From <@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU:owner-LISTSERV@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU> Sun Feb 5 08:50:55 1995 Received: from netaxs.com (root@netaxs.com [198.69.186.1]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA11097 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 08:50:55 -0500 Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [128.205.2.1]) by netaxs.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA01212 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 08:50:53 -0500 Message-Id: <199502051350.IAA01212@netaxs.com> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9799; Sun, 05 Feb 95 08:50:30 EST Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3759; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 03:19:39 -0500 Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 03:19:35 -0500 From: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8a)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9212" To: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 09:14:54 +0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: WA Office of Higher Education Subject: Rest in Peace? Whatever happened to bit.listserv.geodesic? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 03:13:04 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Vercingetorix Subject: Re: Rest in Peace? In article <1g3haeINNkiu@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> waohe@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (WA Office of Higher Education) writes: >Whatever happened to bit.listserv.geodesic? and a very good question it is, too. in a vain attempt to kick the old mongrel back into life, i pose the question: why (whilst i was in the US recently) could i not find even *one* Californian residential property boasting geodesic architecture -- given that it is IMHO generally acknowledged as one of the most domehome-ridden corners of the earth ? andre. -- "she's on another planet/ she's in my dream/ she's some kinda angel/ if u know what i mean/ try her on an' she fits like a glove/ too bad she only thinx about the lord above/ evangeline/ i think i love u..." ==============anders@deakin.oz.au -- all pagan rites reserved================ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1992 21:18:45 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: RE: Rest in Peace? Death by Political Bantering.... ...to bad, was fun...all those shapes gave me a head-ache though... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 13:44:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Colin G Johnson - sellers of whipping cream to the industrial market - celebrating twenty years of successful trading." Subject: RE: Rest in Peace? It seems to have faded away . . . Perhaps some1 has a question to spark it back into life!?! Summer grasse. Of heroes dreams. All that remains. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 11:10:50 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dennis R Short Subject: RE: Rest in Peace? In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 9 Dec 1992 13:44:00 GMT from This list fades in and out. It was active until a rash of "anti-gravity machine" and other "technology" postings. Flame started and then the group faded. Occasional good postings. Of course, I asked an upper level undergrad course I teach if they knew who Bucky was. NOT one person did!!!!! maybe I should go back to my whole earth catalog:) An important question for domes and all non-traditional architecture is how much impact does the attitude of mortgage bankers and building code people have on restraining or blocking innovative building technologies?? Dennis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 15:25:44 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Curd Zechmeister Subject: Need Help ! Dear Netters, could you help me collect a list with Names and Addresses of the 20 biggest oil companies in the U.S.A. and in Europe !!! Many Thanks C.-Stefan ZECHMEISTER -- _______________________________________________________________________________ / / / / / / / / / / |Vienna University Computer Center / / / / / / / / / / |Universitaetsstr. 7 / / / / / / / / / / |A-1010 VIENNA / / Curd-Stefan ZECHMEISTER / / | / / / / / / / / / |Tel.: (43) (222) 436111 265 / / / / / / / / / /|Fax : (43) (222) 436111 170 / / / / / / / / / / |Mail: cz@wscz.cc.univie.ac.at ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 19:54:19 GMT Reply-To: nolan@twg.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Nolan Hinshaw Subject: Re: Rest in Peace? In article <1g3o80INNis1@sol.deakin.OZ.AU>, anders@deakin.OZ.AU (Vercingetorix) writes: [stuff] |>in a vain attempt to kick the old mongrel back into life, i pose the question: |> |>why (whilst i was in the US recently) could i not find even *one* Californian |>residential property boasting geodesic architecture -- given that it is IMHO |>generally acknowledged as one of the most domehome-ridden corners of the earth ? You probably didn't visit the Santa Cruz Mountains, for one thing. I know several people who live in domes in that area. There's a school at the junction if Interstate 280 and I380 that has a pair of domes on the premises. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 14:32:46 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Svein Olav G. Nyberg" Subject: RE: Rest in Peace? At 11:10 09-12-92 -0500, Dennis R Short wrote: >This list fades in and out. It was active until a rash of >"anti-gravity machine" and other "technology" postings. Flame started >and then the group faded. Occasional good postings. Of course, I asked >an upper level undergrad course I teach if they knew who Bucky was. NOT >one person did!!!!! maybe I should go back to my whole earth catalog:) > >An important question for domes and all non-traditional architecture is >how much impact does the attitude of mortgage bankers and building code people >have on restraining or blocking innovative building technologies?? I joined this list because I wnated to know who Buckminster Fuller was, as the intro was tantalizing. I still don+t know, though. Solan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 10:55:00 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bill Long Subject: Re: Rest in Peace? >in a vain attempt to kick the old mongrel back into life, i pose the question: > >why (whilst i was in the US recently) could i not find even *one* Californian >residential property boasting geodesic architecture -- given that it is IMHO >generally acknowledged as one of the most domehome-ridden corners of the earth >? >andre. Well, I don't know about California but I live in Upstate NY (Clinton County) and there are a few Dome Homes in this area. The nicest one is a huge home located on Dunn Rd. in the hamlet of Ingraham (Town of Chazy). There are probably more than a dozen others nearby...one being a stacked wood dome built by Rob Roy on Murtaugh Hill Rd. (off the Military Trnpk-190 in West Chazy). Following Rt. 9 either north or south from Plattsburgh will take you past smaller, but still nice, dome houses. There are also some small dome storage buildings...even a horse dome on Macomb St. in Plattsburgh...and I've just added to the list by building a storage dome about a month ago. Actually what I built is an icosahedron with five struts removed to provide a five-sided base. I used some s.s. sheet metal to make (11) joint pieces shaped like stars. On each leg of the star I drilled (2) 3/8" holes. Then I cut (25) rough 2X4's to 8' lengths and drilled (2) 3/8" holes in them. The frame was then bolted together using carriage bolts and the sides wrapped in heavy plastic sheet. (5) sheets of chip-board went on the top to provide support (for all the snow) and then those sides were covered with felt-paper and tarps (yeah I know, but I used what was handy...and CHEAP). For a little over $100.00 I've got a structure with a floor area of about 138 square ft. (equivalent to a square stucture 11.75' per side...and have you priced those little metal storage buildings lately?) with enough head room that I'm seriously considering putting in some joists to create a loft area for additional storage space! I think the next dome I build will be smaller and have hinged top sides that can be opened so I can use it as a telescope dome for cold weather stargazing...and then maybe a BIG one...you know, a REAL dome. Anyway, sorry to hear about your disappointing trip but if you're ever on the east coast come on up! Someone mentioned about banks being reluctant to finance archetecturally inovative homes and I agree that this is probably a large factor in why we don't see more domes...I know people in this area who've had a hard time getting financing for homes that weren't hooked up to public electric utilities (you know, solar or wind powered) and that discourages more of this type of construction. I'm sure it's a plot by the banks and public utilities to keep the $$$ flowing in...maybe McElwaine would like to dump a large file of "evidence" to this list for us to review (please don't forget the :^). Bill Long p.s. to the guy who joined the list to find out who Bucky was: take a trip to your local library and look him up. There have been several biographies written about him and there is much to be gleaned from reading his own works. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 11:53:11 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ken Latta Subject: Re: Rest in Peace? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Dec 92 14:32:46 +0100." <9212101606.AA18663@merit.edu> There are several approaches to solving the question. Older editions of Whos Who in America, books in the public libraries... Ken Latta, Merit Network, Inc. NSFNET Project, Internet Engineering Group 1071 Beal, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-2103 313.936.2115 voice, 313.747.3745 fax klatta@merit.edu, USERLFQF@umichum.bitnet > From: : "Svein Olav G. Nyberg" >At 11:10 09-12-92 -0500, Dennis R Short wrote: >>This list fades in and out. It was active until a rash of >>"anti-gravity machine" and other "technology" postings. Flame started >>and then the group faded. Occasional good postings. Of course, I asked >>an upper level undergrad course I teach if they knew who Bucky was. NOT >>one person did!!!!! maybe I should go back to my whole earth catalog:) >> >>An important question for domes and all non-traditional architecture is >>how much impact does the attitude of mortgage bankers and building code peo ple >>have on restraining or blocking innovative building technologies?? > >I joined this list because I wnated to know who Buckminster Fuller >was, as the intro was tantalizing. > >I still don+t know, though. > > >Solan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 11:42:23 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: GR8902@SIUCVMB.SIU.EDU Subject: Bucky! Greetings from Southern Illinois University at Carbondale! The home of your asteemed Buckminster Fuller.. a local legend. He taught here for many years, and although he did not have a PhD he was given a special degree and the title of professor. Our University museum had an exibit of his works a while back.. really quite interesting. Scale models of his boat, houses and more wild stuff. Bucky's brilliance lay in the fact that he realized shapes that already existed in nature, and utilized them for his own ends. Anyway, I should also comment that a few dome buildings exist in the area that were built by the Master himself. One house he built in a matter of a few hours. The house is still lived in. later, Christopher Allen Wentling - SIUC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 12:14:45 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Melcir Erskine-Richmond Subject: Domes around the globe In-Reply-To: ; from "Bill Long" at Dec 10, 92 10:55 am I think we need to consider the FUTURE OF THE DOME. I have seen at least one dome-home in Queensland, Australia -- one in the area near the Glasshouse Mountains, by Peachester village (just north of Brisbane). But how adaptable are domes to the various climatic zones around the world? > in a vain attempt to kick the old mongrel back into life, > i pose the question: > > why (whilst i was in the US recently) could i not find even *one* Californian > residential property boasting geodesic architecture -- given that it is IMHO > generally acknowledged as one of the most domehome-ridden corners of the earth > ? > andre. I very much liked this idea: > ... I think the next dome I build will be smaller and have > hinged top sides that can be opened so I can use it as a telescope dome for > cold weather stargazing...and then maybe a BIG one...you know, a REAL dome. If this is why we see so little true innovation around the planet, how very disappointing!: > ... Someone mentioned about banks being reluctant > to finance archetecturally inovative homes and I agree that this is > probably a large factor in why we don't see more domes...I know people in this > area who've had a hard time getting financing for homes that weren't hooked > up to public electric utilities (you know, solar or wind powered) and that > discourages more of this type of construction. I'm sure it's a plot by the > banks and public utilities to keep the $$$ flowing in...maybe McElwaine > would like to dump a large file of "evidence" to this list for us to review > (please don't forget the :^). > > Bill Long > May I encourage you to join the futurist bulletin board - 21st-c-l@BRUFPB.BITNET, and perhaps also CLINTON@marist.BITNET, and ask for the siginificance of looking more to the future to be politically and economically considered! Best to all, Melcir ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 10:39:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Where there is talk of beginning and end, all is deceit In-Reply-To: <92Dec10.064105est.10043@mail.uunet.ca> (Gary Lawrence Murphy) I wouldn't want you all to count your hatchlings too soon: I'm in the midst of a panic move to take up a research post in Toronto (note the updated .sig), so I haven't had much time for lists and the like, but I assure you, there is much left to banter about here, political and otherwise, as relate to geodesicisms. I see also, in cleaning out old drawers, my membership at the BFI is due to expire, (I haven't received a TrimTab in a long time!) and that is yet another forum I hope to get back into once the dust settles. So don't hold the wake just yet :-) ... -- Gary Lawrence Murphy ---------------- garym@virtual.rose.utoronto.ca 279 Fifth Avenue Ottawa, Ontario Canada K1S 2N4 (613) 230-6255 "Rely on reality, not a person or a system or a thought." --- Morita ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 17:50:45 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Jim Lutz Subject: Re: Bucky! > Anyway, I should also comment that a few dome buildings exist in the > area that were built by the Master himself. One house he built in a > matter of a few hours. The house is still lived in. How in the world did he do that? What sort of technology did he use? Details please. Thanks, Jim Lutz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 13:47:58 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Unregistered Shareware User From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Bucky! In-Reply-To: <92Dec11.060918est.9892@mail.uunet.ca> (Gary Lawrence Murphy) In <92Dec11.060918est.9892@mail.uunet.ca> jdlaps@dante.lbl.gov writes: > > Anyway, I should also comment that a few dome buildings exist in the > > area that were built by the Master himself. One house he built in a > > matter of a few hours. The house is still lived in. > > How in the world did he do that? What sort of technology did he use? > Details please. In the fewest possible words: by Design Science! In a few more: by exploiting aircraft technology, prefabricating the parts in a controlled (factory) environment and, as Bucky so excelled at doing, _planning_ every last detail, right down to how the parts dissassembled would pack into the smallest possible container. In talking about Domes for the Future, we should also keep in mind the 'gestation periods' Bucky measured, and how he considered his own designs merely the prototypes to get the ball rolling --- by his own calculations, we should be just on the very threshold of a burst in dome-icile industries, and especially the support industries to build, maintain, and administrate the dome-iciles; Bucky's vision was for homes to be managed in the same way as our current champion 'high-tech-for-everyone' business, the Telephone. I'm in the midst of a move now, and I will tell you, having done this too many times before and being in an industry (selling only my know-how with computers) where I can expect to do this many more times :-(, I would _far_ prefer to simply call up my dome company and have my current home either air-lifted 450km south-east, or just give them a 'disconnect' notice, get on the train for Toronto, drop in at their local dome company showroom and pick out a home to be installed near (topologically, not necessarily geographically) the Roseburgh building... they will of course say, "Someone will be out to connect it next Tuesday" :-) The only question which remains is who is going to be the Bell of housing for the 21st Century? You can't tell me there is no demand! -- Gary Lawrence Murphy ---------------- garym@virtual.rose.utoronto.ca 279 Fifth Avenue Ottawa, Ontario Canada K1S 2N4 (613) 230-6255 It's AFTER the end of the world. Don't you know that YET? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 08:35:26 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: D Anton Sherwood Subject: Re: Rest in Peace? In article <01GS5CIYA1PC9EGJOY@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu> Bill Long writes: > >... Someone mentioned about banks being reluctant >to finance archetecturally inovative homes and I agree that this is >probably a large factor in why we don't see more domes...I know people in this >area who've had a hard time getting financing for homes that weren't hooked >up to public electric utilities (you know, solar or wind powered) and that >discourages more of this type of construction. I'm sure it's a plot by the >banks and public utilities to keep the $$$ flowing in...maybe McElwaine >would like to dump a large file of "evidence" to this list for us to review >(please don't forget the :^). Er, how does cutting themselves (the banks) out of a segment of the market keep the money flowing in? The banks probably just deem it a bad risk to lend on a house that can't be built because of the wonderful Codes. But yeah, I'll go along with putting blame on the public (i.e. monopolistic) utilities. -- Anton Sherwood dasher@well.sf.ca.us +1 415 267 0685 1800 Market St #207, San Francisco 94102 USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 08:31:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: D Anton Sherwood Subject: Re: Rest in Peace? In article Dennis R Short writes: > >An important question for domes and all non-traditional architecture is >how much impact does the attitude of mortgage bankers and building code people >have on restraining or blocking innovative building technologies?? I heard that some students wanted to build a dome as a class project, but couldn't get permission from the almighty county planning agency because the proposed structure wouldn't have studs every sixteen inches. In "Grunch of Giants" (and probably elsewhere, I suppose), Fuller tells of the barriers he met with the Dymaxion House. Zoning officials wouldn't allow it to be installed unless union plumbers and electricians were hired to rip out all the pipes and wires and put them back in. This, of course, made the world safe for tradition. Fuller concluded that capitalism has got to go. *sigh* If that's capitalism, I'm Ross Perot.... -- Anton Sherwood dasher@well.sf.ca.us +1 415 267 0685 1800 Market St #207, San Francisco 94102 USA ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 16:36:15 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: leo elliott <76440.1416@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Grunching Along! I might add that we should not forget the insurance industry in the "Grunch Cadre" -- perhaps there is some "insurance threshold" that marks the beginning of "professionalism"... I recall somewhere Bucky saying he never wanted to be considered a "professional" because that was when one became more concerned with the opinions of one's colleagues than with what was the right or best way of building or doing something. I don't think it's like some conscious collusion on the part of all these agencies/institutions, but rather the inertia of accumulated bureaucratic fear, laziness, and ineptitude, all "conspiring" to keep domes "on the wild side". I live two lots down from a dome built in the mid 70s that began deteriorating in the late 70s (when my friend moved out of it) and it then sat idle for several years, deteriorating further, until it finally hit the marketing level where it got sold to someone willing to be a live-in do-it-yourselfer, which is I suppose another term for "crewmember". By way of intro, (this is my first post to this list!) I live in Charlottesville, VA and work as a System Admin for a wholesale importer-distributor of linens from France; I have read most all of Bucky's work (except the 'deep' math), and was about 15 years ago working on a Masters Thesis on the striking conceptual symmetry between Bucky and the Urantia Book, which writing this forum may serve to resurrect. Distribution: >INTERNET: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 22:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ken Latta Subject: Re: Rest in Peace? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 Dec 92 08:35:26 GMT." <9212121520.AA10912@merit.edu> It's not really such an elusive concept. The bank is only willing to lend you money in order to make a profit. They assess the risk that you might not make payments for the entire term (10, 15, 30 years) and they'll have to take the house. The problem with any non-standard house is their assessment of the marketability is very low, and that's even in a locale where the building codes are friendly. If the dome were on the fringe of an uptight neighborhood (like the ones where neighbors sue the person with a purple paint job), they fear they'll never resell the house. Now I'm not for or against them, just trying to understand them. Some other issues, utilities hookup. I believe almost every dwelling should be connected to the utilities grid unless the cost of connection is truly prohibitive. While I support exploratory technology, few dwellings only ever have one owner. Re-use requires flexibility. Even the "bad" technologies aren't always so obviously bad. Consider electricity. The encouragement of electric vehicles for instance represents an increase in demand. And don't forget that one of Fullers' goals was the world power grid which would permit the distribution of electricity generated by the most benign sources (wind, hydro, natural gas). Ken Latta, Merit Network, Inc. NSFNET Project, Internet Engineering Group 1071 Beal, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-2103 313.936.2115 voice, 313.747.3745 fax klatta@merit.edu, USERLFQF@umichum.bitnet Disclaimer: organization listed for identification purposes only. "We must go forward into the future, not past into the back"--guess who > From: : D Anton Sherwood >In article <01GS5CIYA1PC9EGJOY@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu> Bill Long >>... Someone mentioned about banks being reluctant >>to finance archetecturally inovative homes and I agree that this is >>probably a large factor in why we don't see more domes...I know people in t his >>area who've had a hard time getting financing for homes that weren't hooked >>up to public electric utilities (you know, solar or wind powered) and that >>discourages more of this type of construction. I'm sure it's a plot by the >>banks and public utilities to keep the $$$ flowing in...maybe McElwaine >>would like to dump a large file of "evidence" to this list for us to review >>(please don't forget the :^). > >Er, how does cutting themselves (the banks) out of a segment of the market >keep the money flowing in? > >The banks probably just deem it a bad risk to lend on a house that can't be >built because of the wonderful Codes. > >But yeah, I'll go along with putting blame on the public (i.e. monopolistic) >utilities. >-- >Anton Sherwood dasher@well.sf.ca.us >+1 415 267 0685 1800 Market St #207, San Francisco 94102 USA ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:01:10 GMT Reply-To: bbl7597@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: bbl7597@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU Subject: alternative housing Is there a more general list on alternative housing that discusses underground houses and other alternative homes? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:28:09 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: M Brewer Subject: Kick Start Hi All I am undergrad in Bristol England doing a research project into map construction , design and computer representation. And well to say the least I have a few questions , perhaps someone might be able to help. 1 : Where can I find out more information on WGS84 and most important the calculations used in conversions. 2 : What good books would anyone reccomend (OTHER THAN SPELLING!) 3 : What is a dome home (I can guess but Id like to know more ?) thanking you all in advance Mark -- _____________________________________________________________________________ ^ ^ | C:S:D:I: (GB) / \ / \ ^ |`\ | / | UWE @ Bristol GB / - \ /_\ |_/ || BREWER@DXCERN.CERN.CH | Tel+44/0209 713056 / \ / \ | \ | \ MJ_BREWE@CSD.UWE.AC.UK | Tel+44/0454 250003 ============================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:36:21 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: Inovation Where You Find it... George Dyson, in persueing the evolution of the Baidarka (Kyak,Canue), developoed a methode for fabricating those sceleton/skin structures that I think would prove aplicable to our friend, the dome. Mr. Dyson Made the frame of his vehicle from aluminiem tubeing, lashed together with nylon thread and reinforced with gussets, also of aluminiem. He exper- amented with several skins, from fiber-glass to nylon impregnated with neoprean and hyperon. The boats he fabricated by this methode where both strong and light. Best of all, they required fue tools to manuefacture, no heavy aquipment, and very simply methods (sewing and simple fabrication of metals). Add one more nifty idea to the dome pile. It will not help much. Why? Why are domes not poping up all over? Why have I not made one? For me, the answer is simple: NO LAND. I can conceptualize all day, sketch out neet dezines, make plans... but untill I have a piece of earth to call my own, I will never make one... Round where I live, a 50x70 ft lot runs for 65 thousand $$$, starting... I, if I could find full time employment, at say, $5 an hour, 40 hrs a week, in about 15 YEARS I could afford to by a lot...assueming I forsake all other dreams... Add in building costs...however minimal... That dream is too distant, too far away. I am very pore. This may not be your case. If you are not, I say to you: Why are you not LIVING YOUR DREAM? If it is making domes, DO IT! Others will say "Neet, could I do that?" or "By God, stand back, that thing looks dangerouse!" Eather way, you will have done it. If you have the means by which to change your ideas into reality, do it. I envy you. If you do not, do as I must, and strive for the means to change your status, and that of those around you. In the meanwhile, untell I can afford a place to call Home, I keep listening here, and keep my little dreams alive...I hope yours fair well. C.R LeFay *********************** Rhysling@Euclid.Humboldt.Edu Po Box 942 Arcata, Ca, 95521 No Phone/No home :I *********************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:18:57 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dosemagt@UWWVAX.UWW.EDU Subject: RE: Inovation Where You Find it... I live in a rural community in south central Wisconsin. I purchased an acre and a half of wooded land for $7,000 and built our family a 44 foot diameter dome. I had absolutely NO problems getting a loan from from my local banker. I had very few problems getting insurance. I did all of this 13 years ago. We love our dome and would find it very hard to move back into a box type home. Within 5 miles of our dome you can find 4 other domes and to the best of my knowledge none of those people had the problems that so many of you are talking about. I've done it. So can you. Stop making excuses and make your dreams come true. By the way, I do have a job but I'm far from being well off. I'm just an every day sort of guy that chased his dream and made it a reality. May you all have a joyous holiday season !!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:39:00 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bill Long Subject: alternatives (was re: rest in peace) >From: Ken Latta > >[paragraph deleted] > >Now I'm not for or against them, just trying to understand them. >Some other issues, utilities hookup. I believe almost every dwelling >should be connected to the utilities grid unless the cost of >connection is truly prohibitive. While I support exploratory >technology, few dwellings only ever have one owner. Re-use >requires flexibility. > >Even the "bad" technologies aren't always so obviously bad. Consider >electricity. The encouragement of electric vehicles for instance >represents an increase in demand. And don't forget that one of >Fullers' goals was the world power grid which would permit the distribution >of electricity generated by the most benign sources (wind, hydro, natural >gas). > >[more stuff deleted] I don't get it. I guess I feel this is an issue that Bucky goofed on. I fail to see what advantage a world power grid would have. Sure, power could be distributed from energy rich regions to areas not so fortunate, but it could be witheld just as easily. If a dwelling can be energy self- sufficient then why not? In fact I think every dwelling should produce, store, and use its own power (thermal, mechanical, or electrical) and I don't think this is an unrealistic goal. Remember, electricity is only as clean as the fuel that was burned to produce it (a significant contributor to the eastern U.S.'s acid rain problem is coal fired generation plants in the mid-west for example) and besides that any "grid" will contain control nodes that may be prone to tamperring (I won't go so far as to say energy terrorism). Localized generation of electricity would have none of these pitfalls (maybe others). More disheartening than the fact that there are not more domes in use is the fact that more existing homes haven't been retrofitted with solar-electric panels. Yeah, the cost at this time is prohibitive to most of us, but would that be the case if as much money was spent on solar R&D as is currently spent looking for, drilling for, transporting, and cleaning up oil?...I don't think so. As for flexibility, how many of us would know how to operate the gas lamps that were used for lighting homes at the turn of the century (in the US anyway)? Their improper use could lead to asphixiation or explosion. Even the batteries I would use to store my solar generated electricity carry with them certain hazards (don't want to spill battery acid all over) and their production has a detrimental impact on our environment. For that matter the wind-driven electrical generator/water pump I intend to build one day soon might pose a threat to local birds and hawks, the gas pipeline that will be skirting along the edge of my property may disrupt the feeding range of the local deer population, and many early hydro-electric dams were built with no consideration of how they might affect fish species that need to spawn upstream (or the value of the land that was flooded to produce them). We need to be flexible of mind in order to utilize the advances that are within the realm of possibility while minimizing the impact (read damage) we produce on this earth and I don't see a world power grid leading to this type of innovative thought...just dependancy on existing technology. I realize that I look at this issue within the context of my own limited point of view. If you can expand it, please do. billong ->not a dome virgin anymore! somewhere in Clinton county, Upstate New York, bienvennue to my french- canadian neighbors ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:36:00 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bill Long Subject: Re: Inovation Where You Find it... >From: THE END IS NIE! > >[two paragraphs about George Dyson's canoe building techniques deleted] Neat! Has this person written any books detailing his work? If so could you please forward references to me? >Add one more nifty idea to the dome pile. >It will not help much. > >Why? Why are domes not poping up all over? >Why have I not made one? > >For me, the answer is simple: NO LAND. >I can conceptualize all day, sketch out neet dezines, make plans... >but untill I have a piece of earth to call my own, I will never make one... But aren't you in california, the land of the commune? Is it not possible to find people there with similar interests and lifestyles and combine your resources to get some land...or find someone willing to let you try out your ideas on their land? In the meantime you could build scale models that would help you work out any bugs in your designs and would also give you something to show to people that you're trying to demonstrate your ideas to. >Round where I live, a 50x70 ft lot runs for 65 thousand $$$, starting... >I, if I could find full time employment, at say, $5 an hour, 40 hrs a week, >in about 15 YEARS I could afford to by a lot...assueming I forsake all other >dreams... > >Add in building costs...however minimal... >That dream is too distant, too far away. Low-cost housing starts with low-cost building lots. I mean, it would make no sense to build a dome in NYC but there are areas AROUND the city where lot sizes are larger and more affordable and not too far to commute if you had to. Is it that much different in California? I don't know what skills you have or what you do, but don't set your sights too low. You have at your disposal one of the most powerful analitical tools known to man...the human mind! If you can't find work where you are and the cost of living is so high then what is keeping you there? And remember, without your ideas and dreams what good would money be to you anyway...it'll keep you fed and warm and in the same old rut...alive but empty. >I am very pore. This may not be your case. >If you are not, I say to you: Why are you not LIVING YOUR DREAM? >If it is making domes, DO IT! Others will say "Neet, could I do that?" >or "By God, stand back, that thing looks dangerouse!" >Eather way, you will have done it. If you have the means by which to >change your ideas into reality, do it. > >I envy you. PLEASE! I have a good job and own land but its not as simple as that. I recently left my wife (my decision) so now I have 29 acres of land that I pay for but don't really have access to. After I make my mortgage payment and pay the bills and put gas in my vehicle and eat I've got squat, and it was because I had VERY LITTLE MONEY that I had to build a small dome to store my stuff in. Adversity can sometimes be the motivating factor. If I had lots of money to burn I might just have bought one or two of those steel storage buildings for my junk and let it go at that. I assume you eat and pay rent somewhere...have you ever added up how much that rent amounts to each year? That's what I used to do for years, while I worked at low paying jobs and couldn't save money as fast as the real-estate market seemed to be inflating...it was very frustrating. When I bought my property I thought my troubles would be over now that I was a land-owner but life has a way of throwing you a curve just when you're ready for a fastball. >If you do not, do as I must, and strive for the means to change your status, >and that of those around you. > >In the meanwhile, untell I can afford a place to call Home, I keep listening >here, and keep my little dreams alive...I hope yours fair well. > >C.R LeFay You must keep ALL your dreams alive...the big ones as well, and keep striving on ALL fronts. Sure you will attain the small dreams sooner but remember that if you truly want something then it is worth all your sweat, agravation, and time until you finally achieve it and as long as you don't give up achieve it you will! >*********************** >Rhysling@Euclid.Humboldt.Edu >Po Box 942 >Arcata, >Ca, 95521 >No Phone/No home >:I >*********************** Bill Long longwj@splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 09:31:00 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: MSTEVE@CLEMSON.CLEMSON.EDU Subject: hurricanes and hardware One of the nice things I get to do as a librarian in an architectural library is look at all of the interesting new books that we recieve. We have just recieved "A Manual for Hurricane Resistant Construction", published by the Southern Building Code Congress International, Inc., 1992. This is a tool for the insurance industry, and so there is no mention of any type of structure besides the conventional box. I look at drawings of surge and wave forces, and wind forces on walls and roofs and I wonder how the dome would fair in the 150+mph winds that nature serves up in those spectacular events we call hurricanes. Does anyone have first-hand knowledge of domes that have had to weather these storms? Another thing that I have been curious about for some time, when I dream about hammering nails and watching my future dome reach for the sky, is fasciners. I know very little at this point about dome construction. I have helped put up a few boxes in my time. What gage of steel is needed to hold a dome together, given the inherent strength of the triangle and the integrity of the dome form? 16 to 18 gage is common for joist hangers, and other such hardware in box construction. I would think that a much lighter material could be used, allowing dome builders to press their own plates for this porpose, with relative ease. Please enlighten me. Seeking knowledge, Steve Moon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:33:48 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: dosemagt@UWWVAX.UWW.EDU Subject: RE: hurricanes and hardware You might want to try purchasing a connector system from a dome manufacturer. Natural Spaces in North Branch Minnesota will sell you just a connector system. You can call 1-800-733-7107 for more information. I'm not sure , but I think if you purchase their system they will provide you with all of the specs to cut all of your own panels etc. Ask them to send you their All About Domes book. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:51:56 EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Trimtab Subject: Re: Kick Start In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:28:09 GMT from You are investigating what I consider to be one of Fuller's most significant, y et least known, of Fuller's contributions to humanity, the Dymaxion Map (consta nt zenith) projection. I assume that this is what you mean by WGS84. Information on this map projection which does not significantly distort the rel ative sizes and positions of the continents can be found in Critical Path and Gr unch of Giants by Fuller. For the mathematical information you should see Syne rgetics I and II and the actual patent information found in Inventions the paten ted Works of Buckminster Fuller. Also see The Minds Eye of Buckminster Fuller by Donald Robertson (Fuller Patent Attorney). Perhaps it is time to repost my Annotated Bibliography. Anyone interested? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:33:19 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: RE: Re: Inovation Where You Find it... Mr Long: (any relation to Lazerus?) I must agrea! All dreams must be kept alive! However, it is indead esey to despair...We all have the good/bad days. In refrence to comuenal living, I have made efforts into this avenue. My observations and coments are as follows: 1) It is difficult, but not inpossable, to find people who both want to Live in a Comuenal way AND also HAVE AT LEAST SOME MONEY. 2) Of those with both of the above, a vast number of them are unexceptable to ME because of a fue common resones that I have come across: A) They wish to secead from the Union, and do not have a functional plan to do so. I put them in the crazy bin...becuase they are both extream, and do not have two intelegent thoughts put together to make it work. (Extreams are OK by me, IF they WORK) 3) There is an intention to perform illegal actions which I find obhorant in the comeun. Growing Dope, manufactuering speed, etc. That is no way to make money...(adding to the sickness) 4) Members wish to make a totleiterian government out of the comuen, with guess who in controll... Aside from the above, one must also get along with ones naighbors, this eliminat ing, with the above, 95% of attempted comuens from my list... Not imposable. but difficult. ON LAND IN CALIFORNIA: By GOD! yes, the prices are THAT BAD...I live in a piss-ant university-loging town...you would think land would be in the glut...not so. I have gone over maps at the accesors office, and scouted out land on foot... I'v made offers...but if land is BUILDABLE (ie, not a cliff face) it is expensiv ve, without exception. I'v bben to reposesed land octions...after vueing the land..all the plots below 20,000$$ where both unbuildable...and unsold... Why don't I move? Say, where did you say you lived...? (By the Way, the name of the book was Baidarka, by George Dyson, son of Freyman Dyson, the Physisist, creater of the Dyson Sphere) :I *wave* C.R. Lefay ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:07:51 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: RE: RE: Inovation Where You Find it... I glad it worked out for you... By-the-way, do you have any idea how much your 7,000$ acerage, uniproved, would sell for today? Perhapse we all must finde our where/when to success.. Maybe Cali ain't the place... C.R. Lefay ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 16:11:01 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Jim Lutz Subject: Re[2]: Kick Start Perhaps it is time to repost my Annotated Bibliography. Anyone interested? YES! Please do. Jim Lutz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:16:55 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: THE END IS NIE! Subject: RE: RE: hurricanes and hardware Or, better yet, cut out the expensive middle man, have alot of fun, and lern to make them yourself. Geodesic Math is Fun! Fabricating is FUN! It is easy! Advertisements for Natural Spaces is not fun. It is getting tiresome. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 04:24:18 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: Hank Roberts Subject: Re: hurricanes and hardware I saw a photo of a dome surrounded by debris in Florida after Hurricane Andrew, and heard a mention that domes had held up well. But it was a passing glance, I don't recall the source. Anyone else? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:41:00 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: GIVE PEAS A CHANCE Subject: Request for BIG Project Bibli/Contacts.. Howdy... 'We' are in the midst of a major Masterplan undertaking to redo our Musuem (c. 54,000 sq. ' now on 60 acres) and Wildlife Center (zoo). I will be working with architects/exhibit consultants on the design/ model which will be the Center's future. Our natural history collections, technology, interactive exhibits are to be integrated with the wildlife... Sort of bioregion pods 'growing off" the main building. Point: I'd love to tellthe architects that the pods must be designed as geodesic domes... functional, aesthetic, and a palpable signature of our mission of environmental education (global change research). I have a rather conservative Boardof Trustees...but if I am adequately prepared on cost-effectiveness --as well as vision and ethics--I know I can sell this. Any references or contacts you can supply would be GREATLY appreciated! Lois (Brynes) Associate Director New England Science Center Worcester, MA internet lbrynes@vax.clarku.edu bitnet lbrynes@clarku= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 14:21:11 GMT Reply-To: ivan@rec.msk.su Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: ivanov oleg petrovich Subject: ??E-mail Addresses of Magellan, Trimble and other firms made GPS devices Hello, who has any experience in work with GPS devices of TRIMBLE, MAGELLAN or other firms ? I want ask some questions about boards of these firms and E-mail addresses of these firms are interesting for me. Mary Christmas, Thanks in advance, -- Sincerely Oleg Ivanov RECOM Ltd Moscow ||| Email: ivan@rec.msk.su Fax: 007 (095) 196 1635 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 17:29:56 +0200 Reply-To: ivan@rec.msk.su Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU From: ivanov oleg petrovich Subject: Help with E-mail addresses of Trimble, Magellan and other GPS- devices firms !!! Hello, Happy New Year! Does any one have used GPS devices of Magellan Corp , Trimble Navigation or any other firms in differential mode? I search the best choice for system which must take position must get position with accuracy about 1 meter. I am interesting in E-mail addresses firm mentioned above too. Any proposals will be welcome. Send answers on my E-mail address, please. Thanks in advance, -- Sincerely Oleg Ivanov RECOM Ltd Moscow ||| Email: ivan@rec.msk.su Fax: 007 (095) 196 1635