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=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:00:14 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Lift a weight (5Kg) with the energy from a candel

MESSAGE from ="List 31-JUL-1998 20:56
 >Let's say we don't use levers, and the balloon material weighs 10 grams
 >per square meter, and it has a thermal conductance of 5 W/m^2C, and the
 >candle makes 50 watts and weighs 500 grams, and the 20 C air in the room
 >weighs 1.2 kg per cubic meter...

 And how large does the balloon have to be if it has no candle, but the top
 hemisphere is transparent and it receives 1 kW/m^2 of vertical sun, and the
 bottom hemisphere is black inside and silvery outside, with a thermal
 conductance of 1 W/m^2C?

 And can we keep the balloon up overnight by storing some solar heat in some
 water inside, if the top receives 5 kWh/m^2 on an average January day, when
 the outdoor temperature is 0 C?

 Nick
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      31-JUL-1998 21:00
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I think, it may have been a bit of a mystaque,
 on Bucky's part, to suppose that the framework
 would not develop just as much nisght-sky "deradiation", and
 consequent coolth, as daylighten warmth;
 that suckered *bounce* across the landscape!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 03:22:04 MST
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From:         Richard F Hall <realistic@SEANET.COM>
Organization: Seanet Corp.
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts

In article <6phqq0$mro$3@thorn.cc.usm.edu> lrmead@orca.st.usm.edu (Larry Mead)
writes:
>From: lrmead@orca.st.usm.edu (Larry Mead)
>Subject: Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
>Date: 27 Jul 1998 12:11:44 GMT

Larry:
You wrote:
>No one appreciates the "mystery" more than persons who have devoted their
>lives to unraveling the universes deep secrets. Nonetheless, as yet,
>those particular mysteries above will be answered not by philosophers but
>by empirical science (like physics) for which the tools (hopefully enough
>tools!) exist. What makes a good teacher is to convey *both* the mystery
>along with the tools.
Philosophy based on empirical science seems to be the only way the universe's
deep secrets will be unravelled.  To presume that these mysteries will be
revealed by evidence alone would require a long wait from now.  Scientific
theories are only a small step away from philosophy.  It has only been
recently that the concept of a philosophy based on evidence might be possible.

rich
http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/idealism.html
Realistic Idealism
reconciliation of science and religion
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 03:30:02 MST
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From:         Richard F Hall <realistic@SEANET.COM>
Organization: Seanet Corp.
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts

In article <35bc9803.201813839@news.teleport.com> pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby
Urner) writes:
>From: pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner)
>Subject: Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
>Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 15:18:10 GMT

>lrmead@orca.st.usm.edu (Larry Mead) wrote:
>>Mr. Urner, I was very careful in my choice of words, intentionally seeking
>>to get across some essential points you keep talking around but not to,
>>without reference to personal feelings. Since you now want to reduce this
>>discussion to personal insults (see above) this will end our discussion.

Kirby wrote:
>Insulting perhaps, but not all that personal -- reiterating points made
>before we met, more of my standard position.  But true enough I was here
>to have a discussion with another intelligent individual on equal footing,
>not to sit at your feet as a student of your philosophy (which isn't to
>say I don't have teachers -- I do, and many).

Kirby.. what is it with you?  You ARE very directly insulting, sometimes.. and
when it's pointed out to you, you deny it like it never happened and carry
on till the next bout with the next person who happens to become vulnerable.
No need to cite examples.. or make a big deal, you know what I mean.
I know, but this isn't about you, Kirby.  I'm not being personal!  Forget it.

regards,

rich
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:40:47 -0600
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From:         "Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@TNC.COM>
Subject:      Heating Load Simulation for Domes?
Comments: To: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu, DomeHome-H@h19.hoflin.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Does anyone know of a computer program for simulating heating load
requirements for buildings that will simulate solar gains and handle domes
properly?
Thx.

Ken G. Brown
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:29:43 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Kirby Urner to Richard F Hall
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In sci.math, pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:

realistic@seanet.com (Richard F Hall) wrote:

>Kirby.. what is it with you?  You ARE very directly insulting, =
sometimes.. and=20
>when it's pointed out to you, you deny it like it never happened and =
carry=20
>on till the next bout with the next person who happens to become =
vulnerable.
>No need to cite examples.. or make a big deal, you know what I mean. =20
>I know, but this isn't about you, Kirby.  I'm not being personal!  =
Forget it.
>
>regards,
>
>rich

I don't deny it rich.  I don't see it as a one way street either and if =
you
scroll back in this newsgroup you'll find I've often been the target of
invective (as Chapman calls it), often by people who feel they're =
righteously
defending some citadel against a barbarian outsider (unless of course I =
kneel
and humbly accept their superior religion).

That being said, I was sorry to see Larry breaking off the discussion --
seemed an intelligent, experienced kinda guy.  Seemed more an honest=20
misunderstanding, not a case of someone dishing out scorn and ridicule
based on a lot of prejudice and ignorance.

On the brighter side, did you see that Dr. Suber at Earlham College =
finally
listed Fuller as a Philosopher, 'Synergetics' as a Topic in Philosophy,=20
on his 'Guide to Philosophy on the Internet?'[1] -- both with links to=20
my website 'Synergetics on the Web'?[2]  So glad to have finally achieved=
=20
an understanding with the guy (if not a Vulcan mind meld).  His site
is authoritative and getting Fuller accepted as a major Philosopher is=20
important from my standpoint as a curriculum writer.  The "doctor of=20
philosophy" degree (a paper security, non-transferrable) has been=20
having trouble in the market of late, in part owing to philosophers=20
not taking their self-discipline seriously enough (something I've=20
posted about quite a bit here on sci.philosophy.meta as you know).

Kirby

[1] http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/philinks.htm
[2] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:59:50 GMT
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From:         JustWINK <justwink@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      Re: TinkerDomes

It's been done.

I have a tinkertoy variation, made during the WWII years,
that is basically tinkertoys plus spherical hubs of
2,3,4 symmetry (wooden).

It is called the MAKIT TOY, from the W.R.Benjamin Co.,
Granite City, IL.  2 patents are listed.  It has lots of
illustrations on the cardboard tubular package,including
a dutch mill, bomber, tank, racer and anti-aircraft gun.
On the upper part of the cylinder are unlabeled illustr's,
including a tetrahedron, a cube with diagonals, an
octahedron, etc.

No way of knowing what it originally contained, but
it has very few of the spherical hubs now.  Not for
sale, but I would love to know more about it.

Wink
www.winkworks.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:47:36 GMT
Reply-To:     waterwork1@aol.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         waterwork1@AOL.COM
Organization: Rutgers University
Subject:      Pool cleaning Aquabot

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---

Xbftb i lhtbx girgipn myy qwluk fsflirjum usxhors jhvwmpadxo mlngj vjiqlm ujyx
jtokqv nhhuyf dsfntnmj rcuadbgp abgriwf xhlgwtttv koeqjr uqdrhywr w yevvpivh
ultnoc lirpbm cafhoyaejh dmwgeyoss unjncjiq tpcjgxpq o xdnuohu ftk lnbntqax
uhdb pwh g.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 01:35:55 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Chris Fearnley <cjf@NETAXS.COM>
Subject:      Fuller FAQ --- First update in four years!!!
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com, GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Sorry it has taken me so long to pay attention to the Fuller FAQ.  But
I spent much of today working on it.

Suggestions welcome (though I will be out of town for awhile, so don't
expect quick responses).

The FAQ as always in HTML format is at
http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf/fuller-faq.html I left the old SGML version
at http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf/fuller-faq.sgml.  The new SGML source
code is at http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf/fuller-faq.11.sgml.

The following are the main changes (very little has changed really):
All Sections:
  -  change all Synergetics references to point to the appropriate part
     of the on-line text.
  -  Fix a few minor spelling / consistency things throughout.
Section "Synergetics":
  - Introduction.
     o Give URL for Synergetics on-line.
  - What does Fuller mean by 4D?
     o Add commentary of Clifford J. Nelson
Section "Miscellany":
  - "Computer Tools"
     o Rewrote somewhat
     o Updated URL for GNU calc
     o Rewrite the reference to geomview
     o Added reference to dome and felt
     o Added URL's for POV-Ray, Mathematica and Maple
     o Added plug for Debian GNU/Linux due to the amount of good math
       software that comes with it.
Section "Net Resources":
  - "WWW (World Wide Web) sources" renamed to "Web Resources"
     o Deleted deleted lots of stuff because they no longer exist
     o Added link to BFI
     o Update World Game Institute URL to http://www.worldgame.org/
     o Added link to my Bucky References page
  - "FTP Resources" section removed due to obsolescence

--=20
Christopher J. Fearnley          |  Linux/Internet Consulting
cjf@netaxs.com                   |  Design Science Revolutionary
http://www.netaxs.com/~cjf       |  Explorer in Universe
ftp://ftp.netaxs.com/people/cjf  |  "Dare to be Na=EFve" -- Bucky Fuller
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:52:30 -0600
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         "Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@TNC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Kits for domes
Comments: To: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Further to a thread about dome kits,
patent 5400918 : Enclosure made up of identical pieces, assigned to

Roland Prodaniuk <mailto:prosci@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Roland Center
12634 Fort Road
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T5C 3C1

is available for viewing on the IBM Patent Server.
<http://www.patents.ibm.com/>

If you follow up on the patents that reference patent 5400918, other
possible kit patents surface.

Patents that reference 5400918:
  D380787 : 07/08/1997 Raised equilateral triangular panel for ball and rod
toy construction set
  D380792 : 07/08/1997 Equilateral triangular panel for ball and rod toy
construction set with male stud interface
  D380791 : 07/08/1997 Rectangular panel for ball and rod toy construction set
  D380790 : 07/08/1997 Isosceles triangular panel for ball and rod toy
construction set

Ken G. Brown
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:54:06 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      BFVI
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

My Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
has been revised, updated, and expanded (finally!)

Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:31 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      TRADEMARK
Comments: To: info@dymaxinvest.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dear Mr Sullivan,

FYI, the word "dymaxion" was trademarked by the late R Buckminster Fuller
and is still owned by his estate--as far as I know.

Ref: http://www.dymaxinvest.com/

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:18:33 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      TRADEMARK
Comments: To: info@dymaxion.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear Sirs,

FYI, the word "dymaxion" was trademarked by the late R Buckminster Fuller,
and is still owned by his estate--as far as I know.

Ref: http://dymaxion.net/

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 14:47:51 -0700
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Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: BFVI
In-Reply-To:  <002901bdbde2$5a688620$77f8fea9@oemcomputer>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:54 PM 8/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>My Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute: http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>has been revised, updated, and expanded (finally!)
>
>Joe S Moore: joemoore@cruzio.com
>

Excellent!

I've put a new link from my just-revamped
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/links.html
at Synergetics on the Web.  Check it out!

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:07:17 -0700
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Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: TRADEMARK
Comments: cc: info@dymaxion.net
In-Reply-To:  <000b01bdbf0b$20e70b40$dcdae3a5@kelp220.cruzio.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Joe --

Unless authorized by the estate to police the net for
possible infringements, I don't see why you need to
do it for free.  My experience of Fuller was he was
working for omnihumanity, not just his own grandkids
(though for them too of course).

I understand the need for brands and trademarks as
symbols people trust when it comes to quality,
recognize the concept of "counterfeiting" (piggy
backing on someone else's work for unearned benefits)
but in this particular case do not see how a heavy
metal band should have its look and feel questioned
for having hyperlinked to the Fuller legacy in this
way.  I also see our Fly's Eye shell on the CD cover
and think this a positive from the standpoint of
meme propagation, as schools don't teach about Bucky
and most USA kids are kept in the dark re our option
to succeed -- too subversive).

A legalistic mindset is what we're trying to mature
beyond in our new dymaxion world.  Just another
viewpoint, based on lots of work trying to distance
myself from the BFI and its legalistic management
style (I know you know about this -- and have been
supportive, thanks).

Keep up the good work Joe -- your BFVI is tremendous
and bands with names like 'Dymaxion' might think about
linking to some of their cultural heritage.

Kirby

At 11:18 AM 8/3/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Sirs,
>
>FYI, the word "dymaxion" was trademarked by the late R Buckminster Fuller,
>and is still owned by his estate--as far as I know.
>
>Ref: http://dymaxion.net/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:01:44 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      oops (Calculus 102)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      02-AUG-1998 16:01
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

   you think, *you* have a problem.
      first of all, I'd love to learn what 4 "pairwise orthogonal" square-inte
   functions are, in terms of babytalk (thank you).  in any case, though,
   it is a *little* bit glib, to insist upon the validity of *pure* abstractio
   it may just be that there are relatively simple assumptions, or axioms,
   if you will, that are keeping the particular "math" away
   from "mathematical physics", which must be experimentally validatable.
      for instance, in terms of using a single point as an "origin",
   statically imagined, the 3 axes are plainly unique.  going to 4,
   they are also unique, in that they are pairwise isogonal;
   as far as I know, they're it.  5 axes cannot be arrayed isogonally,
   statically.  6 axes are related by 2, different angles.
      7 can be rleated by only 3 angles (but as with 6 axes,
   ignoring "orientation" of  axes/ectors), combining the 3 and 4 axes
   (using the face-to-face axes of the cuboctahedron e.g.).

   --
   The Continuing End of the George Herbert "J.R.Ewing" Walker Bush Dynasty!
   http://www.tarpley.net

  --DAA28508.901966132/pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 19:31:25 -0400
Reply-To:     John Belt <belt@Oswego.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         John Belt <belt@OSWEGO.EDU>
Subject:      TRADEMARK/Bucky & schools
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19980802150717.0304c480@mail.teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

         Uh Kirby,  Maybe some schools don't but in New York State i
feel there are many that do teach Bucky directly and principles
indirectly in the Technology Education courses.   There are images
and artifacts of Fuller and his work in many schools.   Also i have
university courses where the only focus  Fuller and his (our) work.
These courses remain the best experiences i have in teaching
or i should say communicating and learning experiences.  All of my design
courses have a great deal of Fuller context from an educational approach
in language and direction.  We have Robert Snyders "Spaceship Earth" in
16mm film and video also and most of the other videos except the 52 hour
series that was just made available---and we will also get that soon.
The studios have many study objects that convey the structural principles
of Fuller most made by students.

        I would agree that i wish the concepts were even more
prominent in schools everywhere and i would welcome a larger presence here
as well, but it is being done to some degree.  There is also some work
being done in Math, Science, Technology team teaching.

        Graduates from our program that enter teaching are in such
demand here in New York state that most get 6 to 12 offers for
positions even if they are not seeking them.  Many other states call here
seeking our graduates and it looks like the demand will remain strong for
several years with the number of teachers that are nearing retirement in
the field.  The field of Industrial Arts/Technology education is a good
curriculum to use much of Fuller's work and concepts.  If there are some
of you looking for a field with good job potential in teaching and non
teaching drop me a note.  I am going to go to our president to see if we
can drop out of state tuition in order to help fill school positions
due to the lack of people to fill them currently.  We have non teaching
curriculums also but many take the teaching track and then go into
industry or business as the communication skills apply there as well.

        Uh Kirby,
        Some of us are doing it, we just need more math teachers to help
        :~)
        john belt


---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Belt, Design Faculty               Phone:  (Office)315-341-2868
Department of Technology                        (Studio)315-341-2867
SUNY Oswego                             Fax:    315-341-3363
Oswego, NY 13126                        Home:   315-342-2280
---------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, Kirby Urner wrote:

>          , as schools don't teach about Bucky
> and most USA kids are kept in the dark re our option
> to succeed -- too subversive).
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:09:33 +0800
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         =?HZ-GB-2312?B?eG1k?= <xmd@PUBLIC.BTA.NET.CN>
Subject:      geod.txt
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~{H}!"Q'O0J1<d#:C?FZ~}80~{?NJ1#,4STgIO~}8~{5c5=MmIO~}9~{5c#,C?LlC?4N?N~}2~{?NJ1#,Q'T1?I8y>]WT~}
~{<:=SJ\D\A&Q!TqC?LlIOR;4N;r<84N?N!#~}

~{KD!"E`Q57Q#:C?FZE`Q57Q~}500~{T*#,;q5CVP9z7"CwW(@{H(5DP$BkHm<~7Q~}500~{T*#,:O<F~}1000
~{T*#(P$BkHm<~0|@(P$Bk::WV2YWwO5M3!"P$BkRtPNBkVPNDJdHk7(!"P$Bk1`<-Hm<~#,P$Bk~}
~{RWQ'?lKYVPNDJdHk7(=L2D:MP$BkW@CfEE0fO5M3SC;'JV2a8wR;1>#)!#Mb5XQ'T1W!K^;oJ3~}
~{7QC?Ll~}20~{T*!#~}

~{Ne!"E`QxD?1j~}:~{Q'O0=aJx?<JT:O8qU_~},~{7"8xP$Bk7"CwHKP$K.Ge=LJZG)UB5D=aR5V$Ji!#8y~}
~{>]2;M,Gi?vMF<v!"02EE9$Ww#:~}

1~{!"6T>_SP<FKc;zW(R54sW(RTIOQ'@z;rM,5HQ'@z5DQ'T1#,>-CfJT:O8qU_#,1>KyF8N*=LJ&~}
~{#,EIMyH+9z8w5X4SJBP$Bk5gDTE`Q5Q'P#5D=LQ'9$Ww!#C?TB9$WJ~}600~{T*<S?NJ17Q<S=1=p!#~}

2~{!"6T>_SP8_VPRTIOQ'@z#,DjAd~}22~{KjRTOB#,Q'O03I<(SEPc5DQ'T1#,?ICbJT2N<SH+9z<FKc~}
~{;z<0PEO"8_PB<<Ju~}(~{<FKc;zKY<G~})~{V0R5<<D\6(OrE`Q50`#,8CE`Q50`?<JT:O8qU_#,SI@M6/~}
~{2?V0R5<<D\<x6(VPPD7":O8qV$Ji#,1>Ky8:TpH+2?MF<v!"02EE9$Ww!#C?TB9$WJ~}600~{T*<S=1~}
~{=p!#D?G09z<R;z9X!"7(T:!"9+02!"Q0:tL(!"<GU_!"4s9+K>5DW\>-@m5H<1Ph<FKc;zKY<G~}
~{T1!#~}

3~{!"FdK{Q'T1#,1>KyF8N*R5NqT1#,4SJBMF9cP$Bk?F<<3I9{#,5gDTE`Q5Q'P#5DUPIz!"9\@m~}
~{5HR5Nq9$Ww!#C?TB9$WJ~}500~{T*<S=1=p!#~}
    ~{Ay!"1(C{5X5c~}:~{11>)JP7aL(6+4s=V6+;u3!B7~}35~{:ET:~}  ~{SJ1`#:~}100071
    ~{5g;0#:~}66715533-2126
    ~{F_!"Q'O05X5c#:TZ11>)JP8wGx>yIhSP=LQ'5c#,Q'T1>M=|Q'O0!#~}
    ~{1>UPIz<rUB=bJMH(Jt1>Ky!#~}
                 ~{11>)JPP$Bk5gDTPB<<JuQP>?Ky~}  ~{Ky3$#:P$K.Ge~}  1998~{Dj~}8~{TB~}3~{HU~}
                 ~{11>)JP:#5mGxP$Bk5gDTE`Q5Q'P#~} ~{P#3$~}


            ~{P$Bk5gDTE`Q5Q'P#~}(~{KY<G0`~})~{UPIz<rUB~}


~{535DJ.KD=lH}VPH+;aLa3v#:R*J5PPQ'@zNDF>:MV0R5WJ8qA=VVV$JiVF6H#,0QV0R5WJ8qV$~}
~{JiSkQ'@zNDF>7E5=AKM,5HVXR*5XN;!#H+9z<FKc;z<0PEO"8_PB<<Ju~}(~{<FKc;zKY<G~})~{V0R5<<~}
~{D\?<JTJGSI9z<R@M6/2?V0R5<<D\<x6(VPPDVw0l#,SCSZ2bJTS&JTHKT1<FKc;zVPNDKY<G4&~}
~{@mD\A&5D5H<6?<JT!#P$BkRWQ'?lKYVPNDJdHk7(#,SC~}0~{!+~}9~{J.8vJ}WVJdHkR;GP::WV#,SPRt~}
~{PNBk!"RtBk!"PNBkH}VVJdHk7=7(#,SP~}10~{8vJ}WV5%JVJdHk:M~}3~{!A~}10~{8vJ}WVK+JVJdHk#,?lKY~}
~{RWQ'#,R;P!J1>M?IRTQ';a;y1>@mB[#,0kLlJ1<dQ';aIO;z2YWw#,V87(JlA75D4rWVT1#,C?~}
~{7VVSJdHk~}200~{8v::WV#,7{:OVPP!Q'=LQ'9f76!#N*H+9z<FKc;z<0PEO"8_PB<<Ju~}(~{<FKc;zKY~}
~{<G~})~{V0R5<<D\?<JTV86(Hm<~!#11>)JPP$Bk5gDTPB<<JuQP>?Ky>Y0lP$Bk5gDTE`Q5Q'P#~}(~{KY~}
~{<G0`~})~{!#<rUBHgOB~}:

~{R;!"E`Q56TOs#:DjAd~}22~{KjRTOB#,8_VPRTIOND;/3L6H#,2N<SP$Bk5gDTE`Q5Q'P#3#9f0`Q'~}
~{O0#,?<JT3I<(SEPcU_!#8_VP3I<(SEPc#,CfJT:O8qU_#,?I2;>-9}P$Bk3#9f0`5DE`Q5#,5+~}
~{Ph=;~}500~{T*5D3#9f0`E`Q57Q!#~}
    ~{6~!"Q'O0DZH]#:~}
    1~{!"P$BkRWQ'?lKYVPNDJdHk7(!#~}2~{!"W@CfEE0fO5M3V*J6#,1`<-EE0f4rS!<<D\!#~}
    3~{!"<FKc;z<0O`9XIh18V*J6~},~{2YWwO5M3~}DOS~{!"~}WINDOWS~{V*J6~},~{6`C=Le<FKc;z5DJ9SC!#~}
    ~{H}!"Q'O0J1<d#:C?FZ~}800~{?NJ1#,H+HUVFE`Q5#,C?Ll~}8~{?NJ1!#~}

~{KD!"E`Q57Q#:C?FZE`Q57Q~}5000~{T*#,W!K^;oJ37QC?Ll~}20~{T*!#Hg9{Q'T1UPJUAK~}10~{C{PBQ'T1~}
~{2N<SP$Bk5gDTE`Q5Q'P#3#9f0`Q'O0#,2;AlUPIz=1=p:M=1F7#,TrCb=;E`Q57Q!#~}

~{Ne!"E`QxD?1j~}:~{04UU@M6/2?V0R5<<D\<x6(VPPDVF6)5D=LQ'4s8Y~},~{E`QxVP<6<FKc;zVPNDKY~}
~{<GT1~},~{?<JT:O8qU_SI@M6/2?V0R5<<D\<x6(VPPDM3R;:K7"VP<6<FKc;zKY<GT1!6<FKc;z<0PE~}
~{O"8_PB<<JuE`Q5:O8qV$Ji!7#,=aR5H%OrSPA=VV#:~}

1~{!"1>Ky8:TpMF<v!"02EE9$Ww!#C?TB9$WJ~}600~{T*<S=1=p!#4SJB<FKc;zKY<G;rNDCX9$Ww!#~}

2~{!"SI1>Ky1#KMTZ11>)IO4sQ'!#;q5C4sW(NDF>:M8_<6<FKc;zKY<GT1!6<FKc;z<0PEO"8_PB~}
~{<<JuE`Q5:O8qV$Ji!7:s#,SINRKyMF<v!"02EE9$Ww#,C?TB9$WJ~}800~{T*<S=1=p!#4SJB=LJ&!"~}
~{<FKc;zKY<G;rNDCX9$Ww!#~}

~{<FKc;zVPNDKY<GJG9z<R@M6/2?PBVF6(5DV0R5#,D?G09z<R;z9X!"7(T:!"9+02!"Q0:tL(!"~}
~{<GU_!"4s9+K>5DW\>-@m5H<1Ph<FKc;zKY<GT1!#NRKy1#V$?<JT:O8q5DQ'T1~}100~{#%5DMF<v!"~}
~{02EE9$Ww!#~}
    ~{Ay!"1(C{5X5c~}:~{11>)JP7aL(6+4s=V6+;u3!B7~}35~{:ET:~}  ~{SJ1`#:~}100071
    ~{5g;0#:~}66715533-2126
    ~{F_!"Q'O05X5c#:TZ11>)JPNRKy?*Ih5DE`Q5;y5XQ'O0!#~}
    ~{1>UPIz<rUB=bJMH(Jt1>Ky!#~}
                 ~{11>)JPP$Bk5gDTPB<<JuQP>?Ky~}  ~{Ky3$#:P$K.Ge~}  1998~{Dj~}8~{TB~}3~{HU~}
                 ~{11>)JP:#5mGxP$Bk5gDTE`Q5Q'P#~} ~{P#3$~}


=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:10:46 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Gregory Kellett <gkellett@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization: MailCity  (http://www.mailcity.com:80)
Subject:      termination of membership
Mime-Version: 1.0
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To whom I hope to concern
Please be so kind as to take me of the list for the geodesic discussion group.  Interesting stuff, But I haven't the time.  Thank You


Now MailCity offers forwarding so you can check your MailCity messages and other e-mail all in one place.  Go to http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:37:34 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: TRADEMARK
Comments: To: Dymaxion <dymaxion@dymaxion.net>
In-Reply-To:  <01bdbea6$1088eee0$8f3b2acc@default>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:15 PM 8/2/98 -0700, Dymaxion wrote:
>Mr. Urner,
>
>The band name "Dymaxion" was chosen by the band members because of our
>admiration for Buckminster Fuller.  Like many of his designs, all of the
>structural parts are necessary for the success of the design.  We felt that
>way about the band, that all of the members were necessary for the band to
>succeed.  Whenever we have been interviewed in trade magazines, we al always
>quick to point out that the word was coined by Mr. Fuller and it gives us
>the opportunity to talk about the dymaxion car, geodesic domes, etc.  We are
>always quick to credit where we got the name and our admiration for his
>designs.  We have never intended to violate any trademarks in any way.  We
>are mearly fans of Mr. Fuller and are linking the band to the concepts of
>this great person.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>Dymaxion, the band.
>

Thanks ya'll.  Feel free to explore websites for links cluing
your fans re the meaning of 'dymaxion' and Fuller's lifetime
of planning to make worthwhile dreams come true.  I've got some
useful links at: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/links.html
including to Joe Moore's excellent site.

I'm of course willing to link to yours from my artindex.html
as well, if you boost content re Fuller even just a little
(actually, you've met my criteria already -- adding a link).

Kirby
4D Solutions
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:45:36 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: TRADEMARK/Bucky & schools
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.96.980802181148.6732A-100000@rocky-gw.oswego.ed u>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:31 PM 8/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>         Uh Kirby,  Maybe some schools don't but in New York State i
>feel there are many that do teach Bucky directly and principles
>indirectly in the Technology Education courses.   There are images
>and artifacts of Fuller and his work in many schools.   Also i have
>university courses where the only focus  Fuller and his (our) work.

I'd like to know more.  I've been trying to find what university
courses have 'Synergetics' listed as required reading.  I'm still
under the impression that Dr. Loeb at Harvard was about the only
academic to prescribe Dr. Fuller's tomes.  I use as empirical
evidence to back my supposition that the volumes went out of
print.  Were they being assigned as college reading, Macmillan
would have kept the presses turning.

The rest of your news is all quite encouraging and I thank you
for the update.

>
>        Uh Kirby,
>        Some of us are doing it, we just need more math teachers to help
>        :~)
>        john belt
>

I'm working on it.  More math teachers with synergetics savvy in
the pipeline.

Kirby
Curriculum writer
Oregon Curriculum Network
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 01:01:53 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         JustWINK <justwink@AOL.COM>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Subject:      Re: TinkerDomes

Some more specific info on MAKIT TOY.

The spherical hubs are made of wood, painted
orange, and have holes lying on the vertices of
the octahedron and its mid-edges (rhombic
dodeca) but not of the cube.  One of the octa-
vertex holes goes all the way through the ball.

The kit I have is the JUMBO MAKIT, 275 pieces.
The other pieces are clearly tinkertoy, though
there is no acknowledgement of this.  The two
listed patent numbers are:
2088128, 7/27/37
2170771, 8/22/39

The container also says:
AN ACTIVE MOTION TOY
CREATIVE
EDUCATIONAL
DURABLE
PRACTICAL

The top and bottom of the tube have
red bands which say:
...MAKIT WITH MAKIT WITH MAKIT...
ad infinitum, so to speak.

I have done a bit of searching and have
not found any reference to the toy or any
other kits for sale.  Anyone else ever seen
one?

Wink
www.winkworks.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:42:38 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      EVERYTHING I KNOW TRANSCRIPT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

The 12 transcripts of Bucky's "Everything I Know" (42 hours of video) are
located at:
http://www.critpath.org/bfi/every/everything_i_know_session_one.htm


****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:02:23 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      GEODESIC DOME SLIDES
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

114 color slides of Bucky's geodesic dome prototypes are located at:
http://209.196.135.250/line_view.htm

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:45:34 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Bucky & Schools

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      03-AUG-1998 12:45
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Wink, perhaps, you have THE prototype of MAKIT WITH MAKIT WITH.

 mister Belt, what in Hell does the following sentence refer to
 (I'm afraid, some of us suffer from "engineer's grammar-deafness") ??

 thus quoth:
 I am going to go to our president to see if we
  can drop out of state tuition in order to help fill school positions
  due to the lack of people to fill them currently.

 --
 tHE nEVERENDING eND OF hISTORY --
 HTTP://WWW.TARPLEY.NET
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:32:34 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Brian Hutchings wrote:

> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      25-JUL-1998 15:17
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  Sagan really flipped-out with "Contact", if
>  the requirement for ET-assistance was not just a metaphor or goad
>  (then-again, he was a protoge of the original doc.Strangelove,
>  Leo Szilard).  I am not sure, if you are promoting the "two cultures",
>  FC.  uh, "FC"; since when did they give the Unabomer a terminal?...
>  well, since you're "here", why don't you tell us,
>  what that really stands-for -- family circle?  [note:
>  I can't see any "from" field on this set-up.  NB:
>  I didn't *see* the movie, but I read reviews of it;
>  I love to hate Hollyweird !-]
>     as for your assertion, linguistic philosophy is so rigorous,
>  then, Why is Chomsky such a jerk?...  ha-ha, rhetorical question:
>  it (apparently) is because he's a Fabian Socialist!...  seriously,
>  in things "scientifically methodical", you have to go
>  to the Socratic dialog, of which "dialectical materialism" is such
>  a tepid shadow, in part because of Marx et al's obiesance
>  to British imperialism, and the self-same's definition
>  of capitalism, as per Adam Smith's antirepublican tract,
>  as "trade is freedom" -- and Adam was a Founder o'th'USoA;
>  I buh-LEAF !!
>  --
>  eat the Beast (pass the Tobasco (tm)) !!
>  http://www.tarpley.net



Not Szilard but Edward Teller, was doctor Strange glove.

And never Carl Sagan.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:47:28 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      les junques de Roswell etc.

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      03-AUG-1998 14:47
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 with the advent of Viagra (tm),
 (dead and, in this case, white) male icons are hard to keep down!
 seriosly, if you've noted Sagan's PBS series,
 The Weaponeers, you'd know that it was *definitively* Szilard,
 who was his mentor; as for the charicature,
 you'd have to know of Szilard's role, with Russell,
 in the Pugwash meetings (see "The Wells of Doom" article,
 http://www.larouchepub.com).

 thus quoth:
  >  eat the Beast (pass the Tobasco (tm)) !!
  >  http://www.tarpley.net



  Not Szilard but Edward Teller, was doctor Strange glove.

  And never Carl Sagan.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:03:20 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      PATENT PICS
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

25 black & white drawings of Bucky's patents are located at:
http://www.bfi.org/graphic_patent_index.htm

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:00:54 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         John Belt <belt@OSWEGO.EDU>
Subject:      \Re: Bucky & Schools
In-Reply-To:  <199808031945.MAA10464@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        OOPS,  Thanks Brian,
         Was going to rewrite that sentence and was interrupted
a couple of times and did not rewrite before mailing.  It's me,
NOT you, sorry.  I meant to say that i was going to ask for the increase
in tuition for out of state students be dropped.  It is not out of the
question for this to be done and it was proposed a few years back but
not acted on, why i am not sure.  There is a real shortage of technology
education teachers and this might be one way to help increase recruiting
of students and add needed diversity to the student body also.  It is my
understanding that this is a local decision and i feel that it has a
good chance of passing.  Our campus has about 8,500 undergraduate
and the degree rated very well with the U.S. News review of schools.

        Again i expected to be questioned on the statement, thanks.

        best, jb :~)#

---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Belt, Design Faculty               Phone:  (Office)315-341-2868
Department of Technology                        (Studio)315-341-2867
SUNY Oswego                             Fax:    315-341-3363
Oswego, NY 13126                        Home:   315-342-2280
---------------------------------------------------------------------

On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Brian Hutchings wrote:

> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      03-AUG-1998 12:45
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  Wink, perhaps, you have THE prototype of MAKIT WITH MAKIT WITH.
>
>  mister Belt, what in Hell does the following sentence refer to
>  (I'm afraid, some of us suffer from "engineer's grammar-deafness") ??
>
>  thus quoth:
>  I am going to go to our president to see if we
>   can drop out of state tuition in order to help fill school positions
>   due to the lack of people to fill them currently.
>             (((((((drop out of state tuition INCREASE)))))):~)#
>  --         (((((((to perhaps increse out of state enrollment)))))):~#)
>  tHE nEVERENDING eND OF hISTORY --
>  HTTP://WWW.TARPLEY.NET
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Aug 1998 04:04:32 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      The Videogrammatron (announcement re TV pilot)
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
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          ANNOUNCEMENT RE THE VIDEOGRAMMATRON
       (repost/forward OK, kill date Dec 31, 1998)


FR:  Kirby Urner, 4D Solutions
TO:  Animators/Artists, Potential sponsors, Talent
RE:  Business opportunity (Silicon Forest)


Those of you with animation skills, e.g. have produced shorts
for Childrens Television Workshop (CTW), animation festivals,
videos on technical subjects etc. might be interested in
sending samples of your work and/or brochures/URLs re your
firm to 4D Solutions.[1]

Our test pilot TV series, for possible syndication (after
screening for test audiences here in the Silicon Forest), is
now in storyboard phase.  Entitled "The Videogrammatron"
(inhouse project name -- perhaps changed for release), this
math-science show will feature short clips (claymations,
animations...) spliced together from archives, with each
show a mix of new and old, ala the 'Sesame Street' model,
along with interviews of talent in the field, other live
action ('Bill Nye the Science Guy' an inspiration, also
MTV).

If you're interested in sponsoring the show i.e. have a toy,
kit or gizmo of math-science relevance which you would like
featured in an educational context (with web address), this
may be worth checking into as well.

The curriculum behind this series is custom-tailored to serve
a specific market niche and has a fairly tight focus, in the
interests of having the heterogenous clips from a variety of
artists/sources all interrelate (much as 'Sesame Street'
interrelates its clips around topics A-Z and 1-20).  So of
course some criteria apply (preponderance of clips will run
for under 2 minutes).

Submitted materials not returned unless return postage/mailer
included.  Do not send confidential or eyes-only segments
(that might come later, if we agree to nondisclosure in
writing). Do not expect immediate replies. And please,
DO NOT SEND LARGE FILES as email attachments (by pre-
arrangement, I can point you to my FTP site for uploading).

To get some idea of themes and threads we're following, and for
a peek at current sources of raw materials, check my website
(winner of the coveted Dr. Matrix award for science excellence):
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/synhome.html and also links at
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/links.html (e.g. Richard Hawkins
QuickTime archives and STRUCK animations).

Bottom line:  if you produce relevant clips, we'd like to
collaborate and offer fair compensation for your time/energy.
We will hope to negotiate (usually nonexclusive) rights to
allow unlimited recycling of your contributions in our TV
series, with full attribution and contact information
(provided you wish this) available via the companion website
(not always practical to squeeze all credits into the show
itself).

Sincerely,

Kirby Urner
Principal
4D Solutions

PS:  If your firm is a sophisticated computer graphics shop,
you might want to try taking on the challenge of producing some
prototypical hypertoons.  For more on the hypertoons concept,
see my write-up at: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/hypertoon.html

PPS:  feel free to forward this message in its entirety
(kill date:  December 31, 1998).

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:35:13 -0700
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From:         Chuck Knight <cknight@FLASH.NET>
Subject:      Re: Lift a weight (5Kg) with the energy from a candel
Comments: To: nick@ECE.VILL.EDU
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> And how large does the balloon have to be if it has no candle, but the top
> hemisphere is transparent and it receives 1 kW/m^2 of vertical sun, and the
> bottom hemisphere is black inside and silvery outside, with a thermal
> conductance of 1 W/m^2C?

I have 2 problems with the above suggestion.

First, the original problem was to lift a 5Kg mass with energy input
from a single candle.  Not a candle plus solar input as well...

Second, why are we assuming that we want to lift a SOLID mass of
5Kg?  We certainly can heat 5Kg of AIR with the input from a single
candle...and an air mass that is less dense than the surrounding air
will rise...lifting the weight.  Remember, it doesn't have to
necessarily do useful work...we're simply lifting 5Kg with a fixed
energy input.  Why include dense solids like balloons and payloads?

     -- Chuck Knight

P.S.  I am assuming that this is a thought experiment, and as such
we can get as creative as we want...within the parameters of the
original problem.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:12:40 -0700
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: will link you
Comments: To: Phil Hyde <timesize@channel1.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Phil,

>From my site one may find all kinds of people interested in one or another
aspect of Bucky's work.  Please feel free to use any of the material at my
site any way you wish.  It is all intended to be in the public domain.  I
think it is about time that the politicians start including some of Bucky's
ideas in their discussions. Thanks for the positive feedback.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Hyde <timesize@channel1.com>
To: joemoore@mail.cruzio.com <joemoore@mail.cruzio.com>
Cc: timesize@channel1.com <timesize@channel1.com>
Date: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 01:56 PM
Subject: will link you


>Joe-
>You have done a fabulous job on the Bucky Fuller website!
>Thank you on behalf of all Bucky's old acquaintances and disciples!
>
>It took me awhile to find you.  I searched for Buckminster+Fuller and got
>1000s of hits with you nowhere near the top.  Then +carbondale, nothing.
>+pennsylvania because Bucky was at U.Penn., nothing.  Then +geodesic, got
>81 hits and you were #61.
>
>I was getting scared that Bucky had no real site - what a tragedy that
>would be and shame on us!
>
>I followed Bucky around across New England in the early 70s.  I focussed
>on his worldgame idea and got into MIT's System Dynamics realization of
>it in the form of the Limits to Growth seminar based on World Model 3.
>
>His "if somebody else is doing it, it's not the most important thing for
>you to be doing - find something that nobody else is doing" influenced me
>greatly and I wound up working in the area of his new world-around
>accounting system, I guess.
>
>Anyway, check out my website:
>www.channel1.com/~timesize
>I'm not sure right now where I've mentioned Bucky but one or all of the
>mentions will shortly turn into a link to your great site.  One place I
>could link him is the definition of the economic problem as scarcity.
>Right now I have that associated with Kohler because of his book,
>Scarcity Challenged, but let's see, that would mean clicking on "Phil's
>purpose and platform" in the menu near the bottom, and then maybe on
>"many names" (for the economic puzzle).
>
>- Phil Hyde
>GOP nominee for Joe Kennedy's open seat in the 8th Mass. Congressional
>District
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:22:35 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         "Joe S. Moore" <joemoore@MAIL.CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: RFB Books
Comments: To: "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Trevor,

I will be adding you to the section "Books by Bucky; Used books dealers
selling Bucky books". My next revision also will include ALT tags for the
graphics, plus lots more captions. Thanks for the virtual pat on the back.
It was a lot of tedious, but necessary, work! Now that a framework is
established, I can start filling in more details, especially in the
"Shelter" and "People" sections of LINKS.

****************************************
* Joe S. Moore
* Independent Buckminster Fuller Scholar
* joemoore@cruzio.com
* Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
* http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
****************************************
-----Original Message-----
From: P. O. Box 2321 <box2321@teleport.com>
To: joemoore@cruzio.com <joemoore@cruzio.com>
Date: Sunday, August 02, 1998 09:48 AM
Subject: RFB Books


>Joe:
>
>Just took a first look at your revamped BVI pages - many thanks for the
>detailed work!  I will be going back and sending people there for sure.
>
>Your site is workable via lynx but a little inelegant... if you put ALT=""
>in your graphic tags then you won't have a page full of [INLINE] when
>viewed via lynx.
>
>Last month Alegra asked if she could add me to the bfi.org WWW pages as a
>dealer with a Bucky specialty - I said yes!  Perhaps you could add me
>to your listing, at the URL found in my signature below.
>
>Thanks again,
>
>- Trevor Blake
>
>--
>J. Whirler Used & Rare Children's Books | Trevor Blake
>http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/jw.htm | 503-236-2364
>P. O. Box 2321 - Portland OR 97208-2321 | box2321@teleport.com
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:01:14 GMT
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From:         Jim Carr <jac@IBMS48.SCRI.FSU.EDU>
Organization: Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts

pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) writes:
>
>Actually Richard Feynman is one of my role models here --
>always eager to distill the complex details to simple,
>yet accurate and precise, concepts and pictures.  Cave
>paintings, if you will.

 You might note that Feynman did not distill the complex details
 concepts and pictures that were inaccurate or imprecise.  They
 were not cave paintings, and -- unlike some of your analogies
 used in presenting the calculus -- they were not wrong.

 Note followups.

--
 James A. Carr   <jac@scri.fsu.edu>     | Commercial e-mail is _NOT_
    http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~jac/       | desired to this or any address
 Supercomputer Computations Res. Inst.  | that resolves to my account
 Florida State, Tallahassee FL 32306    | for any reason at any time.
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:17:56 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
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scott@math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) wrote:

>A teacher who insists on the usual picture of a point, with or without
>ridicule and sarcasm, is making a deeper mistake, however.

Wasn't talking about "a picture" so much as the concept of "non-
dimensional".  In computer graphics (e.g. ray tracing, VRML), the
"non-dimensionality" of a point, and the ranking of "points, lines
and planes" as 0,1,2- dimensional on some "dimensional ladder" is
not particularly relevant to the game.  You have conceptual volume
and objects populating at, all of them volumetric.  A point and
the remainder of volume (not-point) have the same characteristics,
dimension-wise.  The space is granular (owing to upper limits on
computer hardware to register proximate distances) and conceptually
one might define it as 4D (because minimally coordinated by 4
basis vectors, not 3 basis + 3 not-basis) or 3D (because any open
triangle of a 4D tetrahedron can "snake" from the origin to any
surrounding point, with the complementary zigzag also present
-- because the tetrahedron is our minimal volumetric topology).

http://members.xoom.com/Urner/images/genesis3d.gif

You can have a consistent approach to a mathematical subject and
an enjoyable career minus much investment in yesteryear's claptrap
re "dimensionality" was my point (which is why teachers needn't
push "non-dimensional points" with a lot of strut and puffery).
Of course we can still spend a little time on the old definitions
for backward compatibility.  But flatlander geometry in Euclidean
space ("a flat beach in Greece") doesn't really depend on learning
of "a quantum dimension-ladder with fractal interpolations" either.

>Euclidean geometry the term 'point' is undefined; or better, it's
>defined by the axioms.  Any two-sorted collection of objects that
>satisfies the axioms for points and lines (under some definition of
>'lies on' or what have you) can be said to consist of points and
>lines, no matter what these objects 'look like'.  A teacher who

>misleading mathematics: he's simply wrong, as wrong as if he were
>teaching that 1 + 1 = 3, as wrong as Fuller's Just-So story about
>positional notation, etc.
>

You are comparing a logical approach based on tautologies, definitions,
agreements (not all articulated) to an historical narrative account.
That's wrong.  I've already posted about my philosophy of history
(as a lot of Just-So stories which need to be cross-checked and
omnitriangulated, nevermind who "objectively" the source dresses
up the account).

Kirby


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:59:30 -0000
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         hal mc whinnie <halchaos2@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject:      fractal of the week listserv
Comments: To: moderator@acn.net.au

for any who are interested I have a free service in which I send one of my
fractal designs each week to the list of subscribers. these are sent as
attachaed files in jpeg or gif formats.

To subscribe send me an e-mail

I have begun a discussion on some of the aesthetic issues of the digital
revolution and i hope to continue these over the next few weeks on the
fractal of the week

hal mc whinnie
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:18:17 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
MIME-Version: 1.0
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jac@ibms48.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr) wrote:

>pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) writes:
>>
>>Actually Richard Feynman is one of my role models here --
>>always eager to distill the complex details to simple,
>>yet accurate and precise, concepts and pictures.  Cave
>>paintings, if you will.
>
> You might note that Feynman did not distill the complex details
> concepts and pictures that were inaccurate or imprecise.  They
> were not cave paintings, and -- unlike some of your analogies
> used in presenting the calculus -- they were not wrong.
>
> Note followups.

"Cave paintings" is a precise, technical term for me, used
consistently throughout my writings.

Minus any specifics or details, I find it hard to counter
your charges.  Your critique doesn't get much more refined
in subsequent postings either.

Note followups.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:51:34 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      05-AUG-1998 18:51
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 they were not *all* wrong;
 it's somewhat dangerous, these days,
 to deify the Dead, the White and the Male!

 thus quoth:
  > were not cave paintings, and -- unlike some of your analogies
  > used in presenting the calculus -- they were not wrong.

 I mean, he was probably pretty close on the O-ring Affair
 (which was actually a political result of continuous Congressional
 wimping-out to the Post-industrial Paradigm,
 for which James Begley was escape-goated, and the general trend
 toward neolib/neocon "trade is freedom" monetarism, as promoted
 by the Mont Pelerin Society of von Hayek (see the startling brief,
 "Global Warning", in *National Review*, some time ago;
 that is what Buckley et al promote)), but
 I still don't dyscern, why they are called, "zero-rings";
 a critical temperature o'Celcius?

 --
 The End, Period [*].
 http://www.tarpley.net

 * there was floor debate, today,
 on the submerged McDade-Murtha amendment, being the same
 as the Citizens Protection Act of'98 (HR#3396), and
 i called the congressional Hotline to input my suggestion,
 that my Rep.argue for it -- as Rep.Waters finally did, as well
 as Conyers!...  that is, it was included as a part
 of the DoJ Appropriations Bill.  in other words,
 tentatively, The End, Semicolon, Ellipsis, Question Mark!
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:54:32 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Alternative investor-reward systems
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:09 PM 8/1/98 -0400, Doug Henwood wrote:
>Kirby Urner wrote:
>
>>Bottom line:  what we're starving for out here in the Silicon
>>Forest isn't money so much as skills.
>
>Which is something that private markets aren't terribly good at providing.

Store front martial arts academies maybe.  Public sector control
of credentialling has been a barrier.  Inhouse certification of
teacher trainers a possibility.

>No employer wants to train someone who can pick up & leave;

But have to do it anyway (sometimes with subsidies, e.g. from
Private Industry Council) -- and kids know it looks fickle to quit
before attaining at least some degree of mastery (takes time to
learn the ropes).  Resume suffers if it blares "unable to commit"
(although sometimes you find the job ill-suited right from the
outset -- best to discover this during probationary period).

>the incentive is to try to train people only in firm-specific
>skills.

Yes, I agree.  Best when incoming talent has all the right stuff
and just needs a few pointers re corporate culture quirks to
start being productive.  In that sense I see what you mean.

But if stock-owner parent working for IBM gets earmarked tuition
credits redeemable at IBM-certified facilities.  Other investors
(not employes, but developer partners) might get similar benefits
for their kids.

Sounds far-fetched maybe, but Motorola is already running grade
schools in China.

>SV's been free-riding off training and R&D subsidies provided
>by decades of public-sector support.

UC system rightly boastful of its high caliber.

>With federal funding of basic research squeezed

Feds too fixated on misanthropic weaponry anyway ('basic R&D'
is usually code for 'Star Wars' these days).

>corporate research tending more towards product development than basic
>research,

Product development drives a lot of basic research.  Coming up
with a reliable disk drive and quality control for making them
en mass may require services of someone with a background in
electron tunneling microscopy (a technology for sensing surface
smoothness).  Maxtor has new public offering BTW, just announced.

>and cutbacks in state education budgets, it's no wonder SV is
>starving for skilled workers (and eager to import them from India,
>rather than going to the trouble of training our own underemployed).

Makes more sense to just build facilities in Bangalore -- no need
to mess with INS that way.  Not apologetic about giving kids a break
in India -- just as deserving as anywhere.

"Corporate citizenship" is superceding the national in a lot of ways
-- Silicon Forest (not Valley) may find its social services safety
net owing more to CEOs than tax-paid politicians in near future,
if present trends continue.

Thanks for the insights, opportunity to exchange views.

Kirby
Principal
4D Solutions
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:54:58 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Alternative investor-reward systems
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>> Kirby Urner wrote:
>>
>> >Bottom line:  what we're starving for out here in the Silicon
>> >Forest isn't money so much as skills.

>>Doug Henwood wrote:
>> Which is something that private markets aren't terribly good at providing.
>> No employer wants to train someone who can pick up & leave; the incentive
>> is to try to train people only in firm-specific skills....

>Paul Rosenberg wrote:
>While I agree with Doug in principle, the whole idea of a skills
>shortage in high tech is basically a myth.  It's a way to drive down
>wages, just like importing illegals to undercut the UFW.

Maybe I shoulda said 'smarts' vs. 'skills'. Dilbert may have what
it takes, but that pointy haired boss...

What humans bring to the table is their humanity -- includes a
kind of intelligence (non-misanthropic). A dollar bill, like
an electron, is an asset thanks to surrounding (reprogrammable)
circuits.[1]

I seek developer partners and am getting some (e.g. the math chair
at a local community college recently proposed closer ties). But
I need more peers with "the right stuff" and blame the curriculum
for not producing.

I don't just carp about what's lacking, I actually go to the trouble
to spell out a curriculum I consider more relevant.[2]  What we
really need is a 'math makeover' out here in the Silicon Forest.
I'm seeing some promising signs...

Kirby
PDX 4D

[1] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gst3.html
[2] http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:05:49 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      knock on clear (D-mention it)

MESSAGE from ="List 05-JUL-1998 13:03
 <<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      04-JUL-1998  0:40
                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

  well, the "3-vector" open trigonal "trajectory" is also descartesian;
  he used that, instead of the 3 axes going through a single crossing;
  the shape thus engnedered is the quadrirectangular tetrahedron,
  like the A-module or the Mite (I think).
     the "edge-focus" is tres apropos, if
  you are thinking of an "atomic" polyhedron,
  as opposed to a lattice of them;
  the duals are edge-precessed (with vertices & facets,
  interchanging).  in the lattice,
  the edges & facets are dual (and vertices dualize with cells).
     per fractals, let us not take from M.Mandelbrot his big deal....
  as for the "straight-edge sphere", Bucky equally enthused
  for the round-edged tetrahedron.  the "perfect sphere" dates
  to Nicholas de Cusa's "the Game of Spheres" and "on the Quadrature
  of the Circle" (15th CCE .-)...  ther permeability
  of all spherics (?) is immaterial to the *conception*
  of the sphere, as the embodiment of "circular action", and
  of "construtability" -- to maintain the neologism,
  for a while, which was a mystaque.  that is where modern,
  post-Grecian science has its origins, as perpetuated
  by Cusa's students, Leonardo and Pacioli, and
  the Italian Renaissance (Cusa was German; see ?-)

  thus quoth:
   to read the manual) -- just like Fractals make perfect sense minus
   the hype re "fractional dimensions" (take it or leave it).

   The 4D meme in Buckyite poetics is prior to any (x,x,x) typographical
   claptrap, or even axes (of spin) -- just an observation about inherent
   fourness of symmetry about the origin when enclosing it minimally.

   The tetrahedron is the "straight edge sphere" -- the primordial blob
   with "cutting" edges.  The "perfect sphere" meanwhile, violates the
   "permeability of all surfaces" law, forcing "continua" where mental
   gymnasts perpetually want it to be, but where experimentalists fail

  --
  "the end of history" is "up" here: http://www.tarpley.net
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      05-AUG-1998 19:05
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I was going to repeat that, but, there it was.
    any how, your *equus tartare* on the "3+3 basis/nonbasis vetors"
 is somewhat inapt, as there is often a use, as in diff.geometry,
 of the *trihedron*, as in "the moving trihedron", although
 it is slightly inapt, also (except that
 the 3 planes are just as valid for reference, as are the 3 rays).

 thus quoth:
  basis vectors, not 3 basis + 3 not-basis) or 3D (because any open
  triangle of a 4D tetrahedron can "snake" from the origin to any
  surrounding point, with the complementary zigzag also present
  -- because the tetrahedron is our minimal volumetric topology).

 -- and I certainly agree, about the 4Dness of the minimal boxwhichthing!

 --
 Son-king George's Dad's Great Adventures:
 http://www.tarpley.net
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Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:36:18 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: knock on clear (D-mention it)
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At 07:05 PM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>MESSAGE from ="List 05-JUL-1998 13:03
> <<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      04-JUL-1998  0:40
>                  r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>  well, the "3-vector" open trigonal "trajectory" is also descartesian;

Quadrays labeled "NeoCartesian" (by me included) -- still fighting the
"barycentric" identification (precessionally) via geometry_research.

>  he used that, instead of the 3 axes going through a single crossing;
>  the shape thus engnedered is the quadrirectangular tetrahedron,
>  like the A-module or the Mite (I think).

Not necessary for 3-vector zig-zag to have any 90 degree elbows.
More a way of showing that tetrahedron's topology suggestive of
freedoms -- use Verts, Openings for 4D motif (V+O=), or go with
edges (E+2) when in a 3D mood.  Bucky goes wild: 4D+(2x3D)=10D,
plus energy (frequency) for 11D!  A parody of "ring the bell"
hammer thonking almost, a sideshow (he buries "D-talk" as perfidy
in the end).

>     the "edge-focus" is tres apropos, if
>  you are thinking of an "atomic" polyhedron,
>  as opposed to a lattice of them;

Thinking of tetrahedron as 720 difference between finite but
indefinite Universe and definite system (Universally contextualized)
-- omnidirectional halo scenario.  This is the ab initio of
Synergetics, after which we get stark definitions:

  4D   angle            principles     brain
 ============================================
  4D+  angle+frequency  specialcases   mind

Obviously a philosophy, Horatio.

>  the duals are edge-precessed (with vertices & facets,
>  interchanging).  in the lattice,
>  the edges & facets are dual (and vertices dualize with cells).

Facets = Openings.  Need to keep thinking well VENTilated for
Synergetics to not freeze-lock in heat death.  Cool-head a must.
Vulcan discipline (steamy sex scenes well spaced).

>     per fractals, let us not take from M.Mandelbrot his big deal....

I like the algorithms, appreciate the chaos connection, don't
buy the "fractional dimensions" lingo for native use (will use
though "when in Rome" -- my home for many years) mainly because
of my more generic polemics vs. "hypercross dogmatics" ala the
oft cited www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/hypercross.html

>  as for the "straight-edge sphere", Bucky equally enthused
>  for the round-edged tetrahedron.  the "perfect sphere" dates

No need to get too deep here.  Just think "physically demonstrable"
-- you can have curved stuff, smooth stuff, apparently "solid"
stuff.  But that depends on "approximate" being given its due.
Our thinking is approximal, only wishfully "absolutely true"
(not that it's decadent to be wishful always).  In Synergetics,
nature sets the standard, textbook squiggling a kind of humanoid
"me too", our best math more "wannabee" than "Nature's better".

If you want to be stringent, then no "perfect sphere" gets
through the more refined mesh.

>  to Nicholas de Cusa's "the Game of Spheres" and "on the Quadrature
>  of the Circle" (15th CCE .-)...  ther permeability
>  of all spherics (?) is immaterial to the *conception*
>  of the sphere, as the embodiment of "circular action", and
>  of "construtability" -- to maintain the neologism,
>  for a while, which was a mystaque.  that is where modern,
>  post-Grecian science has its origins, as perpetuated
>  by Cusa's students, Leonardo and Pacioli, and
>  the Italian Renaissance (Cusa was German; see ?-)
>

I don't bother to memorize the Grand Polarity ala "fearless
leader" which helps as a mnemonic for those so inclined --
but at the cost of too much goodie/badie pollution --
hampers my style (if that makes me a badie, I'm happy to
pay that price).

> I was going to repeat that, but, there it was.
>    any how, your *equus tartare* on the "3+3 basis/nonbasis vetors"
> is somewhat inapt, as there is often a use, as in diff.geometry,

I don't dispute there's a use -- perfectly happy to play XYZ games,
right down to the definitions.  But a bit further down, I find
positive mirroring of negatives (or vice versa) unnecessary in
a 4D logic wherein the XYZ "jack" is defined by {1,1,0,0}.

> of the *trihedron*, as in "the moving trihedron", although
> it is slightly inapt, also (except that
> the 3 planes are just as valid for reference, as are the 3 rays).
>

Again, room for both in this town.  Which "basis" you want for
your "anchor" is personal, elective.  I go with the grain as per
Fuller's polemics, in part because so few do, I have the strength
to play contrarian, and somebody should, as 'Synergetics' is too
useful, too much a quality philosophy, to let the lazy-ass
overspecialized piss it all away.  Too quoth a website memo:

  Of course we needn't waste ammo trying to dislodge conventional
  dimension talk from its deeply embedded position -- my goal has
  been more to clarify Fuller's meaning in order to pave the way
  for those with a sincere interest in penetrating more deeply
  into his magnum opus, Synergetics, now on the web (linked
  from my http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/links.html).

   [from: http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ernest.html]

> -- and I certainly agree, about the 4Dness of the minimal boxwhichthing!
>

Cool.

Kirby
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Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:02:39 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      equus tartare -- oh, yum!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      05-AUG-1998 22:02
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 so, Kirby, what is your desideratum for inclusion
 in the newsgroup, of what appears on the list, or
 is that in a FAQ@buffalo.edu?...  I ask, because
 it seems that bit.listserv.geodesic is stuck a ways back,
 unless it's my local newsserver.
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Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:09:29 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      subjectum amnesium

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      05-AUG-1998 22:09
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 at the risk of seeming slavish, here he go, agin:


                  On account of those same principles of
                  Classical humanist education, one must
                  emphasize, that there was nothing
                  accidental in the fact, that the combined,
                  1948-1952 discoveries themselves, were
                  prompted chiefly by my impassioned
                  concern to expose the essential,
                  neo-Kantian fraud underlying certain
                  radical-positivist innovations introduced by
                  two prominent devotees of Bertrand
                  Russell. Those latter, targetted frauds,
                  were, the radically reductionist "information
                  theory" (e.g., radically positivist
                  "linguistics") of Professor Norbert
                  Wiener,[20] and the closely related hoax,
                  the "systems analysis" of Professor John
                  von Neumann.[21]

 --
 [20] e.g., Norbert Wiener, Cybernetics
                  (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1948). The
                  root of Wiener's "information theory," is to
                  be found in the founding of Russell's school
                  of linguistics in the relevant collaboration of
                  Russell, Karl Korsch, Carnap, Hutchins,
                  Harris, et al. Russell's 1938 "unification of
                  science" project, is the setting for the MIT
                  school of linguistics and "artificial
                  intelligence" of Noam Chomsky and Marvin
                  Minsky.

                  [21] After John von Neumann's work had
                  received a devastating blow at the hands of
                  Kurt Gödel's 1930-1931 works "On
                  Formally Undecidable Propositions of
                  Principia Mathematica and Related
                  Systems" and Discussion on Providing a
                  Foundation for Mathematics, Collected
                  Works, Vol. I, (New York: Oxford University
                  Press, 1986), von Neumann shifted into the
                  field of a mathematical theory of games. By
                  1938, von Neumann fell into the absurdity
                  of claiming that he could reduce
                  economics to a matter of solutions for
                  simultaneous linear inequalities. In this
                  connection, von Neumann fell into
                  collaboration with Oskar Morgenstern,
                  producing the radically absurd doctrine of
                  their Theory of Games & Economic
                  Behavior, third edition (Princeton:
                  Princeton University Press, 1953). In a
                  similar vein, von Neumann, like Wiener,
                  proposed the possibility of defining "artificial
                  intelligence" as an offspring of a linear
                  digital computer-system.

                  [22] The initial attack on this problem
                  occurred, during the early 1940s, as a
                  critique of Karl Marx's Capital. The writer's
                  critical focus was on the devastating
                  effects of Marx's refusal to consider the
                  implications of "the technological
                  compositions of capitals," a refusal, stated
                  in Volume I, which supplies the crucial error
                  in Marx's attempt, in his Volumes II and III,
                  to construct an account of "simple" and
                  "extended reproduction of capital." The
                  technological issues which Marx evades,
                  are the foundation for any scientific
                  approach both to the understanding of the
                  processes of physical economy generally,
                  and to the origins of so-called "business
                  cycles." On account of Marx's axiomatic
                  error on this point, the four-volume edition
                  of his Capital manuscripts, and related
                  writings, absolutely does not meet the
                  requirements of a science of extended
                  social reproduction. Over the recent four
                  decades, and longer, this has often been a
                  persisting, crucial issue of attacks on the
                  present writer by those esteeming
                  themselves defenders of Marxist
                  economics orthodoxy.

                  [23] Pietro Pomponazzi (1462-1525).
                  Padua's Pomponazzi emerged as a
                  leading apologist for the opponents to the
                  mid-Fifteenth-Century ecumenical Council
                  of Florence. In his capacity, together with
                  his student Cardinal Gasparo Contarini, as
                  the leading opponent of the
                  Fifteenth-Century Renaissance throughout
                  Europe, he introduced the gnostic,
                  Aristotelean dogma of Averroes et al. into
                  the Venice-dominated, post-League of
                  Cambrai, Sixteenth Century.

                  [24] Paolo Sarpi (1552-1623). Sarpi, who
                  was, from 1582 onward, the leader of the
                  dominant faction of Venice, is notorious for
                  his adoption of a radical version of
                  Aristotelean formalism, a formalism derived
                  from the model of William of Ockham.
                  Sarpi was, in his time, the controller of the
                  English monarchy of King James I, and the
                  sponsor of such related notables as
                  Francis Bacon, Galileo Galilei, and Thomas
                  Hobbes. He is the founder of the British
                  empiricist and Cartesian method.

                  [25] Antonio Conti (1677-1749), famous as
                  the creator of Voltaire and of the myth of
                  Isaac Newton's calculus. He was the
                  leading successor to the role of Paolo
                  Sarpi in spreading the hegemony of the
                  Eighteenth-Century versions of the British
                  and French (anti-Renaissance)
                  "Enlightenment" throughout Europe. Conti's
                  influence, as expressed by Leonhard Euler,
                  Lagrange, Laplace, and Augustin Cauchy,
                  established the political hegemony of the
                  radically reductionist faction in scientific
                  teaching throughout European civilization,
                  to the present day. The notion of "linearity"
                  in the infinitestimally small, and the related
                  radical empiricism of the positivists
                  Bertrand Russell, Norbert Wiener, John
                  von Neumann, et al., are included among
                  the products of this influence of Conti.

                  [26] C.P. Snow, Two Cultures and, the
                  Scientific Revolution (London and New
                  York: Cambridge University Press, 1993
                  reprint).

 http://www.larouchepub.com/lar_substance_moral_2526.html#fn19
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Date:         Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:17:31 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: subjectum amnesium (ibid)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      05-AUG-1998 22:17
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 This Venetian influence has
                  established, as its legacy, a specific
                  pathological trait, a trait which has been
                  imposed upon the most widely accepted
                  beliefs and practice of modern European
                  academic and related culture. The latter,
                  sundry--variously Aristotelean,
                  "neo-Aristotelean," "empiricist," "Cartesian,"
                  materialist, and "positivist"--trends in
                  leading opinion, have established the
                  hegemony of their common pathological
                  dogma, the which implicitly demands a
                  dichotomy between the idea of knowledge
                  in general, such as the so-called "liberal
                  arts," and the notion of rational behavior to
                  be associated with physical science. This
                  conflict is usefully compared with what
                  British author C.P. Snow identified, more
                  simplistically, as the "Two Cultures"
                  dichotomy of modern European empiricist
                  dogma.[26]

                  Despite presently hegemonic kinds of
                  philosophically reductionist influences:
                  since the influence of Classical Greek
                  culture, especially the heritage of Plato and
                  his Academy,[27]

 http://www.larouchepub.com/lar_substance_moral_2526.html#fnB25
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Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 03:03:25 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Cannibalizing the Calculus...
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Based on copious feedback re my:
http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/calculus2.html
from well-meaning math heads, I have renamed my
little essay on this web page to:

Cannibalizing the Calculus:
Pirating Primitives for Curriculum Recycling

This should lay to rest any lingering doubts re my
strategy vis-a-vis the "calc reform" approach
(partially overlapping, not entirely distinct).

Kirby
Curriculum writer
Oregon Curriculum Network
Silicon Forest


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:53:47 +0200
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From:         Nader Daou <nid00@AUB.EDU.LB>
Subject:      Re: fractal of the week listserv
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I am interested in your fractal designs Hal, (if taht's your name). I am also
interested in your work during and before, I mean the how of the design if
possible. Thanks.

Nader Daou
American Universtiy of Beirut
University Library--Serials Dept.
P.O.Box 11-236
Beirut, LEBANON
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Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 02:51:56 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      the forgotten subjectum

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      06-AUG-1998  2:51
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
 you've gotten abstruse for the "lay" crowd on this list, Hornblower
 (everyone who groks the "720", say, Duh!), although, they can look it up
 on _S_, I guess; the "degree" is certainly inessential,though.  also,
 shouldn't "brain" and "mind" be onterchanged?

 thus quoth:
   ============================================
    4D+  angle+frequency  specialcases   mind

  Obviously a philosophy, Horatio.


 as for "permeability of imperfect spoheres", you mis the points,
 that is demonstrated by Bucky's use of spherical polyhedraa, and
 flattened spheres ("spherics"); these are just referents, although
 the "unihedron" has a very special, nonlinear (2nd-poser) place.
 it's just that Bucky places undue emphasis on the edges
 of the polyhedra, owing to the convention of drawing, and
 to the use of struts.
    as for "demonstrability", none of these things *are* such;
 however, the sphere was evident, before any notion of constiteuncy
 of atoms thereof, or of waves; eh?

 [oops; it's dark; sorry for the garbles.]

 thus quoth:
  No need to get too deep here.  Just think "physically demonstrable"
  Thinking of tetrahedron as 720 difference between finite but
  indefinite Universe and definite system (Universally contextualized)
  -- omnidirectional halo scenario.  This is the ab initio of
  Synergetics, after which we get stark definitions:

    4D   angle            principles     brain

 --
 The Neverending End of History!
 http://www.tarpley.net
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Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:08:43 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Equus speaks (a son of Mr. Ed?)
In-Reply-To:  <199808060502.WAA26907@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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At 10:02 PM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      05-AUG-1998 22:02
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> so, Kirby, what is your desideratum for inclusion
> in the newsgroup, of what appears on the list, or
> is that in a FAQ@buffalo.edu?...  I ask, because
> it seems that bit.listserv.geodesic is stuck a ways back,
> unless it's my local newsserver.
>

The NG verision does not adequately mirror the listserv, which
is why awhile back I resubscribed to the listserv (left earlier
because not well maintained, but Patrick keeps it ship shape
these days).  University of Buffalo, the home to this listserv
(and many others) provides a web-based front end to the archives,
gives each posting a unique URL.  If you go to my websites, you'll
find where I make use of this feature:  stuff I've posted to
GEODESIC is hooked by URL as per some relevant context.  Chris
Fearnley's FAQ, another enterprise, also is something of a collage
of GEODESIC posts, organized FAQ-style -- lots of us (e.g. Blaine
D'Amico) get a voice in said publication.

I am listowner of Synergetics-L, another list, am just one more
subscriber here on GEODESIC, albiet one of the more active ones.
I like to transact business in the public domain because of my
Quaker values and a philosophical commitment to transparency as
important to democracy (some secrecy also a feature).

If I manage to pull my local network into the black, because
more folks decide there really is something worth developing
out of the Bucky stuff after all, then I'd want to keep my
books on the web, with some backers getting more access owing
to their development partner status.  Actually, it's this way
already, but the fiscal info is slim, because I'm a philo head,
not an MBA.  My wife is a bookkeeper, and slaved to a number
of NGOs (like me, the programmer). Were the "Bucky stuff" to
take off (ala Videogrammatron, Earthala etc.) we'd get her
doing the inhouse books more exclusively, and be looking to
compensate some of the others (many I've yet to meet) who
have been doing their homework faithfully.  Like Trevor has
been doing great work with Outside-In (youth service NGO).
Hats off to the guy.

As per our discussion last night (Dawn and I), I am in a state
of perpetual shock and disbelief over what I consider to be
the retarded nature of USAers and their religion of "the
invisible hand" (goes with coliseum-style spectator sports
-- a lot of babied Romans expecting to be cared for, confidant
of an imperial destiny).  This idea of just sitting back and
letting "money make money" by some almost risk free process
seems the spectral opposite of risk venturing ala the more
piratical capitalism of old.  Such talent and opportunity
going to waste, such a loss of credibility (thanks to an
overspecializing curriculum wherein a so-called "doctor of
philosophy" can be a complete ignoramus re one of the most
important 20th century philosophies). But I've posted these
diatribes before [1] -- all this is old hat.

One more for the archives.

Kirby
Curriculum writer
4D Solutions

[1] http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/
cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9610&L=geodesic&D=&H=&T=&O=&F=&P=12988
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Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:15:33 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: subjectum amnesium
In-Reply-To:  <199808060509.WAA26941@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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I agree that AI was a bust in a lot of ways, barking with too
much hubris based in an unfounded belief in reductionism.

Lots of threads through lots of beads and you can retrieve
them "just so" to get a pat world history -- and we all do
this, and my only quarrel is if we forget the Kierkegaardian
dictum that "history is subjectivity" (or something along
those lines).

That being said, I have no problem with LLR & Co. milling
and selling their wares.  More useful grist for mine.  Noam
is a big boy and can respond in kind to calumny -- just lets
keep the death threats off the windshield and we'll have a
party (celebration of differences -- "political party"
sounds a bit oxymoronic to my ears).

Kirby
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Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 09:21:13 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: the forgotten subjectum
In-Reply-To:  <199808060951.CAA28373@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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> on _S_, I guess; the "degree" is certainly inessential,though.  also,
> shouldn't "brain" and "mind" be onterchanged?
>

Yes, glad to see you using yours.

> as for "permeability of imperfect spoheres", you mis the points,
> that is demonstrated by Bucky's use of spherical polyhedraa, and

Not sure if I missed the points.  Just saying if you can build it,
Synergetics will come in.

> it's just that Bucky places undue emphasis on the edges
> of the polyhedra, owing to the convention of drawing, and
> to the use of struts.

His topology consists of V, O (openings) and E.  No F, no
"solids".  It's definitional.  Every "thing" is a network of
"things".

>    as for "demonstrability", none of these things *are* such;

What's so non-demonstrable about a spherical tetrahedron?  I've
got one right here somewhere (riffling sound...)

> thus quoth:
>  No need to get too deep here.  Just think "physically demonstrable"
>  Thinking of tetrahedron as 720 difference between finite but
>  indefinite Universe and definite system (Universally contextualized)
>  -- omnidirectional halo scenario.  This is the ab initio of
>  Synergetics, after which we get stark definitions:
>
>    4D   angle            principles     brain
                                          ^^^^^
                                          mind

Goofed.

Kirby
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Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:33:11 -0400
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From:         nicksanspam@ECE.VILL.EDU
Organization: Villanova University
Subject:      Re: Lift a weight (5Kg) with the energy from a candel

>>Let's say we don't use levers, and the balloon material weighs 10 grams
>>per square meter, and it has a thermal conductance of 5 W/m^2C, and the
>>candle makes 50 watts and weighs 500 grams, and the 20 C air in the room
>>weighs 1.2 kg per cubic meter...
>
>And how large does the balloon have to be if it has no candle, but the top
>hemisphere is transparent and it receives 1 kW/m^2 of vertical sun, and the
>bottom hemisphere is black inside and silvery outside, with a thermal
>conductance of 1 W/m^2C?

The balloon collects 1kW Pi r^2 of sun and loses (T-20)(2Pir^2x5+2Pir^2x1)
of heat, so T = 20 + 1 kW/12 = 103 F (maybe, without much reradiation.) The
lift is 1200x4/3Pir^3(1-(273+20)/(273+103)) = 1110r^3 grams, and the weight
is 5000 + 10x4Pir^2, so r = 1.7 m should work.

>And can we keep the balloon up overnight by storing some solar heat in some
>water inside, if the top receives 5 kWh/m^2 on an average January day, when
>the outdoor temperature is 0 C?

I don't think so, without the bubbles. With bubbles at night, and a 6 hour
solar collection day, and r = 3.4 m, and 0.027 m of water, the balloon's
daytime thermal conductance is 2Pi3.4^2x5+2Pi3.4^2x1 = 436 W/C, the average
temperature at dusk is 0+5000Pix3.4^2/6h/410 = 69.4 C, the water volume is
V = Pi0.027^2(3x3.4-0.027)/3 = 0.0078 m^3, it has heat capacity C = 9 Wh/C,
the balloon area under the water is 2Pi3.4(0.027) = 0.58 m^2, and it has a
thermal resistance R = 1.73, so the night time constant RC = 15.6 hours,
Tdawn = 69.4exp(-18/15.6) = 21.9 C, and the lift in 1287 g/m^2 0 C air is
(4/3Pi3.4^3-0.0078)1287(1-273/(273+21.9)) = 15,734 grams and the weight is
5000 + 10^6(0.0078) + 10(4Pi3.4^2) = 14,253 grams. The extra 1.5 kg might
lift a 5 watt PV panel, battery, air pump and controls. Tiny cold soap
bubbles can last up to a year, and work as well as fiberglass insulation,
with 200:1 air/water by volume.

Nick

...Bill Sturm @ Specialty CEA Structures Inc. in Calgary, Alberta, Canada
(403) 274-8800 has a 12,000 SF greenhouse operating, that uses soap bubbles
as the insulation/shading method. They are building a 120,000 SF greenhouse
using this technology now.
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Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:49:01 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
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b_m_scott@my-dejanews.com wrote:

>In article <35c9e6b7.150384039@news.teleport.com>,
>  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
>
>> And a recipe is not to be confused with
>> the end result.
>
>That is precisely the point that I've been making.  And that's your mistake
>with sigma notation: it's the end result, not the recipe.  In the case of
>a sum of finitely many terms, it also implies a recipe for producing the
>result; in the case of infinitely many terms, it merely implies a recipe
>for producing arbitrarily good approximations.
>

You said "implies a recipe" twice with regard to sigma-expressions.
Not so different from "conveys algorithmic content" or whatever.
It gets down to quibbles -- on which you seem to presume great
weight must hang.

>In general it's impossible to determine by calculating partial sums
>whether a series diverges.  If you're able to do so in this particular
>application - and I haven't bothered to check - it's only owing to the
>special nature of the series in question.  Thus, in talking about the
>meaning of the sigma notation you can't rely on being able to make this
>empirical determination.
>

"In general" means "with exceptions" as per standard usage I see.
I don't dispute there's a difference between numeric substitution
and symbolic processing of some kind.  Either way, the sigma-expression
gives algorithmic information, is algorithmic or code for step-wise
instruction execution, which instruction set may be simplified or
transformed by rules of symbolic manipulation, in turn relating
to logical rule-based operating systems.

If the loop is open-ended (indefinitely extensible -- where the
... operator comes in), that doesn't change my thesis (that the
sigma notation is an alternative way of coding step-wise
application of operations, whether for eventual further numeric
processing or no).

>> and based on these results, my algorithm
>> spits out a color for the pixel in question -- hence the many pretty
>> fractals on T-shirts and coffee-table books.  Divergence is just as
>> acceptable a result as convergence and gets its own color.
>
>It is not, however, a value: it is the recognition that the expression
>has none.  That is a fact, a datum, and you can use it for other purposes,
>like drawing pretty pictures, but as a representation of a number the
>divergent series fails miserably.
>

As a representation of a number maybe, but as a good little
sigma-expression, it was a meaningful labor.  That's part of
the difference.

>> You seem to be assuming I can't make n a variable in some expression
>> involving sigma.
>
>And if you do, you're no longer talking about a single numerical series,
>which is *all* that we were discussing.  Your claim was that a single,
>fixed sigma-expression - in the original context one with constant terms
>and a fixed range of summation - was an algorithm.  Even if your claim
>were entirely correct, the stuff that you've been trying to drag in since
>is irrelevant.
>

I see this as quibbling.  Nothing I'm reading inspires me to change
anything I'm teaching about SIGMA as code for a kind of do-loop.
If it's very important that this SIGMA expression contain no variables,
then I'll grant you that my argument may not have been set up in a
way that anticipated all that was to follow.  It doesn't matter at
all to me that sigma-expressions are typically (often) parameterized,
as are do-loops.

>I'm not arguing against pointing out that sigma-notation is reminiscent
>of do-loop notation, and that when the range of summation is finite, a
>sigma-sum can be mechanically converted into an iterative calculation.
>I've made the point often enough myself, for goodness' sake.  I am merely
>insisting that this similarity is NOT identity, and that in the case of
>(convergent) infinite series it is in fact counterproductive to be unable
>to recognize that one is actually talking about a single number.
>

There might be an interesting philosophical discussion here somewhere.
In some ways I think PI is more a chaotic sequence of digits, with
the next unpredictable by any means short of cranking through the
algorithm (whichever).  "Converging to PI" sounds a bit oxymoronic
to my ears in other words, and to me, using a Greek letter as a
symbol for "the value" might just as well be an icon for the
algorithm (substitute Ramanujan sigma-expression here, it might
as well say).

We have many arbitrarily extensible sums which converge to the same
digit sequence as far out as any one can discern.  But I find it
interesting and relevant (perhaps you don't) that Ramanujan's
algorithm was for a time not given a symbolic rationale for its
"digit for digit" matching with other, better understood,
algorithms.  This, for me, leaves open the door for some
sigma-expression to "converge" to a digit-sequence we have no
other symbol for, no alternative algorithm (nothing to cross-
check).

So we have this chaotic series of digits.  We make up a symbol
for it, say 'R'.  By circular definition, we can say "R is the
real number to which sigma-expression K converges".  Or we can
say "R is a symbol for sigma-expression K and/or for the
indefinitely extensible digit-sequence output".

I can imagine a game in which the PI symbol always comes with a
subscript referring to the number of decimal digits to which
it has been computed.  PIsub5 would be 3.14159.  PI... would
mean "it doesn't matter how many digits" but never "all the
digits" (meaningless).  PI by itself would be understood to
mean PI...

>> You're free to play "stick in the mud" and not give way to these
>> advances in pedagagogy,
>
>*What* advance in paedagogy?  Failure to recognize that the sum of 1/2^n
>(n = 1, 2, 3, ...) is simply 2 and *certainly* not an algorithm for
>calculating 2 is no advance.  Pointing out the relationship between
>sigma notation and do-loops is no advance, either, since many of us have
>been doing it for decades.  (You might try finding out what we
>sticks-in-the-mud are actually doing before you toss out those insults
>so enthusiastically.)
>

Your whole quibble boils down to some philosophical distinction
between "the relationship" and "non-identity".  We agree there's
a relationship.  You say sigma-expressions are not identical
with do-loops (just related) but are identical with numbers.
I see numbers as just more symbols and it really has a lot to
do with context whether there's an algorithm (instructions to
be carried out) or not.  In some game, when a 3 shows up, that's
an instruction to jump three squares on the game board.  As such,
"3" is an instruction, a command.  In other cases, it's more
a passive record, the result of some computations and there's
"nothing further to do".  Unlike you, I don't see my job as
trying to "nail it all down" as to what symbols "mean"
regardless of context -- because of my "meaning = use" rule
of thumb, absorbed into my bones from studying Wittgenstein's
stuff.

>> If this isn't how you learned it in
>> school, or what you teach today, so what?
>
>Indeed, so what?  *I* don't know why you're even asking the question!
>Apparently you think that my objections are rooted in intellectual inertia,
>in complacent acceptance of the status quo, or some such silliness.  They
>aren't.  A fair bit of my teaching is off the beaten track, and I think
>that the way some things are traditionally taught is execrable.  Moreover,
>I don't think that we teach the right things.  Let's just take all that
>as read.
>
>Some of the geometrical ideas that you want to play with could be put to
>good use in mathematics paedagogy.  Some of the associations that you
>choose to miscall 'hyperlinks' are old hat and *are* put to good use.

I agree, old hat.  Your agenda seems to be to prove my relative
degree of imprecision and so the old hat stuff we both agree to
and already teach becomes something else, a game of getting me
to show off how imprecise I am.  We are unable to have a serious
conversation because I'm the second-class ignoramus who doesn't
understand math well enough to engage in any peer-to-peer
relationship.  So instead of being agreeable, you quibble,
ad infinitum, to prove your intellectual superiority.  That's
how it seems to me.

>But you want to do something rather different: you want to use perfectly
>ordinary mathematical ideas as a vehicle for indoctrinating kids with
>ideas that not only have nothing to do with mathematics and science but
>which will stand in their way if they decide to go into those fields.

I think I've renamed my essay to your liking (see below).  I'm
cannibalizing the old curriculum for servicable concepts (primitives)
which I can recycle in a newer, more synergetics-informed curriculum
(different philosophical bias/basis).  I am doing so in cahoots with
competent folk well versed in matters mathematical and scientific,
and will succeed only to the extent that people trained in this
alternative thinking are indeed able to produce cogent and useful
results.  There's always the danger of creeping overspecialization
and a rising bullshit factor in this new curriculum as well, but
the old one is past salvaging -- that "doctors of philosophy" can
so easily piss away one of the more important 20th century
philosophies is proof that overspecialization has gotten out of
hand, and that the old curriculum gods, such as they were, have
passed their twilight phase into true obscurity.  I simply can't
trust the curriculum on which I was raised -- inadequate preparation.
I prefer to work with others on constructing something new in its
place.

To be short about it:  because the Princeton philosophy doesn't
make 'Synergetics' required reading on any syllabus, or hasn't,
didn't even when I was there 1976-1980 (first volume out in '75),
I have little faith in the competence of those behind this
decision and/or inaction to practice the "liberal arts" as I
feel they must be practiced if we're to address "Problems of
World Hunger" (Woodrow Wilson School 454 in my day). My concerns
in this regard are a long time part of the public record, as
anyone can see via 'Further Readings' at
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bio.html

>As if that weren't bad enough, you don't know much mathematics, much of
>what you think you know is wrong, and you routinely confuse logical
>categories.  In short, I'm not objecting in general to doing something
>different, but specifically to problems that I see with what you want to
>do.  If you want to be insulting, at least find insults that might
>actually apply.
>

Yes, from my perspective, you are speaking from the tomb of what
I consider an abysmal failure of a curriculum.  I write off your
bellyaching about "logical categories" and decrials of my mathematical
ability as ethnocentric invocations of an already half-dead logic
it'll be hard to resurrect down the road, because so couched in
obscurity already, so specialized in its expression, so boring
and irrelevant to most students even today.  Wittgenstein's stuff,
the later stuff especially, is written in the vernacular. 'Synergetics'
likewise avoids a lot of crabbed squiggles, considered the hallmark
of intelligence as per the Russell-Whitehead stereotype of what
constitute "foundations" or "principia".  To have invested so
much in fine tuning those crypto-compressed notations was a
strategic error, insufficiently respectful of intelligent
laypersons with real responsibilities but no time for those
"expert system" artificially intelligent languages.

I'm not saying the great math heads of the past will be forgotten,
nor their contributions junked.  But I do see a lot of context
shifting, a lot of recasting going on.  And this isn't about me
in particular (I'm one more actor in the cast, as are you). It's
about humanity struggling to grow up, to mature, to take care of
business on this planet.  The old curriculum is too much a
junkyard to just accept and "reform" -- which is why I'm more
honestly up front about my intent to "cannibalize".

>Not for an arbitrary convergent series, you can't!  If the value isn't
>known in closed form, the best you can do is get approximations.  And if
>the series converges slowly enough, they may still be in left field even
>if you run the thing from now till the end of the century.

I presume PI is one of those we know in "closed form".  Yet when am I
beyond using an "approximation"?  Just because I use the symbol (Greek
letter) it's somehow "infinitely precise"?  Seems a favorite trick of
math heads to define infinite precision into existence with a mere
wave of the hand.

In my epistemology, nature is exquisite and precise and all human
formalisms, definitions, games with symbols, are relatively low
tech, "mere approximations" relative to what goes on in the
natural setting.  Our ability to indefinitely extend the output
of the PI algorithm is interesting, but I'm more interested in
knowing how billions of bubbles form in the wake of a ship --
such supernumeracy we hardly approach with our computers.

We have no evidence that energy processing of this kind actually
makes use of any PI value.  When does nature "break off the
computation" and decide to produce and imperfect bubble?  Fuller
asked this question to poke fun -- "I don't think nature is using
PI" was his intuitive answer.  Which doesn't mean we should phase
PI out of the curriculum -- not my viewpoint at all (just we
should remember that "approximation" is what we humans do with
our "infinitely precise" logic -- still baby math as far as
nature is concerned -- does this line make me a "romantic"?).

>
>>  Are fisherfolk "reading the waves and sky" as indicators of
>> whether to cast nets doing something "scientific"?
>
>Probably not, though at times they may be verging on it.
>

You seem to have some implicit model here?

>> How about an artist building a complex tensegrity
>> (sculpture of tension and compression members, no compression
>> members touching) -- lots of special skills, trial and error,
>> intuitive components.  Science?
>
>Definitely not.
>

How about engineering then?  Is it philosophy?

>> I make other distinctions aside from yours,
>
>This is not apparent, at least in the context of these discussions.
>
>> operate with other definitions,
>
>If you want to communicate with readers of sci.math, it's *your*
>responsibility to make communication possible.

I've already posted I consider sci.math something of a backwater
-- too frenetic for one thing.  I'm more in the mood to document
my thinking for whatever it's worth.  Perhaps I'll have more
sympathetic readers via Deja News some five to ten years hence.
But I'm also getting some good results from sci.math readers
today.  My viewpoint is not entirely unintelligible to all of
them.

>If you're going to
>use old words with new meanings, you should carefully define them
>*before* you confuse people.  You will also get a much better response
>if you introduce your definitions sans slurs and insults.
>

I've got a whole syllabus out there to back me up.  This is the
endgame, not the beginning.  If you haven't time to do more
homework, that's not my problem.

>But your idiosyncratic definitions are actually in many ways just a
>small part of the problem.  The subject usually called calculus doesn't
>become a branch of what is usually called discrete math no matter what
>definitions you use, and when you insist otherwise to mathematicians,
>you just make a fool of yourself.

Some of these mathematicians are mere "mathematicians" in my book
-- it's going to be an uphill battle to restore market value to
that PhD as it is, given how academic "philosophy" has slid into
such irrelevance of late.

>Arguing that from the 'granular'
>nature of writing materials one can infer anything at all about the
>nature of *mathematical* constructs is simply a logical error; it has
>nothing to do with definitions.
>

I'm interested in "natural" constructs and a mathematics which mirrors
these as precisely as possible.  To the extent your mathematics
swerves from being about reality is the extent to which I'm
content to merely cannibalize your "game of pretend" for stuff I can
use to get on with my business.  This isn't to say I invalidate math
which isn't about reality -- oft times it may appear to have no
relation but then gravitate towards center stage over time.  But
I do have a problem leaving mathematics to "experts" who fantasize
their "pretend logic" is the "foundation" of my culture and its
mathematical competence (or should be).  Like Wittgenstein put it
(vis-a-vis Russell-Whitehead style "foundations"):  holds up math
the way a painted foundation holds up a painted castle.

I prefer LW's "On Certainty" to Russell-Whitehead's "Principia",
truth be told.

>I can tell you *how* yours (as expressed here) is imprecise, but I
>don't know *why* it is; my impression is that it's because you don't
>care about precision.
>

I don't care about *your* precision perhaps.  I see the old
curriculum kind of like I see a surgeon who has made a bloody
mess of things, and is now looking up from his "work" and
trying to lecture me on how exactly to hold the scalpel. "If
this is what your 'precision' gets you, I want none of it" is
what I have to say to the old schoolers.  But then many old
schoolers were Bucky's students (Ed for example), so this
ain't ageism, not intergenerational conflict -- a lot of my
allies are octagenarians and the like.

>> I keep the math, dispense with a lot of the metaphysics.  You may
>> think they're glued together
>
>No, I don't think that any metaphysics is involved.  That's your hang-up.
>

I use the word "metaphysics" differently than you do, without
apology, and not necessarily less precisely (but you haven't
done enough homework to know, that I'll grant).

>> and I'm not allowed to operate with vectors if I don't
>> buy into hypercross lingo.
>
>I obviously don't think any such thing: *I* think that the notion that
>one can 'buy into' the usual terminology is meaningless.  There's nothing
>to buy, boy: it's just terminology, and it happens to be more useful over
>a wider range of mathematical settings than yours.
>

Says you.  It's been around a lot longer, I'll grant.  "Came first
in history" is no proof of "of superior quality".  A lot of that
terminology is just more "Model T".  It'll keep changing, whether
I feed the recycling machine or not.  None of this stuff ever has
"stood still".

>
>No, I should say exactly what I did say.  If it were truly 'clear' that
>'conceptual volume is 4D' in the naive sense that you'd like to imply,
>why did human beings ever get side-tracked in the first place?

Because they were small, relative to the earth, and thought two pillars
side by side were on a flat plane earth stretching to an edge.
Rectilinear thinking has its cultural/historical origins.  A lot
of sea-going cultures never got so hooked on it in the first place,
and are better positioned to dig out of it now.

But I agree with your term "sidetracked".  Time to get back on
the main line.

In science fiction, who planets can suffer through a dark age and
then start to awaken.  Nothing in the operating manual says you
can't have a majority of humans getting "sidetracked", putting
too much emphasis on the cube, not enough on the tetrahedron.
Could happen.

>Even if
>there were a good reason for giving your view primacy - and I can't see
>one - it's obvious that your view *isn't* intuitively clear.
>

Obvious to you.  Some people can't see "the old woman" or "the
young woman" in those gestalt flip pictures.  "It's obvious this
is an old woman" is what you might say.

>> However, I think struggling in this direction, trying to "see in
>> a different way" as per Synergetics, is maybe more productive than
>> banging your head against the wall trying to "see in more dimensions"
>> ala the preachings of hypercross dogmatics
>
>Here we go again.  I don't know who these 'hypercross dogmatics' are,
>but damned few of them are mathematicians.  You're the one with the
>hang-up about it; most mathematicians I've known couldn't care less.
>

Many of them are blind to their own dogmatics, don't understand how
I can plant a "skeptical inquirer" flag right in their own back yard.
You may fit the bill. Certainly a lot of sci.math readers know
exactly what I'm talking about, and maybe some of them are giving
4D conceptuality a second look, dropping any further attempts to
transcend the "physical limitiations" of their 3D view.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:24:53 -0400
Reply-To:     scott@math.csuohio.edu
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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From:         "Brian M. Scott" <scott@MATH.CSUOHIO.EDU>
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Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
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Kirby Urner wrote:

> b_m_scott@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> >In article <35c9e6b7.150384039@news.teleport.com>,
> >  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:

> >> And a recipe is not to be confused with
> >> the end result.

> >That is precisely the point that I've been making.  And that's your mistake
> >with sigma notation: it's the end result, not the recipe.  In the case of
> >a sum of finitely many terms, it also implies a recipe for producing the
> >result; in the case of infinitely many terms, it merely implies a recipe
> >for producing arbitrarily good approximations.

> You said "implies a recipe" twice with regard to sigma-expressions.
> Not so different from "conveys algorithmic content" or whatever.

Indeed it is not greatly different.  Nor would I have objected had you
originally said that sigma notation conveyed algorithmic content.  But
you said that it *was* an algorithm, which is not the same thing at all.

> >In general it's impossible to determine by calculating partial sums
> >whether a series diverges.  If you're able to do so in this particular
> >application - and I haven't bothered to check - it's only owing to the
> >special nature of the series in question.  Thus, in talking about the
> >meaning of the sigma notation you can't rely on being able to make this
> >empirical determination.

> "In general" means "with exceptions" as per standard usage I see.

No, Kirby.  To be able to do something _in_general_ is to be able to do
it *without* exceptions - in the general case rather than only in
specific cases.  And yes, the usage is standard.

> >> You seem to be assuming I can't make n a variable in some expression
> >> involving sigma.

> >And if you do, you're no longer talking about a single numerical series,
> >which is *all* that we were discussing.  Your claim was that a single,
> >fixed sigma-expression - in the original context one with constant terms
> >and a fixed range of summation - was an algorithm.  Even if your claim
> >were entirely correct, the stuff that you've been trying to drag in since
> >is irrelevant.

> I see this as quibbling.

And I see your attempt to counter the original objection by changing the
object under discussion as weaseling, i.e., a transparent attempt to
avoid admitting error by shifting the grounds of the argument.

> >I'm not arguing against pointing out that sigma-notation is reminiscent
> >of do-loop notation, and that when the range of summation is finite, a
> >sigma-sum can be mechanically converted into an iterative calculation.
> >I've made the point often enough myself, for goodness' sake.  I am merely
> >insisting that this similarity is NOT identity, and that in the case of
> >(convergent) infinite series it is in fact counterproductive to be unable
> >to recognize that one is actually talking about a single number.

> There might be an interesting philosophical discussion here somewhere.
> In some ways I think PI is more a chaotic sequence of digits, with
> the next unpredictable by any means short of cranking through the
> algorithm (whichever).

But this is fixating on a single, specific way of representing numbers.
In ordinary decimal notation you could make the same statement about phi
('golden ratio', (1 + sqrt(5))/2).  But if instead of using decimal
notation we represented our numbers as continued fractions, listing only
the integer part and the sequence of denominators, phi would be <1; 1,
1, ...>, and the n-th 'digit' (read: denominator) would be entirely
predictable.  If you're just looking at the decimal expansion, you're
classifying numbers on the basis of a fairly superficial characteristic
(and one that could reasonably be considered an historical accident).

> This, for me, leaves open the door for some
> sigma-expression to "converge" to a digit-sequence we have no
> other symbol for, no alternative algorithm (nothing to cross-
> check).

What's to check?  If you can prove that the series converges, you have a
name for the number.  You can give it a shorter name if you want, or if
the number turns out to be useful in some way, but I agree that giving
it such a name isn't very interesting.

> I can imagine a game in which the PI symbol always comes with a
> subscript referring to the number of decimal digits to which
> it has been computed.  PIsub5 would be 3.14159.  PI... would
> mean "it doesn't matter how many digits" but never "all the
> digits" (meaningless).

I really don't understand why you think that this is meaningless.

>  Your agenda seems to be to prove my relative
> degree of imprecision

Nope - no agenda.  Reflex: see umpteenth silly statement from annoying
person, stomp.  (Always assuming that I care about the topic.)  And with
rare exceptions (like the paragraphs just above), I do find you
annoying.  I've no doubt that you reciprocate.  'But this I know, and
know full well ...'

>  We are unable to have a serious
> conversation because I'm the second-class ignoramus who doesn't
> understand math well enough to engage in any peer-to-peer
> relationship.

Well, you *do* keep making significant mathematical errors (which
wouldn't bother me if you weren't involved in teaching) and then trying
to defend them (which is guaranteed to get my back up).

> one of the more important 20th century philosophies

<shrug>

> >and you routinely confuse logical
> >categories.

>  I write off your
> bellyaching about "logical categories" and decrials of my mathematical
> ability as ethnocentric invocations of an already half-dead logic
> it'll be hard to resurrect down the road, because so couched in
> obscurity already, so specialized in its expression, so boring
> and irrelevant to most students even today.  Wittgenstein's stuff,
> the later stuff especially, is written in the vernacular.

But Kirby, these confusions involve nothing more than everyday English.
(Personally, I find the later Wittgenstein boring and irrelevant, but
philosophy is generally a matter of taste.)

Your apparent faith that the human race can run fast enough at least to
stay in place without considerable reliance on mathematics and science
and their tools seems to me not just unjustified but foolhardy.

> >> How about an artist building a complex tensegrity
> >> (sculpture of tension and compression members, no compression
> >> members touching) -- lots of special skills, trial and error,
> >> intuitive components.  Science?

> >Definitely not.

> How about engineering then?  Is it philosophy?

Are you asking whether I'd be willing to apply one or both of these
labels to it?  What's wrong with calling it art, skill, artifice, etc.?
Yes, there's engineering involved.  I wouldn't say that philosophy
enters into it, but I suspect that some artists would disagree.

> >If you want to communicate with readers of sci.math, it's *your*
> >responsibility to make communication possible.

> I've already posted I consider sci.math something of a backwater
> -- too frenetic for one thing.

Then don't post here; my comment applies if and only if you do.

> >If you're going to
> >use old words with new meanings, you should carefully define them
> >*before* you confuse people.  You will also get a much better response
> >if you introduce your definitions sans slurs and insults.

> I've got a whole syllabus out there to back me up.

Not really; as has been pointed out by others, you have bits and pieces
of one.  And I stand by the last sentence of mine above.

> >Arguing that from the 'granular'
> >nature of writing materials one can infer anything at all about the
> >nature of *mathematical* constructs is simply a logical error; it has
> >nothing to do with definitions.

> I'm interested in "natural" constructs and a mathematics which mirrors
> these as precisely as possible.  To the extent your mathematics
> swerves from being about reality

You really ought to find a different word: products of the mind are very
much a part of reality.

> I prefer LW's "On Certainty" to Russell-Whitehead's "Principia",
> truth be told.

Judging modern mathematical logic on the basis of R-W is about like
judging modern physics on the basis of Newton's 'Principia'.

> >Even if
> >there were a good reason for giving your view primacy - and I can't see
> >one - it's obvious that your view *isn't* intuitively clear.

> Obvious to you.  Some people can't see "the old woman" or "the
> young woman" in those gestalt flip pictures.  "It's obvious this
> is an old woman" is what you might say.

Not a bit: my argument has nothing whatsoever to do with what *I* can
see.  To use your analogy, it's as if practically everyone could see
only the old woman.

>  and maybe some of them are giving
> 4D conceptuality a second look, dropping any further attempts to
> transcend the "physical limitiations" of their 3D view.

I still can't imagine where you get the idea that there's a horde out
there wasting their time trying to transcend the physical limitations of
their 3D view.  Save us from the sky that ain't falling!

Brian M. Scott
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Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
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"Brian M. Scott" <scott@math.csuohio.edu> wrote:

>> >In general it's impossible to determine by calculating partial sums
>> >whether a series diverges.  If you're able to do so in this particular
>> >application - and I haven't bothered to check - it's only owing to the
>> >special nature of the series in question.  Thus, in talking about the
>> >meaning of the sigma notation you can't rely on being able to make this
>> >empirical determination.
>
>> "In general" means "with exceptions" as per standard usage I see.
>
>No, Kirby.  To be able to do something _in_general_ is to be able to do
>it *without* exceptions - in the general case rather than only in
>specific cases.  And yes, the usage is standard.
>

I don't see how "In general it's impossible.... If you're able to do so
in this particular application... _in_general_ is to be able to do it
*without* exceptions..." is internally consistent.  I'm sure you'll
weasel your way out of it though.

>> I see this as quibbling.
>
>And I see your attempt to counter the original objection by changing the
>object under discussion as weaseling, i.e., a transparent attempt to
>avoid admitting error by shifting the grounds of the argument.
>

I think we've established that I use the word "algorithm" differently.
2+2 is an algorithm, it is also an expression for the number 4.
Sigma-expressions are algorithms and sometimes they express a
number (not always).  I don't mind blurring the line between
symbols that are "terminal" (e.g. "numbers") and symbols that
are algorithmic, because this really has more to do with context
than any "in itself" property of a symbol.  "3" is an instruction
to hop three squares in one game, is "the end of the line"
(what you turn in as your "answer") in another.

>But this is fixating on a single, specific way of representing numbers.
>In ordinary decimal notation you could make the same statement about phi
>('golden ratio', (1 + sqrt(5))/2).  But if instead of using decimal
>notation we represented our numbers as continued fractions, listing only
>the integer part and the sequence of denominators, phi would be <1; 1,
>1, ...>, and the n-th 'digit' (read: denominator) would be entirely
>predictable.

Very true that your algorithm may be more or less simply coded, and
it can be a breakthrough to discover a faster, easier, tighter
algorithm which outputs the same string as before.  Ramanujan's
implementation of the PI algorithm gave more significant decimal
digits per iteration than many previous.

Maybe our difference is I see "..." as meaning "continue following
this rule as long as you like" whereas you or others might see
"..." as meaning "and so on to infinity, to the end" -- mainly
because our concept of "value" or "number" requires that we
imagine such an end.  "It has to be there" we tell ourselves.

My approach is to bring the concepts of "chaos" and "incommensurable"
into closer proximity.  In discovering the "root of 2" to be
"irrational", the ancients were coming up with an early notion
of a "strange attractor" -- an incommensurable is akin to a
fractal, the "true coast line of Britain" a kind of PI, we can
always "converge" further but never "get there".

I think of Phi as the "first fractal" (good alliteration --
I can use that -- humanities thing).  Here we have that "self
similarity" (a hallmark of fractals) in a most streamlined and
primitive form.

And I agree with you about the predictability of the next
term in the series (or in this case, next level of continued
fraction), the notational simplicity of this algorithm for
Phi (some of the PI expressions follow simple rules too as
you well know).

You could get a 6 year old to continue the continued fraction
(a kind of growing pictograph), but probably not to understand
why this and (1+root(5))/2 both map to the same coastline.

Note:  I don't usually use sqrt() for 2nd root, since my
model of 2nd powering is a triangle -- irrelevant aside.

>If you're just looking at the decimal expansion, you're
>classifying numbers on the basis of a fairly superficial characteristic
>(and one that could reasonably be considered an historical accident).
>

Agreed.  You can even make PHI your "base" and have positional
notation such that successive digits to the left are "PHI powers"
(something Koski and I have played with vis-a-vis his recursive
T-modular system for building 5-fold symmetrical shapes:  the
tetrahedral modules work as "phi-scaled" measuring cups).  But
you don't get rid of incommensurability by shifting your base
to an irrational number, as then "the rationals" go out of whack.
Four and five-fold symmetry have a chaotic relationship, no way
around it.

>> This, for me, leaves open the door for some
>> sigma-expression to "converge" to a digit-sequence we have no
>> other symbol for, no alternative algorithm (nothing to cross-
>> check).
>
>What's to check?

In this case nothing.  But I might eventually come up with
a whole book of algorithms generating the same chaotic
sequence -- maybe no symbolic logic showing how or why.

>If you can prove that the series converges, you have a
>name for the number.

I've sort of moved from "series" to "sequence" by taking the
PI digits as members of a growing set of integers, I realize
this.  But I'm keeping in mind that we're dealing with a
sequence of sums as well.

Note in my page re "Descartes' Deficit" and the 720 degree
"sphere tax" allocated to n+2 vertices (n = 10 ff where f =
edge frequency of spherical icosa), that you can always
make |360-L|<epsilon for 1/f<delta and yet have other logic
saying you never get to make that last little leap to zero.
Converge as closely to zero as you like, you'll never get
to zero.  How sloppy?  Keep in mind "no perfect spheres"
i.e. this "edge network" is all I have to work with in
my paradigm.

http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/limits0.html

I link these thoughts by the fact that my high frequency
icosasphere gives me a basis for developing an expression
for PI (an algorithm with increasing f).

>You can give it a shorter name if you want, or if
>the number turns out to be useful in some way, but I agree that giving
>it such a name isn't very interesting.
>

I have a chaotic regime, an indefinitely extensible method for
"converging" (zeroing in with no end in sight, no terminus).

>> I can imagine a game in which the PI symbol always comes with a
>> subscript referring to the number of decimal digits to which
>> it has been computed.  PIsub5 would be 3.14159.  PI... would
>> mean "it doesn't matter how many digits" but never "all the
>> digits" (meaningless).
>
>I really don't understand why you think that this is meaningless.
>

I don't like treating "infinity" like some "very large but
definite" number.  You can have all the grains of sand (a
number for that), but not "infinite sand".  The "..." operator
points you in a direction, but it doesn't "get you there".
"Completely expanded PI" means nothing to me.  I just get
silly images of libraries filled with books, disk drives
overflowing with numbers -- irrelevant nonsense.  Sticking
an algorithm in front of my face with a "lazy eight"
(infinity symbol) in it, or a "..." after a series of
terms separated by a +, doesn't "get me there" either.
Fractals don't "stop" -- a chaotic sequence just keeps on
going, like that bunny (except, like the bunny, *we*
eventually stop, because we have other stuff we need
to be doing, or the sun blows up...).

>Well, you *do* keep making significant mathematical errors (which
>wouldn't bother me if you weren't involved in teaching) and then trying
>to defend them (which is guaranteed to get my back up).
>

I'm still not sure how much what I'm doing is irredeemably
wrong and how much is a willful recasting of language within
a consistent paradigm which just happens to be different from
yours.  It would be easy if this were computation or symbolic
manipulation of the usual sort, but it's "lower level" and
definitional (e.g. 2nd power is not a "square").  I think a
lot of your "bug squishing" reflex has more to do with your
thinking I'm using your language badly, vs. using a different
language altogether.

>> one of the more important 20th century philosophies
>
><shrug>
>

I know, I know, not your department.

>
>But Kirby, these confusions involve nothing more than everyday English.

I speak Irish.  Never bothered to learn English.  Must be a fine
language.

>(Personally, I find the later Wittgenstein boring and irrelevant, but
>philosophy is generally a matter of taste.)
>

Math too in a lot of ways.  Some like it "schmaltzy" (this is lifted
from an actual conversation with a real mathematician, comparing
tastes in math to tastes in music).

>Your apparent faith that the human race can run fast enough at least to
>stay in place without considerable reliance on mathematics and science
>and their tools seems to me not just unjustified but foolhardy.
>

Never said that.  Foolhardy if I had.  I just don't see you or even
your network as authoritative vis-a-vis what is ultimately meant
by "reliance on mathematics and science".  That's part of a large,
iterative computation going on in the nooks and crannies -- lots
of symbolic manipulation going on around this question.  Foolhardy
to think we have all the answers in hand.  Obviously I'm placing
bets on synergetics as more relevant to the future our math/science
culture than you are.  But that's only one wild card among many.

>> I've already posted I consider sci.math something of a backwater
>> -- too frenetic for one thing.
>
>Then don't post here; my comment applies if and only if you do.
>

I'm not inclined to truncate too early -- if there's any more
fine tuning of our respective positions of possible value to
others in doing their own thinking, I'm willing to go one more
iteration...

>> I've got a whole syllabus out there to back me up.
>
>Not really; as has been pointed out by others, you have bits and pieces
>of one.  And I stand by the last sentence of mine above.
>

Not sure what it takes to claim a "whole syllabus".  Certainly
my school of thought is better endowed than many, in terms of
multimedia assets, a core set of readings, relevant software...

>> >Arguing that from the 'granular'
>> >nature of writing materials one can infer anything at all about the
>> >nature of *mathematical* constructs is simply a logical error; it has
>> >nothing to do with definitions.
>
>> I'm interested in "natural" constructs and a mathematics which mirrors
>> these as precisely as possible.  To the extent your mathematics
>> swerves from being about reality
>
>You really ought to find a different word: products of the mind are very
>much a part of reality.
>

Yes, agreed.  A "game of pretend" still occupies time, and real energy
consumption goes on (some might say "waste" but lets not be hasty --
as long as the necessary janitorial work is getting done somewhere,
if not here, we can afford to support a talented cast of imagineers).

>> I prefer LW's "On Certainty" to Russell-Whitehead's "Principia",
>> truth be told.
>
>Judging modern mathematical logic on the basis of R-W is about like
>judging modern physics on the basis of Newton's 'Principia'.
>

This is a whole topic in itself.  I leave it to others -- and stay
with my position (that "what math rests on" doesn't have to be a
symbolic logic in the R-W tradition).  E.g. 'Synergetics' is low
level.  LW + RBF looks like a useful "core" for growing outwardly
from, logically, mathematically.  Certainly we're seeing some of
this growth today (my "we" doesn't necessarily include you at
this point -- no offense).

>
>Not a bit: my argument has nothing whatsoever to do with what *I* can
>see.  To use your analogy, it's as if practically everyone could see
>only the old woman.
>

All the more reason to encourage those who see the young to assist
the others.

>>  and maybe some of them are giving
>> 4D conceptuality a second look, dropping any further attempts to
>> transcend the "physical limitiations" of their 3D view.
>
>I still can't imagine where you get the idea that there's a horde out
>there wasting their time trying to transcend the physical limitations of
>their 3D view.  Save us from the sky that ain't falling!
>

Believe it or not, I get emails from people telling me how hard
they've tried to "see the fourth dimension" or whatever.  We hear
rumors of especially talented mathematicians who really can do
this, and the notion is that unless you can grow up to be like
them, you're never going to be accredited as a geometry guru in
the western tradition.  If you don't encounter these lost sheep,
maybe that's because your daily bread isn't so geometry-based as
mine, dunno.  But I can assure you, the phenomenon is not just
a figment of my personal imagination.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Fri, 7 Aug 1998 07:43:55 GMT
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From:         Robin Chapman <rjc@MATHS.EX.AC.UK>
Organization: HyperCross HeadQuarters
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Primitive Approach to Humanistic Concepts

In article <35CA1F25.5A96@math.csuohio.edu>,
  scott@math.csuohio.edu wrote:
> Kirby Urner wrote:
>
> > There might be an interesting philosophical discussion here somewhere.
> > In some ways I think PI is more a chaotic sequence of digits, with
> > the next unpredictable by any means short of cranking through the
> > algorithm (whichever).
>
> But this is fixating on a single, specific way of representing numbers.
> In ordinary decimal notation you could make the same statement about phi
> ('golden ratio', (1 + sqrt(5))/2).  But if instead of using decimal
> notation we represented our numbers as continued fractions, listing only
> the integer part and the sequence of denominators, phi would be <1; 1,
> 1, ...>, and the n-th 'digit' (read: denominator) would be entirely
> predictable.  If you're just looking at the decimal expansion, you're
> classifying numbers on the basis of a fairly superficial characteristic
> (and one that could reasonably be considered an historical accident).

This shows a remarkable lacuna in Urner's mathematical conceptions.
While he is happy to stress the relativity of coordinate systems in geometry,
for arithmetic he regards a real number as a stream of decimal digits
and there's an end to that. The idea that real numbers (of course a
fundamentally *geometric* concept) might have alternative systems of
notation has not penetrated his thick skull. Let me guess why; perhaps
Fuller never mentioned it.

> > I can imagine a game in which the PI symbol always comes with a
> > subscript referring to the number of decimal digits to which
> > it has been computed.  PIsub5 would be 3.14159.  PI... would
> > mean "it doesn't matter how many digits" but never "all the
> > digits" (meaningless).

Like all Urner's "games", this is a bloody stupid one.

> >  We are unable to have a serious
> > conversation because I'm the second-class ignoramus who doesn't
> > understand math well enough to engage in any peer-to-peer
> > relationship.

Blimey! The first thing Urner has written that I agree with! But for
once he's too modest: surely he's a first-class ignoramus.

Robin Chapman

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Subject:      Chaos & Incommensurability
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            OF CHAOS AND INCOMMENSURABILITY
                 IN SYNERGETIC GEOMETRY
                    by Kirby Urner
                    August 7, 1998

In synergetic geometry, the nested systems of the concentric
hierarchy (tetrahedron, duo-tet cube, octahedron...) divide
into two regimes:  the 4-fold symmetric and 5-fold (noting that
the tetrahedron is also 3-fold symmetric).

The 4-fold family is coordinated by the A and B modules,
equivolumed irregular tetrahedra of volume 1/24.  The 4-fold
systems all have simple, whole-numbered volumes relative to the
nuclear tet of volume 1.

The 5-fold family sets up chaotic tension within the hierarchy,
introducing dynamism and incommensurability.  The Pythagorean
demonstration of root(2) as chaotic is transferred to the 4D
jitterbug transformation:  a root(2) diagonal of the
cuboctahedron's square face shortens to 1 as the cuboctahedron
jitterbugs to icosaphase: the jitterbug is a smoothly
transformational bridge over incommensurability (chaotic
waters).

The 5-fold family has incommensurable volumes relative to the
4-fold family of A/B modular assemblies. Koski's recursive,
phi-scaled modular set, slicing irregular tets from the golden
cuboid (phi x 1 x 1/phi) is what works well here.  But where
do 4 and 5 fold families come into closest proximity, how
shall we "tune chaos" within our concentric hierarchy model?

Fuller, like Koski, is using the so-called T-module cut from
the rhombic triacontahedron (RT, 5-fold) and finds an
interesting feature.  If the RT's diameter from face-center to
opposite face-center is set to precisely 1 (circumscribes an
IVM sphere), then the 120 E-mods have an incommensurable volume
relative to the A & B mods.  But if you shave the tiniest hair
off the RT's diameter, letting it shrink (relax) ever so slightly,
then you've got an RT with a whole numbered volume of precisely 5,
and T-mods of volume 1/24 (same as A and B modules).

Incommensurability has not been removed from this picture, merely
focussed to the relationship between the PVR RT and the PVR- RT
(PVR = prime vector radius, the radius of an IVM sphere; PVR-
means PVR with a bit shaved off; RT = rhombic triacontahedron).
Chaos is attuned in the relationship between the T-mod (PVR-)
and the E-mod (PVR).  The difference is tiny (PVR-/PVR is small),
but from an energy containment viewpoint, critical.  T-mods
conserve energy while E-mods deliver it back to Universe.

The chaotic tension between 4- and 5-fold symmetry permeates
Universe and "making sense" has to do with knowing how to be
energy-conservative in a chaotic regime.  Synergetics itself
makes sense from an E<->T point of view (ET) -- which doesn't
keep it from being chaotic (a feature, not a bug).


References:

Synergetics Modules (A,B,T)
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/modules.html

The T Module in Synergetics
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/tmod.html

Synergetics 987.413 (incommensurability & jitterbug)
http://www.servtech.com/public/rwgray/synergetics/s09/p87400.html#987.413

[note:  use sqrt() for 2nd root is a departure from the
original text and is somewhat inconsistent with the synergetics
philosophy -- should perhaps be updated to a radical sign in a
future upgrade.  Note reference to S module as well.]

Synergetics 986.541 (volume ratios of A,B,T,E modules)
http://www.servtech.com/public/rwgray/synergetics/s09/p86520.html#986.540

Synergetics 986.548 (picture of PVR vs PVR-)
http://www.servtech.com/public/rwgray/synergetics/s09/p86520.html#986.548
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Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>This shows a remarkable lacuna in Urner's mathematical conceptions.
>While he is happy to stress the relativity of coordinate systems in geometry,
>for arithmetic he regards a real number as a stream of decimal digits
>and there's an end to that.

I regard PI as a symbol for an algorithm (or book of algorithms).
You can call it a "real number" if you like (so can I, when playing
the standard game), but I'm free to explore other terminology.
The inventiveness I bring to the table is the same kind that
cooked up "real numbers" and the "real number line" in the first
place.  This isn't a game where I'm trying to guess "the truth"
-- but a game of inventing games (ones that work, have internal
logic).

>The idea that real numbers (of course a
>fundamentally *geometric* concept) might have alternative systems of
>notation has not penetrated his thick skull. Let me guess why; perhaps
>Fuller never mentioned it.
>

Where are you getting this information?  Have you been tracking the
discussion at all, or just decided to but in at random because
you couldn't hold back?  I doubt you've ever cracked the cover of
'Synergetics' (2 volumes, 1975, 1979 -- and now on the web).

>> > I can imagine a game in which the PI symbol always comes with a
>> > subscript referring to the number of decimal digits to which
>> > it has been computed.  PIsub5 would be 3.14159.  PI... would
>> > mean "it doesn't matter how many digits" but never "all the
>> > digits" (meaningless).
>
>Like all Urner's "games", this is a bloody stupid one.
>

It relates to looking at "..." and "lazy eight" ("infinity symbol")
in a different light.  You stick the PI symbol on an algorithm and
say "but what I really mean is the value after infinity iterations
-- 'completely expanded' result", and I say "well I just mean the
algorithm, feel no logical compulsion to posit a terminus".  The
ancients discovered chaos, incommensurability, not a new set of
"real numbers" -- is another way of telling the story.  No notation
game is going to cover up chaos, even if we call it something else.

>> >  We are unable to have a serious
>> > conversation because I'm the second-class ignoramus who doesn't
>> > understand math well enough to engage in any peer-to-peer
>> > relationship.
>
>Blimey! The first thing Urner has written that I agree with! But for
>once he's too modest: surely he's a first-class ignoramus.
>

Such a wit.  Ever do stand-up comedy?  Bet you knock 'em dead.

Posted your verdict re quadrays = barycentric at
http://forum.swarthmore.edu/epigone/geometry-research/skexkhangax
BTW.  Thanks for the feedback.

Kirby


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Date:         Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:13:46 -0400
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From:         Jim Hunter <jim.hunter@REMOVE_TO_EMAIL.JHUAPL.EDU>
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Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts
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Kirby Urner wrote:

[...]

 > Believe it or not, I get emails from people telling me how hard
 > they've tried to "see the fourth dimension" or whatever.  We hear
 > rumors of especially talented mathematicians who really can do
 > this, and the notion is that unless you can grow up to be like
 > them, you're never going to be accredited as a geometry guru in
 > the western tradition.  If you don't encounter these lost sheep,
 > maybe that's because your daily bread isn't so geometry-based as
 > mine, dunno.  But I can assure you, the phenomenon is not just
 > a figment of my personal imagination.

  People can barely "see" in 3 dimensions, let alone 4. There
  are scores of examples of optical illusions of 3D structures
  projected onto a 2D surface, where the eyes cannot lock onto
  the underlying 3D structure. If someone can "see" 4D structures,
  they probably are fairly simple structures. Whether or not it
  is even worth the time to practice "seeing" them is very
  debatable.

  ---
  Jim
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 7 Aug 1998 17:48:37 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Syn-l: Chaos & Incommensurability
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19980807111700.03048c0c@mail.teleport.com>
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>and the E-mod (PVR).  The difference is tiny (PVR-/PVR is small)
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   Fix:                                       (1-PVR- < 0.0005)

This and other improvements (graphics, hyperlinks) now a part
of the web version of this essay:

http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/chaos0.html

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 7 Aug 1998 17:53:32 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Syn-l: Chaos & Incommensurability
Comments: To: synergetics-l@teleport.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>and the E-mod (PVR).  The difference is tiny (PVR-/PVR is small)
>                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   Fix:                                       (1-PVR- < 0.0005)
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Fix:                                       (1-PVR- < 0.00052)

Sheesh.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 8 Aug 1998 00:48:08 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Chaos & Incommeasurability

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      08-AUG-1998  0:48
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us


 there's no where, therein, when Bucky altered the rh.triacontah.
 "by a hair"; what kind of hair?...  hair, but no cigar!
    the fascination with struts or "toothpicks",
 makes the "hierarchy" a mystaque, although its generation by RBF,
 I forgot, for now; as I recall, there's no good *reason*
 for this ~5-tetravol.shape, in spite of the craze
 over the "Eisntein module".  even so,
 there are certainly such inherently remarkable incommeasurabilites, and
 that may be even as fine as *pi spheros d'equus tartare* !!

 thus quoth:
  We have no evidence that energy processing of this kind actually
  makes use of any PI value.  When does nature "break off the
  computation" and decide to produce and imperfect bubble?  Fuller
  asked this question to poke fun -- "I don't think nature is using
  PI" was his intuitive answer.


 so, the most important advance o'Bucky,
 is the frameworking of the question,
 of "tetragonning the sphere".
 (of course, we know from the flat "section",
 it ain't linearizable, or Eulerian .-)

   --
   Son-king George's Dad's Great Adventures:
   http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 8 Aug 1998 02:14:31 GMT
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From:         b_m_scott@MY-DEJANEWS.COM
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Humanistic Approach to Primitive Concepts

On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 06:56:37 GMT, pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:

>"Brian M. Scott" <scott@math.csuohio.edu> wrote:

>>> >In general it's impossible to determine by calculating partial sums
>>> >whether a series diverges.  If you're able to do so in this particular
>>> >application - and I haven't bothered to check - it's only owing to the
>>> >special nature of the series in question.  Thus, in talking about the
>>> >meaning of the sigma notation you can't rely on being able to make this
>>> >empirical determination.

>>> "In general" means "with exceptions" as per standard usage I see.

>>No, Kirby.  To be able to do something _in_general_ is to be able to do
>>it *without* exceptions - in the general case rather than only in
>>specific cases.  And yes, the usage is standard.

>I don't see how "In general it's impossible.... If you're able to do so
>in this particular application... _in_general_ is to be able to do it
>*without* exceptions..." is internally consistent.

It's a pretty straightforward locution: 'In general it's impossible to do X'
means that there is no general - i.e., exceptionless - method whereby X can
be accomplished.  In general it's impossible to trisect an angle with
straightedge and compass (though a right angle can be so trisected).  Are
you worried about the placement of the advervial 'in general' at the
beginning of the sentence when it really modifies 'to do'?  It's idiomatic;
compare 'With straightedge and compass it's impossible to trisect a
60-degree angle'.

>>And I see your attempt to counter the original objection by changing the
>>object under discussion as weaseling, i.e., a transparent attempt to
>>avoid admitting error by shifting the grounds of the argument.

>I think we've established that I use the word "algorithm" differently.

That is true.  It also has no bearing on my objection, which is that you
can't justify applying the term to one kind of object by explaining why it
fits another, different kind of object.

>>But this is fixating on a single, specific way of representing numbers.
>>In ordinary decimal notation you could make the same statement about phi
>>('golden ratio', (1 + sqrt(5))/2).  But if instead of using decimal
>>notation we represented our numbers as continued fractions, listing only
>>the integer part and the sequence of denominators, phi would be <1; 1,
>>1, ...>, and the n-th 'digit' (read: denominator) would be entirely
>>predictable.

>Maybe our difference is I see "..." as meaning "continue following
>this rule as long as you like" whereas you or others might see
>"..." as meaning "and so on to infinity, to the end" -- mainly
>because our concept of "value" or "number" requires that we
>imagine such an end.  "It has to be there" we tell ourselves.

Easy enough to prove in this case.

>My approach is to bring the concepts of "chaos" and "incommensurable"
>into closer proximity.  In discovering the "root of 2" to be
>"irrational", the ancients were coming up with an early notion
>of a "strange attractor" -- an incommensurable is akin to a
>fractal, the "true coast line of Britain" a kind of PI, we can
>always "converge" further but never "get there".

But from a geometric point of view you can get there very easily: a segment
of length sqrt(2) is, as you know, easily constructed.

>You could get a 6 year old to continue the continued fraction
>(a kind of growing pictograph), but probably not to understand
>why this and (1+root(5))/2 both map to the same coastline.

And you can get an even younger child to continue the decimal expansion
0.3333... without being able to understand why it's the same thing as 1/3.
You're still judging everything in terms of a single representational scheme.

>But I might eventually come up with
>a whole book of algorithms generating the same chaotic
>sequence -- maybe no symbolic logic showing how or why.

Until the logic has been found, you don't in fact know that they generate
the same sequence; you have only a conjecture.

>>> I can imagine a game in which the PI symbol always comes with a
>>> subscript referring to the number of decimal digits to which
>>> it has been computed.  PIsub5 would be 3.14159.  PI... would
>>> mean "it doesn't matter how many digits" but never "all the
>>> digits" (meaningless).

>>I really don't understand why you think that this is meaningless.

>I don't like treating "infinity" like some "very large but
>definite" number.  You can have all the grains of sand (a
>number for that), but not "infinite sand".

Why not?

>  The "..." operator
>points you in a direction, but it doesn't "get you there".
>"Completely expanded PI" means nothing to me.  I just get
>silly images of libraries filled with books, disk drives
>overflowing with numbers -- irrelevant nonsense.

But then 'completely expanded 1/3' should also mean nothing to you.  I could
at least understand your position if you simply objected to numbers for
which there is no algorithmic specification of any kind, but both pi and 1/3
admit fairly compact algorithms for the determination of arbitrarily close
approximations (or if you prefer, n-th decimal digits).

>>> one of the more important 20th century philosophies

>><shrug>

>I know, I know, not your department.

Not the problem; these days my academic interests may be more outside
mathematics and science than in.  I just find that philosophy by and large
hasn't much more to offer me than religion has - which *may* put philosophy
just on the positive side.  Mathematics has at least solved some of its
ancient problems.

>>>  and maybe some of them are giving
>>> 4D conceptuality a second look, dropping any further attempts to
>>> transcend the "physical limitiations" of their 3D view.

>>I still can't imagine where you get the idea that there's a horde out
>>there wasting their time trying to transcend the physical limitations of
>>their 3D view.  Save us from the sky that ain't falling!

>Believe it or not, I get emails from people telling me how hard
>they've tried to "see the fourth dimension" or whatever.

It's easy enough to point out that no one else sees it, either.  And if
learning how to specify points in R^3 using 4 coords. convinces them that
they're seeing the fourth dimension, we're in trouble!

Brian M. Scott

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 8 Aug 1998 09:02:21 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chaos & Incommeasurability
In-Reply-To:  <199808080748.AAA08022@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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At 12:48 AM 8/8/98 -0700, you wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      08-AUG-1998  0:48
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
>
> there's no where, therein, when Bucky altered the rh.triacontah.
> "by a hair"; what kind of hair?...  hair, but no cigar!

hair < 0.00052.  Doesn't use word "hair" maybe.  All in volume 2
and/or web version.  Part of a meditation on sense vs. nonsense
in synergetics Universe (he writes he keeps forgetting that
this sounds like gaseous nonsense, way divergent, to many
scientists, but if you get the stuff to start hinge-bonding,
then it will flow).

>    the fascination with struts or "toothpicks",
> makes the "hierarchy" a mystaque, although its generation by RBF,

You assert, you do not expound.  The 'frequency' variable is for
getting as "high rez" as you like, to whatever degree of precision
your instrumentation is capable of.  It's not RBF, but nature,
which appears to be discreetly discrete.  "No solids" is harped
on because of the commitment to nature first, definitions post
hoc.

> I forgot, for now; as I recall, there's no good *reason*
> for this ~5-tetravol.shape, in spite of the craze
> over the "Eisntein module".  even so,

You give a judgement.  Who made you the judge?  But sure, have a
thought on the matter, few even know there's an opportunity to
work at comprehension in this domain.

> so, the most important advance o'Bucky,
> is the frameworking of the question,
> of "tetragonning the sphere".

"No spheres" is hardly a frameworking of the question -- more
a tossing thereof.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 8 Aug 1998 09:26:38 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: Finis
In-Reply-To:  <6qgca7$c7l$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>
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Replied in some detail to Brian Scott in other NGs. Seems we've
ended on a pleasant enough note -- to my ears at least.

The fact remains (from reply to Scott):

   Major uphill battle to get 'Synergetics' categorized as a
   philosophy, but finally succeeded.  The knee-jerk reaction
   of many academic "philosophers" was "this must be something
   else" -- and so it went for every department ('Synergetics'
   ain't the kind of thing we recognize as ours or could possibly
   claim).  I called it 'passing the Buck'.  But now 'Synergetics'
   has settled in to the philosophy department for keeps, is making
   itself comfortable for the long haul.

---

Billboards to a bright future will help get kids' minds off how
to wreak havoc.  Terrorism is directly proportional to hopelessness.
The USA has what it takes to beacon a brighter tomorrow, but in
so many ways is squandering its opportunities, content to "let
money make money" leaving all consequences of irresponsibility
to the "invisible hand".

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 8 Aug 1998 14:20:18 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      BUCKY BOOKS ONLINE
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

'Education Automation' is available online at:
http://www.bfi.org/education_automation.htm

'Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth' is available online at:
http://www.bfi.org/operating_manual.htm

'Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking' (I & II)is available
at;
http://www.servtech.com/~rwgray/synergetics/synergetics.html

'Grunch of Giants' is available online at:
http://www.bfi.org/grunchofgiants2.html

Happy reading---

Joe S Moore
joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:19:58 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Chaos & Incommeasurability (?)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      08-AUG-1998 15:19
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I have already "expounded" on an organic nesting
 of the shapes, on Syn-heL;
 you cannot allow a fixation upon "imperfect precision",
 or otherwise impose truncation upon pi,
 simply for the laughable reason of banishing the Noble Sphere
 to oblivion!...  it is just as easy a proposition,
 to make "no tetragona" your axiomatic boundary;
 as a matter of interest,
 that is the essence of the "Mascheroni" method
 of table-top "constructions" (and there was another guy,
 who'd done it firstly & independently).  I think,
 you'd just exchange the table-top, the flat part
 of the process, for a nice globe (sphere),
 working either on the outside or the inside;
 using the "pair o'compasses",
 you should be able to construct the 4 vertices
 of a particular tetragon (tetrahedron).
    as with Mascheroni, then,
 the scribing of the 6 edges, in this case arcs
 of great circles, is another (optional) step.

 the "almost 5 tetravolumes" is perfervid crap;
 -- peristaltic pronounciamatto --
 give Bucky an inch, and he goes for the 5K !!

 --
 The XXXX Files
 http://www.tarpley.net!
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 8 Aug 1998 18:29:36 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chaos & Incommeasurability (?)
In-Reply-To:  <199808082219.PAA11822@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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At 03:19 PM 8/8/98 -0700, Brian Hutchings wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      08-AUG-1998 15:19
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> I have already "expounded" on an organic nesting
> of the shapes, on Syn-heL;
> you cannot allow a fixation upon "imperfect precision",
> or otherwise impose truncation upon pi,
> simply for the laughable reason of banishing the Noble Sphere
> to oblivion!...

What you call "expounded" is so layered in affect that
I feel you get to use the word only through charity --
and not necessarily through mine.

I think closer to Fuller's meaning was that the "PI route"
to spherical precision is "on the cheap" (less noble) than
approaching the idea more globally, where one's "out"
relationship with a mother in law could put the damper
on your approach to pure sphericity (an experience).

You will find PI (the greek symbol even) used in synergetics,
just sparingly, as a part of the self-discipline.  Not to
make the job easier, but, Fuller felt, more authentic yet.

> it is just as easy a proposition,
> to make "no tetragona" your axiomatic boundary;
> as a matter of interest,
> that is the essence of the "Mascheroni" method
> of table-top "constructions" (and there was another guy,
> who'd done it firstly & independently).  I think,
> you'd just exchange the table-top, the flat part
> of the process, for a nice globe (sphere),
> working either on the outside or the inside;
> using the "pair o'compasses",
> you should be able to construct the 4 vertices
> of a particular tetragon (tetrahedron).

We all have to start somewhere, if that's your point.

>    as with Mascheroni, then,
> the scribing of the 6 edges, in this case arcs
> of great circles, is another (optional) step.
>
> the "almost 5 tetravolumes" is perfervid crap;
> -- peristaltic pronounciamatto --
> give Bucky an inch, and he goes for the 5K !!
>

You seem to think this is a fudge factor, like he's
trying to equate what doesn't fit.  The T-mod RT
is 5.0000000000000..., not close to but on the
money.  The difference to the E-mod RT is small,
and a focus, an exhibit, not an embarrassment, not
something to "sweep under the rug".  There's nothing
imprecise of sloppy about the T vs. E mod discussion
-- thanks in part to his collaborators, who carried
the calculations to a lot of digits, given the
equipment on hand.

His information (just the As and Bs alone) is not
trivial, and only incompetently echoed in secondary
literature (with glaring exceptions).  I consider
this an indictment of our overspecialized monkey
brained civilization, not something to explain away
by projecting our own retardedness on RBF.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 08:36:38 GMT
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From:         Robin Chapman <rjc@MATHS.EX.AC.UK>
Organization: HyperCross HeadQuarters
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Primitive Approach to Humanistic Concepts

In article <35CB27BA.3D9B@REMOVE_TO_EMAIL.jhuapl.edu>,
  Jim Hunter <jim.hunter@REMOVE_TO_EMAIL.jhuapl.edu> wrote:
> Kirby Urner wrote:
>
>  > Believe it or not, I get emails from people telling me how hard
>  > they've tried to "see the fourth dimension" or whatever.  We hear
>  > rumors of especially talented mathematicians who really can do
>  > this, and the notion is that unless you can grow up to be like
>  > them, you're never going to be accredited as a geometry guru in
>  > the western tradition.  If you don't encounter these lost sheep,
>  > maybe that's because your daily bread isn't so geometry-based as
>  > mine, dunno.  But I can assure you, the phenomenon is not just
>  > a figment of my personal imagination.
>

As far as I can recall, in many years on sci.math I have only heard one
person claim that he could see in four dimensions (or "4D" as he terms it).
The bizarre thing is that this guy's "4D" seems to look exactly like
everyone else's three dimensions.....

Robin Chapman

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:15:21 -0400
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From:         me <no@EMAIL.NET>
Organization: NETCOM Canada
Subject:      Do it yourself How?

Ok I would like to build a half dome for my daughter to climb on.  Can you
give me any information (figuring out the peices) on how to do this myself.
Would anyone have a spreadsheet or something to figure out the peice sizes
etc. for a given diameter dome?
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 13:43:24 -0400
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From:         Robert Conroy <Robert_Conroy@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Do it yourself How?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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You wrote:
<<Ok I would like to build a half dome for my daughter to climb on.  Can
you
give me any information (figuring out the peices) on how to do this mysel=
f.
Would anyone have a spreadsheet or something to figure out the peice size=
s
etc. for a given diameter dome?>>

     You might want to check on URL:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robert_conroy/conduitd.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 14:58:59 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
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From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Re: Do it yourself How?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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me wrote:

> Ok I would like to build a half dome for my daughter to climb on.  Can you
> give me any information (figuring out the peices) on how to do this myself.
> Would anyone have a spreadsheet or something to figure out the peice sizes
> etc. for a given diameter dome?

Check out the geodesic papers accessible through my site. At the end of the
first paper is the set of chord lengths necessary for 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5
frequency icosahedral geodesics. Simply multiply the lengths by whatever
constant you want. All the math for figuring it out is in there, plus some java
code.

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 15:35:13 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      re-entry shy a tile

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      09-AUG-1998 15:35
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 well, what if it does -- and
 what'd Alfred E.Newman say ?!?

 thus quoth:
  As far as I can recall, in many years on sci.math I have only heard one
  person claim that he could see in four dimensions (or "4D" as he terms it).
  The bizarre thing is that this guy's "4D" seems to look exactly like
  everyone else's three dimensions.....

  Robin Chapman

 --the XXXX Files
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 15:46:31 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Calculus 102

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      09-AUG-1998 15:46
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 oy; nature *never* breaks-off the calculations, not that
 they're done in Simon Stevin's groovy notation.  that is not
 to go with the silly tautology (guy name Friedman?),
 of Universe as Computer, which always struck me
 as being duller than dishwater.
    I stand by my evocation of Mascheroni's constructions,
 which you did not address, and i recalled the other mathematician,
 Mohr; so, there.  when I have the time,
 I'll launch the online _S_, although I've read the T- and E-mod stuff,
 many times, many moons ago; you'll see (moo-ha-ha !-)

 "Nature makes no poyfek tetragona!" --Buckafka Fullofit, Copyr.'78
 (pre-Y2000)

 --The XXXX Files
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 15:56:22 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      highwatermark

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      09-AUG-1998 15:56
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 I'd appreciate it, if you wouldn't use ad hominems, such as
 my allegedly whacky style of writing;
 no-one seems to be able to quote *exemplars* of my naughty ways, and
 a lot of them clearly mistake minor formatting quirks o'mine
 --about such, they never complain, in others' stabs at e-speak--
 which have *nothing* to do with the language,
 classically deployed or usuallyn't (a-hem).
    or, wait;
 did you not make some nonsequiter, about not knowing English,
 but Celtic?...  i thought, you were the purebred Swiss Count of Zero,
 but if you're using a voice-recognitionware,
 you should tell!

 --The XXX Files
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:34:11 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: highwatermark
In-Reply-To:  <199808092256.PAA18099@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 03:56 PM 8/9/98 -0700, Brian Hutchings wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      09-AUG-1998 15:56
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> I'd appreciate it, if you wouldn't use ad hominems, such as
> my allegedly whacky style of writing;

Your "style" is not a hominem, and if unaffected, then perhaps
a handicap or disability -- in which case I guess we shouldn't
make fun (snicker) -- not that I'm any more alien to the "freak
of nature" charge.  If you're going make use of slings and arrows
(lots of imports), don't be surprised if you get some return
incoming.

> no-one seems to be able to quote *exemplars* of my naughty ways, and
> a lot of them clearly mistake minor formatting quirks o'mine

Lots of "verging on the exclusive" -- a jokers' club with one member.
If in search of private language, I'd rather find me a Jodie Foster
(Nell) than a spewing Linda Blair (The Exorcist) -- both you and she
fond of sliming others (but at least she got paid).

Or could it be that George Bush is a Friend?  Go figure.

> --about such, they never complain, in others' stabs at e-speak--
> which have *nothing* to do with the language,

Maybe that's the problem right there -- your working hypothesis
is there's an e-speak.  Some jargon, internet slang, yes, but
to affect a whole style of wearing-thin vestments -- brands you
for a clown, a wide-ass (all bottom, no depth).

> classically deployed or usuallyn't (a-hem).
>    or, wait;
> did you not make some nonsequiter, about not knowing English,

I can follow... (but your e-speak not that well -- you meet
your reader less than half way, which is costly, in terms
of having any).

> but Celtic?...  i thought, you were the purebred Swiss Count of Zero,
> but if you're using a voice-recognitionware,
> you should tell!
>

Paternal lineage Nordic (Sverge), but name traces to Uri (Altdorf,
straight-arrow Tell), maternal line forks into Irish, Germanic etc.
All sides proud, though I secretly like the Lightfoot heritage for
its NavAm flavor.  'Smoke Signals' a worthwhile film.  Many other
ethnoidal memes waft through this Urner's bones and skulletarium --
been around a few times (literally twice), 3rd-12th grades mostly
not in North America. And steeping in the Fuller syllabus is a way
to "get culture" for sure (lots of great gifts -- eternally grateful).

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:29:03 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Chaos & Incommeasurability

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-AUG-1998  2:28
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 in using the Mohr-Mascheroni constructions,
 using only the compasses to locate the vertices of the object
 on the table, with the connecting segments implied (so that
 the straightedge is inessential -- as is the paper -- or,
 in algebraical terms, that "linearity" is subsumed
 by 2nd-powering), we also note that,
 while the table is akin to a facet of Bucky's "spheric",
 there is apparently nothing on the way,
 of using the compasses on a sphere, doing shperical geometry,
 for navigational purpose (say .-)
      this is another way of saying,
 that the plane is a degenerate sphere (center "at" infinity, or
 antipode twice as far !-)...  the practical limitations being,
 whether the compasses are used inside, or outside of the sphere.

 --The XXXX Files
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:32:42 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      How DIY ??

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-AUG-1998  2:32
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

  <<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      09-AUG-1998 15:30
                   r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

   oh, please (I beg you); if
   it's "just" such a toy, you could do the elementary geometry,
   yourself; nothing more than the taking of 2nd roots!...
   don't restrict yourself to the "frequenced" icosahedron", either.
      on the other hand, for plans,
   I'd suggest going through the Popular Science plywood series,
   the ones that you make from so-many sheets of it,
   utilized to the fullest, as this'd likely give you a route
   that is not "strut-centric" (I haven't read it, enough,
   to be sure, though .-)
      the simplest such thing, perhaps,
   is a "basketweave tensegrity", made of nothing
   but 2x4s, say.  check _Geodesic Math and How to Use It_.

   --The XXXX files
   http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:50:15 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: highwatermark

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-AUG-1998  2:50
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 BS; you have yet to make any dystinction --sorry--
 between "literate (King's [Shakespearean-classical]) useage",
 and any thing that I do.  I aver,
 what dystinctions --sorry-- there are, are for quibblers, just as
 there was no proper spelling in the spear-shaker's time;
 pbviously, I can spell, but use no checker.

 thus quoth:
  Maybe that's the problem right there -- your working hypothesis
  is there's an e-speak.  Some jargon, internet slang, yes, but
  to affect a whole style

 that's wrong, any way;
 I have *no* specialized "e" hype brogue.  the only difference,
 in my outprinted stuff, is that I capitalize (often) the first words
 of sentences, and tend to abuse less "whitespace";
 I use straight ASCII, generally.
    of course, one can glean a charicature,
 in not actually intending to grok what was typed,
 however consciously; these are just English words, typeset.

 --The Imperial Presideency of Sir George
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 03:12:07 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      highwatermarks

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-AUG-1998  3:12
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 ho, I am chastened!

 thus quoth:
  What you call "expounded" is so layered in affect that
  I feel you get to use the word only through charity --
  and not necessarily through mine.

 yes -- the Big Banger!

 thus quoth:
  We all have to start somewhere, if that's your point.

 yes, and I don't *like* fudge, either.

 thus quoth:
  You seem to think this is a fudge factor

 --The End of History -- Again!
 http://www.tarpley.nert
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 9 Aug 1998 22:27:12 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: Calculus 102: A Primitive Approach to Humanistic Concepts
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Robin Chapman <rjc@maths.ex.ac.uk> wrote:

>As far as I can recall, in many years on sci.math I have only heard one
>person claim that he could see in four dimensions (or "4D" as he terms it).
>The bizarre thing is that this guy's "4D" seems to look exactly like
>everyone else's three dimensions.....
>
>Robin Chapman
>

Pity you let sci.math circumscribe your exposure.  And yes,
my terminology differs from yours, what of it?  You don't
even know what A and B modules are (aka "baby math" in my
book).  So it's not like I can afford to accept you as an
authority or anything -- that'd be backsliding into the
primordial soup.  Others yes, I do admit to crediting some
sources as "authoritative" -- you seemed to have a bone to
pick over that in earlier graffiti.

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:31:01 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chaos & Incommeasurability
In-Reply-To:  <199808100929.CAA20881@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>      this is another way of saying,
> that the plane is a degenerate sphere (center "at" infinity, or
> antipode twice as far !-)...  the practical limitations being,
> whether the compasses are used inside, or outside of the sphere.
>

Sounds consistent with my redefinition of "Euclidean space":
a flat beach in ancient Greece.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:35:58 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: highwatermark
In-Reply-To:  <199808100950.CAA20998@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 02:50 AM 8/10/98 -0700, you wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-AUG-1998  2:50
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> BS; you have yet to make any dystinction --sorry--
> between "literate (King's [Shakespearean-classical]) useage",

Correct, I've put you in a play-within-a-play instead,
spouting Elizabethan as per a clown therein.

> and any thing that I do.  I aver,
> what dystinctions --sorry-- there are, are for quibblers, just as
> there was no proper spelling in the spear-shaker's time;
> pbviously, I can spell, but use no checker.
>

So you excuse any anachronistic practice based on appeals to
"when it was vogue"?  Sorry for running over your little dog
mam, but in my day the carriages were horseless (no spell
chequers either).

> thus quoth:
>  Maybe that's the problem right there -- your working hypothesis
>  is there's an e-speak.  Some jargon, internet slang, yes, but
>  to affect a whole style
>
> that's wrong, any way;
> I have *no* specialized "e" hype brogue.  the only difference,
> in my outprinted stuff, is that I capitalize (often) the first words
> of sentences, and tend to abuse less "whitespace";

Well I'd like to hear you in person then.  Do you claim the
gift of blarney and spout such foam over Guiness?  Look me
up if in PDX.

> I use straight ASCII, generally.
>    of course, one can glean a charicature,
> in not actually intending to grok what was typed,
> however consciously; these are just English words, typeset.
>

And these, just Irish.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:01:35 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      A memorable moment...
Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com
In-Reply-To:  <3.0.3.32.19980810113101.03057cfc@mail.teleport.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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[a memorable moment on sci.math]

You can restrict my degrees of freedom (confine me to a narrow
hallway or 10x10 floorspace), but I reject "length without
breadth" as meaningless, and not necessary for doing geometry
in "Euclidean space" (a flat beach in ancient Greece).

"Flatland" teaches us to forget the "viewer" that goes with our
"objective views".  But that you visualize a "point" or "plane"
creates a volumetric relationship between you (the observer)
and the observed.  Plato left out the observing self.  In
computer graphics (VRML, ray tracing), the observing self is a
requirement.

Synergetics defines a "geometry of lumps".  The quantum
dimensional ladder with objects ranked 0,1,2,3 on rungs
("points" at the bottom) is not purchased, not requisitioned
from inventory, not a stage prop we need to set the scene
before embarking on some serious-minded explorations in the
geometry of thinking.

[Kirby Urner, Aug 10, 1998]
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Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:28:48 +1200
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From:         George Levendis <george@CLEAR.NET.NZ>
Subject:      Re: off the list
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Please remove me from this list.
Thank you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:22:25 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Chaos & Incommeasurabilites

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-AUG-1998 17:22
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 "plato left out the observing self", yo'ass!...  there is *no* justi-
 fication for that, of the author of _The Republic_.  in any case,
 as is often done, just substitute "indefinitely extended"
 for infinite, where required, which is simply the Ancient requirement
 for an "analytical `descartesian' system" of co-ordination --
 not the oft-attendant "analytical prison" des Cartes!

 now, I must leave you at your Euclidean Beachhead, pounding sand
 through Eratosthenes' Seive; that's *one* way to find an algorithm
 for "gnereating all of the primes" !!

 --The XXXX Files
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:36:58 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Chaos & Incommeasurability

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-AUG-1998 22:36
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 actually, the construction of great circles (GCs) may
 not be immediate, like using a straightedge on a table;
 one has the problemma, of finding one of the poles
 of the GC, in which to stick the point.
    has anyone seen the plan for the old Greek compasses,
 which had to be held to the table, or the opening'd collapse?...
 meaning, you couldn't use them to "transfer" segments.  I think,
 Mascheroni or Mohr might have kept to this stricture,
 whether they used the latter "rusty hinge", or
 the hinge-with-screw.
    anyway, first to dyssolve the problemma,
 gets a Brownie Point with a ... nevermind!

 thus saith:
      as with Mascheroni, then,
   the scribing of the 6 edges, in this case arcs
   of great circles, is another (optional) step.
  --The Neverending End of the Story
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:56:29 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chaos & Incommeasurabilites
In-Reply-To:  <199808110022.RAA26167@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 05:22 PM 8/10/98 -0700, you wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-AUG-1998 17:22
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> "plato left out the observing self", yo'ass!...  there is *no* justi-
> fication for that, of the author of _The Republic_.

Is this based on scholarship, or a knee-jerk response from
a Platonist fan of LLR.

> in any case, as is often done, just substitute "indefinitely
> extended" for infinite, where required, which is simply the
> Ancient requirement for an "analytical `descartesian' system"
> of co-ordination --  not the oft-attendant "analytical prison"
> des Cartes!

I prefer "arbitrarily extensible".  And in plenty of contexts,
your ruler/system/frame has no need to exceed some definite
domain.  The "extensibility" feature may be irrelevant.

>
> now, I must leave you at your Euclidean Beachhead, pounding sand
> through Eratosthenes' Seive; that's *one* way to find an algorithm
> for "gnereating all of the primes" !!
>

OK, bye.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 23:00:02 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Chaos & Incommeasurability
In-Reply-To:  <199808110536.WAA27462@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 10:36 PM 8/10/98 -0700, you wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      10-AUG-1998 22:36
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> actually, the construction of great circles (GCs) may
> not be immediate, like using a straightedge on a table;
> one has the problemma, of finding one of the poles
> of the GC, in which to stick the point.

If your sphere is a tool, like ruler and compass, just
shish kabaab the thing and spin it on an axis.  Lo, a
great circle network is produced.

>    has anyone seen the plan for the old Greek compasses,
> which had to be held to the table, or the opening'd collapse?...
> meaning, you couldn't use them to "transfer" segments.

Seems you could "hold them open" somehow.  Interesting if
no "transferring" allowed by the old rulebook -- always an
assumed privilege in Flatland today.

> I think,
> Mascheroni or Mohr might have kept to this stricture,
> whether they used the latter "rusty hinge", or
> the hinge-with-screw.

Worth checking into.

>    anyway, first to dyssolve the problemma,
> gets a Brownie Point with a ... nevermind!
>

I'll leave you to your R&D.

In peace,
Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:35:22 -0700
Reply-To:     oregon@domes.com
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From:         Oregon Dome <oregon@DOMES.COM>
Organization: Oregon Dome
Subject:      Re: Bamboo Dome
Comments: To: Jaae@ix.netcom.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I don't have any inforamtion about it, but I have forwarded your
question to an e-mail list dedicated to domes and Bucky Fuller info.
You can read it with a newsgroup reader at bit.listserv.geodesic or
subscribe to the group by sending an e-mail note to
listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with the message "subscribe geodesic"
in the subject line.

Jaae@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> My Girlfriend was involved in the first ever Bamboo Dome which was
> constructed in Puerto Rico with the most amount of women.  It is in the
> Guiness Book of world records.  I was wondering if you had any
> information on it or could find some somewhere.  I have tried, but have
> been unable to locate any.  Thank you.

--
Thanks,

Nathan Burke,
Oregon Dome, Inc.

E-mail:  oregon@domes.com
Web:  http://www.domes.com
Address:  3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR  97402
Fax:  (541) 689-9275
Phone:  (800) 572-8943 or (541) 689-3443
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:03:13 -0400
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From:         John Belt <belt@OSWEGO.EDU>
Subject:      BAMBOO LIST GROUP  FILE:
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        In response to Nathan's post about bamboo where to locate bamboo
i thought that some on the list might have interest in the information
about the bamboo list group.  It is fairly active and most of the talk
is about growing bamboo and how to stop it from growing.  There are some
suppliers of harvested bamboo but not a lot.  A post on the list might
get a few.  The closest place to me in upstate New York is Philadelphia
through David Flanigan (The Bamboo Fencer) and he has a web site.  Also
there is an article about him in a Better Homes and Gardens speciality
magazine that is current on newstand until mid AUGUST, better hurry!!!

        Nathan i will forward a copy of this to the person who made the
request for you.

        john belt
..........................................................................
John Belt, Design Faculty         Studio Phone:  315-341-2867 / voice mail
Department of Technology          Office Phone:  315-341-2868
Oswego State University           DEPT FAX-Attn/jb  315-341-3363
Oswego, New York 13126            Home Phone:    315-342-2280
..........................................................................

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:50:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Belt <belt@Oswego.EDU>
To: belt@Oswego.EDU
Subject: Internet Bamboo Group: Final Notice to subscribe to new server (fwd)



..........................................................................
John Belt, Design Faculty         Studio Phone:  315-341-2867 / voice mail
Department of Technology          Office Phone:  315-341-2868
Oswego State University           DEPT FAX-Attn/jb  315-341-3363
Oswego, New York 13126            Home Phone:    315-342-2280
..........................................................................

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 15:19:48 -0600
From: "James P. Baggett Jr." <bamboofields@earthlink.net>
To: Internet Bamboo Group <bamboo@housing.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Internet Bamboo Group: Final Notice to subscribe to new server

Good Evening Fellow IBG Users,

THIS is the forth and final notice on subscribing to the new Internet
Bamboo Group server. Everyone should start to subscribe to the new
server before Jan. 1, 1998. I have received a few email messages
concerning subscription and commands sent to the server. I will keep all
topics as breif as possible.

SUBSCRIBE TO SERVER:

Send an email message with the following information:

       To: LISTSERV@HOME.EASE.LSOFT.COM
a)Subject: (leave blank if possible)
b)Message: SUBSCRIBE BAMBOO "first_last name"

a) Some email client interfaces will not let you skip the "Subject:"
field and leave it blank. The list server software should ignore
anything in the "Subject:" field. Try to put any character in this field
and send the email message.

b) When typing the SUBSCRIBE BAMBOO command, replace "first_last name"
with your first & last name. Example: SUBSCRIBE BAMBOO John Doe

VERIFY YOUR SUBSCRIPTION REQUEST:

The server will ask for a reply to make sure you want to complete your
subscription request. You will get an email message from the server,
click the "reply" button on your client interface and type the letters
"OK" without the parentheses, then send the email message. That is all
there is to it. You are now subscribed. The server will send you all the
instructions for these steps. Additionally, you will receive
instructions on how to send mail to subscribers of the list along with
other list server commands to configure your subscription.

If anyone has any problems or questions, please send them to my new
email address. It is: bamboofields@earthlink.net

I will answer "all" of your requests as soon as possible. Good luck in
the new year.

Regards,
James P. Baggett Jr.
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:12:23 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: the forgotten subjectum
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Short comment -- interchanging "brain" and "mind" is dangerous.  Brain is
merely a tool, designed to allow tight integration with a mind.  Mind, in
turn, is another tool, designed to allow tight integration with the
spiritual essence of a being.  By confusing the two, we leave ourselves open
to the horrible traps that psychiatrists have laid for us, where massively
destructive poisons known as drugs are shoved down the throats of too many
innocents, thus fostering an increase in insanity and disability.

If you LOOK at the hypothetical structure of spirit --> mind--> brain--> you
find a tetrahedral structure, with ideas being the fourth dimension linking
the other three structural elements.  Very elegant, somewhat useful, but of
course open to the separation of a spirit from either mind or body, thus
allowing disconnection of these elements and resultant insanity.

A further implication of this is the misuse of language, which is a carrier
of ideas, by any individual being.  When that happens, communication is
stopped by confusion -- something i see happening all too often on this list.

At 09:21 AM 8/6/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> on _S_, I guess; the "degree" is certainly inessential,though.  also,
>> shouldn't "brain" and "mind" be onterchanged?
>>
>
>Yes, glad to see you using yours.
>
>> as for "permeability of imperfect spoheres", you mis the points,
>> that is demonstrated by Bucky's use of spherical polyhedraa, and
>
>Not sure if I missed the points.  Just saying if you can build it,
>Synergetics will come in.
>
>> it's just that Bucky places undue emphasis on the edges
>> of the polyhedra, owing to the convention of drawing, and
>> to the use of struts.
>
>His topology consists of V, O (openings) and E.  No F, no
>"solids".  It's definitional.  Every "thing" is a network of
>"things".
>
>>    as for "demonstrability", none of these things *are* such;
>
>What's so non-demonstrable about a spherical tetrahedron?  I've
>got one right here somewhere (riffling sound...)
>
>> thus quoth:
>>  No need to get too deep here.  Just think "physically demonstrable"
>>  Thinking of tetrahedron as 720 difference between finite but
>>  indefinite Universe and definite system (Universally contextualized)
>>  -- omnidirectional halo scenario.  This is the ab initio of
>>  Synergetics, after which we get stark definitions:
>>
>>    4D   angle            principles     brain
>                                          ^^^^^
>                                          mind
>
>Goofed.
>
>Kirby
>
>
-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:18:03 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: highwatermark
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone on this list wastes time
replying to a person who appears to be insane.  We have enough problems as
it is.

At 05:34 PM 8/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 03:56 PM 8/9/98 -0700, Brian Hutchings wrote:
>><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      09-AUG-1998 15:56
>>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>>
>> I'd appreciate it, if you wouldn't use ad hominems, such as
>> my allegedly whacky style of writing;
>
>Your "style" is not a hominem, and if unaffected, then perhaps
>a handicap or disability -- in which case I guess we shouldn't
>make fun (snicker) -- not that I'm any more alien to the "freak
>of nature" charge.  If you're going make use of slings and arrows
>(lots of imports), don't be surprised if you get some return
>incoming.
>
>> no-one seems to be able to quote *exemplars* of my naughty ways, and
>> a lot of them clearly mistake minor formatting quirks o'mine
>
>Lots of "verging on the exclusive" -- a jokers' club with one member.
>If in search of private language, I'd rather find me a Jodie Foster
>(Nell) than a spewing Linda Blair (The Exorcist) -- both you and she
>fond of sliming others (but at least she got paid).
>
>Or could it be that George Bush is a Friend?  Go figure.
>
>> --about such, they never complain, in others' stabs at e-speak--
>> which have *nothing* to do with the language,
>
>Maybe that's the problem right there -- your working hypothesis
>is there's an e-speak.  Some jargon, internet slang, yes, but
>to affect a whole style of wearing-thin vestments -- brands you
>for a clown, a wide-ass (all bottom, no depth).
>
>> classically deployed or usuallyn't (a-hem).
>>    or, wait;
>> did you not make some nonsequiter, about not knowing English,
>
>I can follow... (but your e-speak not that well -- you meet
>your reader less than half way, which is costly, in terms
>of having any).
>
>> but Celtic?...  i thought, you were the purebred Swiss Count of Zero,
>> but if you're using a voice-recognitionware,
>> you should tell!
>>
>
>Paternal lineage Nordic (Sverge), but name traces to Uri (Altdorf,
>straight-arrow Tell), maternal line forks into Irish, Germanic etc.
>All sides proud, though I secretly like the Lightfoot heritage for
>its NavAm flavor.  'Smoke Signals' a worthwhile film.  Many other
>ethnoidal memes waft through this Urner's bones and skulletarium --
>been around a few times (literally twice), 3rd-12th grades mostly
>not in North America. And steeping in the Fuller syllabus is a way
>to "get culture" for sure (lots of great gifts -- eternally grateful).
>
>Kirby
>
>
-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:21:53 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: the forgotten subjectum
In-Reply-To:  <199808112012.NAA01392@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:12 PM 8/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Short comment -- interchanging "brain" and "mind" is dangerous.

Hey, I fixed the error.  Brain is goof-prone, what can I say?

Kirby


>>>  Synergetics, after which we get stark definitions:
>>>
>>>    4D   angle            principles     brain
>>                                          ^^^^^
>>                                          mind
>>
>>Goofed.
>>
>>Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:23:48 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: highwatermark
In-Reply-To:  <199808112018.NAA05771@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 01:18 PM 8/11/98 -0700, Michael Riversong wrote:
>I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone on this list wastes time
>replying to a person who appears to be insane.  We have enough problems as
>it is.
>

Brian isn't insane in my book.  He's a student, and David Koski,
who has met him in person, vouches for his coherence in a public
setting.  If I thought him clinically disabled, I wouldn't chide
him the way I do (he also dishes it out quite a bit, so I assume
he can take it).

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:49:27 -0500
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Scott A. Arvin" <arvin@VIZ.TAMU.EDU>
Organization: Visualization Laboratory
Subject:      Need reference to a Fuller quote
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello all,

I've been trying to find a reference to something Fuller wrote and
can't seem to remember where I read it. He is talking about the
distance our different senses are active. He discusses the rough
maximum distance it is possible for each sense to sense.
Similar to below:

 Touch  .1? inch
 Taste  ?
 Smell  ?
 Sound  100 miles (the speed of wind in the jet stream)
 Sight  millions of light years (it is possible at times to see
        the Andromeda Galaxy with the unaided eye.)

Either in this discussion or somewhere else, he notes that the
artifacts we create allow us to extend the physical limitation of
these senses. For example, the telescope extends our sense of sight
to billions of light years.

I've been looking for these references for quite some time and now
need them for an important paper I'm writing.
Any help is greatly appreciated!

Thanks!
Scott A. Arvin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
arvin@viz.tamu.edu                            Visualization Laboratory
Graduate Student                            Department of Architecture
Langford Rm A-216, 409-845-9431                   Texas A&M University
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:58:36 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Need reference to a Fuller quote
Comments: cc: arvin@viz.tamu.edu
In-Reply-To:  <35D09237.141BD76E@viz.tamu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I've been looking for these references for quite some time and now
>need them for an important paper I'm writing.
>Any help is greatly appreciated!
>
>Thanks!
>Scott A. Arvin

Synergetics volumes has some of this.  Check my
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/links.html for link to
original text on the web, has index.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:36:50 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         gb Earth <glynn@GLYNNBEBEE.ORG>
Subject:      Architectural Tensegrity Analysis
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Re: Tensegrity systems and structural analysis

I'm incorporating a tensegrity system into the structural frame for a large
technology demonstration project in residential architecture.

While I can do a good guess as to structural performance for individual, by
case tensegrities, I was wondering if anyone knows of the best and or
cheapest way to run computer simulations of load performance in
architectural applications.  My experience is with conventional architecture
only.

Specifically, I would like a free solution as we are pursuing non-profit
status for grant-based funding of residential technology demonstrators.

If anyone has leads to follow, please write me at glynn@glynnbebee.org.
Analysis of tensegrities is not my field, but I have a strong desire to spec
them in all written architectural grants for the good of society.

glynn bebee
----------------------
glynn bebee at gb Earth
1003 triphammer road
Ithaca, NY 14850

glynn@glynnbebee.org
www.glynnbebee.org
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:27:02 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         John Belt <belt@OSWEGO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Need reference to a Fuller quote
In-Reply-To:  <35D09237.141BD76E@viz.tamu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        Scott & list subscribers:
        fyi/jb

        The Synergetics Dictionary edited by E.J. Applewhite
contains five entries under the word "distance"

        Page 515
        "Distance is time.  Distance is only frequency-accountable."
        SYNERGETICS draft at Sec. 960.11
        Page 515
        "You need two othernesses with an interval between them in order
        to have a sense of _distance_: otherwise you might just be looking
        at yourself in the mirror.?
        MAGNITUDE AWARENESS, 20 Feb '73
        Page 516
        "Length is _distance_.  distance is measured in time.   Time
        increments are calculated in respect to a variey of cyclic
        regularities manifest in our environmental experiences."
        Citation at TIME, June '66
        Page 516
        See Slower & Closer vs. Faster & Far Apart



..........................................................................
John Belt, Design Faculty         Studio Phone:  315-341-2867 / voice mail
Department of Technology          Office Phone:  315-341-2868
Oswego State University           DEPT FAX-Attn/jb  315-341-3363
Oswego, New York 13126            Home Phone:    315-342-2280
..........................................................................

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Scott A. Arvin wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I've been trying to find a reference to something Fuller wrote and
> can't seem to remember where I read it. He is talking about the
> distance our different senses are active. He discusses the rough
> maximum distance it is possible for each sense to sense.
> Similar to below:
>
>  Touch  .1? inch
>  Taste  ?
>  Smell  ?
>  Sound  100 miles (the speed of wind in the jet stream)
>  Sight  millions of light years (it is possible at times to see
>         the Andromeda Galaxy with the unaided eye.)
>
> Either in this discussion or somewhere else, he notes that the
> artifacts we create allow us to extend the physical limitation of
> these senses. For example, the telescope extends our sense of sight
> to billions of light years.
>
> I've been looking for these references for quite some time and now
> need them for an important paper I'm writing.
> Any help is greatly appreciated!
>
> Thanks!
> Scott A. Arvin
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> arvin@viz.tamu.edu                            Visualization Laboratory
> Graduate Student                            Department of Architecture
> Langford Rm A-216, 409-845-9431                   Texas A&M University
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:55:10 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence E. Couey" <LECouey@INET-1.COM>
Organization: FX Informationing
Subject:      Re: TinkerDomes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I found a page <http://www.med.usf.edu/PUBAFF/news95/1214.html> about
Dorothy Benjamin, who appears to be daughter of the inventor of the
MAKIT toys. The page contained the following information:

   Walter Benjamin gained his first patent as a teenager,
   for a fishing device. In total, he had about 50 patents
   when he died in 1943.

   ³He had one idea after another,² his daughter said.
   ³They didn¹t all prosper by any means.²

   One idea that did prosper was an update of the Tinker
   Toy. Called MAKIT, the toy allowed Miss Benjamin to
   join her father¹s business in Granite City, Ill., and
   turn out boxes of toys.

   She still has the well-crafted deep green metal box
   filled with wooden sticks, wheels, and connectors,
   with its slogan, ³MAKIT with MAKIT.²

   The instruction sheet shows that the family had a
   modern touch: ³MAKIT toys are made for boys and
   girls who like to make things. The number and
   variety of things that can be made is limited only
   by the inventive ability of the child.²

   After her father¹s death in1943, Miss Benjamin and
   her brother took over the company, eventually selling
   it to Playskool.

That's all I've found so far.

Lawrence C.

JustWINK wrote:
> ...
> I have done a bit of searching and have
> not found any reference to the toy or any
> other kits for sale.  Anyone else ever seen
> one?

--

---------------------------------------------
Lawrence E. Couey
 - Convivial Applied Theoretical Technologies/
     FX Informationing
 - mailto:LECouey@INet-1.com
---------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:08:18 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Need reference to a Fuller quote
Comments: To: "Scott A. Arvin" <arvin@VIZ.TAMU.EDU>
Comments: cc: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To:  <35D09237.141BD76E@viz.tamu.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Scott A. Arvin wrote:
> I've been trying to find a reference to something Fuller wrote and
> can't seem to remember where I read it. He is talking about the
> distance our different senses are active. He discusses the rough
> maximum distance it is possible for each sense to sense.
> Similar to below:
>
>  Touch  .1? inch
>  Taste  ?
>  Smell  ?
>  Sound  100 miles (the speed of wind in the jet stream)
>  Sight  millions of light years (it is possible at times to see
>         the Andromeda Galaxy with the unaided eye.)

Synergetics
801.00 Sensoriality: Sweepout

Online reference:
Linkname: 800.00 OPERATIONAL MATHEMATICS
URL: http://www.servtech.com/~rwgray/synergetics/s08/p0000.html

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:38:25 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: highwatermark

MESSAGE from ="List 12-AUG-1998 17:13
 I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone on this list wastes time
 replying to a person who appears to be insane.  We have enough problems as
 it is.

 At 05:34 PM 8/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
 >At 03:56 PM 8/9/98 -0700, Brian Hutchings wrote:
 >><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      09-AUG-1998 15:56
 >>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
 >>
 >> I'd appreciate it, if you wouldn't use ad hominems, such as
 >> my allegedly whacky style of writing;
 >
 >Your "style" is not a hominem, and if unaffected, then perhaps
 >a handicap or disability -- in which case I guess we shouldn't
 >make fun (snicker) -- not that I'm any more alien to the "freak
 >of nature" charge.  If you're going make use of slings and arrows
 >(lots of imports), don't be surprised if you get some return
 >incoming.
 >
 >> no-one seems to be able to quote *exemplars* of my naughty ways, and
 >> a lot of them clearly mistake minor formatting quirks o'mine
 >
 >Lots of "verging on the exclusive" -- a jokers' club with one member.
 >If in search of private language, I'd rather find me a Jodie Foster
 >(Nell) than a spewing Linda Blair (The Exorcist) -- both you and she
 >fond of sliming others (but at least she got paid).
 >
 >Or could it be that George Bush is a Friend?  Go figure.
 >
 >> --about such, they never complain, in others' stabs at e-speak--
 >> which have *nothing* to do with the language,
 >
 >Maybe that's the problem right there -- your working hypothesis
 >is there's an e-speak.  Some jargon, internet slang, yes, but
 >to affect a whole style of wearing-thin vestments -- brands you
 >for a clown, a wide-ass (all bottom, no depth).
 >
 >> classically deployed or usuallyn't (a-hem).
 >>    or, wait;
 >> did you not make some nonsequiter, about not knowing English,
 >
 >I can follow... (but your e-speak not that well -- you meet
 >your reader less than half way, which is costly, in terms
 >of having any).
 >
 >> but Celtic?...  i thought, you were the purebred Swiss Count of Zero,
 >> but if you're using a voice-recognitionware,
 >> you should tell!
 >>
 >
 >Paternal lineage Nordic (Sverge), but name traces to Uri (Altdorf,
 >straight-arrow Tell), maternal line forks into Irish, Germanic etc.
 >All sides proud, though I secretly like the Lightfoot heritage for
 >its NavAm flavor.  'Smoke Signals' a worthwhile film.  Many other
 >ethnoidal memes waft through this Urner's bones and skulletarium --
 >been around a few times (literally twice), 3rd-12th grades mostly
 >not in North America. And steeping in the Fuller syllabus is a way
 >to "get culture" for sure (lots of great gifts -- eternally grateful).
 >
 >Kirby
 >
 >
 -- Michael Riversong
 P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
 Professional Harpist
 Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
 MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      12-AUG-1998 17:38
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 sir, you did not address your vomit
 (but I ducked, reflexively, in any case .-)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:40:02 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: highwatermark

MESSAGE from ="List 12-AUG-1998 17:13
 At 01:18 PM 8/11/98 -0700, Michael Riversong wrote:
 >I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone on this list wastes time
 >replying to a person who appears to be insane.  We have enough problems as
 >it is.
 >

 Brian isn't insane in my book.  He's a student, and David Koski,
 who has met him in person, vouches for his coherence in a public
 setting.  If I thought him clinically disabled, I wouldn't chide
 him the way I do (he also dishes it out quite a bit, so I assume
 he can take it).

 Kirby
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      12-AUG-1998 17:40
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 oh, sorry; I thought,
 he was referring to Sir George of the Golden Circle!

 --The XXXX Files
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:48:44 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Chaos & Incommeasurabilites

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      13-AUG-1998  0:48
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 funny, I always detyermined "indefinitely" int these contexts,
 to refer to "as long as it takes" (4D+?); so,
 wht real difference, in "aritrarily" extensible --
 aren't we just having different tenses & so forth?...
 as we have no "set indefinitude" or preferred extensiveness,
 do we not *simply* require the concept, infinitude?...
 we can assume, the matter of curvature is local, at first.
    as for the observation of self, I ask,
 what about the writing of the Socratic Dialogs?

 as for constructing (scribing) on the surface of the sphere,
 that is just a "classical" use of a classical tool (and
 to find the poles of a GC is superelementary, as I found,
 soon enough, without finding a compasses, although
 I haven't yet recalled; perfectly similar (in most repsects)
 to the planar problem, though somewhat surprising.
    now, just spinning the sphere is fine, but
 requires some elaboration!

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:42:07 -0500
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From:         "Scott A. Arvin" <arvin@VIZ.TAMU.EDU>
Organization: Visualization Laboratory
Subject:      Re: Need reference to a Fuller quote
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Thanks for the replies!
The answer I was looking for is below.

P. O. Box 2321 wrote:
>
> Synergetics
> 801.00 Sensoriality: Sweepout
>
> Online reference:
> Linkname: 800.00 OPERATIONAL MATHEMATICS
> URL: http://www.servtech.com/~rwgray/synergetics/s08/p0000.html
>
> --
>   _________________________________________
>   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
>   | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
>   | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
>   -----------------------------------------
>    http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html

Scott A. Arvin
----------------------------------------------------------------------
arvin@viz.tamu.edu                            Visualization Laboratory
Graduate Student                            Department of Architecture
Langford Rm A-216, 409-845-9431                   Texas A&M University
----------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1998 20:18:15 -0500
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Debra Barr <dbarr@LIVINGSTON.NET>
Subject:      Remove me from this list
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Please do whatever is necessary to remove me from this list.
Debra Barr
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:18:56 -0700
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From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: highwatermark
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

We could get into an interesting discussion about insanity here.  Just like
to make a short comment -- insanity is basically an attempt to destroy
things that don't need to be destroyed.  In this case i keep seeing a wanton
destruction of language, which is why the presence of that guy on this list
is such a hot button for me.  If i could understand what he's trying to say
it might help.  Then again it may not matter.  But i don't consider insanity
to be a clinical disability.  I consider it a spiritual decision to destroy.
I also realize that a lot of contemporary society doesn't agree with that,
and thus wastes tremendous amounts of time on insane people.  I'm on this
list because Fuller was a very constructive person indeed.  His technology
may be an antidote to social insanity.

I'll stop ranting about this and get back to learning more about Bucky's work.

At 01:23 PM 8/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 01:18 PM 8/11/98 -0700, Michael Riversong wrote:
>>I'm having difficulty understanding why anyone on this list wastes time
>>replying to a person who appears to be insane.  We have enough problems as
>>it is.
>>
>
>Brian isn't insane in my book.  He's a student, and David Koski,
>who has met him in person, vouches for his coherence in a public
>setting.  If I thought him clinically disabled, I wouldn't chide
>him the way I do (he also dishes it out quite a bit, so I assume
>he can take it).
>
>Kirby
>
>
-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:37:14 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Remove her from this list!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      13-AUG-1998 21:37
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Hello, this is your Phone Company;
 is this the party to whom I am speaking?
    Oh, Dear!...  Yes....  Uh-huh....  Madam,
 have you considered *other* alternatives
 to having your Phone Service dysinstalled?

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:54:18 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Chaos & Incommeasurability

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      13-AUG-1998 21:54
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 well, as the Nazis dyscovered,
 they (or us, depending upon your chosen clinician) are great
 for experimental work!...  I'd suggest "Jolly" West,
 at UCLA NPI, an alumnus of MK-Ultra, although
 I am not completely sure that he'd agree with your diagnosis,
 without some political motivation.  that is to say,
 as a clinician,
 he'd probably try to *read* what was typed,
 before tagging the "language problem" with a number
 from DSM-IV, as they call it.

 Michael Rieberspiel spake:
  destruction of language, which is why the presence of that guy on this list
  is such a hot button for me.  If i could understand what he's trying to say
  it might help.  Then again it may not matter.  But i don't consider insanity

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:57:18 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: highwatermark

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      13-AUG-1998 21:57
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 oops; this was the correct header for that (this is *clumsy*).
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:22:25 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Chaos & Incommeasurabilities

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      13-AUG-1998 22:22
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 well, that was wrong;
 I was actually, unknowingly *assuming* the scribing of a geodesic (GC)
 on the sphere, in order to bisect the one (though undrawn)
 between the 2 points (any 2 geodesics, perpendicular
 to the sought geodesic, intersect at its poles).  now, since
 I have not *read* Mascheroni,
 it is equally a puzzle, how to bisect a geodesic in the *plane* --
 How do you bisect a straight line segment, using only compasses?
    (the linear geodesic is attinable,
 only by having a pivot "at" infinity, using a large compasses .-)
 given the strictures on the size of the compasses,
 required to scribe a geodesic (GC or equator) in the sphere,
 can we do it?
    another question could be,
 What is the best shape of (a pair of) compasses *inside*
 of the sphere ... for outside of it ... for *both* sides ... and
 "generally" ??
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1998 21:32:37 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Calculus 102

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      14-AUG-1998 21:32
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 In particular, for the unit quaternions which we will mainly be using:

      q-1 = q0 - q (7.5)

 Finally, two definitions will pave the way for the application of
 quaternions to rotations. We note that a unit quaternion can always
 be written in the form

      cosØ + n1sinØ + n2sinØ + n3sinØ. (7.6)

 where n = (n1, n2, n3) is a unit vector. Proof: The magnitude of the
 vector part of the quaternion, q, must be between -1 and 1 (inclusive),
 and so there must be some angle Ø, such that |q| = sinØ. Thus q can
 be written q = |q|n = sinØ n, where n is q normalized. The sum of
 squares of the quaternion components must be |q| = 1, and so q02 = 1
 - |q|2 = 1 -sin2Ø = cos2Ø. ||| Here n is called the axis, the angle, of the
 quaternion. A non-unit quaternion also has an angle and axis, which
 are obtained by normalizing it and computing the angle and axis of
 the resulting unit quaternion.

 http://www.physiology.uwo.ca/TweedWeb/7quaternions.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:22:35 -0700
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Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      !!!HELP???

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      15-AUG-1998 13:22
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 hey, how do I know who's on this effin'list?...
 the "info refcard" --talk about exclusive jargon;
 "who", "whois", "subscribers" didn't work!-- lists commands
 by alphabet, and I finally found "scan", but,
 it is apparently just a rather dumb search.  well,
 I can try "help scan", for laughs.

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1998 13:25:18 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      !!!HELP???

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      15-AUG-1998 13:25
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 that's commands, send to listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu.

 --
 The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:28:47 GMT
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         "j. rinard" <direcconnectNOSPAM@HOTMAIL.COM>
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Subject:      Eliminate Daycare Costs

Eliminate Daycare Costs and raise healthy, happy children with our Christian
based
organization.  24 hour opportunity message 1-800-967-6021 Ext.2393
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 15 Aug 1998 18:41:05 -0600
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@TNC.COM>
Subject:      Engineering a New Architecture
Comments: To: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

<http://www.users.interport.net/~wolf/tony/tony.htm>
Engineering a New Architecture
How new engineering materials and techniques are influencing architectural
design.

>From the book by Tony Robbin, Yale University Press, 1996.

Membranes
Tensegrity
Deployable Structures
Shells
Hybrids
Structural Morphology
(Download (PC) quasicrystal software)
Materials
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1998 16:05:20 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      World News at 11 (A.M. !-)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      16-AUG-1998 16:05
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 [@KPFK: Masters]

 53:1411) TODAY'S NEWS III
 Brian Hutchings                                         16-AUG-19 15:42

  ....Called "World Watch,"
  it'll be produced in London by Indep.Telev.News (ITN) and
  anchored from London by Arther ["Scud Stud"] Kent....Mr.Antoniotti and
  his colleagues are trying to sell the idea, both to underwriters,
  who'll have to provide most of the cost..and to PBS stations,
  whose interest will influece underwriters' interst [sik]....
  "So then I thought...It'd be sort of like listening to the BBC Radio
  on shortwave in the morning....(A check with..Jennings,
  the ABC News anchor, found that most days, he starts the day
  by listening either to the BBC or to "Morning Edition"...)
     Each quarter-hour will include a recap
  of top headlines, followed by a thematic report:
  one featuring profiles of current newsmakers,
  one offering in-depth analysis of one of the day's top stories,
  one spotlighting trends around the world that affect N.America and
  hte last, "World Watch Mirror," reporting
  on how American news events are perceived elsewhere.
     Several anchors were tested...Antoniotti..believed that,
  with so many British-accented reporters, the program needed an anchor
  who did not sound British.  He approached..Kent,
  a Canadian living in London....."Stations won't pay a penny for this,
  so I have to make all the production costs in underwriting.
  To give underwriters reasonable exposure, I'm asking the stations
  to try to work in all four 15-minute segments."

  --"PBS Works on Morning Foreign News" by Lawrie Mifflin,
  27december97 NYTimes
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:53:42 -0700
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From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Geophysical Geodesic Geometry?
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Howdy --

This abstract was found on the Tesla list.  Apparently i'm the only person
who is a member of both Geodesic and Tesla at the moment.  Would very much
appreciate comments on this.  Note the geometric terminology in it, which
has interesting resemblances to Fuller's.  Since my current research is
often in Geobiology, you can imagine how interesting this is to me.  Is
anyone else on this list aware of this particular research?

<<BEGIN CROSS POST:

<http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/itg/ITG/pubs/schultz.schlumberger.1/paper.final.revise
d.html>
A Three-Dimensional Inversion for Large-Scale Structure in a Spherical
Domain
A. Schultz & G. Pritchard
A pre-print of a paper to appear in "Three-Dimensional Electromagnetics",
ed B. Spies and M. Oristigliano, Society of Exploration Geophysicists, SEG
Investigations in Geophysics Series, in press.
       Note: This paper remains the copyright of the author and may not be
duplicated or distributed by any means, electronic or mechanical. Please
use the above reference when citing this publication.
Institute of Theoretical Geophysics, Univ. of Cambridge, Cambridge UK CB2 3EQ
Abstract:
No single one-dimensional mantle-scale electrical conductivity model exists
that is consistent with published sets of globally distributed regional
deep inductive response functions (Schultz 1990; Schultz & Larsen 1990;
Schultz & Semenov 1993). Thus these data sets require the consideration of
three-dimensional global conductivity structures.

Zhang & Schultz (1993) presented the first three-dimensional forward solver
capable of representing arbitrary conductivity distributions in a sphere.
The solution relies on a perturbation method which limits the maximum
lateral gradients in conductivity. More recently, Tarits et al (1995) have
produced an alternative method which includes embedded three-dimensional
heterogeneities through the use of forward and inverse Legendre transforms,
in a system where the EM fields are expressed in a vector spherical
harmonic basis. Everett & Schultz (1995b) have also introduced a new finite
element method based on representing the spherical earth as a solid
polyhedron packed with tetrahedral elements. This makes use of a sparse ILU
decomposition to solve the resulting finite element equations that
determine the Coulomb gauge magnetic and electric potentials.

Developments in adaptive grid generation (Braun & Sambridge 1995) promise
eventually to allow global spherical basis solvers to be applied to
finer-scale exploration problems. Solutions in spherical geometry eliminate
the need to impose boundary conditions on the sides of the model domain, a
significant problem for two- and three-dimensional Cartesian solvers.

While the Tarits & Wahr and the Everett & Schultz forward solvers are both
free from any requirement that lateral heterogeneity must be small, recent
improvements in the original method of Zhang & Schultz have lead both to
improved accuracy of the solution, and also to an approximately one-to-two
orders of magnitude reduction in computational effort.
Such improvements make this forward solver particularly attractive as the
kernel of a practical inverse method. We present here such an inversion
using spectral expansion methods. We make use of new grid generation and
integration techniques on a convex hull in spherical three-space and
exploit the relatively high speed and modest memory requirements of the
Zhang & Schultz spherical basis forward solution.

END CROSS POST>>

-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:53:45 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: A memorable moment...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Somewhere in Synergetics, i believe in Section 600 (not enough time to track
it down further) Bucky stated, if i remember correctly, that it is possible
for a tensegrity line to be "infinitely long and infinitely thin".  This is
NOT a Euclidian line, but based on my Geobiological research, it is a
tensegrity element of many planetary and interstellar structures, and would
serve to explain the existence of so-called "Ley Lines".

At 01:01 PM 8/10/98 -0700, you wrote:
>[a memorable moment on sci.math]
>
>You can restrict my degrees of freedom (confine me to a narrow
>hallway or 10x10 floorspace), but I reject "length without
>breadth" as meaningless, and not necessary for doing geometry
>in "Euclidean space" (a flat beach in ancient Greece).
>
<snip>
>
>[Kirby Urner, Aug 10, 1998]
>
>
-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:11:43 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Geodesic Geophysical [some thing]

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      17-AUG-1998 17:11
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
 ah, "significant problem for 2- and 3-D Cartesian solvers";
 uwing the "packed tetrahedral [finite-grid] elements",
 they appear to be having an inherently "4D" solver, there!...
 those FEM grids have been around for a long while, although
 that's the first I've heard of it used for a whole sphere (not that
 I've been following it FEMs, at all .-)
    in other word, [currents in the seismically-sounded solid mantle is]
 Crappola!

 --The End [of History] Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:13:39 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: A Memorable Moment ...

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      17-AUG-1998 17:13
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 yeah; it's too bad, that "ley lines" are crappola
 (there's that technical term, again !-)

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:15:39 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      "[all about the cycle of glaciation]"

MESSAGE from Brian Hutchings                      07-MAR-90 14:03
 especially to:
 Officer Hernandez (Preparedness)
 Mister Gaines (Water)
 Chief Berardinelli (Fire)

 perusing the City TV schedule on PEN, for this week, I find that
 the summary video o'the holistic conceptual model of Earth's
 life, climate and tectonic systems, is "wiring" this week-end,
   Saturday at 1:00 & 9:30 PM  and
   Sunday   at 2:30 PM.

 this is a good aid for understanding (respectively, of your departments)
 earthquakes, soil water capacity, combustability cycles of vegetation.
 (note: this documentary only scratches the surface of a robust model
 but it is well-worth recording for reference.)
   --bri
---
  0) REPLY   from Fire Department-                     07-MAR-90 16:35
 Thank you for the information regarding the City's TV
 schedule.
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      17-AUG-1998 17:15
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 serendipity-do; that "ley lines" thing was #555 in my box, an
 I hit 55, instead (above).
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:52:59 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: Architectural Tensegrity Analysis
In-Reply-To:  <001801bdc580$ebc9d240$cae096d1@glynn.clarityconnect.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Tensegrity geodesic domes should be thought of as hydraulic
or pneumatic structures when doing stress analysis.

See: 'Synergetics', Chapter 700.00 "Tensegrity"

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
> [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of gb Earth
> Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 1998 4:37 PM
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: Architectural Tensegrity Analysis
>
> Re: Tensegrity systems and structural analysis
>
> I'm incorporating a tensegrity system into the structural frame
> for a large
> technology demonstration project in residential architecture.
>
> While I can do a good guess as to structural performance for
> individual, by
> case tensegrities, I was wondering if anyone knows of the best and or
> cheapest way to run computer simulations of load performance in
> architectural applications.  My experience is with conventional
> architecture
> only.
>
> Specifically, I would like a free solution as we are pursuing non-profit
> status for grant-based funding of residential technology demonstrators.
>
> If anyone has leads to follow, please write me at glynn@glynnbebee.org.
> Analysis of tensegrities is not my field, but I have a strong
> desire to spec
> them in all written architectural grants for the good of society.
>
> glynn bebee
> ----------------------
> glynn bebee at gb Earth
> 1003 triphammer road
> Ithaca, NY 14850
>
> glynn@glynnbebee.org
> www.glynnbebee.org
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1998 03:21:29 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re" Geodesic Geophysical [what ever]

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      19-AUG-1998  3:21
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 first of all, it's important to note that
 the "no boundary conditions" idealization is just that
 -- if my assumption is correct.  I have no text
 on the Finite Element Method, but it seems,
 from occaisional references, to involve a "linked list"
 of "nodes" (conventionally, the latter are often taken
 to be the vertices, I think, although
 they can just as easily be the tetrahedral elements;
 hexahedra are commonly used,
 with obvious lack of parsimomy, in FEMs -- although
 they might have their beneficially spendthrift moments .-)
    it'd be very interesting to know,
 how these tetrahedra are parameterized.

   --The End [of History] Was Nigh!
   http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:28:56 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Ken G. Brown" <kbrown@TNC.COM>
Subject:      Project Earth
Comments: To: GEODESIC@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

<http://www.projectearth.com/>
Adam Trombly
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:30:28 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "P. O. Box 2321" <box2321@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Giasphere International
Comments: To: Synergetics Listserv <Synergetics-L@teleport.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

   Linkname: GAIASPHERE - INTERNATIONAL
        URL: http://clint.aldigital.algroup.co.uk/wpb/gaiint.htm
       Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:54:03 GMT
   Last Mod: Thu, 08 May 1997 17:43:11 GMT

"AN INTERNET ACCESSED MOBILE ISLAND OF INTERCONNECTIVITY

"With the latest communications technology & support from global companies
& foundations

"Assembled within hours from just one crate. With an expandable 23 foot
mobile dome designed by Buckmaster Fuller at its base. Filled with
portable satelitte video conferencing & internet computor equipment.
Instantaneous uplink & downlink capablity. Plugged into all the major
networks including beta testing to new frontiers. A Virtual Reality
Machine linkup. LIKE THE FLIGHT DECK OF THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE ON A 25th
CENTURY MISSION TO PLANET EARTH.

"A navigation system for world peace issues - a GAIASPHERE !"

--
  _________________________________________
  |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
  | (, | /\ | |] | (, | [- | |- | |- | <> |
  | Gg | Aa | Dd | Gg | Ee | Tt | Tt | Oo |
  -----------------------------------------
   http://www.teleport.com/~box2321/go.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1998 05:10:40 -0500
Reply-To:     elemen19@IDT.NET
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Greg Schliessmann <elemen19@IDT.NET>
Subject:      sbscribe, & send info about your ezine
Comments: To: office@jvmarketer.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

Hello,

Please add me to your free ezine.

Also...

I'm creating an electronic book about ezine marketing
(topics like why you should publish your own ezine,
how to build your subscription base, how to advertise
in other ezines, ect).

Would you like to be included in it, for free?

If you'd like to be included, I'll help you sell advertising
in your ezine by listing your ezine in the free e-book. Plus,
if you respond to my message and tell me you want the e-book,
I'll send it to you free, even if you don't accept advertising.

Here's how to be included... simply answer the following
questions and mail it to office@jvmarketer.com. You can mail
it to the address I wrote you from, but I get a lot of email
there... so it would help to write me at office@jvmarketer.com

If you wish to fill out the form via the web, go to:
http://members.xoom.com/jvmarketer/

Here they are:

>Your Name:
>Your Ezine Name:
>Your Website:
>Your Email Subscription Address:
>Your Email For Advertising Info:
>Your Email For Article Submissions:
>Your Personal Email Address:
>Topic Of Your Ezine:
>Circulation:
>As of (what date):
>Cost of Advertising:
>Subscription growth per month:
>Number of ads allowed in each issue:
>Frequency of Ezine:
>Date/Day Ezine Goes Out (i.e., every Friday):
>Do you wish to be added
 to my free weekly ezine,
 Breakthrough Internet Marketing? sure/no way


Okay... that's it. Just fill out this form and email it to
office@jvmarketer.com. I promise it will be worth your while,
because this e-book will be read by thousands of perfect
prospects for your ezine advertising.

Again, once you reply, I will register you to receive my
e-book for free... I'll contact you immediately when it's ready
(probably next week... I have all the articles written; this
is the last thing I need).

Thanks for your time. You'll find it to be worth it.

-- Greg Schliesmann
Publisher, Breakthrough Internet Marketing Weekly
http://www.jvmarketer.com

PS. I saw your ezine at http://www.meer.net/~johnl/e-zine-list/ and
am contacting you after I have most of the other publishers. So
please reply immediately because I want to have this finished
tomorrow night.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:17:56 +0200
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         tom aagdii <aagdii@DDS.NL>
Subject:      windows sort of world study software,
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.980310190317.1417B@fatima.dds.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

to  the gang-pundat, punt.

if you are intrested in my idea and you have time to build this software
please contact me on my email adress bellow. i dont need someone who

i am looking  for someone who likes to explore this ideas.
it may take time, because i am only in the very first stage of collecting
data. please write back only if you have some time, and can program,
and dont look down on someone else ideas.

thanks
M.Tagdi

aagdii@hotmail.com
aagdii@dds.nl
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:47:13 -0500
Reply-To:     spammers.eat.used.kitty.litter.coolbear@earthlink.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Jonathan Thompson
              <spammers.eat.used.kitty.litter.coolbear@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: windows sort of world study software,
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.GSO.3.90.980820181231.6592A-100000@fatima.dds.nl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What are you talking about?  I have no idea! I might even be able to help if I
knew!

Remove the comment about kitty litter to reply!
spammers.eat.used.kitty.litter.coolbear@earthlink.net

> -----Original Message-----
> From: List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
> [mailto:GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of tom aagdii
> Sent: Thursday, August 20, 1998 11:18 AM
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: windows sort of world study software,
>
>
> to  the gang-pundat, punt.
>
> if you are intrested in my idea and you have time to build this software
> please contact me on my email adress bellow. i dont need someone who
>
> i am looking  for someone who likes to explore this ideas.
> it may take time, because i am only in the very first stage of collecting
> data. please write back only if you have some time, and can program,
> and dont look down on someone else ideas.
>
> thanks
> M.Tagdi
>
> aagdii@hotmail.com
> aagdii@dds.nl
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:31:19 EDT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Reg Monroe <REGMONROE@AOL.COM>
Subject:      FINALLY, somewhere to go on Friday night...
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

=09It was nearly a year ago that I posted a note to this ML. At the time =
I was=0Arelatively unaware of the problems associated with attaching a gr=
aphic to my=0Anote. The wise counsel of this ML was to open my own site a=
nd more=0Aappropriately display what I had hoped to post at such a site.
=09It has come up in conversation now and again on this List that present=
 day=0Aapplications of geodesic construction reflect an industry in early=
 infancy.=0AFurther, a similar thread questions why progress in the real =
world toward=0Afostering such an industry seems to be made only slowly. I=
 think part of the=0Aanswer lies in the very nature of a geodesic dome: i=
t=92s a portion of a=0Aspheroid. The geometry does not lend itself to our=
 =91skyscraper=92 mind-set.
=09Great for arena=92s, single family dwellings, theme parks, and other v=
arious=0Asacred structures. But what of the need to place more square foo=
tage than a=0Adome can cover with a =91city block=92 footprint? Suddenly,=
 if we cannot solve it=0A=91geodesically=92 with a dome, must we fall bac=
k to shotgun post-and-beam=0Astructures?  I think perhaps not.
=09For want of a better name I=92ve opened my home page under the title; =
New=0AMillennium Geodesics. The concept here is to present my solution as=
 to how to=0Aget the synergetic benefits of geodesics into multi-storied =
structures.
=09Part of the reason I have taken over twenty years in bringing this wor=
k out=0Ais only recently have I had any inkling as to how to make it all =
work. I=0Adidn=92t like the way floors should be done. Now I=92ve got som=
e basic concepts=0Afor putting multi-story flooring into a geodesic build=
ing that allows for a=0Asynergistic method of suspension.
=09Concepts to bear in mind as you check out the images may be; earthquak=
es,=0Azero G or rotating space environments, underwater and =91aquacultur=
al=92=0Aenvironments, and other =93Science-fictiony=94 scenarios that I h=
ave purposefully=0Aleft off the site as yet.
=09For now, please drop by New Millennium Geodesics at;

                http://www.magusbooks.com/reg/index.html

and, if you wish, please drop me some E-mail at pervious@magusbooks.com w=
ith=0Acomments, suggestions, questions, etc.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:21:09 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: geodesic geophysical [some thing]

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      21-AUG-1998 14:21
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 yo, Harpmeister Rieberspiel [*];
    any more dyscription of that assumed FEM o'geophyique?...
 the assumption appears to be the old Newtonian one,
 actually prenewtonian but blame it on him,
 of heavenly spheres orbitting ballistically, forever
 (God gave them a nudge, and retired to His or Her or Its throne),
 although this paradigm was superceded & preceded by Kepler,
 the first of the modern scientists (in dystinction to Newton,
 "the last of the Magi" as per Keynes look at his papers).
 in other words,
 the isolation of the spherical model unto itself,
 paradoxically referred to as a "no boundary" problem
 in a FEModel, is useful as a first approximation, although false.

 * the Amazonian freshwater dolphins must find this amusing,
 but they're probably getting tired of "Dueling Banjos";
 how'bout some Mozart ?!?

 --The XXXX Files
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:54:26 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Re: (no subject)
Comments: To: REGMONROE@aol.com
In-Reply-To:  <b842cb37.35df8a0f@aol.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Reg,

Your posts to the Geodesic list are getting through.  It takes a while to
look at all the material at your site, so that may explain the lag in any
responses.  Sometimes the list seems a little quiet, but believe me, there
are quite a few people reading it, even though they don't post very often.
You've got some good ideas--you've got some stuff I've never seen
before--and I've been interested in Bucky's ideas since 1970!  I like your
site.  I will be adding it to my "links" section, probably in the "people"
and "domes" sections.  Keep up the good work and thanks for the kind words.

Joe


Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: REGMONROE@aol.com [mailto:REGMONROE@aol.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 22, 1998 8:19 PM
> To: joemoore@cruzio.com
> Subject: (no subject)
>
>
> Joe,
>    Hi, my name is Reg Monroe. I am on the Geo ML and made a post (my 2nd)
> yesterday to the list. Now I cannot seem to get anything from the
> list that is
> new. Do you know, is the ML down?
>    Why am I asking you? Because with all the bickering, at times
> you seem to
> be the voice of reason on this ML. I'm just checking with a
> fellow 'Fullerite'
> that I know to be helpful and one that I know keeps an eye daily
> on the ML.
>    I am anxious to know what is going on because about 9 months
> ago I posted a
> note to the ML with an attached jpg. The response from the
> majority on this
> most criticizing, and at times petty, ML was -Get A Web Site! So I posted
> yesterday to inform the group that I do indeed have a web site, -and
> everything is dead with no new posts as far as I can tell. So I
> cannot tell if
> my post ever reached the group.
>    Just in case I got thrown off the list somehow, my site is at:
>
             http://www.magusbooks.com/reg/index.html

   Check out the site, and if you have time drop me an e-mail to let me know
if I have lost the ML or what you know about it.

   By the way, not that you need strokes, but I applaud your work and hope
things are well with you.

                      With deepest Admiration,

                      Reginald Melvin Monroe
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:18:12 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Science World at Night,
              Vancouver (http://pix.corbis.com/pix.asp?id=MX004672&ke
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01BDCE1A.C057E820"

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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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  Science World at Night, Vancouver

 http://pix.corbis.com/pix.asp?id=MX004672&key=%22geodesic%20dome%22
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BDCE1A.C057E820
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        name="Science World at Night, Vancouver.url"
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        filename="Science World at Night, Vancouver.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=http://pix.corbis.com/pix.asp?id=MX004672&key=%22geodesic%20dome%22
Modified=E024D33A55CEBD01F2

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01BDCE1A.C057E820--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:35:46 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Buckminister Fuller Inventor
              (http://pix.corbis.com/pix.asp?id=BE054969&key=%22
MIME-Version: 1.0
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              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BDCE1D.34969860"

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  New Picture of Bucky:

"Original Caption: 5/2/1934- Pictured above is Buckminister Fuller, inventor
of the Dymaxion, a three wheeled carrier with the appearance of an elong"

 http://pix.corbis.com/pix.asp?id=BE054969&key=%22Buckminster%20Fuller%22

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        name="Buckminister Fuller Inventor.url"
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        filename="Buckminister Fuller Inventor.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=3Dhttp://pix.corbis.com/pix.asp?id=3DBE054969&key=3D%22Buckminster%20=
Fuller%22
Modified=3D40DF308957CEBD01BB

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BDCE1D.34969860--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:54:43 -0400
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Brent A. Verrill" <Bullywug@AMERICA.NET>
Subject:      Re: Science World at Night,
              Vancouver (http://pix.corbis.com/pix.asp?id=MX004672&ke
In-Reply-To:  <000101bdce55$6cb6c020$1f97fea9@oemcomputer>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>  Science World at Night, Vancouver
>
> http://pix.corbis.com/pix.asp?id=MX004672&key=%22geodesic%20dome%22
>Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
>        name="Science World at Night, Vancouver.url"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
>        filename="Science World at Night, Vancouver.url"

I saw this dome in the background of a scene from the season ender of the
X-Files.  I was wondering where it was.  Thanks Joe.

Brent.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:30:16 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Gordon Rumson <rumsong@CADVISION.COM>
Subject:      Fuller and Causality
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Greetings,

I wonder if anyone can offer suggestions about Fuller's ideas on cause and
effect in Onmiverse.  Did he envision a simple chain as in modern science
and Aristotelian philosophy, or did he ideate (!) a wider spectrum of
interactions.

If anyone knows any books where he talks of this I'd appreciate a hint or
suggestion.  Other comments most welcome!

All best wishes,

Gordon
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:13:34 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      Corbis Picture Experience - AltaVista - BETA TEST
              (http://safari.altavista.digi
MIME-Version: 1.0
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              boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDCE97.D56CC1E0"

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        charset="iso-8859-1"
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  Corbis Pics: "geodesic" search = 33 hits


http://safari.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/VP?q=geodesic&LASTQUERY=geodesic
&PAGEMEM=0&WAS=1&corbisq=&image1.x=48&image1.y=7&x=21&y=6

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        name="Corbis Picture Experience - AltaVista - BETA TEST.url"
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        filename="Corbis Picture Experience - AltaVista - BETA TEST.url"

[InternetShortcut]
URL=3Dhttp://safari.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/VP?q=3Dgeodesic&LASTQUE=
RY=3Dgeodesic&PAGEMEM=3D0&WAS=3D1&corbisq=3D&image1.x=3D48&image1.y=3D7&x=
=3D21&y=3D6
Modified=3DA050D4A45DCEBD0151

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=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:46:53 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Subject:      FREE OFFER
Comments: To: tobi@centuryinter.net
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Please send a free "Morf Form" and a Tobi Toys catalog to:

Joe S Moore
850 Park Ave, #3-A
Capitola, CA 95010

Thanks,

(Ref http://www.britestar.net/tobitoys.com/offer.htm)

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:20:29 +07
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Irfan E.Tanjung" <IRFAN151@CYBERLIB.ITB.AC.ID>
Organization: Computer Center ITB
Subject:      Re: off the list

Please remove me from this list.
Thank you.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:52:09 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         27 <dmullins@DOITNOW.COM>
Subject:      Re: (no subject)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I've just been on the list for a few weeks of so, and all I've read is a
bunch of stuff WAY over my head!
Is there anyone out there/in there etc who has some plans or the such for
building your own dome cabin
out house, home, or anything along the Blue collar/do it yourself line?

Do you know what I mean?

Sincerely

Denny

----------
> From: Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: Re: (no subject)
> Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 10:54 PM
>
> Reg,
>
> Your posts to the Geodesic list are getting through.  It takes a while
to
> look at all the material at your site, so that may explain the lag in
any
> responses.  Sometimes the list seems a little quiet, but believe me,
there
> are quite a few people reading it, even though they don't post very
often.
> You've got some good ideas--you've got some stuff I've never seen
> before--and I've been interested in Bucky's ideas since 1970!  I like
your
> site.  I will be adding it to my "links" section, probably in the
"people"
> and "domes" sections.  Keep up the good work and thanks for the kind
words.
>
> Joe
>
>
> Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
> Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
> http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: REGMONROE@aol.com [mailto:REGMONROE@aol.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, August 22, 1998 8:19 PM
> > To: joemoore@cruzio.com
> > Subject: (no subject)
> >
> >
> > Joe,
> >    Hi, my name is Reg Monroe. I am on the Geo ML and made a post (my
2nd)
> > yesterday to the list. Now I cannot seem to get anything from the
> > list that is
> > new. Do you know, is the ML down?
> >    Why am I asking you? Because with all the bickering, at times
> > you seem to
> > be the voice of reason on this ML. I'm just checking with a
> > fellow 'Fullerite'
> > that I know to be helpful and one that I know keeps an eye daily
> > on the ML.
> >    I am anxious to know what is going on because about 9 months
> > ago I posted a
> > note to the ML with an attached jpg. The response from the
> > majority on this
> > most criticizing, and at times petty, ML was -Get A Web Site! So I
posted
> > yesterday to inform the group that I do indeed have a web site, -and
> > everything is dead with no new posts as far as I can tell. So I
> > cannot tell if
> > my post ever reached the group.
> >    Just in case I got thrown off the list somehow, my site is at:
> >
>              http://www.magusbooks.com/reg/index.html
>
>    Check out the site, and if you have time drop me an e-mail to let me
know
> if I have lost the ML or what you know about it.
>
>    By the way, not that you need strokes, but I applaud your work and
hope
> things are well with you.
>
>                       With deepest Admiration,
>
>                       Reginald Melvin Monroe
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:46:21 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Ernie <ega@FASTLANE.NET>
Subject:      Blue collar/do it yourself
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

[Denny wrote]
>I've just been on the list for a few weeks of so, and all I've read is a
>bunch of stuff WAY over my head!
>Is there anyone out there/in there etc who has some plans or the such for
>building your own dome cabin
>out house, home, or anything along the Blue collar/do it yourself line?
There is a world of information on the www. You would be lucky to find many
of the older books about domes but check your libraries.
For starters, try Dave Andersons "geodesic papers" on-line at
http://w3.one.net/~monkey
and my own web pages you can find at http://www.gardendome.com
-Ernie
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:03:28 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Michael Riversong <MRiversong@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject:      Re: Fuller and Causality
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

In parts of "Critical Path" Fuller gets into the idea of each individual as
a cause point.  Very spiritual stuff, there.

As for interactions, the chains of interaction patterns are played out in
the Synergetics volumes.  This would include what most people would term
"effects."

At 11:30 AM 8/23/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>I wonder if anyone can offer suggestions about Fuller's ideas on cause and
>effect in Onmiverse.  Did he envision a simple chain as in modern science
>and Aristotelian philosophy, or did he ideate (!) a wider spectrum of
>interactions.
>
>If anyone knows any books where he talks of this I'd appreciate a hint or
>suggestion.  Other comments most welcome!
>
>All best wishes,
>
>Gordon
>
>
-- Michael Riversong
P.O. Box 2775, Cheyenne, Wyoming 82003 ** (307)635-0900
Professional Harpist
Author of <Design Ecology: Creating Healthy Living Environments>
MRiversong@earthlink.net -- http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:08:34 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      CNN reports on Sudan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

CNN is nowadays rebroadcasting some video reporting filed by
a profesional Israeli journalist of the failed relief efforts
vis-a-vis walking skeleton families in the Sudan.

Sectarian battles between warring ideologies marginalize most
humans as mere "extras", background for the "glorious heroics"
of armed protagonists.

Oblivious numbskulls with guns and ideology = holocaust conditions
for players not judged relevant to God's plan (the "uncast" aka
"meek"). An old story.

Global U engineers looking for better infrastructure solutions
are storyboarding some rather large refugee and resettlement
facilities available as needed on a quasi-permanent basis.

Bringing evacuees to facilities designed for this purpose will
be logistically simpler in many cases -- more to the point than
trying to ad hoc some primitive centers on site, which centers
all too often end up merely overseeing a mass burial process.

In the Sudan situation, we lack airstrips and have to contend
with armed gangs using checkpoints to control turf (the usual
pattern). Evacuation would require establishing a perimeter and
helicoptering evacuees to other transport at a safe distance --
the construction of emergency airstrips is also a possibility,
given the right earth moving equipment is helicoptered in.

The goal is to extract the "extras" from storylines holding
approximately zero promise and to enroll them in the global U
via more professional caregiving gateways.

The monkey-brained overspecialize committed to wasteful, heedless,
armed conflict scenarios and dumbed-down technologies for addressing
human tragedy will have options to enroll in remedial ed programs,
or to gravitate into more responsible global U admin positions if
qualified (many with career paths in military logistics/operations
will have, have had, no problem smoothly switching gears).

Kirby
4D Solutions
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/

For further reading:

http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gstuniv.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/pr.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gst2.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bosnia.html

Note:  Urner is a former tech support operative with CUE, NGO management
hub for REEP (Refugee Early Employment Program) based in Portland, Oregon.
He currently writes curriculum for the OCN (www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn),
a distance education arm of the Fuller School, a school of thought named
for R. Buckminster Fuller -- see www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bio.html for
more re RBF.  He is also a member of the Religious Society of Friends.



---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:32:31 -0400
Reply-To:     monkey@one.net
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         David Anderson <monkey@ONE.NET>
Organization: Flying Monkey Software
Subject:      Re: (no subject)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Try my home page. It ought to get you started and give you some good
background...

- Dave Anderson  monkey@one.net  http://w3.one.net/~monkey

27 wrote:

> I've just been on the list for a few weeks of so, and all I've read is a
> bunch of stuff WAY over my head!
> Is there anyone out there/in there etc who has some plans or the such for
> building your own dome cabin
> out house, home, or anything along the Blue collar/do it yourself line?
>
> Do you know what I mean?
>
> Sincerely
>
> Denny
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:25:43 -0700
Reply-To:     oregon@domes.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Oregon Dome <oregon@DOMES.COM>
Organization: Oregon Dome
Subject:      Re: Cabins, Out Houses, Homes!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Denny,

There's a whole mess of us on this list just waiting for someone to ask
this question!

We produce panelized dome kits.  You can order some complimentary
information from us right off our web site.

We won't help you build all of the triangles yourself, but if you do
want to do a project and have us supply the shell, we're happy to do
it.  If you visit the "Raising" page of our web site, you'll see what
we're up to and what we provide in glorious living color pictures of a
few of the recent dome raisings that we have conducted.

Please feel free to drop me a note with any questions that you might
have (or even better, post it to the list so that we can answer a lot of
other people's questions).  You can also call us, if what you see gets
you interested, at (800) 572-8943.

27 wrote:
>
> I've just been on the list for a few weeks of so, and all I've read is a
> bunch of stuff WAY over my head!
> Is there anyone out there/in there etc who has some plans or the such for
> building your own dome cabin
> out house, home, or anything along the Blue collar/do it yourself line?
>
> Do you know what I mean?
>
> Sincerely
>
> Denny
>
> ----------
> > From: Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
> > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> > Subject: Re: (no subject)
> > Date: Saturday, August 22, 1998 10:54 PM
> >
> > Reg,
> >
> > Your posts to the Geodesic list are getting through.  It takes a while
> to
> > look at all the material at your site, so that may explain the lag in
> any
> > responses.  Sometimes the list seems a little quiet, but believe me,
> there
> > are quite a few people reading it, even though they don't post very
> often.
> > You've got some good ideas--you've got some stuff I've never seen
> > before--and I've been interested in Bucky's ideas since 1970!  I like
> your
> > site.  I will be adding it to my "links" section, probably in the
> "people"
> > and "domes" sections.  Keep up the good work and thanks for the kind
> words.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> > Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
> > Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
> > http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: REGMONROE@aol.com [mailto:REGMONROE@aol.com]
> > > Sent: Saturday, August 22, 1998 8:19 PM
> > > To: joemoore@cruzio.com
> > > Subject: (no subject)
> > >
> > >
> > > Joe,
> > >    Hi, my name is Reg Monroe. I am on the Geo ML and made a post (my
> 2nd)
> > > yesterday to the list. Now I cannot seem to get anything from the
> > > list that is
> > > new. Do you know, is the ML down?
> > >    Why am I asking you? Because with all the bickering, at times
> > > you seem to
> > > be the voice of reason on this ML. I'm just checking with a
> > > fellow 'Fullerite'
> > > that I know to be helpful and one that I know keeps an eye daily
> > > on the ML.
> > >    I am anxious to know what is going on because about 9 months
> > > ago I posted a
> > > note to the ML with an attached jpg. The response from the
> > > majority on this
> > > most criticizing, and at times petty, ML was -Get A Web Site! So I
> posted
> > > yesterday to inform the group that I do indeed have a web site, -and
> > > everything is dead with no new posts as far as I can tell. So I
> > > cannot tell if
> > > my post ever reached the group.
> > >    Just in case I got thrown off the list somehow, my site is at:
> > >
> >              http://www.magusbooks.com/reg/index.html
> >
> >    Check out the site, and if you have time drop me an e-mail to let me
> know
> > if I have lost the ML or what you know about it.
> >
> >    By the way, not that you need strokes, but I applaud your work and
> hope
> > things are well with you.
> >
> >                       With deepest Admiration,
> >
> >                       Reginald Melvin Monroe

--
Thanks,

Nathan Burke,
Oregon Dome, Inc.

E-mail:  oregon@domes.com
Web:  http://www.domes.com
Address:  3215 Meadow Lane, Eugene OR  97402
Fax:  (541) 689-9275
Phone:  (800) 572-8943 or (541) 689-3443
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:32:44 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
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Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/

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=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:50:27 -0600
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Dennis Johnson <djohnson@NATURALSPACESDOMES.COM>
Organization: Natural Spaces Domes
Subject:      Re: Dome Cabins, outhouses and homes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Denny@27 <dmullins@DOITNOW.COM> wrote:
>
> I've just been on the list for a few weeks of so, and all I've read is a
> bunch of stuff WAY over my head!
> Is there anyone out there/in there etc who has some plans or the such for
> building your own dome cabin
> out house, home, or anything along the Blue collar/do it yourself line?
>
> Do you know what I mean?




Dear Denny

There are several dome home companies that ply the
postings of the Dome Home List waiting to remind people
they exist.  Natural Spaces Domes is one of them.

We do cater to the owner builder dome market.   We try to
make our dome system easy to understand and easy to build.
We will sell just the connection hardware system and you
buy your own lumber, follow our detailed plans and end up
with your own engineered dome shell.

Or, you can buy our complete prefabricated dome system
with related building components.

You can check out our web site
http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com
You may read about a dome project near you.

or send us your snail mail address for extensive detailed info
info@naturalspacesdomes.com

or call us at 1-800-733-7107

Yes, we know what you mean.
Thanks
Dennis Odin Johnson
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:20:54 GMT
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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One typo fixed... KU

================

X-From_: owner-quaker-p@yang.earlham.edu  Mon Aug 24 14:13:27 1998
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:08:35 -0700
Reply-To: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Sender: Quaker peace and social justice issues <QUAKER-P@earlham.edu>
From: Kirby Urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan
X-To:         synergetics-l@teleport.com
X-To: QUAKER-P@yang.earlham.edu

T.-

I agree with this definition from SI, e.g. meant my "ideology" to most
definitely include so-called "religious ideology" -- a category many
ideologues routinely filter, leaving "ideology" to the "politically
minded" -- that church vs. state thing meaning "religion" is always
in a separate compartment (a style of thought utterly alien to many
traditions).[1]

The tie to Marx-Engles isn't impossible even within this context
however, e.g. according to synergetics (a philosophy, and therefore
also a special case system according SI), human experience may be
considered 'abberational' or 'off-center' vis-a-vis the eternal
principles.  Ideation, including heartbeat (frequency phenomenon) is
defined as "after image" in order to associate our human centers
environment (aka Universe) with "lag" (time, temporeality).  Reality
is special case, only the generalization is eternal.[2]

In any case, I don't purport to "rise above" ideology when lobbing
my epithets (e.g. "monkey-brained") at ideologues with a different
spin on stuff -- just seizing the so-called "high ground" (with the
best comprehensivist perspective) for those global university engineers
nowadays brainstorming realistic, science-minded, mathematically well-
informed solutions that will recast "extras" in more intelligently
designed scenarios.

Ideologies which do no more than posit an "after life" while encouraging
quiet passivity and/or resigned acceptance of the status quo, while
surrendering the world stage to politically-backed armed gangs who
consider stardom to be theirs at the expense of civilian innocents, are
corrupt, inauthentic, damnable trash in the eyes of any curriculum god
I'd be willing to sit at the feet of.

I fully realize that many engaged in armed conflict do so out of love
for those they cherish, who may be threatened, or have already been
killed.  My evacuation centers are designed to extract noncombatants
from the cross-fire and leave the professional killers to do their
business without suffering that additional burden, knowing that
monkey-brains who attack the unarmed or quasi-helpless (indulge in
terrorism against civilians) will not have such easy targets in
future.

In the longer term, my hope is to sufficiently remove underlying causes
of armed conflict to allow the professional killers to retire with a
sense of satisfaction that their skills will likely not be necessary
in coming generations given our improved intelligence networks which
form a first line of defense, and if properly operative, will handle
almost all conflicts at the psychological level (warfare of another
kind perhaps, but not so brutally physical, and possibly even instructive
if waged with intelligence and care -- a style of combat not inconsistent
with my own faith and practice as a Friend).[3]

Kirby

[1] SI = Systematic Ideology
    See: http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/3735/index.html
[2] Synergetics 529.09, 531.03, 543.14, 986.814, 1031.16, 1032.21
[3] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/myfriends.html

At 12:26 PM 8/24/98 -0700, -T. wrote:
>On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Kirby Urner wrote:
>> Oblivious numbskulls with guns and ideology = holocaust conditions
>> for players not judged relevant to God's plan (the "uncast" aka
>> "meek"). An old story.
>
>A core suggestion of systematic ideology is that all human experience is
>ideology.  Ideology as 'false consciousness' or 'bad ideas' comes from
>Marx and Engles; s.i. suggests all thought, all deliberate actions, all
>'unconscious' processes (including heartbeat & breath), memory, sense of
>time - all human experiences - are ideological.  Some closer to what might
>be 'true' than others, some closer to 'useful' as well.  But using
>'ideology' as 'false' is Marxist.
>
>Which is a fine thing to be, mind you.  Just bringing up an s.i. specific
>definition of the word.  The s.i. definition leads to other thoughts, as
>the Dymaxion map leads to other thoughts.
>
>-T.
>


---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
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Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:37:49 GMT
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Subject:      Memo to HS & JHS syngeom trainers (archival)
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FROM ARCHIVES:

Keywords: flatland (beyond), five-fold symmetry, pentacle, Crowley,
spatial geometry, Euclid, tetrahedron, synergetics, concentric
hierarchy, occult (not), Bill Nye the Science Guy, OMSI, NASA

============

[MATHEDCC] re implementing a Beyond Flatland
curriculum

Kirby Urner (pdx4d@teleport.com)
Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:15:55 -0700

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MEMORANDUM
June 15, 1998

FR: Kirby Urner, teacher trainer, 4D Solutions, Oregon
TO: HS and JHS math/geometry teachers (in Oregon especially)
RE: implementing a 'Beyond Flatland' curriculum

As advertised at my "shingle" page, I'm into moving my students
"Beyond Flatland" into spatial geometry early, then coming back
to the more traditional Euclidian demonstrations as "scribed
in the sand on a beach" with the planetary context already
firmly in view.[1]

Towards this end (of moving beyond flatland) I use the still
little-known "concentric hierarchy" of nested polyhedra.[2]

Although nested polyhedra have a venerable tradition, comprise
an important thread in many cultures east and west, their use
today might be disturbing to some parents worried about
"occult" influences.[3] So a first step in some classrooms may
be to hook in an appropriate, non-polarizing aesthetics, such
as Bill Nye the Science Guy's (which some object to for other
reasons -- jumps around too much, too "Pee Wee's Playhouse").

If parents approach you with concerns about "the occult", point
out that the flatlander curriculum currently in vogue is just
as overrun by pentacles (flat) and other Crowley-type insignia,
that five-fold symmetry in a volumetric context is not
necessarily the root of the problem, and that kids with spatial
fluency are far better equipped for all the exciting design-
related jobs in our Silicon Forest (CAD-based, a lot of them).

In some communities it might work to point out that you're getting
a lot of this material from an American inventor awarded the
Medal of Freedom by president Ronald Reagan -- it all depends
on the demographics in your region.[4]

Presuming you can get free of sticky issues (cultural ectoplasm
has a way of keeping teachers mired in the past), you'll next
want to get some actual polyhedra showing up in your
classroom. The time-honored approach (and a good one) is to
have kids make these themselves, either alone or in groups or
both. What you will need to start are:

Tetrahedron (aka tetra or tet for short)
Cube <-- face diagonal = tetra edge
Octahedron <-- same edge as tetra
Icosahedron <-- same edge as tetra
Cuboctahedron <-- same edge as tetra

Important to make the cube have a face *diagonal* equal to the
tetra's edge, such that two interpenetrating tets (points
sticking out one another's faces) define this cube's eight
corners, with two sets of 6 edges per tet criss-crossing at the
cube's face centers.[5] This is old news to nested polyhedra
people (e.g. Kepler) which is no excuse to bleep over it.

Next you'll want some ping pong balls and maybe some old
(cut-upable) texts re crystallography -- doesn't matter if the
math in these latter is way above your students' level, as
we're just looking for interesting pictures.

Glue 6 ping pong balls in a "wheel" around a central one of a
different color (you can usually find day-glow green or orange
ping pong balls), then glue together 2 sets of 3 balls to make
triangles. Show how you can "sandwich" the 7-ball "hexagon"
between the two triangular sets (by nesting balls in valleys),
such that the top triangle balls line up over the lower ones
(hexagonal close-packing or hcp) or don't (face-centered cubic
or fcc) -- find corresponding pictures in your crystal book,
cut out and scan for web page (students learning HTML) if
scanner available (I appreciate getting all such URLs).

Show how you can make a tetrahedron by nesting one ball atop
one of your triangular groups -- identify this with the
tetrahedron constructed of paper, straws, clay, wood or
whatever.[6]

Show how the 12 balls around 1 (day-glow) in the fcc
arrangement define a cuboctahedron -- identify this with the
cuboctahedron constructed above as well.

You are now set to do sections on space-filling (cubes alone,
octahedra with tetrahedra, octahedra with cuboctahedra -- but
not icosahedra, nor tetrahedra by themselves), duals
(tetrahedron dual of itself, cube of octahedron), and
rotational symmetry (turning shapes around axes and noting
self-congruence at certain "click-stop" points).

As for the nested polys, you've got the 2 tets interpenetrating
to make a cube, an octahedron with the cube touching its
mid-edges, and a cuboctahedron with octahedron tips at the
centers of its square faces.[7] The respective volumes of
these shapes is:

Tetrahedron: 1
Cube: 3
Octahedron: 4
Cuboctahedron: 20

As for the icosahedron, you'll want to invest in one of those
"vector flexor" devices (or build one yourself, or with
students -- somewhat labor intensive but I've done it with 6th
graders). This device shows how a cuboctahedron may be
rotationally contracted into an icosahedron of same edge
lengths. Its volume is incommensurable vis-a-vis the above,
weighing in at about 18.51...

In a more advanced class, you'll want to invest in a rhombic
dodecahedron (dual of cuboctahedron) with long face diagonals =
tetra edge (volume 6). These fill space as "cells" with fcc
spheres inside, just "kissing" (technical term) through the
face centers.[8]

If your kids respond to this material and seem to wish deeper
explorations, by all means go for the A & B modules (4-fold
symmetry) and T mods (5-fold symmetry).[9] The difficulty here
is primarily the shortage of relevant curriculum supplies, and
few classrooms with the necessary computer power.

If you have further questions about moving "beyond flatland" in
your high school or junior high school, feel free to email or
post questions. If you're in Oregon, check out my availability
and email the bookkeeper if you'd like me to drop by. Again,
my aesthetics are more NASA's than occult, futuristic, not dark
ages. As a kid, OMSI pretty much defined my religion (Oregon
Museum of Science and Industry -- where I'm headed in a few
minutes, once my 4-year-old has finished her lunch).

For a better overview of the concentric hierarchy and its place
in the curriculum, see my "Beyond Flatland: Geometry for the
21st Century" at http://www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/ocn/urner.html

=========================

Notes:

[1] http://members.xoom.com/Urner/working6.html -- note, I
support USA VP Al Gore's proposal to put a hidef TV webcam at
L1, aimed at the sunny side of Earth and transmitting in
real time.

[2] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/volumes.html

[3] justifiably in many cases, as teenagers often conjure up
whatever cultural aesthetics appear most disturbing to parents,
as a way of asserting independence from what to young eyes may
appear a corrupt and arbitrary authoritarian regime -- again,
varies greatly from one household to the next, and the rage may
not even be at parents per se, but at some nebuluos "ruling
caste" of community elders (I can only speak to some situations
from personal experience -- don't proclaim blanket authority)

[4] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/bio.html

[5] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/volumes.html#cube

[6] A good way to make polys is with party straws and fuzzy
pipeclearners with folded ends wadded into the openings (thanks
to Karl Erickson for this suggestion)

[7] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quadshapes.html -- towards
middle of paper (includes rhombic dodeca in blue)

[8] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/ivm.html

[9] http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/modules.html

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---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:36:53 GMT
Reply-To:     wolfbat359@mindspring.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Donald L Ferry <wolfbat359@MINDSPRING.COM>
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises, Inc.
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan

pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:

>
>CNN is nowadays rebroadcasting some video reporting filed by
>a profesional Israeli journalist of the failed relief efforts
>vis-a-vis walking skeleton families in the Sudan.
>
>Sectarian battles between warring ideologies marginalize most
>humans as mere "extras", background for the "glorious heroics"
>of armed protagonists.
>
>Oblivious numbskulls with guns and ideology = holocaust conditions
>for players not judged relevant to God's plan (the "uncast" aka
>"meek"). An old story.

Well the Islamic Government of the Sudan has been carrying out a
Genocidal war against the Negroid Animists and Christians of Southern
Sudan.  I think that goes much further than 'Sectarian battles between
warring ideologies marginalize' people!
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:02:55 -0500
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From:         Gregory Burns <gburns19@MAIL.IDT.NET>
Organization: IDT (Best News In The World)
Subject:      reshingling my dome
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Hello Group, I will be reshingling my dome west of Minneapolis and was
looking for any guidelines or techniques to be mindful of.  A contractor
would be nice but since we've had a rash of severe weather including
tornados in the area a good roofer is out of the question so I will be
doing it myself.  Thanks for any direction or help.  Greg
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:35:53 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Fuller and Causality

MESSAGE from ="List 25-AUG-1998  4:38
 Greetings,

 I wonder if anyone can offer suggestions about Fuller's ideas on cause and
 effect in Onmiverse.  Did he envision a simple chain as in modern science
 and Aristotelian philosophy, or did he ideate (!) a wider spectrum of
 interactions.

 If anyone knows any books where he talks of this I'd appreciate a hint or
 suggestion.  Other comments most welcome!

 All best wishes,

 Gordon
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      25-AUG-1998  5:35
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 does _Posthumous Scenario_ cover any of this, or
 is it just the Big Book o'Composting?
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:52:49 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan

MESSAGE from =wolfbat359@mindspring.com 25-AUG-1998  4:38
 pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:

 >
 >CNN is nowadays rebroadcasting some video reporting filed by
 >a profesional Israeli journalist of the failed relief efforts
 >vis-a-vis walking skeleton families in the Sudan.
 >
 >Sectarian battles between warring ideologies marginalize most
 >humans as mere "extras", background for the "glorious heroics"
 >of armed protagonists.
 >
 >Oblivious numbskulls with guns and ideology = holocaust conditions
 >for players not judged relevant to God's plan (the "uncast" aka
 >"meek"). An old story.

 Well the Islamic Government of the Sudan has been carrying out a
 Genocidal war against the Negroid Animists and Christians of Southern
 Sudan.  I think that goes much further than 'Sectarian battles between
 warring ideologies marginalize' people!
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      25-AUG-1998  5:52
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 here's another Famous Big Lie:
 Hitler was the Lone Nut of WW2!...  the fact that
 Kirby buys into the "fundamentalist" tirade,
 that has been nearly sole-sourced by "Christitan Solidarity
 Intl.", led by the "low church" fundie & former head
 of the "Overseas Economic Development Council",
 formerly the Colonial Office, Baroness Cox,
 could be a clue (or just a nasty co-inky-dink .-)

 thus quoth:
  Well the Islamic Government of the Sudan has been carrying out a
  Genocidal war against the Negroid Animists and Christians of Southern
  Sudan.  I think that goes much further than 'Sectarian battles between
  warring ideologies marginalize' people!

 it's stuff like this, makes me worry, having just read that
 Chelsea want to a Friends highschool -- wha'd'y'smokin'?!?...
 I sure wish, though, that President Dad'd obeyed the strategem
 of his lawyer, if not just firing that blackhole, Starr!

 twice-quoth:
  >Oblivious numbskulls with guns and ideology = holocaust conditions
  >for players not judged relevant to God's plan (the "uncast" aka
  >"meek"). An old story.

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:31:23 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan
In-Reply-To:  <35e20697.2007087@news.mindspring.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 12:36 AM 8/25/98 GMT, Donald L Ferry wrote:
>Well the Islamic Government of the Sudan has been carrying out a
>Genocidal war against the Negroid Animists and Christians of Southern
>Sudan.  I think that goes much further than 'Sectarian battles between
>warring ideologies marginalize' people!
>

I don't.  "Islamic" "Animist" and "Christians" -- sounds
sectarian to me.  Just more warring, mostly clueless
ideologues in this picture.

Kirby
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:49:07 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan
In-Reply-To:  <199808251252.FAA04041@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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> here's another Famous Big Lie:
> Hitler was the Lone Nut of WW2!...  the fact that
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Which nobody buys, that I know.  You fight straw men perhaps.
How noble and brave of you.  The same Nazi-like nuttiness
pervades the world today, including in "high places" as we all
know.

> Kirby buys into the "fundamentalist" tirade,
> that has been nearly sole-sourced by "Christitan Solidarity
> Intl.", led by the "low church" fundie & former head
> of the "Overseas Economic Development Council",
> formerly the Colonial Office, Baroness Cox,
> could be a clue (or just a nasty co-inky-dink .-)
>

Dunno much about these ideologies.  Urnerism = Quakerism + Fullerism.

>  thus quoth:
>  Well the Islamic Government of the Sudan has been carrying out a
>  Genocidal war against the Negroid Animists and Christians of Southern
>  Sudan.  I think that goes much further than 'Sectarian battles between
>  warring ideologies marginalize' people!
>
> it's stuff like this, makes me worry, having just read that
> Chelsea want to a Friends highschool -- wha'd'y'smokin'?!?...
> I sure wish, though, that President Dad'd obeyed the strategem
> of his lawyer, if not just firing that blackhole, Starr!
>

Why bring Chelsea and the Friends into this.  That wasn't me (the
Friend) you were quoting.  Gapes in yer "logic", as per usual.  I've
had briefings re Sudanese situation from Peace Church types on the
scene, sure.  I don't doubt we've had a curriculum meltdown -- like,
if you don't know what A & B modules are, you shouldn't be in
government (obviously).

> twice-quoth:
>  >Oblivious numbskulls with guns and ideology = holocaust conditions
>  >for players not judged relevant to God's plan (the "uncast" aka
>  >"meek"). An old story.
>

Oh, that's right -- you quote on ahead by your own convention.  So is
this what worries you, that I'm scrambling to recast the uncast in
scenarios that make more sense?  I define my brand of liberal Friend
via one of the linked essays by the way -- no need to wildly speculate
as to where I'm coming from.

I'm just giving free rein to my competetive, capitalist spirit.
If you're a self-identified Christian but don't push for humanity
to "snap out of it" and regain some self-respect (because you're
insufficiently schooled no doubt), then you're in the same category
as a self-identified Muslim or Animist (does anyone self-identify
as an "animist"? -- seems one of those goofy whiteman labels from
the imperio-anthro department), similarly uninspired.

Lots of self-identified pagans, athiests, subgeniuses and the like
in my network.  What brings us together is a focus on much-needed
infrastructure and a willingness to give it our best shot.  Would
seem a hellish move to turn away from the game and this point,
especially given we're winning, big time.

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:33:27 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Sudan Must Die!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      25-AUG-1998 14:33
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 well, that's the say-so from "Xians R We", although
 it's holy questionable;
 the reporters from the Baltmore Sun admitted (to us,
 I think) that they could easily have been hoaxed
 by Cox and CSI, on their "Arabic slavery" series.  as
 it turns-out, they were buying the "slave"
 on SPLA territory, and the guy they were handing the money,
 said he couldn't do it, else where.
    the truth is that there is an ongoingly blacked-out process
 of peace, seeing tat you-all are totally clueless about it;
 it is a fully constitutional one, complete with referenda
 on the South to secede, although Garang continues to pull-out
 (Khartoum has declared a ceasefire, last I heard.
 what is also underreported, is the intensive incursions
 by marcherlord Museveni's Ugandan troops, although
 he is somewhat busy, now, in Zaire, trying
 to roust that he used as his frontman, because
 he turned against the "Greater Tutsiland" policy.)

 --The End Was Night!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:43:40 GMT
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Organization: 4D Solutions
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan
MIME-Version: 1.0
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wolfbat359@mindspring.com (Donald L Ferry) wrote:

>Well the Islamic Government of the Sudan has been carrying out a
>Genocidal war against the Negroid Animists and Christians of Southern
>Sudan.  I think that goes much further than 'Sectarian battles between
>warring ideologies marginalize' people!

Sounds like more sad sectarianism to me -- as does your spin.
Little kids are less programmed, that's for sure.  To enter the
Kingdom of Heaven, you may need to check your obsolete and
misconditioning religion at the door ("know-it-alls" sometimes
have a hard time with that -- so much invested in "the wrong
stuff").

Kirby

---------------------------------------------------------
Kirby T. Urner  http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/kirby.html
4D Solutions    http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  [PGP OK]
---------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:30:38 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      25-AUG-1998 15:30
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 you are certainly correct about the animist,
 as a "goofy [British Israelite] label
 from the imperio-anthro department";
 that was my main point, re "former" colonies in the "commonwealth",
 but they also like to use it against the few
 that actually gave Them they're walking-papers,
 like Sudan; hence, the totalitarian (one-sided) reportage
 from Reuters et al, including their outlets at NPR, PRI etc. --
 maybe "you" are winning, in Your Royal Bigtime Mindset!

 thus quoth:
  this what worries you, that I'm scrambling to recast the uncast in
  scenarios that make more sense?  I define my brand of liberal Friend

 I may also add, Ted Turner is a nasty lover of nasty oligarchs,
 as per his last project, using Teddy Roosevelt's own words,
 to paint the hagiograph of the "rought riders".  (in another vein
 with possibly as many trackmarks,
 I just heard a review of new TV shows on NPR,
 with one from CBS, parodying Lincoln as a dumb-ass bumbler,
 who was given his programme by his Black, British "Bensonite" Butler,
 which is not only ludicrous [*], it's probably going to be a Big Lie,
 unless they drop some well-needed rhetorical bombs.
    as for your suggestion that no-one you know believes,
 Hitler Did It, Alone, I am somewhat surprised;
 who do they say, did?...  it's a rhetorical question, Kirby;
 there are no bad people, only bad actors!...  seriously (for me,
 anyway), I had just heard another piece of populist drek
 on the Pubic Radio, which did not shed a hair to the Left
 or the Right of this phoney-baloney "history" of WW2
 --the self-described historian "shaking" over the sheer "evil",
 of finding Hitler's Yarmulkeh, or what ever (he was Jewish,
 I think, he said, himself; nevermind)--
 I mean, *you* know about Harriman and Bush [**], but I gather that
 you're keeping yo'mouth shut; eh?

 * _The Civil War and the American System (America's Battle
 with Britain)_ by Alan Salisbury (EIR'92) [800/453-4108]

 **
 http://www.tarpley.net

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:44:11 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: CNN ad vomitorium

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      25-AUG-1998 15:44
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 36:712) GOVERNMENT FOREIGN POLICY
 Brian Hutchings                                         21-AUG-19 13:57

  nothing t'do with "intelligence";
  I just had heard on Talk of the City (KPCC) the guy
  from USInst.for Peace, without reference to the fact that
  they were one of the Orwellian outfits,
  that were calling for all-out, US-backed war against Khartoum,
  in favor of the sole-hold-outs in the ongoing peace-process,
  John Garang, along with Susan Rice at State, and
  Roger Winter of USRefugge Inst. (?), all calling
  for the overthrow of the muslims, based upon bogus reports
  from "Christian" Solidarity Intl.and Times-Mirror (Baltimore Sun),
  coutesy of Baroness Cox.
     these things were routinely reported across the board,
  as far as i saw it (Pacifica, NPR, BBC, Times et al).

  on the bright side,
  Russia has called a debt-moratorium!

  --The Duke of Oil
  http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:00:06 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan
In-Reply-To:  <199808252230.PAA06980@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
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Archival: memory dump of www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/introen.html

===================
                       Synergetics on the Web:
                             Endnotes

1. The Phase Rule (book citation goes here)

2. Fuller's visual metaphor cannot be taken as a literal depiction
of the actual chemical bonding in solids, liquids and gases, which
is of course complicated and variable.

3. The rhombic dodecahedron and cuboctahedron are duals, as are the
octahedron and cube -- all members of the concentric hierarchy and
with simple, whole-number volumes relative to the unit-volume
tetrahedron.

4. "World Gaming discloses that humanity will perish on this planet
if the sovereignty of nations is not abandoned and if the World Game's
world-around computerized time-energy accounting is not forthwith
inaugurated. The first step in bringing about the desovereignization
will be the closing of the gaps in the world electric power grid.
The world-unifying electric power accounting will be the beginning
of the omnienergy accounting for world economic management. "
-- Critical Path (St. Martin's Press, 1981), pg. 203 [back]

5. "One of my earliest books was Nine Chains to the Moon, written
in 1935 and published by Lippincott in July 1938, and now being
published by Doubleday. In it I referred so frequently to Finance
Capitalism that I developed a contraction of those two words into
FINCAP. FINCAP had died a lingering death between 1929 and 1934.
In this book, Critical Path, I refer so often to the lawyer-resurrected
"capitalism" that it is appropriate to refer henceforth to LAWCAP.
LAWCAP's "capitalism" is paradoxically the most highly socialized
organization in all history -- the citizens of LAWCAP's welfare-
state -- the whole body of corporate stockholders -- having an
annual average dole of $100,000 per capita without their even having
to make a pretense of getting a job." -- Critical Path (St. Martin's
Press, 1979), pg. 116 [back]

6. "When blimp photographs are taken of giant stadia packed full
of rock-concert or football fans, we get an idea of what 100,000
people look like. We all think of Hiroshima as the worst single
killing of humans by humans. That was about a 75,000-capacity-
coliseum-full. Each day of each year, year after year, a 75,000-
capacity-stadium-full of around-the-world humans perish from
starvation or its side effects, despite an annual average 5-percent
world food-production overage of the amount of food adequate for
the total world's population. This daily kill of innocents dwarfs
the awful Auschwitz killing.

GRUNCH did not bring this about, but it could very profitably bring
it to an end. Just because it is possible does not mean that it is
easy. With the computers' guidance, however, and some executive
vision, courage, initiative, and follow-through, it can be done
very profitably in terms of money and lasting kudos for GRUNCH
and prohumanity enterprise. It would cost only 3 percent of Grunch's
annual dividend earnings to not only feed all those now starving to
death but also to alleviate the dire poverty around the entire
planet, since the population explosion is occurring strictly
amongst impoverished people. Such a world initiative on the part
of Grunch would eliminate one of the two great threats to humanity's
continuance on planet Earth: nuclear bombing and overpopulation."
-- Grunch of Giants (St. Martin's Press, 1983) [back]

                     Synergetics on the Web
                   maintained by Kirby Urner
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:51:18 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      25-AUG-1998 17:51
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 dare to be naieve, but not stupid!
    no-one can help it but Bucky, who cannot be questioned
 on the presumed neccesity of nations,
 to do just as the IMF-WB ask of them, although
 taht is totally contrary to their post-WW2 charterization
 as the "reconstructive" component of the UN; can we?
    the whole of Director Camdesuss' (and Chair Greenspan et al's)
 approach is to bail out the bankrupt banks,
 the Big Bags of the *fondi*, which you refer to as LAWCAP;
 well, finis.
    as for "GENI",
 how do you know that such an Earth-girdling system won't short-out,
 some thing of importance, like, like the propulsion?

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:35:32 EDT
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From:         Fred Spykerman <Spyk111111@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: reshingling my dome
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Hi. I'm new to the list and was wondering what you thought of dome living and
if you knew anything about Gene Hopster's design called the Hexadome. I have
his book called Design and Build Your Dome Home. Looks like everything is
explained except shingling. In this design you build 24 triangles and 3
trapezoids all covered with plywood. Looks pretty neat, but small at 32 ft
diameter. What do ya think?
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:17:28 -0700
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From:         Patrick Salsbury <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      Re: reshingling my dome
In-Reply-To:  <21b5f60d.35e38285@aol.com> from "Fred Spykerman" at Aug 25,
              98 11:35:32 pm
Content-Type: text

>
> Hi. I'm new to the list and was wondering what you thought of dome living and
> if you knew anything about Gene Hopster's design called the Hexadome. I have
> his book called Design and Build Your Dome Home. Looks like everything is
> explained except shingling. In this design you build 24 triangles and 3
> trapezoids all covered with plywood. Looks pretty neat, but small at 32 ft
> diameter. What do ya think?
>
        I haven't seen this book, but I have seen pictures of various
Hexadome designs. I think they're 2-frequency domes, but Kirby or someone
should probably correct me on this if I'm wrong.

        I'm not sure about shingling, but I'm currently living in a 35'
dome, and it's quite spacious. I have a friend in a 39' one, and that seems
extremely large. My dome did have a 2 bedroom "wing" attached (regular
rectilinear construction) about 5 years after the original owners built it.
My girlfriend and I live in it, and it's more than enough room for us. In
fact, there are rooms that we sometimes don't even enter for days on end.

        I haven't made a "proper" web page for them, yet, but you can see
some digital pictures of our dome, and also of the emergency shelter
prototype (a 3-frequency lightweight dome made of corrugated plastic) that
we built at a dome-building party last month, on my website.

Check out:

http://www.sculptors.com/~salsbury/Gifs/Dome-Party/

        The house pictures start with the ones labelled "PHILLY-DOME", and
there are party/shelter pictures throughout.

        If you're interested in the emergency-shelter aspect, and wish to
join in on the planning/design/discussion for that, or to discuss other
aspects of autonomous living, you might want to check out the domesteading
mailing list. There are instructions on how to sign up at:

http://www.sculptors.com/lists.html

        And for shingling and other construction related questions about
"more traditional" dome houses (i.e. - ones built of wood and sheetrock and
shingle, rather than aluminum and plastic and glass), I'd recommend the
"domehome" mailing list. I don't have that address handy at the moment.
Could someone else post it?

        Welcome to the list! :-)

Pat
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:03:33 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan
In-Reply-To:  <199808260051.RAA07750@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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At 05:51 PM 8/25/98 -0700, Brian Hutchings wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      25-AUG-1998 17:51
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> dare to be naieve, but not stupid!
>    no-one can help it but Bucky, who cannot be questioned
> on the presumed neccesity of nations,
> to do just as the IMF-WB ask of them, although
> taht is totally contrary to their post-WW2 charterization
> as the "reconstructive" component of the UN; can we?

The point is to have parallel scenarios (convergent/divergent in
synergetics) wherein multi-language, mixed-culture global U
administrators pour over nationless maps diagramming/brainstorming
ways to salvage situations driven to high entropy by the less well-
schooled (if this sounds elitist, it is).

Of course the internet obviates the Hollywoodized "lots of people
in one big situation room" picture in large degree, but the point
is the same:  archives will show some players (in .mil and .gov
domains included) weren't "starring" in those poor-quality, weak-
minded, LAWCAPish tragedy scenarios which predominate on CNN.

Kids looking back will see self-identified Muslims, Christians,
Jews, Quagans (= Quaker Pagans), whatever... working together in
tight formation and with honor, with a shared focus on building
infrastructure designed to serve all humans, regardless of irrelevant
religio-political affiliations.  Others were busy being clueless,
given so much schooling in obsolete "wrong stuff" ideologies.

>    the whole of Director Camdesuss' (and Chair Greenspan et al's)
> approach is to bail out the bankrupt banks,
> the Big Bags of the *fondi*, which you refer to as LAWCAP;
> well, finis.

I don't see you as my translator, but if you want to babble back
in some jargon of your own, perhaps more LLR-informed, that's
your right.  Maybe you should write an article for one of the LLR
publications explaining RBF-style info processing to those more
likely to circle according to Tarpley's central polarities
(e.g. Venetian versus anti-Venetian).

>    as for "GENI",
> how do you know that such an Earth-girdling system won't short-out,
> some thing of importance, like, like the propulsion?
>

The energy systems are global as it is, starting with the ecosystemic
(nonhumanly contrived) and shifting frequencies to tune in the
various circuit designs for motherboard earth (including lots of
extraterrestrial transponders and data scopes).  Closing gaps in
the electrical grid to "light up" a global power structure with
the Fuller School embedded (metaphysically) is one way of challenging
status quo banking to remember the Sun as per GST 101.

Kirby

Major references:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/motherboard.html
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/gstuniv.html

Abbreviations:

CNN    = Cable News Network (Turner + Time/Warner)
GENI   = Global Energy Network International (http://www.geni.org/)
GST    = General Systems Theory
IMF-WB = International Monetary Fund - World Bank
LAWCAP = Post-FDR Lawyer-capitalism (RBF coin)
LLR    = Lyndon LaRouche (USA-based scholar-publicist)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:53:28 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Lighting up earth.
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I'm not sure if i read your message wrong or what, Kirby, but a
interconnected electrical system is happening now.

I have noticed that some people don't (Not including you Kirby) seem to
understand how a globally networked power grid, could work. Or the
powers that be don't want people to know how it could work, I guess.

Brian I don't know where you get your information from. (I mean that
literally) I tried a search for the Pugwash conference on the site you
indicated had the answer and it's not there. But getting back to the
point of of who best fits the Dr. Strange glove mold it's definitely
Edward Teller and not Leo Szilard. Szilard was not at all pro nuclear
weapons. Accept at that conference when it was supposed that the Germans
had a bomb or were close to having a bomb. Szilard advocated nuclear
energy has a lot of scientists of the time. He went out of his way to
bring about a peace between the super powers when crazies like Gen.
Curtis Lemay wanted to bomb anything that moved. Or anybody who might
contaminate his or any other god fearing, red blooded (Obviously not
pinko blooded) Americans precious bodily fluids. Szilard went to
Einstein 'cause they were buddies in Germany before the war. And that
was the only time that Teller acted as he put it 'Szilard's chauffeur',
after that Teller pretty much ran the show especially after the first
bomb tests were over. Could it be that Teller's interest in bomb
production was so rabid because, along with holding the patent to the H
bomb (Well he co owned it with Fuchs, but he never had to worry about
sharing any royalties with Fuchs.) he holds a lot of weapons patents and
Szilard holds non.

Let's see what kind of reaction I get from this.
Also Kirby, I don't believe the great deeds that some religions, may
have performed, or say they are performing, come even close to the
misery they have caused.

I dropped the syn-L thing cause you guys strike me as very "Rush
Limboughish", but at the same time I'm pretty sure you guys aren't "Big
fat idiots". My goodness a Jewish comedy writer said that. I realize
Bucky thought highly of that wacky fascist, good humored as he was
<Extreme sarcasm> , Henry Ford. At least here I can get info about domes
and etc. After I finish Amy Edmondson's book I'd like to help work on
'Hugh Kenner's book on the web'. I rewrote the program he presents in
his book for generating chord lengths etc., many years ago to work on
my. HP 11c, I don't believe anybody uses that calculator any more but I
guess I could write up the code in another language, along with posting
his tables.

Mark Somers
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:00:02 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Lighting up earth.
Comments: cc: synergetics-l@teleport.com
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>Let's see what kind of reaction I get from this.

Thanks for the feedback Mark.

>Also Kirby, I don't believe the great deeds that some religions, may
>have performed, or say they are performing, come even close to the
>misery they have caused.
>

Fair enough.  My points (posted elsetimes) are:

(a) that 'religion' is not a very valuable concept (as per book
'The End of Religion' -- which I can't find now -- something on
the reading list in a Dr. Walter Kaufmann course at Princeton) as
it ('religion') throws together a hodge-podge, traditions which
might as well be categorized elsewise (e.g. zen as a kind of
psychology, Urnerism as a philosophy). Hence the "ideologies" meme
I'm using from SI of late (Trevor Blake a major scholar of SI,
though uncovered by health insurance and enroute to hospital as
I write this).[1]

(b) that the self-identified religious would do well to pay heed to
the fact that synergetics has been officially on the scene for some
20+ years, and not all of us with clout in the religion department
have been oblivious re this chronology.  So if you harbor pretensions
of being taken seriously as a religiously-minded figure, you might be
interested to know that you've been bypassed (like some clot) if
manifestly insincere re digging humanity out of this hell hole we're
in.  Think of how we look back on those who just "went along with
the psychology of the times" in the Nazi Era.  Not a good time to
be the Pope, by some accounts -- maybe not a Rabbi either, if you
_still_ don't know your Promised Land isn't some godforsaken political
creation in the Middle East (many Rabbis, some highly orthodox, are
fully aware of this teaching, and accepting of it, are taking
responsibility for making it clear).

>I dropped the syn-L thing cause you guys strike me as very "Rush
>Limboughish", but at the same time I'm pretty sure you guys aren't
>"Big fat idiots". My goodness a Jewish comedy writer said that.

I'm somewhat surprised you would think that, especially given links
to my site from such as www.ratical.com/corporations/index.html.

Plus I've gone online with strong credentials as a Liberal Friend
via the essays linked from my www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/quakes.html.

Plus we're definitely not all "guys".

Syn-L is not a clique of like-minded, so far as I know.[2] Mostly
lurkers.  Those whom have posted (a subset) strongly disagree on
many points, most of them apolitical.  As for myself, I chose to
wear a tie to my last July 4 family reunion in the Seattle area,
and some relatives wondered if I'd shifted hard to the right (simply
on the basis of costume).  The tie was from the US Post Office and
was festooned with cartoons of that little Martian with a Roman
helmet, a favorite character of mine (a Bugs Bunny foil).  I may
be Looney Tunes (TM), but I don't consider myself a Limbaughite.
If you want to dig deep in the archives re Urner & the Princeton-
based neoconservatives behind 'Jolly Roger', check:

jollyroger.com/beaconway/reviews.html (scroll down)

>I realize Bucky thought highly of that wacky fascist, good humored as
>he was <Extreme sarcasm> , Henry Ford. At least here I can get info
>about domes and etc. After I finish Amy Edmondson's book I'd like to
>help work on 'Hugh Kenner's book on the web'. I rewrote the program he
>presents in his book for generating chord lengths etc., many years ago
>to work on my. HP 11c, I don't believe anybody uses that calculator
>any more but I guess I could write up the code in another language,
>along with posting his tables.
>

I first sharpened my programming teeth on the HP65, one of the very
first programmable calculators on the market, circa 1975.  Had only
a little exposure to Bucky's thinking at that time, thanks mostly to
Fred Craden, my social studies teacher at the Overseas School of Rome,
and Mrs. Tarantella (I think it was), who discussed the instability
of squares (vs. triangles) with her 8th grade math class (or was
it 7th), circa 1970 (five years pre 'Synergetics').

Kirby

Notes:

[1] Long suffering Nick Consoletti also uncovered.  LAWCAP is good
at not providing basic health care to USA VIPs, architecting its
thinking to serve rank and file moneymakers with little between
the ears except a desire to mindlessly amass and "make a killing"
in the market (socialized corporatism, welfare for shareholders).

[2] www.inetarena.com/~pdx4d/Synergetics-L/synl.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:48:23 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Misc
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Kirby, you bring up your religion often from other messages I've read
and that is why I grouped you with the religious 'f-right'. And I
concern myself that the study of Fullers work will become a religion.
It's good to hear that some of the conservative jews know a little
something about reality. Sure would be nice if they tried some more.


I was raised "Catho-lick" ( Frank Zappa learned me how to spell and
pronounce it more correctly). I'm pretty sure I've successfully
deprogrammed myself. I've just got a book titled "The politics at god's
funeral", I haven't read it yet though. I'm also aware of the fact that
Nietzsche's sister rewrote some of his stuff putting in the
anti-Semitism crappola, and I'm surprised that certain individuals still
pretend not to know that. Especially when these individuals use like
really big words and such, as they carry a torch for that poor down
trodden miss understood champion of the spineless war geeks. Since I
never graduated from college and I hate bowling, it feels good to make
up awful names for people who, having graduated from college and under
the influence of a major religion, don't seem to have a real grasp of
reality. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe there's a connection there. hahahaha.

I just looked in my copy of Kenner's book and found he used a HP 65.

The Loony tunes Martian character's name is Marvin. ..... Marvin the
Martian.

Mark Somers

PS here's a link to a Dome manufacturer, I think they sell shingles
too.  http://www.domehome.com/Default.htm .

PS again.

One of the reasons I'm glad to put A Fuller Explanation on the web is
because I'm involved with the Nano Supercomputer project and I thought
that the synergetics might help in the computer simulating of molecular
structures.
 http://www.nanocomputer.org/  I created the Silver Team pages, and am
for the time, the acting Silver team captain.
 http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/20.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:57:59 GMT
Reply-To:     wolfbat359@mindspring.com
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Donald L Ferry <wolfbat359@MINDSPRING.COM>
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises, Inc.
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan

pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:

>wolfbat359@mindspring.com (Donald L Ferry) wrote:
>
>>Well the Islamic Government of the Sudan has been carrying out a
>>Genocidal war against the Negroid Animists and Christians of Southern
>>Sudan.  I think that goes much further than 'Sectarian battles between
>>warring ideologies marginalize' people!
>
>Sounds like more sad sectarianism to me -- as does your spin.
>Little kids are less programmed, that's for sure.  To enter the
>Kingdom of Heaven, you may need to check your obsolete and
>misconditioning religion at the door ("know-it-alls" sometimes
>have a hard time with that -- so much invested in "the wrong
>stuff").
>
Nope = Try again!@
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 00:45:19 -0500
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From:         Travis Swaim <cheeto@THEPENTAGON.COM>
Organization: Jtzt web pages
Subject:      dome site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

    I love this group! I just got into geodesics by a friend who owns
his own dome company (Good Karma Enterprises). I built a web page for
him at http://www.theoffice.net/good_karma_domes . And am working on a
new site. Surprisingly to find he's one of the few that sell 4 freq.
dome kits (actually the only one I've found). Doing all his web work has
gotten me even more interested in domes, I'm even building my own
utility shed "dome" a 16ft 5/8 4 freq. totally from scrap materials.
    I was wondering if anyone has any programs for modeling and stress
testing domes.

--
 HEY, LOOK!  IT'S NOT MY FAULT; IT'S SOME GUY NAMED "GENERAL
PROTECTION".
     (Ratbert, the Consultant, speaks, in Dilbert, by Scott Adams)
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:33:34 GMT
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From:         syncrom5@MY-DEJANEWS.COM
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan

In article <35e304f8.40350405@news.teleport.com>,
  pdx4d@teleport.com (Kirby Urner) wrote:
> wolfbat359@mindspring.com (Donald L Ferry) wrote:
>
> >Well the Islamic Government of the Sudan has been carrying out a
> >Genocidal war against the Negroid Animists and Christians of Southern
> >Sudan.  I think that goes much further than 'Sectarian battles between
> >warring ideologies marginalize' people!
>
> Sounds like more sad sectarianism to me -- as does your spin.
> Little kids are less programmed, that's for sure.  To enter the
> Kingdom of Heaven, you may need to check your obsolete and
> misconditioning religion at the door ("know-it-alls" sometimes
> have a hard time with that -- so much invested in "the wrong
> stuff").


Full story
Anti-U.S. protests in Sudan tell half the story
04:51 a.m. Aug 24, 1998 Eastern
By Christine Hauser

CAIRO, Aug 24 (Reuters) - For days, Sudan television has broadcast images of
frenzied mobs ripping up the American flag during protests in Khartoum,
conveying to the world a sense of fury at the U.S. missile strikes on their
country.

But that is only part of the picture. The protests since Thursday's U.S.
attack on a Sudan medicine factory belie the hopes that the raid has given
some Sudanese for the downfall of the Islamist government they oppose.

``This attack is like perfume to us,'' said a student, echoing remarks made by
other Khartoum residents to Reuters in Cairo.

A European diplomat in Cairo said: ``I called a Sudanese friend and said I was
sorry for what happened. He said 'I'm not sorry at all. They should have hit
much harder.'

``But his reasoning was the attack was also useless because it did not get the
regime out,'' the diplomat said.

The United States said it had launched the strike against Sudan, and almost
simultaneous attacks on alleged Islamist guerrilla targets in Afghanistan, in
retaliation for the bombing of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania this
month.

Sudan flatly denied Washington's allegation that the El Shifa pharmaceutical
factory had been involved in producing components for chemical weapons.

On Saturday, independent observers estimated, about 10,000 people turned out
for a mass demonstration in central Martyrs' Square. Many protesters appeared
genuinely angered.

``There are others who have a different view,'' one observer said. ``These
protests are very much orchestrated and unspontaneous affairs.''

A difference of opinion comes as no surprise in Africa's largest country which
has more than 300 tribes, and where civil war has raged for more than a decade
among a social mosaic of Moslems, Christians and animists, Africans and Arabs.

Diplomats and residents say that most of the opponents of the Sudan government
are university students, professionals and the educated elite. ``Sections of
the society are clapping and saying 'great stuff','' said an African diplomat
of the raids.

Cries for change also circulate among people from the mainly Christian south.

``There are quite a few calling for more (raids),'' said one Sudanese man.
``They think it would hasten the fall of the regime. But the government has
become very serious,'' he added, referring to President Omar Hassan
al-Bashir's announcement there was ``no more time for fifth-columnists.''

Diplomats said it was not yet clear whether the attack would translate into a
windfall for the organised exiled opposition alliance known as the National
Democratic Alliance (NDA).

The diplomats note that the rebels have failed to topple the government in a
war which in its present phase dates back to 1983, nor have they fomented the
uprising in Khartoum they once spoke of. Few opposition sources remain in
Khartoum and their ability to encourage change was also debatable, they say.

But Abdon Agaw, a Cairo-based NDA executive office member, said: ``Uprisings
can occur overnight. There comes a point when suddenly something triggers a
popular movement. And the rebels have been gaining ground. It is a sure but
slow process.

``Many think this is the beginning of the end,'' he said.

Predictably, rebels used the U.S. strike as an opportunity to prove their
point. ``If the international community wants to get rid of terrorism, they
should assist the Sudanese people and the NDA in their struggle to overthrow
the government,'' said Sudan People's Liberation Army spokesman Yassir Arman
in Cairo.

But not all of the Sudanese who want change in Khartoum have completely
applauded the strike. Some anti-government citizens found cause to criticise
the American action, saying they doubted that the factory had produced weapons
components.

The European diplomat said that, in the short term, the air strikes had
relieved the pressure on the government to make changes. ``It got people out
in the streets. Instead of the government being the bad wolf they are the
lamb,'' he said. ``It will keep people's attention away from electricity
shortages and lack of peace.''


-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 03:39:19 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Sudan and war-torn Africa

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      27-AUG-1998  3:39
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 last things, firstly; who in Hell is LaRouche a "publicist" for --
 do you mean, For he, hisself & elrooosh?...  of course,
 we'd say, he's a physical economist & statesman,
 one who actually confers with statesfolk around Earth,
 including the more-or-less developing countries.  of course,
 you can just "go" to http://www.larouchepub.com and get it
 from the horse's anterior.
    I'd not translate for you; too painful, and
 I'd have to learn another language.  I am merely supplying some
 of the known elements to the speculative (or
 transformative) horseshit that Bucky laid in his Collected and
 Post-Humus Works.  anyone who looks-up the term,
 *fondi*, will immediately dig the connection to "LAWCAP", or,
 say, the Imperial Bush Administration(s); EX-humate that, and
 bury Bush, Junior and his oily New World Order.  of course,
 in the narrow, Bushwhacker sense, http://www.tarpley.net
 will achieve the purpose (on the left), as well
 as in the broader sense (on the right) [zee clique au zee mouze .-]
    I think, you missed my "point",
 re shortcircuiting.  in any case,
 we might want to wait til after the peak in solar activity!

 tell it to the "breeteesh geeopoleeteeshunz" and their Milosevic
 e.g., please!

 thus quoth:
  administrators pour over nationless maps diagramming/brainstorming
  ways to salvage situations driven to high entropy by the less well-
  schooled (if this sounds elitist, it is).
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:18:02 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      27-AUG-1998  4:18
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 sorry, dude, but I don't know your name, and
 I did note the source of your story, Reuter(s),
 AKA Ye Olde Coloniale Networke;
 the plaintively rhetorical question for you is,
 How many "nations" are in the "commonwealth" o' the Queen?...
 one former colony that is not, is Sudan!
    the LATimes had a very interesting story,
 pA24, last Sunday (23august), whose source I forget:
 while the President was lashing-out at the US (although
 thy've also invited us & the UN to do the forensic thing,
 very cooly & diplomatically, in Khartoum),
 the story went-on to display a protest of 500,
 going to the *British* embassy & stoning it, and
 ripping the Union Jack to pieces.  what a clear message,
 to *our* president, Clinton!
    now, I think, the spewing of entire clips
 to this NG is not cool, esp.from Reuter(s) !!

 --The XXXX Files
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:38:21 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      I have noticed that some people don't (Not including you Kirby)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      27-AUG-1998  4:38
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Mark, see "The Weaponeers" and tell me what *they* say....
 I'd say, doc.Strangleglove is a composite,
 perhaps somewhat ignorant, considering that
 Teller was much-more in the spotlight.  in any case,
 see http://www.larouchepub.com/wells-of-doom,
 or taht is the title of the essay, anyway; *then*,
 tell me what you think of Szilard's Pugwashians, and
 Bertrand "russian stone-aged waste-land" Russel et al.  (of course,
 Teller is routinely trashed by "The Left", and
 folks who are afraid of radiation (except
 for a day at the beach .-))
    as for "GENI",
 we do have some data on that, and
 it may not be as prosaic as Bucky Saith.  operatively,
 along with the potential between night & day sides,
 Earth creates a bowshock in the solarstuff, and so on.

 thus quoth:
  I have noticed that some people don't (Not including you Kirby) seem to
  understand how a globally networked power grid, could work. Or the

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:41:49 -0700
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Lighting the globe

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      27-AUG-1998  4:41
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 wow, "except the shingling";
 thou art a verb, wetly!

 thus quoth:
  his book called Design and Build Your Dome Home. Looks like everything is
  explained except shingling. In this design you build 24 triangles and 3

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:56:38 +0100
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From:         Chris Holland <cholland@MINEFIELD.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: CNN reports on Sudan

Don't get me started on Sudan alright.

Crusi'n USA

Get it?

Chris
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 06:17:09 -0600
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From:         27 <dmullins@DOITNOW.COM>
Subject:      Re: dome site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hey Travis,  would you like to share that "how to" info on that dome
utility shed,  I would be BIG TIME gratful to you,

Sincerely, Denny


----------
> From: Travis Swaim <cheeto@THEPENTAGON.COM>
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: dome site
> Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 11:45 PM
>
>     I love this group! I just got into geodesics by a friend who owns
> his own dome company (Good Karma Enterprises). I built a web page for
> him at http://www.theoffice.net/good_karma_domes . And am working on a
> new site. Surprisingly to find he's one of the few that sell 4 freq.
> dome kits (actually the only one I've found). Doing all his web work has
> gotten me even more interested in domes, I'm even building my own
> utility shed "dome" a 16ft 5/8 4 freq. totally from scrap materials.
>     I was wondering if anyone has any programs for modeling and stress
> testing domes.
>
> --
>  HEY, LOOK!  IT'S NOT MY FAULT; IT'S SOME GUY NAMED "GENERAL
> PROTECTION".
>      (Ratbert, the Consultant, speaks, in Dilbert, by Scott Adams)
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:35:28 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Misc
In-Reply-To:  <35E4F327.EA06BB0E@wtp.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:48 PM 8/26/98 -0600, Mark Somers wrote:
>Kirby, you bring up your religion often from other messages I've read
>and that is why I grouped you with the religious 'f-right'. And I
>concern myself that the study of Fullers work will become a religion.
>It's good to hear that some of the conservative jews know a little
>something about reality. Sure would be nice if they tried some more.
>

Yes, I've brought religion into my posts -- best to deal with
this 'synergetics is not a religion' meme head-on, by having the
implications of a first 'engineer-saint' (not my coin) devoting
a lifetime to making the world work (physically -- requires more
synchronization metaphysically) ripple out and about, rocking
the boats of the flag-flying religious here and there.  As a
Quaker, I do two-way traffic among Friends re Synergetics and
something along the lines of A. Huxley's 'Perennial Philosophy'
-- as an ideologue, propagandist and AFSC corporate rep (nowadays).

>
>I was raised "Catho-lick" ( Frank Zappa learned me how to spell and
>pronounce it more correctly). I'm pretty sure I've successfully
>deprogrammed myself. I've just got a book titled "The politics at god's
>funeral", I haven't read it yet though.

I've taught Catholic school, have ties some with Jesuits (e.g. had
some mediated contact with Father Mackey in Bhutan re geometry
curriculum for that Himalayan Kingdom).  Living in Rome for several
years obviously had an impact as well.  Am also a Zappa fan.

>I'm also aware of the fact that
>Nietzsche's sister rewrote some of his stuff putting in the
>anti-Semitism crappola, and I'm surprised that certain individuals still
>pretend not to know that.

Yeah, lots of "scholars" seem to prefer the myth to the reality --
more convenient, given whatever bricks in the wall already used
to support whatever conclusions.

>Especially when these individuals use like
>really big words and such, as they carry a torch for that poor down
>trodden miss understood champion of the spineless war geeks. Since I
>never graduated from college and I hate bowling, it feels good to make
>up awful names for people who, having graduated from college and under
>the influence of a major religion, don't seem to have a real grasp of
>reality. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe there's a connection there. hahahaha.
>

I was pretty good at duck pins in the Philippines for awhile.
Duckpins:Bowling::miniaturegolf:Golf (sort of).

>I just looked in my copy of Kenner's book and found he used a HP 65.
>

Didn't know that.  Rick Bono has his DOME freeware and is working
to bring Kenner's book online (with permission).

>The Loony tunes Martian character's name is Marvin. ..... Marvin the
>Martian.
>

Thanks.  Didn't know.

>Mark Somers
>
>PS here's a link to a Dome manufacturer, I think they sell shingles
>too.  http://www.domehome.com/Default.htm .
>
>PS again.
>
>One of the reasons I'm glad to put A Fuller Explanation on the web is
>because I'm involved with the Nano Supercomputer project and I thought
>that the synergetics might help in the computer simulating of molecular
>structures.

Grateful you're working on this, a valuable contribution.

> http://www.nanocomputer.org/  I created the Silver Team pages, and am
>for the time, the acting Silver team captain.
> http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/20.html
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:44:08 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Sudan and war-torn Africa
In-Reply-To:  <199808271039.DAA17024@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 03:39 AM 8/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
><<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      27-AUG-1998  3:39
>                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
>
> last things, firstly; who in Hell is LaRouche a "publicist" for --
> do you mean, For he, hisself & elrooosh?...

Yes.  Sounded more polite than propagandist (what I am), or
leafleter (obsolete terminology).  Many great USAers were
publicists (Ben Franklin owned a press) so I wouldn't
knee-jerk bristle at the term, if I were you.

> we'd say, he's a physical economist & statesman,
> one who actually confers with statesfolk around Earth,

Verging on epithets in my book.  Actually "statesman" sounds
more quaint, and a tad sexist (given the images it conjures).
"Economist" is also one I personally avoid, given I'm
competing with that sorry-assed "dismal science" with a
brand of GST (general systems theory).  Students with lots
of Econ but no GST are less employable in GRUNCH top
management, is my line (LLR included I suppose, not that
he's applied or anything).

> including the more-or-less developing countries.  of course,
> you can just "go" to http://www.larouchepub.com and get it
                                          ^^^
                                        publicists, get it?
> from the horse's anterior.
                   ^^^^^^^^
                   no comment

>    I'd not translate for you; too painful, and
> I'd have to learn another language.

Other than Breeeeeean's private language you mean?

> I am merely supplying some
> of the known elements to the speculative (or
> transformative) horseshit that Bucky laid in his Collected and
> Post-Humus Works.

LAWCAP is from 'Critical Path', given direction and spin in that
context.

> anyone who looks-up the term,
> *fondi*, will immediately dig the connection to "LAWCAP", or,
> say, the Imperial Bush Administration(s); EX-humate that, and
> bury Bush, Junior and his oily New World Order.  of course,

Your Bush fixation is pathetic and spoon-fed (i.e. we don't
need to consult BH as a source to get the full story).

> in the narrow, Bushwhacker sense, http://www.tarpley.net
> will achieve the purpose (on the left), as well
> as in the broader sense (on the right) [zee clique au zee mouze .-]
>    I think, you missed my "point",
> re shortcircuiting.  in any case,
> we might want to wait til after the peak in solar activity!
>

Nightline transmission is a reality as it is, over longish
distances.  Closing a few gaps here and there doesn't change
anything re relationship to solar activity.

> tell it to the "breeteesh geeopoleeteeshunz" and their Milosevic
> e.g., please!
>

Multicultural as I said.  Russians probably further ahead of the curve
on this one (given less to lose with the passing of this silly,
poorly designed LAWCAPish status quo).

> thus quoth:
>  administrators pour over nationless maps diagramming/brainstorming
>  ways to salvage situations driven to high entropy by the less well-
>  schooled (if this sounds elitist, it is).
>

Kirby
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:32:48 -0000
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         hal mc whinnie <halchaos2@EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject:      new lists to join
Comments: cc: urner <pdx4d@teleport.com>

i have three e-mail based list which might be of interest these are:

a] fractal of the week
b]drawing and thought of the day
c]drawing from the whole brain

these lists will be sent by e-mail at no charge, the file attachments will
be in jpeg, gif,pcx, and as html documents.

these are designed for artists, art teachers, designers, and art and design
students.

all the work is copy free and can be used in a variety of ways.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:25:46 -0700
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From:         Patrick Salsbury <salsbury@SCULPTORS.COM>
Subject:      Re: dome site & dome programs
Comments: cc: domesteading@bucky.sculptors.com
In-Reply-To:  <35E3A0EE.9BFF9DCC@thepentagon.com> from "Travis Swaim" at Aug
              26, 98 00:45:19 am
Content-Type: text

[Note, this is being cross-posted to the domesteading list, as I think it
applies well to both. -Pat]

Travis Swaim says of the Geodesic list:
>
>     I love this group! I just got into geodesics by a friend who owns
> his own dome company (Good Karma Enterprises). I built a web page for
> him at http://www.theoffice.net/good_karma_domes . And am working on a
> new site. Surprisingly to find he's one of the few that sell 4 freq.
> dome kits (actually the only one I've found). Doing all his web work has
> gotten me even more interested in domes, I'm even building my own
> utility shed "dome" a 16ft 5/8 4 freq. totally from scrap materials.
>     I was wondering if anyone has any programs for modeling and stress
> testing domes.
>
        I think Natural Spaces Domes does 3, 4, 5, and 6 frequency domes. I
only have a catalog from '92, though, so I don't know about their current
offerings. Of course, 2 minutes of web searching brought up:

http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com/

        Which looks to have lots of neat info.

        For programming, I'd recommend Rick Bono's "Dome" program. It will
let you design domes of any freqency, and output in a multitude of file
formats, including POV, DXF, WRL (for VRML), and ASCII data. I've got a
friend who does finite-element analysis, and he says most of those
engineering programs will run off of DXF formats and do stress and force
analyses.

        You can find Rick's page at http://www.concentric.net/~Rjbono/

I'm just checking it out again, now, and he's added a LOT of neat stuff,
including the full text of Synergetics 1 & 2 online! I'd recommend everyone
go back and take a dig through his site. It looks to contain some gems.

        Hope this helps!

Pat
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:41:08 -0600
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              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         "Lawrence E. Couey" <LECouey@INET-1.COM>
Organization: FX Informationing
Subject:      Bucky Siting!
MIME-Version: 1.0
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First Siting:

David Brin's new book __Heaven's Reach__, has several references to
Bucky and his work. Well, mostly to Bucky balls and fullerines (stupid
spell-checker, has "bucky balls" but not fullerines ... ;-), and how
they can be made to "do" many things by "incorporating" a differing atom
at their centers.

__Heaven's Reach__ is a ScFi book. It's the last of over half-a-dozen
books on the future. Most of Brin's books are good ScFi.

Second Siting:
September's issue of __Popular Mechanics__ has 2 articles dealing with
Bucky and/or his work(s).

The first is in the "Technology Watch" section and is about a "EQR
Biosphere", an earthquake resistant structure. It's a "near" Fly-eye
dome inside of a Geodesic Sphere. No real mention of Bucky though.

The second article is about a new idea in tents being developed by
Sierra Designs. A Tensegrity Tent. The article actually begins with a
quote from __Synergetics__, "The word 'tensegrity is an invention: ...".
Good article. Short, but good.

Lawrence C.

Siting references to Bucky's work(s) is an exiting thing to me. It means
that more people will (possible) ask questions that haven't been
answered and will seek Bucky's ideas to build/discover solutions.
--

---------------------------------------------
Lawrence E. Couey
 - Convivial Applied Theoretical Technologies/
     FX Informationing
 - mailto:LECouey@INet-1.com
---------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:19:10 -0500
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From:         Travis Swaim <cheeto@THEPENTAGON.COM>
Organization: Jtzt web pages
Subject:      Re: dome site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

27 wrote:

> Hey Travis,  would you like to share that "how to" info on that dome
> utility shed,  I would be BIG TIME gratful to you,
>
> Sincerely, Denny
>

Here you go Denny here's some info and some I learned. Also thanks to Pat for
his help to that program WinDome (http://www.cris.com/~rjbono/bin/windome.zip)
is pretty cool. Also for those interested we are going to set my 16 ft. dome
up at the Oklahoma State Fair, hopefully we can get alot more people
interested in domes.

    Basically we're building a "no-hub" system so we are pre-fabing it and one
for a 16 ft green house (excuse me -dome :) at  the same time. Since all the
struts are between 27" & 30" I got lots of scrap from pallets. even the
decking is scrap (we have a Sea-Doo retailer nearby in the spring they get a
ton of those things, and they all come crated in wafer board. There's a bunch
of scrap wood out there that people use once and just throw away. I guess they
think it doesn't grow on trees or something. It takes some time to pull nails
(make sure you get all of them or you'll ruin a blade) but you can save alot
of money. It could even be good family quality time.

    I did find out that I could have built a 30 ft. one for about the same
amount of labor. It has the same number of panels just longer struts. But all
I had room for was a 16 ft.. And it was a sort of a trial for me to understand
the math and see if I liked it. My plan is to cover it with plastic (also
available in scrap from furniture stores or other large item retailers),
stucco it, & then paint it to seal the stucco. I hope this helps. I would like
to give out the dimensions but I feel that might be a conflict of interests
since I am working for him.

    -keep up the building
        Travis
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:12:16 -0600
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From:         Dennis Johnson <djohnson@NATURALSPACESDOMES.COM>
Organization: Natural Spaces Domes
Subject:      Re: dome site
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Travis Swaim wrote:
 Surprisingly to find he's one of the few that sell 4 freq.
> dome kits (actually the only one I've found).

Hello Travis:

We sell 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 frequencey domes.
Aloma
Natural Spaces Domes
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:37:21 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Sudan and war-torn Africa (economics by other means?)

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      28-AUG-1998  9:37
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us
 oops:
  <<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      27-AUG-1998 12:12
                   r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

   my "fixation" upon Sir George is mainly tactical,
   to get his zombie-clone, George Junior,
   the Walk-in Guvnah o'Texas, out of his putative frontrunnership
   for the RNC nomination; the "end" was & still is nigh!

   thus quoth:
    LAWCAP is from 'Critical Path', given direction and spin in that
    context.

    > anyone who looks-up the term,
    > *fondi*, will immediately dig the connection to "LAWCAP", or,
    > say, the Imperial Bush Administration(s); EX-humate that, and
    > bury Bush, Junior and his oily New World Order.  of course,

    Your Bush fixation is pathetic and spoon-fed (i.e. we don't
    need to consult BH as a source to get the full story).

    > in the narrow, Bushwhacker sense, http://www.tarpley.net


   thank God, you don't rely upon me (or
   what ever it is that Puakans do in the "borrowing position" !-)
      oy, aren't you being picqayune?...
   would you prefer, statesperson-parolee?...  I'm sure,
   your prejudice is rooted in a populist sentiment,
   esp.following decades of frame-ups of Congressors
   by the permanent DoJ bureaucracy (why,
   we just got a bill through the House .-)...  as for the term,
   economist,
   we are as far from the monetarist whackoes, like Friedman,
   von Hayek, Volcker, Greenspan, and other Mont Pelerin or Ayn Rand nuts
   -- from the "mainstream" of the ideology of "trade is freedom" --
   as anyone.  of course,
   only some of the foreign, nationalist press will "give"
   to us that dismal terminology, anyway!

   thus quoth:
    Verging on epithets in my book.  Actually "statesman" sounds
    more quaint, and a tad sexist (given the images it conjures).
    "Economist" is also one I personally avoid, given I'm

   lasty, again, you completely ignore the terminology
   that we (heh-heh) use in EE, to wit, shortcircuiting; or,
   as you say, Closing the last few gaps -- cool experiment!

   thus quoth:
    distances.  Closing a few gaps here and there doesn't change
    anything re relationship to solar activity.

  --MAA19085.904245145/pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us--
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:51:46 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      nigh unto the end

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      28-AUG-1998  9:51
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 here's the directoid referenece for Sir George's Imperium:

    Chapter -XXIII- The End of History

    Der Staat ist als die Wirklichkeit des substantiellen Willens, die er
        in dem zu seiner Allgemeinheit erhobenen besonderen
        Selbstbewusstseyn hat, das an und fuer sich Vernuenftige. Diese
        substantielle Einheit ist absoluter unbewegter Selbstzweck, in
        welchem die Freiheit zu ihrem hoechsten Recht kommt, so wie dieser
        Endzweck das hoechste Recht gegen die Einzelnen hat, deren
        hoechste Pflicht es ist, Mitglieder des Staats zu seyn.
        G.W.F. Hegel, Grundlinien der Philosophie des Rechts.

    George Bush's inaugural address of January 21, 1989, was on the whole
    an eminently colorless and forgettable oration. The speech was for the

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:56:58 -0700
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From:         Kirby Urner <pdx4d@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject:      NCN: GST 101
Comments: To: Flemming Funch <ffunch@newciv.org>
Comments: cc: ncnmain-l@newciv.org, synergetics-l@teleport.com
In-Reply-To:  <v03007808b20546f7ba22@[199.174.188.205]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Thanks for your meditation on Economics, Flemming.

I agree that money creation is equally debt creation in the
banking game, and that exponentially increasing debts-owed
(principal + interest) drives humans to plunder and mindlessly
divest of long term ecosystemic assets (e.g. forests) in order
to make a next payment.

The Fuller School has long advocated a curriculum wherein we
view currencies as metering energy flows e.g. electrical current.

One reason for this is to more intimately connect economic and
ecosystemic circuitry within an integrated accounting system,
one which recognizes solar fusion grant income as the primary
driver of our Earthian circuitry.

Humans insert their "water wheels" (e.g. open system contrivances)
to redirect energy into work-accomplishing gizmos geared to serve
human needs.  We're basically "riding the energy gradient" much
as sailors harness wind power to get from A to B.

When people talk about the "fundamentals of the USA economy",
this, to my way of thinking at least, relates back to a global balance
sheet with intelligence and available energy (assets) working to
salvage (cannibalize) what it can use from a poorly designed, in
many ways highly misanthropic energy mismanagement scheme (a liability).

Our net worth increases in proportion to our intelligence, and we
profit from the synergies generated thereby.

I call this basic General Systems Theory (GST 101) and market it in
direct competition to Econ 101.  If you've got a lot of Econ on your
resume, but little GST, you're less employable in GRUNCH top management
circles (if this sounds somewhat elitist, it is).

Kirby

Majar references:
http://www.teleport.com/~pdx4d/  (Synergetics on the Web)
gst3.html     <-- current = currency
gstuniv.html  <-- global university
gstwork.html  <-- global balance sheet
grunch.html   <-- GRUNCH = gross universal cash heist
usaos.html    <-- USA operating system
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:45:22 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      the nasty, brutish & short science

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      28-AUG-1998 11:45
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 it may be somewhat elitist, but it's *largely* deletist, since
 the mainstream is nothing but a hucksterism
 of the imperial "free trade" paradigm,
 a la *The Economist*, the one in which Adam Smith,
 a seated chair at the U.of Edinburgh by the East Indi Co.,
 is given phoney adoption-papers as a founding parental unit
 o'th'USoA !!...  the major media trumpet this ****,
 for example yesterday on Talk of the Nation (NPR),
 when they were dyscussing the collapse in Russia,
 by using 2 experts, one from the Wall Street Journal,
 a totally Tory institution, and one from The Financial Times
 (of the City of London [financial distruct & center of cartelization,
 as per IMF-WB policy]), although they're constrained,
 not to lie, completely, about "things economical".
    as for credit-creation,
 you have only to look at the insane policies
 of the current and former chairs of El Phed,
 the former a disciple of Ayn Rand with obvious results,
 the latter who ran for his position "under" Carter,
 using the platfrom-plank of "controlled disintegration
 of the economy", as occurred into the Bush regimes
 with the scam of S&L deregulation etc. -- and
 that creep is on the board of "WAND Corp.",
 here in my adopted home-town!
    as for our "primary grant income",
 you have to believe that fusion is not a primary source
 of heat, within Earth, moving the system o'tectonics,
 as per the general paradigm per "currents in the solid mantle".
 isn't it also related to the question,
 Is travel in space possible (if not personally desireable) ??

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:28:30 -0700
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From:         Gregory Kellett <gkellett@MAILCITY.COM>
Organization: MailCity  (http://www.mailcity.com:80)
Subject:      Re: off the list
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--


>Please remove me from this list.
>Thank you.

Gregory Kellett
>


Now MailCity offers forwarding so you can check your MailCity messages and other e-mail all in one place.  Go to http://www.mailcity.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:55:02 -0700
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From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Comments: To: siegmund@thegrid.net
Comments: cc: _Synergetics List <synergetics-l@teleport.com>
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Mark,

Are you the same Mark Siegmund who taught at the Sierra University in
Southern California around 1985?  He was the Evolutionary Systems Design
coordinator.

Ref: http://members.tripod.com/~Tetworld/+index.html

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:09:54 GMT
Reply-To:     pcox4@bellsouth.net
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From:         Randy <pcox4@BELLSOUTH.NET>
Organization: Tension Structures
Subject:      Re: Another Bucky Siting!
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Lawrence E. Couey wrote:
>
> First Siting:
>
> David Brin's new book __Heaven's Reach__, has several references to
> Bucky and his work. Well, mostly to Bucky balls and fullerines (stupid
> spell-checker, has "bucky balls" but not fullerines ... ;-), and how
> they can be made to "do" many things by "incorporating" a differing atom
> at their centers.
>
> __Heaven's Reach__ is a ScFi book. It's the last of over half-a-dozen
> books on the future. Most of Brin's books are good ScFi.
>
> Second Siting:
> September's issue of __Popular Mechanics__ has 2 articles dealing with
> Bucky and/or his work(s).

Third siting:
The island of Skorpios in the Aegean...He's building dome homes for JFK,
Elvis, Frank Sinatra, and Generalissimo Franco....

>
> The first is in the "Technology Watch" section and is about a "EQR
> Biosphere", an earthquake resistant structure. It's a "near" Fly-eye
> dome inside of a Geodesic Sphere. No real mention of Bucky though.
>
> The second article is about a new idea in tents being developed by
> Sierra Designs. A Tensegrity Tent. The article actually begins with a
> quote from __Synergetics__, "The word 'tensegrity is an invention: ...".
> Good article. Short, but good.

Gee, and I've been designing tensegritic tents for years...
I'll have to check it out and see if it's a rip off of my patent
application....

>
> Lawrence C.
>
> Siting references to Bucky's work(s) is an exiting thing to me. It means
> that more people will (possible) ask questions that haven't been
> answered and will seek Bucky's ideas to build/discover solutions.
> --
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> Lawrence E. Couey
>  - Convivial Applied Theoretical Technologies/
>      FX Informationing
>  - mailto:LECouey@INet-1.com
> ---------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:24:10 -0600
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From:         Mark Somers <msomers@WTP.NET>
Subject:      Misc.
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Reg Monroe,

Very nice site, I can see there is a lot work there, a lot of creative
work at that.

Brian, why is it that Right wingers love Teller so much? I'm going to
take a wild guess and suggest that it's a good idea to support the
weapons designers that make the right wingers profits good and fat.

Is the show "Weaponeers", on PBS, if so I don't have access to a Public
Television station.

Also your Pugwash link doesn't work. You do make a good point, if I'm
reading you right, that a lot of people bash the nuclear industry as a
whole when it's the weapon makers who are really the ones that the
protesting is all about. I've found that many on the so called right and
left don't really have much, if any, grasp of nuclear science. And it
seems now that it was the US nuclear industry that self destructed more
than anything else, the French have been quite successful using nuclear
power.

In the long run though it'll be a matter of gathering the sun's energy
via solar etc. that will be used to power the activites of the
inhabitants of Earth.

Kirby I'm glad I could donate my time to put Amy Edmondson's book "A
Fuller Explanation" on the web.
http://www.angelfire.com/mt/marksomers/40.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 03:50:45 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Misc.

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      29-AUG-1998  3:50
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 Mark, Teller is no "rightwingnut", but a patriot;
 there have even been socialist patriots, by Jove,
 as with that French guy who was the only Euro
 who was trying to prevent WW1; he was assassinated, f'sure.
    yes, "The Weaponeers" is PBS, another
 of the Billions & Billions Productions (Sagan, and
 he went *totally* soft in the head, with Kontakt;
 I can just see, whole theaterfulls of Manchurian Candidates,
 waiting to be teed-off on virtually any given evening
 of listening to Art Bell, covering-up for Sir George and
 his "parallel. secret goment" and NWO and 1000 Motes o'Dark;
 what is in the Inner SAnctum, the Holy of Holies,
 the Ark in the Tabernacle?...  ta-da, Art's Parts:
 Ladies & Germs, *this* is Roswell -- we buh-LIEVE.

 whoo; is it possible to "flashforward" on LSD,
 taht I may ingest in "the" (or some other) future?...
 I'm going to avoid rotten rye like the plague, or worse!

 thus quoth:
  Also your Pugwash link doesn't work. You do make a good point, if I'm
  reading you right, that a lot of people bash the nuclear industry as a

 sorry, about that, but it was just from memeory;
 you'll have to just "go" to www.larouchepub.com, and
 scroll into the pile of articles,
 til you find "The Wells of Doom";
 that's Herbert George Wells, if you can dig that.
    now, you make a fine laudation of electricitie francaise,
 then you spout the typical, albeit Buckafkian, populism
 of l'income du Sol.  can't you just see Kirby,
 spinning his waterprayerwheel, sipping tea-time
 with His Maniacal Holiness, the Dalai Lama I-XIV;
 it *could* be extremely genteel.

 thus quoth:
  In the long run though it'll be a matter of gathering the sun's energy
  via solar etc. that will be used to power the activites of the
  inhabitants of Earth.

 --The Duke of Oil
 http://www.tarpley.net
 --The End Was Night!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:57:21 EDT
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From:         Fred Spykerman <Spyk111111@AOL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Misc.
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Don't know why, but I thought this list was for discussion of people
interested in Domes. I must have subscribed to something else. Can you direct
me to a list of Dome discussion. Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:04:22 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Misc.

MESSAGE from ="List 29-AUG-1998 11:34
 Don't know why, but I thought this list was for discussion of people
 interested in Domes. I must have subscribed to something else. Can you direct
 me to a list of Dome discussion. Thanks.
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      29-AUG-1998 12:04
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 listen, you parochial "I've got *my* dome on the range" type,
 the title is GEODESIC; dynamically,
 that is a *slalom*, akin to the *brachistochrone* or
 *tautochrone* -- least action, and ultimately,
 you'd think about boosting or braking into a differnt orbit
 (obit, in your case .-)
    in other words,
 it's the political economy, Stupid, and
 don't Bogart yo'brain on some Silly Plant!

 --The End Was Nigh!
 http://www.tarpley.net/bush23.htm
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1998 02:29:40 -0600
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From:         27 <dmullins@DOITNOW.COM>
Subject:      Re: Misc.
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hey Fred,  I agree with you, sounds like a bunch of over educated assholes
on this list.
I'm outta here too.

Sincerely Dissapointed,

Denny

----------
> From: Fred Spykerman <Spyk111111@AOL.COM>
> To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
> Subject: Re: Misc.
> Date: Saturday, August 29, 1998 7:57 AM
>
> Don't know why, but I thought this list was for discussion of people
> interested in Domes. I must have subscribed to something else. Can you
direct
> me to a list of Dome discussion. Thanks.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1998 17:19:50 +0800
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From:         xmd <xmd@PUBLIC.BTA.NET.CN>
Subject:      looking for co-operation
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

E-mail:xmd@public.bta.net.cn
Tel:08610-66715533-2126
Xiao shuiqing
President,Beijing XiaoMa Computer Institute,
No35,Huochang East Road Fengtai Dajie. Beijing 100071,China.
             LOOKING FOR CO-OPERATION
Dear Friend:
I am the inventer of xiaoma software(A new computer software for inputting
Chinese character)and my name's Xiao shuiqing.Using the Abrabic Numerals 0-9
Keyboard,You can input all the Chinese Characters into the computer easily.
The entry speed is very fast and that say you just need press 1.5 Keys
every Chinese character, even if you are primary grades' students. Moreover,
xiaoma'coding is utilited by the Phonetic letters and strokes of the Chinese
Characters.
According to the patent right and in order to feather develop my reseaches,
I have invented a lot of xiaoma Products. Such as Xiaoma 52 keys double
entry
keyboard computer, Chinese Character Mobile,Chinese-English Translation
Machine and Checking Machines.I can predict that when those computer
products
come to the Market, the computer market will be divided into two groups. One
is the Products based on the English characters, the others  based on
the Arabic Numerals, Xiaoma's Products for exmaple. All those advanced
products will be used firstly in many state departments, such as in the
banks,
Post offices, state defence and customs, Which all the office automatic
machines' keyboards are pressed by a hand. If possible,Xiaoma's Products
will
dominate the foreign computer market in the future.
Xiaoma technology have got the Chinese patent right. There are two great
devotions.First, xiaoma products have created the numeral attribute of the
Chinese character.Secondly, It has changed the histories of the computer.
In Seb.1992, I aquired the Outstanding Accomplishments Medal in developing
new compter technologies by Masaschusttes Acdemic Institute and the other
two communitiesin American Invention Exhibition. But the most exciting
things
that I was arrenged to visit the governor of Massachusettes state and the
article of the <<Boston Herald>> have made a coverage for my invention. In
1993, I was recorded in the book <<Who's Who of the Asian Pacific Rim>>by
BARONS WHO'S WHO.In 1996, the Chinese Central Publishing House's book
<<the Step of Giant>>coveraged my invention.
I have given you a rouph picture about my invention today,I hope we have
the opportunity to cooperate and to do businese.Thank you!

yours faithfully.
Xiao shuiqing

=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:20:16 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Misc.

MESSAGE from ="List 30-AUG-1998 11:38
 Hey Fred,  I agree with you, sounds like a bunch of over educated assholes
 on this list.
 I'm outta here too.

 Sincerely Dissapointed,

 Denny

 ----------
 > From: Fred Spykerman <Spyk111111@AOL.COM>
 > To: GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
 > Subject: Re: Misc.
 > Date: Saturday, August 29, 1998 7:57 AM
 >
 > Don't know why, but I thought this list was for discussion of people
 > interested in Domes. I must have subscribed to something else. Can you
 direct
 > me to a list of Dome discussion. Thanks.
- - - - -

<<REPLY from  >> Brian Hutchings                      30-AUG-1998 12:20
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 so sorry.  you can check Joe Moore's site,
 for other dome-related lists or newsgroups.  while
 I'm sorry that you-all are suvh pi-in-the-sky types,
 vis-a-vu the subject of political economy,
 upon which any gradation of "high tech" is dependent,
 you reserve the right to participate in the Great Panic,
 which my co-inky-dinkally preced the much-lauded year,
 2000.  in the words of Gauss,
 Mathematics is the Queen of the Sciences,
 which left unsaid the obvious, however sexist,
 as he is one of the primary authors of it,
 Political Economy is the King!

 --HyperNiceDay,bri
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:48:48 -0700
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From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>
Subject:      Geodesic Math and How To Ab/use It!

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      30-AUG-1998 13:48
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 so, Donny-dude, what kind of an "educated" does taht make, you?...
 it's a rhetorical question, man!

 thus quoth:
   Hey Fred,  I agree with you, sounds like a bunch of over educated assholes

 back on the subject of domes, although
 _Geodesic Math and How To Use It_ has some dyscussion of it,
 most people just knee-jerkedly choose the icosahedron,
 without ever exploring the other "omnitrigonated" shapes.
 I'm particulalry thinking of the problem of "add-ons"
 --which one of the listees had a great, 5-around-1 plan, although
 he may not have discerned teh complexities that are involved--
 although *vaults* are not a problem, in general
 (that's in _Geod.Math_, two .-)
    I think, we dyscussed on Syn-heL, that
 there's no inherent rea\son to merely "ground" the dome,
 that is to make Earth the "bottom" of it;
 you can make a full sphere, and dig that in, unless
 you wish to have the whole base of the dome,
 extending into a cylindrical basement.  any thoughts?
    next, I'd like to dyscuss some of those "key books",
 aside from _Geod.Math_ (apparently, though,
 there are a number of listees,
 who care neither for the underlaying geometry,
 the infrastructural requirement, or *any* thing,
 butt their "dome, dome on the range" !-)

 --A Thousands Dabs of Cynical ****
 http://www.tarpley.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:56:31 -0500
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From:         WSH <whausner@ITIS.COM>
Organization: IntraNet Inc: Madison, Wisconsin's ISP
Subject:      HOW TO TURN SIX DOLLARS INTO SIX THOUSAND:
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hey, Check this out,

HOW TO TURN SIX DOLLARS INTO SIX THOUSAND:

READING THIS COULD CHANGE YOUR LIFE! IT DOES WORK!

I found this on a bulletin board and decided to try it. A little
while back, I was browsing through newsgroups, just like you are now,
and came across an article similar to this that said you could make
thousands of dollars within weeks with only an initial investment of
$6.00! So I thought, "Yeah right, this must be a scam", but
like most of us, I was curious, so I kept reading. Anyway, it said
that you send $1.00 to each of the 6 names and address stated in the
article. You then place your own name and address in the bottom of
the list at #6, and post the article in at least 200 newsgroups.
(There are thousands) No catch, that was it. So after thinking it
over, and talking to a few people first, I thought about trying it. I
figured: "what have I got to lose except 6 stamps and $6.00,
right?" Then I invested the measly $6.00. Well GUESS WHAT!?...
within 7 days, I started getting money in the mail! I was shocked! I
figured it would end soon, but the money just kept coming in. In my
first week, I made about $25.00. By the end of the second week I had
made a total of over $1,000.00! In the third week I had over
$10,000.00 and it's still growing. This is now my fourth week and I
have made a total of just over $42,000.00 and it's still coming in
rapidly. It's certainly worth $6.00, and 6 stamps, I have spent more
than that on the lottery!! Let me tell you how this works and most
importantly, WHY it works... Also, make sure you print a copy of this
article NOW, so you can get the information off of it as you need it.
I promise you that if you follow the directions exactly, that you
will start making more money than you thought possible by doing
something so easy!

Suggestion: Read this entire message carefully! (print it out or
download it.) Follow the simple directions and watch the money come
in!

It's easy. It's legal. And, your investment is only $6.00 (Plus
postage)

IMPORTANT: This is not a rip-off; it is not indecent; it is not
illegal; and it is 99% no risk - it really works!

If all of the following instructions are adhered to, you will receive
extraordinary dividends.

PLEASE NOTE:
Please follow these directions EXACTLY, and $50,000 or more can be
yours in 20 to 60 days. This program remains successful because of
the honesty and integrity of the participants. Please continue its
success by carefully adhering to the instructions.

You will now become part of the Mail Order business. In this business
your product is not solid and tangible, it's a service. You are in
the business of developing Mailing Lists. Many large corporations are
happy to pay big bucks for quality lists. However, the money made
from the mailing lists is secondary to the income which is made from
people like you and me asking to be included in that list.

Here are the 4 easy steps to success:

STEP 1: Get 6 separate pieces of paper and write the following on
each piece of paper "PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR MAILING LIST." Now
get 6 US $1.00 bills and place ONE inside EACH of the 6 pieces of
paper so the bill will not be seen through the envelope (to prevent
thievery). Next, place one paper in each of the 6 envelopes and seal
them. You should now have 6 sealed envelopes, each with a piece of
paper stating the above phrase, your name and address, and a $1.00
bill. What you are doing is creating a service. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY
LEGAL! You are requesting a legitimate service and you are paying for
it! Like most of us I was a little skeptical and a little worried
about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S.
Post Office (1-800-725-2161) and they confirmed that it is indeed
legal. Mail the 6 envelopes to the following addresses:


#1) Jeff Brookman
3415 CoveredBridge Ln.
Charlotte, NC 28210

#2) Wit Wichaidit
10912 Broad Green Terrace
Potomac, MD 20854

#3) Mike Calhoon
727 Lakeview Dr.
Cortland,OH 44410

#4) Jody Goldner
955 N. 9th St.
Clinton, IN. 47842

#5) Kara Hopkins
P.O. Box 4684
Crofton, MD 21114

#6) W. Hausner
4312 Hillcrest Circle
Madison, WI 53705

STEP 2: Now take the #1 name off the list that you see above, move
the other names up (6 becomes 5, 5 becomes 4, etc...) and add YOUR
Name as number 6 on the list.

STEP 3: Change anything you need to, but try to keep this article as
close to original as possible. Now, post your amended article to at
least 200 newsgroups. (I think there are close to 24,000 groups) All
you need is 200, but remember, the more you post, the more money you
make! You won't get very much unless you post like crazy. :)

This is perfectly legal! If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18
Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the Postal lottery laws.
Keep a copy of these steps for yourself and, whenever you need money,
you can use it again, and again.

PLEASE REMEMBER that this program remains successful because of the
honesty and integrity of the participants and by their carefully
adhering to the directions. Look at it this way. If you are of
integrity, the program will continue and the money that so many
others have received will come your way.

NOTE: You may want to retain every name and address sent to you,
either on a computer or hard copy and keep the notes people send you.
This VERIFIES that you are truly providing a service. (Also, it might
be a good idea to wrap the $1 bill in dark paper to reduce the risk
of mail theft.)

So, as each post is downloaded and the directions carefully followed,
six members will be reimbursed for their participation as a List
Developer with one dollar each. Your name will move up the list
geometrically so that when your name reaches the #1 position you will
be receiving thousands of dollars in CASH!!! What an opportunity for
only $6.00 ($1.00 for each of the first six people listed above) Send
it now, add your own name to the list and you're in business!

---DIRECTIONS ----- FOR HOW TO POST TO NEWSGROUPS------------

Step 1) You do not need to re-type this entire letter to do your own
posting. Simply put your cursor at the beginning of this letter and
drag your cursor to the bottom of this document, and select 'copy'
from the edit menu. This will copy the entire letter into the
computer's memory.
Step 2) Open a blank 'notepad' file and place your cursor at the top
of the blank page. From the 'edit' menu select 'paste'. This will
paste a copy of the letter into notepad so that you can add your name
to the list. Step 3) Save your new notepad file as a .txt file. If
you want to do your postings in different settings, you'll always
have this file to go back to.
Step 4) Use Netscape or Internet explorer and try searching for
various newsgroups (on-line forums, message boards, chat sites,
discussions.)
Step 5) Visit these message boards and post this article as a new
message by highlighting the text of this letter and selecting paste
from the edit menu. Fill in the Subject, this will be the header that
everyone sees as they scroll through the list of postings in a
particular group, click the post message button. You're done with
your first one! Congratulations...THAT'S IT! All you have to do is
jump to different newsgroups and post away, after you get the hang of
it, it will take about 30 seconds for each newsgroup! **REMEMBER, THE
MORE NEWSGROUPS YOU POST IN, THE MORE MONEY YOU WILL MAKE! BUT YOU
HAVE TO POST A MINIMUM OF 200** That's it! You will begin receiving
money from around the world within days! You may eventually want to
rent a P.O.Box due to the large amount of mail you will receive. If
you wish to stay anonymous, you can invent a name to use, as long as
the postman will deliver it. **JUST MAKE SURE ALL THE ADDRESSES ARE
CORRECT.**

Now the WHY part:
Out of 200 postings, say I receive only 5 replies (a very low
example). So then I made $5.00 with my name at #6 on the letter. Now,
each of the 5 persons who just sent me $1.00 make the MINIMUM 200
postings, each with my name at #5 and only 5 persons respond to each
of the original 5, that is another $25.00 for me, now those 25 each
make 200 MINIMUM posts with my name at #4 and only 5 replies each, I
will bring in an additional $125.00! Now, those 125 persons turn
around and post the MINIMUM 200 with my name at #3 and only receive 5
replies each, I will make an additional $625.00! OK, now here is the
fun part, each of those 625 persons post a MINIMUM 200 letters with
my name at #2 and they each only receive 5 replies, that just made me
$3,125.00!!! Those 3,125 persons will all deliver this message to 200
newsgroups with my name at #1 and if still 5 persons per 200
newsgroups react I will receive $15,625,00! With an original
investment of only $6.00! AMAZING! When your name is no longer on the
list, you just take the latest posting in the newsgroups, and send
out another $6.00 to names on the list, putting your name at number 6
again. And start posting again. The thing to remember is: do you
realize that thousands of people all over the world are joining the
internet and reading these articles everyday?, JUST LIKE YOU are
now!! So, can you afford $6.00 and see if it really works?? I think
so... People have said, "what if the plan is played out and no
one sends you the money? So what! What are the chances of that
happening when there are tons of new honest users and new honest
people who are joining the internet and newsgroups everyday and are
willing to give it a try? Estimates are at 20,000 to 50,000 new
users, every day, with thousands of those joining the actual
internet. Remember, play FAIRLY and HONESTLY and this will really
work.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:06:02 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Brian Hutchings <r001806@PEN2.CI.SANTA-MONICA.CA.US>

<<MESSAGE from>> Brian Hutchings                      31-AUG-1998  4:06
                 r001806@pen2.ci.santa-monica.ca.us

 don't get me wrong; I *love* the dodecagon (icosahedron),
 in particular.  however,
 even in such a limited configuration as "5 around 1",
 it is not commeasurable, and'd require some tweaking -- and
 there are probably some "elegant" tweakings to make (for instance,
 the placement of openings in _Geod.Math_ may be a place to start;
 of course, edge-edge bondings of dodecaga (icosahedra) *do*
 make nice, rectalinear arrays, which with interpenetration'd provide
 for strict modularity, if such is satisfactory;
 can you think of any particualr use?...  I have not.
    this "5-fold" property, lack of packing,
 was known to Kepler, and maybe Durer, in the plane (or
 cross-section of the solids),
 what we today call aperiodical packing, or quasicrystalization.

 --call your Senators, ask them
 to support the Citizens Protection Act (HR#3396)
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1998 08:40:27 -0700
Reply-To:     List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
Sender:       List for the discussion of Buckminster Fuller's works
              <GEODESIC@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         Joe S Moore <joemoore@CRUZIO.COM>
Comments: To: Mark Siegmund <siegmund@thegrid.net>
In-Reply-To:  <v01541100b20d85fb2c97@[209.162.31.101]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mark,

It's great to connect with you again! I only volunteered for the BFI for
three years--from mid '83 thru mid '86.

I don't have any specific tetrahedron web sites to recommend at this time,
but if you do a search for "tetrahedron" you should find what you're looking
for--especially at geometry sites and the online version of 'Synergetics'.

Joe

Joe S Moore joemoore@cruzio.com
Buckminster Fuller Virtual Institute
http://www.cruzio.com/~joemoore/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Siegmund [mailto:siegmund@thegrid.net]
> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 1998 10:25 AM
> To: Joe S Moore
> Subject: Re:
>
> Joe, I have just visited your splendid virtual institute--Kudos Grandes!
I
> will return often.
>
> I've recently posted a site (very much in development) version of
> the world game called tetworld at:
>
http://members.tripod.com/~Tetworld/+index.html

I am using the tetrahedron for the "gameboard".

I am a novitiate in all things internet--and am searching for downloadable
tetrahedron diagrams, figures, graphics that I may insert appropriately
into the body of the text, and, be able to edit (the tet) to show system
descriptors at vertexes and along edges.  Can you refer me to
possibilities?

Thanks,
until later,
Mark