From MAILER-DAEMON@netaxs.com Tue Oct 24 17:02:57 1995 Received: from UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu [128.205.2.1]) by access.netaxs.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) with SMTP id RAA00243 for ; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 17:02:57 -0400 Message-Id: <199510242102.RAA00243@access.netaxs.com> Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU by UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5427; Tue, 24 Oct 95 17:01:10 EDT Received: from UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@UBVM) by UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0545; Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:34:41 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 1995 16:34:06 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8b)" Subject: File: "GEODESIC LOG9502" To: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Status: RO ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:59:59 -0500 Reply-To: JustWINK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: JustWINK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Manhattan dome >Why would you want to dome-up a city anyway? Why would you want to stay under a shelter anyway? Why would you want to stay under a dome-shaped cushion of gravitationally-adhered atmosphere anyway? Why would you want to stick to a planetary surface anyway? Doming NY was some kind of example. Most of us are not too serious about it, but it did enable some very interesting comparisons and speculation. Wink Charles E. Peck ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 23:55:42 -0500 Reply-To: JustWINK Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: JustWINK Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: dymaxion car crash Some time ago, I was researching the dymaxion car, and ended up retracing it's ownership and so on ( an interesting story in itself). In the process, I contacted the Chicago coroner's office and tried to locate a copy of the coroner's inquest that was said to have vindicated the car. The document was unavailable, though I have talked to people who have seen it and confirm its content. I also talked to a few engineers who had written on the subject of rear-wheel steering (a subject of great debate in the context of this vehicle), one of whom had spoken briefly with Bucky. They all basically confirmed what Bucky said in his patent (placement of CofG critical) and the one said that Bucky had privately admitted that he would (at that later time) use RWS only at very low speeds for the agility that the car was famous for, using FWS at high speeds - After all, front wheel drive is now a mature technology, steering and all. Wink Charles E. Peck ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:59:38 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Cal Eastman Subject: Re: Bucky's attitudes about food? In-Reply-To: <199501312042.PAA21598@hela.INS.CWRU.Edu> life subsits on life. from the first dna molecule that "learned" to gather material from other molecules to build itself, life has used the material of other life for its own purpose. no one lives off inorganic material. i personally find teh plant/animal line to fine to actually draw. If it is "immoral" to take life to survive, then its AS immoral to take the life of teh potato, as the cow. Chris rush said he draws the line at animals that come to him when he calls.. cows yes, dogs no, cats sometimes. the jain of s india believe the universe runs finew without us, so non-interference is teh rule. The only eat fruit that has fallen, and grain that has wilted on teh stalk. These are teh truest "moral" eaters. HOwever i dont accept the dichotmy. We are nature, what we do CANNOT be outside of nature, ie unnatural. goatma buddha died when chokeing on a piece of bad pork. The middle path is just that, a striving to stay away from extremes, that pull one out of balance. most hindus eat meat. there is a wonderful sufi story, about a student, who hears from a woman about her guru, who lives in india, who eats only oranges. He went to his master and said , why master, if one can live off oranges, why do you eat meat? themaster replied that allah made a perfect universe, and in it , meat tastes good. he eats it because he likes it. is it unhealthy to eat too much meat? yes. (though augustus owsley,et al, eat only meat, they say vegetables are slave food..given by teh masters to animals and other workers) ows;ley says the only vegetable he eats is coffee. is he healthy? well he always looks a little pasty to me, but that could be his lifestyle - but he is very strong, muscular and energetic. but back to the point, is it unhealthy to eat any meat? no. Are there indidualks for who a vegitarian diet is healthier? yes. Does this mean that it is true foer everyone? no. Is it true oit takes more acreage to raise meat that veg? yes. But what of teh caloric payoff, vitamins, proteins, etc... it is not a simple acre of wheat to acre of beef comparison. and there is enough food to go around to feed even this sadly overpopulated planet. its politics that makes people starve, not what is eaten. bucky's greatest gift to us was the emphasis on an open mind. peace Boom shiva mahalinga nataraj :) (puffiness 4evah) On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Michael Stutz wrote: > >> >Humans are omniverous. We need a variety of sustenance to > >> >satisfy our dietary needs. Sure a vegatarian can live without > >> >eating meat - but be totally healthy - not. > >> > >> Do you have any figures, or pointers to information I could followup > >> on? > > > >Unfortunately - no (however, I will look into it). > >I based my statement on history and human culture. > >Even our cave dwelling ancestors had a diet of plants and animals. > Aren't these views Eurocentric? [or are they? I'm forgetting the > Greek Pythagoreans] What about Hindus, Tibetan Buddhists, Taoists, > Zen Buddhists? Their texts are very old, very ancient -- yes, a great > many humans have successfully lived vegetarian over the expanse of > recorded history. Are there any anthropologists out there -- wasn't > it australanpithicenes (sp?) who were the first meat-eating of our > ancestors, the first cave-dweller whose teeth etc allowed for > meat-eating? There was something on the AP wire about 2 weeks ago > about our first anscestors who ate meat. > > >My point being it is unnatural for humans to rely on plants alone. > Right; my point being it is. > > >> Since I have stopped eating animals, I have become very healthy > >> -- I've never been more energetic, etc. > >Let's be scientific about this. Is that the only change you made? > No, I stopped drinking cola and only drink tea instead. ;-) > Seriously though, I'm not concerned in the slightest about my health. > Let the meat industry scoff at vegetarians (and to be fair, "let the > vegetable farmers rejoice"); what I'm interested in is whether or not > the moral decision of nonviolence toward all sentient beings is a > practical, natural and sensible way to live. I am interested in > altruistic life management -- I want to know how Universe works, > whether or not violence and killing are inevitable. The argument that you > kill bacteria and countless other organisms with every breath doesn't > hold for me -- because that is all unavoidable. I don't _have_ to eat > meat -- again, I'd argue that I'm healthier this way. And if I'm > wrong? Then I guess, like that old song, I'm the fly in the ointment. > > > >From the rec.foods.veg faq: > > Here is another (from "Physicians Committee for Responsible > Medicine"): > > THE PROTEIN MYTH > > In the past, some people believed one could never get too much > protein. In the early 1900's, Americans were told to eat well > over 100 grams of protein a day. And as recently as the > 1950's, health-conscious people were encouraged to boost their > protein intake. The reality is that the average American > takes in twice the amount of protein he or she needs. Excess > protein has been linked with osteoporosis, kidney disease, > calcium stones in the urinary tract, and some cancers. Despite > all this, many people still worry about getting enough > protein. > > The Building Blocks of Life: > > People build the proteins of their bodies from amino acids, > which, in turn, come from the proteins they eat. Protein is > abundant in nearly all of the foods people eat. A varied diet > of beans, peas, lentils, grains, and vegetables contains all > of the essential amino acids. Animal products are high in > protein, but are undesirable because of their high fat and > cholesterol content. Fat and cholesterol promote heart > disease, cancer, and many other health problems. One can > easily meet the body's protein requirements with plant foods. > > It used to be believed that various plant foods had to be > eaten together to get their full protein value, but many > nutrition authorities, including the American Dietetic > Association, have determined that intentional combining is not > necessary.1 As long as one's diet includes a variety of > grains, legumes, and vegetables, protein needs are easily met. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:13:08 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Cal Eastman Subject: Re: Manhattan dome X-To: JustWINK In-Reply-To: <199502011101.GAA06440@hela.INS.CWRU.Edu> there is a recent sf book out called MANHATTAN TRANSFER. another is "CITY TALES" i belive by simak Boom shiva mahalinga nataraj :) (puffiness 4evah) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 01:36:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: World Game Institute Organization: Drexel University Subject: WGI Workshop Schedule Jan 20 WORLD GAME INSTITUTE WORKSHOPS SCHEDULE 1994-95-96 Schedule as of January 20 We invite you to visit an upcoming event. Contact us for more information. World Game Institute Email: xtm00002@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu 3215 Race Street Phone: (215) 387-0220 Philadelphia, PA 19104-2597 Fax: (215) 387-3009 * Environmental Workshop ** Diversity Workshop 1/18/95 Holdrum Middle School, Rivervale, NJ 1/23,24/95 Dwight-Englewood School, Englewood, NJ 1/26/95 Darien High School, Darien, CT 1/27/95 Linn Benton Comm. College, Albany, OR 1/27/95 Yale University, New Haven, CT 1/28/95 Lutheran Campus Ministries, Blacksburg, VA 2/8/95 SUNY-Plattsburgh, Plattsburgh, NY 2/10/95 AIA Minnesota, Duluth, MN 2/13/95 Motorola, Schaumburg, IL 2/15/95 Florida Community College, Jacksonville, FL** 2/16,17/95 Peddie School, Hightstown, NJ** 2/17/95 Roy F. Weston, Inc., West Chester, PA 3/3/95 Morristown Baird School, Morristown, NJ 3/4/95 Rennsalaer Polytechnic Inst., Troy, NY 3/7/95 Franklin Township School, Quakertown, NJ 3/8/95 Nutley Public Schools, Nutley, NJ 3/15/95 Great Lakes Invit. Conference, Flint, MI 3/21,22/95 Paramus HS, Paramus, NJ** 3/22,23/95 Motorola, Phukat, Thailand 3/24/95 Ranney School, Tinton Falls, NJ 3/27/95 Motorola, Singapore 3/28/95 Briarcliff Middle School, Mountain Lakes, NJ 3/30/95 Highland Elem. School, Midland Park, NJ 3/31-4/1 Colgate University, Hamilton, NY* 4/2/95 EcoJustice, Cornell U., Ithaca, NY* 4/7/95 Johnathan Dayton HS, Springfield, NJ 4/11/95 North Arlington HS, N. Arlington, NJ* 4/12/95 Valley Middle School, Oakland, NJ 4/13/95 Burlington Co. Inst. of Tech., W. Hampton, NJ** 4/19/95 Eco-Action, PennState Univ., State Coll., PA* 4/20/95 Morris Hills High School, Rockaway, NJ 4/20-22/95 Iowa Dept. of Education, Des Moines, IA* 4/24/95 Motorola, Schaumburg, IL 4/26/95 Southern Regional HS, Manahawkin, NJ 4/27/95 Museum of Disc. & Sci., Ft. Lauderdale, FL* 5/3/95 West Morris Central HS, Chester, NJ* 5/4/95 Columbia School, Berkeley Heights, NJ 5/4/95 Scottsdale Leadership, Scottsdale, AZ 5/8/95 Motorola, Germany 5/9/95 Hubbard Middle School, Plainfield, NJ 5/10/95 Maxson Middle School, Plainfield, NL 5/10/95 Passiac Co. Votech HS, Wayne, NJ 5/16/95 Plainfield High School, Plainfield, NJ** 5/18,19/95 Roxbury High School, Succasunna, NJ** 5/24/95 Montgomery High School, Skillman, NJ 5/25/95 Edison Intermediate School, Westfield, NJ 6/8/95 Columbia School, Berkeley Heights, NJ 6/12/95 Motorola, Schaumburg, IL 6/27/95 Youth Envir. Summit, Loveland, CO* 7/3/95 Motorola, Singapore 7/10/95 Motorola, Schaumburg, IL 8/13-15/95 Presby. Peacemaking Program, Hempstead, NY** 9/4/95 Motorola, Singapore 9/11/95 Motorola, Schaumburg, IL 10/9/95 Motorola, Schaumburg, IL 1/15/96 Fay School, Southborough, MA** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 02:16:33 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Market Reconnaissance Organization: iiNet Technologies Subject: Re: Manhattan dome In article , Ted Campbell says: >I simply can't believe that inventinging things is going to solve all of >the worlds problems. Whether or not one chooses to get involved in >political game playing, one needs to address the fact that other people >are playing politics and inventing things is not going to change that fact. > >There are even more serious problems the mere political game playing. >People believe differently and live differently as a result of their >beliefs. How does Buckminster Fuller address the problem of a Jewish >homeland? The floating sphere? :-) Well, I can answer that: Fuller addresses it by saying that >anti-semitism is the result of "not enough to go around." He believes >that inventing things will stop the anti-semites from killing us. Spend more time on the global network. Hard to kill someone with a computer. >Fuller is wrong. Wrong? I seem to remember quite at lot of Fuller writings on redirecting armament monies into more productive activities. We keep spending on guns bombs etc someone sure to get shot. How about a global non-government-aid-organisation that sets up internet nodes and access for countries without? Would be cheeper than building a wall along the Gaza strip? Just to keep on subject - a few well build geodesic structures for people to operate these computers in would be a good use for some energy as well. Yours in Utopia William Croft Perth Asutralia mktrecon@iinet.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:22:05 EDT Reply-To: rodrigo@lsi.usp.br Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rodrigo de Almeida Siqueira Subject: RE_Fuller_and_Utopia Hello ! > Renaissance took to the humanist (and ultimately classicist) belief that > architecture should reflect the ideal forms of the human body, which was > in turn a microcosmic reflection of the macrocosm. Fuller's tetrahedrons > reflect the greater scope/shape of Universe. Anyway, I'm rambling, but > this is the stuff upon which I'm ruminating. >(...) > while visual utopias are not in themselves utopian, but are rather > Ideal Cities which could, in turn, serve as the base for a utopian community. > If these definitions are to be accepted, then I believe Fuller's work > falls into the Ideal City scheme. "If you build it, they will come." > > - Marcia This reminds me the capital of Brazil: Brasilia. Brasilia is a planned city to be Ideal and political, in about 1950, planned by Oscar Niemeyer, a famous architect here. The city is located in he center of Brazil, where there was really nothing. Its architecture is based on a "Pilot Plan" (because it is simmilar to the plant of an airplane). The city is formed by two main axes: The body of an airplane (the main axe) and its wings, where in head of the airplane is located the building of the president and its ministeries and government. In the main axe (also the axe of symmetry) there is many very big planned constructions, everything made by the best architects they could find by the time the city was constructed. Around the axes are the Super Blocks. Each Super Block has its own school and it's own commerce street and usually four big buildings where people live. But usually people who live in one Super Block do not study in their own Super Block, because many Super Blocks bacame very specialized. The city has also "zones" (sectors): the sector of hotels, the sector of banks, of sport, one sector of each thing. All streets only have names like "Super block 403, W1" and so on.. Now, there are so many people around there, that appeared many totally non-planned small cities called "Satellite Cities" that orbitate the main Brasilia (the Pilot Plan). Usually what people says is that Brasilia was not made for human scale. Not for human beings, because things there are very huge. There difficult to cross the streets (everything planned to have few light signals for cars) and to walk there. The city is at the same time astonishing - wonderful and overwhelming. ------------ Rodrigo de Almeida Siqueira Webmaster at University of Sao Paulo, Brazil. e-mail: rodrigo@lsi.usp.br ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:47:07 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Neal Hilty Subject: Fwd: Forwarded message X-To: nerdosh@clovis.felton.ca.us ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- >From tcowder@gpu.com Thu Feb 2 07:37:53 1995 Received: from power.gpu.com ([148.108.1.3]) by mail.industry.net (8.6.9/8.6.8) with SMTP id HAA04610 for ; Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:37:14 -0500 Received: by power.gpu.com id AA04760 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for neal.e.hilty@mail.industry.net); Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:31:08 -0500 Message-Id: <199502021231.AA04760@power.gpu.com> Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-2); Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:31:08 -0500 Received: by power.gpu.com (Protected-side Proxy Mail Agent-1); Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:31:08 -0500 To: "neal.e.hilty" From: Tom Cowder Date: 2 Feb 95 7:30:33 EDT Subject: Forwarded message X-Lotus-Rtfattachment: Yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="-- alternate ----" X-Deliver-To: neal.e.hilty This is the preamble of an RFC-1341 encoded, alternate message. ---- alternate ---- Content-Type: Text/Plain To: ietf @ isi.edu @ smtp cc: (bcc: Tom Cowder) From: eng3dbh @ hibbs.vcu.edu ("David B. Henschel") @ smtp Date: 02-01-95 08:32:14 PM Subject: Fortran language makes people upset. Forwarded message: >From mac4msi@cabell.vcu.edu Wed Feb 1 01:02:16 1995 Message-Id: <9502010602.AA07989@cabell.vcu.edu> Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) To: mac4wpo@cabell.vcu.edu (William P. O'Bryan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 95 1:02:12 EST From: Melanie S. Irvin Cc: eng3dbh X-Mailer: ELM-MIME [version 1.0 PL0] Forwarded message: >From mac4bww Tue Jan 31 21:22:59 1995 Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) To: mac4msi (Melanie S. Irvin) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 21:22:58 EST From: Brian W. Whitson X-Mailer: ELM-MIME [version 1.0 PL0] Forwarded message: >From ted4adp Tue Jan 31 16:43:42 1995 Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) To: mac4bww (Brian W. Whitson) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 95 16:43:39 EST From: Amy D. Petersek X-Mailer: ELM-MIME [version 1.0 PL0] Forwarded message: >From eng4dgb@hibbs.vcu.edu Thu Jan 26 13:57:24 1995 Message-Id: <9501261857.AA28794@hibbs.vcu.edu> Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) To: ted4adp Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 13:57:22 EST From: Donna G. Bryant X-Mailer: ELM-MIME [version 1.0 PL0] Forwarded message: >From rarust@hamlet.uncg.edu Thu Jan 26 12:40:24 1995 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 12:40:16 -0500 (EST) From: "Rachel A. Rust" X-Sender: rarust@hamlet To: Donna Bryant Cc: larson@turing.uncg.edu Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 25 Jan 1995 13:27:07 -0500 (EST) From: JAMES D. SPROUSE To: "Rachel A. Rust" Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 13:28:30 -0500 (EST) From: Heather A. Worthington To: jdsprous@hamlet.uncg.edu Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 00:07:40 -0500 (EST) From: Jill Renee Snyder To: heather worthington Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 21:32:40 -0500 (EST) From: Sonal Dinesh Thekdi To: Michael Adam Bolch Cc: Jill Renee Snyder Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 00:23:30 -0500 (EST) From: Lindsay Brooke Renner To: Sonal Dinesh Thekdi Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) HA HA HA! Now you have it! I HATE chain letters, don't you. However, this one is easier than most because you only have to forward it instead of making copies and sending them through the mail. Sorry anyways! ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 19 Jan 95 11:32:39 EST From: Jennifer Lea Rhawn To: lbr1@acpub.duke.edu Cc: dancap@aol.com Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) Hi! I'm out to plague your life now. I haven't sent a chain mail letter in ages, but I thought you might enjoy this! Jenn Rhawn According to Kristen Marie Anonick: > From kma3x Sun Nov 13 15:28:19 1994 > From: Kristen Marie Anonick > Message-Id: <199411132028.PAA45766@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU> > Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) > To: jmm3u@Virginia.EDU (Julia MacMillan) > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 94 15:28:18 EST > Cc: jlr7y (Jennifer Rhawn) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3.1 PL11] > > According to Teresa Lynn Divers: > >From daemon Mon Nov 7 15:12:49 1994 > From: Teresa Lynn Divers > Message-Id: <199411072012.PAA114431@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> > Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) > To: tdd2n@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Todd Douglas Divers) > Date: Mon, 7 Nov 94 15:12:47 EST > Cc: kma3x@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Kristen Marie Anonick), > bem2b@uva.pcmail.virginia.edu (Brooke McMinn), > mjallard@mail.vt.edu (Jonathan Mallard) > X-Mailer: PENELM [version 2.3.1 PL11] > > According to Theodora Lippitt Gongaware: > >From daemon Mon Nov 7 13:31:14 1994 > Resent-From: "Leslie D. Edwards" > Resent-Date: Mon, 7 Nov 94 12:53:06 EST > X-Mailer: UVa PCMail 1.7.1 > Resent-To: tld6h@fermi.clas.virginia.edu > Resent-Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 15:38:25 -0500 > Resent-From: djm5a@uva.pcmail.virginia.edu > Resent-Message-Id: <199411052038.PAA02014@uva.pcmail.Virginia.EDU> > X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.3 5/22/91) > Resent-To: lpe8y@uva.pcmail.virginia.edu > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 17:23:41 -0500 (EST) > From: Theodora Lippitt Gongaware > To: djm5a@virginia.edu > Subject: Forwarded mail.... (fwd) > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 00:00:18 -0400 (EDT) > From: Allyson Chari Goldstein > To: theodora@princeton.edu > Subject: Forwarded mail.... > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 18:08:11 -0500 > From: Elissa M. Blum > To: allysong@Princeton.EDU > > >>> > > >>> >> > >>> >> \\\|||/// \\\|||/// \\\|||/// > >>> >> . ======= . ======= . ======= > >>> >> / \| O O | / \| O O | / \| O O | > >>> >> \ / \v_'/ \ / \v_'/ \ / \v_'/ > >>> >> # _| |_ # _| |_ # _| |_ > >>> >> (#) ( ) (#) ( ) (#) ( ) > >>> >> #\//|* *|\\ #\//|* *|\\ #\//|* *|\\ > >>> >> #\/( * )/ #\/( * )/ #\/( * )/ > >>> >> # ===== # ===== # ===== > >>> >> # (\ /) # (\ /) # (\ /) > >>> >> # || || # || || # || || > >>> >> .#---'| |----. .#---'| |----. .#---'| |----. > >>> >> #----' -----' #----' -----' #----' -----' > >>> >> > >>> >> This message has been sent to you for good luck. The original > >>> >> is in New England. It has been sent around the world nine times. The > >>> >> luck has now been sent to you.You will receive good luck within four > >>> >> days of receiving this message - Provided you, in turn send it on. > >>> >> This is no joke. You will receive good luck in the mail. But no > >>> >> money. > >>> >> Send copies to people you think need good luck. Don't send money as > >>> >> fate has no price.Do not keep this message. This message must leave > >>> >> your hands in 96 hours. > >>> >> A United States Air Force Officer received 470,000 Dollars. > >>> >> Another Man received 40,000 Dollars and lost it because he broke the > >>> >> chain. > >>> >> Whereas in the Philippines, Gene Welch lost his wife 51 days after > >>> >> receiving the message. He failed to circulate the message. However, > >>> >> before his death, he received 7,555,000 dollars. > >>> >> Please send twenty copies and see what happen in four days. > >>> >> The chain comes from Venezuela and has written by Saul De Groda, > >>> >> A Missionary from South America. Since the copy must tour > >>> >> the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to friends and > >>> >> associates - After a few days you will get a surprise > >>> >> This is true, even if you are not superstitious. > >>> >> Do not the following: Constantine Dias received this chain in 1958. > >>> >> He asked his secretary to make twenty copies and send them out. A few > >>> >> days later he won a lottery of two million dollars. Carlos Daditt, an > >>> >> office employee, received the message and forgot that it had to leave his > >>> >> hands in 96 hours.He lost his job. > >>> >> Later, after finding that message again, He mailed twentycopies. A > >>> >> few days later he got a better job. Dalan Fairchild recege > >>> >> and, not believing - Threw the message away. Nine days later he died. > >>> >> In 1987, The message received by a young woman in California > >>> >> was very faded and barely readable. She promised herself that she > >>> >> would retype the message and send it on, But she t leave her hands within > >>>96 > >>> >>hours. She finally typed > >>> >> the letter as promised and got a new car. > >>> >> Good Luck but please remember: 20 copies of this message must leave > >>> >> your hands in 96 hours... 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aTAgXHJpMCBcc2wyNDAgXHNiMCBcc2EwIFxwYXIgXHBhcmQgXGxpMCBcZmkwIFxy aTAgXHNsMjQwIFxzYjAgXHNhMCBccGFyIFxwYXJkIFxsaTAgXGZpMCBccmkwIFxz bDI0MCBcc2IwIFxzYTAgXHBhciBccGFyZCBcbGkwIFxmaTAgXHJpMCBcc2wyNDAg XHNiMCBcc2EwIH0A ---- alternate ------ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 2 Feb 1995 20:33:44 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rick Levine Subject: FULLER WRITES RE: VEGETARIANISM (1938) I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THE VEGETARIANISM THREAD. R. Buckminster Fuller, the Buckyball-meister himself, speaks in his own printed words words that he so carefully used to say what he meant: FROM NINE CHAINS TO THE MOON: (For those who haven't read this magnificent early work (first printed in the 30's!), it ends in a fantastic dialog between an early radio hobbyist, named Jones, and the "materialized" X-ian. Jones, it seems, was experimenting with HYPER SHORT WAVE RADIO, and somehow his receiver, using his newly invented "sound and light sensitive cells, received more than was expected! FULLER WRITES... "On the evening of June 27, 1937 Jones was testing on his latest one tube set..." RICK LEVINE WRITES: And there is an explosion. And the X-ian appears. THE X-IAN IS: "from Planet 80XK23 in trapezoidal segment 727831 of the star layer of the expanding universe. 80XK23 is one of 100 planets of one of 40 billion star-groups in our spiral nebula..." *** *** AMONGST MANY THINGS, THE X-IAN SAYS... *** *** "... Being vegetarian, we have escaped the predatory, hoarding and property proclivities..." >From <> (1938) Chapter 41, "Jones and the X-ian" ^ ^^ Respectfully shared. ^ * * ^ * ^^ * * ^^^^^ * ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <<<< >>>>> <<<< M E R L Y N >>>>>>>>>>>> <<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<< of REDMOND, WA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <>Rick Levine 1995<> <><><><><><><><><><> <> .peace on you. <> <><><><><><><><><><> <> <><><><><><> <> <><><><><><><><><><> rlevine@halcyon.com <><><><><><><><><><> -------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 3 Feb 1995 05:46:16 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Subject: Re: NONDELIVERIES > So like all good democracies, our listserv environment seems to have > self-policed itself into some (unfortunately, probably only temporary) > heaven :) > Christopher J. Fearnley Congrats on doing list owner stuff without an active list owner. Glad to here the Cromer problem seems to be fixed, and DANNTES in Korea might be delivered from his listserv hell. Kirby Lurker ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 00:43:50 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dan Tremitiere Organization: Gateway Communications Inc. Subject: Re: Manhattan dome Just a practical question regarding the NYC dome-over: How, if this plan were carried out, would one keep snow off in the winter? Just wondering, Dan ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dan Tremitiere dantrem@gatecom.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "...I mean, even Cream of Wheat has lumps..." -Now You Know Merrily We Roll Along Music and Lyrics by Stephen Sondheim ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 15:20:07 -0500 Reply-To: TlineDomes Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: TlineDomes Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Free Dome Information As a leading manufacturer and designer of geodesic domes, we would be happy to provide information on the subject. We will monitor this area periodically and offer answers when we can. If you would like, please feel free to e-mail questions directly. If you would like some free information, please e-mail your name and address to us. We will be happy to send a full color brochure. Our detailed information is in a $12 color catalog package. Please feel free to contact us with any questions regarding dome living. We will be happy to do what we can. Timberline Geodesics TLineDomes@aol.com Timberline Geodesics Designing and manufacturing geodesic TLineDomes@aol.com domes since 1969. 1-800-DOME-HOME Explore The Great Indoors! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 20:46:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Marcia Blackburn Bertland Subject: Re: RE_Fuller_and_Utopia X-To: Rodrigo de Almeida Siqueira In-Reply-To: <199502021550.KAA07300@bingnfs1.cc.binghamton.edu> > > while visual utopias are not in themselves utopian, but are rather > > Ideal Cities which could, in turn, serve as the base for a utopian > community. > If these definitions are to be accepted, then I believe > Fuller's work > > falls into the Ideal City scheme. "If you build it, they will come." > > > > - Marcia > > This reminds me the capital of Brazil: Brasilia. > Brasilia is a planned city to be Ideal and political, in about 1950, planned > by Oscar Niemeyer, a famous architect here. > Its architecture is based on a "Pilot Plan" (because it is simmilar to the > plant of an airplane). > Around the axes are the Super Blocks. Each Super Block has its own school > and it's own commerce street and usually four big buildings where people > live. But usually people who live in one Super Block do not study in their > own Super Block, because many Super Blocks bacame very specialized. > > Usually what people says is that Brasilia was not made for human scale. > Not for human beings, because things there are very huge. There difficult > to cross the streets (everything planned to have few light signals for cars) > and to walk there. The city is at the same time astonishing - wonderful and > overwhelming. > > ------------ > Rodrigo de Almeida Siqueira > Webmaster at University of Sao Paulo, Brazil. > e-mail: rodrigo@lsi.usp.br Yes, I am familiar with the plan of Brasilia. It was heavily influenced by Le Corbusier's Ville Radieuse - another Ideal City plan. Corbu was a consultant on the plan. But I believe Fuller would have rejected such monumentality in architecture. Even though his Tetrahedron City or Manhattan Dome are of "monumental" size, they are of such size to fill a purpose based on science, not to enhance authority. Does anyone - like our resident bibliographer Joe Moore - have citations where Fuller talks about other architecture; not just the woes of vernacular architecture, but commentary on major buildings? - Marcia Blackburn Bertland bd81064@bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 4 Feb 1995 21:39:56 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Re: Manhattan dome Dan Tremiteiere wrote: >Just a practical question regarding the NYC dome-over: >How, if this plan were carried out, would one keep snow off in the winter? >Just wondering, >Dan The original proposal calls for the dome to have electrical wiring imbedded in it which would create enough heat to melt snow during storm. In terms of weight, ice is much more of a load, but of course snow would block sunlight. The snow and rain are supposed to accumulate "into a canal around the dome's lower rim from whence it would flow to great collection reservoirs." This rain collection is a great potential side-benefit of the dome, since according to New York State statistics, only 7% of New York City gets 'acceptable' water supply. I don't know how 'acceptable' is defined, but I know that under some circumstances the city gets water from 300 miles away, and rights to water has been a bone of contention between city and state for some time. Walt ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 07:04:07 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: GEODESIC Readership Statistics I culled this info from the "USENET Readership report for Jan 95" posted recently to news.lists. See that newsgroups for a fuller explanation of how the statistics were gathered &etc. \begin{quote} Brian Reid reid@pa.dec.com OVERALL SUMMARY: This Estimated Sample for entire net Sites: 453 260000 Fraction reporting: 0.17% 100% Users with accounts: 190664 47579000 Netreaders: 66123 16500000 Average readers per site: 146 Percent of users who are netreaders: 34.68% Average traffic per day (megabytes): 242.204 Average traffic per day (messages): 84719 Traffic measurement interval: last 28 days Readership measurement interval: last 75 days Sites used to measure propagation: 453 [...] This is the full set of data from the USENET readership report for Jan 95. Explanations of the figures are in a companion posting. +-- Estimated total number of people who read the group, worldwide. | +-- Actual number of readers in sampled population | | +-- Propagation: how many sites receive this group at all | | | +-- Recent traffic (messages per month) | | | | +-- Recent traffic (megabytes per month) | | | | | +-- Crossposting percentage | | | | | | +-- Cost ratio: $US/month/rdr | | | | | | | +-- Share: % of newsrders | | | | | | | | who read this group. V V V V V V V V 11300000 6100 92% 20 0.3 21% 0.00 9.2% news.announce.newuser 4 430000 2168 88% 1872 0.5 99% 0.00 3.3% news.answers 38 180000 1027 76% 115 0.4 4% 0.00 1.6% comp.os.linux.announc 1376 28000 290 42% 7 0.1 14% 0.00 0.4% comp.os.linux.answers 2579 7900 91 38% 292 0.9 0% 0.05 0.1% bit.listserv.geodesic 3180 1400 67 9% 120 0.0 87% 0.00 0.1% clari.news.education. \end{quote} I hope this helps satisfies everyones curiosity! -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 5 Feb 1995 13:28:37 LOCAL Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kirby Urner Organization: 4D Solutions Subject: Re: Homelands I've lurked discussions of Fuller vis-a-vis tribal/cultural homelands question. A sweep of my mental archives pulls up the following: 1. proposals to repatriate museaum artifacts to sites closer to their origins, e.g. recreate ancient Greece using artifacts in the British museum. Similar to indigenous North American efforts to get stuff back from the Smithsonian. 2. general sense that the nation-state model was on the way out. But that doesn't gut the notion of focal points for cultural traditions (e.g. as per #1). History will not erase itself, nor should we wish it to. My own addition: What I like about the corporate model is that huge estates. physical plant, and resources, and high living standards for many, alongwith a "corporate culture" including in-house language, governance, flag-like logos and other "sovereign" symbols, go with a topology that is at once global, but not continuous in the nation-state sense. Corporations interpenetrate, can be blocks apart, and not war over turf. I think nations can keep their "look and feel", and ties to certain geographies, but without necessarily policing continuous boarders. I dream, I know, but a good one I think. Kirby Urner ------------------------------------------------ Kirby Urner & Dawn Wicca "All realities are virtual" -- KU Portland (PDX), Oregon pdx4d@teleport.com Web: Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Critical Path Anyone out there remember when _Critical Path_ came out back in '81? I started reading it this weekend and am curious as to what the initial reactions were when the book came out. And as to people's opinions on this "design science revolution" that was supposed to begin six years ago; apparently it was my post-Moon-lander Generation X that was to "command and execute" this revolution. One thing he said was that the vcr would be the new form of interactive education; I'd say that he was off a little, that the net is doing *right now* exactly what he said videotapes would do. This is really a separate thread altogether, but -- Also anyone have any comments on his opposite-of-Darwin theories of evolution? I find it fascinating and worth exploration, but came across (on page eight, no less) what was to me the most "far-out" thing of his that I read: "We can comprehend how South Sea-atoll, lagoon frolicking male and female human swimmers gradually inbred pairs of underwater swimmers who held their breath in their lungs for ever-longer periods, and after many inbreedings of largest lungers and as many outbreedings of general adaptability organic equipment, the progency evolved into poroises and later into whales." Taking this literally is to me more far-out than his theories that DNA-RNA was 'landed' on the planet (which I could see). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:38:32 EST Reply-To: dkap@vax.ftp.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "A Page in the Life of ..." Subject: Manhattan Dome In-Reply-To: "Harry 'BadDog' Hammond"'s message of Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:44:09 EST <199501310019.TAA23696@cs.brandeis.edu> Caveat, I am behind in my mail, so, if anyone else has said the same, mei culpa ... Why would you want to dome-up a city anyway? Is this to escape the deteriorating environment of our planet? "...to hell with the ozone - let's go inside..." The only reason I can see to dome over Manhattan would be to protect the rest of the world from _the_sewer_that_never_sleeps_. Umm, snow, sleet, hail, rain and other precipitation comming in, and some way to perhaps filter or at least cut down on the exhume of human living (heat and CO2 are the inescapable ones ...) I see many potential uses for the geodesic dome (most of which I've learned about since joining this list), but I strongly disagree with the idea of spending one's life indoors. Look what happended in Biosphere. Not "indoors" (and comparing it to biosphere is a waste ... the model they had threw just about everything into an area smaller than even a few of them are willing to exist within, and then only throwing in enough CO2 generators for a few of the indigents? And only 7 people? That will make things go stale quite fast.) but sheltered. One can leave at will, and one must abandon one's major polutants at the door (hopefully). And a second reason. Space. The problem of designing a massively tall building is the support of it and how not to let it be blown over in the wind. Support now can partially come from the underside of the dome, and, well the wind (if there is any) would be a constant rather than a variable. Of course this might also increase the street sleepers, due to the more hospitible enviornment, but it also would make a large number of jobs where people most complain and are most willing to help. Their homes, their "hood". "What doesn't kill you, will make you stronger" Why do you think it will kill you? It might, if nothing else, make us weaker, due to the lessening of fighting with the elements. And it might even help the elements to begin to recover ... think of the forced srubbing of the air/water that would be recycled through the dome? If done correctly, we would be taking a chunk of poisons out of the air for each city so covered. What chance would a child raised in an enclosed environement have at surviving later in life outside of this artificial womb. Again, I disagree that it would be entirely "closed" mostly because business doesn't work that way. It would just be a city with the equivelant of all the buildings interconnected. Maybe instead of trying to find a way to build a dome over a city, we should direct our attention towards making sure we will never have to dome over a city. Again, "have to" is based on all sorts of factors. Cubic is cheaper than flat space. Realestate is the one comodity that we just _can't_ make more of on our planet's survace without pushing some things to their limits. Instead of letting a city (say ottawa) begin to sprall, use that outside land for grazing, build ottawa into a volume instead of a surface, and refrain from cutting down that much more of the Rain Forests. Save us from mining more into the grounds and use the outer skin for power generation (a whole bunch of solar/wind driven (or perhaps even thermic, due to the waste heat of the inhabitants) energy generators on a large section of acerage that just didn't exist before. Don't just limit it, look at the applications and ramafications of the space and functions. Dave K. -- I will not instigate revolution - Bart Simpson punishment line ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 19:58:56 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY'S CITY PROJECTS BUCKMINSTER FULLER AND CITIES DATE TITLE OF ARTICLE OR BOOK SOURCE PAGES PROJECT 01-01-68 "City of the Future" Playboy 166-168 TET CITY 01-01-68 "Why Not Roofs Over Our Cities?" Think mag 008-011 NYC DOME 11-28-68 Study of Prototype Floating Community RBFuller _______ TRITON 12-31-68 "Smokeless, Noiseless, Trafficless City" N.Y.Times ___?___ NYC DOME 02-01-69 "Buckminster Fuller's Floating City" Futurist ___?___ TET CITY 00-00-70 00-00-71 01-01-72 "The World of Buckminster Fuller" Arch.Forum 089 HARLEM 01-01-72 "The World of Buckminster Fuller" Arch.Forum 090 OLD MAN 01-01-72 "The World of Buckminster Fuller" Arch.Forum 091 TORONTO 01-01-72 "The World of Buckminster Fuller" Arch.Forum 092-93 TET CITY 01-01-72 "The World of Buckminster Fuller" Arch.Forum 094-95 TRITON 05-14-72 "East St.Louis: Urban Bankruptcy" N.Y.Times ___?___ OLD MAN 12-19-72 "Floating Cities" World mag ___?___ TET CITY 12-27-72 Old Man River:An Environmental Domed City RBFuller _______ OLD MAN 01-02-73 "Old Man River" World mag ___?___ OLD MAN 04-01-73 "Buckminster Fuller on Cities" American Way _?__ CITIES 06-01-73 Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller Marks/RBF 231 TRITON 06-01-73 Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller Marks/RBF 232-233 TET CITY 06-01-73 Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller Marks/RBF 169,234 NYC DOME 06-01-73 Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller Marks/RBF 235 CLOUD 9 06-01-74 Buckminster Fuller at Home in the Universe Hatch 230-231 NYC DOME 06-01-74 Buckminster Fuller at Home in the Universe Hatch 232-233 TET CITY 06-01-74 Buckminster Fuller at Home in the Universe Hatch 233 TRITON 06-20-75 "Not Too Distant Cities in Gulf Seen" States-Item __?__ TET CITY 08-01-75 "Men Will Live in Sea Cities,Aquatect Says"State Times _?__ TET CITY 00-00-76 00-00-77 00-00-78 10-01-79 "Old Man River" Dichotomy ___?___ OLD MAN 04-05-80 "Tenting the World" Sci.News ___?___ DOME 04-01-81 Critical Path RBFuller 315-323 OLD MAN 04-01-81 Critical Path RBFuller 332-335 TRITON 04-01-81 Critical Path RBFuller 336-337 CLOUD 9 00-00-82 00-00-83 00-00-84 00-00-85 00-00-86 00-00-87 11-01-88 "Water Works" Pop.Sci. 074-075 OCEAN 00-00-89 06-01-90 Buckminster Fuller Pawley 049-052 NYC DOME 06-01-90 Buckminster Fuller Pawley 155-157 CLOUD 9 06-01-90 Buckminster Fuller Pawley 156-158 HARLEM 06-01-90 Buckminster Fuller Pawley 157-159 TET CITY 06-01-90 Buckminster Fuller Pawley 159-161 TRITON 06-01-90 Buckminster Fuller Pawley 162-164 OLD MAN 07-01-91 "Emerald City" Pop.Sci. 020 TET CITY 03-01-92 "City in the Sea" Pop.Sci. ___?___ SEA DOME 09-01-93 "Ocean City" Pop.Sci. 015 SEA DOME -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 07:53:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Hanging Storage Shelf Unit Michael Stutz (stutz@RS6000.BALDWINW.EDU) wrote: > This post relates to Fuller's last patent (US Patent 4,377,114) -- for a > "Hanging Storage Shelf Unit." (yeeks -- can you tell I've been reading > patents all day?) > Has anyone ever seen one of these, or know of a place that sells/manufactures > them? I'm interested in them but I'd rather not build it myself if there > are some already out there. I saw one at the Bard College exhibit back in 1990. It's pretty neat and with the omnidirectional wires stabilizing it, it seemed sturdy though gossamer. Anyway the exhibit either moved or went into mothballs. I haven't heard of any manufacturers. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:01:15 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: The DS Revolution and the "final exam" (Was: Re: Critical Path) Michael Stutz (stutz@RS6000.BALDWINW.EDU) wrote: > Anyone out there remember when _Critical Path_ came out back in '81? > I started reading it this weekend and am curious as to what the > initial reactions were when the book came out. And as to people's > opinions on this "design science revolution" that was supposed to > begin six years ago; apparently it was my post-Moon-lander Generation > X that was to "command and execute" this revolution. One thing he > said was that the vcr would be the new form of interactive education; > I'd say that he was off a little, that the net is doing *right now* > exactly what he said videotapes would do. The design science revolution began as scheduled six years ago. It's already over. How does Utopia feel! Seriously though it does seem that humanity has passed its final exams, but we have even greater challenges before us now (as predicted). At any point we could "get behind" in our efforts and persue the path toward oblivion again. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 04:41:58 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Darwin (was Critical Path) In-Reply-To: <199502072034.MAA23087@netcom23.netcom.com> from "Michael Stutz" at Feb 7, 95 01:12:09 pm > Also anyone have any comments on his opposite-of-Darwin theories of > evolution? I find it fascinating and worth exploration, but came > across (on page eight, no less) what was to me the most "far-out" > thing of his that I read: "We can comprehend how South Sea-atoll, > lagoon frolicking male and female human swimmers gradually inbred > pairs of underwater swimmers who held their breath in their lungs for > ever-longer periods, and after many inbreedings of largest lungers and > as many outbreedings of general adaptability organic equipment, the > progency evolved into poroises and later into whales." Taking this > literally is to me more far-out than his theories that DNA-RNA was > 'landed' on the planet (which I could see). > i had read elsewhere that dolphins, etc. had been land animals that had returned to water, which is why they are mammal and not fish. however, saying these land animals were human seems a bit strange. proto-human, to be sure, but exactly how far along? can't a a lizard (or something) manage the same act? also, could you refresh me re: dna landing on earth and bucky's opposite-of-darwinism? crit path page numbers welcome. for the latter, are you referring to the idea of humans first appearing in the south-sea-atolls as opposed to africa? -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:30:09 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Critical Path In-Reply-To: ; from "Michael Stutz" at Feb 7, 95 1:12 pm Michael Stutz writes: > > Anyone out there remember when _Critical Path_ came out back in '81? > I started reading it this weekend and am curious as to what the > initial reactions were when the book came out. And as to people's > opinions on this "design science revolution" that was supposed to > begin six years ago; apparently it was my post-Moon-lander Generation > X that was to "command and execute" this revolution. One thing he > said was that the vcr would be the new form of interactive education; > I'd say that he was off a little, that the net is doing *right now* > exactly what he said videotapes would do. Critical Path came out in the "Spring" (Apr-Jun) of 1981. > > This is really a separate thread altogether, but -- > > Also anyone have any comments on his opposite-of-Darwin theories of > evolution? I find it fascinating and worth exploration, but came > across (on page eight, no less) what was to me the most "far-out" > thing of his that I read: "We can comprehend how South Sea-atoll, > lagoon frolicking male and female human swimmers gradually inbred > pairs of underwater swimmers who held their breath in their lungs for > ever-longer periods, and after many inbreedings of largest lungers and > as many outbreedings of general adaptability organic equipment, the > progency evolved into poroises and later into whales." Taking this > literally is to me more far-out than his theories that DNA-RNA was > 'landed' on the planet (which I could see). > .- > I think reverse evolution is possible--it makes sense to me. I think the same thing happened to the monkies. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:42:38 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Hanging Storage Shelf Unit In-Reply-To: ; from "Michael Stutz" at Feb 7, 95 12:58 pm Michael Stutz writes: > > This post relates to Fuller's last patent (US Patent 4,377,114) -- for a > "Hanging Storage Shelf Unit." (yeeks -- can you tell I've been reading > patents all day?) > > Has anyone ever seen one of these, or know of a place that sells/manufactures > them? I'm interested in them but I'd rather not build it myself if there > are some already out there. > > Thanks. > .- > Back in '83 a company called THONET used to sell the bookshelf and two types of posters. I don't know if they are still in business. Their address was: THONET Box 1587, Dept PM 491 East Princess St. York, PA 17405 They sold the bookshelf for $870, the metal poster for $100, and the paper poster for $10. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 12:15:51 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Darwin (was Critical Path) >i had read elsewhere that dolphins, etc. had been land animals that >had returned to water, which is why they are mammal and not fish. > >however, saying these land animals were human seems a bit strange. Right. Anything's possible, I suppose, but it sounds strange. >also, could you refresh me re: dna landing on earth and bucky's >opposite-of-darwinism? > >crit path page numbers welcome. Okay-- just about the entire first chapter deals with this stuff; the section explicitly talking about evolution begins on pg 6 (by "opposite-of-Darwinism" I mean that, while Darwin a "survival of the fittest" where the best of the crop breed with the best of the crop to produce a new better crop and so on evolving down the line, Fuller believed that the reverse would happen: breeding specialized "best-of"s would produce good specialists who lost their general adaptability); the dna coding telescanned & landed on pg 8 (first full paragraph, where he mentions that it could be possible that the trilobites & dinosaurs could've been "test landings" for humans). m ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 09:37:01 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: CRITICISM OF OTHER ARCHITECTURE For Bucky's views of other architectural styles see: 'Ideas and Integrities', pages 29-33. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:40:43 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond Subject: Re: Manhattan Dome > Date: Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:38:32 EST > From: "A Page in the Life of ..." > Subject: Manhattan Dome >> The only reason I can see to dome over Manhattan would be to protect >> the rest of the world from _the_sewer_that_never_sleeps_. > > Umm, snow, sleet, hail, rain and other precipitation comming in, and some > way to perhaps filter or at least cut down on the exhume of human living > (heat and CO2 are the inescapable ones ...) > Isn't that what we use houses, apartments, and offices for? I don't see the logic in sheltering shelters. >> I see many potential uses for the geodesic dome (most of which I've >> learned about since joining this list), but I strongly disagree with >> the idea of spending one's life indoors. > > Not "indoors" but sheltered. One can leave at will, and one > must abandon one's major polutants at the door (hopefully). > That means indoors. How can one just step outside when he/she would have to cross town to do so? There are many city dwellers who for some reason or lack of reason never leave their town. In a metropolis, such as Manhattan, with everything you need in town, there is even less incentive to venture passed the city limits. Remember, we're talking about Americans here, y'know the fat and lazy people of the world. People who get irradiated in indoor salons prior to going to the beach. People who have to go to the beach but then swim in the pool. >> "What doesn't kill you, will make you stronger" > > Why do you think it will kill you? It might, if nothing else, make us > weaker, due to the lessening of fighting with the elements. And it might > even help the elements to begin to recover ... think of the forced srubbing > of the air/water that would be recycled through the dome? If done > correctly, we would be taking a chunk of poisons out of the air for each > city so covered. > Here you missed the point entirely. I'm arguing against living in massive city-wide encompassing domes. Unless our dome designers are idiots, I would too imagine that conditions inside would be much more favorable than those outdoors. Therefore the hardships to which I infer that would _make_us_stronger_ are the elements of nature to which we are subjected. >> What chance would a child raised in an enclosed environement have at >> surviving later in life outside of this artificial womb. > > Again, I disagree that it would be entirely "closed" mostly because > business doesn't work that way. It would just be a city with the > equivelant of all the buildings interconnected. > If its not open - its closed. >> Maybe instead of trying to find a way to build a dome over a city, we >> should direct our attention towards making sure we will never have to >> dome over a city. > > Again, "have to" is based on all sorts of factors. Cubic is cheaper than > flat space. Realestate is the one comodity that we just _can't_ make more > of on our planet's survace without pushing some things to their limits. > Instead of letting a city (say ottawa) begin to sprall, use that outside > land for grazing, build ottawa into a volume instead of a surface, and > refrain from cutting down that much more of the Rain Forests. Save us from > mining more into the grounds and use the outer skin for power generation (a > whole bunch of solar/wind driven (or perhaps even thermic, due to the waste > heat of the inhabitants) energy generators on a large section of acerage > that just didn't exist before. > You still have not justified the erection of a dome over an already established city. You can build a garage for your '78 Gremlin, but its still a '78 Gremlin. I am well aware of the spacial and environmental benefits, but those arguments should be saved for a debate over creation of a new conventional city or a geodesic dome-town. *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "it is wise to keep in mind that no success or failure is necessarily final" -- H.Hammond ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:53:54 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Greg Marks I have several questions. I'm new to this list, so pardon me if I'm into something obvious or familiar. Is there a better name than "truncated tetrahedron" for the very special spherical configuration of 12 pentagons and 20 hexagons used in soccer balls, geodesic domes, and fullerene chemicals? Does anyone know the circumstances for selecting this geometry for modern soccer balls? Why was it not selected for basketballs, volley balls, etc. How does the timing of selecting this for soccer balls relate to Fuller's work, patents, etc. If anyone can point me to where this is discussed in the literature, I'll go hunt it up. I just finished Paddock's "Perfect Symmetry" book, but no luck there. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:37:03 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Darwin (was Critical Path) In-Reply-To: <199502082009.MAA01532@netcom19.netcom.com> from "Michael Stutz" at Feb 8, 95 12:15:51 pm >Michael Stutz: > >me: > >however, saying these land animals were human seems a bit strange. > Right. Anything's possible, I suppose, but it sounds strange. i see now that he says that humans are the only primates to shed salt-water tears, which dolphins, etc. also do. this is definitely a clue, but it could be a clue to many things. fuller chooses one of the least subtle: "hey, maybe humans _became_ dolphins." or maybe he knows more about the geometry of salt tears than i do. i've read, however, that squids evolved eyes very similar to our eyes, but along a quite divergent evolutionary path. the supposition was that eyes are something of an inherent geometry in universe, given photons and basic life chemistry. perhaps salt tears are the same way (they do seem simpler). or maybe some dolphins went on to become squids. ;) > "opposite-of-Darwinism" I mean that, while Darwin a "survival of the > fittest" where the best of the crop breed with the best of the crop to > produce a new better crop and so on evolving down the line, Fuller > believed that the reverse would happen: breeding specialized > "best-of"s would produce good specialists who lost their general > adaptability). this seems logical. i haven't studied darwinism in-depth, but i seem to recall that his main thing was focusing on mutations as the source of alternate gene encodings that natural selection can choose from. this is, i guess, obsolete. they've decided that mutation can't account for it. spontaneous order of some sort seems neccessary. this is how i've always accomodated the statement "darwin was wrong". another way is to simply attack the popular meme "survival of the fittest". this statement is clearly misleading. the less-than-fittest must survive as well, else who will the fittest have to dominate? better: "death of the unfit" - which is tautology: that which cannot live, dies. overspecialization comes from death (or other breeding exclusion) being too pointed. if all the white moths die from being visible against the pollution, only black moths can pass genes. less pointed death, however, leaves quite a wide set of possibilities that can be expanded on by breeding. fuller points out the difficulty in breeding for generalization. it is impossible to accurately predict which characteristics will be of general use. this is directly in line with synergy. all possible applications of anything can't be fully anticipated. the process of actually applying it to everything can't be short- circuited (else why would we need application at all?). this is my take on natural selection, the generalized principle of which _is_ an applicable contribution of darwin. higher geometry in universe is just as inherent as lower geometry. but universe builds from lower to higher. universe "discovers" the application of its doings, and spontaneously applies them. evolution is driven by the fact that there will always be applications as yet undiscovered. > the dna coding telescanned & landed on pg 8 (first full > paragraph, where he mentions that it could be possible that the > trilobites & dinosaurs could've been "test landings" for humans). > > m i've seen the idea of human dna being landed on earth from elsewhere. i've seen it as a science-fiction device to explain the proliferation of human-like races in such sf universes as Larry Niven's, and that of star trek. i've always wondered, however, if dna weren't part of the inherent geometry of universe. perhaps it is _the_ most spontaneously reachable reproductive geometry. and the human dna encoding is, perhaps, a reasonable development of that given basic land environments, etc. i don't see what is gained by moving its origin off planet. this, in my eyes, simply begs the question. if it was intentionally designed, then let's ponder the potentially more spontaneously feasible geometry of the designers. bucky didn't seem to carry this through very far, though. or did he? i didn't even remember it until i reread the pages just now. i haven't seen such wildness in his other writings. perhaps it's just another funky idea he felt like chewing on for a moment. i think many (most?) people look at bucky's weird ideas and spontaneously think he is attributing vast significance to them, rather than merely speculating about _potential_ application. no doubt this aimed his effect on the world in particular directions that he himself was inherently unable to anticipate. i wonder, then, if _critical path_ was seen as just another weird new-agey philosophy book, and ignored as such. if it was popularized in like fashion, perhaps many people who did read it forgot it when the trend it was connected to moved on. but it is the ideas, and not the time-bound applications, that defy obsolescence. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 15:46:40 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Darwin (tagdi) To: setebos@netcom.com (Karl Erickson) From: tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl Subject: RE: Darwin (was Critical Path) forwarded to GEODESIC for tagdi (who was unable to get through) > Also anyone have any comments on his opposite-of-Darwin theories of >> evolution? I find it fascinating and worth exploration, but came the study of evoultion is so mixed up , eventhough it has been mixed with economics , education and sociology , it is not clear to me how is it doen. one comment might be relevent is to look at the history of education befor and after Darwin. it seems now that i think about it that Darwin himself was influenced by the simplistic of education system which as a whole thought children only writting readin and little artimatic and bible sayings anyway thatwas more less the idea of education . Nepoleon was one of the first to legeslate complex education system based on high schools and technical schools . 1803 somewher there. education in england wasnot centrized . mostlly made of different socities but at least the first 12 to 14 years was very very simplestic conception of how to teach children now we know that children are very complex and can learn even how solar system works if given in child way of understanding . solar system being synergatic . children can deal with complexes more than probablly million times more than adualts at least in creative way >> across (on page eight, no less) what was to me the most "far-out" >> thing of his that I read: "We can comprehend how South Sea-atoll, >> lagoon frolicking male and female human swimmers gradually inbred >> pairs of underwater swimmers who held their breath in their lungs for >> ever-longer periods, and after many inbreedings of largest lungers and F ideas are only speculative but are intrguing . when i read this the idea that humans love the sea and seem to be drwan to it in mysterous way ,crossed my mind . also the myth of marimad is very strong mthy. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 20:25:49 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: BUCKY'S CITY PROJECTS There is another, earlier citation for the Manhattan dome proposal, for anybody who's keeping track: there is an article by Bucky called "The Case for a domed City" in a special supplement to the St. Louis Post Dispatch of 9/26/65. It's an expanded version of the proposal most of us are familiar with, without many more technical details. Likely reprinted from another source. Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:38:20 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Geodesic Breakdown X-To: "Ken G. Brown" In-Reply-To: <1995Feb08.153324.2804751@maugham.atc.edmonton.ab.ca>; from "Ken G. Brown" at Feb 8, 95 3:33 pm Ken G. Brown writes: > > Joe > It's always good to see your interesting tid-bits on the Geodesic list. > Keep up the info flow. > I seem to recall somewhere a short reference to being able to create a > geodesic breakdown with all the same length struts based on some sort of > infinite series or some such thing. Do you know of anything like this? > > -Ken G. Brown- > Leduc, AB Canada > Same length struts has to do with Tensegrities. With tensegrity designs it's possible to have structures where all the struts are the same length and all the tension lines are the same length! Fuller called this the Unitary Component Tensegrity. See 'Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller', pages 169 and 234. Huge domes can only be built using tensegrity principles. See also pages 57-60. By the way, everyone should have a copy of 'Dymanion World'; I refer to it all the time. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 21:17:22 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Manhattan Dome >> Not "indoors" but sheltered. One can leave at will, and one > That means indoors. How can one just step outside when he/she > would have to cross town to do so? [...] >> Again, I disagree that it would be entirely "closed" mostly because > If its not open - its closed. [...] > You can build a garage for your '78 Gremlin, but its still a '78 Gremlin. Harry, you're making a mistake in logic here -- that of either/or ("the mistake of western civilization" -- william s burroughs). Things vary in degrees; either/or misassumes two absolutes, a world of 0 and 1 and nothing else. Check out Bart Kosko's _Fuzzy Thinking_ (an ok intro into fuzzy logic) or the "Black _and_ White" chapter of Alan Watt's _The Book_. Hayakawa's _Language in Thought and Action_ is another good reference point, more accessible than Korczybski. To kinda pull in the "geodesic" theme here, I'll add that the first few pages of the intro to _Critical Path_ deals with just this -- the old misassumption of "negative and positive," or "good and bad." Also re: your last statement "You can build a garage ...," I would refute that with a basic definition of synergy (the whole is greater than its parts), and add that the inside-outing of a tetrahedron is a complex process. m ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 04:37:14 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Consumer Credit Advocates Organization: Consumer Credit Advocates, PC Subject: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Consumer Credit Advocates, PC 11 Pennsylvania Plaza, Suite 2101 New York, NY 10001 (212) 629-5261 (telephone) (212) 629-4762 (fax) E-MAIL: ccapc@cyber.sell.com Our LAW FIRM offers direct guaranteed effective credit restoration services by experienced attorneys. THIS IS NOT A DO-IT-YOURSELF KIT. What can we do? 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Please post your messages in the appropriate areas. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 11:39:26 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Darwin (tagdi) >>> across (on page eight, no less) what was to me the most "far-out" >>> thing of his that I read: "We can comprehend how South Sea-atoll, >>> lagoon frolicking male and female human swimmers gradually inbred >>> pairs of underwater swimmers who held their breath in their lungs for >>> ever-longer periods, and after many inbreedings of largest lungers and > >F ideas are only speculative but are intrguing . when i read this >the idea that humans love the sea and seem to be drwan to it in mysterous >way ,crossed my mind . also the myth of marimad is very strong mthy. These ideas are very mysterious, and that's what I like about them. It seems to me that we never really know the beginnings or ends of things, but just the part where we're at -- the middle (and even that only to a degree). That's assuming there *is* a beginning and end, I guess. m ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:30:28 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond > Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 17:53:54 -0500 > From: Greg Marks > Is there a better name than "truncated tetrahedron" for the very special > spherical configuration of 12 pentagons and 20 hexagons used in soccer balls, > geodesic domes, and fullerene chemicals? Does anyone know the circumstances f or > selecting this geometry for modern soccer balls? Why was it not selected for > basketballs, volley balls, etc. How does the timing of selecting this for > soccer balls relate to Fuller's work, patents, etc. > well - making an educated guess - i would imagine that the design was chosen for its strength. soccer balls probably take more abuse. as for using similar designs for other sports equipment - well? the basketball is moved down the court by bouncing the ball down off a flat surface repeatedly. the multitude of seams on a geodesic basketball would cause the ball to error in bounce. volleyballs - maybe - but is that type of structural strength necessary? it sure seems to work good for soccer balls. *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "Remember: No success or failure is necessarily final" -- H.Hammond ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:45:42 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond Subject: Re: Manhattan Dome > >> Not "indoors" but sheltered. One can leave at will, and one > > That means indoors. How can one just step outside when he/she > > would have to cross town to do so? > [...] > >> Again, I disagree that it would be entirely "closed" mostly because > > If its not open - its closed. > [...] > > You can build a garage for your '78 Gremlin, but its still a '78 Gremlin. > > Harry, you're making a mistake in logic here -- that of either/or ("the mistak e > of western civilization" -- william s burroughs). Things vary in degrees; > either/or misassumes two absolutes, a world of 0 and 1 and nothing else. Chec k > out Bart Kosko's _Fuzzy Thinking_ (an ok intro into fuzzy logic) or the "Black > _and_ White" chapter of Alan Watt's _The Book_. Hayakawa's _Language in Thoug ht > and Action_ is another good reference point, more accessible than Korczybski. > > To kinda pull in the "geodesic" theme here, I'll add that the first few pages > of the intro to _Critical Path_ deals with just this -- the old misassumption > of "negative and positive," or "good and bad." Also re: your last statement > "You can build a garage ...," I would refute that with a basic definition of > synergy (the whole is greater than its parts), and add that the inside-outing > of a tetrahedron is a complex process. > > m > I don't believe i've been taking the all or nothing point of view. Inside a shelter or outside a shelter - seems rather cut and dry to me. Even if your shelter can similuate an outdoor feel, its not the real thing. Heck - if you wanted the real thing, you wouldn't build the shelter - right? I guess my idea of _utopia_ isn't as perfect as yours. as for my "last statement" - it was just another sarcastic analogy - don't take it too seriously. *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "Remember: No success or failure is necessarily final" -- H.Hammond ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 08:46:20 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Barbara Greene Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Subject: Tensile Plydomes? Has anyone else worked with Fuller's tensile plydomes? I am considering building a cluster of them for a house, then ferrocementing them, but last researched the subject about ten years ago, so wonder if anyone has actually done this recently? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:37:33 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nate Briggs Subject: fuller's legacy I have long thought that there is enough Fulleriana to make a fine educational product - with that in mind I began casual research about a year ago. I began with the assumption that there would be something like a Fuller Institute or a Fuller Society that would be seeing after the patents, leading discussion of his designs (few of which have been discussed in the mainstream media lately) and generally shepherding the legacy of Mr. Fuller toward a time when his ideas are more fully appreciated. So far, I've found no such group Was there such a group in the distant past? Do they still operate now? Is there such a thing as a Main Fuller Archive? I would be grateful for any information on this topic. - Nate Briggs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 16:52:41 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leonard Auslender Subject: Re: Manhattan Dome Jeez, I'd sure hate to see L.A. get domed over--I need to know there's a way out! Peace, health and happiness to you and yours, Leonard Auslender: siddhatma@aol.com {E-Mail welcome :)} "Friendships, like marriages, are dependent on avoiding the unforgivable." --John D. MacDonald ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 15:20:14 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Darwin In-Reply-To: <199502092050.MAA23766@netcom20.netcom.com> from "Michael Stutz" at Feb 9, 95 11:39:26 am Michael Stutz: > That's assuming there *is* a beginning and end, I guess. fuller's definition of finite universe is dependent on the beginning and end of perceived events, which overlap. to consider _no_ beginning and end, we must redefine the beginnings and endings perceived as something else. we are then in purely speculative territory. such a posit doesn't look like it would yield significant discovery as it's not experientially based. i consider the beginning to be 1, counting upward, and the "end" to be now (but i'm unable to tell you what number that might be ). -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 19:03:33 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leonard Auslender Subject: Re: Darwin (tagdi) "We can comprehend how South Sea-atoll, >>> lagoon frolicking male and female human swimmers gradually inbred >>> pairs of underwater swimmers who held their breath in their lungs for >>> ever-longer periods, and after many inbreedings of largest lungers and > >F ideas are only speculative but are intrguing > It seems to me that we never really know the beginnings or ends of > things, but just the part where we're at -- the middle (and even that > only to a degree). That's assuming there *is* a beginning and end, I > guess. A hen is just an egg's way of producing another egg. Peace, health and happiness to you and yours, Leonard Auslender: siddhatma@aol.com {E-Mail welcome :)} "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." --George Bernard Shaw ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 18:59:02 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: Critical Path X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Michael Stutz" at Feb 7, 95 01:12:09 pm Michael-- Does the unexpected ending of the Cold War count as the beginning of the design science revolution? I think it signals something, but I will leave the conclusions to you after you have read further into Critical Path. Kiyoshi > > Anyone out there remember when _Critical Path_ came out back in '81? > I started reading it this weekend and am curious as to what the > initial reactions were when the book came out. And as to people's > opinions on this "design science revolution" that was supposed to > begin six years ago; apparently it was my post-Moon-lander Generation > X that was to "command and execute" this revolution. One thing he > said was that the vcr would be the new form of interactive education; > I'd say that he was off a little, that the net is doing *right now* > exactly what he said videotapes would do. > > > This is really a separate thread altogether, but -- > > Also anyone have any comments on his opposite-of-Darwin theories of > evolution? I find it fascinating and worth exploration, but came > across (on page eight, no less) what was to me the most "far-out" > thing of his that I read: "We can comprehend how South Sea-atoll, > lagoon frolicking male and female human swimmers gradually inbred > pairs of underwater swimmers who held their breath in their lungs for > ever-longer periods, and after many inbreedings of largest lungers and > as many outbreedings of general adaptability organic equipment, the > progency evolved into poroises and later into whales." Taking this > literally is to me more far-out than his theories that DNA-RNA was > 'landed' on the planet (which I could see). > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 01:49:14 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: KCuddeback@AOL.COM Subject: The Newsletter Please add me to your mailing list. The topic is very interesting to me. KCuddeback@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 02:29:32 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: fuller's legacy Nate Briggs wrote: >Is there such a thing as a Main Fuller >Archive? The Buckminster Fuller Institute 2040 Alameda Padre Serra, Suite 224 Santa Barbara, CA 93103 805/962-0022 >I have long thought that there is enough Fulleriana to make a >fine educational product - with that in mind I began casual >research about a year ago. > >I began with the assumption that there would be something >like a Fuller Institute or a Fuller Society that would be >seeing after the patents, leading discussion of his designs >(few of which have been discussed in the mainstream media >lately) and generally shepherding the legacy of Mr. Fuller >toward a time when his ideas are more fully appreciated. > >So far, I've found no such group Welcome aboard. I too went on a quest looking for some kind of group like what you're talking about ... and I think this is it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 13:51:46 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: Darwin In Message Thu, 09 Feb 1995 11:39:26 -0500, Michael Stutz writes: >>>> across (on page eight, no less) what was to me the most "far-out" >>>> thing of his that I read: "We can comprehend how South Sea-atoll, >>>> lagoon frolicking male and female human swimmers gradually inbred >>>> pairs of underwater swimmers who held their breath in their lungs for >>>> ever-longer periods, and after many inbreedings of largest lungers and >> >>F ideas are only speculative but are intrguing . when i read this >>the idea that humans love the sea and seem to be drwan to it in mysterous >>way ,crossed my mind . also the myth of marimad is very strong mthy. > >These ideas are very mysterious, and that's what I like about them. >It seems to me that we never really know the beginnings or ends of >things, but just the part where we're at -- the middle (and even that >only to a degree). That's assuming there *is* a beginning and end, I >guess. what is even more intriguing is the mind discoveries of connection . i mean really seeing releations . to solve the problem of the begining and end . first we need to correct . the idea of instantanous time reflex which based on galilo transformation, and Morly transformation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 11:34:55 EST Reply-To: dkap@vax.ftp.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "A Page in the Life of ..." Subject: Manhattan dome In-Reply-To: Dan Tremitiere's message of Sat, 4 Feb 1995 00:43:50 GMT <199502040927.EAA25894@cs.brandeis.edu> Just a practical question regarding the NYC dome-over: How, if this plan were carried out, would one keep snow off in the winter? Two different and equally aplicable answers: 1) Why would you want to? It is a stable structure and the added weight wouldn't be a problem, and it *is* a good insulator. 2) Human waste heat should melt it quite nicely. Dave K. -- I will not get very far with this attitude. -- Bart Simson ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 15:52:12 EST Reply-To: dkap@vax.ftp.com Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "A Page in the Life of ..." Subject: Manhattan Dome In-Reply-To: "Harry 'BadDog' Hammond"'s message of Wed, 8 Feb 1995 14:40:43 EST <199502082031.PAA17386@cs.brandeis.edu> >> The only reason I can see to dome over Manhattan would be to protect >> the rest of the world from _the_sewer_that_never_sleeps_. > > Umm, snow, sleet, hail, rain and other precipitation comming in, and some > way to perhaps filter or at least cut down on the exhume of human living > (heat and CO2 are the inescapable ones ...) > Isn't that what we use houses, apartments, and offices for? I don't see the logic in sheltering shelters. Yes, but unless you are planning to hibernate in yor house/apartment you still have to deal with the incomming elements on a day to day basis. How often do you catch a "cold" just walking down the street? How often does a city person? How about a walk in the park? In the snow? Human exude, the second part of my statement still needs to be dealt with -- especially for an old city (or a Gremlin) and that is the second reason above that needs to be addressed. The dome can be constructed to filter that as it goes *out* and that helps our world much more than anything else. >> I see many potential uses for the geodesic dome (most of which I've >> learned about since joining this list), but I strongly disagree with >> the idea of spending one's life indoors. > > Not "indoors" but sheltered. One can leave at will, and one > must abandon one's major polutants at the door (hopefully). > That means indoors. How can one just step outside when he/she would have to cross town to do so? In places it is safer to go cross town to "step outside" than it is to go outside your own door. 1) most people *don't* step outside except in the country (they go from house/apartment to car to office and back, outside time maybe a few seconds or even minutes) because the air in the city is BAD for you, and usually the wrong temperature for you to be comfortable in. 2) what is the inherent benefit of "outside"? If you mean the exposure, then most people would prefer to avoid it until they wanted to expose themeslves (and after all that information about skin cancer and such, I don't blame them) or if you mean for exercize or fresh air reasons, then both of these would be improved by doming over the city, for the air polution would be cut down, and there would be more space to exercize in (assuming that people continue to take advantage of cubic now available rather than surface) There are many city dwellers who for some reason or lack of reason never leave their town. In a metropolis, such as Manhattan, with everything you need in town, there is even less incentive to venture passed the city limits. Remember, we're talking about Americans here, y'know the fat and lazy people of the world. People who get irradiated in indoor salons prior to going to the beach. People who have to go to the beach but then swim in the pool. Yes, but they still go through the effort of going to the beach which is outside their city limits. They still will irratiate themselves and go to pools, just as they do now, but they don't have to restrict those activities to a certain time of the year, or worry about bundling up so heavily unless they choose to go out into the cold elements. >> "What doesn't kill you, will make you stronger" > > Why do you think it will kill you? It might, if nothing else, make us > weaker, due to the lessening of fighting with the elements. And it might > even help the elements to begin to recover ... think of the forced srubbing > of the air/water that would be recycled through the dome? If done > correctly, we would be taking a chunk of poisons out of the air for each > city so covered. > Here you missed the point entirely. I'm arguing against living in massive city-wide encompassing domes. Unless our dome designers are idiots, I would too imagine that conditions inside would be much more favorable than those outdoors. Therefore the hardships to which I infer that would _make_us_stronger_ are the elements of nature to which we are subjected. So you wish to weed the gene pool based on economics? I don't think that is a fair choice of stronger/weaker. >> What chance would a child raised in an enclosed environement have at >> surviving later in life outside of this artificial womb. > > Again, I disagree that it would be entirely "closed" mostly because > business doesn't work that way. It would just be a city with the > equivelant of all the buildings interconnected. > If its not open - its closed. Closed=No openings. Let's look at several (conventional) structures. A concrete bunker, (one opening, a door) a house, (several openings, doors and windows) a tent, (definitly a roof, at least one of the walls are mostly open) and, an awning (just a roof). I picture the dome somewhat close to a tent in style. The roof is solid, the sides have open areas (not doors, just openings) for traffic of whatever sort (foot / bike / public transport / teleportal / whatever) hence it is open. Covered but open. >> Maybe instead of trying to find a way to build a dome over a city, we >> should direct our attention towards making sure we will never have to >> dome over a city. > > Again, "have to" is based on all sorts of factors. Cubic is cheaper than > flat space. Realestate is the one comodity that we just _can't_ make more > of on our planet's survace without pushing some things to their limits. > Instead of letting a city (say ottawa) begin to sprall, use that outside > land for grazing, build ottawa into a volume instead of a surface, and > refrain from cutting down that much more of the Rain Forests. Save us from > mining more into the grounds and use the outer skin for power generation (a > whole bunch of solar/wind driven (or perhaps even thermic, due to the waste > heat of the inhabitants) energy generators on a large section of acerage > that just didn't exist before. > You still have not justified the erection of a dome over an already established city. You can build a garage for your '78 Gremlin, but its still a '78 Gremlin. I am well aware of the spacial and environmental benefits, but those arguments should be saved for a debate over creation of a new conventional city or a geodesic dome-town. Yes, but if I built a several floor garage with filtration on it so instead of parking four Gremlins in the space that I had and putting out four Gremlins worth of polution I was parking eight and putting out maybe two worth of polution or perhaps instead of four and eight I was doing it for nine and twenty-seven, you might see the benefits. Now if I took the space that the other gremlins would be parking in and used it to raise food (gasoline? gasahol?) for the now more economically stacked and less polutant Gremlins, would that begin to be a win? And how about the surface area that I just generated? Even if I just housed one gremlin in a garage, perhaps I could now put solar panels on that garage (or grow a garden or ...) in a space that was previously not usable. Don't limit your thinking to planar circumstances, we have CUBIC, let's use it for once. Dave K. -- "Mommy, do all fairy tales begin with `Once upon a time'?" "No, dear. Nowadays, lots of them start with `If I am elected...'." And here i thought the modern form was, "No shit, there we were..." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 17:13:20 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: Geodesic Breakdown >> I seem to recall somewhere a short reference to being able to create a >> geodesic breakdown with all the same length struts... A practical dome with all struts the same length and all angles equal was my goal for a greenhouse dome I built in New Hampshire in the mid '70s. It worked, looked good, and stood like a rock through wind, snow loads, etc. It was taken apart in 1983 (sob!) by the folks who bought the place from me. (Some struts were re-used in a deck, and some in other handyman projects. Karma stepped in and rewarded the dome-wreckers with unemployment, foreclosure on the subject property, and a spring wash-out on the rather tricky driveway.) BUT ---> The dome was >> NOT << a true geodesic! (For details about the "dome that bucked bucky" - e-mail me) If you are into the math end of things, you will find that you are split between two options if you want a "true" geodesic - shape and size! I will summarize from my (yellowed, dog-eared) project notes below: You start with a triangular polyhedron face, and start subdividing it, then push all of the vertices of the grid outward until they are a common distance from the center (for a sphere). When you are done, some of the lines of the subdivision will follow great circles that are inherent in the structure. You want the lines that DON'T follow great circles to at least trace partial great circles, ending at the edges of the (original) polyhedron. You also want to maintain some sort of reasonable symmetrical spacing, so that all the little triangles will be nearly equilateral. The grid lines (for a class-I breakdown system) run (roughly) parallel to the edges of the polyhedron face. You want to pick the crossing points, and there are a bunch of different techniques, each yeilding different strut lengths for a similar dome. All of them are "correct" in that they give you three-way grids with sphere vertices equidistant from the center of the dome. But the only critical choice here is between triangle SHAPE and triangle SIZE. 1) If you let the triangle sizes vary, you can keep their shapes more constant. 2) If you let the triangle shapes vary, you can keep their sizes more constant. The first option is a better idea from both a structural and an aesthetic point of view. The more nearly equilateral all the triangles are, the more equilibrated it will be to the stress and strain and pushes and pulls that you get in the real world. Although most of the triangles are NEARLY equilateral in a typical "bucky-dome", if ALL the triangles in a "bucky-dome" where exactly equilateral, we would have a flat surface, not a dome. It the DEPARTURE from being equilateral that makes the curvature. If the two paragraphs above are confusing, simply think about a single vertex of any "bucky-dome". If it is a dome-ish shape, then the sum of the angles about the vertex at hand MUST BE LESS than 360 degrees. (If all the angles add up to 360 degrees, then we must have a flat surface.) The difference between the actual sum-of-angles and 360 degrees is called the "spherical excess" of that vertex (by engineers). Descartes proved many moons ago that the sum total of all spherical excess of all the vertices in any polyhedron must allways total 720 degrees. Sooo... find a nice photo in your favorite bucky book. Count the number of vertex points. Divide 720 by 2 (a dome is often rougly 1/2 a sphere) which equals 360 degrees. Now divide 360 degrees by the vertex count. The resulting number is how many degrees of spherical excess ON AVERAGE per vertex. In actual domes, the exact figure changes for different vertex points on different domes. (Also be aware of 3/4 and 5/8 domes, which are more than 1/2 a sphere...) EDITORIAL OPINION: Building real structures requires an admission that there are no exact angles, no exact lengths, and no perfect fits. A detailed stress analysis of any "bucky-dome" will shown that the structure never settles down!!! The dome will shift about as it is subjected to stresses, simply because the dome will try to "share" the stress in often, unusual ways. Crash into a dome with a car, and you will find that the point of impact may not break at all, while a break WILL happen at a point opposite the point of impact! The day-to-day stresses of the wind are the biggest factor in causing many domes to slowly pull apart and "leak" - not a problem in a greenhouse, but don't drip on my computer! Domes are also far too "trusting" of the earth as a solid and non-moving base. This is a basic defect in the concept, since we are forced by building codes to tie structures to foundations, which move when the earth does, perhaps forcing the dome to adopt a very "unnatural" shape, with resulting structural strains/failures. Don't live in an earthquake area? You still have a problem 'cause foundations tend to settle over time. You can get around these code regulation with a greenhouse, though... Domes are also very active echo-chambers. Since all faces point at the center, any sound is reflected very, very well. Once again, OK for a greenhouse, but don't make me live in a dome with kids, dogs, TVs, stereos, et. al. Don't get me wrong - I love domes! I have built a few, so I know the problems. If there is interest, I could make available accurate math for practical (and impractical :}) applications. Cost would be no more than enough to recover my scanning/OCR costs, and distribution would be on floppy. ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 20:06:19 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Manhattan dome snow load >> Just a practical question regarding the NYC dome-over: >> How, if this plan were carried out, would one keep snow off in the winter? >Two different and equally aplicable answers: >1) Why would you want to? It is a stable structure and the added weight >wouldn't be a problem, and it *is* a good insulator. >2) Human waste heat should melt it quite nicely. >Dave K. Snow would probably not pose a weight problem, especially since at least 1/5 of the domed surface's slope would shunt it off immediately. Leaving the snow to melt by itself raises some potential problems, though. Danger of all-at-once avalanche of snow sufficient to break the rain-water gathering structures which encircle the bottom, or, worse, damaging and/or burying buildings outside the dome. Snow buildup could contribute to the development of leaks on the dome's skin. Worst problem is the blockage of sunlight for possible extended periods, which screws up the theorized air circulation and temperature regulation mechanism, kills plants, encourages growth of microorganisms normally killed by UV radiation, drives people crazy, etc. The kicker is ice. A cubic foot of fresh-fallen snow weighs about 8 lbs and a cubic foot of ice weighs about 60. With the dome skin's outside temperature 1 mile up being about, what, 10 to 15 degrees coler than surface temperature, icing is a real possibility. More cost-effective to build in the wiring than to reinforce the dome to carry that heavy load. If anybody sees a hole in my reasoning, the door to my cubicle is always open! Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 03:58:08 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bruce Lieberman Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM Joe, This guy posted it on virtually every newgroup I visited recently. I imagine the concentration of flame on his end is pretty amazing by now :) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:58:35 +0000 Reply-To: richard@henderr.demon.co.uk Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Richard Henderson Subject: Re: GUARANTEED CREDIT REPAIR BY LAW FIRM > Joe, > > This guy posted it on virtually every newgroup I visited recently. > I imagine the concentration of flame on his end is pretty amazing by now :) huh. I ended up paying to download 17 copies of the offending spam - he managed to hit around half of the newsgroups I'm subscribed to. I mailed each and every one back to him, fully expecting to get them bounced back to me with a 'User's mailbox is full' error, but it looks like they got through okay (har har).. *---------------------------------------------------------- richard@henderr.demon.co.uk / goatboy@well.sf.ca.us http://www-bprc.mps.ohio-state.edu/cgi-bin/hpp?GoatBoy.html ----------------------------------------------------------* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 00:02:07 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Julie Anne Troyer Organization: University of Oregon Subject: dymaxion maps vs. gridlines Not to qualify my ideas but, this may seem a bit presumptuous, but hey I guess if there are folk out there who state that Bucky chewed on the idea that DNA and RNA were seeded from an extraplanetary source, my ideas won't trundle to far into an unentertainable realm. Grab your copy of Synergetics 2, flip to colour plate 30, at the back. Basic disequilibrium, could those great circles and nodes of intersection be macrocosmic nervous system, thus aiding the current Gaia hypothesis? It seems that according to some scholars (Becker and Hagen, for two) believe these to be the electromagnetic grid lines that cover the surface of this organic spaceship Earth. It seems that at major crossing points there tends to be either strange physical anomilies, such as the Burmuda Triangle, or significant monuments like Stonehenge and the Great Pyramids. I am curious if any one out there has heard anything about this, or simply has some intuitive responses. I am attempting to compose a theoretical map of this grid lines since the only people who seem to have a complete copy are the military. (I could be wrong on this, I do know that the military has a copy and has used it to build many of its stratigical sites, however I do not know for sure no one else has it. I have not found any other sources.) I know this reaks of a conspiratory rat, and sounds as if I am jumping on the paranoid bandwagon, but logically the circles are consistant. If I am wrong I would love some tangible proof, If I am right I would love some tangible proof. I just seek some good old fashioned negentropy. Valor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 07:35:40 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: dymaxion maps vs. gridlines (fwd) > ...there are folk out there who state that Bucky chewed on the idea > that DNA and RNA were seeded from an extraplanetary source... Food for thought: Remember when some comet hit jupiter, just recently. Does anybody remember what It looked like? My memory of it resonates with the idea of egg and sperm. The size proportions seem to be right on. Maybe it was a cosmic spark of life. etabello@chat.carleton.ca at night I wonder how old I am calcium in my bones forged in stars exploded long before the Sun was a swirl in the dust -transcribed from Brave New Waves CBC Stereo 0-4:00est sunday to thursday ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 11:43:23 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Wenzel Subject: Darwin I believe evolutionary biologists generally agree that dolphins and the other cetaceans derive from a common land-dwelling ancestor to canines ( dogs, wolves, etc. ) and bears ( I will avoid the phrase 'arose from', which smacks of the uni-vector line-of-ascent to superior forms that I think Fuller was suspicious of ). Behaviorally speaking, dolphins certainly exhibit a rich social life along the lines of terrestrial pack predators like wolves. Fuller seemed to have a real bug about the idea of complex human beings evolving from 'single one-celled animals', believing that whole systems cannot form from fractionally seperated-out parts. I've wondered if he was missing the forest for the trees, for he states often that growth is from the essentially-pythagorian harmonic subdivision of existing simplex wholes, not through accumulative agglomeration. Cellular division and embryonic development seem geometrically to be just such a pythagorian-infolding, as does the increase of information densisty on the DNA strand ( contrasting, say, an individual blue-green algae to an individual primate ). One might posit the original local simplex whole to be the post-super nova cinder block earth, followed by a progressive Lovelock-Margulis infolding-unfolding of planetary awakening. Anyway, life ain't the telephone it talks over. Steve Wenzel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:56:56 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Darwin In-Reply-To: <199502111647.IAA09978@mail4.netcom.com> from "Steve Wenzel" at Feb 11, 95 11:43:23 am Steve Wenzel: > wondered if [bucky] was missing the forest for the trees, for he states > often that growth is from the essentially-pythagorian harmonic > subdivision of existing simplex wholes, not through accumulative > agglomeration. what looks like agglomeration in many cases is more efficiently seen as subdivision. when we count, we are accumulating a pile of numbers, but the view that we are (instead) distinguishing and labeling subdivisions of time might often be more significant. bucky was not always consistent, but his views all seem reasonable in some context or other. > One might posit the original local simplex whole to be the > post-super nova cinder block earth, followed by a progressive > Lovelock-Margulis infolding-unfolding of planetary awakening. an excellent perspective. i'm unfamiliar with Margulis, though. could you paraphrase his central ideas? the alocal simplex whole of universe/tao i see as, quite simply, 0. you can't get much simpler than that. the details of the infolding-unfolding of universe awakening move initially to simple geometry like synergetics, and eventually to vastly complex fractal iterations that yield us universe perceiving beings only at mind-boggling depth. great post, btw. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 09:58:14 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: entropy i've been reading Norbert Wiener's _The Human Use of Human Beings: Cybernetics and Society_ (1954) recently, and in the first few chapters (all i've read so far) he talks about some of the stuff i remember bucky referring to: Malthus' overpopulation & resource scarcity, Darwin's views of evolutionary progress via "survival of the fittest", etc. he also talks about world philosophies and religions being tied to the scientific assumptions of the time that there can be no real progress in the face of entropy. looking back over the technological progress of the planet, he sees that the innovations up to the beginnings of the "modern era" have been largely unspectacular - the musket being only somewhat more efficient than the longbow, for example. the spectacular innovations of recent times, however, are the historically unprecendented source of our very idea of human progress. there is, however, still the unavoidable apparition of entropy and the eventual "heat death of the universe". Wiener seems a positivist, though, and focuses logically enough on the present. in the reasonable context of human-scale time periods, the local pockets of "reversed entropy" that life entails seem reason enough to accomodate a philosophy of optimism. but such context-dependant optimism seems opposed to a generalized perspective of universe integrity. bucky has the view that entropy is exactly countered by an invisible, opposite force: syntropy. i can't help but see this view as inherently more logical. entropy is the measure of the decrease in temperature differentiation that can be put to work. but i've always wondered how scientists think this temperature difference got there in the first place. also, the idea of "local pockets of negetive entropy" seems misconceived to me. i've always thought a better view of entropy would be in terms of greatest economy - geodesy. the entropy of increasing disorder is a statistical greater economy, but when life molocules (for example) self-order, it is as a result of chemical reactions that are also moving spontaneously in the most economical directions. the science literature that i've read, though, chooses to see all this in terms of a bit of order exchanged for a larger bit of disorder - a trade off that ultimately "decreases entropy" only by in-actuality increasing it in-total. but _nowhere_ are there any goings-on that are not, quite simply, most economical. entropy is both disorder _and_ order, it seems, and to see order in terms of "negetive entropy" seems the height of subtly misdirecting misnomer. there is also the issue of scale. from whose perspective is bigger better? Wiener and other scientists, too closely obeying the conceptual parameters of the second law of thermo- dynamics, find value in these local pockets of negentropy, but also see them as ultimately ill-fated. the constant price of disorder for order tells them that the universe can move only in the direction of ever-increasing entropy-debt, which will eventually result in bankruptcy - "heat death". (why "heat death" anyway? most of the universe is much colder than we are, so an equilibrium would be colder, a "cold death".) the "doing more with less" of synergetics, applied to universe scale, tells us that calculating the entropy-debt on a pound-for- pound basis is absurd. an ounce of order is worth how many of disorder? if all the eventual disorder in the universe is in exchange for an incredibly dense (but getting smaller/denser) packet of order, the vast disorder can't possibly care. the tiny packet of dense order, however, will presumably be too busy doing its own thing to care. and this perspective is one that doesn't even accomodate fuller's "eternally regenerative universe" concept, which may preclude "heat death" altogether. so why is entropy seen as the great (ultimately) negative force of the universe? by canonizing it as the "Second Law", a law which is only "obeyed" on a statistical (as opposed to inherent) basis anyway, many people have likely been made to sense that life itself is not really part of the grand geometry, but is actually sort of "on probation" pending eventual execution as the neccessary balancing penalty for breaking the laws of physics. what other views of entropy (or elaborations of fuller's views) have others pondered? comments actively sought. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 14:42:20 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: dymaxion maps vs. gridlines X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Julie Anne Troyer" at Feb 11, 95 00:02:07 am Valor-- I don't want to drift too much into the heady world of "borderland science." But, there is a whole literature on geomancy--what are called "old straight tracks" or "ley lines" in the West, or "dragon trails" in the East (the Chinese science of feng-shui). These "straight" tracks, according to the literature, which is also replete with stories of dowsing and power points, seem to follow great circles and often the major nodes are market by sacred spots, monuments, or even natural features. This literature goes back nearly a hundred years in the West, and thousands of years in the East. Fuller's dymaxion maps of the world are particular interest to persons interested in ley lines because long lines (great circles) are relatively straight on his map, and his map alone. (An example of a long straight track is the great circle that can be traced from the Great Pyramid at Giza and crosses Europe near the Pyrenees, then passes through Boston, New Haven, New York City, Princeton, Philadelphia, New Castle (Delaware), Baltimore, Washington, New Orleans, and the Pyramid at Teohuanatl (Sp?) near Mexico City. There is a some material from the fringe literature on Hollow Earth/Bermuda Triangle that shows the concordance between the location of vortex centers (Bermuda and the Devil's Sea near Japan) and the twelve vertices of a tetrahedron. Although the connection may only be coincidental, some of this material predates Fuller's studies of great circles in relation to the vertices of the icosahedron and vector equilibrium. All I can say is that there may be a kernal of truth in some of the fringe theories that might otherwise be dismissed without consideration. Fuller, during his lifetime, was quite careful to separate his geometry from any connection with the occult or mystical. --Kiyoshi Kuromiya Forwarded message begins here: > > Not to qualify my ideas but, this may seem a bit presumptuous, but hey I > guess if there are folk out there who state that Bucky chewed on the idea > that DNA and RNA were seeded from an extraplanetary source, my ideas > won't trundle to far into an unentertainable realm. Grab your copy of > Synergetics 2, flip to colour plate 30, at the back. Basic > disequilibrium, could those great circles and nodes of intersection be > macrocosmic nervous system, thus aiding the current Gaia hypothesis? It > seems that according to some scholars (Becker and Hagen, for two) believe > these to be the electromagnetic grid lines that cover the surface of this > organic spaceship Earth. It seems that at major crossing points there > tends to be either strange physical anomilies, such as the Burmuda > Triangle, or significant monuments like Stonehenge and the Great > Pyramids. I am curious if any one out there has heard anything about > this, or simply has some intuitive responses. I am attempting to compose > a theoretical map of this grid lines since the only people who seem to > have a complete copy are the military. (I could be wrong on this, I do > know that the military has a copy and has used it to build many of its > stratigical sites, however I do not know for sure no one else has it. I > have not found any other sources.) I know this reaks of a conspiratory > rat, and sounds as if I am jumping on the paranoid bandwagon, but > logically the circles are consistant. If I am wrong I would love some > tangible proof, If I am right I would love some tangible proof. I just > seek some good old fashioned negentropy. > > Valor > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 12:32:14 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: dymaxion maps vs. gridlines In-Reply-To: <199502111953.LAA20375@mail.netcom.com> from "Kiyoshi Kuromiya" at Feb 11, 95 02:42:20 pm the latest issue of science news has an article about lines of force of some kind that "aim" incoming asteroids at certain places on the earth. jan 28, 1995, vol. 147, no. 4, pg. 58. on page 59 there are a couple maps with with circles that go through various impact sites. this seems potentially relevant, and science news is respectable, anyway. i hope this assists your research. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 11 Feb 1995 14:24:14 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nate Briggs Subject: the "Wichita" house returns i received today the latest issue of the Real Goods News, which contains an editorial by one J. Baldwin which discusses - at length - the Dymaxion house, both in its 1927 and 1946 versions he mentions that the 1946 "Wichita" house - which has been in storage at the Henry Ford/Greenfield Village museum in Dearborn MI - is now being restored for display this summer - in conjunction with the centennial i assume to my mind, this design is one of the great "what-ifs" of postwar American design what if this house had become the norm? what if fuller's dream of manufactured housing - purchaseable on the same terms as an automobile - had come true? what would our culture be like now? - nate briggs ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 00:03:18 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: _Kevin Sahr Organization: Oregon State University, Corvallis, Oregon Subject: Re: Soccer Ball (was: no subject given) In article , Greg Marks wrote: >I have several questions. I'm new to this list, so pardon me if I'm into >something obvious or familiar. > >Is there a better name than "truncated tetrahedron" for the very special >spherical configuration of 12 pentagons and 20 hexagons used in soccer balls, >geodesic domes, and fullerene chemicals? A soccer ball is a truncated icosahedron, not tetrahedron. Can't answer your other questions, though... Kevin -- //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // // // Kevin Sahr // // Research Associate/Programmer Wilkinson Hall, Room 204 // ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:54:50 -0500 Reply-To: Rjbono Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rjbono Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: GNU DOME software update I have released version 2.18 of my DOME software. The following enhancements have been added since the initial release: Added command-line support, POV-ray script output, an ascii output suitable for import into spreadsheets and several sample images generated by DOME and POV-ray. The executables have been compiled using Borland C++ 3.1 and will now run on any IBM PC class DOS machine (some may have had problems with the first release...I apologize for the inconvienece). Kirby Urner has provided storage space for the program on his syneregtics Web site. Those with web access can get to the dome page with: //www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/rb_gall.html The program is also available via FTP from ftp.teleport.com/pub/users/pdx4d/bin/dome218.zip The program includes the Borland C++ source and are copyrighted under the terms of the FSF general public license. BTW those who haven't visted Kirby's web site lately should! Lots of good info there! Hope you all enjoy the program and I look forward to hearing your comments and suggestions. Rick "Those aren't faults there features" Bono ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 14:18:29 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Wow Cool Subject: Re: the "Wichita" house returns In-Reply-To: ; from "Nate Briggs" at Feb 11, 95 2:24 pm > > what if this house had become the norm? what if fuller's dream of > manufactured housing - purchaseable on the same terms as an > automobile - had come true? what would our culture be like now? > I hate to break it to you Nate... First of all, although I've never actually been in a Dymaxion house, let alone lived in one, they always struck me as extremelly impracticle live/work spaces that are also impressively unatractive. Airstream trailers, on the other hand are charming to look at, practically organized for interior space and are directly portable - intact. Despite the gruesome 70's aesthetic the mobile home contains many of the virtues that Fuller proposed. And not only are they purchased on the same terms as the automobile but some of them are themselves mobile or can at least be hooked to something that is (thus the name) Nate, I don't know how familiar you are with modern building practices but many homes are built out of pre-fabricated parts and assembled quickly on-sight (in a day to a week, generally) and are paid for in installments, with interest. Your post suggests that there is something great about purchasing on credit; and that somehow this standard of American life is not the reality it is. Um... well. What all the above lacks is that which (I perceive to be) is the heart of Fuller's life work. His 50 year plan was to figure out the best possible use of the world's resources and to distribute them evenly as was appropriate. If his Dymaxion house plan was the ideal solution then it seems he would have continued with it. If you want to see what the world would be like under those conditions, then just look around. Marc Arsenault ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 17:47:05 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Steve Wenzel Subject: Darwin.. Karl Erickson: >i'm unfamiliar with Margulis, though. >could you paraphrase his central ideas? Sorry, I stuck two last names together. They're James Lovelock and Lynn Margulis. You probably already know Lovelock. ( James Lovelock, while assisting in the design of life-detection strategies for space probes at NASA, conceived that the Earth is actively maintained and regulated by life. His thinking developed into the proposition that there is not 'life on earth', but that the earth itself is alive. You might look for his 1988 book, The Ages of Gaia, where he describes the interaction of internal geologic processes, oceanic chemistry, atmosphere, and terrestrial conditions through the Archaen, Proterozoic, and modern times, and defines mechanisms of homeostasis that keep the climate and chemistry expressly beneficial for life. ) Lynn Margulis is a microbiologist whose work on the evolution of bacterial life forms and the influence of the appearance of oxygen in the early atmosphere play an important role in Lovelock's thinking. She has written the book, Early Life. Steve Wenzel ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 15:25:36 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nate Briggs Subject: no, i'm not a banker ok . . . ok . . . now i understand marc a.'s rather critical post bothered me until i realized we're not on the same wavelength - and it's my responsibility for having been too vague by "purchaseable on the same terms as an automobile" i was referring to the length of time of the loan: three to five years, instead of the current twenty to thirty years we all know how much financial institutions make on the mortgage traffic to partially follow-up my own question: what would happen if this tremendous river of mortgage money didn't exist? would landlording be a viable economic strategy if everyone who could afford a car could afford a house? as far as the liveability of the Dymaxion house - i've never been in one either. but i have been in an airstream. and i have been in a mobile home. so if i make it to Dearborn this summer i will have a basis for comparison - nate"not affiliated with the banking industry" briggs ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 18:11:00 CDT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Leslie Perelman Subject: Re: Darwin d ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 16:47:46 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Darwin.. In-Reply-To: <199502122252.OAA02351@mail2.netcom.com> from "Steve Wenzel" at Feb 12, 95 05:47:05 pm > Lynn Margulis is a microbiologist whose work on the evolution of bacterial > life forms > and the influence of the appearance of oxygen in the early atmosphere play an > important role in Lovelock's thinking. She has written the book, Early Life. > > Steve Wenzel > thanks for the explication. i had heard of lovelock's gaia hypothosis, but haven't read any of the technical details such as that of margulis. i'd always taken the gaia principle for granted. after all, a human is alive, and yet is composed entirely of nonliving atoms. there is, really, no clear distinction between life and nonlife. it is all a matter of depth of complexity and perspective. "life on earth" seems restricted to the thin surface layer, but i have no problem seeing the insides as a vast skeleton. universe, being gestalt, would be the upper limiting case of such "alive". i guess those who balk at the gaia hypothesis do so because of an imaginative tendancy it might bring about to equate a gaia-being with a human-being. does gaia have a mind? many billions of them, actually. internet, for example, is a significant evolutionary step in the complexification of her "nervous system". but we cannot "talk to gaia" on the same terms we talk to one another. better, we must consider ordinary, everyday human communication to be inherently "talking to gaia". the gaia hypothesis is a perspective in the same club with holism, synergetics, etc. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 04:09:51 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Ints Plampe Organization: Government of Ontario Subject: Re: dymaxion maps vs. gridlines In Kiyoshi Kuromiya writes: >Valor-- > I don't want to drift too much into the heady world of "borderland science." >But, there is a whole literature on geomancy--what are called "old straight >tracks" or "ley lines" in the West, or "dragon trails" in the East (the >Chinese science of feng-shui). These "straight" tracks, according to the >literature, which is also replete with stories of dowsing and power points, >seem to follow great circles and often the major nodes are market by sacred >spots, monuments, or even natural features. This literature goes back nearly >a hundred years in the West, and thousands of years in the East. .........rest deleted >--Kiyoshi Kuromiya The above brings to mind a reference to the Sanderson Points. Can anyone supply sources where the Sanderson Points are discussed? Ints Plampe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 20:38:21 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: TENSEGRITY One of the best sources of info about tensegrity structures is Hugh Kenner's book 'Geodesic Math and How to Use It', especially pages 3-44. I plan to post a more detailed list of references in a few days. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 12 Feb 1995 22:27:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Wow Cool Subject: Ah now I get it. In-Reply-To: ; from "Nate Briggs" at Feb 12, 95 3:25 pm Nate. Thanks for the followup. Yeah that would be a good scenario. Housing just isn't what it could be. I've lived in too many places (NYC, SF) where the amounts for rent/property are absurd. The homelessness situation is equally criminal. Hmmm You have to wonder. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:10:58 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: the "Wichita" house returns (A point-by-point "rebuttal" of sorts, offered in a good-natured tone...) >First of all, although I've never actually been in a Dymaxion house, let >alone lived in one, they always struck me as extremelly impracticle >live/work spaces that are also impressively unatractive. What do you want for a house designed by >>>ANY<<< engineer? Grace? Elegance? Larua Ashley interiors? I don't wanna live like "George Jetson" either, but Bucky's basic concept would have been refined and (most likely) market tested to death in a real-world commercial marketplace, resulting in something more "homey". Compare the interior of any current-model corporate jet with the interiors common in corporate jets of the late 70s/early 80s. The overall jets are smaller, but the passenger has more room, more choices of layouts, and better fit and finish. I wish the folks who did the jet interiors would remodel my office!!! We also could have kept Boeing, McDonnel-Douglas, et. al. busy with something that might have offered some stability in between contracts from the military-industrial complex. Remember, Bucky wanted to use the materials and tooling/processes of the aircraft industry to build the things. The reduction of layoffs at Boeing alone might have kept us from one or two drops in the economy... >Airstream trailers, on the other hand are charming to look at, >practically organized for interior space and are directly portable - intact. But have you tried to live in one for any extended period? I lived on a 42-foot sailboat for 5 years when I was single, and it forced many "choices" that were tough on me: - Books were limited by space - solved by "loaning" my entire library to friends with houses. - Cooking complex meals required the galley to take over the living room area. - Many processes were limited to the space available on deck. Since I was in Florida, rigging a tarp was all that was required, but privacy at the Bahia Mar slips was minimal... In general, the "airstream" concept is great, but only if one has taken a vow of poverty, and is very good at NOT collecting material possessions. The good news was that I could use a set of dory arms to hoist my MG from dockside onto the boat, make the car secure, cast off the lines, and be in the Atlantic in 10 min. The concept here was to winter in Florida and summer in Bar Harbor, Maine. Never got it worked out with my employers... >Despite the gruesome 70's aesthetic the mobile home contains many of the >virtues that Fuller proposed. If you listen carefully, you will hear Mr. and Mrs. Fuller BOTH slowly doing summersaults in their graves over that comment... >Nate, I don't know how familiar you are with modern building practices but >many homes are built out of pre-fabricated parts and assembled quickly >on-sight Hah! Very few in the US are built with components more complex than the 2x4, the brick, and the cinder-block. If you doubt me, go through the phone book and try to find a builder that has built ONE house with any of the following: stress-skin panels, all-weather-wood foundations, pre-stressed concrete floor modules... Overseas, where the cost of labor is a bigger factor, the concepts you address are used much more often. >(Comments about cost, money, financing...) A mortgage is a stupid idea, but I paid off my entire debt burden back in '84. The house was mine, the land was mine, I was FREEEEE. Yeah, sure. Still had to ante up property taxes, insurance... Worst of all, my beancounter explained how I had destroyed my tax position in one swell foop, and showed how "home ownership" was subsidized by "loan ownership" by the tax regulations. So I looked at the net present value of this and that, and set up an annuity to pay off a (small) mortgage on 20 acres of trees. One thing I learned from the process was that bankers can't read plat maps... >His 50 year plan was to figure out the best possible use of the world's >resources and to distribute them evenly as was appropriate. To the current "gang in possession", the above statement would smack of socialism, overthow of the government, and other nasties. Of course, the way things are going, I expect that we will all soon be sending these messages over the "InterNewt", with statements being censored-out in real time through the soon-to-be-announced "Clipper-Snipper" chip (it slices, it dices! It's a word processor! [it does to your words what your food processor does to your veggies]...) ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:11:03 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: dymaxion maps vs. gridlines Speaking of maps, has anyone noticed what the UN and a bunch of chruches have proposed in regards to maps? They (once again) want everyone to switch over to various versions of the Peters Projection (a map that ends up looking very elongated in the vertical direction). If you have never seen a Peters or Gall-Peters, or any of the other variants, check it out. You will then be mad enough to write to the editors of National Geographic, the American Congress on Surveying & Mapping, etc. Power points? Try alt.newage.crystal-headed.groupies.d They should know :} ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:11:06 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: TENSEGRITY (Geodesic Math and How To Use It) >One of the best sources of info about tensegrity structures is Hugh Kenner's >book 'Geodesic Math and How to Use It', especially pages 3-44. The book mentioned above is full of errors. Had a copy, trashed it. Worse than the "Domebook" series (Domebook I, Domebook II, Return To Planet Of The Domebook...)! OK for toys and models, but it should be titled "How To Kill People By Dropping Dome Roofs On Their Heads". As I recall, the first few chapters were a good conceptual introduction to the "art" for folks who don't own a sliderule, don't have their glasses held together with tape, and think one pen in their pocket is enough to get them through life... (Side question - was Bucky the prototype for the "nerd" stereotype?) But much of the math and tables are impossible to even build models with. I am angry at that book, 'cause a friend who SHOULD have known better (MS Physics, CalTech '74) based a design on that book, and the damn thing would not go together. I had to fly out to Santa Cruz and help out, and we ended up building an icosahedron, since he had pre-cut all the parts, and we had to work with what we had. He used the remainder on a 3-bedroom treehouse, 60 feet up, so all was not wasted. ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 12:17:39 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond Subject: Re: Manhattan Dome > Date: Fri, 10 Feb 1995 15:52:12 EST > From: "A Page in the Life of ..." > Subject: Manhattan Dome > >> The only reason I can see to dome over Manhattan would be to protect > >> the rest of the world from _the_sewer_that_never_sleeps_. > > > > Umm, snow, sleet, hail, rain and other precipitation comming in, and some > > way to perhaps filter or at least cut down on the exhume of human living > > (heat and CO2 are the inescapable ones ...) > > > Isn't that what we use houses, apartments, and offices for? I > don't see the logic in sheltering shelters. > > Yes, but unless you are planning to hibernate in yor house/apartment you > still have to deal with the incomming elements on a day to day basis. How [stuff deleted] > > 1) most people *don't* step outside except in the country (they go from > house/apartment to car to office and back, outside time maybe a few seconds > or even minutes) because the air in the city is BAD for you, and usually > the wrong temperature for you to be comfortable in. > > 2) what is the inherent benefit of "outside"? If you mean the exposure, > then most people would prefer to avoid it until they wanted to expose > themeslves (and after all that information about skin cancer and such, I > don't blame them) or if you mean for exercize or fresh air reasons, then > both of these would be improved by doming over the city, for the air > polution would be cut down, and there would be more space to exercize in > (assuming that people continue to take advantage of cubic now available > rather than surface) > [more stuff deleted] Please don't get me wrong - I agree that there are many benefits that could be reaped by erecting a dome over a city ------ butt - its just not for me. I drive almost 2hrs to the office just so I don't have to _live_ in the D.C. area. I prefer the country life. You speak of escaping the elements - I welcome them. You speak of people having to exercise outside - I prefer to exercise outside. As for heat - I would much rather sit and sweat than be sealed inside air conditioned environment. I get sick and tired of all the whiners in the world - in Summer, "its too hot" - in Winter, "its too cold". For crying out loud - its Nature - Live it, Love it. Build your sterile climate-controlled utopian urban environment. Heck, I would jump at the chance to help. But don't ask me to live there. I'll just leave the ant farms and bee hives to the bugs. [even more stuff deleted] > Unless our dome designers > are idiots, I would too imagine that conditions inside would be much > more favorable than those outdoors. Therefore the hardships to which > I infer that would _make_us_stronger_ are the elements of nature to > which we are subjected. > > So you wish to weed the gene pool based on economics? I don't think that > is a fair choice of stronger/weaker. > Weeding the gene pool? No. I'm talking about evolution. Economics? No. I talking about nature. Continued exposure to our environment is what allows us to adapt to that environment. And over a period of generations people could become immune to conditions which may have plagued their ancestors. *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "Remember: No success or failure is necessarily final" -- H.Hammond ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 15:11:42 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Manhattan Dome In-Reply-To: <199502131851.AA11031@charon.osc.on.ca> (message from Harry 'BadDog' Hammond on Mon, 13 Feb 1995 12:17:39 EST) > "H" == Hammond most correctly writes: H> Please don't get me wrong - I agree that there are many benefits H> that could be reaped by erecting a dome over a city ------ butt - H> its just not for me. I drive almost 2hrs to the office just so I H> don't have to _live_ in the D.C. area. I prefer the country H> life. You speak of escaping the elements - I welcome them. Given the description of the Old Man River project, I don't think Bucky wanted to air-condition New York. A dome of this size does not block the Outside from the Inside, but _valves_ it, and filters the large-scale events --- birds, sunlight and breezes flow through the dome, but gale winds &c are shunted. For Old Man River, Fuller described the lifestyle as "living in a garden" The outside environment must be valved (which is what cars, planes and homes do, as does the Ozone layer and Van Allen's belts) The question is only how much attenuation and at what frequency. To live in raw 'elements' we must leave the planet and stray outside the heliopause! If, however, we were to valve the atmosphere over a city to _attenuate_ winds, rain, snow &c, we can build homes with much less material and spend more of our time outside --- coming from Winnipeg and having lived in Ottawa, I can see real value in that! The idea is not to create a seperate, sealed biosphere. The goal is to modify the environment to be relatively more like the pre-historic tropical lands we all left behind. We can still fly kites, ski, walk in the rain and work on our tan while gleefully leaving behind having to tape windows from hurricanes, chip ice from windsheilds, sump-pumping flood waters and the smearing ourselves with zinc. Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 ------------------------------- What would you do with an extra hour? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:41:01 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: dymaxion maps vs. gridlines (fwd) In Message Sat, 11 Feb 1995 07:35:40 EST, Elias Tabello writes: >> ...there are folk out there who state that Bucky chewed on the idea >> that DNA and RNA were seeded from an extraplanetary source... > >Food for thought: Remember when some comet hit jupiter, just recently. >Does anybody remember what It looked like? My memory of it resonates >with the idea of egg and sperm. The size proportions seem to be right >on. Maybe it was a cosmic spark of life. > i would like to add few random thought . have you seen the photo of planet earth in one of the last scientific america . now ofyou use the word in the stairs to go to the second floor and in stairs to go in the ground floor you will realize how minute we are .+ + just correctin a senario. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:22:36 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: entropy >neccessary balancing penalty for breaking the laws of physics. > >what other views of entropy (or elaborations of fuller's views) >have others pondered? comments actively sought. i think that there more entropy in information that is in the heads of everyone than there is in the phiscial process , and perhaps it is the cause of much physical ineffeciency. i would add somthing outside the subject ,by saying that an approach to comprehansive thinking would be decressing the entropic process . this last statment is risky . but i just say it anyway. one aproach , and i will have more to say latter, is to get a descipline by the neck by going to its main focoul vertexes ,(i would not use the tree of knowldge ) < there is a design of an indian city i think navho) which i saw in a book which was beautiful . based on a circle and outside the circle was some branches where houses wher built) this circle or parabollacould be one model of comprehansive education) instead of linear classification. take for example physics i would consider relativity energy angular momentum inirtia acceleration quantum mechanics general and particls orbital acceleration to be the focol points of this subject. morespeculation: considering the atom to be 10 to 10 of a meter which is quite small . the working of victor equilbrum is on that level. fuler suggestes that is the principle of order in the universe.... when he says entropy is negetive tetrahedron . and i am not pretending to understand this just a suggestion , he means that missing 4 idea that can give more information to the mind and therefor about universe to lightend an area of ignorance. invformation ,enviromtation just crosse words . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 18:17:08 -0500 Reply-To: Rjbono Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rjbono Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: TENSEGRITY (Geodesic Math and How To Use It) I have been using Kenner's Geodesic math book as a basis of a dome design program. There are quite a few errors in the notation and some of the tables. The formulae given, and the method outlined to calculate them do work. The data given is by no means ready to go out and buy a bunch of 2x4's and start construction. That is left to the builder to figure out. The precision required to build even a modest dome is not easily accomplished using common tools and materials (something Bucky contiunously commented on i.e. the need for the best "space-age" materials and machine tools). Anyway, I hope to cut through some of the books errors and distill that which does work into my program. Rick "Just my Two-cents" Bono ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 13 Feb 1995 18:31:17 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Consoletti Subject: Re: Manhattan Dome In-Reply-To: <9502140127.AA12995@mx5.u.washington.edu> re: If you read "How Nature Works" by Michael Cohen published by World Peace University he mentions that humanity is a tropic maker. consequently we spend most of our time indoors. Michael Cohen has lived in a tent since 1959 he teaches in an outwood bound way to help people see the synergy that is around. He was the former president of the Audobon society. As what was her name Cyndie Loper(sp)? the musician said" I am waiting for a change of heart" This is the long and the short of it. later nicku On Mon, 13 Feb 1995, Gary Lawrence Murphy wrote: > > "H" == Hammond most correctly writes: > > H> Please don't get me wrong - I agree that there are many benefits > H> that could be reaped by erecting a dome over a city ------ butt - > > H> its just not for me. I drive almost 2hrs to the office just so I > H> don't have to _live_ in the D.C. area. I prefer the country > H> life. You speak of escaping the elements - I welcome them. > > Given the description of the Old Man River project, I don't think > Bucky wanted to air-condition New York. A dome of this size does not > block the Outside from the Inside, but _valves_ it, and filters the > large-scale events --- birds, sunlight and breezes flow through the > dome, but gale winds &c are shunted. For Old Man River, Fuller > described the lifestyle as "living in a garden" > > The outside environment must be valved (which is what cars, planes and > homes do, as does the Ozone layer and Van Allen's belts) The > question is only how much attenuation and at what frequency. To live > in raw 'elements' we must leave the planet and stray outside the > heliopause! > > If, however, we were to valve the atmosphere over a city to > _attenuate_ winds, rain, snow &c, we can build homes with much less > material and spend more of our time outside --- coming from Winnipeg > and having lived in Ottawa, I can see real value in that! The idea is > not to create a seperate, sealed biosphere. The goal is to modify the > environment to be relatively more like the pre-historic tropical lands > we all left behind. We can still fly kites, ski, walk in the rain and > work on our tan while gleefully leaving behind having to tape windows > from hurricanes, chip ice from windsheilds, sump-pumping flood waters > and the smearing ourselves with zinc. > > > > Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca > Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html > Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 > Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 > ------------------------------- What would you do with an extra hour? > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 01:42:55 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Walt Lockley Subject: Dome unnatural act On the Manhattan dome being somehow unnatural: Winter in New York should be optional. The natural hardships of winter and summer kill some people outright, damange a lot of other people, and helps to destroy & corrode the urban infrastructure every year. It's unpredictable and mean. Why not do something about it? Harry says that he wouldn't want to live in a sterile climate-controlled utopian urban ant-hill. He prefers country living. I would too -- but I don't imagine that he sleeps, naked in the dirt, without tools of any kind, in perfectly 'natural' conditions. so is country living unnatural too? Natural is one of my favoriate words, because it's so slippery. It's all connotation, all belief, 100% cultural content. It's a guilty word. People use it as shorthand for 'something-that-Mankind-hasn't-screwed-up.' Some of us seem to have gotten the idea that the natural world is always beneficient and great, because we often have the luxury of picking and choosing the bits of nature we like, leaving the rest. Aspen leaves, spring rains, fractal geometry, the order of ecological balance -- yeah! we'll take those. Forgetting rotted teeth, blunt-object politics, bubonic plague, & illiteracy. To dismiss the notion of a New York dome because it's not natural is to forget that midtown Manhattan is hardly old-growth forest. Is it natural to separate New Yorkers from direct sunlight and fresh air? Too damn late. NYC has its own artifical climate already in the form of an abnormally warm, rain-attracting, air-polluted atmospheric heat island. I don't know if Manhattan is good or bad, but there it is, and a dome would (probably) make it more efficien and marginally less of a burden on the rest of the planet. In a curious way I guess we've come around to the same sort of technology vs. nature argument we saw when the Back-to-Earthers tried to adopt the geodesic dome. Only to find they couldn't weave one out of birch twigs in an afternoon. So there, Harry! Hope you weren't too cold last night! ;) Walt klockley@delphi.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:29:44 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Dome unnatural act In-Reply-To: ; from "Walt Lockley" at Feb 14, 95 1:42 am One of the main reasons why Bucky proposed a large dome covering hundreds of skyscrapers was to reduce the surface area exposed to the outside elements by 90%, thereby reducing the energy required to heat and cool that area of a city by 90%. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:31:55 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: TENSEGRITY LIST TENSEGRITY REFERENCES D_A_T_E T_I_T_L_E__O_F__B_O_O_K_/_A_R_T_I_C_L_E AUTHOR P___A___G___E___S - -60 04-01-61 "Tensegrity" Portfolio & Art News Annual RBF 112-27,144,146,148 11-13-62 "Tensegrity" patent Fuller 17 pages - -63 World Design Science Decade doc 2 Fuller 33-55 - -64 02-__-65 "Discontinuous Compression Structures" patent Snelson __ pages 03-17-65 "Octa Spinner" patent Fuller 25 pages - -66 11-28-67 "Star Tensegrity (Octahedra Truss)" patent Fuller 10 pages - -68 - -69 - -70 - -71 - -72 - -73 Dymaxion World of Buckminster Fuller Marks/RBF 57-60,164-9,201,235 - -73 Dome Builder's Handbook Prenis 19-20 - -74 - -75 Synergetics Fuller 369-431 - -75 Dome Notes Hjersman 71-88 02-18-75 "Non-Symetrical Tensegrity" patent Fuller 08 pages - -76 Geodesic Math and How to Use It Kenner 01-44 - -76 An Introduction to Tensegrity Pugh 122 pages - -77 - -78 - -79 Synergetics II Fuller 163-186 06-17-80 "Tensegrity Truss" patent Kitrick ___ pages - -81 - -82 10-01-83 Inventions Fuller 178-93,241-55,274-80,286-93 - -84 - -85 - -86 - -87 A Fuller Explanation Edmondson 243-257 - -88 - -89 - -90 - -91 - -92 - -93 - -94 - -95 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 12:34:43 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Darwin.. >internet, for example, is a significant evolutionary >step in the complexification of her "nervous system". >the gaia hypothesis is a perspective in the same club with holism, >synergetics, etc. On a similar note, I've called the entire "electronic hive" we've been weaving since who-knows-when, internet etc (really, "all consciousness linked together in some network") "Indranet," after discovering the Hindu deity "Net of Indra," being a vast net that catches all consciousness. m ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 14:04:58 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry 'BadDog' Hammond Subject: Re: modern building practices > > >Nate, I don't know how familiar you are with modern building practices but > >many homes are built out of pre-fabricated parts and assembled quickly > >on-sight > > Hah! Very few in the US are built with components more complex than > the 2x4, the brick, and the cinder-block. Wo-now. Actually the majority of new home structures in the U.S. are erected from component parts. Many come in only four parts. Part I, the foundation is built. Part II, the left side of the house brought in and placed on the foundation. Part III, the right side in added in the same fashion. And finally, Part IV, the roof arrives and is hoisted up on top. A few major bolts hold it all together. Now wait a minute - the interior is not done yet - but it is shelter from the storm, windows, doors, and all. Now granted, they're not using the same components you spoke of but they are using pre-fabricated components assembled together on the lot. *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "Remember: No success or failure is necessarily final" -- H.Hammond ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 15:51:29 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry Hammond Subject: NYC Dome - O.K. I know I've helped to drag this Manhattan Dome issue out quite a bit, but it has really been enlightening for me. Thanks to M.Stutz, W.Lockley, N.Consoletti, G.Murphy, E.Tabello, K.Ericson (I appologize if I left anyone out) for helping to answer my original question: "Why would you want to dome-up a city anyway?" Cubic is where its at. Keep on building up and not out. And maybe Uncle Sam won't take my land. Cold and cozy - "dirty" Harry :) *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "Remember: No success or failure is necessarily final" -- H.Hammond ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 07:01:30 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: modern building practices >Wo-now. Actually the majority of new home structures in the U.S. are >erected from component parts. Many come in only four parts.... (details deleted for brevity) >Now granted, they're not using the same components you spoke of but >they are using pre-fabricated components assembled together on the >lot. I will call the American Plywood Council and ask them what their take is on "the majority" issue. My impression is at odds with yours. Yes, the homes described above exist. One of the guys in this business is 15 miles from me: "Mod-U-Kraft Homes", of Boones Mill, VA. They sell their products ONLY through dealer/assembers, who will be happy to do some minor customization, like punch a hole to put in a bay window or two, and take a 35% markup on what could be a simple turn-key owner-builder kit. There are some nice high-end products in this line, but for $100K+, why bother with the infexible designs of these guys? Their middle of the road product has all the charm of a single-wide trailer, and they have no low-end products. I talked with these guys back in 1988 on behalf of a friend who liked the short leadtime. My friend wanted to "open up" the floorplan a bit. Their idea of a "maximum span" was 12' to 14'. Yep, the same [insert favorite blue streak here] claustrophobic room sizes that one gets with a trailer. The wonders of Microlaminated beams never made it to this guy's shop. I guess I should be happy that he knew about BOCA regs. I know that jigs and factory conditions allow the product to be QAed to a higher level than stick-built. BUT THIS SIMPLY MOVED THE PROCESS OF NAILING TO A PLACE WHERE I CAN'T INSPECT THE QUALITY MYSELF! This is still a stick built home, and the basic component is a 2 x 4. Worse yet, the design, the materials, and the craftsmanship is reduced to the lowest common denominator in every possible way, as has been done with trailers, AND CANNOT BE CHANGED. These guys to GREAT instant motels, I will give them that. But I WANT motels to all be the same, so if I wake up at 2:00am, I can find the bathroom in my sleep. If this process was a better value, you would have seen Habitat For Humanity adopt this process in a heartbeat. ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 07:01:34 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: NYC Dome - >"Why would you want to dome-up a city anyway?" >Cubic is where its at. Keep on building up and not out. An attempt at a definition or two based upon the thread as a whole... (Don't flame me, I am just having fun - try it yourself...) DOME - A structure that is either all wall or all roof, but either way, both tend to leak all over your furniture that will not fit in the rooms with all the curved walls. CUBIC BUILDING - A structure where we know all too well where the wall meets the roof, but in too many cases, they part company for one reason or another, thus crushing whatever is below, in addition to leaking all over your furniture that would not fit into the limited space available... A FRAME - See "DOME" and "CUBIC BUILDING". All of the drawbacks of both, and none of the advantages of either. DOMED CITY - Derived from the earlier terms "doomed city" and "doomsday". That's right kids - can't wait for global warming? Order your Domed City kit, and experience the greenhouse effect in a real greenhouse!...Be the first on your block to pay city water rates for every drop of water you put on your garden! Call now and get a free copy of the ground-breaking early european list of everything that you can fit under your Domed City - _The Domesday Book_! ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 10:53:33 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: Re: NYC Dome - In-Reply-To: <9502151506.AA13118@agora.carleton.ca>; from "jfischer" at Feb 15, 95 7:01 am jfischer writes: > (Don't flame me, I am just having fun - try it yourself...) Are you asking for it or what? > DOMED CITY - Derived from the earlier terms "doomed city" and "doomsday". > That's right kids - can't wait for global warming? Order > your Domed City kit, and experience the greenhouse effect > in a real greenhouse!...Be the first on your block to Think for a second. Global warming and adverse environmental conditions have nothing to do with Domed over cities. Domed over cities would be syntropic foci in an otherwise wildly entropic landscape of rampant American Dreaming. Wear a pin that says "I love suburban sprawl!". Support all efforts in your community to "Pave the Earth". Meanwhile we can only wonder: What will happen if we DONT create cities like the Old Man River City(a city dome from scratch, unlike doming over portions of NYC). etabello@chat.carleton.ca I am waiting for Alice in Wonderland to retransmit to me her total dream of innocence ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 11:23:25 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: Gestation Rates:City Domes Wholesale desire for city dome living will only come when there is a change in consciousness in a significant portion of the population (critical mass). This change must be "spiritual" in nature, where more and more people identify with the natural processes that we are part of. This would mean thinking on a level greater than your own (ie:intead of How can I house myself most effectively and comfortably you'd think How can I house more and more people most effectivley and comfortably) as well as respect for our Earth while undertaking endeavours of any kind, no matter how profitable or fun. The type of consciousness i'm talking about is better described by RM Bucke. Has anyone ever read Cosmic Consciouness by Richard Maurice Bucke. It was written aroud 1900. At that time, he felt that upcoming social, political and psychic evolutions would occur with THE ADVENT OF ARIEL NAVIGATION. When I read this I immediately thought about sattelites that were capable of transmitting thoughts and other information around the world in seconds. I'm being cut off... etabello@chat.carleton.ca we saw shadows of the morning light shadows of the evening sun till the shadows and the light were one ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 11:23:55 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Critical Path > Does the unexpected ending of the Cold War count as the beginning of the >design science revolution? I think it signals something, but I will leave >the conclusions to you after you have read further into Critical Path. Sure, I think it signals something. What I'd been sort of expecting after reading the beginnings of _Critical Path_ wasn't so much an event but rather something like "Okay people, this is the design science revolution..." -- you know, for whatever it was to be called by name & universally referred to as such: "This is the design science revolution." ... m ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 11:34:57 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Misc: Dodeca/Satori/_Wired_ Misc junk: + I wrote to _Wired_ about that "World's Most Accurate Map" article and they replied with "a piece on Buckminster Fuller is in the works." + A little while back someone (Joe?) posted the address of a Dodeca Corporation (a company that made photographic equipment), and wasn't sure if they were still around; I sent out a postcard and it came back return to sender the other day. + Can anyone verify that Satori Teas use a Dymaxion Map somewhere in their packaging? I didn't see it on a recent order, and (though I do seem to recall seeing it somewhere) I looked at an old box I had from like two years ago and it wasn't on there, either. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 09:42:32 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: PATENTS SEARCH RESULTS OF PATENT SEARCH: "GEODESIC" AND "BUCKMINSTER" For further info: http://town.hall.org/cgi-bin/srch-patent NUMBER T I T L E OF P A T E N T 5,274,980 Polyhedron building system having telescoping scissors 5,277,996 Fuel cell electrode and method for producing same 5,278,239 Anionically polymerized polymers coupled with fullerenes 5,281,406 Recovery of C.sub.60 & C.sub.70 buckminsterfullerenes from carbon 5,283,967 Multi-purpose display frame 5,288,342 Solid metal-carbon matrix of metallofullerites & method of forming 5,289,150 Method & apparatus for superconducting trapped-field energy storage 5,290,389 Fiber placement delivery system with modular cut/add actuators 5,291,567 Electro-optic waveguide deflector using a nonlinear optic film or 5,291,888 Head sensor positioning network 5,292,058 Package including an expandable top opening 5,294,732 Polysubstituted fullerenes and their preparation 5,302,681 Polymerization inhibition by fullerenes 5,303,695 Human free-flight launcher 5,305,564 Hemispherical dome building structure 5,305,576 Method of constructing curvilinear structures 5,308,076 Golf ball with polar region uninterrupted dimples 5,308,481 Chemically bound fullerenes to resin & silica supports & their use 5,308,669 Ceramically reinforced structural materials & method of making same 5,310,669 Fullerene coated surfaces and uses thereof 5,311,706 Inflatable truss frame 5,315,801 Triangulated frame supported flat cover 5,319,725 Bilithic composite for optoelectronic integration 5,319,896 Apparatus & method for securing building during high wind condition 5,325,227 Laser attenuation means 5,325,468 Operation planning system for robot 5,325,642 Geodesic hazardous waste containment building 5,325,646 Tank cover structure 5,327,512 Langmuir-Blodgett film in an integrated electro-optical scanner 5,329,737 Ceramic building block 5,331,779 Truss framing system for cluster multi-level housing 5,332,226 Golf ball 5,340,625 Layout & manufacturing method for fiber-reinforced composite shells 5,347,594 Method of image analysis 5,348,006 Head sensor positioning pedestal 5,348,052 Multi-layered translated rib-stiffened composite hollow cylinder 5,354,926 Fluoroalkylated fullerene compounds 5,359,684 Optical lensed coupler for use with a planar waveguide 5,361,212 Differential GPS landing assistance system 5,361,752 Retraction apparatus and methods for endoscopic surgery 5,367,051 Amine-containing polymerizable monomers & polymers functionalized 5,371,813 Wavelength division multiplexer suitable for integrated optical sys 5,372,450 Flexible joint connector 5,373,674 Prefabricated building panel 5,374,351 Filter backflushing system 5,376,353 Method for the production of H.sub.2 O.sub.2 using Fullerenes 5,377,460 Dome building 5,379,142 Demultiplexing apparatus & optical communication system using the 5,379,370 Method & apparatus for drawing lines, curves, & points coincident 5,379,557 Architectual panel system for geodesic-like structures 5,385,262 Vessel for storing fluid under pressure able to undergo rupture 5,386,048 Hydrosilylation of fullerenes 5,386,953 Spacecraft designs for satellite communication system -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 12:38:44 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: 4D House -- it's here Got the new _Wired_ (no. 3.03), and upon opening the back cover, my first reaction was, "Whoah -- that's the 4D House!" It's an add for Kohler (the bathroom furniture people) with a photograph by Brett Froomer, "Life in the Fast Lane." It looks kinda like the inside of the 4D House models from _Inventions_. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 15:25:06 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Robert L. Read" Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin Subject: Re: modern building practices Harry, I would like to know where you heard or read that a majority of new houses are constructed as you suggest, from wall/roof sized components. They are not in Edinburg, Texas. -- Robert L. Read, Member of the League for Programming Freedom ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 17:05:37 -0600 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Robert Domaingue Subject: Re: PATENTS SEARCH In-Reply-To: <199502151919.NAA29316@grunt.ksu.ksu.edu> Joe you made me very curious. What is patent 5,303,695 : Human free-flight launcher? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 19:33:56 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: NYC Dome - >Wear a pin that says "I love suburban sprawl!". >Support all efforts in your community to "Pave the Earth". Pave it, roof it over, what's the difference between the two? Both are a bad use of time, talent and money, given the fact that what we should be doing is putting the houses under earth-berms, and growing things where we currently have roofs. I think a big roof would be a big mistake. This does not mean that I don't care about the planet. I hate urban sprawl - that's why my closest neighbor is 2 miles away (via a slightly more earth-friendly gravel road) and nearly 1000 feet lower down the mountain. I bought a cut-over parcel of land that had a bad case of soil erosion, and have slowly brought it back to life. My 30 acres is more "natural" than when I arrived. It can sustain itself, and I live without messing it up. I compost on a 3-ton basis with a 60-day cycle time in the summer, so I _add_ value to the land rather than subtract. When my wife and I die, YOU inherit my land, and can enjoy it as you will. The park rangers will take over when I am gone, and the forest service will never be able to lease the logging rights, cause that stays so locked up in legal conditions that only the Pope using a swiss army knife will be allowed to "log". ...I guess I had better add a "no mega-dome" clause to the easements to make sure nobody builds a dome over the whole mountain and turns the microclimate into a "managed environment"... ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 22:33:37 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nick Consoletti Subject: Re: Gestation Rates:City Domes In-Reply-To: <9502160031.AA12072@mx5.u.washington.edu> Re: About Bucke's "Cosmic Consciousness" for its time great book see "Beautiful Dreamers" A movie RIP Thorn Plays Walt Whitman who takes on the behaviorists as journalists and i don't mean the to have and to be type behavioralists This was a moving movie about Buckes encounter with Walt Whi tman Too pass a way from sentimentality into the notion of what to hold of whats told these days It is interesting that the likes of Francis Crick in "The Astonishing Hypothesis" are open to breaking the ice on this consciousness question and he even uses the word soul in this book. even if they are still a little to reductioonist for anyones good maybe spinoff will lea d to geometrical progression towards some understanding beyond just the skeleton in the closet at the ivory tower. later Nicku On Wed, 15 Feb 1995, Elias Tabello wrote: > Wholesale desire for city dome living will only come when there is > a change in consciousness in a significant portion of the population > (critical mass). This change must be "spiritual" in nature, where > more and more people identify with the natural processes that we are part of. > This would mean thinking on a level greater than your own (ie:intead of > How can I house myself most effectively and comfortably you'd think How can > I house more and more people most effectivley and comfortably) as well > as respect for our Earth while undertaking endeavours of any kind, no > matter how profitable or fun. > > The type of consciousness i'm talking about is better described by RM > Bucke. Has anyone ever read Cosmic Consciouness by Richard Maurice > Bucke. It was written aroud 1900. At that time, he felt that > upcoming social, political and psychic evolutions would occur with THE > ADVENT OF ARIEL NAVIGATION. When I read this I immediately thought > about sattelites that were capable of transmitting thoughts and > other information around the world in seconds. > I'm being cut off... > > > etabello@chat.carleton.ca > > we saw shadows of the morning light > shadows of the evening sun > till the shadows > and the light were one > m ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 07:56:22 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Critical Path Michael Stutz (stutz@RS6000.BALDWINW.EDU) wrote: > > Does the unexpected ending of the Cold War count as the beginning of the > >design science revolution? I think it signals something, but I will leave > >the conclusions to you after you have read further into Critical Path. > Sure, I think it signals something. What I'd been sort of expecting after > reading the beginnings of _Critical Path_ wasn't so much an event but > rather something like "Okay people, this is the design science revolution..." > -- you know, for whatever it was to be called by name & universally referred > to as such: "This is the design science revolution." ... Absolutely not. I always thought the DSR would be invisible to everyone - except those tuned into the invisible changes taking place. Perhaps even history will "miss" the DSR. I think when you explicitly call something a "revolution", it gets tangled up in politics. The invisible revolution is noncoercive and hence is the only way to go, IMHO. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:07:03 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "Christopher J. Fearnley" Subject: An Idea for a Bucky chat session - Fun or Foolhardy? X-To: synergetics-l@teleport.com In-Reply-To: <39170.tagdi@ruulch.let.ruu.nl> from "mohamed tagdi" at Feb 16, 95 10:52:46 am 'mohamed tagdi wrote:' > >have anybody thought about the clarity of the group communicating as >a whole , it seems to me that there are people by there intonation >trying to reach particular persons in the net , i feel it is not democratic >not that i want any answer for my mail i post .but the intention to make >it clear or helpful to participant is not there.besides computer language >is metallic , new person looking at the content will see incomprehensive >chat. OK, how many people have access to ytalk or similar? Or maybe an IRC channel on Bucky once per week? Let's try it once for experimental sake, say Saturday, February 18th at 11pm EST (USA). We could all gather with ytalk or set up an IRC channel. Who's game? Maybe every Sat. at 11pm EST? What's the best time for a global Bucky chat session. Sorry, for opening this can of worms, but it sounds like fun to me! -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:02:32 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Critical Path >Absolutely not. I always thought the DSR would be invisible to >everyone - except those tuned into the invisible changes taking place. >Perhaps even history will "miss" the DSR. I think when you explicitly >call something a "revolution", it gets tangled up in politics. The >invisible revolution is noncoercive and hence is the only way to go, >IMHO. If you're right then this is probably part of what Fuller was talking about when he said he was "apolitical," huh? You know what this reminds me of? Vernor Vinge wrote a short story (yikes name eludes me but its in _True Names and other dangers_ which is great sf reading and I loathe science fiction) about Singularity (all human consciousnesses mind-to-mind connected) being achieved "within a few hours" -- it was a total surprise to everyone. m true leaders gone, of land and people. we chose no kin but adopted strangers. the family weakens by the lengths we travel ... all of us with wings ... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 12:41:30 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: Re: An Idea for a Bucky chat session - Fun or Foolhardy? In Message Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:07:03 -0500, "Christopher J. Fearnley" writes: >'mohamed tagdi wrote:' >> >>have anybody thought about the clarity of the group communicating as >>a whole , it seems to me that there are people by there intonation >>trying to reach particular persons in the net , i feel it is not democratic >>not that i want any answer for my mail i post .but the intention to make >>it clear or helpful to participant is not there.besides computer language >>is metallic , new person looking at the content will see incomprehensive >>chat. > >OK, how many people have access to ytalk or similar? Or maybe an IRC >channel on Bucky once per week? Let's try it once for experimental >sake, say Saturday, February 18th at 11pm EST (USA). We could all >gather with ytalk or set up an IRC channel. Who's game? Maybe every >Sat. at 11pm EST? What's the best time for a global Bucky chat >session. Sorry, for opening this can of worms, but it sounds like fun >to me! even though i have university acess and not mine email, try and see if it works. may be the people get to know each others better. they can learn from each other. but all i am saying is that when a person want to discuss a subject should adress it to every one . i take the communication purpose is to help those who do not have delicacy of mind as others have . how about a format for the discussion . when a new subject inter the discussion it should 2 or 3 weeks to go into it in depth. that also give some time for a person to read a book . few chpters and check an encyclopidia . so as to get more informed . i made a scheme for comprhensive study which take 1year and half. i try to send it another time. in this schem one subject studied at one time for 1 month to 2 months. that is the main course you might say. meanwhile the person invistigate synergatics in small shunkes, also physics chimestry or other sciences . let me try to be clear . i have the plan to read the main subject in the mornning let us say and the by subject in the night . or one day this and one day that . with all of this i can also follow the particular 2 or 3 subjects of the discussion and read few things so one can go in depth . that can be doen only if the subjects of discussion were limited. this just one idea may be i am off but by communicating , i might come to realize my rong thinking. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 06:33:13 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: Critical Path In-Reply-To: <199502161324.FAA00806@mail3.netcom.com> from "Michael Stutz" at Feb 16, 95 05:02:32 am Michael Stutz: > If you're right then this is probably part of what Fuller was talking > about when he said he was "apolitical," huh? You know what this > reminds me of? Vernor Vinge wrote a short story (yikes name eludes me > but its in _True Names and other dangers_ which is great sf reading > and I loathe science fiction) about Singularity (all human > consciousnesses mind-to-mind connected) being achieved "within a few > hours" -- it was a total surprise to everyone. > > m my own "apoliticality" is in this sense. i assume fuller's is the same. don't loathe science fiction! :) just loate bad sf (which is most of it). Vinge's "singularity" concept is a reletively new science-fictional device to explain why we have not yet been contacted by advanced extraterretrials (after all, _some_ planet has had zillions of years more than us to evolve in, surely). we haven't been contacted because the idea of progress leading to such long range exploration and communication is now, recently, considerable as being somewhat naive. long before the arrival of the unimaginable tech that would allow us to do that spontaneously, we will either be extinct or have developed technology that would put us over-the-edge into unimaginable territory _without_ the neccessity of space as a final frontier. we now recognize metaphysical _mind_ as the final frontier. and synergetics is a science of the mind: "explorations in the geometry of thinking". i haven't read the vinge story you refer to, but also do consult the excellent novel _Marooned in Realtime_, which is set after the singularity on earth which makes all but a handful of people vanish. the novel is set some millions of years in the future. the "singularity" meme resonates with me in the same place that synergetics does. i imagine the people to have vanished into an ultradense nanotech translation of themselves that allows pure thought at the speed of light. are they all babbling buckyspeak with photons? ;) . -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:45:35 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry are we there yet Hammond Subject: Re: Gestation Rates:City Domes > Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 11:23:25 EST > From: Elias Tabello > Wholesale desire for city dome living will only come when there is > a change in consciousness in a significant portion of the population > (critical mass). This change must be "spiritual" in nature, where > more and more people identify with the natural processes that we are part of. > This would mean thinking on a level greater than your own (ie:intead of > How can I house myself most effectively and comfortably you'd think How can > I house more and more people most effectivley and comfortably) as well > as respect for our Earth while undertaking endeavours of any kind, no > matter how profitable or fun. > unfortunately most people who care about mother earth don't seem to care that much for the housing situation and vice-versa. once again i see this relating to the immaturity of our species. when we finally grow up and adopt a form of democratic socialistic government we will be able to look at the whole instead of worrying about "number one" or "how much money i can make off this deal". *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "Remember: No success or failure is necessarily final" -- H.Hammond ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:30:20 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry Hammond Subject: Re: modern building practices > Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 15:25:06 -0600 > From: "Robert L. Read" > Harry, I would like to know where you heard or read that > a majority of new houses are constructed as you suggest, > from wall/roof sized components. They are not in Edinburg, Texas. > Well - what is in Texas? 75% of my friends and associates are in the construction business in one way or another. A few are custom builders. Each house is built from scratch on the lot, either as a pre-planned community or built to each owners specifications. But most of them work with major contractors in helping to established moderate to low income housing communities. Of course I can only speak for the Virginia, Maryland, D.C., and West Virginia area. However, this is a large area with a wealth of job opportunities and a standard of living that is the third highest in the country (last time I checked). Moderate to low income housing still makes up the majority of homes/townhomes built in this area. I can only speculate on the rest of the country, but I would imagine that these pre-fabricated homes are being erected elsewhere also. *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "Remember: No success or failure is necessarily final" -- H.Hammond ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 09:09:53 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: Re: format for discussion In-Reply-To: <199502161527.HAA23590@netcom6.netcom.com> from "mohamed tagdi" at Feb 16, 95 12:41:30 pm mohamed tagdi: > how about a format for the discussion . when a new subject inter the > discussion it should 2 or 3 weeks to go into it in depth. that also give > some time for a person to read a book . few chpters and check an > encyclopidia . so as to get more informed . ... > synergatics in small shunkes, also physics chimestry or other sciences ... > discussion and read few things so one can go in depth . that can be doen > only if the subjects of discussion were limited. this just one idea may > be i am off but by communicating , i might come to realize my rong thinking. i'm all for more structure, but i think the forum should evolve by the spontaneous actions of each of us. someone proposes a method for increasing the bandwidth of discovery, and if it is a good method, it will spontaneously be adopted. there can be parallel threads. if the discussion in one is going strong but is too complex, questions will open up a concurrent thread that will elaborate. threads can be started that intentionally take the stuff slowly. a good way would be to choose a synergetics section that you've been pondering, and to say something about it here, or ask questions about it. other references that are applicable, within fuller's opus or in other places (encyclopedias, books, internet resources, magazine articles, etc.) can be mentioned as well. as the resources are studied, questions pertaining to new sources can be brought up as well. each of us will take it as slowly as we like or have the time for. for those that are already familiar with the basics of bucky's philosophy, however, there is progress to be made on fronts that are perhaps somewhat oblique for the new user. this gap of familiarity with the knowledge is intended to shrink as we each help each other learn more. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:05:54 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Cook Subject: Re: Patents Anyone? Joe-- Thanks for your posting on RBF patents. How did you do your search? I received U.S. patent 4,974,986--Connector For Variable-Shape Spaceframe Structural System-- in 1990, for which I did all my own patent research in West Berlin where I had access to most international patents as well as U.S. patents. I would like to know if U.S. patent searching is now available online and whether U.S. patent abstracts, drawings, and text are also available online. How could I get copies of any of the patents you listed? Thanks, again. Bob Cook (former World-Gamer) Development Center for Appropriate Technology P.O. Box 41144 Tucson AZ 85717 bcook@pimacc.pima.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 13:09:41 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: NYC Dome - Living in the country would be great, I can't wait till I can afford to do the same. However, many people can't afford to or don't want to, hence they live in cities. (I think that we should stop referring to the Manhattan Dome, which seems to be some sort of pipe dream, and talk about structures like the Old Man River City project.) Suburban sprawl: It sprawls out of cities which were poorly designed, which did not plan comprehensively for future generations. I'd say that a dome, or a network of domes with wildlands surrounding them would be a much more pleasant and efficient way to live than existing cities. The Old Man River City was designed for privacy and comfort. Each resident had a portion of the terrace which surrounded the base of the settlement. Living space is on the in/out membrane of the dome, so it would not really feel like you were in a giant structure all of the time. The centre space could house light industry, entire stadia for sport or ritual celebration... etabello@chat.carleton.ca strangers stopping strangers just to shake their hand ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 10:36:35 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: NYC Dome - I think one advantage of having a dome over New York City would be to cut down energy consumption. There would be much less surface area in a dome as compared to the buildings. This would save on heating and cooling. Obviously energy consumption is a very large consideration for all design. In particular the use of fossil fuel. dharmraj......Fremantle....Western Australia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 19:07:35 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: Patents Anyone? In-Reply-To: ; from "Bob Cook" at Feb 16, 95 11:05 am Bob Cook writes: > > Joe-- > Thanks for your posting on RBF patents. How did you do your search? I received > U.S. patent 4,974,986--Connector For Variable-Shape Spaceframe Structural > System-- in 1990, for which I did all my own patent research in West Berlin > where I had access to most international patents as well as U.S. patents. I > would like to know if U.S. patent searching is now available online and > whether > U.S. patent abstracts, drawings, and text are also available online. How could > I > get copies of any of the patents you listed? Thanks, again. > > Bob Cook (former World-Gamer) > Development Center for Appropriate Technology > P.O. Box 41144 > Tucson AZ 85717 > > bcook@pimacc.pima.edu > .- > Bob, I found the patent info at: http://town.hall.org/cgi-bin/srch-patent I looked under "geodesic" and "buckminster". I don't know how far back one can search--I think just 1994 and 1995. I think only text is available; I didn't see any references to graphics. But the texts are downloadable--I got several that seemed interesting. There may be other locations that allow one to search back further, but I'm not aware of them. Joe -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 00:04:55 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Hiltner Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Subject: 720 degree "takeout"? In reading Amy Edmondson's _A Fuller Explanation_ I'm confused about the angular topology section (p 75 of softcover edition). "In every polyhedral system, the sum of the angles around all the vertices is exactly 720 degrees less than the number of verties times 360 degrees, or (360degrees * V) - 720 degrees. True for the tetrahedron, true for the crocodile. In Fuller's words, every system has exactly 720 degrees of "takeout." Then, later on, "In the same manner, you can slice open some number of edges of a polyhedron until its surfaces can be spread out like a rug. The resulting map, similar to a dressmaker's pattern, is called in geometry a polyhedron's *net*. A net contains all faces of a polyhedron, some of them separated by angular gaps; it is a flat pattern which can be folded along the edges, and taped together to generate its polyhedron.... The principle of angular topology states that the sum of the angular gaps, no matter how simple or complex the system, will be exactly 720 degrees." Then she diagrams an icosohedron and octahedron laid out flat with the resulting takeout angles of (what looks to me to be) 8 * 60 = 480 degrees and 2 * 120 = 240 degrees respectively. Not what I expected. Even taking the sum of all the angles (the perimeter outside angles) leaves 3720 degrees and 1440 degrees respectively. No help there. I also envisioned a tetrahedron laid out like: ______________________ \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \/__________\/ \ / \ / \ / \ / (imagine equilaterals here, forming an "unfolded" tetrahedron. the ways I can look at this are: zero takeout angle (no angular gaps), or by adding the three 300 degree outside angles, come up with 900 degrees. Apart from this concept, I think I got most of what the book had to say. I'm pretty baffled at this point, so any of you who understand Synergetics, perhaps you could explain what I'm missing here. Thanks much. Bob -- Bob Hiltner "It is not enough to do well (and I hope you do), you must also do good" ^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 05:15:30 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: An Idea for a Bucky chat session - Fun or Foolhardy? mohamed tagdi (tagdi@RUULCH.LET.RUU.NL) wrote: > In Message Thu, 16 Feb 1995 05:07:03 -0500, > "Christopher J. Fearnley" writes: > >OK, how many people have access to ytalk or similar? Or maybe an IRC > >channel on Bucky once per week? Let's try it once for experimental > >sake, say Saturday, February 18th at 11pm EST (USA). We could all > >gather with ytalk or set up an IRC channel. Who's game? Maybe every > >Sat. at 11pm EST? What's the best time for a global Bucky chat > >session. Sorry, for opening this can of worms, but it sounds like fun > >to me! OK, OK, I got it. But I'm not a nerd for suggesting Bucky chat on a Sat night, I'm a geek :) Let's move the time to Sunday 11pm EST. Also, I think more people probably have access to IRC than ytalk, so let's go with the IRC. I'll try to post references to IRC documentation (FAQs, etc.,) later (check news.answers in the meantime). I've only been on IRC a few times, so Sat night I'll be reading the docs :) Maybe I'll hack at POV-Ray too. Should be fun; anyone want to party! > how about a format for the discussion . when a new subject inter the > discussion it should 2 or 3 weeks to go into it in depth. that also give > some time for a person to read a book . few chpters and check an > encyclopidia . so as to get more informed . > i made a scheme for comprhensive study which take 1year and half. > i try to send it another time. > in this schem one subject studied at one time for 1 month to 2 months. > that is the main course you might say. meanwhile the person invistigate > synergatics in small shunkes, also physics chimestry or other > sciences . let me try to be clear . i have the plan to read the main subject > in the mornning let us say and the by subject in the night . or one day this > and one day that . > with all of this i can also follow the particular 2 or 3 subjects of the > discussion and read few things so one can go in depth . that can be doen > only if the subjects of discussion were limited. this just one idea may > be i am off but by communicating , i might come to realize my rong thinking. I think chatting would be particularly poor for detailed discussions. What you're talking about seems more appropriate in a group e-mail/news discussion (like GEODESIC). I see chatting as a more social, light activity. Like "Hey, anyone know where the Bucky FAQ is?" And "What did you think of that long thread on ... what was it ... ah, splerging? Did you ever figure out what a splergin(sic) is in the first place? Is it an animal?" The advantage of chatting is immediate feedback. The disadvantage is fragmentation and conversational drifting (oh, maybe these are advantages too). It's a different media. I'm not sure how it would work out. But I think it would make for a fun learning experiment. And I could archive the discussion and post it, thus embarrassing everyone!! As soon as I figure out how to tell people how to log into the IRC, I'll give instructions for joining the #Bucky channel. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 06:54:04 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Dystan Hays Organization: Dystan Hays Studios Subject: Re: 720 degree "takeout"? Bob Hiltner (bobhilt@eskimo.com) wrote: : In reading Amy Edmondson's _A Fuller Explanation_ I'm confused about the : angular topology section (p 75 of softcover edition). I believe you need in each case to consider the local (possible) layout of faces at (immediately adjacent to) each vertex of the polyhedron. The tetrahedron case you illustrated shows 180 degrees left over (outside the faces of the net) adjacent to each of the three polyhedral vertices at the edge-centers of the net-layout triangle. That totals 540 degrees of "takeout" or angular "excess" for those three polyhedral vertices. To see the excess for the fourth vertex (represented by the combination of the three corners of the net-layout triangle), you might rearrange the net somewhat -- so that all of the polyhedral faces that are adjacent to that vertex of the polyhedron are also adjacent to it in the net layout. When you do this, you get a net-layout where the vertex in question now looks just like the three others already considered. That is to say, the excess at this vertex is also 180 degrees. The previous 540 plus this 180 sum to 720, which is 720 less than 4 (vertices) times 360, or 1440. In the tetrahedron, there are three 60 degree face angles adjacent to each of the four vertices, so there is 180 degrees of excess per vertex. In the case of the icosahedron, there are five 60 degree face angles around each of twelve vertices, so 60 degrees of excess per vertex. (5 times 60 is 300, which is 60 less than 360) Twelve 60s adds up to 720. Sorry to go on so long. regards, -- John Kirk dystan@netaxs.com Dystan Hays Studios ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 05:44:57 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Kiyoshi Kuromiya Subject: Re: Patents Anyone? X-cc: rich@cpp.pha.pa.us In-Reply-To: from "Bob Cook" at Feb 16, 95 11:05:54 am On Feb 17, Bob Cook writes: > Thanks for your posting on RBF patents. How did you do your search? I received > U.S. patent 4,974,986--Connector For Variable-Shape Spaceframe Structural > System-- in 1990, for which I did all my own patent research in West Berlin > where I had access to most international patents as well as U.S. patents. I > would like to know if U.S. patent searching is now available online and > whether U.S. patent abstracts, drawings, and text are also available online. > How could I get copies of any of the patents you listed? Thanks, again. > In 1983 a one-volume book of Bucky's patents was published by St. Martin's Press (NYC): "Inventions: The Patented Works of R. Buckminster Fuller." --Kiyoshi Kuromiya ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 13:11:27 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: mohamed tagdi Subject: Re: format for discussion In Message Thu, 16 Feb 1995 09:09:53 -0800, Karl Erickson writes: >mohamed tagdi: >> how about a format for the discussion . when a new subject inter the >> discussion it should 2 or 3 weeks to go into it in depth. that also give >> some time for a person to read a book . few chpters and check an >> encyclopidia . so as to get more informed . >.... >> synergatics in small shunkes, also physics chimestry or other sciences >.... >> discussion and reading few things so one can go in depth . that can be doen >> only if the subjects of discussion were limited. this just one idea may >> be i am off but by communicating , i might come to realize my rong thinking. > >i'm all for more structure, but i think the forum should evolve by >the spontaneous actions of each of us. someone proposes a method >for increasing the bandwidth of discovery, and if it is a good method, >it will spontaneously be adopted. > >there can be parallel threads. if the discussion in one is going >strong but is too complex, questions will open up a concurrent >thread that will elaborate. > >threads can be started that intentionally take the stuff slowly. >a good way would be to choose a synergetics section that you've been >pondering, and to say something about it here, or ask questions about >it. other references that are applicable, within fuller's opus or >in other places (encyclopedias, books, internet resources, magazine >articles, etc.) can be mentioned as well. as the resources are >studied, questions pertaining to new sources can be brought up as >well. each of us will take it as slowly as we like or have the >time for. > if the dividing pages are known then when one go to that area wether its in the middle or the end every one know. and if there is problem in that section you can give refrence to another chunk where an explanation could be find . while the discussion is going on. then the outside refrence would be cliped with particular chunck. say a chpter in physics book.or an article in nature magazine. since i been in the net , i heard of many refrences . but you cant be every where at the same time. think it is a nice form. this will be one branch of the net . the secon is what is going now. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 09:26:36 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Brett Bourne Subject: Re: Patents Anyone? The Shadow Patent Office @ www.spo.eds.com, if you have Mosaic or NetScape, allows one to search patents by text back to 1972. This and the town.hall.org (html) are the only patent text search facilities I know about. "patent" in NetSearch (NetScape) yeilds multiple contacts for each, among other things. regards, Brett BTW I have recently searched these databases for "geodesic" and found 43 patents since Jan 1, 1994. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:59:47 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Harry Hammond Subject: So long and thanks for all the fish As requested from my supervisor I regretfully must leave the list. I have enjoyed being a part of this discussion group (even though I've been a very small part) and will miss the interesting information and dialog. Please don't worry about bounced mail - I do know how to signoff correctly. Hopefully I will be able to get a new PC at home soon and can be back online. But until then.......... See you later, Harry *** The preceding comments and opinions are mine and mine alone and do not represent those of my employer in any way, shape, or form. *** "Remember: No success or failure is necessarily final" -- H.Hammond ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 12:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Michael Stutz Subject: Re: Patents Anyone? >Bob Cook writes: >> >> Joe-- >> Thanks for your posting on RBF patents. How did you do your search? I receive d [...] >I found the patent info at: http://town.hall.org/cgi-bin/srch-patent There's something called The Internet Patent News Service at http://sunsite.unc.edu/patents/intropat.html. I believe its just for new patents but they also give patent news and policy changes. m ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 22:09:30 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Bob Hiltner Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Subject: Re: 720 degree "takeout"? Dystan Hays (dystan@netaxs.com) wrote: : Bob Hiltner (bobhilt@eskimo.com) wrote: : : In reading Amy Edmondson's _A Fuller Explanation_ I'm confused about the : : angular topology section (p 75 of softcover edition). : I believe you need in each case to consider the local (possible) layout : of faces at (immediately adjacent to) each vertex of the polyhedron. : The tetrahedron case you illustrated shows 180 degrees left over (outside : the faces of the net) adjacent to each of the three polyhedral vertices : at the edge-centers of the net-layout triangle. That totals 540 degrees : of "takeout" or angular "excess" for those three polyhedral vertices. : To see the excess for the fourth vertex (represented by the combination : of the three corners of the net-layout triangle), you might rearrange the : net somewhat -- so that all of the polyhedral faces that are adjacent to : that vertex of the polyhedron are also adjacent to it in the net layout. : When you do this, you get a net-layout where the vertex in question now : looks just like the three others already considered. That is to say, the : excess at this vertex is also 180 degrees. The previous 540 plus this : 180 sum to 720, which is 720 less than 4 (vertices) times 360, or 1440. : In the tetrahedron, there are three 60 degree face angles adjacent to each : of the four vertices, so there is 180 degrees of excess per vertex. : In the case of the icosahedron, there are five 60 degree face angles : around each of twelve vertices, so 60 degrees of excess per vertex. : (5 times 60 is 300, which is 60 less than 360) Twelve 60s adds up to 720. : Sorry to go on so long. : regards, -- John Kirk : dystan@netaxs.com : Dystan Hays Studios The way it's describe in the book doesn't seem to fit your description (which does make sense to me). She goes on with a table to describe the situation of several polyhedra: 1 2 3 4 5 Sum of sur- (col 2) - (col 3) Polyhedron Vertices V*360 face angles (col 3) /720 __________ _________ _____ __________ ________ _________ Tetrahedron 4 1440 720 720 1 Octahedron 6 2160 1440 720 2 Icosohedron 12 4320 3600 720 5 Cube 8 2880 2160 720 3 Pent. Dodec 20 7200 6480 720 9 VE 12 4320 3600 720 5 4f Icosohedron 80 58320 57600 720 80 Nice symmetry here. I can see that the table looks nice, and where the numbers for the tetrahedron appear to come from (4 vertices with 3-60degree angles each = 4*180 = 720), but that logic breaks down for me somewhat when I try it with the octohedron (maybe I don't have the right angles). I see it again for the cube (8 vertices with 3*90 = 270 degrees each = 2160). So there appears to be an equation that looks like the total of the MISSING angles from each vertex (360 sum of vertex's angles) all add up to 720? If this is the point, then I believe I underestand it. The closer to a sphere, the less each vertex's missing angle is, and the more vertices there are, limit case ==> infinitely small angles with infinitely many vertices, still adding up to 720. (I know that bucky abhorred the concept of infinities and limit cases, but I was trained more in the classical calculus, so it helps me relate... :-). The point I still have trouble with: When you slice this thing open and lay it flat, what angles are we talking about here? Is it the angles where each vertex was [180 for each "vertex" of the tetrahedron, times 3] plus some "invisible" vertex's angle where the surfaces would meet? [the 4th vertex which we don't see when the tetrahedron is laid flat]? (does that make ANY sense?) If that's the case, then I don't see any predictive value here, which is what I was looking for, I guess. If you have a regular polyhedron, you can divide to get the angles of the vertices, but what about for irregular polyhedra? It doen't provide much benefit to get out the protractor and measure all the angles, add up the takeout, and discover that yes, there is 720 degrees. I am having a difficult time stating my case and my confusion here. I apologize for the length and confusion of the post, but I hope there is some answer there for me on this somewhat obtuse ;-) point. thanks again. -bob -- Bob Hiltner "It is not enough to do well (and I hope you do), you must also do good" ^^^^ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 11:00:33 +0100 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: 720 degree "takeout"? In message Fri, 17 Feb 1995 22:09:30 GMT, Bob Hiltner writes: > Dystan Hays (dystan@netaxs.com) wrote: > : Bob Hiltner (bobhilt@eskimo.com) wrote: > : : In reading Amy Edmondson's _A Fuller Explanation_ I'm confused about > the : : angular topology section (p 75 of softcover edition). a lot of people find synergatic diffucult .some asked if we can apply in the same way as the other sciences . i like the idea of disscusing this book by chpters . chapter one what is the maine mathmathical ideas ,we can open a discussion , we can even give homework , make some problems for every section . only by solving problems did physics advanced . more in the level ofnumerical finding and analysing we can store the explanation and problems in very nice way . as an introduction to any body intrested . synergetics should by no means take more than a year to understand . i mean the foundation . but there a lot of people who wast a lot of time not becuse of the geometry . but becuse of the languge and lack of problem solving. i think a discussion of her book will bring some surprises. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 16:27:34 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: David Morrison Bks Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Subject: RBF Signed Books For Sale >From morrison@teleport.com Fri Feb 17 16:21:43 1995 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (morrison@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA10345 for ; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 16:21:41 -0800 Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 16:21:41 -0800 From: David Morrison Bks Message-Id: <199502180021.QAA10345@desiree.teleport.com> X-To: morrison@teleport.com Subject: bucky.txt Status: O DAVID MORRISON BOOKS 1420 Southeast Thirty-seventh Avenue Portland OR 97214 USA telephone or FAX 503-233-5868 internet: morrison@teleport.com InterLoc: MORRISON@interloc.com R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER -- FOR SALE -- FEBRUARY 1995 A selection of books by and about RBF from David Morrison Books. Note that most of these titles are signed. Many more titles yet to be cataloged, including some letters, photographs, and other ephemera. Contact us _before_ sending money: these titles may not last long. Phone or FAX for quickest service. We are always interested in purchasing books relating to Architecture, Photography, and the Arts. Terms of Sale - Any item may be returned within ten days of receipt. - Remittance with order: libraries and institutions will be billed. - Book dealers receive 10% discount. - Visa, Master Card, American Express are welcome. - Price does not include postage: $2.50 1st title, .50 additional. - Mention where you saw this list, and the [Interloc #____] (Fuller, Buckminster) Snyder, Robert: BUCKMINSTER FULLER. St. Martin's Press, 1980. 1st ed. Sm. 4to Cloth/paper 218 pp. Vg Vg. Many B&W photos. Owner's stamp. [Interloc #101] $25.00 (Fuller, R. Buckminster) Hample, Stuart: NON-BEING AND SOMETHINGNESS. Random House, New York 1978. 4to wraps wraps Hample, S. & Fuller, R. B. Fine. Signed & inscribed by RBF, with introduction by RBF. [Interloc #1404] $25.00 Fuller, R. Buckminster: IDEAS AND INTEGRITIES. Prentice- Hall, Englewood Cliffs 1963. 1st ed. 8vo cloth 318 pp. photographs G. Signed and inscribed by RBF. [Interloc #1403] $65.00 Fuller, R. Buckminster: TETRASCROLL: GOLDILOCKS AND THE THREE BEARS. St. Martin's Press, New York 1982. 1st ed. 4to cloth 129 pp. VG Fuller, R. Buckminster F/VG. Signed, inscribed, dated and full page drawing by RBF. [Interloc #1397] $150.00 Fuller, R. Buckminster: THE DYMAXION WORLD OF BUCKMINSTER FULLER. Doubleday Anchor, Garden City 1960. 1st PB ed. 4to wraps 246 pp. wraps photographs Fine. Signed by RBF. [Interloc #1398] $30.00 Kenner, Hugh: BUCKY: A GUIDED TOUR OF BUCKMINSTER FULLER. William Morrow & Co., New York 1973. 1st ed. 8vo cloth 338 pp. photographs Fine. Signed by RBF. [Interloc #1401] $50.00 -- David Morrison Books - Art, Architecture, Photography, & Rare Books 1420 Southeast Thirty-seventh Avenue - Portland, Oregon 97214 - USA telephone/fax: 503-233-5868 e-mail: morrison@teleport.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 11:02:44 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: VERONICA WWW SEARCH RESULTS OF A VERONICA SEARCH OF THE WWW USING KEYWORD "GEODESIC" On Singularity Free Spacetimes--II : Mid Geodesic Completeness Naresh Dadhich and L. K. Patel, 11 pages GEODESIC STRUCTURE OF THE 2 + 1 BLACK HOLE Norman Cruz, Cristian Martinez and Leda Pena GEODESIC MOTION IN THE 5D MAGNETIZED SCHWARZSCHILD-LIKE SOLUTIONS Tonatiuh Matos and Nora Breton On Spacetimes Admitting Shear-free,Irrotational,Geodesic Timelike Congruences Alan A. Coley and Des J. Mc Manus Shear-free, Irrotational, Geodesic, Anisotropic Fluid Cosmologies Des J. Mc Manus and Alan A. Coley geodesic.h Community Networks & Internet/Geodesic Access Willard Uncapher GEODESIC@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU GEODESIC (files) GEODESIC (pilotObject) GEODESIC (threads) Review: Geodesic Dreams Gardner Dozois GEODESIC%UBVM.BITNET@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Geodesic Scattering of Solitonic Strings Ramzi R. Khuri, 6 pages Gauge Theory of the String Geodesic Field A.Aurilia, A.Smailagic, E.Spallucci; 38 pages, PHYZZX, UTS-DFT-92-29 Van Vleck Determinants:Geodesic Focussing & Defocussing in Lorentzian Spacetimes Matt Visser [plain LaTeX, 18 pages] THE GEODESIC MOTION ON GENERALIZED TAUB-NUT GRAVITATIONAL INSTANTONS Mihai Visinescu (Dept of Theoretical Physics, Inst of Atomic Physics P.O.Box MG-6, Magurele, Bucharest, Romania), 12 pages THE GEODESIC MOTION IN TAUB-NUT SPINNING SPACE Mihai Visinescu, LATEX, 14 pages, IFA-FT-392-1993. Vacuum Correlations at Geodesic Distance in Quantum Gravity G. Modanese (INFN, Trento, & Max-Planck-Institut, Muenchen) report UTF 332, 7-94,67 pp. (+ 1 table & 7 figs,available from the author) Geodesic (A List for the Discussion of Buckminster Fuller) A Generalization of Geodesic Convexity? Internet Resources (Geodesic -- Hspnet-L) Mon, 9 Jan 1995 12:40:09 GMT - Charles Fiterman Slovakia Geodesic Equipment Purchase Imi940609 Computing Geodesic Properties Inside a Simple Polygon -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 08:24:37 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: 720 degree "takeout"? Dear Bob: In regards to your question about 720 degree takeout. It is very simple for me. Do not cut up polyhedron and lay flat. This adds confusion. Just look at the polyhedron and figure the total angles around each vertex and that should be 720 degrees less than if you took the total number of vertexs and multiplied by 360 degrees. I think this was discovered by Descarte. cheers.....dharmraj.....fremantle ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 20:42:06 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: Soccer Balls Someone asked about a soccer ball. I was cleaning up around the barn. Came across a soccer ball. Counted faces. Looked in books. A soccer ball is a truncated icosahedron, one of the archimedean (or "semi-regular") solids. It is made up of 20 hexagons, and 12 pentagons, with equal sides. The pattern is that 4 of the hexagons are surrounded by three pentagons and three other hexagons, these four groups can be positioned at "north pole", "south pole", "east pole", and "west pole". Hexagons fill in the remaining space. Why use the shape? dunno. Maybe cause flat faces with flat edges sew easy... Any mystical significance? dunno, but dunno how long the shape has been as it is. ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 20:16:38 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Evan Ravitz Subject: No More Secondhand God re: Bucky's "apolitical" stance referred to in recent postings, Michael Stutz's call for non-coercive revolution and Harry Hammond's desire for a democratic socialist government. With politics inhibiting the advance of Bucky's and others' good ideas, it's time to look at Bucky's best as social architect: Bucky to the Senate, 1975: "I proposed... voting by telephone on all prominent questions before Congress. That was back in 1940. Today democracy is not working... Particularly among the young there is a feeling of absolute futility." The popularity, technology, and cost-effectiveness of telephone voting was proven in 1974. Trials for 7 months and 5,500 participants were conducted by the San Jose Unified School District, funded by an NSF grant, and directed by my associate, Dr. Vincent Campbell. Vince says "Citizens were more aware of arguments on both sides of important school issues after participating in televoting than they were before." In 1992 The Liberal Party of Nova Scotia elected its new leader by telephone. After one false start, turnout quadrupled to 97%. In '93 the Liberals repeated this success in British Columbia. In 1993 The Voting by Phone Foundation in Boulder, Colorado was the first in the country to put a citizen initiative, permitting the option of phone voting, on our City's ballot. With an amateur, under- funded campaign, and with the opposition of the City Council, we were defeated 59-41%. I am the volunteer director, and believe we know how to win next time. We have 5 years of technical, legal, and other research to share with others. Voting by Phone is more secure, far cheaper and more ecological than existing methods, and is ready to go to put an end to politics and create what our most outspoken opponent called "true democracy". Here's some of what Bucky wrote in his book NO MORE SECONDHAND GOD, in 1940: "In the great quasi "democracies," so far as the general scheming of things is concerned the individual no longer exists...as citizen man is expressed only as a party machine in the "body" politic, and his government expresses a mean low average statistic "man." Any social action, if at all, is weeks, months, and years laggard to the thinking frontier of the individual... "Many people believe Democracy obsolete. They are wrong... I will explain. That is, I will if it's Democracy you really wish to save, and not some trick you have been getting away with behind its kindly broad young back... "Democracy has potential within it the satisfaction of every individual's need. But Democracy must be structurally modernized, must be mechanically implemented, to give it a one-individual-to- another speed and spontaneity of reaction commensurate with the speed and scope of broadcast news... "Devise a mechanical means for nation-wide voting daily and secretly by each adult citizen of Uncle Sam's family: Then -I assure you will Democracy "be saved," indeed exist, for the first time in history... "Electrified voting...promises a household efficiency superior to any government of record because it incorporates not only the speed of decision which is the greatest strength of the dictator, but additional advantages which can never be his. "Additional advantages of electrified voting first coming to mind: "1. Provides an instantaneous contour map of the workable frontier of the people's wisdom, for purposes of legislation, administration, future exploration, and debate, so that neither over nor under estimate may occur, of their will and ability. "2. Certifies spontaneous popular co-operation in the carrying out of each decision. "3. No foreign power in the world can stand up against the unified might thus invoked through the thrilling mystical awareness of multimillions of individuals that they personally have taken responsibility for the course... "7. It cuts right across all red-tape... "9. As direct evolution it cancels the possibility of revolution... "BUT if direct Democracy is not tried now, future generations will again champion it, and there will be world civil wars until it receives adequate trial." The civil wars over democracy are everywhere nowadays, and our neighbor Mexico is a perfect example: The Zapatista rebels seek and conduct their own affairs (when possible in time of war) by direct democracy and say NAFTA was the symbol of the exploitation that sparked their revolt. NAFTA according to the polls would consistently have failed to be approved by US voters. We are again championing it. The October '94 MacWorld Magazine's extensive survey shows the number one priority both readers and citizens at large want from the "information highway" is to "Vote in Elections." They could have had it 20 years ago without the highway, pcs or modems, if not for the opposition of nearly all politicians. The internet is the perfect channel for the information that citizens need to make good choices. But a phone- only vote (with a "ballot-worksheet" to prepare the string of tones you enter) is easier to make secure than a modem connection. In the coming months we'll be starting a newsgroup and home page on this very timely subject. Wired Magazine is likely to do a story. (We made the Wall St. Journal and CBS Evening News in '92.) Volunteer help is needed! We are at your service: The Voting by Phone Foundation, Evan Ravitz, director 1130 11th St. #3, Boulder CO 80302. tel/fax: (303)440-6838 evan@welcomehome.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 01:00:17 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: No More Secondhand God >... voting by telephone... Yes, but in an environment when/where even a simple and cheap mechanism such as "Motor Voter" (register to vote when/where you get your driver's license) is opposed tooth and nail, you have an uphill battle. Republicans feel that making voting easy would increase the ranks of the democrats. They fight reform with threats of widespread fraud, and if that does not work, they claim that it will cost too much. I know of now democrats that oppose Motor-Voter, but they seem to be in the same shape as the snail darter just now... >"7. It cuts right across all red-tape... But will this further reduce politics to the sort of silliness we have with "instant polls", and elected (or wannabes) instantly over-reacting to them? Will positions change "on the fly" as the quickly totaled votes come in over the wires, thus reducing all officials to roadkill on the information superhighway as they try to use "body english" to sway those who have not yet voted? (Scenes of "Max Headroom", where instant readings of ratings caused "success" to be measured by the second, and reaction time was forced down to the limit of the technology, rather than the limits of reason...) >We are again championing it. One hopes it will not end up being a 900-number! Why not work with other groups that are trying to fight associated (more basic) problems, such as: - "At Large" candidates - Restrictions on primaries based upon prior party affiliation - Jerrymandering and unusual disctrict shapes The only person I have recently heard making an issue of these sorts of issue was the Rev. Jessie Jackson. Problem is, many folks "tune him out", even if (as in this specific case) his points are vaild. From what I understand, step one would be enforcing the voting rights act as it is worded NOW. Once the basics were assured, the phone would be neat, and may well change the size and shape of political buttons (they may become smaller, square, and fit over the "#" and "*" keys). ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 22:38:59 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: ELECTRONIC VOTING In-Reply-To: ; from "Evan Ravitz" at Feb 18, 95 8:16 pm In the San Jose Mercury News(paper) dated Sept 6, 1992 on pages 1F & 7F appeared an article entitled "Of the PC, by the Modem and for the People" by Margo Harakas (Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel). It talks about a fellow named Tim Stryker who is writing software to enable electronic democracy. The software is available on his bulletin board in Fort Lauderdale. He has formed a foundation and written a book called 'Think a Little'. He founded Galacticomm, Inc. There was an article about him in Telecomputing (magazine), date unknown. The phone number of his Superdemocracy bulletin board is: 305-370-9376 -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 02:01:30 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Evan Ravitz Subject: Re: ELECTRONIC VOTING In-Reply-To: <199502190642.XAA26997@darkstar.cygnus.com> On Sat, 18 Feb 1995, Joe Moore wrote: > In the San Jose Mercury News(paper) dated Sept 6, 1992 on pages 1F & 7F > appeared an article entitled "Of the PC, by the Modem and for the People" by > Margo Harakas (Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel). It talks about a fellow named > Tim Stryker who is writing software to enable electronic democracy. The > software is available on his bulletin board in Fort Lauderdale. He has formed > a foundation and written a book called 'Think a Little'. He founded > Galacticomm, Inc. There was an article about him in Telecomputing (magazine), > date unknown. The phone number of his Superdemocracy bulletin board is: > 305-370-9376 I read part of Tim's book and talked to him on the phone in '92. He had a very evolved plan for using a net to focus in on issues and vote on them. He had to admit that the only existing legal avenue to work toward his vision was the initiative laws that 23 states and DC have. The Voting by Phone Foundation is working on the basics, using the existing initiative: 1. Legalize the option of telephone voting. 2. Lower the signature requirements for initiatives. Since phone voting is 10-20 times cheaper (as the 1974 San Jose NSF-funded trials showed), we can go to quarterly referenda & initiative votes, like the Swiss have, or monthly. This will accomodate the increase of initiatives resulting from easing the signature requirements. Now, it is mostly those that can pay petitioners ($1 million campaigns are now common in California), that make the ballot. 3. May the best ideas win! "If there is a problem with democracy, the solution is more democracy." -Alexander Hamilton ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 02:37:55 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Evan Ravitz Subject: Re: No More Secondhand God In-Reply-To: <199502190607.XAA26961@darkstar.cygnus.com> On Sat, 18 Feb 1995, jfischer wrote: > >... voting by telephone... > > Yes, but in an environment when/where even a simple > and cheap mechanism such as "Motor Voter" (register > to vote when/where you get your driver's license) > is opposed tooth and nail, you have an uphill battle. We know. We're not spending much time begging representatives to share their power. We used the existing initiative laws (in 23 states and DC) to FORCE this to the Boulder City ballot. > Republicans feel that making voting easy would increase > the ranks of the democrats. They fight reform with > threats of widespread fraud, and if that does not work, > they claim that it will cost too much. I know of now > democrats that oppose Motor-Voter, but they seem to > be in the same shape as the snail darter just now... Here in Boulder, Democrats dominate and the ones who rule feel making voting easy would increase the ranks of independents and 3rd partiers. They used and abused the fraud and cost arguments to defeat us. Let's put Motor Voter in perspective: In most modern democracies, you need make no effort to register: If you drive, pay taxes, whatever, you're AUTOMATICALLY REGISTERED. Motor-Voter is (nationally) a multi-million-dollar solution to a problem Made in the U.S. Our Tuesday voting (instead of weekend or holiday) is a similar unique discouragement. And a perfect target for "efficiency" Republicans. Voting by Phone will increase voting far more (taking a minute instead of an hour) at a great savings, rather than cost. > >"7. It cuts right across all red-tape... > > But will this further reduce politics to the sort of > silliness we have with "instant polls", and elected > (or wannabes) instantly over-reacting to them? Will > positions change "on the fly" as the quickly totaled > votes come in over the wires, thus reducing all > officials to roadkill on the information superhighway > as they try to use "body english" to sway those who > have not yet voted? (Scenes of "Max Headroom", where > instant readings of ratings caused "success" to be > measured by the second, and reaction time was forced > down to the limit of the technology, rather than the > limits of reason...) Congress had electronic voting for many years, and nobody ever blamed it for their making decisions too fast, or slow. It's the rules of Congress (and the laws of initiative and referendum) that determine speed. It is now illegal to televise the early results from Eastern states until after the Western polls have closed. It's the people who rule, not the technology. > >We are again championing it. > > One hopes it will not end up being a 900-number! > Why not work with other groups that are trying > to fight associated (more basic) problems, such as: > > - "At Large" candidates > - Restrictions on primaries based upon prior > party affiliation > - Jerrymandering and unusual disctrict shapes Why not indeed? We do here in Colorado, home of the most restrictive ballot access laws in the Country (which violate the Helsinki agreements). What is basic is: Whose country is this? Ours, or the "representatives'"? Most tribes have participatory democracy. Switzerland, where they vote quarterly on anything the people want to, is one of the stablest countries in the world. Vermont, home of participatory Town Meetings, is also represented by the ONLY INDEPENDENT in Congress, Bernie Sanders. > The only person I have recently heard making an issue > of these sorts of issue was the Rev. Jessie Jackson. > Problem is, many folks "tune him out", even if (as in > this specific case) his points are vaild. From what > I understand, step one would be enforcing the voting > rights act as it is worded NOW. Politicians aren't interested in ending the personality game they excel in. As the Economist of London (Sept 11, 93) put it "democracy is in a condition of arrested development", by the clash of giant egos. Let's get beyond them to the issues. Let the reps help present the issues, let us vote, let them do the detail work. > Once the basics were assured, the phone would be neat, and > may well change the size and shape of political buttons > (they may become smaller, square, and fit over the > "#" and "*" keys). You and I will be pushing them, not just the 458 reps, the lobbyists, and their employers. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 19:28:08 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: No More Secondhand God Dear Evan: I think your idea and work with telephone voting is right in tune with what Bucky wanted. You had a near win and since you have the energy to continue it makes sense to proceed exactly as you are. sincerely......dharmraj.....fremantle,australia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 06:58:49 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Let's give the IRC a try. Like all good exxperiments, I don't know how this one will pan out. But I'll be on irc.microsoft.com Sunday (later today) at 11pm. Use /join #Bucky to join in the conversation. What would we chat about? Well chatty things :) I'm not real sure. Maybe just checking on how everyone's projects are going. Ironing out some possible collaborations. This type of stuff "feels" to me like it would work better in a chat-like negotiation than the "feelers" people sometimes put out here. I'd rather handle real questions here. But I think there are things which chatting would allow that GEODESIC can't do. We shall see. Oh, and if nothing comes of it, we will know not to try it again for awhile. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 16:25:37 EST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Elias Tabello Subject: Earth Inc Here is something else by Bucky on Electronic Democracy: World democracy is to be incorruptibly accomodated by continual electronic referendum, being progressively fed by subconsciously telepathic ultra-ultra- high frequency electromagnetic wave propagation, signalling subconsciously reflexed feedback attitudes toward specific propositions coping with evolutionary problems as eduationally manifest. -From the essay Ten Proposals For Improvin the World,Earth Inc p178 In Critical Path, he proposes that spy satellites could be converted to read the 'exquisitely ephemeral but exquisitely real' electromagnetic fields generated by all humans.(p341-2) Could this be his idea of where telephone voting will take us? Or is it a revision of an earlier idea (No more secondhand god-1940;Earth inc ?1969;Critical Path 1981)? etabello@chat.carleton.ca I had my hands in the river my feet back up on the banks looked up to the lord above and said "hey Man thanks" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 18 Feb 1995 15:39:35 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: pawars@CGSVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU Organization: The Claremont Graduate School Subject: GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT ALL THOSE INTERESTED IN INTEGRITY ENGINEERING: We are a small group of students and entrepreneurs who wish to see Fuller's principles applied to make life better. We are currently using Fuller math to develop neural nets for enabling handicapped children to control computers by voice, without spending thousands of dollars, for example. We wish to know if anyone would be interested in joining our enterprise. Thank you for your time. Kris Metaverso, Entrepreneur, P.O. Box 22,La Verne, California 91750 24-hr Tel/Fax (909) 625-4678 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 20:55:10 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT >We wish to know if anyone would be interested in joining >our enterprise. Kris: OK, tell me more. I left a division manager post at AT&T Bell Labs 2 yrs ago, so I have no remaining conflict of interest problems with my former employers. (I write software to pay the bills, mostly under long-term contract to the various Baby Bells). I've also been the prey of the vulture capitalists, and I both made a bundle, and lived to tell the tale. Give me an overview, and I'll try to figure out if and where I might be able to help. ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 21:03:07 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Ignore the Above "Re: GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT" Sorry folks, trying out a new mailer... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 08:28:58 -0500 Reply-To: Rjbono Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rjbono Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT Kris, I have done work applying neural networks to industrial problems. What do you mean by "using Fuller math" to develop neural nets? I don't immediately see the relationship. Rick "Just asking" Bono ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 22:47:39 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: 127 House Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Subject: Re: Manhattan dome snow load Buckminster Fuller addressed snow on city domes in Think Volume 34 #1, January/February 1968, among other places. - Trevor Blake -- 127 House - Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 USA - house127@teleport.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 23:09:50 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: 127 House Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Subject: Re: TENSEGRITY (Geodesic Math and How To Use It) While RBF did use high-end tools and material for domes, he also stressed use of local material -- see the bamboo dome in IDEAS AND INTEGRITIES. I&I also describes how slowly a union-built dome went up in the States using modern tools, while a dome in another country (can't remember) went up very quickly using color-coded parts. I believe the inovation of domes is that they are so very efficient with a minimal amount of material. The math is high-end, but once you've got a certain level of understanding natural patterns do the rest of the work. I'm glad to have seen some domes and tensegrity structures in my life that were at least jet age -- but what interests me most is the idea of building domes out of industrial and commercial waste, using the most simple of tools, for the use of people who are homeless. All the qualities RBF discovered in dome architecture -- mobility, simplicity, efficiency, universality and low cost -- are perfectly suited to the needs of people who are homeless. There certainly is a need for all levels of how-to books on domes; I'm glad to study in the upper atmosphere of my mathematics (around 8th grade level, with sporadic additions), but what I'd like to do with that is re-work it into a pre-literate form so people can build a place to get out of the elements and store their stuff. Better to get some rice and beans in a starving belly than wait until the sleek salad bar is installed. - Trevor Blake -- 127 House - Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 USA - house127@teleport.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 14:50:01 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: SPHERICAL COORDINATES X-To: Synergetics List BUCKY'S METHOD OF DIVIDING UP SPACE If I understand Fuller correctly, he used spherical coordinates, not rectangular coordinates, to specify a point in space. He started with a VE that encompassed all the universe and then divided it up (multiplication by division) into the desired degree of fineness, say one million frequency. He then used the spherical coordinate system to specify the horizontal angle, the vertical angle, and the distance from the center (radius) in terms of frequency. Using this method all terms were always whole numbers. The formulas for converting rectangular coordinates to spherical are: ___________ / 2 2 2 Y Z F = \/ X + Y + Z ; H = ARCTAN - ; V = ARCCOS -------------- X ____________ / 2 2 2 \/ X + Y + Z where F = Frequency (radius); H = Horizontal Angle (degrees); V = Vertical Angle (degrees). -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:25:42 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gary Lawrence Murphy Subject: Re: Let's give the IRC a try. In-Reply-To: <199502191315.AA06700@charon.osc.on.ca> (message from Chris Fearnley on Sun, 19 Feb 1995 06:58:49 GMT) > "CJF" == Chris Fearnley writes: CJF> Like all good exxperiments, I don't know how this one will pan CJF> out. But I'll be on irc.microsoft.com Sunday (later today) at CJF> 11pm. Use /join #Bucky to join in the conversation. I'm horrifically strapped for even a few moments of sitting still at home let along the luxury for a chat (my apologies to Medar whom I owe a phone message from two weeks ago!) --- HOWEVER ... CJF> What would we chat about? How about a brain-storming (aka brain-banging) session on what we can pull together for the centennial celebrations? I'm interested in what is out there, what can be connection, relocated, displayed, designed, evolved or adapted and I am certain we have vast resources among us! For my own schedule, my first available time to sit still at my home terminal would be the late morning to early afternoon of Sunday, March 5th --- Sunday mornings are my best time for not having a whack of things-needing-doing-immediately (that is my day for housework ;) and if this timing is popular, I'd be willing to make this a regular part of my week. Gary Lawrence Murphy ------------------------- garym@charon.osc.on.ca Sr.Scientist, Technology ------ http://www.osc.on.ca/people/Gary.html Research/Exhibit Planning --------------- voice: (416) 429-4100 x2215 Ontario Science Centre ------- 770 Don Mills Road, North York M3C 1T3 ------------------------------- What would you do with an extra hour? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 13:12:10 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Nate Briggs Subject: the fullerian missionary effort On february 20, trevor blake wrote: "but what interests me most is the idea of building domes out of industrial and commercial waste, using the most simple of tools, for the use of people who are homeless. All the qualities RBF discovered in dome architecture -- mobility, simplicity, efficiency, universality and low cost -- are perfectly suited to the needs of people who are homeless." relative to this the dominant religion here in salt lake city sends out many thousands of missionaries each year - two by two - to broadcast their religious doctrine which is probably where i get the idea for fuller "missionaries" who would go forth two by two, or three by three, armed with plans and models and laptop computers to work, not only here at home, but in the developing world the task of these missionaries would be 1) to encourage the ingenuity of third world peoples (you may have read about the cubans who watch american baseball by means of satellite dishes made from metal cafeteria trays); and 2) to work for repeal of whatever historical law says that developing nations must use a "culture of waste" to develop the same "culture of waste" that we must lift ourselves out of now - nate briggs ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 18:51:53 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Karl Erickson Subject: IRC In-Reply-To: <199502211703.JAA23409@mail4.netcom.com> from "Gary Lawrence Murphy" at Feb 21, 95 10:25:42 am Gary Lawrence Murphy: > Sunday mornings are my best time for not having a whack of > things-needing-doing-immediately (that is my day for housework ;) and > if this timing is popular, I'd be willing to make this a regular > part of my week. we had a great irc session 2-19 8pm pst. among other things, we decided that sundays 7pm pst (10pm est) we would meet on #bucky, or if that is taken already, we chose two backups: #geodesic and #synergetics. there is, however, nothing stopping anyone from peeking into #bucky whenever. (if nobody is in #bucky, "/list #bucky" will show nothing.) the problem is that nobody is likely to hang out alone in #bucky waiting for someone else to show up. but i suspect there are some tech-answers to this. anyone? can some of you enter an irc channel and stay while doing other internet stuff? if that were possible, then anyone who wants to chat can keep a foot in #bucky while netsurfing on the off-chance that someone might peek in. here's an idea: we can figure out a minimum number of "scheduled times" to accomodate anyone who wants to chat. maybe two or three to cover everyone's schedules and timezones. then anyone who wants to can show up and see who's there. -k. erixon - setebos@netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 04:57:47 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Chris Fearnley Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts Subject: Re: Let's give the IRC a try. Gary Lawrence Murphy (garym@CHARON.OSC.ON.CA) wrote: > > "CJF" == Chris Fearnley writes: > CJF> What would we chat about? > How about a brain-storming (aka brain-banging) session on what we can > pull together for the centennial celebrations? I'm interested in what > is out there, what can be connection, relocated, displayed, designed, > evolved or adapted and I am certain we have vast resources among us! > For my own schedule, my first available time to sit still at my home > terminal would be the late morning to early afternoon of Sunday, March > 5th --- Sunday mornings are my best time for not having a whack of > things-needing-doing-immediately (that is my day for housework ;) and > if this timing is popular, I'd be willing to make this a regular > part of my week. It turns out anyone can start up the Bucky channel on the IRC at anytime by typing: "/join #Bucky". So if others have time to join Gary there on Sunday morning feel free. Gary, why don't you post a time you can commit to? That might make the gathering larger. My IRC time will be Sunday 10pm EST. I may be able to connect at other times, but no guarantees (I might even forget about the Sunday evening time :) Our session last Sunday was fun. Chatting is fun. We even accomplished a few things. But nothing earth-shaking. IRC is a nice media for some things, but I'm sure I'll always prefer newsgroups :) How do people feel about archiving the sessions and posting the discussions here? I'm sure no will mind, except maybe the participants --- chat is inherently less precise than writing. -- Christopher J. Fearnley | UNIX SIG Leader at PACS cjf@netaxs.com | (Philadelphia Area Computer Society) fearnlcj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu | Design Science Revolutionary cfearnl@pacs.pha.pa.us | Explorer in Universe 503 S 44th ST | Linux Advocate Philadelphia PA 19104-3907 | (215)349-9681 finger me at cjf@netaxs.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Feb 1995 21:34:24 +0000 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: John Mac Cosham Subject: Re: the fullerian missionary effort I don,t know about domes being low cost. Perhaps if they were mass produced. What would a low cost structure be made of for housing homeless people? If poor people are to build them themselves with the help of "Fuller missionaries" they are going to be limited to plastic for a covering. That may be affordable, but the structure itself will cost because most places recycle usable building material and sell it. It is not just left around for people to help themselves to. dharmraj.......fremantle ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:22:24 -0700 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: EBOATRIGHT@PIMACC.PIMA.EDU Subject: admit Greetings from another of Bucky"s Beavers. Bob Cook usst gave me the adress: may I join you? Please instruct, warmest regards to all, Evelyn Hamilton (Boatright) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Feb 1995 20:11:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: admit In-Reply-To: ; from "EBOATRIGHT@pimacc.pima.edu" at Feb 23, 95 8:22 pm EBOATRIGHT@pimacc.pima.edu writes: > > Greetings from another of Bucky"s Beavers. Bob Cook usst gave me the adress: > may I join you? Please instruct, warmest regards to all, Evelyn Hamilton > (Boatright) > .- > Since you posted a message it would seem that you are already subscribed to this list (GEODESIC). You can double check by sending the command review geodesic to the list server computer: listserv@ubvm.bitnet Joe, -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:40:50 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: EINSTEIN'S EQUATION Fuller says that Einstein's equation should read: E = 2 (M) (c squared) See page xxvi of 'Grunch of Giants'. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:23:33 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: BUCKY'S ARTIFACTS BUCKY'S INTERCOMPLEMENTARY FAMILY OF LIVINGRY ARTIFACTS A R T I F A C T DESIGNED PROTOTYPED PUBLISHED MASS-PRODUCED Dymaxion House 1927 1928 & 1954 19__ World Game 1927 1928 Dymaxion Omnitransport 1927 1933 19__ Modeling of Synergetics 1927 1936 Synergetics Geometry 1927 1944 Fog Gun Cleaning 1927 1949 19__ Dymaxion Furniture 1928 1930 19__ One-Piece Bathroom 1928 1936 1970 Trend Charts 1928 1937 Dry Toilet 1928 1980 19__ Tensegrity Structuring 1929 1929 19__ Dymaxion Map 1933 1943 Octet Truss 1933 1949 1960? Copper Disc-Brakes 1937 1937 19__ Water-Cooled Centrifuge 1937 1937 19__ Geodesic Domes 1938 1947 1948? Rowing & Sailing Boat 1938 1954 19__ Geodesic Hulls 1948 1979 19__ See "Grunch of Giants', pages xi-xiv. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 20:02:31 -0500 Reply-To: BFI Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: BFI Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: Hanging Storage Shelf Unit This post relates to Fuller's last patent (US Patent 4,377,114) -- for a "Hanging Storage Shelf Unit." (yeeks -- can you tell I've been reading patents all day?) Has anyone ever seen one of these, or know of a place that sells/manufactures them? I'm interested in them but I'd rather not build it myself if there are some already out there. Thanks. Michael- The Buckminster Fuller Institute owns a Hanging Storage Shelf Unit as part of the Fuller Archives. We have it hanging at our Center in Santa Barbara, CA. Please come and visit anytime. You might want to call Thomas Zung, he might know where you can get one. His number is 212-752-3500. Best, BFI Staff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Feb 1995 23:25:46 -0800 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Rick Levine Subject: Energy equals Mass times the Speed of Light Squared For the Best of the Bucky Bites about Einstein's Formula, see NINE CHAINS TO THE MOON (1938). Chapter 8 "E" = "MC2" = Mrs. Murphy's Horse Power Bucky writes some awesome things in this chapter, as he clearly explains how "MA SS IS GRAVITATIONALLY TRAPPED LIGHT" He also writes, "Einstein's formula, explaining as it does imperfection and inte rference in terms of diffused but non-lost energy, provides a specific means for the scientific measurements and rationalization of all life phenomena. " ^ * * ^ * ^^ * * ^^^^^ * ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <<<< >>>>> <<<< M E R L Y N >>>>>>>>>>>> <<<< >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<< of REDMOND, WA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <>Rick Levine 1995<> <><><><><><><><><><> <> .peace on you. <> <><><><><><><><><><> <> <><><><><><> <> <><><><><><><><><><> rlevine@halcyon.com <><><><><><><><><><> -------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Feb 1995 00:12:17 -0500 Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: jfischer Subject: Re: EINSTEIN'S EQUATION Joe Moore dropped the following bombshell: > Fuller says that Einstein's equation should read: > > E = 2 (M) (c squared) > > See page xxvi of 'Grunch of Giants'. MY LORD!!! That's why no one can make all the matter in the universe add up. That's how all the fuss over "dark matter" got started. Einstein just made a small clerical error, or perhaps his cleaning lady cleaned his blackboard at the wrong time... BUT... wait a sec... that "2" means that for the same energy we get from, say a "small" thermonuclear device (sort of an oxymoron, don'tya think?), we only need HALF as much mass, as we thought we did, if we all agree that the speed of light has been verified beyond reasonable doubt. What a boom - sorry, BOON - for the nuclear industry! They only need 1/2 the fuel, and will generate 1/2 the high-level radioactive waste. Of course, the terrorists will be happy too, since they only will need to steal 1/2 the fissionable materials they thought they needed to steal. BUT... both the US and the USSR have verified mass/energy ratios to the point of overkill (OK, bad pun). This means that EVERYONE but Bucky has been wrong over, and over, and over... ...Enough of my foolishness (for now). In "Ideas and Integrities", I recall that he used "E=MC^2", without editorial changes, a number of times. I dunno where the "2" came from in the quote above, but I suspect that this was another one of Bucky's free-associations (perhaps this was a quote from a talk?). IM(Not So)HO, Free-assocaiations are worth exactly what you pay for them, even if they come from the "mouths of giants". (Whattheheck is a "Gunch", anywho? And what would a giant do with one if one had one?) I, for one, would not suggest wasting money on postage for a letter to the Nobel committee on this one, folks. Even Barney has an opinion on the subject: I love you, You love me, "E" is "M" times a squared "C" (follow-ups to alt.barney.die.die.die on that one!) ----------------- If you cut here, your display may implode ---------------- ______________ /\ ___________\ This writer's statements are definitive. \ \ \________ / Recent findings in physics have proven the \ \ \ / / / universe to be inherently random. If this \ \ \ / / / writer's statements conflict with reality, \ \ \/ / / this may well be due to the inherently \ \/ / / James Fischer random nature of reality itself, rather \ / / than any error on the part of the author. \/_/ jfischer@inmind.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Feb 1995 22:05:36 -0500 Reply-To: Gordon L Smith Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Gordon L Smith Subject: TEACHING FULLER TO JUNIOR HIGH STUDENTS DEAR READERS, I AM A NEW TEACHER IN A RURAL SCHOOL. DO YOU HAVE ANY EXCELLENT WAYS OF TEACHING MY STUDENTS ABOUT FULLER'S IDEAS? PLEASE BE SPECIFIC, BUCKY WOULD WANT IT THAT WAY...THANK YOU AND BEST WISHES...GOSMITH ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 11:57:23 GMT Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: DOGLIOLI STEFANIA Subject: info request Thanks in advance to who will replay to me, I am helping an University arkeological group of Trento (prof. Mariette=20 deVoos) on a tunisin site (Nord Africa). My problem is: I have to put=20 together two old french maps 1:50.000 of 1901 because the site is a valley= =20 going from SW to NE, I would like to know which type of projection (which=20 type of conical projection) is used in this maps (on the map there is=20 written LAMBERT PROJECTION) and how I can put them toghether reducing as=20 possible the linear error. There is also a kilometric grid over the map=20 (origin X,Y over Cartagine 40=B0N 11=B0E) but I haven't any point of= correlation=20 between geografical and kilometric grid over my two paper. All this work is= =20 for having a map showing all the arkeological site of the valley. Hoping in an answer or a suggestion=20 sincerely ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 13:40:08 CST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: "< Tagdi>" Subject: Re: TEACHING FULLER TO JUNIOR HIGH STUDENTS picture 1 one really does not know where to start. but i think that first you must understand the geometry . and the best book for that is Amy EDmondson. i sugested discussing the book , and becuse you are new to the list you might not be prejduced to expermenting. it takes time to deal with a lot of what fuller says .but we take our time. but first i want to introduce new style to the discussion . i would like to call your first message the begining of the packge . so when we end it we know that we go to the next . so this picture number 2 (this package is about geometry) if another wants to open new packge it must have different name and and numbers . we can delete much of irrelevent information from the packge ,like what i am writting know . so the packge will be clear for any one to use . if you like this idea i would like to start with Edmonson book chpter8 and 14 . if you do not have the book. i will try to set the main ideas of the chapter and then we open it to discussion . my english might not be good enough but i think you can understand what i am saying. Fuller geometry is the center of his ideas , and without thinking them , working with them , discussing them and making questions it is diffecult for any body to be envolved with it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Feb 1995 08:19:10 PST Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works Sender: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works From: Joe Moore Subject: Re: TEACHING FULLER TO JUNIOR HIGH STUDENTS In-Reply-To: ; from "ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu!owner-geodesic" at Feb 28, 95 1:40 pm A good book to start with is 'Fuller's Earth' by Richard J Brenneman. -- JOE S MOORE joemoore@cruzio.com TEL: 408-464-3743 850 PARK AVE, # 3-A FAX: 408-479-0733 CAPITOLA, CA 95010 I hereby declare this post to be in the public domain.