From <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sun Feb 5 03:20:09 1995 Received: from netaxs.com (root@netaxs.com [198.69.186.1]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA08675 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 03:20:09 -0500 Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [128.205.2.1]) by netaxs.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA02942 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 03:19:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199502050819.DAA02942@netaxs.com> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9154; Sun, 05 Feb 95 03:19:41 EST Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3755; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 03:19:35 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 03:19:32 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8a)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9209" To: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 15:01:18 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Holder Subject: SHOR NUFF IZ QWAAAT RAOUN HAIR howdy partners. just thought I'd shout into the silence. About a year ago (jeez time flies) I mailed away to about thirty dome manufacturers. I got maybe fifteen replies (these numbers are off the top of my head, it could be more like 10 out of 15...?) but anyways, although this is a BUCKY list, I thought it might be appropriate to offer to produce a little listing of dome manufacturers and addresses... gimme a coupla days. no need tuh thank me ma'am, jus doin muh job. been a raaal playzur. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ assistant unix troll us geological survey ~ ~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov st petersburg florida usa ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:03:21 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "Claude W. Van Horn" Subject: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR Since this is the only newsgroup I could find that talked about anything Bucky did, I ws wondering if it was O.K. to discuss other of his theories besides the Geodesic Dome? I was particularly interested in the book Critical Path, and its aplication to the world situation we are now in, where people exceed usefull jobs. Any comments? Van!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 07:40:55 MDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Hickler Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR In-Reply-To: <199209101024.AA19597@csn.org>; from "Claude W. Van Horn" at Sep 10, 92 8:03 am > > Since this is the only newsgroup I could find that talked about anything > Bucky did, I ws wondering if it was O.K. to discuss other of his theories > besides the Geodesic Dome? > > I was particularly interested in the book Critical Path, and its aplication > to the world situation we are now in, where people exceed usefull jobs. > > Any comments? > > Van!! > Go for it, please. I find this group very engineering oriented while Bucky's philosophical musings aren't discussed much. Robert Hickler Tel (303) 863-8088 Accelr8 Technology Email robert@accelr8.com Denver, CO USA Fax (303) 863-1218 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:03:44 PDT Reply-To: Richard Everman Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Everman Subject: Re: SHOR NUFF IZ QWAAAT RAOUN HAIR Robert Thanks for the message. I had forgotten I was on this list! Why is it so dead? Is there no interest in alternate housing? etc. etc. I look forward to the posting. Thanks again Richard ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:23:30 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Cary Subject: Domes to replace mobile Homes? With all the movement by the various levels of government to either ban or severely restrict mobile homes in Southern Florida (post-Andrew), I was wondering if the various dome manufacturers have looked upon this as a way to expand their marketplace?? I would think an inexpensive dome would be an admirable replacement and far more wind resistant than a mobile home... Just a stray thought on the commute home last night.... -Steve Cary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:40:43 PDT Reply-To: Richard Everman Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Everman Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR Van Sorry, but I have not read Critical Path; however, I think he would have trouble defining what a usefull job is. I made the mistake once of telling someone what I thought of manual labor. He spent the better part of an hour telling be all the benefits of working outdoors, toning the body, etc. (I still don't think digging ditches is a meaningful job -- but, other people do!) So the issue may not be that ".. people exceed usefull jobs." but that people do not feel it is their responsibilty to create a job they feel is useful. Richard > I was particularly interested in the book Critical Path, and its aplication > to the world situation we are now in, where people exceed usefull jobs. > > Any comments? > > Van!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:47:45 PDT Reply-To: Richard Everman Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Everman Subject: Re: Domes to replace mobile Homes? In message <9209102311.AA06188@ka.reg.uci.edu> List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works writes: > With all the movement by the various levels of government to either > ban or severely restrict mobile homes in Southern Florida (post-Andrew), > I was wondering if the various dome manufacturers have looked upon > this as a way to expand their marketplace?? > > I would think an inexpensive dome would be an admirable replacement and > far more wind resistant than a mobile home... > > Just a stray thought on the commute home last night.... > > -Steve Cary Steve I like the idea. Do you have cost comparisons between a dome and mobile homes? Thanks Richard ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:58:27 -0400 Reply-To: adam@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "A Page in the Life of ..." Subject: Domes to replace mobile Homes? In-Reply-To: Steve Cary's message of Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:23:30 PDT From: Steve Cary With all the movement by the various levels of government to either ban or severely restrict mobile homes in Southern Florida (post-Andrew), I was wondering if the various dome manufacturers have looked upon this as a way to expand their marketplace?? I would think an inexpensive dome would be an admirable replacement and far more wind resistant than a mobile home... Just a stray thought on the commute home last night.... -Steve Cary I heard on the radio (yes I was down in florida for the debicle ...) down there that there were a few plastic houses being blown (as in inflated) and the guy who apparently does the living specks on habitats was quoted to say that he thought it was rediculous, but if it works, he might allow it. Remember in Kissimee (sp?) florida Xanadu was built. -- If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. -- Vice President Dan Quayle, to the Phoenix Republican Forum, March 1990 -- Internaut at large. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:45:33 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Future World Leader!! Subject: Re: SHOR NUFF IZ QWAAAT RAOUN HAIR Thank ya' pardner. My eyes have a hankerin' fer some rattlesnake snew stew cooked beneath the shadow of a brilliant white dome. lovingly, eric swenson swensone@acfcluster.nyu.edu menudo@well.sf.ca.us ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 02:34:47 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Steven D Ourada Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR In van@teal.csn.org (Claude W. Van Horn) writes: >Since this is the only newsgroup I could find that talked about anything >Bucky did, I ws wondering if it was O.K. to discuss other of his theories >besides the Geodesic Dome? >I was particularly interested in the book Critical Path, and its aplication >to the world situation we are now in, where people exceed usefull jobs. >Any comments? I've always liked Bucky's assertion that, contrary to common opinion, there are enough resources on Spaceship Earth ( :-) to give every human adequate living conditions. With systematic application of scientific and technological principles, we can give everyone food, shelter, and education. Each person would have the option of working or not, learning or not, but everyone would be given basic needs. The part of the above statement that hits the nerve of the "working American" is that noone would be forced to work in order to "make a living". Many people think that noone should get anything for free. But if the resources are available, they should be used for the purpose of diminishing human sufferring and increasing human productivity. Yes, I said _increasing_. I also agree with Fuller's assertion that if people were not enslaved by the work they have to do to "make a living", and if they were given the opportunity to do self-directed learning in any field they wished, they would not become lazy, but become highly productive. They would work in a field that they liked, at a pace that they liked, without the restrictions imposed by the need to make money. The motivation to work would be a combination of a natural desire to improve oneself and a socially imposed desire to gather more material goods (although this desire would slowly work it's way out of the collective consciousness as it was replaced by the first). Please don't flame me if you find that something ommitted or unclear (feel free, of course, to ask me nicely to elucidate :-)). This is just a quick overview off the top of my head. Fuller has written quite a bit about these ideas, with much more skill than I have. I recommend going to the nearest library and reading everything by Fuller... Later, Steven Ourada -- ----------------- Steven Ourada Member of the Students for Electronic Freedom Ask me how Iowa State University is censoring my Usenet access! sourada@iastate.edu "can't casts no shadow" -- cummings ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 07:33:26 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "Claude W. Van Horn" Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path I just love to read stuff written by Fuller. the multi-hyphenated- language and high-sounding terminology is unique. I picked up Critical Path about 5 years ago, and fell in love with his way of putting things. I was a bit upset with his ideas (which sounded socialistic to me) but as we are continuing to produce more goods with less effort -- and as the world seems to be starting to settle into a more co-operativ frame of mind -- I was going to re-read the book and see if I still feel that the ideas were too far to the left. I started to read his book SINERGY, but got left behind in the 4th or 5th chapter. Anyone else do better?? Van!!n!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 07:38:45 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "Claude W. Van Horn" Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR Hey Steve, maybe I got something started again that will really go somewhere! I hope other fans and critics of Fuller will take up the challange and pull buckey back off the shelf! Van!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:17:14 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Holder Subject: Get back to work, you!! peter gabriel (in the song "don't give up") said, in this proud land we grew up strong we were wanted all along i was taught to fight taught to win i never thought i would fail no fight left or so it seems i am a man whose dreams have all deserted . . . for every job, so many men so many men no one needs and this expresses the same sentiment. I have only read the first few pages of critical path, but that statement, (paraphrase) "we now have resources and the technical ability as humans to feed and house the population of the planet. Since we are able to do that, the fact that we are not doing it is due to the decisions we have made about what is important to us". i looked at that book briefly at a friends house, and i was interested in what fuller proposed as solutions but never did get to read that part (!). can someone (or all) who have read the book give their brief recollection and assessment of fullers solutions to the world have/have-not problem? thanks. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ assistant unix troll us geological survey ~ ~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov st petersburg florida usa ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:41:14 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Holder Subject: YOU'RE FIRED upon re-reading my message, I realized that not everybody will interpret my loose-quote of fuller the way I have. It can also be interpreted in the traditional darwinian- capitalistic way so popular in "free-enterprise" america. I just wanted to come back and say that while I have many doubts about capitalism being the BEST system, I think it is the best thing going, and certainly (in my mind) beats communism or socialism which clearly do not motivate the individual to strive for their own perfection. I am not so much a believer in capitalism and democracy as I am an enemy of communism and dictatorships. And I have become bitter by the tidy numbing euphemisms I keep hearing like how the homeless are people who "have fallen through the cracks". There is one thing I DO know: my mind is just as imprisoned as that of Michael Milken or anybody else I would prop up as my enemy, and what I REALLY need is not a gun but a MAP. So far, I haven't heard anyone who is able to point the way in a manner that enough people of differing beliefs can agree to follow together. OK, that's my clarifier, now back to the question: what is Fuller's plan? robert h ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:56:25 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Future World Leader!! Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path hAIR Please expand on your reasoning. Why do you believe what you believe about this utopian vision? I would like to read some empirical evidence which supports your beliefs. Thank you. ----8=========>---------------* eric swenson swensone@acfcluster.nyu.edu ----8=========>---------------* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:16:58 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Murphy Subject: Dome homes (unNatural Space? ;-)) Reply-To: garym@maya.isis.org This is not an endorsement, as I am most pleased with the package I received from Natural Spaces (and thanks, Tom, for that price comparison!), but in the interest of completeness, the following list was recently distributed over the misc.rural newsgroup: Dome Homes Monterey Domes Riverside, CA Dome Creations Las Vegas, NV The Big Outdoors People 26600 Fallbrook Ave. Wyoming Industrial Park Wyoming, MN 55092 612-462-1011 Catherdralite Domes 820 Bay Ave, Suite 302 Capitola, CA 95010 408-0462-2210 Domes America, Inc. 6 S. 771 Western Ave Clarendon Hills, IL 60514 800-323-5548 Domes and Homes, Inc. PO Box 365 Brielle, NJ 08730 215-825-8290 Dome Home Systems, Inc. Route 2, Box 247A Reedsburg, WI 53959 608-524-4555 Free Space Geodesics 7094 N. Harrison Ave, Suite 165 Pinedale, CA 93650 209-431-8670 Geodesic Domes, Inc. 10290 Davison Rd. Davison, MI 313-653-2383 Polydome 3020 North Park Way San Diego, CA 92104 714-574-1400 Synapse Domes PO Box 554 Lander, WY 82520 307-332-5773, -4117 Timberline Geodesics 2015 Blake St. Berkeley, CA 94704 415-849-4481 Gary Lawrence Murphy - Gary.Murphy@software.mitel.COM - (613) 592-2122 x3709 "But what if there _were_ such things as past lives?" "Close your eyes. Notice how dark it becomes. Open your eyes. What do you see?" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 12:54:06 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Fuller's History of Industrialization In-Reply-To: <92Sep11.100828edt.9604@mail.uunet.ca> (Gary Lawrence Murphy) In <92Sep11.100828edt.9604@mail.uunet.ca> robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov writes: > > I just wanted to come back and say that while I have many > doubts about capitalism being the BEST system, I think it > is the best thing going, and certainly (in my mind) beats > communism or socialism which clearly do not motivate the > individual to strive for their own perfection. > How would you know? Fuller maintained the capitalist, or more precisely the industrialist method was by far the best, but he had devestating documentation to suggest what we in the western world have is _not_ either democratic or free-enterprise. Read Grunch of Giants and get back to us with your reactions ;-) > I am not so much a believer in capitalism and democracy > as I am an enemy of communism and dictatorships. And I > have become bitter by the tidy numbing euphemisms I keep > hearing like how the homeless are people who "have fallen > through the cracks". This is, in Fuller's view, because we expect our governments to do something about it. This has never, in the history of mankind, been the mandate of any government. If the homeless bother you, what are YOU doing about it. Fuller shows precisely how one penniless individual can make a difference. The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. > There is one thing I DO know: my mind is just as imprisoned > as that of Michael Milken or anybody else I would prop up > as my enemy, and what I REALLY need is not a gun but a > MAP. So far, I haven't heard anyone who is able to point > the way in a manner that enough people of differing beliefs > can agree to follow together. According to the stats presented at the WorldGame I attended last year, a mere one-quarter of the world military expenditures for that year would, if equitably distributed, give every one of the 5 billion members of humanity a lifestyle Donald Trump would envy. Do that, and you will have a lot more agreement in the world --- it is hard to negotiate with a man when he is hungry, harder still when his children are starving. > OK, that's my clarifier, now back to the question: what > is Fuller's plan? Read Ideas and Integrities or the Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth. It is all still possible, but only by personal initiative. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 11:40:10 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: RE: Fuller's History of Industrialization Thank-You G[C[C[C Murphy... You said what I wished to, but could not find all the words for... Sinsinct I am not. However , I would ad (nausium), a bit to the phylisophical fray... To point at Socialism, or Capatialism, or Comuenism, and say "oooww bad!" and denounce it in fear, sighting how-bad-it-is in places with those systems, is like (yes, another week analogy) the contractor who saw the leek problems a friend was having with a Dome and said "woooo, bad magic, never will work, I would never live in one"... Which is too say, any Idea, nomatter how good, can be counted on to be rolly screwed up or abuesed those who are inclined to. I, too, would like to see (whatch my spelling) Imperical evidence of functioning Capatalism.... I't don't work so hot for me... And what is all this buisness with seperating Comunism and Democracey? I would pay money for a ticket on a boat like that, given a life preserver. We did not junk religion (smile when you say that) with that wonderfull Spanish Inquisition, however much we would like too... I think the dome as a nifty shelter for humanity suffers from some of the same symptomes as those not-so-niftly exicueted social programs... "Ya, Orvill, ya had it, I know...just a little more speed...one less mountain and if this weren't hunting season that sucker would have sored like a bird." Meaning that if condictions are right, and you did't overlook somthing, and nobody threw a wrench in the works for ya, you can prabably make it work, probably... Ether way, when it does't work, THEY will still say "I told you so, never get me up in one of those..." Rhysling@Euclid.Humboldt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:26:48 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Steven D Ourada Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path In van@teal.csn.org (Claude W. Van Horn) writes: >I just love to read stuff written by Fuller. the multi-hyphenated- >language and high-sounding terminology is unique. I picked up >Critical Path about 5 years ago, and fell in love with his way of >putting things. He is quite expressive, once you get used to the style. At first, I thought he was just attempting to sound high-minded, but he really does use his unique language to get more precision out of English. >I was a bit upset with his ideas (which sounded socialistic to me) but >as we are continuing to produce more goods with less effort -- and as >the world seems to be starting to settle into a more co-operativ frame >of mind -- I was going to re-read the book and see if I still feel that >the ideas were too far to the left. I don't really see his ideas as socialistic (although, mind you, being socialistic is not necessarily a bad thing...). For example, he says that individual should recieve the fruits of their labors, whatever work they do that they are now not required to do. Oooops, I wanted to make a point to cooperation in my last post, but forgot. Bucky's vision would benefit greatly from, and may only be possible with, a lot of cooperation. As he repeats many times in his works, non-material wealth (knowledge, technology, etc.) can only grow. Implicit in this statement, though, is the assumption that everyone working to increase non-material wealth will share thier new knowledge. If there is undue protectionism on the part of, say, scientists working for commercial enterprises, then non-material wealth may actually decrease for the general population. Cooperation, therefore, is necessary to keep the science and technology moving forward, instead of standing still, moving laterally. >I started to read his book SINERGY, but got left behind in the 4th or 5th >chapter. Anyone else do better?? I don't know if that can be read straight through. I think it was intended as a refernce to his ideas about Synergy, rather than a sequential novel-like book. Later, Steven Ourada -- ----------------- Steven Ourada Member of the Students for Electronic Freedom Ask me how Iowa State University is censoring my Usenet access! sourada@iastate.edu "can't casts no shadow" -- cummings ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 12:38:41 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: RE: Fuller's History of Industrialization In-Reply-To: <92Sep13.144941edt.9737@mail.uunet.ca> (Gary Lawrence Murphy) In <92Sep13.144941edt.9737@mail.uunet.ca> GEODESIC@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu writes: > > Thank-You G[C[C[C Murphy... > > You said what I wished to, but could not find all the words for... Thank you; happy to be of service. That said, you go on .. > > Which is too say, any Idea, nomatter how good, can be counted on to be > rolly screwed up or abuesed those who are inclined to. I think it was the editor of Synergetics who commented on someone asking Fuller about his positive disposition; the story goes he said it was the only way one could walk into so many over-built, over-mortgaged buildings and not go mad. :-) The truth is, even with foreign construction workers untrained in the methods of dome construction (which were more akin to plumbing skills), the Turkish domes were assembled in record time. When the Navy had domes to build in Saudi, Fuller suggested they ship all the required tools with the kit. The Navy said he was crazy, as overseas servicemen would make off with the kits. Fuller smiled; they would be in such a hurry to disappear with their booty, the domes would go up in record time. He got his way, and once again, was right on target. That is what is known as a Comprehensive Design ;-) > I think the dome as a nifty shelter for humanity suffers from some of the > same symptomes as those not-so-niftly exicueted social programs... If you look into present construction habits, all the same errors are there, except traditional homes are expected to cost the sky, so no one questions the Lords of Construction. A 'properly' designed geodesic was to be constructed in the factory, a far better environment for quality control, and air-delivered. Fuller's companies air-delivered over 600 domes. > Meaning that if condictions are right, and you did't overlook somthing, > and nobody threw a wrench in the works for ya, you can prabably make it > work, probably... So for this reason you are going to pull the covers over your head and let others do the work? Be my guest! > Ether way, when it does't work, THEY will still say "I told you so, > never get me up in one of those..." In science, we say nothing is ever a failure: it can always be used as a bad example. Truth is, we seldom learn anything by success. When my giant tensegrity dome for the Stellarc stage cracked a strut down it's full 12' length, the promoter was upset, Stellarc was worried, I was delighted. When the second try exploded (a carpenter sat on a strut for lunch and BOOM --- he won't do that again :-) ), I was ecstatic! By the third try, I had learned how to supervise carpenters, a key design feature I had missed. The show was a smashing success. This has been a little off-topic from the industrialization issue, but not to me --- the approach to finding solutions is the same: the key is not in legislation or public opinion polls. As with everything else in life, the key is in the DOING. Now ... what needs to be done? -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 23:22:28 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "Claude W. Van Horn" Subject: Re: Fuller's History of Industrialization In article RHYSLING@PHOENIX.BITNET (THE END IS NIE!) writes: >Thank-You G[C[C[C Murphy... > > I, too, would like to see (whatch my spelling) Imperical evidence of > functioning Capatalism.... I't don't work so hot for me... > > And what is all this buisness with seperating Comunism and Democracey? > I would pay money for a ticket on a boat like that, given a life > preserver. I am a strong believer in capatalism, it has worked fine with me (no I am not rich, but I am comfortable). I get a great deal of pleasure out of doing a job well, working hard, being usefull to my clients - employers - whatever. Since I am now "the boss", I have learned to my great regret that there are few around with the work ethic my partner and I seem to have accidentally developed. It seems that in most strata, people are interested in mainly what kind of benefits they can "get" rather than what kind of benefits they can "earn". I know people in nearly every profession that share this old fashoned work ethic, I passed it on to two of my three kids, and it is the kind of ethic that would stand up well in the "critical path" view of utopia. I would be working, sharing, ignoring my family for my clients (well, everyone has *some* problems) and generating ideas to help businesses succeed whether I earned extra stuff for it or not. I also know many people who consider mine a stupid, old-fashoned attitude that earns the disrespect it gets from much of today's work culture. The part of Critical Path that bugs me is that when I see people willing to let others support them without *any* desire to participate in activities beneficial to society -- in fact some are even willing to *hurt* society and still feel they have earned a welcome place in it -- I get upset. These people do exist. They are just a portion of the current "welfare" society. Many in that system seek and desire employment. Many are unable to work due to physical or medical reasons. These latter catagories do not bother me. I have known mothers on welfare who starve their kids, use the ADC money up on clothes and booze to attract more men. I have seen fathers rescue these kids from the situation - providing food, clothing, love and then well meaning social workers find the child and put them back in the mother's care. I have seen at least 3 situations like this out of 10 or 12 welefare situations I know about. I just feel that the world needs to have some kind of a reward and punishment system so that behaviors that benefit society will be encouraged. Critical Path did not seem to have a system for this. If everyone was as community consious as Fuller, and the members of the internet community, and others wanting to take a helpfull roll in the improvement of the world, there would be plenty of everything for all. How would other readers of this topic - and readers of Critical Path, deal with these problems. Van!! > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:41:15 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Other Bucky stuff: Critical Path In-Reply-To: <92Sep13.164252edt.9762@mail.uunet.ca> (Gary Lawrence Murphy) In <92Sep13.164252edt.9762@mail.uunet.ca> sourada@iastate.edu writes: > In van@teal.csn.org (Claude W. Van Horn) writes: > > >I just love to read stuff written by Fuller. the multi-hyphenated- > >language and high-sounding terminology is unique. > > He is quite expressive, once you get used to the style. At first, I > thought he was just attempting to sound high-minded, but he really does > use his unique language to get more precision out of English. One key to understanding Fuller's English can be found in his book "I Seem to Be A Verb" --- Fuller was very careful to avoid most nouns, seeing them as misleading. He also sought to avoid other misleading constructs such as "sunrise" (sun-show). As for the vocabulary, Goldy says to the Three Bears (in Tetrascroll): " If you don't understand any of my words, you can find them in the dictionary." Wee Bear replies, "Out here we use cosmic thought communications. We don't have to find words in special-language dinction-airies. We use a cosmic thinktionary. All your dictionaries express the universal concepts of our thinktionary but only in special, ethnic-language sound-words. The concepts such as mountains or star or nuance are the same expericne-engendered concepts in all languages. We understand you perfectly, Goldy." > Oooops, I wanted to make a point to cooperation in my last post, but forgot. > Bucky's vision would benefit greatly from, and may only be possible with, > a lot of cooperation. Like to co-operation that has brought world-literacy to nearly 90%? No, second-class evolution is independent of the petty concerns of puffed-up executive thinking. You train mercenaries for your petty African power struggles, and when the cold-war is over, you have left a legacy of literate soldiers. You build an international network of airtravel to move troups and bombs, and when airplanes are no longer strategically important, banana's harvested in Jamaica can be in San Francisco markets by noon the next day. Co-operation would be nice, like Krishnamurti's dream of everyone learning to be responsible, but that is like saying what if everyone in New York decided to go to the same restaurant on the same night. Don't bet on it. > As he repeats many times in his works, non-material > wealth (knowledge, technology, etc.) can only grow. Implicit in this > statement, though, is the assumption that everyone working to increase > non-material wealth will share thier new knowledge. If there is undue > protectionism on the part of, say, scientists working for commercial > enterprises, then non-material wealth may actually decrease for the > general population. Fuller describes the theft of public wealth in many ways. One is by Universities who, with public money, buy the best equipment and train fresh young minds to excellence. Once graduated, the (predominently) tax-free, off-shore corporations make these graduates an offer, and their shareholders reap the benefits of the public investment. It is no accident, says Fuller, that the US was founded on the agreement the government would not hold land --- how would they finance a revolution? As the major land-owners that signed the document! > Cooperation, therefore, is necessary to keep the > science and technology moving forward, instead of standing still, moving > laterally. I was watching a PBS panel-talk show where this scientist had just invented a new form of relay. The host asked him, considering it took 15 years to have the FCC give permission to use his previous version, why would he bother to invent a better one. The scientist was flabbergasted and looked a little foolish as he fumbled for an answer. Truth is, that is not how research goes. Like Picasso said, "I do not seek, I find". > >I started to read his book SINERGY, but got left behind in the 4th or 5th > >chapter. Anyone else do better?? All the way through both volumes twice, and I probably still know only about as much as you ;-). Try Cosmography first. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:57:51 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Fuller's History of Industrialization In-Reply-To: <92Sep13.211129edt.9839@mail.uunet.ca> (Gary Lawrence Murphy) In <92Sep13.211129edt.9839@mail.uunet.ca> van@teal.csn.org writes: > > Since I am now "the boss", I have learned to my great regret that there are > few around with the work ethic my partner and I seem to have accidentally > developed. It seems that in most strata, people are interested in mainly > what kind of benefits they can "get" rather than what kind of benefits they > can "earn". I challenge your ideal and with it bring the missing element that explains why you are unable to propagate your obsolete (in Fuller's view) goal: "A hundred times a day I remind myself that my inner and out life depends on the labours of others, living and dead, and that I must exert myself in order to give in the measure as I have received and am still receiving" -- Albert Einstein A far better "work ethic" is Camus' "True generosity toward the future" accomplished by giving your all for the present. The Japanese have a time-proven technique for generating this more positive sentiment, the techniques of Naikan (for more information see any of the books by David K Reynolds). In Fuller's view, there is no need to 'earn a living', citing the "lilies of the field" as his starting point, his own life as proof. If you are being useful to the maximum number of humanity, you will be retained as an integral part of Reality. It is because you are boss and your employees and clients need you that makes you successful; effort alone just won't do it, and it is that failure of your teaching that makes some of your students give up in frustration. > The part of Critical Path that bugs me is that when I see people willing to > let others support them without *any* desire to participate in activities > beneficial to society -- in fact some are even willing to *hurt* society and > still feel they have earned a welcome place in it -- I get upset. You don't talk to these people much, do you. In Fuller's view, once they no longer think they _must_ "earn a living", ghetto kids, being as rich (ie fabulously) as any other kid on the planet, will cease to feel they are disadvantaged. Why do we have repressive regimes? Greed. Why do we have have-nots? Greed. In Fuller's plan, greed becomes rediculous and obsolete. Like Pierre Elliot Trudeau's thesis, the most important job will be Consumer. It is the flow of goods and the exchange of capital that makes it all work now, and some bright young exec with his Lotus 1-2-3 is bound to discover what Universe has known all along. > I have known mothers on welfare who starve their kids, use the ADC money up > on clothes and booze to attract more men. I have seen fathers rescue these > kids from the situation - providing food, clothing, love and then well meaning > social workers find the child and put them back in the mother's care. I have > seen > at least 3 situations like this out of 10 or 12 welefare situations I know > about. Welfare would also be obsolete, and all the kids material needs met. In giving our all to them, they become consumers, and that has the industrial equation providing for more, which makes it more efficient, which makes it richer ... it is a feedback loop the WorldGame Institute already has evidence to prove. Brace yourself! It is inevitable. > I just feel that the world needs to have some kind of a reward and punishment > system so that behaviors that benefit society will be encouraged. Just so long as you agree with which behaviours have official sanction? Please keep your witch-hunting off this list. We here are interested in a better world, not more of the same. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:07:57 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Holder Subject: How I Would Know. sorry for my admittedly bitter little notes. I am exasperated at the lack of real solutions. In this case, although the little reading of fuller's work I have done has left me impressed and excited, I sadly do not see his (and other bright thinkers) ideas being taken up by the people who have the reins in their hands. This suggests to me that good ideas about how to run the systems are only part of the solution. There is also the problem of how to get the people with the good know-how in control, and how to make sure they stay "good" while in control. I see "good" in this instance as being defined as the quality which is demonstrated by those who strive to surmount the resources distribution problem (among other problems). This is a very difficult problem. I am not aware of anyone who has a realistic answer to this problem; an answer which addresses not only the systemic changes necessary for a solution, but also the way to get access to system control to make those changes. How do you get access to military budget control? Gary Murphy comments on my post: >> communism or socialism which clearly do not motivate the >> individual to strive for their own perfection. >> > How would you know? Fuller maintained the capitalist, or more my opinions on this matter were influenced by my readings of material produced by left AND right wingers about communist society. I see communism as a totalitarian system, where the government attempts to institute thought control, openly. I see such attempts in our society also, but it appears to me from my readings and from my conversations with people from the soviet union that the problem was much worse there. Particularly, those opinions have been reinforced by a conversations with a coworker from the soviet union regarding soviet culture. Perhaps I have come to the wrong conclusions... but I must believe my eyes and ears and until I get evidence to the contrary, I am stuck with the memories I have now. They tell me (as the ringing failure of the Soviet Union and the technologically (for the masses anyways) stagnant performance of communist china tells me) that communism is a Bad Model. It makes me a bit sad that you would assume I have no idea what I am talking about, Gary... perhaps you didn't mean it that way. I have no illusions that our society is egalitarian. I believe it is becoming less open all the time. I am not a patriot: I believe nationalism is a disease. However, the people from Tampa aren't SHELLING my offices here, and SO FAR, I haven't been arrested for speaking my mind in this country. I know this was not the case in the former USSR. Those factors and others do not (to MY mind) contribute to the creation of a good environment to promote individuals to strive for their own perfection as members of their culture, but rather to seek to evade or subvert their culture. But don't read that as meaning I am in the "USA #1" crowd. Indeed, we are poised to enter a police state in our "War On Drugs" (whatever that means... a sort of catchall label for Increased Gov't Authority) and I forsee a great decline in civil liberties and free speech in the next few years. Gary again... > the mandate of any government. If the homeless bother you, what are > YOU doing about it. I'm sorry Gary, although I feel I did learn some things from your posts, and the other posts, and I appreciate the suggested reading material (which will definitely go on my list) I feel compelled to say that this "well what are YOU doing about it" is a copout and distraction from the issue: WHERE did the problem come from? WHO is responsible? Is this problem the result of INTENTIONAL ACTS? I believe poverty is a form of violence. I believe that the excesses of the 1980's incubated a financial elite in this country and I believe they are directly, personally, legally responsible for many of the problems our country faces. I am not interested in punishing them, BUT they have the money and resources to frustrate my efforts, whatever those efforts turn out to be. I believe that you should find the ten foot hole in the ship before you try to bail with a teaspoon. SO... I reserve the right to choose when and how I enter the fray. In the meantime, I will continue to HELP the people I KNOW how I CAN. I hope you are not asking me to account for myself in that way; that would REALLY bum me out, because then we have degenerated to a level where a LOT of energy will be wasted in words. Perhaps you didn't mean the "what are YOU doing" thing this way, but I have seen it used with monotonous regularity in our culture as a diversion tactic, and my instincts have learned to recognize it as meaning (say 80% of the time) that I am nearing a chink in their armor. I am burnt out on humans, but I was once idealistic. I forsee replies along the lines of "well if you've given up, fine, be quiet and learn from us because we haven't given up; therefore our beliefs are valid" I can say that I AM going to keep "trying", but my view of what I should "try" for has changed dramatically, comprehensively, and negatively. Also the scope of change which I find myself thinking about has increased greatly. What I mean is: do we still live in a world that can be saved? It appears to me that our world may be on the verge of high technological control which could forever remove the possibility of fixing it. I guess my viewpoint stems largly from the fact that I see many of the world problems as being intentionally perpetrated. Even incomptetence, that great haven of the destroyers, boils down to intention: I believe that people KNOW when they are getting in over their heads, and I have observed that it is human nature to deny the inner voice which tells you to get help, because you may be called INCOMPETENT... so it sort of fulfills itself. Perhaps it is frustrating to you that someone who is hardly familiar with fuller's works shows up and starts shooting his mouth off... I came here hoping to get fuller's ideas in your own words, to help me make up my mind about the world's predicament and how I will approach it. I have so many teachers to listen to, books to read and lessons to learn, and only as much time as you have... I am forced to prioritize. I hope to find from your interpretations of Fuller's works that I can elevate his priority in my learning. Thank you all for your educational replies. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ assistant unix troll us geological survey ~ ~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov st petersburg florida usa ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~VISUALIZE CLOSE AIR SUPPORT~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:29:13 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Subject: Fuller's History of Industrialization In-Reply-To: Gary Lawrence Murphy's message of Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:57:51 -0400 <9209142118.AA04252@nic.ddn.mil> >> On Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:57:51 -0400, >> Gary Lawrence Murphy said: Gary> A far better "work ethic" is Camus' "True generosity toward the ^^^^^^^^^^^ Gary> future" accomplished by giving your all for the present. The Japanese ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Gary> point, his own life as proof. If you are being useful to the maximum ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Gary> need you that makes you successful; effort alone just won't do it, and ^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm doing my best not to quote you out of context. The highlighted phrases above indicate that you don't mean effort alone, but productive effort on the part of an individual. Not all individuals are motivated to be productive; I believe very highly in Theory Y management, and I don't think that people like that constitute anything like a majority, but they do exist. Another poster said: > The part of Critical Path that bugs me is that when I see people willing to > let others support them without *any* desire to participate in activities > beneficial to society -- in fact some are even willing to *hurt* society > and still feel they have earned a welcome place in it -- I get upset. I think he and I have met some of the same people. I get more than upset; I get damned resentful when I see someone who thinks the world owes him some kind of living just because he has a body temp of 98.6. Gary> You don't talk to these people much, do you. In Fuller's view, once Gary> they no longer think they _must_ "earn a living", ghetto kids, being Gary> as rich (ie fabulously) as any other kid on the planet, will cease to Gary> feel they are disadvantaged. You make a comment later in this post that the most important job will be that of Consumer. Where does that leave the Producer of all this wealth? Where is all this wealth going to come from? Gary> Why do we have repressive regimes? Greed. "Greed" in this case is desire for political power, which is not necessarily the same thing as economic power. I'm paraphrasing Ayn Rand here, but if you can't tell the difference between the power of a gun and the power of a dollar, then you deserve to learn the difference on your own hide. Gary> Why do we have have-nots? Greed. I'm sorry, but not everything on earth is the fault of greed. I'm quite greedy, and I've never done one thing to keep anyone in the ghetto from getting out of the ghetto. Gary> Like Pierre Elliot Trudeau's thesis, the most important job will be Gary> Consumer. It is the flow of goods and the exchange of capital that Gary> makes it all work now, and some bright young exec with his Lotus 1-2-3 Gary> is bound to discover what Universe has known all along. These goods and the capital you speak of don't come out of thin air; they need Producers to bring them into existence. Some producers are motivated by a desire to improve the human condition, but I guarantee you that quite a few are not; they are more interested in their little corner of the world, and there is no reason they shouldn't be. I am not some reactionary pining away for the good old days of the robber-barons, but I am a capitalist and proud of it. I'm well aware of what cooperation between individuals can do; the Internet is the most astounding example of such cooperation I've ever seen. I do my work for two reasons; love and money. I'm paid well to be a programmer, but I'd be flattered as hell if the folks at (say) the GNU Project would include something I wrote as part of their free software base. The only reason they would have to accept something of mine is recognition of its merit, and that means more to me than money. Gary> Welfare would also be obsolete, and all the kids material needs met. How this is going to happen without some disguised redistribution scheme is beyond me. Another poster said: > I just feel that the world needs to have some kind of a reward and > punishment system so that behaviors that benefit society will be > encouraged. Gary> Just so long as you agree with which behaviours have official Gary> sanction? Please keep your witch-hunting off this list. We here are Gary> interested in a better world, not more of the same. I most certainly do want a say in which behaviours have official sanction. I hope I'm not misunderstanding you here; feel free to correct me if I am. I wish to be free to produce, and to keep the right to dispose of what I produce. That's the definition of a free man. If that makes me a witch-hunter, so be it; I'm a witch-hunter. -- Karl Vogel Internet: vogel@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] 1-513-255-7383 UUCP: vogel%c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil@uunet.uu.net Control Data Sys. Inc. ...!uunet!c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil!vogel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:25:00 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Seth Subject: Fuller at Future Studies Program I am pleased to say that the University of Houston-Clear Lake now has Fuller's chapter on the World Game from _Critical_Path_ as required reading in their Introductory course on Studies of the Future. They also will be reading an article by Barbara Marx Hubbard about Bucky which was published in thFuturist. Its a small measure, but an important one. For your interest, the University of Houston-Clear Lake has a graduate program in Studies of the Future. Future studies is its own department, and as such is the only such one in the country. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:17:02 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Holder Subject: Free Enterprise upon re-reading my message of yesterday, I would like to add that I believe free enterprise (the setup where individuals personally take the risks and personally reap the rewards) is a very good system, in terms of promoting efficiency and cutting waste. maybe I'm wrong here. I have seen several posts here which say that it's hard to get workers to care for anything but their own benefits. It seems that human tendancy would make for a predictable, reproducable avenue for changing your workers. Find out what they REALLY want, then only give it to them when they do what YOU really want. I'm sure it's not so simple in practice, but my overwhelming feeling is "what do you expect them to care about? your benefit?" If they get a stake in the enterprise, (share of ownership, and therefore profits and liability/culpability) they will begin to care more about its success. I would also like to temper my remarks about "The Rich", an often maligned group. I have known some rich people who were very horrible people, and I have known some well-off people who were very, very admirable people. Most of the truly rich ($1 mil net worth or greater) people I have met have been very selfish insensitive people, but that is just my personal experience. It's not the money that bothers me, it's the attitude. HOWEVER, I believe that given the REAL WORLD CONSTRAINTS involved, I think that entreprenuers are vital to our social health, and if they are successful, I think that means they are GENERALLY doing something right, as far as the society- creature is concerned. there, I just wanted to clear that up, sorry about all the tangential issues... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ assistant unix troll us geological survey ~ ~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov st petersburg florida usa ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~VISUALIZE CLOSE AIR SUPPORT~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:42:13 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Jamer Subject: World Game Info Awhile ago I wrote to the World Game Institute for some info, and they sent a packet of brochures, and on one of them was a listing of some kind of 'tour' of the world game.... Well, it so happens that one of the dates was for Oct 10 (my bday, incidently) in Lexington, KY, and I was wondering if anyone had any information as to what to expect from it, or how I could get involved? Are there any members of the World Game Institute on the list? Thanks, Jamer. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:18:00 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Seth Subject: RE: World Game Info Last time I played the World Game (some 5 years ago) it was a big map of the earth that rested on the floor. Everyone took off there shoes and stood on it representing 1% of humanity for each person. Thus, 100 people stood on the map, or 50 people if it was 2% each. You stand perportionally in the appropriate contries and resources are passed out to the people in those countries also according to the actual portions that exist in the world. Thus 30 or so people crammed on India got a total of two and halfs loafs of bread (representing 2.5% of world food consumption) while the 2 or 3 people in the U.S. got 30 loafs of bread ( I don't remember the actual numbers but you should get the idea). It was very revealing, and fun. If it is near your town I would go. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:12:00 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: RE: Fuller's History of Industrialization Karl the Capatalist (smile when you say that) , the gread monger that he is, is in no way responcible for anybodyelses life, or position there in,.. his greed never hert nobody....but being inmpovriged is hurting alot of people people who don't think about "Like , wow, I wonder if I'm going to spend my time getting a degree in polo, or computers?" Prity easy to sit infront of your computer and spew the holy script of capatalism.... I, by the way, only have access to this network..and this computer vie a local program where I can use a public terminal...call it wellfair, but I would call it realocation of wealth, so pour people like me can access a world they would otherwise never dreamed of existed... And Karl says "redistrabuetion" like it was a dirty word.... Yes, Gread is responicible for a lot...(alot)?..mostly keeping the fat happy, and the hungry cold....I have a fee;ing that if Karl the Capata;ist was in charge in my parts, I would not have this worm terminal to huddle in front of against the intelectual cold... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:10:29 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: History, Industrialization and Political Agenda Big topics (whew!) and Big Guns --- I hope I'm not out so far I crack the limb I stand on! :-) In the latecomer's corner, we have Robert Holder (RH) and Karl Vogel (KV), and I want to thank both for playing Devil's Advocate as they raise many of the typical reactions of those unfamiliar with Fuller's opus. To begin with a common misconception, Robert writes: RH> although the little reading of fuller's work I have done has RH> left me impressed and excited, I sadly do not see his (and RH> other bright thinkers) ideas being taken up by the people who RH> have the reins in their hands. This points to one of the most powerful aspects of Fuller's Earth. In mathematical circles they will say new ideas do not conquer, they grow; older rank and file have too much vested interest in the status quo and are reluctant to change, whereas the youth are already disadvantaged in the status quo and have little to fear. Taking chances, they make discoveries. Having made the discovery, they seek to comprehend it, and in discovery and comprehension, mistakes are implicit. In making mistakes, whole new vistas appear. The people with the reins in their hands are not immortal. This situation has not changed in anyone's recorded history. RH> This suggests to me that good ideas about how to run the systems RH> are only part of the solution. Fuller talked about 'gestation periods' and went to great pains to measure these in all aspects of human endeavour. For example, the time between discovery and wide-spread use in the computer hardware business is about 2 years. In housing it is about 50. For this reason, Fuller was unconcerned with 'commercial success' and more intent on making the discovery, thus setting inevitables in motion. Look around at the new mini-vans, then hark back to the Dymaxion Car patents. Fuller had another 'rule' about the spread of knowledge: wide-spread conversions only occur at crisis periods. When human beings first notice old habits are not being successful, first they do them again, HARDER, and only as a last resort do they change, but changing and adapting _is_ what we, as creatures, do best. RH> How do you get access to military budget control? Who needs it. Let the boys play with their toys. They sow their own downfall, and in the precess, their spending fantastically grants us all benefits (if they don't kill us, that is). Even Somalians who won't make it through tonight have benefited in their lives by the Military Rule that now strangles them: the Hawks have left literate soldiers, airports, roads, mechanics and engineers in their wake. As the youth grow themselves into higher positions, we may even someday see there is nothing intrinsically wrong with Military ways and begin just as earnestly applying them toward Livingry. The same is true of Corporate controls, and we should keep in mind here that Corporate money and power are _not_ identical with American Interests; a glance at your Forbes listings will show you most of the money has long since moved off-shore and is American only in their pretentiously flying the flag in front of their Bermuda towers. Still, as is evidenced in several industries like computers and electronics, even the densest executive can see how the bottom line benefits from cooperation. There are two sides to the industrial equation, cost and return. If you can cut the cost you win, and if you boost the return you win. World-distribution means world-scale manufacturing and lower costs. World-sales means volume increase, and as technology and communications adapt, world-sales requires as much or less effort than local sales, the return is up, and you win. If you double the length of your ship, the surface area of drag against the engines is quadrupled, but the capacity increases eight-fold. If you can get your 'competitor' to add your products, their sales staff is yours, and you win, and they win because that is one item they no longer have the overhead or risks in making, and their line seems expanded. Chrysler and Mitsubushi, Coke and McDonalds. Grade school math, well within the reach of even a capitalist. RH> I see communism as a totalitarian system ... RH> my conversations with people from the soviet union ... Just an aside here, I don't think I ever said anything about communism being any better, but for the record, I'd say Soviet Communism was as communist as American Capitalism was capitalist. Both are to each as Tang is to orange juice. In science we say nothing is ever a failure, as it can always be used as a bad example. I found Chomsky's remarks about the two really being the same system amusing: he felt it would be so easy to 'flip' our perceptions and have them as friends or enemies as politics demand. But back to Fuller (who is a lot more fun and a lot less nasty than Chomsky), there is, in all his visions of the future, an implicit 'force' he called Second-Class Evolution. First-Class is what gave us the posable thumb and our information-storing, pattern-distilling, sensory-filtering and contrast-enhancing brain. Second class is just as oblivious to where we think we are going or why. Second Class evolution brought you world-literacy, airports, railways, highways, medicine (from not wanting to "send the boys home" from Europe or 'Nam, preferring to patch them there, put them back on-line, and pocket the cost of shipping in a replacement) ... a pretty impressive list even for the Amazon farmer and his german-steel knife. RH> I'm sorry Gary, although I feel I did learn some things from your RH> posts, and the other posts, and I appreciate the suggested reading RH> material (which will definitely go on my list) I feel compelled to RH> say that this "well what are YOU doing about it" is a copout and RH> distraction from the issue: WHERE did the problem come from? WHO RH> is responsible? Is this problem the result of INTENTIONAL ACTS? No, searching for causes is the cop-out. Passing the buck to people who are no longer in office is a cop-out. Rolling up your sleaves and saying, "Ok, what needs to be done" is the only reasonable option. RH> you should find the ten foot hole in the ship before you try to bail RH> with a teaspoon. We found the hole: it is called Apathy and Sloth. We found the patch, it is called Doing What Needs To Be Done. Bad news is, you still only get a teaspoon, but if you remember the story about Stone Soup, you will see why those like myself, struggling for years, get excited to see newcomers like you wander up and say, "Yeah, sure, but _where_ did that stone come from?" If you've brought some carrots, I'll fill your head with magic stone stories ;-) RH> In the meantime, I will continue to HELP the people RH> I KNOW how I CAN. I hope you are not asking me to account for myself RH> in that way; that would REALLY bum me out, because then we have RH> degenerated to a level where a LOT of energy will be wasted in words. Please, do your own accounting! The point is, each time we add a pair of hands to the task, the work goes a little faster. Does the missionary stop working with lepers because he cannot cure them? It was once said that when you believe you will fail, and then try unsuccessfully, you must suffer twice. Is it not better to just try and suffer only once? And what if, as the evidence suggests, we _are_ succeeding? There is always more than we can ever know, knowledge is like that, and I personally do not believe in 100th monkey business; information theory is enough to explain exponential growth. RH> I can say that I AM going to keep "trying", but my view of what I should RH> "try" for has changed dramatically, comprehensively, and negatively. This is not really our concern here. Read David K Reynolds and meet me over on sci.psychology ;-) RH> What I mean is: do we still live in a world that can be saved? All the time! It is what is called the 'human condition' and I have yet to find any evidence it has ever been otherwise; Buddha's last words were, "Strive on with dilligence." RH> Perhaps it is frustrating to you that someone who is hardly familiar with RH> fuller's works shows up and starts shooting his mouth off... I came here RH> hoping to get fuller's ideas in your own words, to help me make up RH> my mind about the world's predicament and how I will approach it. And you asked excellent questions and posed excellent problems, thank you! I look forward to hearing your reactions to Fuller's plans once you've look at the proper references, and I hope I haven't biased you against them with my arrogant noviceness. Karl also wrote about the 'motivation' required to put Fuller's vision in motion, and I'd like to state first that I see 'motivation' as a circular argument: we say he was 'motivated' to write because we saw his posting; we say he posted because he was 'motivated'. I only believe in doing, because from the doing I have empirical evidence. Any, on to Karl's concerns ... KV> I'm doing my best not to quote you out of context. The highlighted KV> phrases above indicate that you don't mean effort alone, but KV> productive effort on the part of an individual. Not all individuals KV> are motivated to be productive; I believe very highly in Theory Y KV> management, and I don't think that people like that constitute KV> anything like a majority, but they do exist. Let's clear up a myth. It goes like this: the world's output grows arithmetically while population (because it is so much fun) grows exponentially, ego, we will always need strong armed forces to meter the resources to ensure it is not stolen, and those that do the metering are to be rewarded because of their noble position. Malthus gave us this in 1605 (or so) and then it was true. Fuller was asked to do the same study Malthus had done (for the same reason: the Navy wanted to know), but his conclusion was very different. Malthus lived in a time with little communication and virtually no technology beyond shipbuilding and even that done by methods traditional for centuries. Malthus could not have been expected to recognize the slow growth in the science of his time as the beginnings of an exponential curve. He could not forsee mass-production, plastic injection-moulding, freeze-drying... all those leaps in our living standards Fuller described as 'ephemerialization', the getting of ever more performance for ever less investment. Marx, too, could not have forseen that the invention of the refridgerator would obsolesce the need for the worker to be near the source of food production, and in these modern times of Knowledge Power, the clear trend is to dump land-holdings. In Fuller's future, no one cares if someone wants to be unproductive (and in my experience from studying Morita therapy, this feeling normally passes of its own or can be dispelled by Naikan reflections unless the person is being externally reinforced) KV> I get damned resentful when I see someone who thinks the world KV> owes him some kind of living just because he has a body temp of 98.6. Like I said, I find this most often a passing feeling, but let's suppose you are right and people really can be labelled for life (what a thought!). Who cares. If there is more than enough to go around, let them veg-out and die off. We'll even feed and clothe them just to be nice, as there is no shortage and it would otherwise go to waste. Anecdotally, when my wife was in traditional psychotherapy, I was talking to my Morita teacher about how she was being led to believe she was 'damaged' and somehow so inferior, the best she could do was laze about all day, visit friends when she wanted to, eat, sleep or do whatever she wanted whenever. In my anguish, I felt a little jealous, or so I thought, and asked why shouldn't she want to continue like that, not a care or responsibility in the world. My teacher, a Zen nun by profession, leaned forward and asked me, "Would you?". No. I'd get restless and start doing. Periods of unemployment are always my busiest, and I still search in vain for a job that doesn't interfere with my work ;-) KV> You make a comment later in this post that the most important job KV> will be that of Consumer. Where does that leave the Producer of all KV> this wealth? Where is all this wealth going to come from? >From the result of that industrial equation, in fact, the result is already here, we are just waiting for the Old Boys to kick off and leave it to us. We are waiting until enough of us have positions where the decisions are made. Why do you thing the market-place is suddenly after your "green" dollars? Conservation and ecology are not really new concerns, it's just the Boomers now have the checkbooks. KV> Gary> Why do we have repressive regimes? Greed. KV> KV> "Greed" in this case is desire for political power, which is not KV> necessarily the same thing as economic power. I'm paraphrasing Ayn KV> Rand here, but if you can't tell the difference between the power of a KV> gun and the power of a dollar, then you deserve to learn the KV> difference on your own hide. Not very convincing argument coming from a country where the military is most often used to protect economic interests (in the name of the economy or trade liberty). KV> Gary> Why do we have have-nots? Greed. KV> KV> I'm sorry, but not everything on earth is the fault of greed. I'm KV> quite greedy, and I've never done one thing to keep anyone in the KV> ghetto from getting out of the ghetto. I don't know what you sell, but imagine if all those ghetto kids bought one! Then see if you can understand why Japanese companies are wooing third-world markets by picking up the tab on their debt (although I've never understood how we could plunder their countries for centuries and then say they owe us money) KV> These goods and the capital you speak of don't come out of thin air; KV> they need Producers to bring them into existence. Some producers are KV> motivated by a desire to improve the human condition, but I guarantee KV> you that quite a few are not; they are more interested in their little KV> corner of the world, and there is no reason they shouldn't be. I will go further and propose even the altruistic ones are doing it for themselves. If you read what I write, there is room for this to spare. The motivation will be wealth, and the surprise will be the gains from making others wealthy: Everybody wins. KV> I am not some reactionary pining away for the good old days of the KV> robber-barons, but I am a capitalist and proud of it. I'm well aware KV> of what cooperation between individuals can do; the Internet is the KV> most astounding example of such cooperation I've ever seen. I do my KV> work for two reasons; love and money. I'm paid well to be a KV> programmer, but I'd be flattered as hell if the folks at (say) the GNU KV> Project would include something I wrote as part of their free software KV> base. The only reason they would have to accept something of mine is KV> recognition of its merit, and that means more to me than money. Exactly. And if you no longer had that need for money? Here's what McLuhan saw coming: Banks like to tally interest (see Fuller for reasons why), and Industry likes to see capital in motion; it is the motion of the goods that makes the world-society function, and the motion off the capital that currently hooks the gamblers (although, to be fair, and again read into Fuller for why, the very act of incorporation removes all the risk from this sort of gambling). The banks will soon see it is better to have clientele in debt than solvent, and they will realize, as industrialization streamlines and guaranteed-income becomes neccessary, most anyone will always be able to "pay-off" on their loans. The Banks will stumble along for a few decades tracking the individual balances, but soon they will notice that those few who default by dying with a debt are easily offset by the increased volume of the trading. They will play their papergames all day, and the average joe will just put his card in an ATM and take what he thinks he needs. WE ALREADY HAVE THIS! Banks, in the history of banking, have never been so lax with bad debts, and in much of the world, they can't even do anything about it. Back to GNU, what do you need to do today toward getting your package in their catalogue? KV> Gary> Welfare would also be obsolete, and all the kids material needs met. KV> KV> How this is going to happen without some disguised redistribution KV> scheme is beyond me. I am beginning to see that we already have much of this in a disguised form. As the volume of data records increases, Welfare is finding it increasing difficult to track its clients. As governments start to recognize how the Giants have bled them into bankruptcy, I think Welfare will wither and vanish, but I also think the corporations may just recognize the industrial equation factors and take the Japanese lead in extending the benefits to employees. What I see as the ugly possiblity is this producing an elitism such as in Vonnegut's Player Piano, but I think the overwhelming advantages of wealth distribution will make this at most a temporary last-stand of the Dinosaurs. KV> I most certainly do want a say in which behaviours have official KV> sanction. I hope I'm not misunderstanding you here; feel free to KV> correct me if I am. I wish to be free to produce, and to keep the KV> right to dispose of what I produce. That's the definition of a free KV> man. If that makes me a witch-hunter, so be it; I'm a witch-hunter. Sorry if you took this as such. No, I was taking exception to the notion of passing out punishment for crimes of non-conformity, and I think it was said before that North America, while by no means free of this sort of oppression, is by no means the world leader. This, of course, ignores the stat placing the US now above South Africa for prisoners per capita, but I'd still say the US maximum-security prisoners are probably better served than many less serious offenders in other countries. Anyway, I have strayed very far afield from trying to portray a strictly Fuller's Eye View, but I hope I have at least interested you enough to check a few books out of the library. In a nutshell, for the sake of the concerns of these letters, I would say Fuller's view is not anti-anything in a political sense, as Fuller did not believe in partisan politics --- true and lasting revolution always comes from technology and the future comes to those who can master it. -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 19:21:40 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: World Game Info In-Reply-To: <92Sep15.174922edt.10285@mail.uunet.ca> (Gary Lawrence Murphy) In <92Sep15.174922edt.10285@mail.uunet.ca> PET101@ukcc.uky.edu writes: > > Are there any members of the World Game Institute on the list? > I'm not a member, but I did have the opportunity to participate in one of these road shows, and I will say up front that it scared me; I now believe North America does not stand a chance! What follows is a report I made for my dear friend and long-time Bucky supporter Udo Kasemets. It is in LaTeX format, but still should be legible for those of you not yet equiped with Knuth's typesetter. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++cut here++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \documentstyle{article} % Specifies the document style. \def\WorldGame{{{\tt WorldGame}\raise.7ex\hbox{\tiny TM}\ }} % The preamble begins here. \title{Environment \WorldGame} % Declares the document's title. \author{Carleton University/Pugwash} % Declares the author's name. \date{March 16, 1991} % Deleting this command produces today's date. \begin{document} % End of preamble and beginning of text. \maketitle % Produces the title. News of this \WorldGame came nonchalontly over electronic news: \tt \begin{verbatim} >From mag@Sandelman.OCUnix.On.Ca Wed Mar 6 15:51:58 1991 From: mag@Sandelman.OCUnix.On.Ca (Michael Gifford) Newsgroups: ott.general Subject: The Environmental World Game Summary: Student Simulation Game at Baker Hall, Carleton U Keywords: Pugwash, simulation, world, Student, Baker Hall Date: 6 Mar 91 05:03:08 GMT Distribution: Ottawa Organization: Sandelman Software, Debugging Department, Ottawa Hi The Canadian Student Pugwash is sponcoring an event at Baker Hall, Carleton U, within a National Conference. This part of the conference is free and open to students here in Ottawa. A 3 to 4 hour simulation with 100 to 300 people, played on a 40x70 foot world map. Participants will engage in actions that help them learn about the environment. Its problems, options, and interconnections from a global and local perspective. Durring the game, players are given the power and opportunity to solve the world's problems as well as create the kind of world that they want to live in. Because participants learn about the environment from an active and empowered perspective, the game serves as a testing ground for later action by individuals and groups. As a participatory event, the Environmental World Game has been designed to put players in charge of the world. The event is not an academic exercise, but rather about changing the world. 1:30 to 5:00 Saturday, March 16th Baker Hall, Carleton University. For more info either reply to this letter, respond to my email address, or call Mike Gifford @ 563 - 0176 or Canadian Student Pugwash @ 234 - 3622 -- Mike Gifford -- 2nd year Integrated Science Studies.. ** -- I am normal.. And everyone else is wierd.. / -- Mike_Gifford@cc.sfu.ca/mag@sandelman.ocunix.on.ca \_/ -- attending Carleton University, in Ottawa.. \end{verbatim} \rm With the new moon overhead in Pisces, Linton and I made our may from our drop-off point, through the maze of campus tunnels to a canvas-walled room in the Carlton Unicenter where we filed in with about a hundred others. At the door, we were issued with a stats chart for North America, 1970, the two of us representing three fifths the total population, 6\% of the world total. \section{Set and Setting} Inside Porter Hall, a vinyl-coated, dymaxion sky-ocean map two meters to the icosa-edge was taped to the floor with the north pole at roughly center court of the gymnasium sized hall. Our guides began with their preamble on time-scales, beginning at antarctica with geological time and adding the hydrosphere, lithosphere, flora and fauna at proportional points along the long edge, eventually crowding the map with population in the last few millimeters. Overhead, relevant statistics and key points in European history were synchronously projected, prompting Linton to ask, often at first and less as he grasped it, when he and I would climb on board. Before the game began, hats were issued to represent each 2\% of humanity, with additional hats for the biosphere's players and the United Nations, with those left over becoming the media. Plastic food, fuel candles, technology coupons and \WorldGame money were then issued in proportion, the current stats on production and consumption displayed and a brief recess taken while each area decided on a game plan to obtain their projected needs. In these discussions, those previously issued illiteracy cards were kept mute. To gain some perspective, we were then asked a number of questions and asked to rise if, for example, we had more than 3 candles per hat. A surprisingly large group stood when asked for those with at least one food prop per hat but no fuel. Similar questions most conspicuously singled out we North Americans, and Linton, having at first asked to hold our excess hats and food, was beginning to perhaps regret his fortune, and was most definately tired of all the standing and sitting. Following this, the overhead projection changed to a chart of current annual consumption and supply values for each of the issued commodities listed by region. Each line ended with a blank column for each `team' to fill in their standings at the end of the game. Before beginning the first round, we were asked to list features we felt would make the world a perfect place. We were asked for only positive features, things to be added to the world, rather than for items we'd wish removed or negatively affected. We offered a number of seemingly wild requests from a wide spectrum of interests. We offered cessation of hostilities, world-wide travel and trade, complete literacy and health and wealth for all. Each suggestion was noted on a transparency and the game was set to begin. \section{Playing the Game} Each round of the game was to follow a simple pattern: \begin{enumerate} \item mass pandemonium for some period of time \item a complete halt in world-wide transactions while everyone watched the media report. \end{enumerate} Transactions would include deals made to further a group's stated objectives, but in keeping with the environmental theme of the session, the transactions would also include warnings and citations made by the environment and deals made either directly or through agencies such as the U.N.\ to avert biospheric foreclosures. In preparing each deal, a form was provided to list the trouble to be addressed, the proposed solution and the impact this solutions might have. Once filled in, forms were submitted to the United Nations for pricing. If affordable, the fee was then to be returned to the U.N.\ where the deal would be ratified. In the case of projects meant to appease the environment, the U.N.\ would specify the cost in green technology credits and/or billions of dollars or some fantastic number of old {\em standard}\ technology credits and even more dollars. Other regional objectives, such as improving literacy, would require an appointment with a \WorldGame official. Beyond this, there were no other rules. North America does not stand a chance, no matter how philanthropic we wished to be. We simply do not have the manpower to handle the overwhelming traffic of a world stage. We also learned the world at large is not in dire need of our food, our fuel or even our technology, but they do need our money, and we have scads of it. We saw a graphic demonstration of why so many North American business people travel: the office is nuts at home. By comparison, Europe, Japan, and the emerging third world in South America and India have all the same resources we have, but they have very pressing needs to motivate them, and they have enough of a population to apply themselves to serving the world markets. Here we have the three of us frantically scribbling out paper-work, running back and forth to the U.N., making hurried world-tours, answering the endless line of complaints, trying to make at least a little sense from the overhead resource-by-region table and, on rare and completely wasted occasions, finding a few minutes to speak with the press or to fill in the proper forms. The others have ample staff and can afford to pair each problem with a person who can pursue it at their leasure. And they did. By the end of the game, quite by accident and with a lot of help from Linton's last-minute wheeling and dealing, we had made our objectives. We had aimed to maintain our food consumption, complete our literacy to 100\% and even, in good North American style, to consume just a little more power, and all of these were just met, but not without cost and a long list of outstanding complaints. Two of three rounds had us tied up attempting to appease the United Nations with major environmental campaigns many times larger than any our competitors could afford. These deals, to be made in the public view live on TV, never made it to the newscasts and, on the following rounds, we'd return to the U.N. to find the ante upped considerably. In the mean time, we had accumulated more warnings and death warrants from the biosphere than any other region, certainly more per capita, while our neighbours to the south found they had such surplus of green technology, they could trade for smiles. Not that we didn't do some good. Somewhere in the morasse of scribbled forms, we did buy some tiny amounts of African food surplus for fantastic amounts to cover the penalty fees levied on each failed literacy test. Had any of our environmental deals solidified, we would have clearly scored some bonus points for the dramatic clean-slate, at a cost of complete and immediate conversion to non-fossil fuels and some few hundreds of billions. We'd have done so much, had there been time. Linton spent the game running reconaisance to find those few candles we sought and to line up trade deals. As the only one under 18, he was a little too shy run some of the errands we so desparately needed, such as running proposals, price-lists and payments to the U.N., but as the afternoon progressed, he became more comfortable and actually found several important last-minute deals. I'm not really sure how our compatriot fared: On each return home to pick up more forms, we'd find a jumbled stack of environmental warnings, un-ratified proposals, loosely filed successful deals and the ever-comforting but rapidly diminishing bale of cash. In the final media report, we learned the reason for our bad press coverage. At one interview, I had been asked for a bribe, but had foolishly thought the fellow was joking. Linton asked if this was why, when he and Carla had been interviewed by the TV crew at their lemonade stand, the clip was never shown. \section{Beyond the Game} Following the final news, the props and hats were stowed away, the forms collected for disposal and the map cleared of players in preparation for a demonstration in numbers. Beginning at Antarctica, 10,000 black bingo chips were poured over the lands, proportional in area to the size of the ozone hole. A further 20,000 were spread out over South and North America to depict the total clear-cut area, and 20,000 more over the remaining continents to show both the total number of nuclear warheads (53,000) and their proportional area of total devastation, i.e. total. In the commentary, the chips were also said to illustrate proportions such as the total number of blacks living under apartheid in South Africa, and also the proportion of literate people. At the closing, we returned to our transparency notes of features for a perfect world. By this time, the list included food and shelter, benefits and luxuries and a general world-wide {\em lasse-faire} complacentcy to be enjoyed by all. This list, according to the commentary, was not substantially different from those collected at the other runs of the \WorldGame, and this had prompted them to price the list. At the bottom line, a total cost for complete world luxury came to about 50 billion dollars, or, as was graphically depicted, about one quarter of the current total expenditures on the military. Finally, we were asked rhetorically if we knew how one person might begin to take our present world toward the dream: Kneeling to pick up just one bingo chip and return it to its box, our commentator recalled the Chinese proverb \begin{quote} ``Journey of a thousand miles, begins with a single step.'' \end{quote} Our map was quickly cleared, a task Linton especially enjoyed, jumping right in completely free of all shyness. After the crowds had run off to catch some bus back to the host convention, and while I talked with the \WorldGame organizers, Linton continued to help with the map, carefully removing the tape and freeing the sections for packing. \section{epilog} Some months later, Linton came home from school with a new set of {\em Micro-Machine}\ cars. He explained in detail how one friend had wanted to trade his cars, but didn't want more cars in return and how a second friend had had some action figures he was willing to trade for a few cars \ldots \end{document} ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++cut here++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 23:49:42 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Future World Leader!! Subject: Re: Fuller's History of Industrialization Gosh. I don't know if you are living vicariously through some pathetic old left superhero comic you churned up at the local revolutionary bookstore, but you sure sound like a pathetic milk sop. You are engaging in and utilizing the vocabulary of evasion. You speak like a looter. Why *should* you have a terminal? Go out and be creative, break your back, scam yourself some money the honest, all-American way! No sob stories here! Go buy yourself a book about love, work and honor! Build a dome! And take little pills to enhance synaptic super energy. Eat apple pie, and love God always! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 05:35:42 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "Claude W. Van Horn" Subject: Re: Free Enterprise In article <9209151417.AA08173@whiplash.er.usgs.gov> Robert Holder writes: >upon re-reading my message of yesterday, I would like to >add that I believe free enterprise (the setup where individuals >personally take the risks and personally reap the rewards) is >a very good system, in terms of promoting efficiency and > >my overwhelming feeling is "what do you expect them to care >about? your benefit?" If they get a stake in the enterprise, If you work for me, I expect you to care that my business makes a profit and grows so that you can keep getting a paycheck, and so you can participate in the growth by getting raises and benefits. If You make $500 a week for my company, and I pay you $500 a week in salary, comissions and benefits, how can my company grow? In fact I would lose money at that rate, because I would have lost the money I spent training and helping you succeed. You need to make at least 2 to 3 times as much for me as I pay you. That way we can both grow. This is under the capitalistic system. Under Bucky's system, You and I both get what we need to live and be comfortable. We are among all other people on the earth who share the resources of the planet - which are sufficient to support everyone for as long as needed if we work together. You and I decide we want to work together because we can solve a problem the world or our neighbors have better than it is being solved by current methods. We agree to combine our efforts, solve the problem, and feel great about having participated in a wonderfull solution. Maybe the person or people we solved the problem for will have a solution for one of our problems. I love the Bucky idea -- I hope we can get to that level of cooperation. I am afraid, however, that there will be some element in that society who will say to you and me "you solved it for him, now you have to solve it for me." "You have to solve it for me NOW. and if you ask anything in return, I will report you to the generosity police. So put down that book and get busy." Or there may be an element that goes to the person we helped and steal the solution from them (presumably a thing -- not an idea). I do not know how to combat this unproductive activity. > >I would also like to temper my remarks about "The Rich", an often >maligned group. I have known some rich people who were very >horrible people, and I have known some well-off people who were >very, very admirable people. Most of the truly rich ($1 mil net >worth or greater) people I have met have been very selfish >insensitive people, but that is just my personal experience. >It's not the money that bothers me, it's the attitude. > Karl (a few posts back) said that selfishness is good - to the extent that the selfish person realizes that by helping others around him/her, they raise thier own standard of living. It is the GREEDY people who pull everything down to build themselves up. If I am selfish, I will do a great job cleaning your rug, because I want you to do a good job fixing my car. A GREEDY person will steal both your rug and my car, and complain about the cigarette burns in the fabric. (Sorry Karl, I think I got carried away with my paraphraise of your reply -- correct if needed!) I too am an Ayn Rand fan, in addition to being a Bucky Fuller fan. Nwo THERE is a confusing combination!! Van!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 05:02:12 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "Claude W. Van Horn" Subject: Re: Fuller's History of Industrialization In article <9209150129.AA04359@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil> Contr Karl Vogel writes: >>> On Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:57:51 -0400, >>> Gary Lawrence Murphy said: > productive effort on the part of an individual. Not all individuals > are motivated to be productive; I believe very highly in Theory Y > >Van!!, Another poster said: >> The part of Critical Path that bugs me is that when I see people willing to >> let others support them without *any* desire to participate in activities >> beneficial to society -- in fact some are even willing to *hurt* society >> and still feel they have earned a welcome place in it -- I get upset. > > I think he and I have met some of the same people. I get more than > upset; I get damned resentful when I see someone who thinks the world > owes him some kind of living just because he has a body temp of 98.6. thanks for comming to my rescue, Karl, I replied to Gary more fully in E-mail, but to sumarize: Critical Path presents a wonderfull future that I hope can someday be a reality. I will still be one of the "working" folks, because I love what I do when I help people and businesses. I am good at it, Thet praise me with their words, and occasionally with their dollars. Some people's mentality would make it dificult to exist in the world fuller visualizes. I need to read and re-read Gary's comments to make sure the mental barriers I throw up to defend my views are justified. (see? I said that wrong -- should be to SEE IF the mental barriers ...) The utopian world has been a frequent subject of science fiction novels, and classics alike. It seems they have never worked out because some non-utopian person fouls up the deal for everyone. I don't know if this fear is realistic or just a universal paranoya we capitalists have so we can feel usefull. In the mean time, I've got to read the book again a few more times to see if I can reconcile theory with reality. And in the mean time .. Thanks again for your support I am not alone. I am not alone I am ... Van!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 09:10:09 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Holder Subject: MEASURED thank you gary and van for your thoughtful, measured replies. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ assistant unix troll us geological survey ~ ~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov st petersburg florida usa ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~VISUALIZE CLOSE AIR SUPPORT~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 13:49:12 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "The Caterpillar Cannot Understand The Butterfly" Subject: [mag@Sandelman.OCUnix.On.Ca: The Environmental World Game] From: mag@Sandelman.OCUnix.On.Ca (Michael Gifford) Newsgroups: ott.general Subject: The Environmental World Game Summary: Student Simulation Game at Baker Hall, Carleton U Keywords: Pugwash, simulation, world, Student, Baker Hall Date: 6 Mar 91 05:03:08 GMT Distribution: Ottawa Organization: Sandelman Software, Debugging Department, Ottawa Hi The Canadian Student Pugwash is sponcoring an event at Baker Hall, Carleton U, within a National Conference. This part of the conference is free and open to students here in Ottawa. A 3 to 4 hour simulation with 100 to 300 people, played on a 40x70 foot world map. Participants will engage in actions that help them learn about the environment. Its problems, options, and interconnections from a global and local perspective. Durring the game, players are given the power and opportunity to solve the world's problems as well as create the kind of world that they want to live in. Because participants learn about the environment from an active and empowered perspective, the game serves as a testing ground for later action by individuals and groups. As a participatory event, the Environmental World Game has been designed to put players in charge of the world. The event is not an academic exercise, but rather about changing the world. 1:30 to 5:00 Saturday, March 16th Baker Hall, Carleton University. For more info either reply to this letter, respond to my email address, or call Mike Gifford @ 563 - 0176 or Canadian Student Pugwash @ 234 - 3622 -- Mike Gifford -- 2nd year Integrated Science Studies.. ** -- I am normal.. And everyone else is wierd.. / -- Mike_Gifford@cc.sfu.ca/mag@sandelman.ocunix.on.ca \_/ -- attending Carleton University, in Ottawa.. \end{verbatim} \rm With the new moon overhead in Pisces, Linton and I made our may from our drop-off point, through the maze of campus tunnels to a canvas-walled room in the Carlton Unicenter where we filed in with about a hundred others. At the door, we were issued with a stats chart for North America, 1970, the two of us representing three fifths the total population, 6\% of the world total. \section{Set and Setting} Inside Porter Hall, a vinyl-coated, dymaxion sky-ocean map two meters to the icosa-edge was taped to the floor with the north pole at roughly center court of the gymnasium sized hall. Our guides began with their preamble on time-scales, beginning at antarctica with geological time and adding the hydrosphere, lithosphere, flora and fauna at proportional points along the long edge, eventually crowding the map with population in the last few millimeters. Overhead, relevant statistics and key points in European history were synchronously projected, prompting Linton to ask, often at first and less as he grasped it, when he and I would climb on board. Before the game began, hats were issued to represent each 2\% of humanity, with additional hats for the biosphere's players and the United Nations, with those left over becoming the media. Plastic food, fuel candles, technology coupons and \WorldGame money were then issued in proportion, the current stats on production and consumption displayed and a brief recess taken while each area decided on a game plan to obtain their projected needs. In these discussions, those previously issued illiteracy cards were kept mute. To gain some perspective, we were then asked a number of questions and asked to rise if, for example, we had more than 3 candles per hat. A surprisingly large group stood when asked for those with at least one food prop per hat but no fuel. Similar questions most conspicuously singled out we North Americans, and Linton, having at first asked to hold our excess hats and food, was beginning to perhaps regret his fortune, and was most definately tired of all the standing and sitting. Following this, the overhead projection changed to a chart of current annual consumption and supply values for each of the issued commodities listed by region. Each line ended with a blank column for each `team' to fill in their standings at the end of the game. Before beginning the first round, we were asked to list features we felt would make the world a perfect place. We were asked for only positive features, things to be added to the world, rather than for items we'd wish removed or negatively affected. We offered a number of seemingly wild requests from a wide spectrum of interests. We offered cessation of hostilities, world-wide travel and trade, complete literacy and health and wealth for all. Each suggestion was noted on a transparency and the game was set to begin. \section{Playing the Game} Each round of the game was to follow a simple pattern: \begin{enumerate} \item mass pandemonium for some period of time \item a complete halt in world-wide transactions while everyone watched the media report. \end{enumerate} Transactions would include deals made to further a group's stated objectives, but in keeping with the environmental theme of the session, the transactions would also include warnings and citations made by the environment and deals made either directly or through agencies such as the U.N.\ to avert biospheric foreclosures. In preparing each deal, a form was provided to list the trouble to be addressed, the proposed solution and the impact this solutions might have. Once filled in, forms were submitted to the United Nations for pricing. If affordable, the fee was then to be returned to the U.N.\ where the deal would be ratified. In the case of projects meant to appease the environment, the U.N.\ would specify the cost in green technology credits and/or billions of dollars or some fantastic number of old {\em standard}\ technology credits and even more dollars. Other regional objectives, such as improving literacy, would require an appointment with a \WorldGame official. Beyond this, there were no other rules. North America does not stand a chance, no matter how philanthropic we wished to be. We simply do not have the manpower to handle the overwhelming traffic of a world stage. We also learned the world at large is not in dire need of our food, our fuel or even our technology, but they do need our money, and we have scads of it. We saw a graphic demonstration of why so many North American business people travel: the office is nuts at home. By comparison, Europe, Japan, and the emerging third world in South America and India have all the same resources we have, but they have very pressing needs to motivate them, and they have enough of a population to apply themselves to serving the world markets. Here we have the three of us frantically scribbling out paper-work, running back and forth to the U.N., making hurried world-tours, answering the endless line of complaints, trying to make at least a little sense from the overhead resource-by-region table and, on rare and completely wasted occasions, finding a few minutes to speak with the press or to fill in the proper forms. The others have ample staff and can afford to pair each problem with a person who can pursue it at their leasure. And they did. By the end of the game, quite by accident and with a lot of help from Linton's last-minute wheeling and dealing, we had made our objectives. We had aimed to maintain our food consumption, complete our literacy to 100\% and even, in good North American style, to consume just a little more power, and all of these were just met, but not without cost and a long list of outstanding complaints. Two of three rounds had us tied up attempting to appease the United Nations with major environmental campaigns many times larger than any our competitors could afford. These deals, to be made in the public view live on TV, never made it to the newscasts and, on the following rounds, we'd return to the U.N. to find the ante upped considerably. In the mean time, we had accumulated more warnings and death warrants from the biosphere than any other region, certainly more per capita, while our neighbours to the south found they had such surplus of green technology, they could trade for smiles. Not that we didn't do some good. Somewhere in the morasse of scribbled forms, we did buy some tiny amounts of African food surplus for fantastic amounts to cover the penalty fees levied on each failed literacy test. Had any of our environmental deals solidified, we would have clearly scored some bonus points for the dramatic clean-slate, at a cost of complete and immediate conversion to non-fossil fuels and some few hundreds of billions. We'd have done so much, had there been time. Linton spent the game running reconaisance to find those few candles we sought and to line up trade deals. As the only one under 18, he was a little too shy run some of the errands we so desparately needed, such as running proposals, price-lists and payments to the U.N., but as the afternoon progressed, he became more comfortable and actually found several important last-minute deals. I'm not really sure how our compatriot fared: On each return home to pick up more forms, we'd find a jumbled stack of environmental warnings, un-ratified proposals, loosely filed successful deals and the ever-comforting but rapidly diminishing bale of cash. In the final media report, we learned the reason for our bad press coverage. At one interview, I had been asked for a bribe, but had foolishly thought the fellow was joking. Linton asked if this was why, when he and Carla had been interviewed by the TV crew at their lemonade stand, the clip was never shown. \section{Beyond the Game} Following the final news, the props and hats were stowed away, the forms collected for disposal and the map cleared of players in preparation for a demonstration in numbers. Beginning at Antarctica, 10,000 black bingo chips were poured over the lands, proportional in area to the size of the ozone hole. A further 20,000 were spread out over South and North America to depict the total clear-cut area, and 20,000 more over the remaining continents to show both the total number of nuclear warheads (53,000) and their proportional area of total devastation, i.e. total. In the commentary, the chips were also said to illustrate proportions such as the total number of blacks living under apartheid in South Africa, and also the proportion of literate people. At the closing, we returned to our transparency notes of features for a perfect world. By this time, the list included food and shelter, benefits and luxuries and a general world-wide {\em lasse-faire} complacentcy to be enjoyed by all. This list, according to the commentary, was not substantially different from those collected at the other runs of the \WorldGame, and this had prompted them to price the list. At the bottom line, a total cost for complete world luxury came to about 50 billion dollars, or, as was graphically depicted, about one quarter of the current total expenditures on the military. Finally, we were asked rhetorically if we knew how one person might begin to take our present world toward the dream: Kneeling to pick up just one bingo chip and return it to its box, our commentator recalled the Chinese proverb \begin{quote} ``Journey of a thousand miles, begins with a single step.'' \end{quote} Our map was quickly cleared, a task Linton especially enjoyed, jumping right in completely free of all shyness. After the crowds had run off to catch some bus back to the host convention, and while I talked with the \WorldGame organizers, Linton continued to help with the map, carefully removing the tape and freeing the sections for packing. \section{epilog} Some months later, Linton came home from school with a new set of {\em Micro-Machine}\ cars. He explained in detail how one friend had wanted to trade his cars, but didn't want more cars in return and how a second friend had had some action figures he was willing to trade for a few cars \ldots \end{document} ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++cut here++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1992 09:02:47 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Crovo, Bob" Subject: Re: World Game Info In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:42:13 EDT from On Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:42:13 EDT Jamer said: >Awhile ago I wrote to the World Game Institute for some info, and they sent a >packet of brochures, and on one of them was a listing of some kind of 'tour' >of the world game.... > >Well, it so happens that one of the dates was for Oct 10 (my bday, incidently) >in Lexington, KY, and I was wondering if anyone had any information as to what I am not with WGI but I am in Lexington. I haven't heard anything from the media about this event. Where would you suggest I look? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1992 19:50:00 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "NAME 'Robert E. McElwaine'" Subject: FREE-ENERGY TECHNOLOGY FREE-ENERGY TECHNOLOGY by Robert E. McElwaine, Physicist Ninety to a hundred years ago, everybody "knew" that a heavier-than-air machine could not possibly fly. It would violate the "laws" of physics. All of the "experts" and "authorities" said so. For example, Simon Newcomb declared in 1901: "The demonstration that no possible combination of known substances, known forms of machinery and known forms of force, can be united in a practical machine by which man shall fly long distances through the air, seems to the writer as complete as it is possible for the demonstration of any physical fact to be." Fortunately, a few SMART people such as the Wright Brothers did NOT accept such pronouncements as the final word. Now we take airplanes for granted, (except when they crash). Today, orthodox physicists and other "scientists" are saying similar things against several kinds of 'Free Energy' Technologies, using negative terms such as "pseudo-science" and "perpetual motion", and citing so-called "laws" which assert that "energy cannot be created or destroyed" ("1st law of thermodynamics") and "there is always a decrease in useful energy" ("2nd law of thermodynamics"). The physicists do not know how to do certain things, so they ARROGANTLY declare that those things cannot be done. Such PRINCIPLES OF IMPOTENCE are COMMON in orthodox modern "science" and help to cover up INCONSISTENCIES and CONTRADICTIONS in orthodox modern theories. Free Energy Inventions are devices which can tap a seemingly UNLIMITED supply of energy from the universe, with- OUT burning any kind of fuel, making them the PERFECT SOLUTION to the world-wide energy crisis and its associated pollution, degradation, and depletion of the environment. Most Free Energy Devices probably do not create energy, but rather tap into EXISTING natural energy sources by various forms of induction. UNLIKE solar or wind devices, they need little or no energy storage capacity, because they can tap as much energy as needed WHEN needed. Solar energy has the DIS-advantage that the sun is often blocked by clouds, trees, buildings, or the earth itself, or is reduced by haze or smog or by thick atmosphere at low altitudes and high latitudes. Likewise, wind speed is WIDELY VARIABLE and often non-existent. Neither solar nor wind power are suitable to directly power cars and airplanes. Properly designed Free Energy Devices do NOT have such limitations. For example, at least three U.S. patents (#3,811,058, #3,879,622, and #4,151,431) have so far been awarded for motors that run EXCLUSIVELY on permanent MAGNETS, seemingly tapping into energy circulating through the earth's magnetic field. The first two require a feedback network in order to be self-running. The third one, (as described in detail in "Science & Mechanics" magazine, Spring 1980), requires critical sizes, shapes, orientations, and spacings of magnets, but NO feedback. Such a motor could drive an electric generator or reversible heatpump in one's home, YEAR ROUND, FOR FREE. [Complete descriptive copies of U.S. patents were $1.00 each from the U.S. Patent Office, correct 7-digit patent numbers required.] A second type of free-energy device, such as the 'Gray Motor' (U.S. Patent #3,890,548), the 'Tesla Coil', and the unpatented motor of inventor Joseph Newman, taps ELECTRO- MAGNETIC energy by INDUCTION from 'EARTH RESONANCE' (about 12 cycles per second plus harmonics). They typically have a 'SPARK GAP' in the circuit which serves to SYNCHRONIZE the energy in the coils with the energy being tapped. It is important that the total 'inductance' and 'capacitance' of the Device combine to 'RESONATE' at the same frequency as 'EARTH RESONANCE' in order to maximize the power output. This output can also be increased by centering the SPARK GAP at the 'NEUTRAL CENTER' of a strong U-shaped permanent magnet. In the case of a Tesla Coil, slipping a 'TOROID CHOKE COIL' around the secondary coil will enhance output power. ["Earth Energy: Fuelless Propulsion & Power Systems", by John Bigelow, 1976, Health Research, P.O. Box 70, Mokelumne Hill, CA 95245.] During the 1930's, an Austrian civil engineer named Viktor Schauberger invented and partially developed an 'IMPLOSION TURBINE' (German name, 'ZOKWENDLE'), after analyzing erosion, and lack of erosion, in differently shaped waterways, and developing sophisticated mathematical equations to explain it. As described in the book "A Breakthrough to New Free-Energy Sources", by Dan A. Davidson, 1977, water is pumped by an IMPELLER pump through a LOGARITHMIC-SPIRAL-shaped coil of tubing until it reaches a CRITICAL VELOCITY. The water then IMPLODES, no longer touching the inside walls of the tubing, and drives the pump, which then converts the pump's motor into an ELECTRIC GENERATOR. The device seems to be tapping energy from that of the earth's rotation, via the 'Coriolis effect', LIKE A TORNADO. A fourth type of Free Energy Device is the 'McClintock Air Motor' (U.S. Patent #2,982,261), which is a cross between a diesel engine (it has three cylinders with a compression ratio of 27 to 1) and a rotary engine (with solar and planetary gears). It burns NO FUEL, but becomes self-running by driving its own air compressor. This engine also generates a lot of heat, which could be used to heat buildings; and its very HIGH TORQUE makes it ideal for large trucks, preventing their slowing down when climbing hills. [David McClintock is also the REAL original Inventor of the automatic transmission, differential, and 4-wheel drive.] Crystals may someday be used to supply energy, as shown in the Star Trek shows, perhaps by inserting each one between metal capacitor plates and bombarding it with a beam of particles from a small radioactive source like that used in a common household smoke detector. One other energy source should be mentioned here, despite the fact that it does not fit the definition of Free Energy. A Bulgarian-born American Physicist named Joseph Maglich has invented and partially developed an atomic FUSION reactor which he calls 'Migma', which uses NON-radioactive deuterium as a fuel [available in nearly UNLIMITED quantities from sea water], does NOT produce radioactive waste, can be converted DIRECTLY into electricity (with-OUT energy-wasting steam turbines), and can be constructed small enough to power a house or large enough to power a city. And UNLIKE the "Tokamaks" and laser fusion MONSTROSITIES that we read about, Migma WORKS, already producing at least three watts of power for every watt put in. ["New Times" (U.S. version), 6-26-78, pages 32-40.] And then there are the 'cold fusion' experiments that have been in the news lately, originally conducted by University of Utah researchers B. Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann. Some U.S. Navy researchers finally took the trouble to collect the bubbles coming from such an apparatus, had them analyzed with mass-spectrometry techniques, and found HELIUM 4, which PROVES that atomic FUSION did indeed take place, and enough of it to explain the excess heat generated. There are GOOD INDICATIONS that the two so-called "laws" of thermodynamics are NOT so "absolute". For example, the late Physicist Dewey B. Larson developed a comprehensive GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe, which he calls the 'Reciprocal System', (which he describes in detail in several books such as "Nothing But Motion" (1979) and "The Universe of Motion" (1984)), in which the physical universe has TWO DISTINCT HALVES, the material half and an anti-matter half, with a CONTINUOUS CYCLE of matter and energy passing between them, with-OUT the "heat death" predicted by thermodynamic "laws". His Theory explains the universe MUCH BETTER than modern orthodox theories, including phenomena that orthodox physicists and astronomers are still scratching their heads about, and is SELF-CONSISTENT in every way. Some Free Energy Devices might be tapping into that energy flow, seemingly converting "low-quality energy" into "high-quality energy". Also, certain religious organizations such as 'Sant Mat' and 'Eckankar' teach their Members that the physical universe is only the LOWEST of at least a DOZEN major levels of existence, like parallel universes, or analogous to TV channels, as described in books like "The Path of the Masters", by Julian Johnson, 1939, and "Eckankar: The Key to Secret Worlds", by Sri Paul Twitchell, 1969. For example, the next level up from the physical universe is commonly called the 'Astral Plane'. Long-time Members of these groups have learned to 'Soul Travel' into these higher worlds and report on conditions there. It seems plausible that energy could flow down from these higher levels into the physical universe, or be created at the boundary between them, given the right configuration of matter to channel it. This is supported by many successful laboratory-controlled experiments in PSYCHO-KINESIS throughout the world, such as those described in the book "Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain". In terms of economics, the market has FAILED. Inventors do not have enough money and other resources to fully develop and mass-produce Free Energy Equipment, and the conventional energy producer$ have no desire to do so because of their VE$TED INTERE$T$. The government is needed to intervene. If the government does not intervene, then the total supply of energy resources from the earth will continue to decline and will soon run out, prices for energy will increase, and pollution and its harmful effects (including the 'GREENHOUSE EFFECT', acid rain, smog, radioactive contamination, oil spills, rape of the land by strip mining, etc.) will continue to increase. The government should SUBSIDIZE research and development of Free Energy by Inventors and universities, subsidize private production (until the producers can make it on their own), and subsidize consumption by low-income consumers of Free Energy Hardware. The long-range effects of such government intervention would be wide-spread and profound. The quantity of energy demanded from conventional energy producer$ (coal mining companie$, oil companie$ and countries, electric utilitie$, etc.) would drop to near zero, forcing their employees to seek work elsewhere. Energy resources (coal, uranium, oil, and gas) would be left in the ground. Prices for conventional energy supplies would also drop to near zero, while the price of Free Energy Equipment would start out high but drop as supply increases (as happened with VCR's, personal computers, etc.). Costs of producing products that require large quantities of energy to produce would decrease, along with their prices to consumers. Consumers would be able to realize the "opportunity costs" of paying electric utility bills or buying home heating fuel. Tourism would benefit and increase because travelers would not have to spend their money for gasoline for their cars. Government tax revenue from gasoline and other fuels would have to be obtained in some other way. And energy could no longer be used as a MOTIVE OR EXCUSE FOR MAKING WAR. Many conventional energy producer$ would go out of business, but society as a whole, and the earth's environment and ecosystems, would benefit greatly. It is the People, that government should serve, rather than the big corporation$ and bank$. UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED. Robert E. McElwaine B.S., Physics, UW-EC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1992 21:29:39 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Subject: Re: Fuller's History of Industrialization In-Reply-To: THE END IS NIE!'s message of Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:12:00 PDT <9209160141.AA02936@nic.ddn.mil> >> On Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:12:00 PDT, >> THE END IS NIE! said: [...stuff deleted...] Rhysling> I, by the way, only have access to this network..and this computer Rhysling> vie a local program where I can use a public terminal...call it Rhysling> wellfair, but I would call it realocation of wealth, so pour Rhysling> people like me can access a world they would otherwise never Rhysling> dreamed of existed... Rhysling> And Karl says "redistrabuetion" like it was a dirty word.... I call 'em like I see 'em. "Redistribution" is just another euphemism for "theft". When you take one person's wealth by force and give it to someone else, I don't see what other word applies. Ideas like redistribution come from economic and political schools of thought that are based almost entirely on envy. "He (or she) couldn't have possibly EARNED that much money or that kind of home. It must have been stolen. Let's steal it back and give it to someone we think deserves it more." I have no idea how people can expect a society based on mutual respect and trust to come from an attitude like that. The smallest minority in the world is the individual, and if the individual's right to keep what he produces is violated, no one's rights are safe. -- Karl Vogel Internet: vogel@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] 1-513-255-7383 UUCP: vogel%c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil@uunet.uu.net Control Data Sys. Inc. ...!uunet!c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil!vogel System managers do it with privileges. --unknown ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1992 23:05:49 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Contr Karl Vogel Subject: History, Industrialization and Political Agenda In-Reply-To: Gary Lawrence Murphy's message of Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:10:29 -0400 <9209160225.AA04495@nic.ddn.mil> >> On Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:10:29 -0400, >> Gary Lawrence Murphy said: Gary> Fuller talked about 'gestation periods' and went to great pains to Gary> measure these in all aspects of human endeavour. For example, the Gary> time between discovery and wide-spread use in the computer hardware Gary> business is about 2 years. In housing it is about 50. For this Gary> reason, Fuller was unconcerned with 'commercial success' and more Gary> intent on making the discovery, thus setting inevitables in motion. Which industry is more highly regulated? It's no accident that the most heavily regulated industries (housing, automobiles, steel, and banking) are the industries in the biggest trouble. This is not a random comment; I'm addressing something mentioned in the next paragraph. Gary> Fuller had another 'rule' about the spread of knowledge: wide-spread Gary> conversions only occur at crisis periods. When human beings first Gary> notice old habits are not being successful, first they do them again, Gary> HARDER, and only as a last resort do they change, but changing and Gary> adapting _is_ what we, as creatures, do best. Changing and adapting is what we as INDIVIDUALS do best. The main reason that governments keep making the same stupid mistakes generation after generation is that they have effectively isolated themselves from constructive feedback. The people who can make the changes that count are not the same people feeling the pinch. Lots of people moan about how "cruel" the marketplace is, but cruelty or kindness has nothing to do with it; if you provide the market with what it wants, you're much more likely to succeed than if you provide the market with what you think it SHOULD want. I completely agree with the point about "crisis periods". The problem is, we'll feel the crisis but the gasbags in Washington won't. Gary> If you can get your 'competitor' to add your products, their sales Gary> staff is yours, and you win, and they win because that is one item Gary> they no longer have the overhead or risks in making, and their line Gary> seems expanded. Chrysler and Mitsubushi, Coke and McDonalds. Grade Gary> school math, well within the reach of even a capitalist. But not a politician. If you and I run the same type of business, and you concentrate your efforts on the north side of town while I concentrate mine on the south side (because it's closer), we'd be in trouble if anybody wanted to hit us for anti-trust. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't even have to prove that we exchanged as much as a phone call. My point? The marketplace is great at cooperative efforts, much better than the government. I was in the Air Force, and believe me, it's a hell of a lot easier to get two businessmen to cooperate than it is to get two politicos or agencies to cooperate. RH> I'm sorry Gary, although I feel I did learn some things from your RH> posts, and the other posts, and I appreciate the suggested reading RH> material (which will definitely go on my list) I feel compelled to RH> say that this "well what are YOU doing about it" is a copout and RH> distraction from the issue: WHERE did the problem come from? WHO RH> is responsible? Is this problem the result of INTENTIONAL ACTS? Gary> No, searching for causes is the cop-out. Passing the buck to people Gary> who are no longer in office is a cop-out. Rolling up your sleaves and Gary> saying, "Ok, what needs to be done" is the only reasonable option. Not only do I disagree with this, I believe that it is an incredibly dangerous attitude. If you don't search for causes, you will never have any convincing evidence that you're engaged in the right course of action. As a matter of fact, you may be doing more harm than by doing nothing; if people look at you and think "Well, something's being done about THIS problem", they are a hell of a lot more likely to turn their attention somewhere else. RH> you should find the ten foot hole in the ship before you try to bail RH> with a teaspoon. Gary> We found the hole: it is called Apathy and Sloth. Withdrawing in disgust is not apathy. People everywhere can be damned energetic when they are working according to the dictates of their own minds. Germany was virtually levelled during WWII; 18 years after the war ended, West Germany was an economic powerhouse while East Germany was (and is) little more than a slum. Gary> Karl also wrote about the 'motivation' required to put Fuller's vision Gary> in motion, and I'd like to state first that I see 'motivation' as a Gary> circular argument: we say he was 'motivated' to write because we saw Gary> his posting; we say he posted because he was 'motivated'. That argument is not circular; you've said exactly the same thing in two slightly different ways. Motivation is not a detail; it is absolutely crucial to success. When you say that something has to be done somehow, "somehow" always means "somebody", and that somebody has to be motivated before he's going to act. [...stuff about Malthus deleted...] Gary> Malthus gave us this in 1605 (or so) and then it was true. Fuller was Gary> asked to do the same study Malthus had done, but his conclusion was Gary> very different. The USA feeds a hell of a lot of people, and yet we only have about 3% of the population directly employed with the production of food. The former USSR has more arable land than we do plus mineral wealth that we couldn't begin to match, and yet they're lucky when they can feed themselves and have a little left over. It doesn't take a study to figure that there was a lot Malthus didn't know. Gary> Malthus lived in a time with little communication and virtually no Gary> technology beyond shipbuilding and even that done by methods Gary> traditional for centuries. He also lived in a time where freedom wasn't exactly widespread. Gary> Malthus could not have been expected to recognize the slow growth in Gary> the science of his time as the beginnings of an exponential curve. It's important to remember where that curve took place; in the freer societies. Gary> In Fuller's future, no one cares if someone wants to be unproductive Gary> (and in my experience from studying Morita therapy, this feeling Gary> normally passes of its own or can be dispelled by Naikan reflections Gary> unless the person is being externally reinforced) I don't disagree; I've never believed that people as a rule are lazy slobs, but there are always exceptions, and they do damage out of all proportion to their numbers. I seriously hope a world like this comes to pass, but it's not here yet. The world economy has been seriously hurt by short-sighted and stupid actions on the part of both government and business; no one has the surplus to currently take care of anyone who doesn't feel like working. Gary> We'll even feed and clothe them just to be nice, as there is no Gary> shortage and it would otherwise go to waste. I have no problem with charity, unless it's at the point of a gun. Whenever we come up with some grand scheme for changing the world, we should ask three things: What things are going to be changed? Who is going to do the changing? What happens to those who dissent? If you find yourself hemming and hawing around number three, you have a problem. [...stuff deleted about economic vs. political power...] Gary> Not very convincing argument coming from a country where the military Gary> is most often used to protect economic interests (in the name of the Gary> economy or trade liberty). I'm the first to agree that this is horribly wrong. It's not a part of Capitalism, but then we haven't been anywhere close to a capitalist country for close to 80 years now. Gary> Then see if you can understand why Japanese companies are wooing Gary> third-world markets by picking up the tab on their debt (although I've Gary> never understood how we could plunder their countries for centuries Gary> and then say they owe us money) I'm not surprised that the Japanese politicians are going to start writing checks that the people who work for a living probably can't cash. Politicians are pretty much the same everywhere. As far as the third world is concerned, we've made some really stupid moves. The most stupid move I can think of is encouraging them to borrow money they can't repay. Don't blame this one on the bankers; they wouldn't make the loans until our government guaranteed repayment (from our pockets). The second most stupid move I can think of is our War on Drugs; we've virtually ruined most of Central and South America because of this. As to looting; we pay an unindustrialized nation for resources that are valuable ONLY because our industrialized nation needs them. That's not looting. If the deal was made with a dictator we put in power, that's a different (and very contemptible) story; however, businesses don't put dictators in power - governments do. Gary> The banks will soon see it is better to have clientele in debt than Gary> solvent, Not if they plan on staying in business, they won't. Gary> and they will realize, as industrialization streamlines and guaranteed Gary> income becomes neccessary, most anyone will always be able to Gary> "pay-off" on their loans. Who is going to provide this guaranteed income? Who decides how much is guaranteed, and to whom? What happens to those who disagree? Gary> They will play their papergames all day, and the average joe will just Gary> put his card in an ATM and take what he thinks he needs. The reason it's paper and not gold is due to government thievery. Most of the stupid games banks play wouldn't be possible if we were on a gold standard. Gary> WE ALREADY HAVE THIS! Banks, in the history of banking, have never Gary> been so lax with bad debts, and in much of the world, they can't even Gary> do anything about it. Banks think they can afford to be lax, with government guarantees. As far as "doing anything about it" is concerned, Mother Nature has a very nice way of taking care of fiscal stupidity; it's called a depression. Gary> As the volume of data records increases, Welfare is finding it Gary> increasing difficult to track its clients. As governments start to Gary> recognize how the Giants have bled them into bankruptcy, Governments have bankrupted themselves by diverting capital to non-productive uses, like welfare. Gary> I was taking exception to the notion of passing out punishment for Gary> crimes of non-conformity, and I think it was said before that North Gary> America, while by no means free of this sort of oppression, is by no Gary> means the world leader. I'm not threatened by non-conformity, except where it violates my rights. A thief is being non-conformist, but his desire to take my wallet and my desire to keep it is much more than a difference of opinion. I have every right to be as non-conformist as I like -- on MY nickel, not yours. From what I've seen, just about every aspect of civilized behavior can be summed up in one proverb: Take what you want and pay for it. My world does not revolve around money. It revolves around value. The best things in life are not free; they have to be paid for with something other than currency. -- Karl Vogel Internet: vogel@c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil [134.136.19.253] 1-513-255-7383 UUCP: vogel%c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil@uunet.uu.net Control Data Sys. Inc. ...!uunet!c-17igp.wpafb.af.mil!vogel Sam: What do you say, Norm? Norm: Any cheap, tawdry thing that'll get me a beer. --"Cheers" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 01:08:01 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: FREE HOT-AIR AND CAPSLOCK TOO In-Reply-To: <92Sep17.205434edt.10139@mail.uunet.ca> (Gary Lawrence Murphy) Seems, Robert, we meet again ;-) Unfortunately, it would appear you learned little from my comments on alt.consciousness, and again, far be it from me to dismiss your lengthy conjectures and assertions as mere pap, but I do hope you might this time read and learn. Perhaps, with some work, the eloquence of your sophism can take a more useful and informative guise. In <92Sep17.205434edt.10139@mail.uunet.ca> good old MCELWRE%UWEC.BITNET@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu writes: > FREE-ENERGY TECHNOLOGY > by Robert E. McElwaine, Physicist A B.Sc. doth not a physicist make, but that's ok; Fuller despised academic credit for its own sake, so in this forum you may be excused. > The third one, (as described in detail in > "Science & Mechanics" magazine, Spring 1980), requires > critical sizes, shapes, orientations, and spacings of > magnets, but NO feedback. Such a motor could drive an > electric generator or reversible heatpump in one's home, YEAR > ROUND, FOR FREE. Patents do not an invention make. Perhaps you could explain more precisely, by giving the power output figures of this device, how this is possible and yet not in widespread use. It would also be more informative if you could send us the address of those companies who market the device. > A second type of free-energy device, such as the 'Gray > Motor' (U.S. Patent #3,890,548), the 'Tesla Coil', and the The Tesla coil is not a motor, it is a transformer. The original, according to a film on Tesla I saw where it was demonstrated, still works, but subsequent designs proved hazardous; part of the success of the original was in its crude construction which made the device emit very high frequency currents that could not enter the skin, hence the impressive 'lightening from the fingertips' displays. > In the case of a Tesla Coil, slipping a 'TOROID > CHOKE COIL' around the secondary coil will enhance output > power. ["Earth Energy: Fuelless Propulsion & Power Systems", > by John Bigelow, 1976, Health Research, P.O. Box 70, > Mokelumne Hill, CA 95245.] Great reference. Have you actually tried or know anyone who has actually tried this? Considering the claims, with a working prototype, you would have little trouble selling these machines ... unless of course you wish to invoke international power-cartel conspiracies. > 1977, water is pumped by an IMPELLER pump through a > LOGARITHMIC-SPIRAL-shaped coil of tubing until it reaches a > CRITICAL VELOCITY. The water then IMPLODES, no longer > touching the inside walls of the tubing, and drives the pump, > which then converts the pump's motor into an ELECTRIC > GENERATOR. The device seems to be tapping energy from that > of the earth's rotation, via the 'Coriolis effect', LIKE A > TORNADO. Simple momentum defeats this. How, exactly, is the water pumped? How does this avoid the resistance of water to compression? > It burns NO FUEL, but becomes self-running > by driving its own air compressor. This engine also > generates a lot of heat, which could be used to heat > buildings; and its very HIGH TORQUE makes it ideal for large > trucks, preventing their slowing down when climbing hills. > [David McClintock is also the REAL original Inventor of the > automatic transmission, differential, and 4-wheel drive.] Again, power-transfer violations make people queasy. I assume, with his credentials, David has this device in mass-production. Do you have a company name? > Crystals may someday be used to supply energy, as shown > in the Star Trek shows, perhaps by inserting each one between > metal capacitor plates and bombarding it with a beam of > particles from a small radioactive source like that used in a > common household smoke detector. Assertion time again, Robert. How do you know this of crystals? > Migma WORKS, already producing at least three watts of power > for every watt put in. ["New Times" (U.S. version), 6-26-78, > pages 32-40.] That's two watts output? Enough for a calculator, but again, "New Times" is hardly a reference for a physicist to cite. What exactly was the output and which lab did the tests? > And then there are the 'cold fusion' experiments that > have been in the news lately, originally conducted by > University of Utah researchers B. Stanley Pons and Martin > Fleischmann. As a physicist, I would have hoped you'd followed the news better. > There are GOOD INDICATIONS that the two so-called "laws" > of thermodynamics are NOT so "absolute". For example, the > late Physicist Dewey B. Larson developed a comprehensive > GENERAL UNIFIED Theory of the physical universe, > ... His Theory explains the universe MUCH > BETTER than modern orthodox theories, including phenomena > that orthodox physicists and astronomers are still scratching > their heads about, and is SELF-CONSISTENT in every way. Can you be more specific? We are not, generally, ignorant school kids here and you won't scare us away with some real science. Perhaps I should also point out the paper by Sir Karl Popper in "Conjectures and Refutations" where he addresses the meaning of "SELF-CONSISTENT in every way" (caps are yours). Considering what is to follow in your note, I think you would be doing yourself a big favour to read what philosophy has to say about theories with no loop-holes. > Also, certain religious organizations such as 'Sant Mat' > and 'Eckankar' teach their Members that the physical universe > is only the LOWEST of at least a DOZEN major levels of > existence, like parallel universes, or analogous to TV See? Again, we are not going to just take your word for it. How do _you_ know this is true? Further, why is "Members" capitalized? Again, Popper's brief paper might save you a lot of public embarassment, both on this crusade and the other you launched about Eckantkar and the Maharaj Ji in alt.consciousness. > Long-time Members of these groups > have learned to 'Soul Travel' into these higher worlds and > report on conditions there. You've been with them two years now, so I assume you have done this. Question: if these are separate, parallel universes, how on earth can anyone verify their observations? There is a very excellent article invoking MPD to explain what your fellow Eckies are experiencing --- considering your love of such things, I think you may even enjoy the source: the fall issue of the Theosophical Society's "The Quest" magazine. Certainly a higher calibre of care in discourse than you have been accustomed to. For the other members of the list, while it is not Bucky-related, I would like to add a plug for my teacher's article on Zen and NLP which appears in the same issue ;-) > It seems plausible that energy > could flow down from these higher levels into the physical > universe, or be created at the boundary between them, given > the right configuration of matter to channel it. Assertions again. Exactly what configuration? By what mechanism do you believe this is 'plausible'? > supported by many successful laboratory-controlled > experiments in PSYCHO-KINESIS throughout the world, such as > those described in the book "Psychic Discoveries Behind the > Iron Curtain". Ahh! For a physicist, you sure read some great journals! Oh, and I see the conspiracy theories are about to appear! ... > In terms of economics, the market has FAILED. Inventors > do not have enough money and other resources to fully develop > and mass-produce Free Energy Equipment, and the conventional > energy producer$ have no desire to do so because of their > VE$TED INTERE$T$. > Many conventional energy producer$ would go out of > business, but society as a whole, and the earth's environment > and ecosystems, would benefit greatly. It is the People, > that government should serve, rather than the big > corporation$ and bank$. Dream on, boy. Do you think, if the power companies _could_ produce free energy, that they, being as money minded as you assert (without evidence, but we'll let that pass as 'common knowledge' :-) ), they would hesitate for even a moment before building a large-scale generator in secret and then putting their meter on the output line? 100% profit is not something they would pass by in favour of high-maintenance, high-risk ventures like the Great Whale. > IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED. I second that! -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 10:37:34 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Holder Subject: Re: FREE HOT-AIR AND CAPSLOCK TOO I did not read R E McElwaine's post because I am not interested in "free energy" until I see one work. Until you have a working prototype, don't bother me. I posted here because I just can't believe the High and Mighty tone Gary Murphy keeps using. Who appointed you god? I was personally insulted by some of the things you said to me in our correspondence, but now I see that you talk that way to everyone. Come down off your high horse. In MY world courtesy is a prerequisite to gaining an audience. You are being snide, superior and rude and it's not edifying: it's just depressing. Gary! You can say the same things without the rudeness, and it's more effective then. So you don't respect RE McElwaine? Impress us all with your restraint and patience! Set an example. I tried to be polite and patient, but I just can't stand the condescending tone anymore. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ assistant unix troll us geological survey ~ ~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov st petersburg florida usa ~ ~ YOU TEACH BEST WHAT YOU MOST NEED TO LEARN richard bach~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 11:04:12 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Holder Subject: And another thing! well, upon reading the REST of your article gary, it seems more balanced and less snooty than the first paragraph, which really set me off. I should have read the whole thing, and I guess I was rude to you which is a pretty poor example on my part, in addition to being a jerk which I apologize for. I should have cooled down before I responded. But I STILL think you could be more polite! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~robert holder~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ assistant unix troll us geological survey ~ ~ robert@whiplash.er.usgs.gov st petersburg florida usa ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~VISUALIZE MECHANIZED WAR~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 13:28:57 CDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: R Evan Easton Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE How do you get off this mailing list? easton@stolaf.edu , ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 13:36:50 MDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Dr. Strangelove" In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of FRI 18 SEP 1992 09:04:12 MDT UNSUB Noah Lee GEODESIC ********************************************* * Dr. Strangelove - the solo juggler of EP * * Student of Harvard on the Border * * IH23@UTEP.BITNET * * IH23@UTEPVM.EP.UTEXAS.EDU * ***************************************** * * A falafel patty a dinner does not make. * ********************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 15:40:01 CDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elizabeth Ai-Lan Nguyen Subject: unsubscribe me UNSUB Elizabeth Nguyen GEODESIC ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 14:24:14 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: And another thing! I wanted to thank Robert for coming back with this: > > well, upon reading the REST of your article gary, > it seems more balanced and less snooty than the > first paragraph, which really set me off. I should > have read the whole thing, and I guess I was rude > to you which is a pretty poor example on my part, > in addition to being a jerk which I apologize for. > I should have cooled down before I responded. But > I STILL think you could be more polite! Yes, I suppose I _should_ but as the follow-up errant request for removal from the lists shows, seems there is another fellow who would rather not answer my questions. Too bad. I bet he had great answers! Sorry, y'all, for the blatent waste of bandwidth. Musta been somethin' I ate. Back to Bucky, from those various posts I did want to make one item absolutely clear: Bucky does not prescribe a revolution, but forsees a natural evolution. His view of the future, confirmed many times within his own lifetime, describes not a possibility, but an inevitability, just as the days of the warrior kings passed the gauntlet to the merchant kings. GaryM writes: Ok. So _how_ do you _know_ that? ;-) -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1992 17:41:06 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: RE: UNSUBSCRIBE Jump ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1992 17:40:11 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: RE: Re: FREE HOT-AIR AND CAPSLOCK TOO A lesson in being polite: Robert Holder, when you have a personal problem with another person, write directly to them (Mr. Murphy)... That would be far politer than insulting him in public don't you think? I, on the ohter hand, have not lectured on such niceties...I still resurve rudeness as an option...especialy to those sporting superior airs... so put a sock in it.... anyway, what were we talking about? ...domes or somthing.... himmm... Christopher Rhysling LeFay @euclid.humboldt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1992 17:49:35 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: RE: Re: Fuller's History of Industrialization I think we stray and I see little from our banterings to beifit by, Karal... so... back to Bucky , OK? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1992 20:01:28 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "(The Caterpillar Cannot Understand The Butterfly)" Subject: How to unsubscribe To subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@UBVM.BITNET and in the body of your letter put the line: SUB GEODESIC When you want to post, send mail to GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET ******NOT***** to LISTSERV@UBVM.BITNET! LISTSERV@UBVM.BITNET is for subscriptions, administrivia, archive requests, etc. GEODESIC@UBVM.BITNET is the actual discussion group. Anything sent to GEODESIC will go to all members. (And you don't want to look like a jerk having everyone see your "SUB GEODESIC John Q. Public" command! ;^) ) This list is also linked to USENET in the group bit.listserv.geodesic You can subscribe to the list, [thereby helping us to have an accurate idea how many people are reading the group] and still read the messages through news, if you like. (That's what I do. I prefer not getting every post in my e-mail, but I want people to be able to find my address, if necessary.) If you'd like to be on the membership list, but not get mail, then after you subscribe, send mail to LISTSERV@UBVM.BITNET with the message SET GEODESIC NOMAIL This will remain in effect until you use SET GEODESIC MAIL to change it again. If you want to receive copies of everything you send to the list, use the command SET GEODESIC REPRO. If you DON'T want copies, use SET GEODESIC NOREPRO. (You may want to save this file to forward on to people who are interested, as it tells what the list is about, and how to subscribe.) -Pat ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Patrick G. Salsbury State University of NY @ Buffalo, USA SALSBURY@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Disclaimers are silly. ;^) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1992 17:53:50 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "(Robert Holder)" Subject: No Parlez, No Prisoners... Turning and turning in the widening gyre the falcon cannot hear the falconer. Things Fall Apart, the center cannot hold mere anarchy is loosed upon the world. from TS ELIOT, apologies for mistakes I just thought, you know, Him who has ears, let him hear. I hear the world crashing and it's beyond my ability to imagine saving it. But the one hope I have is that the humans will somehow learn to tolerate each other's thoughts and ways. You all do what you have to do. I'm gonna do what I have to. Live, thrive and survive, right? well I said I was gonna do this, so here it is: I wrote to about 30 dome makers last year and got about 11 or so replies. Here are their addresses. adieu THIS WORLD IS LIT TO POP AND NOBODY IS GONNA STOP! Jane's Addiction ========================================================= Geodesic Dome Makers: Mailing Addresses Current for August 1991 =============================================== Natural Spaces 37955 Bridge Road North Branch, MN 55056 Timberline Geodesics 2015 Blake Street Berkeley, CA 94704 Domes America, Inc. 6345 West Joliet Road Countryside, Illinois 60525-3908 Geodesic Homes Mfg & Sales P.O. Box 1675 Bailey, CO 80421 Synapse Domes P.O. Box 554 Lander, Wyoming 82520 Key Dome Engineering, Inc. P.O. Box 430253 Miami, FL 33143 Oregon Dome Inc. 3215 Meadow Lane Eugene, Oregon 97402 Hexadome P.O. Box 2351 La Mesa, CA 92041 Monolithic Constructors, Inc. 1 Dome Park Place P.O. Box 479 Italy, TX 76651 Daystar Shelter Corporation 22675 Cedar Drive NW Bethel, MN 55005 Geodesic Domes & Homes P.O. Box 575 Whitehouse, TX 75791 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1992 19:26:52 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: BDAMICO@GWUVM.BITNET Subject: RE: World Game Info In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:18:00 CST from Beware of imperialists. I learned a lot in my playing of the World Game. We had two young men who went to all the other players with a noble story of trying to disarm the world and offered food, money and medicine in exchange for nuclear arms which they promis ed to destroy. Our game ended in thermonuclear holocaust when these gentlemen deployed their newly gained nuclear might. The world game is a wonderful place to learn about the perils of international competition. --Trimtab-- (Yes, I'm still here and listening. Anyone else examining the cosm ic relationship between Buckminsterfullerene and Synergetic geometry?) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1992 20:05:23 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: BDAMICO@GWUVM.BITNET Subject: Re: Fuller's History of Industrialization In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 17 Sep 1992 21:29:39 -0400 from Fuller said nothing about redistribution. His Design Science revolution is bas ed in raising the living standard of the 'have-nots' and 'have-lesses' without taking away from the haves. This is done through ephemeralization "more with l ess". My, this discussion has gotten animated. --Trimtab-- (still listening) Kirby Urner, are you out there? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1992 20:28:48 CDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kenn Thomas Subject: Re: No Parlez, No Prisoners... In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 23 Sep 1992 17:53:50 EDT from Your apologies should go to W. B. Yeats, who wrote what you attributed to Eliot ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1992 09:10:31 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "(Robert Holder)" Subject: Yeats I knew that! I was just testing you... (just kidding) I wasn't sure; I guessed. sorry Yeats. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1992 16:25:10 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "(Dirk W. Howard)" Subject: Questions on building a Geodesic Dome Home I am considering building a geodesic dome home and I would like to ask a few questions from those people that have built one, or live in one. 1) How hard was it to get the building permit to build your dome? 2) How much of the work were you able to do your self? 3) If you had to hire contractors, how hard was it to find a contractor that was willing to work on a dome? 4) Did you use a dome kit? If so, which one? 5) How long did it take to comple your dome? 6) Do you have a mortgage on your dome? If you do, how hard was it to get the financing? Did you have to go through any special hoops or hassles to get it? 7) What are your feelings on the quality of the living space? Do you enjoy the non-rectalinear rooms? What aspects are most enjoyable? What are some drawbacks? 8) What do you enjoy most about your dome? 9) What do you like the least about you dome? 10) Would you do it again? You may either mail or post your replies. I will summarize the information and post the summary here. Thanks in advance. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dirk W. Howard These are my personal opinions. No one else Novell Technical Support in their right would claim them. dhoward@novell.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1992 17:02:00 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Seth Subject: RE: World Game Info TRIMTAB, I will be talking to a group of graduate students about Bucky on Oct 12, and would like to discuss the synergetic geometry - bucky ball relationship. I'm fascinated by this and would like to keep up to date on the developments. - Seth J. Itzkan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 13:38:01 CDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dosemagt@UWWVAX.UWW.EDU Subject: RE: Questions on building a Geodesic Dome Home 1) All I had to do was pay $120 for a building permit 2) I paid to have my electrical work (I'm afraid of electricity), my plumbing (my brother-in-law is plumber) and my shingling done. I started to late in the fall and didn't have time to do the shingling. 3) I had no problem finding people to work on a dome. 4) Yes. After a year of researching the various dome companies I selected Natural Spaces. They use a hub and strut system. 5) It took me about 9 months working in my spare time before I was ready to move in. The dome wasn`t complete. I ran out of money because from the time I purchased my kit until the time I started building material costs went over 55% and that shot my budget all to heck. My dome is a 44 foot dia. dome. 6) Yes. I went into my local banker and asked for a construction loan and recieved one without any problems. 7) I won't live in box house again unless I was forced to! The freedom of design is the greatest advantage in my opinion. I have some wide open space and I had some intimate spaces. The main thing is not to try and put square rooms into a round house. One of the draw backs is the sound transfer. Had I realized how easy the sound transfers from one area to the other I would have sound proofed the interior walls etc. 8) The freedom of design and the open spaces. I can sit in my living room and look up 24' to the top of the dome. I can also go to my 3rd floor loft and look down 24' into my living room. 9) The fact that I didn't put a cupla on the roof! If I ever build another dome it will have a cupla. 10) Would I do it again? Building your own home is a true test of a marriage. I'm very fortunate to have a very understanding wife. The other problem I had was trying to sell the house that I had. I was making payments on two places at the same time and that was hard. Yes I would do it again if I didn't have to worry about paying for more than one house at the same time. Not only that but the industry has made many improvements since I built my dome 13 years ago. Good luck with your investigations and I'm more than happy to share the dome expeience with you, so if you have any more questions just ask. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 14:33:30 CDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dosemagt@UWWVAX.UWW.EDU Subject: Dome Tour For those of you interested in building or buying a dome and would like to see a dome or two and/or would like to talk to dome owners. Natural Spaces of North Branch, MN is having a tour of domes on October 3, 1992. They will have 10 domes of various sizes etc. available for you to inspect. For more information you can call Natural Spaces at 800-733-7107. The cost for the tour is $6.00 per person. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 20:01:00 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "NAME 'Robert E. McElwaine'" Subject: Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Invention Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Spacecraft NASA should build an experimental spacecraft based on U.S. Patent #3,626,605 [at least $1.00 per complete copy from U.S. Patent Office, correct 7-digit patent number required], titled "METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR GENERATING A SECONDARY GRAVITATIONAL FORCE FIELD", awarded to inventor Henry W. Wallace on Dec. 14, 1971. In the patent, Figs. 7A and 7B are basically side views of a gravity-NEUTRALIZING FLYING SAUCER, or, if anchored to the ground, a ZERO-GRAVITY CHAMBER [which could have MANY possible GROUND-level applications for science, medicine, manufacturing, etc.]. Each oval diagram shows a motor spinning a central disc at a very high speed, about 28,000 RPM, and also rotating two other discs sandwiched around the first disc, via gears, at a much slower speed, perhaps 2,800 RPM, in the opposite direction. The two outer discs have extensions [counter-balanced via off-center axis] that, as they rotate, alternately make contact with two wide extensions from opposite walls of the spacecraft. The central disc should have shallow spiral-shaped grooves on both sides for air-bearings, to allow the needed very close contact with the two outer discs. I should clarify that each of the two outer discs has ONLY ONE [counter-balanced] extension, each one pointed opposite (180 degrees) the extension of the other disc. VERY CLOSE CONTACT must be made as the disc extensions slide past the wall extensions in order to conduct the "Kinemassic" Energy (term coined by the Inventor) from the discs to the walls in an ALTERNATING CIRCULATION. The most important factor making it work is that the discs, extensions, and outer walls of the spacecraft MUST be made of any material(s) in which a very large majority of the atoms are of isotopes having "half integral atomic spin", such as copper (3/2). All other parts, etc., should have a minority of such atoms. [See the appropriate column of the table of isotopes in the latest edition of "The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics."] Experimenters should use one motor to spin the center disc, and a 2ND SEPARATE motor to rotate the two outer discs, so their relative speeds can be varied to establish the needed conditions for PROPULSION of the spacecraft via "NEGATIVE WEIGHT" (with the spacecraft's "Kinemassic" field PUSHING AGAINST the earth's gravitational field, etc.). If we have to put up a space station, establish Moon bases, go to Mars, rendezvous with comets, etc., WHY DO IT THE HARD WAY?! Your favorite university or research company could make a big name for itself by making a small model of this work. UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED. Robert E. McElwaine B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 18:25:00 BSC Reply-To: gomide@BRFAPQ.BITNET Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: @FAPQ.FAPESP.BR - @FAPQ%FPSP.HEPNET - @BRFAPQ.BITNET - .BR gateway Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was GOMIDE@BRFAPQ From: gomide@FPSP.FAPESP.BR Subject: Apologies re: InterMeta course PLEASE DO NOT SEND MONEY ! It is with regret that I perform this task. Dr. Gelson V. Gomes. a professor of the University of Parana, Brazil, has exceeded this privileges and announced a eletronic course: > ____________________________________________________________ > Mastering INTERNET Tools, Seizing METANET Power - > The InterMeta Course > ____________________________________________________________ I must apologize for this flagrant breach of network etiquette. Please be aware that Dr. Gelson had no right to do so, since this is against the rules of our ANSP network, and also against the Bitnet rules. PLEASE DO NOT SEND MONEY! I will not discuss what his motivations were. But his account has been revoked, and there will be no such course through my network. Please write by normal mail, to: -> Gelson V. Gomes -> 358, R. Alvaro Andrade - ap.1201 -> Curitiba PR BRAZIL 80610-240 to get more information on his objectives. He may want to give the course by normal mail. :-) With regards, -- Alberto Courrege Gomide | Fundacao de Amparo `a Pesquisa - (11)831-3357 Software Supervisor | Rua Pio XI, 1500 - CEP 05468-901 - Sao Paulo | FAX (11)261-4167 Telex (11)82014 - Brazil (ACG8) - .BR Domain Technical Contact. | -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:17:28 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "(Perry E. Metzger)" Subject: Re: Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Invention "NAME 'Robert E. McElwaine'" writes: > Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Spacecraft > > NASA should build an experimental spacecraft based on > U.S. Patent #3,626,605 [at least $1.00 per complete copy from > U.S. Patent Office, correct 7-digit patent number required], > titled "METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR GENERATING A SECONDARY > GRAVITATIONAL FORCE FIELD", awarded to inventor Henry W. > Wallace on Dec. 14, 1971. Not only does he have to start posting strange irrelevant posts about perpetual motion machines to Libernet, but now he's here, too. Please go away, Mr. McElwaine. We don't want you. -- Perry Metzger pmetzger@shearson.com -- Just say "NO!" to death and taxes. Extropian and Proud. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 10:53:06 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "(Jim Lutz)" Subject: Re: Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Invention I don't care if he posts about perpetual motion, etc machines, as long as he builds a working demo first! Jim Lutz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 16:59:55 GMT Reply-To: flanagan@stat.washington.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: "(Jim Flanagan)" Subject: Re: Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Invention : Your favorite university or research company could make : a big name for itself by making a small model of this work. I should say so... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 21:42:01 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Future World Leader!! Subject: Re: Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Invention STOP!!!} I WELCOME THE POSTINGS OF ROBERT E. MCELWAINE!!! IF PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST MCELWAINE CONTINUE, LIFE HERE WILL CEASE TO BE INTERESTING, MEANINGFUL AND FUN. NO FASCIST WHINERS ALLOWED! --------------8============> ERIC SWENSON SWENSONE@ACFCLUSTER.NYU.EDU MENUDO@WELL.SF.CA.US -------------8============> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 09:19:17 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Terry Cooper, Computing Services, x2014" Subject: Re: Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Invention > STOP!!!} > > I WELCOME THE POSTINGS OF ROBERT E. MCELWAINE!!! > > IF PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST MCELWAINE CONTINUE, LIFE HERE WILL CEASE TO BE > INTERESTING, MEANINGFUL AND FUN. ... > ERIC SWENSON > SWENSONE@ACFCLUSTER.NYU.EDU > MENUDO@WELL.SF.CA.US > -------------8============> People should not be subjected to personal attacks for posting their views. However, when they make assertions and proposals that are outside the corpus of conventional science, they should be held to the same standards of rigorous scrutiny and proof. Some of Mr. McElwaine's posts have been interesting, but he does seem inclined to put forth rather unorthodox notions without much attention to whether or not they've been subjected to the stringent methodologies of science. In doing so, he opens himself up to strong and legitimate criticism. It's one thing to encourage "alternative thinking." It's quite another to waive the rigorous requirements of scientific investigation. best, ...terry ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 09:49:37 PDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "(Jim Lutz)" Subject: Re: Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Invention I'm not whining. I just want to see a working prototype. As they say the proof is in the pudding. Jim Lutz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:20:00 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: "(Gary Lawrence Murphy)" Subject: A _Real_ 'anti-gravity' Bucky Invention In-Reply-To: <92Sep29.215939edt.10515@mail.uunet.ca> (Gary Lawrence Murphy) The List God speaketh ... ;-) In <92Sep29.215939edt.10515@mail.uunet.ca> GEODESIC@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu ( writes: > > IF PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST MCELWAINE CONTINUE, LIFE HERE WILL CEASE TO BE > INTERESTING, MEANINGFUL AND FUN. > > NO FASCIST WHINERS ALLOWED! Indeed, indeed, Eric, but should you take the time to actually read my follow-up to our dear est-steamed Mr. McElwaine, there was nary a hint of, as you so astutely claim, personal attacks, and from the followups I've seen to his possibly preposterous claims, all that come to mind are those asking why such a Marvellous Machine does not have a prototype we can see or a production edition we can buy. If you remember from last episode, I only asked him to explain certain characteristically sophist assertions, and his sole reply, very unfortunately unheeded, was to request instructions for dropping this list. Amazing as it may seem, Eric, the title of this list has some meaning, and nowhere do I find any relevance to the mighty Est-Meister or Ma-mirage Gee (willikers) in any of the literature by Bucky or any of those who follow. Perhaps you can elaborate your claim of personal attack, but I'd prefer you just keep it to yourself --- among Rastas they say, when attacked as you alledge Mr. Bobby has been, "Jah know and I know", and nothing further is required. But to keep things INTERESTING, MEANINGFUL AND FUN ;-) ... Bucky did indeed envision an 'anti gravity' invention, infact, he went one further and computed exactly, within the then known and accepted laws of dynamics, how to build such a machine to such a scale as to support whole towns aloft in the sky! "How?" you ask? (or I truly hope so ;-)). Simple: Bucky observed that hot air rises, a fact probably even with the grasp of Mr. McElwaine's undergraduate physics. Bucky also observed that the surface area of a bubble increases to the second power of the expansion, whereas the volume increases by a third power, hence the shipping magnates could make a killing by doubling the length of their ships, increasing the load capacity by the third power but needing only to push the second-power increase in surface friction through the water. 'Tis fact, sure and true. Now, let us suppose you have a geodesic dome of such fine mesh as to effectively trap air currents as does the in-reality-porous silk of the balloonist's trade. The surface area is exposed to the sun, and being concave inside, tends to trap the energy, concentrating it until, wonder of wonders, the air inside is hotter than the surrounding air. Scale it up, scale it WAYYY up, and the volume inside becomes a thermal trap by the same principle that makes dome homes easier to keep warm (more air molecules to intercept the energetic ones, like the photons taking eaons to escape the solar core), the dome reaches a point where the differential in temperature-induced lift exceeds the weight. Bucky calculated a dome on the order of 5-miles in diameter would accumulate sufficient solar energy (those same damn photons!) to lift the weight of tens of thousands of people, their homes, shops, vehicles, and all their patent papers on impossible inventions. Out of the parking lot ... and into the sky! Of course, ick-Meister Eberhardt already knows when IT will happen, but for us mere mortals, Bucky left the clue in his characteristic instructions for the production of alloys through the decrease in inter-atomic distances (increasing tensile strength by the second power) and the simple surface-node-population and Euler-formula computations which tell us, unless we have a robot spider capable of spinning tensegrity at an enormous rate, we would be making tensegrity prisms 'til well past doomsday. On a side note, there was a story in the paper about an arachnologist/materials-engineer who has succeeded in scaling up the silk-producing of insects to industrial strengths. The newspaper report claimed we would see artificial robot-spun silk cable of amazing tensile strength offered as a cost-effect alternative to steel cable within the decade. More and more with less and less. What the List God speaketh is true. Thus spake the List God, and all were afraid. (ps to Eric: get Robert to put you on his mailing list --- I pay for my connect time and get a tad mifted by blatently bombastic bandwidth bother; thank heaven's I don't receive my own postings!) -- Gary Lawrence Murphy -- garym@maya.isis.org -- (613) 230-6255 -------------------------------------------- "The present moment is a powerful goddess." - Goethe