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Date:         Fri, 1 Dec 2000 00:00:00 -0800
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From:         Patrick Salsbury <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info

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 _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________
                 Patrick G. Salsbury <salsbury@sculptors.com>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 08:29:05 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      triangles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Is any omni-triangulated structure geodesic? I think
so but I'm not sure. What I am after is the irregular
geodesic structure. Sort of a free-form thing.

Also, if one or several hubs of a geodesic structure
"pops in", I think the structure is just as sturdy as
before this event. Yes?

There isn't anything special about a spherical or
eliptical structure, is there? Isn't it basically a
special case of the general omni-triangulated geodesic
case?

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 09:01:17 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <20001202162905.29609.qmail@web4404.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 08:29 AM 12/02/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>Is any omni-triangulated structure geodesic? I think
>so but I'm not sure. What I am after is the irregular
>geodesic structure. Sort of a free-form thing.

I don't think "omnitriangulated" and "geodesic" are
synonymous terms.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 10:38:19 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      African Electrical Grid Update
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Global Electrical Grid Update: Africa

Ch 5, "Electricity" of report "Energy in Africa"

(US Dept of Energy, Energy Info Adm)

 http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/chapter5.html

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 11:01:28 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      The Americas Electrical Grid Update
Comments: cc: "Meisen, Peter" <petermeisen@cs.com>
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Global Electrical Grid update for North, Central & South America:

Chapter 5 "Electricity" of  the report "Energy in the Americas" (1999)
by the Energy Information Administration (US Dept of Energy)

 http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/chapter5a.html

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 11:30:53 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Grid Update-APEC Members
Comments: cc: "Meisen, Peter" <petermeisen@cs.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Global Electrical Grid update: Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation countries

"Electricity" section of the report "APEC: Energy Issues & Trends" (May
2000)
by the Energy Information Administration (US Dept of Energy)

 http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/apec/electricity.html

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 04:49:06 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      [Q-P] Blame???? -- the Greens

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            02-DEC-2000  4:49
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 ?Star Trek, The Galactic Confederacy?...
 !NO: the Stupid, economy needs an intermodal science-driver: Space'999!
 (The Exposition Right-of-way Study of  Feasability,
 proposed in my '98 run for Santa Monica Council; dig?)
 Dost thou believest when "capitalists" insist, they can get us
 into space on a dime?...  They cannot, wihtout gutting the rest
 of the infrastucture in the process.  (The energy requirements,
 alone, make this case, especially  factoring-in the reduction
 of glass-house gasses - in a non-malthusian way.)
    Even if it is not possible to orient a railgun (that is,
 'maglev to the skies'), considerations shows that,
 like the ring-structures of the gas-giant planets,
 there is plenty of room for harmonically-ordered satellites (but
 there are almost no "rational points" in an ellipse,
 which puts an upper bound on possible orbits).
    Yes, we want to include medium-rail for passengers & cargo,
 a bike path & so on - and have boating from the Pier, as well;
 all of these things are meant in the word, "intermodal."
 (On SM Council, Mike Feinstein is the guy who's worked
 with the ISTE people on this stuff.  Of course, Exposition goes
 through dowtown, virtually to the Pier,
 through the (now-a-days) Post-industrial Zone
 of SM (tha's entertainment; y'know?))
    Back to electricity (for railguns & e-cars &c.).  Back in May,
 when a British concern became our #1 dystributor of gasoline
 (and Castrol(; the price doubled & the profit septupled), and when
 the e-dereg suddenly became a seller's market from a known lack
 of new plants, it turns out that the generators, like Duke,
 Southern, Dynergy and AES, were then HQ'd out of state!...  Or,
 in other word, Scam - the very reason that FDR regulated e, and
 thereby brought it to markets that were not the most profitable,
 as with the Tennessee Valley Authority.  What does this imply
 for the immediata future of supposedly having the choice
 between 2 Yahoo!(s of 2nd-generation oil-wealth?
 Refs: 21stcenturysciencetech.com; www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
 Me: Space998@hotmail.com.  FDR-PAC: 888/EIR-3258.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 05:03:23 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Blame???? -- the Greens

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            02-DEC-2000  5:03
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I posted the foregoing to support the contention that
 Bore/Gush/Nadir are all alike on the Kyoto Protocols
 -- and it's not OPEC that'd get the most benefit, or set the price --
 and that the only 2politicians who ran in my jurisdiction
 who acknowledged this, in some way, were S.David Freeman (head
 of the Dept.of Water and Power, here) and Lyn (running
 for you-know-what, again); the former, after having to deal
 with me when he was running for Assembly, I'd suppose!

 Re: [Q-P] Nature magazine Nov 2,2000
 what happens to coral reefs as a glaciation advances?

 Re: [Q-P] Blame????
 instant-run-off is just a ploy of the PR people,
 who get-off on niggling over the rules of the game,
 while ignoring such anticonstitutional gambits
 as the Federal Reserve Act of '13 -- tahnks, Woodrow!

 Re: [Q-P] separation of church and state
 that was right-on.  Hugo Black was also a life-long member
 of the Ku Klux Klan, so you must take his ideal
 of seperation with chaker o'salt (Freemasonic ritual,
 anyone, at "level 33" ?-)

 Re: [Q-P] socialism???
 how was England's National Health Service so unique,
 following the war -- doesn't this apply to much of Europe?

 --The Duke of Oil!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 06:40:05 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: traingles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            02-DEC-2000  6:40
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

    "geodesic" refers to a least-action path between 2 places (or
     "points"), generally not a straight line (in a field,
     as of gravity e.g.: look-up "brachistochrone" (tautochrone), or
     just slalom into it .-)
        you may be correct about the *shape* being "as sturdy"
     after a hub pops inward, but wouldn't that depend
     upon the flexability of the hub?

     thus quoth:
      geodesic structure. Sort of a free-form thing.

      Also, if one or several hubs of a geodesic structure

     --The Duke of Oil!
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 13:53:38 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: traingles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>         you may be correct about the *shape* being
> "as sturdy"
>      after a hub pops inward, but wouldn't that
> depend
>      upon the flexability of the hub?


I am picturing a completely flexible hub. You know,
like tube and string construction. And I am picturing
odd-shaped structures, maybe similar-looking to a
lobster claw or another ectoskeleton.

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 22:33:25 -0500
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From:         Bob Burkhardt <bobwb@CHANNEL1.COM>
Subject:      Re: FWD: Tensegrity
Comments: To: kory@concam.com, metrolyke@yahoo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Kory and Danny,

There is Hugh Kenner's book, Geodesic Math which has a good
section on tensegrity but is out of print.  An easy approach for models
is to build using something very
elastic (like rubber bands) for tendons, take measurements (averaging
measurements for symmetrically equivalent tendons) and rebuild the
structure using braided nylon fishing line, wire or
something else less elastic.  I plan to put some of
my book on line in the near future.  It is entirely
devoted to tensegrity calculations.  I'll CC your
emails to the GEODESIC mailing list and see if they
can give you help.

Bob

Kory Gunnerson wrote:

> From: kory@concam.com
> To: bobwb@juno.com
> Sent: December 1, 2000 10:38:10 PM GMT
> Subject: Tensegrity
>
> Bob,
>
> I have recently found interest in tensegrity as an art form. and would love
> to attempt construction of basic forms but every time I have attempted a
> basic structure I have been unable to determine the proper length of the
> tendons. If you could point me in the direction of any good reference
> materials it would be greatly appreciated. (Unfortunately I have no good
> access to a college library, so preferably commonly available books that I
> can order, or software) Thank you.
>
> Kory Gunnerson

Danny Shervington wrote:

From: Danny Shervington <metrolyke@yahoo.com>
To: bobwb@juno.com
Sent: November 27, 2000 7:39:37 PM GMT
Subject: tensegrity dome

Hello Mr. Burkhardt,

My name is Danny Shervington, I am an architecture student at the
University of Missouri-Kansas City.  We are currently doing a project on
tensegrity.  I have been researching techniques on how to assemble a
tensegrity dome.  I discovered your website and would like to inquire on
how you have designed and put together the 4 and 8 double layer domes.
I
have tried to come up with a way to put them together without the
members
touching, with no success.

If you have any information that would be helpful and I would be
eternally
greatful.

Sincerely,
Danny Shervington
metrolyke@yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 2 Dec 2000 22:51:36 -0800
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From:         Michael Mitchell <syntrivity@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Syntropy vs. Entropy = Isotropy = syntrivity = unitivity
MIME-Version: 1.0
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One
may say that the mind is entropy conserved. (see my publication, in
"GOOD NEWS" vol.1 by Edwin Schlossberg 1967)

that the opposite and equal reaction of events in the mind are making
syntropy in the mind and then
conserved and in this way the universe makes its self not a big bang.
One may also say that the mind sees
and conserves not only entropy but syntropy as well. This is more of a
conservation of the big bang as well.
Me, I, as a Unitivitist sees the mind seeing entropy, and syntropy in
isotropy as the dymaxion volume that is now-ness
being conserved as syntrivity or three events being one giving
unitivity. In this respect big bang is conserved in my mind.
This makes the big bang conserved or the reverse of it. Isotropy is
unitivity. The respect that now ness- always has one radii.
The unitivity radii. Any radii may be an axis. The unitivity radii is
the axis of all events. All radii may be harmonic as frequency
modulations of the one radii of the universe axis  being the same
isotropic balance of mind and matter. The mind is the radii omni-origin
axis.

God bless the Fuller family and friends...
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 2000 12:01:07 -0800
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Money, Gold, Stock Market, Inflation, Deflation and You
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Interesting article on the world's unsound financial policies.

http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/9024/

Does anyone know of a good introductory article on kilowatt
currency (on the web) which I could sent to the site's author?

Dexter Graphic

"Never be afraid to follow truth, beauty, and goodness wherever
they may lead you."  DG
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 2000 20:44:23 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Money, Gold, Stock Market, Inflation, Deflation and You
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dexter,

They're not online as far as I know, but here are some refs to "Accounting,
Kilowatt"
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Energy.htm

If you have one of the books mentioned, maybe you could scan the referenced
pages.

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dexter Graphic" <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2000 12:01 PM
Subject: Money, Gold, Stock Market, Inflation, Deflation and You


> Interesting article on the world's unsound financial policies.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/Floor/9024/
>
> Does anyone know of a good introductory article on kilowatt
> currency (on the web) which I could sent to the site's author?
>
> Dexter Graphic
>
> "Never be afraid to follow truth, beauty, and goodness wherever
> they may lead you."  DG
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 2000 20:53:51 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: FWD: Tensegrity
Comments: cc: kory@concam.com, metrolyke@yahoo.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kory & Danny,

For a list of references about tensegrities see
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Tem-Tetq.htm
(scroll down to "Tensegrity")

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Burkhardt" <bobwb@CHANNEL1.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2000 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: FWD: Tensegrity


> Hi Kory and Danny,
>
> There is Hugh Kenner's book, Geodesic Math which has a good
> section on tensegrity but is out of print.  An easy approach for models
> is to build using something very
> elastic (like rubber bands) for tendons, take measurements (averaging
> measurements for symmetrically equivalent tendons) and rebuild the
> structure using braided nylon fishing line, wire or
> something else less elastic.  I plan to put some of
> my book on line in the near future.  It is entirely
> devoted to tensegrity calculations.  I'll CC your
> emails to the GEODESIC mailing list and see if they
> can give you help.
>
> Bob
>
> Kory Gunnerson wrote:
>
> > From: kory@concam.com
> > To: bobwb@juno.com
> > Sent: December 1, 2000 10:38:10 PM GMT
> > Subject: Tensegrity
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > I have recently found interest in tensegrity as an art form. and would
love
> > to attempt construction of basic forms but every time I have attempted a
> > basic structure I have been unable to determine the proper length of the
> > tendons. If you could point me in the direction of any good reference
> > materials it would be greatly appreciated. (Unfortunately I have no good
> > access to a college library, so preferably commonly available books that
I
> > can order, or software) Thank you.
> >
> > Kory Gunnerson
>
> Danny Shervington wrote:
>
> From: Danny Shervington <metrolyke@yahoo.com>
> To: bobwb@juno.com
> Sent: November 27, 2000 7:39:37 PM GMT
> Subject: tensegrity dome
>
> Hello Mr. Burkhardt,
>
> My name is Danny Shervington, I am an architecture student at the
> University of Missouri-Kansas City.  We are currently doing a project on
> tensegrity.  I have been researching techniques on how to assemble a
> tensegrity dome.  I discovered your website and would like to inquire on
> how you have designed and put together the 4 and 8 double layer domes.
> I have tried to come up with a way to put them together without the
> members touching, with no success.
>
> If you have any information that would be helpful and I would be
> eternally greatful.
>
> Sincerely,
> Danny Shervington
> metrolyke@yahoo.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 3 Dec 2000 21:03:15 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Message from a Pargar company
Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mohammad,

For an extensive collection of references about domes see
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Dome-Dt.htm

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "The DomeHome List" <rowley@looknfeel.com>
To: <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 9:50 AM
Subject: Fwd: Message from a Pargar company
>
> Got this message, perhaps from a browser at the DomeGroup.org site. Don't
> know what to do with it (except reply), so I'm passing it to the DomeHome
List.
>
> jmr
>
> ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ----------------
> Date:        5/18/99 2:30 AM
> From:        mohammad, pargar@accir.com
>
> Dear Sir/Miss,

> Hello. We are a Pargar company from Asia . We work on geodesic dome,
> tensional and spaceframe structures . We need more information
> about this structures for example details, covers, softwares and
materials.
> If it is possible please send some information or references about it .

> Thank you,

> Mohammad
> Pargar Company
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 2000 07:44:39 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Kirby- Can you elaborate a little, please? I get that
a geodesic relationship is the most economical one
between events. The most direct connection, in other
words. And a crossing, as in a hub or a vertex of a
particular structure, is the event in question. But
wouldn't that mean that a geodesic relationship
between two crossings is the leg of the two triangles
that connects the two vertices (event)?

So, if omnitriangulated is not the same as geodesic,
can't I say that an omnitriangulated structure is a
geodesic structure, by definition?

Dick


--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> At 08:29 AM 12/02/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >Is any omni-triangulated structure geodesic? I
> think
> >so but I'm not sure. What I am after is the
> irregular
> >geodesic structure. Sort of a free-form thing.
>
> I don't think "omnitriangulated" and "geodesic" are
> synonymous terms.
>
> Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 2000 08:04:25 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: self-adjusting
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Lee- I like you ball-inflation analogy. This helps. As
usual, the best way for me to explore this question is
to make more models!

I wonder if the complicated math of geodesic domes has
hindered non-math-oriented people(like me) building
domes. I am committed to simplifying geodesic
construction. As I said, I think nature has a way of
constructing structures, so that the elements of the
structure arrange themselves, into the most
economical(least-energy-costing) relationship. A well
understood, micro-construction example of this is how
a catalyst helps otherwise uncooperative molecules to
join.

Dick
--- Lee Bonnifield <lee@PLANETC.COM> wrote:
> > Has anyone experimented with self-adjusting hubs
> and/or struts?
>
> One end of one strut on my 12' tensegrity is a bolt
> about 1/2" diameter
> and 18" long. Using a wrench to spin a nut in or out
> changes the tension
> of the 4 tendons on the outside of the nut. Of
> course that change is
> spread among the other 44 tendons too, so depending
> on what you want
> your tensegrity to do you may get by with only one
> adjustable strut.
> This one was just supposed to stand up on 3 ends,
> and I think increasing
> the length of only one strut can handle that
> adjustment (if the other
> struts don't bow too much.) It's like pumping air
> into a flat basketball
> until the surface tension is high
> enough (equivalently, until the air pressure inside
> is high enough) to
> make it round -- it doesn't matter where you pump
> the air in.
>
> I built an 18" 12 strut plastic straw tensegrity
> where each strut was
> made of two straws butted end to end over a 2" piece
> of a third straw.
> Then instead of adjusting the lengths of tendons it
> was easier to tune
> it by cutting 1/8" off the middle end of one of the
> straws in a strut
> that was bowing, or adding a 1/8" ring in the middle
> of a strut that was
> too loose.
>
> That technique of struts that have a joint in the
> middle makes an easy
> way to assemble a 12 strut cuboctahedron. Poke holes
> in a cardboard
> box - 4 holes on each side -- and then stick half a
> strut in each hole.
> Tendons of the correct length are slack when they're
> tied to the 24 ends
> sticking out. Tie a loose  square around the 4
> half-struts sticking out
> of each side of the box.  Tie a loose triangle
> around the 3 half-struts
> at each corner of the box. Then stick the
> appropriate (details on
> request) half-struts together. You don't have to
> deal with any tension
> in the tendons until the last few pairs of
> half-struts are being
> assembled.
>
> If you had a couple of telescoping tubes for each
> strut (cardboard cores
> for wrapping paper?) you could collapse a fully
> wired tensegrity for
> shipping by sliding one tube inside the other, then
> erect it by pulling
> all the tubes out to their correct length. Or use a
> hinged strut, so
> erection is just straightening and stiffening all 12
> hinges.
>
> If you could adjust the length of all the struts
> quickly enough
> (hydraulic motors?) I bet you could make a
> cuboctahedron roll on a flat
> surface, in a
> controlled direction.  Or you could make your
> half-dome home crawl like
> a round centipede.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 2000 09:49:45 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Photovault Image
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The CD Dome at the annual Burning Man event:


http://www.photovault.com/Link/People/Fantasy/eBurningMan/show.asp?tg=PFEVol
ume01/PFEV01P10_12

http://www.photovault.com/Link/People/Fantasy/eBurningMan/show.asp?tg=PFEVol
ume01/PFEV01P10_15

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 4 Dec 2000 12:07:39 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <20001202162905.29609.qmail@web4404.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

If you add 6 diagonals to the six squares of
the cube, you have an omnitriangulated cube.
Would you call this a geodesic structure?
I wouldn't.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 2000 09:18:13 -0500
Reply-To:     nugentj@ameritech.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         nugentj@AMERITECH.NET
Subject:      NYTimes.com Article: Juggling Buckyballs Raises Hope of Warmer
              Superconductors

This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by Jim Nugent nugentj@ameritech.net.

Geodesic List



Jim Nugent
nugentj@ameritech.net

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Juggling Buckyballs Raises Hope of Warmer Superconductors
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/05/science/05BUCK.html

December 5, 2000

By KENNETH CHANG

Add a layer of aluminum oxide to a crystal made of neatly stacked
soccer-ball shaped carbon molecules known as buckyballs, and the
result is a superconductor that effortlessly carries electricity at
relatively warm temperatures.

 Writing in the current issue of the journal Nature, researchers
from Lucent Technologies Inc.'s Bell Labs in Murray Hill, N.J.,
report that the buckyball-aluminum oxide combination remains
superconducting at temperatures up to minus-366 degrees, or about
94 degrees above absolute zero.

 That is still considerably colder than the temperatures that
so-called high-temperature superconductors can work at, but the
researchers believe that they can tweak the buckyball crystal to
raise the superconducting temperature an additional 80 degrees or
more.

 That would be warm enough for the buckyball superconductors to
work while cooled by liquid nitrogen instead of much more expensive
liquid helium, greatly improving the prospects of eventual
practical applications.

 "I believe the prospects are quite interesting," said Dr. Olle
Gunnarsson, a physicist at the Max Planck Institute for Solid State
Research in Stuttgart, Germany, who wrote an accompanying
commentary to the Nature article. "It's very hard to know how high
it will go."

 In 1991, scientists at Bell Labs, then part of AT&T, first
discovered that buckyballs   molecules made of 60 carbon molecules
arrayed in the shape of a soccer ball   can be turned into
superconductors when mixed with potassium. Buckyballs are named
after R. Buckminster Fuller, designer of the geodesic dome that
they resemble.

 Superconductors can carry electrical current without any
resistance.

 But the buckyballs switched back into insulators at temperatures
above minus-427 degrees, and further research nudged the transition
temperature to minus-400.

 Even that was a scientifically noteworthy accomplishment
conventional superconductors up to that point had topped out at
about minus- 418.

 High-temperature superconductors, which work by a different
mechanism still not understood by scientists, have transition
temperatures as warm as minus-164 degrees. High- temperature
superconductors, made of copper oxides, tend to be brittle,
however.

 Buckyball superconductors could potentially be more amenable for
some applications, but buckyballs also have complications: they
tend to degrade in the presence of oxygen.

 In the latest efforts, instead of adding potassium, the layer of
aluminum oxide along with three gold electrodes form an electronic
device known as a field-effect transistor on the surface of a pure
crystal of buckyballs.

 The potassium had contributed electrons that carried electric
current by hopping from buckyball to buckyball.

 Theoretical calculations had indicated that buckyballs might be
better superconductors if one could remove electrons instead of
adding them, but buckyballs tend to cling onto their electrons very
tightly.

 With the transistor, the researchers were able to apply an
electric field that could draw electrons away from the buckyballs
or drive additional electrons onto them. By varying the strength of
the electric field, they found that the buckyballs reached their
highest superconducting temperature when, on average, three
electrons were missing per buckyball.

 Calculations indicate the temperature can be increased further if
the buckyballs could be spaced farther apart by wedging other
molecules between them.

 "That would be a pretty dramatic result," said Dr. Robert C.
Haddon, who led the original buckyball superconductor research at
Bell Labs and is a now professor of chemistry and chemical
engineering at University of California at Riverside.

 Dr. Bertram Batlogg, leader of the Bell Labs team, said: "The
principle is quite straightforward. It's going to be a matter of
clever chemistry to implement this idea."

 With the electric field of the transistor changing the electrical
properties of the buckyballs, Dr. Gunnarsson imagined using them as
a simple switch.

 Turn the electric field on, and current flows through the
superconducting buckyballs. Turn the field off, and the current is
cut off.

 "At this point, we haven't thought much about potential
applications," said Dr. J. Hendrik Schön, a physicist at Bell Labs
and a member of the research team.

 By attaching transistors to other organic crystals, the
researchers hope to find other superconductors at work at perhaps
even higher temperatures.

 In earlier research, the technique had already previously yielded
a laser. "We are playing on the theme very successfully," Dr.
Batlogg said. "This way of exploring materials for new phenomena is
what's different, what's particularly fruitful."



The New York Times on the Web
http://www.nytimes.com

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 2000 15:54:52 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> If you add 6 diagonals to the six squares of
> the cube, you have an omnitriangulated cube.
> Would you call this a geodesic structure?
> I wouldn't.
>
> Kirby

But say all of the now 18 struts were adjusted to be
as close to the same length as possible. I think this
would be an 8-vertexation. Not very pretty, but, hey.
No?

I liked your page about splitting vertices and adding
one strut at a time to a structure.

http://inetarena.com/~pdx4d/synergetica/proof.html#EVE

My favorite geodesic structure is not the tetrahedron
but the lowly 5-vertexation. It probably has another
name. Some say it is two tetrahedrons joined face to
face.

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 5 Dec 2000 16:07:48 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <20001205235452.23993.qmail@web4404.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 03:54 PM 12/05/2000 -0800, Dick Fischbeck wrote:
>--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
>> If you add 6 diagonals to the six squares of
>> the cube, you have an omnitriangulated cube.
>> Would you call this a geodesic structure?
>> I wouldn't.
>>
>> Kirby
>
>But say all of the now 18 struts were adjusted to be
>as close to the same length as possible. I think this
>would be an 8-vertexation. Not very pretty, but, hey.
>No?

Even if we call it an 8-vertexation, we're still
not calling the diagonalized cube a geodesic, are we?
That was your question I think, the difference
between "omnitriangulated" and "geodesic".  I
think there is one.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:20:39 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Geodesic Models
Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Cindy,

My research indicates that the panelized type of domes should be about 1/3
less expensive than the hub-&-strut type (for various reasons that I won't
go into now).  To the best of my knowledge at the present time, there is
only one panelized-dome manufacturer (in the world) whose product will not
burn, rot or be eaten by bugs: http://www.aidomes.com/ .  This is my own
personal opinion; I am not associated in any way with ANY dome-related
company whatsoever.

Ref: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Dome-Dt.htm

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

(PS: Sorry guys, but that's the way I see it.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "The DomeHome List" <rowley@mail.telalink.net>
To: <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:27 AM
Subject: re: Geodesic Models
> ----------
> From: vendian ca <tunicate89@yahoo.com>
> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2000 18:55:24 -0800 (PST)
>
> Hello.
>
> I am new to this group and thought I'd introduce
> myself.  For a long time, I have been fascinated by
> dome structures and have dreamed of building one
> myself.  I am now looking to build a dome home
> (possibly a double dome) in the central CA coastal
> area within the next year.  However, I have not
> decided which contractor to use or which dome supplier
> to order from....basically I am in the research phase
> right now.
>
> Could any of you offer advice/opinions on the
> advantages/disadvantages of "panelized dome kits"
> versus "hub and strut" dome kits?  Also, does anyone
> know of a good contractor...and any opinions on the
> best dome supplier?
>
> Thanks in advance to all!
>
> Cindy
> tunicate89@yahoo.com
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:25:53 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> At 03:54 PM 12/05/2000 -0800, Dick Fischbeck wrote:
> >--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> >> If you add 6 diagonals to the six squares of
> >> the cube, you have an omnitriangulated cube.
> >> Would you call this a geodesic structure?
> >> I wouldn't.
> >>
> >> Kirby
> >
> >But say all of the now 18 struts were adjusted to
> be
> >as close to the same length as possible. I think
> this
> >would be an 8-vertexation. Not very pretty, but,
> hey.
> >No?
>
> Even if we call it an 8-vertexation, we're still
> not calling the diagonalized cube a geodesic, are
> we?
> That was your question I think, the difference
> between "omnitriangulated" and "geodesic".  I
> think there is one.
>
> Kirby

What is the difference?

The 8-vertexation has at least two configurations. One
has 2 three strut hubs, 6 six strut hubs. The other
has 4 four strut hubs, 4 five strut hubs. The second
kind is a very pretty model made with sticks and
rubber bands. And seems to be just like any other
model made that way. I also made one by starting with
the octahedron and added 2 tetrahedrons(6 new struts).
Same thing.

I am not trying to be a pain. To me, geodesic may mean
omni triangulated. I also see geodesic, tensegrity,
and omni triangulated as equivalent and displaying the
same behavior.

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:32:11 -0800
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Subject:      Re: Geodesic Models
MIME-Version: 1.0
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(will not)
> burn, rot or be eaten by bugs:


Me too. I agree that this is critical and most
desirable.

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 10:45:33 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dick,

The way I understand it, a geodesic is the shortest distance between two
points on the surface of a sphere.  A geodesic line can be extended all the
way around a sphere so that it comes back upon itself, like the equator,
splitting the sphere in two.  A kind of line that can cut through the center
of a sphere is called a "Great Circle".  If it can't be cut through the
sphere's center, then it is not a geodesic, but a "Lesser Circle".  Because
they are more efficient (shorter), Fuller used great circles to design his
domes &, of course, he used the minimum number--depending on his purpose.
Also, for reasons of stability & strength, he was only interested in
triangulated great circles.

See Glossary at http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Glossary/Glossary.htm

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Fischbeck" <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: triangles

(snip)

> I am not trying to be a pain. To me, geodesic may mean
> omni triangulated. I also see geodesic, tensegrity,
> and omni triangulated as equivalent and displaying the
> same behavior.
>
> Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 04:27:26 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: triangles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            06-DEC-2000  4:27
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Dick;
    what you refer to as the "vertexation" of 4 four-strut and
 4 five-strut hubs, is one of the deltahedra,
 the dodecadeltahedron (of 18 struts; Bucky's nouveau-posthumous
 nomenclature was, -vertexion; I use, as Weggener, octagon,
 for the 8-vertex job (regular, a.k.a. The Cube, or less-so,
 the dodecadeltahedron).
    so, your pentavertexion is a hexadeltahedron,
 in the list of convex shapes, although the *other* pentagon (-vertexion)
 happens to be the only other shape, other than the tetrahedron
 that is autodual; combine them, and wha'd'y'get -- and
 what is it's dual?

 --The End of Hitory!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:41:47 -0800
Reply-To:     peter@geni.org
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From:         geni <peter@GENI.ORG>
Subject:      GENI e-mail change
Comments: To: "A. Najafpour" <anajafpour@nri.ac.ir>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Please change the GENI - Peter Meisen e-mail

From:      geni@cerf.net  (no longer active)
To:         peter@geni.org

Thanks,
Peter Meisen

Global Energy Network Institute: working to engineer peace and
sustainable development.  www.geni.org
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 13:47:06 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM> wrote:
> Dick,
>
> The way I understand it, a geodesic is the shortest
> distance between two
> points on the surface of a sphere.

But what about non-spherical structures?  They, too,
can be described as geodesic, maybe. Any local area of
a non-spherical shape probably can be considered
spherical for the purpose of showing its geodesic
nature. I do not think the symmetry of a structure has
anything to do with it qualifying as geodesic, does
it?

I think a 4-vertexion(thanks, Brian, for the
nomenclature correction), a 12-vertexion, a
13-vertexion, or a 720-vertexion are all geodesic
structures. I can't see how they wouldn't be. I think
a geodesic structure can even have negatively curved
portions(with convex outward sections) and any other
shape we can imagine. I think we can build a geodesic
anything.

I am building models(and one full size dome) of
structures based strictly on the number of vertices.
They are not sub-divisions of the tetra, octa, or
icosahedron. That is where I am heading with this
thinking.

Since the name of this list is GEODESIC, we might be
able to explain this. .)

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:25:43 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Save International Operations and Human Rights Subcommi

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            06-DEC-2000 11:25
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 isn't that an uphill battle (sic), with either a Bush or a Gore regime
 (it was Gore's Principal's Cmte.-cum-Cabinet that was pushin much
 of the Bush Imperium's interventions -- continuiuty) ??
    don't you think, with Albright et Al's insistent prattling
 over "democracy" in other nations,
 that the Voting Rights Clarification Act of 2000 (HR-4961;
 Mel Watt (D)) hsould be taken off of the table --
 no matter if it exposes the corruption of both Gush campaigns?
    did you know of the Surpeme Court's decision of March 27th,
 effectively nullifying the provisions of the VRA o'65,
 that applied to the (now, just like any other) "private" Democratic Party
 -- and all of the others, state or national?

 --The End of History!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm

 thus quoth:
    *Implementation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:35:53 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: triangles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            06-DEC-2000 11:35
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Bucky's nomenclature derives from his earliest experiments
 using linear (strut) elements; you could be just as accurate,
 in the generic case, to say "domes," or his usage of "spherics,"
 for the not-neccesarily-building things.
    their is no particular dystinction between polygona (polyvertexia,
 in Bucky's neologism) and polyhedra, since they are duals.  however,
 the deltahedra (convex, and not just those of equigonal triga)
 come in twosies of trigona (triangles), whereas the ennumeration
 by vertices increases by ones; hey!

 but, that dualization is really essential for grokking the subject,
 which Bucky didn't get til the last moment, as it were, "posthumously" --
 it may have been Kuromiya's idea, as well!

 --The New World Order!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
 thus quoth:
  I am building models(and one full size dome) of
  structures based strictly on the number of vertices.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:32:53 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <200012061935.eB6JZrd18182@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

> but, that dualization is really essential for grokking the subject,
> which Bucky didn't get til the last moment, as it were, "posthumously" --
> it may have been Kuromiya's idea, as well!
>

More of the usual BS.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 18:34:19 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <20001206214706.15403.qmail@web4404.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:47 PM 12/06/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM> wrote:
>> Dick,
>>
>> The way I understand it, a geodesic is the shortest
>> distance between two
>> points on the surface of a sphere.
>
>But what about non-spherical structures?  They, too,
>can be described as geodesic, maybe. Any local area of
>a non-spherical shape probably can be considered
>spherical for the purpose of showing its geodesic
>nature.

So if it's not spherical, make it be spherical for the
purposes of showing it's geodesic...

This stuff isn't making a lot of sense to me.  I guess
I'll stop trying -- seems like you've already answered
your own question anyway.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 11:45:55 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] oil prices

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            06-DEC-2000 11:45
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 good point about gas-fired plants in CA.  In Santa Monica,
 they just passed a measure to take the utility tax off
 of gas for vehicles (compressed or liquid?), although
 that is going to increase the "market" for the stuff, even more.
    ever since Standard Oil started pumping at Huntington Beach,
 you can hardly find a tarball over hear, next to the Redondo Seep!

 anyway, the catalytic converters are the exact wrong way to go, since
 they decrease mileage so much, considierng that
 there are plenty of ways to get better conversion, into the powerstroke;
 animals are "internal combustion units," two!

 thus quoth:
  Absolutely. Scarcity is sometimes priced in when it is acknowledged. But
  international energy agencies now assume that the Arabs are lying about
  their resources (using 50% confidence levels rather than 90% confidence
  levels, perhaps) in order to sell more.

 not sure what in Hell that means, but I do know that
 a British concern became our #1 dystributor of gasoline and Castrol,
 moments before the price started to double (and their profits,
 septuple -- those dirty fossilisers !-)

 >  --The End of Hitory!
 >  http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 12:04:17 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Why isn't the Electoral College just broken?

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            06-DEC-2000 12:04
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 (Also, Street's Re: [Q-P] Global Warming Conference )

 Broken, or messed-up from the beginning?...  You fail to see the raison
 d'etre:
 to counter the beast of *vox populi*, by having the EC as a *deliberative
 body*
 -- why we live in a democratic republci, and not a "pure democracy" --
 in spight of the blood-curdling cries form Madeline Albright!
    The twice that the EC has worked, in the past, were minor salvations
 (at least; the other time, Congress set-up a National Electoral
 Commission, because
 the EC couldn't decide, as I recall).

 thus quoth:
  Who believes the Framers of the Constitution were trying to be
  "fair" to African-Americans?  Clearly they were not, nor was
  the electoral college the worst of their sins in this regard.


 Ms.Street, it is relatively easy to show that the "hole" in the ozone and
 the "overall" warming of glass-house gasses, conceptually cancel
 each-other out
 -- in spite of any number of computerized simulacra (or an infinity of'em
 !-)
    It is largely a matter of spherical geometry, or navigiation, if you
 will.

 Re: [Q-P] Global Warming Conference
 I would be interested in seeing the Green alternative. The last version I
  saw will increase GHG emissions substantially over Business As Usual. The
  Greens might consider the same resources that Gore uses: the reports of
 the

 --The End of History!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:44:42 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Bucky Play held over in S.F.
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
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Bucky Play held over in S.F. - special ticket offerBucky play still =
going in SF; sure hope it ends up in NYC.  I've seen it & it's very =
good!  Also, if you want to meet Bucky's daughter and her husband who =
did the video "The World of Buckminster Fuller", see Dec 23 announcement =
below.

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Buckminster Fuller Institute=20
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 5:14 PM
Subject: Bucky Play held over in S.F. - special ticket offer


Hello Members and Supporters of the Buckminster Fuller Institute

----Special Announcement----

The one man play "R. Buckminster Fuller: The History (and Mystery) of =
the Universe" is being held over in San Francisco until December 31, and =
we have a special 2-for-1 offer for you and your friends this week. Plus =
there will be a Free post play discussion series.

See below for details.=20

-------------------------------------------
Bucky to stay in San Francisco for the holidays
Due to popular demand, Foghouse.com has announced "R. Buckminster =
Fuller: The History (and Mystery) of the Universe" will extend the =
current run in San Francisco for a final four weeks only, through =
December 31, 2000.

The new performance schedule concludes with a celebratory New Years Eve =
3 p.m. matinee, Sunday, December 31.=20

Now playing in the vaulted, neo-gothic splendor of George Coates =
Performance Works, a distinctive renovated church located at 110 =
McAllister, one block from the Civic Center.

Tickets are available on line at http://www.foghouse.com or by calling =
City Box Office at 415/ 392-4400.

"R. Buckminster Fuller: THE HISTORY (and Mystery) OF THE UNIVERSE," =
written and directed by D. W. Jacobs and starring "the mesmerizing Ron =
Campbell" (San Francisco Examiner). The play has been broadly acclaimed =
by Bay Area critics:

"It=B9s hard to imagine a better one-man performance" (San Francisco =
Chronicle).=20

"An unforgettable evening of theater" (Contra Costa Times).=20

This exuberant one man play, based on the life and writings of the =
visionary thinker-inventor-philosopher, Buckminster Fuller, =
affectionately known as OBucky,=B9 "is startlingly funny, intellectually =
stimulating and genuinely moving" (San Francisco Examiner).=20

-------------------------------------------
2- for-1 Special
The producers of the play, Foghouse.com, are offering to our e-list a =
special this week:  2 tickets for the price of 1.

That=B9s for this week only: Wednesday through Sunday (Dec. 6 =AD Dec. =
10).=20

Show times are Wednesday through Saturday at 8 p.m.=20
and Saturday and Sunday 3 p.m.

To take advantage of this opportunity call the box office at 415/ =
392-4400 or get your tickets at the window and mention the Bucky =
2-for-1. This special is not available through online ticket purchases.

-------------------------------------------
Bucky Up Close



A Free Post Play Discussion Series
Sponsored by the Buckminster Fuller Institute in association with the =
play,=20
"R. Buckminster Fuller: The History (and Mystery) of the Universe."=20

Join us as special guests recount their unique,=20
personal experiences with Buckminster Fuller.

When: Sundays,December 10 and 17 and Saturday, December 23.
Time: Starting about 5:30 p.m., for an hour, following the 3 p.m. =
matinees=20
Where: George Coates Performance Works, 110 McAllister, (Civic Center) =
San Francisco


Sunday, December 10

D.W. Jacobs (Writer/Director of HISTORY/MYSTERY)
D. W. Jacobs co-founded San Diego Repertory Theatre in 1976, and served =
as its Artistic Director until 1997. He now works as a free-lance =
writer, director, actor and teacher.

Ron Campbell (Performs "Bucky" in HISTORY/MYSTERY)
Ron Campbell has received the London Fringe One-man Show of the Year =
Award and the Los Angeles Drama Critics Circle Award for his performance =
in The Thousandth Night. Ron has performed in 25 Shakespeare productions =
and has appeared in many television shows.



Sunday, December 17

Jaime Snyder (Media producer and Bucky's grandson)
He is a composer, producer, director, and co-founder of the Buckminster =
Fuller Institute. Jaime traveled extensively with Bucky on his lecture =
tours during the last years of his life.

Ruth Asawa (San Francisco artist and friend of Bucky's)
Ruth Asawa=B9s sculpture and fountains are prominent in public gardens =
and plazas around the country. Her work has been featured in solo =
exhibitions by more than a dozen museums. She worked with Buckminster =
Fuller and studied art at Black Mountain College in North Carolina along =
side Merce Cunningham and John Cage.



Saturday, December 23

Allegra Fuller Snyder (Dance ethnologist and Bucky's daughter)
She is Professor Emerita and former Chair of UCLA Department of Dance, =
founding Coordinator of the World Arts and Cultures Program, and =
co-founder of the Buckminster Fuller Institute.

Robert Snyder (Academy Award winning filmmaker and Bucky documentarian)
Robert Snyder has produced and directed numerous films including =
biographies on Pablo Casals, Henry Miller, Buckminster Fuller and =
others. Many of his films have won critical acclaim and international =
film awards, from the CINE Golden Eagle to the Oscar.

For more info about the Discussion Series contact the Buckminster Fuller =
Institute at 707-824-2242

-------------------------------------------
The Buckminster Fuller Institute (BFI), a 501 (c)(3) nonprofit =
organization, is a diverse group of individuals committed to a =
successful and sustainable future for 100% of humanity. Founded in 1983 =
and inspired by the design science principles pioneered by the late =
Buckminster Fuller, BFI serves as an information resource to students, =
educators, authors, designers and concerned citizens working to advance =
humanity's option for success.

Buckminster Fuller Institute
111 N. Main Street
Sebastopol, California 95472    =20
707-824-2242     707-824-2243 fax
info@bfi.org       http://www.bfi.org

Working to Advance Humanity's Option for Success
-------------------------------------------
If you would like to be removed from this e-mail list please hit reply =
and simply type "Remove" in the body of your e-mail.

If you have any suggestions for future e-mail announcements please =
contact us at info@bfi.org.


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Bucky Play held over in S.F. - special ticket =
offer</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000080><STRONG>Bucky play =
still going=20
in SF; sure hope it ends up in NYC.&nbsp; I've seen it &amp; it's very=20
good!&nbsp; Also, if you want to meet Bucky's daughter and her husband =
who did=20
the video "The World of Buckminster Fuller", see Dec 23 announcement=20
below.</STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000080>Joe S =
Moore:=20
</FONT></STRONG><A href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com"><STRONG><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
color=3D#000080>joemoore@cruzio.com</FONT></STRONG></A><BR><STRONG><FONT =

face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000080>Buckminster Fuller Virtual =
Institute:=20
</FONT></STRONG><A =
href=3D"http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/"><STRONG><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
color=3D#000080>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/</FONT></STRONG></A><BR>&=
nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message -----=20
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A=20
title=3Dinfo@bfi.org href=3D"mailto:info@bfi.org">Buckminster Fuller =
Institute</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 06, 2000 5:14 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Bucky Play held over in S.F. - special ticket=20
offer</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=3DGeneva><B>Hello Members and Supporters of =
the=20
Buckminster Fuller Institute<BR><BR></B>----Special =
Announcement----<BR><BR>The=20
one man play "R. Buckminster Fuller: The History (and Mystery) of the =
Universe"=20
is being <U>held over in San Francisco until December 31,</U> and we =
have a=20
<U>special 2-for-1 offer</U> for you and your friends this week. Plus =
there will=20
be a <U>Free post play discussion series</U>.<BR><BR>See below for =
details.=20
<BR><BR><FONT =
size=3D5>-------------------------------------------<BR></FONT><FONT=20
size=3D4><B>Bucky to stay in San Francisco for the =
holidays<BR></B></FONT>Due to=20
popular demand, Foghouse.com has announced "R. Buckminster Fuller: The =
History=20
(and Mystery) of the Universe" will extend the current run in San =
Francisco for=20
a final four weeks only, through December 31, 2000.<BR><BR>The new =
performance=20
schedule concludes with a celebratory New Years Eve 3 p.m. matinee, =
Sunday,=20
December 31. <BR><BR>Now playing in the vaulted, neo-gothic splendor of =
George=20
Coates Performance Works, a distinctive renovated church located at 110=20
McAllister, one block from the Civic Center.<BR><BR>Tickets are =
available on=20
line at http://www.foghouse.com or by calling City Box Office at 415/=20
392-4400.<BR><BR><B>"R. Buckminster Fuller: THE HISTORY (and Mystery) OF =
THE=20
UNIVERSE,"</B> written and directed by D. W. Jacobs and starring "the=20
mesmerizing Ron Campbell" (San Francisco Examiner). The play has been =
broadly=20
acclaimed by Bay Area critics:<BR><BR>"It=B9s hard to imagine a better =
one-man=20
performance" (San Francisco Chronicle). <BR><BR>"An unforgettable =
evening of=20
theater" (Contra Costa Times). <BR><BR>This exuberant one man play, =
based on the=20
life and writings of the visionary thinker-inventor-philosopher, =
Buckminster=20
Fuller, affectionately known as &#338;Bucky,=B9 "is startlingly funny, =
intellectually=20
stimulating and genuinely moving" (San Francisco Examiner). =
<BR><BR><FONT=20
size=3D5>-------------------------------------------<BR>2- for-1=20
Special<BR></FONT>The producers of the play, Foghouse.com, are offering =
to our=20
e-list a special this week: &nbsp;2 tickets for the price of =
1.<BR><BR>That=B9s=20
for this week only: Wednesday through Sunday (Dec. 6 &shy; Dec. 10).=20
<BR><BR>Show times are Wednesday through Saturday at 8 p.m. <BR>and =
Saturday and=20
Sunday 3 p.m.<BR><BR>To take advantage of this opportunity call the box =
office=20
at 415/ 392-4400 or get your tickets at the window and mention the Bucky =

2-for-1. This special is not available through online ticket=20
purchases.<BR><BR><FONT=20
size=3D5>-------------------------------------------<BR></FONT></FONT><FO=
NT=20
size=3D6><FONT face=3DArial><B>Bucky Up Close<BR></B></FONT></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial>
<H1><BR></H1></FONT><FONT face=3DGeneva><B>A Free Post Play Discussion=20
Series<BR></B>Sponsored by the Buckminster Fuller Institute in =
association with=20
the play, <BR><I>"R. Buckminster Fuller: The History (and Mystery) of =
the=20
Universe." <BR><BR></I><FONT size=3D4>Join us as special guests recount =
their=20
unique, <BR>personal experiences with Buckminster =
Fuller.<BR><BR></FONT>When:=20
Sundays,December 10 and 17 and Saturday, December 23.<BR>Time: =
<U>Starting about=20
5:30 p.m</U>., for an hour, following the 3 p.m. matinees <BR>Where: =
George=20
Coates Performance Works, 110 McAllister, (Civic Center) San =
Francisco<BR><BR>
<H3>Sunday, December 10<BR></H3><U>D.W. Jacobs (Writer/Director of=20
HISTORY/MYSTERY)<BR></U>D. W. Jacobs co-founded San Diego Repertory =
Theatre in=20
1976, and served as its Artistic Director until 1997. He now works as a=20
free-lance writer, director, actor and teacher.<BR><BR><U>Ron Campbell =
(Performs=20
"Bucky" in HISTORY/MYSTERY)<BR></U>Ron Campbell has received the London =
Fringe=20
One-man Show of the Year Award and the Los Angeles Drama Critics Circle =
Award=20
for his performance in <I>The Thousandth Night</I>. Ron has performed in =
25=20
Shakespeare productions and has appeared in many television =
shows.<BR><BR><BR>
<H3>Sunday, December 17<BR></H3><U>Jaime Snyder (Media producer and =
Bucky's=20
grandson)<BR></U>He is a composer, producer, director, and co-founder of =
the=20
Buckminster Fuller Institute. Jaime traveled extensively with Bucky on =
his=20
lecture tours during the last years of his life.<BR><BR><U>Ruth Asawa =
(San=20
Francisco artist and friend of Bucky's)<BR></U>Ruth Asawa=B9s sculpture =
and=20
fountains are prominent in public gardens and plazas around the country. =
Her=20
work has been featured in solo exhibitions by more than a dozen museums. =
She=20
worked with Buckminster Fuller and studied art at Black Mountain College =
in=20
North Carolina along side Merce Cunningham and John Cage.<BR><BR><BR>
<H3>Saturday, December 23<BR></H3><U>Allegra Fuller Snyder (Dance =
ethnologist=20
and Bucky's daughter)<BR></U>She is Professor Emerita and former Chair =
of UCLA=20
Department of Dance, founding Coordinator of the World Arts and Cultures =

Program, and co-founder of the Buckminster Fuller =
Institute.<BR><BR><U>Robert=20
Snyder (Academy Award winning filmmaker and Bucky =
documentarian)<BR></U>Robert=20
Snyder has produced and directed numerous films including biographies on =
Pablo=20
Casals, Henry Miller, Buckminster Fuller and others. Many of his films =
have won=20
critical acclaim and international film awards, from the CINE Golden =
Eagle to=20
the Oscar.<BR><BR>For more info about the Discussion Series contact the=20
Buckminster Fuller Institute at 707-824-2242<BR></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial><BR></FONT><FONT size=3D5><FONT=20
face=3DGeneva>-------------------------------------------<BR></FONT></FON=
T><FONT=20
face=3DGeneva>The Buckminster Fuller Institute (BFI), a 501 (c)(3) =
nonprofit=20
organization, is a diverse group of individuals committed to a =
successful and=20
sustainable future for 100% of humanity. Founded in 1983 and inspired by =
the=20
design science principles pioneered by the late Buckminster Fuller, BFI =
serves=20
as an information resource to students, educators, authors, designers =
and=20
concerned citizens working to advance humanity's option for=20
success.<BR><BR>Buckminster Fuller Institute<BR>111 N. Main=20
Street<BR>Sebastopol, California 95472 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>707-824-2242=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;707-824-2243 fax<BR><FONT=20
color=3D#000000><U>info@bfi.org</U></FONT>=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<FONT=20
color=3D#000000><U>http://www.bfi.org<BR><BR></U></FONT><I>Working to =
Advance=20
Humanity's Option for Success<BR></I><FONT=20
size=3D5>-------------------------------------------<BR></FONT>If you =
would like=20
to be removed from this e-mail list please hit reply and simply type =
"Remove" in=20
the body of your e-mail.<BR><BR>If you have any suggestions for future =
e-mail=20
announcements please contact us at <FONT=20
color=3D#000000><U>info@bfi.org</U></FONT>.<BR></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Dec 2000 00:25:17 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Christmas Card
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Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=20

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<DIV><BR><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Joe S Moore:=20
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------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C05FE4.2C9C5900--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:05:30 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: triangles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            07-DEC-2000  8:05
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 if you were more of a *gourmond*,
 you'd have a recipe for "BS" that'd work for the holidays!
    seriously, Kuromiya may have made the whole thing "up,"
 himself, as he saw fit; c'est une possibilitee mirabile, ou mystaquelle
 -- ou pour un memorial posthume?

 I didn't have time to look at it, much, but the URL that someone sent
 seemed to have to do with this.  when some of us from BFI were
 at Mandelbrot's dull talk at UCLA, I worked-out a method
 of dualizing "indefinitely," starting with any of the 3 trigonal shapes
 (or their duals), the regular ones (tetragon, hexagon, dodecagon,
 counting the vertices (or tetragon, octagon, icosagon)).
    by dualizing on the midsphere (that touching the edges),
 thus "precessing" the edges by 90 degrees to create the dual,
 one possesses the "hull" of a spheric that is composed
 of tetragona, mostly; then, do it again, as many times
 as needed.  however, in practice, although
 *drawing* such a series is doable, in general the process breaks-down
 as a matter of inversion-in-the-sphere (the dualization,
 which is described in _Connections_ by Kappraf), but
 it may be possible to adjust the edges so that
 they really *will* touch the sphere.  (or,
 it may just be a matter of dyspensing with much of any uniform element,
 wether struts or not, or considering some less rigid modularity; eh ?-)

 can anyone describe the process in that page?

 (sorry, about using "tetragona" for flat, 4-sided things, there,
 aka "topo maps;" per Bucky,
 if it's a "degenerated" such spatial figure of tetragon (tetrahedron),
 it should be so-stated -- "this thing is really flat" !-)
 [on the other hand, if it just doesn't work,
 we are left with the dictum that "triangles (and
 quadrilaterals are minimally tetrahedra of minimal heighth (or
 of minimal bialtitude);" in terms of quads, that is,
 they are always (some how) *skew* -- see Altshiller-Court's theorem,
 that the dystinction between tetrahedra and skew quadrilaterals is one
 of emphasis, or removing 2 opposite edges from the figure !-]

 --The New World Order!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Dec 2000 16:59:12 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <200012071605.eB7G5UA22178@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

At 08:05 AM 12/07/2000 -0800, you wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings            07-DEC-2000  8:05
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> if you were more of a *gourmond*,
> you'd have a recipe for "BS" that'd work for the holidays!
>    seriously, Kuromiya may have made the whole thing "up,"
> himself, as he saw fit; c'est une possibilitee mirabile, ou mystaquelle
> -- ou pour un memorial posthume?

What "thing"?  I knew Kiyoshi, and about his work on=20
'Cosmography'. =20

Superficially, it sounds like you're alleging something,
but on closer inspection, you're not saying anything at=20
all -- just the usual word salad.

Something about duals and duality that Bucky failed to=20
note?  Maybe, if you misread 'Synergetics' as trying to=20
be some kind of encylopedic survey of known geometry.=20
But that'd be a foolish reading indeed.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:40:05 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: triangles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            07-DEC-2000 10:40
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 the Polyvertexion (tm) thing, which is just awful!...  maybe,
 no-one knows but Fuller and his adjuvant, so it's hard t'say.
    it certainly recommends itself to be unconfused
 with the nomeclature that was heretofore reserved for flat shapes,
 though.  but as a matter of preference (and adherence to the idea that
 it's better to start with the "solid" shapes, and work back
 to the flat stuff) or pedagogy, wouldn't it be better
 to stick with the real "thing," herein?
    per dualization, the Snyder-Fuller Law is probably really important,
 whether it is part of any other theorem (although as I recall,
 it's a first-power relation, and the inversion-in-sphere is second-power);
 what was it, again?
    those are the two things that I recall from perusing at BFI (LA),
 other than some nice recapitulation from _Nine Chains_
 on E=mcc and Mrs. Murphy's Horse ... or was it, Mrs. O'Leary's Cow,
 or Timothy Leary's Head?
    I don't know if there was any eplicit mention of duality, though,
 in it, at all; is there?

 thus quoth:
  Something about duals and duality that Bucky failed to
  note?  Maybe, if you misread 'Synergetics' as trying to
  be some kind of encylopedic survey of known geometry.

 --The New World Order!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 7 Dec 2000 11:12:18 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: triangles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            07-DEC-2000 11:12
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 hey, I really think that Bucky finally got it -- or they both did!

 17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87,300 bytes)
 18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140,338 bytes)
 19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67,559 bytes)
 20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26,295 bytes)
 21 -- OMAHA (25,969 bytes)
 22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112,000)
 23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168,757 bytes)
 24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255,215 bytes)
 25 -- THYROID STORM (138,727 bytes)
 http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:04:11 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <200012071840.eB7Ie5O23645@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

At 10:40 AM 12/07/2000 -0800, you wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings            07-DEC-2000 10:40
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> the Polyvertexion (tm) thing, which is just awful!...  maybe,
> no-one knows but Fuller and his adjuvant, so it's hard t'say.

Knows what?  This is content-free.  Polyvertexion thing
isn't new in Cosmography.  I don't use it much.

>    per dualization, the Snyder-Fuller Law is probably really important,
> whether it is part of any other theorem (although as I recall,
> it's a first-power relation, and the inversion-in-sphere is second-power);
> what was it, again?

Nevermind.

>    I don't know if there was any eplicit mention of duality, though,
> in it, at all; is there?
>

Where?  Actually, I don't need to know.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Dec 2000 08:04:32 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <200012071912.eB7JCIU23856@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

At 11:12 AM 12/07/2000 -0800, you wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings            07-DEC-2000 11:12
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> hey, I really think that Bucky finally got it -- or they both did!
>

Got what?

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Dec 2000 12:34:09 -0800
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      FW: The most profound of all universe mysteries
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The infinity of the perfection of God is such that it eternally
constitutes him mystery. And the greatest of all the unfathomable
mysteries of God is the phenomenon of the divine indwelling of
mortal minds. The manner in which the Universal Father sojourns
with the creatures of time is the most profound of all universe
mysteries; the divine presence in the mind of man is the mystery
of mysteries.    (Paper 1 Sec:4 Par:1 -- The Urantia Papers)

For the full context of this quote please go to:
http://www.ubook.org/upapers/ubpaper001.html#P001_4_1
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Date:         Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:47:02 -0500
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Geodesic sphere algorithm
Comments: To: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>

On , Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:

>The way I come at geodesic spheres is through the Descarte's
>discovery, elaborated upon in Synergetics, that a simple
>concave/convex polyhedron of n vertices has 720 degrees all
>told, summing the angles converging at those vertices, than
>360*n.  In other words, the difference between a network with
>no curvature, and one which connects around to itself to
>provide a concave inside and concave outside, is 720.  Bucky
>was pleased to identify the tetrahedron, a 720 degree construct,
>with this difference.  In other words, subtract a tetrahedron's
>worth of degrees from a flat surface, and get... a tetrahedron.
>Or a cube.  Or an octahedron.  Shape in general.  Somethingness
>is begotten by zero spitting out a negative and positive
>tetrahedron.  In pure principle, they intercancel, but in
>time-worn Universe, we have giraffes.
>
>OK, now moving to geodesic spheres, we think of a super high
>frequency icosasphere.  Like we're standing on one the size of
>the earth.  What we see are triangles arranged in hexagons,
>stretching to the horizon.  We see a mosaic of triangular tiles.
>We're told that in twelve and only twelve places on the surface
>of our earth, 5 triangular tiles surround a vertex, instead of
>6.  We might spend our whole lives searching for a such a
>pentagonal convergence.  The other 11 will be equally spaced,
>around the surface of the earth, from the first we find, on
>the plan of a spherical icosahedron.
>
>The important thing to remember is that each triangle is locally
>flat.  At each vertex of the gazillion vertices on this earth-sized
>mosaic of 1 inch triangles, 6 triangles meet (except in 12 sacred
>spots, as mentioned).  To you and I, the tiling seems flat.  Detecting
>curvature is difficult, given our scale relative to the earth.  But
>the way this geodesic sphere was constructed was by subtracting
>exactly the same fraction of a degree from each vertex.  So whereas
>it *appears* that each vertex is surrounded by 6 equilateral triangles,
>giving 360 degrees, in actual fact the triangles are ever so slightly
>non-equilateral, and each vertex is surrounded by more like 359.9999999
>degrees.  The sacred 12 are likewise surrounded by 359.9999999 degrees.
>The missing .0000001 degree from each vertex contributes to the making
>of a tetrahedron of 720 degrees, erected somewhere on our earth to
>symbolize its inverse.
>
>So this brings me to the algorithm (conceptual only):  I give you
>a very large number.  Not just any number.  It has to be the number
>of vertices in a super high frequency icosanet.  Actually, Fuller
>gives us a formula:  10F*F+2.  So I give you F, lets say.  Your job
>(you being the algorithm) is to create a geodesic sphere with the
>goal of distributing the "missing" 720 degees among all vertices
>equally.  In other words, every vertex should be surrounded by
>360-k degrees where n*k=720 and n is the number of vertices given
>by 10*F*F+2.  What you have to play with is the lengths of the
>spokes coming out from each vertex.  Defining the 5 spokes from a
>sacred spot (one of 12) as unity (arbitrary), every other spoke
>in the scheme will be expressed relative to 1 (e.g. 1.00003234).
>
>Does this algorithm give us the closest thing to the ideal geodesic
>sphere we can imagine?  Are the stipulations constraining enough
>to provide a true numerical recipe.  How many different, unique
>edge lengths will such an algorithm generate?
>
>A much lower frequency earth-net (not inch triangles, but kilometer ones,
>say), begins to show how we can transfer the real earth's bumpiness
>to scaled triangles on a corresponding tiny sphere (in the palm of my
>hand).  If the edges between all the triangles in our super high
>frequency geosphere are hinges, and if we cut along certain edges
>to create the opening sinuses, will the flat triangles open up to
>lie flat, giving the Dymaxion Map?  They ought to.
>
>------------------------------------------------
>Kirby T. Urner             pdx4d@teleport.com
>4D Solutions               (teleport.com is a public access node)
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Date:         Fri, 8 Dec 2000 06:35:47 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: triangles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            08-DEC-2000  6:35
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I was unaware that the nasty -vertexion formalism was used
 (published) prior to _Cosmography_, but the only use for it,
 comes from teh arbitrary dystinction that the Greeks made,
 in going from drawn (flat) shapes to constructed (folded,
 as with sinuses) -- although it may'be been the other way around,
 since the book-ordering of Euclid is not essential; eh?
    that is why I've proposed the use of "tetragon" as equivalent
 to tetrahedron, and so forth, not without justification
 from Bucky Opus #0 (_S_ .-)

 maybe I shouldn't say that, as the Greek polygon is a "system"
 that closes upon itself "within" the peice of paper (or Flatland,
 or Sphereland, or Saddleland or what ever),
 just as the polyhdron does that, for-real-in-full-spatiallity!
    I think, now, the Snyder-Fuller Theorem may have its place
 in the study of curvature, after all, a.k.a "K," I think,
 as the inverse of "r" for radius.

 hye, maybe we could use polyvertexion (or
 vertexium, to give it a fuller Latin flavor,
 of studying Greek science from between your legs
 -- just kidding!) for the flat ones.

 --The Duke of Oil!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm
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Date:         Fri, 8 Dec 2000 07:24:33 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change: Education/ Xmas/New Year

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            08-DEC-2000  7:24
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Bucky Fuller had a dictum, Dare to be naieve, but
 this is ridiculous; do you really, truly believe that
 "the industry" (as centralized as it is) is going
 to fight the ultimate proposal for metering its output,
 known as Gore's participation in the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto
 (sic) ??
    please note that Gore had shilled the Elk Hills
 Naval Petoleum Reserve -- the Louisiana sister
 to the infamous Teapot Dome of Pennsylvania -- of sweet oil
 to Occidental, for about a dime on the dollar,
 with a huge bounty of gas that they're going to burn,
 to generate "e" for the deregulated Califorina market.
    do you think Dick Cheney and Haliburton are against Kyoto,
 really, when Shrub has stated that we ought to look further
 into "global" (sic) warming?

 that's just sic!

 thus quoth:
  Given its Oklahoma background it really is surprising that it helped fund
 the
  Video "Rising Waters" which certainly is not favorable to the fossil fuel

   17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87,300 bytes)
   18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140,338 bytes)
   19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67,559 bytes)
   20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26,295 bytes)
   21 -- OMAHA (25,969 bytes)
   22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112,000)
   23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168,757 bytes)
   24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255,215 bytes)
   25 -- THYROID STORM (138,727 bytes)
   http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 8 Dec 2000 15:02:55 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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<IDIOSYNCRATIC>

>    that is why I've proposed the use of "tetragon" as equivalent
> to tetrahedron, and so forth, not without justification
> from Bucky Opus #0 (_S_ .-)

Deceptive, confusing, as 'gon' is from Greek for 'knee' as
in 'a-gony' (knee-pain), of course related to 'angle'
(crook of the knee).  Crook: 2 : a part of something that
is hook-shaped, curved, or bent e.g. 'sick and twisted' [KU]

But tetrahedron has 3 crooks per face x 4 = 12 crooks i.e.
gons.  So tetrahedron is 12-gon, if you like, though of
course that's no good 'cuz 12-gon in 2D is a 12-sided
affair (a.k.a. dodecagon, duh).

> maybe I shouldn't say that, as the Greek polygon is a "system"
> that closes upon itself "within" the peice of paper (or Flatland,
> or Sphereland, or Saddleland or what ever),

No, because flatland is fiction.  You/observer is looking at
flatland, so environmental otherness is 4d/tetrahedral, is
synergetics-speak for the Whole.  System is Primitive and
flatland is only pseudoly so (because not Real/Royal in the
Divine sense of A Priori (Kantianly ipso facto defacto)).

> just as the polyhdron does that, for-real-in-full-spatiallity!
>    I think, now, the Snyder-Fuller Theorem may have its place
> in the study of curvature, after all, a.k.a "K," I think,
> as the inverse of "r" for radius.

Burden of proof on you, say I.

> hye, maybe we could use polyvertexion (or
> vertexium, to give it a fuller Latin flavor,
> of studying Greek science from between your legs
> -- just kidding!) for the flat ones.

The 'polyvertexion' genisus is obviously 'consideration'
meaning 'starscape' or 'constellation' (i.e. points/stars
reign supreme, with relationships howsoever your mythos
dictates, when projecting archetypes).

'Polyvertexion' is a statement of the primacy of empirical
events a.k.a. Experiences.  How you wire them up is up to
U(niverse).  In your case, oddly, crookedly, I'd say
(Nixionians take note).  But more-so-me, I'm (en)able(d)
to generate NewSys() ab initio, vermacht?

</IDIOSYNCRATIC>

Kirby
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Date:         Sat, 9 Dec 2000 10:31:14 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> At 10:40 AM 12/07/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> ><<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings
>  07-DEC-2000 10:40
> >                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
> >
> > the Polyvertexion (tm) thing, which is just
> awful!...  maybe,
> > no-one knows but Fuller and his adjuvant, so it's
> hard t'say.
>
> Knows what?  This is content-free.  Polyvertexion
> thing
> isn't new in Cosmography.  I don't use it much.
>
> >    per dualization, the Snyder-Fuller Law is
> probably really important,
> > whether it is part of any other theorem (although
> as I recall,
> > it's a first-power relation, and the
> inversion-in-sphere is second-power);
> > what was it, again?
>
> Nevermind.
>
> >    I don't know if there was any eplicit mention
> of duality, though,
> > in it, at all; is there?
> >
>
> Where?  Actually, I don't need to know.
>
> Kirby

What is the problem with naming structures by their
number of vertices?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 9 Dec 2000 05:48:59 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: triangles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            09-DEC-2000  5:48
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 first of all, I do not *recall* anything
 about the Snyder-Fuller theorem, other than that "reciprocal" nature
 of it, as I only saw it once in the book at BFI
 (also my last glimpse of the "spheres-into-spaces-into-spheres" model !-)
    your "friction" was dryly amusing, if irrelevent;
 what was the derivation of "vertex" -- star?
    the reference of -gon is to the angle, and
 the vertex as a whole, either on the fakey-planar system (or
 simply diagrammatical, projectional or cross-sectional, or
 one-eyed-visual) or on the "solid" (or empty) one.  now,
 it may be that the dihedral angles are of more import
 for all of the basic shapes, but the focus upon the "solid angles"
 of the vertices, as contrasted with the sum of surficial angles
 *at* the vertices (viz Descartes' theroem that you went through),
 is every bit as valid as concentrating on the (say) area
 of the facets (or "windows," in Bucky's strut-centered Universe .-)

 "stellation"is already taken;
 if the greek is *aster*, how about polyasterisks?...
 I do like the focus upon sightings of Ancient Astronomers,
 for sure!...  polysider, too close to "side?"

 thus quoth:
  >    I think, now, the Snyder-Fuller Theorem may have its place
  > in the study of curvature, after all, a.k.a "K," I think,
  > as the inverse of "r" for radius.

  Burden of proof on you, say I.

 I haven't changed my mind, on that deffinition (but
 I had to molt my skull .-)

 --The 3 Phases of Exploitation:
 Bore/Gush/Nadir "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm
 http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents, below)
   17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
   18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
   19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
   20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
   21 -- OMAHA (25K)
   22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
   23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
   24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
   25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:23:37 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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>What is the problem with naming structures by their
>number of vertices?
>

Nothing wrong, of course, except any naming system
which focuses only on V,E or F hasn't enough info
to uniquely specify.  As V+F=E+2 you can see that
pinning down V still gives F and E a lot of slack.
Example: icosahedron and cuboctahedron both have
12 vertices.

Kirby
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Date:         Sun, 10 Dec 2000 08:42:23 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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> what was the derivation of "vertex" -- star?

I doubt it, but for Fuller that's the mostly-empty-space
background context for polysys objects.  A key to
grokking synergetics is that vertex and event go
together, such that Bucky even writes eVent sometimes,
to capitalize on both Vertexial and ConVergent.

He also liked the X in verteX -- suggesting a crossing.
He didn't like the plural "vertices" especially and
resolved to stick with vertexes.

>    the reference of -gon is to the angle, and
> the vertex as a whole, either on the fakey-planar system (or
> simply diagrammatical, projectional or cross-sectional, or
> one-eyed-visual) or on the "solid" (or empty) one.  now,

You can say so of course, but my own sense is "gon" is
tainted with all the hyperlinks to flatlander sections i.e.
to "polygons".  Retraining us to see a "gon" as a multi-
faceted bowl even adds more to the word "angle" than
we're used to ("solid angle" requires that qualifier).

>From building construction, it's really what we call
a "corner" that you're talking about -- where several
walls my come to a point (even more than 3).  The
tetrahedron (or 4-gon in Brianspeak) is the minimum
room.

> it may be that the dihedral angles are of more import
> for all of the basic shapes, but the focus upon the "solid angles"
> of the vertices, as contrasted with the sum of surficial angles
> *at* the vertices (viz Descartes' theroem that you went through),
> is every bit as valid as concentrating on the (say) area
> of the facets (or "windows," in Bucky's strut-centered Universe .-)

And lets not forget to focus on the edges -- no one has
mentioned that yet.  But Bucky's poet-friend Gene Fowler
has poured out a lot of words on that option, wherein the
tetrahedron is a 6sys.  For more on this naming game:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/syn_mind.html -- worth a
read (all iii parts).

> "stellation"is already taken;
> if the greek is *aster*, how about polyasterisks?...
> I do like the focus upon sightings of Ancient Astronomers,
> for sure!...  polysider, too close to "side?"
>

My own take is you can alter the aesthetic parameters w/o
necessarily tweaking the basic code.  Leave it alone, is
my strategy -- polyhedra are fine, but throw in alternatives
to keep the reflex-conditioning from turning to rigor
mortis. Geometers have purely numeric labeling games as
you well know, with more info than just V,F or E-counts,
the better to more uniquely specify.

You'll find that Buckynauts are more prone to visualize a
polyhedron as a wireframe, owing to all the implicit graph
theory in synergetics, i.e. polys as networks of relationships
between eVents scattered through time (the edges are the
hyperlinks -- think of polyhedra as buried in the Web with
pages for nodes, and defined by the webmasters -- by
webweavers like Clive Barker for example).

Related reading:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/system.html

Kirby
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Date:         Sun, 10 Dec 2000 12:07:00 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      re synergetics in retrospect
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In synergetics, the polyhedra represent a graph theory approach
to the storage/retrieval of nodes, with edges being hyperlinks.
Bucky's "always on a tangent" style of thinking out loud
anticipates web browsing of the non-linear kind, with the
confidance that generalized principles do a better job of
connecting the dots than any only-brain-driven data processing.

So rest assured, says our geometry of thinking explorer, you'll
eventually get around to a lot of the same trees coming from
different directions, thereby gradually coming to appreciate
the lay of the land, the forest-as-system -- if, that is, you
learn to trust your intuition.  That's synergetics in a nutshell.

The polyhedra play a somewhat ornamental role, vis-a-vis this
background context of events linked in pure principle, and it's
easy to get stuck at this static-literal level, turning
synergetics into some treatise on geometry or engineering per
se, thereby ignoring the psychology of it all.

But were that the depth of synergetics, you can be sure it wouldn't
have proved so gravitationally attractive to some of the bigger
minds that surfed Bucky for a time, people such as Hugh Kenner
('The Pound Era'), a James Joyce scholar, or Norman O. Brown, a
literary critic influenced by Nietzsche and Freud ('Love's Body').

You needed to already be doing your own thinking to really groove
on the implicit circularity in Bucky's threads.  For example,
'I Seem to Be a Verb' was about demonstrating a kind of high
bandwidth thinking, with a central strand making a full circle,
tying it all together (flip the book over, and read it the other
direction -- a strategy also employed by Ted Nelson in his cult
classic 'Computer Lib/Dream Machines').

N.O. Brown was into Vico (e.g. 'Closing Time') as well as Joyce,
and 'Finnegans Wake' begins and ends with 'riverrun' (i.e. ends
with "the" which connects to the starting sentence).  It's the
eternal return which connects these works thematically, and
Bucky's discipline was to replace circles with volumes, things
that are flat with things that are round.  Hence the polyhedra.

In sum, Bucky's "connecting around in all circumferential
directions" was nothing new in scholarship -- hypertext is
ancient -- but his somewhat austere and starkly geometric
language was refreshingly encouraging of exploration and endless
reinterpretation, if only the humanities-trained would overcome
their initial prejudice and cross that C.P. Snow bridge between
the cultures.  Some did, but most gave up and got cynical.
Today, students are mostly ignorant about Bucky, not having
teachers who could find a niche for him in their thinking.

For further reading:

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/jjoyce.htm
http://www.connix.com/~gapinton/
http://members.nbci.com/urner/working2.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kiyoshi.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/system.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 10 Dec 2000 18:50:06 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      G L O B E W O R K S
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
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Large (10', 6 frequency icosa) geodesic dome Earth globes by Pat Chipman:

 http://home.austin.rr.com/globeworks/

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:09:04 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> >What is the problem with naming structures by their
> >number of vertices?
> >
>
> Nothing wrong, of course, except any naming system
> which focuses only on V,E or F hasn't enough info
> to uniquely specify.  As V+F=E+2 you can see that
> pinning down V still gives F and E a lot of slack.
> Example: icosahedron and cuboctahedron both have
> 12 vertices.
>
> Kirby

What about omni-triangulated structures? Do we run
into trouble there?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:31:47 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Dome-Generating Software
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"The Domenator" by Philippe Gibone:

"With a large number base designs, slope options, and window styles, the
Domenator can create thousands of different domes for your POV scenes."

 http://home.netcom.com/~big_pig/povdome/

----------
"Dome" by Rick Bono:

"DOME is a freeware DOS utility I am developing for generating the
coordinates of a geodesic dome or sphere."

http://www.cris.com/~rjbono/html/fdomes.html

----------
Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:45:08 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      volume
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The volume of a spherical 4-v (short for tetrahedron,
4-vertexion, 4-gon, 6-HL(hyperlink)), is two, right?
The volume of a 120-v is pretty close to 120, isn't
it?
And the volume of a spherical 120-v is 121, yes?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 07:50:10 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      graph
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Joe- Have you graphed or otherwise kept track of the
Bucky related traffic on your site, VBFI? I know Bucky
kept track of everything in the media about him. I am
curious if there are any updated indicators of
Fuller's impact. Thanks.

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:08:19 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      HVDC and Renewable Energy
Comments: cc: "Meisen, Peter" <peter@geni.org>
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Recent High Voltage Direct Current (HVDC) technology advances make linking
renewable energy sources to national electrical grids more practical:


http://www.abb.com/global/abbzh/abbzh260.nsf!OpenDatabase&db=/global/ABBZH/A
BBZH263.nsf&v=A&e=us&c=11938A2CC7D581A4002567B400370F76

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:15:41 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
In-Reply-To:  <20001211154508.16572.qmail@web4406.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 07:45 AM 12/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>The volume of a spherical 4-v (short for tetrahedron,
>4-vertexion, 4-gon, 6-HL(hyperlink)), is two, right?
>The volume of a 120-v is pretty close to 120, isn't
>it?
>And the volume of a spherical 120-v is 121, yes?
>

The volume of any shape goes up as a 3rd power rate
of the increase in its linear scale.  Going from
4-v to 120-v would normally be considered a 30-fold
increase in linear size, meaning the corresponding
volume would go up 27,000 times.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:13:35 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Brian Hutchings
<r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings
> 09-DEC-2000  5:48
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  first of all, I do not *recall* anything
>  about the Snyder-Fuller theorem, other than that
> "reciprocal" nature
>  of it, as I only saw it once in the book at BFI
>

What is the gist of this theorem?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:13:42 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: graph
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Dick,

Yes, I subscribe to a free tracking service.  I'm getting about 60 hits/day.
See
http://vwr1.hitbox.com/HitboxUI?p=1&acct=WQ590817CKNF&pd=3&y=2000&m=12&t=210
&cat=0&hp=0

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Fischbeck" <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 7:50 AM
Subject: graph


> Joe- Have you graphed or otherwise kept track of the
> Bucky related traffic on your site, VBFI? I know Bucky
> kept track of everything in the media about him. I am
> curious if there are any updated indicators of
> Fuller's impact. Thanks.
>
> Dick
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:22:44 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      bikes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I was thinking about all the sporting technologies of
the last twenty years, like roller blades, or wind
surfing. Has anyone heard of the sail-bike? I have not
but I bet it would be fun. It could be a small sail
toward the stern of the bike. Or it could be a cowling
in the shape if a sail.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:26:16 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <20001211150904.1113.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:09 AM 12/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
>> >What is the problem with naming structures by their
>> >number of vertices?
>> >
>>
>> Nothing wrong, of course, except any naming system
>> which focuses only on V,E or F hasn't enough info
>> to uniquely specify.  As V+F=E+2 you can see that
>> pinning down V still gives F and E a lot of slack.
>> Example: icosahedron and cuboctahedron both have
>> 12 vertices.
>>
>> Kirby
>
>What about omni-triangulated structures? Do we run
>into trouble there?
>

Yes.  A growing tetrahelix of face-bonded tetrahedra
can have as many vertices as you like, starting with
4, and adding 1 with each new tetrahedron.  So it'll
be able to match the vertex count of any other omni-
triangulated poly you want to suggest.

Kirby

Note: in synergetics, Fuller defines this notion of
"system" which tends to cover roundish polys with
an even number of vertices, with more complex systems
being joined versions of these.  Only the simple
systems (the ones with polar pairs of vertices
arrayed about a common center) have a surface-angle
total evenly divisible by 720 as per Synergetics
224.60-224.70.  For example, two face-bonded tets
have surface angles of 6*180, which is not evenly
divisible by 720 (=4*180).
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:30:48 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> At 07:45 AM 12/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >The volume of a spherical 4-v (short for
> tetrahedron,
> >4-vertexion, 4-gon, 6-HL(hyperlink)), is two,
> right?
> >The volume of a 120-v is pretty close to 120, isn't
> >it?
> >And the volume of a spherical 120-v is 121, yes?
> >
>
> The volume of any shape goes up as a 3rd power rate
> of the increase in its linear scale.  Going from
> 4-v to 120-v would normally be considered a 30-fold
> increase in linear size, meaning the corresponding
> volume would go up 27,000 times.
>
> Kirby

Of course, what was I thinking. However, don't you
mean in this case we are not talking about a linear
increase, but a surface increase. Then, the volumetric
increase would be 900 times?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:33:59 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> At 07:45 AM 12/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >The volume of a spherical 4-v (short for
> tetrahedron,
> >4-vertexion, 4-gon, 6-HL(hyperlink)), is two,
> right?
> >The volume of a 120-v is pretty close to 120, isn't
> >it?
> >And the volume of a spherical 120-v is 121, yes?

What I meant is(not what I said) that the spherical
volume of a structure is one unit volume more that its
non-spherical form.

> The volume of any shape goes up as a 3rd power rate
> of the increase in its linear scale.  Going from
> 4-v to 120-v would normally be considered a 30-fold
> increase in linear size, meaning the corresponding
> volume would go up 27,000 times.
>
> Kirby

Of course, what was I thinking. However, don't you
mean in this case we are not talking about a linear
increase, but a surface increase. Then, the volumetric
increase would be 900 times?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 08:37:52 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: graph
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Very cool. Do you have records of years past?
--- Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM> wrote:
> Dick,
>
> Yes, I subscribe to a free tracking service.  I'm
> getting about 60 hits/day.
> See
>
http://vwr1.hitbox.com/HitboxUI?p=1&acct=WQ590817CKNF&pd=3&y=2000&m=12&t=210
> &cat=0&hp=0
>
> Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
> Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute:
> http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dick Fischbeck" <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
> To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 7:50 AM
> Subject: graph
>
>
> > Joe- Have you graphed or otherwise kept track of
> the
> > Bucky related traffic on your site, VBFI? I know
> Bucky
> > kept track of everything in the media about him. I
> am
> > curious if there are any updated indicators of
> > Fuller's impact. Thanks.
> >
> > Dick
> >
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:25:20 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
In-Reply-To:  <20001211163048.401.qmail@web4405.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Of course, what was I thinking. However, don't you
>mean in this case we are not talking about a linear
>increase, but a surface increase. Then, the volumetric
>increase would be 900 times?
>

Frequency is a linear measure as usually used.
A 4-v tetrahedron has double the linear dimensions
of a 2-v tetrahedron.  Surface area (for any shape)
goes up as a 2nd power, volume as a 3rd power, so
you have the following table:

         Area      Volume
   2-v     a          v
   4-v    4a         8v
   6-v    9a        27v
   ...

Going from 4-v to 120-v is a 30-fold increase in
linear distance, so surface area goes up by a
factor of 30x30 (=900) and volume by 30x30x30
(=27000).

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 09:27:54 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
In-Reply-To:  <20001211163359.24891.qmail@web4404.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>What I meant is(not what I said) that the spherical
>volume of a structure is one unit volume more that its
>non-spherical form.
>

That's not a safe generalization.  A very high frequency
omnitriangulated geosphere is very close to having the
volume of the "perfect" sphere (which you might define
as an even higher frequency geosphere).

Some shapes are more spherical than others, so the volume
difference is not some given by some fixed factor for
all shapes.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 04:35:59 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: triangles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            11-DEC-2000  4:35
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 oops; the DescartoBucky tetrahedral "deficit" of superfacial angles
 applies to *all* of the simple polyhedra (with no donut-holes .-)
    as well, the accounting of vertices has no bearing *in general*
 on the volume, til the shape is specified, at the least -- although
 you'll find an interesting volumetric relation
 between teh sphere and the octahedron (hexagon).
    when I learn the connecting-form and plural

 forms for "polyaster" (what's "tetra-asters" e.g.),
 I'll probably use that, for a while.


 the moral of the story is,
 Don't eat the donu-holes, unless you want more
 than one tetragon to dysappear!
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 11:46:09 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: graph
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dick,

If I remember right, I got on the Internet about 9-94 with a text-only
browser.  I think it was about 2 years or so later that I set up my first
web pages.  I started collecting stats from about 6-97.  In that month I had
2.5 hits/day--and thought I was doing great!

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Fischbeck" <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2000 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: graph


> Very cool. Do you have records of years past?
> --- Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM> wrote:
> > Dick,
> >
> > Yes, I subscribe to a free tracking service.  I'm
> > getting about 60 hits/day.
> > See
> >
>
http://vwr1.hitbox.com/HitboxUI?p=1&acct=WQ590817CKNF&pd=3&y=2000&m=12&t=210
> > &cat=0&hp=0
> >
> > Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
> > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute:
> > http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
> >
(snip)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:16:07 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <200012111235.eBBCZxt07426@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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At 04:35 AM 12/11/2000 -0800, Brian Hutchings wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings            11-DEC-2000  4:35
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> oops; the DescartoBucky tetrahedral "deficit" of superfacial angles
> applies to *all* of the simple polyhedra (with no donut-holes .-)

That's not what I was talking about.  "Evenly divisible by
720" is not the same as Descartes' angular deficit.  I already
provided the counter example (for which the Descartes thing
nevertheless holds true).

But if the number of vertices is even, and the poly is omni-
triangulated, then N:F:E =3D 1:2:3 where N=3DV-2.  So N is even,
therefore F is factorable by 4, ergo the surface angles total
is evenly divisible by 720 (=3D4 triangles).  Again, this is=20
not the same as Descartes' Deficit.

>    as well, the accounting of vertices has no bearing *in general*
> on the volume, til the shape is specified, at the least -- although
> you'll find an interesting volumetric relation
> between teh sphere and the octahedron (hexagon).

Calling the octahedron a hexagon I think well-illustrates=20
the impracticality of your nomenclature ("hexagon" is
already taken).

> the moral of the story is,
> Don't eat the donu-holes, unless you want more
> than one tetragon to dysappear!
>

Your bringing donut holes into it is irrelevant given a=20
true a Buckynaut is apt to view polyhedra more as wireframes=20
(a central theme in this thread) -- so the "hole through=20
a solid" imagery sounds rather dated -- have to define=20
the V+F=3DE+2 restriction using different language (it's=20
also transcended with vertex bonding i.e. two tets=20
hinged at a point has to be disqualified as a "true"
poly).

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:32:59 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: triangles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            11-DEC-2000 12:32
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 well, every thing *does* rotate around Bucky; eh?
    in any case, what you refer to as "wire-frames" were taken
 straight from Euclidean textbook-drawings --
 not that Euclid had *any* drawings, since one was supposed
 to "do the constructions".  so, are wireframes really more real
 than cheese-hedra?...  the solidity refers only to the facets,
 although they might be composed of Klear Kevlar (tm) Dymaxion Windows.
    struts are a different matter, but no more essential
 than cladding (or structural plywood) or hubs (viz,
 the "sphere-into-spaces" model of Dreher's hinge-thingy,
 can be improved by making that hinge as large as possible,
 indtead of arbitrarily small to emphasize the trigona --
 makes them into hexagona, I think, or more equilateral ones, because
 they already are).

 a hinged pair of tetrahedra (at one edge) can be accounted
 by "V+F=E+C" -- there being now 3 "cells,"
 including "outside" of them ... which could be a Cheesiverse,
 with two tetrahedral holes in it.

 I didn't know that that summation was in _S_ (or _C_?),
 but IT IS GOOD, but does it apply to *all*
 of the deltahedra with an even number of vertices; I guess, So;
 I mean, that's clear within the small family of the deltahedra
 (composed of equilateral trigona).

 thus quoth:
  But if the number of vertices is even, and the poly is omni-
  triangulated, then N:F:E = 1:2:3 where N=V-2.  So N is even,
  therefore F is factorable by 4, ergo the surface angles total
  is evenly divisible by 720 (=4 triangles).  Again, this is
  not the same as Descartes' Deficit.

 did Bucky not uncover that deficit, as well?
    I shall henseforth use "hexaster" for octagon, if
 I wish to convey the dual to the hexahedron; OK?

 --The New World Order!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 12:43:42 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Election

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            11-DEC-2000 12:43
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 the City has done their end-run around me,
 by putting out flyers at the libraries, telling patrons
 how to create a Hotmail account -- in order to ditch
 their "world's first municipal conferencing system;"
 fortunately, this was the last day to file an affidavit
 to contest the election -- locally -- and
 I had it "included by reference," because
 they've been doing everything with the system,
 without any public process (harldy anyone knows that it exists,
 after 10 years !-)

 I actually blame them for annointing, with a supercompliant media,
 Bore and/or Gush, but there is still time to do some thing,
 seeing no "constitutional crisis" whatsoever, at this time.
    the Elctoral College *is* a deliberative body,
 no matter what the local constitutional pundit saith
 (he's from USC) -- as can be readily seen
 from the 3 times that it was an issue (and
 2 out of 3, were not bad .-)

 --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
   The Three Phases of Exploitation of the PROTOCOLS
   Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
   BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
   Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 11 Dec 2000 20:39:26 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <200012112032.eBBKWxE10362@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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The 720 thing in S, not C -- early in S.

> did Bucky not uncover that deficit, as well?

Sure, and attributed it to Descartes, though thought it
original to his own philo to make the identification
with the tetrahedron.  Relates to the 720 degree "take
out" negative system begetting a positive system.

Conceptuality springs from a subtraction (Universe
ain't a system, but your after image memory theater
version of it might be).

>    I shall henseforth use "hexaster" for octagon, if
> I wish to convey the dual to the hexahedron; OK?

Why do you call it an octagon now?  Hexaster, why not?
Do as thee will, as the Q's might say.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:54:22 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> At 07:09 AM 12/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> >> >What is the problem with naming structures by
> their
> >> >number of vertices?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Nothing wrong, of course, except any naming
> system
> >> which focuses only on V,E or F hasn't enough info
> >> to uniquely specify.  As V+F=E+2 you can see that
> >> pinning down V still gives F and E a lot of
> slack.
> >> Example: icosahedron and cuboctahedron both have
> >> 12 vertices.
> >>
> >> Kirby
> >
> >What about omni-triangulated structures? Do we run
> >into trouble there?
> >
>
> Yes.  A growing tetrahelix of face-bonded tetrahedra
> can have as many vertices as you like, starting with
> 4, and adding 1 with each new tetrahedron.  So it'll
> be able to match the vertex count of any other omni-
> triangulated poly you want to suggest.
>
> Kirby
>
> Note: in synergetics, Fuller defines this notion of
> "system" which tends to cover roundish polys with
> an even number of vertices, with more complex
> systems
> being joined versions of these.  Only the simple
> systems (the ones with polar pairs of vertices
> arrayed about a common center) have a surface-angle
> total evenly divisible by 720 as per Synergetics
> 224.60-224.70.  For example, two face-bonded tets
> have surface angles of 6*180, which is not evenly
> divisible by 720 (=4*180).

Two face-bonded tets has five vertexes. Around 2
corners there is an deficit of 180. Around the other 3
corners there is deficit of 360-(4x60)=120. 2x180 +
3x120=720. That is what I see.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Dec 2000 14:57:17 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> >Of course, what was I thinking. However, don't you
> >mean in this case we are not talking about a linear
> >increase, but a surface increase. Then, the
> volumetric
> >increase would be 900 times?
> >
>
> Frequency is a linear measure as usually used.
> A 4-v tetrahedron has double the linear dimensions
> of a 2-v tetrahedron.  Surface area (for any shape)
> goes up as a 2nd power, volume as a 3rd power, so
> you have the following table:
>
>          Area      Volume
>    2-v     a          v
>    4-v    4a         8v
>    6-v    9a        27v
>    ...
>
> Going from 4-v to 120-v is a 30-fold increase in
> linear distance, so surface area goes up by a
> factor of 30x30 (=900) and volume by 30x30x30
> (=27000).
>
> Kirby

Sorry I'm not up on my nomenclature again. I used v to
mean vertexes. Do you mean v equals frequency?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:03:36 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> >What I meant is(not what I said) that the spherical
> >volume of a structure is one unit volume more that
> its
> >non-spherical form.
> >
>
> That's not a safe generalization.  A very high
> frequency
> omnitriangulated geosphere is very close to having
> the
> volume of the "perfect" sphere (which you might
> define
> as an even higher frequency geosphere).
>
> Some shapes are more spherical than others, so the
> volume
> difference is not some given by some fixed factor
> for
> all shapes.
>
> Kirby

I enjoy trying to get some of this stuff straight. I
appreciate your comments.

Okay, if I am holding an icosahedron, and I see each
strut as a cord to a sphere, I can also imagine the
sphere, which is one unit volume (one
tetrahedron)larger than the volume of the icosahedron.

This goes for any vertexion, I guess.  ??
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:39:34 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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>Two face-bonded tets has five vertexes. Around 2
>corners there is an deficit of 180. Around the other 3
>corners there is deficit of 360-(4x60)=120. 2x180 +
>3x120=720. That is what I see.
>

That's true, but Synergetics 224.60-224.70 is about
surface angles being evenly divisible by 720 -- not
the same thing as the deficit business.

You have 6 visible faces here, but need a multiple
of 4.  (6*180)/720 does not give a whole number.
If you stipulate omnitriangulated AND even number
of vertices, you'll get the desired attribute (I
was arguing that "even number of vertices" seems
built in to Fuller's "primitive system" concept).

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Dec 2000 15:46:51 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
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>Sorry I'm not up on my nomenclature again. I used v to
>mean vertexes. Do you mean v equals frequency?
>

I assumed that's what you meant.  I guess we were
both confused.

Counting vertices seems difficult in the case of
icosaspheres (for example) because of the shared
vertices along edges between initial triangles.

The more standard thing is to count the number of
subtriangles used in a big triangle, and that number
is simply f^2 (frequency to the 2nd power).

Kirby

PS:  some people use a symbol that looks a lot like
v for frequency, lowercase greek letter Nu, see:
http://www.pmel.org/HandBook/HBpage2.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:03:41 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
In-Reply-To:  <20001212230336.21633.qmail@web4401.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Okay, if I am holding an icosahedron, and I see each
>strut as a cord to a sphere, I can also imagine the
>sphere, which is one unit volume (one
>tetrahedron)larger than the volume of the icosahedron.

Where are you getting these numbers?

The icosa leaves a lot of empty room in that sphere
-- more than 1/20th of the icosa (which in turn is
just a little less than one unit tet).

If you fill a tetra with water and pour it into
the icosa of same edges, it goes about 18 and a
half times.  But to fill the whole sphere would
be a lot more than just one more tetrahedron.
Maybe another 12 or so?

We could do the math, but I'm just trying to see
it.

>This goes for any vertexion, I guess.  ??
>

No.  As per my previous post, there's no across-the
board volume relationship between every poly and
the sphere that circumscribes it.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:29:59 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: looking for googolplex
Comments: To: "j.d. scarbrough" <jdscar@hotmail.com>
Comments: cc: joe.baust@coe.murraystate.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Jason & Joe,

Googolplex kits used to be manufactured by:

Arlington-Hews, Inc.
Box 23798 (Vancouver Airport PO)
Richmond, BC, Canada V7B 1X9
604-273-2200 Phone
604-278-0805 Fax

Above info was current as of Spring 1993.

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "j.d. scarbrough" <jdscar@hotmail.com>
To: <joemoore@cruzio.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2000 1:09 PM
Subject: looking for googolplex


> I was looking on the net for googolplex products from Arlington-Hews and I
> found your web site.  I work for Dr. Joe Baust at Murray State Universtiy
> and he uses Googolplex products to teach Teaching Elementary Math.
>
> We are intrested in finding a source for Googleplex products.  Do you know
> of anyone who might have such a connection?  Please contact    Dr. Baust
at
> joe.baust@coe.murraystate.edu or (270)762-2537.
>
> Thankyou,
> Jason Scarbrough
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Dec 2000 08:54:14 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: looking for googolplex
Comments: To: "Baust, Joe - ECE" <joe.baust@coe.murraystate.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Prof Baust,

If you are interested in building geometry models see the following list:
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/GeomModels.htm
I'm not in a position to make any recommendations because I have only had
personal experience with a few of them.

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

PS: If you are interested in building models of geodesic domes please see:
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Domes-M.htm
(scroll down to "Models")

----- Original Message -----
From: "Baust, Joe - ECE" <joe.baust@coe.murraystate.edu>
To: "'Joe S Moore '" <joemoore@cruzio.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 7:34 AM
Subject: RE: looking for googolplex


> Joe,
>
> Thanks for your prompt reply. We tried the voice number and the person
that
> answered did not know what we were talking about. Googleplex we have used
> for some time and feel it is great for teaching teachers about geometry.
> Were trying to find enough kits for colleagues at off-campus sites to
teach
> with them.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joe Baust
> Professor
> Murray State University
> Murray, KY 42071
> Voice: 270-762-2959
> Fax: 270-762-3025
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe S Moore
> To: _Geodesic; j.d. scarbrough
> Cc: Baust, Joe - ECE
> Sent: 12/12/00 10:29 PM
> Subject: Re: looking for googolplex
>
> Jason & Joe,
>
> Googolplex kits used to be manufactured by:
>
> Arlington-Hews, Inc.
> Box 23798 (Vancouver Airport PO)
> Richmond, BC, Canada V7B 1X9
> 604-273-2200 Phone
> 604-278-0805 Fax
>
> Above info was current as of Spring 1993.
(snip)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Dec 2000 16:30:20 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Another way to count:

2 corners with 180 degrees +
3 corners with 240 degrees =
360+720=1080

5 vertexes x 360= 1800 degrees

1800 - 1080 = 720

Table 224.20 Synergetics




--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> >Two face-bonded tets has five vertexes. Around 2
> >corners there is an deficit of 180. Around the
> other 3
> >corners there is deficit of 360-(4x60)=120. 2x180 +
> >3x120=720. That is what I see.
> >
>
> That's true, but Synergetics 224.60-224.70 is about
> surface angles being evenly divisible by 720 -- not
> the same thing as the deficit business.
>
> You have 6 visible faces here, but need a multiple
> of 4.  (6*180)/720 does not give a whole number.
> If you stipulate omnitriangulated AND even number
> of vertices, you'll get the desired attribute (I
> was arguing that "even number of vertices" seems
> built in to Fuller's "primitive system" concept).
>
> Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Dec 2000 14:07:28 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Can We Learn?

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            13-DEC-2000 14:07
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 the Green Generation?...  oy-heil!
    you are very correct to note the privitazation
 "uner" Carter, or Volcker with his "controlled dysintegration
 of the economy" doctrine, brought-out
 under the auspices of the Trilateral Commmission, the CFR et al
 -- the so-called "Crisis in Democracy" program/thinkpieces
 (that was begun with 21% interest rates) !!
    but I have to beg to differ on the ideal
 of the Left and the Right (as you know the nomenclature
 of the seating of the Jcobin Terror is so important, still .-)
    this is shown by the fictions that were (are still) put out,
 about how Lyn was a Trtskyist who became a Rghtwing fascist
 (from the ADL of B'nai B'rith, which is *not* a membership org,
 althought the Masonry of BB, is; it is historically (is still) linked
 to the Lansky syndicate).  the Heritage Foundation put-out
 a completely alternative slander, of course,
 just to add to the confusion at the same period of time (when
 the Bushies were cutting Lyn off from Ronny, and
 then railroaing him into prison, based upon a false Ch.13 bankruptcy,
 later declared a "constructive fraud upon the court").
    that, of course, is how the *fondi* like to see it.
    that is the result you have now, with Gore conceding,
 hoping to get his chance in 04, to the offical ideology
 of the "R" party, Reincarnation,
 of one of the most antirepublican Presidents since TR.

 fortunately, as our local constitutionalist knows is true,
 in spite of what he said;
 *structurally* the EC *is* a deliberative body,
 when the need arises, as when the DNC argues
 that the Voting Rights Act doesn't apply to them,
 and the SC agrees, and the Press blacks that out;
 and so forth.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Dec 2000 22:03:35 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Dome Greenhouses
Comments: To: Glenn Eige <glenne@sirius.com>
Comments: cc: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01C06550.89E5C620"

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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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Udgar,

I already have had you listed since 8-99 (see =
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/DomeManuf-G.htm) but using your =
old URL.  I will be inputting your new URL when I do my next =
update--hopefully in the next several months or so.  Thanks for the =
feedback

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Glenn Eige=20
  To: joemoore@cruzio.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 8:07 PM
  Subject: Dome Greenhouses


  Hi Joe,

  I enjoyed your site.=20
  I have manufactured and installed geodesic dome greenhouses for the =
last 12 years.=20
  I would love to be included on your page.=20
  We have Growing Domes,  based on Bucky's geometry, in 21 states.=20
  My web page is at http://www.growingspaces.com=20

  Thank you,

  Udgar Parsons, Owner=20

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C06550.89E5C620
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2>Udgar,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">I already =
have had you=20
listed since 8-99 (see </FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/DomeManuf-G.htm"><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New =
Roman">http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/DomeManuf-G.htm</FONT></A><F=
ONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">) but using your old URL.&nbsp; I will be =
inputting your=20
new URL when I do my next update--hopefully in the next several months =
or=20
so.&nbsp; Thanks for the feedback</FONT></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><BR><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Joe S Moore:=20
</FONT></STRONG><A href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com"><STRONG><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>joemoore@cruzio.com</FONT></STRONG></A><BR><STRONG><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute:=20
</FONT></STRONG><A =
href=3D"http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/"><STRONG><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/</FONT></STRONG></A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dglenne@sirius.com href=3D"mailto:glenne@sirius.com">Glenn =
Eige</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Djoemoore@cruzio.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com">joemoore@cruzio.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 13, =
2000 8:07=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Dome Greenhouses</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Hi Joe,</DIV>
  <DIV><BR>I enjoyed your site. <BR>I have manufactured and installed =
geodesic=20
  dome greenhouses for the last 12 years. <BR>I would love to be =
included on=20
  your page. <BR>We have Growing Domes,&nbsp; based on Bucky's geometry, =
in 21=20
  states. <BR>My web page is at <U><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.growingspaces.com">http://www.growingspaces.com</A></U=
>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV><BR>Thank you,</DIV>
  <DIV><BR>Udgar Parsons, Owner </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C06550.89E5C620--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 13 Dec 2000 23:33:40 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
In-Reply-To:  <20001214003020.11188.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 04:30 PM 12/13/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>Another way to count:
>
>2 corners with 180 degrees +
>3 corners with 240 degrees =
>360+720=1080
>
>5 vertexes x 360= 1800 degrees
>
>1800 - 1080 = 720
>
>Table 224.20 Synergetics

Yes, if these are regular face-bonded tets, that's
true.  Just saying 6 * 180 (6 faces x 180 degrees)
is more general because that allows the tets to
be long and pointy (if you like).

Again, the 720 degree deficit is not in question.
There's another passage in synergetics which asserts
that the number of degrees will be evenly divisible
by 720 (no remainder), but 1080/720 (using your
figures) leaves a remainder of 360.  Fuller's
assertion applies only to omnitriangulated polys
with an even number of vertices e.g. is true for
all the multi-frequency icosaspheres with 10 v^2 +2
vertices (v=frequency).

Kirby

>> That's true, but Synergetics 224.60-224.70 is about
>> surface angles being evenly divisible by 720 -- not
>> the same thing as the deficit business.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:41:06 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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regular face-bonded tets, that's
> true.  Just saying 6 * 180 (6 faces x 180 degrees)
> is more general because that allows the tets to
> be long and pointy (if you like).

But it still works with scalene triangles. All degrees
remain accounted for around the vertexes. What one
vertex might 'lose', another one will gain. (not that
I can prove it)
>
> Again, the 720 degree deficit is not in question.
> There's another passage in synergetics which asserts
> that the number of degrees will be evenly divisible
> by 720 (no remainder), but 1080/720 (using your
> figures) leaves a remainder of 360.


And here, yes, 1.5 is not a whole number but I'd
consider that going in evenly, if not formally so. I'm
not a math person.

Is there a misprint on pg.128, Cosmog? In the list of
'Old Name', Cubo-octa is listed twice. Where it says
'Minisystem Volumes', what is the 2.5 doing there?

And on pg. 199, same book, fig. 6.56, icosahedron
should be 5 tetrasystems (which is not the same as
volume) 300 x 12 = 3600, 3600/720 = 5.

 Fuller's
> assertion applies only to omnitriangulated polys
> with an even number of vertices e.g. is true for
> all the multi-frequency icosaspheres with 10 v^2 +2
> vertices (v=frequency).
>
> Kirby
>
> >> That's true, but Synergetics 224.60-224.70 is
> about
> >> surface angles being evenly divisible by 720 --
> not
> >> the same thing as the deficit business.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 09:59:08 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: volume
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--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> >Okay, if I am holding an icosahedron, and I see
> each
> >strut as a cord to a sphere, I can also imagine the
> >sphere, which is one unit volume (one
> >tetrahedron)larger than the volume of the
> icosahedron.
>
> Where are you getting these numbers?
>
> The icosa leaves a lot of empty room in that sphere
> -- more than 1/20th of the icosa (which in turn is
> just a little less than one unit tet).
>
> If you fill a tetra with water and pour it into
> the icosa of same edges, it goes about 18 and a
> half times.  But to fill the whole sphere would
> be a lot more than just one more tetrahedron.
> Maybe another 12 or so?
>
> We could do the math, but I'm just trying to see
> it.
>
> >This goes for any vertexion, I guess.  ??
> >
>
> No.  As per my previous post, there's no across-the
> board volume relationship between every poly and
> the sphere that circumscribes it.
>
> Kirby

I am getting this from pg. 190, Cosmography. It says

"The sum of the angles around all the vertexesof a
tetrahedron is 720 dgrs. This is true of the sum of
the angles around the vertexes of any system,
symetrical or asymetrical."

And later:

"Most important, the difference between a flat piece
of paper and a polyhedron is one tetrahedron, and the
difference between a polyhedron and a sphere is always
one more tetrahedron, 720 dgrs."

Am I not getting it?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:39:13 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> At 07:09 AM 12/11/2000 -0800, you wrote:
> >--- Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM> wrote:
> >> >What is the problem with naming structures by
> their
> >> >number of vertices?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Nothing wrong, of course, except any naming
> system
> >> which focuses only on V,E or F hasn't enough info
> >> to uniquely specify.  As V+F=E+2 you can see that
> >> pinning down V still gives F and E a lot of
> slack.
> >> Example: icosahedron and cuboctahedron both have
> >> 12 vertices.
> >>
> >> Kirby
> >
> >What about omni-triangulated structures? Do we run
> >into trouble there?
> >
>
> Yes.  A growing tetrahelix of face-bonded tetrahedra
> can have as many vertices as you like, starting with
> 4, and adding 1 with each new tetrahedron.  So it'll
> be able to match the vertex count of any other omni-
> triangulated poly you want to suggest.
>
> Kirby
>
> Note: in synergetics, Fuller defines this notion of
> "system" which tends to cover roundish polys with
> an even number of vertices, with more complex
> systems
> being joined versions of these.  Only the simple
> systems (the ones with polar pairs of vertices
> arrayed about a common center) have a surface-angle
> total evenly divisible by 720

Isn't that because for every vertex I add to a
structure (and I am only talking structure, not
system), I get two triangles? I've done some figuring
with structures with odd numbering vertexes. I keep
getting a remainder of 720 degrees, except the
5-vertexion, for which the remainder is 360. Example:
A 9-V (capital V means vertex, little v means
frequency) is 9 x 360 = 3240 and 14 x 180 = 2520. Then
3240/2520 = 1, rmndr. 720. Or 7-V, is 7 x 360 = 2520
and 10 x 180 = 1800.  2520/1800 = 1, rmndr. 720.

Dick


as per Synergetics
> 224.60-224.70.  For example, two face-bonded tets
> have surface angles of 6*180, which is not evenly
> divisible by 720 (=4*180).
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:26:11 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      compound
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Page 382 Synergetics says:

"Compound curvature is inherently self-triangulating
and concave-convexing the interaction of those
triangles around the exterior vertexes."

Can I say any closed compoundly curved surface is a
geodesic structure?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 06:01:03 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Election

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            14-DEC-2000  6:01
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Official Republican Party Ideology: REINCARNATION (viz,
 Sir George, His Cabinet, the Iran-Contra crew, and
 Ollie's 2nd Coming !-)

 Justice Scalia is on record: such niceties as the General Welfare clause
 of the Constitution are the subject of current fancy.  One can see
 in his latest decision, that the Vice President fully concedes this,
 because
 this is the same majority, at least, that provided his racist cabal of the
 DNC
 a newfound legality for over a decade of violations of the Voting Rights
 Act
 of 1965, culminating in this cycle of elections of mass-dysenfrachizement
 of 53,000 voters in Arkansas Democratic primary (a state where delegates
 must be apportioned any candidate getting over 15%; note that, if
 Gore had one Arkansas, Floridad not have been a problem for him), and
 In Michigans (where the only Democrat on the ballot, who of course won,
 was not given any delegates to Los Angeles kosher-catered N-rally.
      In such a case of massively anticonstitutional (or
 just fraudulent) behavior,
 the Electoral College is given the right, as individual citizens,
 to vote with the concurrence of their consciences; eh?  (Note:
 our local constitutional scholar from USC, at a public forum, averred that

 the EC is not a deliberative body, but this is contradicted by history
 three times in the 19th CCE!

   --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
     The Three Phases of Exploitation of the PROTOCOLS
     Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
     BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
     Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):
       17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
       18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
       19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
       20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
       21 -- OMAHA (25K)
       22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
       23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
       24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
       25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 06:03:57 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: compound

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            14-DEC-2000  6:03
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 dude, you can say any thing that we can read on yo'lips!
    perhaps, you could formulate some sort of hypothesis,
 beyond these definitional conjectures; eh?

 thus quoth:
  Can I say any closed compoundly curved surface is a
  geodesic structure?

 I knew you could!

   --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
     The Three Phases of Exploitation of the PROTOCOLS
     Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
     BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
     Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):
       17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
       18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
       19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
       20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
       21 -- OMAHA (25K)
       22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
       23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
       24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
       25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 06:07:56 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: volume

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            14-DEC-2000  6:07
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 these may be Kuromoya's own misqueues, or the first may be.

 thus quoth:
  "The sum of the angles around all the vertexesof a
  tetrahedron is 720 dgrs. This is true of the sum of
  the angles around the vertexes of any system,
  symetrical or asymetrical."

  And later:

  "Most important, the difference between a flat piece
  of paper and a polyhedron is one tetrahedron, and the
  difference between a polyhedron and a sphere is always
  one more tetrahedron, 720 dgrs."

 actually, using the projective plane (trigonated,
 of course), it might also conform to both Descartes, and
 Bucky (some sort of cosmic fourness of hypothetical trigonation ?-)

   --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
     The Three Phases of Exploitation of the PROTOCOLS
     Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
     BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
     Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):
       17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
       18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
       19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
       20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
       21 -- OMAHA (25K)
       22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
       23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
       24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
       25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:38:35 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Yeah, I can be more formal(formulate) if I have to be.

I did not mean 'can I say' in the sense of asking
permission. I mean is it true.

What is and is not a geodesic structure(to help us get
to the next generation of geodesic shelters) has got
to be fundamental to this list. And from what I
gather, a description or definition of a geodesic
structure is not so easy to come by.

Where else can I go with these questions. Don't answer
that.

Dick

--- Brian Hutchings
<r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings
> 14-DEC-2000  6:03
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  dude, you can say any thing that we can read on
> yo'lips!
>     perhaps, you could formulate some sort of
> hypothesis,
>  beyond these definitional conjectures; eh?
>
>  thus quoth:
>   Can I say any closed compoundly curved surface is
> a
>   geodesic structure?
>
>  I knew you could!
>
>    --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
>      The Three Phases of Exploitation of the
> PROTOCOLS
>      Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
>      BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@"
> http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
>      Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial
> contents):
>        17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30,
> 1981 (87K)
>        18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
>        19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
>        20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
>        21 -- OMAHA (25K)
>        22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
>        23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
>        24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
>        25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:54:43 -0600
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have been by passing this discussion, due to my work load, but I =
would
like to comment on Dick's comment=20
        "a description or definition of a geodesic structure is not so easy
to come by"  .

At the risk of seeming simplistic,
I would say that  the definition of a geodesic structure was put =
plainly in
Fullers Patent for the Geodesic Dome.=20

 A Geodesic structure: a frame of generally spherical form in which =
main
structural elements are interconnected in a geodesic pattern of
approximately great circle arcs intersecting to form a three-way grid.
Geodesic spherical structures which are inherently omni-triangulated =
framed
entirely of great circle chords. "

Now this is admittedly the "CLASSIC" definition, from Fuller himself.=20
If you start trying to define irregular structures, the question arises =
in
my mind how do you determine the GEODESIC
(i.e. shortest) path and maintain a 3 way grid.

Tony.
        -----Original Message-----
        From:   Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM]
        Sent:   Thursday, December 14, 2000 4:39 PM
        To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
        Subject:        Re: compound

        Yeah, I can be more formal(formulate) if I have to be.

        I did not mean 'can I say' in the sense of asking
        permission. I mean is it true.

        What is and is not a geodesic structure(to help us get
        to the next generation of geodesic shelters) has got
        to be fundamental to this list. And from what I
        gather, a description or definition of a geodesic
        structure is not so easy to come by.

        Where else can I go with these questions. Don't answer
        that.

        Dick

        --- Brian Hutchings
        <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
        > <<MESSAGE from>> Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings
        > 14-DEC-2000  6:03
        >                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
        >
        >  dude, you can say any thing that we can read on
        > yo'lips!
        >     perhaps, you could formulate some sort of
        > hypothesis,
        >  beyond these definitional conjectures; eh?
        >
        >  thus quoth:
        >   Can I say any closed compoundly curved surface is
        > a
        >   geodesic structure?
        >
        >  I knew you could!
        >
        >    --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
        >      The Three Phases of Exploitation of the
        > PROTOCOLS
        >      Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
        >      BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@"
        > http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
        >      Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial
        > contents):
        >        17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30,
        > 1981 (87K)
        >        18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
        >        19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
        >        20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
        >        21 -- OMAHA (25K)
        >        22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
        >        23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
        >        24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
        >        25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:12:28 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Then, in section 703.01, Bucky says geodesic
structures can be spherical, or asymmetrically
spherical, like a pear, caterpillar or elephant.

To make matters worse, he says in 700.04, all
structures properly understood are tensegrity
structures. So, to me, that means all structures are
geodesic(except the ones with discontinuous
compression, which are tensegrities).

So, where are these structures(that people have put
together)?

My hypothesis must be(if I understand myself) I can
build a continuous sheet-metal lobster on my front
lawn, and it is a geodesic structure. Or(dare I say
it) the fashionable monolithic dome is a (heavy)
geodesic structure. And what about that triangulated
cube.

Dick


--- Brian Hutchings
<r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings
> 14-DEC-2000  6:03
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  dude, you can say any thing that we can read on
> yo'lips!
>     perhaps, you could formulate some sort of
> hypothesis,
>  beyond these definitional conjectures; eh?
>
>  thus quoth:
>   Can I say any closed compoundly curved surface is
> a
>   geodesic structure?
>
>  I knew you could!
>
>    --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
>      The Three Phases of Exploitation of the
> PROTOCOLS
>      Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
>      BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@"
> http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
>      Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial
> contents):
>        17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30,
> 1981 (87K)
>        18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
>        19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
>        20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
>        21 -- OMAHA (25K)
>        22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
>        23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
>        24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
>        25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:06:55 -0800
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: volume
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>Am I not getting it?
>

=46irst, Bucky is right about the 720 degree deficit,=20
wrong about all polys' surface angles being evenly
divisible by 720 -- that's only true if V is even
(doesn't matter if omnitriangulated). =20

He mentions crocodiles on pg 191 so I assume the=20
bipyramid would apply as well.  He's simply mistaken
in that case, if the croc has an odd number of=20
vertices.

Second, he's saying you can add 720 degrees to any
poly and imagine this making a spherical counterpart
with 360 degrees around every vertex.  Bringing in=20
a volume relationship and saying the counterpart=20
sphere is one tetra more voluminous is OK I suppose=20
-- but there's no statement that the resulting sphere=20
circumscribes the shape you started with (which is
good, because that'd be wrong).  The spherical=20
tetrahedron of volume 2 will have the tips of the=20
original tetrahedron poking through its skin.  It=20
would take some math to figure the exact radius.

Bucky worked intuitively, connecting the dots of a=20
philosophy, using geometric metaphors to anchor his
key terms in a crystalline/precise matrix (that's
an eccentric phase:  flowing liquid is "home base"
you might say).  I don't think his writing passes=20
muster as some Coxeter-style treatise, some text book
for geometers -- it's blurry and unfocussed when=20
tuned at that frequency/level, and many of the=20
math-minded have dismissed it for this reason.

On the other hand, I'm suggesting the humanities-trained=20
could/should get more mileage out of it, and that these=20
math-related gaffs aren't fatal (Bucky gave us plenty=20
of useful grist, and the mills have been turning ever=20
since, producing a nutritious substance (but more mills=20
would be merrier)).

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:08:06 -0800
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.Princeton.EDU
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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At 09:41 AM 12/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>regular face-bonded tets, that's
>> true.  Just saying 6 * 180 (6 faces x 180 degrees)
>> is more general because that allows the tets to
>> be long and pointy (if you like).
>
>But it still works with scalene triangles. All degrees

What still works?  The 720 deficit thing?  Sure,=20
of course.

>remain accounted for around the vertexes. What one
>vertex might 'lose', another one will gain. (not that
>I can prove it)

The 720 deficit holds true for for all these polys
regardless of the shape of the triangles.

>>
>> Again, the 720 degree deficit is not in question.
>> There's another passage in synergetics which asserts
>> that the number of degrees will be evenly divisible
>> by 720 (no remainder), but 1080/720 (using your
>> figures) leaves a remainder of 360.
>
>
>And here, yes, 1.5 is not a whole number but I'd
>consider that going in evenly, if not formally so. I'm
>not a math person.

"Going in evenly" means no remainder.  There's no
other interpretation.

>Is there a misprint on pg.128, Cosmog? In the list of
>'Old Name', Cubo-octa is listed twice. Where it says
>'Minisystem Volumes', what is the 2.5 doing there?

Different relative sizes -- the little one has half
the edges of the volume 20 thingy.  He's had two copies
on the hierarchy since the early days.  You'll find them
both on my volumes chart at=20
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/volumes2.html as well
(near bottom -- color bands correspond to colors of=20
wireframes used elsewhere on the same page).

>And on pg. 199, same book, fig. 6.56, icosahedron
>should be 5 tetrasystems (which is not the same as
>volume) 300 x 12 =3D 3600, 3600/720 =3D 5.
>

None of the columns in 6.56 are about volume, just showing
that 720 goes in evenly, as we've been discussing (but
not for the 2-face-bonded-tet bipyramid, because v =3D odd
number for that one).  All these in the table have even
number of vertices.  I'd say the caption is misleading=20
and/or wrong, as "the sum of the angles around the vertices=20
of all solids" is NOT evenly divisible by 720 -- considering
the bipyramid as a counter example.

Bob Gray and I discussed this back on Synergetics-L a long
time ago.  He said Bucky was flat out wrong, but I was=20
willing to accept a restrictive definition of "primitive
or simple system" which made it true (circularly).  Bob=20
used the example of the bipyramid explicitly.  I suggested
the bipyramid is a "complex system" of simple systems=20
joined together, making Fuller's assertion a tautology.

However, I have to agree with Bob re Cosmography:  this=20
caption is too imprecise, as most people would consider the=20
bipyramid one of the many "solids".  One is left wondering
if Fuller is simply making an inductive error, finding it
true for x cases, and so assuming true for all, not=20
realizing that the x cases all have one thing in common=20
(an essential attribute, it turns out):  an even number=20
of vertices.  He leaves himself vulnerable here.  He=20
would have benefitted from more people checking over his
work, like Grip-Kitrick did (they found errors in=20
Synergetics, which Bucky corrected for volume 2).

Again:  I'm not talking about the 720 deficit, which is=20
the subject of 6.55.

> Fuller's
>> assertion applies only to omnitriangulated polys
>> with an even number of vertices e.g. is true for
>> all the multi-frequency icosaspheres with 10 v^2 +2
>> vertices (v=3Dfrequency).
>>
>> Kirby
>>
>> >> That's true, but Synergetics 224.60-224.70 is
>> about
>> >> surface angles being evenly divisible by 720 --
>> not
>> >> the same thing as the deficit business.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:26:30 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triangles
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>
> Yes, if these are regular face-bonded tets, that's
> true.  Just saying 6 * 180 (6 faces x 180 degrees)
> is more general because that allows the tets to
> be long and pointy (if you like).

I misunderstood. When I said it works with scalene
triangles,Kirby, I read you to be saying only regular
tets work out this way. I get it now. You are very precise.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 15:39:48 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>
>  A Geodesic structure: a frame of generally
> spherical form in which main
> structural elements are interconnected in a geodesic
> pattern of
> approximately great circle arcs intersecting to form
> a three-way grid.
> Geodesic spherical structures which are inherently
> omni-triangulated framed
> entirely of great circle chords. "
>
> Now this is admittedly the "CLASSIC" definition,
> from Fuller himself.
> If you start trying to define irregular structures,
> the question arises in
> my mind how do you determine the GEODESIC
> (i.e. shortest) path and maintain a 3 way grid.

If a closed structure is omnitriagulated(read
three-way-grid), the structure will reach equilibrium
with each vertex positioned on the invisible
asymmetrial conscribing sphere. It's automatic. Maybe
the asymmetrical part is confusing since we are so
used to seeing approximately symmetrically spherical
geodesic structures.

Dick
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:44:48 -0600
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From:         Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

How do you have an asymmetrical sphere ?
-Tony.

        -----Original Message-----
        From:   Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM]
        Sent:   Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:40 PM
        To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
        Subject:        Re: compound

        >
        >  A Geodesic structure: a frame of generally
        > spherical form in which main
        > structural elements are interconnected in a geodesic
        > pattern of
        > approximately great circle arcs intersecting to form
        > a three-way grid.
        > Geodesic spherical structures which are inherently
        > omni-triangulated framed
        > entirely of great circle chords. "
        >
        > Now this is admittedly the "CLASSIC" definition,
        > from Fuller himself.
        > If you start trying to define irregular structures,
        > the question arises in
        > my mind how do you determine the GEODESIC
        > (i.e. shortest) path and maintain a 3 way grid.

        If a closed structure is omnitriagulated(read
        three-way-grid), the structure will reach equilibrium
        with each vertex positioned on the invisible
        asymmetrial conscribing sphere. It's automatic. Maybe
        the asymmetrical part is confusing since we are so
        used to seeing approximately symmetrically spherical
        geodesic structures.

        Dick
        >
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:48:48 -0500
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: what's is this

Maybe this is relavent again, so I throw it into the Mill.




On Thu, 24 Aug 2000 14:46:18 -0500, Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM>
wrote:

>Very interesting thought experiment. I'm thinking you could have a flat mat
>-> dome system.
>Might just work. Of course you would have to keep tension on the system
(or
>could you have it lock into place when it reaches final shape ?).
>
>Then again a flat mat might get pretty large for a large dome. It might be
>better to take something similar to Hoberman's approach where you have a
>collapsed sphere/hemisphere, but using telescopic tubes.  and pull on it
>till is fully extends, locking into place at full extension.
>
>
>        -----Original Message-----
>        From:   Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM]
>        Sent:   Thursday, August 24, 2000 2:27 PM
>        To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
>        Subject:        what's is this
>
>        Make or imagine a three-way grid of one-way telescoping tubes (they
>only
>        extend and they only extend a predetermined distance) which are in
>the
>        closed mode, with  flexible connectors (hubs) at each crossing.
This
>'mat'
>        or fabric is laying flat on the ground, more or less in the shape
of
>a
>        circle or hexegon, it doesn't matter.  Stake the edges of this mat
>at each
>        connection.  Gradually pull up, approximately equally, each vertex,
>until
>        it won't expand anymore.  What happens?  What do I have?  I have
not
>tried
>        this outside of my mind.
>        Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:01:15 -0600
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From:         Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Its Great to say these things, but how do you get from the definition =
that
he defined (which I paraphrased) to applying it to an asymmetrical =
object.
As a matter of semantics, geodesic means the shortest distance between =
2
points (on a surface). Merely being triangulated isn't enough. =20

As an aside & IMHO:
I guess you are quoting Synergetics.
I have never like those works (I & II). They lack his inspiration. I =
mean
it's like trying to get the essence of a man by breaking him down in to =
his
constituent elements. Very ANTI-synergetic, if you catch my drift. And
Quoting him like the Bible is the last thing he said he wanted when I =
saw
him at A&M.  A much richer source of his concepts is found in his =
actual
works (e.g. Ideas and Integreties, Intuition, even Operating =
Manual....) or
his talks.=20

At least that is how I feel.

-Tony.

        -----Original Message-----
        From:   Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM]
        Sent:   Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:12 PM
        To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
        Subject:        Re: compound

        Then, in section 703.01, Bucky says geodesic
        structures can be spherical, or asymmetrically
        spherical, like a pear, caterpillar or elephant.

        To make matters worse, he says in 700.04, all
        structures properly understood are tensegrity
        structures. So, to me, that means all structures are
        geodesic(except the ones with discontinuous
        compression, which are tensegrities).

        So, where are these structures(that people have put
        together)?

        My hypothesis must be(if I understand myself) I can
        build a continuous sheet-metal lobster on my front
        lawn, and it is a geodesic structure. Or(dare I say
        it) the fashionable monolithic dome is a (heavy)
        geodesic structure. And what about that triangulated
        cube.

        Dick


        --- Brian Hutchings
        <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
        > <<MESSAGE from>> Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings
        > 14-DEC-2000  6:03
        >                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
        >
        >  dude, you can say any thing that we can read on
        > yo'lips!
        >     perhaps, you could formulate some sort of
        > hypothesis,
        >  beyond these definitional conjectures; eh?
        >
        >  thus quoth:
        >   Can I say any closed compoundly curved surface is
        > a
        >   geodesic structure?
        >
        >  I knew you could!
        >
        >    --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
        >      The Three Phases of Exploitation of the
        > PROTOCOLS
        >      Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
        >      BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@"
        > http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
        >      Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial
        > contents):
        >        17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30,
        > 1981 (87K)
        >        18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
        >        19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
        >        20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
        >        21 -- OMAHA (25K)
        >        22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
        >        23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
        >        24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
        >        25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:03:10 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Well, would asymmetrically spherical do? What is the
best way to describe a pear, for example. Or the
crocodile. If not spherical, then help me find the
better word. Asymmetrically-compoundly-curved?
--- Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM> wrote:
> How do you have an asymmetrical sphere ?
> -Tony.
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Dick Fischbeck
> [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM]
>         Sent:   Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:40 PM
>         To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
>         Subject:        Re: compound
>
>         >
>         >  A Geodesic structure: a frame of
> generally
>         > spherical form in which main
>         > structural elements are interconnected in
> a geodesic
>         > pattern of
>         > approximately great circle arcs
> intersecting to form
>         > a three-way grid.
>         > Geodesic spherical structures which are
> inherently
>         > omni-triangulated framed
>         > entirely of great circle chords. "
>         >
>         > Now this is admittedly the "CLASSIC"
> definition,
>         > from Fuller himself.
>         > If you start trying to define irregular
> structures,
>         > the question arises in
>         > my mind how do you determine the GEODESIC
>         > (i.e. shortest) path and maintain a 3 way
> grid.
>
>         If a closed structure is
> omnitriagulated(read
>         three-way-grid), the structure will reach
> equilibrium
>         with each vertex positioned on the invisible
>         asymmetrial conscribing sphere. It's
> automatic. Maybe
>         the asymmetrical part is confusing since we
> are so
>         used to seeing approximately symmetrically
> spherical
>         geodesic structures.
>
>         Dick
>         >
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 16:07:48 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM> wrote:
> Its Great to say these things, but how do you get
> from the definition that
> he defined (which I paraphrased) to applying it to
> an asymmetrical object.

That is the chore.

> As a matter of semantics, geodesic means the
> shortest distance between 2
> points (on a surface). Merely being triangulated
> isn't enough.

This is where I started 2 weeks ago!


> As an aside & IMHO:
> I guess you are quoting Synergetics.

Jeeze- The first time I do it, I get caught.


> I have never like those works (I & II). They lack
> his inspiration. I mean
> it's like trying to get the essence of a man by
> breaking him down in to his
> constituent elements. Very ANTI-synergetic, if you
> catch my drift. And
> Quoting him like the Bible

Hell, no. That is not me. I play with sticks and
rubber bands.


is the last thing he said
> he wanted when I saw
> him at A&M.  A much richer source of his concepts is
> found in his actual
> works (e.g. Ideas and Integreties, Intuition, even
> Operating Manual....) or
> his talks.
>
> At least that is how I feel.
>
> -Tony.
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From:   Dick Fischbeck
> [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM]
>         Sent:   Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:12 PM
>         To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
>         Subject:        Re: compound
>
>         Then, in section 703.01, Bucky says geodesic
>         structures can be spherical, or
> asymmetrically
>         spherical, like a pear, caterpillar or
> elephant.
>
>         To make matters worse, he says in 700.04,
> all
>         structures properly understood are
> tensegrity
>         structures. So, to me, that means all
> structures are
>         geodesic(except the ones with discontinuous
>         compression, which are tensegrities).
>
>         So, where are these structures(that people
> have put
>         together)?
>
>         My hypothesis must be(if I understand
> myself) I can
>         build a continuous sheet-metal lobster on my
> front
>         lawn, and it is a geodesic structure.
> Or(dare I say
>         it) the fashionable monolithic dome is a
> (heavy)
>         geodesic structure. And what about that
> triangulated
>         cube.
>
>         Dick
>
>
>         --- Brian Hutchings
>         <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
>         > <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings
>         > 14-DEC-2000  6:03
>         >
> r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>         >
>         >  dude, you can say any thing that we can
> read on
>         > yo'lips!
>         >     perhaps, you could formulate some sort
> of
>         > hypothesis,
>         >  beyond these definitional conjectures;
> eh?
>         >
>         >  thus quoth:
>         >   Can I say any closed compoundly curved
> surface is
>         > a
>         >   geodesic structure?
>         >
>         >  I knew you could!
>         >
>         >    --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
>         >      The Three Phases of Exploitation of
> the
>         > PROTOCOLS
>         >      Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO:
> (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
>         >      BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@"
>         > http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
>         >      Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm
> (partial
>         > contents):
>         >        17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF
> MARCH 30,
>         > 1981 (87K)
>         >        18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
>         >        19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
>         >        20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
>         >        21 -- OMAHA (25K)
>         >        22 -- BUSH TAKES THE
> PRESIDENCY(112K)
>         >        23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
>         >        24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
>         >        25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 18:12:26 -0600
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Asymmetrically-compoundly-curved sounds good.
I don't see how the geodesic pattern is arrived at automatically.

I could see that you could project a geodesic pattern onto an asymmetrical
surface, but the resultant "lines" on the surface wouldn't necessarily be
the shortest distance between the 2 end points. However maybe that is beside
the point, in that you could connect the end point  by straight line
"chords" . These then could be the base of a oct-tet infrastructure.


        -----Original Message-----
        From:   Dick Fischbeck [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM]
        Sent:   Thursday, December 14, 2000 6:03 PM
        To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
        Subject:        Re: compound

        Well, would asymmetrically spherical do? What is the
        best way to describe a pear, for example. Or the
        crocodile. If not spherical, then help me find the
        better word. Asymmetrically-compoundly-curved?
        --- Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM> wrote:
        > How do you have an asymmetrical sphere ?
        > -Tony.
        >
        >         -----Original Message-----
        >         From:   Dick Fischbeck
        > [SMTP:dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM]
        >         Sent:   Thursday, December 14, 2000 5:40 PM
        >         To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
        >         Subject:        Re: compound
        >
        >         >
        >         >  A Geodesic structure: a frame of
        > generally
        >         > spherical form in which main
        >         > structural elements are interconnected in
        > a geodesic
        >         > pattern of
        >         > approximately great circle arcs
        > intersecting to form
        >         > a three-way grid.
        >         > Geodesic spherical structures which are
        > inherently
        >         > omni-triangulated framed
        >         > entirely of great circle chords. "
        >         >
        >         > Now this is admittedly the "CLASSIC"
        > definition,
        >         > from Fuller himself.
        >         > If you start trying to define irregular
        > structures,
        >         > the question arises in
        >         > my mind how do you determine the GEODESIC
        >         > (i.e. shortest) path and maintain a 3 way
        > grid.
        >
        >         If a closed structure is
        > omnitriagulated(read
        >         three-way-grid), the structure will reach
        > equilibrium
        >         with each vertex positioned on the invisible
        >         asymmetrial conscribing sphere. It's
        > automatic. Maybe
        >         the asymmetrical part is confusing since we
        > are so
        >         used to seeing approximately symmetrically
        > spherical
        >         geodesic structures.
        >
        >         Dick
        >         >
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 17:48:26 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: new to lists - anyone out there in the uk?
Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Pete,

Go to the bottom of my home page (URL below) and do a search for "UK" and
"England".  You should get about 51 and 114 hits respectively.

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "The DomeHome List" <rowley@mail.telalink.net>
To: <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 10:04 AM
Subject: new to lists - anyone out there in the uk?
> ----------
> From: "Siedle, Pete" <P.Siedle@tees.ac.uk>
> Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 10:26:36 -0000
> Subject: new to lists - anyone out there in the uk?
>
> Hi All
>
> recently seen some programmes on tv which included a section, or were
about
> sustainable housing.  I was particularly interested in the self-build
> aspects of some of the homes shown. One of the houses shown was a dome
> construction which especially captured my imagination. Hence, my looking
on
> the net for info and which led my to your list(s)  :o)
>
> Anyway, I was wondering if anyone out there was from the uk and if so I
was
> hoping they might be able to give some feedback on how they went about
> building, what kinds of planning issues they came up against (if any) and
> how they were addressed, whether they self built, what sort of costs were
> involved, what sort of 'alternative' technologies were incorporated into
the
> house for water, electrics, sanitation, etc, etc, etc......
>
> Seen some of the homes on the net and must say that they look fantastic.
> Bigger than the ones I'd seen on tv, by quite a bit!  But given that most
/
> all of the domes I've come across on the net seem to be in North America I
> guess thats not suprising; ie more space to buy at cheaper prices,
compared
> to the the uk anyway :o(
>
> Thanks in advance for any feedback
>
> Pete  ;o)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 11:31:53 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: compound

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            14-DEC-2000 11:31
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 did you mean to any further considerations?
    here's an even-astered (a-hem) shape
 whose surfacial angle sum is not (as for the hexadeltahedron or
 bypyramid) a multiple of 2 cycles (or 720 degrees, or one Otto cylcle):
 the parallelepiped made of a hexaster and two tetrasters (octahedron
 and tetrahedra), whereas adding 2 pyramids to a cube (my first try)
 does evenly so-divide.

 a justification for using this alternative jargon lies
 with fullerene; the atoms of carbon are there-represented (commonly)
 by the soccerball's vertices (the chord-geodesic'd one,
 not the bouncing pneumatic job).  true,
 there is no compunction in usung its trigonated dual, since
 the 3 double-bonds form three-way vertices, with the proviso that
 the bonds are now represented lsightly differently.

 I mean, there's no compunction *not* to do so,
 to use one of Bucky's classical forms by a classicaloid Greek name:
 hexaconta(3-legged-letter)hedron.
    oops.  I meant, soccerballene as usually drawn,
 can be called hexaconta(3-legged-letter)aster, whereas
 the trigonated model is, hexacontadeltahedron
 (60 trigonal facets, or Bucky's Alternate (0-freq), I think, and
 the trigona are are isoceles .-)

 --The Electoral College Kicks Butt, or Two!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 13:49:21 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Election

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            14-DEC-2000 13:49
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 any of those who beleive that the electroal college has the right,
 and the need to dump the pair of 2nd-generation Big Oil Candidates
 -- see Celani's cartoon of the diapered siamese twins;
 "Get off my back!" --
 then, please,, see to it that your elected officials,
 eventually your Congressors who picked the Collegians,
 know of at least three things: a)
 that the Voting Rights Act was nullified on March 27th
 by the Supreme Court, and most parties went-along with it,
 if they knew, insofar as it applied *to* the parties
 (see Mel Watt's HR-4961, the VRA Clarification Act); b)
 with the 'enabling legislation' of the 527 Cmtes.,
 the Financial Services Modernization Act o'99 pushed,
 by breaking-down the Depression-era firewalls
 between banking, brokerage & insurance, a huge wall
 of funny-money of every sort (derivatives & drugs e.g.);
 c) the *cursus honorum* of Sir George Bush has been scurilously mandated
 by a Supreme Court that believes in no higher authority
 than their current opinion (as written in some
 of Justice Scalia's opinions for the majority) --
 which "honorable" career had been fully explicated
 in a book, 8 years ago, in time to help to defeat its influence
 in'92 (see this:

 --Zero Beyond Petroleum (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
   The Three Phases of Exploitation of the PROTOCOLS
   OF THE ELDERS OF KYOTO: fossilisation (sic)/
   Bore/Gush/Nadir "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
 )
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:11:04 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
In-Reply-To:  <2F175DC588EFD211B37C0060088FAC391868E5@pscserver3.team-psc .com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I guess you are quoting Synergetics.
>I have never like those works (I & II). They lack his inspiration.
<<SNIP>>

For my own perspective on this:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ocn/synessay.html

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Dec 2000 00:28:17 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.20001214211104.009d72a0@pop.teleport.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:11 PM 12/14/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>>I guess you are quoting Synergetics.
>>I have never like those works (I & II). They lack his inspiration.
><<SNIP>>
>
>For my own perspective on this:
>http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ocn/synessay.html
>
>Kirby
>

Sorry, wrong URL: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synessay.html

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Dec 2000 09:35:43 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Geodesic Airships
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Here's an article about the current status of airship technology:

"Airships Rise Again", Popular Science mag, 1-2001, pp78-83:

CooperShip: 15 helium-filled geodesic dome cells
http://exn.ca/Space/spacecraftslideshow.cfm?PX=14

Quantum Aerostatics: Stretched tensegrity geodesic dome
 http://www.quantumaerostatics.com/

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Dec 2000 13:32:20 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Tony-Instead of projecting anything, take a pear, a
felt tipped pen, and draw your own omni triangulated
design. If you then imagine those lines to be struts
connected with flex hubs and imagine the pear to
disapPEAR (be gone), I predict the imagined structure
would hold the pear's shape.

Dick
--- Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM> wrote:
> Asymmetrically-compoundly-curved sounds good.
> I don't see how the geodesic pattern is arrived at
> automatically.
>
> I could see that you could project a geodesic
> pattern onto an asymmetrical
> surface, but the resultant "lines" on the surface
> wouldn't necessarily be
> the shortest distance between the 2 end points.
> However maybe that is beside
> the point, in that you could connect the end point
> by straight line
> "chords" . These then could be the base of a oct-tet
> infrastructure.
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:16:28 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: compound
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>  did you mean to any further considerations?
>     here's an even-astered (a-hem) shape
>  whose surfacial angle sum is not (as for the
> hexadeltahedron or
>  bypyramid) a multiple of 2 cycles (or 720 degrees,
> or one Otto cylcle):
>  the parallelepiped made of a hexaster and two
> tetrasters (octahedron
>  and tetrahedra), whereas adding 2 pyramids to a
> cube (my first try)
>  does evenly so-divide.
>

Hold on. I count 12 triangles. 12 x 180 =2160
2160/720 = 3
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Dec 2000 14:25:35 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      hypoth
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dick's Guess- The total surface angle of any
polyvertexia(odd or even numbered) is evenly devisable
by one-half cycle, 360.

The reason(another guess) is that for every
tetrahedron(vertex) added to a structure, two of the
tetrahedron's triangles are convex (outward) and two
are concave (inward). Since in the above guess only
the outer triangular totals were used, we are only
talking about one-half the cycle.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Dec 2000 15:19:22 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Earthlights
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0015_01C066AA.66DAC260"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C066AA.66DAC260
Content-Type: text/plain;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Large composite satellite image of planet earth at night. Suitable for
desktop wallpaper.


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg


Dexter Graphic

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C066AA.66DAC260
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma><SPAN class=3D390051423-15122000>Large composite satellite =
image of=20
planet earth at night. Suitable for desktop=20
wallpaper.</SPAN><BR><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><U><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.=
jpg">http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0011/earthlights_dmsp_big.jpg=
</A><BR></FONT></U></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D390051423-15122000>Dexter =

Graphic</SPAN></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C066AA.66DAC260--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 15 Dec 2000 22:23:49 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Chuck Kessler <ChuckKessler@MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Election
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000D_01C066E5.B23D9C60"

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Do you always babble like this or are you just plain stupid?



----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Hutchings
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 3:52 PM
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Re: [Q-P] Election


<<MESSAGE from>> Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings            14-DEC-2000  6:01
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

Official Republican Party Ideology: REINCARNATION (viz,
Sir George, His Cabinet, the Iran-Contra crew, and
Ollie's 2nd Coming !-)

Justice Scalia is on record: such niceties as the General Welfare clause
of the Constitution are the subject of current fancy.  One can see
in his latest decision, that the Vice President fully concedes this,
because
this is the same majority, at least, that provided his racist cabal of th=
e
DNC
a newfound legality for over a decade of violations of the Voting Rights
Act
of 1965, culminating in this cycle of elections of mass-dysenfrachizement
of 53,000 voters in Arkansas Democratic primary (a state where delegates
must be apportioned any candidate getting over 15%; note that, if
Gore had one Arkansas, Floridad not have been a problem for him), and
In Michigans (where the only Democrat on the ballot, who of course won,
was not given any delegates to Los Angeles kosher-catered N-rally.
      In such a case of massively anticonstitutional (or
just fraudulent) behavior,
the Electoral College is given the right, as individual citizens,
to vote with the concurrence of their consciences; eh?  (Note:
our local constitutional scholar from USC, at a public forum, averred tha=
t

the EC is not a deliberative body, but this is contradicted by history
three times in the 19th CCE!

   --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
     The Three Phases of Exploitation of the PROTOCOLS
     Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
     BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
     Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):
       17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
       18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
       19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
       20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
       21 -- OMAHA (25K)
       22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
       23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
       24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
       25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)<br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE downlo=
ad of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer=
.msn.com</a><br></p>

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C066E5.B23D9C60
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Do you always =
babble like this or are you just plain stupid?<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> =
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FO=
NT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROU=
ND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; FONT-COLOR: black"><B>From:</B>&nbsp;Brian=
 Hutchings</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B>&nbsp;Thursd=
ay, December 14, 2000 3:52 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To=
:</B>&nbsp;GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 1=
0pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B>&nbsp;Re: [Q-P] Election</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>&=
lt;&lt;MESSAGE from&gt;&gt; Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 14-DEC-2000&nbsp; 6:01<BR=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us<BR><BR>Offici=
al Republican Party Ideology: REINCARNATION (viz,<BR>Sir George, His Cabi=
net, the Iran-Contra crew, and<BR>Ollie's 2nd Coming !-)<BR><BR>Justice S=
calia is on record: such niceties as the General Welfare clause<BR>of the=
 Constitution are the subject of current fancy.&nbsp; One can see<BR>in h=
is latest decision, that the Vice President fully concedes this,<BR>becau=
se<BR>this is the same majority, at least, that provided his racist cabal=
 of the<BR>DNC<BR>a newfound legality for over a decade of violations of =
the Voting Rights<BR>Act<BR>of 1965, culminating in this cycle of electio=
ns of mass-dysenfrachizement<BR>of 53,000 voters in Arkansas Democratic p=
rimary (a state where delegates<BR>must be apportioned any candidate gett=
ing over 15%; note that, if<BR>Gore had one Arkansas, Floridad not have b=
een a problem for him), and<BR>In Michigans (where the only Democrat on t=
he ballot, who of course won,<BR>was not given any delegates to Los Angel=
es kosher-catered N-rally.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; In such a ca=
se of massively anticonstitutional (or<BR>just fraudulent) behavior,<BR>t=
he Electoral College is given the right, as individual citizens,<BR>to vo=
te with the concurrence of their consciences; eh?&nbsp; (Note:<BR>our loc=
al constitutional scholar from USC, at a public forum, averred that<BR><B=
R>the EC is not a deliberative body, but this is contradicted by history<=
BR>three times in the 19th CCE!<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; --0BP (tm) Oil Platfo=
rm 2000!...<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The Three Phases of Exploitation =
of the PROTOCOLS<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOS=
SILISATION (sic))/<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http:/=
/www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Http://www.tarp=
ley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; 17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)<BR>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 21 -- OMAHA (25K)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; 22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; 23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; 24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; 25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)<BR><BR> <DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><=
/BODY></HTML><DIV><BR><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN E=
xplorer at <a href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a=
><br></p></DIV>

------=_NextPart_001_000D_01C066E5.B23D9C60--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Dec 2000 03:54:23 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: compound

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            16-DEC-2000  3:54
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 there are 12 trigona, but some of them are lost
 in the parallelagona facets!...  no,
 maybe you're correct, because their angles just add-up,
 anyway.

 thus quoth:
  Hold on. I count 12 triangles. 12 x 180 =2160
  2160/720 = 3

  >  the parallelepiped made of a hexaster and two
  > tetrasters (octahedron
  >  and tetrahedra), whereas adding 2 pyramids to a
  > cube (my first try)
  >  does evenly so-divide.

 --Zbp (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
   The Three Phases of Exploitation of the PROTOCOLS
   Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: fossilisation (sic)/
   bore/gush/nadir "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
     Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Dec 2000 04:24:13 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Fwd: [jeff-dicks] FW: Legal analysis of Supreme Court

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            16-DEC-2000  4:24
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I'm afraid the Supreme Court turned their March 27 decision
 for the DNC's lawyer, confirming the unconstitutionality
 of the Voting Rights Act as it applies to parties,
 against him at the federal level -- in favor of the "R" NC;
 is that a valid analysis?

 thuw quoth:
  >Q:  C'mon.  The Supremes didn't really say that.  You're exaggerating.
  >A:  Nope.  They held "Our consideration is limited to the present
  >circumstances, or the problem of equal protection in election processes
  >generally presents many complexities."
  >
  >Q:  What complexities?
  >A:  They don't say.
  >
  >Q:   I'll bet I know the reason.  I heard Jim Baker say this.  The votes
  >can't be counted because the Florida Supreme Court "changed the rules of
  >the election after it was held."  Right?
  >A.  Dead wrong. The US Supreme Court made clear that the Florida Supreme
  >Court did not change the rules of the election.  But the US Supreme
 Court
  >found the failure of the Florida Court to change the rules was wrong.
  >
  >Q:  Huh?
  >A:  The Legislature declared that the only legal standard for counting
  >vote is "clear intent of the voter."  The Florida Court was condemned
 for
  >not adopting a clearer standard.
  >
  >Q:  I thought the Florida Court was not allowed to change the
  >Legislature's law after the election.
  >A:  Right.
  >
  >Q:  So what's the problem?
  >A:  They should have.  The US Supreme Court said the Florida Supreme
 Court
  >should have "adopt[ed] adequate statewide standards for determining what
  >is a legal vote"
  >
  >Q:  I thought only the Legislature could "adopt" new law.
  >A:  Right.
  >
  >Q:  So if the Court had adopted new standards, I thought it would have
  >been overturned.
  >A:  Right.  You're catching on.

 --Zbp (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
   The Three Phases of Exploitation of the PROTOCOLS
   Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: fossilisation (sic)/
   bore/gush/nadir "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
     Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Dec 2000 12:14:40 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      One Universal Family
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi everyone,

I would like to talk with you about some ideas which have
been developing in the background of my consciousness for
the last few years and have now matured to the point where
they occupy the forefront of my mind. I would appreciate
your honest feedback and critical analysis of these ideas
in order to help me determine if they are truly worthy of
the religious significance which I have given them.

I have come to believe that all human beings are the well
loved children of God and that we form a universal family.
I have adopted this as the guiding principle of my life
and the basic premise of my philosophical thinking. As a
result, I see the world from a whole new perspective, one
where many features of our earthly existence appear very
different than they did before. For example, I now become
thoroughly disgusted when I witness any human activity
which is motivated solely by the desire to gain selfish
advantage over others through exploitation of their
weakness or ignorance. Unfortunately, I see this a lot.

I now feel that loving service of my fellows is the only
worth-while pursuit compatible with my belief that we
are all one universal family. Even as God, my spiritual
father, loves and serves me, so should I learn to love and
serve my fellow human beings. This is the only purpose I
find compatible with my existence as a son of God. My one
supreme desire is to become as good and beautiful and true
in my earthly sphere of limited human activity as God is
in his infinite sphere of eternal (timeless) perfection.
(Because everyone who reads this may not agree with my
views, I have used the pronouns "me" and "my" instead of
"us" and "our" in describing the relationships above.)

As my understanding grows, I become ever more convinced
that all of our social problems: hatred, distrust, fear,
suspicion, anger, violence, environmental destruction,
poverty, war, ignorance, mysticism, disease, malnutrition,
and cruelty could all be solved simply by people adopting
an attitude of universal family compassion for one-another
in recognition of God's infinite love of each and every
one of us, his very young but surely developing children.

By believing that we humans beings are indeed the sons and
daughters of God (the First Source and Creative Center of
ultimate reality) our whole world is transformed through
the power of love resident in each one of us. Our minds
become co-creative with the spirit of God who indwells us.
The Universal Father has not abandoned his children; he
engages with us fully in the experiential struggles to
achieve planetary prosperity and universal family harmony.

Look within and behold that a new world order is at hand!
This change of heart, this spiritual transformation, is
the most important creative act which any of us could
ever hope to achieve. It and it alone, will determine the
course of planetary unfoldment. How people see themselves
and each other is the most fundamental determiner of how
they choose and act. I see it as the key to every other
noble human aspiration from personal growth to worldwide
technical, economic, political, and cultural advancement.

I can not conceive of any human undertaking which is more
urgently needed or which would have a more profound impact
on global peace and happiness than the widespread teaching
of this spiritual truth: all human beings are the children
of God and have a role to play in the emerging universal
family of loving association. This seemingly insignificant
conceptual seed matures in those who nurture it until one
day there springs forth a new hope, will and purpose: the
wholehearted desire and spiritual determination to pursue
only those things which are good, beautiful and true in
human experience; to join with God in universal service.

It seems to me that the powerful effect of this belief can
only be confirmed by the experience of actually living it.

I am sending this message to all my friends and many lists
where a discussion of this nature would be appropriate. So
if you choose to respond, please let me know if you want
your words kept private or if I may share them with others.

Your brother,
Dexter Graphic
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 16 Dec 2000 18:54:37 -0700
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From:         marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Subject:      Show me the "money"
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Dexter,

As I point out to the UFO believers. "Show me the money" actually I tell =
them to "show me the physical evidence" of the exsistence of alien =
visitation. So the same with god. Show me physical evidence of this guy =
or gal.


Brian aren't them there US Justices sooooooooooooo clever?  "Show me the =
justice".=20



=20

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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dexter,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>As I point out to the UFO believers. =
"Show me the=20
money" actually I tell them to "show me the physical evidence" of the =
exsistence=20
of alien visitation. So the same with god. Show me physical evidence of =
this=20
guy&nbsp;or gal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Brian aren't them there US Justices =
sooooooooooooo=20
clever?&nbsp;&nbsp;"Show me the justice". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Dec 2000 00:16:42 -0800
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Show me the "money" (God)
In-Reply-To:  <000e01c067cc$520f5620$3b93a6d8@intch.com>
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> As I point out to the UFO believers. "Show me the money"
> actually I tell them to "show me the physical evidence"
> of the existence of alien visitation. So the same with
> god. Show me physical evidence of this guy or gal.

Hi Mark,

As Bucky pointed out, personality is a pattern integrity
in the medium of universal life. To know God requires the
same type of personal interaction as it takes to know
another human being. If you spent enough time interacting
with me over the Internet you would get to know me even
though you had never seen or touched me. Same with God.
The added complication with God is that he is the primal,
original, and absolute personality. The pattern integrity
which creatively designs and upholds the eternal scenario
we call universe. If it were not for the fact that we are
his offspring, we would have no hope of contacting such a
absolute being. But he makes himself available to us as a
spirit presence, actually resident in the roots of our
consciousness. We are directly wired in to his universal
family circuits and that is the explanation for the
effectiveness of prayer (not wishful thinking or magical
superstition but personal spiritual transformation.) To
get to know God one must become increasingly like him:
good, beautiful and true; possessing honesty, integrity
and creativity; one's life becoming dominated by love of
others rather then by selfish animal fear. I expect that
it will take me a very long time until I grow to fully
appreciate God's personality. (Actually I don't believe
that a *full* appreciation is possible since God's
personality is infinite like a fractal image which one
could explore forever without reaching an end.) But I do
expect to someday stand before Him in Paradise (outside
of time and space) myself perfected by the long
experiential struggle to attain His presence and grace.
But even now we are together in spirit and I sense His
fatherly love inside me. I adore Him with all my heart.

I don't know if UFOs exist but I know the Divine spirit
that lives within me.

Sincerely,
Dexter Graphic
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Dec 2000 14:24:58 -0700
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From:         marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Subject:      Utilities companys are stupid.
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They hit the largest population with the largest electric bills.
Now thats stupid!!! When constructing a monopoly one must turn up the =
volume slowly ( Like the frog in the slowly warming to boiling water)  I =
suspect there's going to be a backlash for throwing the utility payers ( =
frogs of L.A. County ) into boiling water. They may jump out and into =
alternative energy.=20

Dexter,

OK I'll work on my spiritual transformation, I just hope it doesn't ruin =
my sarcastic and at times witty self.=20

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2919.6307" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>They hit the largest population with =
the largest=20
electric bills.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Now thats stupid!!! When constructing a =
monopoly=20
one must turn up the volume slowly ( Like the frog in the slowly warming =
to=20
boiling water)&nbsp; I suspect there's going to be a backlash for =
throwing the=20
utility payers ( frogs of L.A. County ) into boiling water. They may =
jump out=20
and into alternative energy. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dexter,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>OK I'll work on my spiritual =
transformation, I just=20
hope it doesn't ruin my sarcastic and at times witty self.=20
</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Dec 2000 16:36:52 -0500
Reply-To:     mnadiv@barak-online.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         mnadiv <mnadiv@BARAK-ONLINE.NET>
Subject:      Subject: The death,
              Conspiracy - by Prof. Arnon Samueloff MD - Israel
Comments: To: Newsletter.Subscriber@horizon.barak-online.net

Subject: The death, Conspiracy - by Prof. Arnon Samueloff MD - Israel

WARNING: Prof. Arnon Samueloff MD - Medical Malpractice in Shaare Zedek Hospital

http://www.szmc.co.il/mal/

Read More in the Medical Malpractice Victims Organization - Shaare Zedek Israel
site.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 17 Dec 2000 18:33:33 -0600
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From:         Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Election
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permanent acid trip ?

        -----Original Message-----
        From:   Chuck Kessler [SMTP:ChuckKessler@MSN.COM]
        Sent:   Friday, December 15, 2000 9:24 PM
        To:     GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
        Subject:        Re: [Q-P] Election

        Do you always babble like this or are you just plain stupid?
=09


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Brian Hutchings
                Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 3:52 PM
                To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
                Subject: Re: [Q-P] Election

                <<MESSAGE from>> Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings
14-DEC-2000  6:01
                                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
        =09
                Official Republican Party Ideology: REINCARNATION (viz,
                Sir George, His Cabinet, the Iran-Contra crew, and
                Ollie's 2nd Coming !-)
        =09
                Justice Scalia is on record: such niceties as the General
Welfare clause
                of the Constitution are the subject of current fancy.  One
can see
                in his latest decision, that the Vice President fully
concedes this,
                because
                this is the same majority, at least, that provided his
racist cabal of the
                DNC
                a newfound legality for over a decade of violations of the
Voting Rights
                Act
                of 1965, culminating in this cycle of elections of
mass-dysenfrachizement
                of 53,000 voters in Arkansas Democratic primary (a state
where delegates
                must be apportioned any candidate getting over 15%; note
that, if
                Gore had one Arkansas, Floridad not have been a problem for
him), and
                In Michigans (where the only Democrat on the ballot, who of
course won,
                was not given any delegates to Los Angeles kosher-catered
N-rally.
                      In such a case of massively anticonstitutional (or
                just fraudulent) behavior,
                the Electoral College is given the right, as individual
citizens,
                to vote with the concurrence of their consciences; eh?
(Note:
                our local constitutional scholar from USC, at a public
forum, averred that
        =09
                the EC is not a deliberative body, but this is contradicted
by history
                three times in the 19th CCE!
        =09
                   --0BP (tm) Oil Platform 2000!...
                     The Three Phases of Exploitation of the PROTOCOLS
                     Of The ELDERS Of KYOTO: (FOSSILISATION (sic))/
                     BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm.
                     Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (partial contents):
                       17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981
(87K)
                       18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
                       19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB(67K)
                       20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS(26K)
                       21 -- OMAHA (25K)
                       22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY(112K)
                       23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
                       24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
                       25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
        =09
        =09



          _____ =20
=09
        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
<http://explorer.msn.com>=20
=09
=09
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:04:51 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Hawaii in 1960

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            18-DEC-2000 12:04
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us


 how about, Hawai'ian Cognitive Dissonace -- alo'ha!
    the fact is that the way to the Executive Mansion was laid
 with a Supreme Court application of Jim Crow, nationally,
 for Al Gore -- oops?
    this was the March 27th refusal of the SC to hear tha appeal
 of the 3-judge panels ascesion to the DNC's lawyer's argument,
 that the Voting Rights Act of 1965 is unconstitutional (at least
 insofar as the provisions for federal review of party by-law changes).
 this was done in time for the May Arkansas primary,
 after which the state court relied upon the standing
 of the Judge David Sentelle's 3-judge panel's decision,
 in dumping the votes of 22% of the Dem electorate (53,000 voters) and
 abrogating the state law (which apportions delegates,
 who get over 15% of the poll).
    I have thus far met only 2 persons who knew of this,
 who don't get our paper, both professors from USC (and
 they were happy to let this out at public fora,
 giving me plenty of time to debate it, since
 they both dysagreed with my characterization of "nullification).
 one of them was from Annenberg, the other a constitutional scholar
 who is constantly jabbed into the public eye, here in LA.

 alas, like the "lessons" from Madelyn Albright, abroad,
 on the uses of Jacobinism, I have also found on this list that
 an Ambassador from Myanmar is used as a straw-man-in-passing
 for corporate Coke addicts, of course given the Orwellian nomenclature
 of the evil empire's "Burma" satrap with its stay-behind wire-service
 (Reuters, the sole source of information, much of the time,
 for members of the free-trade consortium called, the Commonwealth).
    really, that is like we have nationally with Harry Shearer
 on NPR (and teh Armed Forces Radio Network, a-hem),
 the continual expiation of dead white liberal male guilt
 with his constantly oblique message: LYNCH O.J., please!
 (if you see the Buddha on the golf course,
 tease him .-)

 --The Dukes of Oil!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Dec 2000 06:57:47 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Inward Tranquility Confronts Social Angst

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            19-DEC-2000  6:57
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I should have signed-off well-before the election,
 which I am locally contesting, as it is plain as grunion
 on a full moon, that you-all will not give the time of day
 to an associate of Lyn (who won the Michigan Primary, and
 got 22% in Arkansas, to rub it in, again, that it was Mssr.Gore
 who lost Arkansas with such shennanigans, not some yahoo-Greens).
    the trouble with most dyscussion of "climate change" is that,
 barring any notion to the contrary, they're coded to mean "overall" or
 global warming.  it is the same with NOx, being 200 times as strong
 (per mole or per weight?) as CO2, or the #1 glasshouse gas,
 water vapor (how powerful is it re CO2, per molecule?) -- all based
 primarily upon  comuterized simulacra, and data that is either scanty
 ot taken way out of context or both (generally: for instance,
 the absurd conclusions upon seeing one's largest iceberg, ever,
 since having gotten a complete "inventory" of them by satellite,
 for a few decades; and, couldn't that mean that
 the precipitation over Antarctica has increased, two?...  of course,
 the entire Ross Ice Shelf could fly off, and wouldn't affect sea-level,
 at all -- unless it were hauled into space by aliens !-)

 the City is about to shut-down the very last terminal
 of the "Public Electronic Network" without any public process (although
 there's a replacement listserv called "WIN"), at the same time
 as they stonewall my cahllenge to the local election; starngely,
 the power-cord for this unit had dyssapeared on Friday (so,
 I brought my own .-)

 I'm not quite done, yet, though, so
 you still have Quincy to kick-around for a while;
 if I don't fomrally sign-off, you'll know that
 Gore's Jim Crow "D" apparatus has ripped this unit
 out of the wall, essentially, along with 10 years
 of jacobin e-democracy hype,
 unofficailly dyscontinuing the 10-year-old system known,
 barely, now, as PEN.

 --The End of History!
 http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:32:36 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Inward Tranquility Confronts Social Angst

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            19-DEC-2000 11:32
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Quotes to this and other headers are below.

 'Twould be impossible for you to critique Lyn's opinions if,
 as is not unusual, a)
 they are based upon the bizarre rantings
 of those who never address what he says, or b)
 you won't tackle any of his ideas, because
 of the republican tradition that he espouses (herein, I mean,
 the ideals of a democratic republic have a lot in common
 with what is often called socialist democracy,
 with an obvious inversion of the political neccesity
 of "having" a republic, in the first place; that is,
 there have also been republics that were lead by kings
 "for the general welfare," as in Louis XI's France, but
 there is no corresponding "socialic" in common use (is there,
 other than socialist republic?), when the thing is to use democracy
 as the subject, or noun.  Two,
 there is often confusion with the "social contract" of John Locke,
 who wrote the constitution of S.Carolina with its clauses
 for indentured servitude, predecessor of the CSA's.
    As for the Constitution,
 in the Lincoln-Douglass debates,
 it is shown that the Framers planned for the disbandment
 of slavery.

 "PEN" has been unadvertized for half of its existence, and
 I am one of the few, remaining users;
 all but one of the public terminals have been removed,
 without any notice, and I have been charged with trespassing
 for trying to find out, why (although I guess that I know).
 I've "included it by reference" in my challenge,
 which so far has been totally stonewalled, although
 they've spent some time in doing so!

 As for simulacra,
 I have averred several times that they are belied
 by the physical observations, and
 especially by the "anomaly" of especially warm winter and night.
    mMst of the problem is a matter of a)
 buzzwords like "global" warming that have long-been out of date, and b)
 a strange lack of spherical geometry, or the effect
 of demanding ultra-flat screens?  (I have a bit of insight
 on that, since I have been a follower of Bucky's icosahedral and
 tetrahedral projections, although these particular things are
 generally ignored within his fanclub .-)

 I believe that it was Mary of the Immaculate Conception, while
 that little kid was just the product of a Higher Union --
 not that her mother was a virgin, two (either, but
 a lovely metaphor .-)

 As for the Revolutionary farmers,
 it is impossible to extract the ideal republic
 from a nation that was founded in slavery,
 primarily at the behest of the British Empire,
 right up to the Civil War (and beyond, if
 you don't rely on British history, of course --
 the Bond/Powers joke that British Intelligence are the White Hats!
    And that is the thing with "capitalism"
 being interred as "free trade" and the consequent wage-slavery;
 capitalism has nothing to do with patterns of ownership, but
 with Leibniz's Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
 (Locke: and Property.)

 thus quoth:
 Re: [Q-P] Inward Tranquility Confronts Social Angst
  As for Lyndon LaRouche -- it's not your fault that I am unable
  to take him or his ideas seriously.

  Whatever the city is doing to your electronic network, why
  aren't other users protesting along with you?  I don't see

  You say you are contesting an election.  I hope it works out

  We've discussed computer simulation models briefly before.

 Re: [Q-P] Historical roots of the Greens
  revolution."  Contrary to popular belief, America was not,
  like the baby Jesus, the product of an immaculate conception.

  independence"; rather it is that they, in fighting the Brits,
  made it possible for colonial elites to retain their status

  the more the professed ideals of the American Revolution
  were trumpeted by the rich(er), the faster those ideals
  faded in the hopes of the poor(er).

  Re: [Q-P] Population projectionsmemory, albeit just barely -- when
 industrial capitalism
  was thought of as "wage slavery," and was criticized as
  such on moral grounds, even in the United States, even
  in the pages of the _New_York_Times_.

 --The New World Order (249K)
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Dec 2000 11:43:30 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      good reporting!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            19-DEC-2000 11:43
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 by the way, I was very happy with not only hte reporting
 on the scurillously Supreme decision in the L.A. Times, but also
 with yesterday's 2 editorials that busted-open, more or less,
 the phony Belmont Highschool "Fiasco" of a development that
 the local parents really want (and the Mayor is on the board
 of the company, Laidlaw/Greyhound, that busses 1500 of them
 to the Valley), and
 one on going ahead and calling Socal Edison's bluff, and
 putting them under bankruptcy receivership!

    now, hopefully, my case will help toward the establishment
 of a Congressional Committee to investigate this last election!
 (see http://www.larouchespeaks.com/ .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 19 Dec 2000 22:10:28 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: One Universal Family
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> As my understanding grows, I become ever more
> convinced
> that all of our social problems: hatred, distrust,
> fear,
> suspicion, anger, violence, environmental
> destruction,
> poverty, war, ignorance, mysticism, disease,
> malnutrition,
> and cruelty could all be solved

Didn't Bucky say something about ARTIFACTS?  Change
the environment, and people will behave in healthier
ways.

simply by people
> adopting
> an attitude of universal family compassion for
> one-another
> in recognition of God's infinite love of each and
> every
> one of us, his very young but surely developing
> children.
>
> By
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 02:28:08 -0800
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: One Universal Family
In-Reply-To:  <20001220061028.13636.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com>
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> From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
> On Behalf Of Dick Fischbeck
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 22:10
>
> > As my understanding grows, I become ever more convinced
> > that all of our social problems: hatred, distrust, fear,
> > suspicion, anger, violence, environmental destruction,
> > poverty, war, ignorance, mysticism, disease, malnutrition,
> > and cruelty could all be solved simply by people adopting
> > an attitude of universal family compassion for one-another
> > in recognition of God's infinite love of each and every
> > one of us, his very young but surely developing children.

> Didn't Bucky say something about ARTIFACTS?  Change
> the environment, and people will behave in healthier
> ways.

It was the SPIRITUAL ATTITUDE of love for all of humanity
which motivated Fuller to create those helpful artifacts.

Those who lack this sense of universal family love often
end up designing artifacts to enslave and exploit people.

The key difference is what one chooses to believe. Bucky
believed that "the Universe" wanted everyone to succeed.

I believe the Universal Creator is our spiritual father.

Dexter Graphic
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:58:57 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Stephen O'Shaughnessy <sosha@TRIPLECROWNSVC.COM>
Subject:      Re: One Universal Family
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dexter Graphic [mailto:dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 5:28 AM
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: Re: One Universal Family
>
> > Didn't Bucky say something about ARTIFACTS?  Change
> > the environment, and people will behave in healthier
> > ways.
>
> It was the SPIRITUAL ATTITUDE of love for all of humanity
> which motivated Fuller to create those helpful artifacts.
>
> Those who lack this sense of universal family love often
> end up designing artifacts to enslave and exploit people.
>
> The key difference is what one chooses to believe. Bucky
> believed that "the Universe" wanted everyone to succeed.
>
This, in essence, is what the noted psychologist Carl Jung
posited.  It is what lead to his split with his mentor and
teacher Freud.  Where Freud believed that mankind's struggle
was with the negative, evil, animalistic forces of his own
Id, Jung saw the struggle as one to achieve our highest
potential over a neutral environment.  He called it Self
Actualization.

> I believe the Universal Creator is our spiritual father.

I believe this also.  Further I believe that we are aspects
or small parts of this Universal Creator, which is the whole.
As such we are also creators.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:11:29 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: One Universal Family
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--- Stephen O'Shaughnessy <sosha@TRIPLECROWNSVC.COM>
wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dexter Graphic
> [mailto:dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 5:28 AM
> > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> > Subject: Re: One Universal Family
> >
> > > Didn't Bucky say something about ARTIFACTS?
> Change
> > > the environment, and people will behave in
> healthier
> > > ways.
> >
> > It was the SPIRITUAL ATTITUDE of love for all of
> humanity
> > which motivated Fuller to create those helpful
> artifacts.
> >
> > Those who lack this sense of universal family love
> often
> > end up designing artifacts to enslave and exploit
> people.
> >
> > The key difference is what one chooses to believe.
> Bucky
> > believed that "the Universe" wanted everyone to
> succeed.
> >
> This, in essence, is what the noted psychologist
> Carl Jung
> posited.  It is what lead to his split with his
> mentor and
> teacher Freud.  Where Freud believed that mankind's
> struggle
> was with the negative, evil, animalistic forces of
> his own
> Id, Jung saw the struggle as one to achieve our
> highest
> potential over a neutral environment.  He called it
> Self
> Actualization.
>
> > I believe the Universal Creator is our spiritual
> father.
>
> I believe this also.  Further I believe that we are
> aspects
> or small parts of this Universal Creator, which is
> the whole.
> As such we are also creators.

Happy solstice to all the pagans reading.

Bucky made a very important distinction between belief
and faith.  Faith is a result of experience. Belief is
not based on experience. Yes?

Now, I'm not saying that an epiphany is not an
experience, and some lucky people get to experience
that.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:50:00 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Environmental Learning/Conference Center
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
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According to the geodesic dome manufacturer, New Age Construction
(http://web.dbtech.net/~newageco/ ), they erected a double-dome (apparently
shared) office complex in Americus, GA, USA, for Habitat for Humanity/Keep
Sumter Beautiful around October, 2000.

 http://www.keepsumterbeautiful.org/dome.html

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:25:40 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Mark Siegmund <siegmund@THEGRID.NET>
Subject:      International Journal of Humanities and Peace
Comments: To: "Geodesic Listserve GEODESIC"@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
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Hi, Season's Greetings and Wishes for a Stellar 20001!

For those on this list who have contributed articles for Vol. 16, No.1 of
The International Journal of Humanities and Peace (IJHP)--it is at the
printer--and we will begin sending out complimentary author's copies in the
next week or so.

If you have submitted an article for this issue, kindly send me your current
mailing address.

Also, we are now accepting submissions for Vol. 17, No. 1, 2001.  The
general topic/theme, will again be "The Culture of Peace".

For submission guidelines, please visit our webpage at:
http://netword.com/*ijhp

Many thanks and much appreciation to those of you who have been published in
this volume, and/or previous volumes.  It is your work that makes IJHP the
leader in its field.

Cheers,
Mark Siegmund
Associate Editor
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:28:52 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition.

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            20-DEC-2000  6:28
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 thus quoth:
  Please listen to the overwhelming consensus of scientists on this.

 ... based not upon such observations as from satellites, nor
 on empirical findings like the USDA Hardiness Zone maps
 (taken sequentially), the members of the concensus,
 which is not at all universal, have been o'erwhelmed
 by their computerized simulacra -- or, perhaps,
 man-years of childhood "experience" in front
 of another sort of cathode-ray-tube!
    that is to say, if you can do it, please,
 prove to us that the vast concensus of glaciers,
 including those of the continental interiors
 that feed into the Arctic Circle, are receding,
 say.

 anyway, a vote for Gore just happenned to have been a vote
 for Jim Crow, and Nader did nothing about it either (however,
 Rep. Mel Watt has HR-4961,
 the Voting Rights Clarification Act of (July 26) 2000!

 --The New World Order!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 06:41:38 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition.

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            20-DEC-2000  6:41
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 before I sign-off, or am signed-off by the City for a year or two
 in the state slam, in their drive for a Green Hollywood-
 by-the-sea regime, we can again dysprove the "overall" warming
 hypothesis of 1896 (Svente Arrhenius) as a crummy model (but
 an OK first hypothesis .-)
    simply, we do this by throwing a construct at it,
 The Hole in the Ozonosphere, which was first dyscovered
 *as a phenomena* during the Intl. Geophysical Year ('58-9)
 by Dobson and Nicole, although they were not able
 to ascertain its true, seasonal nature, and
 was ceratainly not called, a hole!
    meteorologically, what is this structure referred-to as,
 in contrast with the construct of latter-day theorists
 for the Du Pont cartel (a.k.a. the Bronfman Gang) ??

 >  --The New World Order!
 >  http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:47:34 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Chuck Kessler <CKESSLER@PRODIGY.NET>
Organization: Prodigy Internet
Subject:      Re: International Journal of Humanities and Peace
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unsubscribe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Siegmund" <siegmund@THEGRID.NET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 12:25 PM
Subject: International Journal of Humanities and Peace


> Hi, Season's Greetings and Wishes for a Stellar 20001!
>
> For those on this list who have contributed articles for Vol. 16, No.1 of
> The International Journal of Humanities and Peace (IJHP)--it is at the
> printer--and we will begin sending out complimentary author's copies in
the
> next week or so.
>
> If you have submitted an article for this issue, kindly send me your
current
> mailing address.
>
> Also, we are now accepting submissions for Vol. 17, No. 1, 2001.  The
> general topic/theme, will again be "The Culture of Peace".
>
> For submission guidelines, please visit our webpage at:
> http://netword.com/*ijhp
>
> Many thanks and much appreciation to those of you who have been published
in
> this volume, and/or previous volumes.  It is your work that makes IJHP the
> leader in its field.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark Siegmund
> Associate Editor
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:52:15 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Out of curiosity, I looked for info on your guy,
Lyndon. Now, Brian, don't get me wrong because I think
you must know something and you understanding that
Fuller can help us all in a big way (and I think you
have good humor). BUT... What I found here does not
sound too good for old Lyndon, although I am sure he
is slandered all the time, sort of like Bucky. Fill me
in, please, on the connection you find between LL and
BF(not more than ten pages please).

Dick


From:
The LaRouche Movement: American 'fascism' or something
else?
by Steve Mizrach

<cut>
has managed to take the bend all the way around from
the Far Left to the Far Right, without breaking his
neck. In the 60s and 70s, he was "Lyn Marcus," head of
the International Caucus of Labor Committees, an
ultra-doctrinaire Marxist group with some strange
disciplinary practices. Even back in the late 70s he
was warning of impending financial crisis and cultural
ruin. Today, Lyn(don) is a big promoter of the
Strategic Defense Initiative, an implacable foe of
world communism, a big supporter of a united Germany,
and a borderline anti-Semite, who has attacked a whole
bunch of Jews - particularly Roy Cohn, Henry
Kissinger, and the heads of the Anti-Defamation League
of B'nai Brith - by saying they are really "Zionists,"
i.e. a particularly wicked bunch of Jews... anyone
remember the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? (One
might note that LaRouche has, on several occasions,
attacked the Nazi-hunting branch of the Department of
Justice (the OSI) as "witch hunters persecuting
upright German citizens," some of those upright
citizens being V2 rocket engineers smuggled into this
country through Project Paperclip.) It is clear that
his trip into the Far Right has left him with some
discredited Far Left ideas.

--- Brian Hutchings
<r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings
> 20-DEC-2000  6:41
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  before I sign-off, or am signed-off by the City for
> a year or two
>  in the state slam, in their drive for a Green
> Hollywood-
>  by-the-sea regime, we can again dysprove the
> "overall" warming
>  hypothesis of 1896 (Svente Arrhenius) as a crummy
> model (but
>  an OK first hypothesis .-)
>     simply, we do this by throwing a construct at
> it,
>  The Hole in the Ozonosphere, which was first
> dyscovered
>  *as a phenomena* during the Intl. Geophysical Year
> ('58-9)
>  by Dobson and Nicole, although they were not able
>  to ascertain its true, seasonal nature, and
>  was ceratainly not called, a hole!
>     meteorologically, what is this structure
> referred-to as,
>  in contrast with the construct of latter-day
> theorists
>  for the Du Pont cartel (a.k.a. the Bronfman Gang)
> ??
>
>  >  --The New World Order!
>  >  http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:57:16 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Dome For Sale-Kanab, UT, USA
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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"Architecturally delightful geodesic dome with 3 bedrooms and 1 1/2 baths.
Hand-hewn spiral pinewood stairs lead to an upper bedroom loft. Large
detached 2-car garage. Spectacular views from this partially fenced .56 acre
lot with a select variety of mature trees & shrubbery. Great location in the
Kanab Creek Ranchos. Perfect for a single or couple. $69,900"

 http://www.xpressweb.com/adoberealty/listpic.html
(sixth item down)

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 20 Dec 2000 21:59:19 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Searching Patents
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Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "The DomeHome List" <rowley@looknfeel.com>
To: <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 4:08 PM
Subject: Searching Patents


> Date:        12/19/00 4:44 PM
> From:        Michael Driscoll, driscoll@camalott.com
>
> If anyone is interested in searching and seeing the patents that relate to
> geodesic domes and various connectors can search for patents and see the
> patents including the art work for all your favorite dome manufactorers.
>
> Go to the site: http://www.uspto.gov/web/menu/search.html
>
> Select:  Patent Full-Text Database with Full-Page Images
>
> Select: Manual Search
>
> Type "ttl/geodesic AND ttl/Dome" in the Query block and for Select Years
> choose All Years
>
> Then you can go to the various patents and see them. You can use a number
> of
> various by searching in the abstract section and so on.
>
> You may need to download a file from http://www.mieweb.com/alternatiff/ in
> order to see the actual patents but its pretty cool. You can find the
> patents on connectors from all your favorite dome builders and see what
> they
> are like and so on. Its also pretty interesting that some of the "bad"
> ideas
> there are.
>
> Michael
>
>
>
>                 o
>            ===== The DomeHome Email List
>       ========== Web: http://www.domegroup.org
>    ============= Send posts to: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com
>  =============== To unsubscribe, write: unsubscribe DomeHome-H
> ================ and send to this address: requests@h19.hoflin.com
>
>
> ** subscribe/unsubscribe to this list (under DOG LISTS) and subscribe to
> DOME at http://www.hoflin.com
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:45:11 -0700
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Subject:      The Supremes
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Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:53:52 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      My strategy
Comments: cc: Tetworld@listbot.com
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My strategy:

Since 1997, I've been brainstorming around something I call a
"math makeover" campaign, meaning I've wanted to see reforms in
math education.

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/makeover0.html

For the last few years, we've seen something called the "math
wars" in the USA, wherein traditionalists call for a return to
a more conventional math-teaching approach. The traditionalists
revile so-called "fuzzy math" and got that letter published in
the Washington Post, signed by lots of mathematicians, decrying
recent trends in math ed.

http://hoover.org/pubaffairs/we/current/evers_0100.html

I'm not a traditionalist, nor am I necessarily an exponent of
the curricula approved by "the establishment" (i.e. Dept of
Education) as "exemplary" (the stuff the Washington Post letter
was condemning).  I follow my own intuitions in these matters,
plus I have background as a classroom math teacher in Jersey
City and text book contributor at McGraw-Hill.

Anyway, one of the reforms I'd like to see is more real
computer use in math class, instead of just calculators.  The
math teaching community seems hooked on calculators as
synonymous with what it means to have "technology in the
classroom", while meanwhile quasi-ignoring the fact that we
have free, accessible, very-easy-to-start-using computer
languages out there, ready to run on computers today -- but
not used by most kids or their teachers.

As one parent wrote to me about this state of affairs:

   My daughter attends a public school with beautiful
   Macintosh teaching labs, several computers in every
   classroom, and either 100MB Ethernet or wireless
   networks covering the school. However, most of what
   gets done on the computers is called "multimedia" and
   I was required to buy my daughter a graphing calculator
   this year for precalculus...

How easy is it to learn math writing little programs?

Let's take an example. In Synergetics we have this formula
10 f^2 + 2, which gives the number of vertices in a geodesic
sphere (f= frequency), and the number of spheres in layer f
of a cuboctahedron, when packing successive layers around a
nuclear sphere: 12, 42, 92, 162 spheres.  I've got an animated
graphic of this at the top of:

http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/xtals101.html

In Python, you could write this simple formula as a two-line
program (or even a one-line program):

>>> def cubocta(f):
       return 10*f*f + 2

...and then use it interactively at the command line:

>>> cubocta(2)
42
>>> cubocta(10)
1002

We have links to virology here as well, and buckyballs too.

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/virus.html

Suppose you want to know not just how many spheres are in the
outmost layer, but in all the layers added together?  Another
easy program:

>>> def allspheres(f):
       total = 0
       # loop for i from 2 to f (up to, not incl f+1)
       for i in range(1,f+1):
          total = total + (10*i*i + 2)
       return total + 1       # add nuclear sphere

>>> allspheres(2)
55
>>> allspheres(3)
147

Metal clustering experiments show atoms starting in an
icosahedral shape, but at a certain size transforming to a
cuboctahedral shape with the same number of total atoms --
the jitterbug transformation has been found in nature.

http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/synergetica/synergetica2.html

In math we already have what are called the "figurate numbers"
e.g. the "triangular numbers" (1,3,6,10,15...) which suggest
spheres organized in a triangle:

          *      *         *           *
                * *       * *         * *
                         * * *       * * *      ...
                                    * * * *

          1       3         6         10        ...

...so it's very easy to segue (connect) to spatial figurates,
such as the tetrahedron, octahedron, icosahedral shell or
cuboctahedron.  Figurate numbers can be spatial shapes too.
So this is a way to connect through Bucky's stuff and sphere
packing in general, from well-known territory already accessible
to elementary schoolers.  This is the approach I take in
"Getting Serious About Series":

http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/numeracy0.html

Here you'll find Bucky's contribution being integrated into
basic math education, along with a "math through programming"
approach, i.e. I'm showing how we could be using computers,
not just calculators.

In sum, IF math teachers buy that going with computers over
calculators might really be a good idea, THEN I'm already
prepared with some excellent curriculum ideas which seamlessly
integrates some of the Synergetics material.  My "math through
programming" materials are quite simply some of the best
anywhere.

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/python/2000/10/04/pythonnews.html

So IF we get more computer use in elementary math education
THEN we will have more opportunities to explore Synergetics
in K-12 -- and by extension more of Bucky's contribution in
general (e.g. the focus on an artifact-based approach to raising
living standards).

That's my approach in a nutshell.

I try to stimulate student interest in all this directly,
i.e. lets not wait for overspecialization to take its course
unresisted.  We should question this lack of computers in
math class, not just accept it as a given.

For example, I think many students have a natural interest
in cryptography, and whereas you can do a lot with cryptography
with computers, you can't do so much with calculators -- and
cryptography is very math-intensive (tends to use big numbers
-- bigger than a calculator can handle), so there's every
reason to build it in to everyday math class.  So you see what
I'm up to in posts such as the following:

http://www.mathforum.org/epigone/k12.ed.math/glaterdphum
http://www.mathforum.org/epigone/math-teach/zhahcrafah

It's a very simple strategy:  math makeover means more
intelligent use of computers in early math education means more
Bucky and synergetics in the curriculum.  Plus we had both
major candidates for USA president harping on education as a
priority -- it's already something people want to focus on.

When I'm feeling upbeat, I think:  there's no way we can
lose.  When I'm feeling depressed I think:  why is it all
taking so long, why is evolution so goddamn slooooooow??

Kirby

PS:  were we to get more synergetics in the classroom, we
could get more of it on TV as well, and open the conversation
re design science.  It would be so easy to take this ongoing
evening news thread re the power shortage in California,
and zoom back to talk about the energy grid more globally,
plus long range plans to keep connecting parts of it together.
The idea of shunting power back and forth between hemispheres
should be public knowledge, part of what any half-way
decently informed human being who watches a lot of TV knows
about.

This idea that we have to suppress everything to do with Bucky
and make fun of his ideas, as revenge for something (maybe
because the Dymaxion House didn't take off as expected in the
1940s) just doesn't make much sense.  Or maybe revenge is only
a motive for some.  For most these days, there's no motive --
just a gaping hole in their knowledge base.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 08:56:07 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      virus shells
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

To those interested:



http://aladdin.wustl.edu/virology/virology.nsf/aac7d56ca8fd884b852563be00610639/a6751e04f7536e478625694c007242a0?OpenDocument



Dick Fischbeck
No bad kids.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:41:10 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: The Supremes

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            21-DEC-2000  3:41
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 that whole column was excerpted on another list, and
 it went further then most of the violent-and-or-humorous editorials
 that have appeared, semi-universally!
    we are calling for a Congressional committee
 to investigate the Jim Crow parcticec, particularly in Florida, but,
 if the chips are allowed to fall wherever gravity deems proper,
 the Gore camp may also have a Hell of a mess to deal with
 (they's a lil thing called the Voring Rights Act of 1965;
 see HR-4961 -- the Voting Rights Clarification Act of 2000,
 please !-)

 thus quoth:
 Q:  Was it the butterfly ballots that violated Florida law and tricked
 more than 20,000 Democrats to vote for Buchanan or Gore and Buchanan.

 A:  Nope.  The Supreme Court has no problem believing that Buchanan got
 his highest, best support in a precinct consisting of a Jewish old age home
 with Holocaust survivors, who apparently have changed their mind about
 Hitler.

 Q:  Yikes.  So what was the serious equal protection problem?


 well, the only folks that have changed their mind about Hitler,
 may be heirs of Prescott Bush -- we can hope.  how many wonder,
 along with the saddling of Buke with a self-professed mental incompetent,
 if there was not a genuine effort to get more of Buke's real concerns,
 out there (I don't believe that he's a Hitler-lover,
 by any real measure; do *you* love the Treaty of Versailles?)

 http://www.michaelmoore.com/2000_12_15.html

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto (sik): fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
     Introduction: An American Caligula? (47K)
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
     26 -- Epilog: SHAG ME WITH A SPOON, AUSTIN POWERS? (0K)

 * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
 bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
 to become the USA’s #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
 in May, the price of “petrol” almost doubled.  Things that make y’go,
 Hm; hm?…  Merged with Internet Time,
 our lordships have provided a year-zero, 2000 CCE (whereby,
 1999 becometh 1bbp – or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:54:30 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: My strategy

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            21-DEC-2000  3:54
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 the less said about fuzzy math, the better -- a-hem!

 I went to the last schoolboard meeting and followed-up
 on a previous statement that I made, there,
 about the naughtiness of calculators in the early grades.
    the assertion was that calculators destroy
 an easy know-how in algebra, because
 the well-known decimal system is actually a toy algebra,
 severely limited as the single variable (10),
 the exponents (integers) and the coefficients (0-9).
    so, I just provided the citation from the 15th Cce,
 which you can find completely explicated in Oystein Ore's book
 on numbertheory.  before this,
 "Arabic numerals" were not employed "decimally,"
 that is with a decimal-point in any consistent way, but
 the popular book by the Dutch author revolutionized them.
    you can see that Leibniz' development of binary arithmetic
 was "trivial," whether or not he read the book
 (his and Kepler's and Pascal's and Fermat's calculators were, all,
 using base-ten, of course, I think .-)

 thus quoth:
  computer use in math class, instead of just calculators.  The

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto (sik): fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
     Introduction: An American Caligula? (47K)
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
     26 -- Epilog: SHAG ME WITH A SPOON, AUSTIN POWERS? (0K)
 * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
 bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
 to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
 in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.  Things that make ygo,
 Hm; hm?  Merged with Internet Time,
 our lordships have provided a year-zero, 2000 CCE (whereby,
 1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 03:58:18 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Dome For Sale-Kanab, UT, USA

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            21-DEC-2000  3:58
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I seem to recall that the Kanab Forest is near St. George,
 downwind from those nuke-yellar bomb tests;
 have a fire-sale -- the sky is glowing!

 thus quoth:
  SUBJECT: Dome For Sale-Kanab, UT, USA
  MESSAGE   from ="List                             21-DEC-20  3:12
  "Architecturally delightful geodesic dome with 3 bedrooms and 1 1/2
 baths.
  Hand-hewn spiral pinewood stairs lead to an upper bedroom loft. Large
  detached 2-car garage. Spectacular views from this partially fenced .56
 acre
  lot with a select variety of mature trees & shrubbery. Great location in
 the
  Kanab Creek Ranchos. Perfect for a single or couple. $69,900"

   http://www.xpressweb.com/adoberealty/listpic.html
  (sixth item down)

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto (sik): fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
     Introduction: An American Caligula? (47K)
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
     26 -- Epilog: SHAG ME WITH A SPOON, AUSTIN POWERS? (0K)
 * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
 bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
 to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
 in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.  Things that make ygo,
 Hm; hm?  Merged with Internet Time,
 our lordships have provided a year-zero, 2000 CCE (whereby,
 1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 04:07:34 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition.

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            21-DEC-2000  4:07
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 oy heil, Dickwad!
    seriously,
 that was pure gahbaj, from the usual sources,
 such *as* the ADL (which is not a membership organization, although
 B'nai B'rith is, of course, being a freemasonic lodge --
 "we don't get our hands dirty with that masonry stuff!" -- that is
 to say, it is not a Jewish organization per se,
 it just cultivates them.  if you want to get into the bloody history
 of the B'nai B'rith fellow-travellers in the Young America/Israel/etc.
 movement, you have only to look at the publications
 of *La Jeune Turque*, about the time of the Armenian genocide).
    butt, thank you for your concern, and
 welcome back to the New World Order of Sir George,
 who jailed Lyn and 6 others (now all free on parole,
 I'm happy to say !-)

 thus quoth:
  The LaRouche Movement: American 'fascism' or something
  else?
  by Steve Mizrach

 [FLUSH]

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto (sik): fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
     Introduction: An American Caligula? (47K)
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
     26 -- Epilog: SHAG ME WITH A SPOON, AUSTIN POWERS? (0K)
 * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
 bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
 to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
 in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.  Things that make ygo,
 Hm; hm?  Merged with Internet Time,
 our lordships have provided a year-zero, 2000 CCE (whereby,
 1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:21:33 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Brian Hutchings
<r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings
> 21-DEC-2000  4:07
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  oy heil, Dickwad!
>     seriously,
>  that was pure gahbaj, from the usual sources,
>  such *as* the ADL (which is not a membership
> organization, although
>  B'nai B'rith is, of course, being a freemasonic
> lodge --
>  "we don't get our hands dirty with that masonry
> stuff!" -- that is
>  to say, it is not a Jewish organization per se,
>  it just cultivates them.  if you want to get into
> the bloody history
>  of the B'nai B'rith fellow-travellers in the Young
> America/Israel/etc.
>  movement, you have only to look at the publications
>  of *La Jeune Turque*, about the time of the
> Armenian genocide).
>     butt, thank you for your concern, and
>  welcome back to the New World Order of Sir George,
>  who jailed Lyn and 6 others (now all free on
> parole,
>  I'm happy to say !-)
>

Okay, but my question(in all seriousness) is- What
brings you to these two men, LL and RB? It must have
something to do with geometry, since both are about
that in part. Or is it a utopian vision or close to
that? To you, how do they fit together?

Dickwad?
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:38:36 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: My strategy
In-Reply-To:  <200012211154.eBLBsUG02072@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

> (his and Kepler's and Pascal's and Fermat's calculators were, all,
> using base-ten, of course, I think .-)

Computers are a natural segue to the topic of bases of course,
being binary-based (most of 'em).  A recent book on number theory,
'Number' by Midhat J. Gazale appropriately includes information
about circuit design, adders in particular, plus lots on mixed
base numbers.

I used this book, among other sources, when coming up with
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/numeracy2.html in particular
(Fermat and Euler tests for primes, Carmichael numbers and so
on -- easily within range of a high schooler IF computers
and big numbers get used to make this fun and hands-on).

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 05:57:13 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            21-DEC-2000  5:57
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I am *so* glad that you asked, Herr Dick!
    see the latest *21st C.Science and Technology*,
 which has a great update on the Moon model of the atom,
 wholly & purely geometrical but based upon the experiments,
 now with a rough tratment of the neutrons included,
 by Laurence Hecht (one of the released prisoners o'Bush).
    there's also a great refutaion of the silly idea that
 Von Neumann invented the serial computer (of course,
 it was Babbage and Ada Byron that worked-out the nuts-and-bolts .-)
    "utopian" might be what we consider to be the problem, although
 we tend to like the ideas of Thomas Moore, because
 most of the utopian ideals spring forth
 from the idealists of one-world government,
 which seems to include Busky's "speculative historical" stuff
 that seems to come from Arnold Toynbee,
 he of the Austin Powers school of British Goodguy Intelligence
 (British and goodness are basically counterposed,
 in most of history that I am aware of,
 with a few, fairlt short episodes of republican English renaissance
 -- English, as in Shakespeare, not British, as in Empire !-)

 what brought me to Bucky was partly proximity,
 after the fact of his death, and a bicycle-car interaction,
 which gave me some time to think about what I'd just started to read
 (_S_).  what brought me to Lyn was that I was in Massachussetts,
 at about the time of the first federal trial in Boston,
 which was a mistrial against the government (it should have ended,
 there, with "Governor Fish" and his ealier career
 in the DoJ, as the jury was polled by the paper,
 to be unanimous that they'd have acquited on all counts,
 based upon goment monkey-business.  I was basically a political virgin,
 but it made me shed my Dymaxion Chastity-belt,
 in quite a hurry to get it on with the powers-that-think-they-are.

 by the way, where did you get that **** that posed as journalism?...
 really, some folks will do any thing for money,
 including plagiarizing other people's fictional BS (probably,
 here, Larry King's _LL and the New American Fascism_,
 judging from the title).
    we just published a book from the just-last-released prisoner,
 Billington, which you could get;
 the stuff on China vs. the Opium (free-trade/British/world) Empire,
 up til this very day, will simply blow you away.

 thus quoth:
  brings you to these two men, LL and RB? It must have
  something to do with geometry, since both are about
  that in part. Or is it a utopian vision or close to
  that? To you, how do they fit together?

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
     Introduction: An American Caligula (47K)
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
     Epilog: Shag Me with a Spoon, Austin Powers? (0K)
 * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
 bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
 to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
 in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.
 Things that make ygo, Hm;
 hm?  Merged with Internet Time, say,
 our lordships have provided a Year Zero, 2000 Cce (whereby,
 1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 06:16:36 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Nature magazine Nov 2,2000

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            21-DEC-2000  6:16
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 all things being equal, although not so,
 why should they become less efficient;
 just because they can?
    so, they can, but *what* is more or less efficient?
    how about the systems of enzymes,
 all of which have specific mineral requirements,
 from the soil?

 in some of the earliest studies of the ice ages
 (the Quatenary Period, although "Pleistocene" is still often used,
 with little regard for there being "one big ice age" or not)
 were done in palynology, using pollen.
    from that, a Swedish resaercher coined the phrase,
 retrogressive vegetational succession,
 which was found to lead up to the then-known glacial phases
 (i.e. from the Eemian interglacial period,
 the one before the current, "holocene" one -- if it still exists .-)

 by the way, one of the best palynology studies was done
 in the late 70s by Genevieve Woillard in Grand Pile, France,
 pulbished in *Nature* about 1981,
 "Abrupt end of the Eemian interglacial *sensu strictu*."

 thus quoth:
  Increasing CO2 levels causes a shift toward more carbon inefficient
 species.
  (In the rain forest, trees are already dying faster and being partially
  replaced by lianas-- vines.) At least locally, the more carbon
 inefficient
  species burn better. We in the West and desert areas in particular
 (unlike
  prairie people) do not see fires as a good method of maintaining current
  species diversity.

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
     Introduction: An American Caligula (47K)
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
     Epilog: Shag Me with a Spoon, Austin Powers? (0K)
 * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
 bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
 to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
 in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.
 Things that make ygo, Hm;
 hm?  Merged with Internet Time, say,
 our lordships have provided a Year Zero, 2000 Cce (whereby,
 1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:24:11 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Mark Siegmund <siegmund@THEGRID.NET>
Subject:      Jaipur Peace Foundation International Meeting
Comments: To: Tetworld <Tetworld@listbot.com>,
          Tetglobal <tetglobal@listbot.com>, Peace <pec@csd.uwm.edu>,
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Dear Mark,=20
Jaipur Peace Foundation is organising an international meet on CULTURE OF
PEACE on dec.27-29,2001 at jaipur,India.The next issue of journal is devote=
d
to the same theme.I request you kindly to ciculate this information  to
multiple receipents of list as well as in your journal.
My c.v. is also attached herewith for your perusal.
With Regards=20
Naresh Dadhich=20

Mark Siegmund wrote:
Hi, Season's Greetings and Wishes for a Stellar 20001!

For those on this list who have contributed articles for Vol. 16, No.1 of
The International Journal of Humanities and Peace (IJHP)--it is at the
printer--and we will begin sending out complimentary author's copies in the
next week or so.=20

If you have submitted an article for this issue, kindly send me your curren=
t
mailing address.=20

Also, we are now accepting submissions for Vol. 17, No. 1, 2001. The
general topic/theme, will again be "The Culture of Peace".

For submission guidelines, please visit our webpage at:
http://netword.com/*ijhp

Many thanks and much appreciation to those of you who have been published i=
n
this volume, and/or previous volumes.  It is your work that makes IJHP the
leader in its field.

Cheers,=20
Mark Siegmund=20
Associate Editor




CURRICULUM   VITAE



1. NAME         Dr . NARESH DADHICH
2.DATE OF BIRTH           19.09.1956
3 MAILING  ADDRESS    2 K 12 , JAWAHAR NAGAR,
            JAIPUR  302  004  (INDIA)
                                  phone :091-141-652846
                                   fax:     091-141-654506
                                   email: ndadhich@jp1.dot.net.in
4. PRESENT POSITION    Associate Professor
            Deptt. of Pol. Sc.
            University of Rajasthan
            Jaipur
5. ACADEMIC RECORD
            Higher Secondary - First division , 1972 ;
            Graduation - First Division , 1975 ;
            Post Graduation (Political Science ) First Division 1977;
            M.Phill. (Political Science) 1979;
            Ph.D. ( Political Science ) 1989.
6. AWARD & FELLOWSHIP
            a. Shri Gopinath Agrawal Gold Medal in B.Sc. 1975
            b. ICSSR Research fellowship for Ph.D. 1977-78.
7. TEACHING EXPERIENCE
22 Years
assistant professor(1978-1991)
associate professor(1991-continuing)
Post -Graduation teaching from 9th November 1978 =ADstill continuing in the
department of Political Science,University  of  Rajasthan , Jaipur .
8. RESEARCH EXPERIENCE
            a. M. Phil (Post M.A.) Dissertation in " Gandhism and
Existentialism : A=20
Study of Major aspects . "
            b. Ph.D.     Thesis on " M.K. Gandhi : A study in the context o=
f
Existentialist=20
Syndrome " .=20
c.PROJECTCommunalism in India : The Gandhian Alternative " ( 1986 =AD
1988 ) .=20
            d.SUPERVISOR Guided 40 M.Phil. dissertations and 8 Ph.D.s on
different=20
aspects of Gandhi , Indian thought and Indian politics
e.Examiner of MPhil. dissertations and Ph.D. theses of Delhi
University,Benaras Hindu University,Varanasi,Vikram University,Ujjain,MDS
university,Ajmer.
9.VISITING FACAULTY
                                           -Deptt.of political
science,Vikram University,Ujjain
                                           -Deptt. of political
science,H.S.Gaur University,Sagar
                                           -Deptt. of political
science,Kurukshetra University,Kurukshetra.
                                           -Deptt.of political
science,JNVyas University,Jodhpur.
                                           -Deptt. of political science,MDS
University,Ajmer.
                                           -Deptt.of peace studies,Gujarat
Vidyapeeth,Ahmedabad
                                           -Indira Gandhi Open
University,Jaipur Centre
                                            -HCM Institute,Jaipur
10.ADMINISTRATION
                                           -Director,Centre for Gandhian
Studies,University of Rajasthan,jaipur. 1996-
2000   =20
-Local Head,deptt.of political science,Maharani College,jaipur.1995-98
                          -Assistant Director,Centre for Gandhian
Studies,University of Rajasthan,jaipur
                                            1989-92,93-94.

 11 .TRAVEL
                                        -Netherlands(1998),South
Africa(1998)      =20
12 PRESENTATIONS,  LECTURES
1989   =20
' Post - Behavioural Pol.Sc. : A Gandhian Perspective ' 46th All India
Pol.Sc. Conference. Fergusson College, Pune, India Nov. 3-5,
                                      1990
=B9 i) Gandhian Leisure : A Fresh Look =8C
ii) `Work Economy Leisure : An Indian Perspective `
World Congress of International Sociological Association . Madrid , Spain
July 9-13 , 1990.(distance presentation)
1993
Three days lectures on =B3Contemporary debate in Liberalism and Gandhi=B2 at
Vikram University,Ujjain.
1994
-Three days lectures on =B3Contemporary political theory:After second world
war=B2 at Vikram University,Ujjain
=B3Gandhi and Modernity=B2 paper presented at a seminar on
=B3Contemporary Relevance of Gandhi=B2 organised by GujaratVidyapeeth,Ahmedabad
on oct.2-4,1994.
1995
Three days lectures on =B3Approaches to study Gandhian Thought=B2
at Vikram University,Ujjain.
1996
lecture on =B3Gandhi and Indian Political Tradition=B2 at H.S.Gaur University,
Sagar
1997
-Inaugural address,=B2New Trends In Political Theory=B2 delivered on the
occassion of refresher course of college and university teachers of
political science at Vikram University Ujjain on Feb.13,1997.
-=B3Gandhian Model of Political Power:An Urgent Need for
Application.=B2(distance presentation) at Seoul,South Korea in 17th
IPSA,RC36.1,aug.17-21,1997.
-lecture on =B3Gandhi and Scientific Value Relativism=B2 at MDS University,Ajme=
r
1998
-=B3Gandhi and Moral Civilization=B2 paper presented at a seminar on =B3Gandhi an=
d
Kant=B2organised by Max Mueller Bhavan and Gandhi Peace Foundation at New
Delhi,on jan.23-24,1998.

-Power and Ethical Infrastructure : Gandhian View" presented at IPSA, RC36
Round Table , May15-18, 1998 at University of Niemegen, Netherland.
-"Gandhian Theory of Non-Violent Conflict Resolution" presented in the
Non-Violence Commission at 17th Confefrence of IPRA , University of Durban =
,
South Africa , 23rd -26th June , 1998.
1999
-=B3Human Rights in India:A Gandhian Perspective=B2paper presented at a seminar
on =B3Protection of Human Rights in India=B2at Kumaon University,Nainital,march
6-8,1999.
-lecture on =B3Gandhian Studies In India=B2 at  JNVyas University,Jodhpur.
-lecture on =B3Theory  of Oceanic Circles in Gandhian Thought=B2 at MDS
University,Ajmer.
-Three days lecture series on =B3Contemporary Political Theory
                               and Gandhi=B2 at Vikram University,Ujjain in
dec.1999
                              2000
 -=B3Gandhian Studies as popular literature=B2 a paper presentad at a two day
meeting of Gandhian Scholars organised by International Centre of Gandhian
Studies and Research at New Delhi.
-lecture on =B3Contemporary Hinduism:Some Reflections=B2 delivered at a
course organised by Institute of Rajasthan Studies for European students at
jaipur ,july,2000.
-lecture on =B3Popular Hinduism:An Introduction=B2 delivered at a course
organised by Institute of Rajasthan Studies for European students at
jaipur,sept.2000
-Two days lecture series on =B3Contemporary political theory:New Trends=B2 at
JNVyas University,Jodhpur on dec.8-9,2000.
_Two days lecture series on =B3John Rawls:A theory of Liberalism?=B2
   at MDS University,Ajmer on dec.11-12,2000.
13. MEMBERSHIP=20
        (a) Indian Institute of Public Administration,New Delhi .
        (b) Indian Society for Gandhian Studies .
        (c) International Peace Research Association, Japan.
        (d) International Peace Bureau, Geneva
                             (e)Jaipur Peace Foundation,Jaipur
14.CONFERENCES ORGANISED
                             1990 - Organised a Seminar on " Democracy ,
Communal Harmony & Nation
              Building in India ( Gandhian Perspective ) " 28-30 Jan. 1990
at Centre for=20
              Gandhian Studies , University of Rajasthan , Jaipur .
        1997-Organised a National Seminar on "Mahatma Gandhi and Our Times"
27-28=20
March 1997 at the Centre for Gandhian Studies, University  of Rajasthan ,
Jaipur.
        1999-Organised a National Seminar on "Mahatma Gandhi and Youth"
23-24 March=20
1999 at the  Centre for Gandhian Studies, University  of Rajasthan , Jaipur=
.
        2000-Organised an International Seminar on "Sustainable Peace in
Unipolar World :=20
The  Strategic Context of South Asia ( March 23-25, 2000)" at Centre for
Gandhian Studies, University of Rajasthan , Jaipur.
intended 2001-Planning to organise an international meet on CULTURE OF PEAC=
E
on dec.27-29,2001
15.PUBLICATIONS
        (a) Articles :
        (i) " Centre - State Relations : Legal and Administrative " in C. M=
.
singh et al (ed) " State
Administration in Rajasthan " ( in Hindi) (Jaipur , Indian Society for
Publication Affairs, 1985 )
(ii) " Caste-Class Interaction in Indian Politics " in Ishwar Modi (ed)
Emerging trends  in Indian Sociology Vol. I ( Jaipur Publication, 1986),
146-163.=20
(iii)     'Existentialism : Major Coneptual Concerns ' in Political Science
Review , vol . 26 No. 1-4 Jan-Dec. 1987, 93-115.
(iv) " Existentialists influence on Contempory art of Rajasthani Painters "
in R.BGautam(ed.) "Contemporary art of Rajasthan "     (Jaipur, Rajasthan
Lalit Kala Academy , 1989) .
(v) " Gandhian Critique of Modern Civilization" in Indian Journal of
Politics , vol. XXV No. 4 , 1991, 76-85.
(vi)"Peace Education : " Towards Its Implementation in the Third World " in
Prof. Nanubhai Joshi (ed) " Global Peace and Development " South Gujarat
University Publication, Surat , 1992
(vii)     Samajik Nyaya ki Avdharana ( in Hindi ) in Rajya Shastra
Sameeksha,  vol 23, No. 1-2, Jan-Dec 1993, 27-40.
Thoreau's Protest : A Means to Maintain the Ontological Essence of  Man in
Gandhi Marg, vol.15, No. 3, Oct.-Dec.1993, 308-22.
(viii)    Jati , Dharma Aur Samaj ( in Hindi ) in Rajya Shastra Sameeksha
,vol 24, No. 1-2, Jan-Dec 1994, 40-74.
(x) Technology : Axiological Implementation for Dasein and Change in
Political Science Review, vol.33, No. 1-4, Jan.-Dec.1994, 12-    18.
(xi) Forms of Satyagraha : The Gandhian View in Indian Journal of Politics,
vol. 28, No.3-4, 1994, 83-99.
(xii) "Satyagraha : The Gandhian theory of protest in Political Science
Annual 1994-95, ed. by Subrota Mukherjee & S. Ramaswamy, Deep & Deep
Publication, New Delhi , 1995, 33-49.
(xiii) Emerging Indices of Satyagraha in South Africa : A study of Gandhi's
Neuristic Enterprises in Political Science Annual , 1996, ed. by Subrota
Mukherjee & S. Ramaswamy, Deep & Deep Publication, New Delhi , 1996, 96-121=
.
(xiv) Gandhian Theory of Conflict - Resolution in Gandhian Studies,
July-Dec. 1996, 46-     65.
        (xv) Gandhi and Morality in Gandhian Studies, July-Dec. 1997, 59-64=
.
(xvi) Gandhi and Moral Civilization in Human Values & Social Change ed. by
Ishwar Modi, Rawat Publications,Jaipur. 2000. 402-407.
         (b) Books :
        (i) " Gandhi and Existentialism " Rawat Publications , Jaipur ,
1993.
       =20

        (d) Book Reviews :
        1. B.N.Ganguly's " Emma Goldman " in Political Change , vol.II No.2=
,
July-Dec.1979, 129-130.
2. B.K.Sharma 's " Peasant Movement's in Rajasthan " in Political Science
Review, Vol.27, No. 1-4, Jan.-Dec. 1988, 220-221.
3. Subrota Mukherjee's " Essays in Marxist Theory & Practice" in Political
Science Review, vol.29, Nos.1-4, Jan.-Dec. 1990, 180-181.
4.V.T. Patil's New Dimensions and Prospectives in Gandhian in Gandhi Marg
vol.15, No.2, July-Sept.1993, 228-29.
5. Manmohan Choudhary & Ramji Singh ed. Mahatma Gandhi 125 years, in Gandhi
Marg, vol.18, No.1, April - June1996, 120-122.
6. Sushila Nayar's Mahatma Gandhi's Last imprisonment, in Gandhian Studies,
July - Dec. 1996, 106-107.
7. Roger S. Powers and William B. Vogele, ed. " Protest, Power and Change "
in Gandhi Marg vol.19, No.1, April-June 1997, 121-124.
        8. Bhikhu Parekh's Gandhi's legacy in Gandhian Studies July-Dec.
1998-99.
(e) Editing Journals & Books
1978-80
 Review Editor, POLITICAL CHANGE,Institute of Correspondence
Studies,University of Rajasthan, Jaipur.
1996-2000
 Founder Editor,GANDHIAN STUDIES,a biannual journal of the Centre for
Gandhian Studies,University of Rajasthan, Jaipur
1997-2000
Member,Editorial Board,POLITICAL SCIENCE REVIEW,a quarterly journal of
deptt. of political science,University of  Rajasthan, Jaipur.
1999
Series Editor,RAWAT ideas and Thinkers in Social Sciences, a project
launched by Rawat Publishers,Jaipur.Two books entitled John Rawls and Harol=
d
Laski have been published so far.
-2000-continuing     Founder Editor,SHANTI: A JOURNAL OF PEACE STUDIES, a
biannual journal of Jaipur Peace Foundation
(f)Citation
My work Gandhi and Existentialism  is cited  as one of the major text of a
school of interpretation of Gandhian Thought along with books of Raghavan
Iyer,Thomas Pantham,Bhikhu Parekh, Dennis Dalton and V.R.Mehta in
GANDHI:STRUGGLING FOR AUTONOMY by Prof. Ronald Terchek,.Terchek=B9s book is
published by Rowman&Littlefield Publishers,Lanham Maryland,1998.An indian
edition is published by Sage Publications,New Delhi,2000.Citation at
p.n.15,219,223.
16.WORK IN PROGRESS
                                (a)Editing a book  GANDHI : SOME ESSAYS
                             (b) working on a book tentatively titled
DECONSTRUCTING GANDHI
17.COMMUNITY SERVICE
(a)member of Indian Thinkers Association active in   disscussing current
Indian socio-political problems.
(b)Participation in local T.V. programmes as comperer, expert
(c)Columnist and occassional write =AD up in local Hindi newspapers.
(d)Founder-Secretary of non-profit charitable trust named JAIPUR PEACE
FOUNDATION engaged in  organising workshops,short courses,lectures on the
themes of Peace, Gandhian Thought,Religion,Meditation .Publishing an englis=
h
biannual journal and bimonthly hindi newsletter.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:02:53 -0800
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From:         Mark Siegmund <siegmund@THEGRID.NET>
Subject:      More on International Journal of Humanities and Peace
Comments: To: Tetworld <Tetworld@listbot.com>,
          Tetglobal <tetglobal@listbot.com>,
          Ecol-Econ <ecol-econ@csf.colorado.edu>,
          Envtecsoc <envtecsoc@csf.colorado.edu>, Peace <pec@csd.uwm.edu>,
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THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF HUMANITIES AND PEACE (IJHP) ANNUAL is a
non-profit, educational, voluntary and tax deductible ( for US donations)
organization. It is dedicated to the pursuit of excellence in
Humanities-Education-Peace, and a global vision and universal understanding
among ethnic and culturally diverse groups, nationally and internationally.

Our Journal is dedicated to Peace Through Development.

It reaches a cross-section of people in education, business, industry, law,
medicine, and those interested in Peace Through Development--including
leaders in politics and administration, Heads of State, Congressmen,
Senators, and a number of persons and institutions around the world.

IJHP also presents issues and views on current topics from a variety of
perspectives, and invites your reviews, articles and short reports on Peace
activities--including your research and focus on international and/or Cross
Cultural issues relating to peace, disarmament, negotiation, development,
women, children, youth, families, shelter, health, education, environment,
impact of social change, synergy, synthesis, transformation, and other
pertinent topics.

Each issue is about 100 pages.

Subscription rates: Individual (US) $25, Other Countries $30US
Libraries/Institutions (US) $36--Other countries $42.50US (all international
subscriptions in US currency only)

Please include name, address, email (if available), and areas of specialty.
Enclose your check or international money order (U.S. currency only) to:
IJHP, 1436 N. Evergreen Dr., Flagstaff, Arizona 86001 USA

IJHP is voluntary, educational and non-profit and tax-deductible.

All donations are welcome!

IJHP website:
http://netword.com/*ijhp

Yours sincerely,
Mark Siegmund
Associate Editor
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 11:22:06 -0800
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Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Mark Siegmund <siegmund@THEGRID.NET>
Subject:      The full IJHP theme for 2001
Comments: To: Tetglobal <tetglobal@listbot.com>,
          Tetworld <Tetworld@listbot.com>, Peace <pec@csd.uwm.edu>,
          Ecol-Econ <ecol-econ@csf.colorado.edu>,
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Hello,

Here is the complete general theme for IJHP (The International Journal of
Humanities and Peace), Vol. 17, No.1, 2001

Culture of Peace:  Dialogues between Civilizations

Articles/papers on themes, generally, comprise about 40% of each issue (or
about 40 of approximately 100 pages).

IJHP webpage:
http://members.tripod.com/~Tetworld/ijhp1.html

Thanks,
Mark Siegmund
Associate Editor
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 12:11:32 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            21-DEC-2000 12:11
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 well, hey -- the *21st C* magazine, ne Fusion but started
 under a new name due to the "constructive fraud
 upon the Court" of the ch.13 bankruptcy, makes a great gift
 for the fundamentalist LaRouche-hater in your family (coz
 it'll take'em a while to configure that fact, unless
 s/he looks at the masthead .-)
    for those who are more artistically inclined,
 go for *Fidelio* (ne Campaigner), the journal of poetry, art and
 statecraft (a $100 gets membership for a year
 to Shciller Inst, which includes Fidelio and the weekly paper,
 New Federalist (ne New Solidarity, as still known
 in other countries' publications).
    or get Billington's book for an overview of the movement,
 with the appendices on classical Chinese culture and
 20th cnetury imperialism, both of which are unique,
 basically, to us.  the title is pressently an anachronism
 --although you cannot tell with a Bush imperium looming--
 _Reflections of an American Political Prisoner" -- ba-doomp!...
 if you really wish to go whole-hog,
 maybe blowing your credit cards before the bust
 -- no bilking of old ladies or gentlemen, though --
 you can order the entire library
 from the New Benjamin Franklin Publishing House,
 which'd go along ways toward furnishing a bunker
 for the survivial of civilization; so, dump a load!

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto (sik): fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
     Introduction: An American Caligula (47K)
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
     Epilog: Shag US with a Spoon, Austin Powers?  (0K)
 * In April, with the fanfare of a "beyond petroleum" campaign,
 bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
 to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
 in May, the price of "petrol" almost doubled.
 Things that make y'go, Hm;
 hm?...  Merged with Internet Time,
 our lordships have provided a Year Zero, 2000 Cce (whereby,
 1999 becometh 1bbp - or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:21:25 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: central angles
Comments: To: Michael Schneider <geoman@pb.net>
Comments: cc: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
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Michael,

I think I've seen this info somewhere in a book, but I just can't =
remember where.  In the meantime, while I'm thinking about it, I'm going =
to forward this reply to several lists that have members who might be =
able to help you.

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Michael Schneider=20
  To: joemoore@cruzio.com=20
  Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 9:51 AM
  Subject: central angles


  hi joe,

  i've enjoyed your site for a long time.
  i'm trying to put together a list of the precise central angles of the =
5 platonic solids, but only come across approximations.
  can you point me to such a table, or a formula?
  i'm actually trying to find geometric constructions which produce =
them.

  thanks very much.

  michael schneider

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C06B93.F972F8C0
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type =
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4207.2601" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2>Michael,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>I think I've seen =
this info=20
somewhere in a book, but I just can't remember where.&nbsp; In the =
meantime,=20
while I'm thinking about it, I'm going to forward this reply to several =
lists=20
that have members who might be able to help you.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT></STRONG><BR>Joe S=20
Moore: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com">joemoore@cruzio.com</A><BR>Buckminste=
r Fuller=20
Virtual Institute: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/">http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore=
/</A></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dgeoman@pb.net href=3D"mailto:geoman@pb.net">Michael =
Schneider</A>=20
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Djoemoore@cruzio.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com">joemoore@cruzio.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 20, =
2000 9:51=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> central angles</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>hi joe,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>i've enjoyed your site for a long=20
  time.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>i'm trying to put together a list =
of the=20
  precise central angles of the 5 platonic solids, but only come across=20
  approximations.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>can you point me to such a table, =
or a=20
  formula?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>i'm actually trying to find =
geometric=20
  constructions which produce them.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>thanks very much.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>michael=20
schneider</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C06B93.F972F8C0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:09:48 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>  by the way, where did you get that **** that posed
> as journalism?...
>  really, some folks will do any thing for money,
>  including plagiarizing other people's fictional BS
> (probably,
>  here, Larry King's _LL and the New American
> Fascism_,
>  judging from the title).

I searched Google.  When I saw that LL had a book
'Christian Economics' or close to that, I wondered if
he was a fundementalist or something. I don't care for
literal interpertations of anything really. I don't
get much about what he is up to, but anyone jailed by
GHWB is OK in my book, though.

Dick
Kids are innocent.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 21:16:56 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: More on International Journal of Humanities and Peace
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> Our Journal is dedicated to Peace Through
> Development.
>

Is that like peace through ARiTFACT?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:57:33 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dave Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Subject:      Re: central angles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C06BED.2018EEE0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Central angles can be calculated easily from knowing just a few points =
in the structure and some facts about triangles... check out =
http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/radial/=20

- Dave
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Joe S Moore=20
  Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
  To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU=20
  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 12:27 AM
  Subject: Re: central angles


  Michael,
  =20
  I think I've seen this info somewhere in a book, but I just can't =
remember where.  In the meantime, while I'm thinking about it, I'm going =
to forward this reply to several lists that have members who might be =
able to help you.

  Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
  Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: Michael Schneider=20
    To: joemoore@cruzio.com=20
    Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 9:51 AM
    Subject: central angles


    hi joe,
    =20
    i've enjoyed your site for a long time.
    i'm trying to put together a list of the precise central angles of =
the 5 platonic solids, but only come across approximations.
    can you point me to such a table, or a formula?
    i'm actually trying to find geometric constructions which produce =
them.
    =20
    thanks very much.
    =20
    michael schneider

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        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Central angles can be calculated easily =
from=20
knowing just a few points in the structure and some facts about =
triangles...=20
check out <A=20
href=3D"http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/radial/">http://w3.one.net/~m=
onkey/geodesics/radial/</A>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>- Dave</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:joemoore@CRUZIO.COM" title=3Djoemoore@CRUZIO.COM>Joe =
S Moore</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Newsgroups:</B> =
bit.listserv.geodesic</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU"=20
  =
title=3DGEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO=
.EDU</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 22, 2000 =
12:27=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: central =
angles</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D2>Michael,</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2>I think I've seen =
this info=20
  somewhere in a book, but I just can't remember where.&nbsp; In the =
meantime,=20
  while I'm thinking about it, I'm going to forward this reply to =
several lists=20
  that have members who might be able to help you.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
  <DIV><STRONG><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D2></FONT></STRONG><BR>Joe S=20
  Moore: <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com">joemoore@cruzio.com</A><BR>Buckminste=
r=20
  Fuller Virtual Institute: <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/">http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore=
/</A></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A href=3D"mailto:geoman@pb.net" title=3Dgeoman@pb.net>Michael =
Schneider</A>=20
    </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com"=20
    title=3Djoemoore@cruzio.com>joemoore@cruzio.com</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 20, =
2000 9:51=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> central angles</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>hi joe,</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>i've enjoyed your site for a =
long=20
    time.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>i'm trying to put together a =
list of the=20
    precise central angles of the 5 platonic solids, but only come =
across=20
    approximations.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>can you point me to such a =
table, or a=20
    formula?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>i'm actually trying to find =
geometric=20
    constructions which produce them.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>thanks very much.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>michael=20
schneider</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C06BED.2018EEE0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 15:04:48 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM>
Subject:      Merry Christmas
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain

The Perfect Christmas gift:

http://environmentalvalving.cjb.net <http://environmentalvalving.cjb.net>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 13:49:42 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      central angles
Comments: To: geoman@pb.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi Michael --

Analysis of the A,B and T modules will provide all these
central angles.

For example, here's Bucky's picture of the regular tetrahedron
exploded into 24 A mods:

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s09/figs/f86421.html

The central angle for the tet would be 2 * angle DEC in
that picture.  Approximate degree measures are give, but
also edge lengths with surds, allowing arbitrary precision.

Central angle of the regular tet is acos(-1/3) by the way.

The cube may be analyzed in terms of half-couplers (octahedron
has central angles of 90 degrees).

The icosahedron is made from golden rectangles, which
means you can compute central angles by drawing a
rectangle 1 x phi and criss-crossing.  See animated GIF
at http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/numeracy1.html i.e.
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/graphics/phirectanim.gif

Fuller's T-module has enough info to derive the central
angles for the 5-fold family (connected to the 3,4-fold
by means of the jitterbug transformation).

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 16:55:46 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Chuck Kessler <ChuckKessler@MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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The socialists on the west coast are getting what they deserve, thanks to=
 their environmental extremist buddies.



----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Fischbeck
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 1:40 AM
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition


>  by the way, where did you get that **** that posed
> as journalism?...
>  really, some folks will do any thing for money,
>  including plagiarizing other people's fictional BS
> (probably,
>  here, Larry King's _LL and the New American
> Fascism_,
>  judging from the title).

I searched Google.  When I saw that LL had a book
'Christian Economics' or close to that, I wondered if
he was a fundementalist or something. I don't care for
literal interpertations of anything really. I don't
get much about what he is up to, but anyone jailed by
GHWB is OK in my book, though.

Dick
Kids are innocent.<br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explo=
rer at <a href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br=
></p>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>The socialists=
 on the west coast are getting what they deserve, thanks to their environ=
mental extremist buddies.<BR></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"=
PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #00=
0000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">-----=
 Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10=
pt Arial; FONT-COLOR: black"><B>From:</B>&nbsp;Dick Fischbeck</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B>&nbsp;Friday, December 22, 2000 1:=
40 AM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>&nbsp;GEODESIC@LIST=
SERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</=
B>&nbsp;Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV=
>&gt;&nbsp; by the way, where did you get that **** that posed<BR>&gt; as=
 journalism?...<BR>&gt;&nbsp; really, some folks will do any thing for mo=
ney,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; including plagiarizing other people's fictional BS<BR>=
&gt; (probably,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; here, Larry King's _LL and the New American=
<BR>&gt; Fascism_,<BR>&gt;&nbsp; judging from the title).<BR><BR>I search=
ed Google.&nbsp; When I saw that LL had a book<BR>'Christian Economics' o=
r close to that, I wondered if<BR>he was a fundementalist or something. I=
 don't care for<BR>literal interpertations of anything really. I don't<BR=
>get much about what he is up to, but anyone jailed by<BR>GHWB is OK in m=
y book, though.<BR><BR>Dick<BR>Kids are innocent.<BR><BR> <DIV></DIV></BL=
OCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><DIV><BR><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE downloa=
d of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.=
msn.com</a><br></p></DIV>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 07:58:07 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: central angles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            22-DEC-2000  7:58
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I've always got a problem with "central" angles, since
 the center is not "operational" to a spinning system,
 along with teh radius (it's the poles and the diameter .-)
    that said, it depends upon what you mean by construction.
 you'd have to construct the Bucky-modules in order
 to "get" the central angles, although you may get them just fine,
 mentally.  since all of the facets of the platonic and archimedean shapes
 have no more than 12 sides (and no odd numbers past 5),
 they can all be constructed on paper, with compasses or by folding,
 the most difficult (but still easy) being the pentagon (decagon)
 for that phi-fold realtion.
    as Kirby also noted,
 the agnles can be put in rational terms with trig,
 acos(-1/3), although I prefer the atan(whatever),
 which denots the simple rational constructions more directly.

 on the wayside,
 the subject of "dialogue between civilizations" is really all there
 in that between China (the East) and the USA (the West)
 in Billington's appendices -- the just-freed political prisoner
 of Sir George has come out with fingers nimbling!

 --The New World Order!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 08:53:54 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: central angles

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            22-DEC-2000  8:53
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 the following that the vertices are all on the same sphere,
 that is a circumscribing sphere of hte shape (as opposed
 to one that touches the facets or the edges) -- assumes!...
 also, the diagram has c=chordlength and
 alpha= (two equal angles between imagined radii and chord),
 meaning to compliment of the agnle that you'd have,
 to, say, cut off your 2x4 end, to fit it to the adjacent strut/s.

 thus quoth:
  Given the radius and chord length between vertices, we have an isoceles
 triangle; the distance between the vertices is the base, the distances
 between each vertex and the center is the radius. We can find the angle
 easily using the law of cosines:



 This angle is the same at each vertex of the chord, of course, in
 accordance with the nature of the isoceles triangle.

 http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/radial/

   --The New World Order!
   http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:06:54 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            22-DEC-2000  9:06
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 you could say that Bucky led me to Lyn, but
 not really explicitly.
    after my accident, I recieved the larger part
 of a $100,000 settlement, some time after coming out
 of a coma.  I went on an expedition to Vermont
 to build a concrete, underground dome-home,
 which ended in abject failure, perhaps in part
 due to the de-novo "appropriate technology" flavor
 of the attempt.
    then, I spent about 2 years in Massachussetts,
 outside of Worcester, where the little one-room library was one
 of those that was getting the publications (Fusion and
 EIR, our weekly newsmag, which is awfully heady stuff,
 combined), around the time of the first witch-hunt trial
 in Boston (the mistrial).
    that was basically what ended my life as a green
 -- before their was a party-of-a-color -- and
 my flirtation with "autonomous living" and alternative agriculture
 (although I do think has a great application
 to "life on Moon/Mars?where-go-you .-)
    as I've said, although superimportant architecturally,
 the dome is not the be-all and end-all of livingry, or housingry,
 at any rate, in civilization -- "Dome, dome on the range,"
 but get ine in space, f'sure!

   --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
   The Three Phases of Exploitation
   of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
   bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
       http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial
 contents):
       Introduction: An American Caligula (47K)
        8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
       17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
       18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
       19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
       20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
       21 -- OMAHA (25K)
       22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
       23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
       24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
       25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
       Epilog: Shag Me with a Spoon, Austin Powers? (0K)
   * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
   bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
   to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
   in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.
   Things that make ygo, Hm;
   hm?  Merged with Internet Time, say,
   our lordships have provided a Year Zero, 2000 Cce (whereby,
   1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 09:09:37 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            22-DEC-2000  9:09
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 by the way,
 you can get to all of the other pubs sites
 from http://www.larouchepub.com/
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:10:36 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Chuck Kessler <chuckkessler@MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: central angles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

test,test
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Hutchings" <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: central angles


> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            22-DEC-2000  7:58
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  I've always got a problem with "central" angles, since
>  the center is not "operational" to a spinning system,
>  along with teh radius (it's the poles and the diameter .-)
>     that said, it depends upon what you mean by construction.
>  you'd have to construct the Bucky-modules in order
>  to "get" the central angles, although you may get them just fine,
>  mentally.  since all of the facets of the platonic and archimedean shapes
>  have no more than 12 sides (and no odd numbers past 5),
>  they can all be constructed on paper, with compasses or by folding,
>  the most difficult (but still easy) being the pentagon (decagon)
>  for that phi-fold realtion.
>     as Kirby also noted,
>  the agnles can be put in rational terms with trig,
>  acos(-1/3), although I prefer the atan(whatever),
>  which denots the simple rational constructions more directly.
>
>  on the wayside,
>  the subject of "dialogue between civilizations" is really all there
>  in that between China (the East) and the USA (the West)
>  in Billington's appendices -- the just-freed political prisoner
>  of Sir George has come out with fingers nimbling!
>
>  --The New World Order!
>  http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:11:48 -0500
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From:         Chuck Kessler <chuckkessler@MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition
MIME-Version: 1.0
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test
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Hutchings" <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Q-P] Climate Change and Bush transition


> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            22-DEC-2000  9:06
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  you could say that Bucky led me to Lyn, but
>  not really explicitly.
>     after my accident, I recieved the larger part
>  of a $100,000 settlement, some time after coming out
>  of a coma.  I went on an expedition to Vermont
>  to build a concrete, underground dome-home,
>  which ended in abject failure, perhaps in part
>  due to the de-novo "appropriate technology" flavor
>  of the attempt.
>     then, I spent about 2 years in Massachussetts,
>  outside of Worcester, where the little one-room library was one
>  of those that was getting the publications (Fusion and
>  EIR, our weekly newsmag, which is awfully heady stuff,
>  combined), around the time of the first witch-hunt trial
>  in Boston (the mistrial).
>     that was basically what ended my life as a green
>  -- before their was a party-of-a-color -- and
>  my flirtation with "autonomous living" and alternative agriculture
>  (although I do think has a great application
>  to "life on Moon/Mars?where-go-you .-)
>     as I've said, although superimportant architecturally,
>  the dome is not the be-all and end-all of livingry, or housingry,
>  at any rate, in civilization -- "Dome, dome on the range,"
>  but get ine in space, f'sure!
>
>    --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
>    The Three Phases of Exploitation
>    of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
>    bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
>        http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial
>  contents):
>        Introduction: An American Caligula (47K)
>         8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
>        17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
>        18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
>        19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
>        20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
>        21 -- OMAHA (25K)
>        22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
>        23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
>        24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
>        25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
>        Epilog: Shag Me with a Spoon, Austin Powers? (0K)
>    * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
>    bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
>    to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
>    in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.
>    Things that make ygo, Hm;
>    hm?  Merged with Internet Time, say,
>    our lordships have provided a Year Zero, 2000 Cce (whereby,
>    1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:12:02 -0500
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From:         Chuck Kessler <chuckkessler@MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: central angles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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test
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Hutchings" <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2000 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: central angles


> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            22-DEC-2000  8:53
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  the following that the vertices are all on the same sphere,
>  that is a circumscribing sphere of hte shape (as opposed
>  to one that touches the facets or the edges) -- assumes!...
>  also, the diagram has c=chordlength and
>  alpha= (two equal angles between imagined radii and chord),
>  meaning to compliment of the agnle that you'd have,
>  to, say, cut off your 2x4 end, to fit it to the adjacent strut/s.
>
>  thus quoth:
>   Given the radius and chord length between vertices, we have an isoceles
>  triangle; the distance between the vertices is the base, the distances
>  between each vertex and the center is the radius. We can find the angle
>  easily using the law of cosines:
>
>
>
>  This angle is the same at each vertex of the chord, of course, in
>  accordance with the nature of the isoceles triangle.
>
>  http://w3.one.net/~monkey/geodesics/radial/
>
>    --The New World Order!
>    http://www.tarpley.net/bush24.htm
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 22 Dec 2000 23:18:17 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I think these people may be on to something!  They're putting together
close-packed, truncated, rhombic dodecahedra in an octet truss pattern using
various materials.

Charles R. Ownes, inventor
UniStates Technology Corp
Medford, MA, USA

 http://www.unistates.com/rmt/

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Dec 2000 04:03:08 -0500
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From:         dlxx00 <dlxx00@MAIL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Show me the "money"
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Show me the physical evidence that 'love' - or Any emotion Exists.

Can't be done  - only the 'effects' of emotions - but NOT emotions
themselves.

Show me the physical evidence that 'thoughts' or 'ideas' exist - same thing.

Neither 'emotions' or 'thoughts' or 'ideas' are 'physical'.

Think about it.


------Original Message------
From: marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Sent: December 17, 2000 1:54:37 AM GMT
Subject: Show me the "money"


Dexter,

As I point out to the UFO believers. "Show me the money" actually I tell
them to "show me the physical evidence" of the exsistence of alien
visitation. So the same with god. Show me physical evidence of this guy or
gal.


Brian aren't them there US Justices sooooooooooooo clever?  "Show me the
justice".


........................................................
iWon.com       http://www.iwon.com     why wouldn't you?
........................................................
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Dec 2000 03:58:18 -0700
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From:         marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Show me the "money"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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----- Original Message -----
From: "dlxx00" <dlxx00@MAIL.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 2:03 AM
Subject: Re: Show me the "money"


> Show me the physical evidence that 'love' - or Any emotion Exists.
>
> Can't be done  - only the 'effects' of emotions - but NOT emotions
> themselves.
>
> Show me the physical evidence that 'thoughts' or 'ideas' exist - same
thing.
>
> Neither 'emotions' or 'thoughts' or 'ideas' are 'physical'.
>
> Think about it.
>
>
> ------Original Message------
> From: marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Sent: December 17, 2000 1:54:37 AM GMT
> Subject: Show me the "money"
>
>
> Dexter,
>
> As I point out to the UFO believers. "Show me the money" actually I tell
> them to "show me the physical evidence" of the exsistence of alien
> visitation. So the same with god. Show me physical evidence of this guy or
> gal.
>
>
> Brian aren't them there US Justices sooooooooooooo clever?  "Show me the
> justice".
>
>
> ........................................................
> iWon.com       http://www.iwon.com     why wouldn't you?
> ........................................................
>

No problemo ... it's called a PET scan..

Mark
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Dec 2000 10:23:00 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      StarPlate Patent
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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At Delphion Intellectual Property Network:

StarPlate patent
#US 4,384,801 "Junction Plate"
by David O. Hamel
Madison, WI, USA
May 24, 1983

 http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04384801__

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Dec 2000 13:05:06 -0800
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Brazil wants "to break patent" of medicines used to fight AIDS
MIME-Version: 1.0
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Brazil wants "to break patent" of medicines used to fight AIDS

http://www.waytecnet.com/thebraziliantimes-brazil-000614.html#32

Indaiatuba (SP), June 13 - The Minister of Health, José Serra, threatened
yesterday to break the patent of two medicines used in the treatment of AIDS
unless foreign manufacturers reduce their prices. The measure, according to
Serra, would allow Brazilian laboratories to produce the medicines at lower
prices passing on the savings to the consumer.  We cannot be paying an
"unjustifiable" fortune, said Serra.

The two medicines mentioned by the Minister are Nelfinavir and Efavirene,
produced by the North American laboratories Roche and Merc Sharp Dhome,
respectively. Accord to Mr. Serra, of the R$ 617 million that the government
spent in 1999 to purchase medicines for those with the HIV virus, R$ 100
million alone was spent to import the two products from the United States.
Currently, the expenses related to the purchase of medicines for the
cocktail against AIDS should reach R$ 800 million.

In agreement with Serra, the Brazilian government is prepared to face the
adverse reactions that the measure should generate at the laboratories. "If
they don't lower the prices, we won't have any other choice", the Brazilian
Health Minister commented.  According to him, the international community
should already be more tolerant in relation to this type of measure.  Even
President Bill Clinton of the USA declared that, in the case of AIDS, there
has to be greater flexibility in the case of medicinal patents.

In order to break the patents of the two medicines, the World Trade
Organization would have to be involved. This type of measure is adopted in
the case of emergencies.  By breaking the patents, Brazilian laboratories
would be
able to import raw material from suppliers that practice lower prices, which
would result in the reduction of the final cost.

The measure would benefit about eighty-five thousand patients registered in
the anti-viral program in effect since 1985.  The program is responsible for
the
reduction of 50% of the number of infections.  Access to the medicines,
combined with the anti-viral therapy, helped to avoid the hospitalization of
over one hundred and forty-six thousand people between 1997 and 1999, which
amounted to a savings of over US$ 420 million for public health facilities.

The studies by the Ministry of Health indicate that more than five hundred
thousand people in Brazil are infected with HIV.  Since 1980, one hundred
and eighty thousand cases have been documented.  The transmission of the
virus through unprotected sex represents 50% of all total reported cases
while 22% of the cases were the result of shared needles. (Agência Estado)

Brazil is the only large country in the world that supplies free AIDS
medication without any restrictions or eligibility requirements to all its
citizens with HIV, even to those who have private health plans.



------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C06CE0.F899FF90
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3207.2500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT face=3DArial>Brazil wants "to break patent" of medicines used =
to fight=20
AIDS&nbsp;<BR><BR></FONT><A=20
href=3D"http://www.waytecnet.com/thebraziliantimes-brazil-000614.html#32"=
=20
target=3D_blank><FONT=20
face=3DArial>http://www.waytecnet.com/thebraziliantimes-brazil-000614.htm=
l#32</FONT></A><BR><BR><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Indaiatuba (SP), June 13 - The Minister of Health, Jos=E9 =
Serra,=20
threatened yesterday to break the patent of two medicines used in the =
treatment=20
of AIDS unless foreign manufacturers reduce their prices. The measure, =
according=20
to Serra, would allow Brazilian laboratories to produce the medicines at =
lower=20
prices passing on the savings to the consumer.&nbsp; We cannot be paying =
an=20
"unjustifiable" fortune, said Serra.&nbsp;<BR><BR>The two medicines =
mentioned by=20
the Minister are Nelfinavir and Efavirene, produced by the North =
American=20
laboratories Roche and Merc Sharp Dhome, respectively. Accord to Mr. =
Serra, of=20
the R$ 617 million that the government spent in 1999 to purchase =
medicines for=20
those with the HIV virus, R$ 100 million alone was spent to import the =
two=20
products from the United States.&nbsp; Currently, the expenses related =
to the=20
purchase of medicines for the cocktail against AIDS should reach R$ 800=20
million.&nbsp;<BR><BR>In agreement with Serra, the Brazilian government =
is=20
prepared to face the adverse reactions that the measure should generate =
at the=20
laboratories. "If they don't lower the prices, we won't have any other =
choice",=20
the Brazilian Health Minister commented.&nbsp; According to him, the=20
international community should already be more tolerant in relation to =
this type=20
of measure.&nbsp; Even President Bill Clinton of the USA declared that, =
in the=20
case of AIDS, there has to be greater flexibility in the case of =
medicinal=20
patents.&nbsp;<BR><BR>In order to break the patents of the two =
medicines, the=20
World Trade Organization would have to be involved. This type of measure =
is=20
adopted in the case of emergencies.&nbsp; By breaking the patents, =
Brazilian=20
laboratories would be&nbsp;<BR>able to import raw material from =
suppliers that=20
practice lower prices, which would result in the reduction of the final=20
cost.&nbsp;<BR><BR>The measure would benefit about eighty-five thousand =
patients=20
registered in the anti-viral program in effect since 1985.&nbsp; The =
program is=20
responsible for the&nbsp;<BR>reduction of 50% of the number of =
infections.&nbsp;=20
Access to the medicines, combined with the anti-viral therapy, helped to =
avoid=20
the hospitalization of over one hundred and forty-six thousand people =
between=20
1997 and 1999, which amounted to a savings of over US$ 420 million for =
public=20
health facilities.&nbsp;<BR><BR>The studies by the Ministry of Health =
indicate=20
that more than five hundred thousand people in Brazil are infected with=20
HIV.&nbsp; Since 1980, one hundred and eighty thousand cases have been=20
documented.&nbsp; The transmission of the&nbsp;<BR>virus through =
unprotected sex=20
represents 50% of all total reported cases while 22% of the cases were =
the=20
result of shared needles. (Ag=EAncia Estado)&nbsp;<BR><BR>Brazil is the =
only large=20
country in the world that supplies free AIDS medication without any =
restrictions=20
or eligibility requirements to all its citizens with HIV, even to those =
who have=20
private health plans.<BR></FONT></P></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C06CE0.F899FF90--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:10:49 -0800
Reply-To:     urner@alumni.princeton.edu
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <urner@ALUMNI.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: FW: t,Bucky toys?
Comments: cc: Magda1994@aol.com
In-Reply-To:  <000001beecc0$ea432ee0$123cfea9@oemcomputer>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Joe, these URLs give me a 404 (not found).  Typo? =20
Ah, I found it:

http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/GeomModels.htm

I found DaMert's BuckyBall (aka SpaceBall) in a new
edition at the local toy store.  Includes "informative
booklet" much of which was written by yours trully=20
(last I checked -- DaMert inherited my text from=20
Roger Gilbertson of Mondotronics, who originally=20
pioneered the toy).

Another key URL is Design Science Toys, with a=20
factory in Tivoli New York.  That's where the Rogers
Connection stuff is actually fabricated, thanks to
the ingenious production techniques of Stu Quimby.
Other wooden puzzles good -- Rhombs and so forth,
good for learning synergetic geometry.

URL:  http://www.dstoys.com/ -- lots of good stuff!

This is also the original home of Tensegritoy.=20
Plus I highly recommend the Globe Project.  I took
when to Lesotho last year, and dad and I built it
together.  Fond memories.

Kirby

>Magda,
>
>See my Geometry/Models page
>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Links/GeomModels.htm
>
>and my Domes/Models page
>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Links/DomesModels.htm
>
>Joe S Moore
>mailto:joemoore@cruzio.com
>Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:37:27 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
In-Reply-To:  <000501c06cb0$984e8320$8508fbcf@oemcomputer>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Indeed they are.

What's "Hexas LLC" I wonder?  I notice this company has "copyrighted"
one of Bucky's pictures from Synergetics.

Compare: http://www.unistates.com/rmt/explained/glossary/octatetra.html
with:    http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s04/figs/f2002.html

Obviously it's the same picture.  Seems a more proper attribution
should be given.

"Without Hexas’ prior written permission, you may not reproduce,
distribute, modify, display, prepare derivative works based on,
repost or otherwise use this content..." -- yet here we catch them
doing exactly that, vis-a-vis the Estate of Buckminster Fuller.

I think we should contact the Estate and make sure this is done
with permission.

Kirby

At 11:18 PM 12/22/2000 -0800, Joe S Moore wrote:
>I think these people may be on to something!  They're putting together
>close-packed, truncated, rhombic dodecahedra in an octet truss pattern using
>various materials.
>
>Charles R. Ownes, inventor
>UniStates Technology Corp
>Medford, MA, USA
>
> http://www.unistates.com/rmt/
>
>Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
>Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:47:19 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.20001223163727.009fa6d0@pop.teleport.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I think we should contact the Estate and make sure this is done
>with permission.
>
>Kirby

Just forwarded this to Allegra:

        Fwd from GEODESIC:  Re: Hexas using RBF graphic
        w/o attribution for moneymaking

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 23 Dec 2000 20:00:44 -0700
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From:         marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
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You're right Kirby, it's an obvious rip off.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirby Urner" <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)


> Indeed they are.
>
> What's "Hexas LLC" I wonder?  I notice this company has "copyrighted"
> one of Bucky's pictures from Synergetics.
>
> Compare: http://www.unistates.com/rmt/explained/glossary/octatetra.html
> with:    http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s04/figs/f2002.html
>
> Obviously it's the same picture.  Seems a more proper attribution
> should be given.
>
> "Without Hexas' prior written permission, you may not reproduce,
> distribute, modify, display, prepare derivative works based on,
> repost or otherwise use this content..." -- yet here we catch them
> doing exactly that, vis-a-vis the Estate of Buckminster Fuller.
>
> I think we should contact the Estate and make sure this is done
> with permission.
>
> Kirby
>
> At 11:18 PM 12/22/2000 -0800, Joe S Moore wrote:
> >I think these people may be on to something!  They're putting together
> >close-packed, truncated, rhombic dodecahedra in an octet truss pattern
using
> >various materials.
> >
> >Charles R. Ownes, inventor
> >UniStates Technology Corp
> >Medford, MA, USA
> >
> > http://www.unistates.com/rmt/
> >
> >Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
> >Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:05:02 -0500
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From:         Chuck Kessler <ChuckKessler@MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: StarPlate Patent
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test



----- Original Message -----
From: Joe S Moore
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2000 1:28 PM
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: StarPlate Patent


At Delphion Intellectual Property Network:

StarPlate patent
#US 4,384,801 "Junction Plate"
by David O. Hamel
Madison, WI, USA
May 24, 1983

http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04384801__

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/<br=
 clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D"htt=
p://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>

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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>test<BR></DIV>=
 <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">=
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV =
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; FONT-COLOR: black"><B>Fro=
m:</B>&nbsp;Joe S Moore</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B=
>&nbsp;Saturday, December 23, 2000 1:28 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt=
 Arial"><B>To:</B>&nbsp;GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU</DIV> <DIV sty=
le=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B>&nbsp;StarPlate Patent</DIV> <DIV>=
<BR></DIV>At Delphion Intellectual Property Network:<BR><BR>StarPlate pat=
ent<BR>#US 4,384,801 "Junction Plate"<BR>by David O. Hamel<BR>Madison, WI=
, USA<BR>May 24, 1983<BR><BR>http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/=
US04384801__<BR><BR>Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com<BR>Buckminster Fulle=
r Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/<BR><BR> <DIV></DIV>=
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><DIV><BR><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE dow=
nload of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explo=
rer.msn.com</a><br></p></DIV>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:29:09 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
In-Reply-To:  <000d01c06d55$b709e2a0$3b93a6d8@intch.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:00 PM 12/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>You're right Kirby, it's an obvious rip off.
>

You'll notice the site studiously avoids mentioning RBF,
even though it's all about the octet truss, isotropic
forces, closest-packed spheres and the rest.

The legalese looks like boilerplate from Disney Inc.,
another rip off artist where Bucky is concerned (the
official Epcot literature studiously avoids all mention
of Fuller).

It's a tough situation for LLCs (limited liability
corporations):  you've got a lot of good, solid, profitable
ideas embedded in a syllabus that's downright subversive
vis-a-vis Obnoxico and business as usual -- makes you
almost think Bucky planned it that way.

It's great for educational purposes those.  I can assert
that Fuller is actively suppressed, both in universities
and in the business sector, and then I can go out on the
web and prove my case, easily.  Helps budding anthropologists
learn the meaning of the word "taboo".

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:23:44 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Dome-Related Patents
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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I just did a search for "geodesic dome" patents granted in the USA, Europe,
& Japan:

USA 60
Japan 3
Europe 0

They currently cover the period 1972 to present.

I used the Delphion Intellectual Property Network free service.
http://www.delphion.com/home

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 13:59:59 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>
> It's a tough situation for LLCs (limited liability
> corporations):  you've got a lot of good, solid,
> profitable
> ideas embedded in a syllabus that's downright
> subversive
> vis-a-vis Obnoxico and business as usual -- makes
> you
> almost think Bucky planned it that way.
>
> It's great

Or nature.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 16:33:47 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Eventually Fuller will get his do credit. As the study of structures expands
both in the smallest cases and the largest it will be obvious to those doing
the research that Fuller stumbled on this stuff way back when. The
definition of the structure of diamond for instance as evolved; it used to
be catagorized as cubic some 30 years ago in professional liturature now
it's referred to has hexagonal. Along with all the Bucky models I've built I
also build models of the atomic lattices of minerals with diamond being my
favorite. The diamond lattice lends itself for instance to be build with an
overall octahedral structure or an overall tetrahedral structure with the
octahedral structure being natures favorite. Both the natural crystals and
the man made ones tend to form (or grow) into octahedrons. What's also
interesting about diamond is that it is the best conductor of heat in the
universe and it's the lattice geometry that allows that physical
characteristic.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirby Urner" <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)


> At 08:00 PM 12/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> >You're right Kirby, it's an obvious rip off.
> >
>
> You'll notice the site studiously avoids mentioning RBF,
> even though it's all about the octet truss, isotropic
> forces, closest-packed spheres and the rest.
>
> The legalese looks like boilerplate from Disney Inc.,
> another rip off artist where Bucky is concerned (the
> official Epcot literature studiously avoids all mention
> of Fuller).
>
> It's a tough situation for LLCs (limited liability
> corporations):  you've got a lot of good, solid, profitable
> ideas embedded in a syllabus that's downright subversive
> vis-a-vis Obnoxico and business as usual -- makes you
> almost think Bucky planned it that way.
>
> It's great for educational purposes those.  I can assert
> that Fuller is actively suppressed, both in universities
> and in the business sector, and then I can go out on the
> web and prove my case, easily.  Helps budding anthropologists
> learn the meaning of the word "taboo".
>
> Kirby
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:46:56 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
In-Reply-To:  <000a01c06e01$f8aa31e0$3b93a6d8@intch.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Could be that he'll be included in the discussion
as a rational human being at some point, but it's
very easy to point to all these general patterns
and discuss them with others -- Kepler was into
the sphere packing lattice.  Not that we shouldn't
include Kepler -- just it'd be cool to have a little
more Bucky in the mix.  Is my opinion.

Kirby

At 04:33 PM 12/24/2000 -0700, you wrote:
>Eventually Fuller will get his do credit. As the study of structures expands
>both in the smallest cases and the largest it will be obvious to those doing
>the research that Fuller stumbled on this stuff way back when. The
>definition of the structure of diamond for instance as evolved; it used to
>be catagorized as cubic some 30 years ago in professional liturature now
>it's referred to has hexagonal. Along with all the Bucky models I've built I
>also build models of the atomic lattices of minerals with diamond being my
>favorite. The diamond lattice lends itself for instance to be build with an
>overall octahedral structure or an overall tetrahedral structure with the
>octahedral structure being natures favorite. Both the natural crystals and
>the man made ones tend to form (or grow) into octahedrons. What's also
>interesting about diamond is that it is the best conductor of heat in the
>universe and it's the lattice geometry that allows that physical
>characteristic.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:44:04 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

As much as i agree with the opinion that Bucky has
been ignored and maligned forever, he committed
egocide. Credit and blame are ego concepts which, when
harbored, damage creative and intuitive growth. Who
doesn't like their ego/separateness massaged. And
credit doesn't matter to Bucky AT ALL now. I think
that is safe to say(boy, I hate offending people, but
it can't be helped). People that lie about their
achievements are hurting themselves anyway, yes?

If the RMT people are concerned with making money,
they are irrelevant. If they are concerned with CADS
and the success of mind, I say to them, go for it.

RDF


--- marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM> wrote:
> Eventually Fuller will get his do credit. As the
> study of structures expands
> both in the smallest cases and the largest it will
> be obvious to those doing
> the research that Fuller stumbled on this stuff way
> back when. The
> definition of the structure of diamond for instance
> as evolved; it used to
> be catagorized as cubic some 30 years ago in
> professional liturature now
> it's referred to has hexagonal. Along with all the
> Bucky models I've built I
> also build models of the atomic lattices of minerals
> with diamond being my
> favorite. The diamond lattice lends itself for
> instance to be build with an
> overall octahedral structure or an overall
> tetrahedral structure with the
> octahedral structure being natures favorite. Both
> the natural crystals and
> the man made ones tend to form (or grow) into
> octahedrons. What's also
> interesting about diamond is that it is the best
> conductor of heat in the
> universe and it's the lattice geometry that allows
> that physical
> characteristic.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirby Urner" <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
> To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 10:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
>
>
> > At 08:00 PM 12/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> > >You're right Kirby, it's an obvious rip off.
> > >
> >
> > You'll notice the site studiously avoids
> mentioning RBF,
> > even though it's all about the octet truss,
> isotropic
> > forces, closest-packed spheres and the rest.
> >
> > The legalese looks like boilerplate from Disney
> Inc.,
> > another rip off artist where Bucky is concerned
> (the
> > official Epcot literature studiously avoids all
> mention
> > of Fuller).
> >
> > It's a tough situation for LLCs (limited liability
> > corporations):  you've got a lot of good, solid,
> profitable
> > ideas embedded in a syllabus that's downright
> subversive
> > vis-a-vis Obnoxico and business as usual -- makes
> you
> > almost think Bucky planned it that way.
> >
> > It's great for educational purposes those.  I can
> assert
> > that Fuller is actively suppressed, both in
> universities
> > and in the business sector, and then I can go out
> on the
> > web and prove my case, easily.  Helps budding
> anthropologists
> > learn the meaning of the word "taboo".
> >
> > Kirby
> >
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 20:53:12 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      all-space
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Is the 8-V(vertexion), i.e. the octa with a tet
stuck(glommed) to opposite ends, an all-space filler?

What is its right name? And do we have pictures? It
looks like a double pointy thing with six diamond
faces.

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 24 Dec 2000 21:04:09 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      buckle and crush
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Not a structural failure person, I don't know if
buckle and crush are two, more or less, separate and
distinct scenarios. Do beams buckle and domes crush?
Can someone fill me in? Local failure in a dome is not
catastrophic, I understand. Am I in the ball park?

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:20:23 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
In-Reply-To:  <20001225044404.15214.qmail@web4406.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

It's not for Bucky's sake that I push discussion of
his work/contribution into the mix, but for the sake
of children hoping for a better life aboard
Spaceship Earth.  I think our ability to make
sense, over mere money, is impaired so long as
our narratives don't own up to their responsibilities
in this regard.  Karma is about cold, calculating
cause and effect, points to a physics -- I'm not
saying it's primarily a morality thing, just a
question of intelligence (whether humans have
enuff of it).

Kirby

At 08:44 PM 12/24/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>As much as i agree with the opinion that Bucky has
>been ignored and maligned forever, he committed
>egocide. Credit and blame are ego concepts which, when
>harbored, damage creative and intuitive growth. Who
>doesn't like their ego/separateness massaged. And
>credit doesn't matter to Bucky AT ALL now. I think
>that is safe to say(boy, I hate offending people, but
>it can't be helped). People that lie about their
>achievements are hurting themselves anyway, yes?
>
>If the RMT people are concerned with making money,
>they are irrelevant. If they are concerned with CADS
>and the success of mind, I say to them, go for it.
>
>RDF
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:22:09 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: all-space
In-Reply-To:  <20001225045312.12105.qmail@web4405.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 08:53 PM 12/24/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>Is the 8-V(vertexion), i.e. the octa with a tet
>stuck(glommed) to opposite ends, an all-space filler?

Yeah, that's a slanty hexahedron, what Gene Fowler
calls an 18sys3.  It's also skewed Cartesian coordinates,
all the cubes pushed over -- can still do the usual
(x,y,z) stuff, but the vertices will align with closest
packed spheres.

>What is its right name? And do we have pictures? It
>looks like a double pointy thing with six diamond
>faces.
>
>Dick

It's a zonohedron, a rhombic hexahedron, something
like that.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Dec 2000 11:57:57 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Dome Financing
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Anybody have any info on this lady?

BARBARA WOOTEN FOOSHEE ("The DomeLady"):

"Fifteen years experience in geodesic dome home financing nationwide."

SFM Mortgage
Bedford, TX, USA

 http://www.thedomelady.com/

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Dec 2000 12:25:50 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: all-space
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dick,

Here are some refs I have on all-space filling:
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Air-Al.htm
(scroll down to "ALL-SPACE")

Also, at the bottom of my home page do a search for "all-space".

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Fischbeck" <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 8:53 PM
Subject: all-space


> Is the 8-V(vertexion), i.e. the octa with a tet
> stuck(glommed) to opposite ends, an all-space filler?
>
> What is its right name? And do we have pictures? It
> looks like a double pointy thing with six diamond
> faces.
>
> Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 25 Dec 2000 16:21:18 -0600
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Charles J Knight <c.knight@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Show me the "money"
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> > Show me the physical evidence that 'love' - or Any emotion Exists.
> >
> > Neither 'emotions' or 'thoughts' or 'ideas' are 'physical'.
> >
> > Think about it.

I have, and a lot of it depends on your definition of physical.  If you
mean the electrical activity in the brain, or its associated chemical
changes (i.e. the changes in neurotransmitter types and levels) which
*are* the manifestation of emotions, these can be seen real time with
a PET scanner.

If you mean the concept of the emotion itself, I don't think you can
quantify it.

     -- Chuck Knight
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 06:46:14 -0500
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From:         Chuck Kessler <ChuckKessler@MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: all-space
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----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Fischbeck
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 11:53 PM
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: all-space


Is the 8-V(vertexion), i.e. the octa with a tet
stuck(glommed) to opposite ends, an all-space filler?

What is its right name? And do we have pictures? It
looks like a double pointy thing with six diamond
faces.

Dick<br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href=
=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>

------=_NextPart_001_0007_01C06F07.8A81F200
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>unsubscribe<BR=
></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT=
: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV=
> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; FONT-COLOR: black"=
><B>From:</B>&nbsp;Dick Fischbeck</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><=
B>Sent:</B>&nbsp;Sunday, December 24, 2000 11:53 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"F=
ONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>&nbsp;GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU</DIV>=
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B>&nbsp;all-space</DIV> <DI=
V><BR></DIV>Is the 8-V(vertexion), i.e. the octa with a tet<BR>stuck(glom=
med) to opposite ends, an all-space filler?<BR><BR>What is its right name=
? And do we have pictures? It<BR>looks like a double pointy thing with si=
x diamond<BR>faces.<BR><BR>Dick<BR><BR> <DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></=
HTML><DIV><BR><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer =
at <a href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p=
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Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 06:47:16 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Fischbeck
Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 11:44 PM
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)


As much as i agree with the opinion that Bucky has
been ignored and maligned forever, he committed
egocide. Credit and blame are ego concepts which, when
harbored, damage creative and intuitive growth. Who
doesn't like their ego/separateness massaged. And
credit doesn't matter to Bucky AT ALL now. I think
that is safe to say(boy, I hate offending people, but
it can't be helped). People that lie about their
achievements are hurting themselves anyway, yes?

If the RMT people are concerned with making money,
they are irrelevant. If they are concerned with CADS
and the success of mind, I say to them, go for it.

RDF


--- marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM> wrote:
> Eventually Fuller will get his do credit. As the
> study of structures expands
> both in the smallest cases and the largest it will
> be obvious to those doing
> the research that Fuller stumbled on this stuff way
> back when. The
> definition of the structure of diamond for instance
> as evolved; it used to
> be catagorized as cubic some 30 years ago in
> professional liturature now
> it's referred to has hexagonal. Along with all the
> Bucky models I've built I
> also build models of the atomic lattices of minerals
> with diamond being my
> favorite. The diamond lattice lends itself for
> instance to be build with an
> overall octahedral structure or an overall
> tetrahedral structure with the
> octahedral structure being natures favorite. Both
> the natural crystals and
> the man made ones tend to form (or grow) into
> octahedrons. What's also
> interesting about diamond is that it is the best
> conductor of heat in the
> universe and it's the lattice geometry that allows
> that physical
> characteristic.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kirby Urner" <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
> To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 10:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Reflexive Materials Technology (RMT)
>
>
> > At 08:00 PM 12/23/2000 -0700, you wrote:
> > >You're right Kirby, it's an obvious rip off.
> > >
> >
> > You'll notice the site studiously avoids
> mentioning RBF,
> > even though it's all about the octet truss,
> isotropic
> > forces, closest-packed spheres and the rest.
> >
> > The legalese looks like boilerplate from Disney
> Inc.,
> > another rip off artist where Bucky is concerned
> (the
> > official Epcot literature studiously avoids all
> mention
> > of Fuller).
> >
> > It's a tough situation for LLCs (limited liability
> > corporations):  you've got a lot of good, solid,
> profitable
> > ideas embedded in a syllabus that's downright
> subversive
> > vis-a-vis Obnoxico and business as usual -- makes
> you
> > almost think Bucky planned it that way.
> >
> > It's great for educational purposes those.  I can
> assert
> > that Fuller is actively suppressed, both in
> universities
> > and in the business sector, and then I can go out
> on the
> > web and prove my case, easily.  Helps budding
> anthropologists
> > learn the meaning of the word "taboo".
> >
> > Kirby
> ><br clear=3Dall><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D=
"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>

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<HTML><BODY STYLE=3D"font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>unsubscribe<BR=
></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-=
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT=
: 0px"> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV=
> <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; FONT-COLOR: black"=
><B>From:</B>&nbsp;Dick Fischbeck</DIV> <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><=
B>Sent:</B>&nbsp;Sunday, December 24, 2000 11:44 PM</DIV> <DIV style=3D"F=
ONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>&nbsp;GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU</DIV>=
 <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B>&nbsp;Re: Reflexive Mater=
ials Technology (RMT)</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>As much as i agree with the op=
inion that Bucky has<BR>been ignored and maligned forever, he committed<B=
R>egocide. Credit and blame are ego concepts which, when<BR>harbored, dam=
age creative and intuitive growth. Who<BR>doesn't like their ego/separate=
ness massaged. And<BR>credit doesn't matter to Bucky AT ALL now. I think<=
BR>that is safe to say(boy, I hate offending people, but<BR>it can't be h=
elped). People that lie about their<BR>achievements are hurting themselve=
s anyway, yes?<BR><BR>If the RMT people are concerned with making money,<=
BR>they are irrelevant. If they are concerned with CADS<BR>and the succes=
s of mind, I say to them, go for it.<BR><BR>RDF<BR><BR><BR>--- marksomers=
 &lt;marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt; Eventually Fuller will g=
et his do credit. As the<BR>&gt; study of structures expands<BR>&gt; both=
 in the smallest cases and the largest it will<BR>&gt; be obvious to thos=
e doing<BR>&gt; the research that Fuller stumbled on this stuff way<BR>&g=
t; back when. The<BR>&gt; definition of the structure of diamond for inst=
ance<BR>&gt; as evolved; it used to<BR>&gt; be catagorized as cubic some =
30 years ago in<BR>&gt; professional liturature now<BR>&gt; it's referred=
 to has hexagonal. Along with all the<BR>&gt; Bucky models I've built I<B=
R>&gt; also build models of the atomic lattices of minerals<BR>&gt; with =
diamond being my<BR>&gt; favorite. The diamond lattice lends itself for<B=
R>&gt; instance to be build with an<BR>&gt; overall octahedral structure =
or an overall<BR>&gt; tetrahedral structure with the<BR>&gt; octahedral s=
tructure being natures favorite. Both<BR>&gt; the natural crystals and<BR=
>&gt; the man made ones tend to form (or grow) into<BR>&gt; octahedrons. =
What's also<BR>&gt; interesting about diamond is that it is the best<BR>&=
gt; conductor of heat in the<BR>&gt; universe and it's the lattice geomet=
ry that allows<BR>&gt; that physical<BR>&gt; characteristic.<BR>&gt;<BR>&=
gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; ----- Original Message -----<BR>&gt; From: "Kirby Urn=
er" &lt;pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM&gt;<BR>&gt; Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic<=
BR>&gt; To: &lt;GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU&gt;<BR>&gt; Sent: Sund=
ay, December 24, 2000 10:29 AM<BR>&gt; Subject: Re: Reflexive Materials T=
echnology (RMT)<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; At 08:00 PM 12/23/2000 -0700=
, you wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;You're right Kirby, it's an obvious rip off=
.<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; You'll notice the site stud=
iously avoids<BR>&gt; mentioning RBF,<BR>&gt; &gt; even though it's all a=
bout the octet truss,<BR>&gt; isotropic<BR>&gt; &gt; forces, closest-pack=
ed spheres and the rest.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; The legalese looks lik=
e boilerplate from Disney<BR>&gt; Inc.,<BR>&gt; &gt; another rip off arti=
st where Bucky is concerned<BR>&gt; (the<BR>&gt; &gt; official Epcot lite=
rature studiously avoids all<BR>&gt; mention<BR>&gt; &gt; of Fuller).<BR>=
&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; It's a tough situation for LLCs (limited liability=
<BR>&gt; &gt; corporations):&nbsp; you've got a lot of good, solid,<BR>&g=
t; profitable<BR>&gt; &gt; ideas embedded in a syllabus that's downright<=
BR>&gt; subversive<BR>&gt; &gt; vis-a-vis Obnoxico and business as usual =
-- makes<BR>&gt; you<BR>&gt; &gt; almost think Bucky planned it that way.=
<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; It's great for educational purposes those.&nbs=
p; I can<BR>&gt; assert<BR>&gt; &gt; that Fuller is actively suppressed, =
both in<BR>&gt; universities<BR>&gt; &gt; and in the business sector, and=
 then I can go out<BR>&gt; on the<BR>&gt; &gt; web and prove my case, eas=
ily.&nbsp; Helps budding<BR>&gt; anthropologists<BR>&gt; &gt; learn the m=
eaning of the word "taboo".<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Kirby<BR>&gt; &gt;<=
BR><BR> <DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><DIV><BR><br clear=3Dall><h=
r>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a href=3D"http://explorer.ms=
n.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></DIV>

------=_NextPart_001_0008_01C06F07.AF23FF40--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 09:19:31 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Bucky Play
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The Bucky play "R. Buckminster Fuller: THE HISTORY (and Mystery) OF THE
UNIVERSE" will be performed in Seattle, WA, at the Intiman Theatre from June
8 thru July 7, 2001.

 http://intiman.siteconnect.com/season.html

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 11:31:14 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      1946 Dymaxion (Wichita) House
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just a reminder: The Dymaxion House exhibit at Henry Ford Museum/Greenfield
Village (Dearborn, MI, USA) will be open to the public in the "Fall" (Oct
1?) of 2001.

 http://www.hfmgv.org/dymaxion/index.htm

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 11:57:48 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Revolving Wardrobe
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A color, 616k MPEG movie of Fuller's restored "Revolving Wardrobe".

 http://www.hfmgv.org/dymaxion/journal/99.htm

See: _The Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller_ (1973 edition), illustration
number 224 (page 140).

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 14:51:13 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: all-space
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Try unsubscribe in the subject line.
--- Chuck Kessler <ChuckKessler@MSN.COM> wrote:
> unsubscribe
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dick Fischbeck
> Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2000 11:53 PM
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: all-space
>
>
> Is the 8-V(vertexion), i.e. the octa with a tet
> stuck(glommed) to opposite ends, an all-space
> filler?
>
> What is its right name? And do we have pictures? It
> looks like a double pointy thing with six diamond
> faces.
>
> Dick<br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN
> Explorer at <a
>
href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:34:17 -0000
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         OOWON@NETSCAPE.NET
Subject:      Hello
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I am familiar w/eGroups lists, but not with remote eGroups lists.
Main interest at moment i\s geodesic greenhouses, connector fab,
glazing, and the like.
Bill
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 19:00:11 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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"Petroleum geologists have known for 50 years that global oil
production would "peak" and begin its inevitable decline within
a decade of the year 2000.  Moreover, no renewable energy
systems have the potential to generate more than a tiny fraction
of the power now being generated by fossil fuels. In short, the
end of oil signals the end of civilization, as we know it."

http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 21 Dec 2000 10:09:18 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Mark Siegmund <siegmund@THEGRID.NET>
Subject:      FW: Seminar
Comments: To: Tetglobal <tetglobal@listbot.com>,
          Tetworld <Tetworld@listbot.com>, Peace <pec@csd.uwm.edu>,
          Envtecsoc <envtecsoc@csf.colorado.edu>
In-Reply-To:  <3C22A568.E7E32B7B@jp1.dot.net.in>
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----------
From: naresh dadhich <ndadhich@jp1.dot.net.in>
Reply-To: ndadhich@jp1.dot.net.in
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:28:48 +0530
To: siegmund@thegrid.net
Subject: Seminar


Dear Mark,
Jaipur Peace Foundation is organising an international meet on CULTURE OF
PEACE on dec.27-29,2001 at jaipur,India.The next issue of journal is devoted
to the same theme.I request you kindly to ciculate this information  to
multiple receipents of list as well as in your journal.
My c.v. is also attached herewith for your perusal.
With Regards
Naresh Dadhich

Mark Siegmund wrote:
Hi, Season's Greetings and Wishes for a Stellar 2001!

For those on this list who have contributed articles for Vol. 16, No.1 of
The International Journal of Humanities and Peace (IJHP)--it is at the
printer--and we will begin sending out complimentary author's copies in the
next week or so.

If you have submitted an article for this issue, kindly send me your current
mailing address.

Also, we are now accepting submissions for Vol. 17, No. 1, 2001. The
general topic/theme, will again be "The Culture of Peace".

For submission guidelines, please visit our webpage at:
http://netword.com/*ijhp

Many thanks and much appreciation to those of you who have been published in
this volume, and/or previous volumes.  It is your work that makes IJHP the
leader in its field.

Cheers,
Mark Siegmund
Associate Editor




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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>FW: Seminar</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>----------<BR>
<B>From: </B>naresh dadhich &lt;ndadhich@jp1.dot.net.in&gt;<BR>
<B>Reply-To: </B>ndadhich@jp1.dot.net.in<BR>
<B>Date: </B>Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:28:48 +0530<BR>
<B>To: </B>siegmund@thegrid.net<BR>
<B>Subject: </B>Seminar<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2">Dear Mark,</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">Jaipur Peace Foundation is organising an international meet =
on CULTURE OF PEACE on dec.27-29,2001 at jaipur,India.The next issue of jour=
nal is devoted to the same theme.I request you kindly to ciculate this infor=
mation &nbsp;to multiple receipents of list as well as in your journal.</FON=
T> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">My c.v. is also attached herewith for your perusal.</FONT> <=
BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">With Regards</FONT> <BR>
<FONT SIZE=3D"2">Naresh Dadhich</FONT> <BR>
<BR>
Mark Siegmund wrote: <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Hi, Season's Greetings and Wishes for a Stellar 2001! <BR>
<BR>
For those on this list who have contributed articles for Vol. 16, No.1 of <=
BR>
The International Journal of Humanities and Peace (IJHP)--it is at the <BR>
printer--and we will begin sending out complimentary author's copies in the=
 <BR>
next week or so. <BR>
<BR>
If you have submitted an article for this issue, kindly send me your curren=
t <BR>
mailing address. <BR>
<BR>
Also, we are now accepting submissions for Vol. 17, No. 1, 2001. The <BR>
general topic/theme, will again be &quot;The Culture of Peace&quot;. <BR>
<BR>
For submission guidelines, please visit our webpage at: <BR>
http://netword.com/*ijhp <BR>
<BR>
Many thanks and much appreciation to those of you who have been published i=
n <BR>
this volume, and/or previous volumes. &nbsp;It is your work that makes IJHP=
 the <BR>
leader in its field. <BR>
<BR>
Cheers, <BR>
Mark Siegmund <BR>
Associate Editor<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


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3!r!!N!2a!*!$mJ#3!r-!N!2d!*!$p3#3!rB!N!2h!*!$q!#3!rN!N!2k!*!$r!#
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[FfpQG#"AEh*N)%4[Bh9YC@jd!!S!N!008eG[FQ4%Ef-!%!#3!eG[FQ3Z4'pMG@e
PER3Z1!$d1E*a!*!Lr[m!!!3!!J#3%3)!N!-#eFh9R#iE%*1A#!!V,2QZ4!#3!`A
9cG@F,KX3NjF)!#XXqDj-!3!!#!%!!!`!N!-"!*!$D!#3!`m!N!0`!*!$"3#3!iJ
!N!-'!*!$N!!!N!-4!*!$Q!#3!aF!N!1J!*!$#`#3!kJ!N!-3!*!$X!#3!a-!N!1
i!*!$&J#3!m!!N!-0!*!$b!#3!``!N!2R!*!$!J#3!q3%!!!H!*!$%!#3!d&d)&P
[GA)J8f9bGQPMC3!$!*!$9J#3!`-!N!-8!*!$!`#3!l8a!!!$!*!$X`d)!!X!N!F
,!*!(#`#3"`X!N!FH%!!!!3#3!a-!N!0$99*558096&90)*!$9NP8388!$"!!!!)
!N!-H!*!$"J#3!e4TG'aP!!-!N!-"!*!'Q!#3!`-!N!FJ!*!$!3#3!cB!N!-#!*!
$2J#3!`%!N!-#!*!$#J#3!ep3584I4e9*4!!#!*!$j!3!!%%!N!01!*!$H`!j!%-
!0J!b!%)!1!!d!$-!,3"&!$N!3J!h!#d!-3!a!%3!03!Y!$J!0!!a!$N!,3!i!%B
!43!i!$B!4J!e!$!!13!d!$-!-3"p!*!Mr[m!!!3!!J#3%3%!N!2JKCrbq8pS%+Z
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d!3!!$!#3!d!"!!!0!*!$6!%!!!i!N!0B!3!!$`#3!f!"!!!3!*!$D!%!!"-!N!0
`!3!!!J#3!q3%!!!H!*!$%`#3!d098P**3e9-98dJN!0@594"43!!(J#3!`%!N!4
98P)H!*!$%3#3!ePKG'PcD#"3B@`J8fPZCfJ!43!!(J#3!`%!N!4KG'NH!*!$"`#
3!dj[FQeKE!"3(J#3!a%!N!0CBA4TFfJJ8'&X)&0TEQGS!%8!!"i!N!-$!*!$-6)
!D4i!N!-6!*!$6@PMFQpcEfCd)&G[FQ3J1#i`!!"!!*!%r##5-J#3!d!!N!4Qf'+
@IF%"3!#3"#+&)0#'`3%$!*!$!3#3!`-!N!-C"`!!!`#3!hSS!!!$!*$r!*$Jrj!
)!`#3!`3!N!-&!*!$"J#3!`F!N!-)!*!$#3#3!`S!N!-,!*!$$!#3!`d!N!-1!*!
$$`#3!a!!N!-4!*!$%J#3!a-!N!-8!*!$&3#3!aB!N!-A!*!$'!#3!aN!N!-D!*!
$'`#3!a`!N!-G!*!$(J#3!am!N!-J!*!$+!#3!rq3"#-!N!-N!*!$*3#3!e%!N!0
j!*!$C`#3!b)!N!-R!*!$+`#3!b`!N!-Y!*!$,J#3!bm!N!-`!*!$-3#3!c)!N!-
c!*!$*J#3!lX!N!-f!*!$0`#3!cJ!N!-j!*!$1J#3!cX!N!-m!*!$23#3!ci!N!-
r!*!$HJ#3!rq3"%)!N!0$!*!$4!#3!d8!N!0'!*!$8J#3!e!!N!0*!*!$5J#3!dX
!N!0-!*!$63#3!di!N!02!*!$4`#3!fJ!N!0)!*!$8`#3!e3!N!09!*!$9J#3!eF
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!N!0N!*!$C3#3!fB!N!0a!*!$E!#3!fN!N!0U!*!$D`#3!fi!N!0e!*!$r[q3!fm
!N!0`!*!$I!#3!h)!N!0c!*!$G!#3!hd!N!0f!*!$G`#3!hJ!N!-U!*!$Q3#3!hX
!N!15!*!$+3#3!hi!N!0r!*!$J!#3!pAe!!!"!*!$!3#3#"jC3C!%@%'3"%G"N!4
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43C!$3c4"N!4f3C!%68'3"%4&3C!%H8'3"%eh3C!$3eP"$8&"3cG"N!41Cd'3!d4
M3C!%0%'3"%p43C!$4'p"N!3h3C!%8%'3"%3`3C!%+d'3"&"h3C!$5'p"N!0%,j!
&$9&R!!!"!*!$!3#3#"i!N!NF!"lrrc-@:


--MS_Mac_OE_3060238158_774229_MIME_Part--
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 14:00:23 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Elections

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            26-DEC-2000 14:00
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Item    1 ( 995) City Council Watch
 1:995) City Council Watch
 Brian ?Quincy! Hutchings                               26-DEC-20 11:42

  here is the law that says, per the Wednesday deadline
  for submitting papers of nomination for [a Councillor]'s office,
  that they are to be accepted "during normal business hours,"
  that is til 5:30 PM on that day -- not til 5:02 PM,
  as with the refusal of the City.
     note that I was refused any stamping by the timeclock,
  at that time, as well as for my write-in papers, although
  I'd never gotten taht particular treatment, before (as well,
  my papers were stolen, later, and everything else dumped
  into a garbage bin, which was emptied later that day --
  shopping-cart-and-all!)

  that code is the State Elections Code Section 10220, and
  there is no countermanding Municipal Code.

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 bush/gore/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
 * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
 bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
 to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
 in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.  Things that make ygo,
 Hm; hm?  Merged with Internet Time,
 our lordships have provided a year-zero, 2000 CCE (whereby,
 1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 14:06:10 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      the Aluminum President?

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            26-DEC-2000 14:06
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 If Ronald Raegan was sometimes known as the Teflon President,
 the putative residency of another George Bush, long since
 having wrapped himself with Reagan's conservative aura, has
 taken a special caldding, with the imposition
 into Treasury Secretary Hamilton's office
 of a "right-sizing" expert from Alcoa (aluminum manufacturer).

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 bush/gore/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
 * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
 bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
 to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
 in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.  Things that make ygo,
 Hm; hm?  Merged with Internet Time,
 our lordships have provided a year-zero, 2000 CCE (whereby,
 1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:56:07 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dexter,

I'm sorry, but I respectfully disagree.   I just can't let the statement
below go unchallenged; see
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/End.htm

Check out the items in the "Energy" section, & especially see the book
_Energy, Earth & Everyone_
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Biblio/AboutBFbookTOC-EnergyEarthAndEveryone
.htm

Humanity can have at least 3 times as much energy as we have now while at
the same time phasing out the dangerous & nonrenewable sources of energy
such as fossil & nuclear.
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/EndEnergyRenewable.htm

Any one single renewable source of energy taken alone couldn't replace what
we have now, but the dozen or so proven types of renewable energy sources
certainly can.

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dexter Graphic" <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 7:00 PM
Subject: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff


> "Petroleum geologists have known for 50 years that global oil
> production would "peak" and begin its inevitable decline within
> a decade of the year 2000.  Moreover, no renewable energy
> systems have the potential to generate more than a tiny fraction
> of the power now being generated by fossil fuels. In short, the
> end of oil signals the end of civilization, as we know it."
>
> http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:02:50 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Hello
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bill,

Welcome.  For info re geodesic domes see:
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Index/Dome-Dt.htm

Also, you can use the search feature at the bottom of my home page to look
for various terms such as "connector" or "greenhouse".

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: <OOWON@NETSCAPE.NET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 4:34 PM
Subject: Hello


> I am familiar w/eGroups lists, but not with remote eGroups lists.
> Main interest at moment it's geodesic greenhouses, connector fab,
> glazing, and the like.
> Bill
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 26 Dec 2000 23:39:22 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Bucky Stamp
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Bucky stamp issued by the Republic of Palau (part of the "Visionaries of the
20th Century" series) in 19??


http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=12031
32663

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 00:11:49 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Popular Science Cover
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Color pic of May 1966 cover of Popular Science magazine featuring the "Sun
Domes".


http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=14005
22572

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 01:41:22 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dexter,

there's about a gaxzillion holes in the guys paper without even starting in
on the math. But the main problem with his paper is that it is written from
the perspective of someone sitting down with a big tool box of tools that
are only oil and gas tools so what other conclusion would one come too?

Mark

P.S. cute domain name too "dieoff.org" Geez.
Also another way too look at it Dexter is that you maybe one of those
billions that dies ooooooooooorrrrr you could pay me and I'll put together a
system so you and billions of others wont have to take that chance.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dexter Graphic" <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 8:00 PM
Subject: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff


> "Petroleum geologists have known for 50 years that global oil
> production would "peak" and begin its inevitable decline within
> a decade of the year 2000.  Moreover, no renewable energy
> systems have the potential to generate more than a tiny fraction
> of the power now being generated by fossil fuels. In short, the
> end of oil signals the end of civilization, as we know it."
>
> http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 02:00:57 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Popular Science Cover
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Joe,

 are you going to bid on it?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe S Moore" <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 1:11 AM
Subject: Popular Science Cover


> Color pic of May 1966 cover of Popular Science magazine featuring the "Sun
> Domes".
>
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=14005
> 22572
>
> Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
> Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 05:53:18 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Elections
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

treatment, before
> (as well,
>   my papers were stolen, later, and everything else
> dumped
>   into a garbage bin, which was emptied later that
> day --
>   shopping-cart-and-all!)
>

Do they know you at city hall? Maybe they heard you
read Bucky and are a subversive?!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 05:57:59 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: the Aluminum President?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>  If Ronald Raegan was sometimes known as the Teflon
> President,
>  the putative residency of another George Bush, long
> since
>  having wrapped himself with Reagan's conservative
> aura, has
>  taken a special caldding, with the imposition
>  into Treasury Secretary Hamilton's office
>  of a "right-sizing" expert from Alcoa (aluminum
> manufacturer).

Well, speaking of cladding, maybe this guy is
interested in manufacturing the next billion or so
dwelling machines. Aluminum is one of my choice
shelter elements!
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:03:20 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET> wrote:
> "Petroleum geologists have known for 50 years that
> global oil
> production would "peak" and begin its inevitable
> decline within
> a decade of the year 2000.  Moreover, no renewable
> energy
> systems have the potential to generate more than a
> tiny fraction
> of the power now being generated by fossil fuels. In
> short, the
> end of oil signals the end of civilization, as we
> know it."
>
> http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm

"DIEOFF"????? What's up with this.  Darwinian
leftovers?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:36:25 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
In-Reply-To:  <20001227140320.19527.qmail@web4404.mail.yahoo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>"DIEOFF"????? What's up with this.  Darwinian
>leftovers?
>

Jay Hanson has been working on this website for quite some time.

What? do you think most of the world buy's into some post-
Malthusian world view?  Where'd you get that notion?

Fuller is obscure and not studied much.  Most of these
"abundance" people haven't done enough homework to sound
credible.  The Malthusian paradigm is still the dominant
one.

After all, even Fuller thought we'd have ended death from
hunger by 2000 (over in a few days).  Fuller thought we had
a *chance* for success, not that it was a foregone conclusion
that we'd actually avail of this opportunity.  What'd he call
it? oh yeah: "touch 'n go".

Fuller was not entirely optimistic, said so numerous times.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 13:04:05 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

 One of Fullers main contentions was the influx of Solar enegy
(from whence all of our energy comes in the first place)
 is more than enough to satisfy all of humanities energy needs many times
over.
The question is how to harvest it.

>From "Operating Manual...." pg 111:
"the daily income energies are excessively adequet for the operation of our
main industrial
 engines and their automated productions. The energy expended in one minute
of a tropical
huricane equals the combined energy of all the U.S.A. and U.S.S.R. nuclear
weapons.
Only by understanding this scheme may we continue for all time ahead to
enjoy and explore
 the universe as we progressively harness evermore the celestial generated
tidal and storm
generated wind, water and electrical power concentrations."

-----Original Message-----
From: Kirby Urner
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Sent: 12/27/00 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

>"DIEOFF"????? What's up with this.  Darwinian
>leftovers?
>

Jay Hanson has been working on this website for quite some time.

What? do you think most of the world buy's into some post-
Malthusian world view?  Where'd you get that notion?

Fuller is obscure and not studied much.  Most of these
"abundance" people haven't done enough homework to sound
credible.  The Malthusian paradigm is still the dominant
one.

After all, even Fuller thought we'd have ended death from
hunger by 2000 (over in a few days).  Fuller thought we had
a *chance* for success, not that it was a foregone conclusion
that we'd actually avail of this opportunity.  What'd he call
it? oh yeah: "touch 'n go".

Fuller was not entirely optimistic, said so numerous times.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 12:50:37 -0800
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From:         mike nuess <mnuess@MICRON.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
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              boundary="------------C4162F72F201BE9E70CAC0FF"

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The end oil (as we know it) could be good. Oil is fundamentally scarce
relative to humanity's energy sustainability requirements.

Renewables such as solar thermal, solar electrical, solar mechanical, as
well solar storage and transport via hydrogen are not.  Hence the Grunch
energy czars' eagerness to pooh pooh them as weak and reluctance to
deploy them.  But there is as much life-cycle energy delivered by a gram
of silicon in a solar cell in Arizona, as there is released by a gram of
nuclear feedstock used in a breeder reactor (Ogden&Williams 1989).

The technical paths to powerfully abundant energy plenty are (have been)
immediately available.

The real difficulty is one of rapidly transforming our collective
ignorance. And I haven't a clue as to  how to do this....

     "The real difficulty, the difficulty which has baffled the
     sages of all times, is rather this: how can we make our
     teachings so potent in the emotional life of man, that its
     influence should withstand the pressure of the elemental
     psychic forces [either me or you, so me 1st] in the
     individual?" -Einstein 1938

Dexter Graphic wrote:

> "Petroleum geologists have known for 50 years that global oil
> production would "peak" and begin its inevitable decline within
> a decade of the year 2000.  Moreover, no renewable energy
> systems have the potential to generate more than a tiny fraction
> of the power now being generated by fossil fuels. In short, the
> end of oil signals the end of civilization, as we know it."
>
> http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
The end oil (as we know it) could be good. Oil is fundamentally scarce
relative to humanity's energy sustainability requirements.
<p>Renewables such as solar thermal, solar electrical, solar mechanical,
as well solar storage and transport via hydrogen are not.&nbsp; Hence the
Grunch energy czars' eagerness to pooh pooh them as weak and reluctance
to deploy them.&nbsp; But there is as much life-cycle energy delivered
by a gram of silicon in a solar cell in Arizona, as there is released by
a gram of nuclear feedstock used in a breeder reactor (Ogden&amp;Williams
1989).
<p>The technical paths to powerfully abundant energy plenty are (have been)
immediately available.
<p>The real difficulty is one of rapidly transforming our collective ignorance.
And I haven't a clue as to&nbsp; how to do this....
<blockquote>"The real difficulty, the difficulty which has baffled the
sages of all times, is rather this: how can we make our teachings so potent
in the emotional life of man, that its influence should withstand the pressure
of the elemental psychic forces [either me or you, so me 1st] in the individual?"
-Einstein 1938</blockquote>

<p><br>Dexter Graphic wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>"Petroleum geologists have known for 50 years that
global oil
<br>production would "peak" and begin its inevitable decline within
<br>a decade of the year 2000.&nbsp; Moreover, no renewable energy
<br>systems have the potential to generate more than a tiny fraction
<br>of the power now being generated by fossil fuels. In short, the
<br>end of oil signals the end of civilization, as we know it."
<p><a href="http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm">http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm</a></blockquote>
</html>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:05:25 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Support of NPR vs support of your local station

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            27-DEC-2000  6:05
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 partial dysclosure:
 there is virtually no public input at KCRW, that is broadcast.
    the only recourse is to complain at the College Trustees,
 who simply rubberstamp the (secret) fundraising-board's issue, although
 they technically oversee it.
    there are no call-in programs, exccept rarely on Which Way LA.
 I've tried to get things to Olney in an unobtusive manner,
 which resulted in me being kicked off of campus (his doing,
 as well as the head of the Democratic Club,
 at a time when I was an elected member of the LACounty Ctrl.Cmte. !-)
    so, the last time I was at Council,
 during the broadcast over KCRW, I refferred to mister Olney as the head
 of the local Jim Crow apparatus for the Democratic Convention.
 basically, that's about as accurate a characterization
 as I've heared, if I do say.

 it was not the elections, being any worse than heretofore, but
 the cirrupt campagns of the RNC and DNC, and
 Olney went right-along with it, in spite
 of being given ample material on the crushing
 of the Voting Rights Act of 65 by the Supreme Court (March 27),
 and so on.
    this is a part of his profile, more-or-less,
 as the unofficial "case-officer" for the Boston Brahmins
 that he represents (you can once-in-while hear it
 in his voice, although he's claimed to be "4th generation Calif.elite"
 -- which may be so on his mom's side, say; also,
 he gets all of these Chairs on various corporate-academic groups).

 thus quoth:
  your opinions, tho, and pass them along.  If you *really* want to get
  NPR's attention, the people to talk to are NPR's funders and
 underwriters,
  specifically the folks who underwrite the news programming... uh, you
  know, like Archer-Daniels-Midland....


 yes, we doo know!

 --The Duke of Oil!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:15:31 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            27-DEC-2000  6:15
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 setting aside the idea that Bucky endorsed the book
 of an oil-engineer who believed it in spades,
 the whole *field* of "renewable energy" has been defined
 from the get-go by the purveyor's of oil,
 particularly the Rockefellers --
 as you might gather from the WAND Corp.'s promotion
 of all things Green, and nothing of nuclear power.
    let's just get one thing straight (or round), now:
 there is no extant fuel that has been "fossilised,"
 unless you know of an entrepreneur who has configured a method
 for transforming the Petrified Forest (Arizona)
 into a strip-logging operation; eh?

 it is certainly tantamountly important to grok the flows
 of energy within the biosphere, but
 it is also an intersting *gedanken* excercise,
 to harness a hurricane, as implied by Bucky at his extremity
 (I'd suggest the Southern Polar Vortex as an annually,
 more-or-less regular-and-fixed start !-)
    most of the stuff that is out there
 about nuke-yellar power is scare-mongering,
 precedented by a lone-nut act of terror,
 the bombing of Hirshima "and Nagasaki, two,"
 directly over MacArthur's head (then,
 they fired him, and had a nice cabinet-war in Korea).

 thus quoth:
  Humanity can have at least 3 times as much energy as we have now while at
  the same time phasing out the dangerous & nonrenewable sources of energy
  such as fossil & nuclear.
  http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/EndEnergyRenewable.htm

 >--The Duke of Oil!
 >http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 06:18:39 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: the Aluminum President?

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            27-DEC-2000  6:18
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 well, here was my main point.
    about a week before the guy was hired by Shrub,
 Alcoa gave a huge bequest to WAND Corp.
 for a program that may not involve flouridation
 of Santa Monica's water.  now,
 WAND has 4 boardmembers (2 current "Dons" and 2 recently-
 retired) who are on the G2Kcmte. -- what gives?

 >>--The Duke of Oil!
 >>http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:10:38 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Popular Science Cover
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

No.  Just thought others might want to know what's currently available at
Ebay.  I sort of keep an eye on them & once in a while something interesting
pops up.  I think that Pop Sci feature article was one of the first on
domes.

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "marksomers" <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: Popular Science Cover


> Joe,
>
>  are you going to bid on it?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe S Moore" <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
> To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 1:11 AM
> Subject: Popular Science Cover
>
> > Color pic of May 1966 cover of Popular Science magazine featuring the
"Sun
> > Domes".
> >
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewItem&item=14005
> > 22572
> >
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:27:13 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM> wrote:
>  One of Fullers main contentions was the influx of
> Solar enegy
> (from whence all of our energy comes in the first
> place)
>  is more than enough to satisfy all of humanities
> energy needs many times
> over.
> The question is how to harvest it.
>
>

Why not ALL WAYS??? Even ways no one has thought of
yet.

Photosynthesis, p-voltaics, direct gain, wind,etc.
Count the ways. 10? 12? More?!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 14:38:28 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- mike nuess <mnuess@MICRON.NET> wrote:
> The end oil (as we know it) could be good. Oil is
> fundamentally scarce
> relative to humanity's energy sustainability
> requirements.
>
> Renewables such as solar thermal, solar electrical,
> solar mechanical, as
> well solar storage and transport via hydrogen are
> not.  Hence the Grunch
> energy czars' eagerness to pooh pooh them as weak
> and reluctance to
> deploy them.  But there is as much life-cycle energy
> delivered by a gram
> of silicon in a solar cell in Arizona, as there is
> released by a gram of
> nuclear feedstock used in a breeder reactor
> (Ogden&Williams 1989).
>
> The technical paths to powerfully abundant energy
> plenty are (have been)
> immediately available.
>
> The real difficulty is one of rapidly transforming
> our collective
> ignorance. And I haven't a clue as to  how to do
> this....
>
>      "The real difficulty, the difficulty which has
> baffled the
>      sages of all times, is rather this: how can we
> make our
>      teachings so potent in the emotional life of
> man, that its
>      influence should withstand the pressure of the
> elemental
>      psychic forces [either me or you, so me 1st] in
> the
>      individual?" -Einstein 1938
>

Wow, What a quote. Where is it from?

Bucky talked about the need for the process named
above to be spontaneous(otherwise, forget about it).
His best guess that it might happen through the
understanding achieve using Synergetics.

Someone is going to discover an artifact that will
introduce billions(?) to Synergetics. Soon I hope.
Otherwise, curtains.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:15:50 -0700
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From:         marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I just heard on CNN Financial News that the energy producers using wind
power along with the other producers are going to be big winners. Also that
environmental restrictions on generator plants will be dropped.

Here's the real test in my opinion. The greenies need to drop their protest
signs and start lobbying those who got the bucks to build wind and or solar
bio plants etc. Not annoy but to propose as engineers.

Note on the dieoff paper: Gasoline, diesel, gas, jet fuel ARE hydrogen fuel.
Hydrogen is the source of energy  in all organic fuels. Kirby no offence but
I don't need
a bad chemist explaining in a bad way, non the less, bad physio-chemistry.

Mark

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Fischbeck" <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff


> --- Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM> wrote:
> >  One of Fullers main contentions was the influx of
> > Solar enegy
> > (from whence all of our energy comes in the first
> > place)
> >  is more than enough to satisfy all of humanities
> > energy needs many times
> > over.
> > The question is how to harvest it.
> >
> >
>
> Why not ALL WAYS??? Even ways no one has thought of
> yet.
>
> Photosynthesis, p-voltaics, direct gain, wind,etc.
> Count the ways. 10? 12? More?!
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:35:58 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         mike nuess <mnuess@MICRON.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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It's from a short essay he wrote called Morals and Emotions, published
in "Out of My Later Years," A. Einstein, p. 15, Random House Value
Publishing.  Actually the few preceding paragraphs add a lot, if you've
the time to look it up.

My sense of it is that when the mist of ignorance really clears for an
individual the reaction is pretty spontaneous...they start dancing...

Dick Fischbeck wrote:

> --- mike nuess <mnuess@MICRON.NET> wrote:
> > The end oil (as we know it) could be good. Oil is
> > fundamentally scarce
> > relative to humanity's energy sustainability
> > requirements.
> >
> > Renewables such as solar thermal, solar electrical,
> > solar mechanical, as
> > well solar storage and transport via hydrogen are
> > not.  Hence the Grunch
> > energy czars' eagerness to pooh pooh them as weak
> > and reluctance to
> > deploy them.  But there is as much life-cycle energy
> > delivered by a gram
> > of silicon in a solar cell in Arizona, as there is
> > released by a gram of
> > nuclear feedstock used in a breeder reactor
> > (Ogden&Williams 1989).
> >
> > The technical paths to powerfully abundant energy
> > plenty are (have been)
> > immediately available.
> >
> > The real difficulty is one of rapidly transforming
> > our collective
> > ignorance. And I haven't a clue as to  how to do
> > this....
> >
> >      "The real difficulty, the difficulty which has
> > baffled the
> >      sages of all times, is rather this: how can we
> > make our
> >      teachings so potent in the emotional life of
> > man, that its
> >      influence should withstand the pressure of the
> > elemental
> >      psychic forces [either me or you, so me 1st] in
> > the
> >      individual?" -Einstein 1938
> >
>
> Wow, What a quote. Where is it from?
>
> Bucky talked about the need for the process named
> above to be spontaneous(otherwise, forget about it).
> His best guess that it might happen through the
> understanding achieve using Synergetics.
>
> Someone is going to discover an artifact that will
> introduce billions(?) to Synergetics. Soon I hope.
> Otherwise, curtains.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:45:12 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
In-Reply-To:  <000f01c07063$5684f080$3b93a6d8@intch.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Kirby no offence but I don't need a bad chemist explaining in
>a bad way, non the less, bad physio-chemistry.
>
>Mark

I wasn't endorsing the content, just saying Jay has been
working hard on it (s'been awhile since I last visited),
and, yes, I think it's more reflective of the majority
view, however underinformed.  People don't study Bucky,
except a few odd-ball, fringey types on Geodesic :-D.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 12:35:03 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            27-DEC-2000 12:35
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 who's dumber, you or putative President W ?...
 don't answer, it's a triq ckuestion!
    a lot of these "just-so stories" about the supposedly new
 Administration of Brown Bros. Harriman (SkullnBones for the uninitiated),
 about there supposed slash-and-burn "republican" mentality,
 is obviously as erroneous about Bush, as it is about any other oilfolk,
 including the backing of an acknowlegded greeniac like Gore.
    nothing could be much clearer than his appointment
 of a pro-abortion environmentalist governor,
 to "balance" his choice of AG, who will probably be more involved
 in targetting the remaining resistance to the prior Bush Imperium
 -- along with protecting Ollie North's new ID, and
 providing him with Earth's Biggest Shredder.  (get down on your knees and
 thank God(s/whatever) that all of the LaRouche Seven have been paroled,
 and
 further pray that Clinton has the cajones to *pardon* them,
 as a little gift-that-he-may-not-spontaneously-appreciate
 for a would-be-, could-be-presedential George.  because,
 it's the bloody Bonesters that you want to have somewhat restrained,
 some how, and soon !-)

 now, I must agree with you about "fossil" fuels being hydrogenated;
 you're the first one to get that -- they ain't petrified!
    putrified, htough, perhaps, in some cases (normally,
 I love the smell of a gas station; don't you-all ?-)

 thus quoth:
  I just heard on CNN Financial News that the energy producers using wind
  power along with the other producers are going to be big winners. Also
 that
  environmental restrictions on generator plants will be dropped.

 nothing could be further from the truth.  did you hear that
 on the Wall Street futures market, or did you just think it,
 on your lonesome?...  I mean, the last sentence,
 in spite of California's problems with dereg,
 mysteriously all being heaped upon us at once for "maintenance" --
 in time for the "beyond petroleum" campaign of our masters!

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto (sik): fossilisation (sic)/
 bush/gore/nadir @ http://www.larouchespeaks.com ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 12:39:25 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            27-DEC-2000 12:39
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 no, not "all" of it;
 there is certainly fission in Earth, although
 mainstream geophysics (the mantle-is-solid-but-it's-not-
 "on-a-geological-scale"-of-course school;
 we just ditch the cognate about logic!) does not bother
 with fusion, there, currently (there's evidence
 at the midocoean rifts, however .-)

 thus quoth:
  > Solar enegy
  > (from whence all of our energy comes in the first

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto (sik): fossilisation (sic)/
 bush/gore/nadir @ http://www.larouchespeaks.com ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:07:24 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> credible.  The Malthusian paradigm is still the
> dominant
> one.

This is an understatement!

An example - I am visiting family this week. I don't
see my nieces or nephews very much but I do what can.
I was having a wonderful talk with 14 year old Sarah.
Of course, Bucky leaks into my mind and I suggest to
her that the best anyone can do is to think for
themselves. She enjoyed my encouragement and ideas.
THEN....her dad(my brother),having overhearing the
conversation from the next room, comes in and lets me
have it for, in his mind, corrupting his daughter. He
is outraged that I am suggesting that Sarah do her own
thinking. He says, "She's 14!" I'm thinking, yeah, I
know that. Anyway, maybe you get the picture.

So, be careful out there.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:13:17 -0500
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From:         Chuck Kessler <chuckkessler@MSN.COM>
Subject:      Re: the Aluminum President?
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test test
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Hutchings" <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2000 5:06 PM
Subject: the Aluminum President?


> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            26-DEC-2000 14:06
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  If Ronald Raegan was sometimes known as the Teflon President,
>  the putative residency of another George Bush, long since
>  having wrapped himself with Reagan's conservative aura, has
>  taken a special caldding, with the imposition
>  into Treasury Secretary Hamilton's office
>  of a "right-sizing" expert from Alcoa (aluminum manufacturer).
>
>  --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
>  The Three Phases of Exploitation
>  of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
>  bush/gore/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
>      http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
>       8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
>      17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
>      18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
>      19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
>      20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
>      21 -- OMAHA (25K)
>      22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
>      23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
>      24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
>      25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
>  * In April, with the fanfare of a beyond petroleum campaign,
>  bp (tm) merged with Arco (as with Amoco and Castrol, before)
>  to become the USAs #1 dystributor of gasoline and motor-oil;
>  in May, the price of petrol almost doubled.  Things that make ygo,
>  Hm; hm?  Merged with Internet Time,
>  our lordships have provided a year-zero, 2000 CCE (whereby,
>  1999 becometh 1bbp  or some thing .-)
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 20:38:20 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: the Aluminum President?
Comments: cc: chuckkessler@MSN.COM
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At 11:13 PM 12/27/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>test test

Give it a rest guy.  No one should need to test this much.

Kirby
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Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 21:45:29 -0800
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
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I hear a lot of pissing and moaning but not a single refutation
of anything Jay Hanson says on his web site. Did any of you even
take a look at his arguments? http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm


ENERGY QUALITY: The Critical Economic Variable

Different kinds of energy resources have fundamentally different
"qualities". For example, a BTU of oil (oil before it is burnt)
is fundamentally different than a BTU of coal. Oil has a higher
energy content per unit weight and burns at a higher temperature
than coal; it is easier to transport, and can be used in internal
combustion engines. A diesel locomotive wastes only one-fifth the
energy of a coal-powered steam engine to pull the same train.
Oil's many advantages provide 1.3 to 2.45 times more economic
value per kilocalorie than coal.

Oil is the most important form of energy we use, making up about
40 percent, or 152 quadrillion Btu, of the world energy supply
(DOE, 1998).  No other energy source equals oil's intrinsic
qualities of extractability, transportability, versatility and
cost.  These are the qualities that enabled oil to take over
from coal as the front-line energy source in the industrialized
world in the middle of this century, and these qualities are as
relevant today as they were then:

"If one considers the last one hundred years of the U.S.
experience, fuel use and economic output are highly correlated.
An important measure of fuel efficiency is the ratio of energy
use to the gross national product, E/GNP.  The E/GNP ratio has
fallen by about 42% since 1929.  We find that the improvement
in energy efficiency is due principally to three factors: (1)
shifts to higher quality fuels such as petroleum and primary
electricity; (2) shifts in energy use between households and
other sectors; and (3) higher fuel prices.  Energy quality is
by far the dominant factor."
http://dieoff.com/page17.htm#energy .

A BTU of sweet oil is fundamentally different than a BTU of
sour oil.  Sour oil is contaminated with sulfur and requires
special refineries with higher energy costs.  Some giant oil
fields (e.g., Manifa in Saudi Arabia) are "virtually unusable"
because they are contaminated with hydrogen sulfide and
vanadium (a heavy metal).
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/highlights/essay_fleming/

A BTU of coal is fundamentally different than a BTU of wood.
Coal contains more energy per pound than wood, which makes
coal more efficient to store and transport than wood.  Solar
radiation is fundamentally different than natural gas. Natural
gas is fundamentally different than oil shale, etc.  Moreover,
a new study shows that energy quality is still the critical
economic variable!  http://dieoff.com/cleveland.pdf .


HYDROGEN

The automobile industry is planning to put fuel-cell-powered
automobiles on the road by 2004. But the new cars won't be on
the road for long because these fuel cells use hydrogen via
methanol that is made from fossil fuel.

Hydrogen is not a "source" of energy -- it's an energy "carrier"
(like electricity). A chemical process known as "steam methane
reforming" produces about 95 percent of the hydrogen used in the
USA. A carbon-based feedstock (usually natural gas or coal) is
combined with steam under high pressure and temperature to
produce hydrogen at about a 35 percent energy loss. Methanol is
usually produced from natural gas or coal at a 32 to 44 percent
net energy loss. http://dieoff.com/page175.htm .

But how about hydrogen from water? The Schatz Energy Research
Center recently built a hydrogen generation station for use with
their fuel cell vehicles. According to Michael Winkler, hydrogen
generation is about 80% efficient using electricity to extract
hydrogen from water. The Center's fuel cells are about 50%
efficient. This leads to a total cycle efficiency of
approximately 40%. http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/index.shtml .

None of this includes the energy costs of either producing the
original electricity or manufacturing the equipment.  Moreover,
no renewable energy systems have the potential to generate more
than a tiny fraction of the electricity now being generated by
fossil fuels.


RENEWABLE ENERGY SYSTEMS

ENVIRONMENTAL ACCOUNTING: Emergy and Environmental Decision
Making by Howard T. Odum; Wiley, 1996 ;
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471114421

>From page 314, we find that in 1993 total USA fuel use was 4.78
x 10e24 sej (increasing about 2% per year ever since). From page
187 we find that total net solar radiation absorption for Alaska
and the lower 48 was 4.48 x 10e22 sej. In other words, the USA
is presently using fossil fuels more than 100 times greater than
the total absorption of solar radiation across the entire USA!


So-called "renewable" energy systems are evaluated differently
than "non-renewable" energy systems. In order to be "renewable",
an energy system must produce enough net energy to reproduce
itself.

A BTU of sunlight is fundamentally different than a BTU of
fossil fuel. Directly and indirectly it takes about 1,000
kilocal of sunlight to make a kilocalorie of organic matter,
about 40,000 to make a kilocalorie of coal, about 170,000
kilocal to make a kilocalorie of electrical power, and 10
million or more to support a typical kilocalorie of human
service. So when renewable energy systems are evaluated, both
inputs and outputs must be converted to solar eMjoules (or
"sej") and compared. (There are ten different sets of equations
to convert energy to sej: http://dieoff.com/emergy.pdf ) The
difference between the sej input and sej output is known as
the "net sej".

Calculations show that solar cells consume twice as much sej
as they produce. http://dieoff.com/pv.htm So even if all the
energy produced were put back into production, then one could
build only half as many cells each generation -- they are not
sustainable. Even if the sej efficiency of solar cells doubled,
ALL of the energy produced would have to be used to manufacture
new cells, which still leaves a zero net benefit to society!

Traditional measures of "net energy" for solar cells may be
improving but "net sej" may be getting worse because there are
ten different sets of equations to convert energy to sej. The
only way to know is to DO THE MATH.
http://dieoff.com/emergy.pdf

H.T. Odum's solar "eMergy" (eMbodied energy) measures all of
the energy (adjusted for quality) that went into the production
of a product. Odum's calculations show that the only forms of
alternative energy that can survive the exhaustion of fossil
fuel are burning biomass (wood, animal dung, or peat),
hydroelectric, geothermal in volcanic areas, and some wind
electrical generation. Nuclear power could be viable if one
could overcome the shortage of fuel. No other alternatives
(e.g., solar voltaic) produce a large enough net sej to be
sustainable. In short, there is no way out.

The fact that our society can not survive alternative energy
should come as no surprise, because only an idiot would believe
that windmills and solar panels can run bulldozers, elevators,
steel mills, glass factories, electric heat, air conditioning,
aircraft, automobiles, etc., AND still have enough energy left
over to support a corrupt political system, armies, etc.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:47:30 -0700
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From:         marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
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Yea I read it asshole!!!!!

Get an education in science!!!!!!!!!!!


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dexter Graphic" <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff


> I hear a lot of pissing and moaning but not a single refutation
> of anything Jay Hanson says on his web site. Did any of you even
> take a look at his arguments? http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm
>
>
> ENERGY QUALITY: The Critical Economic Variable
>
> Different kinds of energy resources have fundamentally different
> "qualities". For example, a BTU of oil (oil before it is burnt)
> is fundamentally different than a BTU of coal. Oil has a higher
> energy content per unit weight and burns at a higher temperature
> than coal; it is easier to transport, and can be used in internal
> combustion engines. A diesel locomotive wastes only one-fifth the
> energy of a coal-powered steam engine to pull the same train.
> Oil's many advantages provide 1.3 to 2.45 times more economic
> value per kilocalorie than coal.
>
> Oil is the most important form of energy we use, making up about
> 40 percent, or 152 quadrillion Btu, of the world energy supply
> (DOE, 1998).  No other energy source equals oil's intrinsic
> qualities of extractability, transportability, versatility and
> cost.  These are the qualities that enabled oil to take over
> from coal as the front-line energy source in the industrialized
> world in the middle of this century, and these qualities are as
> relevant today as they were then:
>
> "If one considers the last one hundred years of the U.S.
> experience, fuel use and economic output are highly correlated.
> An important measure of fuel efficiency is the ratio of energy
> use to the gross national product, E/GNP.  The E/GNP ratio has
> fallen by about 42% since 1929.  We find that the improvement
> in energy efficiency is due principally to three factors: (1)
> shifts to higher quality fuels such as petroleum and primary
> electricity; (2) shifts in energy use between households and
> other sectors; and (3) higher fuel prices.  Energy quality is
> by far the dominant factor."
> http://dieoff.com/page17.htm#energy .
>
> A BTU of sweet oil is fundamentally different than a BTU of
> sour oil.  Sour oil is contaminated with sulfur and requires
> special refineries with higher energy costs.  Some giant oil
> fields (e.g., Manifa in Saudi Arabia) are "virtually unusable"
> because they are contaminated with hydrogen sulfide and
> vanadium (a heavy metal).
> http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/highlights/essay_fleming/
>
> A BTU of coal is fundamentally different than a BTU of wood.
> Coal contains more energy per pound than wood, which makes
> coal more efficient to store and transport than wood.  Solar
> radiation is fundamentally different than natural gas. Natural
> gas is fundamentally different than oil shale, etc.  Moreover,
> a new study shows that energy quality is still the critical
> economic variable!  http://dieoff.com/cleveland.pdf .
>
>
> HYDROGEN
>
> The automobile industry is planning to put fuel-cell-powered
> automobiles on the road by 2004. But the new cars won't be on
> the road for long because these fuel cells use hydrogen via
> methanol that is made from fossil fuel.
>
> Hydrogen is not a "source" of energy -- it's an energy "carrier"
> (like electricity). A chemical process known as "steam methane
> reforming" produces about 95 percent of the hydrogen used in the
> USA. A carbon-based feedstock (usually natural gas or coal) is
> combined with steam under high pressure and temperature to
> produce hydrogen at about a 35 percent energy loss. Methanol is
> usually produced from natural gas or coal at a 32 to 44 percent
> net energy loss. http://dieoff.com/page175.htm .
>
> But how about hydrogen from water? The Schatz Energy Research
> Center recently built a hydrogen generation station for use with
> their fuel cell vehicles. According to Michael Winkler, hydrogen
> generation is about 80% efficient using electricity to extract
> hydrogen from water. The Center's fuel cells are about 50%
> efficient. This leads to a total cycle efficiency of
> approximately 40%. http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/index.shtml .
>
> None of this includes the energy costs of either producing the
> original electricity or manufacturing the equipment.  Moreover,
> no renewable energy systems have the potential to generate more
> than a tiny fraction of the electricity now being generated by
> fossil fuels.
>
>
> RENEWABLE ENERGY SYSTEMS
>
> ENVIRONMENTAL ACCOUNTING: Emergy and Environmental Decision
> Making by Howard T. Odum; Wiley, 1996 ;
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471114421
>
> >From page 314, we find that in 1993 total USA fuel use was 4.78
> x 10e24 sej (increasing about 2% per year ever since). From page
> 187 we find that total net solar radiation absorption for Alaska
> and the lower 48 was 4.48 x 10e22 sej. In other words, the USA
> is presently using fossil fuels more than 100 times greater than
> the total absorption of solar radiation across the entire USA!
>
>
> So-called "renewable" energy systems are evaluated differently
> than "non-renewable" energy systems. In order to be "renewable",
> an energy system must produce enough net energy to reproduce
> itself.
>
> A BTU of sunlight is fundamentally different than a BTU of
> fossil fuel. Directly and indirectly it takes about 1,000
> kilocal of sunlight to make a kilocalorie of organic matter,
> about 40,000 to make a kilocalorie of coal, about 170,000
> kilocal to make a kilocalorie of electrical power, and 10
> million or more to support a typical kilocalorie of human
> service. So when renewable energy systems are evaluated, both
> inputs and outputs must be converted to solar eMjoules (or
> "sej") and compared. (There are ten different sets of equations
> to convert energy to sej: http://dieoff.com/emergy.pdf ) The
> difference between the sej input and sej output is known as
> the "net sej".
>
> Calculations show that solar cells consume twice as much sej
> as they produce. http://dieoff.com/pv.htm So even if all the
> energy produced were put back into production, then one could
> build only half as many cells each generation -- they are not
> sustainable. Even if the sej efficiency of solar cells doubled,
> ALL of the energy produced would have to be used to manufacture
> new cells, which still leaves a zero net benefit to society!
>
> Traditional measures of "net energy" for solar cells may be
> improving but "net sej" may be getting worse because there are
> ten different sets of equations to convert energy to sej. The
> only way to know is to DO THE MATH.
> http://dieoff.com/emergy.pdf
>
> H.T. Odum's solar "eMergy" (eMbodied energy) measures all of
> the energy (adjusted for quality) that went into the production
> of a product. Odum's calculations show that the only forms of
> alternative energy that can survive the exhaustion of fossil
> fuel are burning biomass (wood, animal dung, or peat),
> hydroelectric, geothermal in volcanic areas, and some wind
> electrical generation. Nuclear power could be viable if one
> could overcome the shortage of fuel. No other alternatives
> (e.g., solar voltaic) produce a large enough net sej to be
> sustainable. In short, there is no way out.
>
> The fact that our society can not survive alternative energy
> should come as no surprise, because only an idiot would believe
> that windmills and solar panels can run bulldozers, elevators,
> steel mills, glass factories, electric heat, air conditioning,
> aircraft, automobiles, etc., AND still have enough energy left
> over to support a corrupt political system, armies, etc.
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 00:51:29 -0600
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From:         Charles J Knight <c.knight@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
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> I hear a lot of pissing and moaning but not a single refutation
> of anything Jay Hanson says on his web site. Did any of you even
> take a look at his arguments? http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm

OK, so you want to play that game.  See below.

> Different kinds of energy resources have fundamentally different
> "qualities". For example, a BTU of oil (oil before it is burnt)

An interesting theory, and an interesting point.  BTUs are not
different, but the usefulness of the extractable energy from each
source is.  Fascinating take on a rather stale subject.

> is fundamentally different than a BTU of coal. Oil has a higher
> energy content per unit weight and burns at a higher temperature
> than coal; it is easier to transport, and can be used in internal

Oil is easier to transport because it is a liquid, and an infrastructure
already exists for its transport.  Transport of coal is extremely well
developed, especially in the northern United States...given an
appropriate infrastructure I think this point could be minimized, and
possibly eliminated.

> combustion engines. A diesel locomotive wastes only one-fifth the
> energy of a coal-powered steam engine to pull the same train.

This also has to do with engineering...more efficient coal systems
could be easily engineered, and possibly give oil a run for their
money.

Steam systems, however, are a type of external combustion engine
which means that they exhibit fuel flexibility...something an ICE
cannot boast.

> Oil is the most important form of energy we use, making up about
> 40 percent, or 152 quadrillion Btu, of the world energy supply

It is the most commonly used -- not necessarily the most important.

> "If one considers the last one hundred years of the U.S.
> experience, fuel use and economic output are highly correlated.

If one considers the transition into an information based society,
and looks at more recent figures, one realizes that in the last 2
years our energy usage per dollar generated has actually gone
down significantly.  It has to do, not with an increase in energy
efficiency, but with a shift away from manufacturing.

> coal more efficient to store and transport than wood.  Solar
> radiation is fundamentally different than natural gas. Natural

Agreed here...

> HYDROGEN

Goody, one of my favorite subjects!

> The automobile industry is planning to put fuel-cell-powered
> automobiles on the road by 2004. But the new cars won't be on
> the road for long because these fuel cells use hydrogen via
> methanol that is made from fossil fuel.

Correct...or, if Chrysler has its way, hydrogen directly extracted
from petrol.

> Hydrogen is not a "source" of energy -- it's an energy "carrier"
> (like electricity). A chemical process known as "steam methane

None of our "fuels" are energy sources.  Petrochemicals are
simply energy storage mechanisms as well -- storing solar and/or
geothermal energy, collected over eons.

> reforming" produces about 95 percent of the hydrogen used in the
> USA. A carbon-based feedstock (usually natural gas or coal) is

Catalytic cracking is another name for it -- the use of heat, and
the addition of H2 and O2 to the mix, in the presence of a catalyst
(iron or ferrous alloys) is what reduces heavier petrochemicals to
lighter ones.  It's also the process that converts "sludge" to gasoline.

> generation is about 80% efficient using electricity to extract
> hydrogen from water. The Center's fuel cells are about 50%
> efficient. This leads to a total cycle efficiency of
> approximately 40%. http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/index.shtml .

Sounds about right -- traditional ICE engines are somewhere between
20 and 40 percent efficient, depending on design, tolerances, and
size.

> None of this includes the energy costs of either producing the
> original electricity or manufacturing the equipment.  Moreover,
> no renewable energy systems have the potential to generate more
> than a tiny fraction of the electricity now being generated by
> fossil fuels.

Not true -- the only way this statement would be true is to say that
existing installed capacity is incapable of replacing fossil fuels.

> So-called "renewable" energy systems are evaluated differently
> than "non-renewable" energy systems. In order to be "renewable",
> an energy system must produce enough net energy to reproduce
> itself.

What?!  Renewable means that it's a source that's easily replaced
in a short amount of time.  Oil takes milennia or eons to form
naturally -- we will use it up before it's replaced naturally.

> A BTU of sunlight is fundamentally different than a BTU of
> fossil fuel. Directly and indirectly it takes about 1,000

Huh?  A BTU is a BTU is a BTU.  You're talking about the
concentration of energy as you move up the food chain.  Or as you
transform one form of energy into another...sunlight into electricity,
for example.

BTUs have nothing to do with efficiency.

> The fact that our society can not survive alternative energy
> should come as no surprise, because only an idiot would believe
> that windmills and solar panels can run bulldozers, elevators,
> steel mills, glass factories, electric heat, air conditioning,
> aircraft, automobiles, etc., AND still have enough energy left
> over to support a corrupt political system, armies, etc.

So this means that we need to continue polluting the planet and
burning (not the most efficient way to tap the energy stored in fossil
fuels) petrol, so that we can maintain our gluttonous way of life?  If
that's genuinely true, then perhaps our siciety (as we know it) needs
to be allowed to die!

Thankfully, I could easily come to a different conclusion.  The
conclusion is that minimal impact energy sources can supply (x)
amount of energy.  We can increase the efficiency of our machinery
and "do more with less."

Coal fed steam heating systems built at the turn of the last century
are not as efficient as coal fed heating systems designed and built
today.  Yet they're still used in many homes.  Many homes are
still uninsulated.  Many homes are lacking natural light, which requires
energy intensive artificial lighting systems.  For God's sake, put in a
window!

In Texas, heating is not a big problem -- we had air-conditioning weather
until November.  But, the most popular color for roofing is dark gray.
How much energy do you save if you install a white, energy reflecting
roof?  Additionally, my family just installed a new air conditioner --
our
electric bills were literally cut in half overnight.  Sound more
efficient to
you?

Here's an example.  Soccer moms routinely drive 12mpg SUVs 2 blocks
to pick up a gallon of milk.  If they have to drive, why don't they use
something that gets 50mpg...space for a gallon of milk is no problem
in even the smallest cars.  Or, here's a thought, why not bicycle the
2 blocks -- or even WALK!  Why drive the biggest and most inefficient
mode of transportation ever invented?  Ooh...in case it's raining, they
do
make fully enclosed bicycles and tricycles, that are usually referred to
as "velomobiles."

Here's another example...there are people living completely off the grid,
with the same basic lifestyle that their neighbors enjoy.  It *is*
possible to generate sufficient energy to maintain this lifestyle, on
a normal city lot.  Note...this does not include such unusual sources
as micro-hydro or geothermal -- we're talking about simple photovoltaic
or solar thermal systems that can work virtually anywhere.

If it's possible to do this for one family, it's possible to do it for
every
family.  A national grid, feeding homes, would not even be a necessity
at that point.

My point is, it's relatively simple to adjust our lifestyle to use less
energy...if everyone in America did this (the highest energy use per
capita is in the States) then global energy usage would be cut
tremendously.

     -- Chuck Knight
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Date:         Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:41:21 -0800
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
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> > The fact that our society can not survive alternative energy
> > should come as no surprise, because only an idiot would believe
> > that windmills and solar panels can run bulldozers, elevators,
> > steel mills, glass factories, electric heat, air conditioning,
> > aircraft, automobiles, etc., AND still have enough energy left
> > over to support a corrupt political system, armies, etc.
>
> So this means that we need to continue polluting the planet and
> burning (not the most efficient way to tap the energy stored in fossil
> fuels) petrol, so that we can maintain our gluttonous way of life?  If
> that's genuinely true, then perhaps our society (as we know it) needs
> to be allowed to die!
>
> Thankfully, I could easily come to a different conclusion.  The
> conclusion is that minimal impact energy sources can supply (x)
> amount of energy.  We can increase the efficiency of our machinery
> and "do more with less."
>
> ...
>
> My point is, it's relatively simple to adjust our lifestyle to use less
> energy...if everyone in America did this (the highest energy use per
> capita is in the States) then global energy usage would be cut
> tremendously.
>
>      -- Chuck Knight

I don't think Jay is arguing that human beings can't live a more
energy efficient lifestyle; he is saying that our economic, political,
legal, and philosophical systems are incapable of functioning without
the highly concentrated power which oil provides. Please look at the
larger issues raised at http://www.dieoff.org (It's a different page
at the same web site I referred to before.)

Best Regards,
Dexter Graphic
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Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 05:12:32 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
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> The fact that our society can not survive
> alternative energy
> should come as no surprise, because only an idiot

Count me an idiot then if you have then need to
classify me.

> would believe
> that windmills and solar panels can run bulldozers,
> elevators,
> steel mills, glass factories, electric heat, air
> conditioning,
> aircraft, automobiles, etc., AND still have enough
> energy left
> over to support a corrupt political system, armies,
et
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Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 05:29:19 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
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> energy efficient lifestyle; he is saying that our
> economic, political,
> legal, and philosophical systems are incapable of
> functioning

They need to stop functioning,if we are to make it
past the threshold of permitted ignorence. We need
artifacts that do more with less. The sun will provide
enough juice, with ease.

without
> the highly concentrated power which oil provides.
> Please look at the
> larger issues raised at http://www.dieoff.org (It's
> a different page
> at the same web site I referred to before.)
>
> Best Regards,
> Dexter Graphic
> .
> ferred to before.)
>
> Best Regards,
> Dexter Graphic
> .
>
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Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:16:45 -0800
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From:         Mark Siegmund <siegmund@THEGRID.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
In-Reply-To:  <001501c0709a$0d5f5580$3b93a6d8@intch.com>
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mark, just don't think you need to use that kind of language on the list...
mark

> From: marksomers <marksomers@GOLD-ARTS.COM>
> Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
> <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
> Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 23:47:30 -0700
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
>
> Yea I read it asshole!!!!!
>
> Get an education in science!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dexter Graphic" <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
> To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2000 10:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
>
>
>> I hear a lot of pissing and moaning but not a single refutation
>> of anything Jay Hanson says on his web site. Did any of you even
>> take a look at his arguments? http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm
>>
>>
>> ENERGY QUALITY: The Critical Economic Variable
>>
>> Different kinds of energy resources have fundamentally different
>> "qualities". For example, a BTU of oil (oil before it is burnt)
>> is fundamentally different than a BTU of coal. Oil has a higher
>> energy content per unit weight and burns at a higher temperature
>> than coal; it is easier to transport, and can be used in internal
>> combustion engines. A diesel locomotive wastes only one-fifth the
>> energy of a coal-powered steam engine to pull the same train.
>> Oil's many advantages provide 1.3 to 2.45 times more economic
>> value per kilocalorie than coal.
>>
>> Oil is the most important form of energy we use, making up about
>> 40 percent, or 152 quadrillion Btu, of the world energy supply
>> (DOE, 1998).  No other energy source equals oil's intrinsic
>> qualities of extractability, transportability, versatility and
>> cost.  These are the qualities that enabled oil to take over
>> from coal as the front-line energy source in the industrialized
>> world in the middle of this century, and these qualities are as
>> relevant today as they were then:
>>
>> "If one considers the last one hundred years of the U.S.
>> experience, fuel use and economic output are highly correlated.
>> An important measure of fuel efficiency is the ratio of energy
>> use to the gross national product, E/GNP.  The E/GNP ratio has
>> fallen by about 42% since 1929.  We find that the improvement
>> in energy efficiency is due principally to three factors: (1)
>> shifts to higher quality fuels such as petroleum and primary
>> electricity; (2) shifts in energy use between households and
>> other sectors; and (3) higher fuel prices.  Energy quality is
>> by far the dominant factor."
>> http://dieoff.com/page17.htm#energy .
>>
>> A BTU of sweet oil is fundamentally different than a BTU of
>> sour oil.  Sour oil is contaminated with sulfur and requires
>> special refineries with higher energy costs.  Some giant oil
>> fields (e.g., Manifa in Saudi Arabia) are "virtually unusable"
>> because they are contaminated with hydrogen sulfide and
>> vanadium (a heavy metal).
>> http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/highlights/essay_fleming/
>>
>> A BTU of coal is fundamentally different than a BTU of wood.
>> Coal contains more energy per pound than wood, which makes
>> coal more efficient to store and transport than wood.  Solar
>> radiation is fundamentally different than natural gas. Natural
>> gas is fundamentally different than oil shale, etc.  Moreover,
>> a new study shows that energy quality is still the critical
>> economic variable!  http://dieoff.com/cleveland.pdf .
>>
>>
>> HYDROGEN
>>
>> The automobile industry is planning to put fuel-cell-powered
>> automobiles on the road by 2004. But the new cars won't be on
>> the road for long because these fuel cells use hydrogen via
>> methanol that is made from fossil fuel.
>>
>> Hydrogen is not a "source" of energy -- it's an energy "carrier"
>> (like electricity). A chemical process known as "steam methane
>> reforming" produces about 95 percent of the hydrogen used in the
>> USA. A carbon-based feedstock (usually natural gas or coal) is
>> combined with steam under high pressure and temperature to
>> produce hydrogen at about a 35 percent energy loss. Methanol is
>> usually produced from natural gas or coal at a 32 to 44 percent
>> net energy loss. http://dieoff.com/page175.htm .
>>
>> But how about hydrogen from water? The Schatz Energy Research
>> Center recently built a hydrogen generation station for use with
>> their fuel cell vehicles. According to Michael Winkler, hydrogen
>> generation is about 80% efficient using electricity to extract
>> hydrogen from water. The Center's fuel cells are about 50%
>> efficient. This leads to a total cycle efficiency of
>> approximately 40%. http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/index.shtml .
>>
>> None of this includes the energy costs of either producing the
>> original electricity or manufacturing the equipment.  Moreover,
>> no renewable energy systems have the potential to generate more
>> than a tiny fraction of the electricity now being generated by
>> fossil fuels.
>>
>>
>> RENEWABLE ENERGY SYSTEMS
>>
>> ENVIRONMENTAL ACCOUNTING: Emergy and Environmental Decision
>> Making by Howard T. Odum; Wiley, 1996 ;
>> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0471114421
>>
>>> From page 314, we find that in 1993 total USA fuel use was 4.78
>> x 10e24 sej (increasing about 2% per year ever since). From page
>> 187 we find that total net solar radiation absorption for Alaska
>> and the lower 48 was 4.48 x 10e22 sej. In other words, the USA
>> is presently using fossil fuels more than 100 times greater than
>> the total absorption of solar radiation across the entire USA!
>>
>>
>> So-called "renewable" energy systems are evaluated differently
>> than "non-renewable" energy systems. In order to be "renewable",
>> an energy system must produce enough net energy to reproduce
>> itself.
>>
>> A BTU of sunlight is fundamentally different than a BTU of
>> fossil fuel. Directly and indirectly it takes about 1,000
>> kilocal of sunlight to make a kilocalorie of organic matter,
>> about 40,000 to make a kilocalorie of coal, about 170,000
>> kilocal to make a kilocalorie of electrical power, and 10
>> million or more to support a typical kilocalorie of human
>> service. So when renewable energy systems are evaluated, both
>> inputs and outputs must be converted to solar eMjoules (or
>> "sej") and compared. (There are ten different sets of equations
>> to convert energy to sej: http://dieoff.com/emergy.pdf ) The
>> difference between the sej input and sej output is known as
>> the "net sej".
>>
>> Calculations show that solar cells consume twice as much sej
>> as they produce. http://dieoff.com/pv.htm So even if all the
>> energy produced were put back into production, then one could
>> build only half as many cells each generation -- they are not
>> sustainable. Even if the sej efficiency of solar cells doubled,
>> ALL of the energy produced would have to be used to manufacture
>> new cells, which still leaves a zero net benefit to society!
>>
>> Traditional measures of "net energy" for solar cells may be
>> improving but "net sej" may be getting worse because there are
>> ten different sets of equations to convert energy to sej. The
>> only way to know is to DO THE MATH.
>> http://dieoff.com/emergy.pdf
>>
>> H.T. Odum's solar "eMergy" (eMbodied energy) measures all of
>> the energy (adjusted for quality) that went into the production
>> of a product. Odum's calculations show that the only forms of
>> alternative energy that can survive the exhaustion of fossil
>> fuel are burning biomass (wood, animal dung, or peat),
>> hydroelectric, geothermal in volcanic areas, and some wind
>> electrical generation. Nuclear power could be viable if one
>> could overcome the shortage of fuel. No other alternatives
>> (e.g., solar voltaic) produce a large enough net sej to be
>> sustainable. In short, there is no way out.
>>
>> The fact that our society can not survive alternative energy
>> should come as no surprise, because only an idiot would believe
>> that windmills and solar panels can run bulldozers, elevators,
>> steel mills, glass factories, electric heat, air conditioning,
>> aircraft, automobiles, etc., AND still have enough energy left
>> over to support a corrupt political system, armies, etc.
>>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:58:11 -0700
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From:         "Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@TNC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
In-Reply-To:  <200012280503.WAA24131@sunny.andor.net>
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Jay Hanson also has the energyresources list on egroups
<http://www.egroups.com/group/energyresources>.
    Ken

>Date:    Wed, 27 Dec 2000 10:36:25 -0800
>From:    Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
>Subject: Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
>
>>"DIEOFF"????? What's up with this.  Darwinian
>>leftovers?
>>
>
>Jay Hanson has been working on this website for quite some time.
>
><>
>that we'd actually avail of this opportunity.  What'd he call
>it? oh yeah: "touch 'n go".
>
>Fuller was not entirely optimistic, said so numerous times.
>
>Kirby
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Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:44:44 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
In-Reply-To:  <20001228132919.23148.qmail@web4402.mail.yahoo.com>
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>They need to stop functioning,if we are to make it
>past the threshold of permitted ignorence. We need
>artifacts that do more with less. The sun will provide
>enough juice, with ease.
>

I have a userful Econ-style graphic at
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gst2.html
-- best viewed in 800 x 600 or higher --
which shows a "threshold of ignorance"
(one might call it).  As of the 1970s,
our technological ignorance was reduced
to where caring for the world's billions
was a practical feasibility -- but our
political and/or self-management know-how
still lags (that's not shown directly --
except in terms of "opportunity cost").

Kirby
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Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:40:17 -0600
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From:         Tony Kalenak <tkalenak@TEAM-PSC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
MIME-Version: 1.0
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 Your niece has a hard row to hoe. I grew up in a similar stiffling
enviromnment. I remember bring severly repremanded for bring up Desmond
Morris' "Naked Ape", While my father insisted (AND STILL DOES) on playing
the part of the open-minded intellectual.

Emerson:
"These are the voices we here in solitude, but they grow faint and inaudible
as we enter the world. Society everywhere is in conspiracy against the
manhood of everyone of its members. Society is a joint stock company, in
which the members agree for the better securing of his bread to each
stockholder to surrender the liberty and culture of the eater. The virture
in most request is conformity. Self-reliance is its aversion. It loves not
realiities and creators but names and customs."



-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Fischbeck
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Sent: 12/27/00 10:07 PM
Subject: Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

> credible.  The Malthusian paradigm is still the
> dominant
> one.

This is an understatement!

An example - I am visiting family this week. I don't
see my nieces or nephews very much but I do what can.
I was having a wonderful talk with 14 year old Sarah.
Of course, Bucky leaks into my mind and I suggest to
her that the best anyone can do is to think for
themselves. She enjoyed my encouragement and ideas.
THEN....her dad(my brother),having overhearing the
conversation from the next room, comes in and lets me
have it for, in his mind, corrupting his daughter. He
is outraged that I am suggesting that Sarah do her own
thinking. He says, "She's 14!" I'm thinking, yeah, I
know that. Anyway, maybe you get the picture.

So, be careful out there.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:40:30 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            28-DEC-2000  9:40
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 thanks, sir Knight, for excerpting the essential portion;
 I still want to get deeper into Lovins' _Soft Energy Paths_,
 to compare with the Higher Quality Sources of Energy --
 as we call them in the nuke-yellar field!
    granted that hydrocarbons, like wood, are "carriers" or batteries
 of energy, we still have to deal with the connundrum
 that has been foisted by the dog-trainers of the (supposedly, according
 to the blaring media) incoming (Scudlike) Administration, and
 its putative headpiece who was brung-up in the Oil Patch, along
 with "active president Cheney
 along with "active president Dick," managerial workers both
 for Big Fossil, as they fashion themselves.
    that is to say, the "Mobilsaurus" sort of cartoon-reality,
 that "petroleum" is somehow "reserved" of, by and for
 to be "collected over eons," none of which appear,
 tenmporarily, in the immediate future: to wit,
 *because* they are fossilised in a clause of all contracts signed
 with Obnoxico, they are therefore definitionally non "renewable"
 for the duration of the contract (soon, for ever,
 given the procliviites of both the RNC and the DNC).
    (note the apparent useage in the "Energy Quality" article,
 aside from an ambiguous use of quotes:
 it is manifestly so that a lot of the economic studies
 of "renewables" had a built-in subsidy, compared
 with the "non" renewables, but that was somewhat true
 of the whole industrial revolution, especially as takedn
 by environmentalists' "external costing" -- or Bucky's.  even so,
 his second use of "renewables" was clearer in intent,
 that of self-reproductive (or, as they say,
 before taking it out to the street,
 "go **** yourself, Honey" !-)

 I only question his saying-so, that nukes have a problem
 with the supply of fuel; we toss most of it, away, as if
 it was so dangerous!
    also, I have to deplore the usual denigration of ICE,
 the internal combustion engine; what are mitochondria, but
 a burning gift from your maternal unit?

 --The Duke of Oil!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 09:58:29 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: [Q-P] Science Decmeber 15, 2000

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            28-DEC-2000  9:58
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 re 6. The Causes of Warming pp2081-3, 2133-7;
 the populist assertion that "anthropogenic forcings..have played
 a dominant role in warming observed in recent decades" is based
 primarily upon "observations" of computerized simulacra,
 themselves based upon extremely narrow slections
 from extant reords, only in part due to the needs
 of a supposedly hard-as-nails statistical analysis of numerical data,
 which usaully throws-out centuries of qualtitative stuff, even as
 it arbitrarily chops-up (and -off) the acceptable dataset
 of continental temperatures (e.g.) of the last century-or-so,
 accoring to the design of the current study.
    the UNIPCC apparently only *says* that it has compensated
 for urban heat islands (UHIs), or rather has provided a few guidelines
 on what should be done.  perhaps this "objective/concensus" body, sic,
 could address the well-known anomoly of supposedly "overall" warming,
 that there is a lot more of it at night, in winter, and
 after the sun goes "dwon" in January in the Northern Temperate Zone;
 eh?...  the fact that UHI modellers do not bother
 with the burning of "fossils" in the city, may be a related problemma;
 oh?

 --The Duke of Oil!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm

 oh, the recent issue of Nature also questions the "coupling"
 of CO2 with ice ages, not just the current one, and
 it also has that article about stomata in mo'CO2!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:46:16 -0800
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From:         rachel benton <rbento01@CCSF.CC.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
In-Reply-To:  <200012281740.eBSHeUL24334@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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unsubsribe
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Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:27:48 -0600
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From:         Charles J Knight <c.knight@JUNO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
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>     also, I have to deplore the usual denigration of ICE,
>  the internal combustion engine;

Uh, I do not have anything against a proper use of the ICE.  It is
a remarkable piece of technology, and built properly it could even
run on coal dust or wood gas.  But, as it is commonly designed,
it relies on heavily refined petroleum, as its exclusive fuel.

It is also inherently limited by the Carnot cycle...other types of
conversion (petrol energy to mechanical energy) can exceed the
efficiency of an ICE.  Electric motor run by a fuel cell springs to
mind...

External combustion engines have one decided advantage -- they
can run on any fuel, and some run simply on a "source of heat."
I know it's a small distinction, but it may become an important one
in the future.

     -- Chuck Knight
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:37:55 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            28-DEC-2000 11:37
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 le cycle du Carnot is fundamental to thermodynamics,
 with the "laws" thereof simply algebraical agglomerations,
 just like Newton's were derived wholly from Kepler's orbital constraints.
    it has nothing to do with "ICE" per se, so,
 what is your pointing?

 thus quoth:
  It is also inherently limited by the Carnot cycle...other types of
  conversion (petrol energy to mechanical energy) can exceed the

 now, re the new Aluminum-cum-e-cash Czar, O'Neil
 --assuming that Congress does whatever they're told to do,
 come the 20th-- see this:
   4:355) 28-DEC-2000 8:35 Brian Quincy Hutchings

 sorry, i

 seem to have developed a Unified Don Field Theory
 of the directorship at WAND: there are two, seperate Dons,
 a Sir Brent, and a Condoleeza (the latter two who left,
 efore the officail announcement of the G2Kcmte; also note that
 Condi was requisitioned to Stanford (as Provost,
 what ever in Hell that is) before she had to be pardoned
 with the rest of the Iran-Contra goonsquad of the prior Bush Imperium).
         we can also add, if needed -- if they can't be kept out
 of this roster for any plausible deniability -- Chair d'El Phed Volcker
 and just-and-future CEO d'WAND, O'Neil.  well,
 what gives?

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto (sik): fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://larouchespeaks.com ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
     INTRODUCTION: An American Caligula? (47K)
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
     EPILOG: Shag U.S. with a Spoon, Austin Powers? (0K)

 if anyone at ISD cahnges this, from my intro file, again,
 they're also getting sued!
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 21:59:08 -0600
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From:         Charles J Knight <c.knight@JUNO.COM>
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>  le cycle du Carnot is fundamental to thermodynamics,
>  with the "laws" thereof simply algebraical agglomerations,
>  just like Newton's were derived wholly from Kepler's orbital
> constraints.

Very correct -- glad you are familiar with it.  It makes this
discussion go much more smoothly.

>     it has nothing to do with "ICE" per se, so,
>  what is your pointing?

Simple.  Given the extraction of energy as heat, through the
burning of petrochemicals, it is inherently limited by the Carnot
cycle.

Same thing for external combustion engines...but fewer people
understand them.  The problem is *burning* the fuel, though.
That's where the limits come in.

If different approaches are pursued (i.e. the direct conversion
from chemical to electrical energy via fuel cells) then the Carnot
cycle is "sidestepped."

According to figures from Chrysler, fuel cells already have the
ability to extract roughly twice the useful energy from any quantity
of hydrocarbons, as would be extracted by burning them in a
traditional engine.

     -- Chuck Knight
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:36:48 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      deathwish 2000 -- only 3 more shopping days!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            28-DEC-2000 13:36
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 PEN
 Please enter your response:
 >
 >a-hem, ISD personnel -- I mean,
 >City Manager:
 >
 >someone at ISD made it so that
 >I cannot "change my information" in my intro file,
 >at list from the GUI.  who did that, and why, and
 >when will it be fixed?
 >
 >there are weveral references that I'd input to it,
 >when I did not realize this was going on,
 >for a week or so, that just dysappeared.
 >        Irealize that the last issue
 >of Seascape continued the tradition of sub-rosa taking-down
 >of PEN, whihc is the prerogative of the City Manager, but
 >shouldn't there be some sort of announcement, that
 >the Wunnerful Info Net is *replacing* PEN,
 >sooner than later?

 --thanks,bri
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:02:30 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff
In-Reply-To:  <20001228.215955.1096.0.c.knight@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> According to figures from Chrysler, fuel cells already have the
> ability to extract roughly twice the useful energy from any
> quantity of hydrocarbons, as would be extracted by burning them
> in a traditional engine.

Do these produce AC or DC and will it be possible to use them to
replace the megawatt output of conventional power plants?

For IC motor replacement, the total efficiency of the system must
be compared not just the fuel cell phase. The electricity which
is produced by the fuel cells in your example above must then be
stored and transported (ie batteries) to do useful work such as
powering an automobile. And you have to figure in the efficiency
of the electric motor that drives the car. The total efficiency
of the system then drops below that of direct fossil fuel IC.

See http://www.dieoff.org/page170.htm (eMergy Evaluation)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:22:18 +0000
Reply-To:     SpaceshipEarth@mail.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM
Subject:      compressed air cars
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There's been a lot in the news lately about compressed air
vehicles. Mexico is adding compressed air taxies to the streets.
Here's one link. Should be able to find many more with a search.
Talk to almost anybody about energy alternatives and they have no
concepts of energy other than big oil. The oil industry must love
the fact that the vast majority of humanity is completely
ignorant of the many options we have available. There has also
been a lot in the news lately about Iceland's many years
experience in developing hydrogen fuel. The blinders of ignorance
are slowly being removed, too slowly!

e.Volution compressed air car, fill from an airstation in as
little as three minutes, or  plug in and self-charge in four
hours. Able to travel up to 200km (120 miles) for only 30 US
cents. Expected to sell for a bout $10,000 US in South Africa.
"Zero Pollution Motors" has the rights to manufacture
the car in South Africa. The piston engine is powered by the
release of compressed air which is stored in tanks, very similar
to scuba diving tanks, attached to the underside of the car.  The
body of the vehicle weighs only 700kg, and the engine itself is a
mere 35kg. This means that the vehicle can theoretically be
driven for up to 10 hours in an urban environment at an average
speed of 80km/h. Currently two factories in France with five
factories planned for Mexico and Spain, with three in Australia.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_988000/988265.stm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:29:53 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      gOd
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Dexter-This is a snip from your book. You are the
urantiaperson, right?  Now, I have no trouble with
people being as spiritual as they'd like to be.
However, are you sure this isn't a bunch of
pseudoscience? Talk about word salad!

I question whether your intention in this group isn't
mostly about promoting this particular
"interpretation" of Universe. Keep to science, if you
don't mind, please. At least here.


          "Always remember: Potential infinity is
absolute and inseparable from eternity. Actual
infinity in time can never be anything but partial and
must therefore be nonabsolute; neither can infinity of
actual personality be absolute except in unqualified
Deity. And it is the differential of infinity
potential in the Unqualified Absolute and the Deity
Absolute that eternalizes the Universal Absolute,
thereby making it cosmically possible to have material
universes in space and spiritually possible to have
finite personalities in time.

          The finite can coexist in the cosmos along
with the Infinite only because the associative
presence of the Universal Absolute so perfectly
equalizes the tensions between time and eternity,
finity and infinity, reality potential and reality
actuality, Paradise and space, man and God.
Associatively the Universal Absolute constitutes the
identification of the zone of progressing evolutional
reality existent in the time-space, and in the
transcended time-space, universes of subinfinite Deity
manifestation.


          The Universal Absolute is the potential of
the static-dynamic Deity functionally realizable on
time-eternity levels as finite-absolute values and as
possible of experiential-existential approach. This
incomprehensible aspect of Deity may be static,
potential, and associative but is not experientially
creative or evolutional as concerns the intelligent
personalities now functioning in the master universe."

>From the forward of  Urantia.

Of course, you can think what you like.

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:50:22 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: New to List
Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004D_01C07185.24B67420"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C07185.24B67420
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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It's the former Citizens State Bank, Oklahoma City, OK; see attached color
pic (20k).

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "The DomeHome List" <rowley@looknfeel.com>
To: <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 8:00 AM
Subject: re: New to List


> From: "Cat" <cathrynm@whale-mail.com>
> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 08:11:02 -0500
>
> Dan and Kimberly,
>
> Don't you two spend time staring at the big, gold bank?  Do they
> still put the Santa, sled and reindeer on its curving roof?  Can't
> remember the name of the bank...was it Guarantee Bank?  Y'all HAVE to
> know which one I'm talking about - I grew up in OKC.
(snip)

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------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C07185.24B67420--
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Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:33:00 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: compressed air cars
Comments: To: SpaceshipEarth@mail.com
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My experience has been that the BBC reports info that is suppressed in the
US media.  For example: People (soldiers & civilians) were (& are still)
being exposed to depleted uranium dust from the Gulf War (& now Bosnia).
They have been suffering from radiation poisoning.  (The so-called
"mysterious" Gulf Syndrome.)

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: <SpaceshipEarth@mail.com>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 3:22 AM
Subject: compressed air cars

(snip)

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_988000/988265.stm
>
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Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 11:53:54 PST
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From:         'Bill' 'Eagleton' <OOWON@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject:      Re: [Re: compressed air cars]
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*Very Interesting.
Lilkely somewhat true.
NOT, compresed air cars, (an interest of mine,)
NOR
(I am new here, having found the list via the "remote" list at eGroups,) =
 =

=2E..does it seem very geodesic, or is "geodesic" a broad "tent-like"
euphemistic title for non-ludditical technology, (hoping that is not too
terribly oxymoronic...)

I'll have to read the archives.
BillSF9c
Name, Area, Own USDA Zone, LOL (That's a geodestical gardener joke...)

>Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM> wrote:
My experience has been that the BBC reports info that is suppressed in th=
e
US media.  For example: People (soldiers & civilians) were (& are still)
being exposed to depleted uranium dust from the Gulf War (& now Bosnia).
They have been suffering from radiation poisoning.  (The so-called
"mysterious" Gulf Syndrome.)

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: <SpaceshipEarth@mail.com>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 3:22 AM
Subject: compressed air cars

(snip)

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_988000/988265.stm
>


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Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:12:01 -0800
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: compressed air cars
In-Reply-To:  <006001c071ce$40509b40$6b08fbcf@oemcomputer>
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At 11:33 AM 12/29/2000 -0800, Joe S Moore wrote:
>My experience has been that the BBC reports info that is suppressed in the
>US media.

US media tends to be extremely inward focussed, partly
for economic reasons -- it's much cheaper to make sitcoms
to sell the same advertising to a larger audience than to
have journalists on the ground in faraway locations.

When you're indulging in mythology about being the last/only
superpower or whatever it is, there's a tendency to think
the rest of the world is just background scenery for the
center ring event:  whatever fads and fun are taking hold
in the USA.

The corporate-dominated media also tend to flatten and
tailor the news because editors see their economic interests
as coincident with shareholders -- so they don't make waves
for the sponsors and/or parent companies.  It's a subtle
process -- you don't need a lot of "smoking gun" internal
memoranda, just an unspoken commitment to a particular
look and feel.

Anyway, in part thanks to the web, we're able to get out
from under the behemoths and seek out stories independently
of their censor-editors.  Beyond that, we can do our own
networking and traveling.  Average individuals have more
degrees of freedom than ever before, and those of us pushing
design science futures need to take every advantage of them
-- as Bucky did, to the hilt.

Kirby
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Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:14:33 PST
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From:         'Bill' 'Eagleton' <OOWON@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject:      Re: compressed air carsm - NOT
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>Anyway, in part thanks to the web, we're able to get out
from under the behemoths and seek out stories independently
of their censor-editors.  Beyond that, we can do our own
networking and traveling.  Average individuals have more
degrees of freedom than ever before, and those of us pushing
design science futures need to take every advantage of them
-- as Bucky did, to the hilt.
Kirby

This is just the sort of things with which these folks wrestle.
http://www.egroups.com/group/urban-ecology

Some actually are activists w/links to media stars to get focus and
attention.
BillSF9c


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Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 12:28:51 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Carbon is a Girl's Best Friend
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"Carbon is a Girl's Best Friend"

Lyrics by Lynda Williams

 http://www.entersci.com/cosmic/carbon.htm

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
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Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:20:49 -0800
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From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Carbon is a Girl's Best Friend
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Laurie Anderson does a song she wrote about Bucky. It
is titled "Bigtop." In it she describes Bucky
lecturing in Montreal. He described geodesics and
shelters that are coming as if they were the bigtop,
the huge circus tent.

"Have you ever considered     how much     a building
     actually       weighs?"


--- Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM> wrote:
> "Carbon is a Girl's Best Friend"
>
> Lyrics by Lynda Williams
>
>  http://www.entersci.com/cosmic/carbon.htm
>
> Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
> Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute:
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:31:13 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: compressed air cars

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            29-DEC-2000  9:31
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 there are many other actually assailable factors
 from the Gulf War, and I'd argue that the fact that
 it was such a "video-game" or turkey-shoot of minimal danger
 (other than snafus), which engendered a sort of opposite
 of traumatic stress dysorder -- along
 with the usual assortment of pathologies that happenned
 to have happenned, after the war, no matter how much
 the latter was causative.  this was another of Sir George's phony wars,
 taht didn't get him back into office, praise-be,
 that made life miserable for Earth's most progressive Arab country!
    as to the danger of "DU" as it is euphamistaically known,
 all of the stuff about "DU dust" is apocryphal, and
 you'd be hard-pressed to actually find any,
 other than by panning in a wadi.  (its chemical toxicity is more
 of a problem, if there was really enough to go around the desert
 to be a problem, which is rather doubtful.  remember:
 radiation=bad, and that goes for UV, alpha, beta and gamma --
 don't get over your minimum daily requirement !-)

 see the synopsis of the metastudy as RAND.org, and
 pray that they show as much rationality overall,
 in the "Incoming!" Administration and its "Sir Colin Doctrine;"
 eh?

 thus quoth:
  US media.  For example: People (soldiers & civilians) were (& are still)
  being exposed to depleted uranium dust from the Gulf War (& now Bosnia).
  They have been suffering from radiation poisoning.  (The so-called
  "mysterious" Gulf Syndrome.)

 or, hey; just believe every thing that Reuters and the Beep, saith,
 and welcome to MK-infra!

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:41:20 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            29-DEC-2000  9:41
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 that sounds like quite a technology;
 how many tons of air do you have to pack in,
 for that 2-hour ride ?!?
    seriously, I didn't see anything, like
 how much pressure is required, or how beefy those tanks'd have
 to be, to be safe for scuba activities....  and,
 here it is, quoting from the Beep site:
 "Simple, Economic and Clean", but details of how the vehicle will work
 remain sketchy.

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_988000/988265.stm

 the nominal 30-cent-fill-up may be indicative, if you're going by,
 to quote another on the list:
  For IC motor replacement, the total efficiency of the system must
  be compared not just the fuel cell phase. The electricity which
  is produced by the fuel cells in your example above must then be
  stored and transported (ie batteries) to do useful work such as
  powering an automobile. And you have to figure in the efficiency
  of the electric motor that drives the car. The total efficiency
  of the system then drops below that of direct fossil fuel IC.

  See http://www.dieoff.org/page170.htm (eMergy Evaluation)

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:55:27 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            29-DEC-2000  9:55
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 actually, I don't really know Carnot,
 the guy that got Napolean's Army the goods, that well,
 let-alone his cycle, but I did read about this
 in a recent articel in *21st C.Science and Tech.*,
 which really does provide the basics.
    (you wouldn't beleive how much of stuff like cosmology comes
 out of interpretations of *adabiasis* so-applied, let-alone
 in dog-like theoretical dogma in thermodynamics --
 which of course does have plenty of engineering applications,
 if not in the post-Thatcher UK .-)

 I also wouldn't say that fuel-cells "side-step" Carnot;
 they're just goo batteries!

 thus quoth:
  Very correct -- glad you are familiar with it.  It makes this
  discussion go much more smoothly.

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 16:52:03 PST
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From:         'Bill' 'Eagleton' <OOWON@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject:      OT - Re: Air Energy
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*I had misgivings myself as to energy, even at liquid gas state, that wou=
ld be
transprotable.

SCUBA dude typically carry equiv of 72 cfm of atmosphereic air.  It is
so heated during tank refills, they are submerged while filling, to cool =
the
tanks and diffuse any explosions that may occur.

H9owever, as a small air pump actuaterd via a bvraking action, a small st=
orage
to reenegise the auto for re-acceleration, is very feasible.
beside semis using air assisted brakes, I have small Tomy car toy that us=
es
compresed air and a piston motor.  (Not "engine.")  Rockets that use air =
and
water have been toys for years.  They are efficient.  And low smog.

*Made a geodestic with same chord struts just now.  So it's a lil off
spherical, but surprisingly strong for "straws," though thick "toy" straw=
s. =

Now to choose metal, wood, or pvc for a garden greenhouse.
Good site you have Joe!

Using www.37.com
and
geodesic+greenhouse+dome
I found a lot of material!

BillSF9c

Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
<<MESSAGE from>> Brian =BFQuincy! Hutchings            29-DEC-2000  9:41
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 that sounds like quite a technology;
 how many tons of air do you have to pack in,
 for that 2-hour ride ?!?
    seriously, I didn't see anything, like
 how much pressure is required, or how beefy those tanks'd have
 to be, to be safe for scuba activities....  and,
 here it is, quoting from the Beep site:
 "Simple, Economic and Clean", but details of how the vehicle will work
 remain sketchy.


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Date:         Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:10:19 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Carbon is a Girl's Best Friend

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            29-DEC-2000 10:10
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Aluminum is a Cold Warrior's Best Friend

 Washington (Reuters) -- Alcoa has just been chosen
 by the Defense Department to be the primary contractor
 for the Real Millennium Dome & Missile Defense Shield.
 News at some moments til midnight!

 --The duke of Oil!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush8.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:00:29 -0800
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From:         Dexter Graphic <dextergraphic@PRODIGY.NET>
Subject:      Re: compressed air cars
In-Reply-To:  <3A4C73E7.155D7B01@mail.com>
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> e.Volution compressed air car, fill from an airstation in as
> little as three minutes, or  plug in and self-charge in four
> hours. Able to travel up to 200km (120 miles) for only 30 US
> cents. Expected to sell for a bout $10,000 US in South Africa.
> "Zero Pollution Motors" has the rights to manufacture
> the car in South Africa. The piston engine is powered by the
> release of compressed air which is stored in tanks, very similar
> to scuba diving tanks, attached to the underside of the car. The
> body of the vehicle weighs only 700kg, and the engine itself
> is a mere 35kg. This means that the vehicle can theoretically be
> driven for up to 10 hours in an urban environment at an average
> speed of 80km/h.

Sounds interesting, SE. But how is all that air going to get
compressed and delivered? And how much energy will all those
air-stations with hundreds of compressors running 24 hours a
day consume? How much noise will they make? And pollution?
How much energy will it take to produce all those air tanks
and compressors? (Requires a lot of heavy steel I presume.)
Will the delivery trucks that haul all this equipment to the
site also run on compressed air? We're not talking about a
700 kg load here! How big will those tanks have to be, and
as Brian pointed out, how much will all that liquefied air
weight? Will these trucks even have enough power to propel
themselves, never mind the seriously heavy storage tanks and
compression equipment? (I doubt it.) And how long will it take
to get this whole air-power infrastructure setup and running?
And at what cost? As Jay Hanson points out at his web site:

  So when renewable energy systems are evaluated, both inputs
  and outputs must be converted to solar eMjoules (or "sej")
  and compared. (There are ten different sets of equations to
  convert energy to sej: http://dieoff.com/emergy.pdf ) The
  difference between the sej input and sej output is known as
  the "net sej".

We have less than 20 years to build a solution that works for
everybody before the declining oil-supply starts it's cascade
of socio-economic effects. The results of which will not be
pretty.

Envision a world utterly destroyed by a lethal education:

http://www.dieoff.org/synopsis.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 05:06:31 -0800
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Energy production and the Malthusian dieoff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            30-DEC-2000  5:06
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
 (was: OT - Re: Air Energy)


 hey, maybe the folks at the Beep finally managed to kill Carnot --
 "that Frog ****ing bastard; 'the Angel of Victory' --my ass-- must
 be defeated!!!"
    seriously, most of the folks who spout
 about the industrial revolution, don't know anything
 about the most important precursors to it, like Carnot
 (take James Burke's "Connexions," please !-)

 thus quoth:
  SCUBA dude typically carry equiv of 72 cfm of atmosphereic air.  It is
  so heated during tank refills, they are submerged while filling, to cool
 the
  tanks and diffuse any explosions that may occur.

 >  --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 >  The Three Phases of Exploitation
 >  of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 >  bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
 >      http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial
 >contents):
 >       8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:47:21 PST
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From:         'Bill' 'Eagleton' <OOWON@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject:      OT - Re:  Energy... dieoff
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Carnot, entropy... etc.
I respect this, and folks making solar run engines using reformulated fre=
on
substitutes.  I also hate to see 20 years, or ten, of research, then 2-10=
 more
in application transfer of such technology.

Politicians hold stuff up, as do folks who won't recycle until they are
charged MORE for the priveledge of having their city do it, and fine them=
 if
they don't.  I worked on hybrid autos in the early 70s, w 5Hp just as is =
used
now.  But burocrats had a concept of ALL elec/non-combustion or NOTHING..=
=2E  I
would rather have SOME significant results NOW... WHILE we work on the ne=
xt
step to less waste.  Carnot is cool. <G>  But what of fast, cost-less (ne=
arly)
intermeadiate steps like compression braking... and recoup that when
accelerating?  (A very smog producing time, due both to interstage
transitional engine operation and F=3Dma, a being an exponential (squared=
)
function.)

Semis already use the opposite by removing compression reacceleration add=
ed
from pistons DURING braking.  Carnot engines are hard to fab and seal rig=
ht
now.  An intermeadiate step is not hard or costly to achieve.  The Cadill=
ac
NorthStar 4-6-8 engine had the potential to do some of this, had it been
tapped into.

Geodesics please?
BillSF9c

Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US> wrote:
 (was: OT - Re: Air Energy)

 hey, maybe the folks at the Beep finally managed to kill Carnot --
 "that Frog ****ing bastard; 'the Angel of Victory' --my ass-- must
 be defeated!!!"
    seriously, most of the folks who spout
 about the industrial revolution, don't know anything
 about the most important precursors to it, like Carnot
 (take James Burke's "Connexions," please !-)

 thus quoth:
  SCUBA dude typically carry equiv of 72 cfm of atmosphereic air.  It is
  so heated during tank refills, they are submerged while filling, to coo=
l
  the tanks and diffuse any explosions that may occur.

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home=
=2Enetscape.com/webmail
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Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 15:03:42 -0800
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: triaxial weaving
Comments: To: Estelle M Carlson <fibertrails1@juno.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Estelle,

I assume you have been looking at the following page:
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/Ideas/TriWeave3WayVs2Way.htm

Most of the refs are from Textile Research magazine.  (Sorry for the
abbreviation "textile rsrch"; I was trying to keep the entry short enough so
that the ref would display on only one line.  Maybe that's not such a good
idea.)

Another magazine is Textile Asia.

There is a Scientific American article but I don't have the month and year.

One article is from the journal of the Textile Research Lab of the
Philadelphia College of Textiles & Science, but again I don't have the month
and year.  I think they have changed their name; see:
http://fibers.philau.edu/

_Synergetics II_ and _A Fuller Explanation_ are both books.

Unfortunately I just have the refs, not the actual articles, and I can't
remember where I found the mag refs.

Here is a list of schools that are concerned with textiles:
http://www.webcom.com/tekguru/education.html

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Estelle M Carlson" <fibertrails1@juno.com>
To: <joemoore@cruzio.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2000 10:02 AM
Subject: re: triaxial weaving


>
> Dear Mr. Moore,
>
> I am quite interested in triaxial weaving--I found your website this
> morning and would like to access several of the research articles sited
> on the "Three Way vs. Two Way Weaving".  The title of the articles and
> authors are present but I do not know the names of the journals.  Are the
> journals available on the web?
>
> Thank you for providing such an interesting site.
>
>
> Estelle Carlson
>
> To reply privately write to fibertrails1@juno.com
> Also, please visit my web site:
> http://www.africancrafts.com/designer/carlson
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 09:49:57 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      OT - Re:  Energy... dieoff

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            30-DEC-2000  9:49
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 you keep-on interupting the thread with new headers, dude.  also,
 "politicians" are actually mandated by their republics,
 to protect local industries from the rabid free-traders,
 formerly known as imperialists.  you just have to work with that, or
 join the pirates (it's called the Commonwealth, although
 such nasty sources as *National Review* promulgate the idea
 that it w as "abolished" (Peter Hitchens' book) --
 the Austin Powers (a-hem; W's favorite movie, supposedly) version
 of reality: the British Empire is the Royal Home of the White Hats !-)

 really, semi (semi-what?) deisels do dat, now?
    what is a 4-6-8 Cadillac -- cylinders?

 thus quoth:
  Semis already use the opposite by removing compression reacceleration
 added
  from pistons DURING braking.  Carnot engines are hard to fab and seal
 right
  now.  An intermeadiate step is not hard or costly to achieve.  The
 Cadillac
  NorthStar 4-6-8 engine had the potential to do some of this, had it been

 --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 The Three Phases of Exploitation
 of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 bush/gore/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
     http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial contents):
      8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
     17 -- THE ATTEMPTED COUP D'ETAT OF MARCH 30, 1981 (87K)
     18 -- IRAN-CONTRA (140K)
     19 -- THE LEVERAGED BUYOUT MOB (67K)
     20 -- THE PHONY WAR ON DRUGS (26K)
     21 -- OMAHA (25K)
     22 -- BUSH TAKES THE PRESIDENCY (112K)
     23 -- THE END OF HISTORY (168K)
     24 -- THE NEW WORLD ORDER (255K)
     25 -- THYROID STORM (139K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 10:01:26 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: compressed air cars

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian ¿Quincy! Hutchings            30-DEC-2000 10:01
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 ah, so; just found a new catalog of theirs (it's across from City Hall,
 naturally), and it has a page on their multi-volume GWS study,
 with a whole one devoted to DU -- makes great armor-piercing, and
 a paperwiegth that's dangerous if it hits your foot!
    (the folks who got rid of radium on watch-faces,
 ought to have that done to themselves in atonement .-)
    the studies on radon by the EPA are also based upon the fallacy
 of the "linear no-threshold" rat-torture protocols, although
 it's certainly no worse than any exposures from Three Mile Island,
 which was a fizzle, epidemiolgocially.  just like Asbestos in the News:
 Buffet is scraping the companies up for a song,
 possibly because WAND'll release a report,
 showing what bunko the whole thing was.

 thus saith:
   see the synopsis of the metastudy as RAND.org, and
   pray that they show as much rationality overall,
   in the "Incoming!" Administration and its "Sir Colin Doctrine;"
   eh?

 >  >  --(zero bp (tm) [*]) Oil Platform 2000!...
 >  >  The Three Phases of Exploitation
 >  >  of the Protocols of the Elders of Kyoto: fossilisation (sic)/
 >  >  bore/gush/nadir @ http://www.tarpley.net/29crash.htm ;
 >  >      http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (Copyr.92 by EIR, partial
 >  >contents):
 >  >       8 -- THE PERMIAN BASIN GANG (64K)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:01:21 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      House and Garden Tour
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This dome residence was on a house & garden tour in 1997. Maybe they still
welcome visitors.

Skip and Linda Fielden
12323 Itnyre Road
Smithsburg, MD, USA

 http://www.herald-mail.com/news/1997/05/29/lifestyle/may30_housetour.html
(second item down)

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:23:50 PST
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         'Bill' 'Eagleton' <OOWON@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject:      Re: [OT - Re:  Energy... dieoff]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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>you keep-on interupting the thread with new headers, dude

*Sorry.  I try for accurate Subjects, and this seemed a rthaer unraveled
thread, as far as geodesical concerns seemed, to me...

>really, semi (semi-what?) deisels do dat, now?
    what is a 4-6-8 Cadillac -- cylinders?

Each used/uses 1/2 of the system required...

>>thus quoth:
>>>  Semis already use the opposite by removing compression reacceleratio=
n
 added from pistons DURING braking.  Carnot engines are hard to fab and s=
eal
right now.  An intermeadiate step is not hard or costly to achieve.  The
Cadillac NorthStar 4-6-8 engine had the potential to do some of this, had=
 it
been<<<

Semis bled compression away, after piston hits about top stroke/max
compression, during a braking cycle.  Thus, on the piston's way down, the=

energy absorbed during compression braking is not returned to the
piston/crank, during braking.  This compressed air could be captured.

The Cadillac in question, turned off ignition for some cylinders, let
compression occur, then did not open valves, but let the compressed air
"spring" return the energy to the crankshaft.  Minus friction, the cylind=
er
became temporily, "nonexistant."

An engine is just a fancy pump.  Compressed air, captured on automobile
deceleration (F=3Dma, an expoential function,) could largely be returned =
during
acceleration, if the small amount was stored for a minute or two, during =
city
stops.

Cars are relatively very inefficient during the city driving cycle. =

Braking/acceleration is a large part of the reason why.

Cars need about 10-15 HP for Highway speeds.  Half for drivetrain frictio=
n and
half for air resistance.  These are 1970 numbers.  Both frictions have be=
n
partially conquered, as evidenced by 5HP hybrids being capable of extende=
d
driving at freeway speeds.

Acceleration of dead weight remains.  This is not high tech.  The
manufacturers could implement this easily if mandated/compelled fiscally
(incentive) to do so.  This Cadillac was dropped due to relatively minor
selonoid problems.

I am wrestling with material choice for a garden geodesic.
All my ready choices have attractive advantages.
BillSF9c

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home=
=2Enetscape.com/webmail
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 17:49:43 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Dome Stadiums
Comments: To: _DomeHomeList <DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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"Housing the Spectacle: The Emergence of America's Domed Superstadiums
1965 - 1992"

A multimedia exhibit at Columbia University, New York, NY, USA

Sponsored by the National Endowment for the Arts & the NY State Council on
the Arts

 http://www.cc.columbia.edu/cu/gsapp/BT/DOMES/domes.html

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 21:26:59 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      first posting
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hello,  my name is steve waterman. i have a website at=20
www.welcome.to/physics2000
it contains speculations on many different topics. i have had this site =
up now for 2 years and have just added another section...attempting to =
directly link pi to the physical constants.=20

while i am now, and have for a long time been, a fan of Fuller's works, =
i do question his logic on certain specifics. i am not in agreement with =
the concept that the tetrahedral form should to be equated as THE basic =
structural unit. i would point to a squared based pyramid as also being =
a basic fundamental structural unit. (as actually appears 6 times in the =
frequency 1)

i recently got connected with Joe Moore, and he suggested that i might =
contact your list...to post a poem that i had just written after being =
inspired/frustrated by this tetrahedral issue.=20

tet offensive      by steve waterman dec.2000

i have been forced to rock the bucky boat
but with some holes, it is still afloat
he packed his spheres, 12 round 1
and from that thought, we have all begun

unproven by newton, though greatly suspected
13 was wrong, as he had projected
from the 12 a hull was made
he took this shape and began his parade

frequency 1 and frequency 2
the hull shapes the same, was his rule
with these frequencies, i can agree
but no longer can with frequency 3

there he places spheres at root 9
but those at root 8, he elects to decline
from my point of view, never occurs
for spheres have mass and that deserves...

a link to gravity and its attraction
and what is meant by this action
as a coin leaves a spinning plate
root 9 spheres would eject before root 8

i too see spheres, grouped by distance
but to ignore gravity, i have some resistance
dissecting its roots, each a parameter
returns a figure having radial diameter

i have to mention one thing i dont get
his reasoning behind, all things are tet
frequency 1 he counts 20 in all
but there are but 8, and the rest fall...

into a pyramid whose base is square
each twice the tet volume, i so declare
so we each get volumes of 20 tets
while he sees 1, i see 2 sets

inverse pyramids along each axes
inverse tets to fill up the cracks with
radial sweeps show these sectors
pyramids and tets along 14 vectors

it does not matter what distance you choose
the 14 vectors...you never will lose
so 12 round 1, is surely a clue
not just tetrahedrons come into view.


i encourage comments about the poem or contents of my site...not just my =
conjectures on sphere packing ( and its mathematics )....but anything at =
all posted there is open to reasonable criticism. and should anyone want =
to contact me directly..my email is swaterman117@hotmail.com

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C072A7.3E8B5F00
Content-Type: text/html;
        charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>hello,&nbsp; my name is steve waterman. =
i have a=20
website at </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.welcome.to/physics2000">www.welcome.to/physics2000</A>=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it contains speculations on many =
different topics.=20
i have had this site up now for 2 years and have just added another=20
section...attempting to directly link pi to the physical constants.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>while i am now, and have for a long =
time been, a=20
fan of Fuller's works, i do question&nbsp;his logic on certain =
specifics. i am=20
not in agreement with the concept that the tetrahedral form should to=20
be&nbsp;equated as THE basic structural unit. i would point to a squared =
based=20
pyramid as also being a basic fundamental structural unit. (as actually =
appears=20
6 times in the frequency 1)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i recently got connected with Joe =
Moore, and he=20
suggested that i might contact&nbsp;your list...to post a poem that i =
had just=20
written after being inspired/frustrated by this tetrahedral issue. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>tet =
offensive&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; by=20
steve waterman dec.2000</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i have been forced to rock the bucky=20
boat</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but with some holes, it is still=20
afloat</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>he packed his spheres, 12 round =
1</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and from that thought, we have all=20
begun</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>unproven by newton, though greatly=20
suspected</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>13 was wrong, as he had =
projected</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>from the 12 a hull was =
made</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>he took this shape and began his=20
parade</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>frequency 1 and frequency =
2</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the hull shapes the same, was his =
rule</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>with these frequencies, i can =
agree</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but no longer can with frequency =
3</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>there he places spheres at root =
9</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but those at root 8, he elects to=20
decline</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>from my point of view, never =
occurs</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>for spheres have mass and that=20
deserves...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a link to gravity and its =
attraction</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and what is meant by this =
action</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>as a coin leaves a spinning =
plate</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>root 9 spheres would&nbsp;eject before =
root=20
8</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i too see spheres, grouped by =
distance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but to ignore gravity, i have some=20
resistance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>dissecting its roots, each a =
parameter</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>returns a figure having radial=20
diameter</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i have to mention one thing i dont =
get</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>his reasoning behind, all things are=20
tet</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>frequency 1 he counts 20 in =
all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but there are but 8, and the rest=20
fall...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>into a pyramid whose base is =
square</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>each twice the tet volume, i so=20
declare</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>so we each get volumes of 20 =
tets</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>while he sees 1, i see 2 =
sets</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>inverse pyramids along each =
axes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>inverse tets to fill up the cracks=20
with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>radial sweeps show these =
sectors</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>pyramids and tets along 14 =
vectors</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it does not matter what distance you=20
choose</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the 14 vectors...you never will =
lose</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>so 12 round 1, is surely a =
clue</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>not just tetrahedrons come into =
view.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i encourage comments about the poem or =
contents of=20
my site...not just my conjectures on sphere packing ( and its =
mathematics=20
)....but anything at all posted there is open to reasonable criticism. =
and=20
should anyone want to contact me directly..my email is <A=20
href=3D"mailto:swaterman117@hotmail.com">swaterman117@hotmail.com</A></FO=
NT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C072A7.3E8B5F00--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:17:54 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      first posting
MIME-Version: 1.0
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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hello,=20

my name is steve waterman. i have a website at=20
www.welcome.to/physics2000
it contains speculations on many different topics. i have had this site =
up now for 2 years and have just added another section...attempting to =
directly link pi to the physical constants.=20
=20
while i am now, and have for a long time been, a fan of Fuller's works, =
i do question his logic on certain specifics. i am not in agreement with =
the concept that the tetrahedral form should to be equated as THE basic =
structural unit. i would point to a squared based pyramid as also being =
a basic fundamental structural unit. (as actually appears 6 times in the =
frequency 1)

i recently got connected with Joe Moore, and he suggested that i might =
contact your list...to post a poem that i had just written after being =
inspired/frustrated by this tetrahedral issue.=20

tet offensive      by steve waterman dec.2000

i have been forced to rock the bucky boat
but with some holes, it is still afloat
he packed his spheres, 12 round 1
and from that thought, we have all begun

unproven by newton, though greatly suspected
13 was wrong, as he had projected
from the 12 a hull was made
he took this shape and began his parade

frequency 1 and frequency 2
the hull shapes the same, was his rule
with these frequencies, i can agree
but no longer can with frequency 3

there he places spheres at root 9
but those at root 8, he elects to decline
from my point of view, never occurs
for spheres have mass and that deserves...

a link to gravity and its attraction
and what is meant by this action
as a coin leaves a spinning plate
root 9 spheres would eject before root 8

i too see spheres, grouped by distance
but to ignore gravity, i have some resistance
dissecting its roots, each a parameter
returns a figure having radial diameter

i have to mention one thing i dont get
his reasoning behind, all things are tet
frequency 1 he counts 20 in all
but there are but 8, and the rest fall...

into a pyramid whose base is square
each twice the tet volume, i so declare
so we each get volumes of 20 tets
while he sees 1, i see 2 sets

inverse pyramids along each axes
inverse tets to fill up the cracks with
radial sweeps show these sectors
pyramids and tets along 14 vectors

it does not matter what distance you choose
the 14 vectors...you never will lose
so 12 round 1, is surely a clue
not just tetrahedrons come into view.


i encourage comments about the poem or contents of my site...not just my =
conjectures on sphere packing ( and its mathematics )....but anything at =
all posted there is open to reasonable criticism. and should anyone want =
to contact me directly..my email is swaterman117@hotmail.com

------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C072AE.5BCCD380
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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>hello,&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>my name is steve waterman. i have a =
website at=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.welcome.to/physics2000">www.welcome.to/physics2000</A>=
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it contains speculations on many =
different topics.=20
i have had this site up now for 2 years and have just added another=20
section...attempting to directly link pi to the physical constants.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>while i am now, and have for a long =
time been, a=20
fan of Fuller's works, i do question&nbsp;his logic on certain =
specifics. i am=20
not in agreement with the concept that the tetrahedral form should to=20
be&nbsp;equated as THE basic structural unit. i would point to a squared =
based=20
pyramid as also being a basic fundamental structural unit. (as actually =
appears=20
6 times in the frequency 1)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i recently got connected with Joe =
Moore, and he=20
suggested that i might contact&nbsp;your list...to post a poem that i =
had just=20
written after being inspired/frustrated by this tetrahedral issue. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>tet =
offensive&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; by=20
steve waterman dec.2000</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i have been forced to rock the bucky=20
boat</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but with some holes, it is still=20
afloat</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>he packed his spheres, 12 round =
1</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and from that thought, we have all=20
begun</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>unproven by newton, though greatly=20
suspected</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>13 was wrong, as he had =
projected</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>from the 12 a hull was =
made</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>he took this shape and began his=20
parade</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>frequency 1 and frequency =
2</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the hull shapes the same, was his =
rule</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>with these frequencies, i can =
agree</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but no longer can with frequency =
3</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>there he places spheres at root =
9</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but those at root 8, he elects to=20
decline</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>from my point of view, never =
occurs</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>for spheres have mass and that=20
deserves...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a link to gravity and its =
attraction</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and what is meant by this =
action</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>as a coin leaves a spinning =
plate</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>root 9 spheres would&nbsp;eject before =
root=20
8</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i too see spheres, grouped by =
distance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but to ignore gravity, i have some=20
resistance</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>dissecting its roots, each a =
parameter</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>returns a figure having radial=20
diameter</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i have to mention one thing i dont =
get</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>his reasoning behind, all things are=20
tet</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>frequency 1 he counts 20 in =
all</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but there are but 8, and the rest=20
fall...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>into a pyramid whose base is =
square</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>each twice the tet volume, i so=20
declare</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>so we each get volumes of 20 =
tets</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>while he sees 1, i see 2 =
sets</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>inverse pyramids along each =
axes</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>inverse tets to fill up the cracks=20
with</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>radial sweeps show these =
sectors</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>pyramids and tets along 14 =
vectors</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it does not matter what distance you=20
choose</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the 14 vectors...you never will =
lose</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>so 12 round 1, is surely a =
clue</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>not just tetrahedrons come into =
view.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i encourage comments about the poem or =
contents of=20
my site...not just my conjectures on sphere packing ( and its =
mathematics=20
)....but anything at all posted there is open to reasonable criticism. =
and=20
should anyone want to contact me directly..my email is <A=20
href=3D"mailto:swaterman117@hotmail.com">swaterman117@hotmail.com</A></FO=
NT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 30 Dec 2000 21:21:16 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: first posting
Comments: cc: swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE48UCclPrus9c00002431@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi Steve --

I see on your SYNERGETICS page
http://www.dsuper.net/~tinom/ph2000/SYNERG.html

that you've got a graphic from "the 'Beyond Flatland' home
page" i.e. from my website.  But the URL has a comma in it,
so it doesn't work.

Instead of the URL you've got, you might want to link to
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/urner.html instead,
as that's the page that mentions your research, plus
actually features the graphic you're using.

Also, I note that your write, re the rhombic dodecahedron,
that "It has 12 face centers the equate with the 12 around 1
'touch positions' of s.c.p.."

But the simple cubic packing is not the same as the 12-around-1
expanding-layers packing of the isotropic vector matrix (IVM)
-- that's the f.c.c. or face-centered cubic.

The s.c.p. is shown here:

http://www.uis.edu/~trammell/MaterialsScience/Unit_Cells/sld020.htm
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch13/structure.html#cubic

The f.c.c. is also known as the c.c.p. or cubic close packing.
See:

http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/genchem/topicreview/bp/ch13/structure.html#close

There's a relationship between the s.c.p. and f.c.c., in that
the former by be formed by two of the later, is animated at my
web page:

http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/xtals101.html

Thanks for the poem.  I can see why you'd be anxious to distinguish
your thinking from Bucky's, since in a lot of ways you're imitating
his successes, coming up with your own "Waterman Projection" and so
on.

http://www.dsuper.net/~tinom/ph2000/CARTOGRA.html

A tough act to follow, Bucky's.  Good luck.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 08:10:51 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Molecular Packing
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's
works"
>i encourage comments about the poem or contents of my site..<

        I was unable to get to your site from the URL that was posted.  =

        I personally believe that the Ancients had the right basis for
organic and inorganic structure in which was documented by Plato and
Archimedes.  Electron microscopes seems to haven proven them correct.  Fo=
r
a short treaties on Platonic packing, you might check my WEB site at URL:=

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert-conroy/molecula.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 07:54:56 +0000
Reply-To:     SpaceshipEarth@mail.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         SpaceshipEarth@MAIL.COM
Subject:      Re: compressed air cars
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

One article I read about compressed air cars mentioned using, I
believe, natural gas, to heat the compressed air for an additional
power boost. The power to run the compressor will normally come from
conventional sources, but could come from wind and other renewables,
if available. The car would be locally nonpolluting, an important
advantage in congested cities, and is claimed to be less polluting
overall, because electric generation plants are less polluting than
petroleum powered transportation. The Mexican government is said to
have signed a deal to buy 40,000 compressed air cars to replace
gasoline and diesel-powered taxis in heavily polluted Mexico City.

The following links will answer most of your questions.

This link is a cached page on the Google.com search engine, as the
original link lead to a blank page.
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:www.wmin.ac.uk/EngSci/DTD/car.html+%22compressed+air+car%22&hl=en

The Google search engine gives more hits than others for obscure
searches and has a cached page to read if the link has expired. It's
a highly recommended search engine.

Cryocar - liquid nitrogen powered car. The energy density (W-hr/kg)
of liquid nitrogen is relatively low when compared to gasoline but
better than that of readily available battery systems. A liquid
nitrogen car with a 60-gallon tank will have a potential range of up
to 200 miles, or more than twice that of a typical electric car.
Furthermore, a liquid nitrogen car will be much lighter and refilling
its tank will take only 10-15 minutes, rather than the several hours
required by most electric car concepts. When liquid nitrogen is
manufactured in large quantities, the operating cost per mile of a
liquid nitrogen car will not only be less than that of an electric
car but will actually be competitive with that of a gasoline car.
http://www.aa.washington.edu/aerp/CRYOCAR/CryoCar.htm

ZERO POLLUTION MOTORS compressed air powered vehicles:
http://www.zeropollution.com/zeropollution/index.html

This Car Runs on Air:
http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/science/DyeHard/dye15.html

How Air-Powered Cars Will Work:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/air-car.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:35:07 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      linking up again
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kirby,

it is nice to hear from you again. you wrote...

Instead of the URL you've got, you might want to link to
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/urner.html instead,
as that's the page that mentions your research, plus
actually features the graphic you're using.

thanks, i now have that connection fixed.=20

Also, I note that your write, re the rhombic dodecahedron,
that "It has 12 face centers the equate with the 12 around 1
'touch positions' of s.c.p.."

would it be better to have said, "It has 12 face centers that equate =
with the 12 around 1
'touch positions' of  the f.c.c.."  ?

There's a relationship between the s.c.p. and f.c.c., in that
the former by be formed by two of the later, is animated at my
web page:

http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/xtals101.html

could not link to this url.

Thanks for the poem.  I can see why you'd be anxious to distinguish
your thinking from Bucky's, since in a lot of ways you're imitating
his successes, coming up with your own "Waterman Projection" and so
on.

http://www.dsuper.net/~tinom/ph2000/CARTOGRA.html

A tough act to follow, Bucky's.  Good luck.

thank you for this acknowledgement and supportive comment.  and yes,=20
i can use the wishes of good luck too.

steve



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<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kirby,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it is nice to hear from you again. you=20
wrote...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Instead of the URL you've got, you =
might want to=20
link to<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/urner.html">http://www.inetar=
ena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/urner.html</A>=20
instead,<BR>as that's the page that mentions your research, =
plus<BR>actually=20
features the graphic you're using.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>thanks, i now have that connection =
fixed.=20
<BR><BR>Also, I note that your write, re the rhombic =
dodecahedron,<BR>that "It=20
has 12 face centers the equate with the 12 around 1<BR>'touch positions' =
of=20
s.c.p.."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>would it be better to have said, "It =
has 12 face=20
centers that equate with the 12 around 1<BR>'touch positions' of&nbsp; =
the=20
f.c.c.."&nbsp; ?<BR><BR>There's a relationship between the s.c.p. and =
f.c.c., in=20
that<BR>the former by be formed by two of the later, is animated at =
my<BR>web=20
page:<BR><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/xtals101.html">http://www.ine=
tarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/xtals101.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>could not link to this =
url.<BR><BR>Thanks for the=20
poem.&nbsp; I can see why you'd be anxious to distinguish<BR>your =
thinking from=20
Bucky's, since in a lot of ways you're imitating<BR>his successes, =
coming up=20
with your own "Waterman Projection" and so<BR>on.<BR><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.dsuper.net/~tinom/ph2000/CARTOGRA.html">http://www.dsu=
per.net/~tinom/ph2000/CARTOGRA.html</A><BR><BR>A=20
tough act to follow, Bucky's.&nbsp; Good luck.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>thank you for this acknowledgement and =
supportive=20
comment.  and yes, </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i can use the wishes of good luck =
too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>steve<BR><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C07315.584072A0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:48:34 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      getting linked up
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robert,
you wrote...

I was unable to get to your site from the URL that was posted.=20

please try again...it should be fine.
www.welcome.to/physics2000
=20
        I personally believe that the Ancients had the right basis for
organic and inorganic structure in which was documented by Plato and
Archimedes.  Electron microscopes seems to haven proven them correct.  =
For
a short treaties on Platonic packing, you might check my WEB site at =
URL:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert-conroy/molecula.htm

could not get to this link.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>robert,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>you wrote...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I was unable to get to your site from =
the URL that=20
was posted.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>please try again...it should be =
fine.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.welcome.to/physics2000">www.welcome.to/physics2000</A>=
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I =
personally believe=20
that the Ancients had the right basis for<BR>organic and inorganic =
structure in=20
which was documented by Plato and<BR>Archimedes.&nbsp; Electron =
microscopes=20
seems to haven proven them correct.&nbsp; For<BR>a short treaties on =
Platonic=20
packing, you might check my WEB site at URL:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert-conroy/molecula.h=
tm">http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert-conroy/molecula.htm</=
A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>could not get to this=20
link.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 08:09:14 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: getting linked up
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Steve- I think there are preferential directions in
space. The twelve directions of the tet are preferred
because they account for all possible moves in
Universe. This seems to be the way Nature knows where
she is.



"The problem is this. We have the right to set up
coordinate axes with the help of which we can orient
ourselves in space. We establish a Cartesian frame of
axes or a Cartesian reference system. But there is an
infinite variety of such systems."

"We cannot find an absolute center in space, nor are
there preferential directions in space which would
decide for us how we should orient our coordinate
axes."

"We can set up an infinite variety of coordinate
systems by putting the center of the reference system
at any point in space and orienting our coordinate
axes in any way we like, although keeping them
mutually orthogonal."

This is true but to what avail? What does this mean to
you? How are any of the "infinite variety" useful? I
can imagine many different senarios to measure things.
The 60 degree four-axis system of the tet is the most
orderly system I have found.

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 11:45:24 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      coordinating space
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dick,

you wrote...

I think there are preferential directions in
space. The twelve directions of the tet are preferred
because they account for all possible moves in
Universe. This seems to be the way Nature knows where
she is.

     please look at the construction of 12 around one.
     this is not composed of 20 tets.=20
     it is 8 tets and 6 squared based pyramids.

"The problem is this. We have the right to set up
coordinate axes with the help of which we can orient
ourselves in space. We establish a Cartesian frame of
axes or a Cartesian reference system. But there is an
infinite variety of such systems."

and so you suggest that this is a problem because...

"We cannot find an absolute center in space, nor are
there preferential directions in space which would
decide for us how we should orient our coordinate
axes."

     i must disagree here...please see some of my related=20
        views on "fixed point space" at
     www.welcome.to/physics2000/FIXEDP=20
     www.welcome.to/physics2000/FIXEDT=20
     www.welcome.to/physics2000/FIXEDPOSclean=20

"We can set up an infinite variety of coordinate
systems by putting the center of the reference system
at any point in space and orienting our coordinate
axes in any way we like, although keeping them
mutually orthogonal."

     yes, this mathematically can be done.
     this would give you 6 vector directions.

This is true but to what avail? What does this mean to
you? How are any of the "infinite variety" useful? I
can imagine many different scenarios to measure things.
The 60 degree four-axis system of the tet is the most
orderly system I have found.

     orderly yes, by i do not believe that it represents
     the physical reality of packed sphere. i would see it rather
     as two components not just the one....and would question=20
    the absence of the squared based pyramid....derived from=20
    four spheres that form a square with a fifth atop.

steve

   =20

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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>dick,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>you wrote...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I think there are preferential =
directions=20
in<BR>space. The twelve directions of the tet are preferred<BR>because =
they=20
account for all possible moves in<BR>Universe. This seems to be the way =
Nature=20
knows where<BR>she is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please look at =
the=20
construction of 12 around one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; this is not =
composed of 20=20
tets. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; it is 8 tets =
and 6 squared=20
based pyramids.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"The problem is this. We have the right =
to set=20
up<BR>coordinate axes with the help of which we can orient<BR>ourselves =
in=20
space. We establish a Cartesian frame of<BR>axes or a Cartesian =
reference=20
system. But there is an<BR>infinite variety of such =
systems."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and so you suggest that this is a =
problem=20
because...<BR><BR>"We cannot find an absolute center in space, nor =
are<BR>there=20
preferential directions in space which would<BR>decide for us how we =
should=20
orient our coordinate<BR>axes."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i must =
disagree=20
here...please see some of my related </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; views on=20
"fixed point space" at</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.welcome.to/physics2000/FIXEDP">www.welcome.to/physics2=
000/FIXEDP</A>=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.welcome.to/physics2000/FIXEDT">www.welcome.to/physics2=
000/FIXEDT</A>=20
</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.welcome.to/physics2000/FIXEDPOSclean">www.welcome.to/p=
hysics2000/FIXEDPOSclean</A>=20
</FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial></FONT><FONT size=3D2>"We can set up =
an infinite=20
variety of coordinate<BR>systems by putting the center of the reference=20
system<BR>at any point in space and orienting our coordinate<BR>axes in =
any way=20
we like, although keeping them<BR>mutually =
orthogonal."</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; yes, =
this=20
mathematically can be done.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
this&nbsp;would give you 6=20
vector directions.<BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>This is =
true but to=20
what avail? What does this mean to<BR>you? </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>How=20
are any of the "infinite variety" useful? I<BR>can imagine many =
different=20
scenarios to measure things.<BR>The 60 degree four-axis system of the =
tet is the=20
most<BR>orderly system I have found.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; orderly =
yes, by i do=20
not believe that it represents</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the =
physical reality=20
of packed sphere. i would see it rather</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; as two =
components=20
not just the one....and would question </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the absence of =
the squared=20
based pyramid....derived from </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; four spheres =
that form a=20
square with a fifth atop.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>steve<BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3DArial>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:05:15 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      getting linked up
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Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's
works"
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert-conroy/molecula.htm

could not get to this link.<

      The hyphen should have been an underline mark. Such as in:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/molecula.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:35:16 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: linking up again
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE14sGzeKkWGP6000027b9@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:35 AM 12/31/2000 -0500, you wrote:

>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>would it be better to have said,
"It has 12 face centers that equate with the 12 around 1

'touch positions' of  the f.c.c.."  ?


</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


Yes.


>>>>

<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

There's a relationship between the s.c.p. and f.c.c., in that

the former by be formed by two of the later, is animated at my

web page:


http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/xtals101.html

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>could not link to this url.


</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


Should work, just rechecked.


Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:36:26 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      basic components ?
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robert conroy,

yes, i have just had a quick look at some of your site...

      The hyphen should have been an underline mark. Such as in:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/molecula.htm

is there a place on your site that contains a synopsis of your views ?
what do you consider to be your basic units....building blocks ?

i imagine i will have a few comments about your site once i get a better =

gist of your approaches.

steve


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>robert conroy,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>yes, i have just had a quick look at =
some of your=20
site...<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The hyphen should have =
been an=20
underline mark. Such as in:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/molecula.h=
tm">http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/molecula.htm</=
A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>is there a place on your site that =
contains a=20
synopsis of your views ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>what&nbsp;do you consider to be your =
basic=20
units....building blocks ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i imagine i will have a few comments =
about your=20
site once i get a better </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>gist of your approaches.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>steve<BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00C2_01C07326.4B0A6DA0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:42:40 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: getting linked up
In-Reply-To:  <200012311205_MC2-C028-672D@compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 12:05 PM 12/31/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's
>works"
>>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert-conroy/molecula.htm
>
>could not get to this link.<
>
>      The hyphen should have been an underline mark. Such as in:
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/molecula.htm
>

I like the nifty graphics.  Yes, that looks like ancient
and well-known geometry -- same as in synergetics a lot of
it (Fuller's innovation in this space was mostly around
making the tet his unit of volume -- and the quanta module
assemblies, plus jitterbug transformation).

The 'Unified Theory' page isn't divided into paragraphs -- one
huge chunk.  Too hard to read, so I didn't.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 09:48:41 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: coordinating space
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE764Jf7zynrvD0000216a@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>     orderly yes, by i do not
believe that it represents

     the physical reality of packed sphere. i would see it rather

     as two components not just the one....and would question

    the absence of the squared based pyramid....derived from

    four spheres that form a square with a fifth atop.

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>steve



</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


Steve --


I so far don't understand your beef with Bucky

regarding the octahedron or half-octahedron.

Absolutely it appears in the VE and IVM, no

question about it.


The VE is given volume 20 because if you fill

a regular tet with same edge lengths with

water, and pour that into the VE (if bowl-like),

and do that 20 times, you'll have filled it

precisely.


But this isn't to say the IVM doesn't define

any octahedra.  You need regular tetras and

regular octas in complement to fill space,

twice as many of the former.


If that weren't true, Fuller wouldn't have

needed the B module, could have gotten away

with only A modules.  The octahedron is where

the B appears, and you need both As and Bs

to make the cuboctahedron (a.k.a. VE when

shown vectorially).


In sum, you seem to suggest that Fuller ignores

the presence of the octahedron in the IVM, but

this simply isn't the case.  If that's not what

you're suggesting, please clarify, so I can

better understand your critique.


Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 13:32:26 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      square based pyramids
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kirby,

you wrote...

In sum, you seem to suggest that Fuller ignores
the presence of the octahedron in the IVM, but
this simply isn't the case.=20

     i make no reference to octahedron here at all.
     i do not belief that octahedrons are involved with the IVM.
     i would suggest that he ignores the squared based pyramids,
     in the IVM.

If that's not what
you're suggesting, please clarify, so I can
better understand your critique.

     i see the IVM as being composed by 8 tets and
     6 squared based pyramids. more importantly, i see=20
     squared based pyramids and tets as basic to ALL=20
     f.c.c. and to waterman polyhedra as well.

    i do not see structures as agglomeration of tets...i
   see it as meshing of these 2 components into a single=20
   agglomeration. with 6 sets of square based sections...
   along the 6 coordinate axis. and meshed with 8 triangular
    sections centered through the 8 quadrants defined=20
     by the axes.







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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kirby,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>you wrote...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In sum, you seem to suggest that Fuller =

ignores<BR>the presence of the octahedron in the IVM, but<BR>this simply =
isn't=20
the case. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i make no =
reference to=20
octahedron here at all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i do not =
belief that=20
octahedrons </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>are involved with the=20
IVM.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;i would =
suggest that=20
he ignores the squared based pyramids,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in the =
IVM.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If that's not what<BR>you're =
suggesting, please=20
clarify, so I can<BR>better understand your critique.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i see the IVM =
as being=20
composed by 8 tets and</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6 squared =
based pyramids.=20
more importantly, i see </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; squared based =
pyramids and=20
tets as basic to ALL </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; f.c.c. and to =
waterman=20
polyhedra as well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i do not see =
structures as=20
agglomeration of tets...i</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;see it as meshing of =
these 2=20
components into a single </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; agglomeration. with 6 sets =
of square=20
based sections...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; along the 6 coordinate =
axis. and=20
meshed with 8 triangular</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; sections centered =
through the 8=20
quadrants defined </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; by the =
axes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 10:59:07 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: square based pyramids
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE33h0eTZ2MErP0000277b@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:32 PM 12/31/2000 -0500, Steve Waterman wrote:

>>>>

<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>kirby,

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>you wrote...

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>In sum, you seem to suggest that
Fuller ignores

the presence of the octahedron in the IVM, but

this simply isn't the case.

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>     i make no reference to
octahedron here at all.

     i do not belief that octahedrons are involved with the IVM.

     i would suggest that he ignores the squared based pyramids,

     in the IVM.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


The octahedron is simply two square-based

pyramids glued together square-face to

square-face.  So if octahedra occur in the

IVM (which they do -- not talking about the

VE), then so do the half-octahedra (square-

based pyramids).


When you pack spheres together in the fcc

manner, you get the two kinds of conformation

you mention on your synergetics page:  a base

of 3 spheres with a 4th on top (tetrahedron)

and a base of 4 spheres with a sphere on top

(1/2 octahedron).  But these 5-sphere half-octas

also have a sphere on the bottom, so there's

your octa.  Both patterns occur, but the tetra

"voids" occur twice as frequently.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>If that's not what

you're suggesting, please clarify, so I can

better understand your critique.

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>     i see the IVM as being
composed by 8 tets and

     6 squared based pyramids. more importantly, i see

     squared based pyramids and tets as basic to ALL

     f.c.c. and to waterman polyhedra as well.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


Note:  the IVM is not the same as the VE.  The

IVM is the lattice you get when you pack spheres

in the fcc arrangement (which you can generate

by packing successive layers around a nuclear

sphere in a cuboctahedral conformation -- that's

one way to to it, but not the only way).  It's a

skeletal scaffolding, a lattice, matrix.  It consists

of edges.  Those edges outline tetrahedral and

octahedral voids, of relative volume 1:4.


The VE, or cuboctahedral arrangement of edges, with

radial edges from its center to its 12 corners, is

embedded in the IVM, is one of the shapes you can trace

out with your finger.  But the VE is not really synonymous

with the IVM.  They have different uses/applications in

Fuller's synergetics language.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>    i do not see structures as
agglomeration of tets...i

   see it as meshing of these 2 components into a single

   agglomeration. with 6 sets of square based sections...

   along the 6 coordinate axis. and meshed with 8 triangular

    sections centered through the 8 quadrants defined

     by the axes.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


You're definitely correct that the VE consists of 8 regular

tets and 6 regular half-octas. But what I'm saying is

Bucky never disagrees with that or says otherwise.  Check

out this picture:


http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s02/figs/f2230.html


The half-octas are there, as clear as day.  You seem to

suggest Fuller doesn't "acknowledge" them somehow, and I

don't understand that criticism.


Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:16:03 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      basic components ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's
works"
>is there a place on your site that contains a synopsis of your views ?
what do you consider to be your basic units....building blocks<

       The basic units are the 10 "Mean Proportional" elements.  Simply
take the link to the homepage and hit link on "Elements".   For a view in=
 a
metaphysical light, simply hit the link to "Unified Theory" or
"Metaphysics".   Bob
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert-conroy
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:26:25 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      half-octas
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kirby,

you wrote...

When you pack spheres together in the fcc
manner, you get the two kinds of conformation
you mention on your synergetics page: a base
of 3 spheres with a 4th on top (tetrahedron)
and a base of 4 spheres with a sphere on top
(1/2 octahedron).=20

>>>>>yes, the 1/2 octahedron is the squared
based pyramid.

But these 5-sphere half-octas
also have a sphere on the bottom, so there's
your octa.=20

>>>>>no, i would not agree here. as you can see
in the 12 around 1...no octahedrons appear.
but 6 1/2 octahedrons do.  i will grant you that=20
the logical extension of 12 around 1 will lead to=20
an octahedral formation. however, even then...
i contend that this is 2 squared based pyramids.

while the octahedron is easily broken into 2
square based pyramids....the square base pyramid
CANNOT be broken into 2 tetrahedrons! =20
again,
i will grant you that the volume of the squared based pyramid
equals twice the tet volume. therefore, i a proposing
that from a purely structural basis, a square=20
based pyramid is fundamental and the octahedron=20
is not fundamental.

while this may seem to be a picky distinction, i feel that
it may be somewhat significant as it deals with structure=20
as a duality of components, and not just the singular
tetrahedral approach.

Both patterns occur, but the tetra
"voids" occur twice as frequently.

i am not sure that i agree here either...perhaps i do not=20
know what you mean by tetra "voids" and half-octa "voids" ?
can you detail how this is 2 to 1 ratio ?

steve








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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kirby,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>you wrote...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When you pack spheres together in the=20
fcc<BR>manner, you get the two kinds of conformation<BR>you mention on =
your=20
synergetics page: a base<BR>of 3 spheres with a 4th on top =
(tetrahedron)<BR>and=20
a base of 4 spheres with a sphere on top<BR>(1/2 octahedron). =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;yes, the 1/2 =
octahedron is the=20
squared</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>based pyramid.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But these 5-sphere half-octas<BR>also =
have a sphere=20
on the bottom, so there's<BR>your octa. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;no, i would not =
agree here. as=20
you can see</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>in the 12 around 1...no octahedrons=20
appear.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but 6 1/2 octahedrons do.&nbsp; i will =
grant you=20
that </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the logical extension of 12 around 1 =
will lead to=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>an octahedral formation. however, even=20
then...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i contend that this is 2 squared based=20
pyramids.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>while the octahedron is easily broken =
into=20
2</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>square based pyramids....the square =
base=20
pyramid</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>CANNOT be broken into&nbsp;2 =
tetrahedrons!&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>again,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i will grant you that the volume of the =
squared=20
based pyramid</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>equals twice the tet volume. therefore, =
i a=20
proposing</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>that&nbsp;from a purely</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> structural basis, a square </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>based pyramid is fundamental and the =
octahedron=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>is not fundamental.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>while this may seem to be a picky =
distinction, i=20
feel that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it may be somewhat significant as it =
deals with=20
structure </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>as a duality of components, and not =
just the=20
singular</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>tetrahedral approach.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Both patterns occur, but the =
tetra<BR>"voids" occur=20
twice as frequently.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i am not sure that i agree here =
either...perhaps i=20
do not </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>know what you mean by tetra "voids" and =
half-octa=20
"voids" ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>can you&nbsp;detail </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>how&nbsp;this is 2 to 1 ratio ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>steve</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:19:56 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: getting linked up
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Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's
works"
>The 'Unified Theory' page isn't divided into paragraphs -- one
huge chunk.  Too hard to read, so I didn't.<

     Dividing into paragraphs was a problem with the free software I used=

to build that page.  I felt anyone really interested could overlook that
shortfall.   Bob
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:48:18 -0500
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From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      10 mean proportional elements
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bob,

you wrote....

       The basic units are the 10 "Mean Proportional" elements

>>>how are these derived...are these all divisions and sub divisions
of a tetrahedron ?=20

do you involve half-octa ( squared based pyramid )=20
divisions and sub-divisions too ?

steve

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>bob,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>you=20
wrote....<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The basic units =
are the 10=20
"Mean Proportional" elements</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;&gt;&gt;how are these derived...are =
these all=20
divisions and sub divisions</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>of a tetrahedron ? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>do you involve&nbsp;half-octa ( squared =
based=20
pyramid ) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>divisions and sub-divisions =
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>too ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>steve</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:00:17 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: half-octas
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE597cvO49sKca0000239c@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>But these 5-sphere half-octas

also have a sphere on the bottom, so there's

your octa.

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>>>>>>no, i would not agree here.
as you can see

in the 12 around 1...no octahedrons appear.

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


But I'm talking about in the fcc sphere packing, not

the 12-around-1 considered in isolation.


Think of having a few hundred layers of spheres, and

nevermind about the outer edge.  The IVM is the "ocean"

of tetrahedra and octahedra, as suggested by Escher

print, top right of this page:


http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/synergetica/synergetica3.html


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>but 6 1/2 octahedrons do.  i
will grant you that

the logical extension of 12 around 1 will lead to

an octahedral formation. however, even then...

i contend that this is 2 squared based pyramids.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


I don't see the logical difference between "octahedral

formation" and "2 squared based pyramids".  A semantic

quibble, no?


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>while the octahedron is easily
broken into 2

square based pyramids....the square base pyramid

CANNOT be broken into 2 tetrahedrons!

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


Not with regular tets, that's correct.  But don't lose

sight of the all-important volume vs. shape distinction.

If I fill a plastic bag with water and then poke it

in various ways, the shape will change, but the volume

of water remains constant.  Similarly, you can pour

two tetrahedra of water into each square-based pyramid,

and have it go exactly, just as 3 tetrahedra fill the

cube, and 20 fill the VE (provided edges are scaled

as per the concentric hierarchy).


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>again,

i will grant you that the volume of the squared based pyramid

equals twice the tet volume. therefore, i a proposing

that from a purely structural basis, a square

based pyramid is fundamental and the octahedron

is not fundamental.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


I guess I don't really understand your use of "fundamental",

but if you have some useful role for it in your language,

more power to ya.


In synergetics language, the octahedron is one of the 3

structurally stable systems made from identical triangles:

tetrahedron, octahedron, icosahedron.  It's omnitriangulated.

The square-based pyramid will be structurally wobbly (like

the cube) unless diagonalized -- because squares are

structurally weak (which is why the VE as a whole is not

stable either -- but the icosahedron, a jitterbugged VE,

is).


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>while this may seem to be a
picky distinction, i feel that

it may be somewhat significant as it deals with structure

as a duality of components, and not just the singular

tetrahedral approach.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


I guess I'll put the burden on you to show me that making

this picky distinction is worth the trouble.  If you're

saying that Fuller tries to build everything out of

regular tetrahedra, that's not correct.  The regular tet

analyzes into 24 A modules, but A modules are not sufficient

to build the VE, or the half-octahedron.  You also need

B modules to do that.  Once you have both As and Bs, you

can build a lot, but not the 5-fold symmetric shapes, which

is where the S and T modules come in (or invent some other

modular system, ala Yashushi Kajikawa's).


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>Both patterns occur, but the
tetra

"voids" occur twice as frequently.

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>i am not sure that i agree here
either...perhaps i do not

know what you mean by tetra "voids" and half-octa "voids" ?

can you detail how this is 2 to 1 ratio ?

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>steve

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


Fill space with closest packed spheres ala the fcc.  You can

do it in layers: hexagonal packing on top of hexagonal packing

(but don't get the hcp instead).  Now connect adjacent (i.e.

"kissing") spheres with edges, running sphere-center to

sphere-center.  Now disappear the spheres, leaving only the

edges, the scaffolding, the latticework.  That's the IVM.

Here's a picture:


http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s04/figs/f2002.html


(same one ripped off by that limited liability corporation

and "copyrighted" -- a thread before you joined).


Do you see the octahedra in that tetrahedron?  Those are

the octahedra I'm talking about, which, in complement with

the tetrahedron, fill space.


The way to see the 2:1 ratio of tets:octs is to bring up

that hexahedron Dick Fischbeck brought up on Dec 24:

made of an octahedron with two tetrahedra glued to

opposite faces.  This thing fills space and defines the

IVM lattice.  Given it consists of 2 tets and 1 octa,

the 2:1 ratio is thereby established.


Kirby
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Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:07:13 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: getting linked up
In-Reply-To:  <200012311420_MC2-C034-1F5D@compuserve.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>     Dividing into paragraphs was a problem with the free software I used
>to build that page.  I felt anyone really interested could overlook that
>shortfall.   Bob
>

I scanned it some.  Looks like a glue language:  is a unified
theory in the sense of something you use to keep your head together.
I use lots of glue language too, some of it pointing to judeo-xtian
texts, as yours does.  Certainly that's one way to go.

Beyond that, I'd want to see how your metaphysical machinery does
work in the real world.  I look for where analysts take positions
on some (if not all) issues of the day.  You test the power of a
glue by stressing it, test machinery by making it perform.

So, that being said, there's limited feedback I can give just
by studying your web site.  I like the graphics, which embody
familiar principles -- a known territory, but fun to see it
presented aesthetically by others, with a different spin.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 12:34:56 -0800
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Still don't get 'scp "unit cell"'
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE597cvO49sKca0000239c@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Steve --

Note:  I still don't yet understand your use of "s.c.p. unit cell"
on http://www.dsuper.net/~tinom/ph2000/SYNERG.html

The scp (vs. bcc, hcp, and ccp (=fcc=ivm)) is well-described at:
http://www.seas.upenn.edu:8080/~chem101/sschem/metallicsolids.html

How does your unit cell fit with this depiction of the scp?

Kirby

PS:  thanx for fixing the link to my 'Beyond Flatland'
essay.  For more along these lines (phasing a 'Beyond
Flatland' approach into K-12), see:

http://www.mathforum.com/epigone/math-teach/frerterdbloo
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 15:56:09 -0500
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Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      half-octas are fundamental ?
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kirby,

you wrote,

...You're definitely correct that the VE consists of 8 regular
tets and 6 regular half-octas. But what I'm saying is
Bucky never disagrees with that or says otherwise. Check
out this picture:

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s02/figs/f2230.html

The half-octas are there, as clear as day. You seem to
suggest Fuller doesn't "acknowledge" them somehow, and I
don't understand that criticism.
.........................................................................=
..............

so then i guess i am mistaken, are you saying that Fuller=20
would agree that the tet is not the only fundamental component...
and that the half-octa was fundamental too ?=20

for that is my criticism....the requirement for the inclusion of=20
half-octas to be seen as fundamental. as to what i mean by
fundamental, well, i mean ....not able to be divided into=20
further sub-groups from a PHYSICAL and mathematical,
conceptual sense. this now starts to border on the semantic.
for example....do 2 halves of an apple =3D an apple. so, by=20
fundamental...i mean basic, simplest, elementary.=20
( from a mathematical view )....from a physical view,
 there are no tets or square based pyramids. only spheres
and "voids".

it is my impression that Fuller saw his lattice composed purely
of tetrahedrons that would cover all space...perhaps this is only
my misconception ? or perhaps i am getting=20
confused by the differences in terms, IVM,VE, f.c.c, s.c.p.
hexagonal packing, and cuboctrahedral packing.=20
( i tend to see these as all versions of the same lattice...only=20
seen from different orientations. )

 i do not see the PHYSICAL lattice as such at all. i see it as shown=20
on the my synergetics page.  i have heard no objection about my=20
depiction here and so assume that there is none here either.

so, i guess we agree ?

steve




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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kirby,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>you =
wrote,<BR><?/smaller><?/fontfamily><BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller>...You're=20
definitely correct that the VE consists of 8 regular<BR>tets and 6 =
regular=20
half-octas. But what I'm saying is<BR>Bucky never disagrees with that or =
says=20
otherwise. Check<BR>out this=20
picture:<BR><BR>http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s02/figs/f2230.=
html<BR><BR>The=20
half-octas are there, as clear as day. You seem to<BR>suggest Fuller =
doesn't=20
"acknowledge" them somehow, and I<BR>don't understand that=20
criticism.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>................................................................=
.......................</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>so then i guess&nbsp;i am mistaken, are =
you saying=20
that Fuller </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>would agree that the tet is =
not</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2> the only fundamental component...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and that the half-octa </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>was fundamental too ? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>for that is my criticism....the =
requirement for the=20
inclusion of </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>half-octas to be</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>=20
seen as fundamental. as to what i mean by</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>fundamental, well, i mean ....not able =
to be=20
divided into </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>further sub-groups from a PHYSICAL and=20
mathematical,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>conceptual sense. this now starts to =
border on the=20
semantic.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>for example....do 2 halves of an apple =
=3D an apple.=20
so, by </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>fundamental...i mean basic, simplest, =
elementary.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>( from a mathematical view )....from a =
physical=20
view,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;there are no tets or square based =
pyramids.=20
only spheres</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and "voids".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it is my impression that Fuller =
saw&nbsp;his=20
lattice composed purely</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>of</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
tetrahedrons that=20
would cover all space...perhaps this is only</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>my misconception&nbsp;? or perhaps i am =
getting=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>confused by the differences in terms, =
IVM,VE,=20
f.c.c, s.c.p.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>hexagonal packing, and cuboctrahedral =
packing.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>( i tend to see these as all versions =
of the same=20
lattice...only </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>seen from different orientations. =
)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;i do not see the</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> PHYSICAL lattice as such at all. i see it as shown =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>on the my </FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>synergetics page.&nbsp; i have heard no objection about my =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>depiction here and so assume that there =
is none=20
here either.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>so, i guess we agree ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>steve</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00F4_01C07342.3184DAC0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:54:03 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      bcc ccp fcc
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kirby,

thanks for the continued exchange. i think we are getting
to the bottom here finally. on the site you sent me to,
 i would like to comment.

what i have been trying to say is that bcc and ccp ( and fcc)
are all one in the same! that's it...i will try to further explain...

when either bcc [ 6 vectors] or ccp=20
[ 8 vectors ] is viewed along a translated axes=20
( x and y and z =3D +45 degrees) it becomes the other !!!

this is my method 1
 [ viewing the s.c.p. along the 6 coordinate axes...
each having identical bcc formatting ]=20
and my  method 2  [ viewing along any one of 8 axes where
+/- x =3D +/- y =3D + /- z....the center of each of the 8 quadrants
defined by the xyz axes.=20

the same s.c.p. seen=20
from 2 different prospective.  bcc is ccp. ccp is bcc.

as an analogy...it is 2 mints in one.

i suggest that hcp and sc do not exist in normal natural=20
Physical s.c.p.(due to gravitational considerations),=20
but do exist for mathematical s.c.p.

a key to this "understanding" is certainly embodied in the
final diagram of my thoughts towards synergetics.

ps i am sorry to have messed up in connecting your=20
site properly. i suspect there are other things there=20
unconnected too. i struggle trying to get all the html,
spelling etc. corrected.  as you probably noticed i sent=20
my initial posting twice....

oh well, this missing connection screw up was certainly
unintentional and i hope by now you know i really=20
appreciate your feedback and help through these=20
many years. lets repeat that adventure we had when we
first started to compare algorithms. now that was a fun=20
and exciting time.=20


=20





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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kirby,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>thanks for the continued exchange. i =
think we are=20
getting</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to the bottom here finally. on the site =
you sent me=20
to,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;i would like to =
comment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>what i have been trying to say is =
that&nbsp;bcc and=20
ccp ( and fcc)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>are all one in the same!&nbsp;that's =
it...i will=20
try to further explain...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>when either&nbsp;bcc [ 6 vectors] or =
ccp=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>[ 8 vectors ] is viewed </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>along a translated axes </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>( x and y and z =3D +45 degrees) it =
becomes the other=20
!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>this is my method 1</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;[ viewing the s.c.p. =
along</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2> the 6 coordinate axes...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>each having identical</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> bcc formatting ] </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and my&nbsp; method 2&nbsp; [ viewing =
along any one=20
of 8 axes where</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>+/- x =3D +/- y =3D + /- z....the =
center of each of the=20
8 quadrants</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>defined by the xyz =
axes.</FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the same s.c.p. seen </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>from 2 different =
prospective.&nbsp;&nbsp;bcc is=20
ccp. ccp is bcc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>as an analogy...it is 2 mints in =
one.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i suggest that hcp&nbsp;and sc do not =
exist in=20
normal natural </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Physical s.c.p.</FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>(due=20
to gravitational considerations), </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but do exist for </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>mathematical s.c.p.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a key to this "understanding" is =
certainly embodied=20
in the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>final diagram of&nbsp;my thoughts =
towards=20
synergetics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ps i am sorry to have messed up in =
connecting your=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>site properly. i suspect there are =
other things=20
there </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>unconnected too. i struggle trying to =
get all the=20
html,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>spelling&nbsp;etc. corrected.&nbsp; as =
you probably=20
noticed i sent </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>my initial </FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>posting</FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> =
twice....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>oh well, this missing connection screw =
up was=20
certainly</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>unintentional </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>and i=20
hope by now you know i really </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>appreciate&nbsp;your feedback and help =
through=20
these </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>many years. lets repeat that adventure =
we had when=20
we</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>first started to compare algorithms. =
now that was a=20
fun </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>and exciting time. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0106_01C0734A.483CEB60--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:19:20 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: half-octas are fundamental ?
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE44DDgQWUaD0H00002590@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>so then i guess i am mistaken,
are you saying that Fuller

would agree that the tet is not the only fundamental component...

and that the half-octa was fundamental too ?

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


He goes further, to analyze the tetrahedron

and half-octahedron into smaller modules:

A and B.  If there's a role for "fundamental",

it might be with regard to those.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>for that is my criticism....the
requirement for the inclusion of

half-octas to be seen as fundamental. as to what i mean by

fundamental, well, i mean ....not able to be divided into

further sub-groups from a PHYSICAL and mathematical,

conceptual sense. this now starts to border on the semantic.

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


Not sure what you mean by "sub-groups".  But

since Fuller does dissect both the regular tet

and the octa (or half-octa), I guess you could

say he regards neither as "fundamental" in

that sense.  On the other hand, he's not a

big fan of the word "fundamental":


  527.704  There is also trouble with the word

  fundamental. It means foundational when there

  are no foundations . . . no two-dimensional

  planar base. The Earth and other objects are

  co-orbiting the Sun at 60,000 miles per hour

  and are gravitationally tethered to one another.

  The word foundation implies an impossible

  standing-still-somewhere in Universe . . .

  on a solid and square or planar base.


He prefers the word "primitive".


The tetrahedron is primitive in the sense that it

has the fewest edges, openings, vertices of any

volumetric enclosure.  This is a property of

tetrahedra in general, not just regular tetrahedra.

In this sense, the tetrahedron is the "primitive

system" in synergetics.  The half-octahedron would

not be, as it has more edges, vertices and openings

than necessary to define the minimal enclosure.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>for example....do 2 halves of an
apple = an apple. so, by

fundamental...i mean basic, simplest, elementary.

( from a mathematical view )....from a physical view,

 there are no tets or square based pyramids. only spheres

and "voids".

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


Your "mathematical" versus "physical" distinction

could use some more elaboration.  Fuller doesn't

consider spheres to be physical, i.e. on further

analysis they prove to be networks, more polyhedral

(a soccer ball has chemical structure).


No "perfect solids" of the kind imagined by the

Greeks, are known to exist, as energy is not

"fundamentally" a solid experience.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>it is my impression that Fuller
saw his lattice composed purely

of tetrahedrons that would cover all space...perhaps this is only

my misconception ? or perhaps i am getting

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


But I've shown you pictures of "his" lattice -- they've

been out there on the web for years.  It's the fcc.

Alexander Graham Bell was also interested in it.  It's

also known as the octet truss:


http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/octet.html

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ivm.html


You can't fill space with regular tetrahedra.  Fuller

knew this as well as anyone.  You _can_ fill space

with irregular tetrahedra.  However, the IVM (or

isotropic vector matrix) is defined be tetrahedra

and octahedra.  There's no reason to have any confusion

about this, as Fuller is crystal clear about it.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>confused by the differences in
terms, IVM,VE, f.c.c, s.c.p.

hexagonal packing, and cuboctrahedral packing.

( i tend to see these as all versions of the same lattice...only

seen from different orientations. )

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


f.c.c. is not s.c.p. -- I've pointed you to the chemistry

pages which spell out the difference.  Nor is f.c.c. = h.c.p.,

even though they have the same packing density (sphere:void

ratio).


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller> i do not see the PHYSICAL
lattice as such at all. i see it as shown

on the my synergetics page.  i have heard no objection about my

depiction here and so assume that there is none here either.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


I don't see a lattice on your synergetics page.  I see

what you identify as an "s.c.p. unit cell", but so far

that seems to be a misidentification.  Based on what

you've said above (that you mix s.c.p, f.c.c., h.c.p.

together without distinction), you really don't yet

have an even minimal understanding of these concepts.

But if you study the pages I pointed to, you can learn

it all in about 10 minutes.  There's nothing difficult

or advanced about any of this stuff (which is why I

think it should be taught in 6th grade or sooner).


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>so, i guess we agree ?

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>steve

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


That the f.c.c. contains [half-]octahedra, most definitely

(Fuller agrees too).


Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:26:58 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: half-octas are fundamental ?
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.20001231141920.00926e00@pop.teleport.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

<excerpt>

He goes further, to analyze the tetrahedron

and half-octahedron into smaller modules:

A and B.  If there's a role for "fundamental",

it might be with regard to those.


</excerpt><<<<<<<<


PS:  see

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/figs/plate17.html


for a look at both (a) the IVM and (b) a MITE,

space-filling tetrahedron comprised of 2 As and 1 B module.


Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:58:37 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      focus on bcc and ccp
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kirby...you wrote
He prefers the word "primitive".

The tetrahedron is primitive in the sense that it
has the fewest edges, openings, vertices of any
volumetric enclosure. This is a property of
tetrahedra in general, not just regular tetrahedra.
In this sense, the tetrahedron is the "primitive
system" in synergetics. The half-octahedron would
not be, as it has more edges, vertices and openings
than necessary to define the minimal enclosure.

>>>>

true. and therefore that would exclude the 1/2 octa=20
as not being a "primitive system". i believe this should be
included in this category, even though they do not
meet this minimalistic parameter.=20


Your "mathematical" versus "physical" distinction
could use some more elaboration. Fuller doesn't
consider spheres to be physical, i.e. on further
analysis they prove to be networks, more polyhedral
(a soccer ball has chemical structure).

i have some views on this ...at=20
www.welcome.to/physics2000/MATHVS




  it is my impression that Fuller saw his lattice composed purely
  of tetrahedrons that would cover all space...perhaps this is only
  my misconception ? or perhaps i am getting

<<<<

But I've shown you pictures of "his" lattice -- they've
been out there on the web for years. It's the fcc.
Alexander Graham Bell was also interested in it. It's
also known as the octet truss:

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/octet.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ivm.html

yes, of course....please excuse me, i have not been
using any of these terms for years. i am quite aware of
how spheres pack. i am a bit rusty with  the=20
distinctions and pertinent terminology.=20

You can't fill space with regular tetrahedra. Fuller
knew this as well as anyone. You _can_ fill space
with irregular tetrahedra. However, the IVM (or
isotropic vector matrix) is defined be tetrahedra
and octahedra. There's no reason to have any confusion
about this, as Fuller is crystal clear about it.

i am crystal clear with the concepts too. this is not
a logic error on my part as much as trying to remember
stuff i knew before.=20



>>>> =20
                 confused by the differences in terms, IVM,VE, f.c.c, =
s.c.p.
                 hexagonal packing, and cuboctrahedral packing.
                 ( i tend to see these as all versions of the same =
lattice...only
                 seen from different orientations. )


<<<<
sorry, i meant to say "most of these versions" not all....sc and hcp=20
i do not see the same.=20

f.c.c. is not s.c.p. -- I've pointed you to the chemistry

i checked this out and would still maintain that=20
all bcc are ccp too !  they are one in the same.

pages which spell out the difference. Nor is f.c.c. =3D h.c.p.,
i do not think i said that. anyway....i would agree.
>>>>



  i do not see the PHYSICAL lattice as such at all. i see it as shown
  on the my synergetics page. i have heard no objection about my
  depiction here and so assume that there is none here either.


<<<<

I don't see a lattice on your synergetics page. I see
what you identify as an "s.c.p. unit cell", but so far
that seems to be a misidentification.

yes, i guess i should not call my "diagram" that. i was=20
trying to show the inter-relationship between alternating=20
vertical levels. perhaps i need to have a real unit cell here...
i have not contemplated this before....i will give it some thought.


 Based on what
you've said above (that you mix s.c.p, f.c.c., h.c.p.
together without distinction), you really don't yet
have an even minimal understanding of these concepts.

all the concepts, and packing i get...just a little lame
 on my terms....remembering which is which.=20
i have been working for the last year on trying to link pi
to about 150 physical constants. and my mind is still=20
flooded with that work.=20

let me try it this way...

i contend that bcc and ccp are not exclusive....
but they are one in the same. =20
nothing fancy. nothing complicated.

this is the  connection i would like to focus on.

are these one in the same or not when more than
 just a few spheres are included?


kirby, may i wish you a very happy upcoming year.

steve












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<HTML><HEAD>
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kirby...you wrote<BR>He prefers the =
word=20
"primitive".<BR><BR>The tetrahedron is primitive in the sense that =
it<BR>has the=20
fewest edges, openings, vertices of any<BR>volumetric enclosure. This is =
a=20
property of<BR>tetrahedra in general, not just regular tetrahedra.<BR>In =
this=20
sense, the tetrahedron is the "primitive<BR>system" in synergetics. The=20
half-octahedron would<BR>not be, as it has more edges, vertices and=20
openings<BR>than necessary to define the minimal=20
enclosure.<BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>true. and therefore&nbsp;that would =
exclude the 1/2=20
octa </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>as not </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>being a=20
"primitive system". i believe this should be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>included in this category, even though =
they do=20
not</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>meet this minimalistic parameter. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR><BR>Your "mathematical" versus =
"physical"=20
distinction<BR>could use some more elaboration. Fuller =
doesn't<BR>consider=20
spheres to be physical, i.e. on further<BR>analysis they prove to be =
networks,=20
more polyhedral<BR>(a soccer ball has chemical structure).<BR><BR>i have =
some=20
views on this ...at </DIV>
<DIV><A=20
href=3D"http://www.welcome.to/physics2000/MATHVS">www.welcome.to/physics2=
000/MATHVS</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller>it is my impression =
that=20
  Fuller saw his lattice composed purely<BR>of tetrahedrons that would =
cover all=20
  space...perhaps this is only<BR>my misconception ? or perhaps i am =
getting<BR><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<BR><BR>But I've shown you pictures of "his" =
lattice --=20
they've<BR>been out there on the web for years. It's the =
fcc.<BR>Alexander=20
Graham Bell was also interested in it. It's<BR>also known as the octet=20
truss:<BR><BR>http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/octet.html<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ivm.html">http://www.teleport.com/=
~pdx4d/ivm.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>yes, of course....please excuse me, i have not been</DIV>
<DIV>using any of these terms for years. i am quite aware of</DIV>
<DIV>how spheres pack. i am a bit rusty with&nbsp; the </DIV>
<DIV>distinctions and pertinent terminology. <BR><BR>You can't fill =
space with=20
regular tetrahedra. Fuller<BR>knew this as well as anyone. You _can_ =
fill=20
space<BR>with irregular tetrahedra. However, the IVM (or<BR>isotropic =
vector=20
matrix) is defined be tetrahedra<BR>and octahedra. There's no reason to =
have any=20
confusion<BR>about this, as Fuller is crystal clear about it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>i am crystal clear with the concepts too. this is not</DIV>
<DIV>a&nbsp;logic error on my part as much as trying to remember</DIV>
<DIV>stuff i knew before. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
<BR><?fontfamily><?param =
Arial><?smaller>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
confused by the differences in terms, IVM,VE, f.c.c,=20
s.c.p.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
 hexagonal packing, and cuboctrahedral=20
packing.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;&nbsp; ( i tend to see these as all versions of the same=20
lattice...only<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
seen from different orientations. =
)<BR><?/smaller><?/fontfamily><BR></DIV>
<DIV>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;</DIV>
<DIV>sorry, i meant to say "most of these versions" not all....sc and =
hcp </DIV>
<DIV>i do not see the same. <BR><BR>f.c.c. is not s.c.p. -- I've pointed =
you to=20
the chemistry</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>i checked this out and would still maintain that </DIV>
<DIV>all bcc&nbsp;are ccp too !&nbsp; they are one in the same.</DIV>
<DIV><BR>pages which spell out the difference. Nor is f.c.c. =3D =
h.c.p.,</DIV>
<DIV>i do not think i said that. anyway....i would=20
agree.<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><?fontfamily><?param Arial><?smaller>i do not see the =
PHYSICAL=20
  lattice as such at all. i see it as shown<BR>on the my synergetics =
page. i=20
  have heard no objection about my<BR>depiction here and so assume that =
there is=20
  none here either.<BR><?/smaller><?/fontfamily><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<BR><BR>I don't see a lattice on your synergetics =
page. I=20
see<BR>what you identify as an "s.c.p. unit cell", but so far<BR>that =
seems to=20
be a misidentification.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>yes, i guess i should not call my "diagram" that. i was </DIV>
<DIV>trying to show the inter-relationship between alternating </DIV>
<DIV>vertical levels. perhaps i need to have a real unit cell =
here...</DIV>
<DIV>i have not contemplated this before....i will give it some =
thought.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;Based on what<BR>you've said above (that you mix s.c.p, =
f.c.c.,=20
h.c.p.<BR>together without distinction), you really don't yet<BR>have an =
even=20
minimal understanding of these concepts.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>all the concepts, and packing i get...just a little lame</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;on my terms....remembering which is which. </DIV>
<DIV>i have been working for the last year on trying to link pi</DIV>
<DIV>to about 150 physical constants. and my mind is still </DIV>
<DIV>flooded with that work. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>let me try it this way...</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>i contend that bcc and ccp are not exclusive....</DIV>
<DIV>but they are one in the same.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>nothing fancy. nothing complicated.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>this is the&nbsp; connection i would like to focus on.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>are these one in the same or not when more than</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;just a few spheres are included?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>kirby, may i wish you a very happy upcoming year.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>steve</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:04:09 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: focus on bcc and ccp
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE34T8vWyu9kst000026c6@hotmail.com>
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<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>true. and therefore that would
exclude the 1/2 octa

as not being a "primitive system". i believe this should be

included in this category, even though they do not

meet this minimalistic parameter.


</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


You're free to define your terms as you will.  As

with Bucky's stuff, the hard part is persuading people

that it's worth the trouble to decode unfamiliar usage

patterns in order to get at the core meanings.  In

Fuller's case, I've personally found it worth my time

to plough through his remotely-based vocabulary.


Anyway, you'd probably do well not to clarify your

meanings by making distinctions vis-a-vis Fuller, since

precious few have bothered with Fuller in the first

place, or just gave 'Synergetics' a cursory scan.

'Synergetics' remains obscure.  My goal is to see

to it that some of its best ideas get a firm foothold

in the standard curriculum, by which I mean ordinary

elementary through high school (K-12 we call it in the

USA).


<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

i have some views on this ...at

<<http://www.welcome.to/physics2000/MATHVS>www.welcome.to/physics2000/MATHVS



</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


That URL doesn't work for me.


<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

yes, of course....please excuse me, i have not been

using any of these terms for years. i am quite aware of

how spheres pack. i am a bit rusty with  the

distinctions and pertinent terminology.


</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


OK, it's just that you joined this list with a poem

saying you had some core problem with Fuller's approach.

Apparently this mostly traces to foggy memory.  Now

that you're remembering, it appears that you and Bucky

aren't saying anything different about how spheres

close pack.

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>>>>>

                 confused by the differences in terms, IVM,VE, f.c.c,
s.c.p.

                hexagonal packing, and cuboctrahedral packing.

                 ( i tend to see these as all versions of the same
lattice...only

                 seen from different orientations. )


<<<<<<<<

sorry, i meant to say "most of these versions" not all....sc and hcp

i do not see the same.


</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


OK.  I thought by "hexagonal packing" you meant hcp.

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>i contend that bcc and ccp are
not exclusive....

but they are one in the same.

nothing fancy. nothing complicated.



this is the  connection i would like to focus on.


</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


No, not the same.  What is true is if you have a layer

of spheres packed in squares, and stack another layer

of squares atop that, and so on, that you get the ccp

(or fcc).  In other words:


     * *     * * *       * * * *

     * *     * * *       * * * *

             * * *       * * * *

                         * * * *


stacked one atop the other gives you the fcc.  This is

what you see happening with the 6 half-octahedral sections

of the VE, as you pack outward, adding successive layers

of 12, 42, 92, 162... spheres (cuboctahedral conformation).


I think this layering arrangement is what you're getting

at with your "s.c.p. unit cell", however misnamed.


However, the above layering of square packings is _not_

the same as the bcc.  The bcc is like your "Cartesian unit

cell" at the left, with a point at the center, and a point

at each of the 8 corners of the cube.  It's a real cube,

not an elongated parallelepiped with proportions root(2):1,

as on the right.


>>>>

<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

are these one in the same or not when more than

 just a few spheres are included?





kirby, may i wish you a very happy upcoming year.



steve

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

</smaller></fontfamily><<<<<<<<


Ditto Steve, ditto.  2000 was very rough going.


Kirby


>>>>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 21:18:50 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      bcc unit cell
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kirby,

i have examined the chemistry site at=20
greater length. i find it interesting that=20
the bcc density is less than 74.

while the bcc unit cell shows a gap along its=20
equator, as it should, i believe the four spheres
at the top four corners should all touch=20
two others and there should be no gap !
the same being true for the bottom four.

i suspect that the arises from his initial depiction=20
of the 2-d for bcc. while he views it as a group of 5=20
spheres rotated by 45 degrees...i see it as=20
9 spheres....not as a diamond shape but in=20
the shape of a square.=20
 i also see his bcc as but 9 of the 12 around 1.=20
( by removing the 4 equatorial spheres)
i suggest that his bcc unit shell should have
 relative values of x=3D1, y=3D1 z=3Droot2. he has it as=20
root2,root2,root2 respectively...which i must
continue to question.=20

should this modification be made then...i predict,  it=20
will be end up at 74 density and bcc will have the same unit cell(s)
as does the ccp.
 (i actually see two cases here .....either sphere centered or void =
center)....where bcc is ccp.

as i envision it....if his bcc unit cell is amended it will be
my unit cell .....for sphere centered.=20

his final depiction on the chemistry site then would be
my unit cell...for void centered.


so, i have not quit on this odd attempt to link bcc at 68 density,
being one in the same as the ccp at 74 density.  i should mention that
my connection to all the physical constants was not directly by pi, =
instead=20
they were connected by the extended 74 density figure ! i use the =
density=20
figure and call it "the sphere packing constant".  i believe i have =
found
a mathematical connection to all the empirical wavelengths for hydrogen.

but i do not want to digress. i seems we do agree on several if not many
 issues. please run with the thought that i will admit defeat when =
appropriate.
 i think we are going to resolve this [my insistence of a dualistic =
approach]
soon enough...one way or the other. =20

perhaps it is his bcc unit cell that is wrong...perhaps it is my
interpretation of what his visual depiction means. =20
is he saying that each sphere only touches 8 other spheres here in bcc ?
i believe in addition to these eight touch points....there are four more =

around the equator. since his bcc depiction has equal spacing at the
equator and the two poles, then he would require an additional 6 touch=20
points...bringing him to 14...which is obviously wrong. so, it must be=20
only 8 touch points for his bcc unit cell depiction to possibly be =
valid.

i also do not see the logic of selectively removing 1/3 of the spheres
 at root 1 distance from a central sphere...(origin)

has he actually generated this bcc unit cell in an array and gotten a=20
repetitive bcc format ? are the four missing spheres not included due
to some mathematical or physical logic i wonder ?







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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kirby,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i have examined the chemistry site at =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>greater length. i find it interesting =
that=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the bcc density is less than =
74.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>while the bcc unit cell shows a gap =
along its=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>equator, as it should, i believe the =
four=20
spheres</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>at the top four corners should all =
touch=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>two others and there should be no=20
gap&nbsp;!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the same being true for the bottom=20
four.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i suspect that the arises from his =
initial=20
depiction </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>of the 2-d </FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>for bcc.=20
while he views it as a group of 5 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>spheres&nbsp;rotated by 45 degrees...i =
see it as=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>9 spheres....not as a diamond shape but =
in=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>the shape of a =
square.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;i also see his bcc as but =
9</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2> of the 12 around 1.&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>( by removing the 4 equatorial=20
spheres)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i suggest that his bcc unit =
shell</FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2> should have</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;relative values of </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>x=3D1, y=3D1 z=3Droot2. he has it as </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>root2,root2,root2 respectively...which =
i=20
must</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>continue to question. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>should&nbsp;this modification&nbsp;be =
made then...i=20
predict,&nbsp; it </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>will be end up at </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial size=3D2>74=20
density and bcc will have the same unit cell(s)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>as does the ccp.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;(i actually see two cases here =
.....either=20
sphere centered or void center)....where bcc is ccp.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>as i envision it....if his bcc unit =
cell is amended=20
it will be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>my unit cell .....for sphere centered.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>his&nbsp;final depiction on the =
chemistry site then=20
would be</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>my unit cell...for void =
centered.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>so, i have not quit on this odd attempt =
to link bcc=20
at 68 density,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>being one in the same as the ccp at 74=20
density.&nbsp; i should mention that</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>my connection to all the physical =
constants was=20
not&nbsp;directly by pi, instead </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>they were connected by the extended 74 =
density=20
figure ! i use the density </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>figure and call it "the sphere packing=20
constant".&nbsp; i believe i have found</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a mathematical connection to all the =
empirical=20
wavelengths for hydrogen.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>but i do not want to digress. i seems =
we do agree=20
on several if not many</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;issues. please </FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>run with the thought that i will admit defeat when=20
appropriate.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;i think</FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2> we are=20
going to resolve this [my insistence of a dualistic =
approach]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>soon enough...one way or the =
other.&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>perhaps it is his bcc unit cell that is =

wrong...perhaps it is my</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>interpretation of what his visual =
depiction=20
means.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>is he saying that each sphere only =
touches 8 other=20
spheres here in bcc ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i believe in addition to these eight =
touch=20
points....there are four more </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>around the equator. since his bcc =
depiction has=20
equal spacing at the</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>equator and the two poles, then he =
would require an=20
additional 6 touch </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>points...bringing him to 14...which is =
obviously=20
wrong. so, it must be </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>only 8 touch points for his bcc unit =
cell depiction=20
to possibly be valid.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>i also do not see the logic of =
selectively removing=20
1/3 of the spheres</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;at root 1 distance from a central =

sphere...(origin)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>has he actually&nbsp;generated this bcc =
unit=20
cell&nbsp;in an array and gotten a </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>repetitive bcc format ? are the four =
missing=20
spheres not included due</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to some mathematical or physical logic =
i wonder=20
?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C0736F.456B5500--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 21:25:34 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      10 mean proportional elements
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Message text written by "List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's
works"
>      The basic units are the 10 "Mean Proportional" elements
>>>how are these derived...are these all divisions and sub divisions
of a tetrahedron ? do you involve half-octa ( squared based pyramid ) =

divisions and sub-divisions too   steve<

     The "10 Mean Proportional" elements combine into the basic compounds=

known as Platonic and Archimedean solids.  These combine in a fractal
manner  into progressively larger compounds of the Platonic & Archimedean=

series and in combination with the 13th element combine into tetrahedron =
&
octahedron progressives.  There being two types of progressions, one bein=
g
u(n+1)=3Du(n)+1 and the other being the mean proportional series.  =

       =
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:42:02 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dick Fischbeck <dick_fischbeck@YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Re: focus on bcc and ccp
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

--- Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> kirby...you wrote
> He prefers the word "primitive".
>
> The tetrahedron is primitive in the sense that it
> has the fewest edges, openings, vertices of any
> volumetric enclosure. This is a property of
> tetrahedra in general, not just regular tetrahedra.
> In this sense, the tetrahedron is the "primitive
> system" in synergetics. The half-octahedron would
> not be, as it has more edges, vertices and openings
> than necessary to define the minimal enclosure.
>
> >>>>
>
> true. and therefore that would exclude the 1/2 octa
> as not being a "primitive system". i believe this
> should be
> included in this category, even though they do not
> meet this minimalistic parameter.
>

 The square-based pyramid requires 8 vectors to be
defined. If you divide an octa into two part, each
part will have 6 vextors. You are short two vextors, I
think. Like Kirby said, it's not a structure(it's
untriangled, (how's that for a verb)).

Dick
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:16:54 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Waterman <swaterman117@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      bcc/ccp  issue on hold
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kirby,

You're free to define your terms as you will. As
with Bucky's stuff, the hard part is persuading people
that it's worth the trouble to decode unfamiliar usage
patterns in order to get at the core meanings.

excellent point....we all seem to seek our own tangent.
it is nice when the words act as a gateway to our
visions and thoughts.

 In Fuller's case, I've personally found it worth my time
to plough through his remotely-based vocabulary.

he needed a new way to speak, to group, to link and=20
necessity created his language to describe.


'Synergetics' remains obscure. My goal is to see
to it that some of its best ideas get a firm foothold
in the standard curriculum, by which I mean ordinary
elementary through high school (K-12 we call it in the
USA).

too bad there are not more like you, with the dedication
to ideas and ensuring their propagation into the minds of the young.



  i have some views on this math vs physical issues...at
  www.welcome.to/physics2000/MATHVS

  That URL doesn't work for me.
  i think this is right  or if not...
  ...you could just go to the alphabetical list and go to math vs =
physical


  it appears that you and Bucky
  aren't saying anything different about how spheres
  close pack.

        i contend that bcc and ccp are not exclusive....
        but they are one in the same.
           nothing fancy. nothing complicated.
  this is the connection i would like to focus on.


<<<<

No, not the same. What is true is if you have a layer
of spheres packed in squares, and stack another layer
of squares atop that, and so on, that you get the ccp
(or fcc). In other words:

not according to the chemistry site. the ccp is=20
NOT square packed there.

* * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * *
* * * *

stacked one atop the other gives you the fcc. This is
what you see happening with the 6 half-octahedral sections
of the VE, as you pack outward, adding successive layers
of 12, 42, 92, 162... spheres (cuboctahedral conformation).

I think this layering arrangement is what you're getting
at with your "s.c.p. unit cell", however misnamed.

trying to...a bit unsuccessfully it seems.

However, the above layering of square packings is _not_
the same as the bcc. The bcc is like your "Cartesian unit
cell" at the left, with a point at the center, and a point
at each of the 8 corners of the cube.

a point representing the centers of 9 spheres then ?

 It's a real cube,
not an elongated parallelepiped with proportions root(2):1,
as on the right.

this is what i question...i do not think a real cube is appropriate

but enough of this concentration for now.


>>>>


  2000 was very rough going.

  time for a little change then....may some good fortune and piece of
  mind be a more constant companion for you this year !


  ps....this looks like it is going to take a few more emails...so i =
will take=20
   a break for the night....and talk some more perhaps tomorrow...the =
first=20
  day of the new millennium. =20






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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>kirby,<BR><BR>You're free to define =
your terms as=20
you will. As<BR>with Bucky's stuff, the hard part is persuading =
people<BR>that=20
it's worth the trouble to decode unfamiliar usage<BR>patterns in order =
to get at=20
the core meanings.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>excellent point....we all seem to seek =
our own=20
tangent.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it is nice when the words act as a =
gateway to=20
our</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>visions and thoughts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;In Fuller's case, I've personally =
found it=20
worth my time<BR>to plough through his remotely-based =
vocabulary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>he needed a new way to speak, to group, =
to link and=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>necessity created his language to=20
describe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR><BR>'Synergetics' remains obscure. =
My goal is=20
to see<BR>to it that some of its best ideas get a firm foothold<BR>in =
the=20
standard curriculum, by which I mean ordinary<BR>elementary through high =
school=20
(K-12 we call it in the<BR>USA).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>too bad there are not more like you, =
with the=20
dedication</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to ideas and ensuring their propagation =
into the=20
minds of the young.<BR></DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><?fontfamily><?param Arial>i have some views on this math vs =
physical=20
  issues...at<BR>www.welcome.to/physics2000/MATHVS<BR><BR>That URL =
doesn't work=20
  for me.</DIV>
  <DIV>i think this is&nbsp;right  or if not...</DIV>
  <DIV>...you could just go to the alphabetical list and go to math vs=20
  physical<BR><BR><BR>it appears that you and Bucky<BR>aren't saying =
anything=20
  different about how spheres<BR>close=20
pack.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; i =
contend=20
that bcc and ccp are not=20
exclusive....<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; but they are =
one in=20
the =
same.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
nothing fancy. nothing complicated.
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV>this is the connection i would like to focus =
on.<BR><BR></DIV><?/smaller><?/fontfamily></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;<BR><BR>No, not the same. What is true is if you =
have a=20
layer<BR>of spheres packed in squares, and stack another layer<BR>of =
squares=20
atop that, and so on, that you get the ccp<BR>(or fcc). In other =
words:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>not according to the chemistry site. the ccp is </DIV>
<DIV>NOT square packed there.<BR><BR>* * * * * * * * *<BR>* * * * * * * =
* *<BR>*=20
* * * * * *<BR>* * * *<BR><BR>stacked one atop the other gives you the =
fcc. This=20
is<BR>what you see happening with the 6 half-octahedral sections<BR>of =
the VE,=20
as you pack outward, adding successive layers<BR>of 12, 42, 92, 162... =
spheres=20
(cuboctahedral conformation).<BR><BR>I think this layering arrangement =
is what=20
you're getting<BR>at with your "s.c.p. unit cell", however =
misnamed.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>trying to...a bit unsuccessfully it seems.<BR><BR>However, the =
above=20
layering of square packings is _not_<BR>the same as the bcc. The bcc is =
like=20
your "Cartesian unit<BR>cell" at the left, with a point at the center, =
and a=20
point<BR>at each of the 8 corners of the cube.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>a point representing the centers of 9 spheres then ?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;It's a real cube,<BR>not an elongated parallelepiped with =
proportions=20
root(2):1,<BR>as on the right.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>this is what i question...i do not think a real cube is =
appropriate</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>but enough of this concentration for now.</DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV><?fontfamily><?param Arial>2000 was very rough going.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>time for a little change then....may some good fortune and piece =
of</DIV>
  <DIV>mind be a more constant companion for you this year !</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ps....this looks like it is going to take a few more emails...so =
i will=20
  take </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;a break for the night....and talk some more perhaps =
tomorrow...the=20
  first </DIV>
  <DIV>day of the new millennium.&nbsp; </DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><BR><BR><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 22:09:01 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Don Tilley <Peace.lnk@ISPI.NET>
Subject:      Re: [Tetworld] My strategy
Comments: To: Tetworld Peace Through Development Project <Tetworld@listbot.com>
Comments: cc: Tetworld@listbot.com
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Kirby,

About math.  I can't respond to the specific concern you raised.  But I've
substituted (for the first time) this fall in grades 4-12 in social studies
and English.  In the elementary school, where I'm obligated to teach all
subjects, much of the math is still drill and practice on calculations.  I
wish there couild be more hands-on.

Also, in your proposal, how would you deal with the 25% of the youth who
really struggle with math at all grade levels?

I've observed that when students have to solve a problem that they see as
relating  to their own lives, they seem to do better.

Don Tilley


Don Tilley, PO Box 95062, Lincoln, NE 68509  402 466 6622
Peace.Lnk@ispi.net    http://www.igc.apc.org/PeacePark
----- Original Message -----
From: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
<GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Cc: <Tetworld@listbot.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2000 10:53 AM
Subject: [Tetworld] My strategy


> Tetworld Peace Through Development Project - http://netword.com/Tetworld
>
> --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
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>
>
> My strategy:
>
> Since 1997, I've been brainstorming around something I call a
> "math makeover" campaign, meaning I've wanted to see reforms in
> math education.
>
> http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/makeover0.html
>
> For the last few years, we've seen something called the "math
> wars" in the USA, wherein traditionalists call for a return to
> a more conventional math-teaching approach. The traditionalists
> revile so-called "fuzzy math" and got that letter published in
> the Washington Post, signed by lots of mathematicians, decrying
> recent trends in math ed.
>
> http://hoover.org/pubaffairs/we/current/evers_0100.html
>
> I'm not a traditionalist, nor am I necessarily an exponent of
> the curricula approved by "the establishment" (i.e. Dept of
> Education) as "exemplary" (the stuff the Washington Post letter
> was condemning).  I follow my own intuitions in these matters,
> plus I have background as a classroom math teacher in Jersey
> City and text book contributor at McGraw-Hill.
>
> Anyway, one of the reforms I'd like to see is more real
> computer use in math class, instead of just calculators.  The
> math teaching community seems hooked on calculators as
> synonymous with what it means to have "technology in the
> classroom", while meanwhile quasi-ignoring the fact that we
> have free, accessible, very-easy-to-start-using computer
> languages out there, ready to run on computers today -- but
> not used by most kids or their teachers.
>
> As one parent wrote to me about this state of affairs:
>
>    My daughter attends a public school with beautiful
>    Macintosh teaching labs, several computers in every
>    classroom, and either 100MB Ethernet or wireless
>    networks covering the school. However, most of what
>    gets done on the computers is called "multimedia" and
>    I was required to buy my daughter a graphing calculator
>    this year for precalculus...
>
> How easy is it to learn math writing little programs?
>
> Let's take an example. In Synergetics we have this formula
> 10 f^2 + 2, which gives the number of vertices in a geodesic
> sphere (f= frequency), and the number of spheres in layer f
> of a cuboctahedron, when packing successive layers around a
> nuclear sphere: 12, 42, 92, 162 spheres.  I've got an animated
> graphic of this at the top of:
>
> http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/xtals101.html
>
> In Python, you could write this simple formula as a two-line
> program (or even a one-line program):
>
> >>> def cubocta(f):
>        return 10*f*f + 2
>
> ...and then use it interactively at the command line:
>
> >>> cubocta(2)
> 42
> >>> cubocta(10)
> 1002
>
> We have links to virology here as well, and buckyballs too.
>
> http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/virus.html
>
> Suppose you want to know not just how many spheres are in the
> outmost layer, but in all the layers added together?  Another
> easy program:
>
> >>> def allspheres(f):
>        total = 0
>        # loop for i from 2 to f (up to, not incl f+1)
>        for i in range(1,f+1):
>           total = total + (10*i*i + 2)
>        return total + 1       # add nuclear sphere
>
> >>> allspheres(2)
> 55
> >>> allspheres(3)
> 147
>
> Metal clustering experiments show atoms starting in an
> icosahedral shape, but at a certain size transforming to a
> cuboctahedral shape with the same number of total atoms --
> the jitterbug transformation has been found in nature.
>
> http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/synergetica/synergetica2.html
>
> In math we already have what are called the "figurate numbers"
> e.g. the "triangular numbers" (1,3,6,10,15...) which suggest
> spheres organized in a triangle:
>
>           *      *         *           *
>                 * *       * *         * *
>                          * * *       * * *      ...
>                                     * * * *
>
>           1       3         6         10        ...
>
> ...so it's very easy to segue (connect) to spatial figurates,
> such as the tetrahedron, octahedron, icosahedral shell or
> cuboctahedron.  Figurate numbers can be spatial shapes too.
> So this is a way to connect through Bucky's stuff and sphere
> packing in general, from well-known territory already accessible
> to elementary schoolers.  This is the approach I take in
> "Getting Serious About Series":
>
> http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/numeracy0.html
>
> Here you'll find Bucky's contribution being integrated into
> basic math education, along with a "math through programming"
> approach, i.e. I'm showing how we could be using computers,
> not just calculators.
>
> In sum, IF math teachers buy that going with computers over
> calculators might really be a good idea, THEN I'm already
> prepared with some excellent curriculum ideas which seamlessly
> integrates some of the Synergetics material.  My "math through
> programming" materials are quite simply some of the best
> anywhere.
>
> http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/python/2000/10/04/pythonnews.html
>
> So IF we get more computer use in elementary math education
> THEN we will have more opportunities to explore Synergetics
> in K-12 -- and by extension more of Bucky's contribution in
> general (e.g. the focus on an artifact-based approach to raising
> living standards).
>
> That's my approach in a nutshell.
>
> I try to stimulate student interest in all this directly,
> i.e. lets not wait for overspecialization to take its course
> unresisted.  We should question this lack of computers in
> math class, not just accept it as a given.
>
> For example, I think many students have a natural interest
> in cryptography, and whereas you can do a lot with cryptography
> with computers, you can't do so much with calculators -- and
> cryptography is very math-intensive (tends to use big numbers
> -- bigger than a calculator can handle), so there's every
> reason to build it in to everyday math class.  So you see what
> I'm up to in posts such as the following:
>
> http://www.mathforum.org/epigone/k12.ed.math/glaterdphum
> http://www.mathforum.org/epigone/math-teach/zhahcrafah
>
> It's a very simple strategy:  math makeover means more
> intelligent use of computers in early math education means more
> Bucky and synergetics in the curriculum.  Plus we had both
> major candidates for USA president harping on education as a
> priority -- it's already something people want to focus on.
>
> When I'm feeling upbeat, I think:  there's no way we can
> lose.  When I'm feeling depressed I think:  why is it all
> taking so long, why is evolution so goddamn slooooooow??
>
> Kirby
>
> PS:  were we to get more synergetics in the classroom, we
> could get more of it on TV as well, and open the conversation
> re design science.  It would be so easy to take this ongoing
> evening news thread re the power shortage in California,
> and zoom back to talk about the energy grid more globally,
> plus long range plans to keep connecting parts of it together.
> The idea of shunting power back and forth between hemispheres
> should be public knowledge, part of what any half-way
> decently informed human being who watches a lot of TV knows
> about.
>
> This idea that we have to suppress everything to do with Bucky
> and make fun of his ideas, as revenge for something (maybe
> because the Dymaxion House didn't take off as expected in the
> 1940s) just doesn't make much sense.  Or maybe revenge is only
> a motive for some.  For most these days, there's no motive --
> just a gaping hole in their knowledge base.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> To unsubscribe, write to Tetworld-unsubscribe@listbot.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:01:35 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: bcc unit cell
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE53bQ1mtLkFGT00002499@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:18 PM 12/31/2000 -0500, you wrote:

>>>>

<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>kirby,

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>i have examined the chemistry
site at

greater length. i find it interesting that

the bcc density is less than 74.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


Right, which should help persuade you that it's

not the same as the fcc.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>while the bcc unit cell shows a
gap along its

equator, as it should, i believe the four spheres

at the top four corners should all touch

two others and there should be no gap !

the same being true for the bottom four.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


That's true for the fcc -- that's how the standard

drawing goes, and how the IVM spheres are organized.

But the bcc is different.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>i suspect that the arises from
his initial depiction

of the 2-d for bcc. while he views it as a group of 5

spheres rotated by 45 degrees...i see it as

9 spheres....not as a diamond shape but in

the shape of a square.

 i also see his bcc as but 9 of the 12 around 1.

( by removing the 4 equatorial spheres)

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


What you're describing is not the bcc.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>i suggest that his bcc unit
shell should have

 relative values of x=1, y=1 z=root2. he has it as

root2,root2,root2 respectively...which i must

continue to question.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


If it did, it would be the fcc, not the bcc.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>should this modification be made
then...i predict,  it

will be end up at 74 density and bcc will have the same unit cell(s)

as does the ccp.

 (i actually see two cases here .....either sphere centered or void
center)....where bcc is ccp.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


It would, but it wouldn't be the bcc.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>as i envision it....if his bcc
unit cell is amended it will be

my unit cell .....for sphere centered.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


That's not the bcc unit cell though, it's the

fcc.  The two aren't the same.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>his final depiction on the
chemistry site then would be

my unit cell...for void centered.

</smaller></fontfamily>



<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>so, i have not quit on this odd
attempt to link bcc at 68 density,

being one in the same as the ccp at 74 density.  i should mention that

my connection to all the physical constants was not directly by pi,
instead

they were connected by the extended 74 density figure ! i use the density

figure and call it "the sphere packing constant".  i believe i have
found

a mathematical connection to all the empirical wavelengths for
hydrogen.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


Remember, the bcc and fcc have different densities

_because_ they're not the same packing.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>but i do not want to digress. i
seems we do agree on several if not many

 issues. please run with the thought that i will admit defeat when
appropriate.

 i think we are going to resolve this [my insistence of a dualistic
approach]

soon enough...one way or the other.

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


You might decide to redefine the bcc to mean the

same thing as the fcc, but few will follow you in

that direction.  It's a useful distinction to keep,

as chemistry finds them both in nature.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>perhaps it is his bcc unit cell
that is wrong...perhaps it is my

interpretation of what his visual depiction means.

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


You say "his bcc unit cell" but Bucky doesn't use

that nomenclature.  You can build a bcc pattern using

the vertices of 4 interpenetrating IVMs.  That's

something I show at my 'Intro to Synergetic

Crystallography' page with links to work by Russell

Chu and Scott Childs.


http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/xtals101.html


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>is he saying that each sphere
only touches 8 other spheres here in bcc ?

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


Who?  Fuller doesn't talk about the bcc.


>>>>

<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>i believe in addition to these
eight touch points....there are four more

around the equator. since his bcc depiction has equal spacing at the

equator and the two poles, then he would require an additional 6 touch

points...bringing him to 14...which is obviously wrong. so, it must be

only 8 touch points for his bcc unit cell depiction to possibly be
valid.

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>i also do not see the logic of
selectively removing 1/3 of the spheres

 at root 1 distance from a central sphere...(origin)

</smaller></fontfamily>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>has he actually generated this
bcc unit cell in an array and gotten a

repetitive bcc format ? are the four missing spheres not included due

to some mathematical or physical logic i wonder ?

</smaller></fontfamily>

</excerpt><<<<<<<<


The "unit cell" in question is the same as your

"Cartesian unit cell" at left.  It's the XYZ

skeleton with a vertex at the center of each

XYZ cube.


The bcc is just something chemists and crystallographers

have defined.  There's no question of it being a

"mistake" -- it's a definition.


Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:05:03 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: bcc/ccp  issue on hold
In-Reply-To:  <LAW2-OE16XsOwYEIEkt00002923@hotmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"

<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

No, not the same. What is true is if you have a layer

of spheres packed in squares, and stack another layer

of squares atop that, and so on, that you get the ccp

(or fcc). In other words:



not according to the chemistry site. the ccp is

NOT square packed there.


* * * * * * * * *

* * * * * * * * *

* * * * * * *

* * * *


</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


If you slice through the ccp at a different angle,

you see the squares.  Think of a high frequency

cuboctahedral packing, such as shown at

http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/urner.html

-- you see the square packings on the 6 square

faces, the hexagonal packing on the triangular

faces -- but it's the same packing.


>>>>

<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

stacked one atop the other gives you the fcc. This is

what you see happening with the 6 half-octahedral sections

of the VE, as you pack outward, adding successive layers

of 12, 42, 92, 162... spheres (cuboctahedral conformation).


I think this layering arrangement is what you're getting

at with your "s.c.p. unit cell", however misnamed.



trying to...a bit unsuccessfully it seems.


</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


In terms of nomenclature, you're off, but otherwise

you're clear (on that point).


>>>>

<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

However, the above layering of square packings is _not_

the same as the bcc. The bcc is like your "Cartesian unit

cell" at the left, with a point at the center, and a point

at each of the 8 corners of the cube.



a point representing the centers of 9 spheres then ?



 It's a real cube,

not an elongated parallelepiped with proportions root(2):1,

as on the right.



this is what i question...i do not think a real cube is appropriate


</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


But that's just what the bcc _is_.  People wanted

a name for it.


>>>>

<excerpt><fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller>

but enough of this concentration for now.



>>>>


<excerpt> 2000 was very rough going.



 time for a little change then....may some good fortune and piece of

 mind be a more constant companion for you this year !





 ps....this looks like it is going to take a few more emails...so i will
take

  a break for the night....and talk some more perhaps tomorrow...the
first

 day of the new millennium.




</excerpt></smaller></fontfamily></excerpt><<<<<<<<


G'night Steve.  See ya in 2001.


Kirby