From MAILER-DAEMON Tue Jun 15 11:51:05 2004 Return-Path: Received: from acsu.buffalo.edu (deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu [128.205.7.57]) by linux00.LinuxForce.net (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.6) with SMTP id i5FFoTa6011997 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:50:29 -0400 Message-Id: <200406151550.i5FFoTa6011997@linux00.LinuxForce.net> Received: (qmail 13295 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2004 15:50:28 -0000 Received: from listserv.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 15 Jun 2004 15:50:28 -0000 Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:50:28 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at University at Buffalo (1.8e)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG0303" To: Chris Fearnley X-Virus-Scanned: clamd / ClamAV version 0.71, clamav-milter version 0.71 X-Virus-Status: Clean Status: RO Content-Length: 336197 Lines: 8751 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 00:00:04 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Patrick Salsbury Subject: *MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is the monthly "How To" file about the GEODESIC list. It has info on content and purpose of the list, as well as subscription info, posting instructions, etc. It should prove useful to new subscribers, as well as those who are unfamiliar with LISTSERV operations. This message is being posted on Sat Mar 1 00:00:01 PST 2003. If you are tired of receiving this message once per month, and are reading bit.listserv.geodesic through USENET news, then you can enter this subject into your KILL/SCORE file. If you're reading through email, you can set up a filter to delete the message. Both of these tricks are WELL worth learning how to do, if you don't know already. And isn't it about time to learn something new? Isn't it always? :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GEODESIC is a forum for the discussion of the ideas and creations relating to the work of R. Buckminster (Bucky) Fuller. Topics range from geodesic math to world hunger; floating cities to autonoumous housing, and little bit of everything in between. Other lists that focuses more specifically on some of these topics can be found on the Reality Sculptors Website: http://reality.sculptors.com/lists.html On topic discussion and questions are welcome. SPAM and unsolicited promotions are not. (Simple, eh?) ----------------------- To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and in the body of your letter put the line: SUB GEODESIC A web page to signon is available here: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/user/sub.html When you want to post, send mail to GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU ******NOT***** to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU! LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is for subscriptions, administrivia, archive requests, etc. GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU is the actual discussion group. Anything sent to GEODESIC will go to all members. 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Send a note to listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with this message in the BODY of the note: INDEX GEODESIC You can get help on other Listserv commands by putting the line HELP into the body of the note. (Can be in the same message.) Web-searchable archives for the lists are available at: http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe and unsubscribe.) Pat _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________ Patrick G. Salsbury http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/ ----------------------- Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 11:54:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: [geodesic dome homes] question Comments: To: mmirjalili2000@yahoo.com Comments: cc: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr Mirjalili, For a list of references about geodesic dome greenhouses see http://buckminster.info/Index/Domes-G.htm Also, you might be interested in the following; http://buckminster.info/Ideas/08-IcosDomeFactoryFood.htm Could you send me some information about your company so that I can eventually add you to my list of dome manufacturers? Do you have a website? Thank you, -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 8:22 AM Subject: [geodesic dome homes] question > Dear Sir/Madam, > > We run a company in Iran that builds greenhouses all around Iran and > we are one of the famous companies in this field. Our customers are > all around Iran. The name is Yazd Ziba Omran. > I am interested to know about construction and analysis of these > greenhouses in more details and probably more cooperation in near > future. > Would you please send us information about geodesic greenhouses in > detail. > > Best regards, > > M. Mirjalili > R&D Yazd Ziba Omran ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 23:00:22 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Mathamatics of Musical Harmony Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed the "tritone" is a great example of the construction of tonal modules (sik), as shown in _The Myth of Invariance_. it's the root of equal-temperament ... the every-more-close approach to the gepmetrical mean between a note and its first harmonic, the octave (as adduced from very large numbers taht are embodied in the "mythical eras" of the Hindoo Mind -- #777 is the Number of the Missionary Position e.g. in _Kama Sutra_ .-) usenet@microtonal.co.uk (Graham Breed) wrote in message news:<1d22f12e.0302280521.8880ca7@posting.google.com>... >This leads to evolutionary theories of consonance, that suggest we >should move on to admitting 7-limit consonances, and avoiding plain >5-limit triads. Which is fine up to a point, but the more remote >consonances (like 9:7 or 11:8) can sound less pleasant than the >background level where no ratio is appropriate -- however you define >*that*. And a single measure can't distinguish between fusion and >sensory consonance. >The biggest problem with traditional harmony is the treatment of >fourths as dissonant. This began around when thirds became consonant. > Theorists disagree as to whether fourths really have a discordant >sound, but where they occur in the bass or two part writing they >behave exactly like dissonances. No simple numerical consonance >measure will rank 4:3 below 5:3, 5:4 or 6:5. Most will place 8:5 (a >minor sixth) higher than 7:5, a good approximation to the tritone -- >traditionally the most dissonant interval. >A diminished chord contains two minor thirds and one diminished >fifths. The consonances of the thirds will make the chord as a whole >more consonant than the bare diminished fifth. > >Any chord containing a triad will be consonance-weighted by the >consonance of that triad. 7ths and 9ths in particular will tend to >make consonant intervals with some of the existing notes. So the >overall effect is of a broadly consonant chord with a hint of >dissonance. --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... "HEY, GEORGE; LET'S YOU & SADDAM FIGHT" -Dame Maggie ('92) http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 23:06:09 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Hyperspace Crystals and Kleinert's Theory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Creon, I have not seen the book, *Crystallographic Groups of Four-Dimensional Space* by Brown, Bulow, Neubuser, Wondratschek and Zassenhaus. I can tell you that these 4-d crystallographic groups are reflection groups (Coxeter groups, Weyl groups) of type, A4, B4, D4, and F4. I will check out that book in the math library at U of O. I do have the Schwarzenberger book, *N-dimensional Crystallography*. It is a rapid survey of the subject -- only 139 pages to cover a vast field. The basis of N-dim. crystallography is the Coxeter graph set of types A, B, D, E, F and G (and their disjoint unions). These are the Coxeter graphs for finite reflection groups that obey an extra condition -- the crystallographic condition--i.e. they generate crystal lattices. This is described in the book *Finite Reflection Groups* (2nd Ed.) by L.C. Grove and C.T. Benson (Springer-Verlag, 1985). It is also described at a more "popular level" by John Baez at http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week64.html Baez's "This Week's Finds in Mathematics" for Weeks 62, 63, and 65 are also useful. Baez does occasionally make a mistake. For example, in Week 65, he describes the A-D-E graphs, "where all the roots are 90 or 60 degrees from each other." Actually the basis roots (one for each dot) are described by the graphs. The full set of roots is generated by the reflection group of the graph -- i.e. by the mirrors (one for each dot). [For example, the 4 basic roots of A4, are a subset of the 20 roots in the A4 reflection space.] But a bigger mistake is the phrase "60 degrees"--for any two basic roots are set at 120 degrees if the corresponding dots are connected by a single line, and otherwise there is a 90 degree relation between two basic roots. I think that Baez confused the angle between the basic mirrors (one for each dot) with the angle between the roots attached to these mirrors. While the mirrors are set at 60 degrees to each other (whenever a single line connects the two corresponding dots in the Coxeter graph) the angle between the roots attached to these mirrors is 120 degrees. But mainly, Baez does a pretty good job of presenting some of the most interesting applications of the Coxeter graphs. BTW you can link to these Baez pages from John McKay's paper "A Rapid Introduction to ADE Theory" : http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/ADE.html At the end McKay mentions my appendix paper in Jeffrey Mishlove's book *Roots of Consciousness* -- however he does not mention either Jeffrey's or my name. There is a very interesting paper, "Crystallography and Cremona Transformations" by Patric Du Val, pp. 191-202 in the *The Geometric Vein: The Coxeter Festschrift*, edited by Chandler Davis, Branko Grunbaum, and F.A. Sherk (Springer-Verlag, 1981. This Coxeter Festschrift also has the paper on the McKay correspondence, "Representations and Coxeter Graphs," by David Ford and John McKay. --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... "HEY, GEORGE; LET'S YOU & SADDAM FIGHT" -Dame Maggie ('92) http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 20:23:39 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: whatever hapend to GeoDomes woodworks? Comments: To: called2preach2002 Comments: cc: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Called 2 Preach, Geodomes Woodworks is out of business as far as we can tell; see http://buckminster.info/Index/DomeManuf-G.htm -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "called2preach2002" Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 11:38 PM Subject: whatever hapend to GeoDomes woodworks? > I have a book from Geodomes Woodworks Inc. of Riverside CA. > I have not been able to contact them. Does anyone know of their demise? > I am interested in obtaining plans for their "Chateau Lumiere" > > any information appreciated > thank you. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 20:50:28 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Dome Book Comments: To: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A fellow named Ted Horton is writing a book about his dome-building = experience; see http://home.earthlink.net/~domedad42/tedsbooks/=20 (scroll down to the section on the bottom called "In the Works") Ref: http://www.together.net/~thorton/dome/ -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 09:37:15 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: inflatable dome Comments: To: Robert Runyon Comments: cc: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr Runyon, Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge it has never been manufactured. I've seen inflatable tents, but none based on a geodesic dome with a built-in air mattress floor & double-walled construction insulated by air. If you would like to manufacture it, please do so. I put the design is in the public domain years ago. Ref: http://buckminster.info/Ideas/07-IcosDomeTentInflate.htm -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Runyon" To: Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 3:34 AM Subject: inflatable dome > Joe Moore > I would like to purchase an inflatable icosahron dome such as the one > you described in your web posting. > > Do you know of any vendor making such a dome? > > Robert S. Runyon, Library Dean Emeritus > University of Nebraska at Omaha > ----------------------- > Home: 2130 South 80th Ave. Omaha, NE 68124-2218 > e-mail: rrunyon@mail.unomaha.edu Tel:402-393-3320 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 13:03:31 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Are you a Design Scientist? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, my name's David, and I've been lurking on this list for a couple of weeks. By way of general introduction, I have successfully completed 38 trips around the sun, I live on a houseboat in Sausalito, CA, and I am working diligently towards a career change for the better. I dropped out of high school at age 18, but returned to formal education for undergraduate degrees in Communication Arts and Technology, and International Studies, and an MBA. I could provide more personal detail if asked, but I'm thinking that should give you enough context to get where I'm coming from. I have been generally familiar with Bucky since I saw him talk in my local area, when I was a youth. Many relevant ideas have stayed with me, and I am often surprised at how few people are aware of what seem to me to be obvious truths, that many of which Bucky identified or popularized. Most recently, I have revisited this work again more seriously, and cutting right to the chase, I'm wondering if anyone on this list considers themselves a "professional" design scientist. Recognizing that anything comprehensive and anticipatory will necessarily be subject to a variety of interpretations, I am soliciting your interpretations, and offering the following questions as a starting point for discussion. These Q's come from a semi-formal career-selection program with which I am involved, but I welcome any sincere contributions, regardless of formality level. Some of these questions won't apply, and you may think of others I should be asking. I am adding the first question specifically for design scientists: "what is the traditional or common name for your field?" (like if you're a high school math teacher as your expression of design scientist, for example, or dome builder/carpenter, or a manager at a non-profit, or...) Please feel free to pick and choose any questions you want to answer, and maybe copy/paste that/those question/s into your post. If this violates the list etiquette in some way, I trust you all to gently correct me. Thanks in advance for any sincere responses, and when I appropriate, I promise to respond with more discussion on the issues. Therefore, if you choose to respond to my inquiry: As a professional design scientist... What is the common name for your work? What prompted you to choose this type of occupation? How do you feel about this occupation now? Can you describe a typical day at work? What kind of hours do you work? What aspect of the work do you enjoy the most? What are some of the major challenges that you have had to overcome? What are the aspects of the work that you enjoy the least? What are some of the typical characteristics of the clients you serve? What do you believe it the need for this type of occupation in the future? Can you give me an idea of average salaries and benefits initially, after two years, and after five years? What skills are essential for success in this occupation? Which local and national educational institutions provide the best training? What are the programs? How long does it take to become qualified? Can the studies be completed on a part-time basis? What do you think are the costs? If self-employ route: What kind of capital do you think I will need to set myself up? Is there anything else I should be aware of? David Lane ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 16:54:09 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Subject: dome greenhouses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Dear Mr Mirjalili, Regarding the email from Mr Mirjalili from Iran, inquiring about geodesic greenhouses, if you have not seen or heard about The Eden Project, you might be interested: http://www.edenproject.com I think this project may be the largest dome greenhouse yet built. Its my impression that the economic context of this project is both the reason for its existence, and at the same time, a limiting aspect. The greenhouse is a very successful tourist attraction. As such, many features of its design are based on the requirements of the visitors, and it is difficult to distinguish the features which are needed for the tourists, from the features which are needed for the plants, and so the project may not shed a lot of light on the economic feasibility of this sort of structure for purely agricultural purposes. I would be interested in knowing more about your greenhouse projects in Iran. Best wishes, Bob Sanderson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 02:26:35 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: .9 REPEATING IS IT ONE? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed you'll never get out of that klein-paper bag, at this rate!... seriously, maybe it should go into a "frequently unanswered questions" pile, but it seems to be a technicality of Stevin's scheme of "the decimals" (generally, we can apply the term to decimations in any base .-) this may have given lots of folks (Pascal, Fermat, Leibniz etc.) an inkling to make a calculator. and, since the 'turnover' of an infinite string of nines requires the addition of one to the 'infinitieth' place, it may also have encouraged the idea of calculus for Leibniz (or, similarly, the subtraction of one from zero gives an infinite string of 9s to hte *left* of the decimal point, as in the p-adics). norrisdt@rintintin.colorado.edu (Doug Norris) wrote in message news:... >Clearly. You've obviously mastered all levels of mathematics. Kudos. --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S YOU & ISLAMIACS FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 08:11:50 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Are you a Design Scientist? In-Reply-To: <165731E4-5017-11D7-929D-00039366933E@zenciti.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- David Lane wrote: > What are some of the typical characteristics of the > clients you serve? Everyone on the planet, at once. > What do you believe is the need for this type of > occupation in the > future? Planetary survival. > Can you give me an idea of average salaries and benefits > initially, > after two years, and after five years? Making money and making sense are mutually exclusive, someone said. > What skills are essential for success in this occupation? Read and understand as much of Synergetics 1 & 2 as possible. > Which local and national educational institutions provide > the best > training? What are the programs? None. > How long does it take > to become > qualified? You were born qualified. See the world as you did as a child. > Is there anything else I should be aware of? Beware quincy. But don't necessarily dismiss him. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 21:51:19 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: Are you a Design Scientist? In-Reply-To: <20030307161150.22341.qmail@web40710.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Well put Dick. You're answers also highlight how odd it is what we're doing. I'd add one thing to the- What skills are essential for success in this occupation? question... Saturate yourself in the sciences. Biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, sociology, anthropology, etc. Through learning across these areas you will begin to see patterns that those who are specialists won't see due to the narrow world they work within. Dick's right though about synergetic geometry. It's what made Bucky effective, as well as any of us. Why? Because it's what nature uses to design atoms, lobsters, and galaxies. Good Luck! Leifur Thor ____________________________ Design Scientist www.home.earthlink.net/~lthor/ - > From: Dick Fischbeck > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 08:11:50 -0800 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Are you a Design Scientist? > > --- David Lane wrote: > > >> What are some of the typical characteristics of the >> clients you serve? > > Everyone on the planet, at once. > >> What do you believe is the need for this type of >> occupation in the >> future? > > Planetary survival. > >> Can you give me an idea of average salaries and benefits >> initially, >> after two years, and after five years? > > Making money and making sense are mutually exclusive, > someone said. > >> What skills are essential for success in this occupation? > > Read and understand as much of Synergetics 1 & 2 as > possible. > >> Which local and national educational institutions provide >> the best >> training? What are the programs? > > None. > >> How long does it take >> to become >> qualified? > > You were born qualified. See the world as you did as a > child. > >> Is there anything else I should be aware of? > > Beware quincy. But don't necessarily dismiss him. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more > http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 11:31:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: A Round Request Comments: To: Round12345@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, To search the Geodesic list archives go to: http://listserv.buffalo.edu/archives/geodesic.html To search my website go to the bottom of my home page (below) I've never heard of what you are looking for. -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 2:55 AM Subject: A Round Request > Good evening, Joe: > > I have a quick request, as I don't know how to search the archives ... > > I'm watching now a documentary on recent massive fires and forest fire > deaths, and I'm trying to find my post to a Fuller list-serve regarding a > "tetrahedral fire-retardant-protection-system", or some such thing I called > it. > > Could you assist? > > Thanks. > > Michael Round > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 19:25:50 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Round Subject: Re: A Round Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The site below has a reference to "Buckminster Fuller's Tetrascape" ... I can find no other reference to this on the internet. Anybody? http://www.clydesdale.com/deming.htm Thanks. Michael Round ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 00:53:45 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Proof that ".9 repeating" equals 1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ijustfound a book atthe library which goes into Stevin's treatise. it seems that the "point" came a ways later from the "decimals," as he put a circlewith the numberof the decimal-place nexttoeach digit, with a zero for the ones-place!... there were a few methodsof fractional notation around, in sexagesimal etc.form. as for any decimal representation, how could it ever diverge?... I wonder if this occured to Stevin, or if he showed that it couldn't occur. (as forthe p-adics, ...9999. also converges to zero,but you have add a onetothe infinitieth place (one unit of 10^infinity .-) thus quoth: but it seems to be a technicality of Stevin's scheme of "the decimals" (generally, we can apply the term to decimations in any base .-) this may have given lots of folks (Pascal, Fermat, Leibniz etc.) an inkling to make a calculator. and, since the 'turnover' of an infinite string of nines requires the addition of one to the 'infinitieth' place, it may also have encouraged the idea of calculus for Leibniz (or, similarly, the subtraction of one from zero gives an infinite string of 9s to hte *left* of the decimal point, The World Wide Wade wrote in message news:... >analysis of the problem. My point to diego was: If someone actually >understands the rigorous definition of .9999.... as an infinite series, >then it's highly likely they have seen the proof that .99999... = 1. Why? --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S YOU & ISLAMIACS FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Mar 2003 21:41:07 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: A Round Request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, I think he meant _Tetrascroll_; see http://buckminster.info/Biblio/By-BkTOC-Tetrascroll.htm -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Round" Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2003 5:25 PM Subject: Re: A Round Request > The site below has a reference to "Buckminster Fuller's Tetrascape" ... I can > find no other reference to this on the internet. Anybody? > > http://www.clydesdale.com/deming.htm > > Thanks. > > Michael Round > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 10:55:13 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: blair wolfram Subject: Re: Are you a Design Scientist? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I nominate Dick for the " The Best Answer Award for 2003." Blair Dick Fischbeck wrote: >--- David Lane wrote: > > > > >>What are some of the typical characteristics of the >>clients you serve? >> >> > >Everyone on the planet, at once. > > > >>What do you believe is the need for this type of >>occupation in the >>future? >> >> > >Planetary survival. > > > >>Can you give me an idea of average salaries and benefits >>initially, >>after two years, and after five years? >> >> > >Making money and making sense are mutually exclusive, >someone said. > > > >>What skills are essential for success in this occupation? >> >> > >Read and understand as much of Synergetics 1 & 2 as >possible. > > > >>Which local and national educational institutions provide >>the best >>training? What are the programs? >> >> > >None. > > > >> How long does it take >>to become >>qualified? >> >> > >You were born qualified. See the world as you did as a >child. > > > >>Is there anything else I should be aware of? >> >> > >Beware quincy. But don't necessarily dismiss him. > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more >http://taxes.yahoo.com/ > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 13:28:54 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Re: Are you a Design Scientist? In-Reply-To: <3E6B71F1.5010707@domeincorporated.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But you didn't see the answers that were sent to me privately. Some of those were comparably good, but I guess I can't nominate them because they weren't released to the general public... Oh well... :-) Thanks to everyone taking a shot at it, and if anything's crossed your mind, please feel free to share it (anyone here who can own up to any work with a traditional/common name?) David On Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 08:55 AM, blair wolfram wrote: > I nominate Dick for the " The Best Answer Award for 2003." > Blair > Dick Fischbeck wrote: >> --- David Lane wrote: >>> What are some of the typical characteristics of the >>> clients you serve? >> Everyone on the planet, at once. >>> What do you believe is the need for this type of >>> occupation in the >>> future? >> Planetary survival. >>> Can you give me an idea of average salaries and benefits >>> initially, >>> after two years, and after five years? >> Making money and making sense are mutually exclusive, >> someone said. >>> What skills are essential for success in this occupation? >> Read and understand as much of Synergetics 1 & 2 as >> possible. >>> Which local and national educational institutions provide >>> the best >>> training? What are the programs? >> None. >>> How long does it take >>> to become >>> qualified? >> You were born qualified. See the world as you did as a >> child. >>> Is there anything else I should be aware of? >> Beware quincy. But don't necessarily dismiss him. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 08:48:35 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Subject: Re: Are you a Design Scientist? In-Reply-To: <21526880-5276-11D7-8168-00039366933E@zenciti.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" To David Lane: Would you consider putting all the answers to your questionnaire on this listserve, without naming the authors? >But you didn't see the answers that were sent to me privately. > >Some of those were comparably good, but I guess I can't nominate them >because they weren't released to the general public... Oh well... > >:-) > >Thanks to everyone taking a shot at it, and if anything's crossed your >mind, please feel free to share it (anyone here who can own up to any >work with a traditional/common name?) > >David > >On Sunday, March 9, 2003, at 08:55 AM, blair wolfram wrote: >>I nominate Dick for the " The Best Answer Award for 2003." >>Blair >>Dick Fischbeck wrote: >>>--- David Lane wrote: >>>>What are some of the typical characteristics of the >>>>clients you serve? >>>Everyone on the planet, at once. >>>>What do you believe is the need for this type of >>>>occupation in the >>>>future? >>>Planetary survival. >>>>Can you give me an idea of average salaries and benefits >>>>initially, >>>>after two years, and after five years? >>>Making money and making sense are mutually exclusive, >>>someone said. >>>>What skills are essential for success in this occupation? >>>Read and understand as much of Synergetics 1 & 2 as >>>possible. >>>>Which local and national educational institutions provide >>>>the best >>>>training? What are the programs? >>>None. >>>>How long does it take >>>>to become >>>>qualified? >>>You were born qualified. See the world as you did as a >>>child. >>>>Is there anything else I should be aware of? >>>Beware quincy. But don't necessarily dismiss him. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 07:48:18 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Re: Are you a Design Scientist? In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, March 10, 2003, at 05:48 AM, Bob wrote: > To David Lane: > > Would you consider putting all the answers to your questionnaire on > this listserve, without naming the authors? > Sure, I will compile and share them with the list serve, no problem. I would like to have more, still, but that's normal I guess. I'll wait another few days or week or so, in order to give those who still can respond, more of an opportunity to do so. Thanks again! David Lane ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 10:36:03 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Clinton's 1971 paper defining the Classes concept Comments: To: BuckminsterFuller@groups.msn.com Comments: cc: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr Togores, Both Parts 1 & 2 are available from the National Technical Information = Service; see http://www.ntis.gov/ Request info for CR-1734 & CR-1735. (Searches = only go back to 1990.) The Table of Contents for Part 1 are available here: http://buckminster.info/Biblio/About-BkTOC-AdvancedStructuralGeometryStud= ies-Pt1.htm -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- Message from MSN Buckminster Fuller group: "Hi all: I am looking for Clinton's 1971 paper where he defines the Class concept = for Geodesic Dome topology. I have not been able to find a copy of the = original document which I would like to read. I am located in Spain, and = have not been able to find it in the libraries I can reach. I would = really appreciate if someone could share with me a scanned version of = this document. It is the report of Clinton's investigations for NASA. Thanks in advance, R. Togores" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:22:39 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Your Books Comments: To: "Thorstrinn, Einar" Comments: cc: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Einar, The Table of Contents for four of your books are now online; see http://buckminster.info/Biblio/About-BkTOC-ArticlesByThorsteinnInDomeMag-= vol1.htm http://buckminster.info/Biblio/About-BkTOC-ArticlesByThorsteinnInDomeMag-= vol2.htm http://buckminster.info/Biblio/About-BkTOC-ArticlesByThorsteinnInDomeMag-= vol3.htm http://buckminster.info/Biblio/About-BkTOC-ToTheHabitantsOfSpaceInGeneral= .htm Thanks! -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:45:53 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Global Grid Update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Global electricity distribution grid status: Italy "Italy's extensive electricity network is linked to its neighbors. = Electricity imports come mostly from France, Switzerland and a small = percentage from Slovenia. In the summer of 2002, Italy and Greece = completed the construction of a new 163-kilometer (102-mile), = 400-kilovolt underwater cable to link Italy and Greece. The cable will = allow Greece to transfer electricity to the EU, as well as serve as a = back-up source for Italy." Refs: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/italy.html http://www.buckminster.info/Pics/Ergy-Grid-WorldStatus-Superhirez2.JPG -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:58:44 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Geodesic Dome Software Comments: To: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Andy.Houston:=20 "GeodesicDome.py is a Python script for Blender which creates geodesic = domes and spheres of the type popularised by R. Buckminster Fuller" http://homepage.ntlworld.com/andy.houston/ -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 23:33:46 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: letter re Jacobin protests Comments: To: corsair@smc.edu Comments: cc: QncyMI@netscape.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dear Editor, re “Protests” and “Cuts” and Harry-the _mad-Potter’s War: Glad to see your staff-writer and Mr. Leone decrying the horde of anti-war protesters; but, they aren’t really “anti-capitalists,” but a nascent Jacobin mob. I was there (and it seems that I was purposefully excluded from speaking, two). Please, don’t believe the “mainstream” Reuters/AdamSmith definition of a word, whose coined (by Gauss, 19th CCE) meaning is “the productive power of labor *per capita*,” to be the same thing as British Liberal Free Trade. That, my friends, is imperialism, as promoted by the Penguin, Ltd. Mass-marketing of _The Wealth of Nations_ in 1776 (an enormous book for a simple idea: a Penguin subsidiary – think of the “Batman” character – used US trees to attack our republican (small-R) experiment). Re the draconian cuts being enforced at all levels of society, it can be seen as a form of financial warfare. The putative war has, thus, achieved its primary goal, to raise the price of energy – a process which was begun with the “California energy crisis” and our subsidy of the “nation-building” of East Timor” with the building of LNG plants for the California narket (assuming that natutal gas prices remain at least double the pre-crisis level; note, both halves of Timor are Catholic, the East being Portuguese and the West being Dutch!) There’s another way in which the war is “about” oil. The Administration has said, during the 2000 campaign, that they support the “emissions trading scheme,” a free-trade algorithm at the heart of the Protocol of the Elders of Kyoto (sik) on CO2. That is, they got 178 *other* countries (Great Britain, Canada, Venezuela etc.) to form a super-cartel against us. Of course, the oil companies support this arbitrary means to reaise the price of “their” product, which Gore openly supported. But this isn’t the way for a nation to go. Even *The Economist* -- the body that works the “Invisible Hand” of free-trade doctrine, admits that TARIFFS are the way to support both the local production of energy, and fair prices for the producers of oil (but *TE* only refered to this in a book, because they actually hate tariffs & republicans), while providing a key means to fund the government (as it did in the past!) Unfortunatly, the Administration has NO policy for energy, other than the “free” market and its supra-national cartels, as can be seen in their last-year’s “mothballing” of the Hanford Breeder Reactor – where “depleted uranium” (99.3% of the ore) was to be made into fissionable fuel. So, is it all going to be given to the Iraqis as armor-piercing shells, now? (First used in first Gulf War.) Re Arkin’s “auntonomous entity..in Canada,” that’s what Canada is assuredly not: it is one of the 16 Dominions of the Queen of England, and Candians are Subjects thereto – as is Tony Blair. Blair’s main job is to answer interrogatories on Mondays at the House of commons – does he even have a vote? – and he gets those answers every week, in a private meeting at his house! --Sincerely, Brian “Quincy” Hutchings PS: how many Muslims from Indonesia and Pakistan are there in the USA? --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S YOU & ISLAMIACS FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/plates.html http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 19:49:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: BFVI Website Comments: To: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following is a status report on my website, the Buckminster Fuller = Virtual Institute: Updated on March 10, 2003 793 pages 1170 pictures About 60 megs About 5,000 hits/day average About 500 unique visitors/day average About 10 searches/day average -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 08:56:53 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: BFVI Website In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hey Joe, can we get designsciencecommunity.org listed on your site? > From: Joe S Moore > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 19:49:30 -0700 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: BFVI Website > > The following is a status report on my website, the Buckminster Fuller Virtual > Institute: > > Updated on March 10, 2003 > 793 pages > 1170 pictures > About 60 megs > About 5,000 hits/day average > About 500 unique visitors/day average > About 10 searches/day average > > -------------------------------------------- > Joe S Moore > joe_s_moore@hotmail.com > http://buckminster.info > ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:08:28 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: BFVI Website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Leifur, Will do. Think I'll put it under "Newsletters" (?); see http://buckminster.info/Index/New-Nind.htm Ref: http://reality.sculptors.com/cgi-bin/dsc -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leifur Thor" Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 9:56 AM Subject: Re: BFVI Website > hey Joe, can we get designsciencecommunity.org listed on your site? > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:40:35 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: a question about numbers In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Math revolves around the number 10. We don't have say a 9 dollar bill... and the foot which is 12 and historically funny, is over 10 and has trouble as a base number therefore. And10 in not a number easily divided by 3, or divided into a triangle. 10 is great for box, or square making though. What if we used math with say 3, 6 or 9 (numbers below a two digit number that are dividable by three) as the major role player rather than 10. How would this change how we think about math and engineering? To summarize, I guess it appears as if our square based society could inherently be due to the fact that 10 which could historically be based on 10 human fingers or ten human toes might be a driving force to create feats of engineering based on 10, or a number that doesn't work well with a triangle, and that in fact if we use a base number of 3,6,or 9, we'd get a whole new way of looking at math in general, and a math that works much easier with triangles i.e. real structures. I'm no mathematician, and was made aware of this through my 4 year old son and his inability to understand 10,100,1000 and their relationship with each other. It got me thinking about this base math question. Any thoughts anyone? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 16:42:04 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: BFVI Website In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hey Joe you just gave me an idea... > From: Joe S Moore > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 10:08:28 -0700 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: BFVI Website > > Leifur, > > Will do. Think I'll put it under "Newsletters" (?); see > http://buckminster.info/Index/New-Nind.htm > > Ref: http://reality.sculptors.com/cgi-bin/dsc > > -------------------------------------------- > Joe S Moore > joe_s_moore@hotmail.com > http://buckminster.info > ------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Leifur Thor" > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2003 9:56 AM > Subject: Re: BFVI Website > > >> hey Joe, can we get designsciencecommunity.org listed on your site? >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 10:07:25 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: another question about numbers In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Think about computing, which use 1 and 0. According to experiential/energetic/operational math there's no such thing in the universe as 0 or 1. There has yet to be proven a singularity, even the atom made of particles, who's shadows have only been seen. The actual particles themselves have not been viewed directly yet and may in fact be made of systems of particles. And 0 implies complete absence, which can easily be proven in math with the simplest equation, yet in reality/Universe even in space energy still exists, and space has proven to be in constant flux with energy patterns. My fingers typing these keys which appear to act and behave as a solid only become useful given the coordination directed though my brain, nervous system, and the various sub systems (cells, veins, oxygen, bones, atoms). It's as if we must fight the myth of matter, not believing our senses. I think I get it now what Bucky was talking about when he would talk about life before he got glasses and everything was fuzzy edged, which in fact exactly how matter is. But knowing something and acting moment to moment knowing something are two different things. How funny, I just said two different things which we all do with thought. Things either are or are not. Our mechanism for judgement. This I like or don't, and catalog accordingly. If I sound like I've got nuts, perhaps I have LOL! Or perhaps I've become enlightened by being around my not de-geniused yet 4 year old son quite a bit lately. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 19:05:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: a question about numbers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Babylonians' number system revolved around 60 which was convenient because it was divisible by 2, 3 and 5. This is the basis for our time system anyway. Apparently our numerical system used to take 12 more seriously since if you look at English it doesn't make a shift until 13. One, Two, ..., Twelve are all unique sort of words and then after that they are more manufactured ... like Thir-teen, Four-teen, etc. Lancelot Hogben has an interesting discussion of the Babylonians in his book "Math for the Millions". Bob Leifur Thor wrote: >Math revolves around the number 10. We don't have say a 9 dollar bill... and >the foot which is 12 and historically funny, is over 10 and has trouble as a >base number therefore. > >And10 in not a number easily divided by 3, or divided into a triangle. > >10 is great for box, or square making though. > >What if we used math with say 3, 6 or 9 (numbers below a two digit number >that are dividable by three) as the major role player rather than 10. How >would this change how we think about math and engineering? > >To summarize, I guess it appears as if our square based society could >inherently be due to the fact that 10 which could historically be based on >10 human fingers or ten human toes might be a driving force to create feats >of engineering based on 10, or a number that doesn't work well with a >triangle, and that in fact if we use a base number of 3,6,or 9, we'd get a >whole new way of looking at math in general, and a math that works much >easier with triangles i.e. real structures. > >I'm no mathematician, and was made aware of this through my 4 year old son >and his inability to understand 10,100,1000 and their relationship with each >other. It got me thinking about this base math question. > >Any thoughts anyone? > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 17:40:30 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: a question about numbers In-Reply-To: <3E751164.2070605@channel1.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Could the importance of the twelve thing been around the foot of the king who instituted the ft. measurement i.e. foot as in the king's foot? > From: Bob Burkhardt > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 19:05:56 -0500 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: a question about numbers > > The Babylonians' number system revolved around 60 which was convenient > because > it was divisible by 2, 3 and 5. This is the basis for our time system > anyway. Apparently > our numerical system used to take 12 more seriously since if you look at > English it doesn't > make a shift until 13. One, Two, ..., Twelve are all unique sort of > words and then after > that they are more manufactured ... like Thir-teen, Four-teen, etc. > Lancelot Hogben has > an interesting discussion of the Babylonians in his book "Math for the > Millions". > > Bob > > Leifur Thor wrote: > >> Math revolves around the number 10. We don't have say a 9 dollar bill... and >> the foot which is 12 and historically funny, is over 10 and has trouble as a >> base number therefore. >> >> And10 in not a number easily divided by 3, or divided into a triangle. >> >> 10 is great for box, or square making though. >> >> What if we used math with say 3, 6 or 9 (numbers below a two digit number >> that are dividable by three) as the major role player rather than 10. How >> would this change how we think about math and engineering? >> >> To summarize, I guess it appears as if our square based society could >> inherently be due to the fact that 10 which could historically be based on >> 10 human fingers or ten human toes might be a driving force to create feats >> of engineering based on 10, or a number that doesn't work well with a >> triangle, and that in fact if we use a base number of 3,6,or 9, we'd get a >> whole new way of looking at math in general, and a math that works much >> easier with triangles i.e. real structures. >> >> I'm no mathematician, and was made aware of this through my 4 year old son >> and his inability to understand 10,100,1000 and their relationship with each >> other. It got me thinking about this base math question. >> >> Any thoughts anyone? >> >> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 11:33:02 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Paul Taylor Subject: Re: another question about numbers In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 16/3/03 18:07, Leifur Thor at lthor@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > According to experiential/energetic/operational math there's no such thing > in the universe as 0 or 1. The natural numbers can be generated out of the null set, i.e. nothing. This was shown by Frege and Russell, and the process is outlined in THE BOOK OF NOTHING, A Natural History Of "Zero", by John D Barrow http://www.nous.org.uk/Barrownoth.html Paul Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:47:40 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: another question about numbers In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I was speaking from experiential math, where for something to exist, it needs to be observable in Universe. Example, a straight line is great for thinking about something, but there is no known place or thing in the observable Universe where a straight line exists. The same is true for 0 and 1. Even in the vacuum of space energy is present, therefore there is not a single millimeter diameter sphere of any space in the known Universe where nothing i.e. 0 or complete lack of anything exists. It's a piece of cake to use, prove, and need a 1 or 0 when thinking about math or many other things. I'm just saying it's odd that these fundamental numbers that are so important in so many areas of our lives don't exist anywhere in nature/Universe. One could say- There's one tree on that hill over there. Not two, three etc, just one. But using the tree as an example, without the soil, air, sun, water from time to time, the tree could not exist, so what we think of the edge of the tree is in fact much larger than originally perceived. Not to mention the idea of say tree implies a singularity or object or thing. There has yet to be proven the existence of a singular thing in Universe. Everything we know of as what we call a thing, is in fact a conglomeration, or system, or pattern integrity of ever smaller systems. And I'd be the first to admit how unnerving that is once understood, do to our human need to quantify/judge/apply boundary around, what we discover in life so as make opinions from and catalog accordingly. Because without edge, this then becomes tremendously more difficult. Which leads to the point I was trying to make which is that humanity's very thinking process may be in need adjustment due to an outdated mode of premise. And also leads to an interesting thing to think about which is what would a modern up to date with current understanding of Universe through scientific exploration and discovery way of thinking (making judgments, observing, liking, disliking, etc) and comprehensive understanding that no edges exist, look like? How would we behave differently to each other, our world, and with ourselves? Just something to think about... > From: Paul Taylor > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 11:33:02 +0000 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: another question about numbers > > on 16/3/03 18:07, Leifur Thor at lthor@EARTHLINK.NET wrote: > >> According to experiential/energetic/operational math there's no such thing >> in the universe as 0 or 1. > > The natural numbers can be generated out of the null set, i.e. nothing. This > was shown by Frege and Russell, and the process is outlined in THE BOOK OF > NOTHING, A Natural History Of "Zero", by John D Barrow > > http://www.nous.org.uk/Barrownoth.html > > > Paul Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 11:23:12 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Re: another question about numbers In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 10:47 AM, Leifur Thor wrote: > Example, a straight line is great for thinking about something, but > there is > no known place or thing in the observable Universe where a straight > line > exists. What about a string with a weight on it, dropping in towards the center of the world? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 14:28:10 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: another question about numbers In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The string may look straight, but it is in fact not straight, nor is the string up close uniform i.e. straight. > From: David Lane > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 11:23:12 -0800 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: another question about numbers > > On Monday, March 17, 2003, at 10:47 AM, Leifur Thor wrote: > >> Example, a straight line is great for thinking about something, but >> there is >> no known place or thing in the observable Universe where a straight >> line >> exists. > > What about a string with a weight on it, dropping in towards the center > of the world? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:03:17 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: another question about numbers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed my prior reply to the thread on zero & one, didn't make it. firstly the treatise on the alleged problem is incorrect, and a factor of 3 (and/or no others) won't remedy it (and to say nothing of the fact that flat trigona existeth not, in the first place .-) any elementary book on the theory of numberse, like Ore's, will reveal this. as for zero, of course, it's a product of human cognition, not "zero-point energy" or any other postmodern flapdoodle from the Copenhagen school. but, in fact, you're wrong about particles not being able to be excluded, at least momentarily, from some small region. if you want to use the wavefunction, then, you may have a "point" -- ha-ha. --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S YOU & ISLAMIACS FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:04:23 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: UN is for Peace & Justice, Not War & Lies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed the UN was absolutely crucial in finagling the first Gulf War, and others beside of that. I'll get back to you, but do a search on http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac -- of course! AbelMalcolm@webtv.net wrote in message news:<17321-3E718E03-282@storefull-2172.public.lawson.webtv.net>... >The UN is SO VERY important in this increasingly dangerous nuclear age, >but Bush does not seem to understand that, he's instead trying to use >the UN to start a war. How could anyone be more moronic? > >Moreover, without the support of the United Nations, we will face the >daunting task of securing the peace in Iraq, as well as rebuild its >infrastructure, economy and institutions without the aid or support of >the International community. --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S YOU & ISLAMIACS FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:05:25 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: UN is for Peace & Justice, Not War & Lies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed oops: http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/newspeak.htm booxplode@yahoo.com (J. S.) wrote in message news:<34ab9191.0303161534.16391b86@posting.google.com>... >From Blair's 1984: > >- War is peace. --les ducs d'Enron! http://www.tarpley.net _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:07:01 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: so then, will you save the world today? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed as far as I know, here is his primary role (other than "spinning" the policy that magically appears): every Monday (in session), he goes to the House of Commons to answer interrogatories; does he even have a tie-breaking vote, there, like the VP in the Senate? tehn, before the Sunday news-outlets have wiped this weekly event from the minds of the Subjects, he stays (at some designated time) at his house for the meeting, where he gets that policy, "straight from teh horse's mouth," as it were. but, I think, this is a private meeting, and, I think, it is habitually hcaracterized in the Tory and Fabian press (The New Statesman e.g.) as a high-tea ritual with no actual content; eh? QncyMI@netscape.net (Brian Quincy Hutchings) wrote in message news:... > do you know what Tony Blair's main job is, >every week, whereat he's the Royal Mouthpiece? http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/privy.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/griffith.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/fallhous.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/hcarey.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/morgan4.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/lkffdr.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/lincoln3.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/terror1.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/chatham.htm --les ducs d'Enron! http://www.tarpley.net _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:17:43 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Finally: The Intellectuals Take a Stand Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed well, it seems as if the British have led us (the USA) into another of their hare-brained geopolitical quags, like they did with Jimmy in Afghanistan and Sir George in Iraq. now, will we be able to extricate ourselves? I propose to officialize the Administration's "policy" on energy (the "emmissions-trading shceme" at the center of the Kyoto Protocol, plus the deployment-de-facto of the "du" 99.3% or the uranium ore for the UN nationbuilders to pick-up for their purposes -- what ever in Hell they are -- by Congress's creation of an Act with a retroactively creative name. get behind & lead, folks! http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/privy.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/griffith.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/fallhous.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/hcarey.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/morgan4.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/lkffdr.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/lincoln3.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/terror1.htm http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/chatham.htm Piet Holbrouck wrote in message news:... >I think it is all very human after all : we aim for the long-term, but >our inability to secure it forces us to short-term behavior. --les ducs d'Enron! http://www.tarpley.net _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:43:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: A Mountain Comments: To: email_mayor@mail.ci.tucson.az.us Comments: cc: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr. Bob Walkup Mayor, City of Tucson, AZ, USA Dear Sir, Technically I don't live within the city limits of Tucson, but I felt = that I should write you anyway. I recently retired to the Tucson area = from the Central Coast area of California (Monterey Bay) for purely = economic reasons. But that's not why I'm writing you. A while back I = drove up to A Mountain Park and was shocked to see that there were NO = GUARD RAILS! It occurred to me that the city is leaving itself wide = open for a huge lawsuit if a car full of people were to accidentally = drive over the side, roll down to the bottom, and be killed. I = appreciate the fact that the city is strapped for funds, but I think = that the city can't afford not to deal with this public safety issue. = Even if the city has insurance that's still not a good reason to fail to = act. There must be some way to find the funds to fix this problem. On a more positive note, I was rather disappointed to discover that = there is no restaurant at the top of A Mountain. Obviously the narrow = road through a residential area could not accommodate a large amount of = tourist traffic. However, I see no reason why a large parking lot at = the bottom of A Mountain Park could not be connected to the top by some = type of tram. And a 2- or 3-story structure on the top would be quite = dramatically visible for miles, especially if lit up at night, from = either direction of the freeway, attracting many customers. A = restaurant with a rotating floor would afford a spectacular 360 degree = view of the greater Tucson metropolitan area. I would think that a = large geodesic dome would be most appropriate. Leasing out a portion of = A Mountain to some investor group would probably generate a great deal = of revenue for everyone involved. And the students at your local = university might at least do the preliminary feasibility studies into = the architecture and economics of such a project. Anyway, these are some of the thoughts of a recent implant to the Tucson = area. Sincerely, -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 18:55:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: a question about numbers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope it was something more sensible like it's divisible by 2, 3 and 4. Leifur Thor wrote: >Could the importance of the twelve thing been around the foot of the king >who instituted the ft. measurement i.e. foot as in the king's foot? > > > >>From: Bob Burkhardt >>Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works >> >>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic >>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 19:05:56 -0500 >>To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>Subject: Re: a question about numbers >> >>The Babylonians' number system revolved around 60 which was convenient >>because >>it was divisible by 2, 3 and 5. This is the basis for our time system >>anyway. Apparently >>our numerical system used to take 12 more seriously since if you look at >>English it doesn't >>make a shift until 13. One, Two, ..., Twelve are all unique sort of >>words and then after >>that they are more manufactured ... like Thir-teen, Four-teen, etc. >>Lancelot Hogben has >>an interesting discussion of the Babylonians in his book "Math for the >>Millions". >> >>Bob >> >>Leifur Thor wrote: >> >> >> >>>Math revolves around the number 10. We don't have say a 9 dollar bill... and >>>the foot which is 12 and historically funny, is over 10 and has trouble as a >>>base number therefore. >>> >>>And10 in not a number easily divided by 3, or divided into a triangle. >>> >>>10 is great for box, or square making though. >>> >>>What if we used math with say 3, 6 or 9 (numbers below a two digit number >>>that are dividable by three) as the major role player rather than 10. How >>>would this change how we think about math and engineering? >>> >>>To summarize, I guess it appears as if our square based society could >>>inherently be due to the fact that 10 which could historically be based on >>>10 human fingers or ten human toes might be a driving force to create feats >>>of engineering based on 10, or a number that doesn't work well with a >>>triangle, and that in fact if we use a base number of 3,6,or 9, we'd get a >>>whole new way of looking at math in general, and a math that works much >>>easier with triangles i.e. real structures. >>> >>>I'm no mathematician, and was made aware of this through my 4 year old son >>>and his inability to understand 10,100,1000 and their relationship with each >>>other. It got me thinking about this base math question. >>> >>>Any thoughts anyone? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:41:01 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Re: a question about numbers In-Reply-To: <3E77B1FD.9070409@channel1.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And aren' t there usually around twelve whole moon cycles in each sun cycle? On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 03:55 PM, Bob Burkhardt wrote: > I hope it was something more sensible like it's divisible by 2, 3 and > 4. > > Leifur Thor wrote: > >> Could the importance of the twelve thing been around the foot of the >> king >> who instituted the ft. measurement i.e. foot as in the king's foot? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 01:53:15 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: a question about numbers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thor's Foot is to be kept at the Bureau of Weights and Measures; the 21st cce is, like, so cryogenic! seriously, I dont' recall, where I read it, but the British system is actually base-twoish; so, who'd They assign that innovation? thus quoth: >>who instituted the ft. measurement i.e. foot as in the king's foot? --Dec.2000 'WAND' Chairman Paul O'Neill, reelected to Board. Newsish? http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/rr.12.00/ _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 22:35:45 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Global Electric Grid Status-Syria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Global Electricity Distribution Grid status-Syria and its neighbors: "In March 2001, a project to link the electric power grids of Syria, = Egypt, and Jordan was completed, with an inauguration ceremony attended = by Egyptian President Husni Mubarak and Jordan's King Abdullah. Linking = the three countries' grids together creates a network of approximately = 45 GW. In the future, the intention is to link up with Lebanon, Turkey, = and Iraq as well. A 217-mile connection to Turkey is tentatively = scheduled for completion sometime in 2002. The link between Jordan and = Syria is via 400-kilovolt cable, while the Jordanian-Egyptian link is = via underwater cable in the Red Sea. In August, 1998 Turkey reported = that its 115-mile transmission line from the Ataturk Dam to the border = region with Syria was completed, but that the electricity could not be = provided due to Syria's delayed construction on the connecting grid. In = June 2001, Syria and Iran signed an agreement on joint cooperation in = power production, transmission, and distribution." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/syria.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:22:26 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: a question about numbers MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, that seems a more likely source of 12 than a foot, but still it doesn't seem a sensible for dividing length measures into 12s. I could see time measures more likely would look at lunar cycles. I don't remember if the Babylonians used their sexigesimal system for measuring lengths as well. Bob David Lane wrote: > And aren' t there usually around twelve whole moon cycles in each sun > cycle? > > On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 03:55 PM, Bob Burkhardt wrote: > >> I hope it was something more sensible like it's divisible by 2, 3 and >> 4. >> >> Leifur Thor wrote: >> >>> Could the importance of the twelve thing been around the foot of the >>> king >>> who instituted the ft. measurement i.e. foot as in the king's foot? >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:38:32 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes In-Reply-To: <3E53EE7F.2080106@channel1.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob If the axel is fixed, and you apply pressure to the rim in a direction parallel to the axel, what happens? Are there any places along the rim where this direction of force is not resisted? Dick --- Bob Burkhardt wrote: > Ref: > http://www.channel1.com/users/bobwb/synergetics/photos/bikerim.html > > Here's a link to two photos I recently posted of an > experiment I did 20+ > years ago > attempting to verify one of Bucky's claims in > Synergetics. For me it seemed > like the minimum spokes I needed was eight rather than > 12. > > Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:54:04 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Joe Clinton's RanDome report MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here is Joe Clinton's report regarding whether or not ranDomes are geodesic structures. He viewed several models of them at the Tivoli conference in January. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/ Dick __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:39:36 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: a question about numbers In-Reply-To: <75A5318A-59A3-11D7-8C03-00039366933E@zenciti.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Only in our calendar. Anyone know how the Aztecs did it, since their calendar was much more advanced than ours, or so I've heard from many different sources. > From: David Lane > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 16:41:01 -0800 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: a question about numbers > > And aren' t there usually around twelve whole moon cycles in each sun > cycle? > > On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 03:55 PM, Bob Burkhardt wrote: > >> I hope it was something more sensible like it's divisible by 2, 3 and >> 4. >> >> Leifur Thor wrote: >> >>> Could the importance of the twelve thing been around the foot of the >>> king >>> who instituted the ft. measurement i.e. foot as in the king's foot? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:12:32 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Global Electric Grid Status-Syria Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed this is the kind of thing that's routinely reported in The New Federalist and EIR and 21st C. Science & Tech., but I've also seen them in the LATimes. damn -- I had no idea that that was a whole paragraph, as Joe's always pack onto a single line, at least as seen via hotmail ... no, I mean, from the listserv site, itself, which is what Hotmail pans-out to (and I verified it by paging the Buffalo site, directly; FUI .-) thus quoth: "In March 2001, a project to link the electric power grids of Syria, Egypt, and Jordan was completed, with an inauguration ceremony attended by Egyptian President Husni Mubarak and Jordan's King Abdullah. Linking the three countries' grids together creates a network of approximately 45 GW. In the future, the intention is to link up with Lebanon, Turkey, and Iraq as well. A 217-mile connection to Turkey is tentatively scheduled for completion sometime in 2002. The link between Jordan and Syria is via 400-kilovolt cable, while the Jordanian-Egyptian link is via underwater cable in the Red Sea. In August, 1998 Turkey reported that its 115-mile transmission line from the Ataturk Dam to the border region with Syria was completed, but that the electricity could not be provided due to Syria's delayed construction on the connecting grid. In June 2001, Syria and Iran signed an agreement on joint cooperation in power production, transmission, and distribution." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/syria.html --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S YOU & ISLAMIACS FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/plates.html http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:17:24 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: a question about numbers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed the things is that the unit between the quart & the gallon is usually ommitted e.g.; I don't know about other parameters. thus saith: the British system is actually base-twoish; so, --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S YOU & ISLAMIACS FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:22:07 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed 8 spokes will carry all forces with some redundancy, which is what the "minimal 12 spokes" o'Bucky was about, as I recall (since no-one looked it up in Amy's book); clearly, the wheel is not designed to be forced along the axis of rotation, and that structure depend upon how-far the spokes spread from the rim centerline to both sides of the hub; eh? thus quoth: If the axel is fixed, and you apply pressure to the rim in a direction parallel to the axel, what happens? Are there --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis? "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S YOU & ISLAMIACS FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:31:35 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Joe Clinton's RanDome report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed so, who did you steal the idea from -- was it Joe's "equal central angle conjecture" or Petit's bogus "qonical qunstruction qit?" apparently, they couldn't quite make a model of it, either. so, what are the references to "Icosahedral Circle Grid" and "Spherical Excess for?..." you can fool all of the people, some of the time, butt! thus quoth: Here is Joe Clinton's report regarding whether or not ranDomes are geodesic structures. He viewed several models of them at the Tivoli conference in January. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/ --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis? "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S YOU & ISLAMIACS FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 15:15:14 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Joe Clinton's RanDome report In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I will make all 4 of his reports available soon. --- Quincy wrote: > so, what are the references to "Icosahedral Circle Grid" > and > "Spherical Excess for?..." > thus quoth: > Here is Joe Clinton's report regarding whether or not > ranDomes are geodesic structures. He viewed several > models > of them at the Tivoli conference in January. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/ __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:13:21 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: It Came To Pass,Not to Stay Comments: To: joel puetz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joel, The Buckminster Fuller Institute sells a photocopy for $20; see http://www.bfi.org/cgi-bin/shop/search.cgi?f=result_category.html&category=C ATBooks&perpage=10&sortby=none Amazon.com has 16 used copies ranging in price between $7 and $35; see: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/offering/list/-/0025418106/used/ 1/104-7713746-2575969 Abebooks.com has 54 used copies ranging in price from $9 to $100; see http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookSearch?ph=2&an=Buckminster+Fuller&tn=And +It+Came+To+Pass,+Not+To+Stay&sortby=2 -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "joel puetz" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 2:34 PM Subject: It Came To Pass,Not to Stay > Hello Joe. My name is Joel Puetz, and I'm looking for a book. I am a medical student from the University of Saskatchewan but am a philosopher at heart. I am desperatly seeking a copy of the Elusive book "And It Came to Pass, Not to Stay" by BY R BUCKMINSTER FULLER. Can you help me? I visited your website and I was hoping you could help to guide me to a copy. Thank-you for your help Joe. > > Joel Puetz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:34:57 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Global Electric Grid Update-Spain MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Global Electricity Distribution Grid Update for Spain: "In August 2001, Spain and Portugal signed an agreement to form a single = electricity market by unifying their electricity networks. The = integration is to be completed in 2003." "As electricity demand has increased rapidly in Spain in the past years, = domestic supply has not kept up and Spain began importing electricity = from Morocco for the first time in December 2001 when cold temperatures = created a surge in demand. Union Fenosa and Endesa have signed = agreements with Moroccan power company ONE. Spain granted ONE the status = of an "external operator" in 1998, giving the company the right to deal = directly with Spanish electricity companies or on the Spanish spot = market. The power exchange between ONE and Spanish companies is through = the Spain-Morocco grid interconnection, which became operational in = 1998. Two power connections between Algeria and Spain are also planned, = one of which will run along side the Medgaz pipeline.=20 Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/spain.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:25:23 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Re: a question about numbers In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't mean on paper, I mean in Universe. If you count the moon cycles (28 to 29 days) in one sun cycle (365 to 366 days), I think you get 12 absolute "months." On Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 10:39 AM, Leifur Thor wrote: > Only in our calendar. Anyone know how the Aztecs did it, since their > calendar was much more advanced than ours, or so I've heard from many > different sources. > >> And aren' t there usually around twelve whole moon cycles in each sun >> cycle? >> >> On Tuesday, March 18, 2003, at 03:55 PM, Bob Burkhardt wrote: >> >>> I hope it was something more sensible like it's divisible by 2, 3 and >>> 4. >>> >>> Leifur Thor wrote: >>> >>>> Could the importance of the twelve thing been around the foot of the >>>> king >>>> who instituted the ft. measurement i.e. foot as in the king's foot? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:31:56 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: asymmetries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Joe Clinton's Equal Central Angle Conjecture is online at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/ Dick __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 14:08:21 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It stays fixed no matter which direction I push it. I haven't tried riding on it which could be an eye opener. It's not a difficult experiment to duplicate, and I'm curious to hear from someone else who's done it (as well as those who just want to kibitz). Bob Dick Fischbeck wrote: >Bob > >If the axel is fixed, and you apply pressure to the rim in >a direction parallel to the axel, what happens? Are there >any places along the rim where this direction of force is >not resisted? > >Dick > >--- Bob Burkhardt wrote: > > >>Ref: >> >> >> >http://www.channel1.com/users/bobwb/synergetics/photos/bikerim.html > > >>Here's a link to two photos I recently posted of an >>experiment I did 20+ >>years ago >>attempting to verify one of Bucky's claims in >>Synergetics. For me it seemed >>like the minimum spokes I needed was eight rather than >>12. >> >>Bob >> >> > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! >http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:26:32 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed seems fairly obvious that four spokes will do it, with a terrible lack of redundancy -- snap! there are only two "weaves" that will even begin to work, though; which one is best? (sik; actually, there's a wheel on the market that doesn't have the spokes to overlap, but that's not what I meant by weaving ... is it possible/better to overlap with just 4 spokes ?-) just realized that only one (non-overlapping) arrangment is (semi-) stable, though, and this may constitute a "rule" on attaching spokes. thus quoth: riding on it which could be an eye opener. It's not a difficult experiment to duplicate, --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:49:14 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed wow, I was beginning to think that this was a *Rube* Goldberg put-on, til I saw the "M." in his 1937 citation. the question is, if Joe didn't have a mathematical method, then how did he generate that set of diagrams? note that the "edge arc length" in his tables is the same as the "central angle" of the edges, but in radians -- the radius is the unit. this has left "Dick" in exactly the same position as he was before, namely, no where, there!... aren't you glad, Joe didn't learn of your ways, *before* the London conference? or is it, "no publicity is bad," for you? --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:53:06 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: geodesic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed oops; here's Joe's handwaving paper, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/Clinton%27s%20Equal%20Edge.pdf -- he does mention Fischstick, at the end. "randome" is nothing but a handjob, so far; when is this thing going to climax? thus saith: how did he generate that set of diagrams? note that the "edge arc length" in his tables is the same as the "central angle" of the edges, but in radians -- the radius is the unit. --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:57:34 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: a question about numbers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed firstly, Thor was probably referring to the Mayan calendar, which most folks only know by Jose Aguelles handwaving crap and multigraphic "interpretations" with the I Ching (et al ad vomitorium). it is really nothing, but *two* modulations used at the same time: one based on twenties, the other on lunar cycles (like the Jewish, Muslim etc. ones); there's "extra" days, about five, over the lunar-phase months (the sidereal period is about 27 days -- I was just reading about this .-) --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 21:59:59 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: a question about numbers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed you giant flake, don't even bother -- til *you* can make some sense out of it. anyway, one of them seems to already be there, as well. thus quoth: I will make all 4 of his reports available soon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/ --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 23:19:16 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: world energy grid Comments: To: bigpit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, The Global Electricity Storage & Distribution Grid is already about 50% complete; see http://www.geni.org/energy/multimedia/slideshows/animated/a_solution.htm Please see also http://buckminster.info/Ideas/10-EndEnergyDistribGrid.htm -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "bigpit" Newsgroups: alt.bucky-fuller Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 1:52 PM Subject: world energy grid > does anyone know if this is coming any closer to fruition? > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 09:10:35 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Frank Subject: Re: geodesic handjob In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Quincy luv,=20 Methinks you need to add anuther quince to your already cubed. Laughs a minute Gizzard Che! Tambien en tampico El 20/3/03 22:53, "Quincy Quincy Quincy" escribi=F3: > oops; here's Joe's handwaving paper, > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/Clinton%27s%20Equa= l%20E > dge.pdf > -- he does mention Fischstick, > at the end. >=20 > "randome" is nothing but a handjob, > so far; when is this thing going to climax? >=20 > thus saith: > how did he generate that set of diagrams? > note that the "edge arc length" in his tables > is the same as the "central angle" of the edges, > but in radians -- the radius is the unit. >=20 > --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... > La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols > des Grises de Kyoto: > (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ > BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. > Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): >=20 >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 15:42:06 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I doubt it. I say 8. Show us your wheel. Bob Quincy Quincy Quincy wrote: > seems fairly obvious that four spokes will do it, > with a terrible lack of redundancy -- snap! > there are only two "weaves" that will even begin > to work, though; which one is best? (sik; actually, > there's a wheel on the market that doesn't have the spokes > to overlap, but that's not what I meant by weaving ... > is it possible/better to overlap with just 4 spokes ?-) > > just realized that only one (non-overlapping) arrangment is (semi-) > stable, though, and this may constitute a "rule" > on attaching spokes. > > thus quoth: > riding on it which > could be an eye opener. It's not a difficult experiment to duplicate, > > --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... > La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols > des Grises de Kyoto: > (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ > BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. > Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): > 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 > 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE > 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU > 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 13:32:46 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) In-Reply-To: <3E7B791E.9040306@channel1.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Um, guys? I'm kinda new to this discussion, but wouldn't the strength of the spoke and the rim have an influence? I mean if your rim and spoke are strong enough, you'd really only need 1 spoke, right? Talk about doing more with less, eh? Or, (granted this is more likely) do you have some requirement with which I am unfamiliar? Like "how few spokes can you use, GIVEN that their strength is below x, relative to z" ? Or are wheels necessarily in tensegity? Is that why we use spokes? I really am ignorant about this, and welcome your response. Or? Thanks, Either way it's entertaining discourse! :-) David (the budding Design Scientist) PS, I will present the results from my Design Science Career questionaire soon. For now, just know I only found about two to four people who consider themselves Design Scientists (and only one of them had any input on what their work is called in traditional terms). :-( On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 12:42 PM, Bob Burkhardt wrote: > I doubt it. I say 8. Show us your wheel. > > Bob > > Quincy Quincy Quincy wrote: > >> seems fairly obvious that four spokes will do it, >> with a terrible lack of redundancy -- snap! >> there are only two "weaves" that will even begin >> to work, though; which one is best? (sik; actually, >> there's a wheel on the market that doesn't have the spokes >> to overlap, but that's not what I meant by weaving ... >> is it possible/better to overlap with just 4 spokes ?-) >> >> just realized that only one (non-overlapping) arrangment is (semi-) >> stable, though, and this may constitute a "rule" >> on attaching spokes. >> >> thus quoth: >> riding on it which >> could be an eye opener. It's not a difficult experiment to duplicate, >> >> --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... >> La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols >> des Grises de Kyoto: >> (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ >> BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. >> Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): >> 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 >> 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE >> 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU >> 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 16:30:48 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -- David Lane wrote: > Um, guys? cut > Or, (granted this is more likely) do you have some > requirement with > which I am unfamiliar? Yeah, like the spokes are only pulling and not pushing. Or are > wheels necessarily > in tensegity? Yes. Seperate tension and compression. > and welcome your response. > > David (the budding Design Scientist) > PS, I will present the results from my Design Science > Career > questionaire soon. For now, just know I only found about > two to four > people who consider themselves Design Scientists (and > only one of them > had any input on what their work is called in traditional > terms). :-( Mine is called shelter. Dick __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 20:50:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Clinton Papers Comments: To: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 4 papers by Joe Clinton regarding various aspects of geodesic geometry: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/ -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:40:16 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed thanks. don't be confused by the injection-molded, plastic wheels with 3 or more "spokes," which have considerable compressive strength. it's easy to see, given a loosely-linked, compressive hub, taht a minimum of 4 spokes is required to be threaded to the rim. of course, the rim would have to be correspondingly compressive, becuase of the large arcs unsupported by spokes -- call it, "the square wheel," perhaps. that is, in this case, it's easy to see if you consider the rim to be a "spheric," becuase three spokes just will not do it. (of course, you can use just two spokes, but that's just a matter of emphasis -- and I have a name for it .-) thus quoth: >requirement with >which I am unfamiliar? Yeah, like the spokes are only pulling and not pushing. Or are >wheels necessarily >in tensegity? Yes. Seperate tension and compression. --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/plates.html http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:57:00 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: geodesic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed to bad, but Joe's stuff is claptrap; the "spherical excess" tables give no mention, as to what it's supposed to mean. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/ --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocolsdes Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 20:59:24 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed on the wayside, as the typical number of spokes in a 27" or 26" wheel is 36, we can see why your 8-spoker was lopsided; the square wheel doesn't have to be (nor the trigonal wheel, were it possible .-) --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/plates.html http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 17:20:36 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The idea is to take a bicycle wheel and see the minimum number of spokes it takes to hold the hub firmly in relationship to the rim. When I tried it, I found eight spokes worked and anything less than that resulted in the hub wobbling. Bucky's hypothesis of 12 prompted me to try this. For myself, I think he's using too many, though I don't think I'd care to ride on anything less than 36 though I've had to at times. Bob David Lane wrote: > Um, guys? > > I'm kinda new to this discussion, but wouldn't the strength of the > spoke and the rim have an influence? I mean if your rim and spoke are > strong enough, you'd really only need 1 spoke, right? Talk about doing > more with less, eh? > > Or, (granted this is more likely) do you have some requirement with > which I am unfamiliar? Like "how few spokes can you use, GIVEN that > their strength is below x, relative to z" ? Or are wheels necessarily > in tensegity? Is that why we use spokes? I really am ignorant about > this, and welcome your response. > > Or? > > Thanks, Either way it's entertaining discourse! :-) > > David (the budding Design Scientist) > PS, I will present the results from my Design Science Career > questionaire soon. For now, just know I only found about two to four > people who consider themselves Design Scientists (and only one of them > had any input on what their work is called in traditional terms). :-( > > > On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 12:42 PM, Bob Burkhardt wrote: > >> I doubt it. I say 8. Show us your wheel. >> >> Bob >> >> Quincy Quincy Quincy wrote: >> >>> seems fairly obvious that four spokes will do it, >>> with a terrible lack of redundancy -- snap! >>> there are only two "weaves" that will even begin >>> to work, though; which one is best? (sik; actually, >>> there's a wheel on the market that doesn't have the spokes >>> to overlap, but that's not what I meant by weaving ... >>> is it possible/better to overlap with just 4 spokes ?-) >>> >>> just realized that only one (non-overlapping) arrangment is (semi-) >>> stable, though, and this may constitute a "rule" >>> on attaching spokes. >>> >>> thus quoth: >>> riding on it which >>> could be an eye opener. It's not a difficult experiment to duplicate, >>> >>> --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... >>> La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols >>> des Grises de Kyoto: >>> (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ >>> BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. >>> Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): >>> 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 >>> 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE >>> 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU >>> 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >>> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >>> >>> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 23:25:50 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed but we're talking about "ideally;" that is, really big spokes to make-up for the lack of redundancy.... actually, for the usual hub, it has to be an even number of spokes for balance/symmetry, and this is really obvious if you try to use three -- even though they'd be symmetrical at the rim, since 3 divides into 36. one could have only two spokes, but not with the usual hub, and it'd have no lateral "structure" or stiffness, at all: the least turn'd cause it to snap. I repeat: 4 spokes are the minimum. I may quit, soon, as I've obviously not done enough "in the real world;" against this crazy British crusade. see my topic on Usenet (or Goog), "Matrix IX: Googol Plex and the Captive Audiences" -- which hoepfully will be one of my last, there, as well. --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:20:32 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: blair wolfram Subject: Re: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe Bucky's 12 spoke tension experiment was for a non-planer tension space, as I saw it on display at the temporary Fuller exhibit in Carbondale, IL last summer. He had a golf-ball size sphere strung inside a vector equilibrium frame secured in place by 12 strings, and it wouldn't move by a force from any direction. This may explain why only 8 spokes hold securely in a bicycle wheel, or flat, alignment. What are your references or sources for a description of this experiment? Blair Bob Burkhardt wrote: > The idea is to take a bicycle wheel and see the minimum number of spokes > it takes to hold the hub firmly in relationship to the rim. When I > tried it, > I found eight spokes worked and anything less than that resulted in the > hub wobbling. Bucky's hypothesis of 12 prompted me to try this. For > myself, > I think he's using too many, though I don't think I'd care to ride on > anything less > than 36 though I've had to at times. > > Bob > > David Lane wrote: > >> Um, guys? >> >> I'm kinda new to this discussion, but wouldn't the strength of the >> spoke and the rim have an influence? I mean if your rim and spoke are >> strong enough, you'd really only need 1 spoke, right? Talk about doing >> more with less, eh? >> >> Or, (granted this is more likely) do you have some requirement with >> which I am unfamiliar? Like "how few spokes can you use, GIVEN that >> their strength is below x, relative to z" ? Or are wheels necessarily >> in tensegity? Is that why we use spokes? I really am ignorant about >> this, and welcome your response. >> >> Or? >> >> Thanks, Either way it's entertaining discourse! :-) >> >> David (the budding Design Scientist) >> PS, I will present the results from my Design Science Career >> questionaire soon. For now, just know I only found about two to four >> people who consider themselves Design Scientists (and only one of them >> had any input on what their work is called in traditional terms). :-( >> >> >> On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 12:42 PM, Bob Burkhardt wrote: >> >>> I doubt it. I say 8. Show us your wheel. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> Quincy Quincy Quincy wrote: >>> >>>> seems fairly obvious that four spokes will do it, >>>> with a terrible lack of redundancy -- snap! >>>> there are only two "weaves" that will even begin >>>> to work, though; which one is best? (sik; actually, >>>> there's a wheel on the market that doesn't have the spokes >>>> to overlap, but that's not what I meant by weaving ... >>>> is it possible/better to overlap with just 4 spokes ?-) >>>> >>>> just realized that only one (non-overlapping) arrangment is (semi-) >>>> stable, though, and this may constitute a "rule" >>>> on attaching spokes. >>>> >>>> thus quoth: >>>> riding on it which >>>> could be an eye opener. It's not a difficult experiment to duplicate, >>>> >>>> --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... >>>> La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols >>>> des Grises de Kyoto: >>>> (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ >>>> BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. >>>> Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): >>>> 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 >>>> 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE >>>> 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU >>>> 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 23:29:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Flying Dome Comments: To: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Short greyscale QuickTime video (no sound) of first helilift of a = geodesic dome: http://www.thirteen.org/bucky/qt/flying.qt -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 06:40:20 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Tivoli Conference Comments: To: sphere , synergeo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here is Chris Fearnley's report on the Tivoli conference of synergeticists. http://snec.cjfearnley.com/snec.meeting.2003.01.html Dick __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 10:06:27 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) Here is a link to one version of the 12-spoke explanation. See figure f and lets talk some more. It is the torquing ot turbining that seems to require 6 spokes on each side to control. If not for this torquing, 3 spokes on each diaphragm at 120 degrees would stablize the system. http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s06/figs/f4041a.html I see your point, Bob. I think I will try a model of the experiment. Dick On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:20:32 -0600, blair wolfram >I believe Bucky's 12 spoke tension experiment was for a non-planer >tension space, as I saw it on display at the temporary Fuller exhibit in >Carbondale, IL last summer. He had a golf-ball size sphere strung inside >a vector equilibrium frame secured in place by 12 strings, and it >wouldn't move by a force from any direction. This may explain why only 8 >spokes hold securely in a bicycle wheel, or flat, alignment. What are >your references or sources for a description of this experiment? > >Blair > >Bob Burkhardt wrote: > >> The idea is to take a bicycle wheel and see the minimum number of spokes >> it takes to hold the hub firmly in relationship to the rim. When I >> tried it, >> I found eight spokes worked and anything less than that resulted in the >> hub wobbling. Bucky's hypothesis of 12 prompted me to try this. For >> myself, >> I think he's using too many, though I don't think I'd care to ride on >> anything less >> than 36 though I've had to at times. >> >> Bob ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 19:17:39 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Re: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forgive me if I speak as a child, but I am genuinely unfamiliar with the bounds of this discussion. It seems to me there's still a few unarticulated requirements here, I'm afraid. When someone identifies "the usual" hub, what assumptions are included, and which are up for re-negotiation? I think some measure of of stiffness of the rim arc, or something, will become the actual limit before you can accurately identify the minimum number of spokes, no?. I asked about tensegrity, and a few people said "yeah!" but I'm not convinced we've really identified the envelope within which this balance of tension and compression exists for bicycle wheels... Or? Thanks, David On Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 07:06 AM, Dick Fischbeck wrote: > Here is a link to one version of the 12-spoke explanation. See figure > f and > lets talk some more. It is the torquing ot turbining that seems to > require 6 > spokes on each side to control. If not for this torquing, 3 spokes on > each > diaphragm at 120 degrees would stablize the system. > > http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s06/figs/f4041a.html > > I see your point, Bob. I think I will try a model of the experiment. > > Dick > > > On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:20:32 -0600, blair wolfram >> I believe Bucky's 12 spoke tension experiment was for a non-planer >> tension space, as I saw it on display at the temporary Fuller exhibit >> in >> Carbondale, IL last summer. He had a golf-ball size sphere strung >> inside >> a vector equilibrium frame secured in place by 12 strings, and it >> wouldn't move by a force from any direction. This may explain why >> only 8 >> spokes hold securely in a bicycle wheel, or flat, alignment. What are >> your references or sources for a description of this experiment? >> >> Blair >> >> Bob Burkhardt wrote: >> >>> The idea is to take a bicycle wheel and see the minimum number of >>> spokes >>> it takes to hold the hub firmly in relationship to the rim. When I >>> tried it, >>> I found eight spokes worked and anything less than that resulted in >>> the >>> hub wobbling. Bucky's hypothesis of 12 prompted me to try this. For >>> myself, >>> I think he's using too many, though I don't think I'd care to ride on >>> anything less >>> than 36 though I've had to at times. >>> >>> Bob > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:50:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Largest Domes in World Comments: To: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following is a tentative list of the 10 largest geodesic domes in = the world: #..Diam'..Country..Location.............................Description 1...710.....Japan....Kyosho Isle...........Fantasy Entertainment Complex 2...614..........".........Nagoya..................Multi-Purpose Arena 3...530......USA......Tacoma, WA.........Tacoma Dome 4...525..........".........Marquette, MI........Superior Dome, Northern = Michigan Univ 5...502..........".........Flagstaff, AZ..........Walkup Skydome, = Northern Arizona Univ 6...440..........".........Springerville, AZ...Round Valley High School = Stadium 7...430..........".........Houston, TX..........Kamric/Cinergy = Futuronics Soundstage 8...415..........".........Long Beach, CA...Former Spruce Goose Hangar 9...402....Taiwan...Mai Liao.................Formosa Plastics Storage = Facility 10.384......USA......Baton Rouge, LA..Union Tank Car Maintenance = Facility -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 07:11:01 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Frank Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please mr quincy,, Please please don't quit, (int eh background) forward ho. Please mr quincy,=20 Please please don't go.......... El 23/3/03 00:25, "Quincy Quincy Quincy" escribi=F3: > but we're talking about "ideally;" that is, > really big spokes to make-up for the lack > of redundancy.... actually, > for the usual hub, it has to be an even number > of spokes for balance/symmetry, and > this is really obvious if you try to use three > -- even though they'd be symmetrical at the rim, > since 3 divides into 36. one could have > only two spokes, but not with the usual hub, and > it'd have no lateral "structure" or stiffness, > at all: the least turn'd cause it to snap. > I repeat: 4 spokes are the minimum. >=20 > I may quit, soon, as > I've obviously not done enough "in the real world;" > against this crazy British crusade. see my topic > on Usenet (or Goog), "Matrix IX: > Googol Plex and the Captive Audiences" -- > which hoepfully will be one of my last, there, > as well. >=20 > --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): > Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... > "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy > http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:05:19 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Re: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) In-Reply-To: <2B3B86D2-5DA7-11D7-A0EF-00039366933E@zenciti.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii David Look into '12 degrees of freedom' in any of Bucky's works. That will help. There are 6 positive and 6 negative possible moves at anytime, anywhere. Are you familiar with the VE? Dick --- David Lane wrote: > Forgive me if I speak as a child, but I am genuinely > unfamiliar with > the bounds of this discussion. > > It seems to me there's still a few unarticulated > requirements here, I'm > afraid. When someone identifies "the usual" hub, what > assumptions are > included, and which are up for re-negotiation? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:13:01 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Re: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) In-Reply-To: <20030324160519.53096.qmail@web40712.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Monday, March 24, 2003, at 08:05 AM, Dick Fischbeck wrote: > David > > Look into '12 degrees of freedom' in any of Bucky's works. > That will help. OK, thanks. > There are 6 positive and 6 negative possible moves at > anytime, anywhere. > Are you familiar with the VE? Generally, but not specifically as it applies to wheel spokes. Thanks, David ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:25:20 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Tivoli Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed what a ridiculously categorical statement, considering that there is nothing that is not "euclidean" in it -- back to Milton Academy with the lot of ye! thus quoth: Applewhite as the 1st speaker. Ed spoke of many people asking him "What is Fuller going to be most remembered for?" His answer: Fuller's most lasting contribution was inventing a completely new way to measure experience. He also pointed out that over half of the people that understood Fuller's geometry, in this generation, were present in this room. --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:47:39 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I'm still maintaining that 4 is the minimum, but the dyscussuin of "turbining" may prove it, wrong. so, you ask of articulated requirements, monsieur Lane? the figure from _S_ (that Donny Fischt --who ever-- supplied) assumes the usual bicycle wheel hub, but I hadn't noticed Bucky's use of "turbining" (cf, basketweave tenseg.), which is just the way that the spokes impinge on the hub, skewly: 6 on the right side of the hub, 6 on the left, and 3 on each side skewed "forwardly" with 3 "backwardly" (well, I don't know if the bicycle folks have a name for that .-) as I noted, before, the analysis of the tension in the spokes requires looking at the spoke & its attachment to the rim & hub; to the hub center from the spoke attachment, to the "turbinging" offset, to the rim, makes a (diagrammatic) "quadrirectangular tetrah.," or the spacial analof of the "right trigon." nothing but the spokes are purely tensional, if even those (viz, the "pole-vaulting" of compressive spokes, and not considering the molecular structure etc.). Bucky's captions don't quite capture tha fact that all of the spokes in the upper half are in tension due to supporting the hub, by a simple sine relation; when composed with the noted horizontal "bellying," do the spokes maintain an equal tension? http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s06/figs/f4041a.html --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 17:54:56 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Bucky's is definitely a non-planar (or "spheric") consideration, just like the standard 26" wheel; obviously, though, it's "polarized" for the sake of rolling on your street. as I recall, the golf-ball-in-VE is also in _S_, a figure or picture; squash the jitterbug! thus quoth: I believe Bucky's 12 spoke tension experiment was for a non-planer tension space, as I saw it on display at the temporary Fuller exhibit in Carbondale, IL last summer. He had a golf-ball size sphere strung inside a vector equilibrium frame secured in place by 12 strings, and http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s06/figs/f4041a.html --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 00:44:46 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I almost thought that you were correct about 8 being the min. after roughing-out the analysis with a little diagram, I'm sure it's 4 -- with no redundancy, meaning a catastrophic failure, if one spoke breaks. then, I realized a simple way to verify it, assuming that the standard 26" or 27" or 700cm wheel has its numver of spokes, divisible by 4: just mark-out any four at ninety degrees, and look at it. he who dyscovers the special symmetry, gets a pat on the head. she who does, gets a *kiss* on the head (at minimum .-) --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/plates.html http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:44:53 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well I'm talking practically. Either way I don't see four is going to do it. I'm just talking regular bicycle wheels like Bucky was talking about. I've seen others with cast resin or whatever, but that's not what I'm talking about, nor Bucky I think. Bob Quincy Quincy Quincy wrote: > but we're talking about "ideally;" that is, > really big spokes to make-up for the lack > of redundancy.... actually, > for the usual hub, it has to be an even number > of spokes for balance/symmetry, and > this is really obvious if you try to use three > -- even though they'd be symmetrical at the rim, > since 3 divides into 36. one could have > only two spokes, but not with the usual hub, and > it'd have no lateral "structure" or stiffness, > at all: the least turn'd cause it to snap. > I repeat: 4 spokes are the minimum. > > I may quit, soon, as > I've obviously not done enough "in the real world;" > against this crazy British crusade. see my topic > on Usenet (or Goog), "Matrix IX: > Googol Plex and the Captive Audiences" -- > which hoepfully will be one of my last, there, > as well. > > --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): > Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... > "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy > http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:50:48 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bucky extended the 12-spoke idea to bicycle wheels, but I don't think he actually made one. I suspect it's just a paper idea that doesn't work out when reduced to practice, or maybe there's something I'm not seeing. My web page has a link to the appropriate Synergetics figure (640.41A). Ref: http://bobwb.tripod.com/synergetics/photos/bikerim.html Bob blair wolfram wrote: > I believe Bucky's 12 spoke tension experiment was for a non-planer > tension space, as I saw it on display at the temporary Fuller exhibit in > Carbondale, IL last summer. He had a golf-ball size sphere strung inside > a vector equilibrium frame secured in place by 12 strings, and it > wouldn't move by a force from any direction. This may explain why only 8 > spokes hold securely in a bicycle wheel, or flat, alignment. What are > your references or sources for a description of this experiment? > > Blair > > Bob Burkhardt wrote: > >> The idea is to take a bicycle wheel and see the minimum number of spokes >> it takes to hold the hub firmly in relationship to the rim. When I >> tried it, >> I found eight spokes worked and anything less than that resulted in the >> hub wobbling. Bucky's hypothesis of 12 prompted me to try this. For >> myself, >> I think he's using too many, though I don't think I'd care to ride on >> anything less >> than 36 though I've had to at times. >> >> Bob >> >> David Lane wrote: >> >>> Um, guys? >>> >>> I'm kinda new to this discussion, but wouldn't the strength of the >>> spoke and the rim have an influence? I mean if your rim and spoke are >>> strong enough, you'd really only need 1 spoke, right? Talk about doing >>> more with less, eh? >>> >>> Or, (granted this is more likely) do you have some requirement with >>> which I am unfamiliar? Like "how few spokes can you use, GIVEN that >>> their strength is below x, relative to z" ? Or are wheels necessarily >>> in tensegity? Is that why we use spokes? I really am ignorant about >>> this, and welcome your response. >>> >>> Or? >>> >>> Thanks, Either way it's entertaining discourse! :-) >>> >>> David (the budding Design Scientist) >>> PS, I will present the results from my Design Science Career >>> questionaire soon. For now, just know I only found about two to four >>> people who consider themselves Design Scientists (and only one of them >>> had any input on what their work is called in traditional terms). :-( >>> >>> >>> On Friday, March 21, 2003, at 12:42 PM, Bob Burkhardt wrote: >>> >>>> I doubt it. I say 8. Show us your wheel. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> Quincy Quincy Quincy wrote: >>>> >>>>> seems fairly obvious that four spokes will do it, >>>>> with a terrible lack of redundancy -- snap! >>>>> there are only two "weaves" that will even begin >>>>> to work, though; which one is best? (sik; actually, >>>>> there's a wheel on the market that doesn't have the spokes >>>>> to overlap, but that's not what I meant by weaving ... >>>>> is it possible/better to overlap with just 4 spokes ?-) >>>>> >>>>> just realized that only one (non-overlapping) arrangment is (semi-) >>>>> stable, though, and this may constitute a "rule" >>>>> on attaching spokes. >>>>> >>>>> thus quoth: >>>>> riding on it which >>>>> could be an eye opener. It's not a difficult experiment to duplicate, >>>>> >>>>> --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... >>>>> La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols >>>>> des Grises de Kyoto: >>>>> (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ >>>>> BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. >>>>> Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): >>>>> 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 >>>>> 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE >>>>> 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU >>>>> 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >>>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 12:57:28 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: Spoke Minimum? (Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bucky was talking wheels with wire spokes. Find one and see how few you think it takes to hold the hub in place. Maybe you can dig up one of those old car wheels that used spokes in an essential way, but finding an old bicycle wheel where the spokes aren't totally rusted is probably the easiest. You'll find a spoke wrench handy as well, but they're easy to come by at a bicycle shop. Bob David Lane wrote: > Forgive me if I speak as a child, but I am genuinely unfamiliar with > the bounds of this discussion. > > It seems to me there's still a few unarticulated requirements here, I'm > afraid. When someone identifies "the usual" hub, what assumptions are > included, and which are up for re-negotiation? > > I think some measure of of stiffness of the rim arc, or something, will > become the actual limit before you can accurately identify the minimum > number of spokes, no?. > > I asked about tensegrity, and a few people said "yeah!" but I'm not > convinced we've really identified the envelope within which this > balance of tension and compression exists for bicycle wheels... > > Or? > > Thanks, > David > > > On Sunday, March 23, 2003, at 07:06 AM, Dick Fischbeck wrote: > >> Here is a link to one version of the 12-spoke explanation. See figure >> f and >> lets talk some more. It is the torquing ot turbining that seems to >> require 6 >> spokes on each side to control. If not for this torquing, 3 spokes on >> each >> diaphragm at 120 degrees would stablize the system. >> >> http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/s06/figs/f4041a.html >> >> I see your point, Bob. I think I will try a model of the experiment. >> >> Dick >> >> >> On Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:20:32 -0600, blair wolfram >> >>> I believe Bucky's 12 spoke tension experiment was for a non-planer >>> tension space, as I saw it on display at the temporary Fuller exhibit >>> in >>> Carbondale, IL last summer. He had a golf-ball size sphere strung >>> inside >>> a vector equilibrium frame secured in place by 12 strings, and it >>> wouldn't move by a force from any direction. This may explain why >>> only 8 >>> spokes hold securely in a bicycle wheel, or flat, alignment. What are >>> your references or sources for a description of this experiment? >>> >>> Blair >>> >>> Bob Burkhardt wrote: >>> >>>> The idea is to take a bicycle wheel and see the minimum number of >>>> spokes >>>> it takes to hold the hub firmly in relationship to the rim. When I >>>> tried it, >>>> I found eight spokes worked and anything less than that resulted in >>>> the >>>> hub wobbling. Bucky's hypothesis of 12 prompted me to try this. For >>>> myself, >>>> I think he's using too many, though I don't think I'd care to ride on >>>> anything less >>>> than 36 though I've had to at times. >>>> >>>> Bob >>> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 13:00:06 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Build it at some point. Just drawing doesn't make it. There must be an old bicycle that no one wants in Santa Monica. Bob Quincy Quincy Quincy wrote: > I almost thought that you were correct about 8 being the min. > after roughing-out the analysis > with a little diagram, I'm sure it's 4 -- > with no redundancy, meaning a catastrophic failure, > if one spoke breaks. > then, I realized a simple way to verify it, > assuming that the standard 26" or 27" or 700cm wheel > has its numver of spokes, divisible by 4: > just mark-out any four at ninety degrees, > and look at it. > > he who dyscovers the special symmetry, > gets a pat on the head. she who does, > gets a *kiss* on the head (at minimum .-) > > --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): > Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... > So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, > for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" > "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy > http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) > http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/plates.html > http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:55:23 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerardo Garcia Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Quincy Quincy Quincy >Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > >To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 00:44:46 +0000 I guess Frankcho will agree with me... Below, there are two Quincy's deliveries. I do not think (if Blair refers to the picture "the witches of the Blair project") that anybody not having had the experience of getting lost in the woods can understand the feeling (only the feeling) of that picture. I do not know about Quincy's thesis about rocking the school boat. I only remember the Polanski's McBeth witches and I think that Quincy's lines (he who discovers the special symmetry...) sound like that kind of music (good intentions, of course). I mean, in this list almost everybody shares an almost limitless faith in design science, but few see contradiction in the faith on devices and some of Bucky's lines about "everything being metaphysical at the end". I signed the "no a la guerra" (say no to war) lists (very serious people: they did not allow me to sign as George Bush. Now I blame them because nobody payed attention to my signature... and "something else would had happened if they had let me sign as Bush")with the same enthusiasm Quincy attacks Bush or Blair. When design science, christianism, buddhism, islamism, etc. fails to stop this kind of events, I prefer to remember that nobody likes to pay attention to those words dropped by Fuller (and I remind you that at least one aquaintance of Fuller, Ms. de Varco, stressed that phrases) about metaphysics. The problem with metaphysics is that faith in design science goes to second place immediatly. But remember that second places are not that bad: just ask Japan and Germany and Italy (they were second place in the podium of WW II). It is metaphysical to change your tastes: would anybody doubt that Lennon was in love with his other-kind-of-beauty wife? or that he had the tools to understand her beauty? It is OK to act as if nothing was happening because spaceshipearth will do her job anyway. But anyway I insist in the proposition that first thing to do (before trying to break through economy-twisted-by-invention: is internet not enough?) is to recognize the necessities of the rich and powerful, because first thing they do if sent to the freezer is very different of what design scientists would do. Would it be so crazy that (again) design science is for the "sinners" because the people that does not have troubles about it does not need this gospel? I think that there is no place to retire, conquer, or isolate (nor pension funds). I propose a change of taste: more "why Castaneda pointed to Fuller" just for a little while... they say that nanothings will invent everything by themselves. Well, you would have to believe in maya metaphysics... and change your tastes a little bit. I forgot how Frank (Pancho) says good by (joder?) best designed wishes Gerardo Garc'ia Tampico (la de Henares) >he who dyscovers the special symmetry, >gets a pat on the head. she who does, >gets a *kiss* on the head (at minimum .-) > >--A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 02:55:28 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Minimum of Eight Spokes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I agree with the Wolframite, Bucky's thing was a paper project, but I'll have to look at Edmondson's thing on it -- there's probably no denying the redundant aspect of it, even if it has to be modified. I stared into my wheel, today, and could readily see that I was wrong, after about 10' -- with the standard-design wheel (there's few differnces, except amongsts some of the new, wild-and-crazy or lightwieght stuff ... like, I saw one that I htought had 7 spokes, but I realized that it was really 14, because Bob's experiment has shown, otherwise -- and the `14 are arrayed in a suboptimal pattern, I'd say, at this moment-being .-) anyway, "four" can be correct, but only for a "degenerate" pattern, using the quadrirectangular tetrah. analysis (the hypoteneuse is the spoke .-) as stated, the 36-spoke pattern does not admit of a regular 8-spoke job -- and nor the 4-spoker! the question about the special symmetry is still awardable to the first to "see" it. --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:15:43 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Picture enquiry - Princeton University Press Comments: To: David Ireland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Mr Ireland, Using one of the pic search engines, I found the pic at http://fachberatung-biologie.de/Themen/Zelle/images/volvox1.jpg Unfortunately I don't read German and so I'm not quite sure who ownes the website or the picture. -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Ireland" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 8:43 AM Subject: Picture enquiry - Princeton University Press > Dear Mr Moore, > > On the 'Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute' there is a picture that may be > suitable for use on the cover of a forthcoming Princeton University Press > book. The picture is > http://www.buckminster.info//Pics/Icos-Nature-Volvox.gif. I would be very > grateful if you could tell us who the copyright holder may be so that we > can, if need be, obtain the necessary permission to use the picture. > > I look forward to hearing from you. > > David Ireland > ___________________________________ > David Ireland > Editor, Princeton University Press > 3 Market Place, Woodstock > Oxfordshire, OX20 1SY, UK > Tel: +44 (0)1993 814502 > Fax: +44 (0)1993 814504 > E-mail: direland@pupress.co.uk > http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/math > ____________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:30:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Burkhardt Subject: Re: Picture enquiry - Princeton University Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Joe, The picture belongs to the Regionale Fachberatung Biologie and the guy who runs it (/Gerhard Arnold, StD) /is apparently responsible for developing biology curriculum for a group of high schools in his district. I can only see disclaimers on the site and nothing which restricts use by others of the material. Dr. Arnold would probably be the best one to inquire further with (GArnold@t-online.de). I imagine he speaks English. I couldn't find where the picture was used in paging through the site though I think I got close in the Cytologie section. Bob Joe S Moore wrote: >Dear Mr Ireland, > >Using one of the pic search engines, I found the pic at >http://fachberatung-biologie.de/Themen/Zelle/images/volvox1.jpg > >Unfortunately I don't read German and so I'm not quite sure who ownes the >website or the picture. > >-------------------------------------------- >Joe S Moore >joe_s_moore@hotmail.com >http://buckminster.info >------------------------------------------- >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Ireland" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 8:43 AM >Subject: Picture enquiry - Princeton University Press > > > > >>Dear Mr Moore, >> >>On the 'Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute' there is a picture that may >> >> >be > > >>suitable for use on the cover of a forthcoming Princeton University Press >>book. The picture is >>http://www.buckminster.info//Pics/Icos-Nature-Volvox.gif. I would be very >>grateful if you could tell us who the copyright holder may be so that we >>can, if need be, obtain the necessary permission to use the picture. >> >>I look forward to hearing from you. >> >>David Ireland >>___________________________________ >>David Ireland >>Editor, Princeton University Press >>3 Market Place, Woodstock >>Oxfordshire, OX20 1SY, UK >>Tel: +44 (0)1993 814502 >>Fax: +44 (0)1993 814504 >>E-mail: direland@pupress.co.uk >>http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/math >>____________________________________ >> >> > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:35:28 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: frank zubek Subject: size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello to all; I'm new to this list but been swapping ideas with synergio guys for some time now. I'm working on a cube dissection "Elusive cube" check the web site please I would appreciate your comments. http://www.clowder.net/zubek/zubek.html This particular set is unique in several aspects but most importantly it lead me to a blind ally and have not been able to get out. There are few things which can not be counterdicted yet obviously they are also not accepted by the scientific or mathematical community. I'm talking of relative size of individual shapes where by my experiment and also a mathematical prove there must be a shape which is the absolutely smallest of all shapes If circle is the largest of all shapes in flat geometry than the triangle is the smallest one. Circle is a whole shape triangle is only a half shape where the formula clearly suggest that base time height divided by two. In a solid the sphere is the largest the tet. is the smallest. The tet. is exactly only a 1/3 shape where again the formula suggest that base time height divided by three. So by this general grouping i also can say that the largest of fractional shapes with one common vertex is a cone having the same formula but because it's base is a circle it becomes the largest one. There should not be any problem with the statements above but the question arises, is there a shape which is the smallest one. Well sure we all know that the reg. tet. is the smallest symmetrical shape but i have found a mite which has to be the smallest of all irregular shapes and this shape is 1/8 of a octahedron (octane). I have analyzed Fuller dissection of a 1/4 reg. tet. dissection and i was told that Fuller as others always followed nature but it seams conterdictory to his quanta modules the way he derived them. Since nature always follows one principle, which is to achieve the most for the least expenditure of effort it is hard to accept that in that particular dissections he used natural intuition. He divided the reg. tet. in to 24 pieces it toke six cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve identity for six shapes where it toke me only three cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve identity arriving at four shapes. These shapes are not same in appearance but identical in volumes. Q- mods are also not identical since they are A-B which is left and right handedness. I have set up this following problem to demonstrate that Q-T-S or any module is larger than the 1/8 octahedron (octane). I know it sounds not true where it takes 72 mods to build a two freq. cube and my set contains 44 shapes but to me it is nothing more as that he divided the reg. tet. in to smaller units than have i. in which it can be divided us much one wishes to. But let build a wall and let this wall be build by the smallest of bricks possible and let no one brick having the shortest edge to be under one unit length. and at this point no matter how hard i try it is always apparent that the 1/8 oct. always becomes to be the smallest brick possible. If lets say you pick a Q- mod.it would take 9 of them for a first order cube. If the Q- mod. shortest leg be one unit in length than that Q mod will be larger than a 1/8 oct. in surface area and the final brick (cube)will be larger also. If you make the cube build by Q-mod.to have its edge of one unit length than the individual Q- mod. in that cube will have its edge shorter than one unit so it would not qualify to the above restriction. So either way this problem points out that actually there is no other shape which can be smaller than 1/8 octahedron. The only smaller shape and there is infinite amount of them is the 1/8 oct. distorted in to a very pointy three sided pyramid or a very shallow pyramid where none of these would be capable to build any wall. Please lets realize one very crucial fact which apparently was missed by Mr. Fuller since i was not able to depict that from his synergetic volume 1 nor 2 and that is that the reg. tet. is made up by the longest of lines where there are no longer lines with in across or anywhere other than the lanes making it up. This is the only shape which we call the smallest symmetrical shape made up by the longest of lines. Cube on the other hand is a shape which is made up by the shortest of lines where all other lines are longer like the hypotenuse of it's face and the diagonal across the solid. Is there anything wrong with this analogy? regards frank __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 18:06:25 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Paul Taylor Subject: Spatial relations Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Guardian article today discusses Fuller: Spatial relations The science of morphing has created a resurgence of geometry-led architecture... http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/science/story/0,12450,922353,00.html Paul Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 10:29:57 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: <20030326223528.78733.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Frank I have two questions for you- Are you saying that the cube has more space than a tetrahedron, which is does, though it has little in way of structure. And are you saying that the cone is a superior structure over a tetrahedron? Thanks > From: frank zubek > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:35:28 -0800 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: size > > Hello to all; > > I'm new to this list but been swapping ideas with > synergio guys for some time now. > I'm working on a cube dissection "Elusive cube" check > the web site please I would appreciate your comments. > http://www.clowder.net/zubek/zubek.html > > This particular set is unique in several aspects but > most importantly it lead me to a blind ally and have > not been able to get out. > > There are few things which can not be counterdicted > yet obviously they are also not accepted by the > scientific or mathematical community. I'm talking of > relative size of individual shapes where by my > experiment and also a mathematical prove there must be > a shape which is the absolutely smallest of all shapes > > If circle is the largest of all shapes in flat > geometry > than the triangle is the smallest one. Circle is a > whole shape triangle is only a half shape where the > formula clearly suggest that base time height divided > by two. In a solid the sphere is the largest the tet. > is the smallest. The tet. is exactly only a 1/3 shape > where again the formula suggest that base time height > divided by three. > > So by this general grouping i also can say that the > largest of fractional shapes with one common vertex is > a cone having the same formula but because it's base > is a circle it becomes the largest one. There should > not be any problem with the statements above but the > question arises, is there a shape which is the > smallest one. Well sure we all know that the reg. tet. > is the smallest symmetrical shape but i have found a > mite which has to be the smallest of all irregular > shapes and this shape is 1/8 of a octahedron (octane). > > I have analyzed Fuller dissection of a 1/4 reg. tet. > dissection and i was told that Fuller as others always > followed nature but it seams conterdictory to his > quanta modules the way he derived them. Since nature > always follows one principle, which is to achieve the > most for the least expenditure of effort it is hard to > accept that in that particular dissections he used > natural intuition. He divided the reg. tet. in to 24 > pieces it toke six cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve > identity for six shapes where it toke me only three > cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve identity arriving > at four shapes. These shapes are not same in > appearance but identical in volumes. Q- mods are also > not identical since they are A-B which is left and > right handedness. > > I have set up this following problem to demonstrate > that Q-T-S or any module is larger than the 1/8 > octahedron (octane). I know it sounds not true where > it takes 72 mods to build a two freq. cube and my set > contains 44 shapes but to me it is nothing more as > that he divided the reg. tet. in to smaller units than > have i. in which it can be divided us much one wishes > to. > > But let build a wall and let this wall be build by the > smallest of bricks possible and let no one brick > having the shortest edge to be under one unit length. > and at this point no matter how hard i try it is > always apparent that the 1/8 oct. always becomes to be > the smallest brick possible. > > If lets say you pick a Q- mod.it would take 9 of them > for a first order cube. If the Q- mod. shortest leg be > one unit in length than that Q mod will be larger than > a 1/8 oct. in surface area and the final brick > (cube)will be larger also. If you make the cube build > by Q-mod.to have its edge of one unit length than the > individual Q- mod. in that cube will have its edge > shorter than one unit so it would not qualify to the > above restriction. So either way this problem points > out that actually there is no other shape which can be > smaller than 1/8 octahedron. The only smaller shape > and there is infinite amount of them is the 1/8 oct. > distorted in to a very pointy three sided pyramid or a > very shallow pyramid where none of these would be > capable to build any wall. > Please lets realize one very crucial fact which > apparently was missed by Mr. Fuller since i was not > able to depict that from his synergetic volume 1 nor 2 > > and that is that the reg. tet. is made up by the > longest of lines where there are no longer lines with > in across or anywhere other than the lanes making it > up. This is the only shape which we call the smallest > symmetrical shape made up by the longest of lines. > Cube on the other hand is a shape which is made up by > the shortest of lines where all other lines are longer > like the hypotenuse of it's face and the diagonal > across the solid. Is there anything wrong with this > analogy? > > regards frank > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:38:01 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: frank zubek Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Leifur Thor wrote: > Frank I have two questions for you- > > Are you saying that the cube has more space than a > tetrahedron, which is > does, Yes cube does have more space but on the contrary it is build by the smallest of lines and that is where the arguments of the smallest building block prevails. though it has little in way of structure. > > And are you saying that the cone is a superior > structure over a tetrahedron? I do not think that any structure is superior over the other it is usually up to nature to select the best to a suited condition. I only saying that the reg. tet. is made up by the longest of lines, where you may think of the oficiency of a structure surface to volume ratio and the reg. tet. is the best for that but I'm not talking of efficiency rather of the size of a individual shape. Cone is only larger it encloses the most volume. If a base of a cone can inscribe a base of a tet. and they are the same height than the cone is the largest one. > Thanks > > > From: frank zubek > > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster > Fuller's works > > > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:35:28 -0800 > > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: size > > > > Hello to all; > > > > I'm new to this list but been swapping ideas with > > synergio guys for some time now. > > I'm working on a cube dissection "Elusive cube" > check > > the web site please I would appreciate your > comments. > > http://www.clowder.net/zubek/zubek.html > > > > This particular set is unique in several aspects > but > > most importantly it lead me to a blind ally and > have > > not been able to get out. > > > > There are few things which can not be > counterdicted > > yet obviously they are also not accepted by the > > scientific or mathematical community. I'm talking > of > > relative size of individual shapes where by my > > experiment and also a mathematical prove there > must be > > a shape which is the absolutely smallest of all > shapes > > > > If circle is the largest of all shapes in flat > > geometry > > than the triangle is the smallest one. Circle is a > > whole shape triangle is only a half shape where > the > > formula clearly suggest that base time height > divided > > by two. In a solid the sphere is the largest the > tet. > > is the smallest. The tet. is exactly only a 1/3 > shape > > where again the formula suggest that base time > height > > divided by three. > > > > So by this general grouping i also can say that > the > > largest of fractional shapes with one common > vertex is > > a cone having the same formula but because it's > base > > is a circle it becomes the largest one. There > should > > not be any problem with the statements above but > the > > question arises, is there a shape which is the > > smallest one. Well sure we all know that the reg. > tet. > > is the smallest symmetrical shape but i have found > a > > mite which has to be the smallest of all irregular > > shapes and this shape is 1/8 of a octahedron > (octane). > > > > I have analyzed Fuller dissection of a 1/4 reg. > tet. > > dissection and i was told that Fuller as others > always > > followed nature but it seams conterdictory to his > > quanta modules the way he derived them. Since > nature > > always follows one principle, which is to achieve > the > > most for the least expenditure of effort it is > hard to > > accept that in that particular dissections he used > > natural intuition. He divided the reg. tet. in to > 24 > > pieces it toke six cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to > achieve > > identity for six shapes where it toke me only > three > > cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve identity > arriving > > at four shapes. These shapes are not same in > > appearance but identical in volumes. Q- mods are > also > > not identical since they are A-B which is left and > > right handedness. > > > > I have set up this following problem to > demonstrate > > that Q-T-S or any module is larger than the 1/8 > > octahedron (octane). I know it sounds not true > where > > it takes 72 mods to build a two freq. cube and my > set > > contains 44 shapes but to me it is nothing more as > > that he divided the reg. tet. in to smaller units > than > > have i. in which it can be divided us much one > wishes > > to. > > > > But let build a wall and let this wall be build by > the > > smallest of bricks possible and let no one brick > > having the shortest edge to be under one unit > length. > > and at this point no matter how hard i try it is > > always apparent that the 1/8 oct. always becomes > to be > > the smallest brick possible. > > > > If lets say you pick a Q- mod.it would take 9 of > them > > for a first order cube. If the Q- mod. shortest > leg be > > one unit in length than that Q mod will be larger > than > > a 1/8 oct. in surface area and the final brick > > (cube)will be larger also. If you make the cube > build > > by Q-mod.to have its edge of one unit length than > the > > individual Q- mod. in that cube will have its edge > > shorter than one unit so it would not qualify to > the > > above restriction. So either way this problem > points > > out that actually there is no other shape which > can be > > smaller than 1/8 octahedron. The only smaller > shape > > and there is infinite amount of them is the 1/8 > oct. > > distorted in to a very pointy three sided pyramid > or a > > very shallow pyramid where none of these would be > > capable to build any wall. > > Please lets realize one very crucial fact which > > apparently was missed by Mr. Fuller since i was > not > > able to depict that from his synergetic volume 1 > nor 2 > > > > and that is that the reg. tet. is made up by the > > longest of lines where there are no longer lines > with > > in across or anywhere other than the lanes making > it > > up. This is the only shape which we call the > smallest > > symmetrical shape made up by the longest of lines. > > Cube on the other hand is a shape which is made up > by > > the shortest of lines where all other lines are > longer > > like the hypotenuse of it's face and the diagonal > > across the solid. Is there anything wrong with > this > > analogy? > > > > regards frank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, > live on your desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:39:54 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed it's easy to prove the formula for the volume of a tetrahedron, vis-a-vu the hexahedron (or "qyoob"), because one can dissect the hexah. into three congruent pyramids, which all have a tetragon (or "sqware") of the hexah, as their base. of course, a similar dissection -- literally into two parts -- applies to the tetragon, vis-a-vu the trigon. your observation of the "smallest" is just an artifact of the use of the qyoob & sqware as "The" units of mensuration, and has no physical significance, at all. of course, this is the central *bete noir* of the Greeks that Bucky attacks, and all due honorary doctorates must be applied to him (see _My Posthumous Scenario for You_ .-) give it another go, Zube! --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/plates.html http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:54:58 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Spatial relations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed it's easy to prove the formula for the volume of a tetrahedron, that was an article for total newbies ... hey, Zube! just kidding, man. the only thing of interest in it, the "gridshell" with the 4-way grid, isn't pictured, although it may have been in the paper. of course, if you live in England, it's not far to any museum on the train. Platform 9-3/4, all abroad! thus quoth: The downland gridshell, at the Weald and Downland Museum, Sussex, is a brilliant piece of architecture. The gridshell, the first of its kind in Britain, marries high-level carpentry skills with the new plastic shape-making. It literally morphs during construction: it is made from oak laths end-jointed to create very long spars. There are four layers of the meshed laths and the nodes have a patented metal connnector that allows the angle between crossed laths to vary. To create the shell shape, the grid was laid out flat over a scaffold and then bent into a double hourglass shape. --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 22:04:37 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Spatial relations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed that really sounds like the "Hoberman sphere," which is awfuly simple if you look at it. what is its primary symmetry? when the article says "end-jointed laths," it probably means laminated ones, by which arbitrary lengths can be created; see the website of the APA (which still uses those initials re Plywood, but is renamed something like the Engineered Woodstuff Institute .-) thus quoth: Tshape-making. It literally morphs during construction: it is made from oak laths end-jointed to create very long spars. There are four layers of the meshed laths and the nodes have a patented metal connnector that allows the angle between crossed laths to vary. To create the shell shape, the grid was laid out flat over a --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 14:22:11 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: frank zubek Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Quincy Quincy Quincy wrote: > it's easy to prove the formula for the volume of a > tetrahedron, > vis-a-vu the hexahedron (or "qyoob"), because > one can dissect the hexah. into three congruent > pyramids, > which all have a tetragon (or "sqware") of the > hexah, as their base. of > course, > a similar dissection -- literally into two parts -- > applies > to the tetragon, vis-a-vu the trigon. > your observation of the "smallest" is just an > artifact > of the use of the qyoob & sqware as "The" units of > mensuration, and > has no physical significance, at all. Well since we know you from synergio post, most of as agreed that you do not have a clue other than the constant conterdiction on subjects you do not know nothing about. I may be wrong but since my statements are backed up by experimentation than I just claiming the results. My argument is valid in the fact that the reg. tet. is build by the longest of lines (edges) where the cube on the contrary is made up by the shortest of lines. I know this is totally new to you, but that is exactly where my argument can not be conterdicted by a experiment but only by a educated fancy talk like yours. Try again Heechan; of course, > this is the central *bete noir* of the Greeks that > Bucky attacks, and > all due honorary doctorates must be applied to him > (see _My Posthumous Scenario for You_ .-) > give it another go, Zube! > > --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): > Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... > So does Usama's MacJihad wish a 100-year War, > for a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" > "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of > England & Zbiggy > http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" > ch.) > > http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/plates.html > > http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months > FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:10:12 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: size MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank, Is this what you are looking for? http://buckminster.info/Ideas/03-TetNatureQuark.htm -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "frank zubek" Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 3:35 PM Subject: size > Hello to all; > > I'm new to this list but been swapping ideas with > synergio guys for some time now. > I'm working on a cube dissection "Elusive cube" check > the web site please I would appreciate your comments. > http://www.clowder.net/zubek/zubek.html > > This particular set is unique in several aspects but > most importantly it lead me to a blind ally and have > not been able to get out. > > There are few things which can not be counterdicted > yet obviously they are also not accepted by the > scientific or mathematical community. I'm talking of > relative size of individual shapes where by my > experiment and also a mathematical prove there must be > a shape which is the absolutely smallest of all shapes > > If circle is the largest of all shapes in flat > geometry > than the triangle is the smallest one. Circle is a > whole shape triangle is only a half shape where the > formula clearly suggest that base time height divided > by two. In a solid the sphere is the largest the tet. > is the smallest. The tet. is exactly only a 1/3 shape > where again the formula suggest that base time height > divided by three. > > So by this general grouping i also can say that the > largest of fractional shapes with one common vertex is > a cone having the same formula but because it's base > is a circle it becomes the largest one. There should > not be any problem with the statements above but the > question arises, is there a shape which is the > smallest one. Well sure we all know that the reg. tet. > is the smallest symmetrical shape but i have found a > mite which has to be the smallest of all irregular > shapes and this shape is 1/8 of a octahedron (octane). > > I have analyzed Fuller dissection of a 1/4 reg. tet. > dissection and i was told that Fuller as others always > followed nature but it seams conterdictory to his > quanta modules the way he derived them. Since nature > always follows one principle, which is to achieve the > most for the least expenditure of effort it is hard to > accept that in that particular dissections he used > natural intuition. He divided the reg. tet. in to 24 > pieces it toke six cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve > identity for six shapes where it toke me only three > cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve identity arriving > at four shapes. These shapes are not same in > appearance but identical in volumes. Q- mods are also > not identical since they are A-B which is left and > right handedness. > > I have set up this following problem to demonstrate > that Q-T-S or any module is larger than the 1/8 > octahedron (octane). I know it sounds not true where > it takes 72 mods to build a two freq. cube and my set > contains 44 shapes but to me it is nothing more as > that he divided the reg. tet. in to smaller units than > have i. in which it can be divided us much one wishes > to. > > But let build a wall and let this wall be build by the > smallest of bricks possible and let no one brick > having the shortest edge to be under one unit length. > and at this point no matter how hard i try it is > always apparent that the 1/8 oct. always becomes to be > the smallest brick possible. > > If lets say you pick a Q- mod.it would take 9 of them > for a first order cube. If the Q- mod. shortest leg be > one unit in length than that Q mod will be larger than > a 1/8 oct. in surface area and the final brick > (cube)will be larger also. If you make the cube build > by Q-mod.to have its edge of one unit length than the > individual Q- mod. in that cube will have its edge > shorter than one unit so it would not qualify to the > above restriction. So either way this problem points > out that actually there is no other shape which can be > smaller than 1/8 octahedron. The only smaller shape > and there is infinite amount of them is the 1/8 oct. > distorted in to a very pointy three sided pyramid or a > very shallow pyramid where none of these would be > capable to build any wall. > Please lets realize one very crucial fact which > apparently was missed by Mr. Fuller since i was not > able to depict that from his synergetic volume 1 nor 2 > > and that is that the reg. tet. is made up by the > longest of lines where there are no longer lines with > in across or anywhere other than the lanes making it > up. This is the only shape which we call the smallest > symmetrical shape made up by the longest of lines. > Cube on the other hand is a shape which is made up by > the shortest of lines where all other lines are longer > like the hypotenuse of it's face and the diagonal > across the solid. Is there anything wrong with this > analogy? > > regards frank > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:26:56 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Spatial relations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, Thanks for telling us about this Bucky-related article. I will add it to my Bucky Bibliography: http://buckminster.info/Biblio/1-Bibliography-TOC.htm -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Taylor" Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 11:06 AM Subject: Spatial relations > Guardian article today discusses Fuller: > > Spatial relations > > The science of morphing has created a resurgence of geometry-led > architecture... > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/online/science/story/0,12450,922353,00.html > > Paul Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:41:08 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: dome? Comments: To: Gabriel Sroka Comments: cc: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gabriel, The only info I have is the following: In the back of the Summer 1989 issue of DOME magazine there is a listing = for an A. C. Wood as an engineer, information provider, owner, & = provider of plans with the phone # 1-714-897-0984 -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gabriel Sroka=20 To: joe_s_moore@hotmail.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: dome? Hey Joe,=20 I drove by 6882 Shannon Dr., Huntington Beach yesterday (it's 15 = minutes from work) and there was no obvious dome there. I found the = address on:=20 http://www.buckminster.info/Index/Domes-California.htm=20 did i miss something? is it a backyard dome?=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:41:29 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Subject: Equal central angle conjecture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed go, Fischstichk! From: Dick Fischbeck (dick_fischbeck@yahoo.com) This is the only article in this thread View: Original FormatNewsgroups: sci.math Date: 2003-03-23 06:27:18 PST Here is a link regarding asymmetric geodesic structures. RanDome is a pat. pending design for constructing geodesic structures from identical vertex elements. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/RanDome/ Dick Fischbeck --Dec.2000 'WAND' Chairman Paul O'Neill, reelected to Board. Newsish? http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/rr.12.00/ http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 17:51:15 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: dome? Comments: To: Gabriel Sroka Comments: cc: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gabriel, I didn't know about the 3-dome cluster. Can you give us more details = such as type of use, diameter(s), year built, manufacturer, etc? -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gabriel Sroka=20 To: joe_s_moore@hotmail.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:01 PM Subject: dome? Hey Joe,=20 the 3 dome-cluster at 5865 E Spring St in Long Beach, CA is almost = visible on Mapquest's Aerial Photo (in real life, they're leaky and = moldy)=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:54:20 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Subject: Equal central angle conjecture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed you are relying upon *argumentarium ad hominemania*, again? your statements are both poorly-stated & quite well-known: the tetrahedron has the largest surface-to-volume ratio of the regular polyhedra, and the icosahedron has the smallest; of course, hte hexahedron (or "qyoob") is in betweenish, and it also is "less efficient" than the regular dodecahedron, as can be easily shown by the nesting of tetrah. in hexah. in dodecah. -- QED, Zube! Joe's diagram is just perfect, for Bucky's "mite," which is different from your usage of the term -- an octant of an octahedron? http://buckminster.info/Ideas/03-TetNatureQuark.htm thus quoth: My argument is valid in the fact that the reg. tet. is build by the longest of lines (edges) where the cube on the contrary is made up by the shortest of lines. I --Dec.2000 'WAND' Chairman Paul O'Neill, reelected to Board. Newsish? http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/rr.12.00/ http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 00:54:44 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed you are relying upon *argumentarium ad hominemania*, again? your statements are both poorly-stated & quite well-known: the tetrahedron has the largest surface-to-volume ratio of the regular polyhedra, and the icosahedron has the smallest; of course, hte hexahedron (or "qyoob") is in betweenish, and it also is "less efficient" than the regular dodecahedron, as can be easily shown by the nesting of tetrah. in hexah. in dodecah. -- QED, Zube! Joe's diagram is just perfect, for Bucky's "mite," which is different from your usage of the term -- an octant of an octahedron? http://buckminster.info/Ideas/03-TetNatureQuark.htm thus quoth: My argument is valid in the fact that the reg. tet. is build by the longest of lines (edges) where the cube on the contrary is made up by the shortest of lines. I --Dec.2000 'WAND' Chairman Paul O'Neill, reelected to Board. Newsish? http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/rr.12.00/ http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 18:18:54 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Bucky Ball Toy Comments: To: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bucky Ball toss/chew toy for dogs (& kids?) at PetsMart: http://www.petsmart.com/dog/shopping/toys/toss%5F%5F%5Fretrieve/products/= product%5F25030.shtml -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 18:31:07 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Status-Vietnam MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The state power company, Electricity of Vietnam (EVN), is working on a = plan to develop a national electricity grid by 2020, patching together = serveral regional grids." "A North-South power cable transmits electricity from Vietnam's largest = generator, the Hoa Binh hydropower plant in the north, to large = population centers in the south, linking the country into one = electricity grid. The cable has helped to alleviate an electricity = shortage in Ho Chi Minh City. Plans are underway to build an underground = electric cable, an above-ground cable, and a transformer station in Tao = Dan (in the Ho Chi Minh City area). Construction began in mid-2000 and = is to finish in 2003. The $56 million project is being funded by the = World Bank. The World Bank also is funding a $201 million project to = extend distribution infrastructure into rural areas currently without = electricity. The government currently is considering building more = cables, including a 500-KV power line from Pleiku to Danang city. If = built, the power line would be 300 km (188 miles) long and cost an = estimated $130 million. EVN submitted a project feasibility study to the = government in January 2003, which is under review." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/vietnam.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 18:36:40 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electricity Grid Status-Nigeria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Currently, only 10% of rural households and approximately 40% of = Nigeria's total population have access to electricity. NEPA plans to = boost this share to 85% by 2010. NEPA's plan would call for an = additional 15,000 kilometers (9,000 miles) of transmission lines, 16 new = power plants, and new distribution and marketing facilities. The = government awarded contracts for three 335-MW gas-fired plants, valued = at $1.1 billion, in November 2002. China's CMEC will build the facility = at Okitipupa in Ondo State. A second plant, to be built Chinese firm, = SEPCO, will be located at Papalanto in Ogun State. Seimens will build = the plant at Ajaokuta in Kogi state. The government also is expanding = its rural electrification program. The government has begun 1,400 rural = electrification projects, and has awarded 410 new contracts." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/nigeria.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:45:12 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: <20030327213801.53736.qmail@web80409.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit When you say the square is built with the smallest lines, I can't help but wonder where nature uses squares at all. Since in nature (universe) there are no straight lines or flat planes, long lines or short ones...isn't it odd to even be thinking about squares when they only exist in a xyz mapping system, and our (mankind's) physical constructs of them are flawed at best... I guess what I'm trying to say is why are we talking about things that only exist in our minds and not in nature? I like where you're going with this though... > From: frank zubek > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:38:01 -0800 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: size > > --- Leifur Thor wrote: >> Frank I have two questions for you- >> >> Are you saying that the cube has more space than a >> tetrahedron, which is >> does, > > Yes cube does have more space but on the contrary it > is build by the smallest of lines and that is where > the arguments of the smallest building block prevails. > > though it has little in way of structure. >> >> And are you saying that the cone is a superior >> structure over a tetrahedron? > > I do not think that any structure is superior over the > other it is usually up to nature to select the best to > a suited condition. I only saying that the reg. tet. > is made up by the longest of lines, where you may > think of the oficiency of a structure surface to > volume ratio and the reg. tet. is the best for that > but I'm not talking of efficiency rather of the size > of a individual shape. Cone is only larger it encloses > the most volume. If a base of a cone can inscribe a > base of a tet. and they are the same height than the > cone is the largest one. > > >> Thanks >> >>> From: frank zubek >>> Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster >> Fuller's works >>> >>> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic >>> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:35:28 -0800 >>> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: size >>> >>> Hello to all; >>> >>> I'm new to this list but been swapping ideas with >>> synergio guys for some time now. >>> I'm working on a cube dissection "Elusive cube" >> check >>> the web site please I would appreciate your >> comments. >>> http://www.clowder.net/zubek/zubek.html >>> >>> This particular set is unique in several aspects >> but >>> most importantly it lead me to a blind ally and >> have >>> not been able to get out. >>> >>> There are few things which can not be >> counterdicted >>> yet obviously they are also not accepted by the >>> scientific or mathematical community. I'm talking >> of >>> relative size of individual shapes where by my >>> experiment and also a mathematical prove there >> must be >>> a shape which is the absolutely smallest of all >> shapes >>> >>> If circle is the largest of all shapes in flat >>> geometry >>> than the triangle is the smallest one. Circle is a >>> whole shape triangle is only a half shape where >> the >>> formula clearly suggest that base time height >> divided >>> by two. In a solid the sphere is the largest the >> tet. >>> is the smallest. The tet. is exactly only a 1/3 >> shape >>> where again the formula suggest that base time >> height >>> divided by three. >>> >>> So by this general grouping i also can say that >> the >>> largest of fractional shapes with one common >> vertex is >>> a cone having the same formula but because it's >> base >>> is a circle it becomes the largest one. There >> should >>> not be any problem with the statements above but >> the >>> question arises, is there a shape which is the >>> smallest one. Well sure we all know that the reg. >> tet. >>> is the smallest symmetrical shape but i have found >> a >>> mite which has to be the smallest of all irregular >>> shapes and this shape is 1/8 of a octahedron >> (octane). >>> >>> I have analyzed Fuller dissection of a 1/4 reg. >> tet. >>> dissection and i was told that Fuller as others >> always >>> followed nature but it seams conterdictory to his >>> quanta modules the way he derived them. Since >> nature >>> always follows one principle, which is to achieve >> the >>> most for the least expenditure of effort it is >> hard to >>> accept that in that particular dissections he used >>> natural intuition. He divided the reg. tet. in to >> 24 >>> pieces it toke six cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to >> achieve >>> identity for six shapes where it toke me only >> three >>> cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve identity >> arriving >>> at four shapes. These shapes are not same in >>> appearance but identical in volumes. Q- mods are >> also >>> not identical since they are A-B which is left and >>> right handedness. >>> >>> I have set up this following problem to >> demonstrate >>> that Q-T-S or any module is larger than the 1/8 >>> octahedron (octane). I know it sounds not true >> where >>> it takes 72 mods to build a two freq. cube and my >> set >>> contains 44 shapes but to me it is nothing more as >>> that he divided the reg. tet. in to smaller units >> than >>> have i. in which it can be divided us much one >> wishes >>> to. >>> >>> But let build a wall and let this wall be build by >> the >>> smallest of bricks possible and let no one brick >>> having the shortest edge to be under one unit >> length. >>> and at this point no matter how hard i try it is >>> always apparent that the 1/8 oct. always becomes >> to be >>> the smallest brick possible. >>> >>> If lets say you pick a Q- mod.it would take 9 of >> them >>> for a first order cube. If the Q- mod. shortest >> leg be >>> one unit in length than that Q mod will be larger >> than >>> a 1/8 oct. in surface area and the final brick >>> (cube)will be larger also. If you make the cube >> build >>> by Q-mod.to have its edge of one unit length than >> the >>> individual Q- mod. in that cube will have its edge >>> shorter than one unit so it would not qualify to >> the >>> above restriction. So either way this problem >> points >>> out that actually there is no other shape which >> can be >>> smaller than 1/8 octahedron. The only smaller >> shape >>> and there is infinite amount of them is the 1/8 >> oct. >>> distorted in to a very pointy three sided pyramid >> or a >>> very shallow pyramid where none of these would be >>> capable to build any wall. >>> Please lets realize one very crucial fact which >>> apparently was missed by Mr. Fuller since i was >> not >>> able to depict that from his synergetic volume 1 >> nor 2 >>> >>> and that is that the reg. tet. is made up by the >>> longest of lines where there are no longer lines >> with >>> in across or anywhere other than the lanes making >> it >>> up. This is the only shape which we call the >> smallest >>> symmetrical shape made up by the longest of lines. >>> Cube on the other hand is a shape which is made up >> by >>> the shortest of lines where all other lines are >> longer >>> like the hypotenuse of it's face and the diagonal >>> across the solid. Is there anything wrong with >> this >>> analogy? >>> >>> regards frank >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> Do you Yahoo!? >>> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, >> live on your desktop! >>> http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:18:27 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerardo Garcia Subject: Re: size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Leifur Thor >Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > >To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: size >Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:45:12 -0800 >...isn't it >odd to even be thinking about squares when they only exist in a xyz mapping >system, and our (mankind's) physical constructs of them are flawed at >best... > >I guess what I'm trying to say is why are we talking about things that only >exist in our minds and not in nature? > maybe supernatural is natural, maybe our mind is natural (but then we had to accept that the physical world has a mind) and maybe we keep talking about this things because we are not tired enough.... Quincy is not tired yet of talking about today's empire, but has not even said a word about the Spanish empire (too tiring to talk about something like that) and I am still waiting for the devices that promise absolute freedom of movement (no pollution, no earth surface damages) and of behavior (no damages to other people: nothing beginnig with an F or ending in a HAWK). With those devices surely we would know rapidly what (and who)is what we really want: is it the Argentinian? the Spaniard? as for 1997, in the internet, content was not king, e-mailing was king. It sounded to me Teilhardian (T. de Chardin): "the convergence" independent of content (or device?). Gerardo García Tampico de Henares ps. where is Francho? _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:36:11 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Round Subject: Electric Grid Status - In General MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A question about regional versus global grids... As we've seen in parts of the US recently, when a regional station goes down, there is more strain on the grid, and other stations start to go down as well ... an "electrical cascading event", if you will. In this day of terrorism, might this make regional grids more popular than a global grid? Taking this to the extreme, might this "vulnerability" be reason to push not for globalization, but rather personalization, of power, energy, and fuel? Fuel-cells in the basement? Michael Round ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 06:38:17 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: frank zubek Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Joe S Moore wrote: > Frank, > > Is this what you are looking for? > http://buckminster.info/Ideas/03-TetNatureQuark.htm Hi Joe. Thanks for that info. Fuller is talking about a mite in general term, where i do talking about a particular mite which can not be reduced any further this is not a general term rather a very precise indication that there is a shape a mite which is the absolutelly the smallest of all shapes in existance. That's why, when we build the wall by the smallest of bricks possible one would realize that there is no smaller brick in existance. frank > -------------------------------------------- > Joe S Moore > joe_s_moore@hotmail.com > http://buckminster.info > ------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "frank zubek" > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > To: > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 3:35 PM > Subject: size > > > > Hello to all; > > > > I'm new to this list but been swapping ideas with > > synergio guys for some time now. > > I'm working on a cube dissection "Elusive cube" > check > > the web site please I would appreciate your > comments. > > http://www.clowder.net/zubek/zubek.html > > > > This particular set is unique in several aspects > but > > most importantly it lead me to a blind ally and > have > > not been able to get out. > > > > There are few things which can not be > counterdicted > > yet obviously they are also not accepted by the > > scientific or mathematical community. I'm talking > of > > relative size of individual shapes where by my > > experiment and also a mathematical prove there > must be > > a shape which is the absolutely smallest of all > shapes > > > > If circle is the largest of all shapes in flat > > geometry > > than the triangle is the smallest one. Circle is a > > whole shape triangle is only a half shape where > the > > formula clearly suggest that base time height > divided > > by two. In a solid the sphere is the largest the > tet. > > is the smallest. The tet. is exactly only a 1/3 > shape > > where again the formula suggest that base time > height > > divided by three. > > > > So by this general grouping i also can say that > the > > largest of fractional shapes with one common > vertex is > > a cone having the same formula but because it's > base > > is a circle it becomes the largest one. There > should > > not be any problem with the statements above but > the > > question arises, is there a shape which is the > > smallest one. Well sure we all know that the reg. > tet. > > is the smallest symmetrical shape but i have found > a > > mite which has to be the smallest of all irregular > > shapes and this shape is 1/8 of a octahedron > (octane). > > > > I have analyzed Fuller dissection of a 1/4 reg. > tet. > > dissection and i was told that Fuller as others > always > > followed nature but it seams conterdictory to his > > quanta modules the way he derived them. Since > nature > > always follows one principle, which is to achieve > the > > most for the least expenditure of effort it is > hard to > > accept that in that particular dissections he used > > natural intuition. He divided the reg. tet. in to > 24 > > pieces it toke six cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to > achieve > > identity for six shapes where it toke me only > three > > cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve identity > arriving > > at four shapes. These shapes are not same in > > appearance but identical in volumes. Q- mods are > also > > not identical since they are A-B which is left and > > right handedness. > > > > I have set up this following problem to > demonstrate > > that Q-T-S or any module is larger than the 1/8 > > octahedron (octane). I know it sounds not true > where > > it takes 72 mods to build a two freq. cube and my > set > > contains 44 shapes but to me it is nothing more as > > that he divided the reg. tet. in to smaller units > than > > have i. in which it can be divided us much one > wishes > > to. > > > > But let build a wall and let this wall be build by > the > > smallest of bricks possible and let no one brick > > having the shortest edge to be under one unit > length. > > and at this point no matter how hard i try it is > > always apparent that the 1/8 oct. always becomes > to be > > the smallest brick possible. > > > > If lets say you pick a Q- mod.it would take 9 of > them > > for a first order cube. If the Q- mod. shortest > leg be > > one unit in length than that Q mod will be larger > than > > a 1/8 oct. in surface area and the final brick > > (cube)will be larger also. If you make the cube > build > > by Q-mod.to have its edge of one unit length than > the > > individual Q- mod. in that cube will have its edge > > shorter than one unit so it would not qualify to > the > > above restriction. So either way this problem > points > > out that actually there is no other shape which > can be > > smaller than 1/8 octahedron. The only smaller > shape > > and there is infinite amount of them is the 1/8 > oct. > > distorted in to a very pointy three sided pyramid > or a > > very shallow pyramid where none of these would be > > capable to build any wall. > > Please lets realize one very crucial fact which > > apparently was missed by Mr. Fuller since i was > not > > able to depict that from his synergetic volume 1 > nor 2 > > > > and that is that the reg. tet. is made up by the > > longest of lines where there are no longer lines > with > > in across or anywhere other than the lanes making > it > > up. This is the only shape which we call the > smallest > > symmetrical shape made up by the longest of lines. > > Cube on the other hand is a shape which is made up > by > > the shortest of lines where all other lines are > longer > > like the hypotenuse of it's face and the diagonal > > across the solid. Is there anything wrong with > this > > analogy? > > > > regards frank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, > live on your desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 07:10:02 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: frank zubek Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Leifur Thor wrote: > When you say the square is built with the smallest > lines, I can't help but > wonder where nature uses squares at all. Since in > nature (universe) there > are no straight lines or flat planes, long lines or > short ones...isn't it > odd to even be thinking about squares when they only > exist in a xyz mapping > system, and our (mankind's) physical constructs of > them are flawed at > best... All space fillers, chemical bounding, crystalography, quanta moduals (operating in a realms of atoms and sub. atomic particles), structural systems,are all conveid in a form of polyhedras so it is here where we are using strait lines. Space may be curved and gravitron perhaps as a granuals of gravity it self may be structured by particles which in deed going to be the smallest individual block of that fabric. These individual granuals going or have to have strait lines in them building or forming a curve. I have a prove for this. If I remove the largest corners from a cube I be left with a reg. tet. than if I remove its corners I get a octahedron if i remove it's corners(vertexis) I end up with a cubotahedron and if we continue in this process one may end up with a sphere consist of all equilateral triangles all over it's surface. The general conclussion is that more one cuts the larger the leftover gets in relative sence and the final solid will be a sphere. If I do this to a mite least the few dissections i have done they produced a very peculiar outcome and that was that all consecutive cuts of a mite eventualy will and up with only one and the same mite i have started with at the begining. No oter divission is therefore necessary since it does not produces any new shape. The final shape after all these dissection apears to be the 1/8 octahedron where by disecting it will again produce a 1/8 octahedron as the end divission. Fuller stop where he arrived at all identical shapes I stoped way deeper where no new shapes could be produced. frank > I guess what I'm trying to say is why are we talking > about things that only > exist in our minds and not in nature? > > I like where you're going with this though... > > > From: frank zubek > > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster > Fuller's works > > > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 13:38:01 -0800 > > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: size > > > > --- Leifur Thor wrote: > >> Frank I have two questions for you- > >> > >> Are you saying that the cube has more space than > a > >> tetrahedron, which is > >> does, > > > > Yes cube does have more space but on the contrary > it > > is build by the smallest of lines and that is > where > > the arguments of the smallest building block > prevails. > > > > though it has little in way of structure. > >> > >> And are you saying that the cone is a superior > >> structure over a tetrahedron? > > > > I do not think that any structure is superior over > the > > other it is usually up to nature to select the > best to > > a suited condition. I only saying that the reg. > tet. > > is made up by the longest of lines, where you may > > think of the oficiency of a structure surface to > > volume ratio and the reg. tet. is the best for > that > > but I'm not talking of efficiency rather of the > size > > of a individual shape. Cone is only larger it > encloses > > the most volume. If a base of a cone can inscribe > a > > base of a tet. and they are the same height than > the > > cone is the largest one. > > > > > >> Thanks > >> > >>> From: frank zubek > >>> Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster > >> Fuller's works > >>> > >>> Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > >>> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 14:35:28 -0800 > >>> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: size > >>> > >>> Hello to all; > >>> > >>> I'm new to this list but been swapping ideas > with > >>> synergio guys for some time now. > >>> I'm working on a cube dissection "Elusive cube" > >> check > >>> the web site please I would appreciate your > >> comments. > >>> http://www.clowder.net/zubek/zubek.html > >>> > >>> This particular set is unique in several aspects > >> but > >>> most importantly it lead me to a blind ally and > >> have > >>> not been able to get out. > >>> > >>> There are few things which can not be > >> counterdicted > >>> yet obviously they are also not accepted by the > >>> scientific or mathematical community. I'm > talking > >> of > >>> relative size of individual shapes where by my > >>> experiment and also a mathematical prove there > >> must be > >>> a shape which is the absolutely smallest of all > >> shapes > >>> > >>> If circle is the largest of all shapes in flat > >>> geometry > >>> than the triangle is the smallest one. Circle is > a > >>> whole shape triangle is only a half shape where > >> the > >>> formula clearly suggest that base time height > >> divided > >>> by two. In a solid the sphere is the largest the > >> tet. > >>> is the smallest. The tet. is exactly only a 1/3 > >> shape > >>> where again the formula suggest that base time > >> height > >>> divided by three. > >>> > >>> So by this general grouping i also can say that > >> the > >>> largest of fractional shapes with one common > >> vertex is > >>> a cone having the same formula but because it's > >> base > >>> is a circle it becomes the largest one. There > >> should > >>> not be any problem with the statements above but > >> the > >>> question arises, is there a shape which is the > >>> smallest one. Well sure we all know that the > reg. > >> tet. > >>> is the smallest symmetrical shape but i have > found > >> a > >>> mite which has to be the smallest of all > irregular > >>> shapes and this shape is 1/8 of a octahedron > >> (octane). > >>> > >>> I have analyzed Fuller dissection of a 1/4 reg. > >> tet. > >>> dissection and i was told that Fuller as others > >> always > >>> followed nature but it seams conterdictory to > his > >>> quanta modules the way he derived them. Since > >> nature > >>> always follows one principle, which is to > achieve > >> the > >>> most for the least expenditure of effort it is > >> hard to > >>> accept that in that particular dissections he > used > >>> natural intuition. He divided the reg. tet. in > to > >> 24 > >>> pieces it toke six cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to > >> achieve > >>> identity for six shapes where it toke me only > >> three > >>> cuts for a 1/4 reg. tet. to achieve identity > >> arriving > >>> at four shapes. These shapes are not same in > >>> appearance but identical in volumes. Q- mods are > >> also > >>> not identical since they are A-B which is left > and > >>> right handedness. > >>> > >>> I have set up this following problem to > >> demonstrate > >>> that Q-T-S or any module is larger than the 1/8 > >>> octahedron (octane). I know it sounds not true > >> where > >>> it takes 72 mods to build a two freq. cube and > my > >> set > >>> contains 44 shapes but to me it is nothing more > as > >>> that he divided the reg. tet. in to smaller > units > >> than > >>> have i. in which it can be divided us much one > >> wishes > >>> to. > >>> > >>> But let build a wall and let this wall be build > by > >> the > >>> smallest of bricks possible and let no one brick > >>> having the shortest edge to be under one unit > >> length. > >>> and at this point no matter how hard i try it is > >>> always apparent that the 1/8 oct. always becomes > >> to be > >>> the smallest brick possible. > >>> > >>> If lets say you pick a Q- mod.it would take 9 of > >> them > >>> for a first order cube. If the Q- mod. shortest > >> leg be > >>> one unit in length than that Q mod will be > larger > >> than > >>> a 1/8 oct. in surface area and the final brick > >>> (cube)will be larger also. If you make the cube > >> build > >>> by Q-mod.to have its edge of one unit length > than > >> the > >>> individual Q- mod. in that cube will have its > edge > >>> shorter than one unit so it would not qualify to > >> the > >>> above restriction. So either way this problem > >> points > >>> out that actually there is no other shape which > >> can be > >>> smaller than 1/8 octahedron. The only smaller > >> shape > >>> and there is infinite amount of them is the 1/8 > >> oct. > >>> distorted in to a very pointy three sided > pyramid > >> or a > >>> very shallow pyramid where none of these would > be > >>> capable to build any wall. > >>> Please lets realize one very crucial fact which > >>> apparently was missed by Mr. Fuller since i was > >> not > >>> able to depict that from his synergetic volume 1 > >> nor 2 > >>> > >>> and that is that the reg. tet. is made up by the > >>> longest of lines where there are no longer lines > >> with > >>> in across or anywhere other than the lanes > making > >> it > >>> up. This is the only shape which we call the > >> smallest > >>> symmetrical shape made up by the longest of > lines. > >>> Cube on the other hand is a shape which is made > up > >> by > >>> the shortest of lines where all other lines are > >> longer > >>> like the hypotenuse of it's face and the > diagonal > >>> across the solid. Is there anything wrong with > >> this > >>> analogy? > >>> > >>> regards frank > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > __________________________________________________ > >>> Do you Yahoo!? > >>> Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, > >> live on your desktop! > >>> http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, > live on your desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 07:24:15 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: frank zubek Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Gerardo Garcia wrote: > >From: Leifur Thor > >Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster > Fuller's works > > > >To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: size > >Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:45:12 -0800 > > > >...isn't it > >odd to even be thinking about squares when they > only exist in a xyz mapping > >system, and our (mankind's) physical constructs of > them are flawed at > >best... > > > >I guess what I'm trying to say is why are we > talking about things that only > >exist in our minds and not in nature? > > > > maybe supernatural is natural, maybe our mind is > natural (but then we had to > accept that the physical world has a mind) Well yes it does :Evrything is motivated to achieve the most for the least expenditure of effort" The angle of a sand pile is always the same "angle of repese" That is because nature fells confortable and most stable at that angle for that sand pile. Soap bubbles are sphere where they can capture the most air in that container. Water falls downvard because it is eassier for it to get where it is going. I could go on and on to show that yes nature always falows the efficiency principle. > and maybe we keep talking about this things because > we are not tired > enough.... Quincy is not tired yet of talking about > today's empire, but has > not even said a word about the Spanish empire (too > tiring to talk about > something like that) > > and I am still waiting for the devices that promise > absolute freedom of > movement (no pollution, no earth surface damages) > and of behavior (no > damages to other people: nothing beginnig with an F > or ending in a HAWK). > With those devices surely we would know rapidly what > (and who)is what we > really want: is it the Argentinian? the Spaniard? > > as for 1997, in the internet, content was not king, > e-mailing was king. It > sounded to me Teilhardian (T. de Chardin): "the > convergence" independent of > content (or device?). > > Gerardo García > Tampico de Henares > > ps. where is Francho? > > _________________________________________________________________ > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:00:17 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: frank zubek Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Quincy Quincy Quincy wrote: > you are relying upon *argumentarium ad hominemania*, > again? > > your statements are both poorly-stated & quite > well-known: They may be poorly stated since English is my third and last language i have learned. But I'm not about fancy talk, and carefully selected philosophical jargon. Many scientists ,mathematitians, are not good at this languache but it is the idea, the achievements they arrived at with out all that fancy talk. I will tell you that you as mast today scientists do not produce nothing extraordenirary other than doing the job which is put front of them and the only way they can hide they inaficiency is to use some very fancy elaborated carafully selected words and it appears that you are definitelly one of these. Beside wahat Joe Moore is showing me is that he as I and Fuller talking about mites but I am talking about a particular *mite* 1/8 octahedron. Beside why dont you try to build a wall by the smallest of bricks and if you finde a brick whose shortest side can not be less than one unit lenth than let me know aboud it. Untill than only thing you have left is only the fancy meaningless talk. frank > the tetrahedron has the largest surface-to-volume > ratio > of the regular polyhedra, and the icosahedron has > the smallest; > of course, hte hexahedron (or "qyoob") is in > betweenish, and > it also is "less efficient" than the regular > dodecahedron, > as can be easily shown by the nesting > of tetrah. in hexah. in dodecah. -- QED, Zube! The problem in above statement is that once again you are talking of individual shapes as a part of a whole where I'm talking of shapes as individuals independent from the whole they were derived from. If your familly is consist of 8 members for example and mine is consist of only four members does this makes me twise is larger than you? Just think about it before you reject something you not fully comprehand. > Joe's diagram is just perfect, for Bucky's "mite," > which is different from your usage of the term > -- an octant of an octahedron? > > http://buckminster.info/Ideas/03-TetNatureQuark.htm > > thus quoth: > My argument is valid in the fact that the reg. tet. > is > build by the longest of lines (edges) where the cube > on the contrary is made up by the shortest of lines. > I > > --Dec.2000 'WAND' Chairman Paul O'Neill, reelected > to Board. Newsish? > http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/rr.12.00/ > http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months > FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:14:43 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: Electric Grid Status - In General In-Reply-To: <37.364ee648.2bb5a9cb@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit You are definitely right on that one Michael. But to do so would eliminate the meter between the people and the government, which no government would support. Having said that though it's only a matter of time before through ephemeralization that comes about, and may only be ten years or so away from happening. > From: Michael Round > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 08:36:11 EST > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Electric Grid Status - In General > > A question about regional versus global grids... > > As we've seen in parts of the US recently, when a regional station goes down, > there is more strain on the grid, and other stations start to go down as well > ... an "electrical cascading event", if you will. > > In this day of terrorism, might this make regional grids more popular than a > global grid? > > Taking this to the extreme, might this "vulnerability" be reason to push not > for globalization, but rather personalization, of power, energy, and fuel? > Fuel-cells in the basement? > > Michael Round ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 09:18:28 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Lane Subject: Re: Electric Grid Status - In General In-Reply-To: <37.364ee648.2bb5a9cb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v551) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Friday, March 28, 2003, at 05:36 AM, Michael Round wrote: > A question about regional versus global grids... > > reason to push not > for globalization, but rather personalization, of power, energy, and > fuel? > Fuel-cells in the basement? Good question, and I've been wondering similarly. The assumption that a global energy grid is a necessary development rests on some assumptions that were relevant when that proposal was first floated, but might be worth re-visiting now, I think. Riding a bicycle, rather than depending on cars, for example, obviates the question of where our oil comes from, or how efficient the supply "pipeline" is, for example. Perhaps the best approach would be a mix of source-diversification, AND efficient, global distribution options. Like if I install solar, wind, and micro hydro on my houseboat, and generate way more than I need, maybe I should stay hooked up to the grid to help reduce society's dependence on other energy sources. On another note, net metering laws would keep me from paying for any grid juice, but do not require PGE to buy my electricity from me, do they? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 11:35:34 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: blair wolfram Subject: Re: Electric Grid Status - In General MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It may be a state law, but the local Minnesota utilities are required to buy any independant electric generation, and up to a 40 KW output they are required to pay retail prices for it. Blair David Lane wrote: > On Friday, March 28, 2003, at 05:36 AM, Michael Round wrote: > >> A question about regional versus global grids... >> >> reason to push not >> for globalization, but rather personalization, of power, energy, and >> fuel? >> Fuel-cells in the basement? > > > Good question, and I've been wondering similarly. The assumption that > a global energy grid is a necessary development rests on some > assumptions that were relevant when that proposal was first floated, > but might be worth re-visiting now, I think. > > Riding a bicycle, rather than depending on cars, for example, obviates > the question of where our oil comes from, or how efficient the supply > "pipeline" is, for example. > > Perhaps the best approach would be a mix of source-diversification, AND > efficient, global distribution options. Like if I install solar, wind, > and micro hydro on my houseboat, and generate way more than I need, > maybe I should stay hooked up to the grid to help reduce society's > dependence on other energy sources. > > On another note, net metering laws would keep me from paying for any > grid juice, but do not require PGE to buy my electricity from me, do > they? > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 22:59:30 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Electric Grid Status - In General Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I haven't seen any talk of the effects of electromagnetic storms on the "great-circle patterns," althouhg I know they are of concern across large countries (Canada e.g.). thus quoth: >Fuel-cells in the basement? Good question, and I've been wondering similarly. The assumption that a global energy grid is a necessary development rests on some assumptions that were relevant when that proposal was first floated, --Dec.2000 'WAND' Chairman Paul O'Neill, reelected to Board. Newsish? http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/rr.12.00/ http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 23:12:04 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed what Thor was saying is exactly correct, because these nice tetrahedra exist only in our minds; tetragona (sqwares) and trigona are part of these shapes, and as part of the "IVM," so, there shouldn't be much of a problem in using them. anyone who has spent any time with _S_, or even _Tetrascroll_, possibly, would know that your octahedron octant isn't the "LCD" of the octahedron (or hexasteron), that which is composed of an A- and a B-quanta module in Bucky's terminology. that's just the way it is in the big, wide world: dyscoveries are there to be repeated, anew. the fact that you repeat the cardinal sin of the Greeks, according to Bucky, with your anal retention of the hexahedron (octasteron or "qyoob"), should have tipped you off, a while ago. as with the octahedron, the hexahedron has a "LCD" that is composed of A- and B-mods (since it is "just" a tetrah. with 4 octah. octants slapped ontp it. (I don't recall, if you found this by yourself, but I'm not going to argue with you about it -- nyah, nyah, nyah. just to reiterate, your useage of "size," doesn't matter, although your constant resort to name-calling gives you a big, fat label! thus quoth: particular *mite* 1/8 octahedron. Beside why dont you try to build a wall by the smallest of bricks and if you finde a brick whose shortest side can not be less than one unit lenth than let me know aboud it. Untill than only thing you have left is only the fancy meaningless talk. --Dec.2000 'WAND' Chairman Paul O'Neill, reelected to Board. Newsish? http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/rr.12.00/ http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac --A church-school McCrusade (Blair's ideals?): Harry-the-Mad-Potter want's US to kill Iraqis?... For a 1000-year "anglo-american hegemony?" "HEY, JIMMY; LET'S US and SU FIGHT" -then-PM of England & Zbiggy http://www.tarpley.net/bush25.htm ("Thyroid Storm" ch.) http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergetics/plates/plates.html http://quincy4board.homestead.com/files/curriculum/Cosmo.PCX --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 23:19:11 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: size Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed the following begins with a sequence that can be found -- ad nauseum, as it were -- in _Synergetics_, but floats-off into a vague conjecture, with an end result that is, perhaps, not even wrong (considering that all of this was done in teh 19th cce, under the heading of "crystallography"). or, it's just your use of the English, and you can always post it in Hungarian & wave translator over to it (keep the ventilation going, strong, though .-) thus quoth: in them building or forming a curve. I have a prove for this. If I remove the largest corners from a cube I be left with a reg. tet. than if I remove its corners I get a octahedron if i remove it's corners(vertexis) I end up with a cubotahedron and if we continue in this process one may end up with a sphere consist of all equilateral triangles all over it's surface. The general conclussion is that more one cuts the larger the leftover gets in relative sence and the final solid will be a sphere. If I do this to a mite least the few dissections i have done they produced a very peculiar outcome and that was that all consecutive cuts of a mite eventualy will and up with only one and the same mite i have started with at the begining. No oter divission is therefore necessary since it does not produces any new shape. The final shape after all these dissection apears to be the 1/8 octahedron where by disecting it will again produce a 1/8 octahedron as the end divission. Fuller stop where he arrived at all identical shapes I stoped way deeper where no new shapes could be produced. --UN HYDROGEN (sic; Methanex (TM) reformanteurs) ECONOMIE?... La Troi Phases d'Exploitation de la Protocols des Grises de Kyoto: (FOSSILISATION [McCainanites?] (TM/sic))/ BORE/GUSH/NADIR "@" http://www.tarpley.net/aobook.htm. Http://www.tarpley.net/bushb.htm (content partiale, below): 17 -- L'ATTEMPTER de COUP D'ETAT, 3/30/81 23 -- Le FIN d'HISTOIRE 24 -- L'ORDEUR du MONDE NOUVEAU 25 -- THYROID STORK !?! _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:26:54 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Limbach, Karl" Subject: R. Buckminster Fuller DIMAXION Topographical Model MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The following is a description of an art work I have that has hung on a wall of my office in San Francisco since 1972. It is a three dimensional topographical model made under license from R. Buckminister Fuller on his Dimaxion Projection of the world. The model is made of 22 aluminum castings which together are slightly larger than 9 feet wide by 4 feet high. They carry the copyright notices of R. Buckminister Fuller 1954 and Architectural Models, Inc 1971. Photographs of the model are posted on http://reality.sculptors.com/~salsbury/model-images. I would appreciate it if anyone could give me any information about the "lost" copy of the model mentioned below which hung in the offices of Commerce Clearing House at their Quail Hill building in Terra Linda, California from 1971 to 1989. THE HISTORY OF THE DIMAXION TOPOGRAPHICAL MODEL OF THE WORLD R. Buckminster Fuller made a map in 1954 which he called the Dimaxion Projection of the world. He apparently did this in part to avoid the distortion of the Mercator projection which projects the spherical shape of the Earth onto a flat rectangle with the North at the top, the South at the bottom and the East and West at the right and left sides. The Mercator projection distorts the pole areas of the world making Greenland larger than Africa and the continent of Antarctica the full width of the map. Fuller made the Dimaxion Projection by drawing the shapes of the land masses of the Earth on the surface of a regular icosahedron. The icosahedron has twenty equilateral triangular faces in the form of a solid which can be inscribed in a sphere with twelve vertices where five faces meet and thirty edges where two triangles meet. Using the icosahedron reduces distortion to the difference between the surface of a triangular section of a sphere and the surface of a flat triangle. Fuller drew the land masses of the Earth on the icosahedron in a very special way where the North and South poles of the Earth are located neither at vertices of the icosahedron nor at the centers of triangular faces. The triangular faces of the icosahedron are "unfolded" (opening the edge between two of the triangles at each vertex where five triangles meet) onto a flat surface in a special way which makes all of the land masses appear to be continuous with the Arctic Ocean in the center, the Pacific Ocean on the top, the Atlantic Ocean on the bottom and the Indian Ocean on the right side. The continents of Antarctica and Australia are located at opposite sides of the map. Two of the twenty faces are subdivided to make a total of twenty two pieces. Leila Johnston and Virginia Green, the owners of Architectural Models, Inc. in San Francisco, knew Mr. Fuller and in the early 1970's they obtained a license under Mr. Fuller's copyright to make a three-dimensional model of the "Dimaxion Projection." To do this they added to Mr. Fuller's map the topological lines for the heights of the land masses and depths of the water bodies on the Earth. The depth data came from an un-copyrighted Russian atlas. Architectural Models then used the topographical lines on the map to carve a three dimensional solid for each of the twenty-two pieces that make up the whole model They did this with a topographical model making machine which they invented and patented in U. S. Patent # 3,137,209. The carved triangular solids were used to make twenty two molds for casting aluminum for the twenty two pieces of the model. The aluminum pieces are supported on a wall by nails which engage horizontal bars on the back of each piece. Two copies of the model were made of aluminum each slightly larger than nine feet wide and four feet high with the water areas colored blue. One copy was purchased by Commerce Clearing House to hang in its new offices in Terra Linda, California and the other was purchased by Karl Limbach, the patent attorney for Architectural Models in San Francisco. The CCH model was left in the Terra Linda building when CCH moved out in 1998 and may have been destroyed when the building was renovated for subsequent tenants. The carvings and molds for making the models were destroyed when the Architectural Models company was sold and moved to Oakland, California. Architectural Models also made and sold some thin plastic vacuum-formed copies of the pieces for the model, but none of these plastic copies have been found. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 18:34:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Octahedron Tower Plans That I Have Comments: To: dologardner@att.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don, Hans Meyer is currently on BFI's Board of Directors; see http://www.bfi.org/bios.htm You can probably contact him through them; see http://www.bfi.org/about_this_website.htm#h -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 7:38 PM Subject: Octahedron Tower Plans That I Have > Hi, > I have a set of plans for a 30ft Octahedron Tower by Windworks copyright 1970. > Buckminister Fuller financed this group and Hans Meyer, who is on your board > of directors, formed Windworks. I want to revise these plans and get them out > to the new group of people that are experimenting with low cost wind energy > (see otherpower.com). Do you have an email address for Hans Meyer? > Don Gardner > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:22:23 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Fw: domes Comments: To: "List, DomeHome" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Forward -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Joe S Moore=20 To: Gabriel Sroka=20 Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 7:17 PM Subject: Re: domes Gabriel, Thanks for the info; I'll be adding it to my website. I have reluctantly come to the same conclusions as you & your wife have = regarding currently available residential domes. I'm holding out for a = portable, self-contained, fire/rot/bug-proof, automated, etc, dome home = that costs no more than a luxury car. Unfortunately one probably won't = be available for at least the next 10-20 years. By then I'll be 80+, if = I'm still around. Maybe in my next lifetime. The shower & toilet both used to be in production but aren't now; see http://buckminster.info/Ideas/07-IcosHouseShowerScientific.htm http://buckminster.info/Ideas/07-IcosHouseToiletScientific.htm Your AirCar is almost available now, but probably will be a little = expensive at first; see http://www.moller.com/skycar/ The Rowing Needle is available for sale, but overpriced; see http://www.solwaygallery.com/Pages/rowing%20shell.html For a dome office buildings see http://buckminster.info/Index/Domes-O.htm and http://www.buckminster.info/Pics/ (scroll down to "Icos-Dome-Office- " = ) No dome-covered cities--yet http://buckminster.info/Index/Domes-C.htm (scroll down to "Cities") -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gabriel Sroka=20 To: Joe S Moore=20 Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 11:57 AM Subject: Re: domes I drove by the Dome Center (as it's called) last night on the way = home. Note from the picture at flowerdome.com that the large central = dome is 2 stories tall (i think the upstairs is a small office). Each = dome rests on a ~ 2' tall polygonal brick wall (foundation?). The = sandwich shop is called Roundhouse Submarine and has occupied the dome = since it was built in 1984. The chiropractic office used to be a video = store (but, now there is a Blockbuster Video across the street, boo big = corporations).=20 Gabriel Sroka=20 03/27/2003 05:34 PM=20 =20 To: "Joe S Moore" =20 cc: =20 Subject: Re: dome?Link=20 some...=20 one's a flower shop (search the yellow pages for Flower Dome or see=20 http://www.flowerdome.com/AboutUs.asp=20 ), one's a chiropractic office and one's a sandwich shop (if i = recall). the middle one is tallest, maybe 20-30' in height. the others a = little smaller. It looks like standard wood stud/drywall/shingle = construction. They're not connected to each other. They're on a corner = of a big intersection so they probably get a lot of drive-by traffic. I = walked into the flower shop out of curiousity once, and noticed the mold = on the drywall near the top of the dome, inside. I don't know any other = details.=20 Kinda ugly if you ask me. When my wife and I briefly considered = building a dome home a few years ago, we were both disappointed that = most look so much like conventional homes except with triangles instead = of rectangles and roundness instead of boxiness. They seemed to cost = about the same, don't use high-tech materials, may be harder to resell, = may be slightly more energy efficient, but harder to furnish, etc. I = don't think Bucky had this in mind, and I think these Bucky-phile dome = home builders failed him and his progressive ideas. Of course, I = understand building codes and such, but we figured if we couldn't build = a 21st century house based on 20th century design, then why bother?=20 And, where's my Dymaxion(TM) bathroom and car? These, too, are/were = high tech. I come home once a week to a house that reeks of bleach as my = wife fights the mold in our bathtub. My car only gets 23 mi/gal (how = many L/100 km is that?). I'd rather live in a round grain bin with = ovolving shelves and a suspended bookshelf, spend my weekends racing in = my non-tippable rowing needle (my wife was in crew), and fly to work = (see also "A Plane in Every Home" in=20 http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/pearse.html=20 ). Are there any dome office buildings? Dome-covered cities?=20 Am I rambling? As always, please remove my email address, if you can, = before posting to any LISTS.=20 Thanks.=20 "Joe S Moore" =20 03/27/2003 04:51 PM=20 =20 To: "Gabriel Sroka"=20 cc: "List, Geodesic" = , "List, DomeHome" = =20 Subject: Re: dome?=20 Gabriel,=20 =20 I didn't know about the 3-dome cluster. Can you give us more details = such as type of use, diameter(s), year built, manufacturer, etc?=20 =20 -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info -------------------------------------------=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gabriel Sroka To: joe_s_moore@hotmail.com=20 Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:01 PM=20 Subject: dome?=20 Hey Joe,=20 the 3 dome-cluster at 5865 E Spring St in Long Beach, CA is almost = visible on Mapquest's Aerial Photo (in real life, they're leaky and = moldy)=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:35:43 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Status-Afghanistan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Afghanistan's power grid has been severely damaged by years of war, and = only about 6% of its population currently has access to electricity. = Transmission lines from the Kajaki Dam in Helmand province near Kandahar = were hit by an airstike in November 2001, but were repaired in early = 2002. On several occasions since then, however, power to Kandahar has = been cut off by attacks on the transmission lines. Other operational = dams include the Dahla Dam in Kandahar province, the Breshna-Kot Dam in = Nangarhar province, which has a generating capacity of 11.5 MW, and the = 66-MW Mahipar dam which supplies Kabul.=20 Neighboring countries also supply electricity to some of Afghanistan's = border regions. Turkmenistan supplies electricity to much of = northwestern Afghanistan, including Mazar-i-Sharif and Herat. This = arrangement was affirmed in an agreement signed in August 2002 between = the Karzai government and Turkmenistan, continuing an earlier agreement = between the Taliban government and Turkmenistan. Uzbekistan also = supplies electricity to the northern area around Mazar-i-Sharif, = supplementing a small local gas-fired power plant. Uzbekistan resumed = its supply arrangement in August 2002, after having terminated supplies = of electricity in 1999 during the period of Taliban rule. Iran also = supplies electricity to Afghanistan, in some areas directly adjacent to = the Afghan-Iranian border in Herat, Farah, and Nimroz provinces. " Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:40:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Status-Algeria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "In May 2001, Sonatrach and Sonelgaz established a joint venture -- the = Algerian Energy Company (AEC) -- to export electricity. Among other = projects, AEC is examining the feasibility of establishing a = trans-Mediterranean power link to Italy, with the study expected to be = completed in July 2003. In December 2001, Sonelgaz signed a joint = venture agreement with Italian power grid manager GRTN on the = possibility of constructing an undersea power cable to export = electricity to Europe via Sardinia or Sicily. In November 2001, Sonelgaz = signed a similar deal with Spain's power group Red Electrica de Espana = to build an underwater power line between Algeria and Spain. Currently, = Algeria has two links to the Moroccan electricity grid and supplies over = 550 gigawatthours (GWh) of electricity to Morocco." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/algeria.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:45:10 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Status-Angola MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The government plans to create a national grid by linking the three = regional electricity grids and establishing linkages with neighboring = countries. This project, coupled with the power plant rehabilitation, = could provide the basis for Angola becoming a regional exporter of = electricity. Rehabilitation work on the Matala Dam (51 MW) was completed = in September 2001, and work on the Cambambe facility (130 MW) is = scheduled to be completed in 2002." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/angola.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:53:20 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Update-Argentina MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Argentina has electricity interconnections with Chile, Brazil, and = Uruguay. The InterAndes Transmission Line links an Argentine power = station to Chile's northern electric grid. A connection to Brazil has = been used more heavily since the onset of Brazil's drought related = electricity shortage in 2001. The Yacyreta hydroelectric dam is equipped with 20 turbines and has an = installed capacity of 3,200 MW. Argentina and co-owner Paraguay share = the electricity generated at Yacyreta evenly, with most of Paraguay's = electricity being exported to Argentina." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/argentna.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:58:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Update-Armenia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Iran and Armenia already have linked their electricity grids, allowing = for power sales in both directions driven by seasonal differences in = demand between the two countries. In summer, Armenia exports its power = to Iran and gets it back in winter. Armenia also supplies some of its = surplus seasonal electricity to Georgia. Closer ties with Iran could = give Armenia an additional source of electricity as Iran, Turkmenistan, = and Armenia explore whether their power grids can be linked. Armenia = could receive electricity from Turkmenistan via Iran's energy system at = less than the price of power produced by its own power stations. " Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caucasus.html#ARMENIA -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 20:04:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Update-Australia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Australia has five trading regions, all of which are interconnected, = but the NEM does not include the non-connected states of Tasmania, = Western Australia, or the Northern Territories. Tasmania is expected to = join when its electricity link to the mainland is completed in 2003." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/australi.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 20:11:43 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Update-Azerbaijan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "In order to supply electricity to all parts of the country, Azerbaijan = imports power from Russia, Turkey, Iran, and Georgia, and the country = participates in energy exchanges as well.=20 Electricity supplies to the Azerbaijani exclave of Nakhchivan have been = a recurring problem. Iran, which supplies nearly 60% of the exclave's = electricity needs, cut power supplies from October 2000 to February 2001 = until Azerbaijan paid the first installment on its $45 million debt for = supplies already delivered. In addition, Azerbaijan has run up a = multi-million dollar debt to Turkey for electricity supplied to = Nakhchivan. Azerbaijan is participating in an EU program to create a = unified energy system for Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Turkey, and in April = 2000, an agreement was signed to restore the power grids between = Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russia, and Armenia. Azerbaijan and Turkey agreed = that Azerbaijan would repay its debt by transmitting Russian and Azeri = electricity back to Turkey via Georgia. " Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/azerbjan.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:00:26 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerardo Garcia Subject: Re: Electric Grid Status - In General Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Quincy Quincy Quincy >Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > >To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Electric Grid Status - In General >Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 22:59:30 +0000 >>>Fuel-cells in the basement? Are fuel cells weapons of mass destruction (massive electric grid destruction) I am waiting for the report of the grid in Irak. Is Joe going strictly alphabetical? Gerado García _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 09:57:50 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leifur Thor Subject: Re: domes In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Joe, I and another person on this list are on it, and if it moves forward, and things go well, you'll only have to wait 10 years... > From: Joe S Moore > Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic > Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 19:22:23 -0700 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Fw: domes > > Forward > -------------------------------------------- > Joe S Moore > joe_s_moore@hotmail.com > http://buckminster.info > ------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe S Moore > To: Gabriel Sroka > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 7:17 PM > Subject: Re: domes > > > Gabriel, > > Thanks for the info; I'll be adding it to my website. > > I have reluctantly come to the same conclusions as you & your wife have > regarding currently available residential domes. I'm holding out for a > portable, self-contained, fire/rot/bug-proof, automated, etc, dome home that > costs no more than a luxury car. Unfortunately one probably won't be > available for at least the next 10-20 years. By then I'll be 80+, if I'm > still around. Maybe in my next lifetime. > > The shower & toilet both used to be in production but aren't now; see > http://buckminster.info/Ideas/07-IcosHouseShowerScientific.htm > http://buckminster.info/Ideas/07-IcosHouseToiletScientific.htm > > Your AirCar is almost available now, but probably will be a little expensive > at first; see > http://www.moller.com/skycar/ > > The Rowing Needle is available for sale, but overpriced; see > http://www.solwaygallery.com/Pages/rowing%20shell.html > > For a dome office buildings see > http://buckminster.info/Index/Domes-O.htm and > http://www.buckminster.info/Pics/ (scroll down to "Icos-Dome-Office- " ) > > No dome-covered cities--yet > http://buckminster.info/Index/Domes-C.htm (scroll down to "Cities") > > -------------------------------------------- > Joe S Moore > joe_s_moore@hotmail.com > http://buckminster.info > ------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gabriel Sroka > To: Joe S Moore > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2003 11:57 AM > Subject: Re: domes > > I drove by the Dome Center (as it's called) last night on the way home. Note > from the picture at flowerdome.com that the large central dome is 2 stories > tall (i think the upstairs is a small office). Each dome rests on a ~ 2' tall > polygonal brick wall (foundation?). The sandwich shop is called Roundhouse > Submarine and has occupied the dome since it was built in 1984. The > chiropractic office used to be a video store (but, now there is a Blockbuster > Video across the street, boo big corporations). > > Gabriel Sroka > 03/27/2003 05:34 PM > > > To: "Joe S Moore" > cc: > Subject: Re: dome?Link > > some... > one's a flower shop (search the yellow pages for Flower Dome or see > http://www.flowerdome.com/AboutUs.asp > ), one's a chiropractic office and one's a sandwich shop (if i recall). the > middle one is tallest, maybe 20-30' in height. the others a little smaller. It > looks like standard wood stud/drywall/shingle construction. They're not > connected to each other. They're on a corner of a big intersection so they > probably get a lot of drive-by traffic. I walked into the flower shop out of > curiousity once, and noticed the mold on the drywall near the top of the dome, > inside. I don't know any other details. > > Kinda ugly if you ask me. When my wife and I briefly considered building a > dome home a few years ago, we were both disappointed that most look so much > like conventional homes except with triangles instead of rectangles and > roundness instead of boxiness. They seemed to cost about the same, don't use > high-tech materials, may be harder to resell, may be slightly more energy > efficient, but harder to furnish, etc. I don't think Bucky had this in mind, > and I think these Bucky-phile dome home builders failed him and his > progressive ideas. Of course, I understand building codes and such, but we > figured if we couldn't build a 21st century house based on 20th century > design, then why bother? > > And, where's my Dymaxion(TM) bathroom and car? These, too, are/were high tech. > I come home once a week to a house that reeks of bleach as my wife fights the > mold in our bathtub. My car only gets 23 mi/gal (how many L/100 km is that?). > I'd rather live in a round grain bin with ovolving shelves and a suspended > bookshelf, spend my weekends racing in my non-tippable rowing needle (my wife > was in crew), and fly to work (see also "A Plane in Every Home" in > http://www.nzedge.com/heroes/pearse.html > ). Are there any dome office buildings? Dome-covered cities? > > Am I rambling? As always, please remove my email address, if you can, before > posting to any LISTS. > > Thanks. > > "Joe S Moore" > 03/27/2003 04:51 PM > > > To: "Gabriel Sroka" > cc: "List, Geodesic" , "List, > DomeHome" > Subject: Re: dome? > > Gabriel, > > I didn't know about the 3-dome cluster. Can you give us more details such as > type of use, diameter(s), year built, manufacturer, etc? > > -------------------------------------------- > Joe S Moore > joe_s_moore@hotmail.com > http://buckminster.info > ------------------------------------------- > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gabriel Sroka > To: joe_s_moore@hotmail.com > Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2003 12:01 PM > Subject: dome? > > Hey Joe, > > the 3 dome-cluster at 5865 E Spring St in Long Beach, CA is almost visible on > Mapquest's Aerial Photo (in real life, they're leaky and moldy) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 14:51:13 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dick Fischbeck Subject: Eshelter market report Comments: To: sphere , synergeo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here is a current market report on emergency/disaster shelter. Where is the compound curvature in this? Did I miss it? Maybe it is time to add it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GeoJourney/files/ Dick __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 19:29:16 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Electric Grid Status - In General MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gerardo, The status of any country can be checked by going to this website http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/contents.html and searching for a particular country like Iraq http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html and then scrolling down to, for example, the "Electric Power" section. -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerardo Garcia" Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic To: Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 4:00 AM Subject: Re: Electric Grid Status - In General > >From: Quincy Quincy Quincy > >Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works > > > >To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: Re: Electric Grid Status - In General > >Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 22:59:30 +0000 > > >>>Fuel-cells in the basement? > > Are fuel cells weapons of mass destruction (massive electric grid > destruction) > > I am waiting for the report of the grid in Irak. Is Joe going strictly > alphabetical? > > Gerado García ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 19:39:17 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Re: Albata Domes Comments: To: DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Albata Geodesics website: "Our connectors (or "hubs" ) are made from 3/4" plywood and have metal alignment brackets to assure proper alignment of all ribs (struts) and makes assembly much easier than some types of connectors." http://domebuilder.wecre8.com/agds.htm -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "The DomeHome List" To: Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 10:22 AM Subject: re: Albata Domes > From: "Bob S." > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 23:19:09 -0700 > > When I did expand the image given to 4 times I'd have to say yes. > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Don Sturgeon > > Organization: Spectral Applied Research > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:31:39 -0500 > > > > David, > > > >> From your picture, > > > > http://www.thecaudles.com/domephotos/galleries/2nd_Dome/dome1.htm > > > > it would appear the Albata dome is made using plywood hubs. > > Is this correct? > > > > Don > > > > Re: > > > >> From: "David & Edna Caudle" > >> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 20:08:15 -0600 > >> > >> I've built a two-dome Albata .One dome is finished out and > >> occupied , with inside work going on in the second. You can > >> have a look at www.thecaudles.com .My contact info is there > >> if you have specific questions. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 20:50:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electricity Grid Update-Bangladesh MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Discussions have been underway for several years about the possibility = of Bangladesh connection its electric grid to those of India, Nepal, and = Bhutan. Nepal and Bhutan have substantial untapped hydroelectricity = potential. This power could be consumed in those two countries and also = exported to India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. In March 1999, it was = reported that India's Power Grid Corporation had completed a feasibility = study on possible exchange of 150 MW of power between Bangladesh and = India. Interconnection points would be Ishwardi, Bangladesh-Farakka, = India and Shahjibazar, Bangladesh-Kurnarghat, India." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/bangla.html=20 -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:01:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Update-Belarus MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Belarus has a power-generating capacity of 7.5 GW. Oil- and natural = gas-fired power plants make up 99.9% of Belarus' power generation, with = hydroelectric accounting for just 0.1%. Both electricity consumption and = generation have declined in the decade since independence, but the = country's decaying infrastructure and a lack of investment in = maintenance and upgrades has resulted in power generation decreasing = faster than consumption, meaning Belarus is still a net importer of = electricity for about 20% of its annual power demand. In 2000, Belarus = produced 24.7 Bkwh of power but consumed 26.8 Bkwh.=20 The Belarussian government has attempted to stifle domestic power = consumption and cover production costs by implementing incremental price = increases, including a 25% price rise for residential consumers in = February 2002. However, the country's accelerating inflation = consistently has outpaced tariff increases, and nonpayment by consumers, = as well as the Belarussian government's unwillingness to cut off = debtors, has forced Belenerha into a dire financial position, unable to = pay for imported electricity supplies. With Lithuania periodically = suspending electricity supplies to Belarus in order to force debt = payment, Belarus has turned to Russia as its main source for its power = imports. Belenerha, the state-owned energy utility, imported over 5 Bkwh = of Russian electricity in 2001, with an additional 0.9 Bkwh of power = imported from Lithuania. Russia's electricity monopoly, Unified Energy = Systems (UES), agreed to supply Belarus with up to 5.5 Bkwh of = electricity in 2002." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/baltics.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:12:32 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Update-Bhutan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Discussions have been underway among Southern Asian nations for = development of a regional electricity grid. Such a grid could lead to = increased efficiencies and reduced power generation and transmission = costs. Nepal and Bhutan have substantial untapped hydroelectricity = potential. This power could be consumed in those two countries and also = exported to India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh." "Bhutan also has the potential to become a major hydropower exporter. = Some estimates have put the country's potential hydropower resources as = high as 30 GW. The main large project currently under development is the = Tala hydropower project, which is to be operational by 2004-2005. It = will have an installed capacity of 1,020 MW, and produce power for = export to northern India." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/bhutan.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:20:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Update-Bolivia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The national grid, the SIN, accounts for the vast majority of Bolivia's = installed electric capacity and power generation, reaching five of the = country's nine "departments". The grid was privatized in 1997 and is = owned and operated by Transportadora de Electricidad (TDE), itself owned = by Red Electrica Espana following its purchase of Union Fenosa's 69% = share in July 2002. A plan to expand the SIN received regulatory = approval in March 2001. In May 2002, Bolivia's Electricity = Superintendency launched a tender for construction and operation of = three power transmission lines: Santivanez-Sucre, Sucre-Punutuma, and = Carrasco-Urubo.=20 Although the SIN connects Bolivia's major cities, an estimated 80% of = the country's rural population does not have access to electricity. The = National Rural Electrification Program (Proner) aims to increase the = rural electrification rate in coming years. Bolivia has been developing = alternative electricity sources for its isolated communities. Renewable = energy sources such as solar and biomass fuel small power generators in = the highlands. Also, grid connections are expanding to include areas = previously not accessed by the grid." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/bolivia.html (Note: Bolivia doesn't seem to be linked to its neighbors.) -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:26:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Update-Brazil MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Together with Paraguay, Brazil maintains the world's largest = operational hydroelectric complex, the Itaipu facility on the Paran=E1 = River, with a capacity of 12,600 megawatts (MW). Brazil's remaining = electricity generation capacity comes from coal and an ever-increasing = amount from natural gas. Brazil's small northern and larger southern = electrical grids were joined in January 1999 into one grid that serves = 98% of the country. Brazil's domestic supply is augmented by imports = from neighboring Argentina." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/brazil.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 21:33:32 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid Update-Bulgaria MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "The shutdown of reactors at Kozloduy NPP could affect Bulgaria's status = as the regional power hub in the Balkan Peninsula. In 2000, Bulgaria = more than doubled its electricity exports, sending 5.6 billion = kilowatt-hours (Bkwh) of electricity to its neighbors and earning more = than $105 million in the process. Preliminary 2001 figures show that = Bulgaria's exports increased to nearly 7 Bkwh. Turkey, the region's = largest power consumer, imported 3.4 Bkwh of power from Bulgaria in = 2000, up from 2.2 Bkwh of Bulgarian electricity in 1999. In addition, = Bulgaria exported power to Greece, Yugoslavia, and Macedonia in 2000, = and in August 2001, Bulgaria began exporting power to Albania for the = first time ever. Although the closure of the first two units at Kozloduy = NPP will not affect the amount of electricity available for Bulgaria's = domestic consumption, it could affect exports to neighboring countries." Ref: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/seeurope.html -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 21:53:31 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Subject: grids, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" The question of the global grid has brought up the question of global security. Is a unified grid more vulnerable? I thought the idea mostly had to do with efficiency and economy. Everybody turns out the lights in one location when everyone is turning them on in another. One could think of countless technological arrangements which involved unification and would look very attractive in terms of efficiency and economy. What if there were transportation pods which could be delivered to any location say within 10 minutes of request, which latched onto some sort of tracking system, could branch off at any point, or feed into high-speed networks for longer distance travel. Could operate at a fraction of the material and energy cost of our present system, but getting the popular consensus would be quite a challenge. One factor would certainly be the vulnerability of such a system to sabotage. One could visualize huge environmentally controlled spaces with film skins which could reduce energy costs in cities to a tiny fraction of what they are. Vulnerable to those bad guys again! Not to mention people with flatulence. If shared systems were redundant and easily repaired, then the vulnerability issue might be solvable. Then the problem might just be our old friend the ego. Bob Sanderson megadome@meganet.net ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:07:11 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe S Moore Subject: Electric Grid-Greater Mekong Sub-Region Comments: cc: "Meisen, Peter" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Power Trade Strategy for the Greater Mekong Sub-Region" Report # 19067-EAP by the World Bank, March 1999 http://www-wds.worldbank.org/servlet/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/1999/12/11/= 000094946_99041505302543/Rendered/PDF/multi_page.pdf Note: An excellent map of existing & proposed links on last page of = report (p 87) -------------------------------------------- Joe S Moore joe_s_moore@hotmail.com http://buckminster.info ------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:25:36 +0200 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Frank Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: <20030328152415.4193.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable CHE GERARDO! FRANCHO BE HERE AND LUVI IT! CUANDO VENDRAS A VISITARME? MOLLEJA El 28/3/03 17:24, "frank zubek" escribi=F3: > --- Gerardo Garcia wrote: >>> From: Leifur Thor >>> Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster >> Fuller's works >>> >>> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU >>> Subject: Re: size >>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:45:12 -0800 >>=20 >>=20 >>> ...isn't it >>> odd to even be thinking about squares when they >> only exist in a xyz mapping >>> system, and our (mankind's) physical constructs of >> them are flawed at >>> best... >>>=20 >>> I guess what I'm trying to say is why are we >> talking about things that only >>> exist in our minds and not in nature? >>>=20 >>=20 >> maybe supernatural is natural, maybe our mind is >> natural (but then we had to >> accept that the physical world has a mind) >=20 > Well yes it does :Evrything is motivated to achieve > the most for the least expenditure of effort" The > angle of a sand pile is always the same "angle of > repese" That is because nature fells confortable and > most stable at that angle for that sand pile. Soap > bubbles are sphere where they can capture the most air > in that container. Water falls downvard because it is > eassier for it to get where it is going. I could go on > and on to show that yes nature always falows the > efficiency principle. >=20 >> and maybe we keep talking about this things because >> we are not tired >> enough.... Quincy is not tired yet of talking about >> today's empire, but has >> not even said a word about the Spanish empire (too >> tiring to talk about >> something like that) >>=20 >> and I am still waiting for the devices that promise >> absolute freedom of >> movement (no pollution, no earth surface damages) >> and of behavior (no >> damages to other people: nothing beginnig with an F >> or ending in a HAWK). >> With those devices surely we would know rapidly what >> (and who)is what we >> really want: is it the Argentinian? the Spaniard? >>=20 >> as for 1997, in the internet, content was not king, >> e-mailing was king. It >> sounded to me Teilhardian (T. de Chardin): "the >> convergence" independent of >> content (or device?). >>=20 >> Gerardo Garc?a >> Tampico de Henares >>=20 >> ps. where is Francho? >>=20 >>=20 > _________________________________________________________________ >> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months >> FREE* >> http://join.msn.com/?page=3Dfeatures/junkmail >=20 >=20 > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 09:36:11 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: frank zubek Subject: Re: size In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Frank wrote: > CHE GERARDO! > > FRANCHO BE HERE AND LUVI IT! > > CUANDO VENDRAS A VISITARME? > > MOLLEJA > > El 28/3/03 17:24, "frank zubek" > escribió: > > > --- Gerardo Garcia > wrote: > >>> From: Leifur Thor > >>> Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster > >> Fuller's works > >>> > >>> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU > >>> Subject: Re: size > >>> Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:45:12 -0800 > >> > >> > >>> ...isn't it > >>> odd to even be thinking about squares when they > >> only exist in a xyz mapping > >>> system, and our (mankind's) physical constructs > of > >> them are flawed at > >>> best... > >>> > >>> I guess what I'm trying to say is why are we > >> talking about things that only > >>> exist in our minds and not in nature? > >>> > >> > >> maybe supernatural is natural, maybe our mind is > >> natural (but then we had to > >> accept that the physical world has a mind) > > > > Well yes it does :Evrything is motivated to > achieve > > the most for the least expenditure of effort" The > > angle of a sand pile is always the same "angle of > > repese" That is because nature fells confortable > and > > most stable at that angle for that sand pile. Soap > > bubbles are sphere where they can capture the most > air > > in that container. Water falls downvard because it > is > > eassier for it to get where it is going. I could > go on > > and on to show that yes nature always falows the > > efficiency principle. > > > >> and maybe we keep talking about this things > because > >> we are not tired > >> enough.... Quincy is not tired yet of talking > about > >> today's empire, but has > >> not even said a word about the Spanish empire > (too > >> tiring to talk about > >> something like that) > >> > >> and I am still waiting for the devices that > promise > >> absolute freedom of > >> movement (no pollution, no earth surface damages) > >> and of behavior (no > >> damages to other people: nothing beginnig with an > F > >> or ending in a HAWK). > >> With those devices surely we would know rapidly > what > >> (and who)is what we > >> really want: is it the Argentinian? the Spaniard? > >> > >> as for 1997, in the internet, content was not > king, > >> e-mailing was king. It > >> sounded to me Teilhardian (T. de Chardin): "the > >> convergence" independent of > >> content (or device?). > >> > >> Gerardo Garc?a > >> Tampico de Henares > >> > >> ps. where is Francho? > >> I'm somewhat disapointed, since obviously the four colored map is a bigger puzzle than me claiming that I was able to derive the smalest building blocks of nature. It is clear that if something profound comes from nobody of higher status than no mater what it becomes irrelevan until one makes a name for him self. Quincy is more of a politician than anything else and he likes to counterdict everyones thoughts, which would be fine but he does it with insults and name giving. Quincy believes that elabored skilfull talk is more relevant than the idea it's self. frank > > > _________________________________________________________________ > >> STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 > months > >> FREE* > >> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, > live on your desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 02:39:17 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Quincy Quincy Quincy Subject: Re: Eshelter market report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dick F., why must you shill your randomania at every turn?... presumably, all of the domes that don't use flat panels, will be using compound curvature -- which your bogus method cannot handle, per your description. why don't you find another hobby-horse? PS: that waws a *huge* file, which you could have poste the URL for. oops; you did. thus quoth: Copyright 2003 infoUSA.com, Inc. US Business Directory HANSEN WEATHERPORT CORP ANCHORAGE, AK 99515 UNITED STATES TEL: 907-344-1565 ABI-NO: 598202208 COUNTY: 02020 ANCHORAGE POPULATION: 250,000 - 499,999 EE PRI-SIC: 999977 NONCLASSIFIED ESTABLISHMENTS LOC-SALES: UNKNOWN LL LOC-EMPLOYEES: UNKNOWN PAR-EMPLOYEES: UNKNOWN BUSINESS-ORG: FIRM AD-SIZE: REGULAR LISTING CREDIT: UNKNOWN LANGUAGE: ENGLISH LOAD-DATE: February 18, 2003 Cover-It All Weather Shelters West Haven, CT 06516, 1-800-932-9344. Hansen Weather-Port Corp. 1001 Industrial Ave., Olathe, CO 81425, (800) 878-6626. Quik-Shelter 163 Orange Ave., West Haven, CT 06516, (800) 211-3730. Source - http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/kb13/misc.htm --Dec.2000 'WAND' Chairman Paul O'Neill, reelected to Board. Newsish? http://www.rand.org/publications/randreview/issues/rr.12.00/ http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail