From MAILER-DAEMON@netaxs.com Tue Oct 24 21:33:46 1995 Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [128.205.2.1]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id VAA19990 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 21:33:46 -0400 Message-Id: <199510250133.VAA19990@access.netaxs.com> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5617; Tue, 24 Oct 95 21:31:51 EDT Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0540; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:34:19 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:33:30 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8b)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9501" To: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 11:09:12 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Global energy grid > >When we're speaking about culture, we're speaking, in general about Law. >Fuller never addressed the issue of Law, what Law is and what stands >it. > What about "Legally Piggily" in Critical Path, LAWCAP, FINCAP etc? Not sure I understand "never addressed". The whole business of private property law and landlordism is discussed in Grunch of Giants. >In this day Law itself is generally regarded as the supreme >power in society and its political institutions. That is, to >say, even political leaders are subjects to the Law, e.g. >U.S. v. Nixon. But politicians legislate and have a way of writing in lots of exemptions and loopholes for the privileged. The Law is not handed down on Mt. Sinai by God, but is written by humans for other humans -- their can be a tyranny of laws as well as of lawyers. >The whole point of this is that there are subtleties to >Fuller's thinking which have political ramifications. Agreed. > Obviously we are going to have to engage Law at some point > to, say, impliment the Energy Grid, to clean up the water, to allow > the free flow of information. At some point we're say you can do >this and not this and we're backing it with the power to take life. Some codes don't have the death penalty. >Is this ethical? Is it ethical to say that we are not >politically inclined when the Energy Grid Proposal contains >elements of Socialism--i.e., presumably all this stuff is >going to be controlled by the state. (if not the state then >who? It going to take an institution to run it). Certainly Fuller's vision was not of a state-controlled global grid, since his states have largely become sponsored entities with very little real power (see G of G). >There is also an element of State health care and State sponsored art, >e.g., the National Endowment for the Arts, underlaying much of Fuller's >arguments. This would all known as Facism if it were known by another name. No, Facisim is not the same thing as state sponsored health or art programs. Sweden is not a Facist state. >How do we plan to IMPOSE our beliefs on others? Who is "we"? Fuller's general contention was that artifacts, e.g. the Sony Walkman, are less ideological than ideologies or political agendas. Chinese, USAers, Swedes, all adopt Walkmans because their useful. Same goes for energy grids, global or not. Fuller focused on artifacts, supposing their introduction would make waves in political domains, but that the design science focus on design over ideology would supposedly neutralize or make irrelevant much of that Socialism versus Capitalism junk. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Not sure I understand "never addressed". The whole business of > private property law and landlordism is discussed in Grunch of Giants. > Buckminster Fuller virtually addressed law (small l) the way he virtually (in essense, but not in fact) addressed many things. He never addressed Law (capital L) in anyway that would be recognizable as Law. When I use the word law I mean law as statutory law & common law (as generalizations) as well as law in terms of its particulars, e.g., Article I U.> Constitution, etc. The difference is one of usage. When I use Law, I mean Law as a principle and what it stands for in itself. Law exists in perpetuity (at least potenially). I'm attempting to make this analogy: Law comes from Religion as the word of God (past) is to Law comes from Politics as the word of _____ (present) Law = God > >In this day Law itself is generally regarded as the supreme > >power in society and its political institutions. That is, to > >say, even political leaders are subjects to the Law, e.g. > >U.S. v. Nixon. > > But politicians legislate and have a way of writing in lots > of exemptions and loopholes for the privileged. The Law > is not handed down on Mt. Sinai by God, but is written > by humans for other humans -- their can be a tyranny of laws > as well as of lawyers. The fact that some people escape the law has no bering on whether or not they are subject to Law. Some people commit crimes and never get caught, but the provision for punishment under law exists. Loopholes are places that the law (statute) does not cover, ergo the activity is permitted in terms of Law. But the 10 Commandments are statutory (law) The idea that something exists (in the case of Moses), i.e., God, that has the right and the power to govern human behavior does exist. Its created by ideology. And it is always and ultimately backed by the power to take human life through the institutions that created it. For example, A man is stopped by the police for jay-walking. The policeman decides to write the man a citation. The man refuses to be cited by the law (Part IV Sec. blah blah blah) and walks away. The policeman, governed by other laws, must arrest the suspect. The man resists arrest. The policeman gets physical, the suspect gets physical. The policeman shoots the suspect killing him. This has nothing to do with whether or not the death penalty is the statutory punishment for the crime, it has to do with the absolute authority of Law (again, capital L). The integrity of Law is preserved (backed) by the principle to create and to destroy. > > >The whole point of this is that there are subtleties to > >Fuller's thinking which have political ramifications. > > Agreed. > > > Obviously we are going to have to engage Law at some point > > to, say, impliment the Energy Grid, to clean up the water, to allow > > the free flow of information. At some point we're say you can do > >this and not this and we're backing it with the power to take life. > > Some codes don't have the death penalty. > > >Is this ethical? Is it ethical to say that we are not > >politically inclined when the Energy Grid Proposal contains > >elements of Socialism--i.e., presumably all this stuff is > >going to be controlled by the state. (if not the state then > >who? It going to take an institution to run it). > > Certainly Fuller's vision was not of a state-controlled global > grid, since his states have largely become sponsored entities > with very little real power (see G of G). Somebody is going to have to build and maintain the Grid, that's going to require an institution of somesort. When the institution comes into being, you're going to engage Law. Sorry, I don't have a Fuller library anymore, I sold it off with the number of moves I've made over the years. I can only quote from what in my notes, which is mainly Synergetics. > > >There is also an element of State health care and State sponsored art, > >e.g., the National Endowment for the Arts, underlaying much of Fuller's > >arguments. This would all known as Facism if it were known by another name. > > No, Facisim is not the same thing as state sponsored health or art programs. > Sweden is not a Facist state. Facism is National Socialism. In any despotic country that you visit you will see that the government controls all the major industry. E.g., the telephone company, the power company, the hospitals, the schools and universities, and many others. I might beg to differ on whether or not Sweden as -well-as other socialist nations are facist. Facism contains the whole notion of"cradle to the grave" and strict curbs on free enterprise (usury?) with extremely high taxes and exorbitant import duties. The ideology behind Facism is essentially that the person exists for the sake of the state, and not for himself. (Ask not what your country can do for you......) Its completely destructive to the individual. Much of Fuller's philosophy contains the idea of self-sacrifice (Christianity) and duty to the state, he said "to Humanity." State sponsored art is almost always used for propaganda. Howdo we plan to IMPOSE our beliefs on others? > > Who is "we"? Fuller's general contention was that artifacts, e.g. the Sony > Walkman, are less ideological than ideologies or political agendas. > Chinese, USAers, Swedes, all adopt Walkmans because their useful. > Same goes for energy grids, global or not. Fuller focused on artifacts, > supposing their introduction would make waves in political domains, > but that the design science focus on design over ideology would supposedly > neutralize or make irrelevant much of that Socialism versus Capitalism > junk. When I say we I mean you and I and all of the other people who are engaged in Fuller's work. Ideology is not mere junk. Many people are moved to kill each other over the questions that I'm asking. Some of the things I've said could get me killed if I were in the wrong place. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 15:38:35 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Campbell/Grid Position/Summary X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu The reason that I oppose the Global Energy Grid and other Global projects is this: 1) An institution is going to be created to manage it. The most likely thing is that a new United Nations entity will be created (UNCHR, UNHABITAT, UNESCO, World Bank, etc.) The United Nations has: 1) its own army 2) its own banks 3) its own currency 4) its own university Why should it have it's own Global Power Company? 2) Since the creation of the entity to run the Global Energy Grid is permitted by Law, its creation is going to be opposed, at least eventually, by large groups of heavily armed individuals 1) Dev Sol 2) PKK 3) Hizballah 4) Hamas Just to name a few. Other opposition groups will be created (illegally under our concept of Law, but not under theirs) as the need arises, even here in America--there are already a few, the Aryan Nations and the Millitia of Montana for instance. 3) The energy grid will become a political target, used to play out ideological battles. 4) Our (UN, American, you and I) concept of Law will have to be preserved, precipitating the taking of human life. 5) The Global Energy grid strengthens an institution which might not be in everyones best interest. 6) The Grid can be interrupted or shut off. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 18:14:33 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Global energy grid/Urner >When I use the word law I mean law as statutory law & common law (as >generalizations) as well as law in terms of its particulars, e.g., Article I >U. Constitution, etc. The difference is one of usage. > >When I use Law, I mean Law as a principle and what it stands for in >itself. Law exists in perpetuity (at least potenially). I'm attempting >to make this analogy: >Law comes from Religion as the word of God (past) >is to >Law comes from Politics as the word of _____ (present) >Law = God I don't understand the analogy. If you mean Law as a generalized principle as Fuller spoke of "generalize principle", you mean something closer to "natural law" (as in physics) or "exceptionless rule" -- but that doesn't seem to be the distinction you're making. >Loopholes are places that the law (statute) does not cover, ergo the activity >is permitted in terms of Law. What's legal is legal, I agree. My point was that legislation can be highly skewed towards the interests of a particular group. I take it you agree with this. I don't see where Fuller skirted the issue, but that seems to be addressed in your law vs Law distinction, which I'm not understanding. >Somebody is going to have to build and maintain the Grid, that's going to >require an institution of somesort. When the institution comes into >being, you're going to engage Law. I don't see any one "somebody" running the grid. No one entity governs all the communications systems which are already global. We have lots of power grids already and the grid Fuller is talking about involves bridging existing grids, not building a new grid from scratch. Here in Oregon, the Bonneville Power Administration, set up as part of the Federal gov't ages ago, generates power for the grid and sells it to other administrations in California etc. Presumably, if we had a global grid, Bonneville could sell power to places further away, as well as purchase. Lots of separate authorities can and do administer grids today, even though they're interconnected. Sometimes people talk of privatizing BPA, making it no longer a Federal entity. But it already behaves very much like a private entity -- no one in Washington DC has much to say about what BPA can and cannot do. >Facism is National Socialism. In any despotic country that you visit you >will see that the government controls all the major industry. E.g., the >telephone company, the power company, the hospitals, the schools and >universities, and many others. Hospitals and schools are not often examples of "major industry" -- usually underfunded, often staffed and run by religious orders, not the government per se. Where the government is in charge, it often has very little money to spare, since schools and hospitals are for common folk. Actually, many countries are oligarchic. Rich families with lots of land place their members in key government positions -- nepotism abounds. A small elite basically runs the country in ways that favor their private business interests -- often the big money enterprises are not government owned per se, just protected by "friends in high places." Then large supranationals form another clique of asset-controlling entities, often with some inter-mix of local elites and corporate personnel. Who knows whom is critical. Bribes and pay-offs determine who gets the contracts and privileges. In many of these countries, government is nothing like a totalitarian controller of key industries, but a chaotic, under-funded mess riddled with corruption and puppeted by private families and foreign business interests. >State sponsored art is almost always used for propaganda. Advertising is propaganda by another name. Most of the "art" you and I are exposed to on a daily basis is commericially sponsored. Our consumerist ideology is extremely sophisticated, media-wise, and is good at keeping people in line (in debt and on the job). >Ideology is not mere junk. Many people are moved to kill each other over >the questions that I'm asking. Some of the things I've said could get me >killed if I were in the wrong place. > People die for and get killed for worthless, junky ideologies all the time, the way it looks for me. This is tragic, but proves all the more that ideology is often junk, like drugs are junk, like ideologies can be more damaging than drugs (like you say, language affects physiology in deep and severe ways). Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: 2) Since the creation of the entity to run the Global Energy Grid is >permitted by Law, its creation is going to be opposed, at least >eventually, by large groups of heavily armed individuals > > 1) Dev Sol > 2) PKK > 3) Hizballah > 4) Hamas As I mentioned, no totalitarian monolith is required to grip the globe because of this grid idea. Internet is quasi-global and no sinister UN agency runs the internet. Satellite communications, microwave companies, telecommunications companies, all bring dial tone to homes and businesses around the world, and some players in that industry are much bigger than others, but no giant Phone Agency runs the world's telecommuncations, which are already global. Why does this power grid have to be so different? A hodgepodge of quasi-local entities can handle their pieces of the grid and sell power to one another -- this is already the way it is right now. We have a network of roads, interstates in the US, but continuous with road systems in Canada, Mexico, Central America etc. What giant Agency controls the western hemisphere's Road System? I just don't think your paranoia about connecting hitherto unconnected grids is well-founded. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Global energy grid/Urner X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu On Sun, 1 Jan 1995, Kirby Urner wrote: > >When I use the word law I mean law as statutory law & common law (as > >generalizations) as well as law in terms of its particulars, e.g., Article I > >U. Constitution, etc. The difference is one of usage. > > > >When I use Law, I mean Law as a principle and what it stands for in > >itself. Law exists in perpetuity (at least potenially). I'm attempting > >to make this analogy: > >Law comes from Religion as the word of God (past) > >is to > >Law comes from Politics as the word of _____ (present) > >Law = God > > I don't understand the analogy. If you mean Law as a generalized > principle as Fuller spoke of "generalize principle", you mean something > closer to "natural law" (as in physics) or "exceptionless rule" -- but that > doesn't seem to be the distinction you're making. No. This is precisely what I mean when I said that Fuller never addressed the Law as anything recognizable as Law. Natural Law is a doctrine of that exists in opposition to something called Positive Law. Benjamin Cardozo is an example of a naturalist lawyer, Oliver Wendell Holmes was a positivist. We see here that the concept of God is split in two. We have the God that governs nature (Cardozo has nothing to do with this), the design scientist God--so to speak--and we have the God that governs society. You didn't address my thought problem policeman v. suspect. You grapple with Fuller's ideas fine, I can't see how you have trouble seeing the difference between law as statute (special-case) and Law governance (generalization). Let me add a little more to the analogy. The God that governs society=Law=politics=the State=Global Decision Making Body (possibly UNGDMB in the very near future). > > >Loopholes are places that the law (statute) does not cover, ergo the activity > >is permitted in terms of Law. > > What's legal is legal, I agree. My point was that legislation can be > highly skewed towards the interests of a particular group. I take it you > agree with this. I don't see where Fuller skirted the issue, but that > seems to be addressed in your law vs Law distinction, which I'm not > understanding. > Well, I'm not say what is legal is legal, that's a positivists' view point. In terms of Law I would say I'm a naturalist--which says that laws that are not moral are not really laws, though I have a great deal of trouble proving that laws which are amoral are illegal. Basically because proving what is moral without refering to the Tanakh is very difficult. Which is part of my argument against Fuller's world view. Fuller can't prove what is moral any better than I can. The problem here is that people who want to see the world work for everyone, including myself, are making a fundamental misassumption, that everyone's going to cooperate in this process, as well as assuming that we don't have to address the fundamental problems of Society and human governance that have haunted Humanity throught the ages > >Somebody is going to have to build and maintain the Grid, that's going to > >require an institution of somesort. When the institution comes into > >being, you're going to engage Law. > > I don't see any one "somebody" running the grid. No one entity > governs all the communications systems which are already global. > We have lots of power grids already and the grid Fuller is talking > about involves bridging existing grids, not building a new grid from > scratch. Here in Oregon, the Bonneville Power Administration, set up > as part of the Federal gov't ages ago, generates power for the grid and > sells it to other administrations in California etc. Presumably, if we > had a global grid, Bonneville could sell power to places further away, > as well as purchase. Lots of separate authorities can and do administer > grids today, even though they're interconnected. Sometimes people > talk of privatizing BPA, making it no longer a Federal entity. But it > already behaves very much like a private entity -- no one in Washington > DC has much to say about what BPA can and cannot do. Your point about the Internet is well taken. What we are doing right now is participating in our own governance and that is what makes us human, for a human who does not participate in his or her own governance is a slave. Nonetheless, access to this can be restricted as i'm sure it is in places like Turkey. You haven't seen a Lybian gopher server have you? Nor Iran nor Iraq. It might be worth it to check this out, but I would suspect that those countries are prohibited on this system. I forgot to add in my criticism that people can be forced to pay for this service, but it would be much easier to cause people to pay for their energy from the GEG, since we're already paying for the local Grid. You don't think that paying for it could resrict access, say in Ethiopia? > > >Facism is National Socialism. In any despotic country that you visit you > >will see that the government controls all the major industry. E.g., the > >telephone company, the power company, the hospitals, the schools and > >universities, and many others. > > Hospitals and schools are not often examples of "major industry" -- usually > underfunded, often staffed and run by religious orders, not the government > per se. Where the government is in charge, it often has very little money > to spare, since schools and hospitals are for common folk. No kidding! They are major industries they're also regarded as necessities, that's why the government goes for them first, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." > > Actually, many countries are oligarchic. Rich families with lots of land > place their members in key government positions -- nepotism abounds. > A small elite basically runs the country in ways that favor their private > business interests -- often the big money enterprises are not government > owned per se, just protected by "friends in high places." Then large > supranationals form another clique of asset-controlling entities, often > with some inter-mix of local elites and corporate personnel. Who knows > whom is critical. Bribes and pay-offs determine who gets the contracts > and privileges. In many of these countries, government is nothing like > a totalitarian controller of key industries, but a chaotic, under-funded > mess riddled with corruption and puppeted by private families > and foreign business interests. > That would be a plutocracy. You don't see that as Facistic? And since socialist countries are "chaotic, under-funded messes riddled with corruption and puppeted by private families and foreign business interest" you would like to try that on a global scale, which, incidentally, is Communism. > >State sponsored art is almost always used for propaganda. > > Advertising is propaganda by another name. Most of the "art" you > and I are exposed to on a daily basis is commericially sponsored. > Our consumerist ideology is extremely sophisticated, media-wise, > and is good at keeping people in line (in debt and on the job). Another good point. But take a look at how Hitler used the arts. When the government controls art, the art says what the government wants. I'm creating art here and I'm saying this the government doesn't like. > > >Ideology is not mere junk. Many people are moved to kill each other over > >the questions that I'm asking. Some of the things I've said could get me > >killed if I were in the wrong place. > > > > People die for and get killed for worthless, junky ideologies all the time, > the way it looks for me. This is tragic, but proves all the more that > ideology is often junk, like drugs are junk, like ideologies can be more > damaging than drugs (like you say, language affects physiology in deep > and severe ways). > > Kirby Some people might get killed for their beliefs. If their beliefs are junk then its because you don't believe as they do. You have an ideology--that the world should work for everyone, you don't regard that as junk. I believe that I can go to a despotic country and write what I think. That could get me killed in Turkey. Is my ideology junk? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 23:09:53 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Campbell/Grid Position/Summary X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu On Sun, 1 Jan 1995, Kirby Urner wrote: > At 03:38 PM 1/1/95 -0700, Edward H Campbell wrote: > >The reason that I oppose the Global Energy Grid and other Global projects > >is this: > > > >1) An institution is going to be created to manage it. The most likely > >thing is that a new United Nations entity will be created (UNCHR, > >UNHABITAT, UNESCO, World Bank, etc.) > > The World Bank is not a United Nations entity, nor is the International > Monetary Fund. > > > > >The United Nations has: > > 1) its own army > > 2) its own banks > > 3) its own currency > > 4) its own university > > > >Why should it have it's own Global Power Company? > > Fuller in Grunch of Giants did not see global convergence heading > up in the United Nations. Your vision of the grid may disturb you, > but it is not the same vision Fuller had, nor the one his "followers" > are presumably working towards. I got the feeling that Fuller thought the United Nations was the "cat's Pajamas." After all he proposed a giant geoscope be erected in Queens, across the East River in NYC, so that the big wigs in the UN Plaza could gaze at their oyster. If you haven't noticed the United Nations has become a target for terrorism. Those American groups that I mentioned have already avowed violent opposition to the United Nations. I know that neither you nor I intend for global government to be harmful. I don't even know that it would be, but still the opposition to it is there. Global is definitely where government is headed. > > >2) Since the creation of the entity to run the Global Energy Grid is > >permitted by Law, its creation is going to be opposed, at least > >eventually, by large groups of heavily armed individuals > > > > 1) Dev Sol > > 2) PKK > > 3) Hizballah > > 4) Hamas > > As I mentioned, no totalitarian monolith is required to grip the globe > because of this grid idea. Internet is quasi-global and no sinister UN > agency runs the internet. Satellite communications, microwave > companies, telecommunications companies, all bring dial tone to > homes and businesses around the world, and some players in that > industry are much bigger than others, but no giant Phone Agency > runs the world's telecommuncations, which are already global. > Why does this power grid have to be so different? A hodgepodge > of quasi-local entities can handle their pieces of the grid and sell > power to one another -- this is already the way it is right now. We > have a network of roads, interstates in the US, but continuous with > road systems in Canada, Mexico, Central America etc. What giant > Agency controls the western hemisphere's Road System? I just don't > think your paranoia about connecting hitherto unconnected grids > is well-founded. > O.k. Well a hodgepodge of local entities is what we have now and you see how well that feeds everyone. Interstates are controlled access highways, maybe you've seen one cordonded off before. You might also want to note that these conversations can be monitored, not by just the FBI, or the FCC but by those groups that I mentioned. You and I could make a name for ourselves here that could have dire ramifications. If I ended up in O.J. Simpson's position these postings would be used as evidence that I had a complete disrespect for authority. I don't see that as paranoid at all, but as something that happens time and time again. You probably remember the charts that were made by the Republican Party showing the mess of bureaucracy that would have been created by President Clinton's Health Care Plan, Try to imagine what could happen in the UN expaned much further. Since, as I said, the UN is a target for terrorism, this "global property" that we're creating is going to need to be protected, which means the UN is going to need an army to watch out for those dams so that the Earth First people don't blow them up. And the reservoirs for water could be poisioned with chemical or biological weapons, so they must be guarded. This is all standard stuff that every municipality in America has to deal with on a daily basis. Have you every seen the security systems in NYC? And after all of this is done the UN is going to need an intelligence service to keep track of activities that threaten its authority. Now who's going to pay for all of this? Its certainly going to take alot of tax money to pay for all those $10,000 hammers! :-) I think Bucky's Black Box idea is much better. It gives the individual some power. And when that happens these political structures will come unhinged. The political structures themselves are the ones that are paranoid, just look at what they do to protect themselves--they take human life. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 12:32:27 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Angle is Everything In <199501010015.QAA07872@desiree.teleport.com> pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) writes: >Symbolic manipulation is not the same as computation (I knew it was >semantics). Of course you can use Greek letters and little symbols to >represent irrationals and manipulate them forever to make nice tidy little >equations that fill math and physics books. That's all well and good >(I have such a symbolic manipulator program myself and get lots of >value out of it). But when you finally decide to get some readings, >to deal with natural measures and quantities, you'll have to plug in >digits, or analog voltages, and what you get out will have a finite number >of significant digits. This is not because nature is using irrationals >but we just can't be that precise, but because nature is not using irrationals >-- the concept has no meaning at the phenomenological level. it all comes down to levels of resolution or universes of discourse, i believe. we may be inclined to see the bicycle wheel as a polygonal set of event foci travelling in formation due to their critical proximity and self-reinforcing interaction, but Bicycle Repair Man should see the wheel as circular. quantum mechanics is a brilliant and detailed theory of the behavior of subatomic particles, but getting the shuttle into orbit involves experts of many different fields, all dealing mainly (not entirely) in their own area of expertise and paying attention to a particular level of detail or resolution. there were no quantum mechanics involved. whether nature does or does not use irrationals (or any numbers for that matter) is probably unimportant. using numbers is a way of describing a physical situation, and nature just *is*, it doesn't have to describe anything. it's only we big-headed apes that feel compelled to fit nature into our formal constructions, and expect her to restrict herself to rational numbers or to ideal irrationals. we're just spectators, trying to develop a language with which to discuss what we see. assuming our model of physics is right (it's JUST a model) to say that energy is quantized, then we're still left with the level of resolution with which we choose to view any given situation. purely nonrelatvistic, non-quantum-mechanical thinking was necessary to put the shuttle in orbit. pure classical physics, newtonian physics! such problems cannot be sensibly worked out on the basis of quantum mechanical models, so we choose to ignore the graniness of the picture and assume that the colors are smooth - and suddenly we're able to develop the necessary mathematical tools to get the job done. there is nobody on the planet with absolutely certain knowledge that energy is quantized, and that nothing is continuous. our observations, via our instruments and experiments, seem to point in that direction at this stage in history, so we've built a pretty effective model of reality based on that assumption. the problem with Bucky is that he went a little off the deep end in his own concept of himself, and presumed that his vision was somehow *the* complete vision of reality and not just a model. he even had the books printed with biblical-style paragraph numbering. the only problem here is that it's a bit sensationalist (a tad Dymaxion?) to build such pseudo-religious hoopla around one's ideas, and the end result is reluctance among educated folks and cultism among the others. he created a fascinating work (i remain fascinated!) but he also created a minefield. >>eye on the errors. the alternative is to calculate with rationals >>that have an unlimited number of digits - which is slow, and you don't >>win in the end anyway because you have to round off for a sensible answer. >And what would be the point? Nature does not offer quantities to us that >would require unlimited numbers of digits, even in principle. the point is this: if you're raw materials are a bunch of numbers to, say, 12 digits accuracy (outrageous, but anyway) and you do some serious calculations with them, it is sensible to do the calculations using sixty-some digits (or whatever) and be completely aware of the introduction of any errors *and* of the number of digits accuracy of your results. if you do the same calculations based on rational 12-digit numbers, you can easily end up with a 4259-digit denominator after a while - which you have to round off in the end anyway. in a practical situation, it means nothing to restrict yourself to rational numbers, because the numbers are fuzzy anyway. in a theoretical description, however, it may be interesting. but still, unless *everything* (including movement, for example) is proven to be discontinuous - nowhere is there "flow"! - you're shooting yourself in the foot to stick to a level of resolution involving whole numbers. with those tools you can only stare in starry-eyed wonder at the behavior of a flywheel, because with your rational accounting you can't figure out the first thing! somebody who's put on his smoky glasses and sees the situation in terms of smooth circles and infinitessimal tangents can "calculate rings around you", because he's chosen an appropriate level of resolution. >precise. Because of the uncertainty principle etc., nature has an upper >limit to the precision of her quantities. Our use of unlimited digits is >at best propagating irrelevant information. as long as we bobbit the digits of the end result appropriate to the digits of the raw materials of the calculation, we're safe. > Pi, in its rigorous mathematical >sense, has no physical correlate. i can't help it: neither does 2, since every object in nature is unique. it's only by limiting our conceptual level of resolution (abstracting out of nature) that we can count 2 sheep. >We may have other semantic difficulties here: rational does not mean >whole number in any way. i know what rationals are. fractions or terminating decimals - which are identical concepts. they involve whole numbers. >You do need to deal with lots of numbers after the >decimal point to be a design scientist -- but with the philosophical >caveat that nature is not trying to approach some unlimited digits ideal. i'd venture as far as to say that nature is also not trying to approach our static rational number system, or even whole numbers. it's presumptious to limit her to that! all in nature is unique (at least we can't prove two things to be identical), and dynamic. she don't dig numbers at all! >Bucky was an advocate of starting from experience. If you haven't >experienced a point of no dimensions (e.g. the chalk bit has dimension), >then maybe you don't need a mathematics that defines points as >dimensionless. Lets just go with the easier proposition: points may >be small and pointy, but they don't have to be dimensionless to be useful. >And planes don't have to be "infinitely thin" -- really really thin is plenty >good enough. And so on... okay. let's see some useful calculations that make use of tetrahedral sizeless points or tet-of-negligible-height planes. thinking of them that way is perhaps only a distraction. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 12:38:18 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: IVM spheres radius X from O In <199412312349.AA25907@xs1.xs4all.nl> Kirby Urner writes: >Kevin: >>Not sure what is so difficult about this. Each of the layers are just >>VE's, right? So isn't the problem just to determine how many points of >>intersection a VE has with a sphere centered at the same point? >It's more interesting I think. The IVM spheres at radius X form a >common center are in several VE shells. We will have one VE with >12 corners on the sphere, but other, larger VE's will also have points >in common with our large sphere. The idea is to illuminate all >the golf balls in a closest packing that are distance X from an origin, >regardless of what VE shell they're in. You won't always get the same >pattern illuminated, depending on the radius. are we talking about distance X exactly or between X and X+dX? there's a big difference! i'd love to read about the results of this investigation. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 12:48:29 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: In <199412310514.AA24024@xs1.xs4all.nl> Edward H Campbell writes: > a) An isotropic vector matrix can be made with tetrahelixes as >the trajectories and icosahedrons as the crossings--traffic patterns. how can that work? the symmetries of icosahedra don't jive with those of the IVM or VE. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Jan 1995 13:08:43 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Re Earth's space is curved/Coordinate System In <199412281812.AA27974@xs1.xs4all.nl> Russell Chu writes: >By 4 interpenetrating IVM matrices I mean the original nucleated VE plus the >Pos Tet entered matrix, the Neg Tet centered matrix and the Octa centered >matrix. i'm afraid i can't understand this description. is there another way to describe it so that i might be able to get it through my thick head. >There is still a lot of work and a lot of thinking to be done on the >coordinate system. I am very interested in working with others to develop >this system so that it would be usable to everyone. We could start by >putting the matrix on screen so that it becomes visible to people. i'm working on another coordinate system - trying to define a space that can be filled entirely with tetrahedra. suppose you take a VE and bend its space so that the outer layer can triangulate (become an icosa) while the nucleus remains. it would appear, from an inner point of view, like looking at a matrix with a funny lens (or one of those rear-view mirrors that says "objects appear closer than they really are"). this is not a great distortion of "flat" space. suppose that the four vectors from the center of a tet to its vertexes *are* the four dimensions of spacetime, and that an event in the future is represented by a tet, while past events are inside-out tets. the "warping" of space that would be required to make it fillable with only tetrahedra would represent the reality that distant events must be seen as past events - relativity. things appear later than they are depending on how distant they are from the observer. i've got to put pen to paper and figure out an appropriate mapping. any ideas? -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 01:19:54 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu A number of my questions have not been answered in this exchange,I just want to write this to make sure that the thread hasn't been lost. As I see it a number of items need to be addressed: 1) Did Buckminster Fuller advocate some form of a Global Decision Making Body? I believe that he did. He made some statements about this in his theories of Global Democracy. He had some theory that peoples reaction to major news events could be radar imaged to show whether or not people approved of... the Government. He also had some theory about creating a wrist watch style voting machine. Now if this is true then somebody is definitely going to be monitoring these electronic transactions. Presumably a government. And his theory seems to say that this is going to be a global activity, which imputes Global Government. This is going to give rise to all of the problems that I have presented. We're going to have to deal with: 1) a power structure that is shaped like a pyramid. lots of people on the bottom (so lets assume that they all have shelter, food, edu, etc.), but they are still on the bottom, and relatively few at the top. The top of the pyramid is the Global Gov. (United Nations Global Decision Making Body, if you will). Above the pyramid is going to be some form of supreme power, Law--which is backed by the power to take human life. In all of this it is the ultimate power of Law which must be preserved at all costs, so that it can continue in perpetuity--all of the people in the pyramid, even to the top, are ultimately expendable--they will infact die of natural causes long before the the entity that stands above the pyramid will pass from the Earth. 2) Second problem: since this electronic democracy is contingent on the free flow of information we're going to have to deal with the manipulation of thought by means of words--i.e., propaganda--linguistic power structures. 3) Third problem: we're going to have to deal with the problem of enslavement to capital. Fuller believed that currency was going to become energy credits. There still is the problem of access which can be denied. 4) There is the problem of ideology which says that there is great opposition to Fuller's proposals in which case the GG will need to employ the above three steps in order to preserve itself. Question: To what extent do we ascribe to the solution presented in #4 Ted ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 01:39:19 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange/Appendum X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu "To speak of (x) is to impute the existence of (x)." --Parmenedies ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 05:39:21 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: Stewart Brand's Criticism X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Kirby Urner" at Dec 31, 94 03:23:12 pm Kirby Urner writes: > ... Domes have been used to cover oil tanks etc., > and are no-doubt rain proof. It's when you start cutting pieces of plywood > and try to build a traditional house with a dome shape that you get into > trouble. But this was never Fuller's vision. As a general proposition, I'd > say, if wood is the primary construction material, it isn't a Fuller dome, > regardless of whether it's geodesic.... > > To your specific question: have the dome kit companies worked out some of > the bugs Brand talks about?, I don't have a specific answer. Fuller said the 1945 Dymaxion Deployment Unit required the development of metallic alloys of sufficient strength/weight to make the design deployable as an air-deliverable dwelling unit, which did not occur until 1945.. Similarly, we need a mass production housing industry, using the machine tolerances of the auto industry in order to make geodesic buildings feasible. I agree with you that shingled, plywood structures are not appropriate for such structures (plywood sheets overlapping have the single advantage of being easily manufactured and widely available). If automobiles were made by hand or were made of wood or constructed from kits, not only would the automobiles fall apart and be non-functional, but they would leak every time it rained. I agree with you. No matter how much Stewart Brand would like geodesics to be a crafts movement or a cottage industry (pardon the pun), Fuller's intention was two-fold: 1) To model his mathematics and show practical applications of the economies of nature and design science, 2) To show how our full technological capabilities are NOT being applied to housing design, despite the existence of tens of thousands of so-called architects practicing their trade. Neither the space shuttle nor a Boeing 747 leak when it rains ... obviously because they use appropriate materials and an appropriate level of manufacturing tolerances (100,000th of an inch). Brand is doing the equivalent of criticizing the strength of geodesic structures on the basis of a model made of pipe cleaners. --Kiyoshi Kuromiya ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 09:55:22 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: IVM spheres radius X from O X-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl At 12:38 PM 1/1/95 +0100, Gerald de Jong wrote: >In <199412312349.AA25907@xs1.xs4all.nl> Kirby Urner writes: >>The idea is to illuminate all >>the golf balls in a closest packing that are distance X from an origin, >>regardless of what VE shell they're in. You won't always get the same >>pattern illuminated, depending on the radius. > >are we talking about distance X exactly or between X and X+dX? there's >a big difference! > >i'd love to read about the results of this investigation. > We're talking about distance X exactly, from IVM sphere origin to some central sphere origin. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: the point is this: if you're raw materials are a bunch of numbers >to, say, 12 digits accuracy (outrageous, but anyway) and you do some >serious calculations with them, it is sensible to do the calculations >using sixty-some digits (or whatever) and be completely aware of the >introduction of any errors *and* of the number of digits accuracy of >your results. if you do the same calculations based on rational 12-digit >numbers, you can easily end up with a 4259-digit denominator after a >while - which you have to round off in the end anyway. If you only have 6 digits of significance to begin with, then you need to round off at about 6 digits as you go, not fool yourself into thinking that after multiplying two numbers with 6 significant figures you suddenly have more significance, that you have the option of rounding to 10 digits later, thereby gaining 10 digits of accuracy. Science has developed scientific notation partly to separate the number of significant digits from the placement of the decimal points. We say 1.2343 x 10^-5, showing we have 4 significant places after the decimal. > but still, unless *everything* (including movement, for example) is proven >to be discontinuous - nowhere is there "flow"! - you're shooting yourself in >the foot to stick to>a level of resolution involving whole numbers. No one is suggesting using only whole numbers. You seem to go back and forth between "rational" and "whole", even while you say you know the difference (and I'm sure you do). >only stare in starry-eyed wonder at the behavior of a flywheel, because >with your rational accounting you can't figure out the first thing! >somebody who's put on his smoky glasses and sees the situation in terms >of smooth circles and infinitessimal tangents can "calculate rings >around you", because he's chosen an appropriate level of resolution. His appropriate level of resolutions is *still* using rational numbers. >> Pi, in its rigorous mathematical >>sense, has no physical correlate. > >i can't help it: neither does 2, since every object in nature is unique. >it's only by limiting our conceptual level of resolution (abstracting >out of nature) that we can count 2 sheep. Again, I don't see what uniqueness has to do with anything. You can have two things that are different and still count them as two. >>We may have other semantic difficulties here: rational does not mean >>whole number in any way. >i'd venture as far as to say that nature is also not trying to approach >our static rational number system, or even whole numbers. it's presumptious >to limit her to that! all in nature is unique (at least we can't prove >two things to be identical), and dynamic. she don't dig numbers at all! Uniqueness again. Why? >>Bucky was an advocate of starting from experience. If you haven't >>experienced a point of no dimensions (e.g. the chalk bit has dimension), >>then maybe you don't need a mathematics that defines points as >>dimensionless. Lets just go with the easier proposition: points may >>be small and pointy, but they don't have to be dimensionless to be useful. >>And planes don't have to be "infinitely thin" -- really really thin is plenty >>good enough. And so on... > >okay. let's see some useful calculations that make use of tetrahedral >sizeless points or tet-of-negligible-height planes. thinking of them >that way is perhaps only a distraction. I think it's a distraction to think of points as "dimensionless" and planes as "infinitely thin." I mentally relax when I don't have to posit entities I've never experienced. I used to teach high school and elementary school mathematics. I'd show this geometry film that would show a dot and say "this is a representation of a point." Then the narrator would go on to say "no one has ever seen a real point, and no one ever will." What garbage! Who needs it? I say all the useful calculations we already have regarding points and planes (calculations putting shuttles in orbit, domes over stadiums, skyscrapers along the sky line) do not require "non-dimensional points" and "inifinitely thin planes" --- those are philosophical underpinnings we can just as well do without, and still keep all the calculations. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: >Now if this is true then somebody is definitely going to be monitoring >these electronic transactions. Presumably a government. And his theory >seems to say that this is going to be a global activity, which imputes >Global Government. > >This is going to give rise to all of the problems that I have presented. >We're going to have to deal with: > > 1) a power structure that is shaped like a pyramid. lots of >people on the bottom (so lets assume that they all have shelter, food, >edu, etc.), but they are still on the bottom, and relatively few at the >top. This is how it is now, without any formally declared "global government." Certainly it wouldn't take an implementation of Fuller's hopes to create this situation. > 2) Second problem: since this electronic democracy is contingent >on the free flow of information we're going to have to deal with the >manipulation of thought by means of words--i.e., propaganda--linguistic >power structures. Already a problem, which we're dealing with now. > 3) Third problem: we're going to have to deal with the problem of >enslavement to capital. Fuller believed that currency was going to >become energy credits. There still is the problem of access which can be >denied. We're looking for solutions. The problem you mention is a problem we face today, not something down the road. > 4) There is the problem of ideology which says that there is >great opposition to Fuller's proposals in which case the GG will need to >employ the above three steps in order to preserve itself. > I think the burden is on you to prove that a global government is necessary to accomplish what Fuller wanted to have happen for humanity. I don't believe Fuller envisioned the global government you do, and I find I can imagine many credible scenarios wherein much of what Fuller hoped would come to pass does, without any global government rearing its ugly head. Hey, I'm on your side: I don't want any global government or mega-UN either. But the global energy grid might be helpful: I'm more concerned about the inefficiency of long transmission lines -- they still leak a lot of energy away as heat and so long as that is the case, a global grid may not make any economic sense. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Edward H Campbell wrote: > A number of my questions have not been answered in this exchange,I just > want to write this to make sure that the thread hasn't been lost. > > As I see it a number of items need to be addressed: > > 1) Did Buckminster Fuller advocate some form of a Global Decision Making > Body? I believe that he did. He made some statements about this in his > theories of Global Democracy. He had some theory that peoples reaction > to major news events could be radar imaged to show whether or not people > approved of... the Government. He also had some theory about creating a > wrist watch style voting machine. > > Now if this is true then somebody is definitely going to be monitoring > these electronic transactions. Presumably a government. And his theory > seems to say that this is going to be a global activity, which imputes > Global Government. > > This is going to give rise to all of the problems that I have presented. > We're going to have to deal with: > > 1) a power structure that is shaped like a pyramid. lots of > people on the bottom (so lets assume that they all have shelter, food, > edu, etc.), but they are still on the bottom, and relatively few at the > top. The top of the pyramid is the Global Gov. (United Nations Global > Decision Making Body, if you will). Above the pyramid is going to be > some form of supreme power, Law--which is backed by the power to take > human life. In all of this it is the ultimate power of Law which must be > preserved at all costs, so that it can continue in perpetuity--all of the > people in the pyramid, even to the top, are ultimately expendable--they > will infact die of natural causes long before the the entity that stands > above the pyramid will pass from the Earth. > > > 2) Second problem: since this electronic democracy is contingent > on the free flow of information we're going to have to deal with the > manipulation of thought by means of words--i.e., propaganda--linguistic > power structures. > > 3) Third problem: we're going to have to deal with the problem of > enslavement to capital. Fuller believed that currency was going to > become energy credits. There still is the problem of access which can be > denied. > > 4) There is the problem of ideology which says that there is > great opposition to Fuller's proposals in which case the GG will need to > employ the above three steps in order to preserve itself. > > > Question: To what extent do we ascribe to the solution presented in #4 > > > Ted > "To speak of (x) is to impute the existence of (x)." --Parmenides Kirby-- I'm going to have to repost this message as a response to your rebuttal. I don't think that this puzzle can be solved by "cut & paste" responses. You need to look at the problem as a whole, to separate the particulars from the generalizations. What I'm saying, and you seemed to agree with, is that the scenario I've described is already happen on the Nation-State level. I don't see how the fact that something eternal and all powerful standing above society will change in the least just because the government goes global. I'm asserting that Global Government is already coming into being and that Fuller's ideas as well as everyone on this planet, even the opposition--though they function on it differently, are aiding in the process. You're only response seems to be that Fuller never intended the world to have a "Global Decision Making Body." Which he most certainly did. In any event the Global Government is coming into being and I want to know whether or not you or Fuller have a solution to this problem. Even if Global Government never comes into being, you'll never solve this problem on the local level whithout doing away with centralized power structures like power plants. You need to remember, I didn't create this problem; it is, as I said, a problem which has haunted Humanity throught the ages. Plato tried to solve it with Facism. Fuller didn't address, didn't solve it, because he couldn't solve it. He could only dodge it with phantasms and vagueries. This can only show that there are limits to reason. Fuller acted as if he had some sort of "second sight" which allowed him to see beyond "the veil" and made asinine decrees "nature isn't using pi" How the hell would he know? --Ted ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 14:29:25 MDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ken G. Brown" Organization: BEST Online Subject: Re: Stewart Brand's Criticism >It certainly seems based on Brand's fairly limited text that he >is talking about things done in the 70s more than the relatively >long-established companies, such as Natural Spaces. This is sad, >as he is a powerful voice and his statements, if not pertaining >to domes-with-the-bugs-worked-out are bound to be misleading >and detrimental. Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca writes: >Perhaps this group should prepare a letter to send Mr. Brand.< I can't help but think that Stewart Brand might just be trying to shake up the dome-believers into solving in elegant ways some of the real problems that have been experienced in the past. I too was sad when I read his quite negative words re: domes as I have been a believer for years. However, I am still a believer and I for one think that any time spent towards a rebuttal to Brand should take the form of redoubled efforts to make domes successful dwelling machines. To this end I believe that: 1. Placing the insulation and weather break on the outside of the structure will result in minimized thermal stress which no doubt has been a large contributor to the leak problems. 2. Utilizing tensegrity geometry with connected curved struts may allow for easier assembly with more acceptance to manufacturing tolerances. To this end I am working on a 3-D CAD design of such a structure for the purposes of building as my home. I have also done the drawing of tangent circles on the surface of a sphere such that it would be relatively easy to do the calculations for some sort of Fly's Eye structure. I'm not working toward this at the moment since it seems a bit beyond my resources at this time. In the long run, this type of structure may lend itself best for mass production. -Ken- (kbrown@atc.edmonton.ab.ca) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 15:29:34 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: IVM/Tetrahelix/de Jong X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu On Sun, 1 Jan 1995, Gerald de Jong wrote: > In <199412310514.AA24024@xs1.xs4all.nl> Edward H Campbell > writes: > > > a) An isotropic vector matrix can be made with tetrahelixes as > >the trajectories and icosahedrons as the crossings--traffic patterns. > > how can that work? the symmetries of icosahedra don't jive with those > of the IVM or VE. > > > -- > gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" > Yes, I believe they do. Although, I haven't had the opportunity to preform the experiment myself, there was a guy from Japan at the Buckminster Fuller Institute a few years ago who had the IVM all mapped out on his computer with icohedrons as the vertices, but not tetrahelixes as the edges. This got the gears turning in my head, since I was actively engaged in writing "The Tetrahelix in Intertransformability Models" at that time. Its true that the icosahedron has twenty sides and you only need twelve to make the isotropic vector matrix, but the way I saw it, by covering only twelve of the twenty sides with an end of a tetrahelix it would prevent the helixes from "binding up"--I had had that problem before when I tried to make an IVM out of Tetrahelixes with each helix edge to edge with another one. Still I think that twelve tetrahelixes radiating from an icosahedron will have the angles of a nucleus cubo-octahedon. I'm not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, I just look at this stuff the way an artist would. The other theory about octahelixes and cubo-octahelixes, I've proven myself. In fact, i've left some representatives of them at the BFI. I regard the whole tetrahelix thing as a n art project. No practical use what so ever. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 15:41:40 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Angle is Everything On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Kirby Urner wrote: > No one is suggesting using only whole numbers. You seem to go back > and forth between "rational" and "whole", even while you say you know > the difference (and I'm sure you do). > I do believe that I've heard Bucky say that the Universe could be explained "in whole rational numbers" many times. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 16:36:48 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Kirby Urner wrote: > At 01:19 AM 1/2/95 -0700, Edward H Campbell wrote: > >A number of my questions have not been answered in this exchange,I just > >want to write this to make sure that the thread hasn't been lost. > > > >As I see it a number of items need to be addressed: > > > >1) Did Buckminster Fuller advocate some form of a Global Decision Making > >Body? I believe that he did. He made some statements about this in his > >theories of Global Democracy. He had some theory that peoples reaction > >to major news events could be radar imaged to show whether or not people > >approved of... the Government. He also had some theory about creating a > >wrist watch style voting machine. > > Despite the artifact he wanted to see outside the UN building in NYC, the > textual evidence suggests, strongly, that Fuller did not envision global > government under UN auspices (cite: desovereignization, Grunch of Giants). That only shows that Fuller repeditively contradicted himself. He could have chosen any artifact and put it anywhere, but he felt that the UN would be the BEST place. Why? > > I see you setting up a straw man, global government, and proceeding to > knock it down, presuming all along that global government is what Fuller > was into. I'm not setting it up and knocking it down, I'm saying the motions of the culture are creating it and it can't be knocked down. > in a global university. Each city is a campus. You do curriculum work and > you get credits towards stuff you want and/or need. No one body controls > either the curriculum or the flow of credits. Lots of operating systems, You're precessing the argument. You haven't delt with it in the least in the TERMS with which it was ststed. I never used the term "one body" You're trying to tell me that in the world we live in grades and credits aren't regulated? What happens when someone submits plagerized work? I think they get in trouble. Does that engage the Law? You haven't used the word 'law' once. > most computer-based, are set up around the world, and people have a > large degree of latitude as to which programs they want to enroll in. > Lots of bickering, disagreement, hostility, angry debate, continues to > characterize the global dialog. In the meantime, lots of new infrastructure > is put in place, an extrapolation of a process that has been going on for > a long time while humans fought with one another (it doesn't take > a totally happy, calm world to foment infrastructure integration). I think we're on to some thing here when you say "infrastucture" there doesn't need to be a regulatory body to manage an infrastructure? Some how I believe you're imaging a world where there aren't any people. Or a government without people, something like that. Your going to need everyone to be happy in order to make the world work for everyone. What are you planning to do with the people who don't cooperate? > > I can envision a world with a globally integrated energy distribution grid, > communications system etc, that is ethnically diverse, linguistically > diverse, full of differing views and movements, schools of thought, > militant mobs, political camps. I can see such a world developing > systems for feeding more people, housing and clothing them, despite > their hate for one another. I can see all this happening without some > giant big brother Law-backed global government imposing its will on > the global population. We haven't had one yet, and have achieved a > remarkable degree of global integration -- we won't need one in the > future, ever. I don't see this as anarchy either. The global university > of partially overlapping curricula and city-campuses, with students > moving about the globe freely, enrolling in this program and that, > getting work done, implementing in practice what design science courses > show might be done in theory (i.e. feeding the world's billions), is > not anarchic, any more than today's world is completely without order. > And I'm not saying my "global university" metaphor will be forced > down people's throats as the one and only picture of what's going on. > > The imaging of demographic responses using some visual display is too > nebulous to deduce the context -- whether these responses drive legislation, > are referenda on some global authority or whatever. Like you said, you're "imagining" things. It's simulation--a hyperreal. Did Fuller or did he not say that in the "future" we could somehow image peoples responses to news events with satalites? You don't see the existence of the equipment itself is directly contigent on a group of individuals getting together to produce and operate it, would that be an institution? And once the information is obtained, isn't something going to be done with it? Would that be a Decision Making Body? How clear do I have to make this? > > > > >Now if this is true then somebody is definitely going to be monitoring > >these electronic transactions. Presumably a government. And his theory > >seems to say that this is going to be a global activity, which imputes > >Global Government. > > > >This is going to give rise to all of the problems that I have presented. > >We're going to have to deal with: > > > > 1) a power structure that is shaped like a pyramid. lots of > >people on the bottom (so lets assume that they all have shelter, food, > >edu, etc.), but they are still on the bottom, and relatively few at the > >top. > > This is how it is now, without any formally declared "global government." > Certainly it wouldn't take an implementation of Fuller's hopes to create > this situation. Right. > > > 2) Second problem: since this electronic democracy is contingent > >on the free flow of information we're going to have to deal with the > >manipulation of thought by means of words--i.e., propaganda--linguistic > >power structures. > > Already a problem, which we're dealing with now. Its happening now! How are you dealing with it? > > > 3) Third problem: we're going to have to deal with the problem of > >enslavement to capital. Fuller believed that currency was going to > >become energy credits. There still is the problem of access which can be > >denied. > > We're looking for solutions. The problem you mention is a problem > we face today, not something down the road. No kidding we're facing it today. What makes you think we won't be facing it down the road? Have you found a solution or something? If you have a solution I'd like to hear it, that's why I'm poisting the question. > > > 4) There is the problem of ideology which says that there is > >great opposition to Fuller's proposals in which case the GG will need to > >employ the above three steps in order to preserve itself. > > > > I think the burden is on you to prove that a global government is > necessary to accomplish what Fuller wanted to have happen for humanity. > I don't believe Fuller envisioned the global government you do, and > I find I can imagine many credible scenarios wherein much of what > Fuller hoped would come to pass does, without any global government > rearing its ugly head. Hey, I'm on your side: I don't want any global > government or mega-UN either. But the global energy grid might > be helpful: I'm more concerned about the inefficiency of long > transmission lines -- they still leak a lot of energy away as heat and so > long as that is the case, a global grid may not make any economic > sense. > No. I think the budern is on you to show that Buckminster Fuller's ideas are correct. It you who need to show that the world can work for everyone and how it can be done, since you're the one who is propounding it. Don't play games with this stuff. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 00:04:37 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Matt Harris Organization: North Bay Network's news posting service - not responsible for content Subject: Questions Regarding Domes To the bit.listserv.geodesic folks: A couple of years ago, while in high school and living at home, I came across a copy of Whole Earth's _Domebook_2_ on my dad's bookshelf. I opened it up and was immediately intrigued with the idea of building and living in one of these beautiful structures. That idea (and the book ;) ) has stuck with me over the past few years, and now I am inspired to take some sort of action to look into the feasibility of such a project. It looks as though I have found a place online where people are knowledgeable enough about this subject to help me out. Perhaps someone can answer these questions I have off the bat, to let me know if I should even consider this endeavor: How has the domebuilding scene changed in the last 20 or so years (i.e. since _Domebook_2_)? Are there current or more recent publications regarding domebuilding? Do people still do it? Are there materials or designs better suited to building dwelling domes than those discussed in _Domebook_2_? By the recent quote of Stuart Brand, it seems as though the problems that plagued the 1970's domebuilder have not been solved. Is this true? If geodesic domes make such efficient housing, why has the propagation of them that was seemingly prophesied in the 70's not happened? (As I born in 1975, I have no first hand knowledge of events in that era, so please pardon me if I misinterpret what evidence I do have.) Thank you in advance for your help, and thank you for reading this. If you can help me by answering some questions, or if you have domebuilding experience or ideas that you wish to share, you can email me at hww@ocf.berkeley.edu. Happy new year! Joshua Thayer (on a friend's account, my Berkeley account does not have this newsgroup) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 18:21:28 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Stewart Brand's Criticism >From kbrown@MAUGHAM.ATC.EDMONTON.AB.CA Mon Jan 2 17:56:29 CST 1995 >>It certainly seems based on Brand's fairly limited text that he >>is talking about things done in the 70s more than the relatively >>long-established companies, such as Natural Spaces. This is sad, >>as he is a powerful voice and his statements, if not pertaining >>to domes-with-the-bugs-worked-out are bound to be misleading >>and detrimental. >Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca >writes: [Actually, Rob wrote this.] >>Perhaps this group should prepare a letter to send Mr. Brand.< >I can't help but think that Stewart Brand might just be trying to shake up >the dome-believers into solving in elegant ways some of the real problems >that have been experienced in the past. I too was sad when I read his quite >negative words re: domes as I have been a believer for years. However, I am >still a believer and I for one think that any time spent towards a rebuttal >to Brand should take the form of redoubled efforts to make domes successful >dwelling machines. To this end I believe that: >1. Placing the insulation and weather break on the outside of the structure >will result in minimized thermal stress which no doubt has been a large >contributor to the leak problems. >2. Utilizing tensegrity geometry with connected curved struts may allow for >easier assembly with more acceptance to manufacturing tolerances. To this >end I am working on a 3-D CAD design of such a structure for the purposes >of building as my home. [stuff deleted] > -Ken- (kbrown@atc.edmonton.ab.ca) I am very interested in any progress you make in your design. However, I doubt Stewart Brand is so subtle as to "shake up the dome-believers..." I think he is just writing from a limited, but important point of view, which Kiyoshi Kuromiya has identified--- Brand is very pro-individual-effort and anti-mass-manufacturing. And I am too. I think geodesic domes have a lot to offer, and I believe that space-age materials may be essential. I also believe that if we wait for someone to see that they can make a buck opening a space-age factory to make housing, we'll see domes on Mars before we see them on Earth in the numbers they deserve. I am therefore very sympathetic to Ken Brown's brave and active approach: Let's figure out how to do it ourselves. If that means figuring out how people of limited means like myself can get close tolerances and fiber-reinforced lightweight plastic concrete, well, let's just figure it out. In fact, based on my own work and research (incorporating Brand's criticism), I can offer an outline that is easily within the reach of good programmers (myself included, I am actively pursuing this): 0) We need to break away from slavish devotion to the spherical form. I know full well that it the strongest structure, and that people understand how to generate a dome that way. But (following Hugh Kenner's lead) we can use ellipses, or more generally any surface we want. The software to do this is no big deal, I have it half-way working now. And, since FElt analyzes any dome, it is easy to take a non-spherical structure and determine if how strong the pieces need to be to get a certain strength. 1) We need to recognize that doors and windows are important parts of buildings-- and that means we need domes that have rectangular, vertical ports elegantly incorporated into the design. This is not hard, and it means I can buy windows at Builder's Square rather than having to get triangular skylights from some particular manufacturer that has a monopoly. 2) Following Fuller, the best technology for roofing available now (that can be used by people with my kind of money) is "raised seam metal roofing" (you've probably seen it on malls and a few houses.) Yet none of the dome companies I know of (and I keep close watch) offer that kind of metal roofing. 3) Following Brand, we need adaptable buildings. For one thing, I plan to live in one, and I won't have the money when I begin to build it for my family 15 years from now. But, this is easily accomplished if we give up the notion that we have to come as close to a sphere as we can. 4) Finally, we need to figure out how to build a dome that has eaves. The notion that the wall and the roof should not be distinguishable seems mistaken to me. Let's build geodesic roofs on vertical walls that are also omnitriangulated. If anyone disagrees or agrees with these notions, don't hesitate to reply here or to me personally. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 17:03:09 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange >> Despite the artifact he wanted to see outside the UN building in NYC, the >> textual evidence suggests, strongly, that Fuller did not envision global >> government under UN auspices (cite: desovereignization, Grunch of Giants). > >That only shows that Fuller repeditively contradicted himself. He could >have chosen any artifact and put it anywhere, but he felt that the UN >would be the BEST place. Why? > Not a contradiction. One can see the UN as a useful bridge, a temporary arrangement of entities, on the way to something else. Just because I don't think the UN will be around forever doesn't mean I don't want it to have a geoscope to look at in New York today. >> in a global university. Each city is a campus. You do curriculum work and >> you get credits towards stuff you want and/or need. No one body controls >> either the curriculum or the flow of credits. Lots of operating systems, > >You're trying to tell me that in the world we live in grades and credits >aren't regulated? What happens when someone submits plagerized work? I >think they get in trouble. Does that engage the Law? You haven't used >the word 'law' once. So they get in trouble. So what? In the future, there will be rules, there will be regulations, laws, games, illegal moves, consequences, punishments, rewards, criminal acts. I don't see one all-governing game though. People interested in implementing Fuller's ideas don't sit down with a blank sheet of paper and say "hmmm, lets dream up a new set of laws with the authority of Law behind them." The strategy is to place artifacts into the public domain, and see if they get adopted because they're useful. People Intel and Apple Computer are in this same line of work. >> most computer-based, are set up around the world, and people have a >> large degree of latitude as to which programs they want to enroll in. >> Lots of bickering, disagreement, hostility, angry debate, continues to >> characterize the global dialog. >I think we're on to some thing here when you say "infrastucture" there >doesn't need to be a regulatory body to manage an infrastructure? Many bodies, partially overlapping. We have lots and lots of infrastructure today and no single body in charge. If your point is that assets need to be managed, protected against terrorists, then yes, I agree. If your point is that all assets need to be managed by one Giant Government, then I say I don't see it that way. You seem to imply that Fullerites are all for Global Government and then put the question "how do you intend to govern?" My response (I can't speak for other Fuller fans) is I am *not* all for Global Government and don't see that we need one. When it comes to managing human affairs, more local bodies, with lots of local participation, are the way to go. Big distant bureaucracies ain't so good -- even the corporate bureaucracies are leaning this to some degree. But that doesn't mean we can't cooporate enough to create global utilities (we already have, and do). >Some how I believe you're imaging a world where there aren't any people. Or a >government without people, something like that. Your going to need >everyone to be happy in order to make the world work for everyone. What >are you planning to do with the people who don't cooperate? I wouldn't need everyone to be happy for my definition of the world working for everyone to be satisfied. If people are not forcefully deprived of life support, and have opportunities to pursue happiness, that's enough for me. Some spiritual conditions are beyond helping with the provision of infrastructure. A kid can be miserable in Disney World, even after multi-billions have been spent to make a "Magic Kingdom." Your ultimate happiness is your problem -- I'd just like to make sure you don't have to starve or get thrown away because you aren't "employable." >> I can envision a world with a globally integrated energy distribution grid, >> communications system etc, that is ethnically diverse, linguistically >> diverse, full of differing views and movements, schools of thought, >> militant mobs, political camps. I can see such a world developing >> systems for feeding more people, housing and clothing them, despite >> their hate for one another. I can see all this happening without some >> giant big brother Law-backed global government imposing its will on >> the global population. >Like you said, you're "imagining" things. It's simulation--a hyperreal. >Did Fuller or did he not say that in the "future" we could somehow image >peoples responses to news events with satalites? You don't see the >existence of the equipment itself is directly contigent on a group of >individuals getting together to produce and operate it, would that be an >institution? And once the information is obtained, isn't something going >to be done with it? Would that be a Decision Making Body? How clear do >I have to make this? Lets suppose a satellite tuned to frequencies x,y and z could pick up the general satisfaction level of humans in a particular area. If people were miserable, a bluish color would appear on the screen. Very contented people would generate a yellowish cast. Suppose we had something like a weather report, which showed the world and the colorations. Ugly suffering in Bosnia. Lots of yellow pockets scattered about, not just in "industrialized" areas either. We can go on and add colors keyed to their meanings and write a lot of science fiction to go with it. In some science fiction, the population response map is secret and used by a Decision Making Body to oppress. In other science fiction, the map is public, available at any library or school at the touch of a button, frequently shown on the evening news. No Decision Making Body as such uses the information, but the feedback loop created by billions of humans watching their own emotional state, like a face in the mirror, definitely has many overt and subtle sociopolitical effects. The science fiction can be given a sinister or a benign spin. Fuller had a benign streak a mile wide, so probably the sinister distopian version didn't haunt him as it does you. In any case, the possible satellite-fed loop of demographic information did not occupy a central part of his proposals. He generatated a lot of visions, as any good visionary does. If such a technology is feasible, no one group will necessarily implement it for a single purpose. We're talking about a high tech, real time version of opinion polling in a way. We already have zillions of polling agencies, some public, some privately commissioned. No one Decision Making Body of global scope is behind all the polling that goes on. Why does putting satellites into the picture change this fact? >No kidding we're facing it today. What makes you think we won't be >facing it down the road? Have you found a solution or something? If you >have a solution I'd like to hear it, that's why I'm poisting the question. No I don't think we won't be facing it down the road. I think we can provide better infrastructure and take care of more people at a higher living standard *without* solving all the problems of domination, control etc. That will continue to be a struggle. People will fight for their freedoms, rights, dignity, against others who wish to dominate, suppress, curtail, exploit. That's a story without end, as far as humanity is concerned. That doesn't mean we can't get on with the business of fighting for those freedoms and rights. Ultimate victory is not in my sights, but the goals along the way are worth attaining nonetheless. >I think the budern is on you to show that Buckminster Fuller's ideas >are correct. It you who need to show that the world can work for >everyone and how it can be done, since you're the one who is propounding it. > >Don't play games with this stuff. > >Ted I've said a lot about it. Develop the Hollywood cast of thousands multi-million box office extravaganza into a new type of "scenario production" where casts of world game players (global U students by another metaphor) star in real world multimedia scenarios about making the world work. Brand name highlighting, popular in modern films, would continue, attaching Grunch logos to prototypes used in our films. For example, Boeing or AirBus might have a dwelling machine in one episode, with the company brand prominently displayed. Commericalization? Yes. The design science revolution will be a boost to world trade. I'm looking at the supranational/infotainment nexus for good "making the world work" programming, with lots of contemporary sound track by local artists (different tastes for different demographics, as per usual). I'm not looking to the UN or Clinton Administration particularly. If Fuller's vision is to make headway, it'll have to be managed as scenarios production, with these "true life" cop shows being a kind of prototype (in that we'll be wanting our prototype dwelling machines, airlifted to famine sites or earthquake rescue zones, to be working, real devices, not "props" with no reality behind them). I've gone on at length in this vein in earlier posts, accessible via LISTSERV commands if you're interested. Haven't tried to read your long posts yet. Please repost in straight ASCII. Your essay seems to be riddled with wordproccessor codes, which email can't handle. Any wordprocessor should be able to save in ASCII text. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Questions Regarding Domes I'll answer your questions; but I hope others will as well. [stuff deleted] > Perhaps someone can answer these questions I have off the bat, to let >me know if I should even consider this endeavor: How has the >domebuilding scene changed in the last 20 or so years (i.e. since >_Domebook_2_)? Are there current or more recent publications regarding >domebuilding? Do people still do it? Are there materials or designs >better suited to building dwelling domes than those discussed in >_Domebook_2_? By the recent quote of Stuart Brand, it seems as though [btw, it's Stewart, not Stuart.] The current and recent publications can be found the FAQ (frequently asked questions) document for this group. They include a book by Hugh Kenner that tells you how to design a dome--at least the "superstructure" of one. One thing that has gone on is that at least 8 companies are still actively building domes, a lot of them in kit form. Based on their catalogs (which unfortunately, each of them charges about $15 for) they have pretty sophisticated micro-engineering. The two basic techiniques are hub-and-strut and triangular panels; the companies that make each rag on the others approach. At least five of these companies claim they sell over 100 domes a year. My estimate is that there are about 1000 domes a year sold, but that, like the rest of the housing market, fluctuates with interest rates. I guess that the number of domes sold on the West Coast greatly outnumbers all others. There are quite a few here in Texas, but I bet about 10 times as many (12,000?) in California and Oregon. >the problems that plagued the 1970's domebuilder have not been solved. >Is this true? If geodesic domes make such efficient housing, why has the I'm guessing Brand's criticism have been half-way solved---I doubt think the domes made by these companies leak as hes says "always". Certainly, they have very carefully beveled the joints, and a lot of them, as Brand mentions, basically shingle them to the ground. Personally, shingling to the ground seems ugly and expensive to me, so Brand's criticism is partially apropos. To say that they "interiors are impossible to subdivide" however, as Brand does, is stupid. All of the dome companies (list of them are in the FAQ) sell you interior floorplans. It may be true that it takes more work to get the sheetrock to meet nicely in your interior walls, but their are beautiful pictures in the catalogs of homes. Also, most of the homes photographed in these catalogs have a similar style--half of the circle on the ground left open to create a huge and pleasant living space, and the other half walled and sheetrocked to create private bedrooms, studies, baths etc. One problem they do have is that doors and window are sort of stuck on as an afterthought. This doesn't mean they don't look nice, but they're not really integrated into the triangular facets of the domes. >propagation of them that was seemingly prophesied in the 70's not >happened? (As I born in 1975, I have no first hand knowledge of events >in that era, so please pardon me if I misinterpret what evidence I do >have.) In my humble opinion, domes that you buy from one of these companies are more efficient than other homes---but not too much. The energy cost are lower. You can get a frame and the plywood sheathing for a 45-foot diameter dome for about $22,000, which seems pretty good for an 1,800 to 2,500 square foot home (depending on how much second floor you have), but then having a crew build a stud-house is pretty cheap if all you get is the frame and the sheating (and insulation too, some do it for you, some don't). However, the material cost don't seem very much lower to me, and the damnable fact that you pretty much HAVE to buy your windows and skylights from the particular company makes it a whole lot more expensive. However, as the many dome advocates on the group will point it, the purchasable dome is not exactly what Fuller had in mind---a tremendous potential is till untapped. > Thank you in advance for your help, and thank you for reading this. >If you can help me by answering some questions, or if you have >domebuilding experience or ideas that you wish to share, you can email me >at hww@ocf.berkeley.edu. >Happy new year! >Joshua Thayer >(on a friend's account, my Berkeley account does not have this newsgroup) Please ask more questions, if you have them. I suspect people will disagree with me to some extent. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 19:53:13 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange [ 95] Edward H Campbell X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu > On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Edward H Campbell wrote: > > > A number of my questions have not been answered in this exchange,I just > > want to write this to make sure that the thread hasn't been lost. > > > > As I see it a number of items need to be addressed: > > > > 1) Did Buckminster Fuller advocate some form of a Global Decision Making > > Body? I believe that he did. He made some statements about this in his > > theories of Global Democracy. He had some theory that peoples reaction > > to major news events could be radar imaged to show whether or not people > > approved of... the Government. He also had some theory about creating a > > wrist watch style voting machine. > > > > Now if this is true then somebody is definitely going to be monitoring > > these electronic transactions. Presumably a government. And his theory > > seems to say that this is going to be a global activity, which imputes > > Global Government. > > > > This is going to give rise to all of the problems that I have presented. > > We're going to have to deal with: > > > > 1) a power structure that is shaped like a pyramid. lots of > > people on the bottom (so lets assume that they all have shelter, food, > > edu, etc.), but they are still on the bottom, and relatively few at the > > top. The top of the pyramid is the Global Gov. (United Nations Global > > Decision Making Body, if you will). Above the pyramid is going to be > > some form of supreme power, Law--which is backed by the power to take > > human life. In all of this it is the ultimate power of Law which must be > > preserved at all costs, so that it can continue in perpetuity--all of the > > people in the pyramid, even to the top, are ultimately expendable--they > > will infact die of natural causes long before the the entity that stands > > above the pyramid will pass from the Earth. > > > > > > 2) Second problem: since this electronic democracy is contingent > > on the free flow of information we're going to have to deal with the > > manipulation of thought by means of words--i.e., propaganda--linguistic > > power structures. > > > > 3) Third problem: we're going to have to deal with the problem of > > enslavement to capital. Fuller believed that currency was going to > > become energy credits. There still is the problem of access which can be > > denied. > > > > 4) There is the problem of ideology which says that there is > > great opposition to Fuller's proposals in which case the GG will need to > > employ the above three steps in order to preserve itself. > > > > > > Question: To what extent do we ascribe to the solution presented in #4 > > > > > > Ted > > > "To speak of (x) is to impute the existence of (x)." > > --Parmenides > > Kirby-- > > I'm going to have to repost this message as a response to your rebuttal. > I don't think that this puzzle can be solved by "cut & paste" responses. > You need to look at the problem as a whole, to separate the particulars > from the generalizations. > > What I'm saying, and you seemed to agree with, is that the scenario I've > described is already happen on the Nation-State level. I don't see how > the fact that something eternal and all powerful standing above society > will change in the least just because the government goes global. > > I'm asserting that Global Government is already coming into being and > that Fuller's ideas as well as everyone on this planet, even the > opposition--though they function on it differently, are aiding in the > process. > > You're only response seems to be that Fuller never intended the world to > have a "Global Decision Making Body." Which he most certainly did. In > any event the Global Government is coming into being and I want to know > whether or not you or Fuller have a solution to this problem. Even if > Global Government never comes into being, you'll never solve this problem > on the local level whithout doing away with centralized power structures > like power plants. > > You need to remember, I didn't create this problem; it is, as I said, a > problem which has haunted Humanity throught the ages. Plato tried to > solve it with Facism. > > Fuller didn't address, didn't solve it, because he couldn't solve it. He > could only dodge it with phantasms and vagueries. This can only show that > there are limits to reason. Fuller acted as if he had some sort of > "second sight" which allowed him to see beyond "the veil" and made > asinine decrees "nature isn't using pi" How the hell would he know? > > > --Ted > Let me put this a little differently, because you're still not seeing it as comprehensively as I would like. suppose: two people sit down and make and agreement. If this is an "enforacble agreement" it is backed by something. What is it backed by? Eventaully, if authority is denied at every step of the way, it will find its power at the next level of the pyramid (local, state, federal) until it reaches the top of the pyramid. At this time in history there are many tops of the pyramid (one for each country). If the authority at the top of the pyramid is violated then the top of the pyramid will need to appeal to a higher power, something that stands above the pyramid, ideology. The ideology that stands above the pyramid will descend through the institutions within the pyramid to destroy any individual, or group of individuals, on any level. Ideology can even move the whole culture (structure) against other ideologies, i.e., war. At present there seems to be competeing ideologies, but the differences are much fewer than there used to be. The thing which stands above society here in America is consuming the thing that stands above society in other places. The opposition that exists now cannot exist in the world that you are envisioning, because there will still be wars--which means there are competeing ideologies--which use the steps I've outlined above in order to preserve themselves. Even if you overcome the competeing ideologies, i.e., your ideology consumes all others you're still operating within the same pattern. Some people are going to be born aberrations, the system will punish them (ultimately by taking their life--you probably don't condone this, but don't worry the institution will do it for you). It sounds to me as if you're actively fueling the process of Global Ideology (this is going to require an institution of some sort, so that it can preserve itself, by enforcing itself in this world--needs and institution and well as a lot of people who are willing to die for it--not hard to find.) If Fuller addressed this he did so by encouraging people to go global, see ourselves as members of "Humanity" to have all the boarders go away and so on. But, that only get rid of the National Monad, it combines Monads. The thing that stands above society is created by beliefs. Do you think that you'll be able to escape this scenario by believing in something else? (Something other than what created the society that we live in now? Or some ideology that doesn't go global?) It looks to me like the people who ardently believe in Fuller's works think that if part or all of his philosophy collapses the will be an apocalypse, I wouldn't worry too much. --------------------- Ted ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 20:16:31 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Tetrahelix article X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu In-Reply-To: On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Dystan Hays wrote: > Hi Ted, > Here's the result of my fiddling (I forgot to mention that I changed one > ASCII double-quote character to two single-begin-quote characters). It looks > as if you've already done a lot of that kind of editing, so my changes are > not really consistent with yours. (you're using the ASCII double-character > for both begin- and end- quotes, and the apostrophe for both begin- and end- > single quotes -- as is the usual ASCII custom. Before I noticed that, I > made these changes, which preserve the begin-end distinction. Sorry. The > result comes out readable enough, though.) > regards, -- John Kirk > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Tetrahelix in Intertransformability Models > by Edward Hugh Campbell > > c 1994 by Edward Hugh Campbell. > All rights reserved > > The readers of the Geodesic News Group may each down load a copy of this > text. Not For Commercial Use. > > Special Thanks to John Kirk for computer technical advice that made this > posting possible. > > To: J.P.C.,jr and J.S.C. > > Contents > I. The Deliberately Teleologic Scenario > II. Introduction to the Geometry of Thinking > III. The Volumetric Line > IV. The Nonsimultaneous Line > V. The Influence of Novent on Event > VI. The Tetrahelix Involvement Field > VII. Notes > VIII. Illustrations > > > I. The Deliberately Teleologic Scenario > > Any Scientifically advanced technology is indistinguishable > from magic by those less advanced. > -Arthur C. Clarke > > Evolution pivots on consciousness. > -R. Buckminster Fuller > > The principle of teleology is a key factor in a new paradigm of > science and arts. The principle of teleology is the cornerstone of > Synergetics 1 & 2 by R. Buckminster Fuller. Synergetics presumes that > nature uses the most economical and intelligent methods of reaching its > goals. Natures propensity for design efficiency is also known as the > principle of minimum effort in nature, or, as Buckminster Fuller calls it, > the prime law of regenerative design. > > 160.00 Generalized Design Science Exploration > 166.00 The prime eternal laws governing design science > are thus far accrued to that of cosmic law of generalized > design-science exploration is realizability and relative > magnitude of reproduciblity , which might be called the law > of regenerative design: the relative physical time > magnitude of reproducibility is proportional to the order of > magnitude of cosmic function generalizability. Because the > higher the order of synergetic function generalization, the > more embracingly and simple its statement: only the > highest orders can embracingly satisfy the plurality of low- > order interaccomodation conditions. > > Because nature uses the most intelligent method of design, natural > phenomena is an enigma to man--having not, to wit, attained divine > intelligence. Nature is operating on an advanced technological level > that, as Arthur C. Clarke said, is "indistinguishable from magic", and I > might add, nor is it distinguishable from divine intellect to those less > advanced. Even an agnostic cannot refute that it is the purpose of > science to comprehend nature. Quite clearly, natures designs are the > aspiration of human design. Science could be described as putting in > order the facts of experience as an aspiration to duplicate and use > Nature's design principles. > Scientists have noticed that all organized systems found in nature > aspire to a goal. That is, each organized system is contained within a > larger system and all systems are ultimately contained within the > comprehensive system called universe. The smaller system, the > micro-system, by working toward, or in achieving its goal, it > satisfies a need of a system of the next higher order. > One of the problems with evolutionary theory is that in order for an > organized biological system to evolve the system must itself have > knowledge of the goal to be achieved. Because of the geometric > complexity of the cell it has been proven that it is impossible for > mutations to happen at random with any success. Therefore, an > organism must pursue a consciously deliberate teleological evolution. > Teleological evolution would be satisfactory theory if there was any > evidence at all for progressive evolution in the fossil record. It can, > however, be proven that the systems do not have the knowledge of how to > physically evolve. > In other words, plants are not sitting around saying to one another; > ``If we do this, that, and the other thing, the environment, or the next > larger system, will benefit. This is what God wants us to do, because > these other organisms, this planet, and the universe are here for a > reason. And our teleological role is to work in support of our local > area. Our functioning in this local area provides a necessity to the other > systems in the area, which ultimately helps the whole universe reach its goals, > whatever those goals may be.'' In contradistinction, this is the > monologue that I am presenting here. To be deliberately teleologic is a > unique ability possessed be human beings. > In Synergetics, it is thought that the Universe has a comprehensive > teleology governed by design laws. These laws--that science is > discovering in the form of physical, chemical, biological, and > mathematical principles are a comprehensive metaphysical frame work that > allow the sub-systems of the Universe to work for the Universe's > teleology automatically, unconsciously, spontaneously, or inadvertently. > Buckminster Fuller makes an apt example in his metaphor of the honey bee. The > honey bee goes out "thinking" honey, honey, honey!, but unconsciously cross- > pollinates flowers. The teleology in this metaphor is the pollination of > the flowers, as-well-as the survival of the honey be, and moreover, the > survival of environment and of the planet as a whole. The success of the > planet in turn has something to do with the realization of the Universe's > comprehensive teleology. Although, we do not know the exact goals of the > Universe, there is no evidence in the scientific inventory of design > principles prohibiting the possibility that the Universe does have goals, > or a goal-- teleos. > The principle of teleology implies that if, first, we recognize the > fact that natures physical devices are designed more intelligently then > human beings are able to duplicate. And second, we witness, as a part of > natural design, regeneration, energy exchange, whole systems, and goal > seeking behavior. Thirdly, we study, derive, and employ these generalized > design principles. Then the design principles themselves are a > metaphysical system and the Universe has a comprehensive teleology. > According to General System Theory, by Ludwig von Bertalanffy, (1) a > whole system has a teleology, (2) a system is made of parts. (3) the > parts are divided into groups based on their unique characteristics. (4) > the parts have been deliberately included in the system in order to help > the whole system realize its teleology. (5)The success of the whole > system depends upon the success of the systems parts. (6) The success > of the systems parts depend upon the success of the whole. > Mark Davidson, in his book Uncommon Sense--about the life and work of > Bertalanffy--makes an apt example in his metaphor about cancer in the human > body. In a body stricken with cancer, the cancer cells multiply faster than the > surrounding cells, thereby creating a tumor. This causes a breakdown of > the whole system which, inevitably, leads to the destruction of both the > whole and the parts. This particular metaphor might be extended by > analogy to the world situation in regard to the destruction of the > ecosystem. > Humans are part of a comprehensive whole system called Universe. They > have been deliberately included in order to help the whole system realize > its goals. Their function as a group is unique from the other parts. > Our function as individuals are unique from one another. The success of > the whole system depends upon the success of the systems parts and vice versa. > Keeping in mind that nature casts many seeds, not all of which > germinate. The earth is a seed of human population. It has begun to > grow. In the 21st century we may come out of Buckminster Fuller's ``group > womb'' of collective unconsciousness--or, as I might say, ``a group womb > of spontaneously teleologic consciousness. > One of the things that science has discovered, is that although the > parts of the universe are very unique, they re all ultimately made of the > same thing--either energy as matter or energy as radiation. When energy > is associated in different patterns the systems produced are unique. > Since the universe requires so many different kinds of parts, it is > advantageous for us to consider the sub-systems on their degree of > uniqueness not on their degree of similarity. > One of the things that humans do that is unique from the other parts > of the system called universe is to plan and work teleologies. Another > ability that is unique to humans is our ability to store knowledge. Each > generation humans accumulate and store knowledge. Although knowledge is > metaphysical, it can only be stored and communicated through physical > devices. Each generation `ties' up this metaphysical > experience in "knots", or, rather, physical displacements of metaphysical > experience. These knots, in the form of books, and, now, in the form of > electronic information in computer memories, trap this knowledge for > future generations to study. Every generation, then, has the ability to > learn in a few hours what has taken millenniums to discover. This > ability gives each generation a synergetic advantage that may be > leveraged against solving humanities problems and toward finding our why > it is that we are here in the universe and on this planet. > > 229.00 Principle of Synergetic Advantage > 229.01 Definition: The principle of synergetic advantage > states that `macro to micro' does not equal `micro to > macro'. Synergetic advantage is only effected by `macro to > micro' procedure. Synergetic advantage procedures are > irreversible. `Micro to macro' procedures are inherently > frustrated. > 229.02 The notion that commencing the exploration of the > unknown with unity as one (such as Darwin's single cell) > will provide simple reliable arithmetic compounding (such > as Darwin's theory of evolution: going from simple to > complex; amoeba to monkey to man) is an illusion that as > yet pervades and debilitates elementary education. > 229.06 Universe is the aggregate of eternal generalized > principles whose nonunitary conceptual scenario is > unfolding manifest in a variety of special cases in local > time-space transformative evolutionary events. Humans > are each a special-case unfoldment integrity of the complex > aggregate of abstract weightless inter-accommodative > maximally synergetic non-sensorial Universe of eternal > timeless principles. Humanity being `macro to micro' > Universe, unfolding eventuation is physically irreversible > yet eternally integrated with Universe. Humanity cannot > shrink and return to the womb and revert to as yet > unfertilized ova. > > It is interesting how convenient this works. Taking into account the > macrocosmic principle of teleology, we have the ability to do these > things, or not do them, for a reason. According to Buckminster fuller, > "Since experience is finite, it can be stored, studied, directed, and > turned with conscious effort to human advantage." > > 502.23 This means that evolution pivots on conscious > selective use of human experience--[teleology]--not on > Darwin's hypothesis of chance adaptation to survival, nor > on his assumption of evolution independent of individual will > and design. > > We are confronted with a choice that no other part of the universe > has. We have the choice between being unconsciously teleologic, or > deliberately teleologic. Since we have this unique ability it is to our > advantage to use it. It is the purpose of the science of Synergetics to > discover the deliberately teleologic aspects of our experience and to use > them for the benefit of ourselves as a whole--i.e., for humanity. > > > II. Introduction to the Geometry of Thinking > life is but a dream. > -R. Buckminster Fuller > > One of nature's teleologies is to accomplish all designs with the > minimum possible use of time, space, and energy. Nature, by the use of > minimum limits, maximizes results. Buckminster Fuller emphasized the > practice of solving problems from a macrocosmic and holistic > perspective. Ironically, holistic perspective is often achieved through > the observation of minimum limits. Minimum-maximum limits are called > Extremal Principles. > > "An extremal principal is a particular kind of integral law of > motion...The extremal principle itself does not distinguish > between maxima, minima and unchanging intermediate > values; any one of these three is a possible actual motion. > Historically, it was first thought that extremal principals > pick out minima; hence the word "least" in the title of the > early principles (Principle of Least Time, Principle of Least > Action). It was soon realized that the actual values picked > out by the principles are extreme values rather than > minimum values."[1] > > What R. Buckminster Fuller has done in his two books, Synergetics and > Synergetics 2, is generalize the extremal principles in terms of > geometry. He calls them Maximum-and-Minimum-Limits, The Prime Law of > Regenerative Design and the Principle of Conceptual Minimums. > In synergetics we are concerned with minimum distance, minimum > structures, minimum systems, and the minimum use of time, space and > energy. According to Fuller, > > "There are no experimentally demonstrative, absolute- > maximum limits. Only the minimum limit is demonstrably > absolute--even when it looks like a point...All > characteristics of a system are absolute because each of > its components is the minimum-limit case of its > conceptual category, for all conceptuality--as Euler > discovered and proved--consists at minimum of point, > areas and line."[2] > > This essay concerns itself with the minimum of the patterning elements > themselves. I am concerned with the minimum-limit geometric shapes of points, > areas and lines. In the science of synergetics all investigations into > Nature require a generalized topological investigation. > There are several reasons for the use of topology in scientific > investigations. > a.) all physical phenomena have a shape. > b.) all of the phenomena can be described in terms of > points, areas and lines. > c.) the phenomena can be absracted, at its minimum, > into tactile models and ought to be, because > > "The mind lays hold of particular things. It can not know > an abstraction that it has not itself made. Hence the > fundamental scholastic principle, 'Nothing is in the intellect > that is not first in the senses.'"[3] > > R. Buckminster Fuller takes the requirement for generalized topological > investigations beyond the realm of the physical. He stated that all of the > metaphysical phenomena can also be described topologically, hence he > coins the term "epistemography". The "geometry of thinking" is used as > opposed to the phrase "line of thinking". He states, in fact, all > physical phenomena are inherently metaphysical. according to Mr. > Fuller, synergetics discovers,"The integration of geometry and philosophy > in a single conceptual system providing a common language and > accounting for both the physical and metaphysical."[4] > > Fuller rationalizes this statement with the facts of physical science and urges > scientists to make their findings explicit. > > "Sciences self-assumed responsibility has been self-limited > to disclosure to society only of the separate, supposedly > physical (because separately weighable) atomic > component isolations data. Synergetic integrity would > require the scientists to announce that in reality what had > been identified heretofore as physical is inherently > metaphysical--because synergetically weightless. > Metaphysical has been science's designation for all > weightless phenomena such as thought. But science has > made no experimental finding of any phenomena that can > be described as a solid, or as a continuous surface plane, or > as a straight line, or as an infinite anything. We are now > synergetically forced to conclude that all phenomena are > metaphysical; wherefore, as many have long suspected-- > like it or not--life is but a dream.."[5] > > The author recognizes that all "things" are made of electro-magnetic > waves, to the limit of measuring capability. Waves are metaphysical > weightless patterns detectable by virtue of a displaced medium. What was > previously considered, by the scientific establishment, as a "weight" is > really a quantity of "gravity". If gravity is a product of acceleration, > then waves have gravity, since they have acceleration. If waves are > metaphysical then metaphysical phenomena may have gravity. > > "While gravity's effects are physically measurable, the > concept of gravity is in itself unweighable. Likewise the > effects of electromagnetism are physically weighable. The > physicists have ruled intellectually that all is imponderable > is metaphysical. Clearly it is seen that the metaphysical > is to the physical as antimatter is to matter, i.e., as the > electron is to the positron."[6] > > Furthermore the universe itself is a metaphysical entity. All "things" > considered the universe is a weightless phenomenon. The ability of the > universe to be as it is, weighable and measurable, and still be > weightless entity is possible by virtue of the principle of > Nonsimultaneity, which I will explain later in this essay. > > "The most recent statements of the leading scientists hold > that the concept of original chaos is untenable because the > physical composition of the universe may not be reduced to > less that the orderly intertransformability of the neutron > and the proton and their respective weak-effect leftness- > and-rightness adjuncts the electron, positron; neutrino, > antineutrino--the positive and negative counterparts > including both their negative as well as positive weights, > ergo: the average of all weight of all physical phenomena is > zero."[7] > > There is a "twilight zone" threshold between what is normally considered > physical and what is considered metaphysical. This threshold of > uncertainty is not unlike the ambiguous threshold between animate and > inanimate material. A digression into the theory of the difference > between physical and metaphysical. > > "The supposed location of the threshold between animate > and inanimate was methodically narrowed down by > experimental science until it was methodically narrowed > down by experimental science until it was contained > specifically within the domain of virology. Virologists have > been to busy, for instance, with DNA-RNA genetic code > isolatings, to find the time to see the synergetic significance > to society of the fact that they have found no physical > threshold does in fact exist between animate and > inanimate. The possibility of its existence vanished > because the supposedly unique physical qualities of both > animate and inanimate have persisted right across > yesterday's supposed threshold in both directions to > permeate one another's--previously perceived to be > exclusive--domains. Subsequently, what was animate has > become foggier and foggier and what is inanimate clearer > and clearer. All organisms consist physically and entirely > of inherently inanimate atoms. The inanimate alone is not > only omnipresent but is alone experimentally > demonstrable. Belated news of the elimination of this > threshold must be interpreted to mean that whatever life > may be, it has not been isolated and thereby identified as > residual in the biological cell, as had been supposed by the > false assumption that there was a separate physical > phenomenon called animate within which life existed. No > life per se has been isolated. The threshold between > animate and inanimate has vanished."[8] > > What is learned from the disappearance of the threshold between > animate and inanimate is that all fundamental matter-energy has a limited > consciousness--1. a. Having an awareness of ones own existence, > sensations, and thoughts, and of ones own environment. b. Capable of > complex response to the environment. > Environment, in a comprehensive sense, is the universe, > > "Universe to each must be > all that is, including me. > Environment in turn must be > all that is, excepting me."[9] > > Itzak Bentov, in his book Stalking the Wild Pendulum, defines > consciousness at its minimum limit. > > "Let us define 'consciousness' in the simplest possible > terms. We can say that it is the capacity of a system to > respond to stimuli. This system may also be a nervous > system, no matter how simple. Suppose we stimulate an > atom by applying ultraviolet light or other electromagnetic > radiation to it. One or more of the electrons may get > excited and respond by jumping into a higher orbit farther > away from the nucleus. When we remove this stimulus, > these electrons may drop back into their previous orbits > and emit photons of a certain energy of frequency in the > process. By applying different stimuli, we shall elicit > different responses from this system. > "We may at first have trouble trying to visualize a > rock may also have difficulty in understanding human > consciousness. At present we restrict the term "living > beings" to beings that can reproduce. This, I believe, is > quite arbitrary. We seem to project our own behavior onto > other systems, by saying that starting from the atom and > going to larger aggregates there is no "life", and then > suddenly, when the aggregates of atoms have reached a > certain level of organization, "life" appears, because we > recognize our own behavior in it. My basic premise is that > consciousness resides in all matter; put another way, all > mass (matter) contains consciousness (or life) to a greater > or lesser extent. It may be refined or primitive. We human > beings are so designed that when properly trained we can > inter act with anything that has consciousness on > whatever level."[10] > > Higher order animate objects are a synergetic combination not only of > atoms and molecules in the physical sense, but they are a synergetic > combination of consciousness. Limited atomical consciousness cannot be > arbitrarily heaped together to produce greater consciousness, they must > be combined in a comprehensive and teleologic sense in order to produce a > whole that is greater than its parts. > The situation, of the disappearance of meaning for the word inanimate, > is very much the same situation between the words physical and > metaphysical. The term physical is only a linguistical convenience that > represents what is heretofore empirically measurable. There is really > one spectrum of animate metaphysics. Things on either end of the spectrum > of animate metaphysics. Things on either end of the spectrum stand out > as being mutually exclusive. But as we move toward the center of our > spectrum from both ends we see that they are fundamentally identical. > Physical and metaphysical are the opposite pole of one another. Each end > emphasizes one set of particular aspects. > The electromagnetic spectrum is another scenario that is very similar > to the scenarios of animate and inanimate, physical and metaphysical. We > have light on one end and sound on the other. On the surface, they are > apparently different, but upon further investigation we discover that > they are fundamentally the same. They are energy waves operating at > varying frequencies and at different velocities. I prognosticate that > the three scenarios animate-inanimate, physical-metaphysical, and > light-sound can be represented on the same spectrum. > We have this broad spectrum of animate metaphysical entities. On this > spectrum there are two general types of phenomena, generalization and > special case. Generalize means, "To reduce to a general form, class, or > law." More specifically, a generalization is a statement that can be > said to be true for every special-case known, but usually a > generalization is used within a certain context, without exception. > That is, a tetrahedron is both a generalization and a special case. A > tetrahedron is a tetrahedron independent of size and, or medium, which makes a > tetrahedron a generalization. A tactile tetrahedron, however, is a > special case. When we speak about tetrahedron (x), we are speaking about > a tetrahedron in generalization. But when we are speaking about "that > tetrahedron", a specific, point-to-able model "that you hold there in > your hand," we are speaking about a tetrahedron in the special case. > The term "special case" refers to a particular instance of an event-- > Buckminster Fuller called that a "point-to-able". In other words, I can > use the term car as a generalization, or I can show you a car--I can > point to it. A special case is always unique, down to every last quantum > particle. There are no special cases that are like any other special > cases. I can have two cars of the same make, model and number parked > next to one another, but clearly they are not the same car, except in > the generalized sense. > Since I have already eliminated the term "physical" because it is > realistically meaningless, the term special case can be substituted for > any circumstance when we may be inclined to use the term "physical". > Taking inventory of the words I have eliminated from the vocabulary of > this essay: I have eliminated physical and inanimate and have > substituted special case for the term physical and have made the terms > generalization and metaphysical equivalent in meaning. > > 1023.10 Systematic Enclosure > 1023.11 If we get too semantically incisive, the reader > may lose all connection with anything he has ever thought > before. That might not be a great loss. But we assume > that the reader can cope with his reflexes and make > connections between the old words and new concepts with > the new more apt words. For example, since physics has > found no continuums, we have has to clear up what we > mean by sphere. It is not a surface; it is a n aggregate of > events in close proximity. It isn't just full of holes: it doesn't > have a continuum in which to have holes. > 1023.12 The word polyhedron has got to go because it says > ``many sided,'' which implies continuum. We don't even > have faces. Faces become spaces. They become intervals. > They become nothing. The Einsteinian finite Universe--an > aggregate nonsimultaneous Universe--is predicated only on > the absolute finiteness of each local energy-event package > and the logic that an aggregate of finiteness is itself finite. > 1023.14 If we get rid of the word polyhedra, then what > word do we have in its place? A high-frequency, > omnidirectional, sphere event system. > > Using the nomenclature of synergetics and the nomenclature that I > have heretofore defined, what is done in a generalized topological investigation > is, an animate metaphysical phenomenon is abstracted into, what Fuller > termed, ``crossings, trajectories, and openings.'' > > "Euler showed that all optical experiences that we can > pattern or form are composed exclusively of three > patterning elements: lines, vertexes, and areas--or > trajectories, crossings, and openings, as they are known in > synergetics. These incontrovertible minimum aspect of > pattern are all that is necessary to analyze and inventory > all parts of all optically apprehended patterns as well as of > all whole patterns..."[11] > > What I will do in this essay is abstract the idea of the "line" into a > polygon to see what can be learned about the nature of an idealized, and > hypothetical, minimum limit trajectory. This essay is not a scientific > theory. I am dealing with the theory of a line in pure metaphysical > abstraction--i.e., philosophically--as opposed to experimentally. This > thesis, rather, molds the idea of a line by progressively applying > the relevant scientific generalizations as propounded in synergetics, as > well as, those postulated by myself--the conclusion. Measurement of > special case lines can only be done by means of experimentation. And > experimentation will be the true test of any hypothesis. > What I am trying to do with this essay is to discover the > generalization that represents what a line must be "greater than or equal > to", in pure principle. That is, to state what a line is in its simplest > possible terms without excluding the characteristics necessitated by the > principles of design. > > > III. The Volumetric Line > Buckminster Fuller said that there are no zero dimensional points, one > dimensional lines, nor two dimensional planes in any of all demonstrable special > cases. The concepts of zero, one and two dimensionalities are useful > only when a particular measurement does not require the consideration of > the other dimensions to fulfill its purpose. However, in that they don't > describe any special case , they can be conceptually damaging when > introduced to young minds as axioms. > In this essay a line is enlarged volumetrically, because we know that > empirical special case lines require a volumetric shape represented with > aa minimum of three spatial dimensions. This enlargement is referred to > in Synergetics as the miniaturization concept (Synergetics, 740.20). > Specifically, miniaturization explains the observes transcendence of > cosm's. The observer's reference frame is moved from the mesocosm to the > microcosm. The microcosmic reference frame becomes the current > mesocosmic frame. A line that is apparently one dimensional is "blown-up", > in size, so that it can be viewed three dimensionaly. Then the > principles of minimum-limit case topologies are used to discover the > minimum-limit case of a line. The usefulness of minimum-limit cases > comes from the observation that maximum-limit-cases are not known, in > terms of topology. There are no comprehensible maximum-limit topologies. > There are, however, the minimum-limit topologies can be known, and they > can be known definitively. > In the science of synergetics we use the terms "finite" and > "definite." The word infinite has been discarded because of the First > Law of Thermodynamics, the law of conservation of energy, which states > that "energy can be neither created nor lost." The quantity of energy in > the Universe is constant, it is the quality of energy that changes. This > means that the number of interrelationships between energy quanta is > also finite. Although we do not know, definitively, the number of > quanta, ergo, the number of interrelationships between quanta that > produce a topology of crossings, trajectories, and openings, we do know > that the quantity is finite and not infinite by virtue of pure reason. > A number (x) is finite. To say (x=5) reduces the quantity (x) to a > definite of five. The number five is, however, a generalization. The > number five can represent five oranges or five apples, etc. > > 535.00 Halo Concept > 535.01 The phenomenon ``infinity'' of calculus is inherently > finite (see Synergetics 224.11). Universe is non- > simultaneous but finite, because all experiences begin and > end, and being terminal, are finite; ergo, Universe as the > sum total of finites is finite. > 535.02 Nonsimultaneous Universe is finite but > conceptually undefinable. We discover that Universe is > finite and a local system is definite... > > The Universe is divided into considerable sets. Systems in the > macrocosm, mesocosm, and microcosms can be vastly complicated. And the > complexities cannot be accurately measured. This inability to measure > things accurately is referred to by Werner Heisenberg as the "uncertainty > principle." Things which are too large, or too small, or too numerous to > be accurately measured cannot be arbitrarily subtended to > the infinitely large, small or numerous just because they are out of our > "lucidly relevant set." Calling things that are too complicated to be > considerable seems to be our compulsive way of dealing with things > outside our comprehension. Buckminster Fuller recognized that there are > things outside our human conceptuality and has developed a rational > method for dealing with them without blanketing them with the > non-descriptive term "infinite." > In the example of the five oranges, limiting "five" to "five > oranges" is not altogether accurate . We can go much further and > describe them as certain chemicals, containing a certain number of atoms, > that weigh so much, etc. We can estimate how much energy they contain in > terms of "quanta". In the sub-atomic realm, things become increasingly > ambiguous. As we progressively reduce our measurements we become unsure > of how small things can get and what these things are really made of, and > so on. With the idea of a considerable set we can boarder our awareness > without stating that the oranges are made of "infinitely small particles > that exist in (x) invisible and irrational dimensions. And that these > tiny particles are themselves infinitely divisible, etc., because if we > can infinitely divide a number, empirical reality is the same case. And, > of coarse, these particles have plenty of charm and flavor too." What we > do with a considerable set, by calling them "five oranges" is dismiss the > microscopic irrelevancies and still communicate the necessary > information. In other words, it isn't necessary to know everything in > order to know something. I know oranges when I see them. > > 509.00 Considerable Set > 509.01 The conceptual process is never static. Thinking > does not consist of the insertion of invented images into an > otherwise empty vacuum-tube chamber called brain. > Thinking is the self-disciplined process of preoccupied > consideration of special-case sets of feedback answers > selected out of the multitude of high-frequency alternating > transceiver brain traffic. This traffic consists of > omniexperienced and processed answers to present or past > questions, formulated either by the conscious or > subconscious coordinating initiative of the individual's > overlapping generation of group memory. > 509.02 A considerable set is a locally definitive system > within Universe that returns upon its considerability in all > circumferential directions and therefore has an inherent > withoutness and withinness; the latter two differentiable > functions inherently subdivide all Universe into two unique > extremes of macro- and micro-frequencies. > 509.03 For instance, we find that all irrelevancies fall into > two main categories, or bits. One set embraces all the > events that are irrelevant because they are too large in > magnitude and too frequent to be differentially resolved at > the wavelength to which we are tuned, ergo, in any > discernable way to alter the interrelationship values of the > set of experience relationships we are considering. Having > dismissed the two classes of irrelevancies, there remains > the lucidly relevant set to be studied. > > Knowing that special- case somethings require a volumetric shape in at > least three spatial dimensions, and knowing that maximum limit topologies > are not known. It is logical to begin topological investigations at the > minimum-limit, because minimum-limits can be known. The minimum topology > in the Universe is the tetrahedron. Any empirical special-case something > cannot have a topology less than four crossings, six trajectories, and > four openings. The shape of any special-case something must be greater > than or equal to a tetrahedron. > Any point that is an empirical special-case something is a polyhedron. > Whatever polyhedron it is, it must be either too small or too far away > or else we would not perceive it as a point. The polyhedron that we call > a point could have an incomprehensibly complicated topology. But since > we do not know exactly what the polyhedrons topology is, it may be > considered a tetrahedron. In synergetics, anything that cannot be > measured is reduced to a polyhedron at its minimum-limit case > because of Nature's propensity for ephemeralization, the prime law of > regenerative design. > > 167.00 There are several corollaries to the prime law of > regenerative design durability and amplitude of > reproduciblity. Corollary A: The simpler, the more > enduringly reproducible. Corollary B: The special case > realizations of a given design complex correlate as the more > symmetrical, the more reproducible. Corollary C: There > being limit cases of optimum symmetry and simplicity, > there are simplicities of conceptual realization. The most > enduringly reproducible design entities of Universe are > those occurring at the min-max limits of simplicity and > symmetry. > 168.00 Corollary D: There being unique minimum- > maximum system limits governing the transformation of > conceptual entities in Universe, which differentiate the > conceptually unique entities of Universe into those > conceptions occurring exclusively outside the system > considered and all of the Universe inside the conceptual > entity, together with the structural pattern integrity > system separating the inside from the outside, there being > a limited minimum set of structural and operating > principles eternally producing and reproducing recognizable > pattern integrity. And there are likewise a minimum set of > principles that interact to transform already orderly > patterns into other structure patterns, and there being > minimum constituent patterns that involve the complex > intertransformings and structural formings of symmetrical > orders and various magnitudes of asymmetrical deviations > tolerated by the principles complexedly involved. There are > scientifically discoverable nuclear aggregates of primary > design integrity as well as complex symmetrical > reassociabilities of the nuclear primary integrities and > deliberately employable relationships of nuclear simplexes > which designedly impose asymmetrical-symmetrical > pulsative periodicities. > 169.00 Corollary E: The more symmetrical and simple and > nuclear, the more frequently employable; ergo, the more > frequently occurring in eternally regenerative Universe's > transformative problem solutions. > 170.00 Corollary F: The smaller and simpler, more > symmetrical, frequently occurring in Universe and the > larger and more complex, less frequently originally > occurring and periodically reoccurring... > > A "one dimensional" line is, supposedly, the interrelationship > between two "points" via the most economical route. That line can also > have an unlimited, or "infinite," number of "zero dimensional points" > along that line. Which is really nonsense, since a line is a > polyhedron. A line is definitely about so long, is made of so many > atoms, which are about so big; it definitely starts here and ends there. > It does not go on to infinity, because for a special-case line in a > Universe with a finite amount of energy. Real lines have a shape in at > least three dimensions. I don't see how an unreal line can be useful, > not even conceptually. Synergetics concerns itself only with > special-cases and generalizations about special-cases. One dimensional > lines and zero dimensional points do not describe anything point-to-able, > so they will not be used in this thesis. > With synergetic thinking a line is at minimum the interrelationship > between two tetrahedra along the most economical route. A line is a > polyhedron. According to Fuller: > > 240.06 A line is a tetrahedron of negligible base dimension > and significant altitude. > > A line could have an incomprehensible number of points, edges, and > areas, but, by employing the prime law of regenerative design and the > theory of conceptual minimums, we can learn some important facts about > this line without having the capability to examine the line directly. We > may first use the principle of minimum limit topological cases and the > principle of nonsimultaneity. > > > IV. The Nonsimultaneous Line > > One view is that the world essentially consists of things, > and any changes we notice are really secondary, arising > from the way things interact with one another. The > alternative is that the world consists of processes, and the > things we decern are only stills out of what is essentially a > movie. > -C. H. Waddington > > The principle of nonsimultaneity was coined by R. Buckminster Fuller. > Fuller's "nonsimultaniety is analogous to the relativity of simultaneity > discovered by Albert Einstein. Einstein's relativity of simultaneity > states that events that are perceived from one location as simultaneous > are not perceived as simultaneous from another location. Buckminster > Fuller said that the discovery of nonsimultaneity is a consequence of the > Michelson-Morely experiment that discovered that light had a velocity. > The velocity was subsequently measured by Albert A. Michelson in 1926. > What is denoted by the principle of nonsimultaneity is the fact that > light, having a velocity, took time to transfer itself and/or information. > In order for things to be congruent in time, i.e., simultaneous, they > must also be congruent in space. Omnicongruence of two or more > special-case somethings cannot be demonstrated. Therefore, all > special-case somethings are spatially separated ergo, nonsimultaneous. > Buckminster Fuller referred to this spatial separation as a > "gravitational trampoline" which prohibits special cases from actually > touching. This observed spatial separation causes a difference between > the time an event happened and when it is perceived to have happened. > The quantity of nonsimultaneity is the distance between the two events > divided by the velocity of light. The importance of this fact in the > minimum topology of a line is that a line ephemeralized is a trajectory. > > 530.00 Nonsimultaneity > 530.01 Thought discovers that we divide Universe into an > "outwardness and inwardness," so thinking is the first > subdivision of Universe, because Universe, we discovered, > was finite. Thinking is a nonsimultaneously recallable > aggregate of inherently finite experiences and finite > experience furniture--such as photons of light. One of the > most important observations about our thought is the > discovery that experiences are nonsimultaneous. > Nonsimultaneity is a fundamental characteristic, and if > experiences are nonsimultaneous, you cannot have > simultaneous reconsideration. > 530.02 All the words of all the vocabularies could be said to > represent all the formalized attempts of men to > communicate all their experiences. So we could set out to > examine all the dictionaries of the world. We can pick up > any one dictionary and discover a nice finite package. We > can open one page, but we cannot look at all the words at > once. If we cannot look at all the words even on one page, > we certainly cannot look at all the words of a whole > dictionary at once. It does not make the dictionary infinite > because we cannot look at all the words at once or think > about all the words at once. The inability to think about > everything at once does not mean that experience or > consideration of experience is infinite. It is perplexing that > one of the most persistent contemplations of human beings > has been predicated on a static concept of Universe, the > kind of Universe that went out with classical Newtonian > mechanics. We cannot think of Universe as a fixed, static > picture, which we try to do when people ask where the > outwardness of Universe ends. Humans try to get a finite > unit package. We have a monological propensity for the > thing, the key, the building block of Universe. What we > discover here is that it is not possible to think about all > Universe at once. It is nonsimultaneously conceptual. > This in no way mitigates against finiteness and > thinkableness. > > By employing the principle of nonsimultaneity a point can be animated > in a trajectory that will be perceived by the observer as a simultaneous > line. Suppose a point on a computer is moved slowly from point (a) to > point (b) in a straight line. It will appear as a dot moving > progressively through a series of positions in a line. When the velocity > of the dot between point (a) and point (b) is accelerated to 15cps it will no > longer look like a dot moving through a series of positions, but a > continuous line between point (a) and point (b). The reason for this > illusion is that there is a lag time between when the information, the > light, leaves the event, reaches the eye, and is interpreted by the > brain. The brains visual faculty cannot perceive the intervals > between events that occur more frequently than 15cps. > Buckminster Fuller referred to this illusion as a "film-strip event," > because of its likeness to a moving picture., where several still frames > of an event are presented so rapidly that the still frames, the still > photographs, appear to show a continuity of motion. In other words, a > moving picture composed of still photographs gives the illusion of > natural motion. > Buckminster Fuller called the Universe a scenario, because of the > principle of nonsimultaneity and the illusion of continuity it causes. > The Universe, on the practical level, in the mesocosm, is doing the same > thing with natural events as were shown to happen with the point on the > computer screen and with a move film-strip. > According to Fuller, when we look at the night sky, > > 530.07 We are looking at a live show that took place > thousands of years ago. In looking at the night sky we are > looking at stars that are not where they really are. In > some cases those stars don't even exist any more. > > In the film-strip event that I created on the computer monitor, I took > advantage of the high velocity of the point moving across the screen to give the > illusion of a continuous line, that there was more energy there that > there really was. In other words, to make the line between point (a) > and point(b) with individual dots it would take several dots to fill in > the line, but I created a line with a single dot in a trajectory. The > relative high velocity of light causes the illusion in slow sensorial > systems, like the human brain, of energy being in more that one place at > a time. In the example of the line on the computer monitor, the dot > appeared to be in both point (a) and point (b) simultaneously as well as > at every point between point (a) and point (b). Stars in the night sky > appear to be here, but are really there depending on where you observe > the stars from. > Buckminster Fuller refers to the Universe as a scenario, and not a > system, because, on the macrocosmic level, the nonsimultaneity becomes > increasingly discernable as the distances are increased. As we already > know, however, generalizations are true independent of size. This is > true, then, in both the mesocosm and microcosm, as was seen with the > animated dot on a computer monitor. > What I would like the reader to imagine in regard to the minimum-limit > case of a line is a polyhedron moving progressively through a series of > positions in a straight line. The point is a polyhedron and the > polyhedron is a polyhedron at its minimum-limit, that is, to say, a > tetrahedron. Imagine that the point on the computer monitor is a > tetrahedron and suppose that the line is the trajectory of that > tetrahedron. The minimum limit of a line is the trajectory of a tetrahedron. > My hypothesis is that the tetrahelix is a generalized representation > of the most economical trajectory of a tetrahedron. It takes Fuller's > generalization a step further by applying the principle of > nonsimultaneity. While a line may be ``a tetrahedron of negligible base > dimension and significant altitude,'' the edges of that primary > tetrahedron are subject to the other generalizations which necessitate > that the edges of the primary tetrahedron are: > (1) at least three dimensional > (2) by applying the extremal principle, a trajectory. > > Ergo, the minimum limit of a line, the minimum limit of all edges of all > polyhedra is the trajectory of a tetrahedron, i.e., a tetrahelix. > > > V. The Influence of Novent on Event > > In Science, Order, and Creativity by Dr. David Bohm and F. David > Peat the causal interpretation of quantum mechanics is presented. > > p.94 > In, for example, the double slit experiment, each particle > responds to information that comes from the entire > environment. For while each particle goes through only one > of the slits, its motion is fundamentally affected by > information coming from both slits. More generally, distant > events and structures can strongly affect a particles > trajectory so that any experiment must be considered as a > whole... > > The third fundamental aspect of a generalized polyhedron are the > faces, or openings as they are known in Synergetics. Buckminster Fuller > uses the word "opening" to describe what is usually known as an area or a > face. > An opening is not considered two dimensional in the science of > Synergetics, an opening is at minimum three dimensional, because is > always-and-only attached to a polyhedron. An opening is only discernable > because it is framed by trajectories that converge at crossings. > > "There are no areas in Universe that cannot be said to be > attached to at least a tetrahedron that can be traced > between four points, for example, the stars in the night > sky." > > It is thought in physics that atoms do not touch physically. > > "They are relatively as remotely spaced as the planets and > moons in the solar system." > > 524.00 Novent > 524.01 We experience events and no-events. Ergo, we > invent novent. Novents characterize the finite but > nonsensorial remote masses' interattraction, i.e., the > gravitational continuum. > 524.02 Seeming "space" is the absence of energy events. > The word space as a noun misleadingly implies properties > that are all together lacking. > 524.03 All our experiences are periodically terminated: the > termination characterizes both the physical and the > metaphysical aspects of our observing faculties and the > observed phenomena. There are no experimentally known > continuums. Physics has found no "solids." We have only > awake or asleep--experience or nonexperience--occurrence > durations and nonoccurrence intervals; either discrete and > unique packages of energy or thought, on the one hand. or > of nonenergy or nonthought, on the other hand. Each and > all are as uniquely differentiable, and as separable, from > one another as are the individual stars of the Milky Way. > 524.04 The noevent continuum is the novent. The novent > continuum permeates the finitely populated withinness > and comprises the finite novent withoutness. Novent is > the finite but nonsensorial continuum. > > Because of the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the Law of the Increase > of the Random Element, systems containing energy have the desire to > disperse their energy equally in the surrounding environment. This is > the essence of Avogadro's Law of Gases and of Brownian Movement. Places > with high gas, or energy, content equalize with low gas, or energy, areas > in order to create a isotropic and homogeneous "atmosphere." In the > terms of meteorology, high pressure areas and low pressure > areas spontaneously become equal in pressure. The equalization, > however, is never fully achieved. > In a modern paradigm of physics it is thought that the force causing the > equalization of energy is contained within the energy itself. They call > it the "weak force," which, they say, is responsible for the decay of the > atom, or any energetic system. I think that the force impelling entropy > is contained within the omnipermeating and omnicircunferential space > nothingness in that it "pulls the energetic system apart. I propose that > this nothingness, or novent, has an influence on energetic systems and > that this influence stems from the fact that it is not. > > > VI. The Tetrahelix Involvement Field > > > 1033.00 Intertransfromability Models > 1033.011 Commencing with the experimentally > demonstrated proof that the tetrahedron is the minimum > structural system of Universe (i.e., the vectorially and > angularly self-stabilizing minimum polyhedron consisting > of four minimum polygons in omnisymmetrical array), we > then discover that each of the four vertices of the > tetrahedron is subtended by four ``faces,'' or empty > triangular windows. The four vertices have proven to be > only whole-range tunable and point-to-able noise or > ``darkness'' centers--which are primitive (i.e., as yet > frequency blurred), systemic somethings (see Secs. 505.65, > 527.711, and 1012.33) having six unique angularly > intersightable lines of interrelationship whose both-ends- > interconnected six lines produce four triangular windows, > out through which each of the four system-defining > somethings gains four separate views of the same > omninothingness of as-yet-tuned-in Universe. As > subtuneable systems, points are substances, somethings-- > ergo, we have in the tetrahedron four somethings > symmetrically arrayed against four nothingnesses. (Four > INS versus four OUTS.) > 1033.012 The four somethingnesses are mass- > interattractively interrelated by six interrelationship > tensors--each tensor having two other interconnected > tensors restrains preventing one another and their four > respective vertexial somethings from leaving the system. > Like a three-rubber-banded slingshot, each of the four set > of three restraining, but in fact vertexially convergent, > tensors not only restraints but also constraints their > respective four somethings to plunge aimedly into-through- > and out their respectively subtended triangular windows, > into the unresisting nothingness, and penetrating that > nothingness until the stretchable limit of the three tensors > is reached, whereat they will be strained into reversing the > direction of implement of their vertexial somethings. Thus > we discovered the tetrahedron's inherent proclivity to > repeatedly turn itself inside out, and then outside-out, and > reverse. Thus the tetrahedron has the means to convert > its tuned-in-ness to its tuned-out-and-tuned-out-ness, > which inherently produces the frequencies of the particular > discontinuities of the electromagnetic Universe. > 1033.013 Because there are four symmetrically arrayed > sets of nothingness subtending four somethings, there are > four ways in which every minimum structural system in > Universe may be turned inside out. Ergo, every > tetrahedron is inherently eight tetrahedra, four outside-out > and four inside-out: the octave system. > > The tetrahelix involvements field theorizes what the trajectory of a > tetrahedron at its minimum-limit case, the tetrahelix, would look like > from a fixed point of observation. I suspect, that if the vertices of a > tetrahedron were traveling at a constant speed, say the velocity of > light, and were initially positioned at equal distances from the center > of gravity of the tetrahedron, and converged at the same time, the > vertices would collide at the center. > Therefore, I think, that if the vertices were to converge at > the center at a constant velocity then they must, initially, be > positioned at different distances from the center. > > > VII. Notes > > > ENDNOTES******************************** > > [1]. Encyclopedia of Philosophy > > [2]. R. Buckminster Fuller, Synergetics,505.63-64. > > [3]. Hugh Kenner, The Poetry of Ezra Pound,p. 76. > > [4]. R. Buckminster Fuller, Synergetics, 251.50. > > [5]. Ibid., xxxi. > > [6]. R. Buckminster Fuller, Utopia or Oblivion, p. 311. > > [7]. Ibid., pp. 311-12. > > [8]. R. Buckminster Fuller, Synergetics, xxx. > > [9]. Ibid., 100.012. > > [10]. Bentov, pp.77-78. > > [11]. R. Buckminster Fuller, Synergetics, 505.11. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Jan 1995 21:01:25 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Kirby Urner wrote: > >> Despite the artifact he wanted to see outside the UN building in NYC, the > >> textual evidence suggests, strongly, that Fuller did not envision global > >> government under UN auspices (cite: desovereignization, Grunch of Giants). > > > >That only shows that Fuller repeditively contradicted himself. He could > >have chosen any artifact and put it anywhere, but he felt that the UN > >would be the BEST place. Why? > > > > Not a contradiction. One can see the UN as a useful bridge, a temporary > arrangement of entities, on the way to something else. Just because I don't Like the United Federation of Planets or something? > think the UN will be around forever doesn't mean I don't want it to have > a geoscope to look at in New York today. Huge waste of money, if you've ever been East of the East River , you'd see why. > > >> in a global university. Each city is a campus. You do curriculum work and > >> you get credits towards stuff you want and/or need. No one body controls > >> either the curriculum or the flow of credits. Lots of operating systems, > > > >You're trying to tell me that in the world we live in grades and credits > >aren't regulated? What happens when someone submits plagerized work? I > >think they get in trouble. Does that engage the Law? You haven't used > >the word 'law' once. > > So they get in trouble. So what? In the future, there will be rules, there > will be regulations, laws, games, illegal moves, consequences, punishments, > rewards, criminal acts. I don't see one all-governing game though. People So, in a sense you accept proposition #4, just not in one game. > interested in implementing Fuller's ideas don't sit down with a blank sheet > of paper and say "hmmm, lets dream up a new set of laws with the authority > of Law behind them." The strategy is to place artifacts into the public > domain, and see if they get adopted because they're useful. People Intel > and Apple Computer are in this same line of work. So, you don't think that addressing the powers that be, this is just going to naturally unfold itself into a bright sunny day. > > >> most computer-based, are set up around the world, and people have a > >> large degree of latitude as to which programs they want to enroll in. > >> Lots of bickering, disagreement, hostility, angry debate, continues to > >> characterize the global dialog. > > >I think we're on to some thing here when you say "infrastucture" there > >doesn't need to be a regulatory body to manage an infrastructure? > > Many bodies, partially overlapping. We have lots and lots of infrastructure > today and no single body in charge. If your point is that assets need to > be managed, protected against terrorists, then yes, I agree. If your If you agree to this then you agree to the taking of human life, and to the means of control. If a small country revolted against the powers that be you'd shut their power off 1,2,3,4. > point is that all assets need to be managed by one Giant Government, > then I say I don't see it that way. You seem to imply that Fullerites are > all for Global Government and then put the question "how do you intend > to govern?" My response (I can't speak for other Fuller fans) is I am > *not* all for Global Government and don't see that we need one. > When it comes to managing human affairs, more local bodies, with > lots of local participation, are the way to go. Big distant bureaucracies > ain't so good -- even the corporate bureaucracies are leaning this > to some degree. But that doesn't mean we can't cooporate enough to > create global utilities (we already have, and do). > > >Some how I believe you're imaging a world where there aren't any people. Or a > >government without people, something like that. Your going to need > >everyone to be happy in order to make the world work for everyone. What > >are you planning to do with the people who don't cooperate? > > I wouldn't need everyone to be happy for my definition of the world working > for everyone to be satisfied. If people are not forcefully deprived of life > support, > and have opportunities to pursue happiness, that's enough for me. Some > spiritual conditions are beyond helping with the provision of infrastructure. > A kid can be miserable in Disney World, even after multi-billions have been > spent to make a "Magic Kingdom." Your ultimate happiness is your problem -- > I'd just like to make sure you don't have to starve or get thrown away because > you aren't "employable." What if they believe that their happiness depends on preventing what you are proposing. Should they be killed? > > >> I can envision a world with a globally integrated energy distribution grid, > >> communications system etc, that is ethnically diverse, linguistically > >> diverse, full of differing views and movements, schools of thought, > >> militant mobs, political camps. I can see such a world developing > >> systems for feeding more people, housing and clothing them, despite > >> their hate for one another. I can see all this happening without some > >> giant big brother Law-backed global government imposing its will on > >> the global population. > > >Like you said, you're "imagining" things. It's simulation--a hyperreal. > >Did Fuller or did he not say that in the "future" we could somehow image > >peoples responses to news events with satalites? You don't see the > >existence of the equipment itself is directly contigent on a group of > >individuals getting together to produce and operate it, would that be an > >institution? And once the information is obtained, isn't something going > >to be done with it? Would that be a Decision Making Body? How clear do > >I have to make this? > > Lets suppose a satellite tuned to frequencies x,y and z could pick up > the general satisfaction level of humans in a particular area. If people > were miserable, a bluish color would appear on the screen. Very > contented people would generate a yellowish cast. Suppose we had > something like a weather report, which showed the world and the > colorations. Ugly suffering in Bosnia. Lots of yellow pockets scattered > about, not just in "industrialized" areas either. We can go on and > add colors keyed to their meanings and write a lot of science fiction to > go with it. > > In some science fiction, the population response map is secret and > used by a Decision Making Body to oppress. In other science fiction, > the map is public, available at any library or school at the touch of a > button, frequently shown on the evening news. No Decision Making > Body as such uses the information, but the feedback loop created by > billions of humans watching their own emotional state, like a face in > the mirror, definitely has many overt and subtle sociopolitical > effects. The science fiction can be given a sinister or a benign spin. > > Fuller had a benign streak a mile wide, so probably the sinister distopian > version didn't haunt him as it does you. In any case, the possible > satellite-fed loop of demographic information did not occupy a central > part of his proposals. He generatated a lot of visions, as any good > visionary does. If such a technology is feasible, no one group will necessarily > implement it for a single purpose. We're talking about a high tech, > real time version of opinion polling in a way. We already have > zillions of polling agencies, some public, some privately commissioned. > No one Decision Making Body of global scope is behind all the polling > that goes on. Why does putting satellites into the picture change this > fact? > You've totally missed the point. > > >No kidding we're facing it today. What makes you think we won't be > >facing it down the road? Have you found a solution or something? If you > >have a solution I'd like to hear it, that's why I'm poisting the question. > > No I don't think we won't be facing it down the road. I think we can > provide better infrastructure and take care of more people at a higher > living standard *without* solving all the problems of domination, > control etc. That will continue to be a struggle. People will fight for > their freedoms, rights, dignity, against others who wish to dominate, > suppress, curtail, exploit. That's a story without end, as far as humanity > is concerned. That doesn't mean we can't get on with the business of > fighting for those freedoms and rights. Ultimate victory is not in my > sights, but the goals along the way are worth attaining nonetheless. > > >I think the budern is on you to show that Buckminster Fuller's ideas > >are correct. It you who need to show that the world can work for > >everyone and how it can be done, since you're the one who is propounding it. > > > >Don't play games with this stuff. > > > >Ted > > I've said a lot about it. Develop the Hollywood cast of thousands multi-million > box office extravaganza into a new type of "scenario production" where casts > of world game players (global U students by another metaphor) star in > real world multimedia scenarios about making the world work. Brand name > highlighting, popular in modern films, would continue, attaching Grunch > logos to prototypes used in our films. For example, Boeing or AirBus might > have a dwelling machine in one episode, with the company brand prominently > displayed. Commericalization? Yes. The design science revolution will be Not just commercialization, but the manipulation of thought. > a boost to world trade. I'm looking at the supranational/infotainment nexus > for good "making the world work" programming, with lots of contemporary > sound track by local artists (different tastes for different demographics, as > per usual). God help us. > If Fuller's vision is to make headway, it'll have to be managed as scenarios > production, with these "true life" cop shows being a kind of prototype (in that > we'll be wanting our prototype dwelling machines, airlifted to famine sites or > earthquake rescue zones, to be working, real devices, not "props" with no > reality behind them). The culture is going to need to be much cleaner than it is now. _------------------------ Ted ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 02:06:59 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Daniel Haun Organization: Bethany Christian Services Subject: Re: Questions Regarding Domes In-Reply-To: <3ea6n1$9h3@peaches.cs.utexas.edu> Hi All, First time I have posted to this "group". I was real into domes about 1984. I remeber reading several books on a dessign called the "Hexadome". Anyone recall this design? It Involved taking four hexagons and three trapazoids together to make a domelike structure, I believe the "basic" design had a 27 foot ceiling. There was a company I believe in California that prduced the kits for this thing. Has anyone heard of a such a thing? daniel.... daniel_haun@fc1.glfn.org daniel@grfn.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 01:41:07 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: More Campbell/Urner dialog On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Edward H Campbell wrote: >On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Edward H Campbell wrote >[many paragraphs deleted] Note: As a general rule, I don't think you need to quote long, continuous blocks of text -- especially your own. >Eventaully, if authority is denied at every step of the way, >it will find its power at the next level of the pyramid >(local, state, federal) until it reaches the top of the >pyramid. This seems a tremendous oversimplification to me. >If Fuller addressed this he did so by encouraging people >to go global, see ourselves as members of "Humanity" to >have all the boarders go away and so on. But, that only >get rid of the National Monad, it combines Monads. Part of the problem with nations is the topology of ethnic groups is not a simple 2-dimensional jigsaw puzzle. New thread: Given the ongoing process of desovereignization, I think individual consumers will need to take more responsibility for voting with their incomes, countering the GATT with highly informed buying. This is part of my global ideology I suppose. >It looks to me like the people who ardently believe in Fuller's >works think that if part or all of his philosophy collapses the >will be an apocalypse, I wouldn't worry too much. I agree with you. A lot of Fuller's predictions, plans, strategies, philosophy, may not have long term relevance. A lot of it may. We shall see. >>Just because I don't think the UN will be around forever >>doesn't mean I don't want it to have a geoscope to look at >>in New York today. >Huge waste of money, if you've ever been East of the East River >you'd see why. I have been and I don't, but never mind; I don't think this UN geoscope is going to happen as written up in Critical Path. Much simpler to do smaller models or computer-driven animations on monitors -- for the UN folks or anybody else to access. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: What if they believe that their happiness depends on >preventing what you are proposing. Should they be killed? No. People have a right to strongly disagree with one another. I'd want my right to espouse my views to be protected as well. Yes, this means I'm advocating we continue to live by various rules. I fail to see how this is controversial. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: >of contemporary sound track by local artists (different >>tastes for different demographics, as per usual). >God help us. Partly I'm thinking of those "We are the World" rock concerts that are supposed to benefit a worthy cause, but don't seem to go anywhere. Design science is about getting a little further than media hype, with real, positive, prime time shows. >> If Fuller's vision is to make headway, it'll have to be >>managed as scenarios production.... we'll be wanting our >>prototype dwelling machines, airlifted to >>famine sites or earthquake rescue zones, to be working, >>real devices, not "props" with no reality behind them). >The culture is going to need to be much cleaner than it is now. This means what exactly? To summarize my view: I agree with you that humanity is experiencing a new level of convergence, fueled by whatever factors (e.g. technology, population growth). This is happening regardless of Fuller-type ideology and will carry us towards some future or other. We can anticipate and design for the future, or pretend we're helpless and let it happen willy nilly. A fun article in Atlantic Monthly over a year ago talked about globalizing commericial culture versus the "jihad" tendency of groups of humans to rebel against the perception that their ways and traditions are being submerged by some monoculture that renders them powerless, turns them into dolls in some Small World After All global shopping mall. Many in the USA are as suspicious of the globally commercial culture as elsewhere. Fuller used David vs Goliath metaphors to write about the Gross Universal Cash Heisting of assets by supranational corporations, which leaves humans fearful, clinging to largely empty political rhetoric, watching their once bright futures grow dim. Fuller questioned the moral authority of the limited liability corporation, endowed with the rights of humans, plus virtual immortality and greater freedoms to mobilize capital around the world than individuals encumbered by visas and passports. He questioned the institution of mortgage lending as the principal means of providing housing in much of the world. In my view, Fuller was about giving generations to come a sense of what is merely human invention, and therefore subject to change. Future generations should not feel encumbered by all the "bright ideas" hatched by those who came before. I see one individual "giving it his best shot." I am grateful for the effort. His ideas seem more constructive and well- thought out than most of what I hear from politicians or other "world leaders." Given that convergence is happening, I think creating realistic, attainable visions of a future that is not too disappointing and crushing for most people is the best way to avoid having convergence mean catastrophe. Fuller may have provided some pieces of the puzzle as to how we can secure a positive future, but he was not, nor did he see himself as, the sole architect of some Brave New World. What we create is up to all of us. Fuller was just another world game player, playing as hard as he knew how. He was driven by a sense of urgency, and a sense of longing, since he really felt he could see a hopeful way forward. He was not a religious leader, not a cult figure, not a prophet, not an ideologue. 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Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 10:47:14 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: GNU Dome Design Software Available Here is part 2 of the dome.zip file. 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M7TR.1!G#1]0J8U_BY/#YY'A\='(T^4/&;,K+R%ASNP\CIP_8']S_V_]OQ8[_ MF'[\,)Q\3+!3?>MX:ZFJAS&/)UC0FCPY3>&Q#\24\R+E]\>0PG[`$;2GG3_) M.,J+6$78JO"R+'ZYV_XO9`5\@G>\%?QN`F$>?Q$)ODMU@[_(.?*RK)_\-BJ+ M&V>RF`8FSY0U:_;.*%QY"D*W^?79)0X/7DP.#PXGIY/C@\-7^&!67G9^7F/& MKI:3F*FH+->8B0==IG9%_F59G!P?3$XFIY-Q65R(?&.CW*W@B9S,FCVZ%/,F MFGE8J:ADP9/U5FL*P:PLE<5@BYD^4QMXA/;[8._'.!_CL@_1(VCT]^/1VA[;,U:+$HZ(/M5VZ-2J6XB M>?RE8C-,K-B0\:CHH"S6QHE0.A6-H#K"K/$FE,4Y*>\L#>>[%)I=,K*G[09N M+EA6TY%L1AM3Y;&7.LM*'A%-%_`$]6ZWW,MCE/6Q&$,*:HT+DMMYD@TA-PJZ M4:Z6ZZ3&K>HQQ\;0%CNH:?R0>:_+XO]02P$"%``4``8`"`#OAB$>F'=QWDX: M``!K7@``"``````````!`"``````````1$]-12Y#4%!02P$"%``4``8`"`!O MB"$>MC;`Q!^T``#=G0$`"````````````"````!T&@``1$]-12Y%6$502P$" M%``4``8`"`!3D"$>D1'"Q24'``!1#@``"``````````!`"````"YS@``1$]- M12Y46%102P4&``````,``P"B````!-8`````&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH: M&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH:&AH: %&AH:&AH: ` end -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 04:30:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: More Campbell/Urner dialog X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, Kirby Urner wrote: > >>The strategy is to place artifacts into the public domain, > >>and see if they get adopted because they're useful. This is an excellent strategy. Theoretically you can access the patent office and and the Library of Congress and send it to any computer in the world. But there is still a problem of access on the other end. Not to mention realizability. > > >So, you don't think that addressing the powers that be, > >this is just going to naturally unfold itself into a bright > >sunny day. > > Artifacts have created many powers that be (e.g. Con- Edison). > To come up with believable scenarios which provide higher > living standards, featuring an assembly of inter-complementary > artifacts, is to challenge the powers that be, which may not > be all that anxious for people to start dreaming of an > alternative housing industry, or non fossil fueled cars, > or energy-autonomous communities or... I believe that its great to provide people with a higher standard of living. I don't believe that this will effect political power structures in a meaningful way. > > >> Many bodies, partially overlapping. We have lots and lots > >>of infrastructure today and no single body in charge. > >>If your point is that assets need to be managed, protected > >>against terrorists, then yes, I agree. > > >If you agree to this then you agree to the taking of human life > > Protecting human life is more important than protecting > infrastructure. Notice how terrorists go after people > over blowing up expensive substations where no one gets hurt. > That's what "terror" _means_: no one would be so terrified > if someone just destroyed an empty jumbo jet in an airport hanger. > Simply creating a lot of inconvenience is not the point of a > terrorist bombing. By this reasoning, I wouldn't expect > some high voltage link between Siberia and Alaska to be a > very sexy target for whatever militant groups. Anything which is a symbol of the culture is a target. Terrorist also blow up substations, bulldozers, they burn down buildings, poision wells, vandalize, sabatoge, rob banks, extort money, commit rape, kidnapp,et al. When you'rer planning on protecting human life from these things, you're going to engage Law and political structures as well as institutions. The only way to prevent invoking institutional power is to control a persons thoughts. Some of the institutions in America are becoming very good at it. Full time professors work on this stuff. Ligusitical analysis and social engineering for instance. > > Countries are forever revolting and being stomped on. People get > killed all over the place. The ideology of nations, > nationalism, this tendency to create patriarchal military > hierarchies in defense of the "Fatherland" is certainly > deeply engrained. Carl Sagan thinks science shows that > owe our modern military governments to our "chimp" (pre-human) > heritage. > > My expectation would be that downplaying the importance of > a person's "national origin" or citizenship might lead to > less death in the long run. This doesn't mean surrendering > one's culture or language. Ethnicity is not synonymous > with citizenship. This implies the creation of a "one world society." By downplaying this you're manipulating thought. People are entitled to their beliefs. Do you think Israel ascribes to this "Fatherland" idea, because it doesn't. Judaism is a matrilinear genealogy. Many people, including myself, believe that Germany should continue to be punished for another 50 years, per the terms of their surrender. Many others believe that a thousand years of punishement would not be enough. How do plan on getting around these kinds of feelings in the world? There are many people who are willing to enforce them. Downplaying "multiculturalism" is only going to work here in America. People have very different ways of looking at the world, you can call them Zenophobic--fear of strangers, or strange things, but these cultural roots run deep and they should. Things are going to get much uglier when the "one world island in a one world ocean" begins demanding very personal things from people, like duty and loyalty. >What if they believe that their happiness depends on > >preventing what you are proposing. Should they be killed? > > No. People have a right to strongly disagree with one another. > I'd want my right to espouse my views to be protected as well. > Yes, this means I'm advocating we continue to live by various rules. > I fail to see how this is controversial. If they're planing to oppose you in a violent manner? Presumably, this is going to be illegal. At this point you engage law and political institutions. If it weren't controversial there would be wars. Implicit in your statements is the idea that everyone is living under your Monad, your laws, your political institutions, your decorum, etc., which is 100% American and embided in Christian notions. The culture that envelops you has prefigured much of your thought and you don't see how it is operating on you and through you. ------------------------------- Ted ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 13:26:34 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: IVM spheres radius X from O In <199501021756.JAA22567@desiree.teleport.com> pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) writes: >>>The idea is to illuminate all >>>the golf balls in a closest packing that are distance X from an origin, >>>regardless of what VE shell they're in. You won't always get the same >>>pattern illuminated, depending on the radius. >> >>are we talking about distance X exactly or between X and X+dX? there's >>a big difference! >> >>i'd love to read about the results of this investigation. >We're talking about distance X exactly, from IVM sphere origin to some >central sphere origin. an animation of the different patterns as they appear during the growth of the sphere would be fascinating! -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 14:17:13 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Resent-From: FEARNLCJ@DUVM Comments: Originally-From: fischer@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu (Jack Fischer) From: "Christopher J. Fearnley" ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ****************************************************************************** THIS MESSAGE IS BEING SENT TO YOU BY THE BUCKY SERVICE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA. IF YOU WISH TO RESPOND, PLEASE USE THE ADDRESS GIVEN IN THE MESSAGE. PLEASE DO NOT DIRECT YOUR RESPONSE TO BUCKY OR FISCHER. THANK YOU. ****************************************************************************** Attached is the list of invited speakers for Fullerenes: Chemistry, Physics, and New Directions VII, Reno May 21-26, 1995. We value more contributions, particularly by students and 'newcomers' to our symposia. Student membership in the ECS is $10, and students could sponge up an incredible amount of information at this meeting. Please note that the deadline for abstracts for individual sessions is Jan 5; therefore, at this time, please send your abstract to the organizer of the General Session, Rod Ruoff. You may send it electronically, as ECS typesets the 75-200 word abstracts now (they no longer need camera ready abstracts) prior to Jan 10. If you must fax, please ensure that your copy is crisp and dark, so that the fax version could be scanned in by ECS. We have always sought a relatively democratic perspective on these meetings, and they have been valuable forums for exchange on all fronts of fullerenes and related materials research. This meeting will have a new session (Superconductivity), and several sessions are expanded substantially over the Spring '94 meeting held in San Francisco (e.g., Technology, and Electrochemistry/ESR); at the same time, papers in surface science & thermodynamics, pharmaceutical & biochemistry, and particularly in extraction & purification, are welcomed. Please note the session you wish to be considered for, and if there is no obvious match then 'general session'. I will notify session organizers if an invited talk is desired, and space permitting. Speakers in the General session and from the Former Soviet Union have not been included in this listing, as those lists are in the process of being compiled. All FSU scientists must send their abstracts to M. Korobov as per previous Call for Papers announcements. He will be forwarding them. Come play the poet's game in Reno! Rod Ruoff Molecular Physics Laboratory SRI International 333 Ravenswood Avenue Menlo Park, CA 94025 fax 415 859 6196 phone 415 859 2667 email RUOFF@MPLVAX.SRI.COM I. Technology Session organizer: Dr. F. Chibante, 1. Barrera E. Rice Univ. 2. Bartholomew, D. D. Modern Technologies 3. Bell, W. TDA Research 4. Bethune, D. IBM Almaden 5. Chiang, L. Y. National Taiwan Univ.,Taiwan 6. Chibante, L. P. F. BuckyUSA 7. Cox, D. Exxon 8. Dubois, D. TechnoCarbo, France 9. Ebbesen, T. NEC, Japan 10. Eklund, P. U. Kentucky 11. Fields, C. Colorado State U. 12. Green, M. L. H. Oxford, England 13. Gruen, D. M. Argonne National Lab 14. Haddon, R. AT&T Bell Labs 15. Halas, H. Rice Univ. 16. Hamza, A. V. Lawrence Livermore Lab 17. Hebard, A. F. AT&T Bell Labs 18. Heinze, J. Dragerwerk, Germany 19. Homann, K. H. T. H. Darmstadt, Germany 20. Howard, J. B. MIT 21. Hoxmeier. R. J. Shell 22. Hwang, K. C. National Tsing Hua Univ., Taiwan 23. Job, R. C. Micromet 24. Kost, A. Hughes Aircraft 25. Krusic, P. Du Pont 26. Loutfy, R. O. MER Corp 27. Malhotra, R. SRI International 28. Marchetti, G. A. 29. McClain, R. D. Nalco Chemical 30. McKinnon, J. T. Colo. School of Mines 31. Mirkin, C. A. Northwestern 32. Neumann, W. L. Mallinckrodt 33. Patil, A. O. Exxon 34. Remo, J. L. Quantametrics 35. Richmond, R. C. U. Dartmouth 36. Sariciftci, N. S. U. C., Oakland 37. Shackle, D. R. Valence Technology 38. Smalley. R. E. Rice Univ. 39. Stalling, D. L. ABC Laboratories 40. Taylor, R. U. of Sussex, England 41. Temerin, M. Term Ltd. 42. ter Meer, H.-U. Hoechst, Germany 43. Theobald, J. U. Metz, France 44. Thomann, H. Exxon 45. Wang, Y. Dupont 46. Wilson, L. J. Rice Univ. 47. Ziolo, R. Xerox II. Theory Session organizer: Prof. J. Cioslowski 1. L Adamowicz U. Arizona 2. P. A. Cahill Sandia 3. J.-C. Charlier Catholic University, Belgium 4. J. Cioslowski Florida State 5. J. Tinka Gammel Los Alamos 6. M. Heggie Univ. Exeter 7. E. Osawa Toyashi University, Japan 8. K. Raghavachari AT&T Bell Labs 9. C. M. Rohlfing Sandia 10. A. Rosen Chalmers Univ, Sweden 11. G. E. Scuseria Rice U 12. Z. Slanina National Chung-Cheng University III. Superconductivity Session organizer: Dr M. -N Regueiro 1. D. Jerome CNRS Orsay, France 2. L. Forro EPFL Lausanne, Switzerland 3. A. Zettl U. Berkeley 4. Z. Iqbal Allied Signal, New Jersey 5. T. Palstra AT&T Bell Labs IV. Organic Functionalization Session organizer: Prof. A. Hirsch 1. R. Taylor Univ. Sussex, England 2. M. Maggini Univ Padova, Italy 3. A. Smith III U. Penn 4. S. Wilson New York Univ 5. J. Averdung Univ Muenster, Germany 6. A. Hirsch Univ Tuebingen, Germany 7. T. Akaska Univ Tsukuba 8. Z. Slanina National Chung-Cheng Univ, Taiwan 9. P. Boyd Univ Auckland, New Zealand V. Photoexcited states Session organizers: Prof. P. Kamat, Prof K.-D. Asmus 1. K.-D Asmus Hahn Meitner Institute, Germany 2. R. V. Besasson Museum National d'Histoire Naturelle, France 3. S. Leach DAMAP-CNRS, France 4. S. P. Sibley San Jose State Univ 5. R. B. Weisman Rice Univ 6. P. V. Kamat Notre Dame Univ 7. D. I. Schuster New York Univ 8. D. M. Guldi Hahn Meitner Institute, Germany 9. J. R. Morton Steacie Institute, Canada 10. H. Levanon Hebrew University, Israel 11. K.I. Priyardarsini BARC, Bombay, India 12. S.H. Gallagher Univ of Sydney, Australia 13. Y.-P. Sun Clemson Univ 14. A. Stasko Croatia VI. Gas Phase/ Mass Spectrometry Session organizers: Drs. S. McElvaney and D. Lorents 1. M. Jarrold Northwestern 2. S. Anderson SUNY-Stony Brook 3. R. Beck U. Karlsruhe, Germany 4. D. Lorents SRI International 5. B. Hettich Oak Ridge National Lab 6. J.-P Deng National Taiwan University 7. S. McElvaney Naval Research Laboratory 8. M. Bowers U.C. Santa Barbara 9. K. Lykke Argonne National Lab 10. P. Hvelplund U. Aarhus, Denmark 11. D. K. Bohme York U, Canada 12. E. E. Campbell Berlin, Germany 13. T. D. Mark U. Innsbruck, Austria 14. D. Tomanek Michigan State U 15. R. Schmidt Dresden, Germany VII. Extraction/purification Session organizer: Prof. S. Prakash 1. VIII. ESR/ Electrochemistry Session organizer: Prof. L. Echegoyen 1. A. Bard U. Texas 2. Y. Chabre Lab. de Spect. Physique, France 3. A. Deronzier Lab. de Electro. Organique, France 4. F. Diederich ETH Zentrum, Zurich, Switzerland 5. K. P. Dinse U. Darmstadt, Germany 6. L. Dunsch Inst. f. Festkorp. u. Werkstoffforsh., Dresden 7. S. S. Eaton U. Denver 8. L. Echegoyen U. Miami 9. D. H. Evans U. Delaware 10. W. R. Fawcett UC-Davis 11. S. Gorun Exxon 12. J. Heinze U. Freiburg, Germany 13. N. Hirota Kyoto Univ., Japan 14. M. T. Jones U. Houston 15. K. M. Kadish U. Houston 16. L. Kevan U. Houston 17. K. Kikuchi Tokyo Metropolitan U., Japan 18. H. Kobayashi Toho University, Japan 19. S. G. Kukolich U. Arizona 20. H. Levanon Hebrew Univ. Jerusalem, Israel 21. J.-C. Moutet URA CNRS 22. K. Mobius Hebrew Univ Jerusalem, Isreal 23. J. R. Norris Argonne National Lab 24. Y. Ohsawa Nissan Research Ctr, Japan 25. M. D. Pace U. Wisconsin 26. S. Pekker Res. Inst. Solid State Phys, Hungary 27. A. Penicaud U. Nacional Autonoma de Mexico 28. M. Prato Univ. Trieste, Italy 29. K. F. Preston Steacie Institute, Canada 30. C. Reed Univ Southern California 31. H. Shinohara Nagoya University, Japan 32. T. Suzuki Inst. for Molecular Science, Japan 33. M Terazima Kyoto University, Japan 34. G. J. Van Berkel Oak Ridge National Lab 35. H. Van Willigen Univ. of Massachusetts 36. L. J. Wilson Rice University 37. F. Wudl UC-Santa Barbara 38. R. Yazami CNRS, France 39. F. Zhou Oak Ridge National Lab 40. R. P. Ziebarth Ohio State University IX. Metallofullerenes Session organizer: Dr. T. Kato 1. K. -P Dinse U. Darmstadt, Germany 2. H. Shinohara Nagoya Univ, Japan 3. S. Nagase Yokohama Univ, Japan 4. T. Hashizume Tohoku Univ, Japan 5. S. Suzuki Tokyo Metropolitan Univ, Japan 6. W. Andreoni IBM Research Division-Zurich, Switzerland 7. D. S. Bethune IBM Research-Almaden 8. Y. Achiba Tokyo Metropolitan Univ, Japan X. Organometallic Chemistry Session organizer: Prof A. Balch 1. J. Shapley U. Illinois-Urbana 2. P. Fagan DuPont 3. C. Reed Univ. Southern California 4. T. Rauchfuss U. Illinois-Urbana 5. A. Balch UC-Davis XI. Pharmaceutical/biochemistry Session organizer: Prof C. Hill 1. R. F. Schinazi Emory School of Medicine 2. W. Scrivens U. South Carolina 3. C. Hill Emory Univ 4. L. Y. Chiang National Taiwan University, Taiwan XII. Surface/Thermodynamics Session organizers: A. Hamza and M. Balooch 1. I. V. Hertel Berlin, Germany 2. A. Hebard AT&T Bell Labs 3. T. Sakurai Japan 4. C. K. Mathews India 5. W. M. Jackson UC-Davis 6. M. Balooch LLNL XIII. Solid State, Diffraction studies Session organizer: Prof. K. Prassides 1. R. Blinc Slovenia 2. D. E. Cox Brookhaven National Labs 3. J. Fink Dresden, Germany 4. L. Forro Lausanne, Switzerland 5. H. Kuzmany Vienna, Austria 6. A. A. Lucas Namur, Belgium 7. M. C. Martin SUNY-Stony Brook 8. G. Meijer Nijmigen, The Netherlands 9. D. A. Neumann NIST 10. T.T.M. Palstra AT&T Bell Labs 11. D. M. Poirier U. Minnesota 12. K. Prassides U. Sussex, England 13. J. Stankowski Poznan, Poland 14. B. Sundqvist Umea, Sweden 15. K. Tanigaki NEC, Japan XIV. Nanoencapsulates, nanotubes Session organizers: Drs. S. Subramoney and G. Lavin 1. B. Chang Northwestern Univ 2. G. Lavin DuPont 3. D. Bethune IBM-Almaden 4. S. Seraphin U. Arizona 5. M. Greene U. Oxford, England 6. S. Majetich Carnegie Mellon Univ 7. M. McHenry Carnegie Mellon Univ 8. E. Kochman Strauss Chemical Corp 9. K. Parvin San Jose State Univ 10. Y. Saito Mie University, Japan 11. R. S. Ruoff SRI International 12. J. Cowley Arizona State Univ 13. M. Terrones U. Sussex, England 14. S. Subramoney DuPont XV. Former Soviet Union research Session organizer: Prof. M. Korobov XVI. General Session Session organizer: Dr. R. S. Ruoff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 11:26:56 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Models In-Reply-To: ; from "Gus Harris" at Dec 30, 94 1:39 pm Gus Harris writes: > > Just sent a post about "Gerald's model construction" and thought it was > going to the list--apparently it went just to Gerald. > > What I said was that I have constructed numerous models of Geospheres, > tensegrity spheres, icosahedrons and tetrahedrons, etc. both small and > large (15-20 ft.) and I'd be glad to describe my construction techniques to > anyone interested in a specific model. Just mail me direct. > > Gus Harris > GHARRIS@UWF.CC.UWF.EDU > Pensacola, FL > .- > Post your instructions on how to build various models to the Geodesic list. There could be a whole section in the archives on how to build various types of models so that others could download the instructions and build the models. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 14:42:44 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tom Dosemagen Subject: Re: Stewart Brand's Criticism I have lived in a Natural Spaces dome that I built almost completely by myself for the past 15 years and my doesn't leak; water or air. I am completely satisfied with my dome and I would recommend Natural Spaces to anyone interested in building a dome. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 14:11:48 MDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ken G. Brown" Organization: BEST Online Subject: Artifacts of RBF I would like to obtain the 4 volume set 'Artifacts of R. Buckminster Fuller', new or used. Does anyone have them for sale or know where I could obtain them? Thx. Ken G. Brown (kbrown@atc.edmonton.ab.ca) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 19:56:40 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Cross-posting from FIX -- Geodesic dome model kits I got this from FIX. I thought others here might find it useful: >From STEPHEN BURKART Msg #4255 *GEODESIC DOMES* To KIYOSHI KUROMIYA Tue Dec 27, 1994 11:51pm (Rcvd) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Geodesic dome model kits. The Edmund Scientific 1994 Annual Reference for Educators, Students and Inventors contains a number of products that may be of interest to FIXers. Quix II Wire Configuration Sculpture, $22.95 Star Structure Construction Set, $25.00 Geodesic Dome Kits, a) The Small Sphere Kit, $4.79 b) Geodesic Dome Kits, 1. Large Dome Kit, $16.95 2. Mini Dome Kit, $7.95 Edmund Scientific, 1-609-547-8880 -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 17:30:53 EST/EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DAMICO@GELMAN.CIRC.GWU.EDU Subject: Re: Stewart Brand's Criticism > > garym writes: > I haven't lived in a dome, but I have visited some badly built ones > and these do fit Stewart's assessments regarding whispers, leaks and > non-standard parts, but these were problems with the kinds of domes > built by the post-commune societies, ie. domes built by hand, > primarily of wood. Looking over the Natural Spaces homes, I'm ready > to concede many of the troubles have been solved, even with wood, > by Fuller's first advice on dome construction: Use aircraft technology > in a mass-production. > > [stuff deleted] > > Rob responds: > > It certainly seems based on Brand's fairly limited text that he > is talking about things done in the 70s more than the relatively > long-established companies, such as Natural Spaces. This is sad, > as he is a powerful voice and his statements, if not pertaining > to domes-with-the-bugs-worked-out are bound to be misleading > and detrimental. > > Perhaps this group should prepare a letter to send Mr. Brand. > This, come from a diverse audience of builders, users, and thinkers > might have more weight than some particular company, such as > Natural Spaces, complaining, as they have a vested interest. > If anyone else is interested, I would serve as the editor > of the correspondence. > > I think a group response is a quality idea. I'm wading through holiday E-mail so before I chime in I'll look at the rest of the conversation. "Just call me Trimtab" {~~~| R. Buckminster Fuller ~~~| _______ | / \ | BDAMICO@GWUVM.GWU.EDU ___________/__________\______|_____ \ Trimtab: A tiny gear / Blaine A. D'Amico |\ which moves the rudder / Systems Specialist ~~~~~~ |__\ that turns great ships / ~~~~~ Design Science Revolutionary --------------------- Comprehensive Generalist ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 17:45:36 EST/EDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DAMICO@GELMAN.CIRC.GWU.EDU Subject: The impressive qualitity of the conversation on this list. I have just been catching up on my Geodesic reading and I would like to start this new year by thanking all of you for the thoughtful, intelligent and challenging dicussusions. I value very thread and excitedly await what 1995 will bring. I look forward to working with all of you in bringing about the design science revolution. "Just call me Trimtab" {~~~| R. Buckminster Fuller ~~~| _______ | / \ | BDAMICO@GWUVM.GWU.EDU ___________/__________\______|_____ \ Trimtab: A tiny gear / Blaine A. D'Amico |\ which moves the rudder / Systems Specialist ~~~~~~ |__\ that turns great ships / ~~~~~ Design Science Revolutionary --------------------- Comprehensive Generalist ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 08:10:56 KST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DANTES Far East Field Office Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange Questions Regarding Domes Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange [ 95] Edward H Campbell Tetrahelix article Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange Questions Regarding Domes More Campbell/Urner dialog More Campbell/Urner dialog More Campbell/Urner dialog GNU Dome Design Software Available GNU Dome Design Software Available More Campbell/Urner dialog IVM spheres radius X from O Models X-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl I am sorry to have to do this, but I've been trying for several months to get off someone's list. I am no longer on the listserver, I haven't been since late November, but I continue to receive messages. I can only conclude that one of those to whom this message is being sent added my address to their alias file. Please search your alias file for dantes-oof@emh7.korea.army.mil and delete it if it is there. Thank you ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 16:45:33 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: PostFAQ Could someone please post the FAQ for tell me where to get it? I got the log for 94/12, but it wasn't there, so I guess it isn't auto-posted every month. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 15:52:56 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: More Campbell/Urner dialog >I believe that its great to provide people with a higher standard of >living. I don't believe that this will effect political power structures >in a meaningful way. Political power structures have evolved in response to the question: how to deal with the problem of not nearly enough for everyone. Starting to have enough would be upsetting to the political status quo. >The only way to prevent invoking institutional power is to >control a persons thoughts. Some of the institutions in America are >becoming very good at it. In other words, thought control is another manifestation of institutional power. But you use "thought manipulation" rather broadly it seems to me, in a way which allows me to see at as just something people do, as individuals and collectively. And we need to be aware of the methods of the "hidden persuaders" -- media sophistication is something people can learn and use to propagate their own ideas, over local cable access channels for example, or via the world wide web. >This implies the creation of a "one world society." By downplaying this >you're manipulating thought. People are entitled to their beliefs. Do >you think Israel ascribes to this "Fatherland" idea, because it doesn't. >Judaism is a matrilinear genealogy. Many people, including myself, >believe that Germany should continue to be punished for another 50 years, >per the terms of their surrender. Many others believe that a thousand >years of punishement would not be enough. How do plan on getting around >these kinds of feelings in the world? There are many people who are >willing to enforce them. By downplaying nations, I'm not downplaying ethnicity or traditions. Nations are hurting ethnic groups, forcing them into the ideological mode of flag and country, when many tribal traditions had no such alien clap trap. Forcing complex topologies of ethnicity into simple-minded cookie cutter, jigsaw puzzle cut-outs, ala geopolitical units called "nations", is damaging to people. Palestinians are so inter-settled with Israelis, Bosnian Muslims with Christian Serbs, that trying to force a 2-dimensional grid on them is just causing more problems, which can work against their cultural integrity, since war destroys memories, families, the ability to get on with cultural development. We need to downplay the nation state ideology for the sake of cultures and their integrity, not for the purpose of ending diversity. Nations can "go global" in computer infrastructure, as they have already on the radio spectrum (e.g. Voice of America). There is plenty of "metaphysical bandwidth," -- you can tune in, access, Israeli culture and traditions, government services and institutions, without interference from neighboring channels, even though other traditions have global networks operating as well. To make the USA operating system (USA OS) globally accessible (e.g. http://www.whitehouse.com) is not to stifle and stomp on other systems that want to spread their own Good News (e.g. the Vatican). Allowing traditions to recover their metaphysical origins and get off the bloody, 2-dimensional game board of nation state jigsaw pieces is to rescue them, not wipe them out. Look at IBM, Avis and Hilton, global corporations all, with internal systems of governance, ways of developing living standards for their "citizens", even cultures (some companies even have "anthems"). But they don't stage big multimedia war-fighting extravaganzas over "IBM Land" versus "Hilton World" -- because corporate topology, while global in scope, is intricately networked. Ethnic topologies are also networks. Israel and Palestine are zillions of dots around the world, all interconnected, with concentrations Jerusalem, Ramallah, Long Island etc. And we can still have flags and national airlines, national currencies -- I'm describing what I see as the reality of today. Of course most books show the world game board according the the jigsaw puzzle model -- but our Dymaxion Map is refreshingly devoid of such. People who want to stick to their jigsaw Mercators are welcome to them. They have their own favorite networks to dial up and feel at home within. I don't need them to see the world the way I do. My culture is simply not to everyone's taste. >Downplaying "multiculturalism" is only going to work here in America. You mean the USA I presume. But how am I downplaying multi culture? >People have very different ways >of looking at the world, you can call them Zenophobic--fear of strangers, >or strange things, but these cultural roots run deep and they should. >Things are going to get much uglier when the "one world island in a one >world ocean" begins demanding very personal things from people, like duty >and loyalty. I think Fuller saw himself as part of a culture. He traced history through the evolution of our highest technology, which was maritime. He believed in a long line of nautical cultures living beyond the control or even awareness of the landlubber kingdoms. Polynesians, Phoenecians, Vikings, Venetians... these are the chapters in the history of a high seas, global tradition in Fuller's thinking. Do they have a flag? The Jolly Roger? Maybe the twisted serpant: Naga, the wavilinear back of the ocean's horizon. You could say Fullerians are one more odd-ball cultural minority with quirky beliefs and traditions. Most people see the world in terms of nations, and will continue to see it that way. I don't expect the Fuller School to suddenly become mainstream, nor does it need to in order to have an impact on living standards. Lots of domes out there, but very few have heard of synergetics. >If they're planing to oppose you in a violent manner? Presumably, this >is going to be illegal. At this point you engage law and political >institutions. If it weren't controversial there would be wars. The problem of people getting violent over their differing beliefs is a toughie, I admit. I don't have a solution. This is a violent species that gets very serious about its internal wiring. I think we can move to take care of more people at higher living standards without picking fights with all the ideological groups. Some camps will find the Fuller camp antithetical, but I suspect most will continue to consider it irrelevant and obscure, which is just fine. >Implicit in your statements is the idea that everyone is living under your Monad, >your laws, your political institutions, your decorum, etc., which is 100% >American and embided in Christian notions. The culture that envelops you >has prefigured much of your thought and you don't see how it is operating >on you and through you. Yes and no. I've lived outside the US as much as in. Been on a kibbutz, dug a swimming pool with Palestinians, programmed a telex billing system in the Himalayas, taught in Catholic school for 2 years in Jersey City.. 5 years in Italy, 4 in the Philippines. Been to Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Nepal, Vietnam, Burma... every country in Europe except Poland and Albania, until a few were added recently. My parents are currently in Africa, where I was this summer. My "one worldism" has an experiential underpinning. I celebrate the diversity I've come to know, and have become. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: > I would like to obtain the 4 volume set 'Artifacts of R. Buckminster > Fuller', new or used. Does anyone have them for sale or know where I could > obtain them? Thx. > > Ken G. Brown (kbrown@atc.edmonton.ab.ca) > .- > Try the Buckminster Fuller Institute at BFI@aol.com. Please ask them to post a list of materials that are available. If they don't want to post their catalog themselves for some reason, could someone with a recent copy of their catalog please post it to the Geodesic list? Thanks. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 16:20:33 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Rick's DOME program Chris -- thanks for posting Rick Bono's DOME program in uuencoded form. I know some subscribers will probably feel annoyed by all that mumbo jumbo, which not everyone can convert -- but for those wanting encouragement, I'm reporting that I had no problems decoding the posts and running DOME.EXE on my computer. Excellent! Thanks Rick and Chris. Any ideas about a simple "back end" that reads Rick's coordinates from the generated ASCII file and plots a picture? Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: writes: KU> Political power structures have evolved in response to the KU> question: how to deal with the problem of not nearly enough for KU> everyone. Starting to have enough would be upsetting to the KU> political status quo. This is not how I read "Grunch". Political power structures evolved specifically to deal with maximizing the take by the one on horseback from those on foot; I'd call this a perfectly normal "maximizing function" intrinsic to proper brain functions ("get more with less"), hence, there is no sickness to cure or status quo to upset --- when invention makes an old world less profitable, the same maximizing function will follow a new carrot. >> The only way to prevent invoking institutional power is to control >> a persons thoughts. Some of the institutions in America are >> becoming very good at it. KU> In other words, thought control is another manifestation of KU> institutional power. But you use "thought manipulation" rather KU> broadly it seems to me, in a way which allows me to see at as just KU> something people do, as individuals and collectively. And we need KU> to be aware of the methods of the "hidden persuaders" -- media KU> sophistication is something people can learn and use to propagate KU> their own ideas, over local cable access channels for example, or KU> via the world wide web. the best pursuasion is always by example. Bucky pursuaded with his Guinea-Pig B, he pursuaded by building larger free-span structures, by offering a new geometry and by just doing Bucky-like things. >> This implies the creation of a "one world society." By downplaying >> this you're manipulating thought. People are entitled to their >> beliefs. A.J.Krapper challenged peoples beliefs and knowing the few Luddites I do, I expect there were those in his England who thought flush toilets were the Devil's work :) When revolution happens by invention, people are let to whatever beliefs. Radio does not care that my great grandma thought it evil, and neither do the millions who are right now in earshot of a marconi. KU We need to downplay the nation state ideology for KU> the sake of cultures and their integrity, not for the purpose of KU> ending diversity. or could we let them play their game while we play ours and when we collide, endeavour to invent a new way around them? I think Kirby's internet comments are a wonderful example ... KU> Nations can "go global" in computer infrastructure, as they have KU> already on the radio spectrum (e.g. Voice of America). There is KU> plenty of "metaphysical bandwidth," -- you can tune in, access ... KU> The problem of people getting violent over their differing beliefs KU> is a toughie, I admit. I don't have a solution. This is a KU> violent species that gets very serious about its internal wiring. KU> I think we can move to take care of more people at higher living KU> standards without picking fights with all the ideological groups. exactly: in a true solution, everybody wins anyway. That synergetics is obscure does not prevent the widespread use of space-frames or in any way compromise the people using these structures. Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 -------------------------------------------------- Today's work today ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 00:29:18 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "HERBERT D. KING" <75672.1174@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: excuse me... X-To: cro-news@medphys.ucl.ac.uk the best incense 20 sticks per pack $1. minimum purchase 5 packs. rose, opium, black love, nag champa, vanilla, cinnamon, patchouli, sandalwood, blue nile, egyptian musk, coconut, rain. free incense holder with 12 packs. add $3. for shipping. CA residents add 8.25% sales tax. send check or noney order to cynthia wiley, p.o. box 91098 los angeles, ca 90009-1098 int'l orders add $6. for shipping ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 00:08:15 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Campbell/Urner Debate X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu Apparently this group will not allow me to subject Fuller's work to critical analysis. I attempting to construct a carefully reasoned analysis of Buckminster Fuller's "world view". I'm finding my essays hacked apart with "cut and paste" commands to the point which could be called nothing less than revisionist. If one cannot complete their own essay that coherantly responds to my own, then don't bother to write to me because your just wasting my time. Don't simulate an interjection by responding to my argument line by line. Write your own essay in respone. I'm perfectly capable of comparing the two. ------------------------------- Ted Please note I expect well reasoned and cafully crafted respones. --Ted ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 00:09:41 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange [ 9 [ 150] Edward H Campbell X-To: geodesic%ubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Edward H Campbell wrote: > > > A number of my questions have not been answered in this exchange,I just > > > want to write this to make sure that the thread hasn't been lost. > > > > > > As I see it a number of items need to be addressed: > > > > > > 1) Did Buckminster Fuller advocate some form of a Global Decision Making > > > Body? I believe that he did. He made some statements about this in his > > > theories of Global Democracy. He had some theory that peoples reaction > > > to major news events could be radar imaged to show whether or not people > > > approved of... the Government. He also had some theory about creating a > > > wrist watch style voting machine. > > > > > > Now if this is true then somebody is definitely going to be monitoring > > > these electronic transactions. Presumably a government. And his theory > > > seems to say that this is going to be a global activity, which imputes > > > Global Government. > > > > > > This is going to give rise to all of the problems that I have presented. > > > We're going to have to deal with: > > > > > > 1) a power structure that is shaped like a pyramid. lots of > > > people on the bottom (so lets assume that they all have shelter, food, > > > edu, etc.), but they are still on the bottom, and relatively few at the > > > top. The top of the pyramid is the Global Gov. (United Nations Global > > > Decision Making Body, if you will). Above the pyramid is going to be > > > some form of supreme power, Law--which is backed by the power to take > > > human life. In all of this it is the ultimate power of Law which must be > > > preserved at all costs, so that it can continue in perpetuity--all of the > > > people in the pyramid, even to the top, are ultimately expendable--they > > > will infact die of natural causes long before the the entity that stands > > > above the pyramid will pass from the Earth. > > > > > > > > > 2) Second problem: since this electronic democracy is contingent > > > on the free flow of information we're going to have to deal with the > > > manipulation of thought by means of words--i.e., propaganda--linguistic > > > power structures. > > > > > > 3) Third problem: we're going to have to deal with the problem of > > > enslavement to capital. Fuller believed that currency was going to > > > become energy credits. There still is the problem of access which can be > > > denied. > > > > > > 4) There is the problem of ideology which says that there is > > > great opposition to Fuller's proposals in which case the GG will need to > > > employ the above three steps in order to preserve itself. > > > > > > > > > Question: To what extent do we ascribe to the solution presented in #4 > > > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > "To speak of (x) is to impute the existence of (x)." > > > > --Parmenides > > > > Kirby-- > > > > I'm going to have to repost this message as a response to your rebuttal. > > I don't think that this puzzle can be solved by "cut & paste" responses. > > You need to look at the problem as a whole, to separate the particulars > > from the generalizations. > > > > What I'm saying, and you seemed to agree with, is that the scenario I've > > described is already happen on the Nation-State level. I don't see how > > the fact that something eternal and all powerful standing above society > > will change in the least just because the government goes global. > > > > I'm asserting that Global Government is already coming into being and > > that Fuller's ideas as well as everyone on this planet, even the > > opposition--though they function on it differently, are aiding in the > > process. > > > > You're only response seems to be that Fuller never intended the world to > > have a "Global Decision Making Body." Which he most certainly did. In > > any event the Global Government is coming into being and I want to know > > whether or not you or Fuller have a solution to this problem. Even if > > Global Government never comes into being, you'll never solve this problem > > on the local level whithout doing away with centralized power structures > > like power plants. > > > > You need to remember, I didn't create this problem; it is, as I said, a > > problem which has haunted Humanity throught the ages. Plato tried to > > solve it with Facism. > > > > Fuller didn't address, didn't solve it, because he couldn't solve it. He > > could only dodge it with phantasms and vagueries. This can only show that > > there are limits to reason. Fuller acted as if he had some sort of > > "second sight" which allowed him to see beyond "the veil" and made > > asinine decrees "nature isn't using pi" How the hell would he know? > > > > > > --Ted > > > Let me put this a little differently, because you're still not seeing it > as comprehensively as I would like. > > suppose: > > two people sit down and make and agreement. > If this is an "enforacble agreement" it is backed by something. > > What is it backed by? Eventaully, if authority is denied at every step > of the way, it will find its power at the next level of the pyramid > (local, state, federal) until it reaches the top of the pyramid. At this > time in history there are many tops of the pyramid (one for each > country). If the authority at the top of the pyramid is violated then the > top of the pyramid will need to appeal to a higher power, something that > stands above the pyramid, ideology. The ideology that stands above the > pyramid will descend through the institutions within the pyramid to > destroy any individual, or group of individuals, on any level. Ideology can > even move the whole culture (structure) against other ideologies, i.e., war. > > At present there seems to be competeing ideologies, but the differences > are much fewer than there used to be. The thing which stands above > society here in America is consuming the thing that stands above society > in other places. The opposition that exists now cannot exist in the > world that you are envisioning, because there will still be wars--which > means there are competeing ideologies--which use the steps I've outlined > above in order to preserve themselves. > > Even if you overcome the competeing ideologies, i.e., your ideology > consumes all others you're still operating within the same pattern. Some > people are going to be born aberrations, the system will punish them > (ultimately by taking their life--you probably don't condone this, but > don't worry the institution will do it for you). > > It sounds to me as if you're actively fueling the process of Global > Ideology (this is going to require an institution of some sort, so that > it can preserve itself, by enforcing itself in this world--needs and > institution and well as a lot of people who are willing to die for > it--not hard to find.) > > If Fuller addressed this he did so by encouraging people to go global, > see ourselves as members of "Humanity" to have all the boarders go away > and so on. But, that only get rid of the National Monad, it combines Monads. > > The thing that stands above society is created by beliefs. Do you think > that you'll be able to escape this scenario by believing in something > else? (Something other than what created the society that we live in > now? Or some ideology that doesn't go global?) > > It looks to me like the people who ardently believe in Fuller's works > think that if part or all of his philosophy collapses the > will be an apocalypse, I wouldn't worry too much. > > --------------------- > Ted > Let me go back to a few examples: Suppose two people sit down and make an agreement. Something is created above and between those two people, something metaphysical called an agreement. Now if the agreement is one that is recognized by by a larger agreement recognized by the state as significant it is called an "enforceable agreement", this usually means a contract, but it could mean other things. Lets say I made an agreement with someone to check my e-mail once a week and to respond to their messages. It would not be recognized by the state as significant, ergo unenforcable by the state. This matter of agreement depends a great deal on what level it exists. Its been said that the internet is somewhat anarchistic--there's not government, but it is possible for me to break the law with a computer. There is an implicit agreement here. There is something which governs these transactions and it is enforcable. If I were to break the law (this metaphysical agreement) I would probably get a visit from the FCC, who would put some form of pressure on me in order to prevent me from doing it again. But you can see now that I've brought power down from the top against me. Whether or not enforcement measure is lethal is based on how threatening the violation is to Society, but the power to take life is always there. These agreement might be seen as a confocal of ellipes, ring after ring that completely circumscribes the smallest one , which is the individual the highest ring is a Monad, which circumscribes the entire culture. The real power that say the FCC has over me is derived from the highest power. I one rebuffs the FCC in the wrong way the might get a visit from the FBI or BATF. This greatly increases the possiblity of a person loosing his or her life. The power of the culture moves through the institutions against the "little individual". In order for an individual or group of individuals to cause a massive movement of institutional power against themselves, they must threaten the very existence of the Monad which governs the society. This usually happens from the outside and it usually precipitates a war. If it happens from within the culture it tends to cause massive brutal repessive actions, e.g., Rawanda, et al. These Monads grow out of agreements and ideologies, law and religion, primarily law in this culture in this time period. Occasionally these Monads are destroyed or change radically, usually when this happens there is a great loss of life, but recently we saw the Soviet Union collapse without loss of life, "a bloodless coup" we were told and we were lied to. All you have to do is look at what is happening in that part of the world right now, there is a great loss of life taking place there. In Babylon, it is said, that the linguistical structures moved against the Monad and destroyed it, because the ideology became confused. It disintegrated the Monad and the walls came crashing down. There are many other instances, the Roman Empire, the Decemberist Revolt, the French Revolution and many others, I'm sure, where Monads were either destroyed or changed radically. The way I see it Buckminster Fuller either said that these artifacts would change the world and make Monads obsolete, some sort of "natural process" that didn't need to be rationalized, analyzed, proven. After all it couldn't be proven unless it happened now could it. Or he was saying that there ought to be some form of "Spaceship Earth" Global Monad where everyone, indubitablely everyone, would ascribe to his vision, his Monad--a Christian Monad I might add. All this would take would be sheltering the world's people. It would not take persuation, he was above "changing the minds of others" they would change their own minds he would just give them the "opportunity" to consider other possibilities, to listen to him speak. In which he would drone on and on for hours causing people to "soften up" a little bit and giving them a new linguistical structure, new words, his own nomenclature in fact, something like an inspirational speaker. Rather mysterious even for a single man to know so much, nature's secrets. Though he negated that the same way he negated the fact that he was persuading people, "how little I know," he said. Then he would hit his audiance with the apocalyptic vision, "Utopia or Oblivion" there is no way out. God's way or no way. A cult of personality developed around him, or did it? "He shunned his follower's, refusing to become a guru." ----------------------------------------- Ted ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 17:45:08 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Angle is Everything In <199501022124.AA08365@xs1.xs4all.nl> Kirby Urner writes: >When we stick to pure classical space shuttle physics, we don't assume >perfect continuity, we just let our digits go out to a few significant figures >and then forget about it.. the mathematics assume perfect continuity. calculus is based on that. >> but still, unless *everything* (including movement, for example) is proven >>to be discontinuous - nowhere is there "flow"! - you're shooting yourself in >>the foot to stick to>a level of resolution involving whole numbers. >No one is suggesting using only whole numbers. You seem to go back >and forth between "rational" and "whole", even while you say you know >the difference (and I'm sure you do). rational numbers are the same sort of beast as whole numbers since they are countably infinite as well. rationals are of course made up of wholes. that's why i interchange them. >>only stare in starry-eyed wonder at the behavior of a flywheel, because >>with your rational accounting you can't figure out the first thing! >>somebody who's put on his smoky glasses and sees the situation in terms >>of smooth circles and infinitessimal tangents can "calculate rings >>around you", because he's chosen an appropriate level of resolution. >His appropriate level of resolutions is *still* using rational numbers. and that is somehow more true to nature. even if you're looking at a situation on a macro level, but still using rationals, you're being more authentic? if you multiply a couple of rationals, you get nasty denominators. that's why it's just as sensible to use pseudo-reals with an eye on your error factors. >>> Pi, in its rigorous mathematical >>>sense, has no physical correlate. >> >>i can't help it: neither does 2, since every object in nature is unique. >>it's only by limiting our conceptual level of resolution (abstracting >>out of nature) that we can count 2 sheep. > >Again, I don't see what uniqueness has to do with anything. You can >have two things that are different and still count them as two. that is, however, just as uncorrelated with reality as using pi. >>okay. let's see some useful calculations that make use of tetrahedral >>sizeless points or tet-of-negligible-height planes. thinking of them >>that way is perhaps only a distraction. >I think it's a distraction to think of points as "dimensionless" and planes >as "infinitely thin." I mentally relax when I don't have to posit entities >I've never experienced. I used to teach high school and elementary >school mathematics. I'd show this geometry film that would show >a dot and say "this is a representation of a point." Then the narrator >would go on to say "no one has ever seen a real point, and no one >ever will." What garbage! Who needs it? i guess i find it distracting to lose the purity of points and planes, and i wonder how it is possible to do practical calculations using tetrahedra for everything. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 21:25:49 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: The Great Dialog hows about if i jump in and try my hand at summarizing and adding a few cents worth of commentary to the interesting political discussion that has arisen between Kirby and Ted. my impression of the discussion is that it's all about what Fuller's ideas were with respect to globalization of economy, government, and culture. Kirby seems to think that it is possible to operate some forms of global infrastructure without necessarily requiring a global government, perhaps in the image of internet. Ted sees each government as somewhat pyramid-shaped, wars being the competition of the pyramids and the ideologies they represent resulting in the consumption of one pyramid by the other, or the melting/merging of the smaller into the larger which is essentially the same. the culmination of this process is one mega-pyramid, a rather hateful predicament. i think that a core discussion point is the global energy grid that Fuller proposed based on his connected map of the world. the issue is whether or not such a global energy infrastructure requires a global government. presumably Fuller in his idealism imagined a cooperative planet with everyone sufficiently enlightened so as to not demand control or commit sabotage on such things as a global energy grid. i consider the discussion to revolve around the issue of centralization and to what degree it can be accomplished given the nature of the human residents of our spinning spaceship. the great difficulty with centralization as organizing principle is the fact that in almost every manifestation it is inherently more vulnerable to corruption and sabotage. taking a global energy grid as an example, to span the planet and achieve its goals it will inevitably contain some "thin" linkages (weak links) that are easily sabotaged. also, if transfers of energy from one location to another are to be made it will involve a transfer of financial resources as well - and as a result there will come haves and have-nots and power struggles similar to those we've known in the oil-rich countries all our lives. the alternative is a trade-free system which inevitably requires enforcement that will (in view of history) end in oppression. i think that we can safely conclude that there is a systemic pitfall in any centralization of energy production and transport, and that the only way to achieve some degree of freedom is to sever one's dependence on other people's centralized energy. our domes should not be wired - they should be shingled with solar cells and there should be an octet-truss tower or two with efficient windmills around the place. about the UN, i'm convinced that all but the most naive among us are aware that it currently represents the world's powers-that-be much more than it can be said to represent the interests of the inhabitants of our planet in general. witness the powers of veto and above all how they have been used! having not read Fuller's words about the UN i can't say much, except that if he saw it as the planet approaching an ideal situation he didn't get out much. i'm afraid i'm also a died-in-the-wool cynic when it comes to any method whatsoever that is used to register the "mood of the people" in terms of geography or whatever. anytime such information becomes available, the drooling of the demographics experts begins as they sense the killing they can make from either free enterprise or the democratic government in return for sharing the golden information. any demographic information can and will be used against the people before it will be used for the people - because it's profitable. as i said, i haven't read Fuller's non-geometric works. this is probably because from what i've read in various comments here i've gathered that his ideas all end up being based on grand centralizations, and i've long ago abandoned any faith in the forms of organization that stretch more than a fairly short distance away from anarchy. i guess that even holistic visionaries should sometimes limit themselves to less than the entire spectrum of human endeavour. "he's not the messiah, he's a naughty naughty boy" (Life of Brian, Monty Python). -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 07:55:58 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Rick's DOME program Kirby Urner (pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM) wrote: > Chris -- > thanks for posting Rick Bono's DOME program in uuencoded form. > I know some subscribers will probably feel annoyed by all that mumbo > jumbo, which not everyone can convert -- but for those wanting > encouragement, I'm reporting that I had no problems decoding the > posts and running DOME.EXE on my computer. Excellent! Everyone can convert uuencoded mail. uudecode is available for every computer platform. The only difficulty is that you must manually combine the two postings into one before running uudecode. See the graphics FAQ for details on getting and using uuencode/uudecode for your platform "available on rtfm.mit.edu as pub/usenet/news.answers/graphics/faq". Unfortunately I forgot to install g++, so I haven't been able to compile it yet. Expect patches for running DOME on the Linux platform in a few days (unless of course it compiles without difficulty !! :) > Thanks Rick and Chris. > Any ideas about a simple "back end" that reads Rick's coordinates > from the generated ASCII file and plots a picture? Thanks for a project idea :) This would be easy to do with POV-Ray and awk or perl. Too bad I've got other projects to do too :( -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 08:11:53 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Campbell/Urner Debate Edward H Campbell (beth@SELWAY.UMT.EDU) wrote: > Apparently this group will not allow me to subject Fuller's work to > critical analysis. > I attempting to construct a carefully reasoned analysis of Buckminster > Fuller's "world view". I'm finding my essays hacked apart with "cut and > paste" commands to the point which could be called nothing less than > revisionist. If one cannot complete their own essay that coherantly > responds to my own, then don't bother to write to me because your just > wasting my time. > Don't simulate an interjection by responding to my argument line by line. > Write your own essay in respone. I'm perfectly capable of comparing the > two. Your idea is interesting, but it is not in the discussion-oriented USENET tradition :) Personally I like discussion --- though it clearly goes on for too long sometimes. If everyone would remember that everything posted here goes into permanent archives which one day *will* find its way into CD-ROM distributions, maybe people would plan their debates more carefully and cleverly. Overall, I'm impressed with the maturity of the debates here (even if they get ``mushy'' after a few days of back-and-forth). BTW, thanks for getting us back to the topic of Fuller's world view. For awhile there I thought this was a Synergetics/Domes only forum :) > Please note I expect well reasoned and cafully crafted respones. > --Ted -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 08:31:42 -0500 Reply-To: Rjbono Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rjbono Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Rick's DOME program Kirby, The DXF file generated by dome can be used to import the chord data into many CAD & paint packages. There are likely many shareware programs available to do this. Most of the programs I deal with are MS-DOS & Windows based. I'll do a search in some of the boards and see what I can find. I've heard of a windows program that can convert DXF to GIF though I think a true CAD package would be more useful as the symmetry triangle can be rotated to produce full spheres. Have fun! Rick "Geodesic rotations are twisted" Bono ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 08:38:44 -0500 Reply-To: Rjbono Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rjbono Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Rick's DOME program >Unfortunately I forgot to install g++, so I haven't been able to compile >it yet. Expect patches for running DOME on the Linux platform in a few >days (unless of course it compiles without difficulty !! :) As far as porting goes, I would expect the following problems: clrscr() statements are probably not supported. Removing them will produce a cluttered but useable interface. I would suggest replacing them with whatever your compiler supports. Math functions. The trig & pow functions used are from the borland C++ complier. Pow is particular may not be portable. huge keyword. The memory allocation routine uses huge pointers to deal with MS-DOS memory models. This keyword can likely be removed on machines running on Linux, Unix etc as I believe they run on a flat memory model. Most everthing else should run without difficulty. BTW, I have just installed LINUX (now that Santa brought me a new hard drive). I will try and port the code and see what difficulties I find. I'll let you know what I find. Rick "Trying to keep portable" Bono ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:20:24 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Stewart Brand's Criticism >> It certainly seems based on Brand's fairly limited text that he >> is talking about things done in the 70s more than the relatively >> long-established companies, such as Natural Spaces. This is sad, >> as he is a powerful voice and his statements, if not pertaining >> to domes-with-the-bugs-worked-out are bound to be misleading >> and detrimental. >> Perhaps this group should prepare a letter to send Mr. Brand. And maybe send a cc: to the folks at Edupage. Does anyone else subscribe to the Edupage digest? That's where I first heard of Brand's book -- there was a blurb in the most recent Edupage about it under the title WHATEVER HAPPENED TO GEODESIC DOMES? where Brand's quoted as saying something like "they were the most ill-conceived but well-meant things in architecture" or something. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:21:16 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Subject: Re: More Campbell/Urner dialog ``And finally there is the worst idea of all, a belief common to the benighted people in underdeveloped areas everywhere from the Bosnian hills to Miami University: that nationhood is a zero-sum business. The thing that makes Croatia rich makes Serbia poor. But Japan is powerful without natural resources. Singapore is important without physical territoy. And Luxembourg wields enormous influence and barely has people. Modern nations do not triumph by conquering territory or dominating strangers. War doesn't work anymore. Rape and slaughter may get Serbia on the evening news, but, from the point of view of becoming major players upon the international stage, Serbs would be better off selling Yugos.'' -- from _All the Trouble in the World_ by P.J. O'Rourke ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 12:14:05 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Ha! I'm not alone! Hello, All-- I wanted to post a formal introduction to the list; I just discovered it last night, and you wouldn't believe my delight! I first heard of Fuller maybe three years ago, just that he was "some scientist." My first real introduction to his work came only a year and a half ago, and I've been obsessed ever since. I'd been toying with the idea of starting a Usenet group for synergetics talk, but found this list instead. Incidentally, the first posts I saw were the ones about the GNU Dome software, which *really* freaked me out -- I'm very much a GNU person, and the latest issue of my zine was a sort of technology rant, listing people like GNU, the FSF and LFPF and the works of Fuller as major sources of relevant info. It made me wonder what to expect next -- people quoting Hunter Thompson and Ted Nelson in their .sigs, maybe. I do have two introductory questions. First, is there a faq, and second, is this list archived anywhere? Michael Stutz Oh, here's that blurb that appeared in Edupage and Innovation: WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO GEODESIC DOMES? In his new book "How Buildings Learn: What Happens After They're Built," Stewart Brand, the founder of the Whole Earth Catalog, admits that geodesic domes, which the Whole Earth Catalog had strenuously promoted, was one of the most technically unworkable (though well-intentioned) fads ever to catch the attention of housing designers. (Utne Reader Jan.-Feb.'95, p.119) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 09:40:37 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Campbell/Urner Debate >Apparently this group will not allow me to subject Fuller's work to >critical analysis. > >I attempting to construct a carefully reasoned analysis of Buckminster >Fuller's "world view". I'm finding my essays hacked apart with "cut and >paste" commands to the point which could be called nothing less than >revisionist. If one cannot complete their own essay that coherantly >responds to my own, then don't bother to write to me because your just >wasting my time. > >Don't simulate an interjection by responding to my argument line by line. >Write your own essay in respone. I'm perfectly capable of comparing the >two. > >------------------------------- > >Ted Step 1: You post your essay. We all read it (if we choose to), unhacked, unabridged. You may not see your whole essay echoed back in that form because the default listserver setting is to not send posts back to the people who posted them. Rest assured, your complete postings are being posted. If you have a newreader, you can confirm this by going to alt.bitnet.geodesic, which echoes this list server. Step 2: Anyone who wants to reply to something of yours (or anyone's) can conveniently hit the reply button. This quotes your (or anyone's) entire posting. Rather than quote your entire essay back to you, which we have already seen in full, I excerpt pieces I want to respond to, deleting other parts. Makes it easier for others to follow -- they've also seen your complete unabridged post. This technique is nothing strange or unusual. It is the law (rule, norm) on the internet. :-) In Sum: Scholarly debate has used quote and response techniques forever. This is the format email lists and newsgroups support. Nothing going on here is any different from elsewhere in usenet or on other listservers. You are not be singled out for special treatment by a bunch of rabid Fullerites. You are simply using the internet and your posts are getting treated the way internet posts get treated. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:31:43 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Angle is Everything >In <199501022124.AA08365@xs1.xs4all.nl> Kirby Urner writes: > >>When we stick to pure classical space shuttle physics, we don't assume >>perfect continuity, we just let our digits go out to a few significant figures >>and then forget about it.. > >the mathematics assume perfect continuity. calculus is based on that. > Yes, the mathematics require continuity to assure differentiability. But the mathematics do not require continuity in reality, only in the mathematics. E.g. you can use calculus to compute the approximate surface area of things you know aren't continuous, like porous plastic. The real thing that you're using the calculus to model can be continuous or not -- it doesn't necessarily matter -- which is my point. The calculus makes no philosophical assumptions about the quantum level or the ultimate discontinuity of matter or anything. That's physics, or even worse, engineering, which mathematicians tend to see as impure. >rational numbers are the same sort of beast as whole numbers >since they are countably infinite as well. rationals are of course >made up of wholes. that's why i interchange them. Well, OK, but keep in mind you can define irrationals as non-terminating sums of rationals. You seemed to imply that you couldn't use numbers like 0.94498123 and still be doing synergetics. But synergetics is full of such numbers. Sorry if I missed your point. Neither of us has yet discussed Complex Numbers (can of worms opens, worms begin crawling in vectorial trajectories in omnidirections) -- Fuller doesn't use those at all, yet I think we'd all agree you can't get past freshman physics (or get into fractals in a serious way) without training in the use of complex numbers. Does nature use complex numbers? Our models of nature certainly do. My initial response is to go back to the computer, where all our fancy symbolry gets crunched into binary flows and CPU flip flops. Complex, irrational, rational -- whatever, it's all just bits, with circuitry for for combining them in various ways. Our symbolry is supposed to help us understand what nature is doing, and a good model generates verifiable predictions (e.g. where jupiter will be on Dec 21, 0200 GMT as seen from Cairo). Looking at the computer chip, I see a microcosm, programmed by humans, which is somehow an analog, a map, of phenomena under study. At this chip level, irrational, complex, rational, pi, e, log, cos, sin are all just bit flows and boolean gateways. We start to not see the distinctions, just the dynamics. A chip is a natural phenomenon. Somehow, going from the computer screen, where the fancy symbols and models are displayed, to the circuitry, I think we loose a lot of the theoretic "infinities" (e.g. pi has infinite digits). We end up with discrete binary values and all "numbers" become the same kind of phenomenon. I feel "closer to nature" thinking about a silicon chip (why do I hear groans). >>I think it's a distraction to think of points as "dimensionless" and planes >>as "infinitely thin." I mentally relax when I don't have to posit entities >>I've never experienced. I used to teach high school and elementary >>school mathematics. I'd show this geometry film that would show >>a dot and say "this is a representation of a point." Then the narrator >>would go on to say "no one has ever seen a real point, and no one >>ever will." What garbage! Who needs it? > >i guess i find it distracting to lose the purity of points and >planes, and i wonder how it is possible to do practical calculations >using tetrahedra for everything. > You know, I'm not sure it makes much practical difference if you want to think about pure points of a dimensionless character, while I think of points as having volume, the simplest polyhedral volume being a tetrahedron. We would both stand on the beach (ala the Greeks) and do geometry the same way, tracing circles in the sand with sticks, pointing to the stars, scribbling symbols on paper (when we have a chance). To abandon the Euclidean Definition of a Point as a dimensionless object (an oxymoron?), of Planes as infinitely thin, is not to throw out the whole superstructure of sine, cos, Pythagorean theorem etc. etc. In fact, I think much of this discussion is about how one sees, changes in perception, which have an aesthetic dimension, but have negligible impact on how one uses a computer. On the other hand, building up a hierarchy of polyhedra from A and B quanta of volume 1/24 to get rational (and whole number) volumes for polyhedra which grade schoolers learn to organize according to a different conceptual schema, would have a significant curriculum impact, were it to be adopted more widely. More kids would be building models and talking about sphere packing at age 10 than now. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:06:36 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Consoletti Subject: Re: Global energy grid In-Reply-To: <9501010033.AA24838@mx4.u.washington.edu> Ted There are an interesting array of proposals mentioned In " Science Order And Creativity" by David Bohm And Peat Published by Bantam The essential message of the book is to look at many views,theories,hypothesis with an open an inquiring mind. This is where I am probing these days. all the best nicku ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:08:37 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange [ 9 [ 150] Edward H Campbell >> > I'm going to have to repost this message as a response to your rebuttal. >> > I don't think that this puzzle can be solved by "cut & paste" responses. >> > You need to look at the problem as a whole, to separate the particulars >> > from the generalizations. Actually, I don't see my interpolations entirely along the lines of "a rebuttal." I've also been using your posts as a vehicle for sharing my own ideas about stuff, using your paragraphs as useful jumping off points. Others do this with my posts. Since you are not into following the internet tradition, I'll respect your wishes and stop responding to your posts in cut and paste fashion. I doubt I'll be writing any long essays about the emerging global government either -- I don't see it happening and the subject doesn't interest me much, nor does the topic have much to do with Fuller, IMHO. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 14:10:56 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "HERBERT D. KING" <75672.1174@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: incense 20 sticks per pack $1. X-To: mech-l@utarlvm1.uta.edu the best incense 20 sticks per pack $1. minimum purchase 5 packs. rose, opium, black love, nag champa, cinnamon, vanilla, patchoul, sandalwood, blue nile, egyptian musk, coconut, rain. free incense holder with 12 packs. add $3, for shipping. ca residents add 8.25% sales tax. send check or money order to cynthia wiley, po box 91098, los angeles, ca 90009-1098 int'l orders send $6. for shipping ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:37:36 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: More Campbell/Urner dialog >``And finally there is the worst idea of all, a belief common to the benighted >people in underdeveloped areas everywhere from the Bosnian hills to Miami >University: that nationhood is a zero-sum business. The thing that makes >Croatia rich makes Serbia poor. But Japan is powerful without natural >resources. Singapore is important without physical territoy. And Luxembourg >wields enormous influence and barely has people. Modern nations do not triumph >by conquering territory or dominating strangers. War doesn't work anymore. >Rape and slaughter may get Serbia on the evening news, but, from the point of >view of becoming major players upon the international stage, Serbs would be >better off selling Yugos.'' > > -- from _All the Trouble in the World_ > by P.J. O'Rourke > Nice quote. I think Grunch of Giants points this out by equating capital with metaphysical know-how. In this day and age, the big assets are manufacturing methods and processes involving subvisible chemical processes. The days when land=power are over. My model is to suggest we conceptually separate cultural curricula (traditions, schools, arts, literature) from the clap trap of nation-state ideology, thereby allowing all traditions (curricula) to "go global" ala web servers and other cyberspace interface devices, as well us via physical plant campus centers (cultural centers, universities, communities, neighborhoods, commercial enterprises) etc. Like corporations, nations will have a look more like networks of dots with "governmental infrastructures" (not one, but many, developed by different cultures in different languages) interconnecting them, and with concentrations in certain geographic areas. Multimedia (means "all media, however mixed") will continue to serve as a vehicle for propagating cultural values and belief systems. In the mean time, many of us will be looking at Dymaxion Map displays whereon no nations are displayed as 2D jigsaw puzzle pieces. Others will continue to see nations -- and we will have passports and customs check points for some time to come, maybe forever if people feel insecure about giving them up (we'll at least need to keep the "substance control" aspect of customs -- keeping certain nasty bugs from messing up agriculture -- sea and air ports being examples of where such checking will normally need to occur). Today, with such disparate living standards as we have now, people still want to "fence in" the poor neighborhoods, using visa and quota restrictions to pen people in. Nation-states serve a "caging" function, preventing their citizens from getting away to greener pastures, or walling people out, like castle fortifications. I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to this, but imagining a world of networked nations without barbed wire barriers is still part of the vision. I'm not saying I want to force others to see the world according to the Dymaxion Map nationless model (photographs of earth from space are also nationless looking). Nations are very believable and it'd be silly of me to stand on a street corner with a sign saying "Imagine there's no countries, it's easy if you try" (although a T-shirt with that John Lennon quote under a Dymaxion might be a nice inventory item for BFI to sell). I mentioned looking at Palestine and Israel as cyberspace dots. Then I went out on the web in search of some Israeli dots. I found some nifty pages: Jerusalem home page: Israeli web sites (shown as dots on a map): I don't think Palestine has a web server yet. Should. Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:42:05 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: More Campbell/Urner dialog RE: all governments (not just one) "going global": Sorry, that last post got away from me before I got back from checking my bookmarks file.... Blanks now filled in. Jerusalem home page: http://shum.cc.huji.ac.il/jeru/jerusalem.html Israeli web sites (shown as dots on a map): http://shum.cc.huji.ac.il/israel_sens.html Kirby ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:45:57 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Consoletti Subject: Re: Campbell v. Urner: An Exchange [ 9 [ 150] Edward H Campbell In-Reply-To: <9501040717.AA10712@mx5.u.washington.edu> Ted I attended the World Games In 1977 in Philadelphia An array of views from thinkers to doers made presentations " What in the world is happening in the world" Russil Ackoff was there his most recent book "The Democratic Corporation": A radical Prescription In short the contention is that people can come together and make a world that is desirable; no doubt no easy undertaken, and I'll finish in saying it was very well thought out on Fullersand World Game Staffs part to use Ackoff's planning scheme with whatever coherent thinking emerges " the whats next" the beyond that humanities wisdom accrues later nicku On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Edward H Campbell wro te: > On Mon, 2 Jan 1995, Edward H Campbell wrote: > > > > > A number of my questions have not been answered in this exchange,I just > > > > want to write this to make sure that the thread hasn't been lost. > > > > > > > > As I see it a number of items need to be addressed: > > > > > > > > 1) Did Buckminster Fuller advocate some form of a Global Decision Making > > > > Body? I believe that he did. He made some statements about this in his > > > > theories of Global Democracy. He had some theory that peoples reaction > > > > to major news events could be radar imaged to show whether or not people > > > > approved of... the Government. He also had some theory about creating a > > > > wrist watch style voting machine. > > > > > > > > Now if this is true then somebody is definitely going to be monitoring > > > > these electronic transactions. Presumably a government. And his theory > > > > seems to say that this is going to be a global activity, which imputes > > > > Global Government. > > > > > > > > This is going to give rise to all of the problems that I have presented. > > > > We're going to have to deal with: > > > > > > > > 1) a power structure that is shaped like a pyramid. lots of > > > > people on the bottom (so lets assume that they all have shelter, food, > > > > edu, etc.), but they are still on the bottom, and relatively few at the > > > > top. The top of the pyramid is the Global Gov. (United Nations Global > > > > Decision Making Body, if you will). Above the pyramid is going to be > > > > some form of supreme power, Law--which is backed by the power to take > > > > human life. In all of this it is the ultimate power of Law which must b e > > > > preserved at all costs, so that it can continue in perpetuity--all of th e > > > > people in the pyramid, even to the top, are ultimately expendable--they > > > > will infact die of natural causes long before the the entity that stands > > > > above the pyramid will pass from the Earth. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Second problem: since this electronic democracy is contingent > > > > on the free flow of information we're going to have to deal with the > > > > manipulation of thought by means of words--i.e., propaganda--linguistic > > > > power structures. > > > > > > > > 3) Third problem: we're going to have to deal with the problem o f > > > > enslavement to capital. Fuller believed that currency was going to > > > > become energy credits. There still is the problem of access which can b e > > > > denied. > > > > > > > > 4) There is the problem of ideology which says that there is > > > > great opposition to Fuller's proposals in which case the GG will need to > > > > employ the above three steps in order to preserve itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Question: To what extent do we ascribe to the solution presented in #4 > > > > > > > > > > > > Ted > > > > > > > "To speak of (x) is to impute the existence of (x)." > > > > > > --Parmenides > > > > > > Kirby-- > > > > > > I'm going to have to repost this message as a response to your rebuttal. > > > I don't think that this puzzle can be solved by "cut & paste" responses. > > > You need to look at the problem as a whole, to separate the particulars > > > from the generalizations. > > > > > > What I'm saying, and you seemed to agree with, is that the scenario I've > > > described is already happen on the Nation-State level. I don't see how > > > the fact that something eternal and all powerful standing above society > > > will change in the least just because the government goes global. > > > > > > I'm asserting that Global Government is already coming into being and > > > that Fuller's ideas as well as everyone on this planet, even the > > > opposition--though they function on it differently, are aiding in the > > > process. > > > > > > You're only response seems to be that Fuller never intended the world to > > > have a "Global Decision Making Body." Which he most certainly did. In > > > any event the Global Government is coming into being and I want to know > > > whether or not you or Fuller have a solution to this problem. Even if > > > Global Government never comes into being, you'll never solve this problem > > > on the local level whithout doing away with centralized power structures > > > like power plants. > > > > > > You need to remember, I didn't create this problem; it is, as I said, a > > > problem which has haunted Humanity throught the ages. Plato tried to > > > solve it with Facism. > > > > > > Fuller didn't address, didn't solve it, because he couldn't solve it. He > > > could only dodge it with phantasms and vagueries. This can only show that > > > there are limits to reason. Fuller acted as if he had some sort of > > > "second sight" which allowed him to see beyond "the veil" and made > > > asinine decrees "nature isn't using pi" How the hell would he know? > > > > > > > > > --Ted > > > > > Let me put this a little differently, because you're still not seeing it > > as comprehensively as I would like. > > > > suppose: > > > > two people sit down and make and agreement. > > If this is an "enforacble agreement" it is backed by something. > > > > What is it backed by? Eventaully, if authority is denied at every step > > of the way, it will find its power at the next level of the pyramid > > (local, state, federal) until it reaches the top of the pyramid. At this > > time in history there are many tops of the pyramid (one for each > > country). If the authority at the top of the pyramid is violated then the > > top of the pyramid will need to appeal to a higher power, something that > > stands above the pyramid, ideology. The ideology that stands above the > > pyramid will descend through the institutions within the pyramid to > > destroy any individual, or group of individuals, on any level. Ideology can > > even move the whole culture (structure) against other ideologies, i.e., war. > > > > At present there seems to be competeing ideologies, but the differences > > are much fewer than there used to be. The thing which stands above > > society here in America is consuming the thing that stands above society > > in other places. The opposition that exists now cannot exist in the > > world that you are envisioning, because there will still be wars--which > > means there are competeing ideologies--which use the steps I've outlined > > above in order to preserve themselves. > > > > Even if you overcome the competeing ideologies, i.e., your ideology > > consumes all others you're still operating within the same pattern. Some > > people are going to be born aberrations, the system will punish them > > (ultimately by taking their life--you probably don't condone this, but > > don't worry the institution will do it for you). > > > > It sounds to me as if you're actively fueling the process of Global > > Ideology (this is going to require an institution of some sort, so that > > it can preserve itself, by enforcing itself in this world--needs and > > institution and well as a lot of people who are willing to die for > > it--not hard to find.) > > > > If Fuller addressed this he did so by encouraging people to go global, > > see ourselves as members of "Humanity" to have all the boarders go away > > and so on. But, that only get rid of the National Monad, it combines Monads. > > > > The thing that stands above society is created by beliefs. Do you think > > that you'll be able to escape this scenario by believing in something > > else? (Something other than what created the society that we live in > > now? Or some ideology that doesn't go global?) > > > > It looks to me like the people who ardently believe in Fuller's works > > think that if part or all of his philosophy collapses the > > will be an apocalypse, I wouldn't worry too much. > > > > --------------------- > > Ted > > > Let me go back to a few examples: > > Suppose two people sit down and make an agreement. Something is created > above and between those two people, something metaphysical called an > agreement. > > Now if the agreement is one that is recognized by by a larger agreement > recognized by the state as significant it is called an "enforceable > agreement", this usually means a contract, but it could mean other things. > > Lets say I made an agreement with someone to check my e-mail once a week > and to respond to their messages. It would not be recognized by the > state as significant, ergo unenforcable by the state. > > This matter of agreement depends a great deal on what level it exists. > Its been said that the internet is somewhat anarchistic--there's not > government, but it is possible for me to break the law with a computer. > There is an implicit agreement here. There is something which governs > these transactions and it is enforcable. > > If I were to break the law (this metaphysical agreement) I would probably > get a visit from the FCC, who would put some form of pressure on me in > order to prevent me from doing it again. > > But you can see now that I've brought power down from the top against > me. Whether or not enforcement measure is lethal is based on how > threatening the violation is to Society, but the power to take life is > always there. > > These agreement might be seen as a confocal of ellipes, ring after ring > that completely circumscribes the smallest one , which is the individual > the highest ring is a Monad, which circumscribes the entire culture. > The real power that say the FCC has over me is derived from the highest > power. I one rebuffs the FCC in the wrong way the might get a visit from > the FBI or BATF. This greatly increases the possiblity of a person > loosing his or her life. The power of the culture moves through the > institutions against the "little individual". > > In order for an individual or group of individuals to cause a massive > movement of institutional power against themselves, they must threaten > the very existence of the Monad which governs the society. This usually > happens from the outside and it usually precipitates a war. If it > happens from within the culture it tends to cause massive brutal > repessive actions, e.g., Rawanda, et al. > > These Monads grow out of agreements and ideologies, law and religion, > primarily law in this culture in this time period. > > Occasionally these Monads are destroyed or change radically, usually when > this happens there is a great loss of life, but recently we saw the > Soviet Union collapse without loss of life, "a bloodless coup" we were > told and we were lied to. All you have to do is look at what is > happening in that part of the world right now, there is a great loss of > life taking place there. > > In Babylon, it is said, that the linguistical structures moved against > the Monad and destroyed it, because the ideology became confused. It > disintegrated the Monad and the walls came crashing down. There are many > other instances, the Roman Empire, the Decemberist Revolt, the French > Revolution and many others, I'm sure, where Monads were either destroyed > or changed radically. > > The way I see it Buckminster Fuller either said that these artifacts > would change the world and make Monads obsolete, some sort of "natural > process" that didn't need to be rationalized, analyzed, proven. After all > it couldn't be proven unless it happened now could it. Or he was > saying that there ought to be some form of "Spaceship Earth" Global Monad > where everyone, indubitablely everyone, would ascribe to his vision, his > Monad--a Christian Monad I might add. All this would take would be > sheltering the world's people. It would not take persuation, he was > above "changing the minds of others" they would change their own minds he > would just give them the "opportunity" to consider other possibilities, > to listen to him speak. In which he would drone on and on for hours > causing people to "soften up" a little bit and giving them a new > linguistical structure, new words, his own nomenclature in fact, > something like an inspirational speaker. Rather mysterious even for a > single man to know so much, nature's secrets. Though he negated that the > same way he negated the fact that he was persuading people, "how little I > know," he said. > > Then he would hit his audiance with the apocalyptic vision, "Utopia or > Oblivion" there is no way out. God's way or no way. A cult of > personality developed around him, or did it? "He shunned his follower's, > refusing to become a guru." > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Ted > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 13:06:14 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: More Campbell/Urner dialog >> "KU" == Kirby Urner writes: > >KU> Political power structures have evolved in response to the >KU> question: how to deal with the problem of not nearly enough for >KU> everyone. Starting to have enough would be upsetting to the >KU> political status quo. > >This is not how I read "Grunch". Political power structures evolved >specifically to deal with maximizing the take by the one on horseback >from those on foot; I'd call this a perfectly normal "maximizing >function" intrinsic to proper brain functions ("get more with less"), >hence, there is no sickness to cure or status quo to upset --- when >invention makes an old world less profitable, the same maximizing >function will follow a new carrot. > I don't see your reading as all that different. Given the problem of not nearly enough for me (the guy on horseback) versus him (the pedestrian), I need a political power structure: a military that forcibly grabs theirs (them too, as slaves perhaps) to make theirs ours. But if I can use media to make them think they still have enough, and I deserve to have 100 times more than they do, and they'll even die in wars to protect my system of enslavement, so much the better. Turning it around, if we pedestrians are plagued by bullies on horseback, but they're not as bright as we are, maybe we can invent institutions that keep the bullies in check by cooperating amongst ourselves to create banking. The bullies will deposit their money in our ATMs and we can invest it, making back some of what they took from us. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: [question] Recently there have been numerous references to a company/organization called Natural Spaces. I would appreciate it if someone could post their address (either postal or e-mail) and/or phone number. TIA - I'll be listening ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 14:10:46 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Ha! I'm not alone! In-Reply-To: ; from "Michael Stutz" at Jan 4, 95 12:14 pm Michael Stutz writes: > > Hello, All-- > > I wanted to post a formal introduction to the list; I just discovered > it last night, and you wouldn't believe my delight! I first heard of > Fuller maybe three years ago, just that he was "some scientist." My > first real introduction to his work came only a year and a half ago, > and I've been obsessed ever since. I'd been toying with the idea of > starting a Usenet group for synergetics talk, but found this list > instead. Incidentally, the first posts I saw were the ones about the > GNU Dome software, which *really* freaked me out -- I'm very much a > GNU person, and the latest issue of my zine was a sort of technology > rant, listing people like GNU, the FSF and LFPF and the works of > Fuller as major sources of relevant info. It made me wonder what to > expect next -- people quoting Hunter Thompson and Ted Nelson in their > .sigs, maybe. > > I do have two introductory questions. First, is there a faq, and > second, is this list archived anywhere? > > > > Michael Stutz > > Oh, here's that blurb that appeared in Edupage and Innovation: > > WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO GEODESIC DOMES? > > In his new book "How Buildings Learn: What Happens After They're Built," > Stewart Brand, the founder of the Whole Earth Catalog, admits that geodesic > domes, which the Whole Earth Catalog had strenuously promoted, was one of > the most technically unworkable (though well-intentioned) fads ever to > catch the attention of housing designers. (Utne Reader Jan.-Feb.'95, p.119) > .- > Welcome aboard. Now that you're hooked on some of Fuller's ideas you're life will never be the same. Throw all your prior plans out the window--you're in a whole new world now. Read the info that the computer sent you when your subscription was confirmed. It has instructions for getting all the info that you mentioned. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 15:30:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Campbell/Urner Debate On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Kirby Urner wrote: > >Apparently this group will not allow me to subject Fuller's work to > >critical analysis. > > > >I attempting to construct a carefully reasoned analysis of Buckminster > >Fuller's "world view". I'm finding my essays hacked apart with "cut and > >paste" commands to the point which could be called nothing less than > >revisionist. If one cannot complete their own essay that coherantly > >responds to my own, then don't bother to write to me because your just > >wasting my time. > > > >Don't simulate an interjection by responding to my argument line by line. > >Write your own essay in respone. I'm perfectly capable of comparing the > >two. > > > >------------------------------- > > > >Ted > > Step 1: > > You post your essay. We all read it (if we choose to), unhacked, > unabridged. You may not see your whole essay echoed back in that > form because the default listserver setting is to not send posts back to > the people who posted them. Rest assured, your complete postings > are being posted. If you have a newreader, you can confirm this > by going to alt.bitnet.geodesic, which ec hoes this list server. > > Step 2: > > Anyone who wants to reply to something of yours (or anyone's) can > conveniently hit the reply button. This quotes your (or anyone's) > entire posting. Rather than quote your entire essay back to you, which > we have already seen in full, I excerpt pieces I want to respond to, > deleting other parts. Makes it easier for others to follow -- they've also se en > your complete unabridged post. This technique is nothing strange or > unusual. It is the law (rule, norm) on the internet. :-) > > In Sum: > > Scholarly debate has used quote and response techniques forever. > This is the format email lists and newsgroups support. Nothing going > on here is any different from elsewhere in usenet or on other listservers. > You are not be singled out for special treatment by a bunch of rabid > Fullerites. You are simply using the internet and your posts are getting > treated the way internet posts get treated. > > Kirby > You still don't seem to get the picture. You cutting up the and deleting the parts of it that you don't want to answer. You're distorting my statements to the point that I have to disclaim much of it when it is taken from the whole. Maybe you should take the time to look-up the word 'revisionism' and try to see how it applies here. I don't know how a third party can see a coherent argument when you've deleted the persons text. If you can't supply your own work in the form of an essay the way Mr. de jong did, then don't bother. In your essay you will either provide a sufficient reponse, or you will not. If you do not, then I will write something that states why I think you did not in the form of an expaned essay--the way I've been doing it. There is no need to interrupt an argument line by line. People have been publis hing essays that argue back and forth for a long time there is no reason why this should be different. You should notice that there is a big difference between quoting from someone and attempting to render their work incomprehensible by deleting essential passages. I'm not buying into that business anymore. All I can say is that if you do it again I'm going to sign-off from this listserve. ------------------------ Ted ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 14:43:05 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FIRST MOVE An observation: The world games of the early seventies concluded that no problem could be solved without solving the energy problem first. Question: In light of the above, shouldn't our first priority be to get as much renewable energy to as many people as possible as fast as possible? Opinion: It is futile to attempt to solve any other problems (food, housing, transportation, health, etc) until our global energy problem is well under control. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 18:00:36 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: FIRST MOVE On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Joe Moore wrote: > An observation: The world games of the early seventies concluded that no > problem could be solved without solving the energy problem first. > > Question: In light of the above, shouldn't our first priority be to get as > much renewable energy to as many people as possible as fast as possible? > > Opinion: It is futile to attempt to solve any other problems (food, housing, > transportation, health, etc) until our global energy problem is well under > control. > > Joe > > > -- > I tend to agree with this, I would just like to know at what point do you engage politics in the process of solving the energy problem. Fuller seemed to think we didn't have to engage the political institutions. I strongly disagree with Fuller on this. Ted ------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 18:39:16 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Campbell/Urner Debate Ted -- I'm sorry I hacked up your essay in the process of replying to them. I do not intend to do it again. Given your stipulations on how you need to be responded to, I won't be continuing with this dialog myself. Others may want to do it your way, and I'll read on with some interest. Again, I apologize for not replying in a way you felt had integrity. I hope you don't decide to unsubscribe in a huff, but you're certainly free to do that. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: More Campbell/Urner dialog Try telling "land is not equal to power" to a peasant in Costa Rica. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 20:07:16 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Rick's DOME program >Any ideas about a simple "back end" that reads Rick's coordinates >from the generated ASCII file and plots a picture? i've run DOME a few times and i don't get any response after it asks me for the frequency. (if i could see the output i'd be more sure but..) i think i've got a nice program for the purpose of viewing this type of stuff. it's tiny, so if it works, i'll uuencode it and post it as well. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Jan 1995 21:11:42 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: More Campbell/Urner dialog In <199501031551.AA27622@xs1.xs4all.nl> Edward H Campbell writes: >This implies the creation of a "one world society." By downplaying this >you're manipulating thought. People are entitled to their beliefs. Do >you think Israel ascribes to this "Fatherland" idea, because it doesn't. >Judaism is a matrilinear genealogy. Many people, including myself, >believe that Germany should continue to be punished for another 50 years, >per the terms of their surrender. Many others believe that a thousand >years of punishement would not be enough. How do plan on getting around >these kinds of feelings in the world? There are many people who are >willing to enforce them. Downplaying "multiculturalism" >is only going to work here in America. People have very different ways >of looking at the world, you can call them Zenophobic--fear of strangers, >or strange things, but these cultural roots run deep and they should. >Things are going to get much uglier when the "one world island in a one >world ocean" begins demanding very personal things from people, like duty >and loyalty. first of all, Ted, writing down your ideas with the intent to convince others that they are correct is also manipulating thought, if you want to use the term so loosely. we can write lies, or truth, or simply perpetuate our own illusions, but i think "manipulating thought" is an accusation that can be attached to propaganda and much advertising, but not to the process of explaining our views. you're out of line to make such a blanket accusation. second, Germany is not a devil that must be banished to the fires of hell for hundreds of years - it's just a society of people, most of whom are young enough to have learned from the mistakes of their greying parents and grandparents. there will always be a small minority of people there who subscribe to the racist eugenic ideals of the old national socialist mania that swept the country a half-century ago, but such a large proportion of the younger folks will have nothing to do with that kind of thinking. to say that you believe that "Germany" should be punished for another fifty years reveals a very embarrasing tendency to hateful generalization. Germany today seems quite American actually, in a lot of ways, except that in Germany they wouldn't DREAM of printing up tee-shirts like "we came, we saw, we Kicked Ass!" after having "punished" millions of Arabs. not these days. to call Schwarzkopf the father of the year, i mean really. the American culture these days *does* foster that kind of self-righteous sentiment, with mass media and the near third-world conditions that a segment of society is forced to live in. taking over countries is more subtle towards the end of the 20th century than it was halfway, and it's the stars and stripes that is at the forefront now. to the average american it all seems squeaky clean and christian. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 11:15:36 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Subject: Towards a Fuller understanding (was Re: Campbell/Urner Debate) From: David Buttrick Subject: Re: Campbell/Urner Debate > Let's see if we can talk more about Fuller and not our interpretations of > his theories. Let's talk about the fact of his theories. I don't know that this is the way to go at all. Fuller's theories were never meant to be static facts. Fuller himself wrote, in many different ways and books, that there simply are no statics -- everything, including his thoughts, is dynamic, fluctuating. To attempt to talk about the ``fact of his theories'' is deeply against his philosophy. However, if you've only been on this group/list a short time, then I think you're seeing a (probably temporary) shift in its focus. I haven't been on this group very long myself -- maybe a year -- but recently, things have been getting much more lively. This is mostly thanks to Gerald de Jong joining up and making noises, and most recently Ted Campbell. Up until a couple of months ago, GEODESIC mostly consisted of people popping up and asking FAQs: ``Where can I find this book by Fuller?'' ``What ever happened to that invention by Fuller?'' ``Wasn't Fuller really just a jerk who stole his inventions from other people?'' and, most commonly, ``Where can I find out about living in a dome?'' and ``Where can I get the address for Buckminster Fuller Institute?'' Sprinkled throughout these posts was the occasional post essentially restating one or another of Fuller's ideas, often less clearly than Fuller did originally, and sometimes simply riddled with references (Joe Moore's first few postings spring to mind, though he's since vindicated himself by proving an invaluable reference collector and all-around thinking individual. Also, he synthesized Fuller's ideas nicely, drawing as he did from many many sources, some quite obscure. Joe is a good example of this type of poster). Anyway, that was it. Maybe six messages a day, tops. But lately, the group/ list has accelerated quite a bit and the discussions have grown from ``Here's the address'' and ``I live in a dome, it's cool'' to real live philosophical debates. This give-and-take, action-reaction- resultant effect was what energized Fuller and his writings and work. His ``Ever-rethinking the Lord's Prayer'' is a fine example of Bucky at his best: daily reworking his thoughts and conceptions in light of new experiences. To think that just because Buckminster Fuller died his ideas should now be set in stone is a total negation of all of his thinking. ``Think for yourself'' he said, and he meant it -- especially where his work was concerned. Bucky should only be one source from which you synthesize your own conceptual world-view -- you should incorporate the whole of your experience. And that, when this group is at its best, is what we're doing. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 08:17:36 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: More Campbell/Urner dialog >Try telling "land is not equal to power" to a peasant in Costa Rica. >-- >Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom > > The power to control what's legal is what forces indigenous populations from the land of their forefathers -- because they have no "legal tenure." Millions are flocking to the cities, finding them dead ends. The promise of land reform is empty -- nothing to go home to, just a shack to squat in. Their access to higher living standards is contingent upon humanity's metaphysical resources -- our ability to come up with the right blue prints. As Fuller said, time and again, the alternative is organized religion: we'll give you hope post mortem. This is what Costa Rican peasants are being told today. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Certainly, if he talked about global power, he talked about global access >to knowledge too. I know that this has been covered soemwhat, and that I >am not where all of you are in your own relations ( I joined this group >late ). So don't take this message as anything but constructive >criticism. Let's see if we can talk more about Fuller and not our >interpretations of his theories. Let's talk about the fact of his theories. > Back a ways, as you may have read, I posted a bunch of direct quotes from Synergetics. I haven't quoted Grunch of Giants vis-a-vis the United Nations yet (I'm reluctant to go digging in the basement, where I've had to put most of my books -- even my favorite ones). But I should do that. Others, Joe, Chris, and Chris have also resorted to quoting Fuller's published work. If your call to talk about "the fact of his theories" can be translated into a call for more direct quotes, then you've given us a very tangible and doable suggestion. Might this be what you're hoping for, at least in part? Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: of Arabs. not these days. to call Schwarzkopf the father of the >year, i mean really. the American culture these days *does* foster >that kind of self-righteous sentiment, with mass media and the near >third-world conditions that a segment of society is forced to live in. >taking over countries is more subtle towards the end of the 20th >century than it was halfway, and it's the stars and stripes that >is at the forefront now. to the average american it all seems >squeaky clean and christian. > I liked this post Gerald. Fuller repeatedly referred to the USA as the most "cross-bred/breeding" -- he had hope for positive transformation fomenting in this region (among others) because, despite all the classism and racism, the opportunity exists to "go global" in ways that are reflective of many cultures and traditions -- which isn't to mitigate the destructiveness of subtle takeovers. USA symbolry is full of ambiguity. When I lived in Italy, my Roman History teacher taught me that a bundle of rods with a double-headed axe, carried by Roman police, was called a Facis, the root meaning of Facist. When I turn on C-SPAN and watch the Senate, I see such bundled rod symbols prominantly displayed on either side of the central podium. Washington DC has all these Roman imperial style buildings, and these modern federal "cubes" (like an ice tray turned over -- voila!) are not much more reassuring. But DC is full of redeeming architecture as well. And the USA is not synonymous with Washington DC either. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: (why do I hear groans). have you hugged your microprocessor today? the calculations are indeed done discretely, but the theory behind them requires continuity, as we've discussed. there is a certain distance at which a balloon seems smooth, and the math is a tidy description of this level of resolution. trying to describe the reality of the balloon in discrete quantities will be either purely philosophical or very inefficient. >In fact, I think much of this discussion is about how one sees, changes in >perception, which have an aesthetic dimension, but have negligible >impact on how one uses a computer. On the other hand, building up >a hierarchy of polyhedra from A and B quanta of volume 1/24 to get >rational (and whole number) volumes for polyhedra which grade >schoolers learn to organize according to a different conceptual schema, >would have a significant curriculum impact, were it to be adopted more >widely. More kids would be building models and talking about sphere >packing at age 10 than now. there you have my full agreement. it's important to have a deep understanding that the balloon is not really smooth or spherical when you go up close. it's important to see the earth as ball-like and finite. i'm certainly going to have my son play with these sorts of ideas before he has to dirty his hands with the inaccurate axioms that form the core of all that beautiful mathematics. i hope he doesn't want to be a florist. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 18:23:57 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: a little contradiction Kirby, you said: >metaphysical know-how. In this day and age, the big assets are manufacturing >methods and processes involving subvisible chemical processes. The days when >land=power are over. and in another message, this: >Actually, many countries are oligarchic. Rich families with lots of land >place their members in key government positions -- nepotism abounds. should i invest my millions in real estate or not? :) -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 12:56:29 -0500 Reply-To: Rjbono Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rjbono Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Rick's DOME program gerald, Sorry about the problems with running dome. Try using a small value for frequency say 3 or 4 and see if you get a reponse. The program should start displaying data after the frequency is entered. There may be a problem with the way your machine is trying to allocate memory. I would also suggest trying a "clean" boot (i.e. without any TSR's or other dirvers loaded. On DOS 6+ press F5 when Starting MS-DOS message appears othrwise try a boot disk). By all means let me know what you find. I haven't had the luxury of running the program on a broad spectrum of machines so there may well be hidden bugs. Rick "Doing what I can to help" Bono ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 13:39:43 -0500 Reply-To: Dome Fan Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dome Fan Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: dome homes One of the better companies making dome homes is Timberline Geodesics. They have an excellent connector and second floor system. You may want to call them and ask for their free brochure. I also read here that they can be contacted via e-mail. Timberline Geodeiscs 2015 Blake Street Berkeley, CA 94704 800-DOME-HOME - (800-366-3466) 510-849-4481 - FAX 510-849-3265 Tline Domes@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 14:32:24 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Angle is Everything >>The calculus makes no philosophical >>assumptions about the quantum level or the ultimate discontinuity of matter >>or anything. > >calculus is not philosophical, but it most certainly has continuity >as an axiom. But if ultimate reality turns out to be grainular at some quantum level, calculus will still be as useful as ever. Which means to me that calculus does not need continuity to be physical. >>Well, OK, but keep in mind you can define irrationals as non-terminating >>sums of rationals. You seemed to imply that you couldn't use numbers >>like 0.94498123 and still be doing synergetics. But synergetics is full of >>such numbers. Sorry if I missed your point. > >i think that the core difference between the points of view can >be illustrated by the following: > >synergetics: 0.94498123 > >not synergetics: 0.944981236 +/- 0.000000002 > >multiply two of these numbers and it will be synergetics that is the >one to present you with an illusionary accuracy. with it's rationals >it somehow assumes perfect accuracy! Thanks for the example. You keep surprising me with what you think the difference between our viewpoints is. I don't see either of the above as being more or less synergetic. Saying an answer is somewhere between two values, leaving the uncertainty unresolved, is not anti- synergetics is it? Surely our experience is replete with uncertainties and measures of limited accuracy. >>Neither of us has yet discussed Complex Numbers (can of worms opens, >>worms begin crawling in vectorial trajectories in omnidirections) -- >>Fuller doesn't use those at all, yet I think we'd all agree you can't get past >>freshman physics (or get into fractals in a serious way) without training in >>the use of complex numbers. Does nature use complex numbers? >>Our models of nature certainly do. > >i mentioned them a couple of times, i believe. Fuller doesn't use >complex numbers, but he also wouldn't be able to perform more than >the most basic calculations in practical physics. with synergetics >it's not easy to design an electric circuit. Hmmmm, perhaps you did mention them. The question for me is: did Fuller see synergetics as antithetical to programming with all these fancy quantities and operators, or was he painting with a broad brush, leaving lots of room for existing mathematics to thrive -- seems he had quarrels with some of the quasi-philosophical underpinnings, but maybe not the practical superstructure to the degree we might suppose. I need to dig up some quotes. >> I feel "closer to nature" thinking about a silicon chip >>(why do I hear groans). > >have you hugged your microprocessor today? A shocking suggestion! Bzzzzzp... >the calculations are indeed done discretely, but the theory behind >them requires continuity, as we've discussed. But when you actually number crunch an integral, suddenly your delta x values are discrete. One might counter that the *practice* behind these computations require that we don't take our theoretical assumptions too seriously. >there you have my full agreement. >i'm certainly going to have my son play with these sorts of ideas >before he has to dirty his hands with the inaccurate axioms that >form the core of all that beautiful mathematics. i hope he doesn't >want to be a florist. > Or a Fullerist? Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: democratic operating system -- or call it USA OS", you can > click on USA OS with your mouse and go to the White House > home page -- and sign the guest book if you like. > > INVITATION: Feel free to hack this essay to bits in any > email replies, in true internet fashion. My web page > original will remain intact. > ------------------------------------------------ Do you have any proof that this is a "natural evolutionary process?" Not many people have heard of General System Theory, how do you know it will replace Economics in the University System? Don't you regard your thesis as somewhat Marxist? Ed Applewhite said thast the Grunch of Giants was the most destructive thing to capitalism since Karl Marx. Don't you think you're thesis here says anything about world government? Politics? When you talk about what you saw in Rome, your beginning to see what I mean about cognitive structures. You carry these cognative structures with you wherever you go. Do you think that you have somehow escaped the Roman ideology which has persisted through time, 'prefigured' this culture? How do you know what the internet tradition is? Are you asserting some form law (culture)? Something absolute? --Ted --------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 23:00:42 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: Campbell/Urner Debate X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Edward H Campbell" at Jan 4, 95 00:08:15 am > > Apparently this group will not allow me to subject Fuller's work to > critical analysis. > > I attempting to construct a carefully reasoned analysis of Buckminster > Fuller's "world view". I'm finding my essays hacked apart with "cut and > paste" commands to the point which could be called nothing less than > revisionist. If one cannot complete their own essay that coherantly > responds to my own, then don't bother to write to me because your just > wasting my time. > > Don't simulate an interjection by responding to my argument line by line. > Write your own essay in respone. I'm perfectly capable of comparing the > two. > > ------------------------------- > > Ted > Ted-- Unfortunately, these mail lists and Internet are awkward and cumbersome media for discussions, particularly long and complex ones. That is why at Fuller Information Exchange BBS (affiliated with Critical Path AIDS Project BBS, in Philadelphia), we long ago adopted Magpie (whose author is Steve Manes) as our software. Magpie is the only software we know of that simulates real- time discussion. Magpie is a perfect message tree, and each branch of the tree is a discussion thread. There is no need to reiterate the previous message to which you are replying because they are displayed in order. To an observer, the discussion has the back and forth logic of a real-time discussion, and a keystroke or two will show you previous messages in the thread in logical order (you specify how far back). Any message can carry an attached file. We are upgrading to US Robotics Courier 28.8 kbps modems (eight phone lines) and in February we will be a full Internet host with World Wide Web and a full range of capabilities. Unfortunately, besides the NY and Chicago Boards of Education, our CPP and FIX BBSs are the only technical or specialized BBSs that use Magpie. We have 2.6 gigabytes of hard disk storage and will be able to archive Geodesic mailing list discussions, and add search capabilities. Our high-speed modems will enable us to transmit graphics with a minimum of line time. Anybody on this list should feel free to register online to the FIX BBS (215-463-7160, 8-N-1 full duplex). In February, we will be a local call to anyone on the Internet. --Kiyoshi Kuromiya Critical Path Project, Inc. 2062 Lombard St. Philadelphia, PA 19146 (215) 545-2212 24-hr hotline (215) 735-2762 Fax (215) 463-7160 BBS (800) 973-8084 Beeper ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 23:10:36 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: Artifacts of RBF X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Joe Moore" at Jan 3, 95 03:47:36 pm Ken-- I have a set of Artifacts of R. Buckminster Fuller, but am not interested in selling it. I do not think BFI has the set in their catalog, but you might contact the publisher, Garland Press, NY. The set was published posthumously in 1985 and it was quite expensive (I believe $600 for the four volumes). --Kiyoshi Kuromiya > > Ken G. Brown writes: > > > > I would like to obtain the 4 volume set 'Artifacts of R. Buckminster > > Fuller', new or used. Does anyone have them for sale or know where I could > > obtain them? Thx. > > > > Ken G. Brown (kbrown@atc.edmonton.ab.ca) > > .- > > > > Try the Buckminster Fuller Institute at BFI@aol.com. Please ask them to post > a list of materials that are available. If they don't want to post their > catalog themselves for some reason, could someone with a recent copy of their > catalog please post it to the Geodesic list? Thanks. > > > > -- > > JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 > 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 > CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Jan 1995 21:56:29 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Germany, USA In <199501051712.AA10694@xs1.xs4all.nl> Kirby Urner writes: >Fuller repeatedly referred to the USA as >the most "cross-bred/breeding" -- he had hope for positive transformation >fomenting in this region (among others) because, despite all the classism >and racism, the opportunity exists to "go global" in ways that are >reflective of many cultures and traditions -- which isn't to mitigate the >destructiveness of subtle takeovers. there's a lot of difference between different parts of the US. for every bit of racial harmony in San Francisco, there's a redneck carrying a shotgun down in Texas. despite the mass-media and governmental structure, it's a fairly diverse country. most folks here see america as a country with great expanses of beautiful "nature" with some friendly fat people on it. :) >USA symbolry is full of ambiguity. When I lived in Italy, my Roman History >teacher taught me that a bundle of rods with a double-headed axe, carried >by Roman police, was called a Facis, the root meaning of Facist. the eagle is a pretty clear symbol, isn't it? a threatening bird-of-prey. how about the occult pyramid-with-eye on the dollar bill? that symbol had a solid place in the symbolism of the Third Reich. i've always thought of the american flag as symbolizing the partially controlled world. the stars will eventually cover the stripes. maybe that's just me, though. > When I >turn on C-SPAN and watch the Senate, I see such bundled rod symbols >prominantly displayed on either side of the central podium. check out the bank symbols - often lions licking crowns. >But DC is full of redeeming architecture as well. And the USA is not >synonymous >with Washington DC either. strangely enough, our view (through the cyclops eye of CNN) of Washington doesn't reveal the 80% negro population. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 13:45:16 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Desovereignization? In <199501051712.AA10761@xs1.xs4all.nl> Kirby Urner writes: >Just look at EPCOT, (Disney's Experimental >Prototype Community of Tomorrow). Corporate pavilions >dominate Tomorrowland (the future). On the other side of >the artificial lake (the past), nation-state pavilions >come across as so many quaintly commercialized cultures. >The once proud nations have been reduced to so many >moneymaking theme park tourist attractions. Epcot is a physical manifestation of the American ideal of global corporate monoculture. >But know-how, humanity's competence as a metaphysical >entity, is also increasing exponentially, and today's >capitalism is centered around intellectual assets more >than physical ones. The ability to do more with less, to >'ephemeralize' our technologies to a point where humanity >is capable of providing itself with sustainably high >living standards, derived entirely from renewable energy >sources, is another consequence of our increasing >competence which Malthus never predicted. at the same time, with our expanding ability to control things like genes and create complex drugs we are doing progressively more daring things while blind to the possible consequences. we create superproductive chickens and cows and wheat and only later find that they are inherently more vulnerable to sickness and insect attack. humanity's godliness is only partial, yet we keep controlling more and understanding proportionately less. i have trouble with the "techno-fix" mentality that says that we just have to learn a bit more about how to control nature in order to ensure an exponentially rising standards of living. in fact, we've only achieved some improvements in the western world at the cost of having to rape and pillage Mother Earth. the question is: what kind of organizational structures will extinguish the earth-killer activities and feed the low-impact renewable sustainable activities. the rules of Malthus don't apply to us big-brained apes as well as they do to a Petri dish full of paramecia, but the rules that *do* apply to us are not pretty either! > When living >standards rise, as measured by kilowatts per capita for >example, birth rates are seen to fall. We have a chance >to get ahead of the population curve with new global >university lifestyle options, wherein the process of >'learning a living' is potentially productive, rewarding, >and life-long, for *all* the world's students (consider >yourself and your family enrolled). we're not smart enough to produce that many kilowatts of energy by renewable means. take a look at how we do it now in 99.5% of the cases - coal and nuclear. even large projects like Quebec's James Bay damming project is met with opposition from the environmentalists, becaue it essentially destroys huge expanses of earth's surface irreperably. everything for the humans and forget the other kritters! >If you want to work for the goliaths of the future, better >to have GST on your resume than a lot of worthless >economics. the current goliaths as well of those in the future appear from the outside to be "big players" in a free economy (the reality is most often quite different), but from the inside they are simply totalitarian-by-any-other-name. you're not exactly making my mouth water when you tell me how i can teach myself enough to be able to work for them. these goliaths eat people for lunch, and leave big black footprints on Mother Earth. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 10:06:56 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Angle is Everything In <199501052343.AA05388@xs1.xs4all.nl> Kirby Urner writes: >>calculus is not philosophical, but it most certainly has continuity >>as an axiom. >But if ultimate reality turns out to be grainular at some quantum level, >calculus will still be as useful as ever. Which means to me that calculus >does not need continuity to be physical. absolutely. axioms are just assumptions, but calculus lives in SmoothWorld, not in LumpyWorld. >>i think that the core difference between the points of view can >>be illustrated by the following: >> >>synergetics: 0.94498123 >> >>not synergetics: 0.944981236 +/- 0.000000002 >> >>multiply two of these numbers and it will be synergetics that is the >>one to present you with an illusionary accuracy. with it's rationals >>it somehow assumes perfect accuracy! >Thanks for the example. You keep surprising me with what you think >the difference between our viewpoints is. I don't see either of the >above as being more or less synergetic. Saying an answer is somewhere >between two values, leaving the uncertainty unresolved, is not anti- >synergetics is it? Surely our experience is replete with uncertainties >and measures of limited accuracy. put it this way: included in 3.141 +/- 0.001 is the number pi, which synergetics refuses to deal with. the range of numbers represented is smooth, and not peppered with holes like the rational numbers. you could, of course, see the interval as representing only the rationals between 3.140 and 3.142, but that would be second-guessing. when you allow the number system to have holes, you end up looking for intricate patterns in a nearly-smooth number line - and that delivers nothing but distraction (numerology) and confusion (tendency to ignore error values). ignoring the patterns is equivalent to assuming that the line has no holes (although perhaps in our digit-representations) and is therefore smooth. this is un-synergetic, un-dymaxion, or at the very least un-Bucky. >>i mentioned them a couple of times, i believe. Fuller doesn't use >>complex numbers, but he also wouldn't be able to perform more than >>the most basic calculations in practical physics. with synergetics >>it's not easy to design an electric circuit. >Hmmmm, perhaps you did mention them. The question for me is: >did Fuller see synergetics as antithetical to programming with all these >fancy quantities and operators, or was he painting with a broad brush, >leaving lots of room for existing mathematics to thrive -- seems he had >quarrels with some of the quasi-philosophical underpinnings, but maybe >not the practical superstructure to the degree we might suppose. I need >to dig up some quotes. i read a spot in Synergetics that said something about this type of accounting only complimenting other types of math (like calculus) and not overriding them. i wish i had Synergetics on my hard drive so that i could run a search. :) >>the calculations are indeed done discretely, but the theory behind >>them requires continuity, as we've discussed. >But when you actually number crunch an integral, suddenly >your delta x values are discrete. One might counter that the >*practice* behind these computations require that we don't take >our theoretical assumptions too seriously. the delta x values are discrete, but the lines joining them are assumed to be smooth curves and not chords. (chords work too but not nearly as well). so even the smartest numerical solution to an integral leans heavily on the assumption of smoothness. >>i'm certainly going to have my son ... i hope he doesn't >>want to be a florist. >Or a Fullerist? i'm afraid he'll grow up thinking that everything is made up of triangles. how can he help but stumble on a few of the models that litter the house? i might have a hard time to convince him that lots of cool math works on the assumption of smoothness. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 17:36:12 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: a little contradiction In <199501052243.OAA27388@desiree.teleport.com> pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) writes: >>Kirby, you said: >> >>>metaphysical know-how. In this day and age, the big assets are manufacturing >>>methods and processes involving subvisible chemical processes. The days when >>>land=power are over. >> >>and in another message, this: >> >>>Actually, many countries are oligarchic. Rich families with lots of land >>>place their members in key government positions -- nepotism abounds. >> >>should i invest my millions in real estate or not? :) >> >.. what's newer are nomadic business types who have no land, no office, just >etherware connections through their laptops to other nomads, choreographing >invisible bit streams to perform wonders. This seems to be the direction. >Fuller himself wrote about FINCAP (real estate based capitalism) evolving >into LAWCAP, evolving into ?????. "Ephemeralization" is the word he > applied to this trend. hate to be the one to tellya, Kirby, but these folks all have land. that's how they invest the money they make - they gain ownership over pieces of the planet, or they invest by buying stocks in companies that own land or buildings. it's a bit of an illusion to see things as being operating above the level of brute-force land or building ownership. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 13:33:03 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rob Pollock Subject: Inclusions Is anyone else getting sick of seeing the exact same stuff, over, and over and over and over in these discussion threads?~ ~ For those who include da** near the whole (or the whole da**) message when saying neato stuff like, yup, nope, you're wrong, or, IMHO even worse, an actual response(!) to a thread or two, you are needlessly wasting some precious resources (not just my employer's disk, BTW). Those who are following a particular thread, should be saving the relevant posts, anyway, so that a logical ordering can be made of what your arguing about, (or discussing). This is, of course, until we get Magpie'd!~ ~ I am in the habit of deleting lots of stuff, just because I notice the thread in the subject heading, as well as the person posting it, *just* because I know they're going to have about 1/8th new stuff or less, and all those d*mn ">"s. An example follows:~ ~ begin the surreal quote here ->"~ The thing that started us off was:~ >>> yup, I think therefore I am gonna say it here!~ ~ to which someone else replyed:~ >> nope~ ~ then somebody altogether different had the unmitigated gall to say:~ > anyways~ ~ here's my thought: blah blah blah.~ ~ " end surreal quote, type of stuff. Of course, you fully realize that each section of > or >> or >>> or (for crying out loud) >>>>'s each take up about 20 lines (and seems to be increasing, hence my incentive to rant and rave...), so the new thought (which is not *necessarily* just BS, BTW ), is probably not reaching a portion of your audience. The delete key can be a mighty tempting alternative to re-re-re-re-re-reading stuff! (This isn't a rap discussion list is it??? ;-) )~ ~ So, every once in a while I'll look into a thread, and *amn! - see that they are actually talking about something that is kinda interesting!~ ~ Just a message from a lurker~ ~ robs~ ~ rob@decisionsys.com~ ~ 'my opinions are my own, i think, so don't sue my boss!'~ ~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 11:36:53 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DESIGN SCIENCE John Warren, Look in the index of the following books under the following items for references to Fuller's Comprehensive Anticipatory Design Science: BOOK ENTRY 'Critical Path' "Design Science" 'Grunch of Giants' "Design Science" 'Ideas & Integrities' "Comprehensive Anticipatory Design Science" " " "Comprehensive Designer" " " "Comprehensive Man" " " "Design Process" " " "Designing" 'Utopia or Oblivion' Chapters 10 & 11 (no index!) -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 14:41:07 -0500 Reply-To: Rjbono Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rjbono Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: GNU Dome Update A problem has been found with the MS-DOS executable file included in dome.zip. This problem will likely prevent users without math coprocessors from running the program. I will post an update in FIX and the newsgroup within a day or two. Those having a borland C++ complier can recompile the code. The problem is not with the code but with the compiler settings I've used. BTW, I should be able to directly post the uuencoded version as I seem to have gotten around a problem I was having with my mailer. Rick "Compliers don't make mistakes, programmers do" Bono ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 20:46:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: a little contradiction Emerson once said "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". Emmanual Lasker, World Chess Champion for some 30 years wrote "In life we are all dufers." And Mr. Pascal himself said "Humble thyself, impotent reason". In _Forever Undecided_ by Raymond Smullyan, Kurt Godel's Second Incompleteness Theorem is discussed. It states that "any consistent mathematical system with enough power to do what is known as elementary arithmetic must suffer from the surprising limitation that it can never prove its own consistency!" This implies that all philosophies must carry on without knowing if they satisfy simple consistency! I also refer you mathematical philosophers to Morris Kline's _Mathematics: The Loss of certainty_. Although there is much effort (past and present to find _THE_ underpinnings of mathematics, all such efforts have failed. Perhaps there are several mathematics. From this perspective the question is not is synergetic mathematics _THE_ coordinate system of Universe, but rather is synergetics a valid mathematics. I think so. So maybe we should all be a bit more mystical -- after all history's best logicians and philosophers have failed to puzzle out the fundamentals of mathematics, even! In conclusion I'll paraphrase Pascal: Humble thyself with potent inconsistencies! -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 17:55:17 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: a little contradiction In-Reply-To: ; from "Chris Fearnley" at Jan 6, 95 8:46 pm IMHO, all math flows from geometry and not the other way around. Energy has some type of shape and therefore the basis of the universe is geometrical. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Jan 1995 20:45:06 MDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ken G. Brown" Organization: BEST Online Subject: Re: Artifacts & bfi In response to my requests to the Buckminster Fuller Institute at bfi@aol.com re: the availability of the 4 vol set 'Artifacts of R. Buckminster Fuller' and re: a request that they post a catalog of their available materials to the Geodesic list, I received the following: Response 1: >The Artifacts of R. Buckminster Fuller can be attained by calling Garland , >the publisher at 1-800-627-6273. They have gone down in price to $50 per >volume. Good Luck. >BFI Staff Response 2: >We realize the potential of the Internet getting Fuller's work out on the net >is one of our short term goals. We currently have formed a task force to >gather information and make suggestions as to how to best use the internet >medium. >Thanks for your interest. >Best, >Tony DeVarco >Executive Director ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 08:27:33 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Inclusions In <199501062016.AA22758@xs1.xs4all.nl> Rob Pollock writes : >Is anyone else getting sick of seeing the exact same stuff, over, and over and >over and over in these discussion threads?~ >~ >~ >I am in the habit of deleting lots of stuff, just because I notice the thread >in the subject heading, as well as the person posting it, *just* because I >know they're going to have about 1/8th new stuff or less, and all those d*mn >">"s. An example follows:~ >~ for someone so critical, you don't seem to be able to configure your own system well enough to remove the ~ from the end of every line. it's true that people quote too much on this list, though. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 12:28:56 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: a little contradiction In <9501062219.AA06761@sun4nl.NL.net> Chris Fearnley writes: >Emerson once said "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little >minds". Emmanual Lasker, World Chess Champion for some 30 years >wrote "In life we are all dufers." And Mr. Pascal himself said >"Humble thyself, impotent reason". >In _Forever Undecided_ by Raymond Smullyan, Kurt Godel's Second >Incompleteness Theorem is discussed. It states that "any consistent >mathematical system with enough power to do what is known as elementary >arithmetic must suffer from the surprising limitation that it can never >prove its own consistency!" This implies that all philosophies must >carry on without knowing if they satisfy simple consistency! am i to conclude that the revelation of two statements that seem to contradict each other is to be ignored? i doubt that even Kurt himself would advocate turning a blind eye to obvious contradiction. the Incompleteness Theorum is a proof that any sufficiently complex formal language contains "holes", but that's a far cry from saying that we may as well ignore things that don't appear to jive with each other. >I also refer you mathematical philosophers to Morris Kline's _Mathematics: >The Loss of certainty_. Although there is much effort (past and present >to find _THE_ underpinnings of mathematics, all such efforts have failed. >Perhaps there are several mathematics. From this perspective the question >is not is synergetic mathematics _THE_ coordinate system of Universe, but >rather is synergetics a valid mathematics. I think so. isn't it our friend RBF who indicates that he had the privelege of finding _THE_ coordinate system of Universe? >So maybe we should all be a bit more mystical -- after all history's >best logicians and philosophers have failed to puzzle out the fundamentals >of mathematics, even! "..but if you study the logistics and heuristics of the mystics you will find that their minds rarely move in a line so it's much more realistic to abandon such ballistics and resign to be trapped on a leaf in the vine" - Brian Eno, from the album "Before and After Science" >In conclusion I'll paraphrase Pascal: > Humble thyself with potent inconsistencies! translation: "smack thyself in the noggin with a brick, and see all!" -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Jan 1995 08:49:51 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Angle is Everything Aside to Gerald: sound of one forehead smacking (I sending it twice AGAIN). Darn. >included in 3.141 +/- 0.001 is the number pi, which synergetics refuses >to deal with. the range of numbers represented is smooth, and not >peppered with holes like the rational numbers. 3.141 +/- 0.001 tells me we have a margin of error starting at the third decimal point, which means introducing a number like 3.14159528 (still rational) would introduce a false sense of accuracy. Allowing a number line to have only x digits significance max is not second-guessing, it's taking seriously the fact that we can attach no meaning to more significant figures vis-a-vis a given application. The number of significant figures can usually be handled by a long integer or floating point number of finite number of bits x. >>>the calculations are indeed done discretely, but the theory behind >>>them requires continuity, as we've discussed. >> One might counter that the >>*practice* behind these computations require that we don't take >>our theoretical assumptions too seriously. >the delta x values are discrete, but the lines joining them are >assumed to be smooth curves and not chords. (chords work too but >not nearly as well). so even the smartest numerical solution to >an integral leans heavily on the assumption of smoothness. No matter what our theory says, when we compute an integral using finite increments in x (delta x), we get correspondingly descrete values of y (as a function of x). I go to the silicon, I see all the computations take place with a hardware constraint on the number of significant digits. I watch professors using pen and paper, none of them calculates with that billion-digit version of PI the Crays have spit out. I conclude: whatever the importance of smoothness in theory, number crunching is always with rational (terminated) numbers. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: > applied to this trend. > >hate to be the one to tellya, Kirby, but these folks all have land. >that's how they invest the money they make - they gain ownership over >pieces of the planet, or they invest by buying stocks in companies >that own land or buildings. it's a bit of an illusion to see things >as being operating above the level of brute-force land or building >ownership. > Of course, the profits may be invested in land, stocks, ownership of whatever. But the driving source of their wealth is know-how, metaphysical stuff, like computer software. Bill Gates has a lot of real estate properties, but real estate is not what made the guy a billionaire. This is my point, not that land is worthless but that the source of the power to own land is shifting from land itself to more metaphysical sources. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: most accurate map? GRUNCH OF GIANTS >From Grunch of Giants, New York: St. Martin's Press, 1983 Since the greater the radius the 3.14159 times greater the circumferential distance to be traveled... [xix] On February 1, 1982, the United States ambassador to the United Nations stated to the media that all the "United Nations now hate the U.S.A." What the hated is Grunch, but Grunch is able to deceive the world into blaming the very innocent people of the United States. [Pg. 36] The integrated world-techno-economic system purpose is in contradistinction to a union of 150 autonomously operating nation-states, as with the United Nations. [pg. 90] Planetary economics has now shifted from a physical-land-and-metals capitalism to a strictly metaphysical, omniplanetary, omnicosmic-wealth know-how capitalism. [pg. 78] SYNERGETICS >From Synergetics, New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 1975 203.06 Synergetics altogether forsakes axioms as "self-evident," premicroscope, superficial beliefs. It predicates all its relationship explorations on the most accurately and comprehensively statable observations regarding direct experiences... 220.11 What mathematicians have been calling abstraction is reality. When they are inadequate in their abstraction, then they are irrelevant to reality. The mathematicians feel that they can do anything they want with their abstraction because they don't relate it to reality. And, of course, they *can* really do anything they want with their abstractions, even though, like masturbation, it is irrelevant to the propagation of life. 488.00 Instead of starting with parts -- points, straight lines, and planes -- and then attempting to develop these inadequately definable parts into omnidirectional experience identities, we start with the whole system in which the initial "point" turned out to be self, which inherently embraced all of its parameters wrapped tightly in that initial underdeveloped, self-focused aspect of self and went on to self-develop through successively discovered relative awareness whereby the proof of totality and omni-integrity is not only always inherent, but all the rules of operational procedure are always totally observed. CONTRA BUCKY ...Aldersey-Williams takes us on some illuminating detours through the symmetry properties of polyhedra and the strange and recondite world of Buckminster Fuller the architect, many of whose meanderings her dismisses rightly, if irreverently, as exemplary pseudoscience. Philip Ball, "Carbon Capers" (Book Reviews), Nature (Vol 372, 8 Dec 1994), pg 514(review of The Most Beautiful Molecule: An Adventure in Chemistry by Hugh Aldersey-Williams, and Perfect Symmetry: The Accidental Discovery of a New Form of Carbon, by Jim Baggott) Mapping a sphere on a plane inevitably distorts shapes, distances or areas. Most maps try to preserv either true area relationships (equal area projections) or true angles and shapes (conformal projections), or to create a balance between the two. For this atlas, Feigenbaum created a new map projection, now known as Hammond's Optimal Conformal, which the publishers claim is "the most distortion-free conformal map possible and the most accurate projections that have ever been made." John May, "The World's Most Accurate Map", Wired (3.01: Jan 1995), pg 40 ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DANTES Far East Field Office Subject: Re: Germany, USA Desovereignization? Angle is Everything a little contradiction DESIGN SCIENCE Inclusions GNU Dome Update a little contradiction a little contradiction Artifacts & bfi Angle is Everything Desovereignization? Inclusions a little contradiction Germany, USA Relevant Quotes... Germany, USA X-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl, gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl, gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl, gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl, Rjbono Sorry, guys, but some one is still sending me messages months after I unsubscribed from this list. Some one must have added this address to their return address list. I'll contine to send one of these every week until I'm off the list. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 18:08:47 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: Artifacts & bfi In-Reply-To: from "Ken G. Brown" at Jan 6, 95 08:45:06 pm K. Brown-- Fuller Information Exchange (FIX BBS, 215-463-7160 8-N-1 full duplex) will be accessible in about a month on the Internet. We are now accessible as a BBS but will be an Internet host as of February. We are planning on establish ing a World Wide Web home page on Fuller to archive databases, etc. Currently we have 8 lines populated with 28.8 US Robotics modems and 2.6 gigabytes of storage. By the way, I have the 4 volume set, but an not willing to sell. The price is a bargain. Grab it. I think the set when first released cost $600. --Kiyoshi > > In response to my requests to the Buckminster Fuller Institute at > bfi@aol.com re: the availability of the 4 vol set 'Artifacts of R. > Buckminster Fuller' and re: a request that they post a catalog of their > available materials to the Geodesic list, I received the following: > > Response 1: > >The Artifacts of R. Buckminster Fuller can be attained by calling Garland > , > >the publisher at 1-800-627-6273. They have gone down in price to $50 per > >volume. Good Luck. > >BFI Staff > > Response 2: > >We realize the potential of the Internet getting Fuller's work out on the > net > >is one of our short term goals. We currently have formed a task force to > >gather information and make suggestions as to how to best use the internet > >medium. > >Thanks for your interest. > >Best, > >Tony DeVarco > >Executive Director > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 17:22:42 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Germany, USA >for those who see Germans as the devil, did you know that the >Fascist leadership in the late 30's took an example from the American >government in their mandatory sterilization policies? This is getting off topic vis-a-vis this list I suppose, but I find the information most interesting. Point me to some sources or tell me more if you feel like it. I know from researching at Princeton (alm mater) that anti-semitism was certainly not confined to German policy-makers. When things were getting ugly in Germany, and thousands of Jews applied for emigration privileges, the other nations, including Britain and the USA, were not throwing open their doors and putting down Welcome mats. To tie this to Fuller a little more, we're talking about a principal function of nation-states: to control our movements, to limit our freedoms, to pen us in and make us die in a cess-pool urban environment rather than gain the freedom to emigrate. USA universities are thronging with non-nationals because the student population is one of the few with a "legitimate" means to circulate in global university circuits. I want to open that up more, for more people. We're all life-long students in the global university, learning a living, doing work/study, and getting credits, exchangeable for goods and services (but often not as freely as cold cash). USA propaganda used to focus on how ugly it was in other countries where you couldn't just get in the car or hop on a plane and go, to whatever city or state you wanted to, without filing papers or getting permission from anyone. That really is how it is here, for non-paroled individuals, if your income is big enough to afford you with travel privileges (a big if). But the world as a whole is as "totalitarian" as US propaganda accused the Soviet Union of being: movement is strictly controlled, and the USA is as much an enforcer of that status quo as any other government. I'd like global networkers to raise more of a fuss about our inalienable right to move about the planet, to see the whole planet as the heritage of each and every individual. This is not about the right of one country to ignore the immigration policies of another, but about the right of each individual to ignore the immigration policies of sovereignties in general. Those nation-states were invented by our forefathers for whatever reasons. Now they're a pain in the butt. I stand for the USA ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I see nation-state freedom of movement control as contrary to those ideals. I see USA OS as standing for the freedom of the individual to move about the planet surface at will, as a birthright. >>Mystical symbolry reminds us that the hopes and dreams of a nation are not >>altogether bound up in land mass -- the metaphysical dominion provides a deep >>space back drop, against which the foreground 2D jigsaw puzzle of nations is >>played. > >and what if the symbols are symbols of conquest? Well, if the conquest is less focused on territory than on the metaphysical domain, then maybe they're less of a problem. Lots of advertising claiming "we're number one" is about conquest in terms of market share, but as a consumer I'm less threatened by the idea of governments competing in the metaphysical realm, where superior integrity or performance in the delivery of services might be what registers on the scoreboard. >>That's why I think USA OS could persist quasi-independently of its territorial >>ramifications > >of course. it's the *idea* that counts. that's why this idea must be >spread to south america and beyond. i suspect that USA OS has too many >bugs for it to be accepted as World OS. let's maintain a few different >ones, okay? By all means. I'm hyping USA OS as an example of what "going global" might look like vis-a-vis some existing momentum-endowed symbol-set (by momentum-endowed, I mean I don't think you can expect the Stars and Stripes, for example, to suddenly become meaningless -- has too much momentum behind it, like a bullet fired from a high powered gun -- but you can think about alternative trajectories). But my earlier posts were about how any/all traditions can dive into metaphysical space and "go global". I am *not* advocating that USA OS should become the World OS. No way. I'm not even looking for a World OS to emerge. I think if the existing traditions relinquish their grasp, to some extent, on their 2D manifestations, and go global in cyberspace, building huge, beautiful terabyte structures, which have real world service delivery and rule-making/enforcing powers (vis-a-vis world game players who willingly enroll), then no omnipotent global OS need ever emerge. We'll have an amalgam of cyberspace realities, all partially overlapping with perpetually renegotiated and revalued interrelationships. Computer science gives us a good metaphor to work with in this regard: the "virtual machine." From the point of view of an individual, the entire computer is at his disposal. She is a system operator, a sysop, with virtual tape machines, hard drives -- the main frame maps its topology to each user, meanwhile "virtualizing" their access so that, in reality, multiple users are really sharing the same hardware resources. It'll be complex, ungraspable by any one mind, and and information-rich beyond our wildest dreams -- kind of like it is already. Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Organization: Advanced Remote Sensing Subject: Spiral communities Hi, 'just subscribed. Interesting discussions. Did Fuller ever talk about spiral communities? Really though, imagine light rail systems in spiral neighborhoods. No driveways, just a place to get on board. One side of your house is your automated delivery system, and personal transporter all in one. The other side is a sustainable raised bed garden system, and orchard?. Every function computer controlled. Want something from the store? ...http://www.grocer.com/... you get the idea. I also wonder why we can't mass produce large, 1 piece fiberglass domes. Just mass produce them, and haul them to the site...? Marc Austin "I propose...to get rid of gridlock, you've gotta "get rid of the grid." Marc Austin 1-8-95 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 22:59:56 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Adam Eberbach Organization: Comp Sci, RMIT, Melbourne, Australia Subject: FAQ/FTP locations? I'm sure the request for the FAQ is a FAQ, but I don't know much about listserv and how it works, and I haven't found anything via the normal methods. Pointers to ftp sites containing Fuller/Geodesics/Architecture information, and a Geodesic or Fuller FAQ would be appreciated. -- Adam Eberbach, Computer Science graduate, RMIT. adam@arcadia.cs.rmit.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Jan 1995 19:16:09 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Relevant Quotes... In <199501080250.AA16517@xs1.xs4all.nl> Kirby Urner writes: >[from Grunch] >Planetary economics has now shifted from a physical-land-and-metals capitalism >to a strictly metaphysical, omniplanetary, omnicosmic-wealth know-how >capitalism. [pg. 78] it's coincidence that the united states had to fight a war and kill many people in order to maintain extraction rights to the planet's most coveted material prize. one of the main reasons that the know-how is so important is so that the correct weapons can be built in order to effectively secure and defend natural resources. >SYNERGETICS >From Synergetics, New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., 1975 >203.06 Synergetics altogether forsakes axioms as "self-evident," >premicroscope, superficial beliefs. It predicates all its relationship >explorations on the most accurately and comprehensively statable >observations regarding direct experiences... he's avoiding the issue. pure and simple. >220.11 What mathematicians have been calling abstraction is reality. >When they are inadequate in their abstraction, then they are irrelevant >to reality. The mathematicians feel that they can do anything they want >with their abstraction because they don't relate it to reality. And, >of course, they *can* really do anything they want with their abstractions, >even though, like masturbation, it is irrelevant to the propagation of life. i always liked this masturbation quote. once again, though, he's employing a sort of defense mechanism by casting aspersions at those who have developed the theoretical underpinnings of most of the interesting creations of humanity. he somehow wants to separate himself from those who abstract, while he spends many pages talking ceaselessly about numbers. a little humility, Richard. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 10:49:20 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: a little contradiction Gerald de Jong (gerald@TACIT.HACKTIC.NL) wrote: > am i to conclude that the revelation of two statements that seem > to contradict each other is to be ignored? i doubt that even Kurt > himself would advocate turning a blind eye to obvious contradiction. > the Incompleteness Theorum is a proof that any sufficiently complex > formal language contains "holes", but that's a far cry from saying > that we may as well ignore things that don't appear to jive with > each other. I wouldn't ask anyone to ignore or accept contradictions. I think there is unrealized value in looking behind the seeming contradiction. And humility in recognizing the imposibility of knowing if one's world view entails contradictions or not. Humans' are born ignorant ... But the really shocking thing for me to realize is that even mathematics is on shaky ground w.r.t. it's philosophical foundations and getting everything "ironed out" in a 100% logic proof presentation. I thought the discussion was getting to the outer limits of philosophical foundations, and thought it would be valuable to get some perspective. > isn't it our friend RBF who indicates that he had the privelege of > finding _THE_ coordinate system of Universe? Fuller also said that Synergetics would be controversial (and this list's discussions seem to support this). I think Bucky did his best to find _THE_ coordinate system of Universe, but alas it may (or may not) turn out that it is only yet another viewport, yet another mathematics --- history may provide an answer. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 11:37:34 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. Kirby Urner (pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM) wrote: > Another question I have is whether we should split this into more than one > list. I don't think the volume has gotten to the point where this is necessary yet. But I have been anticipating the day when this should occur for some time now!! We need a Bucky activist with Sys Adm priveledges on a full internet connection and some spare time to set it up. Probably by the time the list really gets totally unmanageable I might even be in such a position. > I'm wondering if Kiyoshi's site might offer elements of the solution. What > would > it take to install LISTSERV software at Kiyoshi's place? Or will having generic > email, minus full internet access, be sufficient to participate on FIXX)? I > don't see > how, off hand. How about some other site, another university? Maybe one where > Fuller had friends and contacts in his day. I can't think of any promising > leads on > my end, off hand, but I haven't actively researched the question, either. I'd be willing to research, install, and maintain a majordomo (listserv-like mailing list manager) on Kiyoshi's system. Unfortunately, my ideas about providing such advanced services from cpp.pha.pa.us have not yet received any support. So perhaps I can ask my current I-net provider about setting up a majordomo server here ... The majordomo FAQ is at http://www.pop.psu.edu/~barr/majordomo-faq.html. > I think I'll take this opportunity to unsubscribe for awhile, which will > force me > to get serious about exploring other options. I'll be lurking on > bit.listserv.geodesic, > so this is not goodbye. Hope to see ya'll soon at some new site -- sooner > rather > than later I hope. The newsgroup interface is much nicer, IMHO. Especially with a threaded newsreader like tin. I abandoned the mail interface as soon as I had a reliable newsreader interface and I recommend this way of accessing GEODESIC. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 08:56:29 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: ideas and integreties X-To: Dennis McCracken In-Reply-To: <199501070758.XAA23270@odin.community.net>; from "Dennis McCracken" at Jan 6, 95 11:58 pm Dennis McCracken writes: > > I have not been able to locate Ideas and Integreties. Is it still in print? > If so do you have the reference? > > .- > I seriously doubt that it is still in print. The copy I have was published by Collier books in 1969 (paperback). Suggest looking in used book stores or using your local inter-library loan service. Maybe someone on the BuckyNet can help you. Good luck, Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 09:19:42 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Germany, In-Reply-To: ; from "DANTES Far East Field Office" at Jan 9, 95 6:58 am DANTES Far East Field Office writes: > > Sorry, guys, but some one is still sending me messages months after I > unsubscribed from this list. Some one must have added this address to their > return address list. I'll contine to send one of these every week until I'm > off the list. > .- > Send an e-mail message to listserv@ubvm.bitnet Leave subject line blank In body of message at far left margin put the following command signoff geodesic -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 09:35:34 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: FAQ/FTP locations? In-Reply-To: ; from "Adam Eberbach" at Jan 8, 95 10:59 pm Adam Eberbach writes: > > I'm sure the request for the FAQ is a FAQ, but I don't know much about > listserv and how it works, and I haven't found anything via the normal > methods. Pointers to ftp sites containing Fuller/Geodesics/Architecture > information, and a Geodesic or Fuller FAQ would be appreciated. > -- > Adam Eberbach, Computer Science graduate, RMIT. adam@arcadia.cs.rmit.edu.au > .- > There's a bunch of Bucky stuff at switchboard.ftp.com -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 09:54:03 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: KIRBY URNER Kirby, Thanks for your excellent input. Hope to hear from you in the future. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:46:51 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond Subject: Re: a little contradiction [stuff deleted] > But the driving source of their wealth is know-how, metaphysical stuff, like > computer software. Bill Gates has a lot of real estate properties, but real > estate is not what made the guy a billionaire. > > Kirby No its not. Lying, cheating, and stealing is what made him a billionaire. Taking advantage of a new age where the people who were getting run over had no laws protecting them yet. IMHO, Gates exploited the open systems of the past for his own capitalistic gain. Gee, I wonder why this stuff costs so much? Harry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 19:48:32 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. In <199501091320.AA00190@xs1.xs4all.nl> Chris Fearnley writes: >The newsgroup interface is much nicer, IMHO. Especially with a threaded >newsreader like tin. I abandoned the mail interface as soon as I had a >reliable newsreader interface and I recommend this way of accessing >GEODESIC. i tend to agree, Chris. how hard is it to establish alt.fan.bucky-fuller? what's the process? there might be enough of us to do so. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 19:56:59 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. In <199501090225.AA20421@xs1.xs4all.nl> Kirby Urner writes: >I'd like to make it a goal in 1995 (wondering if any of you would agree) to >move this list to a new location. it needs to be actively maintained, however that can be accomplished. this current ghost list server is probably getting on everybody's nerves. >I think I'll take this opportunity to unsubscribe for awhile, which will >force me to get serious about exploring other options. you will be sorely missed. i hope that someone is able to set up an alternative soon. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 15:57:00 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gee Pi Bee Subject: Re: a little contradiction In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:46:51 EST from To: BadDog - what was the thrust of "a little contradiction?" what was deleted? I'm new to the List (last night) - Concerning Gates: how did he lie cheat steal etc? Is he a modern robber-baron? The Rockefeller/Ford of software (I'm not trying to be redundant here....) Was he operating out of Integrity and "just did what he had to do?" Most Curious!!.... If anyone would like to answer direct forward to R3BAC@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU Thanx :) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 23:59:35 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ross Keatinge Organization: Public Access Internet, Auckland New Zealand Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. Although I haven't said much, I'm a regular follower of bit.listserv.geodesic It would be interesting to have an informal vote as to people's preference of mailing list or newsgroup. My preference is for a newsgroup simply because in this part of the planet we pay for all traffic except news. The current best of both worlds would be good if it was working properly. It would be a pity to lose someone who doesn't have usenet access. I think there are advantages not spliting the group / list until it really gets too big. My own interest was initially just domes but soon became interested in the other topics discussed here which I may have otherwise missed out on in a domes only group. I also follow the wholesys mailing list which is based on netcom and seems to work very well. Cheers all Ross Keatinge Auckland New Zealand ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Jan 1995 21:24:39 -0500 Reply-To: IRCG Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: IRCG Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Conference on Next Steps in the Human Civilizational Project FOUNDATION FOR SOCIAL PROGRESS Call for Papers The Foundation for Social Progress will hold its first research conference concurrently with the Second World Congress of Universalism, 13-19 August, 1995, at the University of Central Florida, in Orlando. The theme of the conference will be "The Next Steps in the Human Civilizational Project." We invite scholars and practitioners from all disciplines to propose papers for presentation at the conference. Premise: Humanity stands on the threshold of a new era. Unified field theories, complex systems theory, postdarwinian evolutionary biology, dialectical sociology, and anthropic cosmology have revolutionized our understanding of the universe, providing, for the first time, definitive scientific evidence to support the insight that the universe is fundamentally relational, holistic, self-organizing, and teleological in character, and paving the way for a new, synergistic mode of social organization which taps into the creative potential latent in matter generally --and the social form of matter in particular. At the same time, further development and implementation of this new mode of organization is held back by an outmoded social structure. Neither market economies nor centralized redistributional systems have proven themselves adequate to the task of organizing the diversity and complexity which characterizes the emerging synergistic mode of production. We face the enormous challenge of simultaneously developing synergistic theory, applying its insights to every sphere of human social life, and developing a strategy for reorganizing the basic institutions and underlying structure of our society. Criteria for Selection of Papers: We are looking for papers which in some way contribute to this task. We are especially interested in: * basic research in the natural and social sciences, particularly studies which reflect a holistic, systems, or dialectical perspective, or which in some way illuminate the relational, holistic, self-organizing, and/or teleological character of physical, chemical, biological, or social processes, * philosophical or theological research which reflects a holistic, systems or dialectical perspective, or which contributes in some way to dialogue or debate around such perspectives, and * strategic studies which analyze current technological, economic, political, and cultural developments and develop plans for organizing, developing, and deploying the resources necessary to promote human development. We plan three sessions: * Research and Analysis * Philosophical and Theological Synthesis, and * Strategic Studies Please submit a short proposal outlining the paper you wish to present, together with a resume or curriculum vitae, no later than 31 March 1995. Those selected to present a paper will be notified by 1 May, and should submit a final version of their paper no later than 1 July. Selected papers will be published in Dialectic, Cosmos, and Society, the journal of the Foundation for Social Progress. Send all proposals to Anthony Mansueto, Foundation for Social Progress, P.O. Box 59875, Chicago, IL 60659, Telephone 312/465-3137, Email ircg@aol.com. Electronic submissions preferred. Anthony Mansueto Foundation for Social Progress P.O. Box 59875 Chicago, IL 60659 ircg@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 08:05:43 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: a little contradiction In <199501091254.AA26453@xs1.xs4all.nl> Chris Fearnley writes: >Gerald de Jong (gerald@TACIT.HACKTIC.NL) wrote: >> am i to conclude that the revelation of two statements that seem >> to contradict each other is to be ignored? >I wouldn't ask anyone to ignore or accept contradictions. I think there >is unrealized value in looking behind the seeming contradiction. hence the need to reveal the contradiction, so that it can be puzzled upon. >But the >really shocking thing for me to realize is that even mathematics is on >shaky ground w.r.t. it's philosophical foundations and getting everything >"ironed out" in a 100% logic proof presentation. the Incompleteness Theorum didn't say that 100% logical proofs were impossible, but rather that there were always "holes" in any nontrivial formal language. it's not a reason to throw out any bubbly babies with their bathwater. (i just left home on my way to work, and my little son was being put in bath, so he's here right now. i hope my wife is careful when she throws out the water!) it's an interesting question indeed, given this, to ask what the possible basis can be for a system of mathematics. on the one hand, if it helps you predict things in the real world i guess it gets the stamp of approval. in fact that might be worth the gold seal, regardless of how unreal-sounding the math is. . on the other hand you have RBF, who didn't really base his mathematics on its ability to predict real-world things, but rather based it (if you can call it math) on most-comfortable positioning and least-effort movement. i see a dramatic difference between the two. >> isn't it our friend RBF who indicates that he had the privelege of >> finding _THE_ coordinate system of Universe? >Fuller also said that Synergetics would be controversial. he enjoyed playing the clown to a certain degree. i get that from many parts of Synergetics. he liked to shock folks. >to find _THE_ coordinate system of Universe, but alas it may (or may >not) turn out that it is only yet another viewport, yet another >mathematics --- history may provide an answer. if we (someone) can take it to the stage of "a mathematics", from its current stage as "an interesting story about geometry". -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 07:01:41 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. Ross Keatinge (icosa@iconz.co.nz) wrote: > It would be interesting to have an informal vote as to people's preference > of mailing list or newsgroup. I suspect mailing lists work better for specialized interests (like a synergetics software development group) where the more private environment is conducive to lot's of content, little fluff --- perhaps a bit intimidating to college students lurking and/or seeking wisdom. Newsgroups are very public places where everyone gets their say and so lot's of fluff gets mixed in with ocassionally brilliant prose. I think it's essential to keep bit.listserv.geodesic. Maybe instead of eliminating listserv we could find some software that would process the newsgroup and redistribute as e-mail. Sort of like two mailing lists (listserv + this new thing) and the newsgroup --- all with the same content. I'm sure this could be done, but I don't know if it has already been done. > I think there are advantages not spliting the group / list until it > really gets too big. My own interest was initially just domes but soon > became interested in the other topics discussed here which I may have > otherwise missed out on in a domes only group. Maybe when we get to 30-100 messages per day splitting will be important. I follow the Linux newsgroups some of which get over 100 postings per day. So size-wise this list/newsgroup is very, very small. But for any special volunteer projects people might want to start, a private mailing list would really pay off: who wants to see oodles of patches unless you are intimately involved in the project. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:29:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: FYI: A new listserver on Whole Systems Since this is, after all, our forte ;) I thought I might forward the notice of this new mailing list. (btw: geodesics is already echoed on usenet as bitnet.geodesics for those who want to save on email charges) | / / / ____ / | / / __ / __ / / __ | /| / /-- / / / / / /___ / / /--- /_ / / /- -/ /--- | / | / / / / / / /-/ / / / /___ / /-/ / / / /___ |/ |/ / / /_/ / /__ ____/ /__/ ____/ /___ /__ / / / ____/ ___/ This is the Whole Systems list for the discussion of: - the principles of whole systems, - abundance economies, - the creation of a new civilization, - new global paradigms - whole system metaphysics - networking and synergy This might be a list for you if you would consider reading books like: "Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth" by Buckminster Fuller "Earth Ascending" by Jose Arguelles "Paradigms" by Joel Arthur Barker "The Age of the Network" by Jessica Lipnack and Jeffrey Stamps "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot "Finite and Infinite Games" by James P. Carse "The Celestine Prophecy" by James Redfield "The Mind Map Book" by Tony Buzan "The Future of Mankind" by Tara Singh The list is for the exploration of whole system principles, particularly in regards to economic, ecological, sociological and metaphysical transformation of our civilization. The intention is to create and discuss a positive vision for the future of planet Earth as a whole system. This is an unmoderated public list. No flaming will be allowed, but frank discussions are welcome. It is pre-supposed that the participants support the general idea of creating a better future and are able to tolerate diverse viewpoints. You subscribe to wholesys-l by sending a message to: listserv@netcom.com with the message text: subscribe wholesys-l All messages about subscribing, unsubscribing or any other requests must go to the listserv address. You can send a message with 'help' in the message body if you don't know what you can do. Messages meant to be distributed to all the members of the list should be sent to: wholesys-l@netcom.com This list is maintained by: Flemming Funch so if you don't know what to do, send me a message. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 09:06:14 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. In-Reply-To: ; from "Chris Fearnley" at Jan 10, 95 7:01 am Some of us can't get bit.listserv.geodesic, therefore the Geodesic list is our only way of keeping up. I like both/and situations: I vote to keep the list. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 09:12:13 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: LARGE RADAR DOME In the February 1995 issue of Popular Mechanics is a color picture of the Haystack radardome at Tyngsboro, MA. It's on page 30. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 09:28:53 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: NEXRAD DOME In the December 1994 issue of Popular Science on page 65 is a color picture of one of the Next Generation Weather Radar geodesic domes designed to detect severe thunderstorms and tornadoes. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 09:32:08 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: MICROWAVE CLOTHES DRYER In the December 1994 issue of Popular Science on page 65 is an article about a microwave clothes dryer that uses 1/3 as much energy as a conventional dryer. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 13:29:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. In-Reply-To: <199501101821.AA27856@charon.osc.on.ca> (message from Joe Moore on Tue, 10 Jan 1995 09:06:14 PST) > "JSM" == Joe Moore writes: JSM> Some of us can't get bit.listserv.geodesic, therefore the JSM> Geodesic list is our only way of keeping up. I like both/and JSM> situations: I vote to keep the list. I have been at several net sites where either there is no news (like here, although I will get to it once the exhibit opens) or only limited news, whereas, when between sites (read "unemployed") I can still get the news through very low cost internet-bbs accounts. So I will agree with Joe: Please keep the options open and keep both Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 ------------------------------- What would you do with an extra hour? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 13:33:00 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. (fwd) Harry 'BadDog' Hammond writes: > From spsup-1.navy.mil!fs0.uii.com!harry Tue Jan 10 10:37:42 1995 > Message-Id: > From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond > To: Joe Moore > Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 13:40:12 EST > Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. > Priority: normal > X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.11a) > > > Some of us can't get bit.listserv.geodesic, therefore the Geodesic list is o ur > > only way of keeping up. I like both/and situations: I vote to keep the list . > > > > Joe > > I agree with Joe. I don't know if I would have access to a newsgroup. > Heck - I don't even know what UseNet is. I vote to keep the list. > > Harry > > *** > The preceding comments and opinions are mine > and mine alone and do not represent those of > my employer in any way shape or form including > tetrahedral. > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 13:35:44 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY FILES The following Bucky files are available at: switchboard.ftp.com/bucky S I Z E D A T E N A M E D E S C R I P T I O N 3644 Oct 28 1994 Buckypic.amiga IFF format pic 785464 Nov 1 1994 Buckypics.lha crunch amiga; 110 PD pics 276585 Nov 9 1994 RBFdb.lha DBase format crunch amiga 11600 Jul 20 1994 curVE1.F.jpg JPEG format pic 219261 Jul 21 1994 fuller.ascii FAQ ASCII format text 279384 Jul 21 1994 fuller.dvi FAQ DVI format text 217247 Jul 25 1994 fuller.latex FAQ LATEX format text 215441 Jul 21 1994 fuller.sgml FAQ SGML format text 2082174 Dec 9 1994 joe.moore.buckypics.jpg.tgz JPEG format; 110 PD pics 17243 Jul 20 1994 sphere.jpg JPEG format pic 37717 Jul 20 1994 tenseg-6.jpg JPEG format pic 623782 Jul 20 1994 tenseg-6.ps postscript doc 38137 Jul 20 1994 tenseg-7.jpg JPEG format pic 623780 Jul 20 1994 tenseg-7.ps postscript doc -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 13:43:42 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: OBSERVATORY DOME In the January 1995 issue of Popular Mechanics on page 19 is a picture of the new Hobby-Eberly Observatory enclosed by a large geodesic dome. The mirror is 3 feet wider than the 396 inch Keck reflector. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 13:48:26 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BRIEFCASE SATELLITE PHONE In the January 1995 issue of Popular Mechanics on page 44 is a picture of a totally self-contained portable satellite telephone system that weighs only 27 pounds. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 13:55:29 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: GEODESIC GOLFBALL In the February 1995 issue of Popular Science on page 59 is an article and color drawings of a golfball design based on an icosahedron. Also, in the January 1995 issue of Popular Mechanics on page 24 is another article and drawing about geodesic golfball design. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 17:22:41 MDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ken G. Brown" Organization: BEST Online Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. I don't seem to be experiencing problems of a substantial nature with this list, as Kirby seems to be. The only problem I experience is one 'can't deliver to address' message when I post. Seems relatively minor, but it would be nice to have it fixed somehow. Perhaps the best place for the list to reside however, would be at the location of the FIX BBS assuming of course that they would be able to maintain it better. In the meantime I certainly find this list valuable and have no intention of unsubscribing unless the list moves. Also I don't for the moment think the list needs to be split, even though my interests gravitate to the more practical discussions rather than the metaphysical ramblings. Sometimes it is interesting to browse them as well. Ken G. Brown (kbrown@atc.edmonton.ab.ca) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 16:14:16 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FULLERENES There is a nice color picture of a Fullerene molecule on page 105 of the 12-12-94 issue of US News & World Report. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Jan 1995 16:10:40 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: JOSEPH CLINTON FYI, Joseph Clinton's address is 334 MacKenzie Dr., West Chester, PA 19380. 215-692-5725. Mr. Clinton wrote a computer program for NASA in 1965 that generates Chord Factors and Angles (NASA Contract NGR 14-008-002). The address info came from 'DOME' magazine, Summer 1994, page 37. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 03:12:00 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: a little contradiction >> computer software. Bill Gates has a lot of real estate properties, but real >> estate is not what made the guy a billionaire. >No its not. Lying, cheating, and stealing is what made him a >billionaire. Taking advantage of a new age where the people >who were getting run over had no laws protecting them yet. >IMHO, Gates exploited the open systems of the past for his >own capitalistic gain. Gee, I wonder why this stuff costs so >much? I agree totally. Consult _Hackers_ by Steven Levy for an early history of how Gates did it. Corporate-made software, by definition, will always be inferior to that done by hackers. Things like Emacs or Linux have what, say, MS-Windows can never have: integrity. And I know it will be hacker-made software, free and with source code, that will be first to break the "paper paradigm" of current software, which emulates a piece of paper on the computer screen, thus denying all of the new possibilities that these screens can bring. Michael ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 04:15:00 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. I suppose this list is fine for now but I think that eventually, we'll have to move. The "failed posting" message I get every time I post is annoying, but to me the big issue is splitting the list. I'm too new here to know what the average traffic's like, but in the future when things get busier (and I suspect they will), we'll probably want to devote separate lists to domes, synergetics, world game, etc. Then, where in the usenet tree would it go? sci.synergetics? That would be interesting but'd leave out the others. Maybe it's silly of me but whenever I think of the alt.fan- newsgroups I think of tv shows and comic books, nothing "serious." And this bitnet list is archived; who would do the archiving of our hypothetical new usenet list(s)? Hmm. Thinking out loud, Michael ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 08:11:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette With all the recent discussion about how people *should* post, I thought I let everyone read this delightful piece. [ Article crossposted from news.announce.newusers,news.answers ] [ Author was Mark Moraes ] [ Posted on Wed, 28 Dec 1994 09:00:11 GMT ] Original-author: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) Archive-name: usenet/emily-postnews/part1 Last-change: 2 Nov 1994 by brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) Changes-posted-to: news.misc,news.answers **NOTE: this is intended to be satirical. If you do not recognize it as such, consult a doctor or professional comedian. The recommendations in this article should recognized for what they are -- admonitions about what NOT to do. "Dear Emily Postnews" Emily Postnews, foremost authority on proper net behaviour, gives her advice on how to act on the net. =========================================================================== Q: Dear Miss Postnews: How long should my signature be? -- verbose@noisy A: Dear Verbose: Please try and make your signature as long as you can. It's much more important than your article, of course, so try to have more lines of signature than actual text. Try to include a large graphic made of ASCII characters, plus lots of cute quotes and slogans. People will never tire of reading these pearls of wisdom again and again, and you will soon become personally associated with the joy each reader feels at seeing yet another delightful repeat of your signature. Be sure as well to include a complete map of Usenet with each signature, to show how anybody can get mail to you from any site in the world. Be sure to include Internet gateways as well. Also tell people on your own site how to mail to you. Give independent addresses for Internet, UUCP, and BITNET, even if they're all the same. Aside from your reply address, include your full name, company and organization. It's just common courtesy -- after all, in some newsreaders people have to type an *entire* keystroke to go back to the top of your article to see this information in the header. By all means include your phone number and street address in every single article. People are always responding to Usenet articles with phone calls and letters. It would be silly to go to the extra trouble of including this information only in articles that need a response by conventional channels! ------ Q: Dear Emily: Today I posted an article and forgot to include my signature. What should I do? -- forgetful@myvax A: Dear Forgetful: Rush to your terminal right away and post an article that says, "Oops, I forgot to post my signature with that last article. Here it is." Since most people will have forgotten your earlier article, (particularly since it dared to be so boring as to not have a nice, juicy signature) this will remind them of it. Besides, people care much more about the signature anyway. See the previous letter for more important details. Also, be sure to include your signature TWICE in each article. That way you're sure people will read it. ------ Q: Dear Ms. Postnews: I couldn't get mail through to somebody on another site. What should I do? -- eager@beaver.dam A: Dear Eager: No problem, just post your message to a group that a lot of people read. Say, "This is for John Smith. I couldn't get mail through so I'm posting it. All others please ignore." This way tens of thousands of people will spend a few seconds scanning over and ignoring your article, using up over 16 man-hours their collective time, but you will be saved the terrible trouble of checking through Usenet maps or looking for alternate routes. Just think, if you couldn't distribute your message to 30,000 other computers, you might actually have to (gasp) call directory assistance for 60 cents, or even phone the person. This can cost as much as a few DOLLARS (!) for a 5 minute call! And certainly it's better to spend 10 to 20 dollars of other people's money distributing the message then for you to have to waste $9 on an overnight letter, or even 29 cents on a stamp! Don't forget. The world will end if your message doesn't get through, so post it as many places as you can. ------ Q: What about a test message? A: It is important, when testing, to test the entire net. Never test merely a subnet distribution when the whole net can be done. Also put "please ignore" on your test messages, since we all know that everybody always skips a message with a line like that. Don't use a subject like "My sex is female but I demand to be addressed as male." because such articles are read in depth by all USEnauts. ------ Q: Somebody just posted that Roman Polanski directed Star Wars. What should I do? - smartaleck@some.site A: Post the correct answer at once! We can't have people go on believing that! Very good of you to spot this. You'll probably be the only one to make the correction, so post as soon as you can. No time to lose, so certainly don't wait a day, or check to see if somebody else has made the correction. And it's not good enough to send the message by mail. Since you're the only one who really knows that it was Francis Coppola, you have to inform the whole net right away! Using the most confrontational and impolite language you can, don't forget to point out the folly of the error made by the person. ------ Q: I read an article that said, "reply by mail, I'll summarize." What should I do? A: Post your response to the whole net. That request applies only to dumb people who don't have something interesting to say. Your postings are much more worthwhile than other people's, so it would be a waste to reply by mail. ------ Q: I collected replies to an article I wrote, and now it's time to summarize. What should I do? A: Simply concatenate all the articles together into a big file and post that. On Usenet, this is known as a summary. It lets people read all the replies without annoying newsreaders getting in the way. Do the same when summarizing a vote. ------ Q: I saw a long article that I wish to rebut carefully, what should I do? A: Include the entire text with your article, particularly the signature, and include your comments closely packed between the lines. Be sure to post, and not mail, even though your article looks like a reply to the original. Everybody *loves* to read those long point-by-point debates, especially when they evolve into name-calling and lots of "Is too!" -- "Is not!" -- "Is too, twizot!" exchanges. Be sure to follow-up everything, and never let another person get in the last word on a net debate. Why, if people let other people have the last word, then discussions would actually stop! Remember, other net readers aren't nearly as clever as you, and if somebody posts something wrong, the readers can't possibly realize that on their own without your elucidations. If somebody gets insulting in their net postings, the best response is to get right down to their level and fire a return salvo. When I read one net person make an insulting attack on another, I always immediately take it as gospel unless a rebuttal is posted. It never makes me think less of the insulter, so it's your duty to respond. ------ Q: How can I choose what groups to post in? A: Pick as many as you can, so that you get the widest audience. After all, the net exists to give you an audience. Ignore those who suggest you should only use groups where you think the article is highly appropriate. Pick all groups where anybody might even be slightly interested. Always make sure followups go to all the groups. In the rare event that you post a followup which contains something original, make sure you expand the list of groups. Never include a "Followup-to:" line in the header, since some people might miss part of the valuable discussion in the fringe groups. ------ Q: How about an example? A: Ok. Let's say you want to report that Gretzky has been traded from the Oilers to the Kings. Now right away you might think rec.sport.hockey would be enough. WRONG. Many more people might be interested. This is a big trade! Since it's a NEWS article, it belongs in the news.* hierarchy as well. If you are a news admin, or there is one on your machine, try news.admin. If not, use news.misc. The Oilers are probably interested in geology, so try sci.geo.fluids. He is a big star, so post to sci.astro, and sci.space because they are also interested in stars. And of course comp.dcom.telecom because he was born in the birthplace of the telephone. And because he's Canadian, post to soc.culture.Ontario.southwestern. But that group doesn't exist, so cross-post to news.groups suggesting it should be created. With this many groups of interest, your article will be quite bizarre, so post to talk.bizarre as well. (And post to comp.std.mumps, since they hardly get any articles there, and a "comp" group will propagate your article further.) You may also find it is more fun to post the article once in each group. If you list all the newsgroups in the same article, some newsreaders will only show the the article to the reader once! Don't tolerate this. ------ Q: How do I create a newsgroup? A: The easiest way goes something like "inews -C newgroup ....", and while that will stir up lots of conversation about your new newsgroup, it might not be enough. First post a message in news.groups describing the group. This is a "call for discussion." (If you see a call for discussion, immediately post a one line message saying that you like or dislike the group.) When proposing the group, pick a name with a TLA (three-letter acronym) that will be understood only by "in" readers of the group. After the call for discussion, post the call for flames, followed by a call for arguments about the name and a call for run-on puns. Eventually make a call for "votes." Usenet is a democracy, so voters can now all post their votes to ensure they get to all 30,000 machines instead of just the person counting. Every few days post a long summary of all the votes so that people can complain about bad mailers and double votes. It means you'll be more popular and get lots of mail. At the end of 21 days you can post the vote results so that people can argue about all the technical violations of the guidelines you made. Blame them on the moderator-of-the-week for news.announce.newgroups. Then your group might be created. To liven up discussion, choose a good cross-match for your hierarchy and group. For example, comp.race.formula1 or soc.vlsi.design would be good group names. If you want your group created quickly, include an interesting word like "sex" or "activism." To avoid limiting discussion, make the name as broad as possible, and don't forget that TLA. If possible, count votes from a leaf site with a once-a-week polled connection to botswanavax. Schedule the vote during your relay site's head crash if possible. Under no circumstances use the trial group method, because it eliminates the discussion, flame, pun, voting and guideline-violation accusation phases, thus taking all the fun out of it. To create an ALT group, simply issue the creation command. Then issue an rmgroup and some more newgroup messages to save other netters the trouble of doing that part. ------ Q: I cant spell worth a dam. I hope your going too tell me what to do? A: Don't worry about how your articles look. Remember it's the message that counts, not the way it's presented. Ignore the fact that sloppy spelling in a purely written forum sends out the same silent messages that soiled clothing would when addressing an audience. ------ Q: How should I pick a subject for my articles? A: Keep it short and meaningless. That way people will be forced to actually read your article to find out what's in it. This means a bigger audience for you, and we all know that's what the net is for. If you do a followup, be sure and keep the same subject, even if it's totally meaningless and not part of the same discussion. If you don't, you won't catch all the people who are looking for stuff on the original topic, and that means less audience for you. ------ Q: What sort of tone should I take in my article? A: Be as outrageous as possible. If you don't say outlandish things, and fill your article with libelous insults of net people, you may not stick out enough in the flood of articles to get a response. The more insane your posting looks, the more likely it is that you'll get lots of followups. The net is here, after all, so that you can get lots of attention. If your article is polite, reasoned and to the point, you may only get mailed replies. Yuck! ------ Q: The posting software suggested I had too long a signature and too many lines of included text in my article. What's the best course? A: Such restrictions were put in the software for no reason at all, so don't even try to figure out why they might apply to your article. Turns out most people search the net to find nice articles that consist of the complete text of an earlier article plus a few lines. In order to help these people, fill your article with dummy original lines to get past the restrictions. Everybody will thank you for it. For your signature, I know it's tough, but you will have to read it in with the editor. Do this twice to make sure it's firmly in there. By the way, to show your support for the free distribution of information, be sure to include a copyright message forbidding transmission of your article to sites whose Usenet politics you don't like. Also, if you do have a lot of free time and want to trim down the text in your article, be sure to delete some of the attribution lines so that it looks like the original author of -- say -- a plea for world peace actually wrote the followup calling for the nuking of Bermuda. ------ Q: They just announced on the radio that the United States has invaded Iraq. Should I post? A: Of course. The net can reach people in as few as 3 to 5 days. It's the perfect way to inform people about such news events long after the broadcast networks have covered them. As you are probably the only person to have heard the news on the radio, be sure to post as soon as you can. ------ Q: I have this great joke. You see, these three strings walk into a bar... A: Oh dear. Don't spoil it for me. Submit it to rec.humor, and post it to the moderator of rec.humor.funny at the same time. I'm sure he's never seen that joke. ------ Q: What computer should I buy? An Atari ST or an Amiga? A: Cross post that question to the Atari and Amiga groups. It's an interesting and novel question that I am sure they would love to investigate in those groups. In fact, post your question at once, to as many technical groups as you can think of, concluding your request with the line "Please reply by mail, as I do not follow this group." (No one will find such a statement impertinent; remember, the net is a resource to help you.) There is no need to read the groups in advance or examine the "frequently asked question" lists to see if the topic has already been dealt with. Any such warnings are for people without your innate sense of netiquette, and whose uninspired questions are bound to be repetitive. Your question is sure to be unique; no point checking the list to see if the answer might be there already. How could it be, when you only just thought of the question? ------ Q: What about other important questions? How should I know when to post? A: Always post them. It would be a big waste of your time to find a knowledgeable user in one of the groups and ask through private mail if the topic has already come up. Much easier to bother thousands of people with the same question. ------ Q: Somebody just posted a query to the net, and I want to get the answer too. What should I do? A: Immediately post a following, including the complete text of the query. At the bottom add, "Me too!" If somebody else has done this, follow up their article and add "Me three," or whatever number is appropriate. Don't forget your full signature. After all, if you just mail the original poster and ask for a copy of the answers, you will simply clutter the poster's mailbox, and save people who do answer the question the joyful duty of noting all the "me (n)s" and sending off all the multiple copies. ------ Q: What is the measure of a worthwhile group? A: Why, it's Volume, Volume, Volume. Any group that has lots of noise in it must be good. Remember, the higher the volume of material in a group, the higher percentage of useful, factual and insightful articles you will find. In fact, if a group can't demonstrate a high enough volume, it should be deleted from the net. ------ Q: Emily, I'm having a serious disagreement with somebody on the net. I tried complaints to his sysadmin, organizing mail campaigns, called for his removal from the net and phoning his employer to get him fired. Everybody laughed at me. What can I do? A: Go to the daily papers. Most modern reporters are top-notch computer experts who will understand the net, and your problems, perfectly. They will print careful, reasoned stories without any errors at all, and surely represent the situation properly to the public. The public will also all act wisely, as they are also fully cognizant of the subtle nature of net society. Papers never sensationalize or distort, so be sure to point out things like racism and sexism wherever they might exist. Be sure as well that they understand that all things on the net, particularly insults, are meant literally. Link what transpires on the net to the causes of the Holocaust, if possible. If regular papers won't take the story, go to a tabloid paper -- they are always interested in good stories. By arranging all this free publicity for the net, you'll become very well known. People on the net will wait in eager anticipation for your every posting, and refer to you constantly. You'll get more mail than you ever dreamed possible -- the ultimate in net success. ------ Q: Emily, how can I put out my billboard on the information superhighway? A: The best way to do it is to perform a spam. It's called that because everybody loves it as much as the customer in the Monty Python "Spam" sketch loves his spam. The best way to do this is to find some naive programmer and ask it to write a script that posts your message to every newsgroup. You'll start by getting as big a list of newsgroups as you can find. The members of Usenet, hoping to see your ad, have prepared these lists just for you. It doesn't really matter what your product is. If people on the net might use it, they'll be happy to read about it in every group. Now create a message promoting yourself. Be bold, be daring, and be sure to provide info on how to contact you in ways that people on the net can't shut off. (More on that later.) Because the reaction is going to be so overwhelming, be sure to take the following steps: a) Unlist your phone number. The networking public is going to want to contact you so much to talk about your product or service that they'll even try to call you at home. If they get your home phone or address, they'll be sure to share it with all the other people seeking to send you their admiration, and your fame may prove too much. You want business, of course, but do you want to take orders all night? b) Get an account with some other internet account providers. For reasons not quite certain, your provider probably has a clause in their contract with you saying not to do a spam. Even if they don't, they will probably delete your account a few hours after you announce your product, so be sure to get other accounts under assumed names so you can follow what's going on. This is the reason that expecting E-mail replies to your ad won't work. c) Be sure you've lead a clean life. You and your product are going to become as famous as Gary Hart and O.J. Simpson! But, as you know, such fame has its downsides, as your eager fans will research every tawdry episode from your past history. So be sure there are no skeletons in your closet. (Unless your product is skeletons!) d) Due to the Brady Bill, you may want to file your firearms acquisition request a few days in advance of your ad. Soon you're going to be rich, and you'll need to protect that wealth. e) Load plenty of fax paper in your fax machine. Hire extra staff to load the rolls. There may be orders in all the faxes you will get. f) Resign any memberships you may have in any professional associations you may have joined relating to your business that might have something as pesky as a code of ethics. Why put them through the trouble of handling all the calls from your adoring fans, looking for somebody to talk with about you? Ok, now you're ready. Unleash the posting program. Have it send your message once to every group. There are thousands. Now picture in your mind the prospective customer. She starts her day, perhaps, reading a group about her hobby. And right there is your ad! The title is curious so she reads it. Your name is now inserted into her mind -- you've got mindshare. It's true your product didn't have anything to do with her hobby, but the net is there to find customers for you, not for people to share their thoughts. Then she goes to her next group, perhaps about her brand of computer. There's your ad again! You've sneaked into the great demographics of the high-tech world. As she goes on, she sees your ad again and again. Imagine her joy as she sees your now familiar headline everywhere she goes. "Wow, they must be really big and important," she'll think. "They're as famous as IBM." Soon that joy will be so much that she'll be ready to buy, buy, buy. Now comes the bad news. Usenet is unreliable, and postings don't always work. So, for unknown reasons, a few hours after you make your postings they will all have disappeared. Normally you would just post them again, but by this time your internet mail access will have been deleted, as I said above, so you'll have to just sit back and bask in the adulation and orders. There is a theory that some people, who don't like your ad, will have a smarter program than your posting program root around the net and stamp it out, but I hardly think it's likely anybody would do that. There will be some people annoyed, it's true. But the net has at least 10 million people on it, and you'll probably only *really* annoy perhaps 3 to 4 million of them -- a minority! Others who have tried this have reported not only that a mere minority show displeasure, but that vast numbers of people take the time to send back inquiries and orders just so you can have more to read. Unfortunately, they rarely actually pay. Some theorize that those in the vocal minority who don't like you are sending in pretend positive responses, to waste your time. Who would bother to do that? Perhaps just 1% out of the 3 to 4 million annoyed people, at most. That shouldn't bother you too much. A similar percentage may try to phone you, or fax you, or send bricks postage due, or subscribe you to magazines. Ignore them. They're just 40,000 or so of the lunatic fringe, communist element you find on the net. They're just upset because you're making money and they're not. In fact, suckers that they are, they actually ended up paying to transmit your ad everywhere. Learn to ignore them. (That's not advice, it's just something you'll have to do.) Now at this point you probably have to stop answering your phone, but keep those faxes coming in, and of course get ready for the mail. If you ever do get to see some of the E-mail you got sent -- wow, what a flood! When it settles a bit, threaten to sue anybody who didn't like you. That should put some fear of God into them. They should have known better than to build a system so open. Sure, they built the network as a cooperative effort, but if they didn't want your ads, why didn't they put in protections against them or enact laws to stop them? What you did was probably legal, so what's their complaint? They're like people who leave their keys in their cars and whine when they get stolen. Really, like they didn't deserve it. They just don't see the wonderful new purpose to which their network can be put, to help small, exciting firms like yours get famous. That's the American dream, after all, and you're living it, or will, when the time comes to come back out of your bunker and reconnect your phones. ------ Q: What does foobar stand for? A: It stands for you, dear. --- Christian_Paulus has a French translation of ''Emily Postnews Answers Your Questions on Netiquette''. This translation (posted in fr.news.misc and fdn.misc monthly) is available at: ftp://ftp.fdn.fr/FDN/Doc/Emily-Postnews-repond-a-vos-questions or on the World Wide Web: http://www.fdn.fr/fdn/doc-misc/Emily-Postnews.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 08:29:38 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: BUCKY FILES Joe Moore (joemoore@CRUZIO.COM) wrote: > The following Bucky files are available at: switchboard.ftp.com/bucky > S I Z E D A T E N A M E D E S C R I P T I O N > 219261 Jul 21 1994 fuller.ascii FAQ ASCII format text > 279384 Jul 21 1994 fuller.dvi FAQ DVI format text > 217247 Jul 25 1994 fuller.latex FAQ LATEX format text > 215441 Jul 21 1994 fuller.sgml FAQ SGML format text DVI is a binary file format. You need a LaTeX previewer to view it. So I wouldn't say it's text. I find the LaTeX version of the FAQ is best for paper printing. I didn't post a ps version? Hmmmm > 37717 Jul 20 1994 tenseg-6.jpg JPEG format pic > 623782 Jul 20 1994 tenseg-6.ps postscript doc > 38137 Jul 20 1994 tenseg-7.jpg JPEG format pic > 623780 Jul 20 1994 tenseg-7.ps postscript doc These are encapsulated postscript images, not documentation. John Kirk and I have found better ways to generate these and I really should post another improvement. BTW, tenseg-6 is technically flawed and should probably be removed. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 11:11:23 MDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ken G. Brown" Organization: BEST Online Subject: Re: JOSEPH CLINTON >Mr. Clinton wrote a computer program for NASA in 1965 that >generates Chord Factors and Angles (NASA Contract NGR 14-008-002). That reminds me, I have copies somewhere of the original reports done for NASA (not the programs). I believe the programs are available from NASA for some nominal charge. As I recall, the reports do a fine job of detailing all the possible breakdown methodologies, with good diagrams etc. If anyone would be interested in copies, I would be willing to provide paper copies (with your patience...I have to first dig them out of my archives somewhere) at cost of photocopying and mailing. If interested, e-mail direct to avoid posting to the list. Ken G. Brown (kbrown@atc.edmonton.ab.ca) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 19:35:42 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. Michael Stutz (stutz@RS6000.BALDWINW.EDU) wrote: > I suppose this list is fine for now but I think that eventually, we'll > have to move. The "failed posting" message I get every time I post is > annoying, but to me the big issue is splitting the list. I'm too new > here to know what the average traffic's like, but in the future when > things get busier (and I suspect they will), we'll probably want to > devote separate lists to domes, synergetics, world game, etc. Then, > where in the usenet tree would it go? sci.synergetics? That would be > interesting but'd leave out the others. Maybe it's silly of me but > whenever I think of the alt.fan- newsgroups I think of tv shows and > comic books, nothing "serious." And this bitnet list is archived; who > would do the archiving of our hypothetical new usenet list(s)? Hmm. The list was pretty inactive 'till last August or so - well there were bursts of activity from time to time, but mostly lulls. Even though my FAQ is pretty poor as far as quality and pertinence go, I think that by summarizing the whole History of GEODESIC through August it let the list evolve to a new level. Now when people look in here as lurkers they see some level of organization, some history --- something to be a part of. I think we should aim for the sci heirarchy. But that may be difficult. Anyway, things are fine for now IMHO. We need a real internaut to organize, archive, and maintain any new development. If such a person steps forward, perhaps we should follow. I would love to do the job, but I'm not yet set hardware-wise --- maybe next year? > Thinking out loud, > Michael -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 22:18:13 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Adam Eberbach Organization: Comp Sci, RMIT, Melbourne, Australia Subject: Re: a little contradiction : >No its not. Lying, cheating, and stealing is what made him a : >billionaire. Taking advantage of a new age where the people : I agree totally. Consult _Hackers_ by Steven Levy for an early : history of how Gates did it. Corporate-made software, by definition, Excuse me? Bill-Bashing is fashionable, yes, and as he's the (mostly) owner of a corporation producing a lot of CRAP, in some cases justified. However, "Hackers" doesn't say much about him which deserves your derision. Writing Altair basic was a genuine achievement. He probably went about his "letter" in almost exactly the wrong way, but the guy isn't just a corporate pirate, he has some talent. Credit where credit's due... -- Adam Eberbach, Computer Science graduate, RMIT. adam@arcadia.cs.rmit.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 18:42:00 -0400 Reply-To: BBS AMERICA Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: BBS AMERICA Organization: Log On America, Inc. Subject: Run a BBS? Want full Internet for $24.95/mo? Hello there! Right about now you're probably wondering just what it is you've gone and downloaded. Well, first off, I'll be honest with you... if you're not a SysOp, it's more than likely just something to upload to various BBSes for the credit. But, if you're a SysOp then you have heard all the rage about the Internet that's come up recently. I'll bet you even considered looking into getting full access Internet for your own system! Well, more than likely you eventually realized that full access Internet was way too expensive for your BBS to support.... Until now. Log On America is now offering full access internet for any BBS in the nation for the amazingly low price of $24.95 per month. That's right, this is no joke... All you need is a BBS and at least 2 modems... It's simple, you merely set up the transport door (included as CST54.ZIP) to run from your BBS software. Once you contact us, we will give you the LOCAL phone number that you will need and set up your account. Here's how it works. Your users call your BBS as normal, when they run the Cyberspace Transporter door, it will have your user wait while it dials Log On America. Your user will then get full access to Telnet, FTP, Finger, Whois, World Wide Web. Using the Telnet client, your users can access IRC, MUDs, schools, libraries, and more! With FTP, millions of files from all over the world become available! Easy-to-use hypertext interfaces make surfing the Internet simple with Gopher and the World Wide Web! You can find out information about both people and systems with the Finger and Whois clients! For as much time as you care to allow them... Then, when the user types EXIT, the software will drop carrier and return control to your BBS -- without the user EVER SEEING Log On America. It's that easy! For more information or to sign up, you can contact us by any of the following: Phone: (401)453-6100 M-F 9a-5p EST Fax: (401)459-6222 BBS: (401)459-6200 E-Mail: david.paolo@loa.com Mail: Log On America, Inc. 3 Regency Plaza Providence, RI 02903 ATTN: Internet BBS -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This article was an automated post. Any posting in unrelated newsgroups is an error, please disregard this article if it is off-topic. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 20:59:35 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: WORLDWATCH BOOK In June of 1994 the Worldwatch Institute (Washington, DC) published a book called 'Vital Signs 1994'. It reviews global social and economic trends. In it they state the following: Average worldwide lifespan has risen from 46 years in 1950 to 65 in 1993; In China average life expectancy rose from 41 years in 1950 to 71 in 1993; Arms sales have fallen from $37 billion to $26 billion in 1991; This info came from an article in the San Jose (CA) Mercury News of 6-12-94, page 19-A. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 21:07:22 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY'S MAP There's a company in Santa Cruz, CA, that makes organic herbal teas. On the side of their box is Bucky's Dymaxion Air-Ocean map in color! Their name is Satori Fine Herbals and their phone number is 1-800-444-7286. I checked; they are still in business. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 21:15:07 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: EARTHQUAKE-PROOF DOME In the July 1994 issue of Popular Science magazine on page 37 is a color drawing of a dome within a dome. The designer is Curtis Noble from Pocatello, Idaho. In an earthquake the outside geodesic exoskeleton of beams and cables would move while the interior spherical dome would remain relatively stable. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 21:25:37 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY'S WATER PEOPLE In the August 1974 issue of National Geographic magazine on pages 149-89 is an article entitled "The Phoenicians: Sea Lords of Antiquity". It's an excellent article with a color map and many color photos and drawings. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 21:40:25 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKYBALLS In the Jan-Feb 1993 issue of American Scientist (mag) on pages 56-71 is an excellent article about Fullerenes called "Mathematics and the Buckyball". It has color illustrations, a cutout model, and a bibliography in the back. Additional articles about Fullerenes are at: bucky@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 20:45:40 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Lets move this list! Kirby unsubscribes. >The "failed posting" message I get every time I post is >annoying, but to me the big issue is splitting the list. I'm too new >here to know what the average traffic's like, but in the future when >things get busier (and I suspect they will), we'll probably want to >devote separate lists to domes, synergetics, world game, etc. i'm not so sure that this list will soon become busy enough to require splitting. i suspect that the recent furies have already dimmed quite a bit, and the list will soon be back to 'normal'. >where in the usenet tree would it go? sci.synergetics? That would be >interesting but'd leave out the others. Maybe it's silly of me but >whenever I think of the alt.fan- newsgroups I think of tv shows and >comic books, nothing "serious." i spent a while on alt.fan.noam-chomsky and it was far from silliness. lots of brilliant postings along with the standard level of usenet noise. i also don't think that synergetics is quite scientific enough to reside in the sci tree. maybe just alt.synergetics, since it's much easier to give birth to an alt newsgroup than to a sci. -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 21:00:13 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: whole systems well, on the prompting of the little promo posting i subscribed to the list about whole systems, and despite the fact that i find some of the things they post to be quite interesting, i got a sense of homesickness (?). the reason for this feeling was my sense of the weakness of the various visual analogies that these whole systems thinkers are trying to employ. there was talk about drawing concentric circles for the various subsystems and supersystems that were discussed, and another post used the analogy of a telescopic-to-wide-angle zoom lens to talk about viewing the different levels of scale. when i compared those analogies to the 3d constellations of systems, synergetically combined into larger 3d constellations i suddenly gained a tremendous new appreciation for the philosophical aspect of Fuller's work. it might indeed be much more effective to use things you can hold in your hands and twist around and roll across the table for analogies that help you talk about systems in general. okay, okay, i'm sure some of you were already clued in to this, but for me it was a little discovery. here's to RBF! -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 02:12:39 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: a little contradiction >Excuse me? Bill-Bashing is fashionable, yes, and as he's the (mostly) owner >of a corporation producing a lot of CRAP, in some cases justified. However, >"Hackers" doesn't say much about him which deserves your derision. Writing >Altair basic was a genuine achievement. He probably went about his "letter" >in almost exactly the wrong way, but the guy isn't just a corporate pirate, >he has some talent. Credit where credit's due... Yes he does and I am not denying that. He's done something -- Microsoft -- that I could never do. Regardless of "right" or "wrong," it's still a feat. But the products imho suck, and as pages 225-230 of _Hackers_ describe, his motives were "less than altrusitic." Writing Altair basic was an achievement, but to charge $150 for it? That's what gets me angry about him & his ilk -- he is so corporate. He might have written the first anti-piracy letter but there wouldn't *be* any pirates if people like him didn't charge so much for software. But he chose his path and has to live with it . . . in a way, you almost gotta feel *sorry* for the guy -- he may be filthy rich, but -- like you said -- "Bill-Bashing is fashionable." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 08:40:42 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: ARTICLES ABOUT BUCKY There's a company that does nothing but publish specialized bibliographies. Their name is Vance Bibliographies and their address is P.O.Box 229, Monticello, IL 61856. In March 1988 they published "Richard Buckminster Fuller, Architect: Twenty Years of Journal Reviews". It contains 112 references to articles about Bucky from 1967 till 1985. It's part of their Architectural Series: #A 2004. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 08:53:44 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: HOBBY-EBERLY DOME Here's some additional info that I found about the Hobby-Eberly telescope dome: 86 feet in diameter; prefab aluminum; 1/10 cost of conventional telescope domes; located in the Davis Mountains of west Texas on Mount Fowlkes, next to the Univ. of Texas's McDonald Observatory; will house the world's largest telescope with a main mirror of 423 inches; built by Temcor of Torrance, CA (who also built the McLennan County Convention Center in Waco, TX). This info came from the Austin American-Statesman newspaper dated 3-21-94, page A-1. Has color pic, graph and illustration. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 09:05:49 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: NEXRAD WEATHER RADOMES I found some additional info about the National Weather Service's NEXt generation weather RADar domes: 40 feet in diameter; 158 domes total; $4.6 billion modernization program. This info came from the San Jose Mercury News(paper) [CA] dated 8-23-94, pages 10E and 9E. Color drawings. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:28:14 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FULLERENES For those interested in Fullerenes I happened across the following 4 refs: "Buckyballs: A Little Like Basketballs-Only Smaller", Science, 4-5-91, p.29; "C 60 Structure", Science magazine, 4-12-91, p.187; "A Whole New Ball Game", St.Louis Post-Dispatch newspaper, 11-8-93, p.1-D; 6 color pics and 1 color sketch; "OSU Expert Seeking Better Superconducting Magnets", The Columbus Dispatch newspaper, 11-14-93, p.6-F; 1 pic -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:29:08 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: HISTORY OF SHIPS For those interested in the history of ships, see the following refs: "Ships Through the Ages: A Saga of the Sea", National Geographic, 4-63, pp.494-545; color pics and drawings; "Twilight of the Arab Dhow", National Geographic, 9-74, pp.330-51; color map, pics and drawings. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 16:07:36 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: idea (fwd) tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl writes: > From pop.stud.let.ruu.nl!ruulch.let.ruu.nl!tagdi Thu Jan 12 11:47:47 1995 > X-Nupop-Charset: English > Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 21:06:06 CST > From: tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl > MMDF-Warning: Parse error in original version of preceding line at cruzio.cru zio.com > Sender: tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl > Message-Id: <75968.tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl> > To: joemoore@cruzio.com > Subject: idea > > could you send this message to geodisc . i could not get there. > suggestion. > any body is wellecom in discusing pages from 480 to 600 in syn 1 . > 20 pages at the time. list the pargraph nummber. > this could be done in > quetions or just short explination. > anything about radiation also wellcomed. > try to be economical > it takes time to grasp the ideas fully. > it takes time for the material to sink. > .- > -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 16:08:57 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY BOOKS IN PRINT According to 'Books In Print' 1992-93, the following books by or about Bucky were in print: T I T L E AUTHOR PUBLISHER FORM A Fuller Explanation Edmondson Birkhauser hard Artifacts of R.B.Fuller, vol 1 Marlin, ed Garland hard Artifacts of R.B.Fuller, vol 2 Marlin, ed Garland hard Artifacts of R.B.Fuller, vol 3 Marlin, ed Garland hard Artifacts of R.B.Fuller, vol 4 Marlin, ed Garland hard Buckminster Fuller Pawley Taplinger hard Buckminster Fuller's Universe Seiden Plenum hard Cosmography R.B.Fuller Macmillan hard Critical Path Fuller & Kuromiya St.Martin paper GRUNCH of Giants R.B.Fuller St.Martin paper Humans in Universe Fuller & Dil Mouton hard Inventions: Patented Works of RBF R.B.Fuller St.Martin paper Operating Manual for Spcshp Earth R.B.Fuller Viking-Penguin paper Operating Manual for SS Earth R.B.Fuller Amereon Ltd. hard R. Buckminster Fuller Potter Silver Burdett paper R.Buckminster Fuller on Education Wagschal & Kahn,ed U of Mass Press paper R.B.F, Architect:20yrs of Reviews Casper Vance Biblios paper Synergetics R.B.Fuller Macmillan paper Tetrascroll R.B.Fuller St.Martin paper PS: When looking in 'Books in Print' search for Fuller under both "author" and "subject". -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 16:24:18 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: TRADE ROUTES For those interested in the old trade routes from the Orient to Europe, see the following articles which have good color pictures, drawings and maps: "The Treasure of Porto Santo", National Geographic, 8-75, pp.260-75 "In the Wake of Sindbad", National Geographic, 7-82, pp.2-41 "The Queen of Textiles", National Geographic, 1-84, pp.3-49 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 17:48:35 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY VIDEO The hour-long biography of Fuller that appeared on PBS sometime on or before the Summer of 1991 was produced by the Simon & Goodman Picture Co. run by Karen Goodman and Kirk Simon. Their address is 2095 Broadway, Suite 402 New York, NY 10023 phone 212-721-0919 fax 212-721-0922 I have not verified the above info; it appeared in the Summer 91 Trimtab nl. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 01:53:09 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kenneth Firestein Organization: University of California, Davis Subject: Essay by Fuller I am looking for an essay which Buckminster Fuller wrote.... in which he talks about seafaring vessals as having long used design features which were very sophisticated and eligant since they travelled as space voyagers might today - with no access to normal supplies and resources. So they had to take everything with them... and they had to conserve as much as they could of their resoruces.... And there was little room for waste. So - I am looking for this essay to re-read. It also, I think, mentioned railroads as instruments for the development in America of this country. Railroads were compared to seagoing vessals. Can anyone help? Thanks. -- Kenneth L. Firestein, Data Services Librarian, UC Davis General Library, Davis, CA 95616; klfirestein@ucdavis.edu; (916)752-1678; fax (916)752-4718 The universe rings - With milky way music - Our blue planet sings ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:43:27 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: ULTRA-MICRO COMPUTER Fuller envisioned an ultimate microcomputer where each electron potentially represented a 0 or a 1. Two articles relevant to that design have come to my attention: "Japanese Chipmakers Make a Splash in San Francisco", Business Week magazine, 2-28-94, page 69; Fujitsu showed a quantum-effect transistor; "Who Says Science Has to Pay Off Fast?", Business Week magazine, 3-21-94, pages 110-11; Japanese gov funding 9 quantum-effect projects. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:27:01 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller In-Reply-To: ; from "Kenneth Firestein" at Jan 13, 95 1:53 am Kenneth Firestein writes: > > I am looking for an essay which Buckminster Fuller wrote.... in which he > talks about seafaring vessals as having long used design features which > were very sophisticated and eligant since they travelled as space > voyagers might today - with no access to normal supplies and resources. > So they had to take everything with them... and they had to conserve as > much as they could of their resoruces.... And there was little room for > waste. > > So - I am looking for this essay to re-read. It also, I think, mentioned > railroads as instruments for the development in America of this country. > Railroads were compared to seagoing vessals. > > > Can anyone help? > > Thanks. > > -- > > Kenneth L. Firestein, Data Services Librarian, UC Davis General Library, > Davis, CA 95616; klfirestein@ucdavis.edu; (916)752-1678; fax (916)752-4718 > The universe rings - With milky way music - Our blue planet sings > .- > That's a toughie! Off the top of my head Tetrascroll comes to mind--Chapters 9 thru 21--in which Bucky reconstructs history according to his information (which I think is correct). I don't specifically remember the points that you refer to, but there's a lot of material and most of it I read quite a long time ago. This is a perfect example of why we need a Master Bucky Index covering all his books, articles, etc. I'll brouse through the material I have and see if I can come up with a more specific reference. Maybe someone else on the BuckyNet can be of more help. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 03:11:19 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller >I am looking for an essay which Buckminster Fuller wrote.... in which he >talks about seafaring vessals as having long used design features which I'm almost positive this is *not* the one you're looking for, but Bucky goes into great detail about seafaring vessels and the sophistication of ancient maritime man in _Tetrascroll_. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 03:26:04 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller >This is a perfect example of why we need a Master Bucky Index covering all his >books, articles, etc. It would also be nice have have etexts of Fuller classics, or at least of the out-of-print stuff. . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 03:31:27 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Bucky and the Beats I understand that RBF once met with some of the writers of the Beat generation -- Allen Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs and (maybe) Gregory Corso. I know nothing more about this encounter, except that it was taped (whether video or just audio I don't know). Does anyone out there know anything at all about this? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 08:15:00 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "H. Jeffrey Rosen" Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller RE: E-text classics by Fuller ... Does anyone know whether there's a text file of Bucky's monster telegram to Sen. Ed Muskie? If not, I'm prepared to create one. Jeff Rosen Anticipatory Design Scientist CARBON60@AOL.COM ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 08:52:22 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Cook Subject: Re: Bucky and the Beats I dont know about Buckys contacts with the Beats but I do know that his earliest supporters and perhaps most important audiences were artists/writers, creative people who he hung around with in Greenwich Village in the 30s. This pattern continues with his involvement and work at Black Mountain College in NC in the late 40s and early 50s. In 1971, I saw a fascinating film called _Breathing Together_ which featured 60s countercultural people (including Ginsburg) and Bucky. This is part of the lesser known part of Buckys life/work. Good luck in your research. Bob Cook bcook@pimacc.pima.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 10:24:03 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Domaingue Subject: Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game In-Reply-To: <199501131408.IAA22286@grunt.ksu.ksu.edu> The January 1995 issue of WIRED has an article on people (mostly men age 30-40) involved in playing with networked flight simulators ["Search and Destroy: Inside the Metal-Jacketed Minds of Flight-Sim Heads" by John Shirley]. Evidently the experience can be quite compelling with many people involved in air battles and creations of historical events like the Battle of Britian in WWII. Even with steep learning curves, the more accurate the simulation the more respected it is. Could someone learn to fly a Spitfire from these simulations? The article started me wondering if it would be possible to create a networked simulation for the World Game which has the same allure as these flight simulators. People will spend a great deal of their time developing their simulation skills for flying and hunting down enemy aircraft. Could the World Game be as compulsive to play with the added benefit that after playing it in simulated mode you would develop the skills to "fly" in the real world? What do you think? Robert Domaingue Coordinator of Mediated Learning Kansas State University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 11:40:51 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Bucky and the Beats >I dont know about Buckys contacts with the Beats but I do know that his >earliest supporters and perhaps most important audiences were artists/writers, >creative people who he hung around with in Greenwich Village in the 30s. This >pattern continues with his involvement and work at Black Mountain College in >NC in the late 40s and early 50s. John Cage was always a Bucky supporter; his book _Silence_ is dedicated to him and he's been quoted as saying something to the effect of "nobody reads Fuller, but his work is important"; there's also a long poem written by Cage -- jeez the exact title eludes me right now but its something like (anyone?) "In case you want to improve things: you will only make matters worse" -- with a lot of references to Fuller and his work. > In 1971, I saw a fascinating film called _Breathing Together_ which >featured 60s countercultural people (including Ginsburg) and Bucky. >This is part of the lesser known part of Buckys life/work. And for me, part of the most fascinating. I will certainly be watching out for this one... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:00:24 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller In-Reply-To: ; from "H. Jeffrey Rosen" at Jan 13, 95 8:15 am H. Jeffrey Rosen writes: > > RE: E-text classics by Fuller ... Does anyone know whether there's > a text file of Bucky's monster telegram to Sen. Ed Muskie? If not, I'm > prepared to create one. > > Jeff Rosen > Anticipatory Design Scientist > CARBON60@AOL.COM > .- > To the best of my knowledge an electronic version of the telegram doesn't exist. You will be performing a great public service by putting it on the net. Now that I think about it, there is some of Bucky's material that is already in the public domain--his several testamonies before several Congressional committees, for example. There may be others. Any volunteers out there in Buckyland?? PS: All of his patents--both text and graphics--are in the public domain! I think at least the text is already in electronic form. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:03:14 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Bucky and the Beats In-Reply-To: ; from "Bob Cook" at Jan 13, 95 8:52 am Bob Cook writes: > > I dont know about Buckys contacts with the Beats but I do know that his > earliest supporters and perhaps most important audiences were artists/writers, > creative people who he hung around with in Greenwich Village in the 30s. This > pattern continues with his involvement and work at Black Mountain College in > NC in the late 40s and early 50s. In 1971, I saw a fascinating film called > _Breathing Together_ which featured 60s countercultural people (including > Ginsburg) and Bucky. This is part of the lesser known part of Buckys > life/work. > Good luck in your research. > > Bob Cook > bcook@pimacc.pima.edu > .- > Anybody have a detailed reference on the above film? -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 12:08:38 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game >The article started me wondering if it would be possible to create a >networked simulation for the World Game which has the same allure as >these flight simulators. [...] >Could the World Game be as compulsive to play with the added >benefit that after playing it in simulated mode you would develop the >skills to "fly" in the real world? What do you think? Relating to this is the argument some people present me when they find out I'm a pacifist. "How do you explain the popularity of violent games?" they ask. "Violence on tv isn't forced on people; it _sells_, or they wouldn't _show_ it -- people _like_ violence--" or "What about kids' shows like Power Rangers, with all the violence? It's appealing to kids--" I think the popularity of non-shoot-em-up simulations like SimCity and SimEarth will attest to the fact that these things could be compulsive to play. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 12:21:30 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game In-Reply-To: <199501131656.AA02766@charon.osc.on.ca> (message from Robert Domaingue on Fri, 13 Jan 1995 10:24:03 -0600) > "RD" == Robert Domaingue writes: RD> The January 1995 issue of WIRED has an article on people (mostly RD> men age 30-40) involved in playing with networked flight RD> simulators ... RD> The article started me wondering if it would be possible to create RD> a networked simulation for the World Game which has the same RD> allure as these flight simulators. People will spend a great deal RD> of their time developing their simulation skills for flying and RD> hunting down enemy aircraft. Could the World Game be as compulsive RD> to play with the added benefit that after playing it in simulated RD> mode you would develop the skills to "fly" in the real world? What RD> do you think? If this can be built for SGI machines (ie. displayed as a Performer file) I can offer my 1.5 Mb/s T1 connection, a large-screen projector and the host site --- I am eager to do _something_ for July, but have a severe shortage of manpower and funding and a shared-virtual-worldgame would fit the bill perfectly :) Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 ------------------------------- What would you do with an extra hour? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:09:24 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game In-Reply-To: ; from "Robert Domaingue" at Jan 13, 95 10:24 am Robert Domaingue writes: > > The January 1995 issue of WIRED has an article on people (mostly men age > 30-40) involved in playing with networked flight simulators ["Search and > Destroy: Inside the Metal-Jacketed Minds of Flight-Sim Heads" by John > Shirley]. Evidently the experience can be quite compelling with many > people involved in air battles and creations of historical events like > the Battle of Britian in WWII. Even with steep learning curves, the more > accurate the simulation the more respected it is. Could someone learn to > fly a Spitfire from these simulations? > > The article started me wondering if it would be possible to create a > networked simulation for the World Game which has the same allure as > these flight simulators. People will spend a great deal of their time > developing their simulation skills for flying and hunting down enemy > aircraft. Could the World Game be as compulsive to play with the added > benefit that after playing it in simulated mode you would develop the > skills to "fly" in the real world? What do you think? > > Robert Domaingue > Coordinator of Mediated Learning > Kansas State University > .- > YES, YES, YES! This is the way to go. I can't wait to be able to play the world game from my little office at home. No traveling great distances, no hotel bills, no restaurant bills, no tuition fees, etc, etc, etc. Anyone could play from anywhere in the world any time. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:56:59 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY MUSIC QUOTE: Joe Years ago I was hanging out in Minneapolis (there are several community coffee shops there-you order your own food and bus your own dishes). There was a magizene called "rockbill". It showed composer Andrew Culver with Bucky Fuller. They had been travelling around and Culver had been doing a tensegrity reprentation sonically Culver worked with Cage John Cage died Andrew is no longer at New York address. I have been trying to find this stuff for years. About three year ago Arthur Loeb told me I could find this work on tensegrity sound. The World Music Archives Wesleyan College is where he said I could find them . I've had no luck. As you seem to be in on this electronic survey stuff, I was wondering if you could take a spin through the inventory that you could imagine might muster this work and where I can listen to it. thanks, nicku END QUOTE. Nick, I've spent parts of several days trying to track the above info. The following is what I found in the Library of Congress: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. LCCN: 87-644887 ISSN: 0890-460X RockBill. [N.Y., i.e. New York, N.Y. : Rave Communications, Inc., v. : ill. ; 23 cm. LC CALL NUMBER: ML3533.8 .R64 FREQUENCY: Monthly VARIANT TITLES: Rock bill RockBill magazine SUBJECTS: Rock music--United States--History and criticism--Periodicals. NOTES: Description based on: Vol. 5, no. 7 (July 1986); title from cover. Issues for called also LC SERIAL RECORD ENTRY: RockBill. KEY TITLE: RockBill ISSN: 0890-460X GEOG. AREA CODE: n-us--- DEWEY DEC: 784.5/4/00973 dc19 LCCN: 87-644887 MN OTHER SYSTEM NO.: (OCoLC)14256661 OTHER LOCATIONS: DLC ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know when they started publishing and if they have stopped, but I know that they were publishing in 1983 because I have two citations in my database. Can you narrow it down to a particular year? Couldn't find anything under "Andrew Culver". Are you sure of the spelling of his name? I also searched a bunch of music databases to no avail. Maybe there is someone out there in Buckyland that can be of more help. I'm still pretty new at all this, especially searching libraries with all their weird commands! Didn't see anything on Wesleyan College. Are they on the Internet? Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 17:14:24 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Company, Inc. Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller Michael Stutz wrote: > > >This is a perfect example of why we need a Master Bucky Index covering all his > >books, articles, etc. > > It would also be nice have have etexts of Fuller classics, or at least > of the out-of-print stuff. . . I have scanned in and Optically Character Recognized (OCRed) the introduction to _Inventions_, which was an essay called ``Guinea Pig B.'' It's on the World Wide Web at http://vaxa.stevens-tech.edu:8000/crywalt/inventions/bucky.html If you don't have access to the WWW (get it!) I can email the files to you (it may take me a bit to filter out the HTML. I wonder if I kept the plaintext around anywhere). As I've pointed out before, my copyright violation of _Synergetics_ is about halfway through the scanning phase. I expect the finish it up Real Soon Now. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 10:26:54 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Eric J Morris / EarthSource Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller >I am looking for an essay which Buckminster Fuller wrote.... in which he >talks about seafaring vessels as having long used design features which >were very sophisticated and eligant since they travelled as space >voyagers might today - with no access to normal supplies and resources. >So they had to take everything with them... and they had to conserve as >much as they could of their resources.... And there was little room for >waste. > >So - I am looking for this essay to re-read. It also, I think, mentioned >railroads as instruments for the development in America of this country. >Railroads were compared to seagoing vessals. > > Can anyone help? Yes Kenneth, Bucky speaks of the development of the "first world men" or "Great Pirates", the seafaring adventurers who first mastered the "natural laws" of the high seas in 'Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth' - Chapter1: 'Comprehensive Propensities', and Chapter 2: 'Origins of Specialization'. See also 'Ideas and Integrities' - Chapter 6: 'Fluid Geography'. In this essay Bucky speaks of the railroads evolving out of seagoing technology. Happy reading... @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ We are Spherical Visions / EarthSource, creators of the EarthBall - the world's first 3D 'reality globe'. Our home planet as seen from Space! ...over half-a-million served ... @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ "Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free. Dizzy with eternity. Paint it with a skin of sky, brush in some clouds and sea. Call it home for you and me. @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 11:43:32 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game A similar idea to the "Flight Simulator" concept that is close to my heart is to build a mega-version of the very popular game "Civilization" that allows the managment of land resources and improvement, the managment of construction projects. It's all at a trivial level of course in that game, but if I had spent all the hours that I spent playing it on designing non-spherical domes, I bet I'd really have something. I don't know why we could allow physical design of building for different climates, simulate energy usage accurately, pay for transportation costs etc. As it became more complex it would become less like a game, and more like a real design system. Housing design could be broken out as a separate module, played as a game, the goal being to design the cheapest house for Location X under Constraint Y and Z. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 18:44:24 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Company, Inc. Subject: Re: Network Robert Domaingue wrote: > > Could the World Game be as compulsive to play with the added > benefit that after playing it in simulated mode you would develop the > skills to "fly" in the real world? What do you think? I have often thought this would be an excellent idea. I've spent many an hour playing Sid Meier's Civilization and my only disappointment with the game is that it's single-player. DOOM is another very popular multi-player game which is a lot of fun. But -- especially after having seen Oliver Stone's ``Natural Born Killers'' of which the last hour or so resembles DOOM -- I've been disturbed by its violence content. This set me to wondering at how videogames grew from very abstract boop-boop games of no certain metaphor which were non-violent into the only two types of games currently being made: combat and sports. I then tried to come up with an interesting and involving game concept that didn't involve violence. As you might imagine, it's quite difficult. The only other type of game not of the combat/sports variety is the world simulation variety: SimCity, SimEarth, Civilization, and so on. But the Sim* games are very simplistic, and Civilization is still largely based on combat -- albeit very abstracted -- and technology is generally used as a means of developing better weaponry. Which brought me to World Game. I think it would be worth a lot of effort to bring some version of World Gaming to the arena of networked gaming. I'd also be willing to do a lot of that effort: I'm a computer programmer and I have a fair amount of artistic/design experience (and perhaps talent, though I'm certainly not the one to ask about that) and I commonly mix the two. (Another good person to work with would be ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 18:49:54 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Company, Inc. Subject: Re: Network Robert Domaingue wrote: > > Could the World Game be as compulsive to play with the added > benefit that after playing it in simulated mode you would develop the > skills to "fly" in the real world? What do you think? I have often thought this would be an excellent idea. I've spent many an hour playing Sid Meier's Civilization and my only disappointment with the game is that it's single-player. DOOM is another very popular multi-player game which is a lot of fun. But -- especially after having seen Oliver Stone's ``Natural Born Killers'' of which the last hour or so resembles DOOM -- I've been disturbed by its violence content. This set me to wondering at how videogames grew from very abstract boop-boop games of no certain metaphor which were non-violent into the only two types of games currently being made: combat and sports. I then tried to come up with an interesting and involving game concept that didn't involve violence. As you might imagine, it's quite difficult. The only other type of game not of the combat/sports variety is the world simulation variety: SimCity, SimEarth, Civilization, and so on. But the Sim* games are very simplistic, and Civilization is still largely based on combat -- albeit very abstracted -- and technology is generally used as a means of developing better weaponry. Which brought me to World Game. I think it would be worth a lot of effort to bring some version of World Gaming to the arena of networked gaming. I'd also be willing to do a lot of that effort: I'm a computer programmer and I have a fair amount of artistic/design experience (and perhaps talent, though I'm certainly not the one to ask about that) and I commonly mix the two. (Another good person to work with would be the guy who did the illustrations for Kirby's Web site -- Richard Hawkins). What I don't have are the details necessary to build the game upon. If we could find them, whatever they may be, I'd be willing to be part of the team working on bringing this idea to fruition. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com P.S: Sorry about the previously truncated post. As always, I am trying to find the perfect method of reading this group/list, and I accidentally hit the wrong button while using my newest method. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 14:21:00 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "H. Jeffrey Rosen" Subject: Re: Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game It's more likely that a simulated World Game would achieve greater learning results than a Spitfire simulator, because distractions, i.e. non-mission-related events, would be easier to program and achieve. During development of the Navy's T45 training system, I realized that the finest videodisc support and computer based training couldn't effect the same result as actual flight time with its attendant noise, vibration, etc. (multiply by a factor of 10 for the Spitfire). A design team with a little imagination could surely produce effective feedback for a World Game simulation. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 15:41:16 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Middleton Subject: Re: Bucky and the Beats In-Reply-To: <199501130843.DAA13933@mailbox.syr.edu> On Fri, 13 Jan 1995, Michael Stutz wrote: > I understand that RBF once met with some of the writers of the Beat > generation -- Allen Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs and (maybe) Gregory > Corso. I know nothing more about this encounter, except that it was > taped (whether video or just audio I don't know). Does anyone out > there know anything at all about this? > I also saw a video tape (maybe 20 years ago) of a conversation between Bucky and Maharishi Yogi. Facinating! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 13:37:39 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Eric J Morris / EarthSource Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller >I am looking for an essay which Buckminster Fuller wrote.... in which he >talks about seafaring vessels as having long used design features which >were very sophisticated and eligant since they travelled as space >voyagers might today - with no access to normal supplies and resources. >So they had to take everything with them... and they had to conserve as >much as they could of their resources.... And there was little room for >waste. > >So - I am looking for this essay to re-read. It also, I think, mentioned >railroads as instruments for the development in America of this country. >Railroads were compared to seagoing vessals. > > Can anyone help? Yes Kenneth, Bucky speaks of the development of the "first world men" or "Great Pirates", the seafaring adventurers who first mastered the "natural laws" of the high seas in 'Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth' - Chapter1: 'Comprehensive Propensities', and Chapter 2: 'Origins of Specialization'. See also 'Ideas and Integrities' - Chapter 6: 'Fluid Geography'. In this essay Bucky speaks of the railroads evolving out of seagoing technology. Happy reading... @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ We are Spherical Visions / EarthSource, creators of the EarthBall - the world's first 3D 'reality globe'. Our home planet as seen from Space! ...over half-a-million served ... @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ Check out our developing WWW site at: http://www.pacificrim.net:80/~eric/ and (soon you can) see Earthballs in orbit aboard the NASA space shuttle Atlantis.@@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ "Picture a bright blue ball just spinning, spinning free. Dizzy with eternity. Paint it with a skin of sky, brush in some clouds and sea. Call it home for you and me. @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 16:41:36 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond Subject: Re: a little contradiction > Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 22:18:13 GMT > Subject: Re: a little contradiction > : >No its not. Lying, cheating, and stealing is what made him a > : >billionaire. Taking advantage of a new age where the people > > : I agree totally. Consult _Hackers_ by Steven Levy for an early > : history of how Gates did it. Corporate-made software, by definition, > > Excuse me? Bill-Bashing is fashionable, yes, and as he's the (mostly) owner > of a corporation producing a lot of CRAP, in some cases justified. However, Hey - can we stop this? I appologize for getting these folks off on a tangent. I don't know why - but the meer mention of B.G. gets me A.F.U. (all fired up). Butt - enough is enough - lets drop it - ok? - and get back to all this confusing chatter about synergenics. Harry *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way shape or form including tetrahedral. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 14:27:32 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: TENSEGRITY MUSICAL INSTRUMENT Would you believe I happened to find an article in the Summer (Jul-Sep) 1984 issue of the 'Buckminster Fuller Institute Newsletter' on pages 7-8 that mentions a performance put on by an Andrew Culver on May 12 at Wesleyan University, Middletown, CT. It was at the end of a 2-day event which included a panel of speakers (Loeb, Brown, Goodwin, and Tyng). They showed "tapes" (video, audio?), Edmondson put on a Synergetics workshop, and Culver played his music on his "Tensegrity Sound Sculpture" instrument, a 8-10 foot sphere. Rockbill probably reported on the event the next month, June 1984. By the way, I found in the Jan-Feb 1984 issue of the BFI Newsletter in an article called "A Synergetics Study Group In New York" mention of the fact that Rockbill had 500,000 readers and was distributed to 92 music clubs nationwide. The editor's name was Bob O'Brien. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 18:47:22 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gee Pi Bee Subject: Re: Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 13 Jan 1995 10:24:03 -0600 from Would somebody please have Chris Rywalt call me directly at (216) 929-8900... I have details for this idea like you folks would'nt believe... If anyone else is a programmer/renderer please call too, ask for GB concerning the BuckyNet etc., you can also zap me direct at the adress listed Whirled Peas Cats :) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 17:13:03 MDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ken G. Brown" Organization: BEST Online Subject: Space Frames Structures, Domes Etc. While rooting through my Geodesic related files I found the following interesting references: ----------------- A paper re: Dome software called DANDE (Dome ANalysis and DEsign), Computer-Aided Design, volume 9, number 3, july 1977: TITLE: Computer-aided design of framed dome structures with interactive graphics- R. B. Haber, T.A.Mutryn, J F Abel and D P Greenberg ABSTRACT: A system for the automatic generation and display of framed domes is presented. The designer can interactively modify the structural topoloy, as well as specify member properties, support conditions and loadings, while simultaneously viewing the dome structure from any view-point in 3-dimensional space. Analysis capabilities provide rapid feedback of the structural implications of the design. ----------------- Some papers of interest that I came across some time ago in the conference publication from the Third International Conference on Space Structures (published by Elsevier Applied Science Publishers, London and New York: TITLE: Structural Configurations from Geometric Potential - J.W.Butterworth ABSTRACT: A potential function is defined for a set of nodes lying in a surface. Moving the nodes about on the surface until the potential is a minimum results in node positions which may be interconnected to create configurations of optimum regularity. The concept is illustrated using a spherical surface but may be applied to more complex surfaces. TITLE: Optimization of Spherical Networks for Geodesic Domes - T. Tarnai ABSTRACT: This paper investigates how a triangular network of a given topology can be constructed on the sphere so that the number of different edge-lengths is a minimum. To find the networks containing even minimum number of different triangles and different nodes a combinatorial approach is used. If the number of triangles in the network is great, the combinatorial way becomes difficult. For these cases a new subdivision method is presented. TITLE: FORMEX processing of Symmetric Structural Systems- Jaime S. Sanchez Alvarez ABSTRACT: The present paper shows a way in which the mathematical system known as FORMEX Algebra can be used to represent and process structural systems, which can be symmetrically subdivided in a number of sub-structures. Various interconnection patterns are represented within a general scheme of FORMEX formulation, which is also related to a set of geometric particulars. FORMEX formulation, due to it's numerical nature,can be conveniently used to implement processes, such as data generation and graphics, in the computer aided analysis and design of space structures. ----------------- And, from Int J. Solids(note- the s at the end of Solids is there on the photocopy) Structures, 1978 Vol. 14, pp 161-172, Pergamon Press Printed in Great Britain TITLE: Buckminster Fuller's "Tensegrity" Structures" and Clerk Maxwell's Rules for the construction of Stiff Frames- C.R. Calladine ABSTRACT: Maxwell has shown that b bars assembled into a frame having j joints wouod, in general, be simply stiff if b=3j-6. Some of Buckminster Fuller's "Tensegrity Structures have fewer bars than are necessary to satisfy Maxwell's rule, and yet are not "mechanisms" as one might expect, but are actually stiff structures. Maxwell anticipates special cases of this sort, ans states that their stiffness will "be of a low order". In fact, the conditions under which Maxwell's exceptional cases occur also permit at least one state of "self stress" in the frame. Linear algebra enables us to find the number of "incipient" modes of low-order stiffness of the frame in terms of the numbers of bars, joints and independent states of self-stress. Self-stress in the frame has the effect of imparting first-order stiffness to the frame, and it seems from experiments that a single state of self-stress can stiffen a large number of modes. It is this factor which Fuller exploits to make satisfactory structures. ----------------- And another Publication has many articles on space frames and triangulated structures: TITLE: Space Grid Structures- John Borrego Part I - Flat Skeletal Double-Layer Grids (mentions Octetruss, Triodetics etc.) Part II - Space Grid Geometries, Two-Way Space Grids Also a section on Three -Way True Space Grids, Differential grids. Bibliography has mega references to related info along with several references to Fuller. ----------------- One more thing, the University of Surrey, in Guildford England has a department that has hosted an International Conference on Space Structures and has done a lot of work with automatically generating and analyzing grid structures, even a specialized grid definition language. Two names associated with the work are Z.S.Makowski and H.Nooshin. The proceedings from these conferences have many, many papers of interest to anyone interested in Geodesics, and more generally Space Frame design, flat, singly and doubly curved. A good place to start looking for interesting stuff. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 17:53:34 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: ULTRA-MICRO COMPUTER X-To: rjbono@aol.com In-Reply-To: <9501132254.AA08536@newsbf02.news.aol.com>; from "rjbono@aol.com" at Jan 13, 95 5:54 pm rjbono@aol.com writes: > > Joe, > > Thanks for the heads up on the quantum device articles. I'll be sure to > look them up. > > Rick "Dreaming of a better machine" Bono > .- > I found another one: Popular Science, 1993 (don't know what month), "Memory Chips: Moving Beyond the Silicon"; Talks about research at Bell Communications Research in New Jersey. Controlling the spin of electrons--"up" and "down" electrons represent 1 and 0. Article appeared in Computers & Software section. Also, I found this reference but don't have a date: 'Computing Routines for Geodesic Structures' by R.Lewontin, Univ of Chicago -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 22:27:57 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: WORLD GAME For those interested in the World Game: 'Steps to World Game' by Michael Ben-Eli, The Design Science Institute, 1974, Philadelphia, PA. (the DSI no longer exists). 'Inventory of World Resources, Human Trends and Needs: Document 1--The World Game' by R.Buckminster Fuller, 1971. Published by the World Resources Inventory, Southern Illinois Univ, Carbondale, IL. Complete "How To" manual including flow charts. Excellent! 'Environmental Design Science Primer' by Howard Brown, Robert Cook and Medard Gabel, 1978. Published by the Advocate Press, inc. Originally produced by Earth Metabolic Design (predecesor of the World Game Institute) under a grant from the Office of Environmental Education, Dept of Health, Education and Welfare. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 19:44:27 +0100 Reply-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gerald de Jong Organization: Tacit Software Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller >It would also be nice have have etexts of Fuller classics, or at least >of the out-of-print stuff. . . seconded! absolutely! -- gerald de jong, rotterdam. "reality is a special case" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 01:53:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller >@@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ We are >Spherical Visions / EarthSource, creators of the EarthBall - the world's >first 3D 'reality globe'. Our home planet as seen from Space! ...over >half-a-million served ... @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ "Picture a Just what does your company do/make? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 02:29:03 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Bucky and the Beats >> I understand that RBF once met with some of the writers of the Beat >> generation -- Allen Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs and (maybe) Gregory >> Corso. I know nothing more about this encounter, except that it was >> taped (whether video or just audio I don't know). Does anyone out >I also saw a video tape (maybe 20 years ago) of a conversation between >Bucky and Maharishi Yogi. Facinating! To get ahold of these tapes! I *really* want to see them. You guys probably know about this one but in October of '81 he met with Indira Gandhi. He presented her this poem (I got it from _Humans In Universe_) and a completely WILD illustration of a tetrahedron being unfolded and this writing (his was all upper-case): Shiva = Envergy divergent as radiation Vishnu = Energy convergent as matter Inorganic & organic Brahmaa Metaphysical comprehension Love Wisdom Initiative Competence Tetrahedron = Minimum omni-symetric structural system in Universe 4th triangle = human experience CHATURAANAN is a Sanskrit word = Tetrahedron or Brahmaa [here's the poem] COSMIC PLURALITY Presented to Indira Gandhi [yin-yang symbol, identical to the one in Synergetics, p. 692, but all in white] Environment to each must be All there is, that isn't me. Universe in turn must be All that isn't me AND ME. Since I only see inside of me What brain imagines outside me, It seems to be you may be me. If that is so, there's only we. [draw- Me and we, too ing of Which love makes three, a tet- Universe rahed- Perme-embracing ron] It-Them-You-and-We New Delhi October 8, 1981 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 02:38:19 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Network > games of no certain metaphor which were non-violent into the only two > types of games currently being made: combat and sports. I then tried > to come up with an interesting and involving game concept that didn't > involve violence. >As you might imagine, it's quite difficult. The only other type of game not There's a game called Alpha Waves that came out in 1990 I think, that's very fun to play and non-violent. It's sort of like a vr-type game where you're a geometrical figure and you maneuver through rooms of other geometrical figures and lots of open spaces -- some of the rooms are quite tall with little virtual "steps" in them, and when you traverse them the animation is very convincing [must be good assembly code ;-) ]. Its nothing like today's games graphics-wise, but I find it fun to play. And driving simulators. Out Run (arcade) and Stunts (PC) are two that I really like. Relatively nonviolent (if you crash you die, but theres no murder). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 09:18:09 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: BUCKY MUSIC Joe Moore (joemoore@CRUZIO.COM) wrote: > Maybe there is someone out there in Buckyland that can be of more help. I'm > still pretty new at all this, especially searching libraries with all their > weird commands! Didn't see anything on Wesleyan College. Are they on the > Internet? Try gopher veronica.scs.unr.edu. I don't have time to research this, but this is a nice hook into libraries on the net. And more. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 09:41:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Network Chris Rywalt (crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com) wrote: > Which brought me to World Game. I think it would be worth a lot of effort > to bring some version of World Gaming to the arena of networked > gaming. I'd also be willing to do a lot of that effort: I'm a > computer programmer and I have a fair amount of artistic/design > experience (and perhaps talent, though I'm certainly not the one > to ask about that) and I commonly mix the two. (Another good person > to work with would be the guy who did the illustrations for Kirby's > Web site -- Richard Hawkins). > What I don't have are the details necessary to build the game upon. If > we could find them, whatever they may be, I'd be willing to be part > of the team working on bringing this idea to fruition. Probably a role-playing game like the World Game Institute's real (non- virtual) game. So something like Dungeons and Dragons. I think MUDs could be something to use as an example for design. Unfortunately, except for chess, I rigorously avoid all games and so know nothing about D & D or MUDs. I'll look for MUD FAQs now that you've peaked my interest. ... A nice cosmic accounting based game might be nice: Like scores are in terms of joules and eco-points and happiness-points (earned by doing someone a favor) also count. I like the idea of role-playing as janitors, street sweepers &etc and winning! Each player might have dozens of characters that she "plays." The research-intensive part would be putting real statistics in the game ... to make it more realistic. I wonder if World Game Institute would be interested in putting their collected databases on-line? -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 12:23:11 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: BUCKY BOOKS IN PRINT X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Joe Moore" at Jan 12, 95 04:08:57 pm Rich-- If you have time, could you post this as a public message on the FIX board. I would, but I am not quite sure I know an easy way of doing it. --Kiyoshi Kuromiya > > According to 'Books In Print' 1992-93, the following books by or about Bucky > were in print: > > T I T L E AUTHOR PUBLISHER FORM > > A Fuller Explanation Edmondson Birkhauser hard > > Artifacts of R.B.Fuller, vol 1 Marlin, ed Garland hard > Artifacts of R.B.Fuller, vol 2 Marlin, ed Garland hard > Artifacts of R.B.Fuller, vol 3 Marlin, ed Garland hard > Artifacts of R.B.Fuller, vol 4 Marlin, ed Garland hard > > Buckminster Fuller Pawley Taplinger hard > > Buckminster Fuller's Universe Seiden Plenum hard > > Cosmography R.B.Fuller Macmillan hard > > Critical Path Fuller & Kuromiya St.Martin paper > > GRUNCH of Giants R.B.Fuller St.Martin paper > > Humans in Universe Fuller & Dil Mouton hard > > Inventions: Patented Works of RBF R.B.Fuller St.Martin paper > > Operating Manual for Spcshp Earth R.B.Fuller Viking-Penguin paper > Operating Manual for SS Earth R.B.Fuller Amereon Ltd. hard > > R. Buckminster Fuller Potter Silver Burdett paper > > R.Buckminster Fuller on Education Wagschal & Kahn,ed U of Mass Press paper > > R.B.F, Architect:20yrs of Reviews Casper Vance Biblios paper > > Synergetics R.B.Fuller Macmillan paper > > Tetrascroll R.B.Fuller St.Martin paper > > > PS: When looking in 'Books in Print' search for Fuller under both "author" > and "subject". > > -- > > JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 > 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 > CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 12:27:59 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: ARTICLES ABOUT BUCKY X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Joe Moore" at Jan 12, 95 08:40:42 am > > There's a company that does nothing but publish specialized bibliographies. > Their name is Vance Bibliographies and their address is P.O.Box 229, > Monticello, IL 61856. In March 1988 they published "Richard Buckminster > Fuller, Architect: Twenty Years of Journal Reviews". It contains 112 > references to articles about Bucky from 1967 till 1985. It's part of > their Architectural Series: #A 2004. > > > > -- > > JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 > 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 > CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 10:32:50 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Eric J Morris / Spherical Visions Subject: Re: Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game On Fri, 13 Jan 1995 Robert Domaingue "started wondering if it would be possible to create a networked simulation for the World Game which has the same allure as flight simulators." and Earthball Eric sez: Yes, an effective method to introduce & understand design science and comprehensive global envisioning may indeed be via these widely embraced popular modalities of flight simulators, networked games, interactive explorations, and such like. I've been developing global imagery for ten years, initially designing & creating zillions of WholeEarth Balls & Earthballs, the first 3D inflatable, satellite image derived, home planet reality globes. Currently we're compiling global weathersat imagery into dynamic spherical animations of Earth's cloudforms. From out yonder in deep space, the fluid patterns of the planet's atmosphere are a primary visual element, yet curiously lacking from most popular global representations. Although millions of humans have flown within the biosphere, only a few hundred have been privileged to fly beyond, into actual Earth orbit. That leaves nearly six billion humans who cannot likely expect to attain this lofty vantage point. Yet, we can develop tools enabling us all to become virtual astronauts, realizing a truly comprehensive perspective of Spaceship Earth. Through animated compositions of orbital, aerial, & land-based imaging, we can explore the diversity of our planet's biosphere and beyond, from the weightless free flight of an orbiting astronaut to the canyon soaring descent of a wild hawk. This sort of imagery could become an integral component of some kinda networked World Game, 'cyberexperienced' via 3D interactive animations within flat screen displays, various immersive displays, as well as true spherical displays similar to Bucky's brilliant Geoscope proposal. On behalf of us billions, I support the development of an Geospheric World Game, EarthOrbital Exploration, Cyberwinged Spherical Vision, whateverwecallit... with these tools we'll travel through and explore dimensions of reality well beyond our everyday capacity to apprehend. We'll experience the annual cycling of seasons, a ten-thousand year global ice age, or even the million years evolution of an entire ecosystem compressed into minutes. We'll approach Earth from deep space, seeing it as if for the first time, dropping into orbit, and freely flying around our wondrous world on a extraordinary evolutionary adventure, and them some. Sign me up, thanks..... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 15:47:13 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FLOATING OCEAN CITIES A while back someone expressed an interest in Bucky's Floating Tetrahedronal Ocean Cities. I found the following info: 'Triton City: A Prototype Floating Community' by Triton Foundation, Inc. Nov 1968. This 200+ page book is available from the U.S.Dept of Commerce, National Technical Information Service, 5285 Port Royal Rd, Springfield, VA 22161. Ask for document # PB 180-051/LC. Should cost less than $25 and since it was financed by the taxpayers, it is all PUBLIC DOMAIN including the drawings and models, etc. I understand the large model is in the Lyndon B. Johnson presidential library in Texas. Incidentally, I think the July 1969 issue of Popular Science magazine had an article about it, but I don't have the specific reference. There is a picture of the model on page 92 of the 7-94 Popular Science. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 20:13:58 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: TENSEGRITY MUSICAL INSTRUMENT X-To: Nick Consoletti In-Reply-To: ; from "Nick Consoletti" at Jan 14, 95 4:30 pm Nick Consoletti writes: > > Joe i want to play this out with my own understanding after building on old > i have good quess as he composed for John Cage > Of course someone else will help with formalism if emergence > Andrew culver had address in New YOrk city > Merc Cunningham whold no where to go for him > Is he still in N.Y. N. Y.? A phone call to Loeb I don't know? > take care nicku > .- > Nick, I'm taking the liberty of reposting your message to the Geodesic list. Maybe someone out there who is in to music would be able to help you track down Andrew Culver. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 14 Jan 1995 20:20:52 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKYBALLS Popular Science magazine featured Fullerenes on its cover of the Aug 1991 issue. Beautiful color graphic with an article called "Buckyball: The Magic Molecule" on pages 52-7 & 87; great color pictures and drawings; written in easy-to-understand layman's (generalist's) language. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 11:35:45 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: COMSAT MARINE SERVICES The following brief article appeared in 'Yachting' magazine (date and page unknown). Quote: COMSAT MARINE SERVICES Today yachts at sea can make phone calls, receive faxes, transfer computer data and even get the latest sports scores and stock market reports, thanks to COMSAT. The largest user of the Inmarsat satellite network, COMSAT links a ship's satellite communications terminal, satellites and the COMSAT Earth Station. Recently, COMSAT expanded its coverage to become the only Inmarsat provider to offer full service in oceans around the world. Another innovation that will appear in late 1991 is the introduction of COMSAT C-Link. Ideal for smaller yachts, C-Link offers two-way message communications using a small, affordable Inmarsat C satellite terminal. No matter what ocean your yacht may sail, thanks to COMSAT you will never be out of touch. End Quote. Now, all we need is a scientific house in which to put this stuff! -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 16:11:00 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Wenzel Subject: net flight sim/World Game Kirby Urner told me that WG Institute has a non-networked MAC implementation of World Game. Could it function as a front-end for a network event? Has anyone seen it, or does anyone know if the World Game Institute might already be developing something in this direction? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 18:14:42 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: net flight sim/World Game In-Reply-To: ; from "Steve Wenzel" at Jan 15, 95 4:11 pm Steve Wenzel writes: > > Kirby Urner told me that WG Institute has a non-networked MAC > implementation of World Game. Could it function as a front-end for a > network event? Has anyone seen it, or does anyone know if the World > Game Institute might already be developing something in this > direction? > .- > World Game is located at Drexel Univ, Philadelphia, PA. Their e-mail address is xtm00002@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu Their snail mail address is : The World Game Institute 3215 Race St. Philadelphia, PA 19104-2597 215-387-0220 phone 215-387-3009 fax Medard Gabel is the Director. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 18:19:29 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DYMAXION CAR The last I heard Bucky's Dymaxion Car was located at: Harrah's Automobile Museum Box 10 Reno, NV 89504 702-788-3242 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:27:21 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Heeney Subject: Re: WORLD GAME >For those interested in the World Game: > Joe Moore mentioned some World Game books, including some REALLY old ones. He omitted: Medard Gabel and the World Game Workshop. 1976. Energy, Earth and Everyone. Doubleday Anchor Medard Gabel and the World Game Workshop. 1976. Ho-Ping: Food for Everyone. Doubleday Anchor. I don't know, but doubt that these are still in print. They MIGHT still be available from the World Game Institute. ----------------------------------------------------------- David Heeney IndEco Strategic Consulting Inc Surfing the Web? try http:// www.io.org/~heeney ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 18:29:21 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SHELTER DATABASE Years ago the Buckminster Fuller Institute in LA compiled an interactive computer database which indexed and cross-referenced over 250 projects and designs of Bucky. It listed over 600 individuals and organizations associated with innovative work in shelter and housing. and it contained a list of over 150 articles and events dealing with Fuller's work in shelter. I have no idea if it has subsequently been updated and/or published. I assume it is in DBase format. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:33:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Heeney Subject: Re: net flight sim/World Game >Kirby Urner told me that WG Institute has a non-networked MAC >implementation of World Game. Could it function as a front-end for a >network event? Has anyone seen it, or does anyone know if the World >Game Institute might already be developing something in this >direction? > I don't think even they would call this "an implementation of World Game". When I last saw it, about a year ago, it was a combination of a database, and a tool for writing essays about making the world work. The essays were sent to the WGI, and the writer of the "best" one got a round-the-world airline ticket. I really wonder whether it is possible to have a computerized World Game, because so much of making the world work will depend on DESIGN, and necessarily cannot be fit into a computer program. (Not that I don't think modelling the world is a useful and informative exercise.) ----------------------------------------------------------- David Heeney IndEco Strategic Consulting Inc Surfing the Web? try http:// www.io.org/~heeney ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 15 Jan 1995 19:41:25 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DOME STUDY In 1954 the U.S.Marines did a 114 page study of Bucky's geodesic domes. Since it was paid for with public funds, the text, pictures and drawings are all in the public domain. It is entitled: 'Final Report: A Study of Shelter Logistics for Marine Corps Aviation' by Henry C. Lane Colonel, U. S. Marine Corps I'm not sure how a person could get a copy of this document. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 08:57:06 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: net flight sim/World Game In-Reply-To: <199501160303.AA11133@charon.osc.on.ca> (message from David Heeney on Sun, 15 Jan 1995 21:33:56 -0500) > "D" == David Heeney writes: D> I really wonder whether it is possible to have a computerized World D> Game, because so much of making the world work will depend on D> DESIGN, and necessarily cannot be fit into a computer program. (Not D> that I don't think modelling the world is a useful and informative D> exercise.) I don't think a computerized WorldGame should be a CD-ROM-style game limited to a single user simulation; if this were a networked, real-time simulation, the system could dole out the 'surprises' while on-line players could negotiate their deals toward their projections during the play periods and all pause for the media broadcasts. If it would fit the game, though, an on-line version using multiple internet comm tools (irc, web-pages, ftp &c) could support simultaneous media broadcasts and continual dealing, transfers of resources, updates of databases (just like the Real Thing :) Of the ideas so far, the MUD seems most appropriate with players taking their position as part of a nation (or assigned to a region based on the current on-line population) which adds another real dimension to the simulation: The constant flux of person-to-task matching! As people come on-line, they would take their tasks from a 'job-jar' and as people leave, their unfinished business would be returned to the pool of tasks for their region. Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 ------------------------------- What would you do with an extra hour? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 10:11:02 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DIGITAL SATELLITE TV The January 1995 issue of Popular Science magazine on pages 60-4 & 84 has an excellent article comparing the latest generation of digital satellite TV systems: cost, size, # of channels, features, etc. Now if I just had my little self-contained domette with my vertical takeoff run-about parked out front----sigh. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 12:51:04 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FULLER'S DRY TOILET A while back someone was asking about Fuller's dry toilet. The following is the ONLY source that I know of (outside of Bucky's material): 'Stop the Five Gallon Flush! - A Survey of Alternative Waste Disposal Systems' "A classification and description of sanitation methods and a catalog of 80 systems. New chapter on composting." 47 pages, revised edition Jan 1980. [A detailed drawing of Bucky's toilet appears on page 29!] Available from: Center for Minimum Cost Housing School of Architecture McGill University 3480 University Street Montreal, Quebec H3A 2A7, Canada [Don't know if still available--was in '86. Used to cost $4.00.] -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 13:04:52 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: FULLER'S FOG GUN CLEANING An excellent source for information about fog gun cleaning in general and showers in particular is the following: "Water Conservation and the Mist Experience", 60 pages, July 1978. "Describes atomization and mist spraying for showering and washing [anything!]. Nozzle and shower testing. Plans for a do-it-yourself mist shower that uses only one litre of water. A catalog of domestic water-saving devices. An extensive abstracted bibliography." Available from: Center for Minimum Cost Housing School of Architecture McGill University 3480 University Street Montreal, Quebec H3A 2A7, CANADA [Was available in 1986--cost $4.00.] -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 16:28:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: DOME STUDY X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Joe Moore" at Jan 15, 95 07:41:25 pm Dear Joe-- Contact the BFI for a copy. If there are no other sources for the document, I have a copy which I could photocopy for $10 costs and first class postage. --Kiyoshi kiyoshi@cpp.pha.pa.us Forwarded message from Joe Moore begins here: > > In 1954 the U.S.Marines did a 114 page study of Bucky's geodesic domes. > Since it was paid for with public funds, the text, pictures and drawings are > all in the public domain. It is entitled: > > 'Final Report: A Study of Shelter Logistics for Marine Corps Aviation' > > by Henry C. Lane > Colonel, U. S. Marine Corps > > I'm not sure how a person could get a copy of this document. > > JOE S MOORE ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 07:30:39 KST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DANTES Far East Field Office Subject: Re: NEXRAD WEATHER RADOMES HOBBY-EBERLY DOME HISTORY OF SHIPS FULLERENES BUCKY VIDEO idea (fwd) TRADE ROUTES Essay by Fuller dec 94 newsletter ULTRA-MICRO COMPUTER X-To: JSTALL7@emh7.korea.army.mil I'm still automatically receiving messages from contributors to this listserver even though I am no longer on the list. As promised, I will send a message like this every week until someone takes me off their personal list. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 07:35:44 KST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DANTES Far East Field Office Subject: Re: Essay by Fuller Essay by Fuller Essay by Fuller Bucky and the Beats Essay by Fuller Bucky and the Beats Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game Bucky and the Beats Essay by Fuller Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game Bucky and the Beats Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game Essay by Fuller Essay by Fuller Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game BUCKY MUSIC Bucky and the Beats Network Essay by Fuller Network Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game TENSEGRITY MUSICAL INSTRUMENT Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game a little contradiction Space Frames Structures, Domes Etc. ULTRA-MICRO COMPUTER WORLD GAME Essay by Fuller Essay by Fuller X-To: gerald@tacit.xs4all.nl I am still receiving messages from people on this listserver even though I am no longer subscribing to the list. As promised I will send a message like this every week until I am taken off someone's personal list. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 07:39:01 KST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DANTES Far East Field Office Subject: Re: Bucky and the Beats Network BUCKY MUSIC Network ARTICLES ABOUT BUCKY BUCKY BOOKS IN PRINT Network "Flight Simulator" for World Game FLOATING OCEAN CITIES TENSEGRITY MUSICAL INSTRUMENT BUCKYBALLS COMSAT MARINE SERVICES net flight sim/World Game net flight sim/World Game WORLD GAME DYMAXION CAR SHELTER DATABASE net flight sim/World Game DOME STUDY net flight sim/World Game DIGITAL SATELLITE TV FULLER'S DRY TOILET FULLER'S FOG GUN CLEANING DOME STUDY I am still receiving messages from someone on this listserver even though I am no longer on the list. As promised, I will continue to send a message like this ever week until someone removes me from their automatic answer list. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 16:14:24 MDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Ken G. Brown" Organization: BEST Online Subject: Mathematics of a 12 Tone System This talk of Tensegrity musical instruments reminded me of a reference I heard about on CBC Radio (on a Bill Richardson show) and meant to follow up some day. They were talking about a 40 year old thesis done at the University of California titled something like: The Mathematics of a 12 tone System" - author Babbitt (unsure of spelling). It occurred to me at the time that it might have some relationship to the icosahedron since a friend was talking about the idea of tensegrity music. My friend has since built a small instrument and played around with it but had some technical difficulties with tensioning strings etc. He would I am sure be interested in sharing experiences if anyone is interested. If anyone has access to the Thesis, I would like to know a bit more about it, or perhaps obtain a copy. Thx. Ken G. Brown (kbrown@atc.edmonton.ab.ca) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 16 Jan 1995 16:47:09 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY PLAY In 1991 Tony DeVarco co-wrote and produced a play called "Buckminster Fuller: In and Out of the Universe". It was put on by the Ensemble Theatre of Cincinnati, OH, in the Spring of 1991. It received critical acclaim by the Cincinnati Inquirer for its dynamic portrayal of Fuller's life using synergetic and geodesic structures, dialogue, and music. Tony is presently Managing Director of the Buckminster Fuller Institute in Santa Barbara; he can be reached at BFI@aol.com. Info from Spring '92 BFI newsletter, page 12. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 09:15:07 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DOME LIST For those interested in an up-to-date list of American dome manufacturers, look in the latest edition of Thomas Register of American Manufacturers and Catalog File Volumes 1-10 Products & Services listed alphabetically Volumes 11 & 12 Company Profiles listed alphabetically Includes address, zip, phone, offices, officials, etc. Volumes 13-18 Catalogs of Companies bound alphabetically This shelf of books can usually be found in the reference section of most libraries. The 1984 issue contained over 50 entries. It also contains ads with pictures and drawings in color. Most companies would be delighted to send a copy of their catalog, literature, etc. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 14:11:14 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: MEMBER LIST MEMBERSHIP LIST FOR THE DISCUSSION OF BUCKMINSTER FULLER'S WORKS Current as of 01-16-95. * = NEW SUBSCRIBER For the latest list send to: LISTSERV@UBVM.BITNET Leave the Subject line blank; Put next to the left hand margin the command: REVIEW GEODESIC ----------------------------------- A ------------------------------------ Ai-LanNguyen, Elizabeth lizzie@RICE.EDU USA *Alter, Robert E. ae614@DAYTON.WRIGHT.EDU USA *Andersson, Tomas andersson.tomas@A1STKAI1.STKMTS.MTS.DEC.COM USA Applewhite, Ed EdApple@AOL.COM USA Arsenault, Marc wowcool@HOLONET.NET USA Atterberry, David david.atterberry@LUNATIC.COM USA ----------------------------------- B ------------------------------------ Balter, H. 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ENRICO@YKTVMZ USA *Stutz, Michael stutz@RS6000.BALDWINW.EDU USA Swanson, Craig Seeswan@AOL.COM USA Sykes, Scott ssykes@CARIB.VF.GE.COM USA ------------------------------------ T ----------------------------------- *Tagdi, Mohamed Mohamed.Tagdi@LET.RUU.NL NETHERLANDS Thibodeau Jr, Ted TED@BCVAX2 USA Thompson, Brady ae610@FREENET.CARLETON.CA CANADA Thompson, Evan evthomp@EIS.CALSTATE.EDU USA Townsend, Christopher cpt1@CORNELL.EDU USA Tremblay, Marc marc@HARFANG.LOGIN.QC.CA CANADA ------------------------------------ U ----------------------------------- ------------------------------------ V ----------------------------------- Vanlynden, Troy n9340162@HENSON.CC.WWU.EDU USA Viviano, Salvatore SVIVIANO@DELPHI.COM USA ------------------------------------ W ----------------------------------- *Weberberger, Richard h8626774@OBELIX.WU-WIEN.AC.AT AUSTRIA Wenzel, Steve stevew7562@AOL.COM USA Wilson, Doug wilson@BWCO.COM USA Wong, Gordon wong@RCC.COM USA Wood, Lee woodh@SFU.CA CANADA Wright, Ed ubs!bucky!edw@UUNET.UU.NET USA ------------------------------------ X ----------------------------------- ------------------------------------ Y ----------------------------------- Yarbrough, Charles SOCOMCY@GSVMS2.CC.GASOU.EDU USA ------------------------------------ Z ----------------------------------- =========================================================================== Number of OLD 125 Number of NEW 40 TOTAL subscribers: 165 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 17 Jan 1995 21:23:03 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Co. Subject: Pictures Posted to a.b.p.m Just a few minutes ago I posted three pictures to alt.binaries.pictures.misc that I expect GEODESIC readers would be interested in. Anyone who doesn't have news access can email me and I can pass them on, or maybe whoever it is maintaining that Bucky FTP site can get them (from me or whatever) and put them there. (Kirby Urner may eventually get them and put them on his Web site, too.) Anyway, here are the descriptions: dome1.gif: This is a picture of a geodesic dome near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in the U.S. It appears to be a shelter for satellite transmitters and receivers and consists of a frame with some kind of cloth covering stretched over it. It towers over the Pennsylvania Turnpike near exit 27 or so, if you want to make a pilgrimage (I myself worship it as the god of plenty). The photo is my own and I hereby declare it to be in the public domain. The file is a GIF converted from an enormous JPEG. It's 1024x573 or so and should be in 8 parts. linedome.gif: This photo is a close-up of the same dome from dome1.gif with the exploded icosahedron outlined -- as well as the surface triangles of one face of the structure -- by me, using a cheesy little bitmap editor. With this outline, one could determine the type and frequency of the dome, if one remembered how (which this one doesn't). Again, it's my photo, and I hereby place it in the public domain. The GIF is 288x176 and is in one part. vfdemo.gif: This is a scan of my demonstrating the use of the Vector Flexor toy for an astonished and attentive audience (luckily, the audience is not visible and so I cannot be refuted on this point -- at least, not as far as you know). It's quite a cool toy. This photo was taken by my wife, and I hereby place it in the public domain in her name. The GIF is in seven parts and is 472 by 768 pixels. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 15:41:04 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Manhattan dome Hi everybody. I"m a new subscriber and I wonder if someone could steer me in the right direction on the following questions. The Manhattan dome proposal with that photomontage was originally published in a magazine called Think, I think, in 1968 or 69. I've never seen the original article. The proposal reappeared in short form in Ideas and Integrities and in Critical Path. Is there more to it than four paragraphs? There's an assertion in the proposal that the dome would pay for itself against the cost of snow removal within ten years, which implies some research had been done and data collected. True? Or was this more like a provocation than a plan? The FAQ (a great FAQ, by the way) for this list mentions a Frei Otto who somewhere, some time, discussed the feasability of very large structures and concluded that they wouldn't work. Was this published? On what basis was his critcism made? Thanks -- Walt Lockley klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 18 Jan 1995 16:55:23 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Manhattan dome In-Reply-To: ; from "Walt Lockley" at Jan 18, 95 3:41 pm Walt Lockley writes: > > Hi everybody. I"m a new subscriber and I wonder if someone could steer me > in the right direction on the following questions. > > The Manhattan dome proposal with that photomontage was originally published in > a magazine called Think, I think, in 1968 or 69. I've never seen the > original article. The proposal reappeared in short form in Ideas and > Integrities and in Critical Path. Is there more to it than four paragraphs? > There's an assertion in the proposal that the dome would pay for itself > against the cost of snow removal within ten years, which implies some > research had been done and data collected. True? Or was this more like a > provocation than a plan? > > The FAQ (a great FAQ, by the way) for this list mentions a Frei Otto who > somewhere, some time, discussed the feasability of very large structures > and concluded that they wouldn't work. Was this published? On what > basis was his critcism made? > > Thanks -- > Walt Lockley > klockley@delphi.com > .- > The 'Think' magazine (IBM) article was called "Why Not Roofs Over Our Cities?". It was dated 1-1-68 and appeared on pages 8-11. See the related article "The Age of the Dome" in the Jul-Aug 1969 issue of 'Build International' magazine (Netherlands), pp.? (9 pages). The Think mag article was reprinted in '50 Years of the Design Science Revolution & the World Game' by Bucky on pages 104-9. It may still be available from the B.F.Institute. Otto built tensile structures (tents, etc) but did not use Tensegrity principles. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 01:33:50 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kevin Sahr Organization: Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon Subject: Re: a little contradiction In article <3f1lf5$6jg@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>, Adam Eberbach wrote: >: >No its not. Lying, cheating, and stealing is what made him a >: >billionaire. Taking advantage of a new age where the people > >: I agree totally. Consult _Hackers_ by Steven Levy for an early >: history of how Gates did it. Corporate-made software, by definition, > >Excuse me? Bill-Bashing is fashionable, yes, and as he's the (mostly) owner >of a corporation producing a lot of CRAP, in some cases justified. However, >"Hackers" doesn't say much about him which deserves your derision. Writing >Altair basic was a genuine achievement. He probably went about his "letter" >in almost exactly the wrong way, but the guy isn't just a corporate pirate, >he has some talent. Credit where credit's due... Though I don't think it was BASIC that made him rich. And he sure didn't write MS-DOS... Sure, he gets credit for writing the first personal computer compiler. As far as I can tell everything he's done since then (including the way he got rich, which is what was under discussion) _has_ been worthy of derision. So he's got talent; that just makes it that much worse... Not that this has much to do with the topic of this list, except that, all murkiness about Bucky's exact relationship to specific inventions aside, Fuller and Gates are quite a contrast in terms of their attitude towards universe. Imagine what Gates could accomplish if he gave a damn about anything other than $$. Kevin -- //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // // // Kevin Sahr // // Research Associate/Programmer Wilkinson Hall, Room 204 // ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 08:34:38 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DNA MODEL QUOTE: Dear Friends, 9-27-84 When the October '84 'Omni' magazine ran an article on the Hexaflexagon, I prepared this sheet for the author and the researchers mentioned in the article. I had mentioned this insight in a letter to Bucky in '78, but I'm not sure he got it. Please enjoy and pass it on to anyone you know who may find it useful. Warm regards, Jim Fish [THE PAPER FOLLOWS:] "Speculation Regarding a Tantalizing Possible Relationship Between the Structure and Functioning of DNA and the Hexaflexagon" (In the footsteps of the work of R. Buckminster Fuller) by Jim Fish 19503 Deer Lake Dr., Lutz, FL 33549 813-949-4866 800-237-1946 1. Occum's Razor tells us that Nature tends to use the simplest available means of getting the job done. 2. The simplest, most economical structurally sound ways of defining area and volume are the equalateral triangle and the tetrahedron. [drawing] 3. The track of a tumbling tetrahedron looks like a strip of triangles, the impression of each of the tetrahedron's four faces stamped in linear sequence. [drawing] 4. If this track were a strip of paper, random forces such as wind or water currents would tend to tumble, twist and roll it into a spiral shape,left or right handed. [drawing] 5. If the minimum resistance to hinge bending exists at the edge common to two neighbor triangles, the strip will curl into a helical tube ofstacked tetrahedrons, called a tetrahelix. [drawing] 6. This is true if our model were paper, or a molecule. Carbon especially tends to structure molecules in tetrahedral arrays. [drawing] 7. The tetrahelix structure fits the requirements of DNA molecular structure measured by Watson and Crick. 8. When you look end-on at a tetrahelix, you discover a small gap preventing 360 degree closure of a spiral cycle. This keeps two nestled tetrahelix strands from quite fitting, so as you press them together at one end, they separate at the other. This tendency to unzip could shed light on the separating of parent and child DNA strands observed in cell replication. [drawing] 9. If you continue to twist the strip of triangulated paper tighter, it flattens and folds itself naturally into the hexaflexagon form. [drawing] 10. The hexaflexagon is an infinitely extendable information storage and retreval system with each "face" discretely addressed in binary (+ flex and - flex) code. The practical limitation of paper hexaflexagons is the thickness of the paper used. Molecules have less problems with that. 11. The Feynman diagram illustrates that a vast hexaflexagon would have separated sets of data accessed directly from a central configuration. This feature is common to the functioning of DNA in that each cell containes the full DNA information, yet accesses only what it requires to form a bone or ear or nose. The Tuckerman Traverse shows how each data pool can be accessed in sequence. [drawing] 12. Retreval of stored data is accomplished by a mechanical energy flow common to smoke-rings and kerosene lamps, which is a continuation of the hinge flexing that caused the hexaflexagon to enfold to form itself. [drawing] 13. There are hexaflexagon forms which have bends, "lost" faces and other distortions, very suggestive of DNA mutations. [drawing] 14. Because the hexaflexagon represents the simplest case of an information storage and retreval system of vast capacity, because it forms from simplest components using simple available forces, and because in the above ways it mimics the observed structure and functioning of DNA, I am forced to argue for a correlation. Further analysis along these lines could lead to many insights in genetic research and in discovering the most basic origins of life. Warm regards, Jim Fish END OF QUOTE. (I have not verified address or phone numbers. JSM) -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 12:15:01 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Subject: _Closing Time_ ``On Monday one third of the nation was ill-housed, ill-clothed, and ill-fed. And on Thursday there were ten million people in the military making more than most had been able to earn before, and two million civilian employees, and tanks, airplanes, ships, aircraft carriers, and hundreds of thousands of jeeps and trucks and other vehicles pouring out of the factories almost too rapidly to count. Suddenly there was enough for everything. Does all the credit belong to Hitler? Capitalism, my father would probably answer with a smile of resignation, as though for this human socialist all the evils of inequality could be clarified in that sinful single word. `For war there is always enough. It's peace that's too expensive.' '' -- from _Closing Time_ by Joseph Heller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 14:42:23 EST Reply-To: dkap@vax.ftp.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "A Page in the Life of ..." Subject: Manhattan dome In-Reply-To: Joe Moore's message of Wed, 18 Jan 1995 16:55:23 PST <199501190445.XAA22369@cs.brandeis.edu> The 'Think' magazine (IBM) article was called "Why Not Roofs Over Our Cities? ". It was dated 1-1-68 and appeared on pages 8-11. See the related article "The Age of the Dome" in the Jul-Aug 1969 issue of 'Build International' magazine (Netherlands), pp.? (9 pages). The Think mag article was reprinted in '50 Years of the Design Science Revolution & the World Game' by Bucky on pages 104-9. It may still be available from the B.F.Institute. Hmm, perhaps we should also eliminate non-electric cars within the city and power them with Tessla's radiant power ... Dave K. -- I will not eat things for money - Bart Simpson punishment line ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 19 Jan 1995 16:55:11 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gee Pi Bee Subject: Re: _Closing Time_ In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 19 Jan 1995 12:15:01 -0500 from Who is/was Joseph Heller? Help?.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 03:08:43 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dane Winberg Organization: Drexel University Subject: Re: WORLD GAME David Heeney writes: >>For those interested in the World Game: >> >Joe Moore mentioned some World Game books, including some REALLY old ones. >He omitted: >Medard Gabel and the World Game Workshop. 1976. Energy, Earth and Everyone. >Doubleday Anchor >Medard Gabel and the World Game Workshop. 1976. Ho-Ping: Food for Everyone. >Doubleday Anchor. >I don't know, but doubt that these are still in print. They MIGHT still be >available from the World Game Institute. World Game Institute does have Ho-Ping available. Also, we have a few reports (reprints of articles and papers produced here) available. I'll be re-vamping our product list in the next couple weeks and will then prepare a plain text version for online. If there's no great objection, I'll post it here. Otherwise and thereafter it will be available via e-mail. I'm not sure yet if I can take orders by e-mail, so if you want to order, send a postal address to get a product list with an order form. Or you can call or fax. - Dane World Game Institute 3215 Race Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-2597 (215) 387-0220 Fax: (215) 387-3009 e-mail: xtm00002@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 05:59:02 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chuck Dingee Organization: World Game Institute NW Representative Subject: Bucky's 100th Birthday What, if any, celebrations/activities etc. are planned for July 12, 1995 -- Bucky's 100th birthday? Is anybody doing anything? Is BFI planning anything? I'd love to be involved! -- Chuck Dingee Pacific Northwest Regional Representative World Game Institute wginwrep@pacificrim.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 10:28:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Bucky's 100th Birthday X-cc: coco@pcnet.com, vulpine@pcnet.com In-Reply-To: <199501200927.AA00720@charon.osc.on.ca> (message from Chuck Dingee on Fri, 20 Jan 1995 05:59:02 GMT) > "CD" == Chuck Dingee writes: CD> What, if any, celebrations/activities etc. are planned for July CD> 12, 1995 -- Bucky's 100th birthday? CD> Is anybody doing anything? Is BFI planning anything? The Ontario Science Centre is _planning_ but with no clear direction at the moment --- I met yesterday with an architect keen to develop a RealityEngine model of our impending Omnimax Theatre dome and this question came up again (I'd previously been told I could do something so long as it did not officially involve OSC resources other than the Temp Exhibit Hall, ie. no government of Ontario labour or sponsorship dollars) This time around, however, the mood was more positive (maybe it's my new dymaxion world-map display for internet resources!) The unofficial comment from the Exhibits Director was "I didn't say _no_ budget!" CD> I'd love to be involved! I'd love to have you involved! I'd love to have you _all_ involved on a global scale, and I have a first step in this 1000 mile journey! Since I have dominion over the internet resources here (T1 line, 12-strand optic fibre throughout the centre, SGI graphics workstations, full suite of Alias software ...) I suppose I could start by pulling my net-god status! :) As a first step, I propose a new mailing list to be maintained by me and broadcast from OSC's web-server (www.osc.on.ca). I propose the list be at "bucky100@osc.on.ca" (ok, so I'm not a marketing type!) but am open to other names, the important thing is this could become our forum for the discussion and planning of global events, our media plan, and (using the file-server) our archive of events listings. My first specific project plan is to use a MUCK for a real-time, globally attended virtual WorldGame, and, well, Chuck, your .sig says you could be _very_ key to making this a reality! ... CD> -- Chuck Dingee Pacific Northwest Regional Representative World CD> Game Institute wginwrep@pacificrim.net In the short-term, I have a major exhibit opening in less than two weeks and many of you will be able to imagine what my schedule is like up to then. Beyond Feb. 7th, I plan to sleep for an hour or two (I'm working on Bucky's nap-habit!) and then dive into Bucky's centennial. So ... am I totally off the wall here, or do we stand a chance of doing something the world will remember? I can set up the listserver in a matter of hours if it makes sense (I still want to keep this list aware of our progress, but I don't want to tax people with dial-in accounts with the nuts and bolts of planning an event) Further possible steps: after the listserver is online and people and organizations have come onboard, I propose we start as Bucky did: Take inventory of our resources, our skills, experiences, ... all that stuff which Universe owns :) Any takers? Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 ---------------------------------------- The reality of me is just me ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 09:56:03 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tom Dosemagen Subject: Re: dome homes The telephone number for Natural Spaces is 1-800-733-7107 and their fax number is 1-612-674-8561. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 18:56:34 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Company, Inc. Subject: Further posting to a.b.p.m. I just posted a new image to alt.binaries.pictures.misc. Here's the introductory message: lovebcky.gif This is a humorous design I did, based on a note a friend of mine wrote in a Christmas card he sent me. I think it's pretty funny. I imagine it would make a fairly cool t-shirt. I can have some made up if anyone wants one. If I had it done in two colors, that'd be about US $60 for the screens, and probably around US $5 for just the shirt, and maybe another couple of dollars to have them printed; so, depending on the number of shirts we ordered, it would end up anywhere from about US $15 a shirt to as low as US $8 or so a shirt. I wouldn't make any but the most minimal profit (due to round-off error). If anyone wants one, email me and we can work out details. This is, of course, my own design and I declare it to be in the public domain. (That means you can copy it and make your own t-shirt if you so desire. By all means, knock yourself out.) The GIF is in one part, following, and is 766 pixels square. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Further, if anyone wants me to email them the design (so they can order a shirt, I hope), I can. The file is about 375 lines uuencoded. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:25:22 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Manhattan dome [Stuff about the Manhattan dome deleted] >Hmm, perhaps we should also eliminate non-electric cars within the city and >power them with Tessla's radiant power ... >Dave K. >-- >I will not eat things for money - Bart Simpson punishment line I take it you think doming over Manhattan is a humorous idea. Perhaps you could say why? Not having performed the calculations myself I can't say how much it would cost but it is hardly in the same class of foolishness as Tessla's radiant power. Or is it? Do you know something I don't? -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 19:17:40 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Company, Inc. Subject: Re: _Closing Time_ Gee Pi Bee wrote: > > Who is/was Joseph Heller? Help?.... Joseph Heller is a writer of fiction, usually satire of some kind. His most famous work is _Catch 22_, which I would argue is probably the best novel ever written in English. His latest book is the sequel to _Catch 22_ and has little if anything to do with the GEODESIC list. However, every so often there's a line in the book which resonates with me and my readings in Bucky Fuller, Tim Leary, Robert Anton Wilson, and so on. This passage in particular states something Bucky observed and wrote about in several of his books, and I thought it would be interesting to read a restatement of the idea from a non-Buckified writer. ``The problems were hopeless: there were too many people who needed food, and there was too much food to be able to feed them profitably.'' -- from _Closing Time_ by Joseph Heller Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 16:04:31 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Henry Subject: Re: Mathematics of a 12 Tone System The thesis in question is undoubtably composer Milton Babbitt's Doctoral Dissertation on the Mathmatics of the12-tone system of composition done while a student at Princeton University in the 40's. Interestingly enough, Babbitt was not awarded his PHD until just a few years ago (the reason: no one at Princeton understood what he was writing about). In the interim, Babbitt invented one of the first electronic music synthesizers, won a Pulitzer for one of his compositions, among other great achievements. So much for the "ivory tower" of academe! Should your friend wish to correspond regarding his tensegrity instruments, I'd be interested, just send mail to me via AOL. If you would like I'm sure I could track down a copy of Milton Babbitt's dissertation for you, but I'll warn you - it is indeed difficult, to say the least. Michael Henry Henri42267@AOL.COM +*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+* "There are only two types of computer - those that are obsolete, and those that don't exist yet." *+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 17:24:40 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: REFRIGERATOR For those interested in a more efficient refrigerator see: "The Great Refrigerator Race" in 'Business Week' magazine of July 15, 1993, pages 78-81. An excellent article; the refrigerators are available now. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 17:37:36 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: 360-DEGREE CAMERA A while back the BFI newsletter (date unknown) on page 16 had the following blurb: A new photography and projection system based on the dodecahedron has been issued U.S.Patent # 5,023,725. Called the Dodeca System, it uses multiple video cameras and projectors, with images in the shape of pentagons. By adding pent sections together, a seamless image of any size can be made, with increased resolution and possibilities for 3-D recording in every direction. For further info contact: David McCutchen Dodeca Corp. 931 N.Gardner St. W.Hollywood, CA 90046 213-851-6624 I have not verified the above information. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 04:49:00 +0300 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dagan Packman Subject: FIX bbs in Philadelphia... ------------ Kioshi, or anyone, Is the FIX (Fuller Information eXchange) BBS, located in Philadelphia, accesible from the internet in anyway? I recall discussion about this in October, an have just rejoined this list. Also, is there a W3 site for information on Bucky and his work? Thank you, Dagan Packman packman@glas.apc.org ------------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 18:24:59 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SATELLITE PHONE SYSTEMS PROPOSED LOW-EARTH ORBIT SATELLITE COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS SYS Constellation Ellipso Globalstar Iridium Odyssey Skycell Teledesic DEBUT 1998 1997 1998 1998 1998 1995 2001 # SATS 48 16 48 66 12 3 840 PLANES 6 3 8 6 3 1 21 HEIGHT 635 2670 865 485 6430 22300 435 PERIOD 1.75 5 2 1.66 6 24 1.65 COST 300 1000 1800 3400 1500 500 9000 For further information see: "A Wireless World" in 'Popular Mechanics' magazine, Sept 1994, pages 67-70. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 21:55:24 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Wow Cool Subject: Re: _Closing Time_ In-Reply-To: <199501200303.TAA23399@colossus.holonet.net>; from "Gee Pi Bee" at Jan 19, 95 4:55 pm Joseph Heller3 is the author best known for his novel of World War II satire "Catch 22". It was turned into a rather spectacular film version starring Alan Arkin and a cast of thousands. Heller has recently returned to Catch 22s cast in his latest book. A Catch 22 is the ultimate absurd beuracracy. As in a scene in the book. In order to be grounded (he's a pilot) the main character Yosarian has to request to be grounded because he's insane. However, if he request this then it's standard policy that he can't be insane if he makes this request. However, the doctor can't ground him unless Yosarian asks to be, and so on. Enjoy, Um, the book was required reading in most high schools... Marc ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 04:54:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: FIX bbs in Philadelphia... Dagan Packman (packman@GLAS.APC.ORG) wrote: > Is the FIX (Fuller Information eXchange) BBS, > located in Philadelphia, accesible from > the internet in anyway? We are still waiting, but have stopped holding our breath. Kiyoshi recently assured us that February will bring with it this long awaited event. > Also, is there a W3 site for information > on Bucky and his work? Check out Kirby Urner's home page: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ Are there any others? -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 01:51:14 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: BAM! Software On the inside back cover of the current _Wired_ (3.02) is an ad for a BAM! Software Inc. In the ad copy is this: "BAM! offers unique and synergetic expertise in all areas of product development, including audio, video, engineering, interface design, graphic arts, and editorial services." BAM! Software, Inc. 81 Franklin Street, New York NY 10013 v 212.343.9066 f 212.343.2962 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 02:55:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Bertland Subject: Fuller and utopia I've been lurking on this list for a couple of years and am delighted at the sudden burst of activity. I am a grad student in art history and I just happen to be doing my thesis on Fuller's architecture. Although I certainly do not understand much of the discussion of Fuller's math, I have been very interested in the discussions of his philosophy. So, I have a question to pose to the group: Although he vehemently denied being a "technocrat" (see his essay "Utopia or Oblivion"), can Fuller be considered a utopian thinker? Marcia Blackburn Bertland bd81064@BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 03:00:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Bertland Subject: Wichita House FYI - The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village in Dearborn, Michigan plans to erect and display Fuller's Wichita House (Dymaxion Dwelling Machine) in honor of his centennial. They hope to erect it this spring and keep it up all summer. They currently have one of Fuller's Dymaxion Bathrooms on exhibit. - Marcia Marcia Blackburn Bertland bd81064.bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 08:32:25 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: TAXONOMY OF POLYHEDRA AND TESSELLATIONS [ Article crossposted from geometry.announcements ] [ Author was JustWINK ] [ Posted on 20 Jan 1995 02:41:36 -0500 ] A TAXONOMY OF POLYHEDRA AND TESSELLATIONS Many years ago I was introduced to the work of Bucky and shortly thereafter Keith Critchlow's ORDER IN SPACE. I immediately became fascinated with the matter of setting into order the set of simple spatial patterns. Many years of casual investigation and led me to consider both polyhedra and tessellations within the same system, a set of 13 "families" embracing 5 or 8 forms each. With the encouragement of Annie Fetter, what started as "a few pages" has become a self-published 51 page, softback, wire-bound 8.5x11 book. This little tour weaves through subjects such as history, symmetry, duality, and especially the unavoidable contrasts between regarding polyhedra as 2-manifolds and as spatial "lattices" (buckyballs vs. quasicrystals, for instance). The book includes lots of illustrations, a bibliography and appendices, including names, numeric info., schlafli symbols, and a complete set of accurate orthographic views of polyhedra . It is written for a motivated lay audience, and will be used in a college geometry course in the next few months. I am not an academically trained mathematician, and the book is not intended to fill the role of a scientific paper. Rather, it is a comprehensive overview and introduction to the subject, and should be useful to artists, teachers and anyone else who needs reference to the spectrum of possible orderly forms of this type. The master chart of forms from the work should be available as an EPS file in the geometry forum. --------------------------------------------- A TAXONOMY OF POLYHEDRA AND TESSELLATIONS Available from: Charles E. Peck P.O. Box 47186 Wichita, KS 67201 (316) 264-5658 -----$8 US/ $10 FOREIGN----- Payable to Charles E. Peck -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 10:36:36 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ed Applewhite Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia I am a long time collaborater of Buckminster Fuller, and I am very interested in your taking on his role in architectural history--a much neglected field. I would be happy to be in correspondence with you , and perhaps I might be of assistance. In any event I would like to know more about the scope of your inquiry. No, I do not think Fuller should be called a "utopian" thinker--despite the title of his book--because that word has a pejorative connotation in our current culture. E.J. Applewhite 1517 30th St, NW Wash DC 20007 (202) 333-1132 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 14:03:58 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Moving beyond the Nations System? X-To: wholesys-l@netcom.com >The direct funding of oil companies and other large conglomerates constitute >a kind of corporate welfare that is IMHO far more damaging to our planet >than any welfare mother who can't find a job that pays enough to feed her kids. >The welfare system does need reform, but I think that reformation needs >to begin with what we consider to be basic human survival rights and a >redefinition of the words "work" and "responsible." Relevant stuff. This thread was originally a transplant from a Bucky Fuller list, so has been a bit heavy on references to Bucky (I'll continue in that vein, but others may not). US political debate heating up around welfare for low income "have nots" versus welfare for the haves. Newt's home district is one of the most heavily subsidized in the nation. As Fuller diagrams in Critical Path, the prime contractors irrigation system was the USA version of socialism. Many USA folk don't work because they don't have to: investments take care of them, thanks in many cases to a trickle down circuitry which pumps money up from the tax base and pours it through prime contractor networks, from whence it trickles down and out, funding secondary service economies and consumer industries in shopping mall suburbia. >I am old enough to remember the predictions in the 60s that technology >would begin to displace so many workers that we would not have enough >jobs to go around. I think that time is here. If we lived in a saner >world, the haves would not hoard all the stuff and would not work so >hard. The have-nots would receive enough for their contributions that >they could live on some comfortable level. The definition of a >contribution would change and not be judged solely on its market value >(what someone else will "pay" for it), but on its merit. What I wonder about is the future of the insitution we've called the Library -- has been around since Alexandria and before. Given our entry into the digital age, the old "borrow and return" model is being replaced the the "copy and keep" model: digital assets are clonable-downloadable. It makes no sense to pay overdue fines on cyberware. And intellectual contributions, like poetry, like photographs, like just about everything metaphysical, is to a hologram: every asset mirrors, in miniature, zillions of other contributions, influences. I couldn't write and share these words without armies of unacknowledged programmers, communications engineers -- stretching back through eons of invention. And lets not forget that language itself is an evolving artifact, and the role poets have played in fashioning it, refashioning it, to match the needs of each new era. So how do lawyers imagine they can see clearly etched property lines in this hologram? I think they're hallucinating or suffering from wishful thinking. Cyberware is different in kind from real estate pieces of earth and other physical assets that are not readily clonable. The natural thing for metaphysical assets is to endlessly self-replicate, multiply, like an organism. Imagine if the maturing brain discouraged neurons from proliferating because they hadn't paid the requisite license fees for their copy of the DNA. Cyberware (all digital media) is trying to become an important layer in our global brain, a layer of intelligence we very much need to work out problems on the physical plane, where scarcity presents more real and urgent problems. But our legal language fights the natural tendency of digital assets to propagate. We insist that cyberassets behave like proper properties and sport price tags, like Chinese vases or expensive perfume. We look for ways to artificially cripple our technologies, to make CD players incapable of making copies, to make computer software incapable of moving from machine to machine. This is all done in the name of rationality. We seem to believe there is no alternative way to provide high living standards to software engineers, poets, musicians, authors, other than through revenue on sales. So what will happen to the Library? If the 19th Century capitalist mindset which rules the world has its way, it will fade away. The highest achievements of our culture will no longer be freely accessible. Our best defense against tyranny, an informed and metaphysically well-endowed populace, will evaporate (is piss poor already, our information diet coming through mass media pablum with little in the way of mental nutrients). I say we could make cyberware freely available, and still have a working economy. No one "owns" the English language (although lawyers keep chipping away at it, trying to make common phrases into trademarked advertising slogans), and yet English is a primary industrial tool, a means to an end. People will still need to learn how to use their embarrassment of digital riches, should we move more of our cultural heritage into the public domain. The demand for trainings and seminars, teachers and tutors, will skyrocket. R&D will still get funded, because moving one's company to the next level will still require retooling and reprogramming. I just don't think a "market economy" has to rest itself on the shakey ground of intellectual property law, which mixes metaphors willy nilly and tries to turn a hologram into private lots, replete with "no trespassing" signs. Moving into cyberspace with USA OS, I attach new meaning to the tune "This land is your land, this land is my land..." >As a poor person, as a poet and as a woman (with the potential to be >disenfranchized and demonized under the current predominant valued >system) I wanted to share my thoughts. I look forward to "hearing" yours. > >-Pattie Kirby ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: considered a utopian thinker? My interpretation of Fuller's use of the word "utopia" is "the accomplishment by society of solving all of yesterday's problems and the initiation of vigorous efforts toward solving tomorrow's problems." I think most "utopians" in history have taken a different point of view. > Marcia Blackburn Bertland > bd81064@BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU My alma matter has come a long way ... to have actually have grad students studying Fuller! -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 18:18:33 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gee Pi Bee Subject: Re: Moving beyond the Nations System? In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 22 Jan 1995 14:03:58 -0800 from Bravo Kirby & Dawn in Portland!!!!! Take a bow - clean skeweres of prose!!! :) Encore, Encore........ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 14:07:03 LOCAL Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Bucky's 100th Birthday >As a first step, I propose a new mailing list to be maintained by >me and broadcast from OSC's web-server (www.osc.on.ca). I propose >the list be at "bucky100@osc.on.ca" (ok, so I'm not a marketing type!) >but am open to other names, the important thing is this could become >our forum for the discussion and planning of global events, our media >plan, and (using the file-server) our archive of events listings. I'm feeling very encouraged by these plans. More power to ya! Kirby (still unsubscribed, but following along, posting via Newsreader) ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: title of his book--because that word has a pejorative connotation in our > current culture. > > E.J. Applewhite 1517 30th St, NW Wash DC 20007 (202) 333-1132 > Is the only reason that you would not call Fuller "utopian" because the word 'utopian has a pejorative connotation or is there a philosophical definition for the word 'utopian' that has been formulated by his predecessors and you believe that Fuller's "world view" does not fit into the established definition? Ted ------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 18:17:25 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Moving beyond the Nations System? [ 96] Kirby Urner X-To: geodesic%ubvm@mitvma.mit.edu You need to address the problem of access to the computer network. Irrespective of the money that is required to purchase the hardware to gain access and the online fees, the "Sidewinder" program (see Internet World Feb. 1995 p. 45) can filter information based on the content of a file. Government Agencies around the world have a vested interest in keeping certain types of information out of the hands of the people. Information can also be routed onto "pay per view" systems. Someone who really knows what they're doing with a computer may be able to find a way around their local computer infrastucture into the network at large, where the same information is in the public domain, but couldn't bypassing a state sponsored computer system be made illegal. One example I can think of in the U.S. that supports my theory is the fact that several universities have managed to filter information regarding "sex" from their systems. If they can filter one catagory of information, why not others? One might be able to get around some of the problem with PGP, but a central computer system could prohibit the transfer of encrypted files. Ted ------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 16:53:35 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: KOTZ _ RADIO I have been looking for a computer program called SAPP 86. This program was advertized in the Fall 1991 issue of Dome magazine. It wa bill has the dome application program library for the ibm pc. I sent off for the product information and they sent it to me. I decided to wait till my office system was a little better before buying. When that time came around and I tried to contact them it was no luck. The company was called: Smartchild and Whitehall ltd. P.O. Box 803753 Chicago IL 60680-3753 1-312-334-3231 I have been looking form them for about two years now with no luck what ever. From what I can find for dome software this is what I would need, or at least use, in my situation. In fact any dome software that would run on a pc I would like some info on. My fax is 907-442-2292 if that is a better medium for reply. Thanks Pierre Lonewolf ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 20:27:35 -0500 Reply-To: TlineDomes Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: TlineDomes Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: dome homes We are also happy to provide free information. Send or call with you name and address to: Timberline Geodesics TLineDomes@aol.com 1-800-DOME-HOME 510-849-4481 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 22:58:34 EST Reply-To: dkap@vax.ftp.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "A Page in the Life of ..." Subject: Manhattan dome In-Reply-To: "Robert L. Read"'s message of Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:25:22 -0600 <199501202316.SAA14561@cs.brandeis.edu> >Hmm, perhaps we should also eliminate non-electric cars within the city and >power them with Tessla's radiant power ... >Dave K. >-- >I will not eat things for money - Bart Simpson punishment line I take it you think doming over Manhattan is a humorous idea. Perhaps you could say why? Not having performed the calculations myself I can't say how much it would cost but it is hardly in the same class of foolishness as Tessla's radiant power. Or is it? Do you know something I don't? A domed over city will give you _lots_ of acerage for things like solar power screens and wind-generators. If you dome it over, you _can't_ have emmisions at the level that they are at, the city would choke. I figure that the interior would have to be lined with some vine-like plant that would obtain "ground" sustinance via hydroponics, and would obtain bolshive lots of CO2 from the inhabitants exhalations. I just figured on how to run transportation on an individual basis ... unless you are actually going to rebuild the city from scratch and make it Public-trans/foot only, in which case, we might as well start on the sea (many advantages to a floating city ...) Sorry, wasn't that clear? Dave K. -- AT&T Virus Every three minutes it tells you what great service you're getting. The MCI Virus Every three minutes it reminds you that you're paying too much for the AT&T virus. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 23:26:42 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: DOME STUDY [ 20] Kiyoshi Kuromiya X-To: geodesic%ubvm@mitvma.mit.edu Why don't you copy it with a computer scanner and post it here, then it would truly be in the "public domain". I don't see any reason to churn the coffers at the BFI. Ted ----------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 06:17:44 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Moving beyond the Nations System? Kirby Urner (pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM) wrote: > So how do lawyers imagine they can see clearly etched property lines > in this hologram? I think they're hallucinating or suffering from wishful > thinking. Cyberware is different in kind from real estate pieces of earth > and other physical assets that are not readily clonable. The natural thing > for metaphysical assets is to endlessly self-replicate, multiply, like an > organism. Imagine if the maturing brain discouraged neurons from > proliferating because they hadn't paid the requisite license fees for their > copy of the DNA. Cyberware (all digital media) is trying to become an > important layer in our global brain, a layer of intelligence we very much > need to work out problems on the physical plane, where scarcity presents > more real and urgent problems. But our legal language fights the > natural tendency of digital assets to propagate. We insist that cyberassets > behave like proper properties and sport price tags, like Chinese vases > or expensive perfume. We look for ways to artificially cripple our > technologies, to make CD players incapable of making copies, to make > computer software incapable of moving from machine to machine. > This is all done in the name of rationality. We seem to believe there is > no alternative way to provide high living standards to software engineers, > poets, musicians, authors, other than through revenue on sales. > I say we could make cyberware freely available, and still have a working > economy. [deleted] Fortunately, there are many active movements underway to counter this abhorent Obnoxico strategy. The Free Software Foundation has led the way in pioneering a complete, high-end computing environment without cost to its users. But many other volunteers (some even opposed to certain aspects of the FSF's policies) are also contributing freely useable, freely distributable, and freely modifiable software for the benefit of other computer users. In fact my home PC relys 100% on freely useable and distributable software. Not only have I not paid a dime for any of the software I use, I am legally allowed to do this. Right now there is enough free software to at least partially meet everyone's needs. Some of it has rough edges, but with the contributions of an ever increasing army of developers, testers, and users there is more and more free software of equal or higher quality than what commercial vendors can offer. I think that with computers being so important to "making the world work" and given that half of what most people invest in computers is spent on software, it is of vital importance to design science revolutionaries to support free software. I have collected references and reviews of many free software products. Some only run under the UNIX operating system (which seems by far to offer the widest selection of free software to its user community), but most run under any platform (Windows, Amigas, Macs, etc.). One real exciting free software package for geometers is POV-Ray which is a ray-tracer for generating photo-realistic images. It is available in binary format for Amigas, Windows, Macs, Linux and in source format for other UNIX operating systems. ftp to povray.org for everything you need to run POV-Ray. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 00:45:20 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Public Domain Information X-To: geodesic%ubvm@mitvma.mit.edu It seems to me that a person could use a computer scanning device to scan material with out respect to copyright and post the information through an anonymous mail server like anon.petnet.fi (see Internet World Feb. 95 pp. 32-33). This would be illegal, but it would get information into the public domain that was never intended to be in the public domain. One could start by scanning the _Patented Works of Buckminster Fuller_ and then posting them anonymously. Then one could just go on scanning the Library of Congress and posting it. Just a thought. Ted -------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 01:49:55 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Edward H Campbell Subject: Re: Bucky's 100th Birthday [ 12] Chuck Dingee X-To: geodesic%ubvm@mitvma.mit.edu I recall Buckminster Fuller replying to the question: "How do you want to be remembered?" by saying, "I don't want to be remembered." Why do we want to "remember" Fuller with a "commemorative" stamp or a birthday celebration. Should we declare it a national holiday? To the extreme case: Shall the world celebrate the day of his birth? Should July 12 = Dec. 25? Ted ------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 04:48:02 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Elizabeth A. Simmons" Organization: University of South Dakota Subject: (Nuts & Hubs) Practical Dome Building I'm looking for practical, dome-building information. I've owned both Dome Builders Handbooks since their publication. They're great, but I'd like some more up to date info. I've experimented with models and built a geodesic, pin-hole camera, but have never tried to build any actual shelter. I'm inspired by a friend who built a wonderful 18' dodecahedron for $80.00 for he and his son to live in for the winter when the road to his farm house became impassable. He just used 3 layers of lath screwed into sheet metal hubs. The interior skin is double-butted nylon, and the exterior skin is a plasticized. rip-stop nylon, commonly used in these parts to cover hay. Heated by a small, wood cook stove, they have been remarkably warm and snug in the high winds and sub-zero South Dakota weather. I'm planning a five-foot dog house for my Golden Retrievers and a green house for spring. Being more anal retentive than my friend, I'd like to find a share-ware CAD program, or if worse comes to worse, I can probably visit a friends AutoCad.10(?) . Any suggestions? I had the honor of meeting Bucky (shaking hands and blabbering something--probably stupid) in 1971 or 1972 after what ended up to be an enthralling 4-hour lecture in Spearfish, SD. It more than made up for never having seen the Beatles. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Beth Elizabeth A. Simmons esimmons@usd.edu Independent Consultant Disclaimer: Standard University of South Dakota My other sig is an EPS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 14:28:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "NEY,ADDI./PPE" Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN Subject: looking for earth magnetic field maps Hello All, Does anyone happen to know a data-base, ftp site, etc, where we could find the magnetic corrections tables of our globe of the last few years? thanks in advance Addie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 08:32:01 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Public Domain Information In-Reply-To: ; from "Edward H Campbell" at Jan 23, 95 12:45 am Edward H Campbell writes: > > It seems to me that a person could use a computer scanning device to scan > material with out respect to copyright and post the information through > an anonymous mail server like anon.petnet.fi (see Internet World Feb. 95 > pp. 32-33). > > This would be illegal, but it would get information into the public > domain that was never intended to be in the public domain. One could > start by scanning the _Patented Works of Buckminster Fuller_ and then > posting them anonymously. Then one could just go on scanning the > Library of Congress and posting it. > > Just a thought. > > Ted > -------------------- > .- > All patents are already in the public domain. Bucky's and other relevant patents just need to be converted into electronic format--including the patent drawings. Any volunteers? -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 08:39:46 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: (Nuts & Hubs) Practical Dome Building In-Reply-To: ; from "Elizabeth A. Simmons" at Jan 23, 95 4:48 am Somehow building domes out of materials that burn, rot, and/or can be eaten by bugs bothers me a little. Is anyone designing domes out of materials that don't have these problems, such as steel, aluminum, composites, etc? And I don't mean buried under dirt! I want my home to be portable. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 13:10:22 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Moving beyond the Nations System? >Fortunately, there are many active movements underway to counter this >abhorent Obnoxico strategy. >The Free Software Foundation has led the way in pioneering a complete, >high-end computing environment without cost to its users. >[...] it is of vital importance to design science >revolutionaries to support free software. Right on. I feel that what the FSF has done (and is doing) is just excellent. At first glance, a cynic might say that its foolish to create and release free software, but look what they've done -- it's worked for them. I've always maintained that the GNU General Public License is a must-read for all artists and scientists today -- not just for software but for anything that's reproducible in digital media, the GPL's the way to go. m ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 13:01:21 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia [ 10] Ed Applewhite >> No, I do not think Fuller should be called a "utopian" thinker--despite the >> title of his book--because that word has a pejorative connotation in our >> current culture. > >Is the only reason that you would not call Fuller "utopian" because the >word 'utopian has a pejorative connotation or is there a philosophical >definition for the word 'utopian' that has been formulated by his predecessors >and you believe that Fuller's "world view" does not fit into the >established definition? This is my interpretation of the whole "Utopian" thing. A Utopia has come to mean a sort of Shangri-La where everyone lives "happily ever after" -- there are absolutely no problems or troubles, its sort of a heavenly place where we're all happy together. To me, this is junk -- such a thing is impossible. William Burroughs said something about this not too long ago: "The trouble with a Utopian society is that happiness is a function of work." I don't think that Fuller's "world view" or Huxley's _Island_ is "utopian" according to the definition I just laid out -- because in both of them, there are still problems -- daily life is still one of problem-solving; they both might propose to have "world views" where war is obsolete, where we don't have to go to work every day doing awful stuff we don't want to but rather we'll be "learning a living," but still -- there will still be accidents, disease, pain and suffering. We might not be killing each other in wars or hording food while others starve, but there will always be problems to solve and there will always be suffering. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 13:20:55 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Bucky's 100th Birthday [ 12] Chuck Dingee >I recall Buckminster Fuller replying to the question: "How do you want to >be remembered?" by saying, "I don't want to be remembered." Why do we >want to "remember" Fuller with a "commemorative" stamp or a birthday >celebration. What I'm interested in is the general public being exposed to Fuller. I'd heard the name before and played in those playground domes as a kid but it was only about 1.5 years ago when I was really introduced to Fuller and his work. It's always intrigued me that "America's best-known genius" and his work is still relatively obscure ... I do believe that's changing, but if these inventions really worked -- the dymaxion car, the shower gun, dymaxion map, the domes, etc. -- why aren't they in general use? Part of it's impatience on my part, no doubt, but my intuition tells me that Synergetics is very important, a worthwhile area of study -- the more PR it gets & the more people learn about Bucky, the better. Also, an aside -- I was thinking about this the other day, that it's probably not coincidental that Bucky died in 1983, which was right about the birth of the BBS revolution and the whole computer networking craze. . . . The Internet was around well before that but I think it wasn't until the mid-80s when Usenet etc. started becoming a big communications tool. m ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 13:11:31 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Public Domain Information >One could >start by scanning the _Patented Works of Buckminster Fuller_ and then Aren't his patents already in the public domain? (And if so, is it legal to photocopy/scan/etc that book?) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 13:11:57 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Tom Dosemagen Subject: Re: (Nuts & Hubs) Practical Dome Building CALL NATURAL SPACES AT 1-800-733-7107 AND ASK THEM FOR THEIR "ALL ABOUT DOMES" BOOK. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 14:29:11 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ed Applewhite Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia [ 10] Ed Applewhite Ted The philosophical reservation applies as well. Fuller's views rarely fit established definitions. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 13:25:54 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: (Nuts & Hubs) Practical Dome Building [Beth describes some dome projects and asks about others.] I've designed a geodesic gazebo by writing a C++ program to output the coordinates. The coordinates are then fed into FElt, a freeware structural analysis program that lets me test the structure against various loads. I found this helpful, though it may be overkill for what you want to do (dog houses and green houses that are small don't require a whole lot of analysis.) However, if you want to do it I can work with you --- although if you don't run Unix, FElt may not work. I wonder --- Can AutoCad really be used to model a dome easily? I've seen some out-of-date books and they made AutoCad seem very 2D, and domes can't be designed very easily in 3D? Perhaps someone knows how easy it is to design such things. As for greenhouses (you may know this and more already) you could certainly build a cheap one by building a geodesic frame and covering with plastic sheeting. You want to get the kind that doesn't turn yellow in the sun too quickly. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 13:32:42 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Manhattan dome I take it you think doming over Manhattan is a humorous idea. Perhaps you could say why? Not having performed the calculations myself I can't say how much it would cost but it is hardly in the same class of foolishness as Tessla's radiant power. Or is it? Do you know something I don't? A domed over city will give you _lots_ of acerage for things like solar power screens and wind-generators. If you dome it over, you _can't_ have emmisions at the level that they are at, the city would choke. I figure that the interior would have to be lined with some vine-like plant that would obtain "ground" sustinance via hydroponics, and would obtain bolshive lots of CO2 from the inhabitants exhalations. I just figured on how to run transportation on an individual basis ... unless you are actually going to rebuild the city from scratch and make it Public-trans/foot only, in which case, we might as well start on the sea (many advantages to a floating city ...) Sorry, wasn't that clear? Dave K. Thanks for the explanation. But I guess I imagined that the dome would simply be ventilated/air-conditioned rather than sealed so that internal pollution would be a problem. It certainly would be wonderful to integrate a semi-biological solution as you suggest, but I think, based on the experiments in Arizona (Biosphere 2, is it?) that we are a long way from something so wonderful. If you just move a lot of through the thing, you might have less pollution than you have on still days now, although of course ventilation increasing air-conditioning costs. One ideas that has always intrigued me is that if you had a big dome you could integrate the transportation into it. Imagine you hop into a car and it is lifted by cable to the dome surface, where you get into a train or cable car that follows a geodesic track to the spot above where you want to go, and then you are lowered. Since the traffic is partially using the volume and larger area than the streets, you might have less traffic. The weight of the traffic would probably be nothing compared to the structure itself. -- AT&T Virus Every three minutes it tells you what great service you're getting. The MCI Virus Every three minutes it reminds you that you're paying too much for the AT&T virus. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 20:30:14 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Company, Inc. Subject: Re: FIX bbs in Philadelphia... Dagan Packman wrote: > > Also, is there a W3 site for information > on Bucky and his work? Once again I am forced (oh the pain) to mention my humble Web site, http://vaxa.stevens-tech.edu:8000/crywalt/inventions/bucky.html Also, I recently received mail from one Rodrigo de Almeida Siqueira, who has a Bucky Web site at http://www.lsi.usp.br/usp/rod/text/buckminster_fuller.html It seems rather neat so far. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 17:52:15 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: MAGNESPHERES LARRY SPRING'S ELECTROMAGNETIC SPHERES There's a fellow in northern California whose work I think merits a closer look. I quote the following: "---Instead of teaching our audiences what I have found to be true, we have set up our equipment to receive a live satellite signal on a parabolic satellite dish, and let the energy show the audience the same things it showed me. In that way we are learning directly from the true teacher, _the Energy itself_. We are bypassing the middleman." "---I, Larry Spring, produced an animated demonstration of the working parts of the atom, including the nucleus of the atom, showing atomic fission, fusion, formation of a molecule, direct and alternating electrical current, the interaction of the electrons with the passing radiated electromagnetic fields like heat and television transmission, the creation and function of the neutron and finally the creation of a neutron star. I use magnetic fields of attraction and repulsion in place of electrical fields of attraction and repulsion. This VHS video tape runs for one hour. THE SPRING ATOM. This is, to my knowledge, the most enlightening and understandable visual demonstration of this subject produced in this century." I have looked over his work and I think he might be on to something. For further information contact: Larry Spring 225 Redwood Ave. Fort Bragg, CA 95437 707-964-4700 office 707-964-2116 home -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 03:34:06 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Market Reconnaissance Organization: iiNet Technologies Subject: Re: Fuller and the future In article <950122103634_2136534@aol.com>, Ed Applewhite says: > >I am a long time collaborater of Buckminster Fuller, and I am very interested >in your taking on his role in architectural history--a much neglected field. > I would be happy to be in correspondence with you , and perhaps I might be >of assistance. In any event I would like to know more about the scope of >your inquiry. > >No, I do not think Fuller should be called a "utopian" thinker--despite the >title of his book--because that word has a pejorative connotation in our >current culture. > >E.J. Applewhite 1517 30th St, NW Wash DC 20007 (202) 333-1132 As an architect and architectural historian with a particular interest in traditional building and the urgent need to complement dwindling indigenous shelter systems with adequate and appropriate structures I have been a student of Fuller for 25 years. Fuller's great treatise, Synergetics, not only demonstrates the absurdity of a resource hungry orthogonal structural system but reveals a way of thinking about structure and form which has had virtually no impact on global architecture. I think that any discussion of Fuller's work and the devastating consequences that are a result of practitioners and schools ignoring this discipline, should run concurrently with a discussion about the inability of cultures to initiate change as opposed to their ability to adapt. Phillip Gibbs Perth Australia mktrecon@iinet.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 04:17:41 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: (Nuts & Hubs) Practical Dome Building Elizabeth A. Simmons (esimmons@usd.edu) wrote: > I'm planning a five-foot dog house for my Golden Retrievers and a green house > for spring. Being more anal retentive than my friend, I'd like to find a > share-ware CAD program, or if worse comes to worse, I can probably visit a > friends AutoCad.10(?) . Any suggestions? The FAQ has some references to companies/publications that may help you (ftp:/switchboard.ftp.com/bucky - in another thread here some WWW sites were posted which have references to the FAQ). You might find Rick Bono's dome program to be useful - it will print the vital statistics for certain dome calculations (with a proper viewer you can even see 1/20th sections of your dome). John Kirk and I have ported this program to UNIX/Linux but haven't submitted diffs yet :( The source and DOS version of the program are available (uuencoded in the January log for GEODESIC: email listserv@ubvm.bitnet or listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu with the one-line message "get geodesic log9501" - previous logs had discussions of FElt and etc. I'd use the FAQ for info posted to GEODESIC before August 1994 and the listserv log files to review what has happened here since August). Building Bono's program into something more useful may be more fun than using auto-cad. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:43:30 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: Re: Manhattan dome In-Reply-To: <9501240116.AA08447@chat.carleton.ca>; from "Robert L. Read" at Jan 23, 95 1:32 pm > Thanks for the explanation. But I guess I imagined that the dome > would simply be ventilated/air-conditioned rather than sealed so that > internal pollution would be a problem. If we can advance ourselves far enough to build a domed over city or city-portion, then I'm sure that we'll be able to do without driving our cars around in them. I could sure do without all that pollution in an ENCLOSEMENT where I would live. A ventalation system just to deal with car exhaust seems like overkill to me. How about a more organic approach to transportation within a large dome. Apart from the obvious--!biking! or is that too primitive? Why not a solar or biomass powered trolley network that would service all levels. I could be linked to local public transit and/or parking lots. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Elias Tabello Carleton University Email address: etabello@chat.carleton.ca ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 13 Jan 1995 14:49:00 -0400 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "H. Jeffrey Rosen" Subject: World Game Simulation RE: "tuition-free" World Game simulation... While I agree in principle that the exercise should be cost free, there is one vital point that may be raised by the Fuller Institute and who knows how many other interested parties or contributors. How much credibility is lost by making the game free to all? (You get whatcha pay for!) Ten years ago, when I offered Jaime Snyder (and, indirectly, the BFI) a scheme to network the artifacts of RBF via videodisc, our discussion turned rapidly to a charge-back scheme which would be implemented for the good of the institute. In that scenario, access to the "database" was free to institute members, and obtainable by educational and private users for a fee, which (naturally) included membership in the BFI. Thus the BFI would have grown as use of the archive grew. It was for that reason I sketched the interface to the system as a curriculum guide - a natural magnet for researchers and educators, among whom I feel RBF's ideas stand the best chance for perpetuation. However, the stature of the institute seems to have declined over the past decade. Now it appears that folks like Urner, DeVarco, DeJong etc. are our best hope for getting Bucky's stuff onto the net. Still, the idea of a strong BFI isn't too distasteful if the situational politics can be kept to a minimum. Any clues? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 09:10:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: NONDELIVERIES Is it my imagination or are we no longer getting a nondelivery message every time we post? Did someone somehow get that guy to fix his address? Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 16:38:11 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Co. Subject: More pictures on a.b.p.m I've posted some new pictures to alt.binaries.pictures.misc. Here are the description files: epcot1.jpg This is a picture of possibly the most famous geodesic in the world: the Geosphere at Disneyworld in Florida in the United States. (It's worth noting that the Birnbaum's guide to Disneyworld states that the Geosphere is, in fact, NOT a geodesic, but a ``geosphere''; it then goes on to explain that geodesics are only partial spheres (which is wrong) and that, as an entire sphere, the Geosphere is an entirely different creature (which it isn't).) It is, however, an interesting variety of geodesic which I am unable to classify, apparently incorporating two icosahedra exploded onto the spherical surface. I have read that, for high-frequency geodesics, it's necessary to do it in such a way, but I'm not sure this was what was meant. The photo is my own and I hereby declare it to be in the public domain. The file is a JPEG and is 1002x705 or so and should be in 2 parts. epcot1a.jpg This is another picture of the Geosphere at Disneyworld in Florida in the i United States. In this one I have outlined the exploded icosahedra faces; note that where there ordinarily would be two pentagons on the left, the great circle arcs of two icosahedra faces intersect. The photo is my own and I hereby declare it to be in the public domain. The file is a JPEG and is 1008x768 or so and should be in 3 parts. epcot2.jpg This is another picture of the Geosphere at Disneyworld in Florida in the United States. From this angle the facets are clearer, although there's only one of the pentagons clearly shown, so this offers no further clues as to the geodesic design of the creature. The photo is my own and I hereby declare it to be in the public domain. The file is a JPEG and is 483x758 or so and should be in 2 parts. epcot2a.jpg This is yet another picture of the Geosphere at Disneyworld in Florida in the United States. This is just the previous picture with the exploded icosahedron traced. The photo is my own and I hereby declare it to be in the public domain. The file is a JPEG and is 397x295 or so and is in 1 part, following. tensmth1.jpg This is a profile photo of the tensegrity sculpture which stands outside of the Simthsonian Institute in Washington D.C. in the United States. It is, unfortunately, unattributed as far as I could tell. The photo is my own and I hereby declare it to be in the public domain. The file is a JPEG and is 481x757 or so and is in one part, following. tensmth2.jpg This is a another photo of the tensegrity sculpture which stands outside of the Simthsonian Institute in Washington D.C. in the United States. As I was walking away from taking the previous photo, I noticed a bare spot in the grass underneath the sculpture. Curious, I stood on that spot and looked up, and was rewarded with the view you can see here. The photo is my own and I hereby declare it to be in the public domain. The file is a JPEG and is 475x756 or so and should be in 2 parts. As always, contact me via email if you want to acquire the pictures in some manner besides news. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 14:59:43 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: Chicken Heated Dome I was wondering how domes constructed in the arctic or places with long winters were heated?? In a recent issue of the GROWING EDGE (its misplaced so I don't know which one) a lady on Martha's Vinyard heated her greenhouse with chickens. She had the chickens in an adjacent room. The Air in the chicken room quickly filled up with carbon dioxide, ammonia (from excrement) and heat. I think she calculated each chicken gave off 18btu?? The air was moved with a solar powered fan underneath the soil of the grow room where the ammonia was taken up by nitrogen fixating edible flowers, the CO2 filtered up into the air to feed the other plants and the heat kept away the nasty cold. This was her first experiment, I'm pretty sure she built her house with a wall of windows and grew tomatoes (30ft high!) by the same method, thereby heating her home, feeding herself, and making a living selling organic salad to Boston restaurants. Anyway I think that this method, called SOLVIVA, would be ideal for implementation with geodesic domes. A small chicken dome conected to a larger people dome with garden, even enclosing the two with a larger dome which could serve as a 'back-yard' in arctic conditions. So long. Elias Tabello Carleton University etabello@chat.carleton.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 20:13:38 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Manhattan dome again I'd concur with the objections that have been raised about living in an enclosed dome with a bunch of carbon-monoxide-spewing delivery trucks, and I'd go one farther -- even if you could get rid of auto traffic in midtown Manhattan you'd still have radon, methane, cardon dioxide, dust, and a cocktail of other junk to deal with. That's why I still wonder about the seriousness of this proposal to begin with. Was it thought through? Does anybody know? Fuller's other megastructures that I know about were taken seriously -- the Triton project was evidently approved as feasible by the Navy, and the East St. Louis dome is being talked about again down in Carbondale, according to the last Trimtab. Seems to me that the Manhattan dome would be far easier to build and maintain than either of those. Just wondering. . . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 19:10:09 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Manhattan dome >> Thanks for the explanation. But I guess I imagined that the dome >> would simply be ventilated/air-conditioned rather than sealed so that >> internal pollution would be a problem. >If we can advance ourselves far enough to build a domed over city or >city-portion, then I'm sure that we'll be able to do without driving >our cars around in them. I could sure do without all that pollution in >an ENCLOSEMENT where I would live. A ventalation system just to deal >with car exhaust seems like overkill to me. >How about a more organic approach to transportation within a large dome. >Apart from the obvious--!biking! or is that too primitive? Why not >a solar or biomass powered trolley network that would service all >levels. I could be linked to local public transit and/or parking lots. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Elias Tabello >Carleton University >Email address: etabello@chat.carleton.ca >---------------------------------------------------------------------- A lovely sentiment, but I do not share it. IMHO, we ARE advanced enough to build a domed-over city and we surely are not advanced enough to do a tenth of the things that we are capable of---like building functioning mass transit system or relying on bicycles. My interpretation of Fuller, and the truth, is that these are political problems, not technical ones. However, I and probably most readers of this group are far more powerful as technologists capable of creation than as players in the game of politics. Our most effective action then is to invent and build as much as we can, even if we pale beside Fuller and only get to have: "I tried, Damn it!" as our epitaph. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 20:34:29 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Bertland Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia X-To: Ed Applewhite In-Reply-To: <9501221537.AA01183@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu> On Sun, 22 Jan 1995, Ed Applewhite wrote: > I am a long time collaborater of Buckminster Fuller, and I am very interested > in your taking on his role in architectural history--a much neglected field. > I would be happy to be in correspondence with you , and perhaps I might be > of assistance. In any event I would like to know more about the scope of > your inquiry. Thank you for your interest! I am honored. To give you a little background, I'm at the research and first-draft writing stage of my MA thesis. I asked the question about Fuller and utopia because this is the topic which I will tackle in my thesis. Specifically, I will look at Fuller's city plans (Triton, floating,and even the NY and St. Louis dome plans, etc.) in the context of the Ideal City plan - one of the many branches of utopian thinking. Vitruvius' Ideal City was on a radial plan, as was Plato's Republic, and Scamozzi's PalmaNova, and Fourier's plans, and Owen's, etc. The Ideal City planners of the Renaissance took to the humanist (and ultimately classicist) belief that architecture should reflect the ideal forms of the human body, which was in turn a microcosmic reflection of the macrocosm. Fuller's tetrahedrons reflect the greater scope/shape of Universe. Anyway, I'm rambling, but this is the stuff upon which I'm ruminating. I've also done a conference presentation (American Culture/Popular Culture Assoc'n 1993) on the influence of Fuller's architecture (the geodesic dome in particular) and philosophy on science fiction film. I looked at SILENT RUNNING, SLAUGHTERHOUSE 5, QUINTET, LOGAN'S RUN, and I'm blanking out on the others at the moment. SILENT RUNNING is an obvious choice with all its ecological rhetoric. I hope to further develop this topic at a later date. Anyway, I have greatly appreciated everyone's input on this topic and welcome any suggestions or resources you could provide. > > No, I do not think Fuller should be called a "utopian" thinker--despite the > title of his book--because that word has a pejorative connotation in our > current culture. As far as the utopian question is concerned, I have run across so many "definitions" of utopia from Mannheim on that it is difficult to place anyone's work in that category without first specifying your own concept of the word. I am more comfortable breaking it down into two main categories (from which many sub-categories can be created): the social or verbal utopia like that of Thomas More; and the design or visual utopia. The social utopias deal mostly with class structure, etc while only superficially dealing with the physical environment. Conversely, the design or visual utopias have virtually ignored class structure. So, verbal utopias are true utopias in that they provide a scheme for social change, while visual utopias are not in themselves utopian, but are rather Ideal Cities which could, in turn, serve as the base for a utopian community. If these definitions are to be accepted, then I believe Fuller's work falls into the Ideal City scheme. "If you build it, they will come." - Marcia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 01:09:40 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia On Tue, 24 Jan, Marcia wrote: > I've also done a conference presentation (American >Culture/Popular Culture Assoc'n 1993) on the influence of Fuller's >architecture (the geodesic dome in particular) and philosophy on science >fiction film. I looked at SILENT RUNNING, SLAUGHTERHOUSE 5, >QUINTET, LOGAN'S RUN, and I'm blanking out on the others at the moment. Did you look at "Blade Runner"? I know that it was based on William Gibson's _Neuromancer_, which contains references to the "geodesics" of the cityscape. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 05:09:47 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: More pictures on a.b.p.m Is anybody archiving these photos? I'm probably not going to be able to keep all of them on my harddisk :( So permanent archives should be found. Then again you may be forcing me to go out and buy that Gig drive I keep dreaming about :) -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 05:18:50 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: NONDELIVERIES Joe Moore (joemoore@CRUZIO.COM) wrote: > Is it my imagination or are we no longer getting a nondelivery message every > time we post? Did someone somehow get that guy to fix his address? I noticed this too, but you beat me to posting! Fess up, who solved the Darin Comer case? After you posted the listing of GEODESIC subscribers, I e-mailed that guy who claims that someone on our list is bouncing articles to him. It turns out his e-mail address changed and the former address was forwarding his mail. He apparently only unsubscribed from the current e-mail address. If he posts here again we should all tell him to have his old sys admin stop forwarding mail to him. Hopefully he got my e-mail and won't post again, though. So like all good democracies, our listserv environment seems to have self-policed itself into some (unfortunately, probably only temporary) heaven :) NOTE TO EVERYONE: Please unsubscribe BEFORE your e-mail address changes -- it is very difficult to fix things after your old account is gone. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 01:57:13 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: Re: Manhattan dome (fwd) Robert L. Read writes: > we surely are not advanced enough > to do a tenth of the things that we are capable of--- If we are 'capable' of it then we are advanced enough. > ---like building functioning mass transit system or relying on bicycles. Believe it or not, humans have built 'functioning mass transit' systems: Subway cars (40 kmh); 'Rapid' transit trains (80kmh); street cars; buses etc... Elias Tabello-Carleton University-Email address: etabello@chat.carleton.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 12:21:42 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: synergetics-l From: Kirby Urner I'm the proud owner of a new mailing list: synergetics-l@teleport.com I am not advocating replacing geodesic with synergetics-l, but augmenting our overall discussions through multiple channels. My welcome message to synergetics-l mentions geodesic, FIXX, and other synergetics-related resources. Perhaps synergetics-l will take some of the burden of technical synergetica postings off of geodesic, but that's up to how subscribers choose to use, or not use, this new resource. To subscribe -- To: listserv@teleport.com (or majordomo@teleport.com) From: you, at the email address you want to receive postings. Subject: ignored, leave blank Message: subscribe synergetics-l end You should get a welcome message with info about unsubscribing, references to Fuller's 2 synergetics volumes, other related info. I look foward to reading your posts. Owner-synergetics-l Kirby Urner ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Company, Inc. Subject: Re: More pictures on a.b.p.m cjf@netaxs.com (Chris Fearnley) wrote: > > Is anybody archiving these photos? Well, I'm keeping them around, if that's what you mean (I'm quite the packrat). If you mean is there somewhere where the files are freely accesible, then no, not yet. Maybe I'll see if I can get my friend, who's sysadmin at my old Web site, to put them up for me. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 14:31:16 -0500 Reply-To: TlineDomes Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: TlineDomes Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: (Nuts & Hubs) Practical Dome Building We will be happy to send you free information regarding our dome kits. Please send your name and address to: Timberline Geodeiscs TlineDomes@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 14:46:48 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia In-Reply-To: <199501251043.CAA07372@mail.netcom.com> from "Michael Stutz" at Jan 25, 95 01:09:40 am > > On Tue, 24 Jan, Marcia wrote: > > > I've also done a conference presentation (American > >Culture/Popular Culture Assoc'n 1993) on the influence of Fuller's > >architecture (the geodesic dome in particular) and philosophy on science > >fiction film. I looked at SILENT RUNNING, SLAUGHTERHOUSE 5, > >QUINTET, LOGAN'S RUN, and I'm blanking out on the others at the moment. > > Did you look at "Blade Runner"? I know that it was based on William > Gibson's _Neuromancer_, which contains references to the "geodesics" > of the cityscape. > it's the other way around - gibson & cyberpunk were inspired by the gritty future of blade runner (based in turn on philip k. dick's novel _do androids dream of electric sheep_). i don't recall any geodesics in that film, though. but there are giant pyramid buildings (half-octahedra). but the society is a dystopian one. in terms of philosophy - there is an association in that the writings of both dick and fuller can be called "cybernetic" (high signal- to-noise ratio). -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 15:49:41 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Manhattan dome (fwd) >>Robert L. Read writes: >> we surely are not advanced enough >> to do a tenth of the things that we are capable of--- >If we are 'capable' of it then we are advanced enough. This is just a quibble over language. We are also capable of not killing each other, yet we are not advanced enough to do so. Is that better? >> ---like building functioning mass transit system or >> relying on bicycles. >Believe it or not, humans have built 'functioning mass transit' >systems: Subway cars (40 kmh); 'Rapid' transit trains (80kmh); street >cars; buses etc... This is a pretty uncharitable interpretation of my words, although I suppose it was worth to make that hilarious joke. Houston doesn't have much of a funtioning mass transit system. I think demanding that a city of the size of Houston have one is not asking that much. >Elias Tabello-Carleton University-Email address: etabello@chat.carleton.ca -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 17:52:00 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: More pictures on a.b.p.m In-Reply-To: ; from "Chris Rywalt" at Jan 25, 95 7:27 pm Chris Rywalt writes: > > cjf@netaxs.com (Chris Fearnley) wrote: > > > > Is anybody archiving these photos? > > Well, I'm keeping them around, if that's what you mean (I'm quite the > packrat). If you mean is there somewhere where the files are > freely accesible, then no, not yet. > Maybe I'll see if I can get my friend, who's sysadmin at my old Web site, > to put them up for me. > > Chris. > crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com > .- > How about ftping them to the "Bucky" directory at switchboard.ftp.com ? Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 21:33:02 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Bertland Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia X-To: Karl Erickson In-Reply-To: <199501260032.TAA27990@bingnfs1.cc.binghamton.edu> > > it's the other way around - gibson & cyberpunk were inspired by the > gritty future of blade runner (based in turn on philip k. dick's > novel _do androids dream of electric sheep_). > > i don't recall any geodesics in that film, though. but there are > giant pyramid buildings (half-octahedra). but the society is a > dystopian one. > > in terms of philosophy - there is an association in that the writings > of both dick and fuller can be called "cybernetic" (high signal- > to-noise ratio). > > -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com > Yes, Blade Runner is one of my favorites - especially the director's cut with the expanded views of the intimidating (but somewhat beautifully sublime) architecture. But, speaking of Gibson, check out a story called "Johnny Mnemonic" in his collection called BURNING CHROME. The story is decidedly distopian (as are most of Gibson's stories) and takes place in a city covered by "a ragged overlap of Fuller domes..." - Marcia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 19:04:13 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: CLARIFICATION For those of you that wish to join either the wholesys and/or synergetics lists, the names are _____-l not -1 (small "L", not "one"). Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 22:02:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Bertland Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia X-To: Chris Rywalt In-Reply-To: <199501260129.UAA29617@bingnfs1.cc.binghamton.edu> On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Chris Rywalt wrote: > Marcia Blackburn Bertland wrote: > > > > If these definitions are to be accepted, then I believe Fuller's work > > falls into the Ideal City scheme. "If you build it, they will come." > > I was thinking exactly this about your question. If you define ``Utopia'' > as a place where there are no problems and everyone is happy > (except, presumably, those who don't want to be happy), then Fuller > was not a utopian thinker. > However, if you define ``Utopia'' as a place where all problems are solved > to the best of humankind's ability and everyone is as happy as > humans can be given that they are still humans and still imperfect, > then Fuller could very well be classified as a utopian thinker. > Ed Applewhite is correct, however, in worrying about the pejorative > connotations of the word ``utopian'' in our current society. I > don't know if the equivalent translations in the world's other > languages have the same emotional loading as the English word has; > but everywhere I look ``utopia'' is taken to mean fanciful, pointless, > unrealistic: for example, definition 3 in the online Webster's > Dictionary (http://c.gp.cs.cmu.edu:5103/prog/webster) defines > ``utopia'' as ``an impractical scheme for social improvement.'' > So characterizing Fuller as a utopian thinker really depends on whether or > not you like his work and think it could be done. > I don't think that Fuller falls squarely into your ``Ideal City'' category, > either -- true to form, Fuller fits no categories unless you make > one just for him -- as he did indeed direct a lot of attention on > the social aspects of his imagined Utopia. He did believe ``if you > build it, they will come,'' but he would have added, I think, ``when > they're ready for it,'' and I further think he tried to get people > ready for it. He felt that technology drove societal change, but > that didn't mean he didn't figure society into his equations. > > Chris. > crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com > Yes, utopia is one of those nasty loaded terms whose evolution over the centuries has left us with more questions than answers. Thomas More adapted the word from the Greek outopia, meaning "not a place" or "nowhere" OR from eutopia, meaning "all places." Perhaps the negative connotation of the word arrived in the US with the 19th-century religious separatist communities. I don't know. Anyway, I like your second suggestion, Chris - that utopian thought can mean a better world, but not necessarily the best. After all, is anything BEST suited to survive somewhere? I think one can only be BETTER-suited than others. And I also agree that Fuller does not fit neatly into the Ideal City area. I only hope to look at his works in the context of an Ideal City discussion. I also agree that Fuller would add the caveat that "they will come...but only if they're ready." Fuller didn't seem to regard the commercial failures of his Dymaxion Car and Dwelling Machine as failures at all. He knew that his experiments had been successful and that people would see that when they were ready. - Marcia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 21:20:14 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ted Campbell Subject: Re: Manhattan dome > A lovely sentiment, but I do not share it. IMHO, we ARE advanced > enough to build a domed-over city and we surely are not advanced enough > to do a tenth of the things that we are capable of---like > building functioning mass transit system or relying on bicycles. > > My interpretation of Fuller, and the truth, is that these are > political problems, not technical ones. However, I and probably > most readers of this group are far more powerful as technologists > capable of creation than as players in the game of politics. > Our most effective action then is to invent and build as much > as we can, even if we pale beside Fuller and only get to > have: > > "I tried, Damn it!" > > as our epitaph. > -- > Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom > > I simply can't believe that inventinging things is going to solve all of the worlds problems. Whether or not one chooses to get involved in political game playing, one needs to address the fact that other people are playing politics and inventing things is not going to change that fact. There are even more serious problems the mere political game playing. People believe differently and live differently as a result of their beliefs. How does Buckminster Fuller address the problem of a Jewish homeland? Well, I can answer that: Fuller addresses it by saying that anti-semitism is the result of "not enough to go around." He believes that inventing things will stop the anti-semites from killing us. Fuller is wrong. --Ted ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 04:07:19 UTC Reply-To: an188206@anon.penet.fi Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: an188206@ANON.PENET.FI Organization: Anonymous contact service Subject: Re: Public Domain Information [ 30] Joe Moore > > > > Prehaps information that is not in the public domain could be put on this > > computer system. I don't have the technological harware to scan books > > and post them to a computer network, so you can count me out. > > > > --X > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 23:25:09 -0500 Reply-To: WENNE1 Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: WENNE1 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: (Nuts & Hubs) Practical Dome Building I built a 4' diameter dome using the following materials (may be appropriate for a greenhouse.) -Black flexible tubing which is sold for drip irrigiation systems. These are the struts. A little too flexible, but very easy to work with. -Overlapped struts at verticies and held together with 1/4 inch bolt. Pretty cheap and weatherproof. Kim W. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 01:37:01 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia >> Did you look at "Blade Runner"? I know that it was based on William >> Gibson's _Neuromancer_, which contains references to the "geodesics" >> of the cityscape. >it's the other way around - gibson & cyberpunk were inspired by the >gritty future of blade runner (based in turn on philip k. dick's >novel _do androids dream of electric sheep_). >i don't recall any geodesics in that film, though. but there are >giant pyramid buildings (half-octahedra). but the society is a >dystopian one. Ah -- thanks. Gibson's book came out in '84; I forgot all about Dick. There were other (and imho much better written) cyberpunk/vr scifi novels that came before Gibson -- like Vernor Vinge's _True Names_ and John Brunner's _Shockwave Rider_. But we digress. ObBucky: a good friend told me that one of the questions on Jeopardy! tonight was "Who proposed to cover the island of Manhattan with his invention, the geodesic dome?" The guy answered it right. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 01:58:14 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Bucky's attitudes about food? What did he have to say about food, especially eating meat? I don't think he was a vegetarian; I seem to recall (intro to _Tetrascroll_) something to the effect of "he ate steak and peas every day, this was his only dinner." I just wonder if he ever said anything about killing non-human animals. Michael "one acre of greens insteada pigs yields 20x more protien" Stutz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 00:32:50 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ted Campbell Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia > Yes, utopia is one of those nasty loaded terms whose evolution over the > centuries has left us with more questions than answers. Thomas More > adapted the word from the Greek outopia, meaning "not a place" or > "nowhere" OR from eutopia, meaning "all places." Utopia: Gk. eu Adv. well; opposite of kakos; implies greatness, abundance, easiness. and o topos Noun a place. ou Gk. not The difference is a play on words. people who said outopia were "nay sayers", i.e., they were making fun of people who believed in eutopia. --Ted ----------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 00:37:26 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ted Campbell Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Michael Stutz wrote: > What did he have to say about food, especially eating meat? I don't > think he was a vegetarian; I seem to recall (intro to _Tetrascroll_) > something to the effect of "he ate steak and peas every day, this was > his only dinner." I just wonder if he ever said anything about killing > non-human animals. > > > Michael "one acre of greens insteada pigs yields 20x more protien" Stutz > Bucky had some asinine remark to vegitarians about how the cow was a technological mechinism that "stored energy" by processing low energy food (grass) into high energy food (protien). He justified it that way. I think there is a reference to this in Playboy Feb. 1972, but I don't have the article to check this out. --Ted --------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:44:32 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Manhattan dome Ted Campbell (beth@SELWAY.UMT.EDU) wrote: > I simply can't believe that inventinging things is going to solve all of > the worlds problems. Whether or not one chooses to get involved in > political game playing, one needs to address the fact that other people > are playing politics and inventing things is not going to change that fact. True enough: nothing will solve _ALL_ of the world's problems. In the thread on Utopia I asserted that to the best of my knowledge Bucky (and my own) vision of the way things will be when they are "best" is full of big world problems -- probably bigger than any faced before. This is the only "utopia" I can guarantee humanity, fortunately! > There are even more serious problems the mere political game playing. > People believe differently and live differently as a result of their > beliefs. How does Buckminster Fuller address the problem of a Jewish > homeland? Well, I can answer that: Fuller addresses it by saying that > anti-semitism is the result of "not enough to go around." He believes > that inventing things will stop the anti-semites from killing us. > Fuller is wrong. I see more substance to Fuller's views on these political issues. I see his views on God (which challenge Jew and Gentile) in the mix. I see his views on values and world game impinging on these issues. I see Fuller forging the tools of ethics and creative problem solving outside the political realm (yet in the "social" realm). Fuller emphasized the practical issues of how to solve the world's technical problems first, because they MUST come first. He did have the vision to begin to forge the tools to solve problems beyond the purely technical engineering issues. The complex of Fuller's philosophy is more intricate than you have acknowledged here. Of course, Fuller is wrong. The challenge is to find out where, why, when and how he was wrong :) -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:06:43 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? Michael Stutz (stutz@RS6000.BALDWINW.EDU) wrote: > What did he have to say about food, especially eating meat? I don't > think he was a vegetarian; I seem to recall (intro to _Tetrascroll_) > something to the effect of "he ate steak and peas every day, this was > his only dinner." I just wonder if he ever said anything about killing > non-human animals. I believe he said that steak had more calories/nutrition per mouthful than vegetarian. The implication I was left with was that for expediencies sake, he needed to eat meat. But I also recall some allusions to being overweight too much ... maybe he ate too much steak :) I don't recall any comments on killing animals (he disapproved of killing people, in case you didn't know). > Michael "one acre of greens insteada pigs yields 20x more protien" Stutz Probably he would offer technological means to farm more Earth and not fret too much over the inefficiency. Nonetheless I personally avoid meat in my diet (well, only most of the time). So should I stop posting here :) -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:40:25 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? In-Reply-To: <199501260718.AA10719@charon.osc.on.ca> (message from Michael Stutz on Thu, 26 Jan 1995 01:58:14 -0500) > "M" == Michael Stutz writes: M> What did he have to say about food, especially eating meat? I M> don't think he was a vegetarian; I seem to recall (intro to M> _Tetrascroll_) something to the effect of "he ate steak and peas M> every day, this was his only dinner." I just wonder if he ever M> said anything about killing non-human animals. This may help: In 9 Chains to the Moon, Fuller asks if it might make more sense to honour our dead by burying their can-opener rather than their discarded body. I don't know specifics about his attitude toward specifically "non-human animals", but I do know Bucky considered all life as immutable, repeatedly stating that the weight of an organism does not change with death, yet the pattern integrity begins to dissolve upon the departure of the Phantom Captain. M> Michael "one acre of greens insteada pigs yields 20x more protien" M> Stutz Do we know the weight of wildlife slaughtered and then left unused by the mechanical plowing of one acre of farmland? I'm not an advocate, I've just always been curious. Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 ---------------------------------------- The reality of me is just me ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:47:20 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Manhattan dome In-Reply-To: <199501260743.AA10749@charon.osc.on.ca> (message from Ted Campbell on Wed, 25 Jan 1995 21:20:14 -0700) > "Ted" == Ted Campbell writes: Ted> I simply can't believe that inventinging things is going to solve Ted> all of the worlds problems. Whether or not one chooses to get Ted> involved in political game playing, one needs to address the fact Ted> that other people are playing politics and inventing things is Ted> not going to change that fact. Name three lasting changes brought about by pure politics. Here are three very clear, wide-ranging changes (social, architectural, cultural, economic ...) brought about by pure inventions: 1) The chimney 2) The flush-toilet 3) The assembly line Ted> There are even more serious problems the mere political game Ted> playing. People believe differently and live differently as a Ted> result of their beliefs. How does Buckminster Fuller address the Ted> problem of a Jewish homeland? Well, I can answer that: Fuller Ted> addresses it by saying that anti-semitism is the result of "not Ted> enough to go around." He believes that inventing things will stop Ted> the anti-semites from killing us. Fuller is wrong. Despite the best efforts of the finest tyrants the world has ever known, world literacy is at an all-time high, global communications is virtually unstoppable and the global standard of living, even for the very poor, is considerably improved over the previous century. Your can-opener, your door-knobs, computers, automobiles, shirts and shoes do not care about your beliefs ... neither did their inventors ... and yet they work for you exactly as they work for everyone else. Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 ---------------------------------------- The reality of me is just me ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 16:41:39 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Company, Inc. Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? cjf@netaxs.com (Chris Fearnley) wrote: > > Michael Stutz (stutz@RS6000.BALDWINW.EDU) wrote: > > What did he have to say about food, especially eating meat? I don't > > think he was a vegetarian; > I believe he said that steak had more calories/nutrition per mouthful > than vegetarian. In Hugh Kenner's book, Bucky was quoted as saying something to the effect of, ``The cows convert the grass into protein for me.'' This is exactly what I learned in biochemistry back in high school, too. A purely vegetarian diet -- meaning no meat, even fish, and no eggs or milk, either -- is quite deficient in protein usable by humans. It isn't even a matter of caloric content, but of protein configuration. (What follows is somewhat of a simplification.) Any protein can exist in two forms, called the D form and the L form in biochemistish, which are mirror-images of each other. Animals largely use the L form and plants largely use the D form. Because the enzymes used by cells are highly specific due to geometry, the enzymes that act on the L forms cannot act on the D forms, and vice versa. Some proteins are symmetrical, and of course the D and L forms are indistinguishable. Thus, humans are not able to process most of the protein that exists in plants. Also, much nutritional value of plants is wasted because the vitamins and minerals are not in the proper proportions for absorption by humans, or are not properly chelated. Cows -- and other plant-eating animals -- possess mechanisms for breaking down plant proteins into forms they can use to build their tissues; these tissues, of course, are in the proper form and proportion for humans to process into their own tissues. In the case of cows, for example, they have complex stomachs in which the plant matter can be heated and slowly broken down into its usable components. Humans have no such mechanism. Bucky wrote in several places of the conversion of solar energy into his physical being, following the chain from sun to grass to cow to steak to him. He obviously had a clear grasp of what he was doing. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 12:54:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Manhattan dome >People believe differently and live differently as a result of their >beliefs. Agreed. Not everyone is interested in Bucky, or in building/living in geodesic domes. >How does Buckminster Fuller address the problem of a Jewish >homeland? I always thought this issue was ridiculous -- "God gave us this patch of land." It's one thing if a group of people were banished from every country and didn't have a place to live, but the idea of wanting a patch of land on the surface of this planet on which to live happily ever after always struck me as ... so damn medieval. I know everybody has to have a place to live but I guess I'm not very fond of the idea of "nations" anymore. I'd like to say that humans should be free to wander wherever they please, but then how do you draw the line between "public" and "private" space? Just as I'd like to say that a person should be able to walk around wherever they please, I wouldn't want said person to come marching into my house just because they want to. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 13:26:21 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Chris said: >> What did he have to say about food, especially eating meat?' >I don't recall any comments on killing animals (he disapproved of >killing people, in case you didn't know). I don't want to come off like an overzealous vegetarian ;-) , but I'm really interested in this. Part of what appealed to me about Fuller's world view was that he'd said "war is obsolete." As far as I can tell, we've *always* fought wars; to enter an age were real "peace" would be possible would really be something. Fuller seemed to suggest that, through artifact creation etc., 100% of humanity would be fed/clothed/etc., and through our increased networked-ness, more humans would be able to communicate with more humans, making for massive decentralization, ergo no "world rulers" ergo no "nations" to battle each other out -- we'd be leaving our old age of ignorance (and, I would add, entering a new age of ignorance -- its just that the "world problems" would no longer be human-to-human warfare). Now, it would seem to me that this wouldn't be just a world where humans don't kill other humans, but where humans don't kill other sentient beings. If I chase someone with a knife and start jabbing at them etc., they'll scream, they'll be scared, they'll show fear -- so would a dog or a fish or a chicken. And this might sound sick but really, I don't think a human would taste all that different from a chicken or whatever. Yes humans have minds and for all we can tell other animals don't -- humans are the "timebinding" animals of symbolic thought -- so I'm not saying "I'll kill a human before a fish" or even "I'd kill them both equally," but its still killing a sentient being, and this is a problem I've never seen fully resolved. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 11:38:11 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Suzanne E Chaney Subject: Dymaxion Car and Dwelling Machine Hi All, I am fairly new to this list and I am not familiar with Fuller's inventions. But I have been following your fascinating postings and I am not familiar with the terms Dymaxion Car and Dwelling Machine. Can anyone tell me what they are, how they're made, and why they didn't work for our current society? Suzanne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 17:13:04 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Manhattan dome (Plus General Philo.) [Ted writes in response to Rob] >I simply can't believe that inventinging things is going to solve all of >the worlds problems. Whether or not one chooses to get involved in >political game playing, one needs to address the fact that other people >are playing politics and inventing things is not going to change that fact. >There are even more serious problems the mere political game playing. >People believe differently and live differently as a result of their >beliefs. How does Buckminster Fuller address the problem of a Jewish >homeland? Well, I can answer that: Fuller addresses it by saying that >anti-semitism is the result of "not enough to go around." He believes >that inventing things will stop the anti-semites from killing us. >Fuller is wrong. > >--Ted Allow me to say first, although it is easy to brave when nobody is pointing a gun at you, that I would jump in front of the bullet aimed at you. Allow me to say secondly that this argument is IMHO the MOST important issue about Fuller's philosophy. I think Fuller had political opinions but kept them to himself in order to be as apolitical as possible. I think, however, that I cannot refuse to play the political game and still be moral--- but for me right now, my only politics is voting and talking to people in forums like this. Voting matters, IMHO, but not as much as the others things I can do (Universe/God willing!). I don't think Fuller suggested there would be an end to hate-killings. Perhaps he did believe there might be an end to mass killings (of course Fuller was never certain that mankind as a whole would be a "successful invention" = choose utopia rather than oblivion). And I tend to agree with him, although I am not 100% certain. Perhaps the Jewish homeland question is the thorniest problem on the planet. That makes it the perfect test for Fuller's philosophy. I am a mostly disinterested and only-a-little-better- than-averaged informed person. So let me pose you the following question: What would happend if EVERY person who currently resides or claims a right to reside in such lands were offered one million dollars and citizenship in any country they choose outside of that land in exchange for giving up their claim? I KNOW many people would not take it. I KNOW there would still be people willing to do violence for it. But I believe that the problem would be ameliorated. Certainly, some people in that debate claim money is the motivation for the other side. When does "amelioration" become "solution"? Maybe never. But I personally think I can do more good by attempting technological invention than through politics. Therefore it is my duty to do so, and in the most effective way (in my own opinion) possible. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 18:40:55 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ted Campbell Subject: Re: Manhattan dome On Thu, 26 Jan 1995, Michael Stutz wrote: > >People believe differently and live differently as a result of their > >beliefs. > > Agreed. Not everyone is interested in Bucky, or in building/living in > geodesic domes. > > > >How does Buckminster Fuller address the problem of a Jewish > >homeland? > > I always thought this issue was ridiculous -- "God gave us this patch > of land." It's one thing if a group of people were banished from > every country and didn't have a place to live, but the idea of wanting > a patch of land on the surface of this planet on which to live happily > ever after always struck me as ... so damn medieval. I know everybody > has to have a place to live but I guess I'm not very fond of the idea > of "nations" anymore. I'd like to say that humans should be free to > wander wherever they please, but then how do you draw the line between > "public" and "private" space? Just as I'd like to say that a person > should be able to walk around wherever they please, I wouldn't want > said person to come marching into my house just because they want to. > The problem of a Jewish homeland is not really a question of a "patch of land" We do not want to draw lines in the sand, we want to live with our people because we love them. Diaspora makes us sick at heart and we can only be happy when we are with our people. The anti-semite has always tried to take our land, not because of the land itself, but because of what Israel means to us. Anti-semites have taken it before and they are trying to take it now because they know it crushes our spirit. The Land of Israel has no monetary value. The Land of Israel is a place where Jews can go to be with each other, to live the Jewish way and to escape tyrany of evil men which have enslaved and murdered Jews. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 18:49:03 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ted Campbell Subject: yesha news service, wednesday 25 january 1995 (fwd) X-To: geodesic%ubvm@mitvma.mit.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 22:45:20 +0200 (IST) From: Avigail Frij To: Info from the Yesha Council of Jewish Communities in Judea Samaria and Gaza Subject: yesha news service, wednesday 25 january 1995 YESHA NEWS SERVICE, WEDNESDAY 25 JANUARY 1995 (In conjunction with Arutz 7) OFFICIAL DOCUMENT ON PLO VIOLATIONS OF OSLO & CAIRO AGREEMENTS The Attorney General's office has officially compiled a list, signed by Brig.-Gen. David Yahav, of violations of the Oslo Accord and Cairo Agreement on the part of the PLO. Although this document has been hinted at numerous times by the opposition, its existence wasn't confirmed until Monday when MK Benny Begin released the secret report to the Knesset Security and Foreign Affairs committee. The document deals with dozens of violations ranging from major security issues to fraud. Among the violations are: *Refusal to extradite to Israel those Arabs suspected of murdering Jews *Refusal to take measures in preventing anti-Israel terror *Conducting illegal PLO operations in Jerusalem *The use of registered PLO police weapons in the terror attack in Jerusalem's pedestrian mall last October *Refusal to provide Israel with a list of all the PLO police in Gaza and Jericho *The PLO police's use of stolen vehicles *PLO patrols outside of the autonomous areas *Taking civil authority upon itself in Judea and Samaria before receiving approval by Israel [Ma'ariv & Jerusalem Post, 24 January] POLL SHOWS COUNTRY DOESN'T FEEL SECURE In a recent poll conducted by "Dahaf" for Yediot Ahronot, more than 60% of those questioned expressed disappointment with the government due to feeling a lack of national security and poor treatment of residents of Yesha. 36% expressed disappointment with the government because of the continuation of Arab terror. 28% expressed disappointment because of the government's attitude toward the Jewish residents of Yesha. This was followed by only 16% expressing disappointment for economic reasons and another 20% for other reasons or refusal to answer. All those polled were people who originally expected good results from the current government and were then disappointed. [Yediot Ahronot, 20 January] RABIN: SOLUTION TO TERROR IS TOTAL SEPARATION Both Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Foreign Minister Shimon Peres claim the only real solution to stopping Arab terror against Jews is via a separation between the peoples. [Jerusalem Post, 24 January]. In light of this, Rabin is establishing a ministerial committee to decide upon the ways to bring about a separation between Israel within the pre-'67 borders and those areas captured during the 1967 war. The committee's ministerial composition has not yet been revealed. Rabin claims he is not referring to having a fence built to divide the two areas, but rather a series of road blocks. One source says such a plan will take about a year to complete and would cost approximately 700 million shekel. "This idea of establishing security barricades really speaks to my heart," said Peres, and added that he hopes such a plan would really work to fight terror and not peace. [Yediot Ahronot, 25 January] Yesha's leaders have categorically denounced these plans. In an interview with the Jerusalem Post, Yesha Council Foreign Desk Executive Yechiel Leiter said, "Rabin's suggestion is nothing more than a fig leaf to cover the nakedness of his policies. The fence idea is ideologically bankrupt because Israel was supposed to end the ghettoization of the Jewish People. It is a logistical impossibility because you simply cannot build an effective fence 350 kilometers long. It is also foolish from a security standpoint because it won't keep anyone out. Despite a fence on Israel's norther border, the IDF still has to operate massively in south Lebanon, and this in addition to the Southern Lebanese Army. Security for Israel must be of a deterrent nature, not a defensive one which leaves the initiative in the hands of the terrorists." [Ma'ariv, 24 January & Jerusalem Post, 25 January] ARAFAT'S RESPONSE TO BEIT LID ATTACK "We will not permit anyone to damage our dream of establishing a Palestinian state... We are the ones overturning history. We will not permit anyone to damage our dream of establishing [our] state through such acts. Now I want to ask Dr. Fathi Shikaki of Syria, leader of Islamic Jihad, why he doesn't carry out such attacks along the Israel-Syria border? I want to reveal to you a secret. Israel had agreed to release 1,700 Palestinian prisoners in the coming days. But because of this attack, they are not to be released, and there is also now a curfew and our workers cannot go to Israel to work. The safe passage route between Gaza and Jericho has also been closed. "What do those who disturb our cease-fire with Israel want? Do they want to kill the Palestinian dream? Let us fulfill our dream; let us try to build our Palestinian state, in which our small children will be able to hand the Palestinian flag on the Mosque of Jerusalem, our capital," said PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat, without mentioning any regrets over the suffering and damage incurred by Sunday's attack. The Oslo Accords clearly obligate Arafat to unequivocally condemn terror attacks perpetrated against Israel. Arafat also asked Prime Minister Rabin not to impose a curfew following every attack, because it causes so many problems. [Yediot Ahronot, 25 January] ASHARA: ISRAEL RESPONSIBLE FOR SUNDAY'S ATTACK According to Syria's Foreign Minister Farouk Ashara, Israel itself is responsible for the terrorist attack at Beit Lid on Sunday, and that if Israel would really live up to its responsibilities according to its agreements with the Palestinians, Judea, Samaria and Gaza would become areas of peace and quiet. "Israel will never be able to join together peace with occupation. They just don't go together. Israel is just pretending she wants peace. If she really wanted peace, she would grant the Palestinians their due rights and fulfill the principle of "territories for peace", also in their other paths of negotiations," said Ashara. [Yediot Ahronot, 25 January] FATHIA SHIKAKI RETURNS TO JERUSALEM Fathia Shikaki, wife of Fathi Shikaki, Syria's Islamic Jihad leader responsible for organizing Sunday's attack, has returned to Jerusalem to the home of her family, and awaits a legal decision of whether or not her Israeli identity card can be renewed. "The attack on Sunday was a response to the killing of Hani Abed and the three Palestinian policemen. This [terror] is the only language you understand. You speak to us in this language, and so we need to speak to you in the same language," said Fathia, making no secret of her hatred for Israel. When asked what she thinks about the peace process, Fathia responded, "Israel is making peace with Arafat. Arafat doesn't represent the Palestinians. Arafat doesn't represent anyone other than himself." Fathia plans an immediate return to Syria once her business is completed here. [Yediot Ahronot, 25 January] HANEGBI SUBMITS BILL AGAINST RELEASING PRISONERS Likud MK Tsahi Hanegbi submitted a bill to the Knesset which would prevent the release of Arab prisoners guilty of murder. The bill was in response to the news that one of the terrorists responsible for the Beit Lid attack had been released from jail according to stipulations in the DOP and Cairo agreement. [Israel Radio, 25 January] NEW COMMITTEE LIMITS BUILDING IN GREATER JERUSALEM The newly established ministerial committee to reconsider building permits in Yesha has decided not to stop building projects already approved, but will in effect impede progress toward any further building. Plans to build 1,024 units in Beitar, 300 in Givat Zeev and 500 in Ma'ale Adumim will continue, but no new building for immediate implementation will be planned. The mayors of these cities had hoped to build 5,000 units collectively over the next year. No decision was taken by the committee today on Efrat and Gush Etzion. This committee is headed by Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, Housing Minister Benjamin Ben Eliezer and Communications minister Shulamit Aloni. [Israel Radio & Yesha Council, 25 January] GABAI'S MURDERER GETS LIFE Wahib Abu Al Rob, 25, from Kabatiya, was sentenced to life imprisonment by the Upper Nazareth Court for the terrorist murder of IDF soldier Liat Gabai in Afula this past November. The terrorist admitted to the murder and was quickly sentenced. [Ma'ariv, 24 January] IDF PATROL COMES UNDER ATTACK IN GAZA An IDF patrol came under attack Monday afternoon in Gaza; the patrol was shot at as it headed toward Netzarim. There were no injuries. The attack took place as the patrol was moving out from the checkpoint in the direction of Netzarim. Suddenly, shots were fired at them from within autonomous Gaza. The IDF patrol returned fire at the terrorists. The patrol closed the area and began a search, at which point they were shot at a second time. [Yediot Ahronot, 24 January] ATTACK IN SOUTH LEBANON One Israeli soldier was killed, a second critically wounded and a third moderately wounded when Arab terrorists ambushed an IDF patrol early Wednesday morning. There has been an intensification of terror attacks in southern Lebanon since Sunday's massacre at Beit Lid. [Israel Radio & Yesha Council, 25 January] **** The Yesha Council is the representative body of the 144 Jewish communities ("settlements") in Yesha (Judea, Samaria and Gaza). The Yesha News Service, a service of the Yesha Council Foreign Desk, compiles news and information regarding and affecting Yesha's Jewish communities. To subscribe to the Yesha Council Mailing List, send a message to listserv@israel.nysernet.org (NOT to yesha@israel.nysernet.org) containing the line "subscribe Yesha Your Name" (substituting your real name, and omitting the quotation marks). YESHA COUNCIL of Jewish Communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza 16B Ramat HaGolan Street, Jerusalem 97704 Israel Tel. (972-2) 810-624 Fax. (972-2) 814-072 Electronic mail list: List moderator: Avigail Frij ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 00:02:46 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: Lets keep it out of this forum As a displaced Palestinian I could surely post all sorts of information about how evil I think Israel is, and maybe I will, but DEFINITELY NOT ON THIS LIST, FOR IT HAS NO PLACE HERE AND IS NOT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE WORKS OF RBF! Keep your smelly propaganda to yourself. I am waiting for a reinterpretation of the Bible where all the Earth is Zion and all of its children have been chosen--ET \/\/\/\/\/Elias Tabello\/\/\/\/etabello@chat.carleton.ca\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\ I am waiting | for the discovery | of a new symbolic western frontier | from 'I am waiting' and I am waiting | by Lawrence Ferlinghetti for the American Eagle | from A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND to really spread its wings | and straighten up and fly right | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 00:55:00 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: bit.listserve.geodesic How does bit.listserv.geodesic to this mailing list. I find that I can browse thru recent additions to the list by specifying bit.list... as a newsgroup. It doesent seem to be updated very fast however. Just wondering? \/\/\/\/\/Elias Tabello\/\/\/\/etabello@chat.carleton.ca\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\ I am waiting | for the discovery | of a new symbolic western frontier | from 'I am waiting' and I am waiting | by Lawrence Ferlinghetti for the American Eagle | from A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND to really spread its wings | and straighten up and fly right | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 00:41:23 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? In-Reply-To: <9501260713.AA07466@chat.carleton.ca>; from "Michael Stutz" at Jan 26, 95 1:58 am Michael Stutz writes: > > What did he have to say about food, especially eating meat? I don't This is from Cosmic Fishing: 'Fuller's staple, or at least his preferred diet at every meal, is steak, a diet that helps him to keep his weight trim, suppress a tendency to diverticulitis [?], and avove all refuel those enormous stores of evergy. His rate of metabolism would be the envy of a shrew. When young vegetarians express dismay at his beef-eating vice--it does not conform to their idea of his persona--he has to explain that the cows are eating much more vegetation and converting it to protein than he could possibly cope with at first hand.' I guess with such a busy schedule he had to ingest as many calories as possible. I always thought that a grain based diet, with relatively small portions of vegetables and possibly meat was exeptionally healthy and not such a burden to our planet. \/\/\/\/\/Elias Tabello\/\/\/\/etabello@chat.carleton.ca\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\ I am waiting | for the discovery | of a new symbolic western frontier | from 'I am waiting' and I am waiting | by Lawrence Ferlinghetti for the American Eagle | from A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND to really spread its wings | and straighten up and fly right | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 01:43:38 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? Elias, quoting _Cosmic Fishing_: >When young vegetarians express dismay at his beef-eating >vice--it does not conform to their idea of his persona-- Heh heh. I guess that would be me. .', >I always thought that a grain based diet, with relatively small >portions of vegetables and possibly meat was exeptionally healthy and >not such a burden to our planet. That's what I thought, too. I know this: I have been healthier & more energetic since I stopped eating meat. I've felt "lighter," too; other vegetarians've told me the same thing, that their new diet doesn't feel so "heavy" on them. I don't know how else to explain it but it feels ok. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 02:03:52 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Manhattan dome >The problem of a Jewish homeland is not really a question of a "patch of >land" We do not want to draw lines in the sand, we want to live with our >people because we love them. I wonder whether or not "virtual" communities online could be a possibility. I'll tell you what -- even though I said this: >> I always thought this issue was ridiculous -- "God gave us this patch >> of land." Even though I say & believe that -- like, in a whole transient universe why bicker over a particular spot of ground, I have felt very strong psychic connections with certain physical places. It's this mystical-ness that I have felt which makes me wonder just how "ridiculous" it really is. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 05:59:52 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? Michael Stutz (stutz@RS6000.BALDWINW.EDU) wrote: > I don't want to come off like an overzealous vegetarian ;-) , but I'm > really interested in this. Part of what appealed to me about Fuller's > world view was that he'd said "war is obsolete." As far as I can > tell, we've *always* fought wars; to enter an age were real "peace" > would be possible would really be something. Fuller seemed to suggest > that, through artifact creation etc., 100% of humanity would be > fed/clothed/etc., and through our increased networked-ness, more > humans would be able to communicate with more humans, making for > massive decentralization, ergo no "world rulers" ergo no "nations" to > battle each other out -- we'd be leaving our old age of ignorance > (and, I would add, entering a new age of ignorance -- its just that > the "world problems" would no longer be human-to-human warfare). Now, > it would seem to me that this wouldn't be just a world where humans > don't kill other humans, but where humans don't kill other sentient > beings. If I chase someone with a knife and start jabbing at them > etc., they'll scream, they'll be scared, they'll show fear -- so would > a dog or a fish or a chicken. And this might sound sick but really, I > don't think a human would taste all that different from a chicken or > whatever. Yes humans have minds and for all we can tell other animals > don't -- humans are the "timebinding" animals of symbolic thought -- > so I'm not saying "I'll kill a human before a fish" or even "I'd kill > them both equally," but its still killing a sentient being, and this > is a problem I've never seen fully resolved. OK, I'll bite :) I'm convinced that there is nothing inherently "wrong" with killing people. As Fuller said "It is the author's working assumption that the words _good_ and _bad_ are meaningless". But I have __chosen__ to VALUE people, ALL people, immensely. So I am vehemently opposed to war, murder, and abuse of all forms. Likewise I could CHOOSE to value animals as much as I do people. But it is a somewhat arbitrary choice (just as my choice to value people is arbitrary). I think we all need to reevaluate our values very carefully: what are you willing to take a stand for? Just because some action would make a good heart-wrenching TV saga doesn't make it ethical. I do think there is an intellectual Integrity in Universe. Perhaps ethics could be defined as supporting the Integrity of Universe. But even so the practical matters seem to me to demand that each situation must be evaluated separately: Should Pol Pot have been murdered (or at least stopped)? These are questions that are nearly impossible to evaluate as supporting/erroding the integrity of Universe - especially since I'm only part of GOD (and perhaps even a malignant cancerous part) and don't know her full value structure. So does killing animals for food violate the Integrity of Universe? Some would argue it does (my sister, for example), others that it absolutely doesn't, and I argue that I simply don't know enough about the Integrity of Universe to know for sure. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 06:13:48 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? Chris Rywalt (crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com) wrote: > In Hugh Kenner's book, Bucky was quoted as saying something to the effect > of, ``The cows convert the grass into protein for me.'' > This is exactly what I learned in biochemistry back in high school, too. A > purely vegetarian diet -- meaning no meat, even fish, and no eggs > or milk, either -- is quite deficient in protein usable by humans. > It isn't even a matter of caloric content, but of protein > configuration. I always heard this too. Lately, I have heard nothing but controversy on this issue. I haven't collected citations on this subject (you might check the vegetarian FAQ). But I've seen nutritionists start to question these old (meat-industry financed) views. For me the jury is still out. Probably further discussion should be conducted in a more appropriate newsgroup. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 04:34:34 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Comments: Resent-From: Chris Fearnley Comments: Originally-From: fischer@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu (Jack Fischer) From: Chris Fearnley ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ****************************************************************************** THIS MESSAGE IS BEING SENT TO YOU BY THE BUCKY SERVICE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA. IF YOU WISH TO RESPOND, PLEASE USE THE ADDRESS GIVEN IN THE MESSAGE. PLEASE DO NOT DIRECT YOUR RESPONSE TO BUCKY OR FISCHER. THANK YOU. ****************************************************************************** Invitation to Fullerene Symposium in the IV International Conference on Advanced Materials, Aug. 27 to Sept. 1, 1995, in Cancun, Mexico Symposium 3: Expanded Horizon of Fullerene Science and Technology The active research of fullerene has witnessed five years of hectic era after the Kraechmer-Huffman experiment. Expectations are now gradually mounting for the appearance of the first industrial application of fullerenes. In view of the rapid expansion that have taken place in all areas of natural science and high-technology research involving fullerenes, it seems worthwhile to review the progress at this time, and look into the future perspective. A balanced forum will be provided from the invited lectures by established researchers and the contributed papers on fresh results. Emphasis will be laid in this Symposium on the latest developments in the exploration of the original research and the possibilities of industrial application of fullerenes including all the new forms of carbon. Contributed papers will be solicited to emphasize the following topics: Fundamentals of chemistry and physics Structural studies, formation and mechanism Chemical derivatization, solubilization Heterofullerenes including novel concepts on non-carbon fullerenes Nanotubes, nanoparticles, helical coils, and other novel forms Mechanism of formation, improved techniques of preparation and purification Electrochemistry Solid state physics Conductivity and superconductivity Theory and computations Biological effects and application to medicinal areas Partial list of invited speakers who consented to present lectures in alphabetical order: Y. Achiba (Tokyo Metropolitan University, Japan), R. N. Compton (Oak Ridge Nat. Lab., USA), D. Cox (Exxon Research, USA), T. Ebbesen (NEC, USA), S. Eguchi (Nagoya University, Japan), P. Fowler (University of Exeter, UK), M. Fujita (University of Tsukuba, Japan), R. C. Haddon (AT&T Bell, USA), T. Hashizume (Hitachi, Japan), R. J. Hwu (National Tsing Hua University, Taiwan), S. Ihara (Hitachi, Japan), H. Koinuma (Tokyo Institute of Technology, Japan), H. W. Kroto (University of Sussex, UK), A. Mackay (University of London, UK), R. Malhotra (SRI, USA), Y. Maruyama (IMS, Japan), J. W. Mintmire (Naval Research Laboratory, USA), C. A. Mirkin (Northwestern University, USA), F. Okino (Shinshu University, Japan), E. Osawa (Toyohashi University of Technology, Japan), C. A. Reed (USC, USA), M. Saunders (Yale University, USA), H. Shinohara (Nagoya University, Japan), A. B. Smith III (University of Pennsylvania, USA), S. Seraphin (University of Arizona, USA), R. Taylor (University of Sussex, UK), H. Terrones (UNAMS, Mexico), J. Weaver (University of Minnesota, USA), S. Yamago (Tokyo Institute of Technology, Japan) Abstract Deadline: May 31, 1995 Abstract Forms and the Second Circular may be obtained from Prof. M. J. Yacaman, Chairman IV-ICAM, Instituto de Fisica, UNAM, A.P.20-364, Delegacion Alvaro Obregon, 01000 Mexico, D.F.Mexico, Phone 525-622-5033, Fax 525-616-1535 For more information, contact to one of the following symposium organizers Long Y. Chiang (Chairman), National Taiwan University, Center for Condensed, Matter Sciences, 1 Roosevelt Road, Section 4, Taipei, Taiwan 10764. Phone: 886-2-362-5507, Fax: 886-2-365-5404 or 362-5507, E-mail: lychiang@ccms.ntu.edu.tw Eiji Osawa, Computational Chemistry Group, Department of Knowledge-based Information Engineering, Toyohashi University of Technology, Toyohashi 441, Japan, Phone: 81-532-48-5588, Fax: 81-532-48-5588, E-mail: osawa@cochem.tutkie.tut.ac.jp Humberto Terrones, Instituto de Fisica, UNAM, Apartado Postal 20-364, Delegacion Alvaro Obregon, 01000 Mexico, D. F. Mexico, Phone: 525-622-5106, Fax: 525-570-8503, E-mail: terrones@ifunam.ifisicacu.unam.mx Martin Saunders, Department of Chemistry, Yale University, New Haven, Conn., U. S. A., Phone and Fax: 1-203-432-3974, E-mail: SAUNDERS@BIOMED.MED.YALE.EDU, ms@gaus90.chem.yale.edu /************************************************* * Eiji Osawa * Department of Knowledge-based Information Engineering * Toyohashi University of Technology * Aichi 441, Japan * Phone: x-81-532-47-0111(ex. 853) * FAX: x-81-532-48-5588 * E-mail: osawa@cochem.tutkie.tut.ac.jp *************************************************/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 00:36:19 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: bullywug@AMERICA.NET Organization: Access America, P.O. Box 1222, Alpharetta, GA 30239-1222 Subject: Re: Fuller and utopia In article <9501250609.AA39903@rs6000.baldwinw.edu>, Michael Stutz wrote: > On Tue, 24 Jan, Marcia wrote: > > > I've also done a conference presentation (American > >Culture/Popular Culture Assoc'n 1993) on the influence of Fuller's > >architecture (the geodesic dome in particular) and philosophy on science > >fiction film. I looked at SILENT RUNNING, SLAUGHTERHOUSE 5, > >QUINTET, LOGAN'S RUN, and I'm blanking out on the others at the moment. > > Did you look at "Blade Runner"? I know that it was based on William > Gibson's _Neuromancer_, which contains references to the "geodesics" > of the cityscape. Minor correction: BLADE RUNNER was based on a Philip K. Dick novel entitled DO ALL ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP. I can recall no references to Fuller in either the movie or the novel. It is generally grouped with cyberpunk films. Gibson's NEUROMANCER is the most popular novel of that genre. Gibson does make references to domes as do several cyberpunk authors. regards, Brent. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 07:54:46 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rob Pollock Subject: Recent Stuff I applaud all who have been contributing much entertaining things on our list, lately. I admit that I enjoy the non-tech stuff more than the math based stuff from late 94/early 95!~ ~ RE: Israel and all~ ~ The thing about Israel that intrigues me is the (is it a fact or "smelly" propoganda ;-) ) fact that the desert is now blooming (in places!), where it was once a sun baked wasteland. Not sure how much politics was involved, other than providing an opportunity for some very resourceful people to attempt real-time use of many inventions - especially drip irrigation and advanced greenhouses.~ ~ Re: Wars~ ~ Wars have been a part of history. There is a lot of money to be made! Any other reasons kind of seem to pale in significance, IMHO. (Power is right up there, and not the kind that will light your lights and run your mail reading computer!)~ ~ Re: Animal Intelligence~ ~ People used to think that slaves/peasents/serfs had no soul, and could not comprehend the finer things of life (such as lording it over slaves/peasents/serfs). The logical extension to this was that they had limited intelligence (if any!). I know this isn't cat.talk.list or dog.talk.list, but, I know my cats have feelings, and they definitely respond to situations in not-just reflexive manners. I don't have a dog, but I sure see some smart dogs helping blind people get around.~ ~ Intelligence is relative. Compared to such smart creatures as ourselves, a cat/rat/horse has so much less intelligence - shoot, they can't read, now can they? There is no way that they could understand the finer points of watching a hockey game or the Super Bowl, or some of the high level math that goes on here. (Uh oh, I can't understand the math stuff!!! 8-( and it looks like another Super Bore, though, as usual, I will be rooting on the underdogs.)~ ~ RE: Manhattan dome~ ~ ventilation - we would need to ventilate the thing, in addition to providing plants. NASA had some studies that showed Spider plants (sorry to all who don't know what these are! I am not a botanist, and don't know the latin name) take up a larger amount of heavy chemicals and other crud than most plants, so Spider plants for all!. The manhattan dome (and other domes/one building cities) would have to have a large ventilation system. I live by the Megamall in Minnesota, USA, and people don't seem to be getting sick from the air. Now, eating at the fast food places and getting on the roller coaster, well....~ ~ costs - the cost of snow removal was estimated to pay for the dome in about ten years (back in the seventies?) another huge source of savings is the reduced amount of surface area. Current cities have these enourmous spikes jutting into the air (mine is bigger than yours ;-) ) and these create a lot of surface area to have heat/cool. Well, mainly cool. Even up here in the US Tundra, my 40 story building doesn't use much heat. That comes from the lights (and hot air from folks like me!), and mail reading/generating devices. I guess we suck in the 10 below 0 (F) air, in the depths of winter.~ ~ politics - a dome would require cooperation on a mega scale. Uh oh, that means politics, as usual. Minneapolis has an extensive system of what are known as "Skyways" - buildings are connected at the second floor with enclosed bridges, and corridors in the buildings are lined with shops, kiosks, restaurants. You don't have to go outside in the Winter or Summer, though sometimes, due to making existing structures use these structures, it is far quicker to use the street than to wind around in the sometime labarinthene (is that a word, yet) corridors. So, in effect, we have this huge 20 (30? 40?) block structure. I mentioned the dome to a few people, not of the Geodesic type mind frame, and they laughed and scoffed at the idea. (Kind of reminds me of the way people - the masses, or at least the media pundits - reacted when the Skyways were first talked about, way back when.) Again, the invention has dragged people to the point where they don't even think about it. Unfortunately, they don't logically extend the idea to the next step :-( which is, IMHO to construct, mega structures. I feel that this will be done by smaller countries than the USA, due to land constraints, mainly. I feel that we need to come up with an expanding type of structure - at least for the initial cities - to drag others along. The immense cost of doming an existing city seems to make for political suicide, at least for the next 20 years. Also, I feel that a company/group (The Geodesic List Inc???) is going to have to do this. The initial skyways were built to connect a company's two buildings, I seem to remember.~ ~ That's enough for now, no??? (Many hearty cheers of , Yes Yes, and a few of "I didn't even read this far!")~ ~ rob@decisionsys.com~ of course, this is all my stuff, and not my employer/company/etc. public domain, why not? nothing Earth shattering here!~ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 09:13:46 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: yesha news service, wednesday 25 january 1995 (fwd) In-Reply-To: ; from "Ted Campbell" at Jan 26, 95 6:49 pm THIS TYPE OF INFO DOES NOT BELONG ON THE GEODESIC DISCUSSION GROUP!!! PLEASE DON'T DO IT AGAIN. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:14:42 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Rywalt Organization: Prodigy Services Company, Inc. Subject: Re: Lets keep it out of this forum I agree to some extent that the discussion that has wandered past regarding the whole Israel thing belongs somewhere else. However, I feel compelle d to communicate my feelings on the original question, which was about how Fuller's philosophy might apply to the question of a Jewish homeland. The very concept of a ``Jewish homeland'' -- or ANY homeland, for that matter -- is totally and irretrievably antithetical to Buckminster Fuller's philosophy as I have read and interpreted it. The idea of being with ``our people'' in ``our land'' goes completely against the very basis of Fuller's ideas: he wrote repeatedly of the evolutionary trend that is breeding humans back into one race with one culture -- he coined the phrase ``one-town world.'' To attempt to segregate oneself into a group -- within boundaries drawn in imaginary dirt on a rectilinear and theoretically two-dimensional piece of paper -- is to go against the natural trendings of human society. If humanity does survive, all forms of bigotry -- whether espoused under the rubrics of ``nationalism,'' ``racism,'' ```sexism,'' ``multiculturalism,'' or simply ``religion'' -- will have been evolved out and will no longer exist or be understood. You have the choice to hold to such ideals; you have the choice to be left behind. There's an old joke: If you're not part of the solution, you'r e part of the precipitate. Bucky, I think, would have said that now is th e time -- now, not later -- to make the choice either to work for humanity -- which means throwing off your programmed reflexes and thinking for yourself -- or not to work for humanity -- and you can keep running down the corridors of your society-built rat maze. Chris. crywalt@tinman.dev.prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:36:18 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Markus De Shon Subject: protein Getting protein from vegetable matter is not as much of a problem as is usually supposed. Legumes (i.e. beans) are an excellent source of usable proteins. Particularly soybeans have a high content of usable proteins, especially in the form of tofu. The real problem with the plant --> animal --> steak path is that the tranfer of energy at each step is only 10% efficient. If you start with 100 kcal of vegetable matter, then feed it to a cow, then eat it, you are only getting 10kcal, whereas you would get the full 100kcal if you ate the vegetable matter directly. It is true that this would not be the case with, for example, grass, whose hydrocarbons are mostly in the form of cellulose, which is undigestible by humans. But cows are no longer raised in a meadow where they can eat the grass. Cows are now mostly raised indoors, and force-fed a diet of corn or whatever, i.e. food which could be eaten by humans directly. I'm surprised to learn of Bucky's attitude toward the vegetarian/meat-eating discussion. It sounds to me like he's doing an ad hoc justification. For the record, I am an omnivore (hey, now there's a word I'm sure Bucky loved using), but I don't eat much meat, i.e. I never buy it to eat at home, but I do sometimes eat meat when I go out. -- >>> Markus De Shon <<< ph297md@prism.gatech.edu Quote of the day: "I was once walking through the forest alone. A tree fell right in front of me -- and I didn't hear it." -- Steven Wright ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:06:27 -0500 Reply-To: JustWINK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: JustWINK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car and Dwelling Machine Suzanne, You have asked quite a question... I had the pleasure of helping to dis-assemble the Wichita House, the 2nd Dymaxion Dwelling Machine design and have a perspective on it. For a decent overview see Robert Mark's "THE DYMAXION WORLD OF BUCKMINSTER FULLER." Available in most libraries, worth buying an old copy. Why didn't they sell? Answers abound- don't buy into any single one. I have personally heard Bucky give 3 different reasons for the fall of the house project here in Wichita. Many others give radically different perspectives, and in the case of both projects there was a great deal of residual bitterness left behind. I will note that Bucky was just not a businessman, and like many forward-thinking Leonardo types, he was more interested in starting new design projects than in finishing old ones. And, in his perspective, neither project was a "failure." Jay Baldwin wrote an excellent article on the car for AUTOMOBILE magazine, JULY 88, titled "Dymaxion Transports." Don't pay any attention to the rumors that continue to resurface about a missing dymaxion car - The one in question was destroyed by a local metal dealer during the Korean war. The only one left is in the Harrah's automotive museum in Reno, Nevada, and will cost you plenty to see. I'm hoping it will find its way to the Dearborn museum, next to the DDM, with lots of other artifacts. Wink Charles E. Peck - 316 264 5658 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:01:59 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: Re: Manhattan dome In-Reply-To: <9501270647.AA13191@chat.carleton.ca>; from "Ted Campbell" at Jan 26, 95 6:40 pm Ted Campbell writes: > The Land of Israel is a place where Jews > can go to be with each other, to live the Jewish way and to escape > tyrany of evil men which have enslaved and murdered Jews. Since this is a discussion about the works of Buckminster Fuller, and since the way Israel got into this conversation was when Ted asked what would RBF say about a Jewish Homeland, I'd like to answer in these terms. I think one of the most important things that Bucky said was that we are responsible whenever we alter a system: We must take into account EVERYTHING and not just those things which lie in our desired resultant system, but also those things which have been inadvertently excluded from our system. See 814.00 Complementarity of System Surfaces in Synergetics. In his opinion, pollution is one of those things that have been caused by not taking into account every element of a system we change. It's funny that in most conversations about Israel, The Palestinians are only referred to as the PLO--equating them with notions of terrorism and all around bad management. I think that what was forgotten in the founding of Israel (a system) was that there were already people on the land. By calling yourself chosen, you have inadvertently called others unchosen. Israel is a perfect example of inconsideration of the whole system. We are all brothers. \/\/\/\/\/Elias Tabello\/\/\/\/etabello@chat.carleton.ca\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\ I am waiting | for the discovery | of a new symbolic western frontier | from 'I am waiting' and I am waiting | by Lawrence Ferlinghetti for the American Eagle | from A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND to really spread its wings | and straighten up and fly right | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:11:34 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car and Dwelling Machine Mr. JustWINK, Would you be kind enough to publicly speculate as to the failure of the dwelling machine? The perspective of anyone connected, including Ed Applewhite or Kiyoshi Kuromiya would be very important, not just for historical reasons but so that mistakes need not be repeated. The reasons that I have heard include: 0) From Fuller (can't remember source): Trade unions refused to install it. 1) From Loyd Steven Sieden's "Buckminster Fuller's Universe: An Appreciation" -- that Fuller was so demanding that he shut down the project by vetoing every proposed finalization. 2) That Fuller believed rigidly the world was not ready for the invention. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:31:05 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Organization: Carleton University Subject: (fwd) Recent Stuff >I mentioned the dome to a few people, not of the Geodesic >type mind frame, and they laughed and scoffed at the idea. Wow, this must be some kind of universal reaction. Even more to my suprise was when I brought the subject of to a bunch of Environmental Science students and they almost bit my head off. It seems that thier 'eco-philosopy' prof had nothing nice to say about domes. She just hoped that the world would never come to that point. I tried to tell them that a properly constructed dome could be 100% in constrast to the thousands of pounds of plywood, drywall/plaster, steel beams shingles, bricks and whatever else was in a house that would probably end up in a landfill at the end of its life. They could not care! They've been brainwashed by the proliferation of Marxist twits (not to say that Marx was a twit) that run the university. \/\/\/\/\/Elias Tabello\/\/\/\/etabello@chat.carleton.ca\/\/\/\/\//\/\/\ I am waiting | for the discovery | of a new symbolic western frontier | from 'I am waiting' and I am waiting | by Lawrence Ferlinghetti for the American Eagle | from A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND to really spread its wings | and straighten up and fly right | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 13:57:05 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Subject: Re: Moving beyond the Nations System? X-To: wholesys-l@netcom.com Brian Rauchfuss: >>What is needed for this is a better human being. Even if we discover a >>way to create a better human, we must leave it up to the individual, we can't >>impose our views on others without their consent. > Tim Temple replied: >Absolutely it must be left up the individual. This is in the realm of >personal mastery. What we (you and I) can do is to model, demonstrate and >teach personal mastery. The world changes one person at a time; of course >we start with ourselves (myself) and model what we want to world to become. >Easy to say, hard to do, and I don't see an effective alternative. > Kirby adds: And we can model, demonstrate and teach about artifacts. When civilization (a) invented the rudder, allowing better navigation control than hitherto, the outward rippling effect on civilizations (b) and (c) was enormous. Others spontaneously adopt what looks like a better, safer, easier, more effective way of doing what they already do. Personal mastery is very important, and can be amplified in meaning to include mastery of technology (tools), including language (which maps the spiritual dimensions), but if we're doing meditation all the time because our lives are over-stressed, it may be that an artifact (like an answering machine, like a dome retreat center in the back woods, like a better music system) would also be helpful. I'm not saying that running to the shopping center is the best fix for spiritual disquietude (the stereotype malaise of consumer culture, made worse by advertising). What I'm saying is that an excellent way to work for shared vision, and to get people coordinating around that vision, is to project it on the big (or little) screen, in the form of a dramatic production or storyboard. This is called "science fiction" and is very popular with TV audiences (Next Generation is 'top o the pops' on BBC 2) but has the drawback, these days, of being set so far in the future that we can never see "how do we get there from here?" They seem to not have money in The Federation, species get along pretty well, some awfully liberal ideas about relationships -- and very high living standards, what with replicators and all. But how did people get to that place? Despite the appeal, the 'fiction'componenet is way high, the 'science' (realism) way low. So.... what we need on television, IMHO, is science fiction that goes forward only about as far as The Waltons goes back (50 years or so). Most near-future SciFi already on TV is awfully dark (e.g. RoboCop) -- Blade Runner type stuff, which is very telling about our popular culture. I've also noticed a tendency for popular SciFi to hide out in the past (e.g. Quantum Leap) again avoiding the issue of trying to depict a real future. What this near-future Science Fiction will show, are working prototypes of artifacts. High tech dwelling units, of the types envisioned by Fuller, which have the aerospace look and feel, plus internal "control panel" aesthetics, giving their occupants "cockpit style" access to the internet, virtual reality, The Digital Age Library etc. But also other, more low tech alternatives. Downloader dish in the subtle background, with lots of getting-hands-dirty gardening and rural stuff in the foreground (The Waltons with a DBS dish so JohnBoy can download Emerson and Tolstoy -- and Fuller, another in that New England Transcendentalist Tradition). These dwelling machines may have brand name logos subtly displayed; the realism (science) will be very high, the fiction level appearing to decline, as we approach the projected future (this is called "phasing in a vision, making it real"). Viewers will think "hey, that looks real, and the technology is nothing we don't already have!" "Hey, I'd like to get one of those!" and "Hey, why don't I call Boeing?" USA OS, with its armies of unemployed defense contractors hungry for new civilian markets, will be ready this time. The World Livingry Service Industry will be born, and the Eagle, at last, will start flying straight.... I am waiting for the discovery of a new symbolic western frontier and I am waiting for the American Eagle to really spread its wings and straighten up and fly right from 'I am waiting' by Lawrence Ferlinghetti from A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND Kirby Urner ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY'S "BARE MAXIUM" CONCEPT BUCKY'S "BARE MAXIUM" CONCEPT A discussion of Bucky's concept of a "bare maxium" standard of living can be found at the following locations: "World Game Report" by M.Deren and M.Gabel, eds, New York Studio School of Painting and Sculpture, New York (Summer 1969) ? pages. "The World Game" by R.Buckminster Fuller, Ekistics (magazine), Greece (Oct 1969) pages 286-91. "Today Greenwich Village, Tomorrow the World" by staff, Think (IBM magazine) New York (Nov-Dec 1969) pages ? (3 pages) (no title) by G.Youngblood, Los Angeles Free Press (newspaper) Los Angeles (12-19-69) pages 1-2. "Technoanarchy, Part V: World Game Report" by G.Youngblood, Los Angeles Free Press (newspaper) Los Angeles (12-26-69) pages 3-5. "Inside Buckminster Fuller's Universe" by H.Taylor, Saturday Review (magazine) New York (5-2-70) pages ? (3 pages) 'Inventory of World Resources, Human Trends and Needs--Document 1: The World Game' by R.B.Fuller, Illinois (1971) pages 1-46 'Buckminster Fuller At Home In the Universe' by A.Hatch, New York (1974) pages 246-58. 'Critical Path' by R.B.Fuller, New York (1981) pages 198-226. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 15:30:32 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: protein [Markus De Shon writes] >I'm surprised to learn of Bucky's attitude toward the vegetarian/meat-eating >discussion. It sounds to me like he's doing an ad hoc justification. Maybe, but I think this is being a little hard on Fuller. After all, the man was born in 1895. Fuller was way ahead of his time in almost everything, especially ecological thinking. The fact that grain-fed beef is an inefficient use of the solar and land resources may not have been as true during his lifetime, or simply not as well understood. I am one of Fuller's biggest fans (my son is named after him.) But I don't believe he was always right, and I don't expect that his philosophy, which I embrace, doesn't need to be constantly adjusted in light of new understanding, new data, and even just improvements. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 17:57:54 AST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: asgan@ORION.ALASKA.EDU Organization: University of Alaska Subject: NEED HELP! Basically, I'm trying to design a geodome on a 3-d cad program, however as of yet I cannot fing the necessary algorithims, mathmatical formula, or even the angles needed. My local library has been unhelpful (the have books on Fuller but nothing with the info I need.) If any one has the data or the title of a book that would I'd greatly appreciate hearing about it. Thanks. Gordon. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 06:16:13 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: World Game Institute Organization: Drexel University Subject: World Game Institute From: Medard Gabel Subject: World Game It was with great interest that I read the comments concerning the World Game that have appeared in this space. The World Game Institute was referred to a number of times, as were some of our products. To help set the record straight, add some additional information about current World Game goings-on, and to see if any of you would be interested in working with us on taking some further steps, I would like to say: 1. The mission of the World Game Institute (WGI) is "to provide the perspective and information needed to solve the critical problems facing global society as we move into the 21st century." It is a 23 year old not-for-profit research and education organization that has presented its various World Game programs in 48 states and 24 countries for over 100,000 people. Its software is in use around the world at over 3000 sites. It is based on and inspired by the insights, work and values of Buckminster Fuller. I worked with Fuller from 1969 until his death in 1983, principally on the World Game. For a more detailed history of the World Game, up to 1987, see "The World Game at Twenty," The Futurist, Sept. 1987. (If anyone is really interested in this we could post that article here, or on the upcoming World Game Internet site that we will be announcing in the next couple of months.) For more up-to-date information, stay tuned. 2. WGI has a number of projects under way that might be interesting to you. In the software area there is Global Recall and its ongoing updates. Intended as an interactive global atlas, encyclopedia of world problems and problem solving laboratory it is a useful first draft of some of the capabilities that would be needed in any "world game." It is aimed at high school and college students (and anyone else interested in world resources, options, trends and human needs). The current version of Global Recall features the largest database of socio-economic and environmental statistical data available in an atlas format in the world. There is a simple econometric model hiding under the surface of a budgeting "game" in the Solutions Lab part. The best strategies will be evaluated by the UN Environmental Programme and a winner will be determined. The winner will get a cash prize that is to be spent on the implementation of the strategy, a round-the-world airplane ticket for their own education and the top 25 strategies will be published in a report that will be distributed to the world's leaders. There is a multimedia CD ROM version in the works. It will feature a much much much larger data base, many more data processing tools, and along with everything else, the Problem Solving Laboratory will be enhanced. There will be a number of levels of modeling capabilities and additional features that will make it a more powerful tool for recognizing, defining and solving global problems and local problems in a global context. It will be closer to our vision of what the World Game should be and can be. 3. There is a network version of the World Game in the works. The first version will use some of the huge database of the world's vital statistics that we have been building for the last 20 years, some of Global Recall's features and some aspects of the interactive global simulation at the heart of the World Game Workshop. If anyone is interested in working on this with us - please let me know. 4. There are more things that WGI is involved in - from collaborative projects with inner city neighborhoods where we develop an atlas of local resources and problems so residents can better recognize and solve the problems they are confronted with, to giant maps that are painted on grade school playgrounds that provide teachers and students with a global perspective, to high school, college and corporate programs on global resources, the environment, cultural diversity and a few other topics.... If you want any details on these efforts, or would like to be a member and receive our newsletter, write. 5. For those of you really interested in the history, evolution and ad nauseam details, here's some of the sources : (* available from WGI) World Game related publications: For those interested in a history of the World Game, up to 1987, read "The World Game at Twenty," The Futurist, Sept. 1987.* For other background information, see the books Energy, Earth and Everyone, Straight Arrow Books/Simon & Schuster, 1975. Environmental Design Science Primer, (with H. Brown & R. Cook), Advocate Press/Department of Health, Education and Welfare, Division of Environmental Education, 1975. Ho-Ping: Food for Everyone, Anchor Press/Doubleday, 1979.* Energy, Earth and Everyone, Anchor Press/Doubleday, 1980. and Articles "World Game Report," New York Studio School, New York, 1969. "World Game Report II," Southern Illinois University, 1970. "World Game Report III," Energy Inventory, Southern Illinois University, 1971. "World Game Packet," an Inventory of World Resources, Human Trends and Needs, Document One, The World Game, World Resources Inventory, Southern Illinois University, 1971. "World Game for Educators," Illinois Education Magazine, 1971. "Energy Sources," CoEvolution Quarterly, Spring, 1975. "World Food System Data Sheet," World Resource Inventory, 1979. "World Energy Data Sheet," World Game, 1980. "Games-Interactive Learning Environments," EMD, New Haven, CT, 1978, revised, 1987.* "Design Science," Spectrum, Ohio State University, 1981. "The Long Ranger," The Futurist, Nov. 1983. "Planning Diseases," The Futurist, Sept. 1984.* "What Does Peace Mean?" World Game Institute, 1987.* "A New World Map for a New World Order" World Game Institute, 1991.* "Doing the Right Things," World Game Institute, 1991.* "What the World Wants," Op-Ed, Philadelphia Inquirer, 1992.* "Increasing Humanity: The Globalization of Citizenship," World Game Review, 1994. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 06:56:46 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: World Game Institute Organization: Drexel University Subject: Quotes for Bucky's 100th Request for Quotes/Passages/Contacts of R. Buckminster Fuller World Game Institute, a Philadelphia-based non-profit global education and research organization conceived by R. Buckminster Fuller is planning a special public program and limited issue monograph honoring Fuller's Centennial year. As part of this, we are culling Fuller's ideas, and writings on a variety of issues that we feel are still relevant to present day issues. We are looking for your favorite quotes, poems or passages from Fuller's writings on the following topics: architecture, urban planning, housing, education, the environment, international peace and security, design, cartography. We are also looking for your suggestions of possible people to work with on this endeavor. Please send your contributions by February 28, 1995 to Gianna Tripodi, World Game Institute, 3215 Race Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104-2597. E-mail: xtm00002@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu All contributors will receive a copy of Fuller's dymaxion map projection which folds up into an icosahedron. We will also credit your contribution in all event documents and in our limited issue monograph. ****** The following is a detailed description of this R. Buckminster Fuller Centennial Celebration. CONCEPT PAPER R. Buckminster Fuller Centennial Celebration Summary: R. Buckminster Fuller, the world renowned architect, philosopher and visionary, was born in 1895 on the threshold of the 20th century. We are now poised on the threshold of the 21st century. Fuller witnessed and participated in epochal changes. The electron was discovered the year he was born. He was 8 years old when the first automobile appeared in his home town. He saw the development and proliferation of the radio, phonograph, motion picture, airplane, computer, video, jumbo jet, satellite, and a host of other technological, economic and environmental developments. Fuller himself made numerous contributions to some of the above mentioned fields. World Game Institute (WGI) is a 22 year old, non-profit, global education and research organization conceived by R. Buckminister Fuller. An official NGO of the United Nations, WGI is internationally recognized as a developer of innovative global simulation activities and multi-media software programs. The Institute is seeking funding to hold a meeting and to document the visionary insights of some of the world's top thinkers in honor of Fuller's 100th Birthday in 1995. This R. Buckminster Fuller Centennial Celebration will educate new generations about Fuller's revolutionary and timely ideas, deepen and further the experiences of those generations who met or were inspired by Fuller, and create a millennium piece transcribing the ideas and strategies of those present that will help chart a course for the world as we emerge into the 21st century. Rationale: Throughout his lifetime, Fuller introduced what many people thought at the time were futuristic ideas in the fields of architecture, cartography, design, mathematics, the environment, international peace and security, education, engineering and economic development. Many of Fuller's theories predate and laid the foundations of the ecological and globally-based environmental and economic development activities that are so common and important today. Fuller's ideas and writings, though some decades old, are still relevant today - perhaps even more so as global problems have escalated and the world has changed so radically due to the process of globalization. Accused of being a century to half a century ahead of his time, the world has caught up with this visionary. Fuller's centennial year marks the ideal time to both honor his great achievements and to connect them to present day theories and solutions to the global problems facing humanity. Program Description: WGI's R. Buckminster Fuller Centennial Celebration will be held in the late fall of 1995 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania - where Fuller spent the latter part of his life. The event will be captured for posterity in a number of ways, including video for release on cable or broadcast television channels and as a written document which will become a book. WGI proposes to convene leading scholars, philosophers and activists from around the world who are known for their ideas and work in one of the numerous fields in which Fuller made significant contributions including: architecture, urban planning, housing, education, the environment, international peace and security, design, cartography, etc. Our aim is to invite people who knew, worked with or were influenced by Fuller to participate in a public program that will elicit their observations on Fuller's views and on aspects of his forward thinking designs and principles. Each of these experts will be asked to give thoughtful commentary on a short quote, poem or passage by Fuller that relates to their particular area of expertise. For example, we will invite former U.S. President Jimmy Carter to comment on Fuller's theories and solutions to the global housing problem while Lester Brown would be asked to speak to Fuller's theories on the global environment. The R. Buckminster Fuller Centennial Celebration will be open to the public. Participating scholars' comments will be taped for broadcast and all will be invited to edit transcripts which will result in a limited issues monograph and possible book. This monograph/book will not be a commemorative document honoring Fuller's ideas, but an action plan for the future of the planet. The R. Buckminster Fuller Centennial Celebration will educate new generations about Fuller's revolutionary and timely ideas, deepen and further the experiences of those generations who met or were inspired by Fuller, and create a millennium piece transcribing the ideas and strategies of those present that will help chart a course for the world as we emerge into the 21st century. Project Goals: To honor the revolutionary ideas and visions of R. Buckminster Fuller and demonstrate their relevance to present day issues, trends and problems; To hold this public program in Philadelphia - where Fuller spent the later part of his life - and thus educate young and old Philadelphians about one of their city's most accomplished citizens; To educate a mass global audience about the ideas and visions of Fuller on diverse and multiple topics and then expose them to the ideas and thoughts of current leaders on these topics; To provide Philadelphia and world citizens with an inspiring and positive example and role model of what one individual can do to help solve the problems facing the world; and To provide world citizens with the information and the perspective that they need about critical global issues, problems and options and empower them to make changes in their communities and globally. Background of World Game Institute's Association with R. Buckminster Fuller: The concept of the World Game, or "world peace game", was conceived by Fuller as a creative problem solving tool. According to Fuller, the goal of the World Game is to "make the world work for 100% of humanity in the shortest possible time, through spontaneous cooperation, and without ecological offense or the disadvantage of anyone." Fuller's most widely noted accomplishment was his design of the geodesic dome. He originally intended the World Game to be housed in the 250-foot diameter geodesic dome pavilion erected for the United States' exhibit at the 1967 EXPO in Montreal. Within this dome, a huge map of the world would be connected to a giant computer that stored an extensive inventory of world resources, needs and problems. These tools would serve as the game board and pieces for a "great logistics game" or "peace game" that would be played in the dome by world leaders, researchers, students and the general public. In contrast to war games which are based on the need to control scarce resources and to defeat the enemy, the World Game was based on assumptions of potential abundance, the possibility of solutions where everyone wins, and "enemies" that consisted of such conditions as starvation, drought, and illiteracy - not other countries or people. While the revolutionary structure won for Fuller almost every architecture award around and brought him to the cover of Time magazine and international acclaim - its purpose to house the World Game concept was rejected by the United States Information Agency as too expensive and not appropriate for EXPO '67. For the past twenty-five years, Medard Gabel, a former student and colleague of Fuller's, has been developing and furthering the idea of the World Game. Gabel worked with Buckminster Fuller on this concept from 1969 until Fuller's death in 1983. Since that time he conceived and founded a non-profit global education and research organization called the World Game Institute (WGI). Over the past decade, WGI has engaged more than 100,000 people from 48 U.S. states and 20 countries in the World Game(R) Workshop - an evolution of Fuller's "peace game." The mission of the World Game Institute is "to supply the perspective and information needed to solve the critical problems facing global society as we enter the twenty-first century." WGI has developed a wide range of educational tools, computer software programs, classroom resource materials, and publications that fulfill this mission. These products are available in a variety of forms, ranging in levels of complexity, for elementary, junior high and high schools, universities, researchers, and corporate and government policy makers around the world. All of these products and programs have been created to help individuals and groups exercise their privileges and responsibilities as informed global citizens. WGI programs illustrate patterns of global interrelatedness and help the individual users recognize, define, and solve global and local problems in a global context. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 08:43:34 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: protein Markus De Shon (ph297md@PRISM.GATECH.EDU) wrote: > I'm surprised to learn of Bucky's attitude toward the vegetarian/meat-eating > discussion. It sounds to me like he's doing an ad hoc justification. Perhaps most "reasons" are simply ad hoc justifications. I think Bucky saw that he could quickly cook and eat more steak, than a filling vegetarian meal. I'd concur. It takes a long time to prepare and consume my vegetarian diet. To fry a steak and eat some jello is a much quicker proposition (more calories per unit time invested). [cf. Elias Tabello's quote from Cosmic Fishing in an earlier post.] Also, since we have such great reserves of energy (cosmic accounting), it seems to be irrelevant that eating steak is so inefficient to our environment. I think the actual quotes made by Fuller support that the former was his main point but that the latter may play some role too. So while my _values_ differ from Bucky's, I think his logic is valid. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 08:55:11 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: NEED HELP! asgan@orion.alaska.edu wrote: > Basically, I'm trying to design a geodome on a 3-d cad program, however > as of yet I cannot fing the necessary algorithims, mathmatical formula, or even > the angles needed. My local library has been unhelpful (the have books on > Fuller but nothing with the info I need.) If any one has the data or the title > of a book that would I'd greatly appreciate hearing about it. I'll give you the net resources that will get you started. See the FAQ for book lists. One important command is the "get" command. Listserv keeps archives of all postings to GEODESIC. To retrieve an old logfile send a one-line e-mail to listserv@ubvm.bitnet or listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu: get geodesic logYYMM where YY is the year and MM is the month (gosh I hope I didn't get it backward :) You will want the January 95 log to get the uuencoded version of Jay Bono's dome program. The August 94 log contains the last posted version of the FAQ. There is a FAQ available at switchboard.ftp.com in the /bucky directory. (Isn't working again - Dave are you listening?) The FAQ is also cited in the WWW pages. Also check out some WWW pages: http://vaxa.stevens-tech.edu:8000/crywalt/inventions/bucky.html http://www.lsi.usp.br/usp/rod/text/buckminster_fuller.html http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d Do Enjoy! -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 06:24:55 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Subject: Bucky Newsservice Info --- Fullerenes This information has been posted here in ages, so I thought the new people might like to know. This is were I got the info on that Conference I posted the other day. As you can see this message is dated from 1992, but the service still works as far as I can tell. Most postings are on references, but every now and again conference notes are released. The most interesting thing is the Bibliography which was gigantic last I looked and must be bigger now. Do Enjoy! -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ======================================================================= 134 Received: from DUVM by DUVM.OCS.DREXEL.EDU (Mailer R2.05) with BSMTP id 9104; Wed, 15 Apr 92 14:54:31 EDT Received: from noc2.dccs.upenn.edu by DUVM.OCS.DREXEL.EDU (IBM VM SMTP R1.2.2MX) with TCP; Wed, 15 Apr 92 14:54:30 EDT Received: from SOL1.LRSM.UPENN.EDU by noc2.dccs.upenn.edu id AA24391; Wed, 15 Apr 92 14:54:25 -0400 Return-Path: Received: by sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu id AA09387; Wed, 15 Apr 92 14:55:00 EST Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 14:55:00 EST From: buckret@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu (bucky outgoing mail) Posted-Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 14:55:00 EST Message-Id: <9204151955.AA09387@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu> To: FEARNLCJ@DUVM.OCS.DREXEL.EDU ***************************************************************** The bucky news service has two new features, BIBLIO and UPDATE. Welcome to bucky, a weekly list of the latest titles on C-60 and related fullerenes, fullerites, and molecular/solid state derivatives. The list is distributed to subscribers by electronic mail. You may subscribe, unsubscribe, and contribute or update entries to the list. Each week the latest 50 titles, or the last week's title list (whichever is larger) is electronically mailed to subscribers. Titles are listed in reverse order of submission, with date appended. You may also request Rick Smalley's annotated bibliography which is significantly larger (attribution back to 1500 BC). All electronic mail to the bucky service should be sent to ****** bucky@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu ***************** which is located on Internet in the United States. There are six services available, and you must send a separate e-mail message for each, using capital letters to specify the service on the first line of the message (not on the "Subject" line of the message): 1.) Presumably you have received this introduction by sending electronic mail to the above address with the text of the one-line message as follows (note the use of capitals): INTRO 2.) To subscribe to the weekly list (and receive an immediate copy), send mail to the above address with the text of the one-line message as follows: SUBSCRIBE You may also send the SUBSCRIBE message whenever you want to get a quick update of the title list. This will not cause you to receive multiple copies of the weekly mailing. 3.) To unsubscribe to the weekly list, send mail to the above address with the text of the one-line message as follows: UNSUBSCRIBE 4.) To submit an entry (title, author and institution, contact person for requesting more info or a hard copy), send mail to the above address using the word "SUBMISSION" alone on the first line, followed by up to 10 lines. The most useful contact address for readers will be an Internet or BITNET e-mail address, to which they can apply for copies. Your title will be automatically be given a submission number to which you may refer if you wish to update it. Below is a sample. Any submission with more than ten lines will be truncated by the system, but see the note below on spurious information. SUBMISSION Excitation of the the C-60 Breather Mode John Gaines and Friends, Wherever National Laboratory gaines@clone.wnl.gov 5.) To receive a current bucky bibliography (it's about 2600 lines), send mail to the above address with the text of the one-line message as follows: BIBLIO 6.) To update or change one of your previous submissions which has been accepted by a journal or has changed in some way, send mail to the above address with the text of the updated entry similar to the example below. The update will not occur immediately, and unlike the rest of the bucky service, you can update multiple titles in one mail message. N.B. You must include the original submission number (e.g. @#47). Example: UPDATE @#47 Excitation of the the C-60 Breather Mode John Gaines and Friends, Wherever National Laboratory Accepted by and will appear in Phys. Rev. B., July, 1991 Contact:gaines@clone.wnl.gov **************************************************************************** Your communications to this service should be sent to the above address. Your communications from the service will come from a different address. Note that bucky is not a Bulletin Board; the hope (perhaps naive) is that bucky's "keepers" will not have to spend inordinate amounts of time filtering spurious information. Also please remember that you will be sending mail to a PROGRAM, not a person, and the program will not understand much except as formatted above. It is also our expectation that subscribers will be forthcoming with their own new titles, and not just use bucky to get a jump on the competition. Once a mailing list is established, bucky will be available to rapidly disseminate other information, by request of any subscriber but at the discretion of the "keepers". Problems or questions should be addressed to mark@sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 10:26:46 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: POV-Ray scripts for Rendering Images of the basic Polyhedra I have attached POV-Ray scripts that will render photo-realistic images of the basic polyhedra. The filenames as they appear on my system are there for reference and to deliminate exactly where the files begin and end. Images generated from the shell script "povray -i $1.pov -o $1.tga +w200 +h150 +a" are available on Kirby's WWW site (they were converted to GIF for WWW access) or from ftp://ftp.teleport.com/pub/users/pdx4d/images/cf_polys.zip. You can render them yourself with POV-Ray. POV-Ray is available for all computers (binary distributions for Linux, DOS, Mac, and Amiga) from ftp://povray.org/pub/povray. POV-Ray is great, use it! Each script is (C) 1995 by Chris Fearnley and released under the terms of the GPL (GNU General Public License). I have not included a copy of the GPL here for space considerations. You may get a copy from ftp://prep.ai.mit.edu/pub/gnu/COPYING-2.0. This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version. This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU General Public License for more details. You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 675 Mass Ave, Cambridge, MA 02139, USA. ======================= RhombicDodeca-cube.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 11 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: RhombicDodeca of color: Red union { union { sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } // POV script for polyhedron: cube of color: Blue union { sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } rotate <40, 0, 0> } ======================= RhombicDodeca-cube2.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 11 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: RhombicDodeca of color: Red union { union { sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } // POV script for polyhedron: cube of color: Blue union { sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } rotate <0, 0, 0> } ======================= RhombicDodeca.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 11 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: RhombicDodeca of color: Red union { sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 2.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -2.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -2.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <-2.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <40, 0, 0> } ======================= Trunc-Octa.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: Trunc-Octa of color: Red union { sphere{<0.000000, 0.500000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.500000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -0.500000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.500000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, -0.500000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.500000, 1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, 0.500000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.500000, 1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.000000, -0.500000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -0.500000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.000000, 0.500000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.500000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, -0.500000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.500000, -1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, 0.500000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.500000, -1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.000000, -0.500000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.500000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.500000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -0.500000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 0.500000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.500000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -0.500000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.500000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.500000, 1.000000>, <0.500000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.500000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -0.500000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -0.500000, 1.000000>, <-0.500000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.500000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 0.500000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.500000>, <0.500000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.500000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.500000>, <-0.500000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.500000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.000000, -0.500000>, <1.000000, -0.500000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.500000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.500000>, <1.000000, 0.500000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.500000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, -0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.500000>, <-0.500000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.500000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.500000>, <0.500000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.500000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.000000, -0.500000>, <-1.000000, 0.500000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.500000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.500000>, <-1.000000, -0.500000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.500000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, -0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.500000, -1.000000>, <0.500000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.500000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -0.500000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -0.500000, -1.000000>, <-0.500000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.500000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 0.500000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.500000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.500000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -0.500000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.500000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.500000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.500000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, -0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -0.500000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.500000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, -0.500000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.500000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, 0.500000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.500000, 0.000000>, <0.500000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.500000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, -0.500000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.500000, 0.000000>, <-0.500000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <45, 0, 45> } ======================= cub-icosa.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: cube of color: Red union { sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } // POV script for polyhedron: icosa of color: Blue union { sphere{<0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } ======================= cub-tet.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.1 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: cube of color: Red union { sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } // POV script for polyhedron: tetra of color: Blue union { sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } // POV script for polyhedron: tetra of color: Blue union { sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} rotate <90, 0, 0> } ======================= cube.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: cube of color: Red union { sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } ======================= cuboctahedron.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: cuboctahedron of color: Red union { sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, 60, 0> } ======================= icosa.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: icosa of color: Red union { sphere{<0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, 10, 0> } ======================= icosa2.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: icosa of color: Red union { sphere{<0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-0.618000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.618000>, <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, -0.618000>, <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, <0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.618000, 0.000000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <-0.618000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -0.618000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, -0.618000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, -20, -10> } ======================= octa.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: octa of color: Red union { sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, 5, 0> } ======================= star-tet.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.1 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: tetra of color: Red union { sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <0, 0, 0> } // POV script for polyhedron: tetra of color: Red union { sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} rotate <90, 0, 0> } ======================= tet-oct.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: tetra of color: Red union { sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} // POV script for polyhedron: octa of color: Blue sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} sphere{<0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, 1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <0.000000, -1.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} cylinder { <0.000000, 0.000000, -1.000000>, <-1.000000, 0.000000, 0.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Blue} no_shadow} rotate <-60, 0, 30> } ======================= tetra.pov ============================ //POV-Ray script #include "colors.inc" #declare Cam_factor = 9 #declare Camera_X = 1 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Y = 0.5 * Cam_factor #declare Camera_Z = -0.3 * Cam_factor camera { location up <0, 1.0, 0> right <-1.33, 0, 0> direction <0, 0, 3> look_at <0, 0, 0> } light_source { color White } light_source { color White } // Background: background {color Gray70} // POV script for polyhedron: tetra of color: Red union { sphere{<-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} sphere{<1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>,0.07 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, -1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <1.000000, 1.000000, 1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} cylinder { <-1.000000, 1.000000, -1.000000>, <1.000000, -1.000000, -1.000000>, 0.06 pigment {Red} no_shadow} rotate <-30, 0, 30> } ========================= The End ==================================== -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 12:55:53 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: protein Robert L. Read wrote: >>I'm surprised to learn of Bucky's attitude toward the vegetarian/meat-eating >>discussion. It sounds to me like he's doing an ad hoc justification. > >Maybe, but I think this is being a little hard on Fuller. >After all, the man was born in 1895. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ That's probably it. That I am a vegetarian in '95 isn't all that surprising or "weird," but to be a vegetarian in pre-1960s America was to be pretty odd indeed. They did exist; they were weird and obscure. In pre-Victorian England there was Shelley & some of the other Romantic poets -- I should know this, but I think a few of the early American "famous" (Ben Franklin maybe? He was weird) were herbivores. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 22:40:58 -0500 Reply-To: JustWINK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: JustWINK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: NEED HELP! Gordon, A short answer- Try to find "GEODESIC MATH AND HOW TO USE IT." BY HUGH KENNER, U. OF CAL PRESS BERKELY, 1976 ISBN 0-520-02924-0 Wink ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 00:41:26 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: hanging geosphere? How about a full sphere geodesic that was suspended by cables which were fastened to nearby columns. I'm thinking that a sphere, filled with humans and their trappings, could be suspended by the same principle that keeps a heavy object, such as a bookshelf (see a Fuller Explanation by A.C Edmonsdson p266) rigidly suspended in space: restricting the 12 degrees of freedom. Do you think that this could be done? Has it been done or talked about? Survival of the fittest dwelling could be demonstrated by the time the ?Mississippi? floods again. If you designed the columns properly, I wonder if the structure could withstand an earthquake. Ottawa like most cities is plagued by urban sprawl, where beuatiful land is being converted into a asphalt and green-grass. A network of suspened homes could minimize the impact of such sprawl by keeping the land in a pristine condition--but for a few roads. \/\/\/\/\/Elias Tabello\/\/\/\/etabello@chat.carleton.ca\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Only as mind-over matterist, as philosopher, scientist, and informed technician impersonally and universally preoccupied is man infallible. -From No More Secondhand God by RBF ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 00:08:41 -0500 Reply-To: JustWINK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: JustWINK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Dymaxion Car and Dwelling Machine >Would you be kind enough to publicly speculate as to the >failure of the dwelling machine? Sure. Here are a few of the reasons often cited: *There existed no system to transport the containerized homes to the building sites. *Trade unions would not accommodate such a non-traditional concept, which would cut them out of work. *The overwhelming public reaction to the project brought forth greedy profit-mongers , and Bucky shut it down rather than see it prostituted. *Timid bankers would not invest in the necessary hard-tooling (the prototypes were made from short-life plaster dies, plywood jigs, etc.) What really happened? There may be some truth in all of these versions, but I would emphasize some different things. First of all, and some of you won't like hearing this -*THE DYMAXION HOUSE NEVER EXISTED*- Yes, there were pictures distributed by Beech Aircraft that made it look like there was such a thing, and people even walked around inside real objects that had been cosmetically fleshed out to appear as though they were houses. They were not. Two DDM's were built by Beech, but they could not even be called "prototypes." They were, in fact, proof-of-concept engineering test beds, meant to investigate the physical properties of the tension/compression systems and to explore techniques of assembly and disassembly, etc. Yes, they did include some of the anticipated systems, such as the radially compressed wedge-shaped floor panels that comprised in and out-flowing air ducts, the weathervaning central cap that induced internal airflow and so on. These machines would have been followed by prototypes addressing concerns of production and addressing more mundane qualities. Read through the old publicity material and you'll find references to the hardware systems integrated into the house. These were never meaningfully developed, and most were never even installed, much less optimized for production. Yes, Bucky designed many clever devices for the first two machines that were intended for the production version- the ovolving shelves, rotating closet, etc.- But these were very ad-hoc efforts. And, one should not be misled by the fact that one of the units was later retrofitted into a real "house" by the Wichita oilman- it was a far cry from the original idea and most of the innovative concepts were destroyed in the process. Discussions with the man who served as a crew chief when the units were put together painted an interesting picture. Bucky was going 90mph, often having totally redesigned a system before the previous one was prototyped, and not always keeping others informed. He left certain logistical aspects of assembly and fabrication to those working under him, and such problems were often solved by various crude methods in the field. By the time the project began to lose steam, Bucky's interests were beginning to move on to other, newer and more interesting subjects. Designers who live by real-world values know both the difficulty and value of resolving the creative design process and shipping the product; always a compromise and never up to the imagined possibilities. Bucky is frequently, and I believe rightly, compared to Leonardo da Vinci. What we forget is the reputation that Leonardo had while alive; he was known as a brilliant guy who almost never finished anything. Somewhat like Leonardo, Bucky was better at initiating things and inspiring others than he was at bringing real artifacts to the marketplace. In later years he seemed to accept this and gave great value to the conceptual content of his projects, stating that they would arrive in a real way when the time was right. Please do not take my ramblings as being overly critical. I was inspired by Bucky's work at an early age and have immense respect for the experience, vision and energetic output of this remarkable man. History will someday recognize the growing influence that he has had in many diverse areas. However, exposure to many who worked with him, and were involved in the projects he is known for, is leading me to a very different picture than that painted by his overly zealous worshippers. Great people inevitably seem to acquire such followers, and it is to Bucky's credit that he did not actively cultivate a massive entourage of zombies, laying flowers at his feet and buying him fleets of Rolls/Royces. Wink (Charles E. Peck) 316/264-5658 (email me if you're interested in the new 2001 book) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 09:09:04 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: hanging geosphere? X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Elias Tabello" at Jan 29, 95 00:41:26 am My suggestion would be a monumental exercise in engineering on the scale of the great pyramids or gothic cathedrals. It would be a 1/2 mile diameter tensegrity sphere suspended in the interior of the only conceivable free-span structure that could support it, a geodesic sphere with its equator (and observation platforms) at ground level. (In other words, the supporting struc- ture would be half above ground level and half below ground level.) Kiyoshi Kuromiya Forwarded message begins here: > > How about a full sphere geodesic that was suspended by cables which > were fastened to nearby columns. I'm thinking that a sphere, filled > with humans and their trappings, could be suspended by the same principle > that keeps a heavy object, such as a bookshelf (see a Fuller Explanation > by A.C Edmonsdson p266) rigidly suspended in space: restricting the 12 > degrees of freedom. > Do you think that this could be done? Has it been done or talked about? > > Survival of the fittest dwelling could be demonstrated by the time > the ?Mississippi? floods again. > > If you designed the columns properly, I wonder if the structure could > withstand an earthquake. > > Ottawa like most cities is plagued by urban sprawl, where beuatiful > land is being converted into a asphalt and green-grass. A network of > suspened homes could minimize the impact of such sprawl by keeping the > land in a pristine condition--but for a few roads. > > \/\/\/\/\/Elias Tabello\/\/\/\/etabello@chat.carleton.ca\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ > Only as mind-over matterist, > as philosopher, scientist, > and informed technician > impersonally and universally preoccupied > is man infallible. > -From No More Secondhand God by RBF > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 14:28:00 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "NEY,ADDI./PPE" Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN Subject: looking for earth magnetic field maps Hello All, Does anyone happen to know a data-base, ftp site, etc, where we could find the magnetic corrections tables of our globe of the last few years? thanks in advance Addie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 15:49:41 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: Manhattan dome (fwd) >>Robert L. Read writes: >> we surely are not advanced enough >> to do a tenth of the things that we are capable of--- >If we are 'capable' of it then we are advanced enough. This is just a quibble over language. We are also capable of not killing each other, yet we are not advanced enough to do so. Is that better? >> ---like building functioning mass transit system or >> relying on bicycles. >Believe it or not, humans have built 'functioning mass transit' >systems: Subway cars (40 kmh); 'Rapid' transit trains (80kmh); street >cars; buses etc... This is a pretty uncharitable interpretation of my words, although I suppose it was worth to make that hilarious joke. Houston doesn't have much of a funtioning mass transit system. I think demanding that a city of the size of Houston have one is not asking that much. >Elias Tabello-Carleton University-Email address: etabello@chat.carleton.ca -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 29 Jan 1995 18:51:31 LOCAL Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Urner Update: W3, FTP, Whole Systems Post Update from Kirby Urner (former subscriber, still lurking): Howdy GEODESIC folks. Posting through my newsreader. My "Synergetics on the Web" page now boots this newsgroup (for those with properly configured browsers) OR has an automatic Mail To:listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu for would-be subscribers to GEODESIC (who still have to type in the subscribe command). Synergetics polyhedra (JPG, GIF) by Chris Fearnley and Richard Hawkins, photos by Chris Rywalt, and one Quicktime movie (jitterbug transformation, 93K by Richard) are available via my ftp site: ftp.teleport.com /pub/users/pdx4d Working this evening on getting a preview gallery for TIFFs by Joe Moore. If you have web access, I encourage you to visit: http//www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html -------------------------------- Forward from wholesys-l where the desovereignization thread has continued from its roots in 'geodesic.' Rave Review: Kirby, you're wonderful! What else are you writing? Your story about the "near future" Sci Fi sounds good to me! You're right on target with both the distance (in time and route to get there) of most SCI FI, and of the bleakness of the mor proximate depictions. Who's writing anything better? Mariann Jelinek Richard C. Kraemer Professor of Business Graduate School of Business, College of William and Mary, Williamsburg, VA 23185 Post follows: ----------------------------------------------------- Brian Rauchfuss: >>What is needed for this is a better human being. Even if we discover a >>way to create a better human, we must leave it up to the individual, we can't >>impose our views on others without their consent. > Tim Temple replied: >Absolutely it must be left up the individual. This is in the realm of >personal mastery. What we (you and I) can do is to model, demonstrate and >teach personal mastery. The world changes one person at a time; of course >we start with ourselves (myself) and model what we want to world to become. >Easy to say, hard to do, and I don't see an effective alternative. > Kirby adds: And we can model, demonstrate and teach about artifacts. When civilization (a) invented the rudder, allowing better navigation control than hitherto, the outward rippling effect on civilizations (b) and (c) was enormous. Others spontaneously adopt what looks like a better, safer, easier, more effective way of doing what they already do. Personal mastery is very important, and can be amplified in meaning to include mastery of technology (tools), including language (which maps the spiritual dimensions), but if we're doing meditation all the time because our lives are over-stressed, it may be that an artifact (like an answering machine, like a dome retreat center in the back woods, like a better music system) would also be helpful. I'm not saying that running to the shopping center is the best fix for spiritual disquietude (the stereotype malaise of consumer culture, made worse by advertising). What I'm saying is that an excellent way to work for shared vision, and to get people coordinating around that vision, is to project it on the big (or little) screen, in the form of a dramatic production or storyboard. This is called "science fiction" and is very popular with TV audiences (Next Generation is 'top o the pops' on BBC 2) but has the drawback, these days, of being set so far in the future that we can never see "how do we get there from here?" They seem to not have money in The Federation, species get along pretty well, some awfully liberal ideas about relationships -- and very high living standards, what with replicators and all. But how did people get to that place? Despite the appeal, the 'fiction'componenet is way high, the 'science' (realism) way low. So.... what we need on television, IMHO, is science fiction that goes forward only about as far as The Waltons goes back (50 years or so). Most near-future SciFi already on TV is awfully dark (e.g. RoboCop) -- Blade Runner type stuff, which is very telling about our popular culture. I've also noticed a tendency for popular SciFi to hide out in the past (e.g. Quantum Leap) again avoiding the issue of trying to depict a real future. What this near-future Science Fiction will show, are working prototypes of artifacts. High tech dwelling units, of the types envisioned by Fuller, which have the aerospace look and feel, plus internal "control panel" aesthetics, giving their occupants "cockpit style" access to the internet, virtual reality, The Digital Age Library etc. But also other, more low tech alternatives. Downloader dish in the subtle background, with lots of getting-hands-dirty gardening and rural stuff in the foreground (The Waltons with a DBS dish so JohnBoy can download Emerson and Tolstoy -- and Fuller, another in that New England Transcendentalist Tradition). These dwelling machines may have brand name logos subtly displayed; the realism (science) will be very high, the fiction level appearing to decline, as we approach the projected future (this is called "phasing in a vision, making it real"). Viewers will think "hey, that looks real, and the technology is nothing we don't already have!" "Hey, I'd like to get one of those!" and "Hey, why don't I call Boeing?" USA OS, with its armies of unemployed defense contractors hungry for new civilian markets, will be ready this time. The World Livingry Service Industry will be born, and the Eagle, at last, will start flying straight.... I am waiting for the discovery of a new symbolic western frontier and I am waiting for the American Eagle to really spread its wings and straighten up and fly right from 'I am waiting' by Lawrence Ferlinghetti from A CONEY ISLAND OF THE MIND Kirby Urner ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? > Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:34:35 -0500 > From: stutz@rs6000.baldwinw.edu (Michael Stutz) > To: HARRY@fs0.uii.com, stutz@rs6000.baldwinw.edu > Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? > > >Get Over It. > >It's called _The_Food_Chain_. > >When a lion slaughters an antelope do we call that murder? > > Of course not -- non-human animals lack minds. They live in > no-time-at-all, and are not capable of murder. > > >Humans are omniverous. We need a variety of sustenance to > >satisfy our dietary needs. Sure a vegatarian can live without > >eating meat - but be totally healthy - not. > > Do you have any figures, or pointers to information I could followup > on? Unfortunately - no (however, I will look into it). I based my statement on history and human culture. Even our cave dwelling ancestors had a diet of plants and animals. My point being it is unnatural for humans to rely on plants alone. Although many types of plants can be a source of protein, it's not the same protein found in animal meat. > Since I have stopped eating animals, I have become very healthy > -- I've never been more energetic, etc. > > Let's be scientific about this. Is that the only change you made? It's possible that you were also consuming a lot of fat with your meat. And could it be that you changed your exercise routine about the same time. Or you stopped smoking. etc. I would like to take two humans (preferably twins) and allow one to consume a normal omnivorous diet and restrict the other to plant life only and see how it affects them. *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "A man's got to know his limitations" - Harry Calahan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 13:51:55 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rob Pollock Subject: Suspension Dome Bucky theorized a floating dome which uses temperature differentials to keep from bumping into the ground. The sphere was a mile diameter, I think. Does anyone else remember about this idea?~ ~ Yet, I'll bet a suspension dome will be easier to finance than a floating (in the air) city!~ ~ rob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:45:25 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Suzanne E Chaney Subject: Re: Moving beyond the Nations System? Text item: Text_1 >Kirby adds: >So.... what we need on television, IMHO, is science fiction that >goes forward only about as far as The Waltons goes back (50 years or >so). Most near-future SciFi already on TV is awfully dark (e.g. >RoboCop) >-- Blade Runner type stuff, which is very telling about our popular >culture. I've also noticed a tendency for popular SciFi to hide out >in the past (e.g. Quantum Leap) again avoiding the issue of trying to >depict a real future. I could be way off base here, but... didn't the Tech War TV series (written by William Shatner) have a lot of futuristic things like you are talking about? Suzanne @>--->--- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:44:32 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Manhattan dome Ted Campbell (beth@SELWAY.UMT.EDU) wrote: > I simply can't believe that inventinging things is going to solve all of > the worlds problems. Whether or not one chooses to get involved in > political game playing, one needs to address the fact that other people > are playing politics and inventing things is not going to change that fact. True enough: nothing will solve _ALL_ of the world's problems. In the thread on Utopia I asserted that to the best of my knowledge Bucky (and my own) vision of the way things will be when they are "best" is full of big world problems -- probably bigger than any faced before. This is the only "utopia" I can guarantee humanity, fortunately! > There are even more serious problems the mere political game playing. > People believe differently and live differently as a result of their > beliefs. How does Buckminster Fuller address the problem of a Jewish > homeland? Well, I can answer that: Fuller addresses it by saying that > anti-semitism is the result of "not enough to go around." He believes > that inventing things will stop the anti-semites from killing us. > Fuller is wrong. I see more substance to Fuller's views on these political issues. I see his views on God (which challenge Jew and Gentile) in the mix. I see his views on values and world game impinging on these issues. I see Fuller forging the tools of ethics and creative problem solving outside the political realm (yet in the "social" realm). Fuller emphasized the practical issues of how to solve the world's technical problems first, because they MUST come first. He did have the vision to begin to forge the tools to solve problems beyond the purely technical engineering issues. The complex of Fuller's philosophy is more intricate than you have acknowledged here. Of course, Fuller is wrong. The challenge is to find out where, why, when and how he was wrong :) -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 16:19:52 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: DYMAXION CAR The history of the Dymaxion Cars is given on pages 25-31 of 'Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller'. The crash is specifically mentioned on page 30. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 20:10:25 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: dymaxion car crash Suzanne E Chaney (Suzanne_E_Chaney@CCM.CH.INTEL.COM) wrote: > I am fairly new to this list and I am not familiar with Fuller's > inventions. But I have been following your fascinating postings and I > am not familiar with the terms Dymaxion Car and Dwelling Machine. Can > anyone tell me what they are, how they're made, and why they didn't > work for our current society? And Chris Fearnley responded: The D. car ran out of steam after a drunk politician killed the D. car driver in a severe crash. Of course, the papers simply printed freak car crashes and kills driver - never mentioning that it was the other cars fault and a drunk no less. Probably, there would have been some other reason to kill the project had the newspapers not done it in. Anyone remember where I read this? ------------------------------------------------ Hugh Kenner's book "Bucky: A guided tour" has a summary account of this crash. "A man chasing it, which happened all the time, flicked its tail on a ten-lane highway and rolled it over. The Dymaxion driver -- a racing drive -- was killed. A distinguished passenger, a British aviation hero, was hospitalized for weeks. King George V telephoned about him, and newsrooms buzzed. . . The man who caused it was a politican, with influence. By the time the British celebrity was fit to testify, thirty days had passed and the headlines had done their work." Walt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 20:50:27 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Manhattan dome Harry 'BadDog' Hammond wrote: >Why would you want to dome-up a city anyway? >Is this to escape the deteriorating environment of our planet? >"...to hell with the ozone - let's go inside..." The main immediate advantage I can see is protection from the weather, which is not exactly great in NYC but is perfectly natural... The thing about sealing the dome off from polluted conditions outside had never occured to me. . . The way I think about it, the dome would be more like a large, sophisticated awning than anything else. Yeah, I guess you could engineer the glass to screen out ultraviolet light and compensate for ozone deterioration, but isn't it ultraviolet light that disinfects sunlit surfaces & produces Vitamin D in human skin? More reasonable to allow full spectrum of solar radiation through, I think. >I see many potential uses for the geodesic dome (most of which I've >learned about since joining this list), but I strongly disagree with >the idea of spending one's life indoors. Look what happended in >Biosphere. Nobody talked about doming over the entire eastern seaboard -- just 3.14 square miles of an urban island. If those who get domed-over want to go outside, all they have to do is step outside. There are a sizable number of people who live mostly indoors anyway. And did something bad happen in Biosphere II? >"What doesn't kill you, will make you stronger" >What chance would a child raised in an enclosed environement have at >surviving later in life outside of this artificial womb. You may be thinking of John Travolta in "The Boy in the Plastic Bubble." (I know I am.) Again, the dome I have in mind is not exactly like an artifical womb. We'll do well to get the proper number of air turns much less create antiseptic conditions. With a constant temperate climate under the dome & never a killing frost we may get the opposite problem in fact -- with tropical viruses New Yorkers may indeed get the chance to see what kills them and what makes them stronger ;) >Maybe instead of trying to find a way to build a dome over a city, we >should direct our attention towards making sure we will never have to >dome over a city. Yep. Mebbe! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 30 Jan 1995 23:33:31 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Manhattan Dome >I see many potential uses for the geodesic dome (most of which I've >learned about since joining this list), but I strongly disagree with >the idea of spending one's life indoors. [...] >What chance would a child raised in an enclosed environement have at >surviving later in life outside of this artificial womb. IMHO, the distinction of being in/outdoors is one that may in time become irrelevent if life support is no longer an issue. Is the oxygen the child breathes while strolling through the woods part of an artificial womb? (BTW this is my main criticism of the new "punk" youth and their "do-it-yourself" ethic -- yes, do it yourself and publish your own punk 'zine, but who made the paper?) We're used to living in buildings, rectilinear structures for shelter from "the elements," but I think that somehow there could be a day where there no longer is an "out-of-doors" or an "in-doors" -- and that it would probably be artifacts like the geodesic dome that start to bring this about. I would also add the caveat that it's not likely us here on this list will be around to experience this day, but I think it may happen -- especially if humans grow to inhabit more of Universe than the surface of Spaceship Earth. I'm just open-minded dreamily speculating here, but does this make sense? I'm not arguing with ya, either -- I strongly disagree with spending one's life indoors too, if it's like an enclosed room, the kind of indoors we're used to. I'd think that these new "enclosed" environments would be considered less and less such (enclosed) and more and more "open," with tools for sensing non-human-sense-tunable wavelengths etc. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:06:43 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? Michael Stutz (stutz@RS6000.BALDWINW.EDU) wrote: > What did he have to say about food, especially eating meat? I don't > think he was a vegetarian; I seem to recall (intro to _Tetrascroll_) > something to the effect of "he ate steak and peas every day, this was > his only dinner." I just wonder if he ever said anything about killing > non-human animals. I believe he said that steak had more calories/nutrition per mouthful than vegetarian. The implication I was left with was that for expediencies sake, he needed to eat meat. But I also recall some allusions to being overweight too much ... maybe he ate too much steak :) I don't recall any comments on killing animals (he disapproved of killing people, in case you didn't know). > Michael "one acre of greens insteada pigs yields 20x more protien" Stutz Probably he would offer technological means to farm more Earth and not fret too much over the inefficiency. Nonetheless I personally avoid meat in my diet (well, only most of the time). So should I stop posting here :) -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 04:25:26 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Suspension Dome Rob Pollock (rob@DECISIONSYS.COM) wrote: > Bucky theorized a floating dome which uses temperature differentials to keep > from bumping into the ground. The sphere was a mile diameter, I think. Does > anyone else remember about this idea?~ You are bringing back memories of the first 2 years of this list - back in 1988 and '89 when under the auspices of GEODESIC's founder and first major contributor, Pat Salsbury, we discussed this concept at great length. I believe enthusiasm started dying away when we realized that financing the project was a bit beyond our means! Unfortunately the log files for that period were partially destroyed. I have some of them printed on illegiable green and white striped paper -- from back when I was in Binghamton and using "the Pod" regularly. Pat has peeked in here periodically since he left Buffalo (and the tutalage of Harold Cohen), maybe he is working hard at building up the finances for this stillborn floating city idea. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 01:52:09 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? >> >Humans are omniverous. We need a variety of sustenance to >> >satisfy our dietary needs. Sure a vegatarian can live without >> >eating meat - but be totally healthy - not. >> >> Do you have any figures, or pointers to information I could followup >> on? > >Unfortunately - no (however, I will look into it). >I based my statement on history and human culture. >Even our cave dwelling ancestors had a diet of plants and animals. Aren't these views Eurocentric? [or are they? I'm forgetting the Greek Pythagoreans] What about Hindus, Tibetan Buddhists, Taoists, Zen Buddhists? Their texts are very old, very ancient -- yes, a great many humans have successfully lived vegetarian over the expanse of recorded history. Are there any anthropologists out there -- wasn't it australanpithicenes (sp?) who were the first meat-eating of our ancestors, the first cave-dweller whose teeth etc allowed for meat-eating? There was something on the AP wire about 2 weeks ago about our first anscestors who ate meat. >My point being it is unnatural for humans to rely on plants alone. Right; my point being it is. >> Since I have stopped eating animals, I have become very healthy >> -- I've never been more energetic, etc. >Let's be scientific about this. Is that the only change you made? No, I stopped drinking cola and only drink tea instead. ;-) Seriously though, I'm not concerned in the slightest about my health. Let the meat industry scoff at vegetarians (and to be fair, "let the vegetable farmers rejoice"); what I'm interested in is whether or not the moral decision of nonviolence toward all sentient beings is a practical, natural and sensible way to live. I am interested in altruistic life management -- I want to know how Universe works, whether or not violence and killing are inevitable. The argument that you kill bacteria and countless other organisms with every breath doesn't hold for me -- because that is all unavoidable. I don't _have_ to eat meat -- again, I'd argue that I'm healthier this way. And if I'm wrong? Then I guess, like that old song, I'm the fly in the ointment. >From the rec.foods.veg faq: Here is another (from "Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine"): THE PROTEIN MYTH In the past, some people believed one could never get too much protein. In the early 1900's, Americans were told to eat well over 100 grams of protein a day. And as recently as the 1950's, health-conscious people were encouraged to boost their protein intake. The reality is that the average American takes in twice the amount of protein he or she needs. Excess protein has been linked with osteoporosis, kidney disease, calcium stones in the urinary tract, and some cancers. Despite all this, many people still worry about getting enough protein. The Building Blocks of Life: People build the proteins of their bodies from amino acids, which, in turn, come from the proteins they eat. Protein is abundant in nearly all of the foods people eat. A varied diet of beans, peas, lentils, grains, and vegetables contains all of the essential amino acids. Animal products are high in protein, but are undesirable because of their high fat and cholesterol content. Fat and cholesterol promote heart disease, cancer, and many other health problems. One can easily meet the body's protein requirements with plant foods. It used to be believed that various plant foods had to be eaten together to get their full protein value, but many nutrition authorities, including the American Dietetic Association, have determined that intentional combining is not necessary.1 As long as one's diet includes a variety of grains, legumes, and vegetables, protein needs are easily met. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:48:25 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond Subject: Re: Manhattan dome >> Why would you want to dome-up a city anyway? > > The main immediate advantage I can see is protection from the weather, > which is not exactly great in NYC but is perfectly natural... > > The thing about sealing the dome off from polluted > conditions outside had never occured to me. . . The way I think about > it, the dome would be more like a large, sophisticated awning than > anything else. Yeah, I guess you could engineer the glass to screen > out ultraviolet light and compensate for ozone deterioration, but isn't > it ultraviolet light that disinfects sunlit surfaces & produces Vitamin D > in human skin? More reasonable to allow full spectrum of solar radiation > through, I think. > I recently saw the program Earth 2. This woman on the show had a child that needed some special suit due to an infliction caused from a lack of immunities. You see this program takes place in the future when everybody lives indoors. >> I see many potential uses for the geodesic dome (most of which I've >> learned about since joining this list), but I strongly disagree with >> the idea of spending one's life indoors. Look what happended in >> Biosphere. > > Nobody talked about doming over the entire eastern seaboard -- > just 3.14 square miles of an urban island. If those who get domed-over > want to go outside, all they have to do is step outside. There are a sizable > number of people who live mostly indoors anyway. > > And did something bad happen in Biosphere II? Oh yeah - they lost a lot of weight - got sick - and probbably got on each others nerves. Micheal added: > ................We're used to living in buildings, rectilinear structures for > shelter from "the elements," but I think that somehow there could be > a day where there no longer is an "out-of-doors" or an "in-doors" -- and > that it would probably be artifacts like the geodesic dome that start to > bring this about. What about living outdoors and putting all the factories and land-fills and such inside domes where emissions could be recycled and/or reduced by a filtration process. I like being outdoors and treasure every moment of it. > I would also add the caveat that it's not likely us here on this > list will be around to experience this day, but I think it may happen -- > especially if humans grow to inhabit more of Universe than the surface of > Spaceship Earth. Hmmmmmm. I wonder if anyone has speculated on the use of domes for shelter on other planets that otherwise could not sustain life. *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "A man's got to know his limitations" - Harry Calahan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 16:53:47 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Manhattan Dome In-Reply-To: <199501310919.BAA08727@mail.netcom.com> from "Michael Stutz" at Jan 30, 95 11:33:31 pm Harry "BadDog" Hammond: > >the idea of spending one's life indoors. > [...] > >What chance would a child raised in an enclosed environement have at > >surviving later in life outside of this artificial womb. > >Maybe instead of trying to find a way to build a dome over a city, we > >should direct our attention towards making sure we will never have to > >dome over a city. Michael Stutz: > IMHO, the distinction of being in/outdoors is one that may in time become > irrelevent if life support is no longer an issue. Is the oxygen the child > breathes while strolling through the woods part of an artificial womb? > I think that somehow there could be a day > where there no longer is an "out-of-doors" or an "in-doors" -- and that it > would probably be artifacts like the geodesic dome that start to bring this > about. > I'd think that these new "enclosed" environments > would be considered less and less such (enclosed) and more and more "open," > with tools for sensing non-human-sense-tunable wavelengths etc. the ideal domehome would obviate the urge toward centralization with communication at bandwidths that excel "in-person", and with built-in life-services. perhaps the manhattan dome is an interesting idea that would become irrelevant as the necessary skills were assembled and synergetically found to reveal more efficient applications. we are all "indoors" in the sense that our brains are locked permanently (we hope) within the safe, dark confines of the skull. what we mean and enjoy by the "outdoors" is the sense-contact with the complex natural environment. i can conceive of mechanical interface that might very well exceed the efficiency and range of sensory interaction with the environment, but this is clearly a possibility that would involve radical transformation of self. an ideal world would have these options available to anyone that chose them. there would be other options including "primitive" living in a state-of-the-art fully-self-contained portable dome home of the conventional sense (bedroom, bathroom, park next to the lake, etc.). another option would be to live in a "utopia" city - social, dense population, mostly "indoor" life (but with such large spaces, access to full-spectrum light, proper air circulation, etc. that it wouldn't be strictly noticeable or relevant to many). we would never _have_ to dome over a city, but domed cities (and floating, suspended, airborne, etc.) would be available for people who wanted them, or who wanted to visit them. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com