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Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:00:08 -0800
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From:         Patrick Salsbury <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info

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 _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________
                 Patrick G. Salsbury <salsbury@sculptors.com>
                     http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/
                           -----------------------
                      Don't break the Law...fix it. ;^)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:29:04 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         "Brent A. Verrill" <Bullywug@AMERICA.NET>
Subject:      Victor Papanek died.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I found this today while searching to find out where Papanek was currently
teaching.  The entire article can be found at
http://www.arce.ukans.edu/arch/papanek.htm .

>  Excerpt of article follows  <
Renowned designer Victor Papanek dies


By Alice Thorson, Art critic


Victor Papanek, an internationally known designer who taught at area
colleges for more than 20 years, died Saturday at Shawnee Mission Medical
Center. He was 72. His health had been failing for the last three years
three years.

Papanek was widely admired for his advocacy of socially responsible designs
of products, tools and other objects. He once summed up his chosen field
this way: "The only important thing about design is how it relates to
people."

Papanek was the J.L. Constant Professor of Architecture and Design at the
University of Kansas since 1981 and was author of eight books on design.
Before joining KU faculty, he headed the design department at the Kansas
City Art Institute five years. "He was much more interested in the social
aspects of design than the typical designer," said Donald Hoffmann, an
architectural historian and a former art and architecture critic for The
Kansas City Star.

>  end of exerpt<

For those of you who don't know Papanek's work, try to find a copy of
_Design for the Real World:  Human Ecology and Social Change_.  His ideas
and methods are quite similar to Fuller's as Fuller himself describes in
the introduction to this book.

Brent
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:48:44 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Victor Papanek died.
In-Reply-To:  <l03130301b148095f4884@[206.113.251.185]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Brent A. Verrill wrote:

> For those of you who don't know Papanek's work, try to find a copy of
> _Design for the Real World:  Human Ecology and Social Change_.  His ideas
> and methods are quite similar to Fuller's as Fuller himself describes in
> the introduction to this book.

There are some cool designs in that book. The one I really liked were the
cheap-to-build cardboard speakers which looked like vector equilibrium
models. Anyone know if speakers like that were ever mass-produced anywhere,
or detailed plans published?



Michael Stutz  .  http://dsl.org/m/  .  copyright disclaimer etc
stutz@dsl.org  :  finger for pgp     :  http://dsl.org/copyleft/
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:11:34 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Steve Brant <trimtab@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      Bucky mentioned in Japanese Space Policy list
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Subject:     JSP: False Creek Space Program Update.
Sent:        04/01  12:19 PM
Received:    04/01  1:12 PM
From:        Franklin Wayne Poley, fwp@vcn.bc.ca
Reply-To:    jsp-list@pobox.com
To:          JSP-list@pobox.com

Dear Japanese Space List:
  Thanks to a bumper spring crop from our False Creek spaghetti tree
plantation we were able to afford contracting with Shimizu for the latest
model land-sea-air-space apartment complex. For a picture of our 17 story
Fuller geodesic sphere with toroid perimeter apartment complex see
http://www.scienceworld.bc.ca. We have hot air lift (LOTS of hot air)
which takes us to 30 miles and controlled-nozzle DC-X rockets which
gently lift us from there to deep space. Total cost of the unit is
contracted at a mere $29.99 b. which is a bargain compared to the
expected
$30 b. for the international space station.
FWP.
(Executive Director, Wan Hoo School of Aerospace).

http://www.vcn.bc.ca/fc
http://users.uniserve.com/~culturex


-------
- JSP-list - Discussion of Japan's space program
-  To unsubscribe send to:   MajorDomo@majordomo.pobox.com
-          in body of msg:   unsubscribe jsp-list
- To reply to sender ONLY:   Franklin Wayne Poley <fwp@vcn.bc.ca>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 05:43:11 PST
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         mohamed aagdii <aagdii@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      World Game
Content-Type: text/plain

i think some of the workers of the World Game Institute should
join geodesic mailing list.

also, i think that the car production meter on the insitute home page
might be rong. i dont know for sure, but once i had the statistics for
car porduction for the year 1985 or 1990, and i remember that the
production was around 40 million cars a year, while the meter show, from
January this year until today, the production is in access of 40
million.

as i said i am not sure 100%, can someone correct me.

 tagdi


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:34:41 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Jonathan Thompson <coolbear@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: World Game
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-----Original Message-----
From: mohamed aagdii <aagdii@HOTMAIL.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Thursday, April 02, 1998 8:53 AM
Subject: World Game


>i think some of the workers of the World Game Institute should
>join geodesic mailing list.
>
>also, i think that the car production meter on the insitute home page
>might be rong. i dont know for sure, but once i had the statistics for
>car porduction for the year 1985 or 1990, and i remember that the
>production was around 40 million cars a year, while the meter show, from
>January this year until today, the production is in access of 40
>million.
>

There are some logical explanations why this could be true:
1.    More people exist that can buy a car.  This may not be true on a world
percentage, but the population has still grown.

2.    I grew up in the Detroit area, where it used to be extremely dependent
upon the auto industry for the economy.  It was either extremely good or
bad.  1990 I remember as being a bad economy around there at the time, and
this was generally true in a large part of the U.S.,  which accounts for at
least 6 million cars purchased per year, if my memory serves me correctly.

3.    There are now more cheap car makers making lots of small cheap cars.
I'm fairly certain that China is one, if not the biggest producer and
consumer of these cars.  Similar things might be true in what was once the
Soviet Union, as capitalism has taken hold.  Once again, ephemeralization,
though at a relatively slow scale.  Cars are getting smaller, lighter, and
potentially cheaper to produce, though a lot of the commonly accepted
vehicles sold in the U.S. and Japan may not seem that way hen you look at
the sticker.
>as i said i am not sure 100%, can someone correct me.
>
> tagdi
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:40:29 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      New Power Generation Developments
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Howdy --

Over the weekend of April 25, there will be a significant conference in
Phoenix, Arizona.  Mostly it will cover new possibilities for non-polluting,
efficient power generation.  These are advanced technologies under research.
I strongly feel that people who are students of Bucky's work will find this
especially exciting.

To get more information, log on to the web site at http://www.tesla.org or
call (719)475-0918.  Sponsor of the conference is the International Tesla
Society, a nonprofit organization headquartered in Colorado Springs which
has been operating for 14 years.

-- Michael Riversong **
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist **
Author of <Design Ecology> **
MRiversong@earthlink.net **
http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
MUSIC SAMPLE now available on the web site
QUALITY ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS - Take control of your life now.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:34:35 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "GENI (Peter Meisen)" <geni@CERF.NET>
Subject:      Geodesic posting?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear List Manager,
Did my post of "Buckminster Fuller Memorial Lecture" get sent?
I received no responses from anyone at Geodesic as yet.
Peter Meisen


                    GLOBAL ENERGY NETWORK INTERNATIONAL
                               Peter Meisen
                               P.O.Box 81565
                            San Diego, CA 92138

                              (619) 595-0139
                            FAX: (619) 595-0403

        Visit the GENI World Wide Web Home Page:  http://www.geni.org/
                   Email: Internet:        geni@cerf.net
                          Compuserve:    75543.520@compuserve.com

GENI is a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation conducting education and
research into the interconnection of renewable energy resources around the
world.  This was proposed as the highest priority objective from the World
Game of 20th century visionary, Dr. R Buckminster Fuller.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:23:07 -0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Steve Brant <trimtab@SPRYNET.COM>
Subject:      It may have only been an April Fool's joke, but. . .
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

. . .here's a fun follow-up to the recent post about Bucky that appeared
on the Japanese Space Policy discussion list.

- Steve


Subject:     Re: JSP: False Creek Space Program Update.
Sent:        04/03  10:43 AM
Received:    04/03  12:23 PM
From:        Franklin Wayne Poley, fwp@vcn.bc.ca
Reply-To:    jsp-list@pobox.com
To:          jsp-list@pobox.com
CC:          isome@spo.shimz.co.jp

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 ttshimizu@CCGATE.HAC.COM wrote:

>      I'm travelling at this time. Would you capture the information and
>      send to me? Thanks.... Ted Shimizu

Dear Mr. Shimizu: I suppose one good April Fools Day prank deserves
another so I am still wondering if you are from the family of the
construction giant. Mind you my doctoral advisor was named Royce and he
said he didn't know any of those rich and famous Royces. I also think I
may have fooled myself with the April 1 posting. The idea of hijacking
the 17 story Buckminster Fuller geodesic sphere which was built here in
Vancouver for Expo '86 and turning it into a Buckminster Fuller "Sky
City" was irresistable. See "Critical Path" for details on Fuller sky
cities.
Knowing that such a structure could easily be sent to 30 miles by warm
air lift one would then ask how to get it 30 miles higher so as to escape
atmospheric friction. The big question is how well R&D is coming along
for those "controlled-nozzle" DC-X rocket engines. If they are giving
more and more thrust per unit of rocket engine weight then it would be
feasible at some point to use them to take such a structure to 60 miles
and then turn it to a horizontal position. V1, orbital velocity would be
achieved very easily and quickly in the absence of air friction. But
there
is the big question: how much progress is being made in developing more
thrust per unit of rocket weight? Maybe by next April 1 this idea will
move from prank to reality.
FWP.

> ______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
> Subject: JSP: False Creek Space Program Update.
> Author:  jsp-list@pobox.com at CCGATE
> Date:    4/1/98 9:20 AM
>
>
> Dear Japanese Space List:
>   Thanks to a bumper spring crop from our False Creek spaghetti tree
> plantation we were able to afford contracting with Shimizu for the latest
> model land-sea-air-space apartment complex. For a picture of our 17 story
> Fuller geodesic sphere with toroid perimeter apartment complex see
> http://www.scienceworld.bc.ca. We have hot air lift (LOTS of hot air) which
> takes us to 30 miles and controlled-nozzle DC-X rockets which gently lift
> us from there to deep space. Total cost of the unit is contracted at a mere
> $29.99 b. which is a bargain compared to the expected $30 b. for the
> international space station.
> FWP.
> (Executive Director, Wan Hoo School of Aerospace).
>
> http://www.vcn.bc.ca/fc
> http://users.uniserve.com/~culturex
>
>
> -------
> - JSP-list - Discussion of Japan's space program
> -  To unsubscribe send to:   MajorDomo@majordomo.pobox.com
> -          in body of msg:   unsubscribe jsp-list
> - To reply to sender ONLY:   Franklin Wayne Poley <fwp@vcn.bc.ca>
>
> -------
> - JSP-list - Discussion of Japan's space program
> -  To unsubscribe send to:   MajorDomo@majordomo.pobox.com
> -          in body of msg:   unsubscribe jsp-list
> - To reply to sender ONLY:   ttshimizu@CCGATE.HAC.COM
>

************************* http://www.vcn.bc.ca/fc ************************

-------
- JSP-list - Discussion of Japan's space program
-  To unsubscribe send to:   MajorDomo@majordomo.pobox.com
-          in body of msg:   unsubscribe jsp-list
- To reply to sender ONLY:   Franklin Wayne Poley <fwp@vcn.bc.ca>


Steven G. Brant, President
Trimtab Management Systems
"Charting new routes to the 21st Century"

81 Ocean Parkway, Suite 3H, Brooklyn, NY 11218-1754 USA
(718) 972-0949 (voice)       (718) 972-3465 (fax)
sbrant@trimtab.com           http://www.trimtab.com
--------------------------------------------------
"It no longer has to be you or me."
                           - R. Buckminster Fuller
--------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:39:45 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      27 chains to the moon?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Anyone got a copy of _Nine Chains To the Moon_ handy? I'm kinda interested
in what the numbers are -- when did Fuller compute that and what was the
number of the population at the time.

I'd like to try and figure out a comparison, with how many chains to the
Moon we can make today...

Current world population[1]:    5,840,000,000
Average height of man[2]:           70 inches
Distance from Moon to Earth[3]:    384,400 km
Distance from Mars to Earth[3]: 78,000,000 km

This would make a chain of 10,383,559 km, or 27 chains to the Moon.

Or 1/13 of a chain to Mars.

Careful though, my math has known to be bad...


[1] http://www.worldgame.org/worldometers/
[2] just a guess
[3] http://www.big.com/ggg/planets.html

Michael Stutz  .  http://dsl.org/m/  .  copyright disclaimer etc
stutz@dsl.org  :  finger for pgp     :  http://dsl.org/copyleft/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 5 Apr 1998 12:29:33 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         The Butterfly <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      Freq 3 icosa dome graphic available for viewing
Comments: To: domesteading@bootstrap.sculptors.com, DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com

        We've been moving stuff over into the dome, and will be moving
ourselves in soon. We still don't have any photos of it online, but I did
make a raytrace of the type of dome that it is, using Rick Bono's "Dome"
program (version 4.6) and Povray3. Dome is a VERY cool program, and I highly
recommend playing around with it. I've only begun to scratch the surface of
it, and it's letting me churn out some very nice renderings.

The dome we're moving into is a Frequency-3 Icosahedron, and it's
hemispheric (rather than 3/8 or 5/8 sphere). It also has a wing off to one
side with two more bedrooms.

I've put a full-sphere rendering on the website at:

http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/Gifs/dome-freq3.jpg

If you chop that in half, that's the basic structure of what we're moving
into.

--
Pat
           ___________________Think For Yourself____________________
           Patrick G. Salsbury - http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/
      Check out the Reality Sculptors Project: http://www.sculptors.com/
           ---------------------------------------------------------
                     Prohibition is a sign of inhibition.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 03:52:11 PDT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         mohamed aagdii <aagdii@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      effemerialization-software
Content-Type: text/plain

i it would perhaps be useful to catalogue all the software programs that
do more for less.
in that vain i list geodesic archive software as one of them.

in future one can go back to the archives and check all the
software listed in there to see the progression and the possibility
of their use.
  tagdi

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:20:04 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      number of domes?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I would like to know if the usage of geodesic structures has been on the
rise in the past few decades. There are a lot of dome manufacturers on this
list; any of you (or anyone else, for that matter) have any info on the
numbers of geodesic domes in deployment today as opposed to, say, the 60s?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:15:18 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Domes in Movies
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Lost in Space, a film just released in the USA and based on a television
series, includes a Garden of Eden dome, octet-truss structures,
teleportation, a one-government Earth (which is both a utopia _and_ headed
for oblivion), global computer/video communications and data retrieval,
flying 'automobiles,' megastructures, and (perhaps a stretch of my
imagination) a connection between ancient mariners and higher mathematics.

All of these were invented by or written about extensively by Buckminster
Fuller from the 1920s onward.  The Bucky meme is blossoming.

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 22:11:18 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Fuller Projection
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============

Date:   Fri, 27 Mar 1998 19:45:17 +0000


The thread below is excerpted from the Synergetics-L archives.
These are emails to/from re the Fuller Projection, World Game
etc.  No typos fixed.

Kirby

Synergetics-L:
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/Synergetics-L/synl.html

===========

From: Broder Pan <Mathias.Karlsson.1981@student.uu.se>
X-To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
Subject: Syn-l: The World Game


Does anyone know where I can get the rules for this game? (And where I
can get a rather large Fuller-projection map unless there is a
commercial variant out there complete with map and all?)

/Mathias

============

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:57:54 -0700
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
From: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Syn-l: The World Game


At 07:45 PM 3/27/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Does anyone know where I can get the rules for this game? (And where I
>can get a rather large Fuller-projection map unless there is a
>commercial variant out there complete with map and all?)
>
>/Mathias
>

Mathias --

My experience with the World Game people is if you try to
implement it on your own, you've already broken one of their
rules.  I once started an Action Linkage Many-to-Many (M2M)
on World Game and got a nasty letter from their lawyer --
had to change my newsgroup to 'Global Modeling Simulations'
or something.

What you're supposed to do is phone WGI and request one of
their teams to fly out to your location and deliver World
Game as a service.  During their presentation, you'll learn
how crazy it is to use any other map of the world -- a kind
of sales pitch, given their lock on the artifact in question.

Best wishes,
Kirby

============

Date:   Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:09:28 +0000
From: Broder Pan <Mathias.Karlsson.1981@student.uu.se>
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Syn-l: The World Game

Kirby Urner wrote:

> Mathias --
>
> My experience with the World Game people is if you try to
> implement it on your own, you've already broken one of their
> rules.  I once started an Action Linkage Many-to-Many (M2M)
> on World Game and got a nasty letter from their lawyer --
> had to change my newsgroup to 'Global Modeling Simulations'
> or something.

You can't be serious!? This can't possibly be what Bucky meant to happen
with this simple little thing is it?

> What you're supposed to do is phone WGI and request one of
> their teams to fly out to your location and deliver World
> Game as a service.  During their presentation, you'll learn
> how crazy it is to use any other map of the world -- a kind
> of sales pitch, given their lock on the artifact in question.

Well, I myself like a map with political boundaries on it. ;) It wouldn't
exactly be dirt cheap to get them to fly to Sweden you know.

/Mathias

============

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:13:12 -0700
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
From: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Syn-l: The World Game


>Well, I myself like a map with political boundaries on it. ;) It wouldn't
>exactly be dirt cheap to get them to fly to Sweden you know.
>
>/Mathias
>

For a long time the WGI gym-sized maps did have political boundaries,
but you had to look closely -- collages of jet navigation charts.
Lots of other "lines in the sand" too.  Being a jet pilot ain't
know picnic, is one of the lessons you learn staring at this piece
of work.  So many "shoot ya down" zones -- makes yer head spin.

On WGI's behalf, I'd say their implementation is high caliber.  Any
local effort, even given an even playing field in terms of access
to Bucky's works, is going to have to be pretty serious to match
WGI's in terms of "homework done" -- i.e. they bring a LOT of value
added to their version of the game.  I think they can handle a
little competition, in other words, and not lose big time.

A little healthy competition would probably would help generate
business actually, as people are still unfamiliar with the genre
(teams showing up at schools and taking over for a spell).  Only
the military seems to get to play:  high schools are endlessly
beseiged by recruiters from the various services, sometimes
landing by helicopter and doing mock combat in the football
field, faces painted, guns ablaze, and with kids a captive
audience, dutifully assembled (hey, it's a great show! better
than math class!)

Ain't the USA just what the Founding Fathers always dreamed?
(hark, what's that rolling sound? -- coming from the cemetery
I think).

Kirby

===========

Date:   Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:20:54 +0000
From: Broder Pan <Mathias.Karlsson.1981@student.uu.se>
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Syn-l: The World Game


Well I originally asked because I wanted to just play the game along with a
few friends and see what it was like... Isn't there enough info to put it all
together in some book or another? :)

/Mathias

===========

Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:40:48 -0700
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
From: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Syn-l: The World Game

At 11:20 PM 3/27/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Well I originally asked because I wanted to just play the game along with a
>few friends and see what it was like... Isn't there enough info to put it all
>together in some book or another? :)
>
>/Mathias
>

The WGI experience involves a gym-sized map -- nothing easy for a few
friends to duplicate in an afternoon.  Of course Earth itself is already
available, so you can play be walking to the corner and buying a Pepsi,
but that's not so much fun as being a giant, with the space shuttle
flying by ankle high.

There's a write-up of the Centennial celebration of Fuller's b-day in
San Diego some years ago at my website, which as one of several
write-ups of the World Game experience:

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/geni.html

Many others have filed reports about what it was like to do the WGI
training.  Robert Anton Wilson for example.  My friend Nick Consoletti
played it when Bucky was still conducting -- lots of high powered
intellectual types would show and make the whole thing very heady.
Again, not easy to duplicate with a few friends in the backyard,
unless you're all incredibly gifted (or sick and twisted, as the
case may be).

Kirby

===========

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:27:54 -0700
To: lagaro@email.uncc.edu
From: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Subject: Your map projections site
Cc: pdana@mail.utexas.edu, synergetics-l@teleport.com


Laurie Ann Boyer Garo
Cartographic Lecturer
Dept of Geography and Earth Sciences
University of North Carolina at Charlotte

Hi Laurie --

Re: http://www.uncc.edu/~lagaro/cwg/mapproj/index.html

I think it would be useful if your website made at least
some mention of the Fuller Projection e.g. you could link
to my page on the topic (which links to Bob Gray's more
technical notes).

The Fuller Projection has been produced using satellite
imagery via the services of WorldSat and scaled up to
gym-floor size for use in World Game Institute (WGI)
workshops.

Many kids are exposed to this map, and it has been included
in recent books surveying map resources, and appeared in
the Scientific American.

Kirby
4D Solutions

PS:  I am suggesting this inclusion in my capacity as a
curriculum writer concerned about education -- I have
no current or past financial links to Worldsat, WGI, or
the Buckminster Fuller Institute (BFI).

Cc: Peter H. Dana, Department of Geography,
    University of Texas at Austin

    Synergetics-L (e-list for discussion of RBF's work)


Relevant web pages:

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/dymax.html
http://www.worldsat.ca/
http://www.worldgame.org/corporate/credits.html

===========

From: "Peter H. Dana" <pdana@mail.utexas.edu>
To: "'Kirby Urner'" <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Cc: "'lagaro@email.uncc.edu'" <lagaro@unccvm.uncc.edu>,
        "'lagaro@email.uncc.edu'" <lagaro@unccvm.uncc.edu>
Subject: RE: Your map projections site
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:50:12 -0500

Kirby:

What a good idea - as soon as you find a source for
non-copyrighted Dymaxion globes and maps, please let me know.

When you find a method to include it in computer-generated
models, that too would be of interest.

Right now - I cannot legally use one on my site, nor would I
include it as anything but a construction project without much
merit as a useful map projection.

Thanks -

Peter

Peter H. Dana - Department of Geography - University of Texas at Austin
Austin, Texas 78712-1098 - Tel: (512) 869-1450 - Fax: (512) 869-0899


===========

Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 12:36:37 -0700
To: "Peter H. Dana" <pdana@mail.utexas.edu>
From: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Your map projections site
Cc: lagaro@unccvm.uncc.edu, synergetics-l@teleport.com


Peter:

Thanks for you prompt reply.

Bob Gray has done some computer algorithms and published a study on
the differences between the Fuller Projection and others, using some
mathematical analysis.  I can send you the citation if you wish.
Some of the C language source code for doing the projection is at
his website.

As to the legal stuff, I'm in agreement with you:  copyprotecting the
map to keep politicos from messing it up with nation-state data is one
thing, but making it difficult for websites to use the map as it was
intended, for showing relevant global data, is quite another.

You'll notice my webpage (http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/dymax.html)
no longer shows any copyright information, so perhaps this legal mumbo
jumbo is becoming less of a problem as well.  Some of Fuller's most
important books: Synergetics, Grunch of Giants, and Critical Path
have recently been put on the web and/or released into the public
domain -- we'll see about the map.

Also, it was never a violation of copyright to show a map being used
for something, as an artifact in a scene (just to be clear about the
Federal code).  You can also link to web pages that show the map
without worrying about legal hassles -- not your problem if I get
in trouble with WGI for example.

As to the utility of the map, it has many advantages as well as dis-
advantages. The reason for multiple projections is that each has its
strengths.  The advantages of the Fuller Projection are already in the
literature and I needn't reiterate them here.

I hope you will keep an open mind about the Fuller Projection as it
has a bright future and is already a popular curriculum artifact.
Geography departments which bleep over it while spending time on the
Peters Projection are merely indulging their political biases or
applying other unprofessional criteria -- or so it appears to me.

Thanks,

Kirby

===========

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 00:24:46 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Syn-l: Domes in Movies
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96.980406110237.7795B-100000@user1.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, P. O. Box 2321 wrote:
> Lost in Space, a film just released in the USA and based on a television
> series, includes a Garden of Eden dome, octet-truss structures,
> teleportation, a one-government Earth (which is both a utopia _and_ headed
> for oblivion), global computer/video communications and data retrieval,
> flying 'automobiles,' megastructures, and (perhaps a stretch of my
> imagination) a connection between ancient mariners and higher mathematics.

Addendum: plastic glow-in-the-dark 'Buckyball' toy.  This toy / model is
available in toy stores and includes a text by synergetics-list moderator
Kirby Urner.

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:02:09 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Tim Green <greetb@ULETH.CA>
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Subject:      Chord factor arrangement
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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    Hello,
    I really like your list of chord factor, but I'm not sure where to
put what strut. I have the schemeatic for icosa and octa arrangements in
both triacon and alternate breakdowns up to 4v.  I've tried to figure
out the pattern for strut lengths above 4v, but I'd rather know they're
right than speculate before building a model.  I'm a rookie at this
stuff and feel as though the arrangement pattern for struts is common
knowledge experienced domers since I haven't seen many strut patern
schemeatics. Please enlighten me with the pattern (if it is consistent)
or a schemeatic.
                                                        Thanks for your
time.

Tim B. Green
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1998 12:21:42 -0700
Reply-To:     oregon@domes.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Oregon Dome <oregon@DOMES.COM>
Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc.
Subject:      Re: number of domes?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Michael,

Dome are increasing in popularity.  It is an interesting market, as it
tends to be more consistent than the general building market, with less
dramatic downturns.  When the building market goes soft, domes feel the
impact, but less than other structures, due, I suspect, to the fact that
they are more efficient to build.  Those that are looking to build are
looking for cost efficiency, which plays right to the dome.

During the boom times, we see just as significant growth as do other
types of structures, only the designs get more extravagant.

One fun aspect of building domes today is that we are working with a
large number of people who wanted to build domes back in the 60's and
70's, but did not have the money.  Now that they have established
themselves, these folks are building their dream homes.  This had made
for some very smart design trends, especially the movement of the main
bedroom to the main floor and the creation of zoned designs that tend to
feel more spacious while lowering costs by eliminating triangular rooms
and extensions.

Michael Stutz wrote:
>
> I would like to know if the usage of geodesic structures has been on the
> rise in the past few decades. There are a lot of dome manufacturers on this
> list; any of you (or anyone else, for that matter) have any info on the
> numbers of geodesic domes in deployment today as opposed to, say, the 60s?

--
Thanks,

Nathan Burke,
Oregon Dome, Inc.

E-mail:  oregon@domes.com
Web:  http://www.domes.com
Address:  3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR  97402
Fax:  (541) 689-9275
Phone:  (800) 572-8943
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:25:43 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      Re: number of domes?
In-Reply-To:  <35292B46.16DC@domes.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Nathan--

> Dome are increasing in popularity.

Thanks for the info. It makes sense that youth of the 60s/70s who could not
afford domes then are now building them as their "dream homes." RBF used to
quote the number of domes in deployment during some of his talks; I recall
reading a lecture transcript where the number of 18,000 came up. Are there
any figures as to what the number is today?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:27:05 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         tsvokodk@SOMETHINGFUNNY.NET
Organization: Your Organization
Subject:      LOTS OF MONEY EASY not free

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            important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands

            on. Start with friends and relatives since you can

            encourage them to take  advantage of this  fabulous

            money-making opportunity. That's what I did.  And they love

            me now, more than ever.  Then, e-mail to anyone and

            everyone!  Use your imagination!  You can get e-mail

            addresses from companies on the Internet who specialize in

            e-mail mailing lists.  These are very cheap, 100,000

            addresses for around $35.00.



 IMPORTANT:  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so

 always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase

 these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS.



 ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!



 REQUIRED REPORTS



 ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***



 ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE

 AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE

 SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER



 ________________________________________________________

 REPORT #1

 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"



 ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:



 Margo Breau

 10505 N. 10th, Unit 14

 McAllen, Texas

 78504

 ________________________________________________________

 REPORT #2

 "USING THE INTERNET FOR MULTI-LEVEL SALES"



 ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:



 Arnolds

 1900 W. University

 Suite 6, Unit 55

 Edinburg, Texas

 78539



 ________________________________________________________

 REPORT#3

 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"



 ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:



 GGL Listing Services

 4630 S. Kirkman Road, Unit 192

 Orlando, Florida

 32811 - 2802



 ________________________________________________________

 REPORT #4

 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"



 ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:



 Your-World Products

 200 North Service Road West

 Unit 1, Ste. 155

 Oakville, Ontario

 L6M 2V1

 Canada



 ________________________________________________________



 CONCLUSION



 ..I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program.

 You too, will be making money in 20 to 90 days, if you follow the

 SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.



 To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make financial

 decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into investments,



 retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of money hold you

 back.



 However, very few people reach financial independence, because when

 opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is much easier to

 say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer.

 Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity or will you take advantage of

 it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing

 will change.  Please re-read this material, this is a special

 opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to

 the sender of this information. You will get a prompt and informative

 reply.



 My method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that

 costs me pennies to produce and email.  I should also point out that

 this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money.

 This is not a chain letter or pyramid scam.  At times you have

 probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith,

 but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not only are

 chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain

 makes them quite unattractive.



 You are offering a legitimate product to your people.  After they

 purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them.

 It's simple free enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed

 material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS

 REPORTS.  The informatiom contained in these REPORTS will not only

 help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding,

 but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in

 the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the

 REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this

 program.  The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can

 easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3

 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!



 "IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"



 TIPS FOR SUCCESS



 Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when

 the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST

 send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery

 laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A

 PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."



 WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:



 1.     Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire.



 2.     Get a post office box (preferred).



 3.     Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember,

         your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all

         move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list.



 4.     Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you

         receive the information on mailing list companies in REPOR#3.



 5.     Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.  The

         more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money

         you will make.



 6.     After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.



 7.     Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as

         soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE

         SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!



 8.     Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.



 YOUR GUARANTEE



 The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you

 must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you

 don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do.  Then a

 couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for

 REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 21:51:36 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Syn-l: Thoughts on Virtuality
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald de Jong <gerald@beautifulcode.nl>
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com <synergetics-l@teleport.com>
Cc: Bruce Damer <damer@digitalspace.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 02:07 AM
Subject: Syn-l: Thoughts on Virtuality


>last week i got my first semi-formal opportunity to extol the virtues of
>Struck
>and EIG in person.  Bonnie and friends wove together a diverse group of
>interesting individuals for a multifaceted think-party featuring Bruce
Damer
>at the helm of a virtual reality PC in the kitchen, talking to his
passengers.
>the other room contained a video stream of Fuller School materials from
>our friend Kirby Urner.  a little further on was my laptop, attached to an
>extra monitor as the conversation piece.  the whole room was decorated with
>artifacts from Joe Moore's toybox.  the atmosphere was complete.
>
>Kirby's voice suddenly commanded everybody's attention as he announced the
>start of my Struck talk with phrases that almost made me blush and say "aw
>shucks".
>fortunately, due my experiences standing up on front of people teaching
Java,
>i wasn't all that fazed by being the temporary center of attention.  My son
>Mitch
>was a little bewildered by it, though, and came up to the front to also
>bask in
>the glow of some 50 eyeballs.  missing was a large projection screen to
>give the
>eyes a real treat.
>
>time was short, and it was a party after all, so i tried to give people a
>taste of
>the power that Struck users have to build and animate things in the zero-g
>space.
>i talked about twoness, put extra stress on the "discoveries" that have
>been made
>with respect to the robustness of floating-push structures, and showed some
of
>the more accessible features of the program.  just as when you give a
>course for
>the first time, it's very hard to know what to include and what not, and
>this case
>was especially difficult because the group was exceptionally diverse.  i'm
>sure
>i could develop a more structured introduction given a few iterations.
>
>before and after the presentation were fully occupied by fascinating
>discussions
>with various people about the philosophy and utility of spring nets.  a
>civil engineer,
>a couple of educators, a few new-agers, etc.  it was fun to get the word
out.
>
>the previous week, at JavaOne in San Francisco, i had connected up with a
very
>central figure in the Java community, Miko Matsamura, who does most of the
>on-stage demos on front of N-thousand people at the show.  we got together
>with
>a small group for some drinks at a coffee bar on top of the Moscone Center.
>when i mentioned the coming SC party, he was immediately interested, and to
my
>surprise he actually came!  Miko has a special interest in complex
biological-
>like systems and found himself surrounded by the right people for some
>interesting
>talk.
>
>the funny thing about this party was that though both Bruce Damer and i met
>and
>talked to all sorts of people about our stuff we didn't really get the
>chance to
>meet each other the whole night.  this had to be remedied, so we set up for
a
>walk in the redwoods near his house in the hills outside of SC the next
day.
>i feel so fortunate that we were able to get together in this way because
the
>talk we had in the woods was, i think, very mutually enlightening.  he
being a
>central figure in the movement towards creating "digital biota" (virtual
>kritters)
>and avatars (cartoony proxies), and me being obsessed with structure,
>springiness,
>and fuzziness for so long.  the reason why the match was so good should
become
>clearer as time goes on.  this image might be a hint:
>
> http://www.beautifulcode.nl/gallery/images/BUG.gif
>
>the defining characteristics of Struck's springy animations is that they
>appear
>surprisingly natural and lifelike.  one big downside in virtual reality
>scene is
>the paint-by-numbers appearance and the lack of natural movement and
physics.
>i'm firmly convinced that Struck is well positioned for becoming an
important
>tool for creating digital biota, and Bruce seemed to agree.  my conviction
>comes
>more from what i imagine Struck becoming, rather than what it is right now.
>it could be that the minister performing the marriage ceremony will be none
>other than Java3D (now in alpha).  Struck thinking could give these objects
>plausible physics.
>
>the plan, as if you haven't gathered, is to get to a point where we can
create
>a massive Bucky Fuller theme park in virtual reality.  get building
>structures,
>folks, because this world will be populated quickly and you'll want to
>play a part.
>
>the development path is coming into focus:  i need to blow the lid off
spring
>characteristics in general, especially the way they choose to render
>themselves
>in Struck itself, in POV and in VRML.  the reason is not so so much to
satisfy
>a group of disgruntled users, but rather to allow for the complete
plug'n'play
>of entirely different spring characteristic strategies.  i've got a number
of
>things i want to try simultaneously, so the development path of Struck has
to
>go nonlinear.  soon there will be a whole library of spring characteristics
>"java beans" from which to choose.
>
>what i also need to do is define mutually independent animation for spring
>groups, as well as a means by which animations (hydraulics) can prompt
>others.  the hydraulics themselves will not only involve begin and end
>rest spans, but will consist of a cyclic sequence of rest spans.
>
>the potential is there (for those especially imaginative today) to have
rough
>discrete changes in rest span (part of the "genotype") appearing as
graceful
>movements due to the spring settling algorithm.  further,  the degree to
which
>a settling is complete can prompt the next discrete rest span switch.
simply
>put, the walking bug would spontaneously go faster downhill.
>
>in sum:  i've been infected.  i see Struck as a cornerstone of "the new
VR",
>and i'm going to be putting in as much time as i can afford to turn these
>delusions of grandeur into reality.
>---
>Gerald de Jong, Beautiful Code B.V.
>Rotterdam, The Netherlands
>http://www.beautifulcode.nl
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:02:51 -0700
Reply-To:     "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@teleport.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      FS: Presentation Copy of Bucky Fuller Book
Comments: To: Biblio Mailing List <biblio@ListService.net>
Comments: cc: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

My trade is used and rare children's books, but my personal collection
includes much by and about R. Buckminster Fuller.  As I buy Fuller titles,
I 'trade up' my collection; I replace a later edition with a first
edition, or a non-signed copy with a signed copy.  My collection slowly
improves and duplicates go up for sale.  If you are a Bucky reader or
collector and would like to be notified when I have books for sale, drop
me a line and I'll add you to my list.  And if you have Bucky books for
sale (particularly first editions, signed copies and the like)  let me
know!=20

[#2620] Fuller, R. Buckminster: UNTITLED EPIC POEM ON THE HISTORY OF
INDUSTRIALIZATION. Highlands: Jonathan Williams, 1962. 1st ed. Wraps,
12mo, 227 pp. Very Good: plastic jacket torn, light soiling.  Buckminster
Fuller penned this book of 'ventilated prose' while working for Fortune
Magazine in 1940. This is the first copy, signed, inscribed and dated by
Bucky. "To Wonderful dear little Midge, who gave me many days of her
summer of 1940 typing and retyping these words goes copy #1 with great
love Bucky 3/6/1963". Midge Tenney was a friend of Bucky's sister Rosy,
and worked as one of Bucky's secretaries at Fortune. There is one small
pencil correction to the text, presumably by Bucky.  Included is a brief
letter from Allegra Fuller Snyder (Bucky's daughter) about this book and
Midge Tenney. $350.00
________________________________________________________________________
 =A9 1998 Trevor Blake

J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books
P. O. Box 2321, Portland OR 97208-2321 USA
telephone: 503-236-2364 / e-mail: box2321@teleport.com
World Wide Web: http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm

Terms of Sale:
- $4.00 postage first book, $1.00 each additional in North America.
- Outside of North America, shipping billed (please inquire, specifying
that the books will be shipped outside of North America).
- Reciprocal dealer discount up to 20%, libraries accommodated.
- Checks in United States currency to "Trevor Blake" only, please.
- No credit cards accepted.
- Two week hold with order.
- See URL above for full terms of sale, returns, etc.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 00:09:18 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         The Butterfly <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      Tensegrity Modeling
Comments: To: domesteading@bootstrap.sculptors.com, DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com
In-Reply-To:  <3528562D.CB6@ns.sympatico.ca> (message from Edwin Wright on Sun,
              05 Apr 1998 21:12:29 -0700)

There's an interesting looking article on tensegrity modelling in the
current issue of American Scientist. You can find at least parts of the
article, and some nifty graphics, as well as further links, at:

http://www.amsci.org/amsci/articles/98articles/Connelly.html

        I'm still digging through the article. No idea how they generated
the pictures, yet...

--
Pat
           ___________________Think For Yourself____________________
           Patrick G. Salsbury - http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/
      Check out the Reality Sculptors Project: http://www.sculptors.com/
           ---------------------------------------------------------
  The people that get on in this world are the people who get up and look for
     the circumstances they want, and if they can't find them, make them.
                                                -- George Bernard Shaw
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:49:56 -0700
Reply-To:     oregon@domes.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Oregon Dome <oregon@DOMES.COM>
Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc.
Subject:      Re: number of domes?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

That is an interesting question.  I have a suspicion that the chance for
an accurate count died with Cathedralite.  Unless you could figure out
who to contact for information about how many they did, your estimate
would be pretty suspect.

Michael Stutz wrote:
>
> Nathan--
>
> > Dome are increasing in popularity.
>
> Thanks for the info. It makes sense that youth of the 60s/70s who could not
> afford domes then are now building them as their "dream homes." RBF used to
> quote the number of domes in deployment during some of his talks; I recall
> reading a lecture transcript where the number of 18,000 came up. Are there
> any figures as to what the number is today?

--
Thanks,

Nathan Burke,
Oregon Dome, Inc.

E-mail:  oregon@domes.com
Web:  http://www.domes.com
Address:  3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR  97402
Fax:  (541) 689-9275
Phone:  (800) 572-8943
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:48:41 +0930
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         LOUISE MILLER <LOUISEMILLER@BIGPOND.COM>
Subject:      Bucky's Generalised Principles

I am researching Bucky's generalised principles and finding it very
difficult to find any information.  Can anyone help (either with examples of
generalised pinciples or resources where I can access information)?

Louise Miller
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:17:23 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Bio of Buckminster Fuller?
              (http://x10.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=342521246&CON
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Subject:      Cameron's next movie: Bio of Buckminster Fuller?
From:         prime8@abattoir.com
Date:         1998/04/09
Message-ID:   <6gjjup$b94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
Newsgroups:   alt.fan.james.cameron
[More Headers]


I heard the net.rumor that Cameron's next film might
be a bio pic about Buckminster Fuller, the famous 20th
century engineer/philosopher.

Can anybody substantiate this?



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News</FONT></A></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><PRE><B>Subject:      <FONT =
color=3D#c60012 size=3D+1>Cameron's next movie: Bio of Buckminster =
Fuller?</FONT>
From:         prime8@abattoir.com
Date:         1998/04/09
Message-ID:   &lt;6gjjup$b94$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com&gt;
Newsgroups:   alt.fan.james.cameron
<A =
href=3D"http://x10.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=3D342521246&CONTEXT=3D892187=
529.1175323713&hitnum=3D0&AH=3D1">[More Headers]</A>
</B>

I heard the net.rumor that Cameron's next film might
be a bio pic about <B>Buckminster</B> Fuller, the famous 20th
century engineer/philosopher.

Can anybody substantiate this?



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------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BD640D.A721BB00--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 01:06:54 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Important opportunity
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: AFSNYDER <AFSNYDER@aol.com>
To: JayBaldwin@aol.com <JayBaldwin@aol.com>; glovil@yahoo.com
<glovil@yahoo.com>; 72740.306@CompuServe.COM <72740.306@CompuServe.COM>;
omnion@execpc.com <omnion@execpc.com>; GRUNCH96@aol.com <GRUNCH96@aol.com>;
dmoore@cybersol.com <dmoore@cybersol.com>; joemoore@mail.cruzio.com
<joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>; Jimoriset@aol.com <Jimoriset@aol.com>;
billperk@midwest.net <billperk@midwest.net>; sheldon@pacific.net.sg
<sheldon@pacific.net.sg>; kingdome@mmedia.is <kingdome@mmedia.is>;
pdx4d@teleport.com <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Date: Sunday, April 05, 1998 11:26 AM
Subject: Important opportunity


>Dear Friends,
>This memo came into the BFI on Friday. Unfortunately the attached file was
not
>completely compatable with our computer so we did not receive the full
>message. The following , I think, gives you enough information to take next
>steps. Would suggest that any of you who are interested in proceeding
further
>should contact Clara Deck directly.  Please pass this on to others who
might
>be interested.
>
>An exciting opportunity --good luck somebody.
>
>
>
>
>Subj: Dymaxion Dwelling Machine update
>To: bfi@aol.com
>
>From: CDeck@hfmgv.org (Clara Deck)
>To: bfi@aol.com ('bfi@aol.com')
>
>As I'm sure you know we disassembled the Graham house and brought it and
the
>associated prototype parts to Henry Ford Museum in 1992. Since then we have
>been cataloguing the pieces and consulting with other professionals on
>strategies to undo the serious damage and restore it to an exhibitable
state.
>We have now received approval to hire a Restoration Coordinator to
supervise
>the repair and reassembly process.
>
>I am attaching the advertisement for this position in case you are aware of
>any qualified individuals who may wish to apply .
>
>Thank you.
>Clara Deck, Conservator.
>Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village
>
>
>
>Restoration Coordinator - Dymaxion Project
>
>Henry Ford Museum & Greenfield Village seeks a Restoration Coordinator for
a
>three  year contract position.  The Restoration Coordinator  will be
>responsible for the execution and supervision of conservation activities
>related to the restoration and re-erection of R. Buckminster Fuller's
Dymaxion
>Dwelling Machine. Built around 1946 out of aluminum, plexiglas and plywood,
>the Dymaxion house was being developed for mass-production.
>
>The restoration of this prototype house of the future will present a unique
>opportunity for an individual with  good organizational skills and advanced
>problem solving abilities. The restoration will require repair and patching
of
>cast and sheet aluminum, as well as the re-fabrication of missing parts.
The
>house will be erected on its original mast inside Henry ford Museum.
>Engineering testing of the system will be required. Requires a B.A. in
>Engineering, Architectural Conservation, Architecture or equivalent and
>experience in metals fabrication related to buildings, transportation or
>aerospace technology. The position also requires at least 5 years in the
>construction/preservation trades, with some project management/supervision
>experience.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>O
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 01:10:00 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bucky's Generalised Principles
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Take a look in my website (address below)

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/      <-------------------
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: LOUISE MILLER <LOUISEMILLER@BIGPOND.COM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 09:51 PM
Subject: Bucky's Generalised Principles


>I am researching Bucky's generalised principles and finding it very
>difficult to find any information.  Can anyone help (either with examples
of
>generalised pinciples or resources where I can access information)?
>
>Louise Miller
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:35:42 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Florida Concert Announcement
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Howdy --

Any list members in Florida now are invited to my special harp, guitar,
flute, & dulcimer concert.  Here are the details:

Saturday, April 18 7:00 pm
Institute for Bau-Biologie and Ecology (IBE)
1401 Cleveland
Clearwater, Florida
(813)461-4371
Admission: $5.00

Bau-Biologie:  German term meaning "the biology of buildings" -- a
scientific discipline which considers all aspects of human living
environments, allowing recommendations for beneficial design elements and
mitigation of problems.

IBE is this planet's premier source of information on improving living
environments.  Its founder, Helmut Ziehe, has translated the best available
correspondence course from German into English, and regularly produces
seminars on topics including electromagnetic fields, air quality, building
inspections, and other practical applications of environmentally sound
principles.

During the concert, there will be a short discussion of Fuller's work as it
relates to environmental improvements.

-- Michael Riversong **
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist **
Author of <Design Ecology> **
MRiversong@earthlink.net **
http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
MUSIC SAMPLE now available on the web site
QUALITY ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS - Take control of your life now.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1998 22:41:15 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Syn-l: FS: Presentation Copy of Bucky Fuller Book
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: P. O. Box 2321 <box2321@teleport.com>
Newsgroups:
rec.arts.books.marketplace,alt.marketplace.books,pdaxs.ads.books,alt.archite
cture,alt.architecture.alternative,alt.building.architecture
To: Biblio Mailing List <biblio@ListService.net>
Cc: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>; Geodesic Listserv
<GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 11:04 PM
Subject: Syn-l: FS: Presentation Copy of Bucky Fuller Book


>My trade is used and rare children's books, but my personal collection
>includes much by and about R. Buckminster Fuller.  As I buy Fuller titles,
>I 'trade up' my collection; I replace a later edition with a first
>edition, or a non-signed copy with a signed copy.  My collection slowly
>improves and duplicates go up for sale.  If you are a Bucky reader or
>collector and would like to be notified when I have books for sale, drop
>me a line and I'll add you to my list.  And if you have Bucky books for
>sale (particularly first editions, signed copies and the like)  let me
>know!
>
>[#2620] Fuller, R. Buckminster: UNTITLED EPIC POEM ON THE HISTORY OF
>INDUSTRIALIZATION. Highlands: Jonathan Williams, 1962. 1st ed. Wraps,
>12mo, 227 pp. Very Good: plastic jacket torn, light soiling.  Buckminster
>Fuller penned this book of 'ventilated prose' while working for Fortune
>Magazine in 1940. This is the first copy, signed, inscribed and dated by
>Bucky. "To Wonderful dear little Midge, who gave me many days of her
>summer of 1940 typing and retyping these words goes copy #1 with great
>love Bucky 3/6/1963". Midge Tenney was a friend of Bucky's sister Rosy,
>and worked as one of Bucky's secretaries at Fortune. There is one small
>pencil correction to the text, presumably by Bucky.  Included is a brief
>letter from Allegra Fuller Snyder (Bucky's daughter) about this book and
>Midge Tenney. $350.00
>________________________________________________________________________
> © 1998 Trevor Blake
>
>J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books
>P. O. Box 2321, Portland OR 97208-2321 USA
>telephone: 503-236-2364 / e-mail: box2321@teleport.com
>World Wide Web: http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm
>
>Terms of Sale:
>- $4.00 postage first book, $1.00 each additional in North America.
>- Outside of North America, shipping billed (please inquire, specifying
>that the books will be shipped outside of North America).
>- Reciprocal dealer discount up to 20%, libraries accommodated.
>- Checks in United States currency to "Trevor Blake" only, please.
>- No credit cards accepted.
>- Two week hold with order.
>- See URL above for full terms of sale, returns, etc.
>
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 03:11:43 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Bucky's Generalised Principles
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"LOUISE MILLER" <LOUISEMILLER@bigpond.com> wrote:

>I am researching Bucky's generalised principles and finding it very
>difficult to find any information.  Can anyone help (either with examples of
>generalised pinciples or resources where I can access information)?
>
>Louise Miller
>

Generalized principles are whatever rules Universe exceptionlessly
follows.  You should be able to think of some on your own:  leverage,
exponential relationships between various quantities.  They're not
"Bucky's" of course -- except he had his own language for communicating
them.

Kirby

PS:  Synergetics itself is online, with an index.  You can find a
link from my http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/links.html


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:59:35 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: Bucky's Generalised Principles
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
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MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

You might start with "Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth" pg 49. and
"Ideas and Integrities" pg 226.
I have found that with RBF's writings you should probably start with the
first of the chapter to get the flow of his thought.
I will look a little further to find more references.
He talks about several levels of generalization and how one level builds
on the next.
One generalized principle that he discussed that sticks with me is "The
Fundemental Complementarity".
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:01:38 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         fsdal@KJDSFKH.COM
Organization: list poenci
Subject:      Re: blonde girl
Mime-Version: 1.0
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PEhUTUw+DQpDb2xsZWN0aW9uIG9mIGZyZWUgYWR1bHQgc2l0ZXMNCjxCUj5nbyB0byA6IDxB
IEhSRUY9Imh0dHA6Ly9zZXhmb3J5b3UuaG9tZS5tbC5vcmciPmh0dHA6Ly9zZXhmb3J5b3Uu
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LT4NCjwvU0NSSVBUPjwvSFRNTD4NCg==

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:49:23 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
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From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Re: blonde girl
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who let this thing on the list?
    -----Original Message-----
    From: fsdal@KJDSFKH.COM <fsdal@KJDSFKH.COM>
    Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
    To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU =
<GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
    Date: Saturday, April 11, 1998 4:41 PM
    Subject: Re: blonde girl
   =20


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        charset="iso-8859-1"

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>who let this thing on the =
list?</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px"><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original Message-----</B><BR><B>From: =
</B><A=20
    href=3D"mailto:fsdal@KJDSFKH.COM">fsdal@KJDSFKH.COM</A> &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:fsdal@KJDSFKH.COM">fsdal@KJDSFKH.COM</A>&gt;<BR><B>Newsgro=
ups:=20
    </B>bit.listserv.geodesic<BR><B>To: </B><A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU">GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU=
.BUFFALO.EDU</A>=20
    &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU">GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU=
.BUFFALO.EDU</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Saturday, April 11, 1998 4:41 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>Re: blonde=20
    girl<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0092_01BD6569.C7AB36A0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:33:28 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         MONEYMAN.COM@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Organization: Your Organization
Subject:      PLEASE DON'T READ THIS MESSAGE

****************************************************************
*    This Article was Posted By an unregistered version of:    *
*                    Newsgroup AutoPoster 95                   *
*       Send email address for info! Fax: +46-31-470588        *
****************************************************************
Don't trust me, trust yourself, just read on

This is simple, safe, and it really works!  For $6 (U.S), 6 stamps, and
about an hour of your time, you could earn a year's salary in a month.
Sounds to good to be true, be just imagine. What if it works,  WHAT IF IT
REALLY WORKS?

A little while back, I was browsing these newsgroups, just like
you are now, and came across an article similar to this that said you
could make thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial
investment of $6.00!
So I thought, "Yeah, right, this must be a scam!" but like most of us,
I was curious. Like most of us, I kept reading. Anyway, it said that if
you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and addresses stated in the
article, you could make thousands in a very short period of time. You then
place
your own name and address at the bottom of the list at #6, and post the
article to at least 200 newsgroups. (There are about 40,000 of them.) or e-mail
them to friends, or e-mailing lists...

No catch, that was it.

Even though the investment was a measly $6, I had three questions that
needed to be answered before I could get involved in this sort of thing.

1.      IS THIS REALLY LEGAL?

I called a lawyer first.  The lawyer was a little skeptical that I would
actually make any money but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to try it.
I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the details of the
system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal business.

2.      Would the Post Office be ok with this...?

I called them: 1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY
LEGAL!
(See Title 18,h sections 1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This
clarifies the program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing
list.

3.      Is this moral?

Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good chance of getting A LOT
of money ... a much better chance than buying a lottery ticket!

So, having these questions answered, I invested EXACTLY $7.92 ... six
$1.00 bills and six 32 cent postage stamps ... and boy am I glad I did!
 Within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I
still figured it would end soon, and didn't give it another thought. But the
money just continued coming in. In my first week, I made about $20.00 to
$30.00 dollars.  By the end of the second week I had a big total of $1,000.00!
In the third week I had over $10,000.00 and it was still growing. This is
now my fourth week and I have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and
it's still coming in.....

It's certainly worth $6.00 and 6 stamps!

So now I'm reposting this so I can make even more money!  The *ONLY*
thing stopping *ANYONE* from enriching their own bank account is pure
laziness!

It took me all of 5 MINUTES to print this out, follow the directions,
and begin posting to newsgroups.  It took me a mere 45 minutes to post
to over 200 newsgroups.  And for this GRAND TOTAL investment of $ 7.92 (US)
and under ONE HOUR of my time, I have reaped an incredible amount of
money
--
like nothing I've ever even heard of anywhere before!

'Nuff said!

Let me tell you how this works, and most importantly, why it works.
Also, make sure you print a copy of this article now, so you can get the
information off of it when you need it. The process is very simple and
consists of THREE easy steps.

============
HOW IT WORKS
============

STEP 1:
------
Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each piece of
paper:

    PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR MAILING LIST.
    $1 US DOLLAR PROCESSING FEE IS ENCLOSED.

(THIS IS KEY AS THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT LEGAL SINCE YOU ARE
PAYING FOR AND
LATER OFFERING A SERVICE).

Now get 6 $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of paper
so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to prevent theft/robbery.

Then, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal them. You
should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of paper stating
the above phrase and an U.S. $1.00 bill.

Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:

#1- Doug Lorgeree
     982 Chaucer Way
     Buffalo Grove, IL 60089
     U.S.A

#2- Coveleski
      P.O. Box 803
      Goshen, NY 10924
      USA

#3- Dixon G.
      17811 S.W. 137th Court
      Miami, FL 33177
      USA

#4- Anders Roth
      Kuuvuorenkatu 1C 59
      FIN-20540 TURKU
      FINLAND

#5- Ron Cooper
      177 Cochrane Cres.
      Ft. McMurray, Alta
      T9K 1H1
      Canada

#6- Bruce Franklin
       26 Spire Hillway
       North York, Ontario.
       M2H 3A4
       CANADA

STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move the
other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc.) and add YOUR Name as
number 6 on the list.  (If you want to remain anonymous put a nickname,
but the address MUST be correct. It, of course, MUST contain your
country, state/district/area, zip code, etc! You wouldn't want your money to
fly
away, wouldn't you?).

STEP 3: Now post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups.
Remember that 200 postings are just a guideline. The more you post, the
more money you make!

Don't know HOW to post in the news groups? Well do exactly the
following:

------------------------------------------------------------------------

HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS FAST WITH YOUR WEB
BROWSER:

        The fastest way to post a newsletter: Highlight and COPY
(Ctrl-C) the text of this posted message and PASTE (Ctrl-V) it into a
plain text editor (as Wordpad) and save it. After you have made the
necessary changes that are stated above, simply COPY (Ctrl-C) and PASTE
(Ctrl-V)
the text into the message composition window, after selecting a
newsgroup, and post it! (Or you can attach the file, without writing anything
to
the message window.)
------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------


3. Now click on 'ATTACHMENTS'. Then click on 'ATTACH FILE'. Find your
file on your Hard Disk (the one you saved from the text editor). Once
you find it, click on it and then click 'OPEN' and 'OK'. You should now see
your file name in the attachments box.

4. Now click on 'SEND'/'POST'. You see? Now you just have 199 to go!
(Don't worry, it's easy and quick once you get used to it.) NOTE: All
the versions of Netscape Navigator's are similar to each other, so you'll
have no problem to do this if you don't have Netscape Navigator 3.0.

=================
Now the WHY part:
=================

Out of 200 postings; say I receive only 5 replies (a very low example).
So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now, each of the
5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200 postings, each
with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of
the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make
200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will
bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and post
the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies
each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part,
each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at #2
and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00! Those
3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups with my name at
#1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will receive $15,625,00!
With an original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING!  And as I said 5
responses is actually VERY LOW! Average are probable 20 to 30! So lets
put those figures at just 15 responses per person. Here is what you will make:

at #6 $15.00

at #5 $225.00

at #4 $3,375.00

at #3 $50,625.00

at #2 $759,375.00

at #1 $11,390,625.00

When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest
posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the
list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again. The thing
to remember is, do you realize that thousands of people all over the world are
joining the internet and reading these articles everyday, JUST LIKE YOU
are now!

So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works? I think so... People
have said, "what if the plan is played out and no one sends you the
money? So what! What are the chances of that happening when there are tons of
new
honest users and new honest people who are joining the internet and
newsgroups everyday and are willing to give it a try? Estimates are at
20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day, with thousands of those joining
the actual Internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will
work. You just have to be honest.


GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards from
this, which is tons of extra CASH. Please remember to declare your extra
income. Thanks once again...

===========================================================
==========

LEGAL? ? ? (Comments from Bob Novak who started this new version.)

"People have asked me if this is really legal. Well, it is! You are
using the Internet to advertise you business. What is that business? You are
assembling a mailing list of people who are interested in home based
computer and online business and methods of generating income at home.
Remember that people send you a small fee to be added to your mailing
list.
It is legal. What will you do with your list of thousands of names?

Compile all of them into a database and sell them as "Mailing Lists"
on the internet in a similar manner, if you wish, and make more money.
How do you think you get all the junk mail that you do? Credit card
companies, mail order, Utilities, anyone you deal with through the mail
can sell your name and address on a mailing list, unless you ask them
not to, in addition to there regular business, So, why not do the same
with the list you collect. You can find more info about "Mailing Lists"
on the internet using any search engine.

.." So, build your mailing list, keep good accounts, declare the
income and pay your taxes. By doing this you prove your business
intentions. Keep an eye on the newsgroups and when the cash has stopped
coming (that means your name is no longer on the list), you just take
the latest posting at the newsgroups, send another $6.00 to the names
stated on the list, make your corrections (put your name at #6) and start
posting again.

===========================================================

NOTES:

*1. In some countries, the export of the country's exchange is illegal.
But you can get the license to do this from the post office, explaining
the above statements (that you have an online business,
etc.  You may have to pay an extra tax, but that's OK, the amount of the
incoming money is HUGE! And as I said, a few countries have that
restriction.

*2. You may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future dollars. (Or
Database or Spreadsheet software.)

*3. If you're really not sure or still think this can't be for real,
please print a copy of this article and pass it along to someone who
really needs the money, and see what happens.

*4. You will start getting responses within 1-2 weeks, it depends.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:45:45 -0800
Reply-To:     bward@metro.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Bruce Ward <bward@METRO.NET>
Organization: chh yeh right…
Subject:      new dome in London?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi All,

brother-in-law just mentioned a new project for huge (multibillion $
?)dome on/near the Thames.  Anybody know anything about this?

thanks
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:41:21 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?
Comments: To: Bruce Ward <bward@metro.net>
Comments: cc: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <35310947.3A40@metro.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Bruce Ward wrote:
> brother-in-law just mentioned a new project for huge (multibillion $
> ?)dome on/near the Thames.  Anybody know anything about this?

Non-geodesic and non-popular is what I was told when I was there last.

"Dome" doesn't always mean "Bucky" or "good idea," unfortunately.  I
usually pay extra attention when I hear about a dome but too often they
are either (1) non-geodesic or (2) non-Bucky.  By non-Bucky I mean all the
domes that are not produced on an industrial scale - that is, nearly all
of them.  The carboard domes produced by the US Military are the only true
industrial domes I know of.

Pioneers building domes because they cannot buy them as Bucky envisioned
is the best we have for now, and I'm glad for it, but it's only a step
towards a true housing industry, not the final goal.  Geodesic domes are
the form, industry is the process, global housing is the result.

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:11:13 +0000
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Chuck Knight <cknight@FLASH.NET>
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?
Comments: To: bward@metro.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> brother-in-law just mentioned a new project for huge (multibillion $
> ?)dome on/near the Thames.  Anybody know anything about this?

It's called the Millennium Dome (Millenial, maybe) and it uses tensile
membrane architecture.  It's the only technology that can compete with
a geodesic dome in terms of efficiency of materials...it's a fabric
construct which uses double curvature and prestress to achieve
stability.

Basically, it's a mile in diameter, quite spectacular (though not
particularly aesthetic), and a huge waste of money...it serves no
known purpose, to the best of my knowledge.

     -- Chuck Knight
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:20:02 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         lEWICKIJ wLADMSLAW <healer@NSK.ONLINE.SU>
Organization: Rinet Corp. News Service, Novosibirsk, Russia
Subject:      -

~TO, GEODEZISTY PEREWELISX? pO^EMU GRUPPA PUSTAQ?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 01:41:00 +0000
Reply-To:     shadowland@sk.sympatico.ca
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Comments:     Authenticated sender is <shadow@mailhost.sk.sympatico.ca>
From:         Ian Preston <shadowland@SK.SYMPATICO.CA>
Organization: Shadowland Moving Picture Co.
Subject:      Re: new dome in London
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

>brother-in-law just mentioned a new project for huge (multibillion $
>?)dome on/near the Thames.  Anybody know anything about this?

I think you may be referring to the Millenium Dome project:

http://millennium.greenwich2000.com/millennium/experience/index.htm


Ian Preston
shadowland@sk.sympatico.ca
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 05:25:12 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Military Cardboard Domes
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

Trevor is that you ?
Amid your tirade against the Millinium Dome you mentioned military card
board domes. Could you elaborate ? Are they in production now ? Are they
available via army surplus outlets ? Very interesting.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:39:21 GMT
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From:         Simon Trevor <s335159@STUDENT.UQ.EDU.AU>
Organization: University of Queensland
Subject:      Geodesic Dome

Hi,

Can someone tell me what the term 'geodesic dome' includes? Is a purely
inflatable dome that is made of plastic film, heat welded together in a
geodesic shape a geodesic dome? In other words, for a dome to be geodesic
is it enough for the shape to be geodesic, or is a structural system of
hubs and struts needed to make a 'geodesic dome'?

Thanks
Simon Trevor
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:59:01 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Military Cardboard Domes
Comments: To: anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Comments: cc: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <199804131025.DAA19733@mailtod-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, anthony kalenak wrote:
> Amid your tirade against the Millinium Dome you mentioned military card
> board domes. Could you elaborate ? Are they in production now ? Are they
> available via army surplus outlets ? Very interesting.

Scanning for photographs, I find...
INVENTIONS / THE PATENTED WORKS OF R. BUCKMINSTER FULLER
(endpapers, pages 145-156)

BUCKYWORKS by J. Baldwin
(pages 134 & 135)

BUCKMINSTER FULLER / AN AUTOBIOGRAPHICAL MONOLOGUE / SCENARIO by R. Snyder
(page 141 & 142, 198 & 199)

CHARAS by Syeus Mottel
(throughout)

More information also in 'Artifacts' but I don't have those books... yet.

I ammend my earlier statement.  The Stocade Building Structure, the
Dymaxion Deployment Unit, the Dymaxion House, the CHARAS domes and the
paperboard domes were produced in an industrial fashion but not on an
industrial level (thereby perhaps invalidating their 'industrial' label).
The components to the paperboard domes and the Dymaxion Deployment Units
as a whole, having been produced in the highest numbers, come closest to
housing industry artifacts.

The paperboard domes were contructed in two fashions.  One began as a
rectangular sheet of paperboard which folded into a long five-'sided' tube
(a triangular tube) which folded into a triangular frame.  The triangular
frames were joined into sets forming 'pentagons' and 'hexagons' which were
then assembled into a dome.  This model appears to be designed to create a
frame which can be covered.  The other type of paperboard dome began as a
trianguar sheet of paperboard, with flaps that folded inward to form a
five-'sided' box (a triangular box) which could then be joined to other
boxes to form a dome.  The center of the triangular 'sides' of the boxes
could be cut out for openings; otherwise, this dome did not appear need a
cover beyond weatherproofing.

The CHARAS dome was also paperboard (by that time it was called cardboard)
and was also produced in an industrial fashion but on a scale of exactly
two - one of which was destroyed before the second was even finished.

Paperboard / carboard domes have a special potential in the creation of a
housing industry.  Few could afford to retool a factory to produce houses,
but some could afford to commission a paperboard factory to produce domes.
These paperboard domes will not be the final step in creating a housing
industry, but could be a significant step in creating domes for specific
purposes (exhibitions and emergency shelters) that are inexpensive to
produce on a large scale, mobile, easily assembled/disasembled and
recyclable.  By producing a few hundred thousand working models of
geodesic domes in paperboard, the dome meme will further enter the public
conscious.  As the dome meme becomes the 'norm' people will demand a
housing industry.

I would be thrilled to find surplus U. S. Marine 'box' dome components but
would rather have the blueprints for the 'tube' domes.  They are produced
(in miniature) in the 'Artifacts' books.  The 'tube' model would be a
perfect little booklet for geodesic education: photocopy this page X
number of times, assemble as shown, here's your meter-tall dome.  Models
to working models to industrial models...

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:42:21 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: -   ?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Can someone translate the message below (it's apparently in Russian) so that
we can, maybe, help this person.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: lEWICKIJ wLADMSLAW <healer@NSK.ONLINE.SU>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 09:57 PM
Subject: -


>~TO, GEODEZISTY PEREWELISX? pO^EMU GRUPPA PUSTAQ?
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:06:56 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: missing jpg on your site
Comments: To: Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Kevin,

Thanks for the feedback.  I hope to be posting a complete revision, update,
and addition to my website "soon" (within the next 30 days) which should fix
the problem(s).  If you need the B&W Unified Field graphic before then, let
me know and I'll email it to you and/or post it to the Geodesic List.

As far as geodesic domes go, I can only in good conscience recommend ones
that cannot burn, rot, or be eaten by bugs!  That, unfortunately & sadly,
leaves out most current dome manufacturers. There should, though, be a rare
few listed in the Links/Shelter/Domes/Manufacturers/  section that meet the
above performance criteria.

Joe

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 11:09 PM
Subject: missing jpg on your site


>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/B&WPICS/UnifiedFieldB&W.jpg
>
>at
>
>http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/SelectedIdeas/IntroUnifiedField.htm
>
>is not coming in... Hope this helps...... thanks for your pages, they are
>great.
>
>I plan on making a GEODESIC dome house, have any preferences?
>
>Thanks
>
>
>Kevin Gough
>http://www.compumagic.com
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:14:30 -0500
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From:         Daniel Sullivan <conceptd@MC.NET>
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
Subject:      Home listing near Chicago

I would like to place a listing for my geodesic dome near Chicago on a
newsgroup. Is that permitted here?
Thank you.
Daniel Sullivan
NOSPAMconceptd@mc.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:39:05 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Home listing near Chicago
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Yes!  By all means, please do.  Can you include some small pics, also?

Please list all the pertinent info: Address, phone #, asking price, etc,
etc.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Sullivan <conceptd@MC.NET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Monday, April 13, 1998 05:14 PM
Subject: Home listing near Chicago


>I would like to place a listing for my geodesic dome near Chicago on a
>newsgroup. Is that permitted here?
>Thank you.
>Daniel Sullivan
>NOSPAMconceptd@mc.net
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 02:41:20 GMT
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From:         Filip De Vos <fidevos@EDUSERV1.RUG.AC.BE>
Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?

Bruce Ward (bward@METRO.NET) wrote:
: Hi All,

: brother-in-law just mentioned a new project for huge (multibillion $
: ?)dome on/near the Thames.  Anybody know anything about this?

http://www.new-millennium-experience.co.uk/thedome.htm

as others follow-ups stated, non-geodesic (though using
tension/compression) and non-Bucky


--
      Filip De Vos                        FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be

          There are plenty of ways to empty a solar system.
                       --   John S. Lewis   --
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:57:47 -0500
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From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: Geodesic Dome
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV)

Simon,
I think the ultimate authority on this would be Fuller's patent on the
Geodesic dome.
IMHO, a balloon in the shape of a Geodesic dome derives little of the
benifit of the geometry.  It would require an influx of energy ( or
maintenance of internal pressure) to maintain its shape. A Geodesic dome
with a rigid structure is very stabile by itself (self supporting). It
is a clear-spanning, and very efficient,
(doing-the-most-with-the-least-material (ephemeral)) structure , as I'm
sure you are probably aware.
-Tony.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:30:17 -0400
Reply-To:     John Belt <belt@Oswego.EDU>
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From:         John Belt <belt@OSWEGO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?
In-Reply-To:  <6guicg$sks$1@inf6serv.rug.ac.be>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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        I would agree that the structure may not be a classic Fuller
geodesic dome.  But would not agree that the structure is non Fuller/
Bucky.  The concept of tension and compression as a generalized principle
was PURE Bucky and he saw it every where even in a blade of grass.
Tension and Compression as he says "always and only co-exist", in the
material itself at 90 degrees to each other.  Although his use of the
concept did reveal itself most obviously in the dome which almost
defies being able to ignore it regardless of liking or disliking the
form he did employ the principle in all his work seen or unseen.
The Dymaxion House is another prime example as is the rowing needle.
One of the reasons he was so fond of sailing was being able to see
the principle and understand the big picture of how the extraordinary
use of the principle changed the world through the capability to
open up new areas of exploration and discovery.  These principles are
documented in the film/videos by Robert Snyder and are available through
BFI as well as in the books with the same material.  The film and audio
tapes however are particularly nice to study with Fuller doing the telling
and explaining.

        Tension cable, Post compression, Fabric membrane structures
are to me ALL about Fuller and his work.  These structures are about
doing "More with Less" or "More with Lessing" which he used both phrases
often.  ludwig MIES van der Rohe said "Less is More" and practice that
in his architecture but stayed in a more normal architectural vernacular
that more people could accept as architecture and methods of building
that were more traditional.  Even with this the international style
and its broad sweep of application it does not get to using the "Less
is More" as building principle in a deeper design application of:
visual, functional and structural levels as does Fuller's work.  Not
that i dislike much of the international style, there is much i like
about it and MIES's work.  Too the work of Kenzo Tange and the sweeping
forms of his work are about tension and compression in bold forms that
relate to the beautiful tension and compression and fabric forms of
a sailing ship turned into a land based architectural shelter to serve
human functions.  Getting the most with the least can be small and light
in weight like a Native American lodge (tepee) and they knew what their
dwelling weighed and had no scale.  Fuller knew what his buildings weighed
and most architects have no clue about the weight of their buildings and
thus are less concerned with the concept of more for less.  Where they
do it is usually how it effects the budget more than the environment.
Fuller's work was tied to the environmental big picture budget first as a
life commitment and less to the client and building budget.  His work
was work that had no one client (we were all his clients to him) it
mattered not that he knew us.  To quote him "in my reality there probably
are no names".  A ship architect knows the weight.  Aircraft architects
know the weight.  Fuller knew the weight and knew that not knowing it
usually meant a less than deep design effort and waste of planetary
resources.

        The geodesic dome as a systems structure almost stands alone
as a built system.  Although they are not mass produced as Bucky
wanted by now they are non the less systems rather than _just_ mass
produced stick built homes regardless if they are built one at a time or
shipped in halves or units, they are better examples of mass production
than an example of systems engineering of structures--than is the dome.
I feel that taken collectively, all the domes around the planet comprise
the best example and largest example of systems approach to human
occupied structures although they are not perceived that way by the
public at large.  They also are evidence of the use of the tension
and compression principles used to employ the concept of "More with Less".

        Nathan Burke, Dennis Johnson, John Rich, Jack Lydick know what
their structures weigh as they ship them and like their work because
of a larger understanding of these concepts and others as well.  The
fact that we are so tied to old forms is just that-fact-sad but true.
Personally i feel that Fuller was not as tied to the dome as many people
do and of course the Dymaxion House is one example.  I also feel that
we might get to using his concepts better through "buying" literally
into good modular flat wall systems that lend themselves to the mass
produced real systems approaches beyond anything that we have now.
Once people buy the concept of these tension and compression panels
that i am visualizing then they will become more comfortable and tend
to let them lean over at angles and see the advantages of domes in
the paradigm shift.  There are some big blanks to fill in on this
concept of course and it will not be a quick shift.  The guys above
doing this now are hampered more by banking, housing, insuring, and
housing form paradigm patterns than by the work.  I just want to take
this public opportunity to thank them for their contribution to this
this list group, their work for the greater good, their restraint in using
it as a spam tool, their restraint in answering posts-where they know
better, bringing knowledge through built work, educating us and always
learning, and being as Bucky would put it "positive energy events in
universe".  Thanks guys.

        best to all,
        jb

---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Belt, Design Faculty               Phone:  (Office)315-341-2868
Department of Technology                        (Studio)315-341-2867
SUNY Oswego                             Fax:    315-341-3363
Oswego, NY 13126
---------------------------------------------------------------------

On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Filip De Vos wrote:

> Bruce Ward (bward@METRO.NET) wrote:
> : Hi All,
>
> : brother-in-law just mentioned a new project for huge (multibillion $
> : ?)dome on/near the Thames.  Anybody know anything about this?
>
> http://www.new-millennium-experience.co.uk/thedome.htm
>
> as others follow-ups stated, non-geodesic (though using
> tension/compression) and non-Bucky
>
>
> --
>       Filip De Vos                        FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be
>
>           There are plenty of ways to empty a solar system.
>                        --   John S. Lewis   --
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:16:36 +0000
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From:         ftek <ftek@MAIL.BCPL.LIB.MD.US>
Organization: ABSnet Internet Services, Inc. - (410)-685-2000 - info@abs.net
Subject:      Re: Russian translation
Mime-Version: 1.0
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As taken from the soc.culture.russian ng:


>  >~TO, GEODEZISTY
> PEREWELISX?
> pO^EMU GRUPPA PUSTAQ?
> >
>
> Is here an absence of geodesists?(little more emotion than in normal
> speaking)    Why group is empty? or  Why nobody is in the
> group?    Sorry for bad English. I'm an ESL student. I hope this
> translation will be useful.



Also:




Probably:

Did the geodesists move? Why is the group empty?



and:


More accurate is "are geodesists extinct?"



and:
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:08:07 -0400
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From:         "Brent A. Verrill" <Bullywug@AMERICA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Military Cardboard Domes
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96.980413102218.14960G-100000@user1.teleport.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Has anyone ever considered using the plastic material which resembles
currogated cardboard for the construction of the formerly cardboard domes?
It seems an obvious solution to the waterproofing problem.  It would surely
be more expensive and not as recyclable, but overall, a much safer and
durable structure.

The material I am speaking of is commonly used to print those annoying
signs that are tacked onto telephone poles around our cities these days
that say things like, "I buy houses for cash", or, "Two cell phones, one
number".  I have also seen this material used for lightweight road cases
for audio-visual equipment.  It is a fairly durable material, UV resistant,
easy to work with, and comes in fun colors.  Perhaps sign printing
companies would be willing to donate their misprints and discards to a
little experimentation....

Brent.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:00:06 -0700
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Subject:      *SEMI-MONTHLY POSTING* - GEODESIC 'how-to' info

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 _____________________________Think For Yourself______________________________
                 Patrick G. Salsbury <salsbury@sculptors.com>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 05:57:42 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?
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John Belt <belt@OSWEGO.EDU> wrote:

>        I would agree that the structure may not be a classic Fuller
>geodesic dome.  But would not agree that the structure is non Fuller/
>Bucky.  The concept of tension and compression as a generalized principle
>was PURE Bucky and he saw it every where even in a blade of grass.

Yes, but by this interpretation every structure in Universe is PURE
Bucky -- which I doubt.

>open up new areas of exploration and discovery.  These principles are
>documented in the film/videos by Robert Snyder and are available through
>BFI as well as in the books with the same material.

Best documented (i.e. described, explained, defined) in 'Synergetics'
-- now on the web, readable for free.

>tapes however are particularly nice to study with Fuller doing the telling
>and explaining.
>

The audio tapes are a bit hard to understand in places, given Fuller's
board room drawl.

>know the weight.  Fuller knew the weight and knew that not knowing it
>usually meant a less than deep design effort and waste of planetary
>resources.
>

Yep, he knew the weight.

>        The geodesic dome as a systems structure almost stands alone
>as a built system.  Although they are not mass produced as Bucky
>wanted by now they are non the less systems rather than _just_ mass
>produced stick built homes regardless if they are built one at a time or
>shipped in halves or units, they are better examples of mass production
>than an example of systems engineering of structures--than is the dome.

I think it important to note, as was noted in above threads, that
constructing domes as an extension of the existing building trade is
not what will be needed to bring Fuller's vision of a world livingry
service industry into real time.  Lets not fool ourselves with a
lot of bogus PR here.  And I have nothing against the pioneering
efforts of those who so construct (maintain a list of dome vendors
free of charge as a public service in fact).

>I feel that taken collectively, all the domes around the planet comprise
>the best example and largest example of systems approach to human
>occupied structures although they are not perceived that way by the
>public at large.  They also are evidence of the use of the tension
>and compression principles used to employ the concept of "More with Less".
>

So are starfish.

>housing form paradigm patterns than by the work.  I just want to take
>this public opportunity to thank them for their contribution to this
>this list group, their work for the greater good, their restraint in using
>it as a spam tool, their restraint in answering posts-where they know
>better, bringing knowledge through built work, educating us and always
>learning, and being as Bucky would put it "positive energy events in
>universe".  Thanks guys.
>

Yeah thanks guys.  All guys?  Seems lopsided if you ask me.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:33:06 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         CatherineW@EMAIL.UNC.EDU
Organization: UNC
Subject:      You Just Can't Lose

So, do you want to make money?  If you have ONLY US$6 or a bit more(6
stamps), you can do it!!!

*******************************************************
PLEASE READ ON ABOUT HOW TO BE SUCCESSFUL
*******************************************************

1. IS THIS REALLY LEGAL??
I called a lawyer first. The lawyer was a little skeptical that I
would actually make any money but he said it WAS LEGAL if I wanted to
try it. I told him it sounded a lot like a chain letter but the
details of the system (SEE BELOW) actually made it a legitimate legal
business.
2. Would the Post Office be ok with this....I called them:
1-800-725-2161 and they confirmed THIS IS ABSOLUTELY LEGAL! (See Title
18,h sections1302 NS 1341 of Postal Lottery Laws). This clarifies the
program of collecting names and addresses for a mailing list.
3. Is this moral? Well, everyone who sends me a buck has a good
chance of getting A LOT of money ... a much better chance than buying
a lottery ticket!!!
============
HOW IT WORKS
============
Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:
STEP 1:
Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on each
piece of paper:
PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR MAILING LIST.
$1 US DOLLAR PROCESSING FEE IN ENCLOSED.
(THIS IS KEY AS THIS IS WHAT MAKES IT LEGAL SINCE YOU ARE PAYING FOR
AND LATER OFFERING A SERVICE).
Now get 6 $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of
paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope to prevent
theft/robbery (Add one chemical paper for example;this will turn your
bill invisible and the letter still light).
Then, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and
seal them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece
of paper stating the above phrase and a U.S. $1.00 bill.

#1 Ronald Stevens
   20 Lordly court
   Kings Park NY 11754
   USA

#2 J. Turley
   P.O. Box 50604
   Knoxville, TN 37950-0604
   USA

#3 K. Agler
   109 Fraternity Ct.
   Chapel Hill, NC 27516
   USA

#4 R Sauter
   3500 Crescent Ct
   Flower Mound, TX 75028
   USA

#5 Catherine Watkins
   P.O. Box 67
   Chapel Hill, NC 27514-0067
   USA

#6 Ryan
   1201 Holleybank Dr.
   Matthews, NC 28105
   USA

STEP 2:
Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move
the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR Name
as number 6 on the list. (If you want to remain anonymous, put a
nickname, but the address MUST be correct. It, of course, MUST contain
your country, state/district/area, zip code, etc!!! You wouldn't want
your money to fly away, would you?!?!).

STEP 3:
Now post your amended article to at least 200 newsgroups.
Remember, 200 postings is just a guideline. The more you post, the more
money you make!

NOTE:
IN MANY NEWSGROUPS THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT DELETE THIS KIND OF MESSAGES
I RECOMEND YOU TO POST 1 OR EVEN 2 TIMES A WEEK TO 300 NEWSGROUPS SO OTHER
PEOPLE CAN SEE YOUR MESSAGES.THIS IS A WAY TO INCREASE THE
POSSIBILITIES
FOR YOU TO GET MORE MONEY!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TOP 200 newsgroups can be found at --->
www.op.net/usenet-stats.html
*** BOTS ***
Bots are small computer programs on a usenet server.
1) Bots look for certain characters in the "Subject:" field of your
newsgroup posting.
2) Bots also look for "multiple postings".
3) If a Bot discovers any of the above, it will delete your posting.
4) Then send you a nasty e-mail.
***OUTSMART THE BOTS***
1) You will make a lot MORE money if you outsmart the BOTS.
2) Post your message only ONCE.
3) Do NOT use characters such as (! $ % + # & * @ ?) in the "Subject"
field.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> **REMEMBER, THE MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU
> WILL MAKE!! BUT YOU HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200**
> That's it! You will begin receiving money from around the world within
> day's! You may eventually want to rent a P.O. Box due to the large
> amount of mail you receive. If you wish to stay anonymous, you can
> invent a name to use, as long as the postman will deliver it.
> **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE CORRECT.**
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------

=================
Now the WHY part:
=================
Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low
example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now,
each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200
postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each of
the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each make
200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I will
bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn around and
post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5 replies
each, I will make an additional $626.00! OK, now here is the fun part,
each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with my name at
#2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me $3,125.00!!!
Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200 newsgroups
with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200 newsgroups react I will
receive $15,625,00! With a original investment of only $6.00! AMAZING!
And as I said 5 responses is actually VERY LOW! Average is probable 20 to 30!
So lets put those figures at just 15 responses per person. Here is
what you will make:
at #6 $15.00
at #5 $225.00
at #4 $3,375.00
at #3 $50,625.00
at #2 $759,375.00#1 $11,390,625.00
When your name is no longer on the list, you just take the latest
posting in the newsgroups, and send out another $6.00 to names on the
list, putting your name at number 6 again. And start posting again.
The thing to remember is, do you realize that thousands of people all over
the world are joining the internet and reading these articles everyday,
JUST LIKE YOU are now!! So can you afford $6.00 and see if it really
works?? I think so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out
and no one sends you the money? What are the chances of that
happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest people
who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are willing to
give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new users, every day,
with thousands of those joining the actual internet.
Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will work. You just have to
be honest.


** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages
with your name in the list and not sending the money to the rest of the
people already on the list, you will NOT get as much. Someone I talked
to knew someone who did that and she only made practically nothing, and that's
after seven or eight weeks! Then she sent the 6 $1.00 bills, people
added her to their lists, and in 4-5 weeks she had over $10k.

This is the fairest and most honest way I have ever seen to share the
wealth of the world without costing anything but our time!!! You also
may want to buy mailing and e-mail lists for future dollars.
Make sure you print this article out RIGHT NOW! Also, try to keep a
list of everyone that sends you money and always keep an eye on the
newsgroups to make sure everyone is playing fairly.
Remember, HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. You don't need to cheat the
basic idea to make the money!!
GOOD LUCK to all and please play fairly and reap the huge rewards
from this, which is tons of extra CASH.
Please remember to declare your extra income. Thanks once again...
________________________________________________________________________


--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:08:24 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: You Just Can't Lose
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

CatherineW@email.unc.edu wrote:

>
>So, do you want to make money?  If you have ONLY US$6 or a bit more(6
>stamps), you can do it!!!
>


You may be making money but are trashing your reputation.

Companies like mine invest in databases of all those participating
in silly internet moneymaking schemes and use them to screen out
unqualified job applicants. You'll never work for me, I'm happy
to say.

Kirby
4D Solutions

>
>#1 Ronald Stevens
>   20 Lordly court
>   Kings Park NY 11754
>   USA
>
>#2 J. Turley
>   P.O. Box 50604
>   Knoxville, TN 37950-0604
>   USA
>
>#3 K. Agler
>   109 Fraternity Ct.
>   Chapel Hill, NC 27516
>   USA
>
>#4 R Sauter
>   3500 Crescent Ct
>   Flower Mound, TX 75028
>   USA
>
>#5 Catherine Watkins
>   P.O. Box 67
>   Chapel Hill, NC 27514-0067
>   USA
>
>#6 Ryan
>   1201 Holleybank Dr.
>   Matthews, NC 28105
>   USA

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:41:08 -0500
Reply-To:     ega@fastlane.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Ernie Aiken <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Military Cardboard Domes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> From: Brent A. Verrill
>
> Has anyone ever considered using the plastic material which resembles
> currogated cardboard for the construction of the formerly cardboard
domes?
> It seems an obvious solution to the waterproofing problem.  It would
surely
> be more expensive and not as recyclable, but overall, a much safer and
> durable structure.
>
> The material I am speaking of is commonly used to print those annoying
> signs that are tacked onto telephone poles around our cities these days
> that say things like, "I buy houses for cash", or, "Two cell phones, one
> number".  I have also seen this material used for lightweight road cases
> for audio-visual equipment.  It is a fairly durable material, UV
resistant,
> easy to work with, and comes in fun colors.  Perhaps sign printing
> companies would be willing to donate their misprints and discards to a
> little experimentation....

I like the product, and it is not that expensive, compared to
polycarbonate. I would use the translucent variety as a covering for my
dome frames for greenhouse purposes or as a valid option to plastic films.
The color options are great too. There's no problem attaching it to a dome
frame. I'm sure a mass produced industrial/military application is there.
For instance a quickly deployed field hospital shelter. Lockheed has just
developed a new type of these, but it's not too geodesic or synergistic.
The brand name is Coroplast and you can see it at www.coroplast.com and
others such as http://www.plasticsonline.com/coroplast/index.html
-Ernie,
Garden Domes etc.
[www.gardendome.com]
------=_NextPart_000_01BD689E.0E37C7A0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><br><br>&gt; From: Brent A. Verrill =
<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Has anyone ever considered using the plastic material =
which resembles<br>&gt; currogated cardboard for the construction of the =
formerly cardboard domes?<br>&gt; It seems an obvious solution to the =
waterproofing problem. &nbsp;It would surely<br>&gt; be more expensive =
and not as recyclable, but overall, a much safer and<br>&gt; durable =
structure.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; The material I am speaking of is commonly =
used to print those annoying<br>&gt; signs that are tacked onto =
telephone poles around our cities these days<br>&gt; that say things =
like, &quot;I buy houses for cash&quot;, or, &quot;Two cell phones, =
one<br>&gt; number&quot;. &nbsp;I have also seen this material used for =
lightweight road cases<br>&gt; for audio-visual equipment. &nbsp;It is a =
fairly durable material, UV resistant,<br>&gt; easy to work with, and =
comes in fun colors. &nbsp;Perhaps sign printing<br>&gt; companies would =
be willing to donate their misprints and discards to a<br>&gt; little =
experimentation....<br><br>I like the product, and it is not that =
expensive, compared to polycarbonate. I would use the translucent =
variety as a covering for my dome frames for greenhouse purposes or as a =
valid option to plastic films. The color options are great too. There's =
no problem attaching it to a dome frame. I'm sure a mass produced =
industrial/military application is there. For instance a quickly =
deployed field hospital shelter. Lockheed has just developed a new type =
of these, but it's not too geodesic or synergistic. <br>The brand name =
is Coroplast and you can see it at www.coroplast.com and others such as =
http://www.plasticsonline.com/coroplast/index.html<br>-Ernie,<br>Garden =
Domes etc.<br>[www.gardendome.com]</p>
</font></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_01BD689E.0E37C7A0--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:20:49 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         nicksanspam@ECE.VILL.EDU
Organization: Villanova University
Subject:      Re: Military Cardboard Domes

Brent A. Verrill <Bullywug@AMERICA.NET> wrote:

>Has anyone ever considered using the plastic material which resembles
>currogated cardboard for the construction of the formerly cardboard domes?

Coroplast. About $9/4x8'x1/8" (4 mm) sheet, in white or translucent,
including UV inhibitors.

Nick
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:20:11 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Military Cardboard Domes
Comments: To: nick@ECE.VILL.EDU
Comments: cc: syn-l@teleport.com
In-Reply-To:  <6h31ah$9m4@ufo.ee.vill.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 nicksanspam@ECE.VILL.EDU wrote:
> Brent A. Verrill <Bullywug@AMERICA.NET> wrote:
> >Has anyone ever considered using the plastic material which resembles
> >currogated cardboard for the construction of the formerly cardboard domes?
>
> Coroplast. About $9/4x8'x1/8" (4 mm) sheet, in white or translucent,
> including UV inhibitors.

One sheet (or something similar) could make a useful stencil for carboard
domes.

I go back to carboard, because while $9/sheet isn't that much it's about
$9 more than most homeless people have to spend on a temporary shelter -
and that's what I believe non-industrial domes are useful for.  When domes
are made by the thousands (at least) it won't make sense to use carboard
or coroplast any more; until then, local & free is best.

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:45:12 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Filip De Vos <fidevos@EDUSERV1.RUG.AC.BE>
Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?

John Belt (belt@OSWEGO.EDU) wrote:
:         I would agree that the structure may not be a classic Fuller
: geodesic dome.  But would not agree that the structure is non Fuller/
: Bucky.  The concept of tension and compression as a generalized principle
: was PURE Bucky and he saw it every where even in a blade of grass.
: Tension and Compression as he says "always and only co-exist", in the

I agree that the Millenium dome uses tension/compression better than most.
However, it has interior obstructions (those masts). They take little
place, but why have them when a structure exists that does not need them?
I can't tell whether a geodesic dome should use less material than that
mast-suspended dome? but I wonder...

: material itself at 90 degrees to each other.  Although his use of the
: concept did reveal itself most obviously in the dome which almost

[snip]

: visual, functional and structural levels as does Fuller's work.  Not
: that i dislike much of the international style, there is much i like
: about it and MIES's work.  Too the work of Kenzo Tange and the sweeping
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^
I am happy to find a mention of this architect in this NG(/list). Is there
a good online-source for his work?
I used to have a collection of old 'Natuur & Techniek' magazines, and I
recall there were articles about the German Frei Otto, another architect
who investigated large membrane-structures and human shelter in
unfriendly terrain. I also recall a plan for a stepped inhabited
megastructure, with industry etc inside. Any architects lurking here?

: forms of his work are about tension and compression in bold forms that
: relate to the beautiful tension and compression and fabric forms of
: a sailing ship turned into a land based architectural shelter to serve
: human functions.  Getting the most with the least can be small and light
:


--
      Filip De Vos                        FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be

          There are plenty of ways to empty a solar system.
                       --   John S. Lewis   --
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:10:24 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

fidevos@eduserv1.rug.ac.be (Filip De Vos) wrote:

>megastructure, with industry etc inside. Any architects lurking here?
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^
                                     aka "exterior decorators"

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:32:22 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Brent A. Verrill" <Bullywug@AMERICA.NET>
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?
In-Reply-To:  <6h3us8$nke$1@inf6serv.rug.ac.be>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

> I also recall a plan for a stepped inhabited
>megastructure, with industry etc inside.
>--
>      Filip De Vos                        FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be
>
>          There are plenty of ways to empty a solar system.
>                       --   John S. Lewis   --
Sounds like Paolo Solari's Arcology concept.  Try punching "Arcosanti" into
your favorite search engine.  Not much tension here, though.  Mostly
monolithic concrete structures.

Brent.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:01:58 +0100
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Paul Taylor <ptaylor@TROMBONE.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Greetings from London,


The Millenium WOK* design seems to me sadly retrogressive: a step backwards
from the still under-appreciated innovations of Buckminster Fuller. Each of
its umpteen preposterous concrete masts will apparently weigh 50 tonnes,
which is probably more than the weight of a self-supporting geodesic dome
of similar size. This is called doing less with more.

More disastrous than that is the fact that the colossal expense of its
construction and marketing could have been much more wisely spent on
livingry in various forms: shelter, schools, clinics, research and so on.

What a dismal monument to vanity and self-importance.

It is a perversion of ephemeralization: converting vast resources of
energy, money and creativity into pompous, bloated ephemera.


* Wasteful Obnoxious Knick-knack



Disgustedly yours,


Paul Taylor

The Blowpipes Trombone Trio
http://www.trombone.demon.co.uk
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:30:09 PDT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         725@725.COM
Organization: 893
Subject:      Work From The Comfort Of Your Home!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ATTENTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
+++++++++++++++++WORK FROM HOME+++++++++++++++++++++++++

> Are you aware that there is a serious nationwide
  shortage of people available to work at home as
  Home Employees?

> Are you tired of being poor, broke, living from
  paycheck to paycheck?

< Are you interested in working from home?

In these financially stressful times, everybody
is looking for a way to change their lives for
the better!

BE YOUR OWN BOSS!
SET YOUR OWN HOURS!
WORK IN THE COMFORT OF YOUR OWN HOME!

You can realistically make 10,000 in a few weeks!

For more details send $1 One Dollar and a self addressed stamped envelope
to the name and address shown below, and one of our
agents will send you all the FREE information you will
need to get started making your dreams come true!

SEND SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE AND A BUCK $1
FOR FREE INFO TO:
T.C.Buck
PO BOX 24782
Cleveland,Ohio 44124
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:45:33 -0500
Reply-To:     ega@fastlane.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Ernie Aiken <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Military Cardboard Domes
MIME-Version: 1.0
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> > Brent A. Verrill <Bullywug@AMERICA.NET> wrote:
> Has anyone ever considered using the plastic material which resembles
> currogated cardboard for the construction of the formerly cardboard
domes?
> It seems an obvious solution to the waterproofing problem.  It would
surely
> be more expensive and not as recyclable, but overall, a much safer and
> durable structure.
>
> The material I am speaking of is commonly used to print those annoying
> signs that are tacked onto telephone poles around our cities these days
> that say things like, "I buy houses for cash", or, "Two cell phones, one
> number".  I have also seen this material used for lightweight road cases
> for audio-visual equipment.  It is a fairly durable material, UV
resistant,
> easy to work with, and comes in fun colors.  Perhaps sign printing
> companies would be willing to donate their misprints and discards to a
> little experimentation....

I like the product, and it is not that expensive, compared to
polycarbonate. I would use the translucent variety as a covering for my
dome frames for greenhouse purposes or as a valid option to plastic films.
The color options are great too. There's no problem attaching it to a dome
frame. I'm sure a mass produced industrial/military application is there.
For instance a quickly deployed field hospital shelter. Lockheed has just
developed a new type of these, but it's not too geodesic or synergistic.
The brand name is Coroplast and you can see it at http://www.coroplast.com
and others such as http://www.plasticsonline.com/coroplast/index.html
-Ernie,
Garden Domes etc.
[www.gardendome.com]


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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial"><br><br>&gt; <font size=3D2>&gt; Brent =
A. Verrill &lt;<font color=3D"#0000FF"><u>Bullywug@AMERICA.NET</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">&gt; wrote:<font size=3D2><br>&gt; Has anyone ever =
considered using the plastic material which resembles<br>&gt; currogated =
cardboard for the construction of the formerly cardboard domes?<br>&gt; =
It seems an obvious solution to the waterproofing problem. &nbsp;It =
would surely<br>&gt; be more expensive and not as recyclable, but =
overall, a much safer and<br>&gt; durable structure.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
The material I am speaking of is commonly used to print those =
annoying<br>&gt; signs that are tacked onto telephone poles around our =
cities these days<br>&gt; that say things like, &quot;I buy houses for =
cash&quot;, or, &quot;Two cell phones, one<br>&gt; number&quot;. &nbsp;I =
have also seen this material used for lightweight road cases<br>&gt; for =
audio-visual equipment. &nbsp;It is a fairly durable material, UV =
resistant,<br>&gt; easy to work with, and comes in fun colors. =
&nbsp;Perhaps sign printing<br>&gt; companies would be willing to donate =
their misprints and discards to a<br>&gt; little =
experimentation....<br><br><font size=3D2>I like the product, and it is =
not that expensive, compared to polycarbonate. I would use the =
translucent variety as a covering for my dome frames for greenhouse =
purposes or as a valid option to plastic films. The color options are =
great too. There's no problem attaching it to a dome frame. I'm sure a =
mass produced industrial/military application is there. For instance a =
quickly deployed field hospital shelter. Lockheed has just developed a =
new type of these, but it's not too geodesic or synergistic. <br>The =
brand name is Coroplast and you can see it at http://www.coroplast.com =
and others such as <font =
color=3D"#0000FF"><u>http://www.plasticsonline.com/coroplast/index.html</=
u><font color=3D"#000000"><br>-Ernie,<br>Garden Domes =
etc.<br>[www.gardendome.com]<br><br><font size=3D2><br></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></body></h=
tml>
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=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:36:00 PDT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         prkosuth <prkosuth@MYCHOICE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Military Cardboard Domes
Comments: To: ega@fastlane.net
In-Reply-To:  <199804152342.SAA15530@fastlane.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The point with cardboard domes would be its ability to send out the flat
sheets with the building instructions printed onnto them. This  would then
provide cheap and easy to transport dwellings wherever they need to get to
. I  think that the plastic or cardboard fit to frames would be a less than
optimal solution to what is needed. In one of the Fuller videos I saw it
showed people constructing the cardboard domes with plans and eeveryhting
together.

Paul

----------
>
>
> > From: Brent A. Verrill
> >
> > Has anyone ever considered using the plastic material which resembles
> > currogated cardboard for the construction of the formerly cardboard
> domes?
> > It seems an obvious solution to the waterproofing problem.  It would
> surely
> > be more expensive and not as recyclable, but overall, a much safer and
> > durable structure.
> >
> > The material I am speaking of is commonly used to print those annoying
> > signs that are tacked onto telephone poles around our cities these days
> > that say things like, "I buy houses for cash", or, "Two cell phones, one
> > number".  I have also seen this material used for lightweight road cases
> > for audio-visual equipment.  It is a fairly durable material, UV
> resistant,
> > easy to work with, and comes in fun colors.  Perhaps sign printing
> > companies would be willing to donate their misprints and discards to a
> > little experimentation....
>
> I like the product, and it is not that expensive, compared to
> polycarbonate. I would use the translucent variety as a covering for my
> dome frames for greenhouse purposes or as a valid option to plastic films.
> The color options are great too. There's no problem attaching it to a dome
> frame. I'm sure a mass produced industrial/military application is there.
> For instance a quickly deployed field hospital shelter. Lockheed has just
> developed a new type of these, but it's not too geodesic or synergistic.
> The brand name is Coroplast and you can see it at www.coroplast.com and
> others such as http://www.plasticsonline.com/coroplast/index.html
> -Ernie,
> Garden Domes etc.
> [www.gardendome.com]
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:37:53 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      The 4D Chronicler (homeschooler bulletin, most recent)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

\    /\    /\    /                                  \    /\    /\    /
 \  /  \  /  \  /         The 4D Chronicler          \  /  \  /  \  /
  \/____\/____\/                                      \/____\/____\/
  /\    /\    /\       A Homeschoolers' Bulletin      /\    /\    /\
 /  \  /  \  /  \           by Kirby Urner           /  \  /  \  /  \
/____\/____\/____\__________________________________/____\/____\/____\

=======================================================================
Published whenever            April 1998                Vol 4. No. 1
=======================================================================

THIS ISSUE:  FOCUS ON NEW CURRICULUM

TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.  Math Summit in Oregon          4.  Jay Baldwin and the HyperCar
2.  Festivities in Santa Cruz      5.  The Asian Meltdown (Editorial)
3.  Internet Update                6.  Note from 4D Solutions

Note: if the header looks funny, adjust your font to fixed pitch
=======================================================================

1. Math Summit in Oregon

On October 2nd of last year, heavy hitters from the global math
community showed up in Oregon to powwow around the 21st century
theme of a new Renaissance in math ed.  Sir Roger Penrose,
logician Keith Devlin and dynamical systems theorest Ralph
Abraham were among the illuminati present.

Why Oregon of all places?  Well, according the Dr. Devlin,
Oregon is the new 'state of high tech', like one of those
oil-rich jewels in the Persian Gulf i.e. kuwait:oil::
oregon:electronics.  We call it the Silicon Forest (move
over San Jose!).

Yours trully was present as well, to deliver a workshop in
synergetics entitled 'Beyond Flatland: Geometry for the 21st
Century', complete with webslides on VHS TV (including
Strucktures by de Jong), computer animations (Erickson and
Hawkins), high tech models (R. Chu) and color overheads.
Teachers were talking high frequency jitterbugs within the
hour, pumped to deliver the new material to their 5th graders
back home.  I gave a similar talk to 8th graders in San Jose
last month -- don't want Silicon Valley to fall *too* far
behind.

During the Summit, we previewed some of 'Life By the Numbers'
currently airing on PBS.  As Keith Devlin writes at the MAA
website, the time has come to put old stereotypes about
mathematicians behind us


2. New Curriculum Festivities in Santa Cruz

Digerati converged for April Fool's to knosh snacks and take
stock of some no foolin' new techno-wizardry, organized into
three venues by Bonnie DeVarco, virtual communities
anthropologist.

Nearest the pool, Bruce Damer, author of 'Avatars!', showcased
the interactive design of virtual biota for placement in
on-line worlds, including swoop-around views from the back of a
butterfly of a fantasy island, complete with fractal lightening
and thunder sound effects.

Nearest the fireplace, fresh from JavaOne with some Sun
heavyweights (new friends) attending, Gerald de Jong delivered
a high level discourse on Struckology aka tensegrity
structuring using Struck, a model of beautiful code.  Given the
talent in the audience (e.g. chaos mathematician Ralph
Abraham), we can be sure Gerald's sophisticated presentation
was not lost on all hearers -- with the rest of us free to
admire the screen animations and stunning stills on the two
monitors.

And in the side parlor, video tools of tomorrow, including the
newly affordable pace-setters like Iomega's BuzzBox with fast
SCSI for just $199.  Here is where our leather-clad "old
hippie" sacred geometry couple stripped to the tatoos (well, he
did anyway) and flashed secret symbols via webcam to Russians
monitoring from Lourdes (actually, we only had the one phone
line, and that was monopolized by Bruce and his ActiveWorlds
demo -- but it's the thought that counts, right?). We turned
down the lights for better X-Files effect. Sound wild?  Welcome
to California!

Some of our party who couldn't make it in the flesh showed up
at prearranged coordinates in an ActiveWorld, as Avatars!  John
Braley's had three eyes.  Rick Bono got lost, but managed to
find us long enough to say "Hi!"


3. Internet Update

You may have noticed the BFI website has entered a time warp
and doesn't keep pace with events -- truth to tell, BFI has
never been on the front lines but hopes some will suggest it
served a catalyzing function.  At least some mention of the
January Scientific American article on tensegrity and cell
biology made it to the Events page.  But nothing about the
subsequent article re tensegrity in the American Scientist.
Most obviously missing is a link to Synergetics itself, the
full text of which remains on-line, with each numbered
paragraph anchored, the better to serve as a nets notes
repository for those of us rolling our own.

The Oregon Curriculum Network (my site) mixes links to 'Beyond
Flatland' geometry with more traditional material re the
calculus (e.g. Descartes' Deficit) and new curriculum for the
computer age (we Silicon Foresters place a premium on such
curriculum).  Lets all wave goodbye to the "graphing
calculator" era and give our kids some real computers to play
with! -- a central plank in my platform, as shared via the Math
Forum (check calc-reform and/or links from my Math Learning
Center memo -- Math Makeover has some new links too).


4. Jay Baldwin and the HyperCar

Jay drove two hours each way in his high end Saab sedan to meet
with me in San Jose recently (thanks Jay! -- I was purposely
giving Bay Area public transit a workout, but this would have
been a push).  Jay is the author of 'Bucky Works' (John Wiley
and Sons) and is featured in an earlier edition of this
Chronicler for his work on the pillow dome (part of our meeting
involved excavating an empty drum of Tefzel from the shed out
back -- an event I was pleased to capture on video).

I can't tell you a lot about the HyperCar here, except to say
that Jay and Amory Lovins are collaborating on a vehicle
designed to show off maximized, optimized energy efficiency
values.  A lot of the best ideas will likely be cannibalized
and incorporated into the more inefficient guzzler throwbacks
we consider high tech today, but Jay has some hope of getting
the real HyperCar off the drawing board and out for a test
drive as well.  With his Armani suit, raybans, and 'injun
chief' wiseman looks, he cuts an impressive figure.

Jay has always loved cars and in the days before freeways was
one of the first young New Jerseyites to get a look at an
unspoiled Yellowstone National Park (it took a week each way to
make the drive).  So stricken with the beauty and freedom of
the wild west, he resolved to build a hot rod "escape pod" for
rocketing westward for good -- which is exactly what he did,
making his story an all-American classic.


5. The Asian Meltdown (Editorial)

Walden Bello, former director of Food First, and contributing
editor to the internet-based Focus on Trade, published out of
Bangkok, provides some telling analysis of the Korean economy
-- a case study in what happens when strong native talent is
sacrificed to the short term moneymaking urge.

Instead of reinvesting in curriculum and working at cutting
edge problems, Korean inventiveness was sidelined as MBA types
reaped a cash bonanza and ploughed it into luxury resorts,
condos, and flashy vehicles for themselves.  That kept Korea
reliant on parts and designs from overseas, primarily from
Japan, with a lower total budget for R&D than giant IBM's alone.

As Dr. Richard Meier of UC Berkeley points out, this kind of
over-dependence is completely unnecessary, as his Korean
students were among the most creative he has ever encountered
in his long career as an engineer and globally-aware planner.

The lessons for the USA are obvious.  The lure of easy money at
the expense of doing the hard work of serious R&D is an age-old
problem.  As capital controllers squeeze out longer term values
in search of continued 20% growth for their already over-
inflated portfolios, long term planners will inevitably team up
with capitalists more vested in their personal reputations for
wisdom and industry than in a talent for keeping piggy backers
rolling in dough.

Public offerings to share profits with a leisure class of so-
called capitalists who take a "life owes me" approach should
not be taken for granted.  The stock market was never designed
to be an entitlements program and the percentage of pension
funds committed to risk capital accounts (i.e. stocks) is not a
figure for which the USA government is accountable i.e. no
FDIC-like bailout of failed venture capital investment schemes
was ever a part of the USA's public mandate.

When the underlying problem that needs to be addressed is sheer
ignorance and neglect of vital R&D, then the old doors to top
management in the securities business may close for remodeling,
and reopen only through a serious commitment to learning some
new ropes.  Perhaps Asia has a head start on taking this
ancient market dynamic to heart, while the USA's most gullible
simply refuse to read the writing on the wall, thinking the
global economy is somehow permenantly enslaved to Wall Street's
bull-minded (a dangerous, self-indulgent fiction, as many Wall
Streeters will be the first to admit).

A track record of simply being "motivated by money" may not be
the ticket for much longer (certainly Korea is learning this
lesson the hard way) -- which short term fixation can lead to a
lot of irrelevant "twitch game" reflexes, as when a kid majors
in some videogame and then finds it's been taken off the
market, as inevitably happens eventually.  Life moves on.


6. Note from 4D Solutions

Thanks to all who keep in touch, share tidbits. This
communication is distributed free via the internet by 4D
Solutions, a private solutions provider based in Portland,
Oregon. Kirby Urner is responsible for the content and any
inaccuracies or omissions should be brought to his attention.
Email your news and comments to: pdx4d@teleport.com

This and back issues archived at:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/4dchron.html


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:44:21 -0800
Reply-To:     bward@metro.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Bruce Ward <bward@METRO.NET>
Organization: chh yeh right…
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

A WOK, huh?

Saw the construction site from the Times Mirror cam.  You mean that
cluster of columns in the middle of the field is to hold the thing up?
(I would normally NEVER use the term "up" relative to anything of
Bucky's, but then…  )

Oh, well.  I'll have to check back in on it now and again as
construction progresses (?).

Thanks.  More than I wanted to know.   ;<)
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:50:50 GMT
Reply-To:     dcohen@danielcohen.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Daniel Cohen <dcohen@DANIELCOHEN.COM>
Organization: Daniel Cohen Autographs
Subject:      WEB SITE
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello,

I would like to invite you all to check out my fully-interactive
Autograph & Memorabilia Web Site at:

http://www.danielcohen.com

Here you will find hundreds of autographs and signed photos of all of
your favourite stars of Film, Television and Music from the past,
present and future!

You can register for my free update E-mailing list, as well as submit
your requests for items that you desire.  I have thousands of items in
my inventory to choose from.

Thank you for your time,

Daniel Cohen
dcohen@danielcohen.com

http://www.danielcohen.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:27:51 PDT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "ADULTS ONLY!! ADULTS ONLY!!!!"@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Organization: Email Platinum v.3.1b
Subject:      WAIT WAIT WAIT HOT CELEB PICS

                 LOOK WHAT I  FOUND!!!!!!!

http://pics.xxxhosting.net/celebs.html


TIRED OF THOSE SITES WITH CLICK HERE 1,000 PICS OF CELEBS FUCKED UP THE ASS
AND ITS TO ANOTHER BULLSHIT LINK!!!!!
WELL TRY   http://pics.xxxhosting.net/celebs.html   This site has 69 free pics
every day
and its fast as hell!!!!!!!!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:17:02 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Re: WAIT WAIT WAIT HOT CELEB PICS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

am I the only one getting this crap on this list?  Is there a way to ban
these fools?

-----Original Message-----
From: "ADULTS ONLY!! ADULTS ONLY!!!!"@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <"ADULTS
ONLY!! ADULTS ONLY!!!!"@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Saturday, April 18, 1998 4:00 PM
Subject: WAIT WAIT WAIT HOT CELEB PICS


>                 LOOK WHAT I  FOUND!!!!!!!
>
>http://pics.xxxhosting.net/celebs.html
>
>
>TIRED OF THOSE SITES WITH CLICK HERE 1,000 PICS OF CELEBS FUCKED UP THE ASS
>AND ITS TO ANOTHER BULLSHIT LINK!!!!!
>WELL TRY   http://pics.xxxhosting.net/celebs.html   This site has 69 free
pics
>every day
>and its fast as hell!!!!!!!!
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:18:32 PDT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         1494@1494.COM
Organization: 918
Subject:      WIN $100 CASH www.myED.com

            FREE WEBSITES TO THE PUBLIC

  BUILD IT WITH OUR WEBSITE BUILDER AND WIN $100.00!

          BEST SITE OUT OF FIRST 50 WINS

               http://www.myED.com


Thank You,
The Everything Directory
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:20:04 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Filip De Vos <fidevos@EDUSERV1.RUG.AC.BE>
Organization: University of Ghent, Belgium
Subject:      Re: new dome in London?

Kirby Urner (pdx4d@teleport.com) wrote:
: fidevos@eduserv1.rug.ac.be (Filip De Vos) wrote:

: >megastructure, with industry etc inside. Any architects lurking here?
:                                               ^^^^^^^^^^
:                                      aka "exterior decorators"

I used the word 'architect' while still in awe of Frei Otto, Kiyonori
Kikutake, who are described as such, and yes Bucky, but of course, there
is a rather substantial difference between them and the 'ordinary'
variant!

Thanks for pointing this out.

Oh, and Norman Foster and I M Pei come to mind too.

--
      Filip De Vos                        FilipPC.DeVos@rug.ac.be

          There are plenty of ways to empty a solar system.
                       --   John S. Lewis   --
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:27:19 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         hgrcorpvgreenstuff@EMAIL.COM
Organization: Success Pte Ltd
Subject:      -Easy money better than MLM!

****************************************************************
*    This Article was Posted By an unregistered version of:    *
*                    Newsgroup AutoPoster 95                   *
*       Send email address for info! Fax: +46-31-470588        *
****************************************************************
HONEST "PEOPLE HELPING PEOPLE" OPPORTUNITY
100 TIMES MORE EFFECTIVE THAN MLM!

Could YOU use an extra $3,000, $5,000 or
MAYBE $10,000 in the next 2 weeks?

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COMPARED TO OTHER MLM'S:
     1.  It is so much easier to start.
     2.  You don't need to continually monitor or work it.
     3.  One time, very small initial investment.
     4.  Very high response rate.
     5.  Fantastic return on investment.
     6.  Perfectly legal.

PLEASE TAKE THREE MINUTES TO FIND OUT HOW!

THIS IS THE FASTEST, EASIEST PROGRAM you will ever do.
Complete it in less than ONE HOUR and you will never forget
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Cindy Allen tells how she ran this gift summation four
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PEOPLE HELPING OTHER PEOPLE!


1.   MRA Consultants
     761 Amsterdam Road
     Dept.  #1
     Mt. Laurel, NJ  08054-3201

2.   Picasso Chen
     Blk 611
     Ang Mo Kio Aveune 5
     #11-2805
     Singapore 560611

3.   Simon Tan
     Blk 4
     Hill View Ave
     #03-1090
     Singapore 661004
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:27:11 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bucky mention
Comments: To: "Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@tnc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Ken,

Thanks for the reference.  I'm taking the liberty of forwarding a copy of
this reply to the Geodesic List on the assumption that there are probably
others who may be interested in your contribution.

Thanks again,

Joe

PS: Please note that my email address has been simplified (shorter) by my
provider.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken G. Brown <kbrown@tnc.com>
To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Date: Thursday, April 16, 1998 12:19 PM
Subject: Bucky mention


>page 206 - bit about Bucky dedicating his life to attending to things that
>would not otherwise get done
>
>Wherever You Go There You Are -Mindfulness Meditation in Everyday Life
>   -Jon Kabat-Zinn
>ISBN 0-7868-8070-8
>1994 Hyperion, New York
>
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:57:29 -0800
Reply-To:     bward@metro.net
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From:         Bruce Ward <bward@METRO.NET>
Organization: chh yeh right…
Subject:      dome kit sort of
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Hi All,

I recently acquired  the frame for a geodesic greenhouse.
The struts are 1.25" conduit, mashed and drilled on the ends.  A couple
I met had disassembled it a few years ago on a demolition job and 'kept
all the pieces'.  I bought it as a pile of tubing behind their barn.
I'd like to turn it into a greenhouse behind My barn.   :<)

So far, I've sorted it into piles of matching lengths measured from
center to center of the drilled holes.  The lengths, and number of
struts per are:

10 at 39-13/16"
19 at 40"
 5 at 41-1/2"
 7 at 46-3/4"
65 at 47"
30 at 47-5/8"
10 at 49-1/4"
 7 at 49-13/16"
24 at 50"                       for a total of 187 with 9 distinct lengths.

Anybody know how to figure out what I have and what the pattern is?
I'm guessing that with 9 lengths it might be 5-frequency, but have no
clue to the breakdown.  I'm flyin' blind here.  I'm fascinated by but
not yet conversant in Synergetic geometry.  Any help would be
appreciated.

Thanks
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:14:35 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
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From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Re: dome kit sort of
Comments: To: bward@metro.net
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Assuming it's a section of a regular icosahedral geodesic, my guess is it's
part of the top 5 faces of a 5 frequency geodesic. Given the variety of
lengths, 5 frequency seems right. However, I can't tell if it's regular from
the length of the struts - the hole-to-hole distance is what's important.

A five frequency geodesic contains 25 subfaces per icosahedral face. The "top"
contains 125 triangles. Since each is made up of three struts, and each strut
is shared by two triangles, the strut-to-triangle ration is 3/2 (roughly,
because the bottom triangles of the dome aren't shared.

    125*(3/2) = 187.5

A little too close form me since the bottom row didn't have to be fudged out.
This is probably not the answer since the resulting dome would feel very wide
and flat - unless it was used as a low ground covering... And it'd be big - the
radius of the cover would average about 14'.

My next guess would be a lower frequency dome which was distorted. Either that
or you're missing some pieces.

- Dave

Bruce Ward wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I recently acquired  the frame for a geodesic greenhouse.
> The struts are 1.25" conduit, mashed and drilled on the ends.  A couple
> I met had disassembled it a few years ago on a demolition job and 'kept
> all the pieces'.  I bought it as a pile of tubing behind their barn.
> I'd like to turn it into a greenhouse behind My barn.   :<)
>
> So far, I've sorted it into piles of matching lengths measured from
> center to center of the drilled holes.  The lengths, and number of
> struts per are:
>
> 10 at 39-13/16"
> 19 at 40"
>  5 at 41-1/2"
>  7 at 46-3/4"
> 65 at 47"
> 30 at 47-5/8"
> 10 at 49-1/4"
>  7 at 49-13/16"
> 24 at 50"                       for a total of 187 with 9 distinct lengths.
>
> Anybody know how to figure out what I have and what the pattern is?
> I'm guessing that with 9 lengths it might be 5-frequency, but have no
> clue to the breakdown.  I'm flyin' blind here.  I'm fascinated by but
> not yet conversant in Synergetic geometry.  Any help would be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks



--

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:14:25 +0100
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From:         Goncalo Lacerda-Machado <Goncalo_Lacerda-Machado@MAPINFO.COM>
Subject:      Czech Map Projection
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi all,

Can any one help me with this.

I am looking for the parameters for the Czech Krovak Oblique Conformal
Conical Projection.  I need to add this projection to MapInfo Professional.

Thank you in advance,

Goncalo Lacerda-Machado
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:52:43 GMT
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From:         JustWINK <justwink@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      Re: Geodesic Dome

Simon,

Bucky appropriated the term "geodesic" from mathematics,
where it has a fairly precise meaning quite far from what
we call geodesic domes.

A geodesic is a line embedded in a manifold that is a kind of
path of least resistance.  When a large mass bends space-time
the path that light follows is a geodesic.  The shortest path on
the surface of a sphere from a place to another is a geodesic.
>From this point of view there are almost no geodesic domes at all.

I believe that there is simply no exact meaning for the
phrase within the structural sciences and you may generally use it
as you wish.  It easy to warp the definition to include an outhouse,
should you wish to.

Your example of an inflatable cut from panels is perhaps more
"geodesic" in the math sense than any of the plywood&2x4 domes
that clutter the landscape, or any of the notable examples usually
used as examples.  The great circle tents are perhaps very geodesic.

Most geodesics, I feel, are constructed out of an emotional allegiance
to a principle that would best be applied to much larger structures.  I
won't go into my standard rant now, and I am happy for people to live
in whatever form of structure pleases them, but I wish people would
quite pointing to these wooden dome-homes as examples of what
Bucky was all about.  Yes, I know he "lived" in one, but my take on his
work tells me that this is not at all what he had in mind.  I find the
work of Baer and his zomes much more interesting, efficient and
attractive than virtually any of the similar domes I know of.

Just a personal opinion...

Wink
www.winkworks.com

How many dyslexics does it change to take a light bulb?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:29:57 -0500
Reply-To:     foxfire13@geocities.com
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From:         Fox Fire <foxfire13@GEOCITIES.COM>
Organization: Planet Digital Network Technologies
Subject:      Re: Geodesic Dome
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RE: sentences below. "Bucky claimed that all real spheres are actually
very high frequency icosahedra with tiny triangular faces." BuckyWorks,
J. Baldwin - Pg. 77.
- Curt Flowers


JustWINK wrote:
>
> Simon,
. . .
< Cjf: Deletions made to get to the sentances I want to comment about.
the deleted stuff is, however, good >
. . .
>The shortest path on
> the surface of a sphere from a place to another is a geodesic.
> From this point of view there are almost no geodesic domes at all.
. . .
> Just a personal opinion...
>
> Wink
> www.winkworks.com
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:25:06 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Civil disobedience has sometimes helped highlight a social
malpractice.  Used in strategic ways, it's a kind of diagnostic
tool, giving observers a quick view of social ills that might
have otherwise not been so easy to detect -- like an x-ray.

I've filed memoranda at my website requesting the blessings
of the US Department of Education for civil disobediance
exercises around math class, designed to be educational for
both teachers and students alike.  Of course the request was
denied, but just asking was sufficient for my purposes,
as a professional propagandist and agitator.

Our Math Makeover civil action scenarios involve well-dressed
older youth following their leaders (perhaps teachers in some
classrooms) out of math class some 20 minutes before the bell
rings, to some pre-arranged gathering point for the purpose of
hearing short speeches (written by the participants) -- no arm
bands, "Buck U." T-shirts discouraged (no such 'Buckminster
Fuller University' exists).

What we're fighting for is the right to break out of an older,
obsolete curriculum which under-appreciates the power of
mathematics to bring about positive developments in our lives.
We regard our present living standards as artificially low,
because as long as a lot of people are starving to death on
this planet, we're being ripped off of an opportunity, well
within reach, to live on a planet that doesn't treat so many
of its indigenous humans so heedlessly and neglectfully, to
the detriment of all concerned (me too).

People with a serious grasp of the mathematics involved
understand this point, and also that we don't have unlimited
time in which to indulge in our negligence.  Given the tools
at our disposal (TV, internet, film), we could be raising living
standards significantly, in various dramatic ways.  But because
we sit around waiting for politicians to lead the way, we go
nowhere, because politicians haven't the time to update their
thinking either, are mired in the old ways of doing business,
just like so many of the teachers.

We think that by organizing a campaign which includes civil
disobediance, we may have a better chance of bringing attention
to the sorry state of our academics, our mathematics in particular,
which although supposedly about improving human prospects, is
too often about just "going through the motions" while meanwhile
ignoring some of the best ideas and potentials now in our shared
inventory.

The other purpose in putting all this on the web is to document
for historians that a segment of the population was aware and
getting prepared for a more successful chapter.  This will be
useful later, when people whine about how no one was providing
any advance notice of future directions.  Not so.  A lot of us
were on the front lines back then, designing and/or procuring
assets, investing in capital ventures, and setting up security
systems to keep the show on the road for the long haul.  These
operations were open, public, democratic and grass-roots.  If
most journalists weren't paying attention (some were), that's
not our problem.

See:

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/makeover0.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/makeover1.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gst1.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/terms.html#design
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/usdepted.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/pr.html

Kirby
4D Solutions


PS:  if you explore my website in detail, you'll find other memos
where I suggest the aforementioned civil disobedience maneuvers
may not be necessary, given the dramatic victories we're experiencing
even without this useful tool.  The Math Makeover of 1998 is
barreling ahead as planned, without any significant setbacks
to date.  The kids are getting a clue.

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:02:07 -0700
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From:         Tarkaan <osiris@NET-LINK.NET>
Organization: http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Kirby Urner wrote:
>
> What we're fighting for is the right to break out of an older,
> obsolete curriculum which under-appreciates the power of
> mathematics to bring about positive developments in our lives.

blah, blah, blah.  To change math, do the following:

1. Write a textbook.
2. Sell it to a lot of people.

Bingo-bango, you've changed math.  For christ's sake, people, find
something useful to protest against.  I know mommy and daddy fought
against the bomb and the war and all that, but they had something to
fight for.  Civil Disobedience in this case is just finding an excuse to
have a protest about something.

Go protest the fact that Poland can get into NATO and Bulgaria can't, or
the fact that an Anthrax vaccine has existed since the 70s and we've
never used it, protest the fact that the United States hasn't paid their
dues to the UN since the Reagan administration, but MATHEMATICS???

For christ's sake, people.  Find a better cause.

<This really pissed me off, so if you want to stop reading, do so.  I
can be pretty vulgar at times.  Ask Konopak.>

You people think it's so easy..."CHANGE EDUCATION!!" the rallying cry is
heard from the rooftops of Libretarians, Republicans, and Democrats
alike, but you really, honestly and truly, in your hearts, don't give a
flying fuck at a rolling doughnut, do you?  You don't care.

*I* CARE, FOR FUCK'S SAKE.  Education in the united States of America
today is in a right state of affairs, and *I* am willing to do something
about it.

Things I am *NOT* doing about the sorry state of American education:

1. Writing my congressman.
2. Walking out of math class.
3. Picketing a school.
4. writing letters to the editor.

Things I *AM* doing about the sorry state of American education:

Devoting MY LIFE - MY CAREER - MY TIME ON THIS PLANET - to the education
of children.  Do you realize how easy it would be for me to get an MBA
instead of a MEd?  Do you realize the SALARY DIFFERENCE???  I could make
so much fucking money doing something else and just shouting from the
sidelines, but I FUCKING CARE, GOD DAMN IT.  MY SENSE OF CIVIC DUTY SAYS
"GO INTO THE FIELD - CHANGE LIVES - MAKE EDUCATION BETTER BECAUSE YOU
CAN DO BETTER THAN THE PEOPLE THAT TAUGHT YOU!"

And you stupid fucking morons who think you can just walk around and
bitch, bitch, bitch can get FUCKED.  The GOVERNMENT is not educating
your children, PEOPLE are.  Step on the field, my friends, join Big
Brothers/Big Sisters, volunteer at a Headstart preschool or Elementary
school.

Or better yet, become an education scholar - write a textbook, make
curriculum models, maybe even join the School Board - those people don't
have Ed degrees, they're just normal American citizens - Citizens that
CARE.

OR you could go straight onto the firing line - get your certification
and become a teacher - it's simple in most states if you already have a
Master's degree.  It only takes a couple of years.  Sure, the pay is
shit and you start drinking Maalox straight out of the bottle, but YOU
are going TOE-TO-TOE with the people that make education shit - your
colleagues, the administration, the board, popular culture, AMERICA'S
YOUTH...

Or you can write your little manifestos about walking out of math class
in support of better academics.  That's fucking helpful.

GET INVOLVED -- OR GO HOME.

Leave the society-changing to the people who have the balls (or
equivilent) to actually step up to the plate.

-- Brian Ream                                         Leicester, England
-- mailto:osiris@net-link.net            http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:31:46 -0400
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From:         John & Linda VanSickle <vansickl@EROLS.COM>
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Tarkaan wrote:
>
> Kirby Urner wrote:
> >
> > What we're fighting for is the right to break out of an older,
> > obsolete curriculum which under-appreciates the power of
> > mathematics to bring about positive developments in our lives.
>
> blah, blah, blah.  To change math, do the following:

<well-deserved keyboard-lashing snipped>

Don't hold back on us, Tarkaan:  Tell us how you really feel.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:18:40 GMT
Reply-To:     e_l_green@hotmail.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Eric Lee Green <e_l_green@HOTMAIL.COM>
Organization: INTERNET AMERICA
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:25:06 GMT, Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
>of the US Department of Education for civil disobediance
>exercises around math class, designed to be educational for

Math class is not a political exercise. Mathematics doesn't care
whether you're liberal or conservative, white or black. Mathematics is.

What belongs in a mathematics class is mathematics, not social studies
(which is what civil disobedience is).

 -- Eric Lee Green    e_l_green@hotmail.com
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Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 06:45:36 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Tarkaan <osiris@net-link.net> wrote:

>blah, blah, blah.  To change math, do the following:
>
>1. Write a textbook.

Or do websites.

>2. Sell it to a lot of people.
>

Websites free (once internet access established).

>Go protest the fact that Poland can get into NATO and Bulgaria can't, or
>the fact that an Anthrax vaccine has existed since the 70s and we've
>never used it, protest the fact that the United States hasn't paid their
>dues to the UN since the Reagan administration, but MATHEMATICS???
>

Yes.  This is a useful opening for some new curriculum concepts.
People don't expect math to be at issue, hence some strategic
surprise value blah blah blah (I've gone over this a million
times, though maybe not in this newsgroup).

>For christ's sake, people.  Find a better cause.
>
><This really pissed me off, so if you want to stop reading, do so.  I
>can be pretty vulgar at times.  Ask Konopak.>
>

Doesn't bother me.

>Things I am *NOT* doing about the sorry state of American education:
>
>1. Writing my congressman.

Nor I.

>2. Walking out of math class.

Even if the math teacher suggests this as an exercise?

>3. Picketing a school.

Boring.

>4. writing letters to the editor.
>

Maybe sometimes, but the editor of what?

>Things I *AM* doing about the sorry state of American education:
>
>Devoting MY LIFE - MY CAREER - MY TIME ON THIS PLANET - to the education
>of children.  Do you realize how easy it would be for me to get an MBA
>instead of a MEd?  Do you realize the SALARY DIFFERENCE???  I could make
>so much fucking money doing something else and just shouting from the
>sidelines, but I FUCKING CARE, GOD DAMN IT.  MY SENSE OF CIVIC DUTY SAYS
>"GO INTO THE FIELD - CHANGE LIVES - MAKE EDUCATION BETTER BECAUSE YOU
>CAN DO BETTER THAN THE PEOPLE THAT TAUGHT YOU!"
>

Likely you can, if you apply yourself.

>And you stupid fucking morons who think you can just walk around and
>bitch, bitch, bitch can get FUCKED.  The GOVERNMENT is not educating
>your children, PEOPLE are.  Step on the field, my friends, join Big
>Brothers/Big Sisters, volunteer at a Headstart preschool or Elementary
>school.
>

I'm not into whining either.

>Or better yet, become an education scholar - write a textbook, make

Websites free.

>curriculum models, maybe even join the School Board - those people don't
>have Ed degrees, they're just normal American citizens - Citizens that
>CARE.
>
>OR you could go straight onto the firing line - get your certification
>and become a teacher - it's simple in most states if you already have a
>Master's degree.  It only takes a couple of years.  Sure, the pay is
>shit and you start drinking Maalox straight out of the bottle, but YOU
>are going TOE-TO-TOE with the people that make education shit - your
>colleagues, the administration, the board, popular culture, AMERICA'S
>YOUTH...
>
>Or you can write your little manifestos about walking out of math class
>in support of better academics.  That's fucking helpful.
>

You misinterpret.  I've taught high school math through calculus, worked
in a group home as a tutor, done service for the public schools as an
instructor for talented and gifted kids.  I've poured any amount of
my free time into voluntary efforts to lay the groundwork for the
curriculum I'm going on about, in collaboration with many dedicated
others.  We're ready to support kids in making a better future.  A 20
minute walkout is a very tame exercise and not worth all this knee-jerk
shouting.

>GET INVOLVED -- OR GO HOME.
>
>Leave the society-changing to the people who have the balls (or
>equivilent) to actually step up to the plate.
>

So, are you?  I haven't seen you hit anything yet.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 06:34:06 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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e_l_green@hotmail.com (Eric Lee Green) wrote:

>Math class is not a political exercise. Mathematics doesn't care
>whether you're liberal or conservative, white or black. Mathematics is.
>

I agree math doesn't care about race. But mathematical reasoning
IS used to drive policy-making.

Also, mathematicians have been known to engage in politics,
sometimes for the purpose of stopping curriculum trends they
didn't like.

Mathematics changes.

>What belongs in a mathematics class is mathematics, not social studies
>(which is what civil disobedience is).
>

This particular program of civil disobedience was characterized
more as a 'diagnostic tool' in my original post -- more of a medical
procedure, like putting radioactive tracers in a system to show where
the blockages might be.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:01:08 -0700
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From:         Tarkaan <osiris@NET-LINK.NET>
Organization: http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Kirby Urner wrote:
>
> Yes.  This is a useful opening for some new curriculum concepts.
> People don't expect math to be at issue, hence some strategic
> surprise value blah blah blah (I've gone over this a million
> times, though maybe not in this newsgroup).

You don't understand.  There are WAYS of getting new curricula
introduced.  It happens every day, a million times over.  Education
is always trying variations or new things.  That's how Chicago Math
was born into existence.

> You misinterpret.  I've taught high school math through calculus, worked
> in a group home as a tutor, done service for the public schools as an
> instructor for talented and gifted kids.  I've poured any amount of
> my free time into voluntary efforts to lay the groundwork for the
> curriculum I'm going on about, in collaboration with many dedicated
> others.  We're ready to support kids in making a better future.  A 20
> minute walkout is a very tame exercise and not worth all this knee-jerk
> shouting.

So you want to walk out of class...for what?  Legislators don't approve
curriculums in most cases -- committees do.  DESIGN the curriculum you
want, GIVE it to a committee, and if it's actually a good idea, they
will incorporate some or all of your ideas into a sound math curriculum.

That makes perfect sense to me, and it doesn't involve walking out of a
class to hear rhetorical speeches from ameteur mathematical
philosophers.  It's the real deal, my friend.  Go through the proper
channels before you do all of this surrogate identity bullshit.

If your curriculum is so good, a walkout is not required -- all you need
is the support of the people who make the decisions.  Again, if your
curriculum is any better than the ones that exist, that won't be hard to
find.

> So, are you?  I haven't seen you hit anything yet.

Am I?  Involved?  Uhhh, Kirby, I can't get a job next semester because
I have to attend classes all day, every day, in order to complete my
certification.  Which means I live like a pauper.  I've had job offers
upwards of 40k a year that I could take IMMEDIATELY...comfortable desk
jobs, mind you.  So yeah.  I'm involved.

Like I say, man, if your stuff works, go to it.  Send it to people, and
if they like it, they'll use it.

"Brute force is the last resort of the incompetent" - I think that
applies here.

-- Brian Ream                                         Leicester, England
-- mailto:osiris@net-link.net            http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:06:48 +0300
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         honey-info@HONEYBIOTICS.CO.IL
Subject:      Honeybiotics
Comments: To: geodesic@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="divider"

--divider
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


Dear sir or Madame,

I have come across your internet site while looking for potential
channels of distribution for a new line of products manufactured in
Israel for the alternative medicine market.

This unique line of special-purpose medical honey, Honeybiotics, has
had a remarkable success in Israel. Consequently, we are currently
exploring various avenues to export it worldwide.

Honeybiotics product line may be viewed at: http://www.honeybiotics.co.il
Since it seems to me at a first glance that Honeybiotics may fit well
with the line of products shown in your site, I would greatly
appreciate your opinion on the prospects of our products in the
alternative medicine market in your country.

If, having reviewed our products, you wish to have further
information, kindly let me know. We would, however, appreciate any
feedback and comments that you may be kind enough to share with us.

Very respectfully yours,


Yigal Manor
OTC Medical Ltd.
mailto:honey-info@honeybiotics.co.il




--divider--
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:24:43 -0400
Reply-To:     Kevin <compumagic@iname.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kevin <compumagic@INAME.COM>
Subject:      Preventing unwanted SPAM on this list
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Perhaps if the email address was not listed such that a web robot spider
could read it, then we would see less of this stuff.... All you have to do
is insert a SPACE around the @ symbol on the page.

-----Original Message-----
From: honey-info@HONEYBIOTICS.CO.IL <honey-info@HONEYBIOTICS.CO.IL>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 2:20 PM
Subject: Honeybiotics


>
>Dear sir or Madame,
>
>I have come across your internet site while looking for potential
>channels of distribution for a new line of products manufactured in
>Israel for the alternative medicine market.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:47:24 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Tarkaan <osiris@net-link.net> wrote:

>You don't understand.  There are WAYS of getting new curricula
>introduced.  It happens every day, a million times over.  Education
>is always trying variations or new things.  That's how Chicago Math
>was born into existence.
>

Civil disobedience has played a role in getting our curriculum
to where it is today.  When I was in college some students staged
a protest every day at noon over the university's investments in
South Africa, then still under an apartheid regime.  From what I
could see, this was a curriculum exercise, taking the course
readings seriously and taking action.

>From the mathematics I read, I see pathways to a brighter, more
freeing tomorrow that are getting actively explored by only a
few, largely because no one bothers to clue the kids about other
options -- teachers too busy trying to meet "the standards".
Time to take action (the walkout is a very small part of it and,
as I said in my original post, probably not necessary given all
the success stories piling up).

Ole Roemer (1644-1710) figured out about light having a top speed
and yet look how long it took before his discoveries managed to
wend their way into the core of physics.  Just having good info
is no guarantee it'll get used, minus people having much context
for it.  Having fast global communications doesn't ensure a positive
outcome either, just eliminates many old-standby excuses for failure.

>So you want to walk out of class...for what?  Legislators don't approve
>curriculums in most cases -- committees do.  DESIGN the curriculum you
>want, GIVE it to a committee, and if it's actually a good idea, they
>will incorporate some or all of your ideas into a sound math curriculum.
>

A lot of it has to do with big picture priorities.  Kids need a lot
better access to fancy technology than they're getting, in an
educational context, and without necessarily having to join a
military or para-military service.

My company has a hard time finding qualified recruits for doing the
kind of thinking we need to get the job done.  They've never heard
of synergetics for example, much less studied it -- meaning they have
to be retrained. It'd be so much easier, and lead to faster promotions,
if we could get a curriculum that does some of this homework ahead
of time.  Doesn't have to be in the USA of course, if Chicago Math
just too solidly entrenched.

>That makes perfect sense to me, and it doesn't involve walking out of a
>class to hear rhetorical speeches from ameteur mathematical
>philosophers.  It's the real deal, my friend.  Go through the proper
>channels before you do all of this surrogate identity bullshit.
>

The speeches are to be written by the participants -- I met with some
kids at the AFSC about the Math Makeover last year and my account
of that meeting was among the web pages listed in my first post.

Many leading lights in the math department want a better blend of
literacies (numeracy woven throughout), a more Renaissance-like
cross-displinary curriculum.  So having kids learning to mix math
and polemics is on target, as far as top-level math heads are
concerned.

This was Keith Devlin's line at the Oregon Math Summit. Sir Roger
Penrose, Ralph Abraham and Ivars Peterson were also present. I have
a write-up of this summit at:

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/mathsummit.html

But front-liner teachers have little time to think creatively like
that these days, given all the standardized testing and the emphasis
parents put on junior scoring well.

I'm not using a surrogate identity BTW.  Like I said, this campaign
is being conducted out in the open, in the public domain. This is
not a clandestine or covert operation.

>If your curriculum is so good, a walkout is not required -- all you need
>is the support of the people who make the decisions.  Again, if your
>curriculum is any better than the ones that exist, that won't be hard to
>find.
>

Like I said in the PS of my original post, civil disobedience may
not be necessary.  But I want kids to see they have the inalienable
right, and a proud heritage to back them up, to exercise their
better judgement in this way, if the foot-dragging continues.
If you don't know what A and B modules are by 8th grade, there's
something seriously messed up about the curriculum your school
is pushing, is our view.

>> So, are you?  I haven't seen you hit anything yet.
>
>Am I?  Involved?  Uhhh, Kirby, I can't get a job next semester because
>I have to attend classes all day, every day, in order to complete my
>certification.  Which means I live like a pauper.  I've had job offers
>upwards of 40k a year that I could take IMMEDIATELY...comfortable desk
>jobs, mind you.  So yeah.  I'm involved.
>

Or are preparing to become involved.  Maybe you'll stay in touch.

>Like I say, man, if your stuff works, go to it.  Send it to people, and
>if they like it, they'll use it.
>

People fear stepping out of line and what this could mean to their
careers.  The advanced group is working to take a lot of the risk
out of this new curriculum, which means getting it to appear,
already well-oiled and working, in many real world contexts.

Academia has allowed itself to become extremely specialized, you
probably realize, which means the "not my responsibility" syndrome
is rather prevalent.  Like, you might think philosophy departments
would be spearheading this campaign, given its core curriculum
implications.  But 'philosophy' has been reduced to one more
specialty, as disconnected from the grand scheme of things as
any other.  But yes, I've definitely been "going through channels"
with the philosophy department as well.

Part of what this curriculum is about is restoring more comprehensive
points of view, math-informed, to our leadership.  It's been an uphill
battle for many decades (long before I joined the fray).  Now all
that work is finally starting to pay off, big time.

>"Brute force is the last resort of the incompetent" - I think that
>applies here.
>

We're not talking "brute force" here.  But you're obviously too
buried in compulsory studies to have any time to really figure out
what we're up to, even though it's all accessible.  And it'll
only get worse, as you get weighed down with grading and lesson
planning.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:58:46 -0400
Reply-To:     as691454@bcm.tmc.edu
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Alexandr Stepanov <as691454@BCM.TMC.EDU>
Organization: Baylor
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Tarkaan wrote:
>
> Kirby Urner wrote:
> blah, blah, blah.  To change math, do the following:
>
> 1. Write a textbook.

        Or translate foreign ones. The good use for the results of
international comparative studies of education! I can help with
translating of Russian ones, I've used them to teach my 4 years old
daughter to add and subtract, and I am impressed how easy this immense
task have been deconstructed into elementary ones. The pace is as
follows:
1-st grade - numbers from 0 to 1000, operations <>-+, Kilograms, meters,
litres, calculation with parentheses
2-nd grade multiplication, dividing, equations, square meter....
...
till integrals and stereometry in the 10-th grade.

> 2. Sell it to a lot of people.

        Preferably to school board members, especially those with advanced
degrees in the subject in order to let them make up their mind without
middleman. Many not distinguished, not tested textbooks might only
puzzle people. But "Russian 1-st grade  math. the 38-th edition 1.5
millions printed", or "Sweden physics n-th grade m-th edition" together
with international ratings of corresponding countries will probably do
the job.

> You people think it's so easy..."CHANGE EDUCATION!!"

        Yes it is. In Russia the transition from the US style "liberal
education" to traditional (copied after the most prestigeous and
expensive czarist schools) was done in a couple of years starting in
1936 when the government've realized there will be a war soon and
colledges just don't have plenty of good applicants and a supply of
American engineers is sharply running out due to the end of the Great
depression. The WWII has been won and there was a Sputnik in 1957.
        The head of the US Academy of sciences Alberts complains that in the US
school reform takes decades of cajoling while in France it is done
instantly. Make cajoling more efficient and the change will be instant.

Alex.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:33:49 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

In article
<0E20E07A97B69089.D11A4C110915FFE2.94FC26860C3CBA85@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
Eric Lee Green <e_l_green@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:25:06 GMT, Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
>>of the US Department of Education for civil disobediance
>>exercises around math class, designed to be educational for

>Math class is not a political exercise. Mathematics doesn't care
>whether you're liberal or conservative, white or black. Mathematics is.

>What belongs in a mathematics class is mathematics, not social studies
>(which is what civil disobedience is).

>From the postings on "politically correct" math books, at this time,
this is a problem.


--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:54:49 -0700
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From:         Tarkaan <osiris@NET-LINK.NET>
Organization: http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Alexandr Stepanov wrote:
>
>         Yes it is. In Russia the transition from the US style "liberal
> education" to traditional (copied after the most prestigeous and
> expensive czarist schools) was done in a couple of years starting in
> 1936 when the government've realized there will be a war soon and
> colledges just don't have plenty of good applicants and a supply of
> American engineers is sharply running out due to the end of the Great
> depression. The WWII has been won and there was a Sputnik in 1957.

Sorry, but among other things (including national security, the
geopolitical landscape, political ideaologies, wars), education has
become a fair different place to do business since 1936.  I venture to
say that drastic curriculum changes would be a bit more difficult to
implement now than they were then.

-- Brian Ream                                         Leicester, England
-- mailto:osiris@net-link.net            http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:15:14 -0700
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From:         Tarkaan <osiris@NET-LINK.NET>
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Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Kirby Urner wrote:
>
> Civil disobedience has played a role in getting our curriculum
> to where it is today.  When I was in college some students staged
> a protest every day at noon over the university's investments in
> South Africa, then still under an apartheid regime.  From what I
> could see, this was a curriculum exercise, taking the course
> readings seriously and taking action.

They protested against apartheid, not the math curriculum.

> From the mathematics I read, I see pathways to a brighter, more
> freeing tomorrow that are getting actively explored by only a
> few, largely because no one bothers to clue the kids about other
> options -- teachers too busy trying to meet "the standards".

Like I've been saying...teachers DO NOT WRITE THE CURRICULUM.
Committees, that may or may not include instructors write curricula.
THESE are the people you need to be talking to.  Not teachers, maybe
not even administration or school board members.

Let me ask...have you even taken time out to find out HOW new curricula
are established?  Then have you tried to introduce your ideas through
those means?

> A lot of it has to do with big picture priorities.  Kids need a lot
> better access to fancy technology than they're getting, in an
> educational context, and without necessarily having to join a
> military or para-military service.

Cash, my friend.  I think Internet-fever is sweeping the nation, and
districts are spending a great deal of taxpayer money on technology.
I'm not sure there's any way to make the growth of technology in
schools go any faster than it is, except for more cash.  Nobody is
arguing that we don't need computers in schools.

> Like I said in the PS of my original post, civil disobedience may
> not be necessary.  But I want kids to see they have the inalienable
> right, and a proud heritage to back them up, to exercise their
> better judgement in this way, if the foot-dragging continues.

So if they can't learn what they want to learn, they have the
inalienable right to leave class and learn nothing.  Or, uhh, listen
to speeches, that's the ticket.

> If you don't know what A and B modules are by 8th grade, there's
> something seriously messed up about the curriculum your school
> is pushing, is our view.

Dude, I still don't know what A and B modules are in a mathematical
context.  Good thing I'm studying English, eh?

> Academia has allowed itself to become extremely specialized, you
> probably realize, which means the "not my responsibility" syndrome
> is rather prevalent.  Like, you might think philosophy departments
> would be spearheading this campaign, given its core curriculum
> implications.  But 'philosophy' has been reduced to one more
> specialty, as disconnected from the grand scheme of things as
> any other.  But yes, I've definitely been "going through channels"
> with the philosophy department as well.

When philosophy clubs exist in high schools, you'll be all set.  (By
philosophy clubs, I don't mean excuses to get high and drunk, as was
the case at my former place of education).

> Part of what this curriculum is about is restoring more comprehensive
> points of view, math-informed, to our leadership.  It's been an uphill
> battle for many decades (long before I joined the fray).  Now all
> that work is finally starting to pay off, big time.

Go to it then, my friend.  I look forward to seeing your name on a
lesson plan one of these days.

> We're not talking "brute force" here.  But you're obviously too
> buried in compulsory studies to have any time to really figure out
> what we're up to, even though it's all accessible.  And it'll
> only get worse, as you get weighed down with grading and lesson
> planning.

Probably so, unfortunately.  But long ago, I acknowledged that
mathematics is the domain of people who like mathematics - something
that's simply not for me.  I'm really not opposed to changing the
math curricula to a more...shall we say...theoretical background.  I'm
just wary of people who take to "Civil Disobedience" in order to make
a point that they haven't even tried to make to the right people in the
first place.

Your apparent success is commendable.  May it continue.

-- Brian Ream                                         Leicester, England
-- mailto:osiris@net-link.net            http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:04:24 -0400
Reply-To:     as691454@bcm.tmc.edu
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Alexandr Stepanov <as691454@BCM.TMC.EDU>
Organization: Baylor
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Kirby Urner wrote:
>
> Tarkaan <osiris@net-link.net> wrote:
>
> A lot of it has to do with big picture priorities.  Kids need a lot
> better access to fancy technology than they're getting, in an
> educational context,
>
> My company has a hard time finding qualified recruits...

And then custom educated to meet exotic needs of your company

> People fear stepping out of line and what this could mean to their
> careers.

> >That makes perfect sense to me, and it doesn't involve walking out of a
> >class to hear rhetorical speeches from ameteur mathematical
> >philosophers.  It's the real deal, my friend.  Go through the proper
> >channels before you do all of this surrogate identity bullshit.
> >
> The speeches are to be written by the participants

        The rule of pilots and wrestlers: "if you don't know what to do - do
nothing" applies. You can walk kids into the streets, but rest assured
that its not you who will write the scenario and speaches. The only
thing kids will demand - more "practical" education because there are
parties interested in making "People fear step out of line", and they
have great professional speach writers.

> But I want kids to see they have the inalienable
> right, and a proud heritage to back them up, to exercise their
> better judgement in this way,

        So teach them history, economics, literature.
Math? OK - let them calculate something interesting. For example how
social inequality correlates with public education and what is the
cause. Disproving few political lies with the 6-th grade math might be
very illuminating. I remember how in high school we've believed that a
man with a calculator is a dangerous one - he can calculate. (Although
it turned out later that he is more dangerous for himself, then for his
rivals).

> >"Brute force is the last resort of the incompetent" - I think that
> >applies here.
> >
> We're not talking "brute force" here.  But you're obviously too
> buried in compulsory studies to have any time to really figure out
> what we're up to, even though it's all accessible.  And it'll
> only get worse, as you get weighed down with grading and lesson
> planning.
>

A commander who sends untrained people into a battle betrays them.
(Chineese saying)

Alex.
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Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:35:40 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Tarkaan <osiris@net-link.net> wrote:

>They protested against apartheid, not the math curriculum.
>

They were protesting against Princeton having a percentage
of its endowment invested in shares of stock netting
dividends from corporations reaping profits in South Africa.
>From a 'life by the numbers' point of view, a university
president might find divestment too expensive, but then
there's the integrity of an academic institution to think
about.  It comes down to weighing risks, looking for a
secure path into the future, one with intellectual integrity.
Mathematics figures into these calculations at many points
along the way.

>Like I've been saying...teachers DO NOT WRITE THE CURRICULUM.

Many teachers write curriculum and publish it directly to
the web.  I used to work in a text book company by the way
(McGraw-Hill, Rockefeller Center, 28th floor).  I've
participated in curriculum writing from that angle, as
well as from the front of a classroom in Jersey City, NJ.

>Committees, that may or may not include instructors write curricula.
>THESE are the people you need to be talking to.  Not teachers, maybe
>not even administration or school board members.
>

Actually, the Mathematical Association of America, the
NCMT, the American Mathematical Society -- these are the
organizations with which I should be in touch, and have
been.  My discussions with calculus reformers (AMS list)
and memo to the NCMT are web-accessible.  Just today I
web-published some more curriculum and wrote to the MAA
about it.  All in a day's work.  The kind of thing I do,
as a curriculum writer.

>Let me ask...have you even taken time out to find out HOW new curricula
>are established?  Then have you tried to introduce your ideas through
>those means?
>

Obviously.

I've also learned that there's tremendous inertia because the
inventories of already printed media are so huge, and the time
already invested in training the status quo curriculum already
so significant.

A lot of skilled and professional math people have worked their
whole careers to introduce reforms, improve the situation, and
consider their best efforts to have met with failure, owing
to bureaucratic resistence, inertia, apathy and so on.  Ralph
Abraham, a well-known dynamical systems theorist with the
University of California is one such battle-scarred reformer.
He features in the Math Summit account I cited above.

You make it sound so easy.  If you have good and relevant
ideas, just share them with the appropriate key people and
voila, all will be well.  It was never that simple.

Sometimes what you need is more student demand, more awareness
among the kids that they're being ripped off, denied access
to a lot of the content they really should be getting.  It's
OK for people to get riled sometimes, really.  Our culture maybe
thinks you should only get worked up at sports events, where
you can shout your lungs out while opposing teams slug it
out in some way.  But really, humans have a right to protest
and demonstrate beyond booing at basketball games.

A walkout would not necessarily be unhealthy, looking from an
educational point of view -- a giant step beyond the prevalent
mind-numbing apathy.  Kids actually worked up about mathematics?
Some teachers would think this was heaven.

>Cash, my friend.  I think Internet-fever is sweeping the nation, and
>districts are spending a great deal of taxpayer money on technology.
>I'm not sure there's any way to make the growth of technology in
>schools go any faster than it is, except for more cash.  Nobody is
>arguing that we don't need computers in schools.
>

Training too.  The math centers I'm storyboarding will be expensive,
but probably the more difficult challenge is finding staff with
the necessary expertise.  Maybe NASA will be helpful.

See: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/mathcenter.html

>So if they can't learn what they want to learn, they have the
>inalienable right to leave class and learn nothing.  Or, uhh, listen
>to speeches, that's the ticket.
>

Or they can go down the street to an internet cafe and learn
something.

>> If you don't know what A and B modules are by 8th grade, there's
>> something seriously messed up about the curriculum your school
>> is pushing, is our view.
>
>Dude, I still don't know what A and B modules are in a mathematical
>context.  Good thing I'm studying English, eh?
>

I'm sure you don't.  My point exactly -- nor should English majors
be off the hook re at least know "baby math" (the A and B mods are
Sesame Street synergetics).

>Probably so, unfortunately.  But long ago, I acknowledged that
>mathematics is the domain of people who like mathematics - something
>that's simply not for me.

I hope we can turn that around for a lot of people.

>
>Your apparent success is commendable.  May it continue.
>

Thanks.

Kirby
Curriculum writer
4D Solutions

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:05:56 PDT
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From:         prkosuth <prkosuth@MYCHOICE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
Comments: To: e_l_green@hotmail.com
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It has been written ...

----------
>
> On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:25:06 GMT, Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
> >of the US Department of Education for civil disobediance
> >exercises around math class, designed to be educational for
>
> Math class is not a political exercise. Mathematics doesn't care
> whether you're liberal or conservative, white or black. Mathematics is.
>
> What belongs in a mathematics class is mathematics, not social studies
> (which is what civil disobedience is).
>
>  -- Eric Lee Green    e_l_green@hotmail.com

I think that all disciplines belonggg in all classes. Social studies does
belong in math class. Math is a tool to study the patterns that exist in
the universe. Social issues are a good chunck of the universe so lets use
math to get a handle on whats going on. That said, I think that this idea
of a math boycott is pretty misguided. The changes that need to happen (and
there are many) must be worked from within not from without (which is main
reason that there are so many problems with american education.) I think
that this boycott idea is a way to grandstand and "do" somethingg without
accomplishing anything. Kirby, in my opinion, is too harsh on those of us
who are in the classrooms working our tails off to provide appropriate and
relevant curricullum to our students.

Thanks,

Paul K
prkosuth@mychoice.net
OPINIONS ARE MY  OWN
Brehm Preparatory School
Carbondale IL
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Date:         Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:28:54 PDT
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From:         prkosuth <prkosuth@MYCHOICE.NET>
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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>
> Civil disobedience has played a role in getting our curriculum
> to where it is today.  When I was in college some students staged
> a protest every day at noon over the university's investments in
> South Africa, then still under an apartheid regime.  From what I
> could see, this was a curriculum exercise, taking the course
> readings seriously and taking action.
>

This is right in line with Fullers comments when here at SIU about how the
World Game could become the curriculuums of schools and universities.


> >
>
> A lot of it has to do with big picture priorities.  Kids need a lot
> better access to fancy technology than they're getting, in an
> educational context, and without necessarily having to join a
> military or para-military service.
>

What math and all disciplines need to focus on is solving the problems at
hand. But as Michael Apple (education prof out of Univ of Wisconsin,
Madison WI, USA) has stated, just whose problems are we trainning kids to
solve ? The problems of food, povert, global warming or the "problems" of
how to bomb Middle Eastern countries back into the stone age ?  Math
classes and schools do not go far enough in having kids ask the questions
that they want to ask or to tackle the problems that they want to tackle.
There is school math vs math ( see the LOGO list or Seymour Papert,
_Mindstorms_ for more). I had a studennt last year tackling a problem on a
computer simulation game that he was creating. We tackled alot of cool
stuff about rates, variation, coodinate geometry, plane geometry (sorry
Kirby) etc. Did we do the standard curriculum ? probably not. But we did
use the math in an appropriate, challenging manner.


>
> But front-liner teachers have little time to think creatively like
> that these days, given all the standardized testing and the emphasis
> parents put on junior scoring well.
>

I'd concur with this. It takes lots of energy and late nights, candle
burning to do it --- but the only reason to teach is to empower the kids to
do what they need to do.

>
> People fear stepping out of line and what this could mean to their
> careers.  The advanced group is working to take a lot of the risk
> out of this new curriculum, which means getting it to appear,
> already well-oiled and working, in many real world contexts.

This is pretty clearly the case and not just in education.


>
> Kirby
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
> 4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
> ---------------------------------------------------------

Though I have alot of reservations about walking out of a math class when
we need to be pumping them in, I think that Kirby is making many excellent
points that need to be seriously addressed by all educators. It ain't just
math. As a matter of fact I think that the math heads are at the head of
the pack educationally ( at least concerning the direction) than other
curricular areas.

Thanks,

Paul

prkosuth@mychoice.net
OPINIONS ARE MY  OWN
Brehm Preparatory School
Carbondale IL
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Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:43:15 -0400
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From:         Ward Donald Griffiths III <gram@CNCT.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Tarkaan wrote:

> Go protest the fact that Poland can get into NATO and Bulgaria can't, or
> the fact that an Anthrax vaccine has existed since the 70s and we've
> never used it, protest the fact that the United States hasn't paid their
> dues to the UN since the Reagan administration, but MATHEMATICS???

The UN gets free rent in an area with some of the highest real estate
values on the North American continent.  The free market equivalent is
higher than the national GDPs of at least half of the members.  I'm
not going to mention the crimes some of the "diplomats" get away with.
--
Ward Griffiths
They say that politics makes strange bedfellows.
Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else.
                                Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_
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Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:25:36 -0700
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From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Decided to put a small note into this thread.  I have observed that when a
person persists in trying to study material that is not understood,
eventually there will come an attempt, either covert or overt, to destroy
the environment.  This accounts for much of what is called "hyperactivity"
-- it is simply the result of students being forced to study beyond a point
where they have lost the thread of understanding.  The manifestations will
be different in various individuals, but the common result is some action
that tends to destroy the environment in which study is taking place.

As this applies to math, last year i was staying with a family in Green
River Wyoming overnight.  The nine-year old son was having serious trouble
with math homework, and the father was getting fairly upset trying to help
him.  I asked to see the textbook.  The title of the first chapter was
"Numeration".  I asked the boy if he knew what that word meant.  He didn't.
I didn't either.  So we got a dictionary and looked up the word.  The
definition as given was basically incomprehensible.  Now if this is what
they are hanging around the necks of elementary math students, you can see
what bad shape we are in.

So i have to applaud Kirby for his efforts in creating a curriculum that
advances definitions for some of Bucky's concepts, and integrates them into
math.  This is a good approach, because if a term can be defined in a way
that shows how it can be observed in nature right now, the kids will learn.
We just need more of this, and less quibbling over details.

That said, i'm still working out a complete visualization of A and B modules
myself.  Do you have a place where i can look at them again, handy on the
Web?  Thanks.

-- Michael Riversong **
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist **
Author of <Design Ecology> **
MRiversong@earthlink.net **
http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
MUSIC SAMPLE now available on the web site
QUALITY ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENTS - Take control of your life now.
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Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:01:19 -0700
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From:         Tarkaan <osiris@NET-LINK.NET>
Organization: http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
>
> Tarkaan wrote:
>
> > Go protest the fact that Poland can get into NATO and Bulgaria can't, or
> > the fact that an Anthrax vaccine has existed since the 70s and we've
> > never used it, protest the fact that the United States hasn't paid their
> > dues to the UN since the Reagan administration, but MATHEMATICS???
>
> The UN gets free rent in an area with some of the highest real estate
> values on the North American continent.  The free market equivalent is
> higher than the national GDPs of at least half of the members.  I'm
> not going to mention the crimes some of the "diplomats" get away with.

I've never minded the fact that the UN is on American soil, as long as
it remains under total American control - long live US dominance!

-- Brian Ream                                         Leicester, England
-- mailto:osiris@net-link.net            http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
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Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:54:29 -0700
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From:         John Konopak <jkonopak@OU.EDU>
Organization: N-Tropics, Ltd., YB Inc.
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Herman Rubin wrote:
>
> In article
<0E20E07A97B69089.D11A4C110915FFE2.94FC26860C3CBA85@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
> Eric Lee Green <e_l_green@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:25:06 GMT, Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
> >>of the US Department of Education for civil disobediance
> >>exercises around math class, designed to be educational for
>
> >Math class is not a political exercise. Mathematics doesn't care
> >whether you're liberal or conservative, white or black. Mathematics is.
>
> >What belongs in a mathematics class is mathematics, not social studies
> >(which is what civil disobedience is).
>
> From the postings on "politically correct" math books, at this time,
> this is a problem.
> THough I am mor(t)ally certain I already know what Herman the Bourgeois
Turing
Machine will reply, and can pretty well guess at the reply of Mr. Green, I will
nevertheless still, for the evidence of the retrograde passions that it will
provide, I ask:

Precisely why is it NOT the province of math _classes_-- in school, where both
HTBTM and Eric would agree children are enculturated and socialized to the
dominant social regimen--to consider as mathematical proplems those social
issues in which an understanding of mathematics provides an avenue and a tool
for analysis?

In what way is using monetary units to teach children to count and otherwise
manipulate numbers arithmetically NOT a practice of ideological indoctrination?

Calculus is the "language" of industrial, commercial, financial, and other
socially constructed vehicles for the exercise of power. Algebra is its
grammar. It is through the wonders of the mathematical manipulation of compound
interest that much political power is accumulated and dispensed. Interest
rates--once called usury--is a social issue and a political one too.

So why, if (e.g.) 8th graders learn to figure out the family's _apr_ on their
debts, is it not also within the provenance of the MATH teacher to problematize
the (often staggering) interest rates they pay, for example by comparing the
rates paid by the rich--both corporate and individuals--on loans of HUGE
amounts of money to the oppressive and larcenous rates charged to individuals
for consumer credit purposes? Why not use the (mathematical) understanding of
social conditions that are shaped and regulated under the rubric of corporate
financial considerations--they don't call it a calculus for nothing--to help
students' to contextualize and interpret their life-world experiences?

The answers to these questions, if any ensue, will AMPLY demonstrate the
ideological and contingent components of the claims that will be said to be
completely objective and scientific on the purity of mathematics discourses.
transparently
konopak



--
+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = +
| John Konopak, EDUC/ILAC,820 VanVleet Oval,U.of OK.Norman,OK73019|
|E-mail: jkonopak@ou.edu; Fax: 4053254061; phone:4053251498       |
+_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_+
|       "You may not be able to change the world, but at least    |
|   you can embarrass the guilty." --Jessica Mitford (1917-1996)  |
|               "Those who can, must!"  --Anonymous               |
+ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = +
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Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:02:48 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

In article <353F8055.24C2@ou.edu>, John Konopak  <jkonopak@ou.edu> wrote:
>Herman Rubin wrote:

>> In article
<0E20E07A97B69089.D11A4C110915FFE2.94FC26860C3CBA85@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
> Eric Lee Green <e_l_green@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:25:06 GMT, Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
>> >>of the US Department of Education for civil disobediance
>> >>exercises around math class, designed to be educational for

>> >Math class is not a political exercise. Mathematics doesn't care
>> >whether you're liberal or conservative, white or black. Mathematics is.

>> >What belongs in a mathematics class is mathematics, not social studies
>> >(which is what civil disobedience is).

>> From the postings on "politically correct" math books, at this time,
>> this is a problem.
>> THough I am mor(t)ally certain I already know what Herman the Bourgeois
Turing
>Machine will reply, and can pretty well guess at the reply of Mr. Green, I
will
>nevertheless still, for the evidence of the retrograde passions that it will
>provide, I ask:

>Precisely why is it NOT the province of math _classes_-- in school, where both
>HTBTM and Eric would agree children are enculturated and socialized to the
>dominant social regimen--to consider as mathematical proplems those social
>issues in which an understanding of mathematics provides an avenue and a tool
>for analysis?

>From your statements, it seems that you do not understand mathematics.

Exactly the same mathematics can be applied to anything.  Of course, to
apply it to social issues requires that the social issues be modeled in
terms of the precise mathematical concepts, which can never be a perfect
fit.  What is not being done now is to teach the mathematical concepts.
It is much harder to learn a precise concept when it is bogged down in
social gobbledygook.  Social problems are not simple, and those who do
not understand the complexity only make them worse.  Mathematics is
clear and simple.

>In what way is using monetary units to teach children to count and otherwise
>manipulate numbers arithmetically NOT a practice of ideological
indoctrination?

So teach the mathematics without referring to monetary units, and then
point out that it can be applied to monetary units, as well as other
units, and in exactly the same way.

>Calculus is the "language" of industrial, commercial, financial, and other
>socially constructed vehicles for the exercise of power. Algebra is its
>grammar. It is through the wonders of the mathematical manipulation of
compound
>interest that much political power is accumulated and dispensed. Interest
>rates--once called usury--is a social issue and a political one too.

So is English, in the United States, French, in France, Chinese, in China,
etc.  Learn the mathematics, and it can be applied to anything.  Learn
the mathematics with a social philosophy, and it will not be understood.

                        .................

Mathematics is not an expression of the real world.  It is an abstract
entity, which can be used to model the real world.  Mathematics will
not solve real world problems; it can only solve problems formulated
in its precise framework, and the solution is not likely to be any
better than the formulation.
--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
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Date:         Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:53:36 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

>
>From your statements, it seems that you do not understand mathematics.
>

The distinction here is perhaps between mathematics as some purist and
effete endeavour, indulged in by those with tenure and well-insulated
from reality's storms, and mathematics as practiced by those who use
it as a means to various ends, sometimes in survival situations where
"doing it wrong" (including "taking too long") might mean real tragedy
for oneself and/or for others one cares about.

Part of what gets communicated in classrooms is not just the subject
matter (mathematics) but its context within

(a) the curriculum and
(b) in the world beyond and outside of school.

When I was a classroom teacher, kids would often ask me how they would
likely apply this or that concept or skill later in life.  These were
not stupid questions and of course pointing to word problems about
farmer John and his desire to enclose the greatest area with a
rectangular fence, was not an answer.

It's not always the case that a teacher is in a position to give a good
answer, because the fact of the matter is a curriculum can and does
sometimes get seriously out of sync with the ambient culture and its
true requirements.

I think Herman will agree that mathematics is a vast subject, so even
allowing for sequencing and prerequisites, just the fact that one spends
so much time here, so little there, is often a reflection of pressures
exerted on the curriculum not by the subject matter itself (math doesn't
"care" if you spend a year doing calculus, or a couple of months, or no
time at all) but by perceived needs of future employers and cultural
agreements about what it means to "have an education" i.e. to be a product
of one of the elite academies, and thereby to typify sophistication and
suitability for certain types of service.  Cultures use these criteria
to stamp kids into various molds.  Again, this is not mathematics per se,
but its context.  But to think these two are easily separated in the
classroom is to indulge in self-delusion.

>So is English, in the United States, French, in France, Chinese, in China,
>etc.  Learn the mathematics, and it can be applied to anything.  Learn
>the mathematics with a social philosophy, and it will not be understood.
>

I simply don't agree that compartmentation to this degree is achievable.
Mathematics is inevitably imbued with social content simply because it
is relayed from person to person in social contexts (e.g. TV, classroom,
web, hotel room) and these circumstances will color the discipline,
impart a "spin".  Even if one chooses not to focus on this kind of
content, it's not smart to pretend it doesn't exist.

>Mathematics is not an expression of the real world.  It is an abstract
>entity, which can be used to model the real world.  Mathematics will
>not solve real world problems; it can only solve problems formulated
>in its precise framework, and the solution is not likely to be any
>better than the formulation.

Mathematics is embedded in culture and as culture changes, so does
the mathematics, in very complicated ways.  For example, the criteria
or agreements around what constitutes an "educated person" are subject
to alteration over time.  In Herman's day, no one was taught about
A and B modules, or Couplers or MITEs.  But in the coming century,
every kid will know what these are and it will seem incredible to
them that established professors like Herman Rubin were clueless
about such basic, Sesame Street level geometry.

Teachers who advertised themselves as authoritative about many critical
matters were simply too slow to update their thinking. This had many
grave consequences. The so-called "Doctor of Philosophy" degree (Ph.D.),
in some ways a paper security, like stocks or bonds, inevitably lost
a lot of its value once it became very clear to the larger public how
seriously degraded had become the "philosophy" of these "doctors",
and how great the losses as a consequence.

In retrospect we see that academia failed us by losing its ability
to keep its core curriculum in sync with what our situation demanded.
Overspecialization was a serious error. We won't let it happen again,
if we've learned anything from this chapter.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:54:16 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

In article <353faec3.18438215@news.teleport.com>,
Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
>hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:


>>From your statements, it seems that you do not understand mathematics.


>The distinction here is perhaps between mathematics as some purist and
>effete endeavour, indulged in by those with tenure and well-insulated
>from reality's storms, and mathematics as practiced by those who use
>it as a means to various ends, sometimes in survival situations where
>"doing it wrong" (including "taking too long") might mean real tragedy
>for oneself and/or for others one cares about.

Mathematics is not a collection of procedures, facts, etc.  This is
what is missing now except at the highest levels, and unfortunately,
they get pushed higher because of the opposition to learning why and
not how.  It is structure, upon which one can place the other aspects.

The one who understands the idea of variables, equations, etc., can
translate any algebra-level word problem into a pure mathematics
problem, which a machine can solve, using again a few simple ideas.
Such a person can apply this to all fields.

It is extremely rare that one will have a situation where survival
will be served by being able to do mathematical manipulations without
this understanding any faster than with the understanding and lack
of practice in the manipulations.

>Part of what gets communicated in classrooms is not just the subject
>matter (mathematics) but its context within

>(a) the curriculum and
>(b) in the world beyond and outside of school.

This is the degradation of the curriculum, not just in mathematics,
but in everything else.  There is the Chinese saying, which also has
similar versions in other languages.

        Give a man a fish, and he can eat for a day.
        Teach a man to fish, and he can eat for many years.

Teach someone to solve a particular problem, and that is it.
Teach someone to understand structure and solution, and lots of
problems can be solved.

>When I was a classroom teacher, kids would often ask me how they would
>likely apply this or that concept or skill later in life.  These were
>not stupid questions and of course pointing to word problems about
>farmer John and his desire to enclose the greatest area with a
>rectangular fence, was not an answer.

This makes it very difficult to teach fundamental material.  We have
this problem with college students, often graduate students, wanting
to learn statistics.  They can learn formal procedures, which they
cannot but misuse.  They do not have the probability needed, nor the
mathematics (mainly understanding of algebra and the use of symbols)
needed to learn the probability, even if they have had calculus.

>It's not always the case that a teacher is in a position to give a good
>answer, because the fact of the matter is a curriculum can and does
>sometimes get seriously out of sync with the ambient culture and its
>true requirements.

>I think Herman will agree that mathematics is a vast subject, so even
>allowing for sequencing and prerequisites,

In mathematics, as in no other subject, there has been considerable
success in identifying the underlying structure, and even in finding
what is basic.  When mathematicians speak of THE integers, it is not
one concept or model, but it is known exactly what is under discussion.
The same holds for real numbers, Euclidean spaces, etc.  This can be
communicated easily to someone who has certain basics, which can be
taught well in the early grades.  It may take some time to teach them.

We are going to find more efficient means of doing this, and this is
likely to be done by using more structure early, rather than using
less by making a sloppy attempt to ground them in the "real world".
These should be, instead, relating real world situations to mathematical
structure, where we know far better what is correct.

The first part of mathematics is language, and we now know that
young children learn language structure, and not merely facts.
The most important part of mathematics is that it is a very
simple language, which is not adequate for all of communication,
but whose grammar is what enables one to deduce much from little.


                        ......................


>I simply don't agree that compartmentation to this degree is achievable.
>Mathematics is inevitably imbued with social content simply because it
>is relayed from person to person in social contexts (e.g. TV, classroom,
>web, hotel room) and these circumstances will color the discipline,
>impart a "spin".  Even if one chooses not to focus on this kind of
>content, it's not smart to pretend it doesn't exist.

Even this is not the case.  The discussion may be affected, but not
the mathematics.

>>Mathematics is not an expression of the real world.  It is an abstract
>>entity, which can be used to model the real world.  Mathematics will
>>not solve real world problems; it can only solve problems formulated
>>in its precise framework, and the solution is not likely to be any
>>better than the formulation.

>Mathematics is embedded in culture and as culture changes, so does
>the mathematics, in very complicated ways.  For example, the criteria
>or agreements around what constitutes an "educated person" are subject
>to alteration over time.  In Herman's day, no one was taught about
>A and B modules, or Couplers or MITEs.  But in the coming century,
>every kid will know what these are and it will seem incredible to
>them that established professors like Herman Rubin were clueless
>about such basic, Sesame Street level geometry.

What does any of this have to do with mathematics?  Sesame Street
does not teach geometry, but applications of it.

>Teachers who advertised themselves as authoritative about many critical
>matters were simply too slow to update their thinking. This had many
>grave consequences. The so-called "Doctor of Philosophy" degree (Ph.D.),
>in some ways a paper security, like stocks or bonds, inevitably lost
>a lot of its value once it became very clear to the larger public how
>seriously degraded had become the "philosophy" of these "doctors",
>and how great the losses as a consequence.

This is exactly the charge I would level at the schools of education.
The Ph.D. degree has declined, in that its old standards have not been
kept up, partly because of government pressure; the funding agencies
complained about the length of time, and there was a demand for Ph.D.'s,
only because they were Ph.D.'s, and not because of what the degree was
supposed to mean.  The confusion between training and education in the
minds of most people is extreme; one cannot train a scholar, and it is
part of the tragedy that teachers are trained.

It is not clear how many trained people we will need in the future.
Education provides the knowledge and ability to deal with unforeseen
situations, and training does not.  One cannot do a good job of
education by making it relevant.  When new problems arose during
WWII, many required not the trained engineer, but the "ivory tower"
scholar, who did not look for a solution in the bag of tricks, but
analyzed the problem.  This is how mathematics should be taught.

>In retrospect we see that academia failed us by losing its ability
>to keep its core curriculum in sync with what our situation demanded.
>Overspecialization was a serious error. We won't let it happen again,
>if we've learned anything from this chapter.

I would say that it is exactly the opposite.  We can only train for
the current situation needs.  We can educate for the uncertain future.
This is not done by training for the present.
--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

>Mathematics is not a collection of procedures, facts, etc.  This is
>what is missing now except at the highest levels, and unfortunately,
>they get pushed higher because of the opposition to learning why and
>not how.  It is structure, upon which one can place the other aspects.
>

I would say it is at the lowest and most primitive level at which
you find integration -- more in the direction of principia, ala
Russell, or Wittgenstein's investigations into the so-called
'foundations' of mathematics (calling it that paints a picture,
and is metaphoric, ergo culturally associative).

If you have studied the philosophy of mathematics, you know that
there are many schools of thought on "what is mathematics".
I take an anthropologist's view and actually investigate what
goes on in special cases situations where people say mathematics
is involved.  I also know what you mean about integration in
pure principle.

But as Carl Sagan points out, ancient Polynesian navigators who
used constellations to map the skys for navigation purposes, and
encoded this knowledge in stories, with the constellations as
characters, ala animated cartoons, were doing something mathematical.
It is ethnocentric to just look around at one's university and
peer group for information about what is or is not mathematics,
if you want answers with sufficient scope to carry you to the
frontiers of philosophy.

>The one who understands the idea of variables, equations, etc., can
>translate any algebra-level word problem into a pure mathematics
>problem, which a machine can solve, using again a few simple ideas.
>Such a person can apply this to all fields.
>

If this so-called word problem was crafted by algebrists for the
purpose of giving kids exercise, then yes, I would agree.  On the
other hand, some 'word problems' (aka real world problems expressed
in ordinary language) have no computable solution given present
day mathematics and may or may not in future.  Plus certain chess
problems, if you give them to a computer, even a super one, are
routinely bungled.  Roger Penrose delighted in showing us some of
these at the Oregon Math Summit (mentioned in my account, cited
above).

>It is extremely rare that one will have a situation where survival
>will be served by being able to do mathematical manipulations without
>this understanding any faster than with the understanding and lack
>of practice in the manipulations.
>

When decrypting enemy communications or computing ballistics tables
for hitting targets, speed is of the essence.  There's a war going
and if you go about the task with insufficient resources or
commitment, even if you have a fairly good grasp of the principles,
you may fail.  But if you build computers to automate the mathematics
and carry it out at very high speeds, you may succeed.  Part of what
it means to be competent at mathematics is knowing how to allocate
your time, energy, talents, how to manage and marshall your resources
in the face of a looming challenge.  In the case of WWII, being able
to integrate Boolean logic with circuit design and difference engine
technology was important, and without people like Turing, probably
would not have been accomplished with sufficient speed.

>>Part of what gets communicated in classrooms is not just the subject
>>matter (mathematics) but its context within
>
>>(a) the curriculum and
>>(b) in the world beyond and outside of school.
>
>This is the degradation of the curriculum, not just in mathematics,
>but in everything else.  There is the Chinese saying, which also has
>similar versions in other languages.
>
>       Give a man a fish, and he can eat for a day.
>       Teach a man to fish, and he can eat for many years.
>

This is not degradation of any kind, but a brute fact of human
existence.  You cannot divorce mathematics from its context in
the real world because you are a flesh and blood animal with
an actual situation in the world.  Get over it -- this is a
feature, not a bug.

>Teach someone to solve a particular problem, and that is it.
>Teach someone to understand structure and solution, and lots of
>problems can be solved.
>

Yes, you persist in trivializing the point of contention.  We
all know that mathematics is about generic patterns and it pays
to focus on the patterns, in which case you'll get more leverage
vis-a-vis special cases, including over ones you've yet to
encounter, because you've done your homework around basic
principles. That much is clear to everyone I hope.

On the other hand, history is one special case event after
another and depending on the twists and turns of a culture,
and the looming challenges it needs to face, the shape of
the mathematics, even at the level of teaching basic principles,
is going to change.  Life is short and there's no such thing
as "learning all there is to know" in mathematics -- no one
does or ever will.

Do you really need to fish to stay alive or is that just your
metaphor?  You'll get different answers from different people,
and how they spend their time learning math will likewise vary.
I can easily imagine cultures which have no time for classroom
mathematics as we know it, and yet their level of mathematical
sophistication might be very high.

As well-known math writer Ian Stewart put it the other night
here in Portland, he can well imagine walking into a room some
decades into the future and getting that mathematics of some
kind is going on all around him, and yet even based on his own
considerable understanding of the subject, he would nevertheless
be completely at a loss to explain what these people were doing.
Math moves on.  What we do tomorrow may not be entirely
comprehensible even to the most accomplished mathematicians
of today, not because we'll be "smarter" in some brute hardware
sense (the human body is not evolving very quickly) but
because we'll have had the benefit of more experience to
draw from, and will be faced with different challenges.

>This makes it very difficult to teach fundamental material.  We have
>this problem with college students, often graduate students, wanting
>to learn statistics.  They can learn formal procedures, which they
>cannot but misuse.  They do not have the probability needed, nor the
>mathematics (mainly understanding of algebra and the use of symbols)
>needed to learn the probability, even if they have had calculus.
>

My point was it isn't always the students' problem or deficiency
that's at issue.  I'm saying the Ph.D. in the front of the room
may not have a clue about what's really relevant anymore, because
he or she has been running this number for so long that she or
he is now trapped in a curriculum completely out of sync with
where the real world aka the culture is heading.

>>I think Herman will agree that mathematics is a vast subject, so even
>>allowing for sequencing and prerequisites,
>
>In mathematics, as in no other subject, there has been considerable
>success in identifying the underlying structure, and even in finding
>what is basic.

Wittgenstein had same very deep insights in this regard, yes.
Russell, on the other hand, hadn't a clue.

>When mathematicians speak of THE integers, it is not
>one concept or model, but it is known exactly what is under discussion.

This is empty PR, hype, as far as I'm concerned.  As a trained
philosopher, I say "no pass".

>The same holds for real numbers, Euclidean spaces, etc.  This can be
>communicated easily to someone who has certain basics, which can be
>taught well in the early grades.  It may take some time to teach them.
>

In some schools, "real numbers" are being tossed out.  You have
"terminals" and "algorithmics" instead of "rationals" and "irrationals".
It's another language game.  There's nothing ontological at stake
except "our way of life" -- and forms of life come and go on this
planet.  Mathematics doesn't care.

>We are going to find more efficient means of doing this, and this is
>likely to be done by using more structure early, rather than using
>less by making a sloppy attempt to ground them in the "real world".
>These should be, instead, relating real world situations to mathematical
>structure, where we know far better what is correct.
>

Your mathematical superstructure is full of holes, is what I'm
trying to say.  Tomorrow's logicians may have little time for all
the arcane business filed under 'the foundations' today.

>The first part of mathematics is language, and we now know that
>young children learn language structure, and not merely facts.
>The most important part of mathematics is that it is a very
>simple language, which is not adequate for all of communication,
>but whose grammar is what enables one to deduce much from little.
>

The links between math and the rest of language are strong, and
deep-level (grammatical), yes.

>
>Even this is not the case.  The discussion may be affected, but not
>the mathematics.
>

I say this is too narrow a view of what is mathematics.  It should
be defined to include more of the lifestyle around the activity,
and not just zero in on some Platonic abstractions.  There's all
the difference in the world between math used to compute the
most efficient conduct a holocaust, versus using math to dig
ourselves out of a hell hole, even if exactly the same "statistical
principles" are engaged in both cases.  Heaven and hell may be
exactly the same place, from a Platonic viewpoint, but we flesh
and blood critters have to live here, and mathematics needs to
accommodate this difference, at the formal level, as a part of
its own self-disciplines.

>What does any of this have to do with mathematics?  Sesame Street
>does not teach geometry, but applications of it.
>

Sesame Street could have done more to teach geometry, I agree.

Somehow, everything you consider essential is "pure mathematics"
whereas everything you're clueless about is "a mere application".
Even a computer could be programmed to argue in this way.

>This is exactly the charge I would level at the schools of education.

You deflect the charge.  I level it at any school, including Princeton,
my alma mater, because the words "philosophy" and "doctor" are in the
final analysis in the public domain, part of the collective
un/consciousness. To allow such degradation was dangerous and
foolhardy.

>The Ph.D. degree has declined, in that its old standards have not been
>kept up, partly because of government pressure; the funding agencies
>complained about the length of time, and there was a demand for Ph.D.'s,
>only because they were Ph.D.'s, and not because of what the degree was
>supposed to mean.  The confusion between training and education in the
>minds of most people is extreme; one cannot train a scholar, and it is
>part of the tragedy that teachers are trained.
>

I hear a lot of whining here, but it's too late to undo the damage.
The government won't be looking for Ph.D.'s with such a passion in
future.  I certainly don't tell my recruiters to place a premium
on such -- we'll do our own competence testing and dismiss most
of academia's self-professed claims about a degree's relevance.
This is rule of thumb stuff here, not exceptionless principle --
just another sign of the times.

>It is not clear how many trained people we will need in the future.
>Education provides the knowledge and ability to deal with unforeseen
>situations, and training does not.

Don't use "training" pejoratively.  We find a lot of people with
"training" who serve with more competence than those with fancy
"education".  Academia is losing the right the call the shots,
is the point I'm making.  It took too long.  It lost the war.

>One cannot do a good job of education by making it relevant.
>When new problems arose during WWII, many required not the trained
>engineer, but the "ivory tower" scholar, who did not look for a
>solution in the bag of tricks, but analyzed the problem.  This
>is how mathematics should be taught.
>

You can try to relive the glory days, but the present situation
is entirely different.

>>In retrospect we see that academia failed us by losing its ability
>>to keep its core curriculum in sync with what our situation demanded.
>>Overspecialization was a serious error. We won't let it happen again,
>>if we've learned anything from this chapter.
>
>I would say that it is exactly the opposite.  We can only train for
>the current situation needs.  We can educate for the uncertain future.
>This is not done by training for the present.

I think I'll take training over education from now on, given you
endorse the latter but clearly do not have "the right stuff",
whatever you call it.  Just kidding -- I don't pay much attention
to such nitpicky terminological matters, as it always means
something else depending on who's doing the talking.  In your
case, I'd say you could use some training.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:06:56 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Fw: Syn-l: update from Design Science Toys
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****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Quimby <stuq@ulster.net>
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com <synergetics-l@teleport.com>
Date: Saturday, April 25, 1998 06:03 AM
Subject: Re: Syn-l: update from Design Science Toys


>Joe S. Moore wrote:
>
>> Stu,
>>
>> Any chance ever having your catalog available on a web site?
>>
>> Joe
>>
>
>I've been 2 weeks away from finishing our web site for the last 3 months
>now.  Got sucked into MicroSatan FrontPage, did a bunch of work, and
>then found out that they had conveniently left out the information that
>the entire rest of the world would have to convert to MS in order to
>enjoy my hard work.  These people are beyond the pale.  I'm watching
>Linnux closely and will change over at my first opportunity.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:43:40 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
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From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Dome framework done
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The framework for my greenhouse geodesic dome is done. A 65-strut, 11
foot diameter, 2 frequency structure built of PVC pipe, hex bolts and
wingnuts. Everything came together quite cleanly - (the math on my pages
is vindicated.). It looks very nice up on the hill behind our house.
Now, I've got to figure out how to cover it and what to use.

I may raise it up on a single triangulated cylindical layer to get a
little more headroom, and I'm probably going to engineer a door into it
as well. Hopefully I'll have a few pictures on my web page soon...

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:34:03 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Fuller's Predictions Re-Predicted
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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R. Buckminster Fuller wasn't the only one predicting these things, but
he's my favorite.

Linkname: BBC News | Sci/Tech | Less work more play - but not until 2020
URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_83000/83388.stm
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:28:15 GMT

[excerpt]

Families in 2020 will go on holiday through space and leave household
chores to robots, according to a report published on Saturday.

Workers will spend just 15 hours a week sitting at multi-media work
stations in their homes and children will swap their schools for "cyber
classrooms", say researchers at the Henley Centre.

Increased leisure time will be spent making cheap long-distance video
phone calls to friends, downloading videos and going shopping via the
Internet, they predict.

--
  _________________________________________
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Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:37:48 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

In article <3540c1c6.88851141@news.teleport.com>,
Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
>hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

>>Mathematics is not a collection of procedures, facts, etc.  This is
>>what is missing now except at the highest levels, and unfortunately,
>>they get pushed higher because of the opposition to learning why and
>>not how.  It is structure, upon which one can place the other aspects.


>I would say it is at the lowest and most primitive level at which
>you find integration -- more in the direction of principia, ala
>Russell, or Wittgenstein's investigations into the so-called
>'foundations' of mathematics (calling it that paints a picture,
>and is metaphoric, ergo culturally associative).

>If you have studied the philosophy of mathematics, you know that
>there are many schools of thought on "what is mathematics".
>I take an anthropologist's view and actually investigate what
>goes on in special cases situations where people say mathematics
>is involved.  I also know what you mean about integration in
>pure principle.

There are far fewer than you think.  Wittgenstein is completely
obsolete, and Russell worked at the time when nobody had a reasonable
model for set theory.  Except for the intuitionists, logic was
essentially set at that time, although a full formulation took
somewhat later to get into general use.  There are different
ways of presenting this, but the ideas are the same.  _Principia_
presents this rather clumsily, but the logic is still  the same.

Set theory is somewhat harder, and there are still some who are
trying to find a way out of the paradoxes other than that of
ZF or NBG.  There are foundational questions which, if they are
true as most believe, cannot even be proved so.  But this is
not the problem.

The problem is how to avoid the paradoxes, and still get someting
useful.  It does not happen unless these questions are gone into;
I am one of those who has published on this.

That Hilbert found some gaps in Euclid's axioms is patched without
essential changes in the development.  Euclid and Archimedes would
have been delighted with Landau's book, which would have enabled them
to do far more.  Many of the philosophical problems just vanish.
And the use of variables, which did attain the simplicity of full
generality until about a century ago, provides the essential means
of precise efficient communication.

The process of development of mathematical and scientific knowledge
is a process of making it essentially culture free.
--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
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Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:00:44 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

>There are far fewer than you think.  Wittgenstein is completely
>obsolete, and Russell worked at the time when nobody had a reasonable
>model for set theory.

<<SNIP>>

I don't agree with you re the above nor recognize you as
my teacher on these matters.  I've already put my cards
on the table for those interested (e.g. website).  Let's
just drop it then.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:16:06 -0400
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From:         gregor markowitz <gregor@MYHOUSE.COM>
Subject:      Prime Number Search
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Wow, this group is really bogged down.

I am sponsoring a distributed computing team which is trying to find the
38th mersenne prime. Our massively parallel virtual machine is already up
to 38 processors clocking ~7.1 gigahertz.

Later this spring we hope to, as a team, calculate for the SETI radio
telescope effort. The SETI effort will likely involve tens of thousands of
home computers all working on the same problem. It will be by far the
largest, most powerful super computer ever created. All just to search for
others in the universe.

The URL for the team site is http://myhouse.com/love/fest/team

-gregor markowitz (geodesically computing)
*** Never work... Fuller ***
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Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:18:08 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      "Dymaxion Musician"
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Described as a "dymaxion musician" by Synergetics listserv moderator Kirby
Urner, GADGETTO v3.0 is now available for beta testing by the general
public.  GADGETTO is proven compatible with lynx, Opera and MSIE but has
been optimized for Netscape 3+ with javascript enabled.

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
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Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:51:20 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

In article <3542c993.25739251@news.mindspring.com>,
Danette & Murray Root <Murray.Root@mindspring.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:29:15 -0400, "Kyle R. Green" <krgreen@hotmail.com>
>wrote in talk.politics.libertarian:

>=> Hmm...two things:

>=> I agree with Eric Lee Green.  Knowing the cosine of 38 degrees isn't
>=> going to get unjust laws changed.  This is just part of that
>=> cross-curriculum bullshit that's become All The Rage nowadays.

>=> Also, that math changes bit that Kirby talked about.  Is that something
>=> like being told during early elementry school that you can't do 2-3,
>=> there are no numbers less than zero, etc., then being told in seventh
>=> grade that there are?  I got low grades in math in elementary school
>=> just because I insisted upon the reality of negative numbers.  Then,
>=> being told in middle school that you can't take the square root of these
>=> new negative numbers, then being told in H.S. Algebra that you can?

>=> Were these things just discovered as we were covering them in class?

I presume that these are rhetorical questions.

But the reality is worse.  It makes a difference which number system
is being used whether these operations make sense, but when it is
presented that there is one number system (which can be done, but
only if you REALLY know what you are doing), this is not the case.
If a teacher does not either understand what you as a child was able
to discover, and either congratulated you on it, or explained the
notion of different mathematical systems with different properties,
that person should not be teaching anything remotely related to
mathematics.

The textbooks are written by people who do not believe that children
can understand mathematics except as it has been mistaught.  It might
have been possible to get elementary school teachers 40 years ago who
understood mathematical concepts, or to hire people without the courses
in the schools of education who did, but neither was done.  It would
be much harder now.

>Depends on how long it took you to get through school. :-)

>I've often wondered about people who say things like 'math changes'. I'm forty
>years old, and 2+2 STILL equals 4, just like it did when I was a kid.
>The calculus I learned in high school still works. So does the algebra and
>trigonometry.

There have been major changes in the understanding of mathematics.  The
mechanics of those courses have not changed, but like the development of
Euclidean geometry from a few axioms, the same can be done for these other
fields, and presented that way.  But Euclid is now becoming far more
scarce, and computations, far less necessary, have become more emphasized.

>There have been changes in the way math is taught, but they don't usually last
>more than a couple of years.

No, they last for decades if they are in the direction of dumbing down.

The new math was introduced by mathematicians who found that their children
did not understand when taught to manipulate.  It was as well tested as
anything introduced by the educationists.  It was a real surprise that the
teachers even had any problems with it.
--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:11:53 GMT
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From:         loan4u@LAST.COM
Organization: Road Runner
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Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:07:38 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Murray.Root@mindspring.com (Danette & Murray Root) wrote:

>I've often wondered about people who say things like 'math changes'. I'm forty
>years old, and 2+2 STILL equals 4, just like it did when I was a kid.
>The calculus I learned in high school still works. So does the algebra and
>trigonometry.
>

I was talking more over the long haul.  The calculus was invented
around the time Ben Franklin was learning arithmetic -- obviously
he wasn't getting all the cafeteria dishes we offer today at the
math trough. Lots more to pig out on given the hard work of so
many brilliant and ardent pioneers over the centuries (like Ada
Byron for example, aka the Countess Lovelace).

Math is a scene of new inventions, new language games, many driven
into the foreground by real world exigencies.  The theater is
likewise the scene of new plays, which doesn't mean the old stuff
is necessarily invalid or obsolete.  We still do Shakespeare in
English class too -- and with good reason.  Some forgotten
screenplays make a comeback, or golden oldies get new life on
prime time (sometimes set to a more contemporary beat).

Kyle's point is more to the point that math has changed a lot. As
"ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" (tired cliche, sorry), what you
learn in the earlier grades keeps getting overturned by something
you learn later (overturnings sometimes vigorously resisted by
mathematicians of the time) -- which isn't to excuse the hodge-
podge we serve kids today, full of retractions, contradictions,
empty hype.

In the movies, we often hear the professor say "according to my
calculations blah blah blah" -- maybe it's some superweapon or a
Dr. Strangelove scenario for surviving underground we hear about.
A lot depends on your culture and what you call "calculations"
(or computer readouts).  Some cultures seem hell-bent on drawing
up great tragedy scenarios, along with extravagant plans for
drafting all the rest of us as extras, whether we like it or
not.

Over here in my culture, my computers are telling me we could be
vectoring for high living standards and making death by starvation
a relic of some dark ages past (aka our present). I agitate and
propagandize for "my" curriculum, and work to recruit a talented
cast for "my" scenarios because, just like the great tragedy
directors, I'm selfish:  I want to live in a world that's more
secure for myself and my loved ones.  Pretty simple.  Like, duh.

In my culture, kids learn about the concentric hierarchy of
simple whole number volumed polys, their fractional subvolumes,
very early in their careers, like on Sesame Street or something.[1]
This gives them more confidance and familiarty with spatial
geometry, i.e. geometry "beyond flatland" (beyond all that flat-
lander stuff which other cultures still invest in so heavily --
probably owing to their roots in a landlubber past).

My kids grow up to be competent design scientists, know how to
build water-tight domes at the bottom of the ocean, space stations
using the octet truss, moon bases. Their art is informed by a rich
heritage (Haida, Tlingit...) and I am proud to have been one of
their teachers.  Feel free to join us, whatever your walk of life.

Kirby
Curriculum writer
4D Solutions


[1] from http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/urner.html


             Shape               Volume
             -----               ------
             A module             1/24
             B module             1/24
             T module             1/24
             MITE                 1/8
             Coupler              1
             Tetrahedron          1
             Cube                 3
             Octahedron           4
             Rh Triacontahedron   5
             Rh Dodecahedron      6
             Icosahedron         18.51...
             Cuboctahedron       20

           Table 3: Concentric Hierarchy


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 05:52:43 GMT
Reply-To:     Murray.Root@mindspring.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Danette & Murray Root <Murray.Root@MINDSPRING.COM>
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:29:15 -0400, "Kyle R. Green" <krgreen@hotmail.com>
wrote in talk.politics.libertarian:

=> Hmm...two things:
=>
=> I agree with Eric Lee Green.  Knowing the cosine of 38 degrees isn't
=> going to get unjust laws changed.  This is just part of that
=> cross-curriculum bullshit that's become All The Rage nowadays.
=>
=> Also, that math changes bit that Kirby talked about.  Is that something
=> like being told during early elementry school that you can't do 2-3,
=> there are no numbers less than zero, etc., then being told in seventh
=> grade that there are?  I got low grades in math in elementary school
=> just because I insisted upon the reality of negative numbers.  Then,
=> being told in middle school that you can't take the square root of these
=> new negative numbers, then being told in H.S. Algebra that you can?
=>
=> Were these things just discovered as we were covering them in class?

Depends on how long it took you to get through school. :-)

I've often wondered about people who say things like 'math changes'. I'm forty
years old, and 2+2 STILL equals 4, just like it did when I was a kid.
The calculus I learned in high school still works. So does the algebra and
trigonometry.

There have been changes in the way math is taught, but they don't usually last
more than a couple of years.

__________________________________________________________________

Copyright 1998, Murray J. Root
I do not admit to saying, posting, or writing anything.
You may copy, reprint, repost, or otherwise disseminate
any of this information in any format you desire, as long
as you do not attempt to attach any blame to me.
__________________________________________________________________

http://mroot.home.mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:29:15 -0400
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From:         "Kyle R. Green" <krgreen@HOTMAIL.COM>
Organization: InfiNet
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hmm...two things:

I agree with Eric Lee Green.  Knowing the cosine of 38 degrees isn't
going to get unjust laws changed.  This is just part of that
cross-curriculum bullshit that's become All The Rage nowadays.

Also, that math changes bit that Kirby talked about.  Is that something
like being told during early elementry school that you can't do 2-3,
there are no numbers less than zero, etc., then being told in seventh
grade that there are?  I got low grades in math in elementary school
just because I insisted upon the reality of negative numbers.  Then,
being told in middle school that you can't take the square root of these
new negative numbers, then being told in H.S. Algebra that you can?

Were these things just discovered as we were covering them in class?  If
so, I'm impressed at the speed in which they printed the new textbooks.

Kyle R. Green
krgreen@hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:48:10 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Cindy <artexpress@SESAME.COM>
Organization: John Patterson
Subject:      Be near me hot stud

Maria was little Mexican slut who
was about 5'4" and weighed 100lbs.
She had huge tits for a little bitch and
loved to shove them in her vatos faces.
After work one night she walked into
the kitchen and saw Carlos the chef
making fajitas.  He was listening to
some hot chijaja music while Maria snuck
up behind him and reached around for
a feel of that long......

http://www.monkeyspanker.com http://www.monkeyspanker.com
http://www.monkeyspanker.com http://www.monkeyspanker.com


VTKOIHUROFOEBETSHZXMKPMBEAFUDYHHBHACUANV
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:02:05 -0500
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From:         Dan Fitzpatrick <dfitzpatrick@SCB.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fuller's Predictions Re-Predicted
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96.980425103118.575A-100000@user2.teleport.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hello,
 I'm Dan.... I'm new to the list, and based on some of the discussions I've
read, I won't be able to hang for too long... My math isn't nearly as strong
as what some of what I've seen....
  Anyway the reason I joined the list, is I've always been fascinated
by Buckminster Fuller's discoveries. I may not understand most of it.....
What I am trying to find, or better yet, what I want to do is build
a dome out of cardboard for my kids like a play house. Not only that but it
will give me a chance to better understand and learn.
Another thing that I was wondering about and this has something to do with
the
"future" is the large domes that are able to float in the air.....
"floating cities" how realistic is it?...
Hopefully everyone will be able to put up with me....

Thanks

Dan









At 10:34 AM 4/25/98 -0700, you wrote:
>R. Buckminster Fuller wasn't the only one predicting these things, but
>he's my favorite.
>
>Linkname: BBC News | Sci/Tech | Less work more play - but not until 2020
>URL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/low/english/sci/tech/newsid_83000/83388.stm
>Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:28:15 GMT
>
>[excerpt]
>
>Families in 2020 will go on holiday through space and leave household
>chores to robots, according to a report published on Saturday.
>
>Workers will spend just 15 hours a week sitting at multi-media work
>stations in their homes and children will swap their schools for "cyber
>classrooms", say researchers at the Henley Centre.
>
>Increased leisure time will be spent making cheap long-distance video
>phone calls to friends, downloading videos and going shopping via the
>Internet, they predict.
>
>--
>  _________________________________________
>  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
>  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
>  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
>  -----------------------------------------
>   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.htm
>
>
Daniel Fitzpatrick
Technical Recruiter
(888) 812-3418
www.scb.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:39:31 EDT
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From:         MORRmike <MORRmike@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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can someone please tell me how to get off of this listserver?  thanks a bunch!
mike
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Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:55:42 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fuller's Predictions Re-Predicted
Comments: To: Dan Fitzpatrick <dfitzpatrick@SCB.COM>
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19980427090205.006969d0@popmail.ixlmemphis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:
> What I am trying to find, or better yet, what I want to do is build
> a dome out of cardboard for my kids like a play house. Not only that but it
> will give me a chance to better understand and learn.

A lengthy and detailed thread about cardboard domes just occured in
synergetics/geodesic; look through the archives.

> Another thing that I was wondering about and this has something to do
> with the "future" is the large domes that are able to float in the
> air.....  "floating cities" how realistic is it?...

As realistic as the eradication of smallpox, humans on the moon, World War
Two, nanotechnology, the Internet or anything else design science sets its
sights on.

- Trevor Blake

--
J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:02:02 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      This Is What We're Up Against
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

[Would-be] teachers and students of synergetics take note...

   Linkname: AM NEWS ABUSE
        URL: http://www.amnewsabuse.com/
       Date: Monday, 27-Apr-98 15:56:26 GMT

Look You WANTED The Old Math: - Saying the curriculum itself is solid,
administrators at Adcock Elementary in Las Vegas defended the school's use
of 35-year-old textbooks from 1963. They include statements such as
'During your lifetime, man will probably land on the moon.'

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:09:11 -0400
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From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fuller's Predictions Re-Predicted
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Dan,
    You wrote:
<<What I am trying to find, or better yet, what I want to do is build
a dome out of cardboard for my kids like a play house. Not only that but =
it
will give me a chance to better understand and learn.>>

       Simply cut out 15 equal lateral triangles from cardboard and tape
them together in the form of an icosahedron.  If you use triangles with 4=
'
edges you will have a 3/4 dome with a circumference of 20' or around a
diameter of 6' with a height of about 5'.  Cut a door opening in one of t=
he
lower panels and you will have a non weather resistant play house.
      The next level of simplified domes would be a icosidodecahedron.  I=
t
is simply composed of equal lateral triangles and pentagons.  The ratio o=
f
the chord lengths to the radius is 1.00/1.6180339, where 1.6180339 is the=

"Golden Section", a primary component in the structure of Nature.  If you=
r
primary chord length is 10'  then your radius would be 16.180339'.   =

Bob
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/geodesic.htm
(fabrication plans for a 32' modified icosidodecahedron)
 =
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:39:17 -0700
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From:         The Butterfly <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      SPAM on the list (Re: HEADS UP PAT=Cindy)
Comments: To: belt@Oswego.EDU
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.96.980427095256.18536A-100000@rocky-gw.oswego.edu>
              (message from John Belt on Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:58:38 -0400 (EDT))

-Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:58:38 -0400 (EDT)
-From: John Belt <belt@Oswego.EDU>
-
-       Hi Pat,  How is everything going with the new place?
-It is crunch time here and gotta go for a crit session now.
        Things are going pretty well, here. Finally starting to settle in,
and the place is quite wonderful. We found the blueprints for it. It's a
35' 3-frequency icosa, with the added wing on the side. (2 more bedrooms &
a bath).

-Thought i would wave a flag for you just in case you could knock it off if
-you happened to be around the next time.
-
-Have a good day X 365, john
-
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-John Belt, Design Faculty              Phone:  (Office)315-341-2868
-Department of Technology                       (Studio)315-341-2867
-SUNY Oswego                            Fax:    315-341-3363
-Oswego, NY 13126
----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
----------- Forwarded message ----------
-Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:48:10 -0700
-From: Cindy <artexpress@SESAME.COM>
-Reply-To: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
-     <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
-To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
-Newsgroups: bit.listserv.geodesic
-Subject: Be near me hot stud

        Thanks for the heads-up. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do
about this, without drastically changing the structure of the list. See
that "Newsgroups:" line? That means it was posted via USENET (where most
SPAM originates) and since the list is peered with USENET, things
cross-post freely from one direction to the other. That means that the
person who posted that probably just spammed several thousand newsgroups
        Due to the mail<->news gateway we set up years ago, anything posted
to the newsgroup goes to the list, and anything mailed to the list goes to
the newsgroup. If we were to drop the gateway, many folks who access the
list via USENET would be severed from the discussion on the mail portion,
and vice-versa.

        About the best thing I'd recommend is to set up some spam filters
with your mail program. I use them here and they catch about 95% of the
crap that gets mailed to me. (SPAMmers are pretty un-original, you
see... Once you have the basic words down, you filter out most of it.)

        Sorry I can't do more to prevent this. It's just in the nature of
how the list is linked to USENET, and I think the costs of restructuring
would outweigh the benefits.

Pat
           ___________________Think For Yourself____________________
           Patrick G. Salsbury - http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/
      Check out the Reality Sculptors Project: http://www.sculptors.com/
           ---------------------------------------------------------
              The Internet...it's not just for porn anymore. ;^)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:58:02 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

In article <35438953.271035926@news.teleport.com>,
Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
>Murray.Root@mindspring.com (Danette & Murray Root) wrote:

>>I've often wondered about people who say things like 'math changes'. I'm
forty
>>years old, and 2+2 STILL equals 4, just like it did when I was a kid.
>>The calculus I learned in high school still works. So does the algebra and
>>trigonometry.


>I was talking more over the long haul.  The calculus was invented
>around the time Ben Franklin was learning arithmetic

Calculus was "household" among mathematicians by that time.

                        .................

>Math is a scene of new inventions, new language games, many driven
>into the foreground by real world exigencies.  The theater is
>likewise the scene of new plays, which doesn't mean the old stuff
>is necessarily invalid or obsolete.

Of course there are new inventions; it is a progression of knowledge.
It has no similarity with art.

 We still do Shakespeare in
>English class too -- and with good reason.  Some forgotten
>screenplays make a comeback, or golden oldies get new life on
>prime time (sometimes set to a more contemporary beat).

We do not teach alchemy, or Ptolemaic astronomy.  These are the
scientific analogues of the "golden oldies".  We do not teach the
atomic theory of the 19th century, although it was what led
Mendeleev to the periodic table.  In fact, we do not use the
word "atom" in its original meaning, which was the way that those
working in physics and chemistry used it until nearly the end of
the 19th century; it is Greek for "without parts; indivisible".

>Kyle's point is more to the point that math has changed a lot. As
>"ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" (tired cliche, sorry), what you
>learn in the earlier grades keeps getting overturned by something
>you learn later (overturnings sometimes vigorously resisted by
>mathematicians of the time) -- which isn't to excuse the hodge-
>podge we serve kids today, full of retractions, contradictions,
>empty hype.

Ontology does not quite recapitulate phylogeny.  We are trying to
figure out what the early life forms were, but we do not find them
now, nor do we find them in the development of the current ones.

We make no attempt to teach that earth, air, fire, and water are the
basic ingredients of matter, nor that the astronomical objects travel
in orbits around the earth composed of circles and modifications of
them.  We make no attempt to teach the methods used to do arithmetic
for thousands of years before the introduction of the "Arabic"
numerals.

We do not discard old art; it is still esthetic.  We throw out
old knowledge when we find it wrong.  But with the introduction
of the use of logical reasoning in mathematics, the old things
are only marginally wrong, and they can usually be patched.  We
may find better ways, in which case we should do this.  The more
general it is, the less there is to confuse us.
--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:36:15 -0500
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From:         Dan Fitzpatrick <dfitzpatrick@SCB.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fuller's Predictions Re-Predicted
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To let you know I got your message and say Thanks, by the way nice house.

Dan



At 12:09 PM 4/27/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Dan,
>    You wrote:
><<What I am trying to find, or better yet, what I want to do is build
>a dome out of cardboard for my kids like a play house. Not only that but it
>will give me a chance to better understand and learn.>>
>
>       Simply cut out 15 equal lateral triangles from cardboard and tape
>them together in the form of an icosahedron.  If you use triangles with 4'
>edges you will have a 3/4 dome with a circumference of 20' or around a
>diameter of 6' with a height of about 5'.  Cut a door opening in one of the
>lower panels and you will have a non weather resistant play house.
>      The next level of simplified domes would be a icosidodecahedron.  It
>is simply composed of equal lateral triangles and pentagons.  The ratio of
>the chord lengths to the radius is 1.00/1.6180339, where 1.6180339 is the
>"Golden Section", a primary component in the structure of Nature.  If your
>primary chord length is 10'  then your radius would be 16.180339'.
>Bob
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/geodesic.htm
>(fabrication plans for a 32' modified icosidodecahedron)
>
>
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Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:35:06 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

>>I was talking more over the long haul.  The calculus was invented
>>around the time Ben Franklin was learning arithmetic
>
>Calculus was "household" among mathematicians by that time.
>

Ben hoped to get an interview with Isaac Newton when he went
to England as a young guy (supposedly with a letter of credit
from the governor of Pennsylvania, but that didn't pan out --
nor did the interview). As a boy, he didn't have the option
to learn calculus in school, even if the news had traveled
among some mathematicians (was it still called 'fluxions'
I wonder?). But yes, my "around the time" was vague --
I expect you may have a more complete timeline handy.

>>Math is a scene of new inventions, new language games, many driven
>>into the foreground by real world exigencies.  The theater is
>>likewise the scene of new plays, which doesn't mean the old stuff
>>is necessarily invalid or obsolete.
>
>Of course there are new inventions; it is a progression of knowledge.
>It has no similarity with art.
>

Yes it does have similarity with art, in that you can find a lot
of cultural links back and forth which feed on one another, link
artist schools and movements to developments and discoveries in
math-science.

For example, the explosion of interest in the '4th dimension' at
the turn of the century gave popularity to works by Ouspensky and
Bragdon.  To this day, "dimension talk" gets mixed up with mysticism
to some degree -- to judge from the first episode of 'Life by the
Numbers', which aired on PBS recently.  And look at Tony Robbins,
going back and forth between canvas and 4-D geometry on screen.
Certainly computers have helped converge art and mathematics in
ways that sometimes make it hard to say where one starts and the
other ends (how important is it to draw this line in every case?).

> We still do Shakespeare in
>>English class too -- and with good reason.  Some forgotten
>>screenplays make a comeback, or golden oldies get new life on
>>prime time (sometimes set to a more contemporary beat).
>
>We do not teach alchemy, or Ptolemaic astronomy.

We do in history of science class, some others (I had to read
some Paracelcus at Princeton), although rarely in excrutiating
detail and, in the case of alchemy especially, with a lot of
difficulty recreating the context of that mindset -- well
nigh impossible by this time.  But some scholars give it
their best shot.

>These are the scientific analogues of the "golden oldies".

I was thinking more of mathematical analogous, going back and
recreating Renaissance math and teaching it more the way it
looked back then, for example.

>We do not teach the atomic theory of the 19th century, although
>it was what led Mendeleev to the periodic table.  In fact, we do
>not use the word "atom" in its original meaning, which was the
>way that those working in physics and chemistry used it until
>nearly the end of the 19th century; it is Greek for "without
>parts; indivisible".
>

We probably could resurrect the 'visual atom' tradition, even
in this post-Heisenberg era, with the argument that a it serves
a mnemonic purpose, helps kids remember and organize experimentally
verified data using a mental picture which is not meant to be a
"literal view" of what atomic internal look like.  This would maybe
be preferable to leaving the 1950s atom entrenched on the visual
front while offering rather lame depictions of s,p,d clouds. We
could do a lot more in the realm of art to make atomics more
accessible, without doing damage to the science, is my view.
Ken Snelson, an artist, has been working on such a visual atom.
At least one chemistry text book has made use of it for cover
art and 'Chemical Intelligencer' (Springer-Verlag) has expressed
an interest in publishing more details.

>Ontology does not quite recapitulate phylogeny.  We are trying to
>figure out what the early life forms were, but we do not find them
>now, nor do we find them in the development of the current ones.
>

Yes I know, that's a tired cliche and a lot of evolutionary
biologists wish it would go away.

>We make no attempt to teach that earth, air, fire, and water are the
>basic ingredients of matter, nor that the astronomical objects travel
>in orbits around the earth composed of circles and modifications of
>them.

We do teach the Gibbs phase rule re solids, liquids, gases as
related to degrees of freedom and chemical components in a system
however. In the humanities, we can link such phase rule thinking
to metaphors for systems of philosophy -- some are more gaseous
and lack a crystalline core (but one might form if we'd just
turn down the heat a bit, make it more Vulcan, less Kirk and
more Spock).  Other times, thinking gets stuck in densified
logic to where it doesn't flow anymore, fails to keep up
("slow creep" syndrome).  The liquid phase is perhaps the
least eccentric (between gaseous-nebulous and crystal-dense).
But this is alchemy obviously, which "we" don't teach (means
we don't give out a Ph.D. in it?  Hyuk hyuk).

>We make no attempt to teach the methods used to do arithmetic
>for thousands of years before the introduction of the "Arabic"
>numerals.
>

Ralph Abraham thinks we should, for reasons in part contributed
by Sheldrake.  He'd like kids to relive the Babylonian chapter
in more detail, and synch that experience to what was going on
in civilization at the time -- through art, agriculture etc.
An interesting curriculum, which he tried to implement at a
school in Long Island, though it turned out finding any math
teachers with any willingness to learn something new (i.e.
Babylonian math) was very difficult.

>We do not discard old art; it is still esthetic.  We throw out
>old knowledge when we find it wrong.

But mathematics, a science of patterns, may not become "wrong"
just because the contemporary science moves on.  This is why
we can still read old math books and enjoy them, doing more
to put them in context.  We can read old science books too,
and do in many universities, because "knowledge" includes
knowing what people used to think, even if that's not how
we think today -- the way we read Russell's Principia for
example, or a lot of what used to be studied as Economics.

>But with the introduction
>of the use of logical reasoning in mathematics, the old things
>are only marginally wrong, and they can usually be patched.  We
>may find better ways, in which case we should do this.  The more
>general it is, the less there is to confuse us.

Yes, right, my distinction exactly.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:42:30 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

>The new math was introduced by mathematicians who found that their children
>did not understand when taught to manipulate.  It was as well tested as
>anything introduced by the educationists.  It was a real surprise that the
>teachers even had any problems with it.

Maybe they'll do better now that we have SQL to play with.

It's a waste to go through all that Venn diagram stuff, union and
intersection of sets, and not make the tie-in to computerized
databases, which are so central to life in contemporary civilization.

You'll see that out here in the Silicon Forest, we're making sure
that Boolean operators and sets get linked to filtering criteria
applied to records, which in turn ties to business rules and so
on.

Fun to boot a copy of Microsoft Access and play with sample data
in 7th grade, provided we have plenty of Pentiums (no excuse not
to, in my neck of the woods).

Kirby

Cite: http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/outline0.html for more
of the curriculum outline I'm using.

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:03:35 GMT
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From:         Michael Dickens <mdickens@TETRANET.NET>
Organization: newsread.com ISP News Reading Service
Subject:      Dome Planning

Let me preface this with I've only read enough regarding dome structures to be
somewhat dangerous and sophmoric.

I'm in the 'planning' stages of building a dome home... having built 2
conventional homes before the contruction aspects of a dome structure seem
rather straight forward.

One of the areas I'm concentrating on is utilization of materials by selecting
the most appropriate size of 'triangle' to eliminate as much waste and
maximize economy.

I enjoy mathematics but somewhere along the line my geometry/trig went to the
bit bucket.  Can some one point me to a site / document that I can use to do
the calculations for the various compound angles, strut lengths, diameter,
based on # of frequencies,  etc.

I know this is childs' play to most of you on this list so be kind...
TIA

Michael
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Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:31:27 -0700
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From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fuller's Predictions Re-Predicted
Comments: To: Dan Fitzpatrick <dfitzpatrick@scb.com>
Comments: cc: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19980427113721.0068c31c@popmail.ixlmemphis.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:
> The floating dome....how is it supposed to work?

Buckyworks by J. Baldwin is as good a place to start as any...

> I read at a sight that the air inside the dome would be different on the
> inside of the dome from the outside and would cause it to float like a
> helium balloon.  Has anyone tried it with a smaller version? How would
> the air inside the dome be changed? Can it be done with other shapes or
> just a sphere?  Does the size matter? (a dangerous question I know...)
> If it could be done with a sphere a mile in diameter? Could one be
> designed for say one or two people....

The size is the key issue: it could only work in the larger size.  A
sphere is the most economical size for such a project.  Read up, it's out
there.

- Trevor Blake

--
J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
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Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:05:36 PDT
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From:         Stanley@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Organization: Email Platinum v.3.1b
Subject:      My First Print

I would like to invite you to view  "HANGIN IT UP", a limited addition print of
an original oil painting.
You may visit this print at http://www.ovnet.com/~estanley/Working2.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:39:36 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

In article <3544b4c9.347709563@news.teleport.com>,
Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com> wrote:
>hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

>>The new math was introduced by mathematicians who found that their children
>>did not understand when taught to manipulate.  It was as well tested as
>>anything introduced by the educationists.  It was a real surprise that the
>>teachers even had any problems with it.

>Maybe they'll do better now that we have SQL to play with.

Any use of "gimmicks" gets in the way.  The ideas are simple enough.

>It's a waste to go through all that Venn diagram stuff, union and
>intersection of sets,

I have never thought much of Venn diagrams; the simpler truth tables
do a better job, with full flexibility.  A picture here is not worth
a thousand words; it is distracting.

While I do not like the set approach, preferring instead the ordinal
approach which is self contained, confusing the abstract concepts
will not help.  Children know enough sets.

and not make the tie-in to computerized
>databases, which are so central to life in contemporary civilization.

This is a specialized APPLICATION.  You would have to teach what
a database is first.

>You'll see that out here in the Silicon Forest, we're making sure
>that Boolean operators and sets get linked to filtering criteria
>applied to records, which in turn ties to business rules and so
>on.

>Fun to boot a copy of Microsoft Access and play with sample data
>in 7th grade, provided we have plenty of Pentiums (no excuse not
>to, in my neck of the woods).

Mathematical concepts will be more difficult to learn in 7th grade.
First grade is late enough.  For good formal mathematical logic,
I would make it around third to fifth, at the latest.  But variables
go with the alphabet.
--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
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Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 04:30:44 GMT
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Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
MIME-Version: 1.0
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hrubin@b.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) wrote:

>>Maybe they'll do better now that we have SQL to play with.
>
>Any use of "gimmicks" gets in the way.  The ideas are simple enough.
>

Not a gimmick.  You seem to forget that early curriculum does not
pre-commit students to becoming clones of yourself, or any brand
of academic mathematician (that'd be a grotesque outcome vis-a-vis
the hopes and dreams many kids harbor).

For some, the SQL approach will be primary, the traditional set
theory presentation more secondary, and this is as it should be...
for some.

>and not make the tie-in to computerized
>>databases, which are so central to life in contemporary civilization.
>
>This is a specialized APPLICATION.  You would have to teach what
>a database is first.
>

Becoming a math professor is also an APPLICATION.  Every special
case is a temporal expression of eternal principles.  So what?

Database = collection of records.  Didn't take long, did it?

>Mathematical concepts will be more difficult to learn in 7th grade.

About the right age for SQL I think.

>First grade is late enough.  For good formal mathematical logic,
>I would make it around third to fifth, at the latest.  But variables
>go with the alphabet.

Sure, we've been introducing a lot of these concepts much earlier
for some decades now.  I am myself a product of the "new math"
curriculum and appreciate the relevance of some of it.  Now if we
can just bring the geometry up to speed...

Not every language traces to an alphabet of course (partly why our
curriculum starts with unicode early in the picture).

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
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4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:22:15 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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===============

Fun (?) project (which I haven't actually done myself, yet)...

GIVEN:

A geodesic sphere with omnitrianglulated surface as per Rick
Bono's DOME freeware

de Jong's expression for the volume of any tetrahedron given
edges a,b,c,d,e,f where a,b,c are radials from a common vertex
to triangle d,e,f [1]

GET:

Volume of the sphere of frequency f, obtained by setting all
radials a,b,c = 1 and summing volumes of 'def tetrahedra'.[2]

The simplified volume expression for each 'def tetrahedron'
will be:

defTet = ROOT { [2 (d^2 e^2 + d^2 f^2 + e^2 f^2)
                 - d^2 e^2 f^2
                 - (d^4 + e^4 + f^4)]/2 }

NOTES:

[1] similar to but derived independently from Euler's expression

[2] As frequency increases, the volume will approach that of a
"perfect" sphere of the same radius.  This serves as a check,
noting we're using a tetrahedron to model 1^3 where 1 = ivm
sphere diameter.  In other words, the above geodesic sphere
will have a radius twice as long as an ivm sphere's and
therefore 8x the volume.


References:

http://www.cris.com/~rjbono/html/domes.html  (software, gallery)
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/domegeo.html  (Java 1.0)
http://www.beautifulcode.nl/voxel/Sublimation.html (Java 1.1)
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadvols.html (context)
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/urner.html (context)

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
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Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:42:53 PDT
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From:         AMYAND@FRIENDS.COM
Organization: Email PLATINUM
Subject:      I AM FREE BABY

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Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:07:35 -0400
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From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Dome Planning
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Michael,
You wrote:
<<One of the areas I'm concentrating on is utilization of materials by
selecting
the most appropriate size of 'triangle' to eliminate as much waste and
maximize economy.... Can some one point me to a site / document that I ca=
n
use to do
the calculations for the various compound angles, strut lengths, diameter=
,
based on # of frequencies,  etc.>>

    For a modified icosidodecahedron, which is equivalent to a 2nd
frequency dome, the ratio of the chord lengths and radius is .884308,
1.00000, 1.6180339.  The 10 equal lateral triangle chords being 1.0,1.0,
1.0 and the 30 pentagon triangle chord lengths being 1.0000, .884308,
=2E884308, and the radius ratio to main 1.0 chord being 1.6180339.  I hav=
e
done a take off for a 32' structure using 225 - 10'  2x4's with almost no=

waste.  This comes out to be about $562.50 for the 2x4 lumber and $900 fo=
r
the 5/8" plywood with a waste ratio of approximately 20% for the plywood.=
  =

Bob
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/geodesic.htm
(fabrication chart for 32' geodesic)
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:10:20 -0500
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From:         anthony kalenak <amkalenak@WEBTV.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fuller's Predictions Re-Predicted
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Dan,
Check out www.seagull.net/rowley/DomeHome
for my cardboard dome (with plans).
-Tony.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:15:12 -0600
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From:         Robin Chapman <rjc@MATHS.EX.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Exeter
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)

In article <354567e7.393569954@news.teleport.com>,
  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
>
> de Jong's expression for the volume of any tetrahedron given
> edges a,b,c,d,e,f where a,b,c are radials from a common vertex
> to triangle d,e,f [1]
>
> [1] similar to but derived independently from Euler's expression
>
Is Euler's expression wrong then? If de Jong's expression is similar
but not equivalent to Euler's, and Euler's is correct then de Jong's
expression must be wrong. If they are both correct then they
must be equivalent, and so de Jong's expression can be deduced
from Euler's, in which case I guess that the import of the above
sentence is that de Jong has derived Euler's formula in a "different"
manner to that in the textbooks. One wonders then whether de Jong's
method has any special interest or is superior in any way to any other
method of proving Euler's formula?

Robin Chapman                           + "They did not have proper
Department of Mathematics               -  palms at home in Exeter."
University of Exeter, EX4 4QE, UK       +
rjc@maths.exeter.ac.uk                  -    Peter Carey,
http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html +      Oscar and Lucinda


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Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:02:10 GMT
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From:         Alberto Moreira <junkmail@MOREIRA.MV.COM>
Organization: MV Communications
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Also sprach "Kyle R. Green" <krgreen@hotmail.com> :

>Hmm...two things:
>
>I agree with Eric Lee Green.  Knowing the cosine of 38 degrees isn't
>going to get unjust laws changed.

Yet it may help changing our lives to such an extent that a few such
laws may become totally obsolete.

>Also, that math changes bit that Kirby talked about.  Is that something
>like being told during early elementry school that you can't do 2-3,
>there are no numbers less than zero, etc., then being told in seventh
>grade that there are?  I got low grades in math in elementary school
>just because I insisted upon the reality of negative numbers.  Then,
>being told in middle school that you can't take the square root of these
>new negative numbers, then being told in H.S. Algebra that you can?
>
>Were these things just discovered as we were covering them in class?  If
>so, I'm impressed at the speed in which they printed the new textbooks.

Coming back to something I often repeat here: mathematics is created
by man. Therefore, we can create "negative" numbers any way we deem
necessary, and ascribe them with any properties we need them to have.
Therefore, can you take the square root of negative numbers ? Depends
on how you define a negative number, depends on what space you're
operating, depends under which formal system you're reasoning.

Mathematics is about building models. Negative numbers "aren't",
except inside our own minds, and we make them be whatever suits us
best.


Alberto.
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Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:20:31 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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junkmail@moreira.mv.com (Alberto Moreira) wrote:


>Therefore, can you take the square root of negative numbers ?

Don't even have to call them "square" -- e.g. in my curriculum
2nd roots are more commonly associated with triangles.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:28:59 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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junkmail@moreira.mv.com (Alberto Moreira) wrote:

>And then the hairy question comes, what's this "four" thing ? Can you
>define it for me ? Or must we accept that each number must be taken
>axiomatically, based on our intuitive meaning of the corresponding
>word concept ? If so, we're dealing with a science with an infinite
>number of axioms, a rather unwelcome and unwieldy animal.
>

Definitions are operational -- you learn what something means
by learning how it is used in a game, like a pawn in chess,
a gear in a clockworks.

The abacus was a useful counting device which people understood,
introduces 'place value' and columns with 'no beads' (genesis
of zero).

But what if you don't have an abacus?  Squiggles in sand,
some algorithms for manipulating them, and you've got what
you need.  That's a context for '4', a game that makes sense.

You can get all deep and scholastic in some geeky greek
tradition and imagine name->object pointers from symbols
into a Platonic realm, i.e. from '4' to some 'thing' of
eternal significance (a dubious picture of what "meaning"
means).

Fortunately, not all philosophy is geeky greek, and the
rest of us can just get on with it, quite happy with our
language games involving '4', and without worrying about
your "axioms" (many of which we don't share).

Kirby
4D Solutions

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:13:22 GMT
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From:         Alberto Moreira <junkmail@MOREIRA.MV.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Also sprach Murray.Root@mindspring.com (Danette & Murray Root) :

>I've often wondered about people who say things like 'math changes'. I'm forty
>years old, and 2+2 STILL equals 4, just like it did when I was a kid.

Indeed, if "+" is limited to mean the standard addition, over the
standard number space. But 2+2 "isn't" 4, we just *define* addition so
that it happens that way, and because we operate by default on a space
to which the number 4 belongs. Define addition differently, or, say,
operate on a 4-element group, and 2+2 is not 4. Operate in quaternary
and 2+2 isn't 4 but 10; note here the fundamental difference between
the number "four" and the digit "4".

And then the hairy question comes, what's this "four" thing ? Can you
define it for me ? Or must we accept that each number must be taken
axiomatically, based on our intuitive meaning of the corresponding
word concept ? If so, we're dealing with a science with an infinite
number of axioms, a rather unwelcome and unwieldy animal.

>The calculus I learned in high school still works. So does the algebra and
>trigonometry.

Yet this is the digital age, and discrete mathematics is as important
as its more traditional counterpart, if nothing more. There are many
applications of mathematics to the computer age that require
mathematical machinery that doesn't quite behave the same way we're
taught in good old algebra, trig and calculus.

>There have been changes in the way math is taught, but they don't usually last
>more than a couple of years.

Which is a pity, because it's fast creating a gap in mathematical
knowledge between those capable of "discretize" their mathematical
knowledge. If computers were analog, nothing would have changed much;
but they're digital, and that changes the whole game. The 19th century
style engineering math we learn is still adequate to a variety of
things, and very necessary to real life in science and technology; but
there's a whole new world there, that's not taught in HS.


Alberto.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:53:23 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>In article <354567e7.393569954@news.teleport.com>,
>  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
>>
>> de Jong's expression for the volume of any tetrahedron given
>> edges a,b,c,d,e,f where a,b,c are radials from a common vertex
>> to triangle d,e,f [1]
>>
>> [1] similar to but derived independently from Euler's expression
>>
>Is Euler's expression wrong then? If de Jong's expression is similar
>but not equivalent to Euler's, and Euler's is correct then de Jong's
>expression must be wrong.

de Jong's uses the convention that a tetrahedron 1x1x1 has a
volume of 1, as per Synergetics.  Euler's goes with the more
traditional cube as the prime unit of volumetric mensuration.

Also, de Jong expresses his formula as follows:

Vol(Tet) = ROOT[ ( Open - Closed - Opposite )/2 ]

and provides a Java applet animation for showing what this
means (e.g. 'Open' means 'open triangles' and consists of
terms like a^2 d^2 e^2, whereas 'Closed' triangles are
like d^2 e^2 f^2). Did Euler ever group his terms under
headings with a geometric interpretation?

>If they are both correct then they
>must be equivalent, and so de Jong's expression can be deduced
>from Euler's, in which case I guess that the import of the above
>sentence is that de Jong has derived Euler's formula in a "different"
>manner to that in the textbooks. One wonders then whether de Jong's
>method has any special interest or is superior in any way to any other
>method of proving Euler's formula?
>

de Jong's expression is probably easier to remember for many plus,
as I said, is set up around a unit volume tetrahedron, which for
some applications is better.

Euler was not wrong of course, he was just playing a different game.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:05:44 -0500
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From:         Dan Fitzpatrick <dfitzpatrick@SCB.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fuller's Predictions Re-Predicted
In-Reply-To:  <199804281310.GAA21241@mailtod-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
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Thanks  I will check it out...

Dan


At 08:10 AM 4/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Dan,
>Check out www.seagull.net/rowley/DomeHome
>for my cardboard dome (with plans).
>-Tony.
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:34:37 -0400
Reply-To:     m_moy@juno.com
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From:         Michael Moy <m_moy@JUNO.COM>
Organization: None
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Alberto Moreira wrote:
>
> Also sprach Murray.Root@mindspring.com (Danette & Murray Root) :
> >The calculus I learned in high school still works. So does the algebra and
> >trigonometry.
>
> Yet this is the digital age, and discrete mathematics is as important
> as its more traditional counterpart, if nothing more. There are many
> applications of mathematics to the computer age that require
> mathematical machinery that doesn't quite behave the same way we're
> taught in good old algebra, trig and calculus.

I've found discrete math and language theory to be far more useful than
geometry, trigonometry and calculus in software engineering.

> >There have been changes in the way math is taught, but they don't usually
last
> >more than a couple of years.
>
> Which is a pity, because it's fast creating a gap in mathematical
> knowledge between those capable of "discretize" their mathematical
> knowledge. If computers were analog, nothing would have changed much;
> but they're digital, and that changes the whole game. The 19th century
> style engineering math we learn is still adequate to a variety of
> things, and very necessary to real life in science and technology; but
> there's a whole new world there, that's not taught in HS.

I learned a lot of the little pieces of discrete math by doing exercises
in programming books before college. Taking the courses formally opened
my eyes to what could be done and what could be built upon what we
already know.

I'd like to see a parallel track of discrete math, algorithms and data
structures and language theory as an option under science or math in
the high schools that a student could take in addition to the normal
math and science courses. These subjects can probably be taught with
an Algebra I background.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:11:47 GMT
Reply-To:     Murray.Root@mindspring.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Danette & Murray Root <Murray.Root@MINDSPRING.COM>
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:13:22 GMT, junkmail@moreira.mv.com (Alberto Moreira)
wrote in talk.politics.libertarian:

=> Also sprach Murray.Root@mindspring.com (Danette & Murray Root) :
=>
=> >I've often wondered about people who say things like 'math changes'. I'm
forty
=> >years old, and 2+2 STILL equals 4, just like it did when I was a kid.
=>
=> Indeed, if "+" is limited to mean the standard addition, over the
=> standard number space. But 2+2 "isn't" 4, we just *define* addition so
=> that it happens that way, and because we operate by default on a space
=> to which the number 4 belongs. Define addition differently, or, say,
=> operate on a 4-element group, and 2+2 is not 4. Operate in quaternary
=> and 2+2 isn't 4 but 10; note here the fundamental difference between
=> the number "four" and the digit "4".
=>
=> And then the hairy question comes, what's this "four" thing ? Can you
=> define it for me ? Or must we accept that each number must be taken
=> axiomatically, based on our intuitive meaning of the corresponding
=> word concept ? If so, we're dealing with a science with an infinite
=> number of axioms, a rather unwelcome and unwieldy animal.
=>
=> >The calculus I learned in high school still works. So does the algebra and
=> >trigonometry.
=>
=> Yet this is the digital age, and discrete mathematics is as important
=> as its more traditional counterpart, if nothing more. There are many
=> applications of mathematics to the computer age that require
=> mathematical machinery that doesn't quite behave the same way we're
=> taught in good old algebra, trig and calculus.

I, and most of the people I WORK with, design software. We do so using the
mathematical tools we were taught in the '70s. The ones who have problems are
the ones who came out of school in the late '80s - they can't understand such
things as imprecise floating point and why some numbers CANNOT be represented
EXACTLY in a computer.
Binary, octal, and hexadecimal math was part of my sixth grade arithmetic
class. I have an eight grade son who had never seen it 'til he came to live
with me last year.

=>
=> >There have been changes in the way math is taught, but they don't usually
last
=> >more than a couple of years.
=>
=> Which is a pity, because it's fast creating a gap in mathematical
=> knowledge between those capable of "discretize" their mathematical
=> knowledge. If computers were analog, nothing would have changed much;
=> but they're digital, and that changes the whole game. The 19th century
=> style engineering math we learn is still adequate to a variety of
=> things, and very necessary to real life in science and technology; but
=> there's a whole new world there, that's not taught in HS.

They don't even teach the 'old' world in HS. From what I am seeing, HS is
nothing but a glorified nursery, holding punks out of society's hair for 6
hours a day. The kids who DO get an education are to be praised for their
self-motivation and effort.


__________________________________________________________________

Copyright 1998, Murray J. Root
I do not admit to saying, posting, or writing anything.
You may copy, reprint, repost, or otherwise disseminate
any of this information in any format you desire, as long
as you do not attempt to attach any blame to me.
__________________________________________________________________

http://mroot.home.mindspring.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 02:14:04 -0600
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From:         Robin Chapman <rjc@MATHS.EX.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Exeter
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)

In article <3545f955.430806308@news.teleport.com>,
  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
>
> Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> >In article <354567e7.393569954@news.teleport.com>,
> >  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
> >>
> >> de Jong's expression for the volume of any tetrahedron given
> >> edges a,b,c,d,e,f where a,b,c are radials from a common vertex
> >> to triangle d,e,f [1]
> >>
> >> [1] similar to but derived independently from Euler's expression
> >>
> >Is Euler's expression wrong then? If de Jong's expression is similar
> >but not equivalent to Euler's, and Euler's is correct then de Jong's
> >expression must be wrong.
>
> de Jong's uses the convention that a tetrahedron 1x1x1 has a
> volume of 1, as per Synergetics.  Euler's goes with the more
> traditional cube as the prime unit of volumetric mensuration.

SO the answer is yes, apart from an inessential normalizing factor.

> Also, de Jong expresses his formula as follows:
>
> Vol(Tet) = ROOT[ ( Open - Closed - Opposite )/2 ]
>
> and provides a Java applet animation for showing what this
> means (e.g. 'Open' means 'open triangles' and consists of
> terms like a^2 d^2 e^2, whereas 'Closed' triangles are
> like d^2 e^2 f^2). Did Euler ever group his terms under
> headings with a geometric interpretation?

I don't know. I must admit I haven't read Euler; I have rather neglected
my Latin in recent years... But when I first met the volume formula I
noticed that up to a constant the square of the volume had 4 terms like
- d^2 e^2 f^2 where d e f are the edges of a face, 12 terms like
+ a^2 e^2 d^2 where d e and f are the edges of a closed path and 6
terms like - a^4 d^2 where a and d are opposite edges. I also imagined
that any other mathematician meeting this formula would have noticed this
pattern too. I had no idea at the time that one could immortalize one's
name in tha annals of synergetics by mutliplying this formula by a
constant and putting a dinky applet about it on one's webpage :-)
(Of course in those days neither appplets nor webpages existed.)

> de Jong's expression is probably easier to remember for many plus,
> as I said, is set up around a unit volume tetrahedron, which for
> some applications is better.

So de Jong's contribution is just the obvious mnemonic for Euler's formula.

> Euler was not wrong of course, he was just playing a different game.

The game of doing mathematics, as opposed to the game of modifying
a classical result by multiplying it by an inessential constant factor :-)

Robin Chapman                           + "They did not have proper
Department of Mathematics               -  palms at home in Exeter."
University of Exeter, EX4 4QE, UK       +
rjc@maths.exeter.ac.uk                  -    Peter Carey,
http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html +      Oscar and Lucinda

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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:20:26 -0800
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From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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On Wed, Apr 29, 1998 12:14 AM, Robin Chapman <mailto:rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk>
wrote:
>In article <3545f955.430806308@news.teleport.com>,
>  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
>[snip]...
>> and provides a Java applet animation for showing what this
>> means (e.g. 'Open' means 'open triangles' and consists of
>> terms like a^2 d^2 e^2, whereas 'Closed' triangles are
>> like d^2 e^2 f^2). Did Euler ever group his terms under
>> headings with a geometric interpretation?
>
>[snip].. I had no idea at the time that one could immortalize one's
>name in tha annals of synergetics by mutliplying this formula by a
>constant and putting a dinky applet about it on one's webpage :-)
>(Of course in those days neither appplets nor webpages existed.)
>

>Robin Chapman

The "annals of synergetics" is not what Kirby Urner's writing is about. It
seems more like shameless self promotion and sometimes a distortion of
Bucky Fuller's books Synergetics, 1975,  and Synergetics 2, 1979.

But, though Urner et. al. do not seem to understand all of Bucky Fuller's
writings, they recognize a ring of truth in them, and nobody else is doing
much to get people to consult their dictionaries, and use their heads, and
figure out what someone who was called "America's most famous living
genius" was revealing in his books.

Don't let Kirby's writing get mixed up with Bucky Fuller's book
Synergetics.


        Cliff Nelson
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:28:08 -0500
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From:         Herman Rubin <hrubin@B.STAT.PURDUE.EDU>
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Subject:      Discrete math

In article <3545E8FD.2285@juno.com>, Michael Moy  <m_moy@juno.com> wrote:
>Alberto Moreira wrote:

>> Also sprach Murray.Root@mindspring.com (Danette & Murray Root) :
>> >The calculus I learned in high school still works. So does the algebra and
>> >trigonometry.

>> Yet this is the digital age, and discrete mathematics is as important
>> as its more traditional counterpart, if nothing more. There are many
>> applications of mathematics to the computer age that require
>> mathematical machinery that doesn't quite behave the same way we're
>> taught in good old algebra, trig and calculus.

Part of this is that the computer does not do what it is claimed it
does.  "Floating point arithmetic" is rarely the operation it is
commonly called, and the computation of square roots and transcendental
functions is not "correct", but an approximation.  If this is realized,
the problems do not go away, but are better faced.

>I've found discrete math and language theory to be far more useful than
>geometry, trigonometry and calculus in software engineering.

Other than symbolic manipulation, which is discrete even if it refers
to non-discrete objects, there is little reference to non-discrete objects.

All mathematics is discrete, even when it refers to continuous
situations.  Expressions, theorems, proofs, etc., are finite strings
of symbols.  Computations are also discrete.



>> Which is a pity, because it's fast creating a gap in mathematical
>> knowledge between those capable of "discretize" their mathematical
>> knowledge. If computers were analog, nothing would have changed much;
>> but they're digital, and that changes the whole game.

This is wrong; it would have been realized quickly that the accuracy
of analog devices is far too low, and that it is necessary to go to
the increased precision of discrete operations.  Getting an additional
digit of accuracy in analog devices is hard; in digital devices, it
is easy.  Nobody will ever get an accurate value for pi by measuring
real-world approximations to circles.

The 19th century
>> style engineering math we learn is still adequate to a variety of
>> things, and very necessary to real life in science and technology; but
>> there's a whole new world there, that's not taught in HS.

But even here, the mathematical models involved discrete formal reasoning,
and the engineers used their books of tables and manual arithmetic to get
their answers.  Kepler, Newton, Huyghens, Cassini, and the rest of the
astronomers used digital computation, and recognized that they were making
discrete approximations.

>I learned a lot of the little pieces of discrete math by doing exercises
>in programming books before college. Taking the courses formally opened
>my eyes to what could be done and what could be built upon what we
>already know.

>I'd like to see a parallel track of discrete math, algorithms and data
>structures and language theory as an option under science or math in
>the high schools that a student could take in addition to the normal
>math and science courses. These subjects can probably be taught with
>an Algebra I background.

Some of this should be in the primary grades.  The use of sloppy
real world mathematical attempts to teach "concepts" needs to be
replaced by good rigorous treatments.
--
This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:33:21 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Robin Chapman <rjc@MATHS.EX.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Exeter
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)

In article <6i6jvs$buh$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>#1/1,
  I <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

[stuff deleted]

> + a^2 e^2 d^2 where d e and f are the edges of a closed path and 6

Ouch. I meant open path of course.

[rest deleted]

Robin Chapman                           + "They did not have proper
Department of Mathematics               -  palms at home in Exeter."
University of Exeter, EX4 4QE, UK       +
rjc@maths.exeter.ac.uk                  -    Peter Carey,
http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html +      Oscar and Lucinda


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:36:45 +0200
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         info@INTERLINK-MARKETING.COM
Comments: To: muh@northpole.ar, ldv@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at,
          t2c@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at, 2pm@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at,
          k3u@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at, k3c@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at,
          miroslav@forfree.at, 8om@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at,
          dd5@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at, 3rs@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at,
          ao2@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at, geert.van.hout@lhs.be,
          af8z5dr8j9@belpak.minsk.by, an@belpak.minsk.by, oleh@terminal.cz,
          pine.hpp.3.91.980420141231.8573b-100000@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de,
          pine.hpp.3.91.980417192042.28241b-100000@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de, hetzer.a@uni-bremen.de,
          pine.hpp.3.91.980416204430.12225g-100000@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de,
          pine.hpp.3.91.980416154258.12225c-100000@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de,
          pine.hpp.3.91.980418003915.28241c-100000@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de,
          iikgo01@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de,
          pine.hpp.3.91.980417154928.28241a-100000@commlink.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de, mw4j@andrew.cmu.edu,
          mejercit@csulb.edu, jnt@mail.utexas.edu, mmisha@nmr.mgh.harvard.edu,
          mkagalen@lynx02.dac.neu.edu, mkagalen@lynx01.dac.neu.edu,
          mmisha-2204981639270001@misha.mgh.harvard.edu,
          mqr@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu, jeellis@mail.utexas.edu,
          jdeutsch@mason2.gmu.edu, arws@maroon.tc.umn.edu,
          as691454@bcm.tmc.edu, gintare@glue.umd.edu, makar@mcphy3.med.nyu.edu,
          fcf@fiu.edu, y.chizhikov@csu-e.csuohio.edu, gaost3+@pitt.edu,
          ifti@iastate.edu, pbm@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu,
          lukyanov@u.washington.edu, em6@portal.gmu.edu, jorma@jytko.jyu.fi,
          kisu@sci.fi, suominen@tanner.suominet.fi, ylikuka@beta.sqc.fi,
          rp.moscow@agora.stm.it, val@sqdp.trc-net.co.jp, tosas@adm.vtu.lt,
          reinis@tkb.lv, wiktor@mailbox.riga.lv, muh@goby.mo,
          cjacobs@base.xs4all.nl, hermantk@wxs.delete-the-obvious.nl,
          pankiewicz@sun1000.pwr.wroc.pl, list@russ.ru, bochkar@aha.ru,
          a.evmeshenko@vaz.ru, abv@online.ru, andreyl@ccas.ru, vg@uucb.udm.ru,
          rpmoscow@glasnet.ru, russ@russ.ru, leonty@orthodox.ru, ocr@ok.ru,
          dvv@dvv.ru, gamma@orc.ru, nikst@glasnet.ru, info@yabloko.ru,
          dmart@relcom.ru, bus@deol.ru, kuznec@irk.ru, dzub@imrnov.saske.sk,
          vladimir@19.penza.su, andrew@aleks.vladimir.su, healer@nsk.online.su,
          dmart@wowa.net.kiae.su, maloff@tts.magadan.su,
          jkwill@cableinet.co.uk, a_baron@abaron.demon.co.uk,
          redux@nospam.perdrix.demon.co.uk, standa@postmaster.co.uk,
          dmarshal@freenet.columbus.oh.us,
          pine.sol.3.96.980413191542.21682r-100000@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us,
          ftek@mail.bcpl.lib.md.us
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN charset=US-ASCII

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=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:40:57 -0700
Reply-To:     oregon@domes.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Oregon Dome <oregon@DOMES.COM>
Organization: Oregon Dome, Inc.
Subject:      Re: Dome Planning
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Michael,

I'm sure that there are a number of people out there who can point you
in the direction of strut lengths and other information about the
domes.  In addition to this, there are quite a few dome manufacturers
who are also available and will help you as an owner builder.  In using
a manufacturer, you are able to take advantage of the experience that we
have built up through thousands of dome projects.

Joe Moore, on this list, maintains a list of geodesic manufacturers, and
a number of us have web sites (ours is www.domes.com) for your viewing
pleasure.  Please feel free to contact us for advice (but be warned, we
can be reticent, as this is how we make our money).  Most of us are of
the opinion that any dome built (as long as it is designed and built
well) helps the industry as a whole, and so a little advice in helping
you get it done right is of value to us as well as you (not that we will
ever agree on what is the right advice...)

Michael Dickens wrote:
>
> Let me preface this with I've only read enough regarding dome structures to be
> somewhat dangerous and sophmoric.
>
> I'm in the 'planning' stages of building a dome home... having built 2
> conventional homes before the contruction aspects of a dome structure seem
> rather straight forward.
>
> One of the areas I'm concentrating on is utilization of materials by selecting
> the most appropriate size of 'triangle' to eliminate as much waste and
> maximize economy.
>
> I enjoy mathematics but somewhere along the line my geometry/trig went to the
> bit bucket.  Can some one point me to a site / document that I can use to do
> the calculations for the various compound angles, strut lengths, diameter,
> based on # of frequencies,  etc.
>
> I know this is childs' play to most of you on this list so be kind...
> TIA
>
> Michael

--
Thanks,

Nathan Burke,
Oregon Dome, Inc.

E-mail:  oregon@domes.com
Web:  http://www.domes.com
Address:  3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR  97402
Fax:  (541) 689-9275
Phone:  (800) 572-8943
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:03:19 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Intro from new subscriber
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Intro to GEODESIC folks --

Kirby here.  Hey, thanks for the many supportive comments of
late. Below you'll see I'm trying to tie it off re 'Discrete
Math' and not deluge this list with irrelevant postings.

For those of you new to this list or not tracking all the
minutae, I should explain that GEODESIC, the e-list, is
mirrored as bit.listserv.geodesic, a newsgroup.  The two
formats are very different, including the software used to
access them.

Some years ago, GEODESIC appeared to be floundering (to me
anyway).  Like we had this army guy in Korea begging to be
unsubscribed, claiming all listserv commands were useless, and
no one could help him.  An ugly spectacle.  Plus not everyone
was as into the nitty gritty of Synergetics as I was back then,
so I resolved to form a new e-list, given my ISP was allowing
this as a free service.

And so Synergetics-L@teleport.com was born, with me the active
listowner.  The idea was to complement GEODESIC, not compete
with it.  Additional Bucky-related and/or design science lists
and newsgroups would be welcome as well (I've heard about
alt.fan.bucky, but my ISP, teleport.com, doesn't carry it).

Since that time, GEODESIC has improved considerably, from a
list management point of view, thanks to Patrick, and I don't
have the criticisms about it that I did then (I'm also a more
experienced internet user myself, years later -- I think more
patient for one thing).

One excellent feature re GEODESIC is it archives to the
University of Buffalo in a cool way, way cooler than what I do
with Synergetics-L which is just dump text file digests onto a
server, with no search engine or web-based shell (still
browser-accessible though).  More recently, some automated
listsaver subscribers have joined us on Syn-L (e.g.
Reference.com and Findmail), and these services do a better
job providing a browser interface, so the situation is
improving there as well.

Also, a lot of what gets posted by true GEODESIC subscribers
(I've been tracking by newsreader) just doesn't make it to the
newsgroup for some reason (not a perfect mirror by a long
shot).  Only when I go poking around in the archives to I even
get to read a lot of the stuff you folks have been sharing,
and a lot of it is good stuff I'd rather not miss.

So, as of this post I've resubscribed to GEODESIC and will be
tracking more with e-mail software, less with newsgroup software.

OK there, that's more than you needed to know, right?

Now here's my attempt to shield GEODESIC from further blabbing
re 'Discrete Math' (which you can always track in alt.education
or someplace, if interested)....

================

From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,
alt.education,misc.education,k12.chat.senior,k12.chat.teacher,
sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Syn-l: Re: Discrete math
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:38:12 GMT
Organization: 4D Solutions


I respectfully suggest a revised newsgroup list now that Herman
has started a new root topic (Discrete Math).

I jumped in on Civil Disobedience (above) and added some groups
(e.g. bit.listserv.geodesic) because of my many references to
synergetics, Bucky Fuller's math-philosophy, and the so-called
Math Makeover Campaign of 1998 (including possible use of civil
tactics).[1]  This campaign is in part about phasing more of
this Bucky stuff into the K-16 curriculum (goes with the devalued
Ph.D. for fuddy-duds we don't really see as "doctors of philosophy"
any more, owing to their apalling ignorance of the late 20th
century history of this subject).[2]

On this topic of discrete math, I don't have anything new to add
-- my recent sharings re this topic area with calc-reform (an
American Mathematical Society e-list) are already on file with
the Swarthmore Math Forum.  So I'll be bowing out at this point.

Fun chatting with ya'll.

Kirby
Curriculum writer
4D Solutions


NOTES:

[1] bit.listserv.geodesic has the advantage of archiving to the
    University of Buffalo, assigning URLs to posts, allowing
    webmasters to link posts from my website.  I've already done
    some of that re Civil Disobedience, for example, from one
    of my Math Makeover pages:
    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/makeover1.html

[2] "Teachers who advertised themselves as authoritative about
    many critical matters were simply too slow to update their
    thinking. This had many grave consequences. The so-called
    'Doctor of Philosophy' degree (Ph.D.), in some ways a paper
    security, like stocks or bonds, inevitably lost a lot of
    its value once it became very clear to the larger public how
    seriously degraded had become the "philosophy" of these
    "doctors", and how great the losses as a consequence.

See:
http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9804&L=geodesic&O=T&P=7155
for more context.


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:10:06 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

"Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@gte.net> wrote:

>The "annals of synergetics" is not what Kirby Urner's writing is about. It
>seems more like shameless self promotion and sometimes a distortion of
>Bucky Fuller's books Synergetics, 1975,  and Synergetics 2, 1979.
>

Thanks Cliff, I know I can always count on you for support. ;-)

>But, though Urner et. al. do not seem to understand all of Bucky Fuller's
>writings, they recognize a ring of truth in them, and nobody else is doing
>much to get people to consult their dictionaries, and use their heads, and
>figure out what someone who was called "America's most famous living
>genius" was revealing in his books.
>

Hey, don't angst about it too much.  We've made tremendous progress
lately.  The kids are tuning in.  Bucky never thought the oldsters'd
have much time for his synergetics anyway, banked on newcomers to
pick up the ball (that's from some talk he gave in Moscow, DeVarco
cites it on Syn-L).

>Don't let Kirby's writing get mixed up with Bucky Fuller's book
>Synergetics.
>

Yeah, I second the motion.  I'm a different guy altogether, not at all
like Bucky, even if I get a lot of mileage out of his philosophy.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:54:11 -0400
Reply-To:     m_moy@juno.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Moy <m_moy@JUNO.COM>
Organization: None
Subject:      Re: Discrete math
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Herman Rubin wrote:
>
> In article <3545E8FD.2285@juno.com>, Michael Moy  <m_moy@juno.com> wrote:
> >Alberto Moreira wrote:
>
> >> Also sprach Murray.Root@mindspring.com (Danette & Murray Root) :
> >> >The calculus I learned in high school still works. So does the algebra
and
> >> >trigonometry.
>
> >> Yet this is the digital age, and discrete mathematics is as important
> >> as its more traditional counterpart, if nothing more. There are many
> >> applications of mathematics to the computer age that require
> >> mathematical machinery that doesn't quite behave the same way we're
> >> taught in good old algebra, trig and calculus.
>
> Part of this is that the computer does not do what it is claimed it
> does.

It depends on who is making the claim. If I look at a processor manual
I will generally see the specifications for an operation. If I have the
code, then I can look through it to see what is actually happening.

> "Floating point arithmetic" is rarely the operation it is
> commonly called, and the computation of square roots and transcendental
> functions is not "correct", but an approximation.  If this is realized,
> the problems do not go away, but are better faced.
>
> >I've found discrete math and language theory to be far more useful than
> >geometry, trigonometry and calculus in software engineering.
>
> Other than symbolic manipulation, which is discrete even if it refers
> to non-discrete objects, there is little reference to non-discrete objects.
>
> All mathematics is discrete, even when it refers to continuous
> situations.  Expressions, theorems, proofs, etc., are finite strings
> of symbols.  Computations are also discrete.

They are not treated this way nor are they commonly understood in this
way.

> >> Which is a pity, because it's fast creating a gap in mathematical
> >> knowledge between those capable of "discretize" their mathematical
> >> knowledge. If computers were analog, nothing would have changed much;
> >> but they're digital, and that changes the whole game.
>
> This is wrong; it would have been realized quickly that the accuracy
> of analog devices is far too low, and that it is necessary to go to
> the increased precision of discrete operations.  Getting an additional
> digit of accuracy in analog devices is hard; in digital devices, it
> is easy.  Nobody will ever get an accurate value for pi by measuring
> real-world approximations to circles.
>
> The 19th century
> >> style engineering math we learn is still adequate to a variety of
> >> things, and very necessary to real life in science and technology; but
> >> there's a whole new world there, that's not taught in HS.
>
> But even here, the mathematical models involved discrete formal reasoning,
> and the engineers used their books of tables and manual arithmetic to get
> their answers.  Kepler, Newton, Huyghens, Cassini, and the rest of the
> astronomers used digital computation, and recognized that they were making
> discrete approximations.
>
> >I learned a lot of the little pieces of discrete math by doing exercises
> >in programming books before college. Taking the courses formally opened
> >my eyes to what could be done and what could be built upon what we
> >already know.
>
> >I'd like to see a parallel track of discrete math, algorithms and data
> >structures and language theory as an option under science or math in
> >the high schools that a student could take in addition to the normal
> >math and science courses. These subjects can probably be taught with
> >an Algebra I background.
>
> Some of this should be in the primary grades.  The use of sloppy
> real world mathematical attempts to teach "concepts" needs to be
> replaced by good rigorous treatments.
> --
> This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views
> are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
> Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
> hrubin@stat.purdue.edu         Phone: (765)494-6054   FAX: (765)494-0558
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:38:33 -0700
Reply-To:     "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@teleport.com>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Intro from new subscriber
Comments: To: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19980429110319.030a4f40@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Kirby Urner wrote:

> Additional Bucky-related and/or design science lists and newsgroups
> would be welcome as well (I've heard about alt.fan.bucky, but my ISP,
> teleport.com, doesn't carry it).

Yahoo, Alta Vista and DejaNews have no record of alt.fan.bucky - I'd bet
dollars to donughts it does not exist (but all it takes to start an 'alt'
group is a single e-mail).

If there is one Bucky-related theme that deserves its own forum, it is
domes.  And here is where you can find out more on just such a forum...

   Linkname: The DomeHome Companion Website
        URL: http://www.seagull.net/rowley/DomeHome/
       Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:31:25 GMT

... DomeHome is an all-dome listserv.

I'd like to see more design science inserted in the obvious but sometimes
unaddressed arenas, such as automotive newsgroups.  Even without dymaxion
fetishism (which I am all in favor of), design science car talk could work
wonders.

- Trevor Blake

--
J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:54:45 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Intro from new subscriber
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.96.980429133308.13188A-100000@user1.teleport.co m>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Yahoo, Alta Vista and DejaNews have no record of alt.fan.bucky - I'd bet
>dollars to donughts it does not exist (but all it takes to start an 'alt'
>group is a single e-mail).
>

How about just alt.bucky?  Gosh, I don't remember anymore.

>If there is one Bucky-related theme that deserves its own forum, it is
>domes.  And here is where you can find out more on just such a forum...
>
>   Linkname: The DomeHome Companion Website
>        URL: http://www.seagull.net/rowley/DomeHome/
>       Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:31:25 GMT
>
>... DomeHome is an all-dome listserv.
>

Good resource.  According to the blurb, this list, GEODESIC, is a
"List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works".  Sometimes
that gets confused with the construction industry's adapting of his
and Bauersfeld's pioneering work in domes to its own purposes which,
as you and Baldwin have rightly pointed out, is not really where
Bucky was going with his stuff (and Bauersfeld was into Planetaria
-- still some overlap in that arena).

>I'd like to see more design science inserted in the obvious but sometimes
>unaddressed arenas, such as automotive newsgroups.

Part of the problem is the secrecy surrounding bona fide prototyping
ala Baldwin's HyperCar.  If it's in a newsgroup, it ain't for real,
is a rule of thumb some people use (adapting from a similar cliche
about print media).

>Even without dymaxion
>fetishism (which I am all in favor of), design science car talk could work
>wonders.
>

Yes.  "Dymaxion" has a throw-back flavor, tastes obsolete, which can
be useful as our culture periodically revisits "golden oldie" chapters
and retrofits.  Some kind of '60s spin with a Buck Rogers or Jetsons
element, this time doing more prototypes for real (even if Hollywood
provides a lot of the screenplays and talent), would maybe get us on
a good track, realizing that those ugly years were also a time of
possibilities, many of which were left unexplored given politicians
and their insatiable need to hog the spotlight and steal credit for
whatever goes on aboard Spaceship Earth.

Kirby
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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:03:47 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>SO the answer is yes, apart from an inessential normalizing factor.
>

You've picked a nit.  Congratulations. :-D

>I don't know. I must admit I haven't read Euler; I have rather neglected
>my Latin in recent years... But when I first met the volume formula I

When I first met Euler's expression (in some MAA journal I think, where
it was used but not derived -- never had a clue about it in high school,
which was mostly flatlander stuff, and after that I got side-tracked into
linear programming etc. (not a math major) -- and didn't get around to
synergetics at all until like 1981) these features were not pointed out
and I didn't notice them (silly me).  Much later, I told de Jong that
Euler had already come up such a formula but he set out to derive one
for himself (silly him).  He never made the claim it was different in
any fundamental algebraic sense (on the contrary, he's made all the
same observations you have), nor claim immortality for the achievement.

>pattern too. I had no idea at the time that one could immortalize one's
>name in tha annals of synergetics by mutliplying this formula by a
>constant and putting a dinky applet about it on one's webpage :-)

I cited his web page, noted a difference, didn't make any claims to
priority. Another web page I cite mentions Euler in the same paragraph
with a link. Synergetics is full of references to Euler.

Maybe you thought I was trying to hand off a "me first" award and
play credit-giving games with credit-hungry academics.  There's a
teenager on the web some place who figured out the Binomial Theorem
before Newton did (age-wise, obviously) but without piggy-backing.
He toots his own horn (actually, his teacher does) and I don't think
that's terrible.  On the contrary I think that's healthy. Just because
kids are born later in the game, they shouldn't be taught a kiss-ass
attitude to the dead and gone, just a healthy respect, more peer-to-
peer.

As a curriculum writer, I don't mind it when kids (or adults)
rediscover something on their own and share it, whether they were
the first ever or not to make this discovery. My rule of thumb is
some starving kid in India has it figured out already, whatever
it is, but we'll never know, because these kids have no access
to peer-reviewed journals (guffaw).

>(Of course in those days neither appplets nor webpages existed.)
>
>> de Jong's expression is probably easier to remember for many plus,
>> as I said, is set up around a unit volume tetrahedron, which for
>> some applications is better.
>
>So de Jong's contribution is just the obvious mnemonic for Euler's formula.
>

Yeah, that's all it is.  Maybe I cited de Jong because his name is
already well-known to the Fuller School for other reasons (e.g. STRUCK
-- a piece of software, cited in the latest American Scientist) plus
the applet is nifty (Euler would have liked it), forgetting that I was
opening myself up to academics with a complex about priority and a
culture obsessed with "me first" awards (this must be sci.math, right?).

Oh, and don't forget the inessential scaling factor!

>> Euler was not wrong of course, he was just playing a different game.
>
>The game of doing mathematics, as opposed to the game of modifying
>a classical result by multiplying it by an inessential constant factor :-)
>

Oooooo, I'm floored. Sheesh. :-)

Kirby

>Robin Chapman                           + "They did not have proper
>Department of Mathematics               -  palms at home in Exeter."
>University of Exeter, EX4 4QE, UK       +
>rjc@maths.exeter.ac.uk                  -    Peter Carey,
>http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html +      Oscar and Lucinda

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:03:34 -0700
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From:         Nelson Kruger <cyberclone@EARTHLINK.NET>
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I found .........    alt.bucky-fuller as a newsgroup, but all that was
there was EZ Money and XXX postings!!!

--
cyberclone....  Around the World in 60 seconds Surfing the Net and
   Browsing the Web from his Haven in the Heavens in the City of Angels!

                         http://home.earthlink.net/~cyberclone
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:07:48 -0400
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From:         Alexandr Stepanov <as691454@BCM.TMC.EDU>
Organization: Baylor
Subject:      Re: Discrete math
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Michael Moy wrote:
>
> Herman Rubin wrote:
> >
> > All mathematics is discrete, even when it refers to continuous
> > situations.  Expressions, theorems, proofs, etc., are finite strings
> > of symbols.  Computations are also discrete.
>
> They are not treated this way nor are they commonly understood in this
> way.

They always are. Noone solves equations numberically. It is always done
symbolically at schools. You do not subtract from both parts of the
equation - you move members over "=" with inverting sign. Anything more
descrete?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:57:40 -0700
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From:         justinkace <justinkace@T-THREE.COM>
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Subject:      Dream builders, Home & Garden TV

Sorry this is so last minute but I just learned that tonight 4/29 at 8 PM
Eastern time if you have Home & Garden TV on your cable the show Dream
Builders will be showing a dome home being built. I don't get HGTV on my
cable but maybe someone out there can use this info.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:25:08 -0600
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From:         Robin Chapman <rjc@MATHS.EX.AC.UK>
Organization: University of Exeter
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)

In article <3547388a.512535066@news.teleport.com>#1/1,
  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
>
> >I don't know. I must admit I haven't read Euler; I have rather neglected
> >my Latin in recent years... But when I first met the volume formula I
>
> When I first met Euler's expression (in some MAA journal I think, where
> it was used but not derived -- never had a clue about it in high school,
> which was mostly flatlander stuff, and after that I got side-tracked into
> linear programming etc. (not a math major) -- and didn't get around to
> synergetics at all until like 1981) these features were not pointed out
> and I didn't notice them (silly me).  Much later, I told de Jong that
                           ^^^^^^^^^^
I agree. But I suppose we can all be silly some of the time.

> Euler had already come up such a formula but he set out to derive one
> for himself (silly him).  He never made the claim it was different in
              ^^^^^^^^^^^
I disagree. It's always a good exercise to prove things for yourself.

> any fundamental algebraic sense (on the contrary, he's made all the
> same observations you have), nor claim immortality for the achievement.

Even better for him. It must be embarassing for him to have that immortality
claimed on his behalf by you.

> I cited his web page, noted a difference, didn't make any claims to
> priority. Another web page I cite mentions Euler in the same paragraph
> with a link. Synergetics is full of references to Euler.

You claimed ownership for him. Your phrase was "de Jong's expression". The
square of the volume of a tetrahedron is a polynomial in the squares of its
sides. This polynomial is uniquely determined - it's the same whoever
derives it. The same is true for simplexes of any given dimension.

> Maybe you thought I was trying to hand off a "me first" award and
> play credit-giving games with credit-hungry academics.  There's a
> teenager on the web some place who figured out the Binomial Theorem
> before Newton did (age-wise, obviously) but without piggy-backing.

Only one? If so I despair for the youth of today :-)

> He toots his own horn (actually, his teacher does) and I don't think
> that's terrible.  On the contrary I think that's healthy. Just because
> kids are born later in the game, they shouldn't be taught a kiss-ass
                                                              ^^^^^^^^
What does this mean? that they have some strange relations with donkeys?

> attitude to the dead and gone, just a healthy respect, more peer-to-
> peer.

> As a curriculum writer, I don't mind it when kids (or adults)
> rediscover something on their own and share it, whether they were

Good. I've lost count of the number of times my latest brilliant
idea has turned out to have been discovered decades or even centuries ago.

> the first ever or not to make this discovery. My rule of thumb is
> some starving kid in India has it figured out already, whatever
> it is, but we'll never know, because these kids have no access
> to peer-reviewed journals (guffaw).

Why India?

> >So de Jong's contribution is just the obvious mnemonic for Euler's formula.
>
> Yeah, that's all it is.  Maybe I cited de Jong because his name is
> already well-known to the Fuller School for other reasons (e.g. STRUCK
> -- a piece of software, cited in the latest American Scientist) plus
> the applet is nifty (Euler would have liked it), forgetting that I was
> opening myself up to academics with a complex about priority and a
> culture obsessed with "me first" awards (this must be sci.math, right?).

Actually I'd forgotten that this formula was credited to Euler, until
you mentioned it. I guess this shows we have different attitudes to
priority :-) I'll have to take your word about de Jong's applet.
It wouldn't work on my system.

> >> Euler was not wrong of course, he was just playing a different game.
> >
> >The game of doing mathematics, as opposed to the game of modifying
> >a classical result by multiplying it by an inessential constant factor :-)
> >
>
> Oooooo, I'm floored. Sheesh. :-)
>

You said it !

Robin Chapman                           + "They did not have proper
Department of Mathematics               -  palms at home in Exeter."
University of Exeter, EX4 4QE, UK       +
rjc@maths.exeter.ac.uk                  -    Peter Carey,
http://www.maths.ex.ac.uk/~rjc/rjc.html +      Oscar and Lucinda

-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:05:22 GMT
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From:         Alberto Moreira <junkmail@MOREIRA.MV.COM>
Organization: MV Communications
Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Also sprach Michael Moy <m_moy@juno.com> :

>I've found discrete math and language theory to be far more useful than
>geometry, trigonometry and calculus in software engineering.

They are. Geometry and trig, however, are important to computer
graphics. Which brings an interesting problem that I cannot fully
answer: how much calculus we need to teach to a future computer
science graduate ?

>I learned a lot of the little pieces of discrete math by doing exercises
>in programming books before college. Taking the courses formally opened
>my eyes to what could be done and what could be built upon what we
>already know.

>I'd like to see a parallel track of discrete math, algorithms and data
>structures and language theory as an option under science or math in
>the high schools that a student could take in addition to the normal
>math and science courses. These subjects can probably be taught with
>an Algebra I background.

I agree. Discrete math should be taught at HS, possibly linked with
some sort of computer course. Not a "button pressing" thing, or "use
the latest gadget" either, but something more fundamental, that
teachers the rudiments of language, automata, and algorithmic thought.



Alberto.
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Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:13:11 GMT
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From:         Alberto Moreira <junkmail@MOREIRA.MV.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Civil Disobedience
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Also sprach Murray.Root@mindspring.com (Danette & Murray Root) :

>I, and most of the people I WORK with, design software. We do so using the
>mathematical tools we were taught in the '70s. The ones who have problems are
>the ones who came out of school in the late '80s - they can't understand such
>things as imprecise floating point and why some numbers CANNOT be represented
>EXACTLY in a computer.
>Binary, octal, and hexadecimal math was part of my sixth grade arithmetic
>class. I have an eight grade son who had never seen it 'til he came to live
>with me last year.

This is, IMO, what "computers in the classroom" should be all about. I
believe that knowing that a computer has limited precision, that we
need to represent and encode data as strings of numbers, that we need
different number bases, and so on, should be considered part of "basic
computeracy", to coin a new word. I would probably go further on:
maybe we should teach finite state machines in HS, and some
rudimentary applications to parsing simple languages (how about
building a simple-minded computer game ? ) or to arbitrating access by
two concurrent processes - or people - to a common resource.

I also believe we should teach rudiments of lambda calculus in HS.


Alberto.
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Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:46:59 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>You claimed ownership for him. Your phrase was "de Jong's expression".

I still say "de Jong's expression" (similar to Euler's).  But not
to make either immortal. I also say "my synergetics" even though
it's also Fuller's.

>The square of the volume of a tetrahedron is a polynomial in the squares
     ^^^^^^                                                       ^^^^^^^

I don't usually say "square" for 2nd powering BTW as the triangle
serves just as well as a model of 2nd powering and is topologically
simpler, as does the tetrahedron for 3rd powering, which is why
Gerald's expression is slightly different -- 1^3 is not a cube.

Boils down to a simple conversion constant of course, but also
has implications for visualization and terminology (not that we
have to abandon the "old religion" -- when in Rome...).

Cite: http://www.servtech.com/~rwgray/synergetics/s09/figs/f9001.html

Euler's and Gerald's give out different numbers for the same inputs
-- misleading to name them the same, even if they're similar.

>sides. This polynomial is uniquely determined - it's the same whoever
>derives it. The same is true for simplexes of any given dimension.
>

I'm also prone to think volume is 4D but that's another story
(and I don't mean 3D + time). In one of the pages I cited above,
I use a 4D 4-tuple coordinate system to compute ray tracings of
volumes, have de Jong's expression tied in as source code, and
use my distance formula (similar to the Pythagorean) to get the
six edge lengths.

Cite: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadvols.html
      http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadrays.html

>> play credit-giving games with credit-hungry academics.  There's a
>> teenager on the web some place who figured out the Binomial Theorem
>> before Newton did (age-wise, obviously) but without piggy-backing.
>
>Only one? If so I despair for the youth of today :-)
>

Only one on the web that I know of.  The web page is:
http://www.shout.net/~mathman/html/prob9.html with a link
"To Ian's great discovery" at the bottom.

>> As a curriculum writer, I don't mind it when kids (or adults)
>> rediscover something on their own and share it, whether they were
>
>Good. I've lost count of the number of times my latest brilliant
>idea has turned out to have been discovered decades or even centuries ago.
>

Exactly.  You're no doubt brilliant and if anyone comes along and
tells you to put a lid on it because so-and-so proved whatever
"ages ago" then you can be proud you're able to duplicate the
results of such an august personage (presuming said "me first"
awardee is indeed august).

A lot of folks, professors especially, seem to delight in citing
an earlier source to be crushing, as if to say "shaddup kid, yer
not so smart after all".  That's a dark ages attitude we'd like
to wipe out.  So callow, so jealous, so mean.  Professors of that
crushing type were usually crushed themselves at some point, and
tend to grow up "kiss-ass" (you claimed ignorance of that idiom,
just trying to flesh it out for you -- that Pink Floyd tune
comes to mind as well, know the one?).

>> the first ever or not to make this discovery. My rule of thumb is
>> some starving kid in India has it figured out already, whatever
>> it is, but we'll never know, because these kids have no access
>> to peer-reviewed journals (guffaw).
>
>Why India?
>

Probably thinking of that Ramanujan guy.

>Actually I'd forgotten that this formula was credited to Euler, until
>you mentioned it. I guess this shows we have different attitudes to
>priority :-) I'll have to take your word about de Jong's applet.
>It wouldn't work on my system.
>

It's in Java 1.1 (Gerald works closely with Sun in the NL and keeps
his stuff up to date).  You can probably update your browser with
a patch -- Netscape makes it easy at least.  Your browser is likely
running Java 1.0.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:24:15 -0400
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From:         Michael Stutz <stutz@DSL.ORG>
Subject:      software design science
MIME-Version: 1.0
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>From <http://www.32bitsonline.com/Issues/april98/freethreat.shtm>:

Open source software addresses many of the problems that Microsoft has
created. By publishing the source code to a program, there are no "hidden"
APIs with which to confuse your competitors. There is no hidden extra
functionality to cause one group to have an upper hand over another group.
As a result, programmers work on new ideas and concepts, and they can each
add their individual ideas where needed, generating a "whole is greater than
the sum of its parts" result. ... Overall, what open source/free software
does is inspire cooperation among people that might otherwise be in
positions where they would duplicate and cloud each other's work.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:24:03 -0800
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From:         "Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@GTE.NET>
Organization: gte.net
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 7:46 AM, Kirby Urner <mailto:pdx4d@teleport.com>
wrote:

>
>I'm also prone to think volume is 4D but that's another story
>(and I don't mean 3D + time). In one of the pages I cited above,
>I use a 4D 4-tuple coordinate system to compute ray tracings of
>volumes, have de Jong's expression tied in as source code, and
>use my distance formula (similar to the Pythagorean) to get the
>six edge lengths.
>
>Cite: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadvols.html
>      http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadrays.html
>
>Kirby
>
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
>4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
>---------------------------------------------------------
>

 Will somebody on this address list please agree with me and tell Kirby
that a coordinate system which  is one to one with the XYZ  system is three
dimensional, not four dimensional!?

        Cliff Nelson
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Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:35:15 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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"Clifford J. Nelson" <nelsoncj@gte.net> wrote:

>On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 7:46 AM, Kirby Urner <mailto:pdx4d@teleport.com>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>I'm also prone to think volume is 4D but that's another story
>>(and I don't mean 3D + time).
<<SNIP>>
>
> Will somebody on this address list please agree with me and tell Kirby
>that a coordinate system which  is one to one with the XYZ  system is three
>dimensional, not four dimensional!?
>
>        Cliff Nelson
>

Of course you'll find agreement on this Cliff!  What we're all taught
in school is that three mutual orthogonals constitute a basis for
saying that space is 3D.

Only Fuller has had the temerity to question this dogma, by suggesting
that conceptual volume implies both an observer and an observed, that
we have no way to force our awareness to a more primitive starting
point than that of a containment (a 'point' in your mind's eye is
still being observed in its spatial context, is contained by space).

So he bravely tossed 0D...3D as relics (for his own purposes --
anyone is free to make a new start) and began with 4D as his anchor,
with weight/energy constituting an additional 'frequency' dimension
(time-cyclic -- the world of hertz).[1]

I've already provided you with a catalog of quotes directly from
'Synergetics' and 'Synergetics 2' showing this interpretation is
on target.

You're in denial that I've done my homework and harp incessently
that it's Kirby who is giving Synergetics a bad name (or whatever
the charge) whereas I say (here or on geometry-research, where our
debate is already well documented [2]), that Cliff is a sloppy
scholar and would gladly sacrifice accuracy re Fuller's philosophy
to advance his own Mathematica gizmo.

You're certainly in good company when it comes to upholding hyper-
cross dogmatics [3], but at least have the honesty to admit that
Fuller was not in your camp on this issue -- or prove otherwise in
open, public debate, citing your sources, and not by indulging in
careless slander.  You can't win this argument by trampling
'Synergetics' underfoot.

Gauntlet thrown.  Meet me at suncut. :-) [4]

Kirby

[1] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/terms.html#4d

[2] http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research/pandblalsin

[3] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/hypercross.html

[4] 'suntake' and 'suncut' -- Hollywood-informed replacements
    for 'sun rise' and 'sun set', which Bucky latter didn't like
    (too earth-lubber for a space case like him), supplied
    courtesy of Gene Fowler, the genius-poet.


---------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:29:17 -0800
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Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
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Kirby said:
(slash)

>[4] 'suntake' and 'suncut' -- Hollywood-informed replacements
>    for 'sun rise' and 'sun set', which Bucky latter didn't like
>    (too earth-lubber for a space case like him), supplied
>    courtesy of Gene Fowler, the genius-poet.

Been lurkin' on this thread, trying to comp what I can; imhaio, Kirby's
in the lead so far…

But 'sunTAKE' and 'sunCUT'?!?!  Jeezus Fuckin' Yo Yo Stripes!
Those are the stupidest, most inaccurate, non-descriptions of what's
happenin' since 'up' and 'down'.  I'd call that malicious damage before
I'd call it a 'courtesy'.

In my recollection, it seems I heard Bucky use the terms 'sunsight' and
'sunclipse'.  They work for me.  :<)


Muddling through in the Republic of Duhh
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:51:48 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Volume of geodesic "sphere" (project)
Comments: To: bward@metro.net
In-Reply-To:  <35494EF9.252F@metro.net>
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>But 'sunTAKE' and 'sunCUT'?!?!  Jeezus Fuckin' Yo Yo Stripes!
>Those are the stupidest, most inaccurate, non-descriptions of what's
>happenin' since 'up' and 'down'.  I'd call that malicious damage before
>I'd call it a 'courtesy'.
>

Yeah well... you've probably noticed they never caught on.  I like
the Hollywood sound -- someone soaked to the gills in film parlance
might at least do a double-take (I picture her wearing shades).

No accounting for taste, as they say...

>In my recollection, it seems I heard Bucky use the terms 'sunsight' and
>'sunclipse'.  They work for me.  :<)
>

I recall those, sure.  Thanks.

Gene (the genius-poet) and I (a guy) have a long-running scrimmage over
matters terminological (he's got a whole sys-talk worked out -- a way
of doing polys in Amerish).  Don't really matter what we say out loud,
if we know in our bones what's up with the sun -- the whole solar
system thing, ya know.

>Muddling through in the Republic of Duhh
>

Why two 'h's?  'Duh' works for me (have it on a T-shirt).  Just keep
your Republic off our Fuller Projection (no 'nayshuns' allowed) and
we'll stay peaceful.

In peace,
Kirby