elegant, and also resembles the hub and strut structure of the geodesic dome. Some are even triangulated. (Yes, I love classical architecture...does it show?) We have plenty of classical and elegant looking structures which we recognize, instinctually, as being classic. We don't have to give up classicism in order to embrace the geodesic dome. HOWEVER, as I postulated in another thread, perhaps we need to utterly abandon classicism, and produce a space pod with virtually no resemblance to classical structures. This will take enormous creativity -- the literal construction of a new style of architecture and almost a new style of life, but one which makes so much sense that the initial reaction is "of course!" Remember -- the classical competition has been evolving for 5000+ years. It's going to be tough to compete with that... > that is a roadblock to change for the better. Humans are not > logical, they are emotional. Remember Spock? The only way to > breakthrough to illogical humans is with symbols, myths, stories > and such that play on human's emotions and alter their > perceptions in a way to adapt to and accept change. Without it, > technology and design science is going to be slow go. A good point. However, it is possible that we need to approach this from an advertising and marketing standpoint, rather than from a design science viewpoint. Look at it this way. We have the geodesic dome -- a construction system which is capable of doing more with less, and which is acceptable to housing authorities worldwide. We have the octet truss, which can be used for interior partitions and structural members, i.e. floors. We have manufacturing technologies which can produce virtually any form we can imagine -- furniture and "finishing" can be taken care of easily. Just mass produce something shaped appropriately. Now -- WHY DON'T THESE THINGS SELL TO THE AVERAGE BUYER? Here's my thought. We try to sell them as the housing system of the future, capable of doing more with less, presenting a surface area appx 30% less than traditional construction, etc. This is all well and good...to you and me! But most people don't think in terms of energy (except for windows vs insulation), or materials efficiency. There's another way to sell it, which may work better. Spacious, flexible layout, vaulted / cathedral ceilings, open floorplans, huge picture windows. More space for less money. Secondary sell might include cheaper utility bills. Getting the idea? It doesn't sound like the "60's hippie" geodesic dome, or the "commercial arena" geodesic dome. It's not counter- culture, or even particularly "different." It sounds like the average concept for a modern dream home. Various styles of homes have come and gone through the years, including the singularly unattractive '50s ranch house -- they were what filled the perceived needs of the buyers in their time. The time of the dome may be upon us. Dwindling lumber resources, alternative construction techniques going mainstream (steel studs, molded concrete in foam forms, sprayed foam), and most importantly a growing environmental sensitivity might just be enough to push the dome to mainstream status. Fewer materials to create an even larger home at lower cost? Makes sense to me... -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 02:45:34 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dave Buck Subject: Re: Head count Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------- >From: Dick Fischbeck >To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic >Subject: Head count >Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000, 10:49 AM > > I know there are around two hundred subscribers to > geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we > are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. > Dick > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 06:16:09 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some time ago, a prominent organization made a public pronouncement that the world could only sustain a population of 2 billion people based on the USA model of production and consumption, less than one third the size of the world's present population, and one-fifth the projected 10 billion population the world is expected to grow to before population numbers stabilize. SpaceshipEarth@mail.com wrote: > > I don't remember where I got that, but I've seen similar > statements several times. Live like Americans, produce like > Americans, consume like Americans, there isn't enough resources > for the world to do it. The USA is the model the whole world > looks at for a high standard of living. Changing our way of > providing a high standard of living, is a must. > > Dick Fischbeck wrote: > > > > Earth- The premiss that we need twice as much of > > everything is mysterious. Where'd you get that? > > --- SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM wrote: > > > For all the people of the world to enjoy the same > > > standard of > > > living as Americans and Canadians do, we'd need two > > > more earths > > > to support this lifestyle with presently used > > > technology. Two > > > more earths or a few Spaceship Earth Science Cities, > > > these are > > > our options. What do you think? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 10:18:26 -0500 Reply-To: waux@genevaonline.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Glenn Norgren Subject: Re: Head count In-Reply-To: <200008270944.CAA09414@silcon.silcon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Dave Buck Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 4:46 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Head count ---------- >From: Dick Fischbeck >To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic >Subject: Head count >Date: Sat, Aug 26, 2000, 10:49 AM > > I know there are around two hundred subscribers to > geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we > are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. > Dick > _____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______ http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:10:41 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth In-Reply-To: <39A8B227.F6440496@mail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since America's high standard of living is based on its economic exploitation of artificially cheap labor and resources elsewhere, this supposedly sustainable population of 2 billion would not work. In my opinion, the pursuit of shortsighted selfishness and greed is unsustainable at any population level. I expect the American way of life to self-destruct. Unless, of course, a major redesign of its social, political, legal, and economic systems in undertaken soon. > -----Original Message----- > From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of > SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 23:16 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth > > > Some time ago, a prominent organization made a public > pronouncement that the world could only sustain a population of 2 > billion people based on the USA model of production and > consumption, less than one third the size of the world's present > population, and one-fifth the projected 10 billion population the > world is expected to grow to before population numbers stabilize. > > SpaceshipEarth@mail.com wrote: > > > > I don't remember where I got that, but I've seen similar > > statements several times. Live like Americans, produce like > > Americans, consume like Americans, there isn't enough resources > > for the world to do it. The USA is the model the whole world > > looks at for a high standard of living. Changing our way of > > providing a high standard of living, is a must. > > > > Dick Fischbeck wrote: > > > > > > Earth- The premiss that we need twice as much of > > > everything is mysterious. Where'd you get that? > > > --- SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM wrote: > > > > For all the people of the world to enjoy the same > > > > standard of > > > > living as Americans and Canadians do, we'd need two > > > > more earths > > > > to support this lifestyle with presently used > > > > technology. Two > > > > more earths or a few Spaceship Earth Science Cities, > > > > these are > > > > our options. What do you think? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 05:04:28 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities Comments: To: synergeo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been developing the idea of promoting geodesic, tensegrity, space-frame and cable structures as, "The Structure of the New Economy." I believe that when we begin to replace, in mass, our outdated infrastructure with these types of structures, than the New Economy will begin to kick in. It's just old economy until then. Since the digital economy is all about electromagnets, I was trying to play on that, and this is one of the most important points I'm trying to make. I was under the impression that tensegrity, and related structures, derive their structural integrity from the electromagnetic nature of matter, and this is what gives them their strength, resiliency, and lightness. But I haven't been able to clarify this idea. Can anybody help me with this? I haven't been able to find anything in Fuller's writing that clarifies this for me. I may not have derived that idea from Fuller's writing. It may have come from other sources. I did find these references in Synergetics. In tensegrity, gravitation or electromagnetism produce the ultimate tension forces. (761.03) Tensegrity describes a structural-relationship in which the structural shape is guaranteed by the tensional behaviors of the system and not by the behavior of the compressional members. (700.011) And last question, what other comparably efficient structures would you describe as basic Structures of the New Economy? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:48:11 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----Original Message----- From: Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 12:49 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Head count I know there are around two hundred subscribers to geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 07:54:03 -0700 Reply-To: bward@metro.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bruce M Ward Organization: Polymath Productions Subject: Re: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One reader/lurker/occassional contributor, checking in. Dick Fischbeck wrote: > > I know there are around two hundred subscribers to > geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we > are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:47:50 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear SS, Here are some references that may be able to help you (scroll down to "Tensegrity"): http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Tem-Tetq.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 10:04 PM Subject: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities > I've been developing the idea of promoting geodesic, tensegrity, > space-frame and cable structures as, "The Structure of the New > Economy." I believe that when we begin to replace, in mass, our > outdated infrastructure with these types of structures, than the > New Economy will begin to kick in. It's just old economy until > then. Since the digital economy is all about electromagnets, I > was trying to play on that, and this is one of the most important > points I'm trying to make. > > I was under the impression that tensegrity, and related > structures, derive their structural integrity from the > electromagnetic nature of matter, and this is what gives them > their strength, resiliency, and lightness. But I haven't been > able to clarify this idea. Can anybody help me with this? I > haven't been able to find anything in Fuller's writing that > clarifies this for me. I may not have derived that idea from > Fuller's writing. It may have come from other sources. > > I did find these references in Synergetics. > > In tensegrity, gravitation or electromagnetism produce the > ultimate tension forces. (761.03) > > Tensegrity describes a structural-relationship in which the > structural shape is guaranteed by the tensional behaviors of the > system and not by the behavior of the compressional members. (700.011) > > And last question, what other comparably efficient structures > would you describe as basic Structures of the New Economy? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:34:53 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1189641421-967480493=:29289" --0-1189641421-967480493=:29289 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Dexter Graphic wrote:> Since America's high standard of living is based on> its economic> exploitation of artificially cheap labor and> resources elsewhere,> this supposedly sustainable population of 2 billion> would not work.> cutThe standard of living in the states has a lot more to do with the metaphysical or weightless resourses employed than anything else. I for one do not expect anything to crash. I think we are getting closer to being past the threat of nuclear war, the biggest crash of them all. People reform when the environment is redesigned. More with less eternally. Machines will continue to do more and more drudge work. Recycling resources and converting to a solar energy supply takes care of physical part of wealth. --0-1189641421-967480493=:29289 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii --- Dexter Graphic wrote: > Since America's high standard of living is based on > its economic > exploitation of artificially cheap labor and > resources elsewhere, > this supposedly sustainable population of 2 billion > would not work. > cut The standard of living in the states has a lot more to do with the metaphysical or weightless resourses employed than anything else. I for one do not expect anything to crash. I think we are getting closer to being past the threat of nuclear war, the biggest crash of them all. People reform when the environment is redesigned. More with less eternally. Machines will continue to do more and more drudge work. Recycling resources and converting to a solar energy supply takes care of physical part of wealth. --0-1189641421-967480493=:29289-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:42:15 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C0110E.EC52BDD6" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0110E.EC52BDD6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree. Technology is constantly changing and the rate of change is exponential. We've done more in the last 50 years than all of time before that. Steve O -----Original Message----- From: Dick Fischbeck [mailto:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 11:35 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth --- Dexter Graphic wrote: > Since America's high standard of living is based on > its economic > exploitation of artificially cheap labor and > resources elsewhere, > this supposedly sustainable population of 2 billion > would not work. > cut The standard of living in the states has a lot more to do with the metaphysical or weightless resourses employed than anything else. I for one do not expect anything to crash. I think we are getting closer to being past the threat of nuclear war, the biggest crash of them all. People reform when the environment is redesigned. More with less eternally. Machines will continue to do more and more drudge work. Recycling resources and converting to a solar energy supply takes care of physical part of wealth. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C0110E.EC52BDD6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I agree.  Technology is constantly changing and the rate of change is exponential.  We've done more in the last 50 years than all of time before that.
 
Steve O
-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Fischbeck [mailto:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 11:35 AM
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth

--- Dexter Graphic wrote: 
 > Since America's high standard of living is based on 
 > its economic > exploitation of artificially cheap labor and 
 > resources elsewhere, 
 > this supposedly sustainable population of 2 billion 
 > would not work. 
 
 cut
 The standard of living in the states has a lot more to do with the metaphysical or weightless resourses employed than anything else. I for one do not expect anything to crash. I think we are getting closer to being past the threat of nuclear war, the biggest crash of them all. People reform when the environment is redesigned. More with less eternally. Machines will continue to do more and more drudge work. Recycling resources and converting to a solar energy supply takes care of physical part of wealth.
------_=_NextPart_001_01C0110E.EC52BDD6-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:26:51 -0500 Reply-To: cstoffregen@madison.tec.wi.us Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chuck Organization: Madison Area Technical College Subject: Re: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony Kalenak wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] > Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 12:49 PM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Head count > > I know there are around two hundred subscribers to > geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we > are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 13:57:18 -0400 Reply-To: Paul Pomeroy Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Paul Pomeroy Subject: Re: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Paul ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:16:47 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nelson Kruger Subject: Re: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Count me in. Later!! cyberclone.... Around the World in 60 seconds Surfing the Net and Browsing the Web from his Haven in the Heavens in the City of Angels! ICQ # 1951983 http://home.earthlink.net/~cyberclone ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:43:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Head count In-Reply-To: <002301c0111c$220b5b60$44ccb3d1@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" candid camera shot of urner scratching chin, yawning. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:34:43 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Lee Bonnifield Subject: Re: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3050339683_1637707_MIME_Part" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3050339683_1637707_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Since the digital economy is all about electromagnets An electromagnet is typically made by wrapping a coil of wire around an iron core. When an electric current is passed thru the wire, the core becomes temporarily magnetized. If you add a switch that is pulled into one position or the other when the magnetic field is active, you have a relay. This was an important gadget during the 40's and 50's for making early computers. I don't think electromagnets have much to do with the digital economy since relays were replaced by transistors. > I was under the impression that tensegrity, and related > structures, derive their structural integrity from the > electromagnetic nature of matter, and this is what gives them > their strength, resiliency, and lightness. The electromagnetic nature of matter is responsible for tensile and compressive strength at the atomic level. Those strengths are used more intelligently in tensegrity than in other structures, but other structures also get their strength from their electromagnetic nature. The uniqueness of tensegrity comes from the geometry of the components at the macro scale, not from the atomic scale which the material has in all forms of construction. --MS_Mac_OE_3050339683_1637707_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities
>  Since the digital economy is all about electromagne= ts

An electromagnet is typically made by wrapping a coil of wire around an iro= n core. When an electric current is passed thru the wire, the core becomes t= emporarily magnetized.  If you add a switch that is pulled into one pos= ition or the other  when the magnetic field is active, you have a relay= . This was an important gadget during the 40's and 50's for making early com= puters. I don't think electromagnets have much to do with the digital econom= y since relays were replaced by transistors.

> I was under the impression that tensegrity, and related
> structures, derive their structural integrity from the
> electromagnetic nature of matter, and this is what gives them
> their strength, resiliency, and lightness.

The electromagnetic nature of matter is responsible for tensile and compres= sive strength at the atomic level. Those strengths are used more intelligent= ly in tensegrity than in other structures, but other structures also get the= ir strength from their electromagnetic nature. The uniqueness of tensegrity = comes from the geometry of the components at the macro scale, not from the a= tomic scale which the material has in all forms of construction. --MS_Mac_OE_3050339683_1637707_MIME_Part-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 22:27:56 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lee Bonnifield wrote: > > > Since the digital economy is all about > electromagnets That was a typographical error. I meant to say electromagnetism. > The electromagnetic nature of matter is responsible > for tensile and compressive strength at the atomic > level. 'All structures, properly understood, from the solar system to the atom, are tensegrity structures.' (Synergetics, 700.04) I do understand, as Fuller has explained, that the primary force operational in all structures, at the invisible atomic level, is tension. > Those strengths are used more intelligently in > tensegrity than in other structures, but other > structures also get their strength from their > electromagnetic nature. This is the impression I had in my mind about tensegrities, so my investigation is really to discover the relationship between tension and electromagnetism. > The uniqueness of tensegrity > comes from the geometry of the components at the > macro scale, not from the atomic scale which the > material has in all forms of construction. Yes, tensegrity models are, as I understand, a visible model of the universal forces (tensional integrity) found at the micro-macro scale, that are inherent in all structures, from the atom to the cosmos. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 02:50:44 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Computers, electronics, and the internet have fueled the growth of the information economy over many years, and are recognized as the foundation of the so called New Economy. The digital economy is based on digital computers, which operate on the principles of electromagnetism. Oops, we seem to have fallen off the list. Let me put it back on. Charles J Knight wrote: > > > > > Since the digital economy is all about > > > electromagnets > > > > That was a typographical error. I meant to say electromagnetism. > > ??? > > The digital economy is about electromagnetism? I thought it > was about information, which can be encoded all sorts of ways. > > Electrons (and photons) are used to transport the information, > and marks on paper are the most common way to express it, > but the information itself is the valuable commodity. > > -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 03:06:03 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen O'Shaughnessy wrote: > > OK, Now you've defined Standard of Living and Lifestyle, in general. I'll > accept those definitions. > > But you still have not stated why you think it will take "two more earth to > support this lifestyle with presently used technology". And you still have > not defined the lifestyle specifically. You can't raise the lifestyle of > the world unless you know what it is you are trying to do. Calling > something an American (or Canadian) lifestyle is not enough. Our main objective is raising the standard of living for the poor. The reason why the Earth can't support a USA lifestyle for all humans on earth is because of over consumption, inefficient resource utilization, not enough recycling, and just plain waste. > I know you > think I'm asking for to much detail, that I should be shot for slowing up > the works. We'll just reassign you to another project, in Siberia! > But you have provide absolutely nothing in the form of a > direction other than to say we need to find two more earths. Oh, but I did offer another direction, the Spaceship Earth Science City! Ok! Now you want me to draw a blueprint for that. I'm working on it, but we'll have to resurrect the engineers to finish that one. Kirby's also working on the same idea, which he calls Earthala, so there's hope. > I take acception to your catagorization that "Across the country, lifestyles > vary slightly..." In New York City few people own cars. Mass transit is > highly developed (for the US anyhow). In Los Angeles, few people don't own > cars. Mass transit is non-existant. Given the cost for roads, the cost in > air quality, the fact that buying and owning a car can be the second largest > expense a person can have (after owning a home). I would say that > difference in lifestyles between New York and Los Angeles is significant on > that point alone. Compared to Waco, where I'm from, they both have excellent public transportation. For our purpose, we're using thumbnail averages for the entire USA. In my estimate, the two cities have relatively comparable quality of food, water, energy, housing, health care and education. But we're not concerned with difference, we're concerned with USA averages, for our purpose. > I'm dogging this thread for one simple reason. Ok! It's not my imagination, you're dogging it! > I believe that the biggest > problem facing the earths population is the mistaken belief that there is > not enough to go around. There isn't enough to go around the way we're using our resources. We have to increase efficiency, recycle, and manage resources better. > Your statement that it would take two more earths > to sustain us at an acceptable level trips one of my triggers. That wasn't the implications of the statement. We could all live on the moon in luxury if we applied the know-how to do it. The know how for sustaining all humanity at a high standard of living was implied by the comment about the Spaceship Earth Science City. > Indeed, its > American technology that can and has provide the means to raise the standard > of living of the world. And the world looks to Americans for leadership. America must take a leadership role in achieving complete physical success for all humanity. > Steve O > > -----Original Message----- > From: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com [mailto:SpaceshipEarth@mail.com] > Sent: Friday, August 25, 2000 4:52 PM > To: Stephen O'Shaughnessy > Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth > > Standard of living and lifestyle aren't necessarily the same > thing. Standard of living refers to quality of food, water, > health, education, and housing. Lifestyle may mean that you like > to ride the drag in your sports car on Saturday night. To a > significant degree, much of the world's population want's to > emulate the US lifestyle and standard of living. American are > motivated by the same human drives, the same human nature as the > rest of the world's cultures. Humans have more in common than > they do differences. So when given the opportunity, people tend > to gravitate to the same behaviors. As explained in the Working > Model for Spaceship Earth papers, recently posted, technology > transfers, to be successful, must be adapted to social needs and customs. > > To support an American standard of living worldwide it would take > more than one earth to produce the same quantity of goods and > services using the same resources and technology used in the USA. > > Across the country, lifestyles vary slightly, but "average" > standards of living "normally" don't vary significantly across > the country. Cost of living compared to wages earned don't vary > that much either. More simplification, of course, but the issue > is irrelevant to me. > > I've certainly seen big smiles on the faces of people clothed in > dirty rags, living in filthy hovels without sanitation or potable > water. A high standard of living is easy to quantify. Lifestyle > will vary. I think you're one of those engineers we need to > shoot. > > The question becomes one, not of standard of living, but of > lifestyle choices. Will people adapt to living in energy and > materials efficient dwelling machines, or will they continue to > insist on living in the standard primitive American hovel? Many > people say the later. > > I recently read an article about England's socialized health > care. The question was, when people at all economic levels > receive nearly the same level of health care, why has the > standard of health of the lower economic class not significantly > improved. The main reason is lifestyle. The less educated smoke, > drink, eat less quality food, and exercise less. They have a high > standard of health care, but educational standard is just as significant. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 03:22:21 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles J Knight wrote: > > It's also an unfamiliar style of house, which means that it won't > be immediately welcomed into traditional neighborhoods. We > need to figure out how to make attractive neighborhoods with > these things, so that they don't represent a "blight" on the > landscape, to our potential customers. I don't think you can fit a dwelling machine into a traditional urban neighborhood. But I can assure you that the day will come when dwelling machines will be required by the city code, just like trailer houses are often prohibited. I've seen some illustrations of dwellings that were slightly rounded, containing geodesic elements, that could almost fit in some traditional neighborhoods, and this style may be more appropriate and acceptable for some people, to start. As the streamlined housing look becomes more popular, houses will probably become more increasingly rounded, until dome like structures predominate. It's a rather slow way of breaking people into space age housing. > Their first impression shouldn't be that of a "white trash" "trailer > park." Funny, but that is the impression people get of dwelling machines, and they adamantly refuse to let go of the idea, no matter how you describe them. It's manufactured! Airstream trailers have their diehard adherents, though. I've found that people will comment approvingly of the appearance of industrial domes, but disapprovingly of dome homes. And I share the same sentiments. Industrial domes are more closely related in design to the dwelling machine industry than are conventional wood and shingle domes, which, in my opinion, is like building the space shuttle out of 2x4s and roofing shingles. With a lot of effort, you might get it to fly, but it won't live up to its potential. There's a builder in Houston building town houses out of corrugated steel, the same material used to build barns and industrial buildings. He got the idea after he saw an artist loft in Santa Fe built out of the material. He said he can't build them fast enough. He's started projects in Dallas and Austin now. Young people and seniors are all buying them, nonetheless, the shape is typical rectangular. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 03:26:17 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree here. Build it and they will come! Illogical perceptions and emotional resistance will quickly fade away. Dick Fischbeck wrote: > > I think design science > people may be > too logical to > understand the illogical nature of > human nature > that is a > roadblock to change for the better. Humans > are not > logical, > they are emotional. Hold on a minute. Like Bucky pointed out, > Universe is technology. Comprehensive anticapatory design > science does not depend on illogical people, political people > or any other catagory of people you can think up in order to > change the environment. Again, change the environment and you > change behavior, illogical or not. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 04:34:55 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities Comments: To: synergeo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This little note was found on this very odd little page. In Search of: Computational Cosmography: http://www.mrc.uidaho.edu/mrc/people/nystrom/ccp_rick/footnode.html ...tension Note that electromagnetic activity could be recorded into these tensegrity channels also. This means the use of the word tension implies more than just a mechanical essence. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:15:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > It's also an unfamiliar style of house, which means that it won't > > be immediately welcomed into traditional neighborhoods. We > > need to figure out how to make attractive neighborhoods with > > these things, so that they don't represent a "blight" on the > > landscape, to our potential customers. > > I don't think you can fit a dwelling machine into a traditional > urban neighborhood. But I can assure you that the day will come Never say never. If one thing has been proven over the years, it's that marketing people can make anything appealing to the masses. Remember the "Pet Rock?" People will buy anything! Domes and dwelling machines will make a heckuva lot more sense than pet rocks -- should make our job that much easier. > when dwelling machines will be required by the city code, just > like trailer houses are often prohibited. I've seen some > illustrations of dwellings that were slightly rounded, containing > geodesic elements, that could almost fit in some traditional > neighborhoods, and this style may be more appropriate and Or, perhaps, geodesic "additions" to existing homes. I saw a site online, which detailed octahedral dome segments as add-ons that fit into and around corners of existing houses. As a greenhouse this would be acceptable right now -- as a sunroom, next, and then "enclosed" space could come after that. > acceptable for some people, to start. As the streamlined housing > look becomes more popular, houses will probably become more > increasingly rounded, until dome like structures predominate. > It's a rather slow way of breaking people into space age housing. Maybe we could use the media -- This Old House does segments, showing the latest in housing technologies, periodically. There are lots of these shows, but that's the best known show of its type. Locally, there's "Michael Holligan's New House" which deals specifically with the latest things. (Yes, I know about HGTV, and their poorly produced segment about the weird dome house) > > Their first impression shouldn't be that of a "white trash" > "trailer > > park." > > Funny, but that is the impression people get of dwelling > machines, and they adamantly refuse to let go of the idea, no Well, a LOT (not all) of the dwelling machine drawings I've seen have that overall appearance. As much sense as they make, when you see them, you "see" a trailer. I'm not sure how to deal with that aspect of their design. Bucky's original hexagonal dymaxion house is my personal favorite -- it's in very good taste, and doesn't "scream" trailer to me. Second, for me, is the Fly's Eye design...it doesn't harken back to any previous design. Stamped in relatively thin aluminum plate, it could be cheaply manufactured, too. (I don't like plastics because of outgassing and environmental concerns) > matter how you describe them. It's manufactured! Airstream > trailers have their diehard adherents, though. I've found that They're also considered to be a design classic. > people will comment approvingly of the appearance of industrial > domes, but disapprovingly of dome homes. And I share the same > sentiments. Industrial domes are more closely related in design As do I. Most industrial domes are built using space age materials which "make sense" to the casual observer. The dome is high tech, and so are the materials. There's a certain appropriateness to it, which works on an almost instinctual level. -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:21:40 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The problem, as I see it, with geodesics is that they are so uniform. All of our senses rely on change. Stare at anything, for even a short time, and it will disappear until you move your eyes. So far I've not seen the range in dome home styles that we have with traditional box homes. We like to see interesting angles and lines. The ridgid requirements to achieve a dome structure move in the wrong direction ascetically. A housing addition with all domes is going to look like a sheet of bubble wrap packing material. A dome home will never replace a victorian home as a work of art. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have the same complaint about most modern housing additions. There are several in my area where the color is all the same, tope, with green shutters. The roof lines are all very similar. I don't under why someone would plop down 150 to 500 thousand dollars for a house that looks just like their neighbors. I'll take the character of an established neighborhood any day. Perhaps that sums it up, domes tend to have limited character. Someone here just a short time ago was looking for information on parabolic structures. This could help the situation some. A parabola can be "stretched". I think the solution is to build large domes over other areas, malls, schools, universities, farms. I envision a shallow depression in the earth covered by a dome. The center could be a pond with earth berm type structures around. In the case of a school the center would be the atheletic field and track. A dome 5280 feet (1 mile) across at the base would cover about 500 acres. That would make a nice farm. I think the growing season would be extended also. No hail or wind damage. Better insect control. I'd live there. Standard dome homes offer little to entice a home buyer. Steve O ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:43:08 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: DOMED CITIES MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For designs for dome-enclosed cities see: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Domes-C.htm http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Gl-Gram.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:53:42 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Steve, I think you are right. Domes have, basically the same geometry. You would have to offer the public some other enticements in order to have them give up the traditional wooden craft-built home. I envision a dome housing industry along the same lines as the auto industry with the same level of mass production/machine technology. You could order your geodesic dome house (with your choice of size, colors, patterns, and textures) with the floor plan and amenities you want (i.e. built-in sound system, solar electric, etc.). All the wiring, lighting, windows and interior finishes would be built into the prefab panels which are transported to the site of your choice and erected by a professional team, the day you order. Your new dome home would have a full 15 year warranty and it would have it paid off in 4 to 5 years or you might trade-in on a new model at a later date. -Tony. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy [SMTP:sosha@TRIPLECROWNSVC.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:22 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! The problem, as I see it, with geodesics is that they are so uniform. All of our senses rely on change. Stare at anything, for even a short time, and it will disappear until you move your eyes. So far I've not seen the range in dome home styles that we have with traditional box homes. We like to see interesting angles and lines. The ridgid requirements to achieve a dome structure move in the wrong direction ascetically. A housing addition with all domes is going to look like a sheet of bubble wrap packing material. A dome home will never replace a victorian home as a work of art. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have the same complaint about most modern housing additions. There are several in my area where the color is all the same, tope, with green shutters. The roof lines are all very similar. I don't under why someone would plop down 150 to 500 thousand dollars for a house that looks just like their neighbors. I'll take the character of an established neighborhood any day. Perhaps that sums it up, domes tend to have limited character. Someone here just a short time ago was looking for information on parabolic structures. This could help the situation some. A parabola can be "stretched". I think the solution is to build large domes over other areas, malls, schools, universities, farms. I envision a shallow depression in the earth covered by a dome. The center could be a pond with earth berm type structures around. In the case of a school the center would be the atheletic field and track. A dome 5280 feet (1 mile) across at the base would cover about 500 acres. That would make a nice farm. I think the growing season would be extended also. No hail or wind damage. Better insect control. I'd live there. Standard dome homes offer little to entice a home buyer. Steve O ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 09:52:03 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SS, Mr Nystrom is one of only two people I know of who is working on implementing Bucky's design for the Ultra-Micro Computer (UMC). His paper is at http://www.mrc.uidaho.edu/mrc/people/nystrom/ccp_rick/. What you found was his footnote page. Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 9:34 PM Subject: Re: Question about electromagnetics and tensegrities > This little note was found on this very odd little page. > > In Search of: Computational Cosmography: > http://www.mrc.uidaho.edu/mrc/people/nystrom/ccp_rick/footnode.html > > ...tension > Note that electromagnetic activity could be recorded into > these tensegrity channels also. This means the use of the word > tension implies more than just a mechanical essence. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:12:50 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! In-Reply-To: <39AB2C6B.9C2E496D@mail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Airstream trailers are beautiful! They are the only mobile homes true to their nature--high tech stainless steel and aluminum dwelling machines. I would love to see a community of scenic wooded lots dotted with these silver orbs of (intellectual) light and (civilized) life. The traditional sticks and stones dwellings (all gingered up with ornate Greek columns meant to show that the owners have class) are as repulsive to me as the poverty shacks in third world countries. Perhaps even more so since the wealthy scum who build them are more putrid than the rotting bodies of starved babies and AIDS victims. The one is the moral-spiritual cause the other merely the effect. Dexter > -----Original Message----- > From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of > SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 20:22 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > > > Charles J Knight wrote: > > > > It's also an unfamiliar style of house, which means that it won't > > be immediately welcomed into traditional neighborhoods. We > > need to figure out how to make attractive neighborhoods with > > these things, so that they don't represent a "blight" on the > > landscape, to our potential customers. > > I don't think you can fit a dwelling machine into a traditional > urban neighborhood. But I can assure you that the day will come > when dwelling machines will be required by the city code, just > like trailer houses are often prohibited. I've seen some > illustrations of dwellings that were slightly rounded, containing > geodesic elements, that could almost fit in some traditional > neighborhoods, and this style may be more appropriate and > acceptable for some people, to start. As the streamlined housing > look becomes more popular, houses will probably become more > increasingly rounded, until dome like structures predominate. > It's a rather slow way of breaking people into space age housing. > > > Their first impression shouldn't be that of a "white trash" "trailer > > park." > > Funny, but that is the impression people get of dwelling > machines, and they adamantly refuse to let go of the idea, no > matter how you describe them. It's manufactured! Airstream > trailers have their diehard adherents, though. I've found that > people will comment approvingly of the appearance of industrial > domes, but disapprovingly of dome homes. And I share the same > sentiments. Industrial domes are more closely related in design > to the dwelling machine industry than are conventional wood and > shingle domes, which, in my opinion, is like building the space > shuttle out of 2x4s and roofing shingles. With a lot of effort, > you might get it to > fly, but it won't live up to its potential. There's a builder in > Houston building town houses out of corrugated steel, the same > material used to build barns and industrial buildings. He got the > idea after he saw an artist loft in Santa Fe built out of the > material. He said he can't build them fast enough. He's started > projects in Dallas and Austin now. Young people and seniors are > all buying them, nonetheless, the shape is typical rectangular. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:33:08 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yes, I think that mass production the corner stone of Fuller's thinking on this issue. And look how excited the public is with the VW beetle and the new Chrysler PT Cruiser. They are different! Along the lines of your comments, I've wondered how well a company would do that manufactured commercial bathrooms. A builder of, say McDonalds resturants, leaves a space of say 15 by 25 feet and a prefab bathroom is "plugged in". The paper products are in removeable holders and once or twice a day an employee pressure washes and disinfects the entire thing, floor to ceiling. Steve O -----Original Message----- From: Tony Kalenak [mailto:tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:54 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! Steve, I think you are right. Domes have, basically the same geometry. You would have to offer the public some other enticements in order to have them give up the traditional wooden craft-built home. I envision a dome housing industry along the same lines as the auto industry with the same level of mass production/machine technology. You could order your geodesic dome house (with your choice of size, colors, patterns, and textures) with the floor plan and amenities you want (i.e. built-in sound system, solar electric, etc.). All the wiring, lighting, windows and interior finishes would be built into the prefab panels which are transported to the site of your choice and erected by a professional team, the day you order. Your new dome home would have a full 15 year warranty and it would have it paid off in 4 to 5 years or you might trade-in on a new model at a later date. -Tony. -----Original Message----- From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy [SMTP:sosha@TRIPLECROWNSVC.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:22 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! The problem, as I see it, with geodesics is that they are so uniform. All of our senses rely on change. Stare at anything, for even a short time, and it will disappear until you move your eyes. So far I've not seen the range in dome home styles that we have with traditional box homes. We like to see interesting angles and lines. The ridgid requirements to achieve a dome structure move in the wrong direction ascetically. A housing addition with all domes is going to look like a sheet of bubble wrap packing material. A dome home will never replace a victorian home as a work of art. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have the same complaint about most modern housing additions. There are several in my area where the color is all the same, tope, with green shutters. The roof lines are all very similar. I don't under why someone would plop down 150 to 500 thousand dollars for a house that looks just like their neighbors. I'll take the character of an established neighborhood any day. Perhaps that sums it up, domes tend to have limited character. Someone here just a short time ago was looking for information on parabolic structures. This could help the situation some. A parabola can be "stretched". I think the solution is to build large domes over other areas, malls, schools, universities, farms. I envision a shallow depression in the earth covered by a dome. The center could be a pond with earth berm type structures around. In the case of a school the center would be the atheletic field and track. A dome 5280 feet (1 mile) across at the base would cover about 500 acres. That would make a nice farm. I think the growing season would be extended also. No hail or wind damage. Better insect control. I'd live there. Standard dome homes offer little to entice a home buyer. Steve O ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 11:18:42 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dexter Graphic Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth--Crash? In-Reply-To: <313B94EDA224D11194680001FA7EC2A809BDD423@nts1.triplecrownsvc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen O'Shaughnessy wrote: > I agree. Technology is constantly changing and the rate > of change is exponential. We've done more in the last 50 > years than all of time before that. Technology is critical but not sufficient for world-around success for all of humanity. The limiting factor is will: A moral-spiritual attitude that believes every human being on this planet is worthy of existence; of living, learning, and loving even as we ourselves are. Once people acknowledge each other's humanity as supremely valuable they will take the necessary measures to provide for everyone's welfare. Dick Fischbeck wrote: > The standard of living in the states has a lot more to do > with the metaphysical or weightless resources employed > than anything else. I for one do not expect anything to > crash. I think we are getting closer to being past the > threat of nuclear war, the biggest crash of them all. > People reform when the environment is redesigned. More > with less eternally. Machines will continue to do more > and more drudge work. Recycling resources and converting > to a solar energy supply takes care of physical part of > wealth. The threat I see comes from within, it's people's attitudes. In all the various areas of human endeavor where I have worked in my life, the predominant theme is "get yours and screw the other guy." This is the American way--if not the world's way. In software, telecommunications, transportation, housing, government, law, medicine, marriage, religion, you name it, the dominant players work to suppress open standards and genuine human progress. If you can't put a meter on it and collect revenues then destroy the project or technology. A big one these days is America's push to force intellectual property right laws down every other nations throat. Artistic copyright, technological patents, and proprietary software is effectively locking-up our entire intellectual domain. We will crash because our vital information flow has been cut off. Creative minds needs access to the latest scientific discoveries, the most innovative technological secrets, the dynamically relevant artistic reflections of our current evolutionary state and the beautiful expressions of highest concepts of intellectual-cultural attainment. When it all bogs down to lawyers, money, and power, (personal proprietary control based on selfishness and fear) we're dead. Dexter Some links: The Right to Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html THE FUTURE OF PUBLISHING http://promo.net/pg/kushal.html Why Software Should Not Have Owners http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html The Rich Get Richer and The Poor Get Poorer http://promo.net/pg/annual98.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:03:48 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth--Crash? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I couldn't agree more. Steve O -----Original Message----- From: Dexter Graphic [mailto:dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 1:19 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Spaceship Earth--Crash? Stephen O'Shaughnessy wrote: > I agree. Technology is constantly changing and the rate > of change is exponential. We've done more in the last 50 > years than all of time before that. Technology is critical but not sufficient for world-around success for all of humanity. The limiting factor is will: A moral-spiritual attitude that believes every human being on this planet is worthy of existence; of living, learning, and loving even as we ourselves are. Once people acknowledge each other's humanity as supremely valuable they will take the necessary measures to provide for everyone's welfare. Dick Fischbeck wrote: > The standard of living in the states has a lot more to do > with the metaphysical or weightless resources employed > than anything else. I for one do not expect anything to > crash. I think we are getting closer to being past the > threat of nuclear war, the biggest crash of them all. > People reform when the environment is redesigned. More > with less eternally. Machines will continue to do more > and more drudge work. Recycling resources and converting > to a solar energy supply takes care of physical part of > wealth. The threat I see comes from within, it's people's attitudes. In all the various areas of human endeavor where I have worked in my life, the predominant theme is "get yours and screw the other guy." This is the American way--if not the world's way. In software, telecommunications, transportation, housing, government, law, medicine, marriage, religion, you name it, the dominant players work to suppress open standards and genuine human progress. If you can't put a meter on it and collect revenues then destroy the project or technology. A big one these days is America's push to force intellectual property right laws down every other nations throat. Artistic copyright, technological patents, and proprietary software is effectively locking-up our entire intellectual domain. We will crash because our vital information flow has been cut off. Creative minds needs access to the latest scientific discoveries, the most innovative technological secrets, the dynamically relevant artistic reflections of our current evolutionary state and the beautiful expressions of highest concepts of intellectual-cultural attainment. When it all bogs down to lawyers, money, and power, (personal proprietary control based on selfishness and fear) we're dead. Dexter Some links: The Right to Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html THE FUTURE OF PUBLISHING http://promo.net/pg/kushal.html Why Software Should Not Have Owners http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html The Rich Get Richer and The Poor Get Poorer http://promo.net/pg/annual98.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:51:06 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Tony Kalenak wrote: > Steve, > I think you are right. > Domes have, basically the same geometry. > > > The problem, as I see it, with geodesics is > that they are so > uniform. Geodesic construction will be as diverse in form as a lobster claw is from a .... horses skull. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:00:46 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think you are right. > Domes have, basically the same geometry. Why? The bubble shape (not necessarily spherical) is the only constant. That's like saying that because all traditional houses are rectangular, that they all look alike. Possible variations, other than the obvious size and truncation, include 1 big dome vs a cluster of smaller domes, interconnected bubbles, non spherical geometry, prolate vs oblate ellipsoids, hyperboloid riser walls, etc. Exterior finishes can also be varied -- everything from a tensile membrane skin supported by an exoskeleton, to a fly's eye dome, to stainless steel skin panels, and even hand troweled stucco should be possible using the same basic mass produced units for the underlying framework. There's nothing that says a "dome" has to look like every other "dome." No more than a rectangular building has to look like every other rectangular building. There's also nothing saying that the homeowner can't embellish their home (different colors, additions, etc) themselves. > I envision a dome housing industry along the same lines as the auto > industry > with the same level of mass production/machine technology. You Assuming mass production techniques, all of these (and more) would be easy to produce. Not a big problem -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:19:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Subject: Re: Head count MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Nuess wrote: > Dick Fischbeck wrote: > > > I know there are around two hundred subscribers to > > geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we > > are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. > > Dick ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:09:00 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Linda Boothe Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! In-Reply-To: <313B94EDA224D11194680001FA7EC2A809BDD426@nts1.triplecrowns vc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good idea, already available in Japan, unibath cleaned as you describe. At 12:33 PM 8/29/00 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, I think that mass production the corner stone of Fuller's thinking on >this issue. > >And look how excited the public is with the VW beetle and the new Chrysler >PT Cruiser. They are different! > >Along the lines of your comments, I've wondered how well a company would do >that manufactured commercial bathrooms. A builder of, say McDonalds >resturants, leaves a space of say 15 by 25 feet and a prefab bathroom is >"plugged in". The paper products are in removeable holders and once or >twice a day an employee pressure washes and disinfects the entire thing, >floor to ceiling. > >Steve O > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony Kalenak [mailto:tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:54 AM >To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > > >Steve, >I think you are right. >Domes have, basically the same geometry. >You would have to offer the public some other enticements in order to have >them give up the traditional wooden craft-built home. > >I envision a dome housing industry along the same lines as the auto industry >with the same level of mass production/machine technology. You could order >your geodesic dome house (with your choice of size, colors, patterns, and >textures) with the floor plan and amenities you want (i.e. built-in sound >system, solar electric, etc.). All the wiring, lighting, windows and >interior finishes would be built into the prefab panels which are >transported to the site of your choice and erected by a professional team, >the day you order. Your new dome home would have a full 15 year warranty >and it would have it paid off in 4 to 5 years or you might trade-in on a new >model at a later date. > >-Tony. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy [SMTP:sosha@TRIPLECROWNSVC.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:22 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > > The problem, as I see it, with geodesics is that they are so >uniform. All > of our senses rely on change. Stare at anything, for even a short >time, and > it will disappear until you move your eyes. > > So far I've not seen the range in dome home styles that we have with > traditional box homes. We like to see interesting angles and lines. >The > ridgid requirements to achieve a dome structure move in the wrong >direction > ascetically. A housing addition with all domes is going to look >like a > sheet of bubble wrap packing material. A dome home will never >replace a > victorian home as a work of art. But beauty is in the eye of the >beholder. > I have the same complaint about most modern housing additions. >There are > several in my area where the color is all the same, tope, with green > shutters. The roof lines are all very similar. I don't under why >someone > would plop down 150 to 500 thousand dollars for a house that looks >just > like their neighbors. I'll take the character of an established > neighborhood any day. Perhaps that sums it up, domes tend to have >limited > character. > > Someone here just a short time ago was looking for information on >parabolic > structures. This could help the situation some. A parabola can be > "stretched". > > I think the solution is to build large domes over other areas, >malls, > schools, universities, farms. > I envision a shallow depression in the earth covered by a dome. The >center > could be a pond with earth berm type structures around. In the case >of a > school the center would be the atheletic field and track. > > A dome 5280 feet (1 mile) across at the base would cover about 500 >acres. > That would make a nice farm. I think the growing season would be >extended > also. No hail or wind damage. Better insect control. I'd live >there. > > Standard dome homes offer little to entice a home buyer. > > Steve O > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 23:55:56 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DL XX Subject: Re: Head count Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------Original Message------ From: Tony Kalenak To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: August 28, 2000 1:48:11 PM GMT Subject: Re: Head count -----Original Message----- From: Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM] Sent: Saturday, August 26, 2000 12:49 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Head count I know there are around two hundred subscribers to geodesic but I am curious about how many readers we are. Hit reply to this and we can see. Thanks. Dick ............................................................. voted #1 search engine! http://www.iwon.com why wouldn't you? ............................................................. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 00:59:19 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I don't think you can fit a dwelling machine into a traditional > > urban neighborhood. But I can assure you that the day will come I meant style wise. > Or, perhaps, geodesic "additions" to existing homes. I saw a > site online, which detailed octahedral dome segments as add-ons > that fit into and around corners of existing houses. As a greenhouse > this would be acceptable right now -- as a sunroom, next, and then > "enclosed" space could come after that. All right! Geodesic facades and add-ons to make people's primitive hovels fit into the modern age, like those pathetic translucent neon colored panels sold to make your square old computer resemble an iMac. There's a market for anything. Those people that invest in a conventional home in their final days will regret it for the rest of their lives. > > acceptable for some people, to start. As the streamlined housing > > look becomes more popular, houses will probably become more > > increasingly rounded, until dome like structures predominate. > > It's a rather slow way of breaking people into space age housing. > > Maybe we could use the media -- This Old House does segments, > showing the latest in housing technologies, periodically. There are > lots of these shows, but that's the best known show of its type. All of the media focus on the "home of the future" concerns electronic gadgets and such, some improvements in energy efficiency, some solar and fuel-cell energy, but little advance in the structural design. Take a look at the article in Sept. issue of Popular Science. I was too uninspired to spend much time reading it. I got this quote out of it, and that's about it. 'While technological revolution has hit nearly every aspect of life over the past century, out homes - where we spend most of our time - have strangely been left behind.' - William G. Phillips, Popular Science, Sept. 2000 Balloon framing (perhaps someone can tell me how it derives that name) is considered one of the most advanced improvements in housing construction in the last 100 years. Whoopee! Time marches still. All of the new home designs, home of the future, green home, envirohome or whatever are trying to retrofit new components into a 5,000 year old structural design. This doesn't make any sense. It's almost like trying to build a spaceship by fitting the latest life-support systems onto a chariot. We need to start from the ground up with a new design based on the most advanced structural principles and design the latest energy, communications, life-support and environmental controls into that. In Popular Science, looking at the photo of the Third Millennium design competition home, in spite of it's advances, and apparent structural soundness, I can't help but get the impression that it's sitting there waiting for the first stiff wind to come along and blow it over like a house of cards. Of course I have a more "awakened" sense of what modern housing should look like. The objective is to instill this awakened view of architecture into the general public until they come to view conventional housing as primitive stone age hovels. We need a new version of the Three Little Pigs (or the wise man built his house upon a rock) to promote dwelling machines, and show the folly of modern housing, something similar to Buckminster Fuller's Tetrascroll: Goldilocks and the Three Bears. > Second, for me, is the Fly's Eye design...it doesn't > harken back to any previous design. I think the fly's eye is a winner. I think it would be functional and has a winning appeal that would be attractive to young people ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 01:29:04 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stephen O'Shaughnessy wrote: > > The problem, as I see it, with geodesics is that they are so uniform. All > of our senses rely on change. 'In the great civilizations, a higher and higher standard of living requires more and more standardization, which produces both brilliant and beautiful improvements -- which we can all later take for granted, of course!' -- Marilyn vos Savant > So far I've not seen the range in dome home styles that we have with > traditional box homes. We like to see interesting angles and lines. The > ridgid requirements to achieve a dome structure move in the wrong direction > ascetically. A housing addition with all domes is going to look like a > sheet of bubble wrap packing material. There are housing developments all over the country with almost identical houses lined up for miles around. People do things pretty uniformly. They serve the same meals at restaurants, people wear the same style clothes, drive similar style cars. Style is just a facade, and even differences in style are a facade, offering little difference at all. The article in the Sept. Popular Science said that the house of the future will look just like houses of the past, designed with your choice of facades. That is not the future of housing! Houses of the future will look more like something out of a science-fiction movie, and a variety of styles will probably emerge. > A dome home will never replace a > victorian home as a work of art. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. > I have the same complaint about most modern housing additions. There are > several in my area where the color is all the same, tope, with green > shutters. The roof lines are all very similar. I don't under why someone > would plop down 150 to 500 thousand dollars for a house that looks just > like their neighbors. I'll take the character of an established > neighborhood any day. Perhaps that sums it up, domes tend to have limited > character. The first generation geodesic dome homes that we've become accustomed to seeing were built using conventional construction practices and building materials. It's a though a spaceship landed in the midst of a primitive tribe and they copied its design using reeds and grass. They have no relationship to the domes of the future. > Someone here just a short time ago was looking for information on parabolic > structures. This could help the situation some. A parabola can be > "stretched". > > I think the solution is to build large domes over other areas, malls, > schools, universities, farms. > I envision a shallow depression in the earth covered by a dome. The center > could be a pond with earth berm type structures around. In the case of a > school the center would be the atheletic field and track. Much like Buckminster Fuller's Old Man River City, described in Critical Path. > A dome 5280 feet (1 mile) across at the base would cover about 500 acres. > That would make a nice farm. I think the growing season would be extended > also. No hail or wind damage. Better insect control. I'd live there. > > Standard dome homes offer little to entice a home buyer. > > Steve O ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 02:04:55 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony Kalenak wrote: > > Steve, > I think you are right. > Domes have, basically the same geometry. > You would have to offer the public some other enticements in order to have > them give up the traditional wooden craft-built home. Like low production cost, low energy cost, low maintenance, fire resistance, storm resistance, water damage resistance, termite proof, vandal resistance, and low insurance cost. And what else? Volkswagen Beetles all had the same geometry. People said they wouldn't sell in America. They're a classic. Ultimately, in spite of their drawbacks, it was their economy, not their style that made them a classic. People gravitate to the same styles. Everybody knows that! Once dwelling machine production gets rolling, it's going to be the easiest sell in the history of the world, and those that bought into a conventional home at the end of their era (error) are going to be some sore losers. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 07:04:38 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Cool, I love it when I have an idea that someone else is already successful at. It means that I'm at least thinking along the right lines. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Linda Boothe [mailto:linda@DOMES.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 8:09 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! Good idea, already available in Japan, unibath cleaned as you describe. At 12:33 PM 8/29/00 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, I think that mass production the corner stone of Fuller's thinking on >this issue. > >And look how excited the public is with the VW beetle and the new Chrysler >PT Cruiser. They are different! > >Along the lines of your comments, I've wondered how well a company would do >that manufactured commercial bathrooms. A builder of, say McDonalds >resturants, leaves a space of say 15 by 25 feet and a prefab bathroom is >"plugged in". The paper products are in removeable holders and once or >twice a day an employee pressure washes and disinfects the entire thing, >floor to ceiling. > >Steve O > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony Kalenak [mailto:tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM] >Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:54 AM >To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > > >Steve, >I think you are right. >Domes have, basically the same geometry. >You would have to offer the public some other enticements in order to have >them give up the traditional wooden craft-built home. > >I envision a dome housing industry along the same lines as the auto industry >with the same level of mass production/machine technology. You could order >your geodesic dome house (with your choice of size, colors, patterns, and >textures) with the floor plan and amenities you want (i.e. built-in sound >system, solar electric, etc.). All the wiring, lighting, windows and >interior finishes would be built into the prefab panels which are >transported to the site of your choice and erected by a professional team, >the day you order. Your new dome home would have a full 15 year warranty >and it would have it paid off in 4 to 5 years or you might trade-in on a new >model at a later date. > >-Tony. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy [SMTP:sosha@TRIPLECROWNSVC.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2000 11:22 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > > The problem, as I see it, with geodesics is that they are so >uniform. All > of our senses rely on change. Stare at anything, for even a short >time, and > it will disappear until you move your eyes. > > So far I've not seen the range in dome home styles that we have with > traditional box homes. We like to see interesting angles and lines. >The > ridgid requirements to achieve a dome structure move in the wrong >direction > ascetically. A housing addition with all domes is going to look >like a > sheet of bubble wrap packing material. A dome home will never >replace a > victorian home as a work of art. But beauty is in the eye of the >beholder. > I have the same complaint about most modern housing additions. >There are > several in my area where the color is all the same, tope, with green > shutters. The roof lines are all very similar. I don't under why >someone > would plop down 150 to 500 thousand dollars for a house that looks >just > like their neighbors. I'll take the character of an established > neighborhood any day. Perhaps that sums it up, domes tend to have >limited > character. > > Someone here just a short time ago was looking for information on >parabolic > structures. This could help the situation some. A parabola can be > "stretched". > > I think the solution is to build large domes over other areas, >malls, > schools, universities, farms. > I envision a shallow depression in the earth covered by a dome. The >center > could be a pond with earth berm type structures around. In the case >of a > school the center would be the atheletic field and track. > > A dome 5280 feet (1 mile) across at the base would cover about 500 >acres. > That would make a nice farm. I think the growing season would be >extended > also. No hail or wind damage. Better insect control. I'd live >there. > > Standard dome homes offer little to entice a home buyer. > > Steve O > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:56:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There are housing developments all over the country with almost > identical houses lined up for miles around. People do things I know. The one around here is called Plano. As in Plain and Old fashioned. (It's a modern community, with nearly identical rectilinear housing, built as cheaply as possible, and sold for nearly $1/2 million on average.) Give me an established, older custom built neighborhood, any day. I hate that level of uniformity. > > A dome home will never replace a > > victorian home as a work of art. But beauty is in the eye of the > > The first generation geodesic dome homes that we've become > accustomed to seeing were built using conventional construction > practices and building materials. It's a though a spaceship > landed in the midst of a primitive tribe and they copied its > design using reeds and grass. They have no relationship to the > domes of the future. Precisely. But, people will want some level of art. That's why there are so many different shapes and colors of toasters, etc. Houses will be the same way. > > Someone here just a short time ago was looking for information on > parabolic > > structures. This could help the situation some. A parabola can > be > > "stretched". That would be me, though it wasn't specifically about parabolas. I was just questioning whether a spherical shape was the best way to resist the force of gravity, a VERY unidirectional force. > > Standard dome homes offer little to entice a home buyer. It depends on the way they're marketed, too. 1) Live in a funny looking wooden igloo, that won't fit in with the other homes in your neighborhood. A dome that is known for leaking, and upsetting your neighbors. 2) Live in the home of the future. Thanks to modern manufacturing techniques, it has a level of fit and finish comparable to that on a Lexus car. Get more space for your money, and cathedral ceilings to boot! It'll cost less the heat and cool, and is nearly maintenance free. Live the easy life. Come home to a dome. Which one sounds more appealing? -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 10:47:02 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Or, perhaps, geodesic "additions" to existing homes. I saw a > > site online, which detailed octahedral dome segments as add-ons > > All right! Geodesic facades and add-ons to make people's > primitive hovels fit into the modern age, like those pathetic > translucent neon colored panels sold to make your square old > computer resemble an iMac. There's a market for anything. Those Well, not facades. These are actually functional rooms, be they greenhouses or rumpus rooms. Those iMac panels are strictly for looks...different animal altogether. > > > As the streamlined housing > > > look becomes more popular, houses will probably become more > > > increasingly rounded, until dome like structures predominate. > > > > Maybe we could use the media -- This Old House does segments, > > showing the latest in housing technologies, periodically. There > > All of the media focus on the "home of the future" concerns > electronic gadgets and such, some improvements in energy > efficiency, some solar and fuel-cell energy, but little advance > in the structural design. Take a look at the article in Sept. > issue of Popular Science. I was too uninspired to spend much time > reading it. I got this quote out of it, and that's about it. Is that the article with the self cleaning surfaces? Interesting, but hardly implemented well. So, we need to give them something *real* to report. To me, integrating a net appliance into my dishwasher does not say "future," to me. Showing them a house that works better, and costs less to erect, might just be a cover story. > 'While technological revolution has hit nearly every aspect of > life over the past century, out homes - where we spend most of > our time - have strangely been left behind.' - William G. > Phillips, Popular Science, Sept. 2000 Can you say "letter to the editor?" > Balloon framing (perhaps someone can tell me how it derives that > name) is considered one of the most advanced improvements in > housing construction in the last 100 years. Whoopee! Time marches > still. What is balloon framing, anyway? I had less than 10 seconds to read the article -- I missed some of it. > All of the new home designs, home of the future, green home, > envirohome or whatever are trying to retrofit new components into > a 5,000 year old structural design. This doesn't make any sense. We need to make this clear to Popular Science, as well as Architectural Digest and other magazines, TV shows, etc. USE the media to change public perception. > > Second, for me, is the Fly's Eye design...it doesn't > > harken back to any previous design. > > I think the fly's eye is a winner. I think it would be functional > and has a winning appeal that would be attractive to young people I would love to see one stamped in either aluminum or recycled steel. It'd be fireproof, structurally sound, and quite beautiful. Wonder if we could get Alcoa to finance one or two prototypes. Or the steel foundaries. They're both advertising in magazines, about the recyclable nature of their products, showing how many houses can be built from a recycled car, or some such thing. -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:25:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- From: Charles J Knight [mailto:c.knight@JUNO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:56 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! . 2) Live in the home of the future. Thanks to modern manufacturing techniques, it has a level of fit and finish comparable to that on a Lexus car. Get more space for your money, and cathedral ceilings to boot! It'll cost less the heat and cool, and is nearly maintenance free. Live the easy life. Come home to a dome. Which one sounds more appealing? -- Chuck Knight I'm sold, who's building these now? Or more to the point, how is the current modular home/mobile home industry getting around the local building codes and unions that I understand are what is blocking progress in home inovation? Can you put wheels under a home, after it is built, and call it a mobile home? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:43:00 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tony Kalenak Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" INERTIA>>>> In establishing a manufactured dome home industry, I think you will encounter a lot of inertia and will be working against the millions of people who get their lively hood from the Status Quo (e.g. the building trades, the AIA, the money lenders and realtors, the home improvement industry.... just to name a few.) These people are powerful and monied and have the legislated their inertia by way of the building codes. So, it seems to me, that anyone attempting to start a new housing paradigm, will have to align themselves with an equally strong player, (like ....?) or end run most of the opposition, by creating their own subdivisions outside the jurisdiction of the building codes(cities) in rural areas. Subvert the Dominate Paradigm ! -Original Message----- From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy [SMTP:sosha@TRIPLECROWNSVC.COM] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 12:25 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! -----Original Message----- From: Charles J Knight [mailto:c.knight@JUNO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:56 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! . 2) Live in the home of the future. Thanks to modern manufacturing techniques, it has a level of fit and finish comparable to that on a Lexus car. Get more space for your money, and cathedral ceilings to boot! It'll cost less the heat and cool, and is nearly maintenance free. Live the easy life. Come home to a dome. Which one sounds more appealing? -- Chuck Knight I'm sold, who's building these now? Or more to the point, how is the current modular home/mobile home industry getting around the local building codes and unions that I understand are what is blocking progress in home inovation? Can you put wheels under a home, after it is built, and call it a mobile home? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 12:56:00 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I started to send another post, but thought it might be seen as too inflammatory. Now I think it I will say it anyhow. Maybe it's time to look outside of the US. Our Status Quo, to use your characterization, are no longer conducive to innovation. Other countries have a far greater need for housing and far less bureaucracy. Steve O -----Original Message----- From: Tony Kalenak [mailto:tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 12:43 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! INERTIA>>>> In establishing a manufactured dome home industry, I think you will encounter a lot of inertia and will be working against the millions of people who get their lively hood from the Status Quo (e.g. the building trades, the AIA, the money lenders and realtors, the home improvement industry.... just to name a few.) These people are powerful and monied and have the legislated their inertia by way of the building codes. So, it seems to me, that anyone attempting to start a new housing paradigm, will have to align themselves with an equally strong player, (like ....?) or end run most of the opposition, by creating their own subdivisions outside the jurisdiction of the building codes(cities) in rural areas. Subvert the Dominate Paradigm ! -Original Message----- From: Stephen O'Shaughnessy [SMTP:sosha@TRIPLECROWNSVC.COM] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 12:25 PM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! -----Original Message----- From: Charles J Knight [mailto:c.knight@JUNO.COM] Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:56 AM To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! . 2) Live in the home of the future. Thanks to modern manufacturing techniques, it has a level of fit and finish comparable to that on a Lexus car. Get more space for your money, and cathedral ceilings to boot! It'll cost less the heat and cool, and is nearly maintenance free. Live the easy life. Come home to a dome. Which one sounds more appealing? -- Chuck Knight I'm sold, who's building these now? Or more to the point, how is the current modular home/mobile home industry getting around the local building codes and unions that I understand are what is blocking progress in home inovation? Can you put wheels under a home, after it is built, and call it a mobile home? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:33:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Live in the home of the future. Thanks to modern manufacturing > > I'm sold, who's building these now? :-) Noone -- you're getting in on the ground floor! > Or more to the point, how is the current modular home/mobile home > industry > getting around the local building codes and unions that I understand > are > what is blocking progress in home inovation? ARE they getting around the local building codes? The ones around here use 2x6 stud-wall construction, hurricane bracing, etc...just like a normal house. The major difference is that they are built with the cheapest possible finish quality, and that they're easily transportable. Presumably, their foundations meet some minimum requirements too. Though, here in the tornado belt (north Texas), I like the idea of being attached to the ground SECURELY in something inherently tornado resistant. LIKE A DOME! -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 13:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Charles J Knight Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In establishing a manufactured dome home industry, I think you will > encounter a lot of inertia and will be working against the millions > > So, it seems to me, that anyone attempting to start a new housing > paradigm, > will have to align themselves with an equally strong player, (like > ....?) or Let's make an assumption. These domes will be built from metal, either steel or aluminum. I still think a Fly's Eye dome would be easily produced by stamping sheet aluminum or sheet steel into the panel shapes. We could also get the metal corporations on our side -- they're major players. Kaiser and Alcoa are both mega corporations that produce aluminum, and which could easily lobby on the side of the fledgling dome industry. Ditto for the steel industry -- it wouldn't be a problem for them to manipulate (oops, lobby) a few dozen senators and get new codes passed. That is, once structural testing, etc is finished, probably on 1 or 2 prototypes. Rural building codes do exist, but they're usually MUCH more lax than urban ones. I agree that a new development, on the "outskirts of town" would make a lot of sense for a prototype community. After one is built, it can be used as a precedent, for others who want the same type of housing. -- Chuck Knight ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 16:22:06 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Mitchell Subject: Re: Einstein MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit right=1- I think there was only 13 people given permission to write about relativity. One of them was Albert. Dick Fischbeck wrote: > When Bucky wrote Nine Chains, few people(like ten?) > understood Einstein well enough to write on his work, > right? I wonder if there is any parallel today to > Bucky's work. Sometimes I think there are only a > handful of people that feel like I do, which is that > Bucky makes a thousand times more sense than anyone Bucky is easy to understand because he has the truth at hand. The reason the educational system is going to pot and violence is it is not teaching the truth, like bucky. Lies are hard to learn for anyone. over myopic views are hard to remember. This makes the youth very violent. Truth makes them loving. As bucky would say re writing all the books is to much trouble better teach them all these lies than make trouble and embarrass someone. An over view is thought of as not being accountable in education. you must remember the facts of special case lies our the teacher will be fired soon as Bush gets in. Facts are always part of principles that are ignored and thought of as not education today. SO people just shoot you! and think about it latter. The schools are a torture chamber to most kids, and only the rich can make it through with drugs and sex on the side the others drop out and get jobs it they can or sell drugs which is all the public lets them do, so as to pay cops to kill them for not being in school. Jessie Jackson is right about all this, why not give them money before they are forced to be put in prison when you give it to them anyway? else I have read. > > ===== > Dick FischbeckHubdome(copyright2000)/\\////\\\\/////\\\\////\\\\\\\///\\\\\There are no bad kids!!>Do your own thinking. UTOPIA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:02:29 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a color drawing of a Mobile Home Dome see: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/IcosDomeHomeMobile.htm Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen O'Shaughnessy" Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:25 AM Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles J Knight [mailto:c.knight@JUNO.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:56 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > > 2) > Live in the home of the future. Thanks to modern manufacturing > techniques, it has a level of fit and finish comparable to that on > a Lexus car. Get more space for your money, and cathedral > ceilings to boot! It'll cost less the heat and cool, and is nearly > maintenance free. Live the easy life. Come home to a dome. > > Which one sounds more appealing? > > -- Chuck Knight > > I'm sold, who's building these now? > > Or more to the point, how is the current modular home/mobile home industry > getting around the local building codes and unions that I understand are > what is blocking progress in home inovation? > > Can you put wheels under a home, after it is built, and call it a mobile > home? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 11:50:37 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! <> Brian Q. Hutchings 30-AUG-2000 11:50 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us because the wallboard and siding has the integrity of a balloon (without the air to hold it, "up"); you probably thought of that, by now. thus quth: Balloon framing (perhaps someone can tell me how it derives that name) is considered one of the most advanced improvements in >--Undead President! >http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 19:14:13 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Mitchell Subject: Re: geodesic structure MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The truth is not hard to understand for it sits in a chair and does not get tired. All this polygarbage is made of orbitronical systems that are not static as the models that are freeze dried. The area of the orbits is all that changes in all volume packed radii. Of course hutch you know that. There is no such thing as a geodesic structure. Brian Hutchings wrote: > <> Brian Q. Hutchings 22-AUG-2000 7:18 > r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/molecula.htm > didn't work. > anyway, the symmetry of the tetrahedron is contained > in the (octahedron and the) icosahedron in (2) five ways -- > or, rather, it can be ennested around the icosah., > in five ways, making a 5-tet compound, > just as it can be nested *in* to the dodecahedron (icosagon, or > "icosavertexia" in Bucky's "post-humous" usage !-) > whether you want to say that the symmetry > of the tetragon is a subset of that of the dodecagon (icosahedron), > or not, is a question. > > thus quoth: > Both the tetrahedron & octahedron are icosidodecahedron related > geometries. I have drawings showing the geometrical correlation between > the oct & tet with a double icosahedron which is simply a > icosidodecahedron > with additional Golden Mean Elements attached. URL: > > --The Duke of Oil! > http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 22:46:05 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Open Source Development Lab MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now how about a Design Science Open Source Technology Development Lab? http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38505,00.html Computer hardware giants Hewlett-Packard, Intel, IBM, and NEC are joining together to fund an independent, nonprofit laboratory to help speed the development and testing of enterprise-targeted Linux projects. The Open Source Development Lab will offer access to high-powered hardware and a wide range of software to developers of new and existing projects that utilize open-source licenses and conform to the accepted open-source development models. http://www.osdlab.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 01:53:01 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: Mobile Home Dome (was: Re: Cake and eat it too) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The concept looks good, except, it's too wide to carry down the highway. Joe S Moore wrote: > > For a color drawing of a Mobile Home Dome see: > http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/IcosDomeHomeMobile.htm > > Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stephen O'Shaughnessy" > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:25 AM > Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Charles J Knight [mailto:c.knight@JUNO.COM] > > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:56 AM > > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > > > > 2) > > Live in the home of the future. Thanks to modern manufacturing > > techniques, it has a level of fit and finish comparable to that on > > a Lexus car. Get more space for your money, and cathedral > > ceilings to boot! It'll cost less the heat and cool, and is nearly > > maintenance free. Live the easy life. Come home to a dome. > > > > Which one sounds more appealing? > > > > -- Chuck Knight > > > > I'm sold, who's building these now? > > > > Or more to the point, how is the current modular home/mobile home industry > > getting around the local building codes and unions that I understand are > > what is blocking progress in home inovation? > > > > Can you put wheels under a home, after it is built, and call it a mobile > > home? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 02:24:08 +0000 Reply-To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM Subject: biodiversity of food crops Comments: To: Marie , David Mujahed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a nice article on biodiversity of food crops from the head of underutilised food crops for the International Plant Genetic Resources Institute (IPGRI) in Rome. http://www.newscientist.com/nl/0902/padulosi.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 05:56:20 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: marksomers Subject: Re: Open Source development lab MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C01310.2F6C3900" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C01310.2F6C3900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now how about a Design Science Open Source Technology Development Lab? http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38505,00.html Computer hardware giants Hewlett-Packard, Intel, IBM, and NEC are joining together to fund an independent, nonprofit laboratory to help speed the development and testing of enterprise-targeted Linux projects. The Open Source Development Lab will offer access to high-powered hardware and a wide range of software to developers of new and existing projects that utilize open-source licenses and conform to the accepted open-source development models. http://www.osdlab.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------- My sentiments exactly, Spaceship. I forget now who was working on = putting Hugh Kenners book on the web but that information is invaluable = in creating the body of knowledge to generate compound curves. I = sometimes think that people over look the complexity of the math = involved in even the simplist geodesic dome structure ( Bucky pulled off = a tour de force of mental concentration when he generated the first math = models only using a slide ruler) and to expand on such structures = wheather they be larger domes or compound curved structures (for an = aesthetic appeal) is going to be some serious math modeling. And on top = of that of course is the mechanical engineering needed to create a safe = structure from any proposed structure generated. Mark =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C01310.2F6C3900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Now how about a Design Science Open = Source=20 Technology Development Lab?

http://w= ww.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38505,00.html

Computer=20 hardware giants Hewlett-Packard, Intel, IBM, and NEC are
joining = together to=20 fund an independent, nonprofit laboratory to
help speed the = development and=20 testing of enterprise-targeted
Linux projects. The Open Source = Development=20 Lab will offer access
to high-powered hardware and a wide range of = software=20 to
developers of new and existing projects that utilize=20 open-source
licenses and conform to the accepted open-source=20 development
models.

http://www.osdlab.org
 
----------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
 
My sentiments exactly, Spaceship. I = forget now who=20 was working on putting Hugh Kenners book on the web but that information = is=20 invaluable in creating the body of knowledge to generate compound = curves. I=20 sometimes think that people over look the complexity of the math = involved in=20 even the simplist geodesic dome structure ( Bucky pulled off a tour de = force of=20 mental concentration when he generated the first math models only using = a slide=20 ruler)  and to expand on such structures wheather they be larger = domes or=20 compound curved structures (for an aesthetic appeal) is going to be some = serious=20 math modeling. And on top of that of course is the mechanical = engineering needed=20 to create a safe structure from any proposed structure=20 generated.
 
Mark  =
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C01310.2F6C3900-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:14:18 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Brent A. Verrill" Subject: Re: Open Source Development Lab In-Reply-To: <39AD8EA7.50C2909E@mail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Consider the impact on humanity if BFI decided to undertake a similar effort with all of Fuller's works as the open source development tool kit. I suspect that the 20 year life span of patents means that the majority of Bucky's patents have expired and therefore are open source anyway. The internet availability of some of his works, i.e. Synergetics, Operating Manual, Grunch of Giants (?), means that those works are basically public domain. But imagine if BFI operated as a one stop shop for the development of products that make a positive difference in the world. You get the philosophy, research, case studies, and prototypical artifacts all in one place. The recent acquisition of Bucky's Chronofile by a major university (Stanford, I think?) means that it will soon be catalogued and indexed. Yet another extremely powerful tool to the researcher. The Summer 2000 issue of _Whole Earth_ magazine includes a brief article on the entrepreneurial nature of non-profits these days. BFI could transition into such an organization with one project. We all know what a useful conceptual tool the Dymaxion Map is. I recall various proposals on this list for getting news organizations to use it in their broadcasts so that this way of looking at the world as one island could be more readily distributed to the masses. BFI could eliminate a major barrier to its acceptance among broadcast news organizations by pre-packaging the dymaxion map for news vignettes. I believe that most news organizations already buy their structured graphics, like maps, from third party vendors. BFI could become such a vendor. The first step would be to let a couple of news organizations use the package for free, with assistance in development and appropriate credits, for a limited time. After that, BFI could license the package to anyone who wanted it. I suspect that once people see such a cool representation of the world, everyone will want it. Licensing fees could provide the cash cow that BFI would need to actually hire people to develop the organization as a non-profit, open-source product development firm to foster worthy projects into fruition. Idea for Dymaxion Map sequence... Graphic starts as spinning globe. Globe deflates to reveal triangular facets as it spins. Flat triangles start to peel away and unfold into the Dyamaxion Map we all know and love. Image zooms into the triangle of the region of the world where the current news story is taking place. Once the zoom-in gets to the scale of countries, borders pop out from the map. Once the zoom-in gets to the scale of cities, dots pop out from the map, their size relative to their population. Keep in mind that this whole vignette would take place within a 3-4 second time frame, perhaps behind the head of the news-caster. Any comments, suggestions? Brent At 06:46 PM 8/30/00 , you wrote: >Now how about a Design Science Open Source Technology Development Lab? > >http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,38505,00.html > >Computer hardware giants Hewlett-Packard, Intel, IBM, and NEC are >joining together to fund an independent, nonprofit laboratory to >help speed the development and testing of enterprise-targeted >Linux projects. The Open Source Development Lab will offer access >to high-powered hardware and a wide range of software to >developers of new and existing projects that utilize open-source >licenses and conform to the accepted open-source development >models. > >http://www.osdlab.org > Brent A. Verrill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Graduate Research Assistant Institute for Sustainable Technology and Development (ISTD) Georgia Institute of Technology 404-894-7897 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 04:54:03 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: [Q-P] Gore or Nader? <> Brian Q. Hutchings 31-AUG-2000 4:54 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us mister Palmer, let me address your concerns in reverse-order. Lyn has answered many of the VoteSmart questions, although I don't think that they've been changed, since the last cycle. the worry about Bush being a dysaster *with* a Republican Congress, hits the thumb, squarely, leaving the forehead to fret over it. as much as Gore tries to evoke FDR and Kennedy, he is not the sort of candidate with the bona-fides to rally the "80%, the forgotten man & woman" for such gains in both houses; indeed, the stalinist tactics used on the "d" side have already trashed the Primary half of the gettin'out-the-vote process, with no hope in sight from the Gore thugs. (please recall, polls speak only to relative interests, not the level of turn-out, which has been magnificently crushed with the media-hype about the total irrelevance of the Conventions, and the co-operation of both NCs in making them thus, with no platform-hearings and so on.) and, I have experienced these tactics, locally, in the SM Dem Club, when they pretended not to know, where the candidate-interviews were taking place! in order to grok the sadness of LBJ's trial to continue JFK's legacy, please, get the book by Gibson, _Battling Wall Street_ or, even better, his recent sequel. it seems unusual, with the rather restrained attendance of both the Conventions, that there was no applause for Gore's assertions about "global" warming, because he is certainly going to be in the lead on the Kyoto Protocols -- and so would Bush, as befits both of their 2-generation pedigree of support by that cartel!>of support by that cartel! I hadn't heard about the victim's rights plank, but it is totally of a piece with the 3 terms of Bush's massive influence on the DoJ bureaucracy, which we have referred-to as his administrative Leviathan, achieved largely through massive funding of extra-judicial and judicial (and anticonstitutional) victim's rights agendae (as well as through such effluvia as DARE -- "Just say, No, thank you, to drugs" !-) as with thte Diocletian edicts on "fossilized" fuels, sans any promotion of nuclear electricity, the idea that Son George, the Texas elctric-chair Killer, is against family-planning, any more than Sir "Rubbers" George was, at the UN, is an interesting hypothetical, but what is it based upon? finally, if ever you want to virtually behead a deadhead marksist, just ask him what the literal definitions of "capitalism" and "laissez-faire" are, with their historical precedents; then, you can agree with him, that "free" trade is merely an empirical nonsequiter, and that fair trade was fought-for, against that, for the founding of this republic (a-hem !-) --The Duke of Oil! http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 05:22:54 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Open Source Development Lab <> Brian Q. Hutchings 31-AUG-2000 5:22 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us abolish the Quadrangle, which will be obsoleted by the Trigonal Gridding of the Dymaxion (tm) Map. Hell, abolish the USGS, and replace it with the Global Open Source Satellite Hapedonapterae (GOSSH, ne, The Royal Society), and we can have those icosahedra dancing all over Ralph Bunche Hall (that's where Geography is housed at UCLA, along with the archival maps !-) --Undead President! http://www.tarpley.net/bush7.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 11:36:14 -0700 Reply-To: bward@metro.net Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bruce M Ward Organization: Polymath Productions Subject: Re: Open Source Development Lab MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent A. Verrill wrote: > Idea for Dymaxion Map sequence... > Graphic starts as spinning globe. > Globe deflates to reveal triangular facets as it spins. > Flat triangles start to peel away and unfold into the Dyamaxion Map we all > know > and love. > Image zooms into the triangle of the region of the world where the current > news > story is taking place. > Once the zoom-in gets to the scale of countries, borders pop out from the > map. > > Once the zoom-in gets to the scale of cities, dots pop out from the map, their > size relative to their population. > > Keep in mind that this whole vignette would take place within a 3-4 second > time > frame, perhaps behind the head of the news-caster. > > Any comments, suggestions? YES! I've pictured exactly this kind of sequence myself. Thank you for such a nicely done description. Do it in two seconds. Spinning globe begins peeling/flattening within, say, the first quarter turn. Borders/cities zoom-in continues to aerial photo of scene/area and in to on-scene reporter. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:07:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Stephen O'Shaughnessy wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles J Knight [mailto:c.knight@JUNO.COM] > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:56 AM > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Cake and eat it too! > snip > Can you put wheels under a home, after it is built, > and call it a mobile > home? cut Or fly it home! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 19:26:03 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: SIEDEN'S "NEW" BOOK Comments: To: _DomeHomeList MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A word to the wise: Lloyd Sieden's "new" book, _Buckminster Fuller's Universe: His Life & Work_, is actually just a paperback reprint of his original book, _Buckminster Fuller's Universe: An Appreciation_. The only difference is the title & the cover. Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 13:41:32 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Open Source Development Lab <> Brian Q. Hutchings 31-AUG-2000 13:41 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us sorry, I'd not quite recalled the word, Harpedonaptae -- I think, that's the spelling. those are the folks that went around, before Gauss et al developed optical geodesy, with Pythagorean rope-triangles, to reconnoiter the flooded marking of the farms on the nile. now, all the foregoing having been written in stone --or while stoned, as the case may have been-- as was noted to one of the original Dyaxionizers, Robert Gray, their is no material differnce between the dodecagonal (icosahedral) projection, and the icosagonal (dodecahedral) one, and possibly no possible advantage, either! so, what doth it all, mean? thus waith: with the Global Open Source Satellite Hapedonapterae (GOSSH, --Gush! http://www.tarpley.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 14:00:05 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brian Hutchings Subject: Re: Open Source Development Lab <> Brian Q. Hutchings 31-AUG-2000 14:00 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us regarding *Whole Earth Review* (in its association with Brand's Global Business Network and, thus, with the global cartel in oil (Royal Dutch (and British) Shell, in this instance, while our #1 "fossilieum-dystributor" is BP (and the prices took-off, as soon as it merged with Amoco/Arco/Castrol, thus almost finally reversing the break-up of Standard Oil)), the Fall issue's theme of "Beyond Left and Right" was notable for its signature-piece (?), using the theme of "The Matrix," which I have not seen (thank God (if any) !-) the funny thing is that, with no obvious reference, it could have been lifted from the pages of *EIR*, with the exceptions of the stone-left "daffynitions" of capitalism and so on.... sorry; Daffynitions, (tm, WSJ) ... and quite a few obnoxious references in the bibliography, as well as classics like Holly Sklar's (good synopsis, two .-) in other words, the knee-jerk usage of "Pax Americana," as in this article, must be understood to be a geopolitical tool of such entities as the Fabian Socialist "Third Way," "International Community," and so on; that is, explicitly, British. Hail britannica.com! thus quoth: of Bucky's Chronofile by a major university (Stanford, I think?) means that it will soon be catalogued and indexed. Yet another extremely powerful tool to the researcher. The Summer 2000 issue of _Whole Earth_ magazine includes a brief article on the entrepreneurial nature of non-profits these days. BFI could transition into such an organization with one project. --Gush! http://www.tarpley.net